Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.
ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc Hey, cool. This is fun. Can we all join in? cheers Richard Fairhurst, MA (Cantab) -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/License-CT-issues-Let-s-not-punish-the-world-s-disadvantaged-pls-tp6504931p6508428.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.
Nic Roets wrote: But I also don't know why you three compare the license change to ordinary democratic processes. It's much closer to what's been happening in the Arab States this year. ticks off 'Godwin' on the Hyperbole Bingo card cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/License-CT-issues-Let-s-not-punish-the-world-s-disadvantaged-pls-tp6504931p6510026.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.
John Smith wrote: Unlikely, maps were the first thing to be protected under copyright Um, no. The first thing to be protected by copyright was an Old Irish psalter. Is and gabais Fergus dóib daur mór ro-boí for lár ind liss assa frénaib, etc. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/License-CT-issues-Let-s-not-punish-the-world-s-disadvantaged-pls-tp6504931p6510149.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.
80n wrote: The one exception is currently Potlatch which is embedded and obviously displays map content. Because Potlatch is embedded, you are encouraged to put any copyright notices you wish in the embedding page. :) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/License-CT-issues-Let-s-not-punish-the-world-s-disadvantaged-pls-tp6504931p6513157.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Multiple versions of same node in changeset
M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: Yes, but is there a point of doing this within the same changeset? Yes, of course there is. If you're using an online editor you should save early and save often. When the user chooses to start/finish a changeset has no bearing on that. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Multiple-versions-of-same-node-in-changeset-tp6515184p6517120.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
SimonPoole wrote: there is a fair chance that either the data could be relicensed under CC-by (which might be compatible with the ODbL) Absolutely. The Australian government data is CC-BY already (I'm not sure where this idea it's CC-BY-SA comes from). Negotiating compatibility with ODbL need not be difficult. I'm interested that they have a clear statement (on the ausgoal website Brendan cited) that Generally, copyright does not protect mere facts. ;) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Hitting-reset-on-talk-au-tp6569961p6571572.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
John Smith wrote: Unless you plan to enforce attribution as a minimum for produced works I'm not quite sure what I've done to deserve this Groundhog Day treatment and be condemned to relive the same mailing list postings again and again. 4.3 You must include a notice associated with the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under this License Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au
Frederik Ramm wrote: I must congratulate David on his decision. [...] If any of you, at any time, feel that they seriously wish someone else in the project to burn in hell; if you can't sleep because someone was wrong on the mailing list; if you're thinking of ways to take revenge on the guy who reverted your wiki edit - if any of that happens, then the project has clearly failed to deliver the fun it promised, and it is time to move on. Life is just too short! Agreed 100%. That's why I started the Going separate ways thread: there's no point in all this gut-wrenching when plenty of alternatives are now available. Just find the one that suits your beliefs and enjoy contributing to it, rather than being miserable within OSM. I hope David enjoys FOSM or CommonMap. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Hitting-reset-on-talk-au-tp6569961p6578539.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Orphaned Relations
Richard Mann wrote: Now there was me thinking it was just a Potlatch problem. I'll delete my 5 as soon as P2 has the facility (and I can find it). You can delete a relation in P2 by selecting it in the Advanced view (which means you'll have to have selected a member of that relation, of course) and choosing 'Delete relation' in the little pop-up menu next to it. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Orphaned-Relations-tp6592813p6594275.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Orphaned Relations
Sarah Hoffmann wrote: I don't know about forbitting orphaned relations but it would certainly be helpful if the editors would show a big red warning sign if somebody tries to upload an empty relation. No. That would be entirely disproportionate. Empty relations don't do anyone any harm. Big red warnings put off novice users. If you really care about empty relations, you are welcome to submit a patch to P2 that automatically deletes relations when they're set to 0 members (and undeletes them if you undo that action), of course! cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Orphaned-Relations-tp6592813p6594281.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Orphaned Relations
Sarah Hoffmann wrote: Wouldn't it be much easier to silently delete all empty relations when uploading the data? From a user point of view the result should be the same and you don't have to mess around with undo. It would certainly be easier, but I don't believe it's the Right Way To Do It. Conceptually, the upload code should simply get the 'dirty' elements from P2's internal storage, and upload them. I don't like to put any additional logic into the upload code. Further discussion of this point probably belongs on potlatch-dev@. :) cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Whitelisting (Re: Data reconciliation. Removing CT/ODbL declined users.)
Toby Murray wrote: User balrog-kun has explicitly declined the license. He ran a bot that expanded abbreviations in TIGER street names in the western US which means that virtually every named street west of the Mississippi shows up as tainted in P2. *BUT* He has explicitly stated multiple times that he intends for these bot edits to be relicensed under ODbL. So if balrog-kun is the only declining user to have touched a road, there is no need to replace it. We could, I think, do with a public whitelist of such cases. It could encompass situations such as balrog-kun's, where (AIUI) all his edits within a certain bbox are relicensable. It could also list those few users who have declined the Contributor Terms, but who have also publicly stated that they claim no rights in their contributions and therefore are happy for them to be relicensed. TimSC is perhaps the most obvious example, and I think someone mentioned Florian Lohoff too. The ODBL coverage map ( http://osm.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/ map/ ) takes this into account but P2 does not. P2 just displays whatever WTFE (http://wtfe.gryph.de/) tells it. Any issue needs to be solved at the WTFE level. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Data-reconciliation-Removing-CT-ODbL-declined-users-tp6603496p6605728.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above. Indeed. In British English orthography, Saint in place and streetnames is always written as St. (It's not such an anomaly: Mrs as an honorific is never expanded, either.) Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an a in it, not a ∡. ;) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6622504.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Frederik Ramm wrote: Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who would try to grab attention with ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ or something. Oh, we really should produce a map which renders the name High Street as H16H 5tr33t, etc. It could be called Open1337Map. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6623367.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
andrzej zaborowski wrote: I'd say the opposite is true. If it's pronounced Saint Albans then that is the name. Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead. :) Increasingly you can treat St as a valid spelling of the word saint, rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English speaker would write a placename with 'Saint', and every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty conclusive argument that we should tag St. (I'm only talking about the UK, of course, and in fact this discussion would be better on talk-gb.) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6625525.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
John Smith wrote: The person that started this thread is in New Zealand... ...and started it with the comment does anyone here know what st albans in uk is actually called then?. Robin has also mapped parts of Britain - such as Repton, not far from where I'm sitting now. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
John Smith wrote: The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period. Not in British English, it isn't. _Saint._ St or S. is better than St. for the abbreviation (see PERIOD IN ABBR.); Pl. Sts or SS. That's from Fowler's Modern English Usage, which is as close as there is to an authority in British English style. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6625848.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Steve Doerr wrote: I once heard of a radio presenter who read out a request from someone living in 'Bewry Street Edmunds'! Eeeek. /me goes off to add not_name=Loogabarooga cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6630080.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Frederik Ramm wrote: Which brings me back to something I mentioned earlier - I would like to have some kind of link server where you can go and say I want a permanent link to this OSM object, then the server says ok, I have investigated the object you mentioned and I'd say I make the permanent link point to 'a restaurant named Chez John within 500 metres of this location', is that ok, and you go yes, and the server then says your permanent link ID is 1234567890, thank you. At any later time you can query the server for that permanent link ID and you get back either the OSM object, or the current OSM object ID, or nothing if the link is broken. Yes. Absolutely spot on. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Blatant-case-of-tagging-for-the-renderer-tp6633546p6644269.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Gregor Horvath wrote: OSM provides uri's to ID's which are linked to names of physical objects. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1381574156 No. It doesn't. OSM does not provide URIs to anyone. OSM has an _editing_ API. It's here to facilitate edits to the end product, which is a collaborative map. The IDs are an internal convenience for editing - internal, that is to the OSM editing experience. They are not an outward-facing product that is provided to all-comers. The editing API is provided in order to edit the map data, not for read-only purposes or projects. (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Blatant-case-of-tagging-for-the-renderer-tp6633546p6645068.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Combined bicycle footway
Tomas Straupis wrote: I would like such combined ways to indicate that they are created for BOTH cyclists and walkers (especially then this would include segregated ones). They do indicate that. That's what the blue dots mean. A better suggestion would be show a different rendering for those cycleways where walking is not permitted. Though I honestly don't know whether there are enough of these, worldwide, to merit further cluttering up the map (after all, simplicity is a virtue). Perhaps one for a country-specific rendering on a local site? cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Combined-bicycle-footway-tp6706463p6708236.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Combined bicycle footway
[cc:ed to tagging@, suggest follow-ups go there] Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: +1, in Germany or Italy you will hardly find any place where a pedestrian can't pass but a cyclist can. There will be either a combined or segregated foot/cycleway instead of a bicycles only cycleway. On the contrary there are much more places where pedestrians get precedence over cyclists (e.g. narrow spots will most probably get something like cyclists dismount!) You mean like this? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/September2007.htm :) The whole highway=cycleway farrago is another sad indictment of the wiki tagging mess. It originally meant bikes and pedestrians (as you'd expect for a tagging scheme devised in the UK), then someone took it on themselves to change the docs without telling anyone. Consequently which you use basically depends on whether you, or the author of the tools/documentation you use, read the wiki before or after. I could see some benefit to splitting the tag into two - say, highway=cycle for bikes only, highway=cycle+foot for bikes and pedestrians - and doing (whisper it) a mass change along country lines. Unlike the highway=trunk/primary/secondary country defaults, which are a sensible response to having to tag minutiae, the current situation with highway=cycleway helps neither mappers nor data consumers. (And no, not the horrible user-hostile highway=path scheme.) cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [osmf-talk] Membership applications from Skobbler employees
[apologies for posting to talk rather than osmf-talk - very bizarrely, I appear to have been *un*subscribed from osmf-talk upon renewing my membership. Go figure. :) For those not following, the issue is the application of a large number of Skobbler employees to join OSMF, shortly before the OSMF elections. It has been suggested this would mean that ~65 of the total OSMF membership were Skobbler employees. Full thread at http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2011-August/date.html] Serge Wroclawski wrote: I can't speak to the specifics of this situation; I don't know the individuals, or the company involved, but I will say that on the surface, it would seem that this company has chosen a path which has ruffled some feathers, and I'd hope that this thread acts as a message to it and other companies to be sensitive in how they interact with the foundation, and the community, and to be concious of how their actions, whatever the intent, may appear. +1. In my experience (outside OSM) there are three reasons for anyone to join a membership organisation such as OSMF: a) to gain a vote in the affairs of the organisation; b) to financially support the aims of the organisation; c) to receive member-only benefits. In the particular case of OSMF, a company can achieve (b) by making a donation (via http://donate.openstreetmap.org/ or direct to the foundation), and indeed this is more effective as it doesn't incur the overheads of membership. It's a well-established route: Google famously, and generously, gave £5,000 in a recent donations drive. That leaves (a) or (c). For (c), the only OSMF member-only benefit, as I understand it, is reduced admission to the State of the Map. It's very possible that Skobbler has signed its employees up to OSMF because it's planning to fly them all over to Denver and this works out cheaper. (Personally I would have thought that sponsoring SotM, as Mapquest, Bing, ESRI, Waze et al are doing, would have been more cost-effective as presumably sponsors receive a discount on admission, but I don't know this for sure.) Or (a), to gain a vote in the affairs of the organisation. Serge makes a distinction between impropriety and the appearance of impropriety, and Steve has alluded to the reaction when many Cloudmade employees joined - I think you have to look at this in the context of the last time a company paid for its employees to become members. There is no evidence of any impropriety; the risk is an appearance of impropriety. The question how will this play on Slashdot? is not a bad one to ask. Oliver Kuhn, Chief Commercial Officer of Skobbler, is of course already on the OSMF board and has posted that he personally believes OSM should concentrate on the needs of data consumers like his (http://www.abalakov.com/openstreetmap-map-data-who-cares), steering contributors towards projects such as addressing (http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-July/051511.html), and that it could consider weakening the share-alike clause (http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2010-June/003398.html). Again, there's no suggestion that Oliver has been using his OSMF position to push these aims, and I'm sure he wouldn't. The risk is the appearance of impropriety in a situation summed up as the Skobbler CCO is on the OSMF board; the Skobbler CCO wants OSM to concentrate on the sort of data used by his company; Skobbler has paid for its employees to join OSMF such that they now form a large bloc. To avoid this appearance of impropriety, I think it would have been better for Skobbler to instead either make a donation to OSMF or sponsor SotM. But, again, there's nothing in the Articles preventing them from signing up 65 members; if they want to, they're perfectly entitled to. For the avoidance of doubt, I believe commercial support for OSM is a good thing and am not arguing against it. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Refusing CT but declaring contributions as PD
Richard Weait wrote: OSMF have permission to publish data as CC-By-SA, and in future from most contributors as ODbL. OSMF have no permission to publish data as PD at this time. TIGER PD data came from PD TIGER data sources. If the usernames in question have a PD source for the data that they assert is PD, we might use that as a source for OSM. If that data is only in OSM, it isn't PD; it is CC-By-SA. It can be promoted to ODbL by way of accepting CT/ODbL. Ok. I now see where you're coming from, but I think you're mistaken. I am, at present, entitled to re-extract my own data from OSM and distribute it under any terms I like. (When I say my own data I mean the data which is entirely my own contributions, i.e. not derivative of any other source. For example, any version-1 elements in one of my changesets, where I was not using an external source.) The reason I can do this is because CC-BY-SA (a) does not cover database rights, and (b) does not have a contractual element. Copyright is the only right involved, and I retain that in my own data. OSMF has not changed the data I have contributed (other than renumbering ids, which is clearly insubstantial). Therefore neither OSMF, nor anyone else, gains any copyright over the data. I am still at liberty to do what I want with it. (I will not be able to do this under ODbL+CT, but that's immaterial to this discussion.) So if I disclaim all rights in this contribution, OSMF (or anyone else) _can_ distribute it under ODbL, or CC-BY-SA, or any licence they like. The second aspect of the question is what this means for things that are not my own data. That is, my contributions which build on the work of others (e.g. v2+ of objects). There is no reason to treat this differently from our general approach with the ODbL transition. If I have moved a node (to v3, say, where v1 and v2 were contributed by people who have assented to the CT), and if I disclaim all rights in my contribution, then the logic works as above. The third aspect is objects traced from, say, Bing or OS OpenData, which (especially in the latter case) have some associated rights. What we call (for convenience) PD declarations are actually I claim no rights in this data - not there are no rights in this data. I don't think (for example) that TimSC is claiming that his OS-derived edits are free of rights; clearly they aren't. However, LWG has already declared that if data is compatible with *current* license terms, then there is no problem contributing it. This was the issue on which Robert Whittaker's acceptance hung (and has subsequently been endorsed by OSMF Board). With this, and as envisaged in CT 1b, OSMF has taken on the responsibility (in the event of a future licence change) of identifying contributions that are no longer compatible, and deleting them. In other words, if the contribution is compatible with ODbL, as OS- and Bing-derived submissions are, there are no grounds to refuse it from the ODbL database. Of course, my personal viewpoint is roughly akin to Simon's in terms of lakes and jumping, or perhaps the old slogan of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation involving pigs, heads, and sticking. But the aim is not to get Tim and Florian and the like to be bit-part players in an episode of You've Been Framed. Rather, we are trying to ensure that the best possible database is carried over into the ODbL-licensed OSM. We do not have to slavishly agree with those whose wishes are against the vast majority, but if they are willing to move a little way towards us (as I think Tim eventually did), I don't want to erect barriers that aren't there. I will argue for years in favour of ODbL, and have gradually been persuaded of the need of the CTs, but I'm slowly (and very belatedly) learning to leave my pride at the door where licences are concerned, and I hope others can too. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-Refusing-CT-but-declaring-contributions-as-PD-tp6720256p6720754.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to start to remove non-CT compliant data..
[follow-ups should be to legal-talk yadda yadda] Russ Nelson wrote: What about the people who didn't agree to the CT, but whose data is in the public domain? See http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2011-August/006608.html et seq. Given that LWG doesn't appear to be changing its IMO daft stance that a user placing their data in the public domain is not good enough for us, I am seriously tempted to delete and reimport TimSC's data[1] under my own account, and say it's good enough for me, it's PD, and I've agreed to the CTs. You have a problem with that?. cheers Richard [1] the stuff that people have built useful stuff on, that is. I doubt anyone would miss the random landuse ;) -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/How-to-start-to-remove-non-CT-compliant-data-tp6744723p6745823.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to start to remove non-CT compliant data..
Ed Avis wrote: Why not do what Wikipedia did and work together with the licence authors (in this case Creative Commons and Open Data Commons) to provide an automatic upgrade clause? Then nothing need be deleted. I expressly asked this a couple of years ago: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2009-February/001971.html and was told no: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2009-February/001982.html cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/How-to-start-to-remove-non-CT-compliant-data-tp6744723p6746371.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] satellite Imagery missing
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: 90% of my mapping is in such areas - gps, josm and repeated visits to the area are needed. Camera and laser range finder are a plus. JOSM is absolutely not needed for GPS surveying - you can use it if you like, but I do pretty much all my mapping in Potlatch with GPS traces rather than Bing. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/satellite-Imagery-missing-tp6796544p6815403.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Helping mappers feel comfortable about their contributions / quality control
Tim Waters (chippy) wrote: I also think that a voluntary opt-in review system would work - and only really needs someone to write one, and a JOSM plugin, and a Potlatch 2 patch. I'll very happily patch P2, assuming the please review functionality can be built into the core Rails site. (OSM doesn't, and P2 shouldn't, depend on third party-hosted services.) This would also fit in well with the proposed integration of OWL to give a better idea of which changesets affect which areas. (Suggest follow-ups to the rails-dev@ mailing list - sorry, would cross-post but Nabble doesn't give that option.) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Helping-mappers-feel-comfortable-about-their-contributions-quality-control-tp6812381p6835623.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Helping mappers feel comfortable about their contributions / quality control
Gregory wrote: How would the reviewer be selected? Why do you need to select a reviewer? The OWL-powered changeset listing could highlight those changesets where review has been requested. Experienced mappers browsing the recent changes (as experienced mappers do) would see these, and contact the newbie mapper with help or comments. When the newbie is happy with the help they've received, they could click a button to say I'm happy, this no longer needs review and the highlight would stop showing. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Helping-mappers-feel-comfortable-about-their-contributions-quality-control-tp6812381p6835738.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch2 missing?
John Sturdy wrote: Could the site put up a message if the wrong version of flash is running? Yep, Grant is working on upgrading us to swfobject 2.x (the Flash embedding code) which gives auto-upgrade and all sorts of wondrous stuff. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Potlatch2-missing-tp6851252p6851427.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fixme: A proposal
Kev js1982 wrote: Whats the best way of finding these, the only one i have seen is the ito analysis but they dont offer zooming in :-( OSM Inspector is very good. And hopefully Frederik will be along in a minute to tell you how to use it from within Potlatch. :) Until then - http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/ cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Fixme-A-proposal-tp6853578p6854522.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming dispute over Jerusalem - OSM failure
Serge Wroclawski wrote: I'm writing this response for two reasons. First, because I want you, Dimka, and the rest of the Israeli community to read it. You're not representing your side very well based on the forums. For reference, the thread cited is here: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=13178 cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Naming-dispute-over-Jerusalem-OSM-failure-tp6860427p6861557.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fixme: A proposal
Pieren wrote: More in general, I don't like mappers adding manually tons of 'FIXME' tags because they don't know or remember or are too lazy to check again. This a way to say 'pff, I'm tired now. So please, the next person checking this area, finish my work in priority. If you don't know, then just sh*t *p. This tag is only really acceptable as a temporary personal reminder. Nonsense. If I'm going for a 12-mile country walk, as Anna and I did on Sunday, I'll see other footpaths branching off along the way. I guess there's three things I could do. a) Ooh! Look! New footpath! Let's turn right and follow it. Yes, I know it won't get us to where we were going to go. Yes, I know we'll end up covering all 98712300 miles of footpath in Britain if we do this. Yes, I know we won't get home in time for dinner. Yes, I know you've got to go to work tomorrow. Yes, I will expect my divorce papers in the post. b) Ignore it. LALALALALA I didn't see that footpath. What footpath? There was no footpath. If someone wants to come back to this area and survey a missing footpath or two, well, they can guess where they might be. Stuff 'em. Mappers should suffer like I had to back in 2005 when we had a Java applet that took 27 minutes to add one node. Tsk, the kids of today. c) Add a short stub and fixme=incomplete. That way, if someone else is planning a nice country walk in the area, they can try to follow that footpath (hey, maybe it joins up with the fixme a mile to the north) rather than the one that's already mapped. So I'll go for (a), obviously, because I don't want to be seen as lazy in the eyes of the awesome talk@ mailing list. I'm guessing you're not married, are you, Pieren? Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Fixme-A-proposal-tp6853578p6861644.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fixme: A proposal
Pieren wrote: d) Add a short stub tagged highway=path You can't tell without a fixme whether something is a stub because it's incomplete, or because it really is like that. Example: http://osm.org/go/eutFfSar-- . That looks very much like a stub because bridleways don't peter out in the middle of nowhere. Surely it requires resurvey? Except this one... genuinely does peter out. I just guess that the next mapper will compare the present data with its own survey It's great that you have so many mappers that you can rely on footfall alone to guarantee completeness. Footpaths in remote rural areas aren't like that. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Fixme-A-proposal-tp6853578p6861968.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenMaps App Blocked By OpenStreetMap
Zsombor Szabó wrote: This way browsing and bulk downloading users can clearly be identified on the server side and throttled or banned if necessary. It's good that you're making changes, but there's two misapprehensions that need clearing up. Firstly, our sysadmins are unpaid volunteers who are already busy enough maintaining OSM's servers for mappers. They do not have the time to repeatedly identify and block individual users. As a result, individual apps (like OpenMaps) can be expected to be uniformly blocked if the behaviour or sheer number of their users is causing a problem. Secondly, the tile usage policy does _not_ say if you use proper headers, don't download in bulk, and avoid z17-19, you'll be ok. It says you must use proper headers, must not download in bulk, and must avoid z17-19 - but even that does not automatically mean your app is ok. As the Heavy Users section explains, apps that generate significant traffic must use another provider and may be blocked without notice, even if they fulfil the above requirements. Please bear in mind that, even if we wanted to offer free tiles to every commercial app in the world, our hosts would not permit us to do so. Nor is it OSM's role to give OpenMaps a competitive advantage by providing it with a free server when (for example) the OffMaps developers offer similar apps but pay for their own servers. (Of course, if any individuals wanted to start a project to provide such a free tile server, I'm sure it would be very popular.) Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OpenMaps-App-Blocked-By-OpenStreetMap-tp6872391p6872589.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF to provide commercial tile service? [WAS: something else]
Serge Wroclawski wrote: I go back to my central point: We're spending a lot of time blocking people and explaining to people why they're blocked. Let's find a way to turn this adversarial relationship into a cooperative one. Do you have a suggestion on how to do this? I do. If I read you right, you think there should be an open to all tileserver whose proceeds are fed back to the project. We agree that's not going to happen with the existing servers (because we don't have spare capacity) or the existing sysadmins (because we don't have spare capacity) or the existing hosting (because we can't resell the bandwidth). So you, Serge Wroclawski, should do it. Set up osmtileserver.org. Beg, borrow or steal some boxes, or simply take a punt with EC2. Recruit like-minded souls to your cause. Get a basic tileserver running. Approach one of the blocked app authors and say hey, I think you might be interested in this. And, when you make your first profit that goes beyond what you need to reinvest, send a cheque to OSMF. It's not going to happen unless someone takes the bit between their teeth and does it, and thus far you're the person best qualified (in enthusiasm and technical knowledge) to do so. You don't need OSMF approval to run a non-profit-making service, using OSM community members and OSM community-developed tools, based on OSM data, that feeds its proceeds back to OSMF. OSMF will happily accept donations from anyone. If you really want some form of official endorsement then go talk to OSMF-US, but I don't think it's necessary. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSMF-to-provide-commercial-tile-service-WAS-something-else-tp6874406p6884317.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Yahoo Imagery
Ilya Zverev wrote: Hi! A month ago we said bye to Yahoo imagery due to the shutting down of some of their services. But it is still available in both Potlatch versions. As Tom says, the situation with permission has not changed either way. Yahoo have slightly extended the switch-off period because some other users of their Maps API requested it: A few remaining customers have requested additional time to switch over to new APIs and then the service will be shut down... We anticipate this will be completed sometime later this year. (http://blog.programmableweb.com/2011/09/22/yahoo-maps-watch-life-support-may-continue-through-2011/) Given that there are a few small areas of the world covered by Yahoo imagery but not Bing, I've not been in a hurry to remove it from P2. This may still happen before the eventual closure but, regardless, I don't have any plans to alter the P1 code, so that at least will still be running until they finally switch the Yahoo servers off. Or we switch P1 off. ;) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Yahoo-Imagery-tp6907652p6907856.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] cycle.travel bike routing for Western Europe
Hi all, I'm really pleased to announce that http://cycle.travel/ now has OSM-based cycle routing for Western Europe: France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Austria, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the UK and Ireland. You can try it here: http://cycle.travel/map and if you log in, you can save/share your planned routes (and change your user preferences from miles to km ). It's built with (patched) OSRM and a complex custom profile. It takes account of elevation, cycle routes, surface quality and more. All routes are fully draggable and you can export to GPX, TCX, and PDF. The cartography is specially designed for the site. == Routing details == If it doesn't follow a route you'd expect it to take, this is usually because surface tags are missing. For example, at http://cycle.travel/map?lat=50.0181lon=2.0333zoom=15, the canalside path is tagged as 'highway=path' with no surface tags. cycle.travel assumes that paths in rural areas have poor quality surfaces, so will try not to route along them. Adding a 'surface=gravel' to this path, which the aerial imagery suggests, will make the router like it. (Access tags are also good.) == Miscellaneous notes == - The tileserver is a little slow - please be gentle! - There are occasional inconsistencies in the tiles - old styles that haven't refreshed yet. - You can't route between the UK and mainland Europe (there's a big lake in the way. Only Chris Froome is allowed to cycle through the tunnel and look how far it got him) - I'm planning on weekly updates but it'll be less often at first. - Known issue with highway=trunk, bicycle=yes getting undue prominence. - Known issue with fahrradstrassen/fietsstraten not being prioritised. Still lots to improve but I hope you like it - and, as ever, thanks to all the mappers who have contributed all the lovely data. You can post comments/bugs/suggestions at http://cycle.travel/forum/2 . cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] cycle.travel bike routing for Western Europe
Maarten Deen wrote: It's nice and fast! But it is not really apt in finding shortest or quickest routes. I entered my daily commute (from 51.3207,5.9888 to 51.5428,5.9827, permalink does not work properly) and it comes with a (for me new) route of 18.3 miles (=29.45 km) in 2:02. If I move the route to what I actually do, I get 17.9 miles and 1:59. And there are no paths or tracks in either route. The route it chooses has an off-road cycleway for more of the route (all the way to Eijkenhofweg) and then highway=unclassified (Steegse Peelweg), whereas the 17.9-mile route has more highway=tertiary (Loorban and Veulenseweg). In general cycle.travel prefers a balanced route using traffic-free and quiet roads, rather than just trying to find the shortest or quickest route along busier roads. Of course, it would be good if we tagged average motor traffic levels on roads. :) and if you log in, you can save/share your planned routes (and change your user preferences from miles to km ). Do you really have to create an account just for that? Miles is a very UK and US thing, it is not used anywhere on mainland europe. Can't you just use km when you plan a route on mainland europe or set a cookie? Oh absolutely, I just haven't had time to do that yet. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/cycle-travel-bike-routing-for-Western-Europe-tp5811759p5811765.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] cycle.travel bike routing for Western Europe
Maarten Deen wrote: So, can't I just ask shortest or quickest road? As you say, the router has no idea about traffic levels. I mean, if a router can't give me either shortest or quickest, then I always think I get some random route that is not optimal in any aspect. Nope, it doesn't and won't do that I'm afraid. If you want the shortest, quickest route, which presupposes that you're happy cycling along busy main roads, this isn't the router for you. cycle.travel is designed for people who want a more leisurely and enjoyable ride. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/cycle-travel-bike-routing-for-Western-Europe-tp5811759p5811790.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] cycle.travel bike routing for Western Europe
colliar wrote: 1. How are separate drawn cycleways next to roads handled ? It prefers cycleways to roads, so it'll usually route via the cycleways (assuming they're properly connected). 2. Neither traffic_light/crossing nor shape turns are evaluated. There's a routing penalty for traffic lights. Not sure what you mean by shape turns - can you explain? 3. I would like to show you some examples but I did not find any link/shortlink feature. Are gpx tracks any help ? You can log into the site and save routes that way - that's probably the best way! cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/cycle-travel-bike-routing-for-Western-Europe-tp5811759p5811796.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] cycle.travel bike routing for Western Europe
sabas88 wrote: it looks really nice! Thanks! :) One quick note, it's possible to have routes (also) in metric units? Yep, definitely. I'm working on making it the default for Europe but, for now, you can log in and set your user profile to prefer kilometres. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/cycle-travel-bike-routing-for-Western-Europe-tp5811759p5811797.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] cycle.travel bike routing for Western Europe
I'm pleased to report that http://cycle.travel/map now defaults to kilometres for European routes. :) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/cycle-travel-bike-routing-for-Western-Europe-tp5811759p5811927.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] osmf-talk list
For those who (like me) are not members of OSMF there are a couple of interesting discussions on the osmf-talk list that you may like to observe. Only OSMF members can post to osmf-talk, but anyone can read. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2014-September/date.html Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board
[this was originally posted to osmf-talk; I'm not a member of OSMF so can't reply to it there. I'm also breaking my self-imposed discipline of not posting to the talk@ list for this, but I figure it's important] Sarah Hoffman wrote: while checking the candidate list for the upcoming board elections, I came across Frederik's maifesto here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Frederik_Ramm/2014_OSMF_Board_Elections_Manifesto This sheds some rather bad light on how the board operates, indicating that some of the practises border on the illigal. I understand that this is the individual opinion of a single board member but I believe it is important that such accusations are discussed because I don't see how the board can operate efficiently otherwise. It is even more important in the light of the upcoming elections. Reading this manifesto indicates that there is little point in standing for election as there is nothing but frustration to achieve in the board. As a former board member, I would concur with Frederik's posting which tallies with my unhappy experience on the board. It is clear, I'm afraid, that the OSMF board is broken. Plenty of people know this privately but it hasn't been admitted publicly. We should stop pretending. There are some really smart people in this project and it's sad that most have chosen to involve themselves in their local organisations rather than OSMF (I'm thinking particularly the US and France here). I have no personal animus against the current board - quite the opposite, they're lovely people - but it's clear it isn't working. (And I take my share of responsibility as a one-time board member for failing to fix it.) I would like to see: - the whole board stand down in advance of this election; - now and in the future, those who have already served two standard-length terms (i.e. six years) should refrain from re-election and further involvement; this is good practice in any organisation (e.g. the US presidency!) but especially so in a fast-moving technology project. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Modus operandi of the board
Simon Poole wrote: Kathleen Danielson wrote: That said, I would like to voice my support for Richard's suggestion that the full board step down. It simply is a very unrealistic option given that it would require a mechanism that doesn't exist to force all board members to resign. Absolutely no force required. I would hope that the existing board members would recognise the virtue of a fresh mandate and a clean start. Incidentally, only three of the current board members (Simon, Frederik and Kate) have contributed to or shown any sign of being aware of this debate. Matt of course is stepping down but I hope Dermot, Henk and Oliver will take this chance to engage with the community they represent and serve. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap ten years on, and why it's time for a fresh slate
This one's going to be long, but it might be worth it, I hope. I've been involved in OSM for almost ten years now. 22nd November is my OSM birthday: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2004-November/000111.html Message 000111. Right now talk@ is up to 71235, never mind the other lists. Come to Charlbury on the 22nd, I'll buy you all a drink and find you somewhere to sleep. (Don't tell Anna.) OSM has changed my life, and my outlook, in several ways. One is realising that a small number of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, without any hope of a fast buck - which is a noble idea we all have in our 20s but this was the first real-life proof, to me, that it really does work. The other, perhaps more important, is: it's down to you. If you want change, change things. In 2005 we expressed this by demanding action, not words, from anyone who said 'OSM should do it like this' on the lists. The word 'should' was a red rag to us back then. In time the word 'do-ocracy' was coined. But the other half of the do-ocracy equation has never received enough credit. It's not just that actions speak louder than words; it's that we trust you to carry out the actions. OSM doesn't have a moderation system for edits. Site improvements don't have to go through five board committees. It's OSM. You're a contributor. You've given us your time. We trust you. Do great things. That, more than anything, is why OSM works. We value, and trust, our contributors. Every one of them. OSM is 'do great things' multiplied by ten thousand. The slight wrinkle is that this only gets you 95% of the way there. The 95% is astonishing. The 95% is mapping large parts of the world to ridiculous levels of detail. We are by most metrics the best available map of Germany, the UK, increasingly France, Russia and the urban US, and a hundred places I don't even know about. (I made this comment elsewhere. I was immediately picked up by a Belgian mapper, Marc, saying hey, what about us?. He was right. I didn't know. That's how far we have come.) The 95% is running the most crazily lean, efficient hardware setup, constantly reinventing: our API went from plain-old-Ruby to Rails to C++, our tile servers from monolithic to distributed, our database from MySQL to Postgres, our UI from entirely serverside to largely clientside. The 95% is an ecosystem of renderers and routers and, dare I admit it, the sleekest desktop map data editor there is and its universe of amazing plugins. (It begins with J. Don't make me say the name.) So if I talk about the 5% that do-ocracy doesn't accomplish, that's no slur on the OSM community. Our 5% is Wikipedia's 30% and Google's 95%. We do more, ourselves, better, than anyone else. Rewind to 2012. It was pretty clear we needed a new default editor on osm.org. Potlatch 2 still worked, but Flash Player was already (rightly) on the way out, and the six-year-old Potlatch user interface - initially designed for moderately clued-up users working on a blank canvas back in 2006 - was confusing for the newbies attracted by the explosion of public interest in OSM. This was a 5% problem. We needed a new beginners' editor, but no-one was clamouring to write it. The 95% of experienced OSMers, understandably, wanted to work on JOSM plugins for experienced OSMers. I tentatively started work on a newbie-friendly JavaScript editor called iD (I'm terrible at naming software) but I was pretty burned out on OSM development at the time and only got so far. Happily, in this case, there was a Fairy Godmother in the shape of the Knight Foundation and Mapbox. The Knight Foundation funded Mapbox to rebuild and complete iD. As part of this some incredibly skilled JavaScript developers and designers got to work on it. I don't think the outcome could have been any better, and it continues to delight me right now: while we're pointlessly beating seven shades out of each other in this thread, osmbot: [osm-website|master|John Firebaugh] Update to iD v1.6.1 has just flashed up on IRC. iD is how it ought to work. iD isn't telling the 95% how to map or what to map. It isn't saying Mapbox want turn restrictions, therefore the osm.org default will be devoted to mapping turn restrictions. It's simply a 5% intervention, a new tool which no-one else was writing, to increase the 95% of do-ers, to bring us more contributors. The effort in building it will benefit us many times over. But we can't always expect a Fairy Godmother to appear. We struck lucky in this one case. There are plenty of places where we haven't. I can recite a few of them. We have very little mobile presence, even though smartphones are ideal surveying devices; a 5% intervention here would bring so many more people to our 95%. Diversity is almost becoming a hackneyed word in OSM but let's restate the truth of it; a 5% intervention would make sure that our 95% of do-ers grows to
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Fix a Forest - experimental tiles from US Forest Service data
On 11/11/2014 20:57, Clifford Snow wrote: Suggestion - set the tile background to transparent so we can see underlying image in JOSM. I can certainly have a look at doing that. Do you/anyone know whether transparent tiles would still be usable in iD? cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Unelected OSMF advisers
I am a little concerned that the (already overwhelming) task of fixing OSMF, which has been entrusted to a board of seven good people, is being made still harder by people in mysterious unelected roles offering their advice. I know of at least two: Mike Collinson is chair of the (AIUI moribund) 'Management Team'. Steve Coast is 'chairman emeritus' - I'm not sure whether Simon Poole has also been offered this title. I believe (but don't know) there may be others who receive copies of, and can send, management emails but aren't elected in any way. Two requests: First, for the sake of openness, it would be good to see these relationships documented on the OSMF website. Second, while the new board decides on its direction, a period of self-imposed silence by these people would be considerate. Frederik, Kathleen and Paul have been newly elected to do a difficult job. Their work will be made all the more difficult by a cacophony of advice from those without a mandate. This isn't personal - I like Mike very much, while I think it's fairly comprehensively documented that Steve and I don't get on - but it seems, to me, common decency that if you ask someone to do a job, you give them the time and space to do it. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unelected OSMF advisers
Michael Collinson wrote: For transparency, I have attended about one year of board meetings now I think (it is minuted). I took the approach that I should simply listen and pick up items that the MT could handle. I was however encouraged to take a more participatory role provided that I do not take part in voting. On board email, I answer questions that are asked and occassionally make reports or specific requests from the Management Team or License Working Group. Else, the value is that I am generally aware of issues and do not need to be briefed. I cannot make comment on board meeting or email detail, but I do not think it breaching confidentiality to say that Steve's participation is overwhelming passive ... he makes his engagement through public, open channels to my knowledge. During the approximately the past three weeks, and only then, I have certainly been aggressive in giving advice ... and asking it. Yes, it is possible that I have over-stepped bounds. I find it difficult to imagine our mild-mannered Mike Collinson being aggressive! The new board members have been elected because the electorate believe they are the people best placed to make OSMF better; because the electorate likes their vision for change. When a benevolent long-timer offers advice and briefings, there is an implicit invitation to the newcomers to go native - for future activities to tend towards business as usual. No document is neutral, no matter how well-intentioned; it is written within a particular worldview, with its own assumptions and backdrop. But sometimes a fresh pair of eyes is exactly what's needed, without preconceptions about we tried that once and it didn't work, without we always have to think about this important matter. If the more long-standing board members choose to resist change, they do at least have a mandate. Advisers don't, and should bear their privileged position responsibly. By all means you, and Steve, and others can be on hand to offer advice if asked. Your newly published document is interesting - very much so - but it's written with the experience and from the perspective of us old farts. Newcomers to the board should have fresh perspectives, fresh ideas. Let the new board form their first thoughts free of external pressure. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Balance of power (was: Re: How to vote to match your view)
[Apologies to talk@ readers for this follow-up to a post on osmf-talk@. I'm not an OSMF member and therefore can't post to osmf-talk@, but as I'm being spoken about over there, I'd appreciate the opportunity to respond.] Steve Coast wrote: See, there was no group that mobbed Richard out the board. The CWG took away Twitter access from everyone without any consultation, thinking Ivan's tweet was mine. I asked for it back, used every channel as I outlined. Richard sadly quit feeling CWG was being overpowered by the board but that's not what happened. The CWG took Twitter away from the people using it without talking to anyone, then was surprised this wasn't okay. For the record: Communications Working Group didn't think Ivan's tweet was yours. We genuinely didn't know who had sent it. (From what I remember of the content of the tweet, it didn't appear to be from a native English speaker, and at first I thought it might have been Emilie.) At the time, CWG was aiming for a step change in our communications. In particular, we were aiming to follow up our very successful switch2osm campaign, and were in the early stages of planning a second campaign aimed at recruiting new mappers. A large part of that was professionalising our message - bringing sharper focus to OSM's outbound communications, to consistently push the message that mapping was accessible, enjoyable, and made a difference. Basic marketing and not the sort of thing that should come as a surprise to anyone. To get this focused message across, we needed to ensure that everything going out on our Twitter, Facebook and Google+ accounts was in line. In an ideal world we would like to have drawn up simple house style and messaging guidelines (again, marketing 101) for those with access. However, our hand was forced by this badly phrased tweet, from persons unknown, endorsing a map which failed to attribute OSM (years later, I can't even remember what map it was!). Changing the Twitter password and asking those who wanted a message to go out to contact us, which is what we did, seemed the easiest and most sensible short-term measure. Unfortunately you decided to take this as a personal affront, when no such affront was intended, and to campaign volubly for CWG's work to be overruled because of this. There is absolutely no personal animus in this. Sure, I disagree with you on many things, but you're an engaging guy to chat to over a pint and I have no doubt we'll do so again some time. But let me make it clear that I did not quit because CWG was being overpowered by the board. I quit because it was clear that there was no likelihood of improving OSM through the Foundation, in any fashion, when well-intentioned, industrious, and skilled volunteer work could be overturned by emotive say-so. I see no sign that this has changed, and that is why I have no intention of rejoining the Foundation. As a postscript, I believe switch2osm was the last substantial marketing effort that OSMF has done. All the good publicity for OSM since then has been from third parties, particularly Mapbox. Progress in OSM happens despite the Foundation, not because of it. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch 2 - Is it still being developed? Tasks?
Dave F. wrote: I still use P2, I've tried the others a few times, but keep returning. Is it still being developed? I've noticed a 'tasks' button has been added. Yes, it is, albeit sporadically. Now it's free of the pressure of being the default editor, it's able to gain a few more unusual features now and then. I've documented them in my user diary: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Richard/diary cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Potlatch-2-Is-it-still-being-developed-Tasks-tp5828078p5828082.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Imports] amenity=bicycle_repair_station :::: only 18 so far
brycenesbitt wrote: Are there any additional comments on the issue of importing (actually synchronizing) 500 bicycle repair stations? With this import OSM would become the most comprehensive database of repair station locations. Where the location is good, it would be great to have these in OSM. In cases where the location is a bit less firm, I still suggest you go for it in rural areas (bike routes, small towns, etc.): the location is likely to be good enough and it could make a real difference to someone stranded miles from anywhere. For cities where there are local OSM mappers and where the location is inexact, I'd suggest that you just use notes. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/amenity-bicycle-repair-station-only-18-so-far-tp5824412p5832848.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Routing across parks
Dave F. wrote: On Richard F. cycle.travel routing. How do reset start again? There's a Close route button at the top of the turn-by-turn directions - click that and it'll clear the route. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Routing-across-parks-tp5836533p5836536.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Andy Mabbett wrote: In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though the mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on community decisions via wiki talk pages. Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Please-ban-Xxzme-in-wiki-tp5843984p5844138.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Ilya Zverev wrote: Who banned Xxzme in wiki a while ago? Please do it again. Seconded. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Please-ban-Xxzme-in-wiki-tp5843984p5843986.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] What's your OSM story?
In just over a week's time it's State of the Map US (yay). I'm giving a talk which will touch on why people contribute to OSM - and how we can get more! I'd love to hear your story as to what got you started. I know there's some good Serious Research on the topic, but for now I'm more interested in local colour - individual stories from OSM contributors. Post here, drop me a line (rich...@systemed.net), or on my diary at http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Richard/diary/35107 . Thanks! cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mappers and apps should focus on relations at the very start
Jo wrote: even more sorry you stopped being the lead developer of iD For the record: the mantle of lead developer of iD passed to Tom and John immediately after SOTM-US Portland because it was wonderfully clear that their JavaScript skills are pretty much on a different planet to mine, and I was delighted to see them take up the torch. My reluctance to continue work on OSM editing software dates from before this, as you can see if you look at the commit graphs of both proto-iD and Potlatch 2. This is why I was so keen in summer 2013 to get iD made the default instead of Potlatch 2: so that the burden of maintaining the default editor could pass to someone else and I wouldn't have to endure the shit flung at the holder of that role any more. I think you, and others, need to consider why it's only those with the thickest skins that are prepared to work on OSM site (and, particularly, online editor) development. I am not the only one to have burned out. You have your own views. That's fine. Your view is that there is a problem. That is not objective truth, that is your view and it may or may not be informed by actual facts. Others may believe that the main challenge for OSM is to be welcoming enough for a million new users to contribute their local knowledge - not to provide more and more detailed methods for a diminishing number of power users to map the locations of angels on a pin, without ever being troubled by thoughts of how new users will interact with those detailed methods. That too is not objective truth, it is a view (it happens to be mine). What is unacceptable is the relentless, harrying, dismissive, abusive manner in which you and others advance the former view over the latter. That is why we cannot retain developers. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads
Frederik Ramm wrote: What everybody can see is a clearing or change in the surface of something. That's fine to map. Inferring from that that there must have been a railway there is a step too far. We are mappers, not trappers. Ok, let's try an experiment. Go to http://cycle.travel/map/journey/15120, click the route highlight (in purple), and click 'Find photos'. I spot a bridge in the characteristic Victorian railway style, a viaduct, the remains of a signal box, a large embankment of the type used to build railways and nothing else from that period, and A SODDING RAILWAY PLATFORM FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Tell me again you can't infer there must have been a railway there. I dare you. I double dare you. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/stop-deleting-abandoned-railroads-tp5852056p5852474.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails
moltonel 3x Combo wrote: Remember that interpreting osm data is actually a lot of work. Very few people have the manpower to verify what railroad= dismantled actually mean to decide wheter they want to use or filter out that data. Most of them will just match railway=*, plus perhaps some special cases for railway=rail and railway= subway. Now they're looking at historical data without even knowing it. They are confused. Please don't make stuff up. cycle.travel's rendering is 1300 lines of CartoCSS, 1400 of .mml, 300 lines of Lua preprocessing, and 350 lines of Ruby/PostGIS postprocessing. Of this, the code required to show only operational railways is 100 characters - a rounding error. It's a detail in a 1400-character line of .mml and it was copied directly from OSM-Bright, the base style used by switch2osm. In other words, anyone setting up an OSM tileserver from the canonical instructions already gets this for free. There are plenty of issues with OSM railway tagging that make decent rendering, routing and analysis hard. (railway=station covering both mainline stations and preserved heritage attractions is the first that springs to mind.) railway=dismantled is not one of them. As to whether utterly dismantled railways belong in the OSM database, I couldn't really care less. In terms of doctrine, they probably don't, though let's not overstate the issue: I suspect more bytes have been spilled in this thread than it would take to encode a dump of current railway=dismantled in .pbf format. But Gregory, Greg and Jason have it right. This is not about some precious notion of purity, it's about community. Outside the two fundamentals of openly licensed and crowdsourced, OSM is characterised by its pragmatism. We do what works. What works is a community of people who feel respected and empowered. And bearing in mind that we're talking about the US here, we need all the community we can get. Read Minh Nguyen's excellent new diary post (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Minh%20Nguyen/diary/35646). Even in the super-affluent, super-educated Bay Area, OSM is barely at the stage that Europe reached five or more years ago. It is an endless parade of outdated street configurations, missing landmarks, test edits. But, he notes, there is plenty of rail and bike infrastructure. This is what characterised OSM adoption here in Britain. The enthusiasts are the first to get it: the railfans, the cyclists. Widespread take-up comes later, once the enthusiasts have built something good. The last thing we want to do in the US is drive away the few enthusiasts we currently have. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Abandoned-Rails-tp5852866p5853037.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] License files
Malcolm Herring wrote: > The copyright page on the Wiki seems to only refer to tiles The canonical copyright pages for OSM are http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License not whatever Xxzme might have mauled on wiki.osm.org. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/License-files-tp5857939p5857944.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0
Matthijs Melissen wrote: > Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has > been released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org > servers. It might still take a couple of days before all tiles > show the new rendering. Congratulations to all involved - real dedication to the cause despite the slings and arrows. Thank you. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Release-openstreetmap-carto-v2-36-0-tp5858363p5858367.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads
Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Therefore I will delete any object that no longer exists or never existed (after communication with mapper or other method to verify whatever I am mistaken, with exception of highway= proposed). OSM would be a better, and nicer, place if people went out and did mapping, rather than staying at home and doing deleting. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/stop-deleting-abandoned-railroads-tp5852056p5853420.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Three-months ban is over
Ilya Zverev wrote (re: Xxzme): > For me, it's clear that the ban did not work, and nothing has changed. Quoting Xxzme on the wiki: "What is clear to me is that you make ~0 improments to Main namespace "And constantly repeating yourself with magical "purpose" of Beginners' guide which was clearly defined and not by you! "I doubt you are the person to teach me or anyone else with your pathetic 4.5k houses per 7 years of editing Xxzme (talk) 09:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC)" I would like to see a permanent ban for Xxzme from the project. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Three-months-ban-is-over-tp5853930p5853932.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Railways yet again (was "THIS is the kind of enthusiasm some would reject")
Frederik Ramm wrote: > But what if I have said the same thing five times already and the > others STILL don't see that I'm RIGHT Please try not to bring OSMF board meeting conventions onto the talk list. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/THIS-is-the-kind-of-enthusiasm-some-would-reject-tp5854124p5854261.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails
Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > Now it is done with railways and may be stopped. But if > completely dismantled railways are not deleted from OSM > what would stop somebody interested in mapping completely > destroyed buildings, canals etc? You're absolutely right. We should also stop mapping bus routes. These are often not supported by on-the-ground evidence, just by patterns of usage, and that might lead someone to map (say) the functionally equivalent corridors most often used by taxis or Uber vehicles. We should stop mapping official council boundaries. These aren't on the ground, and they are just administrative delineations of certain services. What would stop someone taking this and mapping pizza companies' delivery boundaries? We should stop adding postcodes. These usually aren't on the ground and they are just the reference system of one private company[1] among many. Someone might add the internal reference identifiers used by utility companies or indeed any other company with assets to manage. And we should stop making hypothetical points on the mailing list, because what would stop someone interested in applying those hypothetical points to other bits of OSM? Richard [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Mail#Privatisation -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Abandoned-Rails-tp5852866p5854391.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails
moltonel 3x Combo wrote: > The line is going through multiple buildings and a wide low > wall. That's as unambiguous as it gets. The lack of any > other sign on the grass and highway areas are an additional > good hint. If you're mapping a railroad here, you're mapping > the past. Haha. I have, actually, been to the place you cited. Or, nearly. I cycled a couple of miles away from that example in June this year (I took a three-day bike tour after SOTM-US) and saw that railway - I actually explored its course for a few metres at one point. It was plenty in evidence if you knew what you were looking for, whether or not you can see it from the aerials. From what I saw elsewhere on the line, I cannot say with any confidence that there aren't distinctive traces of a former railroad there at the lat/long you cited. There might be. There might not. I suspect I'm more attuned to finding these traces than you are. Conversely I suspect you're more attuned than I am to some other stuff which you enjoy mapping. But I don't go and delete your mapping thousands of miles away just because I can't see it on some imagery. Come on. (And let's not get hung up about "if you're mapping a railroad". railway=dismantled does not mean it's a usable railway now, and no-one is claiming that. You have been in OSM long enough to know that the characters that make up a k/v combination are just that, characters. highway=footway is Not Actually A Highway. highway=trunk is Just Some Letters Indicating Importance And Isn't Even A Trunk Road In The UK. And so on.) But really... can we get a sense of perspective here? A few metres from the URL you cited is http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/263868309 which doesn't exist, at all. No building. No sign of a building. It's fiction. Then there's http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/263878931 which is an imported square footprint that looks nothing like the actual building. Pan south a mile and you get http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=17/41.88892/-74.03297 which is a textbook example of TIGER barf - a cluster of "highway=residential"s that are neither highways nor residential and whose geometry bears little or no relation to what's actually there. (Also, NY State Bike Route 32 sucks rocks. The traffic is heavy and the shoulder is either non-existent or too narrow to ride. I would love to find a way of mapping that.) If I were going to write 40 messages to a thread trying to make OSM better (I'm angry enough with myself that I've been drawn into writing four), in this area or anywhere, I would not choose deleting a few "railway=dismantled"s as my top priority. I really wouldn't. Please, give it a break, have a bit of respect for others' differing views, and go and make OSM better somewhere where it matters. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Abandoned-Rails-tp5852866p5854394.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM
Clifford Snow wrote: > I want to make sure I cover the salient points that would interest > cyclists. If you know of any websites that use bike routes or > otherwise make use of OSM data that would really be great. Where do I start...? :) Cycling and OSM have long been bedfellows. In Europe generally, and the UK in particular, cyclists were the interest group that took to OSM first. Part of the reason for this is economic (traditional geodata providers concentrate on cars because there's more money there) but partly also cultural, I think - cyclists have a culture of help-yourself and direct action, and that chimes very well with OSM. Historically cycle maps have been pretty poor, and OSM is the first chance to fix that, worldwide. Cycle mapping in OSM really started in earnest in 2006, when we started mapping the National Cycle Network in the UK: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network=3142 and in 2007 Andy Allan released the first version of what is now OpenCycleMap to show this: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-July/016012.html (The National Cycle Network is run by Sustrans, a UK charity, and as it happens a bunch of UK OSMers are or have been Sustrans volunteers.) The other significant development at this time was mkgmap, which turns OSM data into a map you can use on a handheld (or handlebar-mounted) Garmin GPS. I put together perhaps the first OSM Garmin bike map in 2008: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Cycle_map=71511 and since then others have done amazing work building more and more complex Garmin maps - Openfietsmap and Velomap are probably the two best known. So, routing. Routing is particularly important to cyclists because road systems and signage are generally designed for cars, funneling them onto more and more major arteries - and that's the absolute opposite of what cyclists want. If you're in London and simply follow the signs for Oxford it will take you along motorways built for cars and closed to bikes. You know all this. OSM is the first worldwide routable dataset that offers the potential for decent bike routing. Google has a go, and in many (mostly urban) areas Google bike routing comes up with good results, but it can also take you onto downright dangerous roads or impassable muddy tracks. If you ask Google for a route from Land's End to John O'Groats, the iconic end-to-end challenge in the UK (pretty much our equivalent of your Coast-to-Coast), it suggests the infamously dangerous main highway through Cornwall: https://goo.gl/maps/nwrbcAxgFRm and barely cyclable rural canal paths like this: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/599319 OSM has richer data and can do better. And with the advances in routing tools recently, particularly OSRM and Graphhopper, I think you could say that OSM bike routing is now the best in the world. There are lots of sites, but with no disrespect to the others who are doing good stuff (MapMyRide, Komoot...) there are three I'd single out. Mikel has already mentioned Strava, the favourite of road cyclists. Strava supplements OSM mapping with their own massive tracklog database from their users' rides, so it's not just sending you down roads that look good for cycling algorithmically, but those where cyclists actually ride. The big proviso with Strava is that it's a self-selecting userbase - they describe themselves as "a global community of athletes", and if, like me, your cycling isn't about being an "athlete" you'll find it takes you down the routes favoured by speedsters rather than the quiet lanes you might prefer. But it's the world's biggest bike routes site and they're doing a lot of really interesting stuff with OSM. CycleStreets (http://www.cyclestreets.net/), launched in 2009, was pretty much the pioneer in OSM bike routing. It's essentially UK-only other than an occasional outlier. It was the first site where you could ask for an A-B route and pretty much guarantee you'd get something good back. It looks at the full gamut of OSM tags to find a route, and is entirely custom-written code. It was spun out of the Cambridge Cycling Campaign and really makes the best of all their cycling knowledge. And at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, there's cycle.travel (http://cycle.travel/map), which I built. cycle.travel aims to give routes as good as an OSM specialist like CycleStreets, but with the speed and ease-of-use of Google's routeplanner - which means fully draggable routes, a custom map showing relevant bike stuff, and ridiculous amounts of preprocessing to get the OSM data just right. It started UK-only, then Western Europe, and now does the US and Canada too. The US routing is actually the most complex of the three, in its efforts to keep you off busy roads but also to avoid the TIGER residential trap - the last thing you want is to be routed along a "quiet rural residential road" that actually turns
Re: [OSM-talk] Community Conference
Ian Dees wrote: > As someone currently planning a more community-focused SOTM US, I'd > be interested in hearing what sort of changes you would propose to > the existing SOTM structure. It's a great question to ask; and I realise this may sound a little contrarian, but I actually find myself enjoying SOTM-US more than SOTM. SOTM-US is full of people shipping things, and "shipping things" is the OSM spirit. Whether they're corporate or not doesn't really bother me. SOTM tends to have a greater proportion of academia and unviable hobbyist projects, which arouses the 2007 militant OSMer in me: "yes, this is all very clever, but what are you actually _doing_ with it?". That isn't to denigrate the organisational effort of the SOTM crew, who conjure miracles out of nothing; nor to say SOTM-US is perfect. (_Way_ too much Node.JS at SOTM-US. ;) ) And SOTM-EU in Karlsruhe was neither SOTM-US nor SOTM, but was perhaps the finest OSM conference I've attended. But I would really caution against contrasting "corporate" and "community". cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Community-Conference-tp5861569p5861575.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim weakness
John Goodman wrote: > And if its searching facility is braindead Please avoid being gratuitously offensive by describing something that lots of volunteers have put countless hours into as "braindead". Thank you. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Nominatim-weakness-tp5862392p5862453.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Project OSM2VectorTiles.org launched
Stefan Keller wrote: > OSM2VectorTiles is a project simplifying installation of free > world maps maintained by OpenStreetMap community. Looks interesting - nice work! If I may just pick you up on one statement in the thesis: "There also exists a method[17] that circumvents using a database and directly transform OSM data into vector tiles but this does not scale for global vector tile coverage and does not support mixing additional data into the vector tiles. "[17] GitHub. Tilemaker, 2015. URL https://github.com/systemed/tilemaker. Visited on 2015-12-14." Whether tilemaker scales to the globe has not yet been attested. My hunch is that it probably doesn't impose more demanding requirements than, say, OSRM, which would mean it should be possible to create vector tiles from planet.osm.pbf with a large memory machine or EC2 instance. I would be interested to hear from anyone who tries it. It does, however, very definitely support including additional data (in shapefile form), and even allows you to perform some spatial queries using this data. See https://github.com/systemed/tilemaker/blob/master/CONFIGURATION.md#shapefiles . cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Project-OSM2VectorTiles-org-launched-tp5862757p5862759.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch down?
Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: > Is it just me or is the OSM's built-in potlatch editor not currently > working? Should be fixed now. TomH identified that a Passenger upgrade caused requests to break, though exactly why isn't yet clear... Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Potlatch-down-tp5862638p5862659.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] switch2osm documentation upgrade (was: Re: Tile Server manual build 15.10 troubleshooting)
Daniel Koć wrote: > BTW: who is the maintainer of switch2osm site? I was not able to > find any contact informations there. I am, though a few other people also have admin/editing rights. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Tile-Server-manual-build-15-10-troubleshooting-tp5863850p5863962.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] switch2osm documentation upgrade
Daniel Koć wrote: > Oh, "Find Out More" page has some contact informations, but I > guess "Contact" or "About us" would be easier to find. The page recommends that you use IRC in the first instance, and also suggests help.osm.org for asking questions. I really do not want to get into providing unpaid tileserver support by email, which providing an contact address would lead to. > So my second question is: what do you think about upgrading part of > the site (with installation instructions) the way I just proposed - or > maybe some other way? If you'd like to provide a regularly-maintained Docker image and some installation instructions, I'd be very happy to include that on the site. I wouldn't want to replace the main content with auto-generated instructions, however. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Tile-Server-manual-build-15-10-troubleshooting-tp5863850p5863968.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Best way to amalgamate two relations?
Dave F. wrote: > Is there an easy way to transfer the newer data into the > original relation? In P2: - Select a way belonging to both relations, adding them if needs be - In the \/ menu next to the new relation (Advanced panel), choose 'Select all members' - In the \/ menu next to the original relation, choose 'Add selection to this relation' - In the \/ menu next to the new relation, choose 'Delete relation' cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Best-way-to-amalgamate-two-relations-tp5863106p5863117.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments
Christoph Hormann wrote: > And if on http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1300 i read: > > "Please draw one large area outline around groups of buildings > and tag them landuse=residential" > > that is in violation of one of the core principles of OSM, namely > to map reality, what's on the ground. The core principle you're looking for is that OSM is iterative. We iterate towards completion. Start simple, become detailed. Back in the day, we used big swathes of landuse= to mark residential areas, and abutters= to indicate shops beside roads. You and I are fortunate enough to live in OSM-rich countries where all the important stuff has now been mapped and people can concentrate on unimportant fripperies like building outlines and addresses. By definition, HOT activities aren't in such countries. It's absolutely reasonable to start with approximations and replace them over time - that's what we were doing in the UK when the map was at a similar state of development to these places. Call it a Minimum Viable Map. Let's have a bit less judgement, and a bit more helping newbie mappers (and their organisers, who may not have as long-standing an OSM background as you) to do things well. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/A-message-to-our-friends-at-HOT-Peace-Corps-etc-about-Changeset-Comments-tp5860424p5860499.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments
Blake Girardot wrote:
> As to the original issue Ramm raised:
Frederik's first name is Frederik. It's not that uncommon. :) Please can we
avoid this becoming _really_ unnecessarily confrontational by calling people
by their surnames in a sort of English public school style ("go it,
molesworth, show them wot yore made of").
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard
Andreas Vilén wrote: > Post codes are also a little dubious, since those aren't open > data in Sweden and can normally only be figured out through > local knowledge Perish the thought that people might add their local knowledge to OSM. I thought it was all imports, armchairing and tagwanking these days. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/MAPS-ME-edits-partly-sub-standard-tp5875743p5876046.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcement: Direct Access to MapQuest map tiles without a key will end on 11 July 2016. Details on getting keys and SDKs
Jeff Medaugh wrote: > MapQuest is moving to a 100% cloud solution - the new > infrastructure dictates that all tile access will require a key. > Details on how to get keys, SDKs and general migration > information is below: Thanks for posting this. Will there still be specific 'MapQuest Open' products (i.e. 100% OSM data), or will everything be a hybrid of TomTom in key markets, OSM elsewhere? Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Announcement-Direct-Access-to-MapQuest-map-tiles-without-a-key-will-end-on-11-July-2016-Details-on-gs-tp5875610p5875617.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Proposal to close newbies@ list
Hi all, Usage of the newb...@openstreetmap.org mailing list, set up in 2007 to provide help to new users, has dwindled to almost nothing. There were no posts in September, October, November, or December. Generally we now have better places to provide help to new users - principally http://help.openstreetmap.org/ , but also national forums and mailing lists. There is also more OSM documentation than was once the case. So that new users don't seek help in a little-used backwater, but instead go to a place where help is more likely to be found, I'm proposing (as list admin) to close the list to subscriptions and to posting. The list archives would be retained. If you have a compelling reason why the list should not be closed, please speak up now. You'll need to volunteer to be the admin though. ;) cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Applicability of wiki tagging and votes: may, should or must
David Marchal wrote: > What is the applicability of the Wiki content? Three long-standing principles of OSM: 1. consensus is important 2. precedent is important 3. patches beat "should" The first means that you can't order the community to do things based on ten people voting on the wiki. taginfo, major clients, and agreement on these lists are also valid indicators of consensus, often more so. The second means that you can't order the community to do things which break long-established OSM good practice, even if you've voted it through on the wiki. The third means that you can't simply get ten votes on the wiki and require editor or stylesheet authors to change their code or maps. A vote on the wiki does not mean that these people have to spend hours coding something for your new relation scheme, nor does it even mean they are obliged to accept a patch from you if they disagree with it. So the applicability of the wiki content is to the wiki. But it is one of several indicators of consensus in the wider project, and it's consensus that drives the project and tagging in particular. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Applicability-of-wiki-tagging-and-votes-may-should-or-must-tp5866166p5866182.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Applicability of wiki tagging and votes: may, should or must
Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > I am not claiming that there are quick & easy ways to reduce > complexity - but complexity has some real negative consequences. The cycleway tagging mess has come about because a bunch of wikifiddlers keep inventing ever more spurious and unnecessary tags - highway=path, bicycle=designated, bicycle=official, and so on. That's an argument to distrust the wiki, not to give it more authority. If we were to elevate the wiki to 'MUST' status, you'd have to support a new set of tags every time ten people voted on one obscure wiki page. At least, with the current situation, any tag needs to get some sort of critical mass before clients need to worry about supporting it. FWIW, I process cycleways extensively for cycle.travel's map and routing, covering Western Europe and North America. The variant tags aren't great but they're not that much of a problem - nothing that a few ifs and tables can't solve (Lua ftw). The three serious problems I do encounter are: 1. Granular tags (notoriously highway=path) with missing information. highway=path without both access= and surface= tags is pretty much useless. 2. Differing densities of data, such as Germany with its countless highway=tracks - makes effective cartography from a single stylesheet very difficult. 3. Bad imported data, principally but not exclusively TIGER. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Applicability-of-wiki-tagging-and-votes-may-should-or-must-tp5866166p5866307.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] osm maps on wikipedia - discussion
Frederik Ramm wrote: > We'd have to explain to Wikipedia users that what they see on our > maps might not be what they expect, and that we do *not* want > them to fix it... I've just created a quick, friendly wiki page to explain that and other differences: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Wikipedia_users Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/osm-maps-on-wikipedia-discussion-tp5872649p5872717.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Automated edits code of conduct
Éric Gillet wrote: > However I'd believe that there is (in Europe for the example's sake) a > very low number of restaurant really named McDonalds and not part > of the franchise. So if the changeset correct 300 restaurants but 2 > are "damaged" by the automated edit, would the edit be bad enough > to be reverted or not be done in the first place ? The answer to which is, of course, it depends. For some automated edits the collateral damage will be too great, for others it may sometimes be acceptable. The person proposing the automated edit isn't the best placed person to weigh that up: they're already convinced of the desirability of the edit (which is why they're proposing it). So we need a second opinion - people to review the edit to see whether the collateral damage will be too great. Since OSM is a classic example of "with many eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus%27s_Law), the challenge is to make sure enough eyeballs look at the proposed automated edit to see if there are any bugs in it. To ensure this, those proposing an automated edit need to put it in front of people's eyeballs. There are good ways to do that - particularly these mailing lists. Fortunately, this is _exactly_ what http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct suggests. :) Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Automated-edits-code-of-conduct-tp5877825p5878347.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Automated edits code of conduct
Éric Gillet wrote: > That would be slightly faster to execute than the first approach I was > suggesting, but then how would you prove that you checked every > and all features ? Well, the best way to prove that you checked everything is not to fuck things up, which of course you won't, because you've checked everything. If you fuck things up (for example, by changing name=McDonalds to name=McDonald's on an independent restaurant that is actually called McDonalds), then by definition you haven't checked sufficiently, have you? Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Automated-edits-code-of-conduct-tp5877825p5878305.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Automated edits code of conduct
Victor Grousset wrote: > On 14/07/2016 17:35, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > The person proposing the automated edit isn't the best placed > > person to weigh that up: they're already convinced of the desirability > > of the edit (which is why they're proposing it). > > The person already weighed that up to decide that the benefit were > worth many hours in preparation, discussion, execution that will > possibly end up reverted. Which doesn't mean they're automatically right. I'm sure the person who did this automated dupe node merge spent many hours preparing it, but they still fucked it up, and the damage is still there 6 years later. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/357366507 Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Automated-edits-code-of-conduct-tp5877825p5878798.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Automated edits code of conduct
Éric Gillet wrote: > In contrary to the Contributor Terms, these rules : > - Doesn't seem to have been voted on before their "establishment" The Code of Conduct is a document enforced and revised by DWG, with the intention of codifying long-standing principles in OSM (principally, "respect the work of others"). DWG is a committee of the elected OSMF. If you don't like it, you can vote for directors on OSMF who share your viewpoint, who can then vote to instruct DWG accordingly. This is called representative democracy. The alternative is direct democracy, where fundamental policies are put to a vote (or "referendum") among an ill-informed, over-emotive, easily stirred-up population. This is a really, really bad idea. Trust me on that one. :( Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Automated-edits-code-of-conduct-tp5877825p5877864.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM EU
Martijn van Exel wrote: > Here I thought I was asking a simple question. On an OSM mailing list? You must be new round here. (More seriously, there were rumours of an event in Italy, but I've not heard anything concrete.) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/SOTM-EU-tp5889608p5890295.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Spam reporting
Joost Schouppe wrote: > Well the annoyance with spam does pop up often enough. The usual > answer to things like this in the OSM ecosystem is "why don't you > do it yourself". I've not seen this answer for spam. Is there no easy > way for people to become spam-police if they like to do so? The "do it yourself" in this case is "finish the work on a reporting queue" which Ruben alluded to upthread: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/841 https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1268 It really is a case of "finishing" - plenty of work has already been done but it hasn't got to a state yet where it can be integrated into the site. For someone with Rails-fu it shouldn't be too hard. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Spam-reporting-tp5880292p5891924.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetView name change
Andy Mabbett wrote: > This is hardly surprising, and not unreasonable (there's no > "Ford Beetle" or "Volkswagen Mini", nor a "BurgerKing > Happy Meal". for example). Though there is Ordnance Survey Street View, which pre-dates Google Street View by several years. (It's soon to be replaced by OS Open Map Local.) FWIW, I like the "-scape" suffix, e.g. OpenStreetscape: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/streetscape Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/OpenStreetView-name-change-tp5885558p5885580.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Lot's of locality names in an otherwise empty area
Sebastian Arcus wrote: > Well, looking at the map, it looks like each and every parcel of > land and section of field has a locality tag associated with it. It's very common in the UK, too, for uninhabited sections of woodland and hillside to have placenames. > it still seems a bit odd - and begs the question if those tags > really need to be there. Why not? Be conservative in what you change/delete in OSM, be liberal in what you add. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Lot-s-of-locality-names-in-an-otherwise-empty-area-tp5886253p5886295.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?
Michał Brzozowski wrote: > The rules for routing appear to be mostly global for popular > routers. There is very little magical sauce, if any. I wouldn't say that. Obviously the demo instances for OSRM and GraphHopper use their own vanilla profiles, but other routers very often have customised profiles/rules. My own http://cycle.travel/map has a completely different, much more complex profile than the standard OSRM bicycle profile, for example. John Whelan wrote: > Obviously if I select bicycle it won't use motorway or > footway but in general which highway types are used? cycle.travel _does_ actually route over motorways and footways if bicycle=yes tags are set. Many motorways in the US permit bikes (on the hard shoulder); it's not uncommon to see a shared-use path in the UK tagged as highway=footway, bicycle=yes; and a short distance pushing on a highway=footway can often provide a good route. For highway=track, I treat it differently for different countries: for example, in the UK I don't route over highway=track unless access tags suggest it's permitted. cycle.travel doesn't currently cover Africa and I have no plans to do so, but if it did I would probably route over highway=track there. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Which-type-of-highways-are-used-by-routing-software-tp5885190p5885210.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia/Wikidata admins cleanup
Mikel Maron wrote: > Reverts should be held to the same standard as imports (outside > of obviously urgent problems). Where a revert of an import (or other automated edit) is done by DWG because an import did not follow the rules, reverting that import just goes back to the status quo ante. That allows damage to be cancelled out and the import to be retried, later, when the problems have been addressed. Nothing is lost to OSM or the importer, and a lot is gained. I would gently submit that requiring DWG volunteers to undergo through a laborious consultation regime for every revert, simply to be able to apply the long-standing (and well-founded) rules, would achieve nothing apart from driving away a bunch of selfless, hard-working volunteers. (There are no other large-scale reverts that take place in OSM to my knowledge.) Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Wikipedia-Wikidata-admins-cleanup-tp5888517p5888705.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Disputed border between Greece and Turkey near Imia/Kardak in the Aegean Sea (was: Re: [Geocoding] Boundries of Kardak Islands)
Florian Schäfer wrote: > I'm not an expert on borders and how disputed borders are handled > in OSM, so I forward this to the talk-list, because this probably > needs more discussion. https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Disputed-border-between-Greece-and-Turkey-near-Imia-Kardak-in-the-Aegean-Sea-was-Re-Geocoding-Boundr-tp5894464p5894483.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Draft Trademark Policy
Roland Olbricht wrote: > This makes clear that neither the file name extension "osm" is > jeoparday. Or you do not want to discourage people from using > "osmium", "osmosis" or a range of other software. I see your point there, but conversely I am really uncomfortable with the OsmAnd situation. It's evident (from IRC, help.osm.org, other non-OSM forums etc.) that a lot of people assume OsmAnd is the official OpenStreetMap Android app. This is already a problem in terms of support burden. It could potentially become a problem for others building apps on OSM data (if users say "oh, no, I'd rather use the official app") or by effectively encouraging mapping for this official-sounding renderer. In brief, I don't believe we should have permitted OsmAnd to use that name, though by now the ship has almost certainly sailed. How you formulate a policy that permits osmosis and osmium but not OsmAnd, though, I have no idea. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Draft-Trademark-Policy-tp5900227p5900330.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"
Frederik Ramm wrote: > saying "your privacy goes down the drain if you do anything > online anyway, so why should we at OSM take steps to protect > it more". > > Perhaps: because we can, and because it's a good thing? ...or perhaps it isn't quite that black and white. OSM, at its best, is a community of real people, mapping their neighbourhoods, and taking responsibility for their edits. I stand by my edits in Charlbury and nearby because it's verifiable that I live here. If anonguy1 comes along and repeatedly edit-wars "Market Street" into "High Street", OSM defers, correctly, to me as the accountable local who feels a sense of ownership for my part of the map. If I wrongly armchair some TIGER and Todd from North Carolina says "hey, actually that should be a tertiary road", I defer to him - it's his map, I'm just visiting. As Mikel says upthread, "[OSM] depends so much on user reputation to retain quality". Breaking the connection between real people and "their map" fundamentally alters the OSM community, and, I think, makes it closer to the toxic, identity-free, virtual-personality environment that Wikipedia can so often be. You know and I know that several of OSM's most challenging edit wars in recent years have involved people who have not admitted, or have heavily obfuscated, their real names - sometimes generating a succession of disguised identities. I do not think this is coincidence. With identity comes accountability. There is nothing wrong with us saying "100% privacy is valuable, but it's not compatible with the way OSM works, and if you can't cope with your edits being trackable then OSM is perhaps not the project for you". Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/HDYC-login-requirement-and-privacy-tp5896250p5896429.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Cycle network nodes and mountain passes
Hi all, I've just added support for a couple more tags to cycle.travel's directions and thought it worth mentioning here - everyone likes seeing their mapping being used. :) First up, cycle.travel now includes 'knooppunten' (cycle node networks) in turn-by-turn directions. These are found in the Netherlands, Belgium and parts of Germany, and help you navigate dense cycle route networks. Here's an example: https://cycle.travel/map/journey/51597 This picks up rcn_ref= or lcn_ref= tags on nodes. It also includes mountain passes in the turn-by-turn directions, for people who like riding somewhere hillier: https://cycle.travel/map/journey/51600 These are nodes (on highways) tagged natural=saddle or mountain_pass=yes with a name tag. If there's an ele tag, this will be output too. Live in Western Europe now; will be in North America in the next update in a week or so's time. cycle.travel mapping and routing is updated from OSM roughly once a month. And thanks to everyone who has added knooppunten and mountain pass info to OSM! cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Quick-Fix service
Yuri Astrakhan wrote: > For example, RU community wants to convert amenity=sanatorium > -> leisure=resort + resort=sanatorium. Clicking on a dot shows a > popup with the suggested edit. If you think the edit is correct, simply > click Save. I've been a bit loth to get involved with this one but I do share the general worry. Editor authors have a general responsibility to encourage good editing behaviour in their UI design. It isn't quite as simple as "every tool can be used for good and bad things": the developer should design the tool to encourage the good and discourage (or prevent) the bad. The developers of JOSM and, particularly, iD have long been exemplary in this regard. This new tool can certainly be used for good, and there are use cases for which it is ideal, but it's also very easy to misuse. My biggest concern is that since it's decoupled from an editing environment, the natural tendency is just to click 'Change', 'Change', 'Change' rather than reviewing and manually making the changes. (We've seen this behaviour in several "challenges" in the past, such as the dupe nodes drive.) OSM is a collection of human knowledge; this workflow goes too far in removing the human from the equation. As an alternative, could I encourage you to look at something tentative I did the other year for that relic of an editor, Potlatch 2? https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Richard/diary/28267 This allows a user to navigate instantly between instances of a "challenge" within the editor, while benefiting from an external data source to define that challenge. The P2 implementation is fairly simple (there's no "Resolved" button to feed back to that external source, for example) but demonstrates the concept. If you were to build something along these lines into JOSM or iD, following the traditional MapRoulette-like approach of asking users to make the change rather than automating it, I think you'd get the benefits you're seeking to achieve without the potential damage. Richard -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence compatibility (was Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag)
Yuri Astrakhan wrote: > Also, what about the location where data is combined? E.g. if wikidata > is in public domain, and US courts agree with that statement, anyone > in the US can combine it with OSM data? What about UK? In any > case, i suspect nothing we decide has any merit until the actual court > case in any of the locations. OpenStreetMap takes and has always taken a whiter-than-white view of copyright. We aim to provide a dataset that anyone can use without fear of legal repercussions. It is not OSM's role to explore interesting grey areas in copyright, nor to push things to the extent that a court case is necessary. It has been settled for many years that we do not take co-ordinates from Wikipedia. They are mostly encumbered with Google copyright: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Obtaining_geographic_coordinates#Google_tools This is not a new issue and has been mentioned before in connection with Wikidata referencing. Our data is principally hosted in the UK and the OSM Foundation is a company registered in England & Wales, so as a broad assumption UK law applies (which is fairly maximalist on copyright and follows the sweat-of-the-brow doctrine) as well as the EU database right, at least until this benighted country takes leave of its senses forever and leaves the EU. :( Follow-ups probably best to legal-talk@. Richard -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet
Frederik Ramm wrote: > I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve > this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future. Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway. But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of openstreetmap-carto. Richard -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
