Re: [Talk-us] Extremely long Amtrak route relations

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

It seems that OSM has a an architectural problem with over-large relations?
>
+1

The Tongass National Forest [1] was recently mapped with great detail.  It
comprises most of the Alaska panhandle and all of its islands and inlets.
The relation has 28,000 members and contains over 2 million nodes.  It does
not load on osm.org, and is single-handedly responsible for a 48-hour
increase in the amount of time it takes to render the global tileset.

Meanwhile, on the opposite coast, a few users moved all of Hampton
Roads/Chesapeake Bay, and all of its inlets and estuaries, inside the
coastline [2], in order to speed up the amount of time it takes to render
the coastline and reduce the frequency of users breaking coastline
continuity.  A heated discussion on this continues over on the tagging list.

Personally, I think if the world is complicated, the model should be
complicated.  If the thing we're modeling is large in the world, it should
be large in the map.  It seems that we are increasingly doing things to
simplify the model because certain tooling can't handle the real level of
complexity that exists in the real world.  I'm in favor of fixing the
tooling rather than neutering the data.

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6535292
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94093155
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] changeset: 89516909

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I see.

Considering that, I've reverted my changes.

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 9:41 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> i was told i could not use do to licence GIS to.
>
>
>
> Tuesday, August 18, 2020 8:38 PM -05:00 from Brian M. Sperlongano <
> zelonew...@gmail.com>:
>
> All,
>
> I fixed this boundary relation and also one neighboring town (Wheeling,
> IL) using the Cook County, Illinois GIS as the data source, and re-used all
> of the original boundary relations.  Unfortunately it appears that all of
> Cook County needs to be updated to reflect the county GIS data (found here:
> https://hub-cookcountyil.opendata.arcgis.com/pages/boundary-open-data).
> Those census polygons are fairly close, but different.  The two border
> towns I checked just north in Lake County appear to line up perfectly with
> the Cook County data so this might just be a Cook County issue.  This is a
> start but there's lots of work to do there.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 9:10 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > wrote:
>
> lines no relations yes
>
>
>
> Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:52 PM -05:00 from Mike Thompson <
> miketh...@gmail.com
> >:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:42 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> <http://e.mail.ru/compose/?mailto=mailto%3atalk%2...@openstreetmap.org>>
> wrote:
>
> i will fix anything that i missed but the lines are truth.
>
> and it is not a polygon,
>
> As far as I know, boundary relations have to, in effect, be polygons, in
> other words, they have to close.
>
>
> and i broke nothing i fixed what the other guy broke and did it all by
> hand.
>
> The boundary relation (126598)  is currently broken. for one thing, it
> doesn't close at the location of Williamsberg Square residential area.
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] changeset: 89516909

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

All,

I fixed this boundary relation and also one neighboring town (Wheeling, IL)
using the Cook County, Illinois GIS as the data source, and re-used all of
the original boundary relations.  Unfortunately it appears that all of Cook
County needs to be updated to reflect the county GIS data (found here:
https://hub-cookcountyil.opendata.arcgis.com/pages/boundary-open-data).
Those census polygons are fairly close, but different.  The two border
towns I checked just north in Lake County appear to line up perfectly with
the Cook County data so this might just be a Cook County issue.  This is a
start but there's lots of work to do there.


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 9:10 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> lines no relations yes
>
>
>
> Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:52 PM -05:00 from Mike Thompson <
> miketh...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:42 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > wrote:
>
> i will fix anything that i missed but the lines are truth.
>
> and it is not a polygon,
>
> As far as I know, boundary relations have to, in effect, be polygons, in
> other words, they have to close.
>
>
> and i broke nothing i fixed what the other guy broke and did it all by
> hand.
>
> The boundary relation (126598)  is currently broken. for one thing, it
> doesn't close at the location of Williamsberg Square residential area.
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Brian M Hamlin]

seconded stevea -- very interesting and cogent, definitely reading these 
National Forest expositions


best regards from Berkeley, California   --Brian M Hamlin MAPLABS



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Re: [Talk-us] Online mappy hour

[m]

Hi all,

Quite a few people can make next Thursday the 28th, at 6pm PDT / 9pm 
EDT. So let's hold the mappy hour then.

Please find the dial-in and video options below. There are zoom clients 
for Windows, Linux, and Mac if you want to participate with video.

I look forward to chatting on Thursday.

-- 
Martijn

---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<

Martijn van Exel is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Topic: OSM Mappy Hour
Time: Mar 28, 2019 7:00 PM Mountain Time (US and Canada)

Join Zoom Meeting
https://telenav.zoom.us/j/309926315

One tap mobile
+16699006833,,309926315# US (San Jose)
+16468769923,,309926315# US (New York)

Dial by your location
 +1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
 +1 646 876 9923 US (New York)
 877 853 5257 US Toll-free
 855 880 1246 US Toll-free
Meeting ID: 309 926 315
Find your local number: https://zoom.us/u/aeu0XqswaC


On 3/18/19 11:05 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> You may remember that I hosted online ‘virtual mappy hours’ a few years ago.
> 
> I thought it was nice and I want to resume them.
> 
> Some topics for a next one:
> 
> * State of the map US — what would make you want to be there? Thinking about 
> presenting? Some details about the planning process
> * Imports — I feel like we’ve seen quite a few proposals lately. Opinions? 
> Did you submit a proposal and want to discuss?
> * Ask the board — I’ll invite someone from the board to attend for a Q&A
> * MapRoulette — If you all are interested I am happy to talk about the latest 
> features or walk you through how to set up a challenge.
> * your favorite topic, let me know.
> 
> How does next Thursday 6pm PDT / 9pm EDT sound? I’m open to alternative 
> times, if you’re interested in joining you get to help decide when we’ll do 
> it :)
> 
> There will be a video option (zoom) but you will also be able to dial-in if 
> you don’t fancy proprietary tools on your computer. I’ll send details once we 
> settle on a day and time.
> 
> Looking forward to chatting!
> 
> Martijn
> 

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Re: [Talk-us] California is too big :)

[Brian M Hamlin]

Hi OSM US List -

  California native and current resident here --
while implementing California urban planning analysis a few years ago, 
we used a grouping based on the transportation governance here. 
The grouping is shown graphically in a blog post [0]
 
  CA Landuse is governed at the county level, with associations of counties
for regional planning (water, public transportation). So the groups are
by county, without a doubt. 
 
  Intuitively, large metro areas are one group each - Sacramento area, 
San Francisco Bay Area, Los Angeles.   San Diego county stands alone. 
The remainder of the state has so few people, that very large areas are
just one group each - Central Coast, Sierras, Northern California (vast). 
 
   This might be a guide for some future OSM extracts.. 
County details on request. 
 
[0] http://blog.light42.com/wordpress/?p=1439

--
Brian M Hamlin
blog.light42.com

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER place confusion

[Brian M Hamlin]

 Hi All - while learning about the US Census a few years ago, I found a slide 
set (pdf) called  Understanding Place by Michael Ratcliffe. Geography Division 
of the US Census Bureau ..   maybe something in that talk would shed light 
here..   I have a copy and can send it on request... probably findable on the 
open net. 
 
  best regards from Berkeley

--
Brian M Hamlin
OSGeo California
blog.light42.com

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[Talk-us] Some questions about an area that’s been giving me difficulties and JOSM

[Chris J. M.]

Hello,

I’ve encountered a bunch of small questions all at once while trying to add 
detail to the parking lots between the McCoy Center, and the Polaris Towne 
Center (at https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/40.1424/-82.9873).  They are 
in two categories: specific to this location and more general JOSM workflow 
questions.

Specific to the Polaris area:

• The ring roads around Polaris Fashion Place and the McCoy center look like 
they should have the same prominence, but the Polaris ring is labelled as 
“unclassified” and the McCoy ring is “tertiary”—which one should they both be 
or does someone else local have a reason why they are different levels?  
(Related, there are some mall entrances that are labeled as unclassified on one 
side of a crossroad but service on the other, even though they have similar 
numbers of lanes and function on both sides)
• Certain tiles have different offset and it’s hard to blend the areas smoothly 
with imagery alone.  I’ve occasionally seen this elsewhere when editing and I’m 
not sure if it’s one specific tile that has a different offset or if someone 
accidentally dragged all the elements a meter or two off their actual location. 
 Unless I can get out there myself and make sufficiently accurate measurements, 
I’m assuming that it is the tile that is offset.  How do you transition from an 
offset tile to the rest of the map?
• Most of the parking lots I want to fill in already have an area with 
“amenity=parking” on top of them and are just missing their parking aisles and 
driveways.  However, these marked parking areas are often poorly-rectified and 
seem to get in the way of editing.  I do not want to delete them because 
they’re clearly not vandalism (there are actual parking lots there) and it will 
probably be way more work that I expect to recreate everything, but it would be 
nice to start from a fresh slate.  Should I go back through older edit sets of 
mine to add the area with amenity=parking around the areas where I added 
parking aisles, or should I consider that a low priority and let the parking 
aisles speak for themselves for now?  Should I mark the areas in the future?
• Finally, there are some parking garages of unknown height, but with a 
definite connection between their top floor and the surrounding driveways (all 
the parking lanes are visible) and a connection of unknown internal routing 
between the driveways and a lower level.  How should I map them: as buildings, 
roads, or a building stacked between roads marked as bridge or tunnel?

More general JOSM workflow questions:

• Best way to align oval-shaped ways?  Is this where W (way alignment mode) 
shines?   Currently I drag the plus signs to the center of the road, then use 
the align in circle shortcut for small subsets of adjacent nodes to make the 
thing smooth and round.
• What is the best way to edit buildings that aren’t well-rectified but also 
contain curvy regions or wings that do not meet at 90°?  The orthagonalize tool 
doesn’t work that well (blends buildings into unrecognizable diamond shapes if 
I only select some nodes and not ways—it would be nice if it could snap to 15° 
increments instead of only looking for right angles).  I usually just part the 
way where the circular and rectangular portions meet, use the respective 
orthagonalize or circle function, then join them (but that doesn’t work as 
nicely for buildings that are intersecting rectangles).

Some bugs (with links to the tickets I filed):

• Has anyone else encountered JOSM becoming unresponsive to a number of 
keyboard shortcuts for no discernible reason? Specifically: undo, delete, most 
shortcuts involving modifier (command, option, etc…) keys don’t seem to work if 
I have JOSM open for too long.  I suspect it has to do something with Java UI 
getting confused over which window is active, but have no clue how I’d make it 
reproducible.  It just seems to be that after a while, undo and delete just 
stop working unless I use the edit menu. #15787 (the switching between apps 
isn’t as reliable of a way to reproduce this as I originally thought when 
opening the ticket)
• Possibly related, JOSM ignores all keyboard commands and menu entries after 
downloading new data until I close another dialogue box (typically I’ll click 
the add tag button and then close the box to get things working again): #15788

Thanks,
Chris
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Re: [Talk-us] Tiger Zip Data Removal Project (Update)

[m]

Hi Hans,

I sincerely hope you’ll reconsider because I know that you have a lot of 
positive energy to bring to the US community.

I think what you might take away from this is that a single thread on the 
mailing list is not always enough to gauge the temperature of the community. 
There are many mappers who are not on the mailing list at all or, like me, are 
on it but pay only occasional attention to it.  Once you start to get negative 
feedback on edits, I think it is a signal to pause and rethink, and perhaps 
spend some more time discussing. Not necessarily to give up! Criticism and 
negativity are cheap commodities on the internet, and OSM is no exception. 

I think there is value in your idea to remove redundant TIGER tags but perhaps 
a different approach is called for. Frederik had some good advice to share in 
that regard. Perhaps a more gentle way to go about it is to discuss extending 
the set of tags that are automatically removed when editing a TIGER way in JOSM 
(and iD?).

Best
Martijn


> On Jul 8, 2017, at 2:37 PM, Hans De Kryger  wrote:
> 
> So last month i started a discussion about a project i took on removing Tiger 
> zip data across the U.S. I brought it to the community after i received 
> concern from quite a few mappers in the U.S. After getting more unfriendly 
> changeset comments and messages in my inbox i'm officially done.  The Project 
> is done for good. Not really wanting to get in an argument daily with the 
> messages I've gotten in my mailbox. I've learned first hand just how 
> unfriendly the osm community can be. It makes me quite sad to see that side 
> of the it. I've been apart of osm for 4+ years and this type of response from 
> the community makes me never want to contribute ever again.
> 
> Regards,
> Hans
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Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-ca] Ferry durations

[m]

There were a few that one of my colleague added yesterday (look for *_telenav 
user names in the metadata, example https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/10853579 
 ) So if that completes the 
picture, great. If you want to check for other provinces, just replace the name 
in the overpass query.

There is a discussion thread emerging around tagging these durations that split 
off in talk-us. If you’re interested and not subscribed there I can cc this 
list again.

Martijn

> On Jul 12, 2017, at 2:03 PM, Alan Richards  wrote:
> 
> Are there any ferry routes without duration left? That overpass query shows 
> all the common ferry routes I know offhand in the province.
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, mailto:m...@rtijn.org>> 
> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Just to let you know, my map team colleagues have been adding a few 
> `duration` tags to ferry routes in BC yesterday. Since this was already 
> established practice, I am only mentioning it now. I am crossposting to 
> talk-us because I wanted to see if folks there have given any thought to 
> ferry duration tagging? The documented practice is to add duration=hh:mm to 
> the way that makes up the ferry route. If you think this is fun to map I 
> could add ferry routes without duration to MapRoulette.
> 
> Here is the current state of duration tags in BC: 
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/qlE 
> 
> Martijn
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferry durations

[m]

> On Jul 12, 2017, at 1:52 PM, m...@rtijn.org wrote:
> 
> I used to depend on a ferry for my commute[1] so the topic connects with me 
> as well.
> 
> Looking at how this is currently mapped, I see some shortcomings we might 
> want to address:
> * The duration is mostly mapped on the way, rather than the route=ferry 
> relation. Often the route is more than one way, wouldn’t it make more sense 
> to map duration as a tag on the relation?

Case in point, run this query and you see that the result is just the start / 
end stubs of the route, the ‘main’ ferry route way apparently has the duration 
tag: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/qlF

> * The duration can be different depending on time of day / direction. 
> Accounting for that may make the tagging unwieldy so I’m inclined to not deal 
> with that, but what are your thoughts?
> * Would it make sense to map hours / days of operation using the 
> opening_hours schema as well?
> 
> Martijn
> 
> [1] This was back in Amsterdam. There is a tunnel for motorized traffic to 
> the city, but the only option for cyclists and pedestrians (>50% of all 
> commutes!) is a ferry. It runs very frequently and the crossing is short, but 
> to optimize my commute I created a mobile web site that counted down to the 
> next departure, so I could quickly look up the time to the next departure so 
> I knew whether to pedal a little faster or slower. Defunct now but here is 
> the blog post for historical reference 
> https://oegeo.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/public-transit-schedule-encoding/ 
> <https://oegeo.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/public-transit-schedule-encoding/> 
> 
>> On Jul 12, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Nick Peihl > <mailto:nick.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Martijn,
>> 
>> As a resident of a ferry-served island in WA, I fully support adding this 
>> job to MapRoulette. Thanks!
>> 
>> Nick
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, mailto:m...@rtijn.org>> 
>> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Just to let you know, my map team colleagues have been adding a few 
>> `duration` tags to ferry routes in BC yesterday. Since this was already 
>> established practice, I am only mentioning it now. I am crossposting to 
>> talk-us because I wanted to see if folks there have given any thought to 
>> ferry duration tagging? The documented practice is to add duration=hh:mm to 
>> the way that makes up the ferry route. If you think this is fun to map I 
>> could add ferry routes without duration to MapRoulette.
>> 
>> Here is the current state of duration tags in BC: 
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/qlE <http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/qlE>
>> 
>> Martijn
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferry durations

[m]

I used to depend on a ferry for my commute[1] so the topic connects with me as 
well.

Looking at how this is currently mapped, I see some shortcomings we might want 
to address:
* The duration is mostly mapped on the way, rather than the route=ferry 
relation. Often the route is more than one way, wouldn’t it make more sense to 
map duration as a tag on the relation?
* The duration can be different depending on time of day / direction. 
Accounting for that may make the tagging unwieldy so I’m inclined to not deal 
with that, but what are your thoughts?
* Would it make sense to map hours / days of operation using the opening_hours 
schema as well?

Martijn

[1] This was back in Amsterdam. There is a tunnel for motorized traffic to the 
city, but the only option for cyclists and pedestrians (>50% of all commutes!) 
is a ferry. It runs very frequently and the crossing is short, but to optimize 
my commute I created a mobile web site that counted down to the next departure, 
so I could quickly look up the time to the next departure so I knew whether to 
pedal a little faster or slower. Defunct now but here is the blog post for 
historical reference 
https://oegeo.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/public-transit-schedule-encoding/ 
 

> On Jul 12, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Nick Peihl  wrote:
> 
> Hi Martijn,
> 
> As a resident of a ferry-served island in WA, I fully support adding this job 
> to MapRoulette. Thanks!
> 
> Nick
> 
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, mailto:m...@rtijn.org>> 
> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Just to let you know, my map team colleagues have been adding a few 
> `duration` tags to ferry routes in BC yesterday. Since this was already 
> established practice, I am only mentioning it now. I am crossposting to 
> talk-us because I wanted to see if folks there have given any thought to 
> ferry duration tagging? The documented practice is to add duration=hh:mm to 
> the way that makes up the ferry route. If you think this is fun to map I 
> could add ferry routes without duration to MapRoulette.
> 
> Here is the current state of duration tags in BC: 
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/qlE 
> 
> Martijn
> 
> 
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[Talk-us] Ferry durations

[m]

Hi all, 

Just to let you know, my map team colleagues have been adding a few `duration` 
tags to ferry routes in BC yesterday. Since this was already established 
practice, I am only mentioning it now. I am crossposting to talk-us because I 
wanted to see if folks there have given any thought to ferry duration tagging? 
The documented practice is to add duration=hh:mm to the way that makes up the 
ferry route. If you think this is fun to map I could add ferry routes without 
duration to MapRoulette.

Here is the current state of duration tags in BC: 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/qlE 

Martijn


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Re: [Talk-us] Best practice in Lane Editing 2

[m]

For the ‘dashed line’ center turn lanes: what you do makes sense to me too. I 
have used center_turn_lane=yes in the past, but that is not documented and I 
wouldn’t encourage it. This way it fits nicely into the lanes schema.

The turn lanes plugin seems to support this nicely: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8wmp5h2cn931pic/Screenshot%202017-06-19%2014.33.40.jpg?dl=0
 — even though the center lane is rarely marked with left turn arrows, as 
suggested by the turn lane style.

Martijn

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 5:20 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> In this case, with the dual-direction turn lane, I would label that with 
> lanes:both_ways=1 and turn:lanes:both_ways=left.  If the center lane has two 
> solid lines (making it a flush median), then lanes:both_ways=1 and 
> access:lanes:both_ways=no
> 
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 6:17 AM, Horea Meleg  > wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We 
> found some cases that looks like this (42.43651692568901, -83.51102781049859):
> 
> 
> 
> Our question is: what is the central lane used for and how do we map it?
> 
> Should we count it as a separate lane and have 3 lanes in this case (one for 
> each direction and one for both directions)
> 
> 
> 
> or have only 2, one for each direction?
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Horea Meleg
> 
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[Talk-us] Features for OpenStreetCam JOSM plugin?

[m]

Hi all, 

We’ve been steadily improving the JOSM plugin for OpenStreetCam. Recently we 
added the option to go to a nearby photo regardless of the trip that it’s part 
of. At lower zooms you can now see a line to see which ways have coverage. Also 
we added caching features that can be controlled using the plugin settings.

What features would you liked to see developed next?
What do you like / dislike about the plugin so far?

Thanks,
Martijn

PS1 If you have a Github account you can add requests there also: 
https://github.com/openstreetcam/josm-plugin/issues 
 
PS2 We’re happy to welcome code contributions of course!___
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Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-ca] Telenav mapping turn restrictions

[m]

James — Thanks. This means that at the very least we need to check on a 
jurisdiction by jurisdiction basis if these turns are allowed or not. 

Just as a data point, Google maps won’t let you make that turn either [1]. 
That’s not to argue that I am right in any way, just to show that false 
assumptions regarding turns are made outside of OSM.

[1] 
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/40.586229,-80.0446722/40.586796,-80.0438587/@40.5879274,-80.0482634,17.23z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0
 



> On Apr 3, 2017, at 9:31 PM, James Mast  wrote:
> 
> Martijn, that intersection for as long as I can remember, has allowed the 
> right turn @ the intersection and also via the slip lane.  The slip lane 
> being closed when StreetView drove by was indeed temporary.  They were using 
> it as a temporary staging area for construction vehicles for the bridge they 
> were replacing on Pine Creek Road (well since completed) that was on the 
> other side of the intersection.
> 
> -James
> From: Martijn van Exel 
> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 1:18:38 PM
> To: James Mast
> Cc: talk...@openstreetmap.org; OSM US
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Telenav mapping turn restrictions
>  
> James -- I could not find any OSC / Mapillary imagery at the location of your 
> example so I took a peek at <> google street view. What I see there is 
> that the slip road / ramp was (as of Aug 2016 -- temporarily?) closed to 
> traffic which may very well inform the allowed right turn at the 
> intersection? Or do you know this to be permanent? In this particular case, 
> based on the info I have, the _link way should have access=no and indeed no 
> restriction would be necessary. (Obviously I can't make those edits because 
> of <> above.)
> 
> I'm not saying that there cannot be exceptions to the general rule that 'when 
> there is a turn ramp one must use it', (and as I said before our team is not 
> adding these 'implicit' restrictions until we clear this up). What I am 
> looking for is more clarity (specifically in Canada but in the US also) as to 
> traffic regulations that would make adding these restrictions not only valid 
> but also a boost to the quality of OSM data. I would only want us to add 
> these if there is no confusion regarding correctness and there is added value 
> to adding them.
> 
> I'm cc-ing the US list as there are very similar traffic situations there and 
> I'm interested in clarifying the situation there as well.
> 
> Martijn
> 
>> On Apr 3, 2017, at 6:47 AM, James Mast > > wrote:
>> 
>> Martijn, with your example you gave back 3/30 [1], are you 100% sure that it 
>> still might be legal to right turn at the main intersection?  It might be if 
>> you haven't been there, even with the slip lane being there.
>> 
>> Case in point, if you were to have one of your mappers modify this 
>> intersection [2] with a 'no right turn' relation, you would be adding false 
>> information to the OSM database.  While there is a 'slip' lane for right 
>> turns, there is overhead signage past that slip lane leaving US-19 saying 
>> that you are allowed to make a right hand turn at the intersection.  So, [3] 
>> would be completely legal and would be prevented if a false relation were to 
>> be added here.
>> 
>> This is just something you can't be 100% sure of without visiting it in 
>> person, or have imagery from something like Mapillary to see it.  So, I can 
>> see why Andrew was upset about this.
>> 
>> -James
>> 
>> [1] 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car&route=40.66610,-111.86760;40.66386,-111.86464#map=18/40.66520/-111.86552
>>  
>> 
>> [2] 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car&route=40.58570%2C-80.04423%3B40.58680%2C-80.04410#map=19/40.58625/-80.04431
>>  
>> 
>> [3] 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=osrm_car&route=40.58614%2C-80.04461%3B40.58680%2C-80.04410#map=19/40.58648/-80.04457
>>  
>> 
>> From: Stewart C. Russell mailto:scr...@gmail.com>>
>> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 7:26:12 PM
>> To: talk...@openstreetmap.org 
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Telenav mapping turn restrictions
>>  
>> On 2017-03-31 04:29 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>> > … the engine
>> > may decide, lacking an explicit restriction, to take the non _link turn
>> > because it's faster even if that is an illegal turn. That is why we need
>> > these restrictions to be explicit in the data.
>> 
>> but … but — that's Tagging For The Map, or

Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] destination:street

[m]

Hi all (-tagging and talk-ca as this just relates to mapping locally here in 
the US),

Just to follow up on this, our team is starting to do some freeway exit tagging 
updates in the Detroit area and they are using destination:street — and the 
‘destination’ tagging schema in general — as discussed back in February on this 
thread. This is the start of some US editing projects that our team is going to 
be working on in the near future. We will be back with more detail on that 
soon. In the mean time, you can recognize any of our team members by their OSM 
usernames ending in _telenav. They are a friendly bunch[1] and eager to hear 
your comments on their work. You can also always reach out directly to me with 
questions or concerns.

Martijn

[1] here’s some of them: 
http://blog.improve-osm.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Map-2.jpg 


> On Feb 2, 2017, at 8:14 AM, Duane Gearhart  wrote:
> 
> Hey Martijn,
> 
> Apologies for my delay getting back to you.
> 
> As suggested - I added a link on the destination page [1]
> 
> For this location [2] the interchange information would look like this:
> destination=West Valley
> destination:ref=UT 201 West
> destination:street=1300 South;2100 South
> as updated here [3]
> Note how the destination:street values follow the OSM pattern of spelling out 
> street names. Also, the semicolon separated names are easily read into a a 
> list of exit branch street names.
> 
> If user would would continue and take exit 305C onto 1300 South [4] as 
> captured here [5]
> then the software can rank, sort, and collapse the consecutive exit 
> information - therefore, "1300 South" would take precedence over "2100 South"
> I briefly discussed this at SotM US 2015 [6] at 12:23 into the video.
> 
> I can follow-up with you after the OSM data has been processed with recent 
> edits.
> 
> Regards,
> Duane
> 
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination#See_also 
> 
> [2] http://openstreetcam.org/details/8230/168 
> 
> [3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/37192513 
> 
> [4] http://openstreetcam.org/details/8230/181 
> 
> [5] http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/32028378 
> 
> [6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwglqOV6I9M 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
> Hi Duane, 
> 
> Thanks. I had overlooked the examples page (even though I searched the OSM 
> wiki for the exact term!)
> I do appreciate the granularity of the destination:street tagging and would 
> encourage the Telenav mappers to use it as well then, but we like to stick to 
> conventions that are properly documented (not only in an example page). Since 
> there is significant usage in N-America and some other regions [1], we could 
> add it to the destination tag page [2]? 
> 
> My only issue with destination:street is that there’s still ambiguity when 
> more than one street is on the sign, like here [3]. Would that then be 
> destination:street=1300 So.;2100 So. and destination:ref=201 and 
> destination:West Valley? The advantage of having a separate tag partly 
> vanishes when you still need the semicolon separator?
> 
> Martijn van Exel
> 
> [1] http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/destination%3Astreet#map
>  
> [ 2] 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination 
> 
> [3] http://openstreetcam.org/details/8230/168 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
>> On Jan 19, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Duane Gearhart > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Martijn,
>> 
>> It looks correct to me - using the destination:street allows users to know 
>> if the ramp is branching onto the specified street name vs. heading toward a 
>> street name - examples are located here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Exit_Info#Road_name_Example 
>> 
>> 
>> Mappers have been using in the US too:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ln4 
>> 
>> Here is an example way:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/11502773#map=19/39.21853/-76.65894 
>> 
>> 
>> You can see how it is used in the directions:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=mapzen_car&route=39.22079%2C-76.65959%3B39.22139%2C-76.65428
>>  
>> 

[Talk-us] Building Footprints in CA

[Brian M Hamlin]

Hi All -
 
  I have been working with 2D building footprints from LA and other counties 
here in Berkeley on a research project,
using a PostGIS/GDAL stack and a libosimum tool, among others.. 
The project is broadly named  "California OpenData ECN" .. I am committed to an 
open data process. Not much more to say at this moment,
but I am reading this and want to contribute in some way, when thats possible. 
 
  cheers
--
Brian M Hamlin
OSGeo California Chapter
blog.light42.com

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[Talk-us] MapRoulette news

[m]

Hi all, 
There has been quite a bit of activity in MapRoulette lately. Both small fixes 
to MapRoulette itself and also new challenges and folks working hard to fix 
stuff in OSM through MapRoulette. So I decided to capture that in a newsletter 
and add some links to interesting / new challenges. I am thinking about doing 
such a newsletter periodically. If you’re interested to get them in your inbox 
in the future, there’s a link in the post for that. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/40635 

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Re: [Talk-us] MapRoulette questionnaire

[m]

Hi all, 

I want to thank you for the responses so far. I received 34 and all of them are 
helpful in some way. I will leave the questionnaire up for a few more days, so 
if you still want to participate, please do. There is a vintage mappy prize for 
one random participant. 

Martijn

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 11:34 AM, m...@rtijn.org wrote:
> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> I put together a small questionnaire about MapRoulette. Your opinions and 
> ideas are really important for future development of the project, so if you 
> have used MapRoulette, I would appreciate a few minutes of your time to fill 
> it out. Anyone who leaves their email is automatically enrolled in a mappy 
> prize draw. Here is the link: https://goo.gl/forms/J8yhWC3IBsUZmTjS2 
> <https://goo.gl/forms/J8yhWC3IBsUZmTjS2> . If you don’t like Google Forms you 
> can also send me your thoughts and ideas via email.
> 
> Martijn
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

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[Talk-us] MapRoulette questionnaire

[m]

Hi all, 

I put together a small questionnaire about MapRoulette. Your opinions and ideas 
are really important for future development of the project, so if you have used 
MapRoulette, I would appreciate a few minutes of your time to fill it out. 
Anyone who leaves their email is automatically enrolled in a mappy prize draw. 
Here is the link: https://goo.gl/forms/J8yhWC3IBsUZmTjS2 
 . If you don’t like Google Forms you 
can also send me your thoughts and ideas via email.

Martijn___
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[Talk-us] Fresno Parcels Deletion proposal

[Brian M Hamlin]

Hi All -

  people are invited to see a blog post on the topic of Fresno County 
landuse=residential legal records, aka PARCEL. 

  You can find the blog address in my signature.
   thanks very much
 
---
Brian M Hamlin
OSGeo California Chapter
blog.light42.com



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Re: [Talk-us] ​Mapping Southern Maryland: A new local group

[T M]

Traci Bishop is her name tjbis...@umes.edu
Tom
 GIS 4 LIFE ! 


 On Monday, June 29, 2015 8:20 PM, Eric Christensen 
 wrote:
   

 On Saturday, June 27, 2015 04:28:26 PM T M wrote:
> Did you contact Univ of MD Eastern Shore? If not I can put you in contact
> with their GIS professor?

I haven't, mostly because it's outside of our intended geographic area of 
interest*, but I certainly wouldn't be against it.  One of the people that 
showed interest is a student at UMD in College Park so we'll try to make 
contacts that way as well.

Thanks for the offer.  I'd very much enjoy talking with others and introducing 
OSM as a way to teach GIS/cartography.

--Eric


* Southern Maryland generally applies to the areas of Calvert, St. Mary's, 
Charles, and southern PG and Anne Arundel counties.  I am in no way limiting 
membership and would happily expand to other areas if there was enough 
interest.  The Eastern Shore, while 'close' geographically would require a 
boat ride to actually be close.  :)

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Re: [Talk-us] ​Mapping Southern Maryland: A new local group

[T M]

EricDid you contact Univ of MD Eastern Shore?  If not I can put you in contact with their GIS professor?  Tom MuellerSent from Yahoo Mail for iPad






From:

Alan Bragg ;

To:

 ; 

Subject:

Re: [Talk-us]	​Mapping Southern Maryland: A new local group

Sent:

Sat, Jun 27, 2015 5:08:40 PM





Eric, I'm not ready to join your group but I'm willing to put in a couple hours armchair mapping once you have a specific task. Just let me know.Thanks for posting.Alan BraggBedford MA
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:57:54 -0400
From: "Eric H. Christensen" 
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Cc: mappin...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Talk-us] ​​Mapping Southern Maryland: A new local group
Message-ID: <20150627015754.gb3...@eric.home.christensenplace.us>
Greetings,

A couple of weeks ago I reached out to many of the OSM account holders that are in my area hoping they would be interested in creating a local community for mapping southern Maryland.  I found a few victims and so we're pressing on!

I'm still working on all the logistics (website, listserv, etc) but I have created a wiki page[0] where I'll start collecting information regarding the community.  If you'd like to join us please put your name on the wiki page.  I hope to have all the infrastructure figured out over the coming days.

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapping_Southern_Maryland

Thanks!

- --Eric


--

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:13:29 -0700
From: Clifford Snow 
To: "Eric H. Christensen" 
Cc: mappin...@googlegroups.com, talk-us 
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Mapping Southern Maryland: A new local group
Eric,
Way to go! If you need any help organizing let us know. There is a good
lighting talk at this years SOTM-US on conducting a Mapathon by Robin
Tolochko, UW Madison. The talk is online at
http://stateofthemap.us/lightning-talks-sun/

Clifford









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Re: [Talk-us] Ghost suburbs

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

highway=track is fine if the road is open to the public, but quite often 
incomplete subdivisions are not.

Richard Welty  wrote:

>On 11/17/12 6:56 AM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> While doing the Maproulette, I came upon a large area east of
>
>> El Paso 
>> (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.7234&lon=-106.1106&zoom=13)
>with 
>> hundreds of neatly laid-out roads tagged "residential" that are only 
>> weathered tracks. Apparently, there were plans to build extensive 
>> suburban areas, but they never were built.
>> How should this be tagged?  Just make them all tracks?
>> Apologies if this has been discussed before
>if they didn't exist, the highway=proposed would be ok.
>but since they exist, i'd go with highway=track
>if they never got signs, i'd remove the names, or change the tag to
>name_proposed or something like that, but you can't really tell that
>from the maproulette vantage point.


-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


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Re: [Talk-us] Ghost suburbs

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

My preference has been

highway=proposed
proposed=residential

for ghost subdivisions around Chicago.

Charlotte Wolter  wrote:

>Hello,
>
> While doing the Maproulette, I came upon a large area east 
>of El Paso 
>(http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.7234&lon=-106.1106&zoom=13) 
>with hundreds of neatly laid-out roads tagged "residential" that are 
>only weathered tracks. Apparently, there were plans to build 
>extensive suburban areas, but they never were built.
> How should this be tagged?  Just make them all tracks?
> Apologies if this has been discussed before


-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


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Re: [Talk-us] Chicago "L" updates

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 2012-11-15 14:37, Ben Miller wrote:
> 
> One specific question: Since the Brown line is a loop at one end,
> it doesn't have two defined terminals, although it definitely has
> two directions (towards Kimball and towards the Loop). Does anyone
> have any guidance as to where the two route relations should
> begin/end? As it is I set Merchandise Mart as the final station for
> the Loop-bound train, since the operators usually change the
> train's destination sign to "Kimball" after leaving the Mart.
> Likewise the first station for the Kimball-bound relation is
> Washington/Wells. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but if there's a
> standard way of treating routes that loop back on themselves, I'm
> unaware of it.

I think this looks just fine. Purple line (at least the rush hour
express variant) will have the same structure, and I assume the Orange
Line must do something similar (perhaps at Roosevelt), as will Pink
(at Morgan/Lake?).

> Lastly, I doubt I have the patience to update the whole CTA system,
> so if anyone else has an interest in pitching in, go ahead. I know
> there are at least a couple more Chicago-area mappers who ride the
> L. The USGS Large-Scale imagery in Chicago is very detailed and
> more recent than the highest zoom available through Bing.

I'm way out in the 'burbs, but /might/ be able to pitch in (Blue Line
is the one I ride the most).

Should this be extended to Metra? The Metra lines still need work in
general (I fixed up the Milwaukee District West and Electric District
lines a while back, but I haven't touched any other relations since).


- -- 
Kristian M Zoerhoff
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Re: [Talk-us] 'creative' mapping

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On 2012-11-13 09:11, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> I got this from a MapRoulette user:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.414586&lon=-84.815333&zoom=18&layers=M
> 
> Anyone know what this is about?

>From open.mapquest.com satellite view, it appears to be a corn maze.
There should probably be a business tag here for the attraction. As
these change every season, I sure hope this user plans on keeping this
up-to-date.

-- 
Kristian M Zoerhoff


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Re: [Talk-us] Schizophrenic highway

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 2012-09-14 18:02, Charlotte Wolter wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm working on US 50 near Trenton, Ill. Here's the location: 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=38.61248&lon=-89.68529&zoom=16
>
> 
It looks like, at one point there were plans to turn this into a
> motorway. In two spots in a 25-mile stretch, intersections have
> been turned into cloverleafs and the highway divided. In other
> locations, roads that used to intersect US 50 have been turned into
> overpasses. There are even a couple of bridges for a second lane
> but no evidence of any construction work actually to build that
> lane. The vast majority of the highway is still two-lane blacktop. 
> So how does one tag this, as a primary road that just has a couple
> of cloverleafs?

A similar situation with US 20 in Freeport, IL is tagged trunk, and
I'd go with that here as well, though primary is not an incorrect
choice. IDOT has been building these staged bypasses for years now;
they start out 2 lanes, but with 4 lanes' worth of ROW reserved for
future construction of an at-grade expressway (and overpasses sized to
match, as you noted).

Motorway would be an incorrect choice, in my opinion.


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Re: [Talk-us] Consensus on "SR" for state route versus state abbreviation?

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Paul Johnson  wrote:

>On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Charlotte Wolter
>wrote:
>
>> **Was there ever consensus on whether to use "SR" (or some
>> variation on that) for state highways versus an abbreviation of the
>state
>> name ("CA" or "NY"). I remember that there was discussion, but I
>don't
>> remember if there was consensus.
>>
>
>The postal abbreviation for the state name is the preferred method for
>state route refs on ways,
Michigan is a notable exception to these rules. State highways are all of the 
form M-nnn, *not* MI-nnn.
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Re: [Talk-us] Scenic/Historic byways

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 11:02:32PM -0400, Richard Welty wrote:
> >
> there are a couple of Heritage Corridors in NY State, i'm not aware of any
> efforts to tag them as such.

Wisconsin has an actual state network of "Rural Roads" that are numbered. I 
haven't checked to see if anyone created a network for them yet, but I don't 
believe it exists.

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Re: [Talk-us] Fixing TIGER street name abbreviations

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 04:47:37AM -0400, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
> I've added direction expansion into a new version, and thrown it up as a gist:
> 
> https://gist.github.com/2656735
> 
> 
> I don't treat direction prefixes and suffixes any differently- I
> haven't seen an example where there is both a prefix and a suffix in
> the name, and they're the same as the suffix.

You might want to check Minneapolis/St Paul. They have some really bizarre 
directional combinations that could give you heartburn.
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Smooth shoulder intended for cycling

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 09:15:49PM -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> I'm wondering what the best way would be to tag a good-quality
> shoulder that acts essentially as an undesignated bike lane, in that
> you can use it but it is not required. Current Florida DOT policy is
> to use these on rural roads, with marked bike lanes only when there
> is a lane to the right. For example here: 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=30.605358,-86.950672&spn=0.008255,0.016512&gl=us&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=30.605241,-86.950558&panoid=X4-X3CdhvVO_ptMWbvB8SA&cbp=12,330.83,,0,9.24
> One can choose to ride either in the right lane or on the shoulder
> beyond the intersection.
> 
> One regional mapper uses cycleway=shoulder for this, but I see that
> as sub-optimal, since it's primarily a shoulder, not a cycleway. It
> would be like putting cycleway=sidewalk whenever there's a smooth
> paved sidewalk.
> 
> On the other hand, shoulder=yes or shoulder=paved says nothing about
> the quality of the shoulder. Should there be a minimum width for a
> shoulder (FDOT's standard is 4 feet)?

cycleway=shoulder doesn't seem right to me, either, and I'm a fairly 
frequent cyclist (or was, before kids). 

*If* we are going to mark shoulders, I think we need a series of tags, such 
as:

shoulder:surface=paved/unpaved
shoulder:width=4 ft
shoulder:rumble_strips:yes/no/aashto (this is very important for
  cyclists, as continuous
  strips render the shoulder
  useless for cycling, and yes,
  there is an AASHTO standard)

Has anyone run this by the OpenCycleMap folks? They're the only likely data 
consumer for this information at present.

Alternatively, maybe cycleway needs an "unmarked lane" setting for these 
situations, though that would imply the local authorities are intending for 
cyclists to use the shoulder, rather than just tolerating their presence 
(the usual situation).

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Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 03:52:35PM -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> On 4/12/2012 2:59 PM, Phil! Gold wrote:
> >* Minh Nguyen  [2012-04-12 10:06 -0700]:
> >>There's an ALT I-75 that needs its own sequence file
> >
> >I had no idea there were alternate Interstates.  I added it under
> >network=US:I:Alternate, ref=75.  (Right now, it's rendering as regular
> >I-75.)
> 
> Sounds like a bug in the rendering.
> 
> 
> However, I wouldn't necessarily oppose a separate network tag in
> this case, since it's clearly not part of the Interstate Highway
> System. (The same would apply to business Interstates.)
> 
> Michigan has some 'emergency' Interstates that are essentially
> detours, but are permanently signed:
> http://www.stopandgo.org/gallery/trafficsigns/Emergency_plaque.html

Yeah, those are odd. What the description on that page fails to mention is 
that I-94 also passes by the Cook Nuclear Power Plant at Bridgman, so it's 
not just snow MDOT is worried about :-)
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 08:56:17PM -0700, Minh Nguyen wrote:
> Ng?y 2012-04-05 5:46 AM, Phil! Gold vi?t:
> >* Phil! Gold  [2012-04-05 08:14 -0400]:
> >>* Minh Nguyen  [2012-04-04 11:54 -0700]:
> >>>Looks like the Indiana Toll Road has no relation yet.
> >>
> >>That's fine.  We don't have a shield for it yet either.  :)
> >
> >Ah.  And that's because my visit to Wikipedia left me unsure what the
> >current design for the Toll Road's shield was.  Any pointers would be
> >appreciated.
> 
> As of a few years ago, it was a green circle with two Indianas. [1]
> The orange logo was introduced in 2007, but I don't know if they've
> started to use it in signage or just the toll plazas.

When I was last on the toll road in January, the guide signs were still the 
old green circles. I won't be back that way until June or July for another 
check, though.

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Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 12:07:57PM -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> On 4/3/2012 11:59 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> >That just reminded me... Chicago and Tulsa have city routes.
> 
> I'm not aware of any such routes in Chicago. Are you thinking of the
> address numbers that are prominently posted on signs?

That's all I can think of, and I'm in the metro area. Unless he's thinking 
of Chicago's portions of Cook County Highways, but those are spottily 
signed, even outside the city limits. 

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Re: [Talk-us] Using TIGER to find missing road segments in OSM after license change

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:53:55AM -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> On 3/29/2012 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> >I'm going to look at this same problem for Salt Lake County just to see
> >if any different issues arise for a different geography, and hope to
> >provide some more input soon.
> 
> It would be useful to test an area where the TIGER data is rather
> imprecise and the OSM data has been fixed to match aerials. Orange
> County, FL was like this as of whatever TIGER data was imported, but
> the latest data may be much better. If the latest TIGER data is
> improved, you might be able to test with the older TIGER data.

Since Ian is already in Cook County, IL, he can move next door to McHenry 
County, which I spent ages fixing up over the last year or so. Cook County 
itself still has a lot of unfixed TIGER roads, especially in its southern 
half.

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Re: [Talk-us] Contacting high-impact undecided users in the US

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2012 at 07:28:03AM -0500, Josh Doe wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Josh Doe  wrote:
> > For starters I tried to find one of the users, David Speakman, and
> > after a bit of searching have found his LinkedIn page, two domains
> > registered to him, from which I got his email, phone number, and
> > address. Anyone familiar with Mountain View, CA or Fort Wayne, IN (his
> > two big edit areas) willing to contact him? If so I'll send his info.
> 
> I sent an email to this user, and not only did he accept, but he's
> made nearly 30 changes in the past 19 hours since he accepted! For
> reference, here's the text I sent, based on one from Simon Poole:

I just got in contact with elliskev, and he accepted as well, so a large 
chunk of Michigan just dropped off my list.

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Re: [Talk-us] Contacting high-impact undecided users in the US

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 08:26:56AM -0600, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 07:25:27AM -0500, Josh Doe wrote:
> > 
> > For starters I tried to find one of the users, David Speakman, and
> > after a bit of searching have found his LinkedIn page, two domains
> > registered to him, from which I got his email, phone number, and
> > address. Anyone familiar with Mountain View, CA or Fort Wayne, IN (his
> > two big edit areas) willing to contact him? If so I'll send his info.
> 
> I made a cursory attempt to contact him, but work has decided to expand to 
> fill my spare time. I can try to contact him via LinkedIn, if you can be 
> sure it's the right David (there seemed to be several when I searched).

I also tried to contact elliskev, bruck4, and several others, but again, it 
was just a cursory attempt, as I found damage in the Great Lakes region.

Is it worth trying to get moonwashed to change his/her mind about declining?

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Re: [Talk-us] Contacting high-impact undecided users in the US

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 07:25:27AM -0500, Josh Doe wrote:
> 
> For starters I tried to find one of the users, David Speakman, and
> after a bit of searching have found his LinkedIn page, two domains
> registered to him, from which I got his email, phone number, and
> address. Anyone familiar with Mountain View, CA or Fort Wayne, IN (his
> two big edit areas) willing to contact him? If so I'll send his info.

I made a cursory attempt to contact him, but work has decided to expand to 
fill my spare time. I can try to contact him via LinkedIn, if you can be 
sure it's the right David (there seemed to be several when I searched).

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Re: [Talk-us] Finding new roads

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Sat, Feb 04, 2012 at 05:07:38PM -0500, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> On 1/16/2012 7:48 PM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> >I believe that OSm's most usefull attribute is to be up to date.
> >
> >The only real way to do this is with a local mapper but bringing
> >the USA up to Tiger 2011 up-to-datedness would be a great start.
> 
> I've recently been using another way of finding new roads:
> subdivision plats. If your county has recent public records online,
> simply go through the recent ones and find any with new roads. The
> plats also give names (except sometimes in the case of an apartment
> complex, where it's all private property).

I've been using these for a while as well, but watch out for:

1. Roads whose names were changed by local ordinance after platting, 
   frequently to honor some politician.

2. Roads that are platted, but never built because the money runs out.

3. Roads that are built, but later abandoned. We have a lot of these along 
   the Fox River NW of Chicago where old subdivisions were built in 
   floodplains and were later bought up and bulldozed by one gov't agency or 
   another.

2 and 3 are easily solved by cross-referencing with satellite imagery, but 1 
can be tricky. This is where TIGER 2011 can come in handy.

Kane County, IL actually has subdivision plats all the way back to the 1850s 
online, which can be pretty cool to look at in their own right. 

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Re: [Talk-us] LA and other license changeover challenged areas.

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 03:59:15PM -0800, Bryce2 Nesbitt wrote:
>
> pubic records searches)?

Unless you work for the TSA, I sincerely hope you meant public records 
searches :-)

If you do work for the TSA, carry on.

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Re: [Talk-us] LA and other license changeover challenged areas.

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 11:27:56PM +0100, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> 
> Fort Wayne, IN (also campus)

I can start working on Ft Wayne. I'm already working around Chicago & 
Milwaukee, and was going to hit Grand Rapids, MI next, so this is in my 
general blast zone.

> Of course, you can also still try to contact mappers who haven't
> accepted (yet), but time is short and there's a lot to be done if we
> want to retain a decent map of these areas after Apr 1.

I have a whopping 5% response rate thus far, contacting mappers in and 
around Chicago. There's one flat-out decliner that I'm working to map 
around, and a lot of little cleanup in general.
 
> A remap-a-thon is called for, perhaps?

Probably. I'd propose everyone on list drop all their other projects and 
remap like mad badgers for the next 8 weeks.

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER 2011 Road Tiles

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 06:40:27PM -0600, Ian Dees wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
> 
> > I got it working in Potlatch 2 [*], but as someone else mentioned, the
> > white
> > layer is invisible on Potlatch's default manilla background. The
> > black-outlined text labels are fine.
> 
> I added black outlines to the road lines, too. It looks lightly funny where
> roads come together, but that will improve as I figure out how to better
> draw those lines. Let me know if that change helps or hurts.

That helps tremendously. Thanks!

Now, off to work on my mission to finish cleaning up McHenry County, IL.

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER 2011 Road Tiles

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 12:11:49PM -0600, Ian Dees wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> In order to assist with road name checking I've set up a Mapnik layer
> rendering from TIGER 2011 ROADS data. It consists of a transparent tile
> with a white line (of varying thickness for the different MTFCC's) for the
> road and white text for the road's full name. I did this with JOSM in mind
> (which will stack imagery layers). I haven't tested it in P2 but would be
> happy to set up a different style for users of P2. It's designed for higher
> zooms and I don't do anything particular for low zooms. In fact it looks
> pretty noisy and slow, but it still works.
> 
> The JOSM TMS URL is http://{switch:a,b,c}.
> tile.openstreetmap.us/tiger2011_roads/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.png
> 
> I have grand plans to create vector layers as well (to allow for
> spot-importing of TIGER data), but I don't have time to do that currently.
> Let me know if you have any ideas to make it better.

I got it working in Potlatch 2 [*], but as someone else mentioned, the white 
layer is invisible on Potlatch's default manilla background. The 
black-outlined text labels are fine.

Otherwise, it looks awesome. Nice work!



* As http://tile.openstreetmap.us/tiger2011_roads/$z/$x/$y.png in the 
Background menu. 

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Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 12:06:37PM -0500, Richard Welty wrote:
> On 1/13/12 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> >If your own area is clean, please consider helping out in more heavily
> >affected areas.
> >
> The Capital District of NY is in pretty good shape and i cleaned up the
> things that were going to be the worst problems already.
> 
> i know Martijn has a bunch of issues out in the SLC area, so i'm
> volunteering to take assignments from him to do cleanups out there.
> 
> i suggest more of us should assess our areas and then either seek
> help or offer to help.

I'm doing this in the Chicago region now. I have stumbled onto one really 
odd changeset, though, and could use some assistance; it appears the 
original creator has deleted their OSM account:

http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=3869570
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/143258

Am I reading the history correctly? What do we do in thic case?

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Re: [Talk-us] Women trust GPS, drive SUV into Lake

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 06:15:01AM -0400, Mike N wrote:
> 
> http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f225/women-trust-gps-drive-suv-into-lake-81264/
> 
>   I did check the OSM map to be sure there were no non-existing
> roads shown crossing the lake.

I did see a post mentioning that there appears to be an abandoned roadbed 
through the slough; one would hate to see that leak through into a GPS, or 
into OSM. 

How often do folks find abandoned roads in OSM? I had to tag a bunch along 
the Fox River here in the Chicago area, as the land was bought up by the 
government after repeated floods kept wiping houses out. TIGER apparently 
hadn't caught up yet (surprise!).

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Re: [Talk-us] Women trust GPS, drive SUV into Lake

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 06:15:01AM -0400, Mike N wrote:
> 
> http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f225/women-trust-gps-drive-suv-into-lake-81264/
> 
>   I did check the OSM map to be sure there were no non-existing
> roads shown crossing the lake.

The *claim* the GPS directed them into the lake, but I've yet to see any 
indication of what GPS or what maps they had, or why they couldn't be 
bothered to notice the large body of water through the windshield.

But yeah, making sure OSM is clean is always a good idea :-)


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Re: [Talk-us] GPS overreliance anecdotes (WAS: Women trust GPS, drive SUV into Lake)

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 05:28:29AM -0700, Craig Hinners wrote:
>
> No matter, he insisted on obeying his GPS and ignoring me. I bit my 
> tongue, what with being the new guy and all. Three wrong turns, two missed
> expressway exits, and one illegal u-turn later, we arrived at the 
> restaurant. Fifteen minutes late.

Sounds like he did a poor job of obeying his GPS. Blame where blame is due.

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Re: [Talk-us] Categorizing Stores/Restaurants

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 07:52:15PM +, dion_d...@comcast.net wrote:
> Businesses don't make it easy when they go by multiple names.  Is it IBM 
> or International Business Machines?
> 
> I'm sure you'll find similar issues with punctuation.  IBM or I.B.M.?  

Only the New York Times insists on I.B.M. Even we at the company just call 
it IBM. 

> In your example of QFC, I'd tag it name=QFC and maybe throw in an 
> alternate_name= or note=.

That sounds like good advice.

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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:56:51AM -0400, Richard Welty wrote:
> On 4/13/11 10:54 AM, Mike N wrote:
> >On 4/13/2011 10:44 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>   network="US:CA:Orange"
>   + ref="CR S18"
> >>I'd drop the CR prefix since that's more of a network identifier than a
> >>reference number.
> >
> >
> >  Most Interstates, US Highways and most state highways include
> >the network identifier.   Why should this be dropped for the
> >county roads?

> ways vs. relations. we need the identifier on ways because of the
> data consumers
> that expect to render directly. for relations, we should in theory
> be only including
> the actual reference number.

Isn't that just tagging for the renderer?

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[Talk-us] County road network relations (was: REF tags for State Highways on ways)

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Sat, Apr 09, 2011 at 10:42:43AM -0400, Richard Weait wrote:
> 
> ref=number portion only
> network=countrycode_statecode_[location details as 
> required]networkcode_variant
> 
> Interstate 95. ref=95; network=us_i
> US 66 historic. ref=66; network=us_us_historic
> York Regional Road 8. ref=8; network=ca_on_york

What's the consensus for county roads in the US?

Right now, my home county (Kane, IL) has a very well mapped and signed 
county road network, but the data is buried in the name_1 tag in OSM, thanks 
to TIGER. I've planned to move these to relations, but I haven't seen any 
other county-level networks, so I'd like to get the syntax right before I 
dive in.

Would it be:

Big Timber Road. network=us_il_kane

I don't want ref tags on these, as the shields will quickly get too 
cluttered in Mapnik.

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Re: [Talk-us] REF tags for State Highways on ways

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Fri, Apr 08, 2011 at 02:03:25PM -0500, Nathan Mills wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 14:11:49 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> >On 4/8/2011 2:00 PM, James Mast wrote:
> >>I just thought I would throw this out there so this can be
> >>settled once
> >>and for all. Which ref tag setup do you think should be used for
> >>State
> >>Highways on ways (not relations)? "PA-44" or "44".
> >There's a third way: use the correct abbreviation. So Florida, if a
> >prefix is used, would have SR, not FL. Pennsylvania, on the other
> >hand, would use PA.
> 
> IMO, the state's postal abbreviation followed by the route number
> should be used. This makes them easily distinguished from US or

But this is not always correct. In Michigan, for example, all state highways 
are named M-nn, with M- being part of the road's actual name in many places. 
It is never, ever, written MI-nn.

States like Wisconsin get tricky, too. "Wis nn" is common, but so is the 
much older "STH nn" (for State Trunk Highway). 

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Re: [Talk-us] default to potlatch 1?

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 08:07:30AM -0700, jeremy jozwik wrote:
> 
> might ask why would you want to do that, well this morning i was
> adding addr:??? to the map.
> everytime i completed a address collection i would click a new point
> and reload the previous point information.
> then add the new addr:housenumber tag and update the addr:full.
> however potlatch 2 would always retain the reloaded points
> information. took me a while to realize what was happening and by then
> i had an entire street of addr:housenumber: 112. which...  was
> annoying.

I got bit by that this morning as well. Seems to be a new bug in Potlatch 2, 
as it wasn't happening to me on Friday.

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER edited map updated with Toby's suggestion

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 01:55:57AM +0100, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> On 25 January 2011 00:57, Alan Mintz  wrote:
> >
> > In summary, I propose to add the following requirements to the existing
> > filter for turning a feature red:
> > - Must have tiger:name_base tag
> 
> I'd suggest tiger:reviewed=no which is kind of what the tag was for.

Can we really count on that being set correctly? I very rarely remember that 
tag, and I've edited a fair amount of TIGER roads in my area of Illinois.

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Re: [Talk-us] Creating relations for abandoned railway lines

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:06:44PM +0100, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> On 10 January 2011 17:23, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Kristian M Zoerhoff
> >  wrote:
> >> type = route
> >> route = train
> >> operator = Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co.
> >> abandoned = yes
> >>
> >> It's that last tag I'm unsure of. Is abandoned = yes allowed/understood in
> >> relations?
> >
> > I think what you want to use is route=railway, not route=train. The
> > latter would include trackage (if any) owned by other companies that
> > the E&BE used to reach downtown terminals, while the former would be
> > the single line owned and operated by the E&BE.
> 
> At some point route=historic was a preset or on the wiki (I don't
> remember), I think it would work better here.
> 
> Something like:
> route=historic
> historic=railway
> following the convention of avoiding misleading the tools, which
> usually just look at the one tag that interests them (route=railways
> for example).

I like this; it's certainly more accurate than saying abandoned=yes on the 
relation (which is incorrect, anyway; the ways are abandoned, but the 
relationship between them still holds). And not confusing the tools is 
always a good thing (I do engineering software support for a living, so I'm 
painfully aware of what happens when garbage goes in).

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Re: [Talk-us] Creating relations for abandoned railway lines

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:24:27AM -0500, Richard Weait wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Kristian M Zoerhoff
>  wrote:
> > Hi, all.
> >
> > I've been working on adding some abandoned railway lines in my area, and
> > I've been wondering how to group them together. The line I'm working on
> > right now (the former Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co. line) has been re-used
> > in some areas as public streets, bike paths, service roads, and even a
> > railway museum, so I've had to break the line into quite a few ways. I'd
> > like to group them back together with a relation, but I'm not sure if
> > anyone's done this for an abandoned railway line, or if this is even the
> > right thing to do. My plan was to create a new relation like so:
> >
> > type = route
> > route = train
> > operator = Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co.
> > abandoned = yes
> >
> > It's that last tag I'm unsure of. Is abandoned = yes allowed/understood in
> > relations?
> 
> Dear Kristian,
> 
> It is most likely that no relation is required to group them together.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories

I've thought about this some more today, and I think this specific case 
does qualify as a relation. I'm not trying to group multiple, disparate 
lines operated by a railraod into a collection; there's just a single line, 
but due to adaptive reuse of the Right of Way, I've been forced to break it 
into multiple ways. I don't see this as much different from a state highway 
that travels on multiple streets, or even a road that's broken into multiple 
ways so one segment can be tagged as a bridge or tunnel. It's a singular, 
logical relation, from end-to-end. Now, if the E&BE had ever run multiple 
lines, then I can see the objection to putting them into a relation. That's 
not the case, however. 

I do see the need for care here. We don't want someone tagging every line 
operated by Union Pacific as being part of one huge relation, for example. 
However, tt would be perfectly acceptable (to me, anyway), to tag an 
individual named railroad subdivision with a relation, though, assuming it 
had to be broken into segments for things like bridges/tunnels. It's a fine 
line to walk, that's for sure. 

Oh, and I now see that I don't need to tag the relation as abandoned, as all 
the ways have this tag (except for the portion tagged as "preserved" at the 
Illinois Railway Museum).

Anyway, there's still time to change my mind, as I have other things I want 
to clean up before I add this relation. Man, do I have a love/hate 
relationship with TIGER right now.

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[Talk-us] text/plain; charset=us-ascii

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:24:27AM -0500, Richard Weait wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Kristian M Zoerhoff
>  wrote:
> > Hi, all.
> >
> > I've been working on adding some abandoned railway lines in my area, and
> > I've been wondering how to group them together. The line I'm working on
> > right now (the former Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co. line) has been re-used
> > in some areas as public streets, bike paths, service roads, and even a
> > railway museum, so I've had to break the line into quite a few ways. I'd
> > like to group them back together with a relation, but I'm not sure if
> > anyone's done this for an abandoned railway line, or if this is even the
> > right thing to do. My plan was to create a new relation like so:
> >
> > type = route
> > route = train
> > operator = Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co.
> > abandoned = yes
> >
> > It's that last tag I'm unsure of. Is abandoned = yes allowed/understood in
> > relations?
> 
> Dear Kristian,
> 
> It is most likely that no relation is required to group them together.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories

I've seen that, but I guess I don't understand the implication here. I'm 
trying to group ways that I split, so that I can show them together on a 
single map link. 
 
> Regarding "abandoned" see,
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Railway#Explanation_of_railway.3Dabandoned

I've seen and used that for the actual ways, but I wasn't sure if I would 
also need it on a relation or not.

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Re: [Talk-us] Creating relations for abandoned railway lines

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:23:12AM -0500, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Kristian M Zoerhoff
>  wrote:
> > Hi, all.
> >
> > I've been working on adding some abandoned railway lines in my area, and
> > I've been wondering how to group them together. The line I'm working on
> > right now (the former Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co. line) has been re-used
> > in some areas as public streets, bike paths, service roads, and even a
> > railway museum, so I've had to break the line into quite a few ways. I'd
> > like to group them back together with a relation, but I'm not sure if
> > anyone's done this for an abandoned railway line, or if this is even the
> > right thing to do. My plan was to create a new relation like so:
> >
> > type = route
> > route = train
> > operator = Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co.
> This should be unabbreviated: Elgin and Belvidere Electric Company.

Good catch.
 
> > abandoned = yes
> >
> > It's that last tag I'm unsure of. Is abandoned = yes allowed/understood in
> > relations?
> 
> I think what you want to use is route=railway, not route=train. The
> latter would include trackage (if any) owned by other companies that
> the E&BE used to reach downtown terminals, while the former would be
> the single line owned and operated by the E&BE.

Good point. EB&E used long-abandoned and paved over streetcar trackage at 
either end, which it did not own. I have no intention of tagging that 
trackage right now, though I may get to that at some point.

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[Talk-us] Creating relations for abandoned railway lines

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

Hi, all.

I've been working on adding some abandoned railway lines in my area, and 
I've been wondering how to group them together. The line I'm working on 
right now (the former Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co. line) has been re-used 
in some areas as public streets, bike paths, service roads, and even a 
railway museum, so I've had to break the line into quite a few ways. I'd 
like to group them back together with a relation, but I'm not sure if 
anyone's done this for an abandoned railway line, or if this is even the 
right thing to do. My plan was to create a new relation like so:

type = route
route = train
operator = Elgin & Belvidere Electric Co.
abandoned = yes

It's that last tag I'm unsure of. Is abandoned = yes allowed/understood in 
relations?

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