Re[2]: Issue with mailbox
Wednesday, August 29, 2007, 7:51:05 PM, you wrote: > Hi Goncalo, >> Did you figure out the steps to reproduce that? It seems to be >> affecting you more than anybody else - personally, I never had that >> problem. >I have seen this... at least once... but no more than twice in 8 >years... and I haven't seen it in this Beta cycle and I have over a >thousand folders... > Best Regards, > Jim I've received three suggestion emails thus far indicating that I'm not alone in this problem. The fact that there _is_ an undocumented command to 'fix' this if it happens, is suspect enough for me to be worried about the integrity and security of my data. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Issue with mailbox
Wednesday, August 29, 2007, 12:25:43 PM, you wrote: *snip* > When (not that often) I have disappearing folders, I have to add a > "new" folder, use the exact name of the disappeared folder. TB! then says it > already exists and asks if I want to use the initial folder and the problem > is solved. Well, thats how I discovered this problem of disappearing folders! At first I thought that I had simply forgotten to export (from Thunderbird) those folders. So, I manually created one of them so that I could use the tools import. Thats why I got the error that the folder already existed - though I couldn't see it. I didn't get _any_ option to use the initial folder though. > So, taking the above into account, you should be glad the trick works in your > case! :-) I guess. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Issue with mailbox
Tuesday, August 28, 2007, 12:01:37 PM, you wrote: > Hello Feli, > Sunday, August 26, 2007, 8:51:56 PM, you wrote: FW>> it lets reappear "lost" folders > But it doesn't work in all setups... This issue is beginning to cause me grave concern. I noticed today that I was missing some folders. So I did the ctrl+alt+shift+L trick and it found them. Less than an hour later, I noticed once again, that I still missing folders. Did it again, and they came back. So, at which point do I actually start losing emails? And why is this happening?!?! -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.23.3 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Issue with mailbox
Sunday, August 26, 2007, 12:38:08 PM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, >> In order to bring it back, I had to close TB!, rename the original >> folder, create one of the same name, moved those two files from the >> backup folder to the new folder and restarted TB!. The mailbox folder >> then showed up. > Taking aside the reason why this happens, in the future it will be > faster for you to use undocumented Ctrl-Shift-Alt-L combination. Undocumented? So, uhm, what does it do exactly? -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: Issues with threaded view
Sunday, August 26, 2007, 10:48:34 AM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, > A reminder of what Indie_Dev typed on: > Sunday, August 26, 2007 at 09:49:44 GMT -0400 >>> So, I did just that. When I restarted TB!, my views dialog had huge >>> gaps in it. The pic is too large for this post, so I'll do a follow-up >>> next. I>> Attached is what my views dialog looks like. Notice the gaps? Is that I>> normal? > No gaps in my display. Yes, I thought so. I just need to figure out how to reset it to the defaults. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Issues with threaded view
Sunday, August 26, 2007, 10:46:52 AM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, > A reminder of what Indie_Dev typed on: > Sunday, August 26, 2007 at 09:39:43 GMT -0400 I>> 1. I discovered that in threaded view mode, if you select the folder I>> (left pane), then set it to "No View Mode", the screen is the I>> refreshed unless you first select another view tab (e.g. "Unread") and I>> then back to the previous (e.g. "All"). In fact, I have observed that I>> sometimes, changing from threaded view mode does not work on a per I>> folder basis. Just now it happened to me and I have to do it from the I>> "View/Global View Mode" option. I>> However, going from any view (e.g. "No View Mode") to threaded view I>> updates the screen immediately. > My view modes seem to refresh with every change. The one thing I have > found with View Modes in TB! is to set View/Global View Mode to "No > View Mode" and leave it there. It overrides all other view modes and > causes confusion. That might be the problem. I just noticed that having the View/Global View Mode set to "threaded", causes confusion and acts like a toggle. e.g. if you have View/Global View Mode set, when switching to other views and return to the "All" filter, the messages are not threaded. Now if you check the view settings for that folder, its set to "threaded' but the messages are no longer threaded. You have to set it to "No View Mode" and _then_ it goes back to being threaded (which I assume its getting from the Global View Mode setting. Yes, its inconsistent and confusing; but don't say it out loud though. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Issue with mailbox
While I was searching for a message, I noticed that one of my mailboxes was missing. So I tried re-create it so that I could re-export the original folder from TB. Thats when TB! informed me that a folder of the same name existed. I looked through my entire folder tree for the a/c and didn't see it. So I went to Explorer, looked in the account folder tree and saw that it was there and contained two files: MESSAGES.TBB MESSAGES.TBI In order to bring it back, I had to close TB!, rename the original folder, create one of the same name, moved those two files from the backup folder to the new folder and restarted TB!. The mailbox folder then showed up. -- Best regards, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Issues with threaded view
Sunday, August 26, 2007, 9:49:44 AM, you wrote: I also un-installed TB!, cleaned out the registry* and re-installed but the views dialog remains the same. I'm quite certain thats not what the default installation looks like. Where are these settings stored. They're obviously not in the registry and I couldn't find the file (in the mailbox folder) that would handle it. I'd like to reset it to the defaults. * Why does the un-installer not remove the HKCU\Software\RIT entries during an un-install? -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Issues with threaded view
Sunday, August 26, 2007, 9:39:43 AM, you wrote: *snip* > So, I did just that. When I restarted TB!, my views dialog had huge > gaps in it. The pic is too large for this post, so I'll do a follow-up > next. Attached is what my views dialog looks like. Notice the gaps? Is that normal? -- cheers, Indie_Dev<> Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Issues with threaded view
Sunday, August 26, 2007, 9:39:43 AM, you wrote: *snip* > While in the dialog, I got a recursive crash. For the laymen in the > list, it means a crash you can't get out of without using something > like Process Monitor to terminate the program. > So, I did just that. When I restarted TB!, my views dialog had huge > gaps in it. The pic is too large for this post, so I'll do a follow-up > next. Attached is what my views dialog looks like. Notice the gaps? Is that normal? I also un-installed TB!, cleaned out the registry* and re-installed but the views dialog remains the same. I'm quite certain thats not what the default installation looks like. Where are these settings stored. They're obviously not in the registry and I couldn't find the file (in the mailbox folder) that would handle it. I'd like to reset it to the defaults. * Why does the un-installer not remove the HKCU\Software\RIT entries during an un-install? -- cheers, Indie_Dev<> Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Issues with threaded view
1. I discovered that in threaded view mode, if you select the folder (left pane), then set it to "No View Mode", the screen is the refreshed unless you first select another view tab (e.g. "Unread") and then back to the previous (e.g. "All"). In fact, I have observed that sometimes, changing from threaded view mode does not work on a per folder basis. Just now it happened to me and I have to do it from the "View/Global View Mode" option. However, going from any view (e.g. "No View Mode") to threaded view updates the screen immediately. Anyone else getting this? 2. I also just had a crash in views. I was trying to get the 'created' and 'date created' views to work right. I kept getting my messages from 2001, threaded in a "Last Year" thread so I figured I'd set those modes to "No View Mode" While in the dialog, I got a recursive crash. For the laymen in the list, it means a crash you can't get out of without using something like Process Monitor to terminate the program. So, I did just that. When I restarted TB!, my views dialog had huge gaps in it. The pic is too large for this post, so I'll do a follow-up next. -- Best regards, Indie_Dev<><> Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Mod: DEAD HORSE (was: Mod: Personal Attack (was: Mailing List Abuse))
Saturday, August 25, 2007, 8:02:25 PM, you wrote: > Hallo Indie_Dev, > On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 19:47:43 -0400GMT (26-8-2007, 1:47, where I live), > you wrote: ID>> I used the word 'abuse' because the person abused the purposes of the > When a thread gets dead horsed, it's closed for everybody. Sorry, I was just catching up on posts and replied to that one before I saw the dead horsed post. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[5]: Mod: Personal Attack (was: Mailing List Abuse)
Saturday, August 25, 2007, 6:51:13 PM, you wrote: > In reply to : GP>> The point being that Rit can take full advantage of whatever GP>> useful suggestions that might be made without anybody responding GP>> to what might feel like provocative remarks. Such responses are GP>> unnecessary, and counterproductive to what we are trying to GP>> accomplish here. IMO. GP>> If it might be true that private information has been compromised, GP>> our strong and fair moderator will deal with the situation GP>> appropriately, I'm sure. We also don't need to discuss the alleged GP>> compromising here. > Come on! The title itself is meant to be provocative! > "Mailing List Abuse" - where is the so called abuse? It was a PRIVATE > EMAIL and nothing to do with the list. I used the word 'abuse' because the person abused the purposes of the list by (1) not posting to the list, which is fine of course (2) used the list to obtain my email address, thereby sending me an email which had nothing to do with _the_list_ but instead served to put me "on guard" as if to say "...I know who you are" etc. If he didn't have access to the list, he won't have had access to my email address and thus would not have sent me such an email. He _knew_ that his actions were suspect and reprehensible thats why, like a cowardly rat hiding under a rock, he tried to cover his tracks. Thats the difference between men and boys. THAT, is abuse. He abused the _nature_ of the list, in much the same way those who troll, don't abide by the list, use the list as their personal raging, ranting and venting outlet, _abuse_ it. Here, let me help you a bit... http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=abuse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse I'm not sure if English is your sixth language or not, but its clear to me from your posts that its either (a) not your first language (b) you're just being argumentative, disruptive and blatantly foolish. Judging from the posts this thread has received - none of which I've responded to - since I'm in 'observer' mode until we figure out who it was on the list. > Unlike many others, he disguise himself behind an alias Oh, being anon is a crime now? > and disrupts the purpose of the list. I don't even know how to respond to that. So, I'll just leave it alone and leave you to your unfounded and baseless accusations - all of which are without merit. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Mailing List Abuse
Friday, August 24, 2007, 5:41:08 PM, you wrote: > You missed my point. You *SHOULD* through your weight in cases that expertise > is required. An opinion from a knowledgeable and experienced persons *DOES* > matter. Ah yes, I do see your point, but again, I'd rather just be that unknown entity than some celebrity (which I most certainly am) who some idiots get to take potshots at in a list because thats the _only_ they'd _ever_ get near someone like me in any way, shape or form. You know, a lot of people one wouldn't otherwise ack in public, somehow tend to vent their jealousy, hated, anti-social behavior etc on the Internet. I've been there more times than one; and the only lesson I learned is that you can't beat them and you sure as heck don't want to join them. I'm a lot older and more wiser now, so all this stuff just doesn't get to me. My only concern over the email I received today is because I felt that my personal data (given to Ritlabs and CIFnet) had been breached, since thats the only way anyone would know who I was. In this day and age of rampant data theft, you just can't be too careful. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Mailing List Abuse
Friday, August 24, 2007, 3:37:20 PM, you wrote: >> 1. By making a reference to Atlanta, quite possibly knows who I am. > Check this page: > http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-728392-p-9.html > It seems, you said it yourself? Yes, thats me This is me... http://myworld.ebay.com/indie_dev http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=856929 http://www.maxoutput.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3245 http://help.lockergnome.com/vista/Duplex-ing-bug-head-toe-HP-erftopic-31726-days0-orderasc-20.html etc Though I found one or two that weren't me. Looks like I'm not the only one using that handle, though I'm not surprised since there are lots of duplicate handles online. As you can see, I _live_ in Florida, not Atlanta. And the connection to Atlanta is what sparked my original thread because that person would only know of any such connection unless they _knew_ who I was. > Or he was just smarter than you and know something that we dont know > :))) Or at least smarter than me. No, he's not that smart. He's a sniveling coward. If he _was_ smart, he wouldn't have sent me the email in the first place. If he wasn't a coward, he would have just - been a man - and just posted that via the list so that I can stick him in my kill filter. But he went through the trouble of trying to hide his tracks. You don't go to those lengths just reply to someone on a list that is largely already made up of anon people anyway. No, he's an idiot. Idiots, by their very nature, aren't smart. Though they like to think so. > (It was not me, I could not even read the beta nowadays, I am just > tracking spammers sometimes for the inet police in Hungary. Dumb ones, > who leaves their IP behind them while harvesting money from innocent > people :( I typed in your nickname into Google, there was some match.) > Vili > Hungarian dealer of The Bat! Well, I'm not making any accusations. But thanks for letting us know that Hungarians (I once had a Hungarian girlfriend actually, name was Timea. Nice, very smart people) aren't idiots. :) -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Mailing List Abuse
Friday, August 24, 2007, 1:21:10 PM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, > Friday, August 24, 2007, 7:55:47 PM, you wrote: >> 1. By making a reference to Atlanta, quite possibly knows who I am. >> 2. And they could only have obtained that information from the credit card >>information I used to purchase The Bat! as my IP address does not resolve >> to >>Atlanta. > Hello Indie, > Your accusation is *very* serious and by all means *do* investigate. However > someone (maybe a reader of your blog) may identified you. You wrote that you > are quite known, developed or took part in the development of several well > known products and maintain a well known blog. 1+1 = 2 for someone who may > already know you from other places. I'm not _that_ famous that putting 1+1 together would reveal my identity. Even if you put in "indie_dev" on search engines, you'd be hard pressed to figure out who I am, unless I _told_ you who I was. Heck, I even have an eBay page; so its not like I'm hiding in plain site. > I have just one question. Why do you need anonymity? Posting your thoughts > -even when some people disagree- could carry the weight of your name. Simple. I use this gmail address for mailing lists, posting on tech forums, sites I purchase stuff from etc. That way, since I don't stick around, I don't get spam and stuff like that lingering long after I'm gone and they don't have my work or personal email. Its a "throwaway" address. > It's quite logical. If you are a well known software designer your experience > *matters*. For example I'm a mathematician. I never had any to do with > software design. While I could have some ideas that in theory should work, > these ideas haven't been necessary tested in real situations. Feedback > *especially* from knowledgeable and experienced people carry more weight than > others, at least at specific fields. Sure, try sharing _those_ thoughts on a mailing list which has a few, shall we say, "undesirables" and see how far _that_ gets you. The point is, I don't flaunt who I am because it is irrelevant. I don't go throwing my weight around or anything like that. Its not who I am that matters, but what I contribute. I only joined this mailing list because (1) I wanted to see if I should stick with The Bat! or not by tracking its dev progress (2) I'm on vacation and have far too much time on my hands. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Mailing List Abuse
Friday, August 24, 2007, 3:41:36 PM, you wrote: >> 1. By making a reference to Atlanta, quite possibly knows who I am. > I was wrong. That page says South Florida and Atlanta is Georgia. My > mistake. I dont know where he got that info then. Certainly not from > RITLABS or CIFNet. > Vili I'm not making _any_ accusations, which is why I carefully worded my original post. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Mailing List Abuse
Friday, August 24, 2007, 1:18:08 PM, you wrote: > Hello, Indie_Dev! > On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, at 12:55:47 [GMT -0400] (which was 19:55 where I > live) you wrote: I>> Received: from SERVER1 ( [68.153.194.5]) I>> by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id I>> i13sm4609270wxd.2007.08.24.09.56.14 I>> (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:56:14 -0700 (PDT) > http://whois.domaintools.com/68.153.194.5 > Bye! > VB Not sure what that means VB. Sure this person could just be being facetious with his comments and the fact that the IP resolves out of Atlanta, but then why would he not have posted via the list that being the case? That email address is not on the mailing list AFAIK. The fact that they went out of their way to use an anon (and being _stupid_ enough to think that there is such as thing as anon when it comes to being online) to send that to me directly means that (apart from being cowardly bastards) they have an idea of who I am, quite apart from my Atlanta IP (which is meaningless). Jake will be able to trace the IP right to the _desktop_ the email came from. Its what he does for a living. He's very - very - good at it. I love a good witch hunt. At least it will spur some more excitement on the list. Right up to their eventual ban (I hope). - JD -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Mailing List Abuse
Friday, August 24, 2007, 1:16:12 PM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev > On Friday, August 24, 2007 you wrote: >> 3. Is somehow associated with RitLabs or CIFNet as >> that is the only way to >>obtain my PRIVATE and PERSONAL information from >> my purchasing info. >> Once I figure this all out, I will determine what >> course of action to >> take. In the interim, I'm going to contact both >> RITlabs and CIFNet. > 1)The IP is out of the Netherlands > 2) Denit Internet services > It shouldn't be too hard to get there internet service provider > involved. Get them banned from Google while you're at it. Actually we're on it. I exported all the mailing list emails (since I don't delete them) and passed them along to a friend of mine who is an expert at this stuff. We'll hopefully know shortly who (in the mailing list) the person who sent me this email is and how they got access to my information. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Mailing List Abuse
I hope a moderator can look into this, but my guess is, probably not. It looks like having put three people in my kill filter, I'm now getting derogatory emails sent directly to my email, thereby bypassing the list. So obviously whoever this person is 1. By making a reference to Atlanta, quite possibly knows who I am. 2. And they could only have obtained that information from the credit card information I used to purchase The Bat! as my IP address does not resolve to Atlanta. 3. Is somehow associated with RitLabs or CIFNet as that is the only way to obtain my PRIVATE and PERSONAL information from my purchasing info. Once I figure this all out, I will determine what course of action to take. In the interim, I'm going to contact both RITlabs and CIFNet. Below is the email I just received, complete with headers = Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: by 10.140.226.8 with SMTP id y8cs80830rvg; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.51.17 with SMTP id y17mr4175184agy.118796788; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from nl2.trancecrypt.com ([62.148.169.47]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id i7si558285nfh.2007.08.24.07.44.24; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 62.148.169.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of [EMAIL PROTECTED]) client-ip=62.148.169.47; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 62.148.169.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of [EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 10:43:59 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Excellent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: No malware detected. >Look, I know that some of you are classic cases of anti-social >misfits, degenerative school yard bullies and thrive on harassing >people on-line, taking things personal for _no_ reason whatsoever >and putting people down so you can feel good about yourselves. Thank you for the excellent description of yourself. I feel sad for you and pity for Atlanta. = -- Best regards, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[4]: "received by server" timestamp
Friday, August 24, 2007, 9:33:01 AM, you wrote: > 8/24/2007 9:31 AM > Hi Indie_Dev, > On 8/24/2007 Indie_Dev wrote: I>> Look, I know that some of you are classic cases of anti-social I>> misfits, degenerative school yard bullies and thrive on harassing I>> people on-line, taking things personal for _no_ reason whatsoever I>> and putting people down so you can feel good about yourselves. I>> So please, carry on. I>> In the meantime, say hello to my kill filter. You're just not worthy of my time or angst. I>> Have a lovely day and have fun living in obscurity. > The accuser is always the perpetrator. The master of personal attack > can't take it but sure can dish it. Some things never change. I didn't know that I was a "master of personal attack". Thats a new one; especially when you consider that I have made _no_ such personal attacks on anyone here. Say hello to my kill filter. Have fun with your friends already in there. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: "received by server" timestamp
Friday, August 24, 2007, 9:31:13 AM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev > On Friday, August 24, 2007 you wrote: >> Look, I know that some of you are classic cases of anti-social >> misfits, degenerative school yard bullies and thrive on harassing >> people on-line, taking things personal for _no_ reason whatsoever >> and putting people down so you can feel good about yourselves. > There are a couple. Indeed. And they are in a special filter for that reason. Its just ridiculous having to wade through this crap. > However this is really a great group of people. Of that I have _no_ doubt. So, my apologies if I came off as lumping everyone in that category. Though I did say "some of you" -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: "received by server" timestamp
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 11:08:13 PM, you wrote: > *snip* > Well, I was _right_ all along. The handling of the imported email is due > to an internal functionality of the TB! and nothing to do with > compliance. The format of the index file is what necessitates setting > the 'received' date to the date of the import because thats how the > index file perceives it. > Great. Case closed. We can move along now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) Will it apply? Look, I know that some of you are classic cases of anti-social misfits, degenerative school yard bullies and thrive on harassing people on-line, taking things personal for _no_ reason whatsoever and putting people down so you can feel good about yourselves. So please, carry on. In the meantime, say hello to my kill filter. You're just not worthy of my time or angst. Have a lovely day and have fun living in obscurity. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: MAPI error 2
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 3:49:15 PM, you wrote: >>> I can no longer send files from these programs >>> directly to the bat. >>> This is a change in behavior and something that >>> broke during the past couple of Betas > --- > Windows Internet Explorer > --- > Could not perform this operation because the default mail client is not > properly installed > This after reassociating the default MAPI client via THE BAT. I even > tried letting outlook express be the default then changing it back > Outlook Express is now the unchangeable default. Something is broke! :'( I can confirm this. I too use SnagIt and am having the problem with .21 build. Also, I'm still getting those warnings from the GMail server, even though the messages are going through. Looks like that issue with code 221 now being ack'ed. !8/23/2007, 17:27:00: SEND - TLS protocol error: Unexpected message SessionUnknownContentType ct (50). 8/23/2007, 17:27:00: SEND - connection finished - 1 messages sent -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Suppressing the message.html file
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 2:56:22 PM, you wrote: > Hello vitalie > On Thursday, August 23, 2007 you wrote: >> Rick Grunwald wrote: >>> If you still disagree reformat your drive and >>> install OS/2. After all >>> Bill Gates himself said it was the best >>> operating system. >>> >> "...the message we have here is the strong belief >> that OS/2 is the >> platform for the 90s". > I think he said that in the late 80s and was absolutely correct. Then > IBM got their hands on it and like Lotus 123 slipped into the mists, a > victim of ineptitude > If you need a "BM" make it an IBM I was part of the OS/2 contract dev team. PLEASE don't get me started. I still have about three or four Blue/White boxes of OS/2 Warp sitting here on my shelves. I sh*t you not. IBM has been going downhill in the consumer market for decades. Letting OS/2 slip and give way to Windows, was the final nail in the coffin. ...then they sold the hardware units. then the HDD units. then the laptop...then the.let me stop here. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Suppressing the message.html file
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 11:37:48 AM, you wrote: >> >> > Instruct your colleagues NOT to send HTML email. >> >> >> >> THAT is NOT a solution >> >> > Why? >> >> Because HTML email is what is happening on the Internet these days and >> for the past few years. Take a look at the number of customers THE BAT >> has lost because it cannot deal effectively with HTML email, eithe >> viewing or composing > SPAM is happening on the Internet these days too. Should we not fight it? How does SPAM - a GLOBALLY UNWANTED ENTITY - compare to HTML an ACCEPTABLE communications formatting standard? Are you _serious_? -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: Suppressing the message.html file
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 11:43:28 AM, you wrote: > 8/23/2007 11:39 AM > Hi Rick, > On 8/23/2007 Rick Grunwald wrote: RG>> ... is Not helpful nor realistic. That is what I was addressing > Can we agree that your dissertation on the merits of HTML did not > address the question? That is what I was addressing. I offered a > different point of view. Whats there to address? Your respond was unwarranted and without merit. In other words, you were just being a smart a$$ because quite seriously you _don't_ really believe that we're going to tell our friends, family, colleagues, team mates etc to stop using HTML. Gimme a break. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Suppressing the message.html file
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 11:36:14 AM, you wrote: >> So again, offering >> > Instruct your colleagues NOT to send HTML email. >> >> ... is Not helpful nor realistic. That is what I was addressing > It is realistic. Most email for every business user comes from the > people they are working with. I personally configured ALL Outlook/OE > clients in my organization to send only plain text messages and here > I have: 80% less of HTML email. This is the RIGHT way to fight the > problem, not the other way around! ...and why is HTML use a problem? Just because it is a problem for some _stupid_ people who, despite warnings, still open files coming from people they don't know. And so, we should pay the price for otherwise stupid and/or ignorant people? I think not. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: Suppressing the message.html file
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 11:09:58 AM, you wrote: > 8/23/2007 11:02 AM > Hi Rick, > On 8/23/2007 Rick Grunwald wrote: RG>> Because HTML email is what is happening on the Internet these days and RG>> for the past few years. Take a look at the number of customers THE BAT RG>> has lost because it cannot deal effectively with HTML email, eithe RG>> viewing or composing RG>> Your suggestion is about as helpful as "I DO have a telephone but you RG>> must always send handwritten letters" RG>> Wake up. HTML is here and in wide use > Your response does not address the question of removing message.html > files. They are an implementation by TB! that I appreciate. They can > be removed from view but don't go away until deleted. Actually, thats not true. I just updated my report because mine are not getting deleted even when I manually delete delete and answer the prompt. Yes, I am using .21 Build (is .22 out yet btw?) > I appreciate seeing the bloat caused by HTML content (typically 5 to 20 times > the > size of plain text). > HTML may be a big part of your world. Mine is just the opposite and > most of the received HTML messages are SPAM. One of the reasons I have > stayed with TB! for 10 years is because of the way it deals with HTML > _and_ protects my customers from the bad things that often appear in > HTML. This is not about you and your preferences. HTML email is here and some people use it, some don't. That preference has _nothing_ to do with functionality. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: "received by server" timestamp
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 10:50:16 AM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_dev, > Thursday, August 23, 2007, 17:42:41, you wrote: >>>Thats good to know. But my question is, whats so hard about just >>>leaving the emails alone and importing them as-is? This is not about >>>sorting per se. >>>During import, if for some reason TB! needs to know when an email was >>>imported, please, for the love of God, just use an X-header setting. > Could you please clarify what do you mean exactly? Well, since we now know that you use the index file for this, I suppose you could just use a header field if you need this information and just not modify the "received" or "created" fields in the GUI. In fact, if you just ignore it, "received" == "created" which means they will be duplicated. Here is what a X header field looks like. Note that line four was inserted by "Eudora Rescue" when I used to transfer this mail from Eudora format to Thunderbird X-Mozilla-Status: 6001 X-Mozilla-Status2: X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Imported: from Eudora by Eudora Rescue 0.7 -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: Suppressing the message.html file
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 11:09:58 AM, you wrote: > 8/23/2007 11:02 AM > Hi Rick, > On 8/23/2007 Rick Grunwald wrote: RG>> Because HTML email is what is happening on the Internet these days and RG>> for the past few years. Take a look at the number of customers THE BAT RG>> has lost because it cannot deal effectively with HTML email, eithe RG>> viewing or composing RG>> Your suggestion is about as helpful as "I DO have a telephone but you RG>> must always send handwritten letters" RG>> Wake up. HTML is here and in wide use > Your response does not address the question of removing message.html > files. They are an implementation by TB! that I appreciate. They can > be removed from view but don't go away until deleted. I appreciate > seeing the bloat caused by HTML content (typically 5 to 20 times the > size of plain text). > HTML may be a big part of your world. Mine is just the opposite and > most of the received HTML messages are SPAM. One of the reasons I have > stayed with TB! for 10 years is because of the way it deals with HTML > _and_ protects my customers from the bad things that often appear in > HTML. OK, this should be interesting. But, I'm off to lunch first. That way, when I do post - on a full stomach - I'd have something to blame my responses on. :) -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: "received by server" timestamp
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 10:11:02 AM, you wrote: > Hello all, > Thursday, August 23, 2007, Maxim Masiutin wrote: >>>>In my previous mail I wrote that I found your points valid but there are >>>>also >>>>counter points that are also valid! From The Bat's! behalf, the mail is >>>>RECEIVED as long as it got into its database. Technically this is correct. >> I like the idea of sorting message by "received by server" more than >> "received into the database" or "sent by the >> correspondent". But the current implementation of The Bat! index file >> doesn't allow to keep "received by server" time. In >> the V4 we are changing the message index file format and it will allow >> to sort messages by "received by server". > Max, please, discuss with us Index File Format before You will implement > it, I will not alone, who wants to have user-defined columns in messages > list pane, Stef promised this, but AFAIK it required index file changes. > Thanks Well, I was _right_ all along. The handling of the imported email is due to an internal functionality of the TB! and nothing to do with compliance. The format of the index file is what necessitates setting the 'received' date to the date of the import because thats how the index file perceives it. Great. Case closed. We can move along now. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: "received by server" timestamp
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 10:08:05 AM, you wrote: > Hello George, > Thursday, August 23, 2007, 16:55:24, you wrote: >>>In my previous mail I wrote that I found your points valid but there are also >>>counter points that are also valid! From The Bat's! behalf, the mail is >>>RECEIVED as long as it got into its database. Technically this is correct. > I like the idea of sorting message by "received by server" more > than "received into the database" or "sent by the correspondent". But > the current implementation of The Bat! index file doesn't allow to > keep "received by server" time. In the V4 we are changing the message > index file format and it will allow to sort messages by "received by server". Thats good to know. But my question is, whats so hard about just leaving the emails alone and importing them as-is? This is not about sorting per se. During import, if for some reason TB! needs to know when an email was imported, please, for the love of God, just use an X-header setting. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 9:55:24 AM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, *snip* > Very well said. However with the following lines it seems that we are moving > to a dangerous ground: >> I'll mention it on my blog, it will get read - millions >> and millions of times. Then everyone even thinking of switching email >> programs will then get to decide (after reading my documentation of the >> anomaly) if they want an email program, in this case TB!, manggling their >> email and screwing up their otherwise perfectly normal views. My guess > Don't get me wrong but the above looks suspiciously like blackmail. And *this* > will certainly NOT help The Bat!. Of course it's your opinion and well in your > rights to publish however this is *YOUR* blog. Unless you allow RITLABS a > formal answer it seems more than revenge/blackmail because The Bat! doesn't > work the way that you want it and you are bashing it because of that. Yes, I see how that can be misconstrued, but blackmail (a rather strong term) it is not. The point is, if I don't like something or I have an issue with it, I have the right to say so. On my blog, I write about a range of issues, from Microsoft's borking of Vista and then trying to use the video gaming community to spearhead its adoption, hence making DX10 exclusive to it, to Google complying with communist China's demands about access to their search portal. Nobody accused me of blackmail!! In fact, there are hundreds of Internet wide post about email programs, including the Bat! Most of those posts, reviews etc are about shortcomings, failures, security holes etc in them. > In my previous mail I wrote that I found your points valid but there are also > counter points that are also valid! From The Bat's! behalf, the mail is > RECEIVED as long as it got into its database. Technically this is correct. Anything can be construed as being 'technically' correct. However, in this case, the TB! has _no_ business confusing and obfuscating the premise and function of the 'received' date as it pertains to emails. If they want to use a received date for when it enters their dB, they can, but it could in a X- header setting (like other email programs and exporters) or in a settings file. To take that information and make it part of the GUI, thus sparking this issue, is wrong. > Personally I'm with you on this one. No matter how you put it, Imported > e-mails *ARE NOT* received e-mails. I define "received" e-mails to be the > e-mails I downloaded from server and NOT the e-mails I import from another > storage. Obviously The Bat Devs have another definition. Exactly. > The real world analogue is very simple. Consider that I kept my mails (the > real mails) in a box. One day I bought another box, bigger and more shiny. So > I move the mails from the old box to the new box. But the mails are already > there, they are *NOT* received again! The postman didn't live them to my PO > Box! I merely changed the physical location where I put them! aha!! Thats even better than my analogy!! Good job!! Another way to put it is that if you already sorted your emails in the old box by ascending date, then you ask your brother to move them into the new box as-is. Then you go and look in the new box and see that he has put them in a descending order by date because to him, the new box means that you got them all 'today'. > But as I wrote to my previous e-mail, this is a matter of taste. ...or functionality -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Mod: Traffic claming
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 9:45:04 AM, you wrote: > Hello Marck, > Thursday, August 23, 2007, 2:56:19 PM, you wrote: MDP>> Indie_Dev is quite right in pointing out that (s)he is becoming the MDP>> focus of some personal attacks. > ,--/ based upon: \ > | Life's too short and I only have a pair of tits which refuse to grow any > | bigger than my wife's. > `-8<--- > I'd say "he", but referring to "my wife" is no longer a garantuee for such a > conclusion these days. ROTFLMAO!!! I'm a 'he' actually. But his composition is neutral and thats considered proper form when you don't know the gender of an anon person. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Suppressing the message.html file
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 9:39:08 AM, you wrote: > Hello, > Thursday, August 23, 2007, 3:12:32 PM, you wrote: I>> Anyone know how to suppress the creation of these message.html files? > Preferences - Viewer/Editor - View HTML Messages & View Messages with > alternative layout: choose "Plain Text Version Only" Thanks. Works like a charm. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Interface Inconsistencies
OK, I've files reports for every issue and quirk I've encountered and which need looking at if the devs choose to do so. 0006451...0006444 -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Suppressing the message.html file
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 9:14:56 AM, you wrote: >> Anyone know how to suppress the creation of these message.html files? >> They're just litter and will only serve to increase the size of the >> mailboxes over time. > Instruct your colleagues NOT to send HTML email. OK, I'm getting tired of your smart a$$ responds. If you can't be helpful please STFU. Thank you. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 8:55:21 AM, you wrote: *snip* >> Ritlabs is a small - very small - team of developers. Other email >> programs (apart from Pocomail) are written and supported by large >> corporations and/or groups. Eudora is probably one of the oldest >> ubiquitous email readers on the planet. It existed before RFC and over > and this should be a warranty of anything? Such big corporations manytimes > tries do their own standards and waits, if others will use it or not. The point I was making is that larger companies will tend to be more in compliance of standards (e.g. RFC) than indie developers. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Suppressing the message.html file
Anyone know how to suppress the creation of these message.html files? They're just litter and will only serve to increase the size of the mailboxes over time. -- Best regards, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 8:27:05 AM, you wrote: > Reply to message sent 08/22/2007, @ 17:06:17 (4:06 PM Locally) > ~~~ > Hello Indie_Dev, >> And if I breached anonymity and told the list who I was, you'd know >> that apart from being a highly trained and well respected developer, >> that I'm probably the _last_ person you'd want to be messing with at >> the personal [attack] level. > Steve? Steve Lamb? Have you returned? LOL!!! I'm afraid to ask who Steve Lamb is. :) -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 4:09:06 AM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, > Thursday, August 23, 2007, 12:06:17 AM, you wrote: >> And if I breached anonymity and told the list who I was, you'd know >> that apart from being a highly trained and well respected developer, >> that I'm probably the _last_ person you'd want to be messing with >> at the personal [attack] level. So please, just don't do that. It is >> uncalled for and there is no reason for it. > By all means, please do. Personally I don't care who you are and what are you > doing. I think -though I could be wrong- the same stands for the other members > of the list. Indeed > You've made some points. Personally I think that all are valid, though I don't > especially care about "Received" date since there is "Created" that can do the > job. You wrote -and I believe you- that no other program works this way. Well, > The Bat is working this way and you should deal with it. Absolutely. If I chose not to deal with it, I wouldn't be using TB! So of course I can deal with it. As I mentioned before, my pointing out what I personally perceive to be inconsistencies perhaps will reach the devs and cause them to look at it from a different perspective. Which is what a Beta program is for. Some people on this list don't seem to think so. > But let's talk about the "Received" date. You made a point -and it's valid- > that the mail is received once so The Bat! shouldn't mess around with it. > Maybe there should be an "X-Imported Date" or some other X-header. Well, I > agree with you. No matter how many times I've posted that, some folks here (who have this feeling that this list is their personal battleground, rather than a forum for the sharing of ideas) just want to discount my opinions and findings, while resorting to personal attacks. > However there is another view point. The imported mail is Received in the The > Bat's internal mail database and I think that's what on developers mind. I > disagree with this but this doesn't invalidate this view. It's a matter of > taste. I conceive it as little harmless quirk and I dealt with it since a) > there is a work around (the creation date) and b) it's a minor nuisance > considering all the powerful functionality of The Bat! I agree with you. Again - and I've said this before - my opinion has nothing to do with telling the devs how they should develop their program. If they choose to do something one way and I can't deal with it, well, thats what competition is about. I'll switch again. If I find a showstopper that causes me to quit using it, the end result is what always happen. I'll mention it on my blog, it will get read - millions and millions of times. Then everyone even thinking of switching email programs will then get to decide (after reading my documentation of the anomaly) if they want an email program, in this case TB!, manggling their email and screwing up their otherwise perfectly normal views. My guess is that the widespread common sense of those who value their email, will overshadow the close minded thinking of a few people on this list (and the devs) who think that its OK to do it that way. In fact, I'm going to write about it in my next blog article and see how that goes. That way, the gist of it goes out into the wild and everyone will get to read the consensus via the respondents. > However since you do care about that you should post it on bugtrack and if > people agree with you they should vote to fix it. I would vote! I thought it was already there! > Your other point, about the Delete All is also valid. You need to create a > bugtrack entry. OK > The purpose of this list is mainly the discussion of betas. While the > discussion of RFCs fall rather to the General List, the people who actually > *care* are here so in this spirit TBBETA *IS* the place to discuss this. > However, no matter how many megabytes of e-mail is exchanged RFCs are NOT > going to be implemented unless there is a bugtrack entry. So, since you are a > developer I presume you appreciate the importance of tools like bugtrack, > please make an entry and let the people vote. Absolutely. Congrats on a well written post btw -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[8]: Interface Inconsistencies
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 12:03:37 AM, you wrote: > In reply to : >>> To mimic the functionality of the attachment pane to the attachments >>> button it would have to be possible to choose any random set of files >>> for deletion because its one of the possible thing you can do with the >>> pane view. I>> Wrong. See my above explanation about 'functionality'. The > Don't say it wrong because it not! It seems that you didn't understand > what I meant. Hey, its wrong to _me_. So of course I can say its wrong. I>> functionality of the 'attachment display' has nothing to do with I>> 'randomnesss' since the population of that [attachments] list is not I>> random i.e. it displays attachments, not random bits of data objects I>> pulled from elsewhere (as in random). > What I meant was that, if you have files 1, 2, 3 and 4 you are able to > select 1 and 3, 2 and 4, 2 and 3, 1,2 and 4, etc and then delete those > files. > So, you can select a random SET of the AVAILABLE attachments for > deletion (and actually delete them) and that's not possible with the > "button" view. Now you're confusing the issue. There is no call of obfuscation. We're not talkin about randomness of attachments. We're tallking about two views, holding the same information, but one not allowing the flexibility as the other. To me, its like saying you can't delete a file in Explorer in details view, but you can in icons view. So, if you could only delete files in Explorer details view one by one but you could do CTRL+A in the icon view and delete all of them, that would be _wrong_. And that is what the problem is with this issue. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[4]: Interface Inconsistencies
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 12:21:11 AM, you wrote: > In reply to : I>> No, thats not what I'm implying. Lets try this again. Too bad we I>> don't have access to a chalk board and a box of crayons because I>> this is a classic classroom debate that can only be resolved by I>> some hardcore wielding of chalk. :) > You're here for a few days and already _teaching_ us all... wow! Pay attention. Standing in front of a chalkboard and wielding a chalk, does not imply that you're 'teaching' anything. You could be _illustrating_ something. And that was the gist of my post above. The same manner of emails have been to illustrate what I deem to be inconsistencies that I personally have issues with. I>> OK, here goes... I>> If I import my email that my previous email programs says I I>> received in 1996 and which doesn't show up on my 'today' filter, I>> when I export that email, I expect it to appear in the target email I>> program _exactly_ like that. No messing about. > TB has CREATE and RECEIVED. On my "receive" view mode I use CREATE. > Doesn't that solve your problem? Please explain what you mean by "on my "receive" view mode I use CREATE" I>> The fact that I have emails from 1996, showing up in the 'today' I>> (the day of the import) filter under the 'received' heading is 100% I>> wrong and inconsistent. Period. End of story. > If I sent you an email in 1996 and it stayed on your ISP mail server > until today how should it appear on email client? With today's date or > 1996? I was importing emails from my local drive that was _already_ downloaded. Its not on my ISP. I always download and delete my email from the server. I>> And in case you didn't know this already, _only_ the Bat! does this. I>> NO other email does this. None. > It's different, not necessarily wrong. Its wrong. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[4]: Interface Inconsistencies
Thursday, August 23, 2007, 12:40:11 AM, you wrote: > In reply to : *snip* > I'm going to cite Walter Bright regarding something everybody was > doing differently: > "As James Kanze explained on comp.lang.c++.moderated, DMC++ is correct > according to the Standard. However, nobody else does it that way, and > the Standard is going to be changed to make such code correct." LOL!! I remember that one. The standard was never changed. heh > Either TB is wrong or the standard must be changed. I really don't > care which... TB is wrong. There is absolutely _no_ question about it. None. You can't just have EVERY SINGLE email program EVER written, do it one way, then TB! does it another way and then say that TB! is doing it the correct way. Only a fool would look at emails from 1996, showing up in 2007 DEFAULT view filters with a 'RECEIVED' date of 2007 and say its correct. Thats just crazy. Ritlabs is a small - very small - team of developers. Other email programs (apart from Pocomail) are written and supported by large corporations and/or groups. Eudora is probably one of the oldest ubiquitous email readers on the planet. It existed before RFC and over the years has gone through many - many - revisions. It still does it right. RFC or not. I stopped using it because (1) they bloated it (2) they ended up periodically charging for major upgrades which ended up having bug fixes from previous versions. If you wanted a version just for the bug fixes in a prior version which you already _paid_ for, you had to to pay for the upgrade even if there is nothing in the upgrade that you actually wanted. Thats why its sales dropped to the point where they are practically given it away now with ad support. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 9:44:19 PM, you wrote: > Indie_Dev wrote: >> OK, lets try this again. >> > i knew you'll like it. >> Those _same_ emails imported into the following WORK JUST FINE and >> with NONE of this silliness that we're so hotly debating. >> >> Outlook >> Outlook Express >> Windows Mail >> Windows Live Mail >> Windows Live Mail Desktop >> Eudora >> EudoraPro >> Thunderbird >> PocoMail >> >> Heck, even Agent (the newsreader), read my pre-1996 emails just fine, >> since back then when I was on Netcom ISP, thats what I used for news >> and email since it was one of the very few programs that had an >> integrated news and email program. >> >> Your turn. >> > you just deaf or what? Here we go again with the personal attacks. You pack guys must really have fun in your group hug sessions. > make sure they're compliant, then fire up a bugreport with a couple of > samples attached. > end of story. That response tells me that you don't have _any_ logical defense nor explanation to what I've posted. This has _nothing_ absolutely _nothing_ to do with their COMPLIANCE (look up the word in a dictionary, ok?). TB! handles email imports INCORRECTLY. Period. End of story. And far as I'm concerned, there is already not only a report, but several posts about it. What more do you need? A map? -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 11:14:03 PM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 you wrote in > I>> I'm going to either end up with several virtual folders or several I>> different views with different sorting criteria. Seriously, whats I>> worth all this hassle? > Then maybe you should stop using TB!, go use one of the other oh so > perfect mail programmes that you use and stop winding so many people up. > It seems that you haven't started to even scratch the endless > possibilities of this programme to make it do what you want. You're either arrogantly ignorant or patently obtuse to not realize that what I've pointed out are _basic_ functionality. I should _not_ have to use a filter, virtual folders or voodoo to have the DEFAULT inbox view, behave like a DEFAULT inbox view which EVERY other email program on the planet, does. ...and into a filter you go. Have fun in solitude. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 11:14:00 PM, you wrote: > I find it amusing that a very self important person wants TB! You know what? I'm getting tired of the personal attacks. Usually when that happens, its from people who feel inferior in the face of adversity. So they compensate for their inferiority complex by lashing out. Its the whole school yard bully doctrine. If you can't match them with wits, bully them in any other way. I refuse to be bullied. If I started posting the way some of you do, with the personal attacks, I'll just end up at your level. Thats just not going to happen because, quite frankly, I'm way above that. So please carry on. Whats with the personal attacks around here? With all my banter, where have I made any such attacks on anyone? Some of you are the _prime_ example as to why its never a good idea to sink to the level of people you'd otherwise _never_ associate with in real life. But online, you get to do just that and then they end up having the false impression that you're all in the same league. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 8:17:53 PM, you wrote: > Indie_Dev wrote: >> To me, $35 is nothing. I can't even fill up my vehicle's gas tank on that. > $35 doesn't worth enough gasoline to fill up a tank, so you've decided > to fill your stomach instead? ROTFLMAO!!! Well actually, given the price of gas and given that I have several gas guzzlers here, it takes upwards of $75 to fill the gas tank of just one. So, if I don't drive to work for a week, I can make up for the loss of the $35 on the purchase of the Bat! :) -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 8:31:32 PM, you wrote: > Indie_Dev wrote: >> So, by your submission, because TV was invented way before I was born, >> I can't complain about not getting channel 2 on the UHF band as >> opposed to VHF? Right. >> > wrong. as opposed to UHF and VHF, back in 1996 there was no other > standard except RFC822 that would allow Date: be in a different format. > just make sure your mail of that time obeys RFC822. > if yes, and all the rest of your sayings still hold - fire up a > bugreport on the tracker. > i've had enough fun with you for today. thanks for mooding me up. OK, lets try this again. Those _same_ emails imported into the following WORK JUST FINE and with NONE of this silliness that we're so hotly debating. Outlook Outlook Express Windows Mail Windows Live Mail Windows Live Mail Desktop Eudora EudoraPro Thunderbird PocoMail Heck, even Agent (the newsreader), read my pre-1996 emails just fine, since back then when I was on Netcom ISP, thats what I used for news and email since it was one of the very few programs that had an integrated news and email program. Your turn. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 8:03:14 PM, you wrote: > Indie_Dev wrote: >> Every email program has the subject, sender, recipient, data, size and >> then you have additional stuff like attachments and whatnot. >> > datA? geez, man, your life is WAY too short! LOL. I know you know that I meant 'date' You know, that I know, that you know that I meant 'date' I'm quite certain that once you knew that I knew that you know full well that I meant 'date' that you became full in the knowledge that, well, you're being silly. :) -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 8:10:00 PM, you wrote: > Indie_Dev wrote: >>> the Date: field, as per the respective RFC, has a well-defined format. >>> >> ..and that is what I've been saying all along. If TB! stuck to the RFC >> standards - like _all_ other email programs, I won't have to be >> looking emails from 1996 in a default filter for yesterday. Its just >> ridiculous to me. >> >> We're not talking about a casual email user here. Those people won't >> care. But when you're talking about gigabytes of emails, going back >> that many years, its.just.wrong. >> > RFC822 was written BEFORE 1996. that mail of yours is.just.wrong™ all > the way since its very birth. OK, now you're just either being silly or yanking my chain. So, by your submission, because TV was invented way before I was born, I can't complain about not getting channel 2 on the UHF band as opposed to VHF? Right. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 7:51:50 PM, you wrote: > Indie_Dev wrote: >> Life's too short. >> > huh? too short to figure out that Date: has its STRICT formatting rules?! No. Too short that Date: has its STRICT formatting rules that TB! refuses to ack during a _simple_ import of Unix formatted email. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 7:30:15 PM, you wrote: > Hi Zygmunt, > On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, at 22:45:03 [GMT +0200] (which was 22:45 where I live) > you wrote about: 'Interface Inconsistencies' >>>> [...] The Bat! knows nothing about the the receiving in that program. >>>> The Bat! uses current date and set it as 'receive' date. >>>> When you retrieve (not import) messages from the archive, you retrieve all >>>> information, including receive date for each message. >>> That is not completely true. TB could extract the date from the >>> 'Received' headers in the email. For example your message has the >>> following Received headers in my message base: >> Of course, The Bat! could use last Received date form the message header, >> but as you know, this is the date when the message arrived to the server. >> When you connect to the server tomorrow, The Bat! will receive the message >> and >> write internally the tomorrow date as 'receiving' date. From this point of >> view >> all is logically correct. > After reading all the responses to this thread I think the only > sensible solution is for TB to have an option (during import) to set the > received date to the last Received date from the header or the current > date. No, I think the sensible solution is to _not_ mess with it _at_all_. Just import it as-is. Problem solved. No debate needed. So when you import your email, the received and created field will be identical since they decided that they'd go an complicate and confuse things by adding a header that is clearly _not_ required. Every email program has the subject, sender, recipient, data, size and then you have additional stuff like attachments and whatnot. So when my email from 1996 has a received 'date' of 1996 and then I expect it to TB! and it comes up under 'received' date of the day of the export and again under the 'created' date which is the actual and accurate data, its just wrong. And if you disable the 'received' field in TB!, then you lose that particular piece of information. As I write this email, I am staring at emails - all from today - with identical received and created dates. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 7:32:11 PM, you wrote: > Hendrik Oesterlin wrote: >> OK, I think I got your point of view >> > in fact, there are some other considerations, which none of you two > seems to figure out. > the Date: field, as per the respective RFC, has a well-defined format. ..and that is what I've been saying all along. If TB! stuck to the RFC standards - like _all_ other email programs, I won't have to be looking emails from 1996 in a default filter for yesterday. Its just ridiculous to me. We're not talking about a casual email user here. Those people won't care. But when you're talking about gigabytes of emails, going back that many years, its.just.wrong. - DS -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 7:20:30 PM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev > On Wednesday, August 22, 2007 you wrote: >>> and feed them a good LAXATIVE >> 'e started it!!! >> /me pointing > It's not going to get you away from being tied upside down! > ... THEN a time out in the corner! Darn. Man, you're tough :) Seriously though, I don't take _anything_ personally. Life's too short. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 6:52:47 PM, you wrote:
> "Indie_Dev" wrote on 23/08/2007 at 09:00:24 +1100
> subject "Interface Inconsistencies" :
>> The fact that I have emails from 1996, showing up in the 'today' (the
>> day of the import) filter under the 'received' heading is 100% wrong
>> and inconsistent. Period. End of story.
>> And in case you didn't know this already, _only_ the Bat! does this.
>> NO other email does this. None.
> OK, I think I got your point of view
> Note that TheBat does [almost] anything you want...
> Create an Virtual Folder and set an appropriate Filtering criteria
> ("Age", "Date of" or "Time interval") I think "Time interval"-"of
> create date is" will fit your needs, but just play around to find out
> which criteria fits best.
Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't yet looked into the virtual
folders filtering, but seriously, that means I have to keep - yet
another folder/view when all this needed to do was _not_ mess with the
original sorting of the received mail. PLUS, given that I manage
several very large projects, I'm going to either end up with several
virtual folders or several different views with different sorting
criteria. Seriously, whats worth all this hassle?
*sigh*
--
cheers,
Indie_Dev
Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 6:43:18 PM, you wrote: > Roelof Otten wrote: >> For me it's quite logical. When my aunt goes on holiday to Germany and >> sends me postcard (she did), I don't care when the card has been sent, >> because I haven't seen it. I don't care when it's been delivered into >> my mailbox, as I haven't seen it yet. I do care when I collect the >> card from my mailbox, because that's the moment I see it. >> Now I decide to archive my cards when they're seven days old, I don't >> start to count from the day they were sent, nor from the day it >> arrived in my mailbox, but I count from the day I've got it in my >> hands, that's logic. And that's the same logic TB uses. >> > following the same logic, there can't be anything older than you are. > even our planet is not any older than your date of birth, right? LMAO *splutter* *gag* *choke* *splutter* OK, I didn't see that coming. Thats the last time I read email on this list with liquid in my mouth. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 6:17:33 PM, you wrote: >> you wrote: ID>>> you wrote > I am going to have to paddle ALL your asses THEN stick you in the > corner! Either that or individually tie all the combatants upside down > and feed them a good LAXATIVE 'e started it!!! /me pointing -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 6:14:07 PM, you wrote: > Hallo Indie_Dev, > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:54:34 -0400GMT (22-8-2007, 23:54 +0200, where I > live), you wrote: ID>> Look, if I wrote an email in 1996 and its in my inbox. I don't want ID>> it showing up in my DEFAULT filter that CLEARLY says YESTERDAY when I ID>> know for a FACT that the email was written in 1996 and has _no_ ID>> business being in that filter. > What part of incompatibilities between your old and your new mail > system did you not understand? The part whereby my new email system is doing things incorrectly and in an unconventional and against acceptable standards. Yeah, that would be it. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 5:28:48 PM, you wrote: > "Indie_Dev" wrote on 23/08/2007 at 00:34:44 +1100 > subject "Interface Inconsistencies" : *snip* > Following your logic to the end, we need several "Received" columns as > there are often 4 or more "Received" lines in an eMail header. > [ironie]It could be interesting to sort messages by > first/second/third/fourth receiving entry...[/ironie] No, thats not what I'm implying. Lets try this again. Too bad we don't have access to a chalk board and a box of crayons because this is a classic classroom debate that can only be resolved by some hardcore wielding of chalk. :) OK, here goes... If I import my email that my previous email programs says I received in 1996 and which doesn't show up on my 'today' filter, when I export that email, I expect it to appear in the target email program _exactly_ like that. No messing about. The fact that I have emails from 1996, showing up in the 'today' (the day of the import) filter under the 'received' heading is 100% wrong and inconsistent. Period. End of story. And in case you didn't know this already, _only_ the Bat! does this. NO other email does this. None. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 5:29:52 PM, you wrote: > "Roelof Otten" wrote on 23/08/2007 at 04:52:56 +1100 > subject "Interface Inconsistencies" : >> Come on. Read what I write. Purging isn't based on header information, >> it's based on date of arrival. >> For me it's quite logical. When my aunt goes on holiday to Germany and >> sends me postcard (she did), I don't care when the card has been sent, >> because I haven't seen it. I don't care when it's been delivered into >> my mailbox, as I haven't seen it yet. I do care when I collect the >> card from my mailbox, because that's the moment I see it. >> Now I decide to archive my cards when they're seven days old, I don't >> start to count from the day they were sent, nor from the day it >> arrived in my mailbox, but I count from the day I've got it in my >> hands, that's logic. And that's the same logic TB uses. > OK, I'll bite. Here's my question What has that got to do with TB! messing about with the RECEIVED dates of emails when in fact we don't really care about it, since thats what the CREATED date is for? By your example - Your aunt sends you a postcard in 1996. You know this because you've already _seen_ this archaic artifact. - You move to a new house. - On that day, you once again get an email from your dear ol' aunt only to find that, even though it says (by the date) that she wrote it in 1996, the postal office, decides to send you another one. As if the original was lost. Only this time, you see the original 1996 stamp and near (or on top of) that, you see the postal service's stamp for the day you moved to your new house. The fact that we're even debating the merits of an email program importing emails incorrectly and creating not only unwanted Deja Vu but also sorting problems, is astonishing to me. Look, if I wrote an email in 1996 and its in my inbox. I don't want it showing up in my DEFAULT filter that CLEARLY says YESTERDAY when I know for a FACT that the email was written in 1996 and has _no_ business being in that filter. *sheesh* -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Beta Changelog
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 4:29:29 PM, you wrote: > Hello all, > Wednesday, August 22, 2007, Indie_Dev wrote: >> Anyone have any idea where I can find it? I'd like to track the >> progress from my current [release] version to the current Beta before >> I make the plunge. > all fixes reported in offcial Bugtraq are here: > https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/changelog_page.php > changelogs from developers are included in TBBETA archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com/ Thanks! This should be an interesting read, so that I can get all caught up. Being on vacation has its benefits. :) -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 3:04:46 PM, you wrote: > 8/22/2007 2:57 PM > Hi Rick, > On 8/22/2007 Rick Grunwald wrote: RG>> but there ARE some inconsistencies with the way some RG>> things are implemented. I have had issues (sorting and threading if I RG>> remember correctly) where it did not work the way it SAID it should RG>> work. Too many were quick to jump in and tell me it was supposed to RG>> work that way - even in the face of a contrary description. Just RG>> because someone has DONE it that way for a long time does not make the RG>> reasoning correct. > Agreed, I have also been irritated by seemingly irrational behavior. > That is not the point however, rather it is the method of dealing with > it. This guy just joined the club and wants TB! to act like his old > habits and bashes when it doesn't and spews volumes to describe > something that could be expressed in a well thought sentence. Please don't do that!! Apart from your grossly inaccurate depiction of what I'm writing (e.g. where did I bash anyone or anything?). there is no need to get personal. And if I breached anonymity and told the list who I was, you'd know that apart from being a highly trained and well respected developer, that I'm probably the _last_ person you'd want to be messing with at the personal [attack] level. So please, just don't do that. It is uncalled for and there is no reason for it. RG>> Then I want my DELETED VIEW TAB!!! > I supported this too. > Honey attracts more flies than vinegar. ...you're assuming that all flies like Honey or that from within a controlled environment (chaos theory notwithstanding) that flies would otherwise not be attracted to vinegar in the absence of Honey. You're wrong. Again. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 3:04:46 PM, you wrote: > 8/22/2007 2:57 PM > Hi Rick, > On 8/22/2007 Rick Grunwald wrote: RG>> but there ARE some inconsistencies with the way some RG>> things are implemented. I have had issues (sorting and threading if I RG>> remember correctly) where it did not work the way it SAID it should RG>> work. Too many were quick to jump in and tell me it was supposed to RG>> work that way - even in the face of a contrary description. Just RG>> because someone has DONE it that way for a long time does not make the RG>> reasoning correct. > Agreed, I have also been irritated by seemingly irrational behavior. > That is not the point however, rather it is the method of dealing with > it. This guy just joined the club and wants TB! to act like his old > habits and bashes when it doesn't and spews volumes to describe > something that could be expressed in a well thought sentence. Please don't do that!! Apart from your grossly inaccurate depiction of what I'm writing (e.g. where did I bash anyone or anything?). there is no need to get personal. And if I breached anonymity and told the list who I was, you'd know that I'm probably the _last_ person on God's Earth, that you want to be messing with at a personal level. So please, just don't do that. RG>> Then I want my DELETED VIEW TAB!!! > I supported this too. > Honey attracts more flies than vinegar. ...you're assuming that all flies like Honey or that from within a controlled environment (chaos theory notwithstanding) that flies would otherwise not be attracted to vinegar in the absence of Honey. You're wrong. Again. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 1:45:29 PM, you wrote: *snip* > Paul, he may not have understood that there will probably be no more > major add-ins or fixes in this version before it becomes version 4. I > think he does now. Indeed. But quite honestly, I really don't know what the furor is about. I don't see _any_ email where I've actually _asked_ for or _demanded_ something. All I've been doing is pointing out what I perceive to be inconsistencies. Having used various email software over the years and being a developer, this sort of thing sticks out - at least to me - like a sore thumb. I am on several dev programs for various industry companies such a nVidia, ATI/AMD, Microsoft etc. So this sort of thing is par for the course. You don't incite change. You influence change. BIG difference. Right now, I'm evaluating VS2008, I can't begin to tell you just much stuff in that version, was promised and/or overlooked in VS2005. Some, in fact many - many - changes in VS2005, came about as a result of the open developer Beta. Nobody yelled at me and several devs, for telling them - REPEATEDLY - that the darn feacp.dll usage in VS2005 was a resource hog and near brings the system to halt when versioning PCH. Did they listen? No. The result is that its the #1 complaint every dev that I know, has with VS2005. The fix? Delete or rename the file. When we complained incessantly that we really needed the ability to have more than one source control module, did they listen? No. The end result, you either use one, or create a batch file that changes the registry value that VS2005 looks for when determining which SCM to use. So, for us who use more than one (for reasons I'm not even going to get int) such as Code Co-Op and Subversion, we have no choice but to use a hack because MS won't budge. Lets not get into the fact that you can have as many plugins as you want. But when it comes to SCM, you can only have one. So, for TB!, I wasn't asking for anything to be changed and/or implemented one way or another. I'm not that arrogant to assume that after only a few days of using the Bat! that I'm going to be that influential. The bottom line is that over the years, I've used various email programs and switched. If I do switch from the Bat!, I'll do what I always do when I switch: tell everyone _not_ to use it, and give the reasons why and my _personal_ experiences with it. To me, $35 is nothing. I can't even fill up my vehicle's gas tank on that. So moving on - at some point - if the Bat!'s issues prove to be overwhelming in the long run, is meaningless to me. As long as I can convert my email to whatever target email program I go to, I'm fine. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.21 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[6]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 3:52:41 PM, you wrote: > In reply to : >>> It seems illogical for it to work that way with that view setting. It >>> seems you want to bend TB! to conform to you instead of learning how >>> to use the program. Thunderbird needs a developer, seems like a golden >>> opportunity for you. TB! is chock full of stuff not found elsewhere. >>> Is it perfect? What is? I>> Thats a pretty odd assumption. I>> If you can select all messages in one dialog and not the other, when I>> in fact BOTH dialogs offer the _same_ functionality, thats 100% I>> wrong and _inconsistent_. There's absolutely no argument there, unless I>> of course you're a fan of straw arguments. > It's not exactly the same functionality so it's not that inconsistent. > Who said that they should behave exactly the same way? Oh? Please explain why its not the same functionality. The _only_ difference between the two, is the view. Which is why we have... View/Attached Files/Hide (to button) View/Attached Files/Hide (to pane) View/Attached Files/Hide To me, when you see a cluster of such functionality, they are doing the same thing but giving the choice of how you want that data presented. So, - if I choose option #1, I can only delete a bunch of attachments, one by one. This is due to how the dialog was constructed. - if I choose option #2, I can delete a bunch of attachments one by one or collectively (as per Windows conventions). This is due to how the dialog was constructed. The fact you can do one thing - to reach the same end goal - in one and not the other, is an inconsistency. By your argument, I shouldn't be able to do CTRL+A to select all (text, objects or whatever) when viewing a text document in, say, MS Word, because I happened to have a picture visible at the same time. > I don't if you're going accept this comparison as reasonable but here > goes: "Thumbnail" view is one of the available views in Explorer were > it's possible to see the content of picture files before opening and > that's not possible in any of the available views. Its possible to CTRL+A in any view and delete all files from the view. The viewing of thumbnails presents completely different functionality from, say, displaying a list of files. So, it stands to reason that functionality would be different. In the case of this pane vs button ability to do CTRL+A, the functionality presented by _both_ is _identical_ i.e. you can view and delete attachments. The only problem is that it is _inconsistent_ in that you can delete all attachments in one but not the other. Oh, and the manual doesn't tell you this, nor why its this way. Just an FYI. > To mimic the functionality of the attachment pane to the attachments > button it would have to be possible to choose any random set of files > for deletion because its one of the possible thing you can do with the > pane view. Wrong. See my above explanation about 'functionality'. The functionality of the 'attachment display' has nothing to do with 'randomnesss' since the population of that [attachments] list is not random i.e. it displays attachments, not random bits of data objects pulled from elsewhere (as in random). -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[6]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 2:18:50 PM, you wrote: > 8/22/2007 2:14 PM > Hi Indie_Dev, > On 8/22/2007 Indie_Dev wrote: I>> Well, that can be resolved by just not reading topics that don't I>> interest you. > There was a great solution for this, the filter I just created sends > your messages to the trash. It allows me to focus on the contributors > who clean out the non-pertinent stuff in a reply and state problems > and suggestions in a manner focused on improvement rather than > bashing. Well then, there you go. That wasn't so hard now, was it? -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[4]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 3:38:51 PM, you wrote: > In reply to : *snip* >>> X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 >>> X-Mozilla-Status2: >>> X-Mozilla-Keys: >>> >>> X-Imported: from Eudora by Eudora Rescue 0.7 >>> Received: Eudora Rescue [0.7]; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:07:34 -0500 >>> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:07:34 -0500 >>> To: *censored* >>> From: *censored* >>> Subject: *censored* >>> X-Attachments: *censored* >>> Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>> MIME-Version: 1.0 >>> Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit > Errr... isn't that (the "Received:") the "import" date I mentioned as > required? I don't understand the question, but my point is that TB! can import the email without have to mess with the original 'Received' date of the email. Thats what is being set to in TB! and the actual 'Received' date, set to 'Created'. Hence the confusion in the sorting of emails. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Beta Changelog
Anyone have any idea where I can find it? I'd like to track the progress from my current [release] version to the current Beta before I make the plunge. :) -- Best regards, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[4]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 1:13:23 PM, you wrote: > 8/22/2007 1:05 PM > Hi Indie_Dev, > On 8/22/2007 Indie_Dev wrote: I>> As someone else pointed out, that does not work if you have I>> View/Attach Files (to Button) as the attachment setting, which is what I had set. > It seems illogical for it to work that way with that view setting. It > seems you want to bend TB! to conform to you instead of learning how > to use the program. Thunderbird needs a developer, seems like a golden > opportunity for you. TB! is chock full of stuff not found elsewhere. > Is it perfect? What is? Thats a pretty odd assumption. If you can select all messages in one dialog and not the other, when in fact BOTH dialogs offer the _same_ functionality, thats 100% wrong and _inconsistent_. There's absolutely no argument there, unless of course you're a fan of straw arguments. So, just because we point out that you can do it in one dialog and not the other means we who find it out want to bend TB to conform to us? Are you serious? Thats like saying that TB shouldn't fix the bug in the Mapi handling because that would be me trying to get it to conform to me, even though its clearly wrong (and requires a registry hack to work around, no less). And that nonsense about Thunderbird needing a programmer is just that, nonsense. Its the usual cop out. Look, I know that most of you are fanboys and there's nothing wrong with that. But my $35 means that I can point out what I bloody well feel like. You don't have to like it and I won't lose any sleep over what you think. Why? Because I really don't care. > I am growing very weary of spending three times as much time to read > messages in this forum while not gaining valuable information in the > process. I didn't have this problem a few days ago. Well, that can be resolved by just not reading topics that don't interest you. Just because there is a tree outside your window doesn't mean you have to look at it, let alone go out and hug it. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 11:34:35 AM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev I>>>> 1) Why is there no 'Delete All' option when I>>>> you click on the I>>>> attachment tab in the viewer page? If there I>>>> are several attachments I>>>> and you want to delete them, you have to I>>>> repeat the 'Delete' action I>>>> numerous times. God help you if some >> Since you can't do a Select All with the >> attachments dialog open, I >> get you can't get to the part where you actually >> get to press the >> key. >> Has anyone actually tried this? No, it doesn't >> work. Unless I missed >> something. > Click the first attachment you want to delete and then click the last > one in line and then hit delete. It should delete them all. > A in the attachment pane would be a nice enhancement though As someone else pointed out, that does not work if you have View/Attach Files (to Button) as the attachment setting, which is what I had set. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 11:13:21 AM, you wrote: > Hallo Indie_Dev, > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:31:32 -0400GMT (22-8-2007, 16:31 +0200, where I > live), you wrote: ID>> Why? I don't think it needs any such date. Why would you want to know ID>> the import date? > Maybe that's because that's relevant with regard to your purge > settings. You can set the maximum age in the purge settings for every > folder. That age doesn't count from the creation date, nor from the > date it was received at your ISP's server, but from the date the > message got in TB';s message base, whether it got there via pop3, imap > or import. Thats still not logical. If you're going to purge emails, there are lots of criteria which you can use, without having to resort to an additional - and improperly handled - header information. Yesterday, in this thread, I posted one of the emails from 1996 which has been exported from EudoraPro format to TB by a third party program. Here it is again. As you can see from line 4, the program did in fact insert a value in the header and which had no effect whatsoever on how Thunderbird handled the aging and sorting of my email. So, if I wanted to purge emails (e.g. all emails between 1996-1997) I can still do that in Thunderbird without requiring it messing with the 'received' date of my email during import. > X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 > X-Mozilla-Status2: > X-Mozilla-Keys: > > X-Imported: from Eudora by Eudora Rescue 0.7 > Received: Eudora Rescue [0.7]; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:07:34 -0500 > Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:07:34 -0500 > To: *censored* > From: *censored* > Subject: *censored* > X-Attachments: *censored* > Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Small Enhancement request
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 10:12:17 AM, you wrote:
> I have a small enhancement request:
> on several spots in TB there is a select folders dialog (e.g. 'Select
> folders' for Virtual folders and 'Use By' for View Mode).
> It would be very handy if these dialogs were extended:
> - with selection properties like in the Message finder ('Select all
> in account, select including sub-folders etc)
> - if the dialogs were resizable (so you can see more of the tree view)
> I could not find a request like this in BugTrack.
> Is this an existing request already?
> Do you agree that this is useful?
You can't post that here. You have to go to the WBUDL list
/me ducks while running
--
cheers,
Indie_Dev
Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[4]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 10:10:38 AM, you wrote: > In reply to : >>> Zygmunt Wereszczynski is quite right. The "Received" column means >>> "Received by TheBat!" and not "Received by the last mailserver". I>> We _know_ that. But its wrong and unconventional. Apart from the I>> fact that its not the RFC standard. I>> The Bat is not technically receiving the email. It is being I>> imported. It should _leave_ the headers as they are without I>> injecting that condition in it, which is what is causing the I>> problem. > Then, in addition to the receive date it should have an "import" date. Why? I don't think it needs any such date. Why would you want to know the import date? -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: "Delete All" vs "Select All" in attachement pane
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 9:59:17 AM, you wrote: > Hello, > Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 3:31:06 PM, you wrote: >>>>> You only need 3 clicks. One to select the first attachment, a second one >>>>> (shift+click) on the last attachment and _all_ (no matter the number) >>>>> will then be selected. Then, right click and select delete. I>> Plus, you can't even use that. When that attachment dialog opens, any I>> further key or mouse action, will close it. Which means, there is no I>> way to do multiple selections as per Windows (ctrl+, shift+) I>> conventions. > Tried Hendrik's solution and it wasn't possible. > Then I changed View - Attachments - Hide to Pane (instead of Hide to Button > as I normally have selected). > Then it works. (That is: it does here). > But it should be available to those who prefer "Hide to Button" for setup. Yep, just tried that and it works. Yes another GUI and interface related inconsistency. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 6:01:19 AM, you wrote: > Hello Zygmunt, > Cannot find a quick template "TyEn" >> On Tuesday, August 21, 2007, at 22:11:09 [UTC+0200] (Tuesday, August 21, >> 2007 22:11 my local time) Robert van der Hulst wrote: >>>> [...] The Bat! knows nothing about the the receiving in that program. >>>> The Bat! uses current date and set it as 'receive' date. >>>> When you retrieve (not import) messages from the archive, you retrieve all >>>> information, including receive date for each message. >>> That is not completely true. TB could extract the date from the >>> 'Received' headers in the email. For example your message has the >>> following Received headers in my message base: >> Of course, The Bat! could use last Received date form the message header, >> but as you know, this is the date when the message arrived to the server. >> When you connect to the server tomorrow, The Bat! will receive the message >> and >> write internally the tomorrow date as 'receiving' date. From this point of >> view >> all is logically correct. > You would be right if we were talking about receiving mails from a > server. But in case of importing mails from other clients, > this approach produces an undesired result. Exactly > And another bug is, that before importing user is not warned that he > will in fact *loose* some information. Just changing an email client > is not a good reason to loose the information about when I received > the email. -- Yes, *I* received an email (using my email client). Not > TheBat received an email, not Thunderbird, etc. *I* received the email > in a client I was using at that time. > How's this point of view to you all? You are 100% right. I'm a little concerned that this particular handling of imported email is actually in the Bat and remains as-is. As a software developer, I would think that making sure that someone moving to my product means that they have a seamless and worry-free experience. Whats the point of moving to TB if you're going to have a hard time sorting and filtering your email. TBH, if it wasn't for the fact that I can use a view (which uses a filter to set the creation date to a specific period) to properly see my emails, I'd just merge my new emails (after all its only been less than a week since I switched) back into TB, then go to using PocoMail until this is sorted in the Bat. Assuming they ever do it. At this point, I'm not going to jump to something else because I don't see any resistance coming from the developers. So hopefully our comments and suggestions are being considered. btw, when I was evaluating Pocomail and TB last week before making the jump, Pocomail imported my mails _exactly_ as they should be without any modifications. In fact, since I was using Vista, I wanted to see if Windows Mail had gotten any better. I was able to export/import my mail just fine. Naturally, using WM is just using Outlook Express. Its rubbish. I tried Windows Live Mail Desktop (Beta) as well. Same thing. My emails were just fine. I have no idea why they have chosen to do it this way and it boggles the mind. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 6:27:24 AM, you wrote: > Hi, > In reply to : I>> 1) Why is there no 'Delete All' option when you click on the I>> attachment tab in the viewer page? If there are several attachments I>> and you want to delete them, you have to repeat the 'Delete' action I>> numerous times. God help you if some relative decides to send you a I>> ton of pictures of their new baby voted most likely to be the next I>> anti-Christ. That means in order to delete 24 pictures of the next I>> anti-Christ, you have to do a total of (24*3) clicks. That, to me, is I>> patently unacceptable. > You can select all you need to delete and just hit ! > So there's really no point to have a delete all, I guess. Since you can't do a Select All with the attachments dialog open, I get you can't get to the part where you actually get to press the key. Has anyone actually tried this? No, it doesn't work. Unless I missed something. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 11:37:50 PM, you wrote: > "Indie_Dev" wrote on 22/08/2007 at 08:17:44 +1100 > subject "Interface Inconsistencies" : >> Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 4:45:03 PM, you wrote: >>> On Tuesday, August 21, 2007, at 22:11:09 [UTC+0200] (Tuesday, August 21, >>> 2007 22:11 my local time) Robert van der Hulst wrote: >>>>> [...] The Bat! knows nothing about the the receiving in that program. >>>>> The Bat! uses current date and set it as 'receive' date. >>>>> When you retrieve (not import) messages from the archive, you retrieve all >>>>> information, including receive date for each message. >>>> That is not completely true. TB could extract the date from the >>>> 'Received' headers in the email. For example your message has the >>>> following Received headers in my message base: >>> Of course, The Bat! could use last Received date form the message header, >>> but as you know, this is the date when the message arrived to the server. >>> When you connect to the server tomorrow, The Bat! will receive the message >>> and >>> write internally the tomorrow date as 'receiving' date. From this point of >>> view >>> all is logically correct. >> uhm, er, wot? > Zygmunt Wereszczynski is quite right. The "Received" column means > "Received by TheBat!" and not "Received by the last mailserver". We _know_ that. But its wrong and unconventional. Apart from the fact that its not the RFC standard. The Bat is not technically receiving the email. It is being imported. It should _leave_ the headers as they are without injecting that condition in it, which is what is causing the problem. > I could imagine that TheBat! adds some lines to the header of the > eMail. Maybe in this form: > Received: from 206.190.53.232 (EHLO mta232.mail.re2.yahoo.com) > (206.190.53.232) > by The Bat! (v3.xxx) UNREG(!) with POP3; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:31:20 +1100 > Received: from 87.234.203.180 (EHLO thrall.0x539.de) (87.234.203.180) > by mta232.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:25:29 -0700 > Then, even if eMail is exported, the original date of firs receiving > is still there. But for which purpose? It makes no sense and I have no idea why they do it. You can - like every other email program I've used - import email as-is without messing with the received date that is _already_ in the header. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: "Delete All" vs "Select All" in attachement pane (was: Interface Inconsistencies)
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 8:37:24 AM, you wrote: > "Indie_Dev" wrote on 22/08/2007 at 07:42:45 +1100 > subject "Interface Inconsistencies" : >>>> 1) Why is there no 'Delete All' option when you click on the >>>> attachment tab in the viewer page? If there are several attachments >>>> and you want to delete them, you have to repeat the 'Delete' action >>>> numerous times. God help you if some relative decides to send you a >>>> ton of pictures of their new baby voted most likely to be the next >>>> anti-Christ. That means in order to delete 24 pictures of the next >>>> anti-Christ, you have to do a total of (24*3) clicks. That, to me, is >>>> patently unacceptable. >>> You only need 3 clicks. One to select the first attachment, a second one >>> (shift+click) on the last attachment and _all_ (no matter the number) >>> will then be selected. Then, right click and select delete. >> Once again, I am _aware_ of the use of [undocumented] hotkeys. > This is not an undocumented hotkey. It's normal Windows feature. Each > Windows user is supposed to know this. I wasn't saying that it was undocumented in Windows. Hence the optional case [] statement in that line. Plus, you can't even use that. When that attachment dialog opens, any further key or mouse action, will close it. Which means, there is no way to do multiple selections as per Windows (ctrl+, shift+) conventions. Go ahead, try it. I just did and it does not work. Unless I'm missing something. Here is what I did. - left-click on attachment icon in message viewer. It then opens up to reveal all the attachments - press shift key in order to make further selection, removes the dialog - press mouse click in order to make further selection, removes the dialog So, with the dialog open, how can you make multiple selections without closing it? >> Was I >> talking about hotkeys? No. I was talking about the interface GUI in >> terms of _usability_. I have a hand holding the mouse. Using that hand, >> I can do some tasks (delete one) but not the other (delete all) when >> in fact it makes _no_ sense that I shouldn't. Especially when you >> consider that they are both related. > It makes sense that it does not exist, as it is not an usual command > in the Windows interface. > I think that "Select all" Ctrl+A is missing, _not_ "Delete all". True. I suppose a "Select All" and then pressing the "Delete" key would solve that problem. Nevertheless, given my above experiment, that won't work either because as soon as you press the CTRL key, the dialog will be removed, thus preventing any further ops. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 3:59:23 AM, you wrote: > Hello TheOneWhoKnowsWhoHeIsButKeepsForgettingHisName, > Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 3:45:08 AM, you wrote: I>> * God I hope everyone on the list gets my [warped and coffee-induced] brand of humor I>> or I'm in for a serious beating any day now. > Now you start talking to yourself! LOL!!! -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Problem with Mapi under Vista
Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 4:11:16 AM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_dev, > Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 22:33:37, you wrote: >>>Are there any plans to fix this problem with Mapi and Vista? I am >>>using Vista Ultimate and ran into the same problem. I had to resort to >>>the registry hack in the thread below to fix it. >>>http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forum/read.php?FID=4&TID=4866&MID=18662&phrase_id=336181#message18662 > Thank you, we have just fixed the problem 'cannot open the file "mailto:"; > error message'. Excellent!! -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 7:12:53 PM, you wrote: > Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 6:34:35 PM, you wrote: >> Hello Indie_Dev, >>>> This list is TBBeta, to discuss beta versions bugs and issues. You are >>>> using the latest release version (3.99.03) and not the latest beta >>>> (3.99.20). >>> >>> I fail to see the relevance. And I consider myself to be a fairly >>> smart guy. >>> >>> I don't want to have to use a Beta version to outline problems which >>> are in the Beta as well as the general release version. >> Let's see if you are smart enough to understand this: >> ,- [ ] >> | >> | TBBETA Mission statement >> | >> | The TBBETA list has been set up for the purpose of discussing The >> | Bat! officially released Beta test versions and related issues. For >> | general topics of a more simple nature regarding full release >> | versions, refer to TBUDL. For more complex topics refer to TBTECH. >> | >> | An 'officially released' beta version is one which has been >> | announced *by RITlabs* on the TBBETA list, usually with a list of >> | changes. >> `- > Which, of course IMO, is meaningless and makes _no_ sense. Here's why: > 1. The Beta build contains the _same_ problems that plague the release > build. > 2. I don't intend to use - a largely buggy Beta (hence the term) - so > that I can get to be 'officially' allowed to post about issues which > plague both the Beta _and_ the release builds. *snip* As if by magic, this just popped up. My guess is that this 'bug' is also in the Beta as it is in the release build. http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forum/read.php?FID=4&TID=4910&MID=19077#message19077read.php?FID=4&TID=4910&MID=19077message19077 Please note the most recent post in that thread and note the wording. In fact, let me quote it for you. " Can anyone tell me if this problem will be looked into? Thanks." This is _exactly_ what I'm talking about. This person is neither in the Beta list nor that other list. He is posting in the forum. My guess is that the response to either avenue (this list, that list, the forum) is the same: nobody has a clue. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 7:52:21 PM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, >> X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.99.3) UNREG >> >> I'm a paying customer. > Hm! I think something doesn't match. >> And if you even had any idea who I was... > I simply don't care who your are my friend. > I will insist: > - Whether you like it, or not, this list is to discuss Beta issues. > Please show some respect for the rest of list members. > - To report bugs: https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/main_page.php > - To suggest changes/additions, please use the Wish List (select 'The > Bat! Wishes' on the drop-down list in the top-right corner of above > page). Do me a favor OK? First, start by paying attention. Second, tone down the rhetoric. I'm not looking for a fight. I've been polite, direct and clear. Never wrote anything in a derogatory or demeaning context. By your assertion, my saying that the attachment dialog should have a 'Delete All' because there is a 'Save All' constitutes a 'change' or 'addition'. You're wrong. What I wrote has nothing to do with either, but rather my comments were designed to point out inconsistencies in those features which - btw - started out being changes & additions before the were adopted and thus implemented. The point of my email was _not_ to make wishlist suggestions or any such request. In fact, all nine items which I outlined are based on existing functionality, hence they are not 'wish list' items or changes. They are - (pay attention here) - based on _my_ opinions. I never asked you or anyone to adopt nor agree with said opinions. As such, your time is better spent _discussing_ the points which you disagree with, rather than attempting to engage me in pointless and counter-productive banter that is not only disruptive and disrespectful, but also impolite and not proper form. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 8:28:25 PM, you wrote: > Hello Marck, > Sorry, I hit Send to soon on my previous reply. >>>> and related issues. >> >> ... and here is where Indie_Dev is quite right. If he has issues that >> are not yet resolved and, therefore, relate to the current beta, > How does he know what issues are not yet resolved if, as he wrote, he > doesn't even "intend to use - a largely buggy Beta"? > I could point out other "inconsistencies", but it's time to go to bed I don't. I never said I did. And your assertion is clearly outside the scope of the discussion; which, btw, has nothing to do with 'whats fixed' but rather my - politely and in a detailed fashion - pointing out what I - personally - feel are inconsistencies in the GUI. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 8:09:58 PM, you wrote: > Hello Marck, >>>> Let's see if you are smart enough to understand this: >> >> Sorry, Miguel, don't like the tone of this too much, but I do know >> English is not your first language. I also know that it's not in your >> nature to be deliberately rude. Indie_Dev does not know you so well, >> so this intervention is as much to protect you as it is to put an >> "official" POV into the mix. > Thank you for trying to 'protect' me Marck but, even in my second > language, I knew very well what I wanted to write and wrote it And when you're all grown up and experienced, you'll learn to do what I did in response to your off hand comment. I ignored it and stuck to the discussion at hand. Potshots are for school yard bullies and people who are - clearly - out of their league. Who you choose to be is entirely up to you. I know who I am and potshots are meaningless. Life's too short and I only have a pair of tits which refuse to grow any bigger than my wife's. So, I have a lot more things to worry about than potshots on a mailing list. Lets more on, shall we? -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 7:47:04 PM, you wrote: *snip* ID>> 2. I don't intend to use - a largely buggy Beta (hence the term) - > ... > Just FYI, the current beta round is a HGE bugfix cycle. The fact > is that there are many less bugs in the *current* beta than in the > actual release version. Not all beta cycles are thus, obviously, and > your caution is perfectly understandable. Just to clarify, I was not knocking the Beta, even though it is Beta. I meant that if the Beta was meant to be used in a production environment, it won't be a Beta. So, compared to the release build which works - and is designed for production - the Beta is, well, buggy as that is the nature of the beast. *snip* ID>> How you folks choose for me to report issues is, believe it or ID>> not, _not_ up to you. I can send emails, post on the forum, post ID>> on the Beta list, post on the TBUDL list or send a courier pigeon. > ... which just landed in my garden and ate my freshly planted corn > seed! Can you keep to the electronic forms of contact next time > please? LOL ID>> It shouldn't matter. What should matter is (a) whether or not you ID>> pay attention or (b) you actually acknowledge the issues and ID>> actually do something about it. > Okay - what we tend to do here is mull the issues, decide when we've > caught a live one and then one of us (lowly list members and users > that we are) scurries off to the BugTraq system to create (as > appropriate) a BugTraq or a WishList entry for the guys in the > darkened rooms with the crazed expressions to pounce upon like a > beggar upon a morsel. Only once a confirmed BugTraq entry exists (and > there are many of these) will it be assigned a programmer and the bug > be swatted. Wishlist entries have a harder time of reaching daylight > since there are other marketing pressures on RITlabs limited > resources. And a very full roster of bugs to hunt too. ...and thats the way to do it. My point was that, as far as the devs are concerned, they can do what they want. After all, its their software. In my software design, when I get wish list items or over the top suggestions that bear no relevance to my overall 'vision', I just send out a polite "uhm, no" or an impolite and hasty "...you're frigging kidding me, right. Do you want to be slapped or flogged?" response. And believe me, my Beta testers are the kind who would super glue worms to the sidewalk and film the birds getting hernias trying to pick them up. So, yes, I'm used to all manner of dissent, malcontent and well, general abuse from people who _think_ they know whats best for your software that you, the developer. The problem - and sad thing is - more often than not, they actually do know a bit more about how they think stuff should go than you the developer who is too close to tell the trees from the forest. What you do with the feedback is up to you, the developer. ID>> My guess is that (b) is the pre-requisite action given that, like ID>> every software ever written, most of the bugs and shortcomings are not ID>> found by the developers but the users. In case you were wondering, ID>> 'users' would be someone like me. > ... nay - like nearly all of us here. > Your points are well made and I (officially) support your right to > make them. *Well thanks dad (my biggest fan). How's mom doing? * God I hope everyone on the list gets my [warped and coffee-induced] brand of humor or I'm in for a serious beating any day now. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 6:34:35 PM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, >>> This list is TBBeta, to discuss beta versions bugs and issues. You are >>> using the latest release version (3.99.03) and not the latest beta >>> (3.99.20). >> >> I fail to see the relevance. And I consider myself to be a fairly >> smart guy. >> >> I don't want to have to use a Beta version to outline problems which >> are in the Beta as well as the general release version. > Let's see if you are smart enough to understand this: > ,- [ ] > | > | TBBETA Mission statement > | > | The TBBETA list has been set up for the purpose of discussing The > | Bat! officially released Beta test versions and related issues. For > | general topics of a more simple nature regarding full release > | versions, refer to TBUDL. For more complex topics refer to TBTECH. > | > | An 'officially released' beta version is one which has been > | announced *by RITlabs* on the TBBETA list, usually with a list of > | changes. > `- Which, of course IMO, is meaningless and makes _no_ sense. Here's why: 1. The Beta build contains the _same_ problems that plague the release build. 2. I don't intend to use - a largely buggy Beta (hence the term) - so that I can get to be 'officially' allowed to post about issues which plague both the Beta _and_ the release builds. Your argument is flawed, without merit and not in the spirit of fostering and requisitioning feedback from those who can actually speak up (and out) about issues without having to succumb to fanboyism. I was polite, to the point and quite detailed in my reporting of issues. Thats because I'm a software developer and wouldn't expect any less from someone reporting to me (or one of my devs) about my software. And if you even had _any_ idea who I was or what software I develop for a living, you would know that apart from speaking from experience, my software is sold to the most unforgiving, passionate and abusively abrasive bunch this side of a customer base. Get this. I'm a paying customer. How you folks choose for me to report issues is, believe it or not, _not_ up to you. I can send emails, post on the forum, post on the Beta list, post on the TBUDL list or send a courier pigeon. It shouldn't matter. What should matter is (a) whether or not you pay attention or (b) you actually acknowledge the issues and actually do something about it. My guess is that (b) is the pre-requisite action given that, like every software ever written, most of the bugs and shortcomings are not found by the developers but the users. In case you were wondering, 'users' would be someone like me. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 4:45:03 PM, you wrote: > On Tuesday, August 21, 2007, at 22:11:09 [UTC+0200] (Tuesday, August 21, > 2007 22:11 my local time) Robert van der Hulst wrote: >>> [...] The Bat! knows nothing about the the receiving in that program. >>> The Bat! uses current date and set it as 'receive' date. >>> When you retrieve (not import) messages from the archive, you retrieve all >>> information, including receive date for each message. >> That is not completely true. TB could extract the date from the >> 'Received' headers in the email. For example your message has the >> following Received headers in my message base: > Of course, The Bat! could use last Received date form the message header, > but as you know, this is the date when the message arrived to the server. > When you connect to the server tomorrow, The Bat! will receive the message and > write internally the tomorrow date as 'receiving' date. From this point of > view > all is logically correct. uhm, er, wot? -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 4:11:09 PM, you wrote: > Hi Zygmunt, > On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, at 21:52:02 [GMT +0200] (which was 21:52 where I live) > you wrote about: 'Interface Inconsistencies' >> The 'received' date is not a part of the message header, it is stored only >> in the internal database of The Bat!. So, if you import messages from other >> programs, The Bat! knows nothing about the the receiving in that program. >> The Bat! uses current date and set it as 'receive' date. >> When you retrieve (not import) messages from the archive, you retrieve all >> information, including receive date for each message. > That is not completely true. TB could extract the date from the > 'Received' headers in the email. For example your message has the > following Received headers in my message base: > Received: from thrall.0x539.de (thrall.its-toasted.org [87.234.203.181]) > by heliks.nl with ESMTP (Mailtraq/2.11.0.2212) id HLKS65DD3D78 > for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:52:38 +0200 > Received: from draenor.its-toasted.org ([87.234.203.178] ident=list) > by thrall.0x539.de with esmtp (Exim 4.63) > (envelope-from <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) > id 1INZls-0005Vt-Ar; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:52:12 +0200 > Received: from data.pl ([212.85.96.58] helo=v00058.home.net.pl) > by draenor.its-toasted.org with smtp (Exim 4.50) id 1INZln-gN-3s > for tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:52:07 +0200 > Received: from localhost (HELO chello089077112192.chello.pl) > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]@127.0.0.1) > by mail03.home.net.pl with SMTP; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:52:01 - > In this case TB could see that the message is received by the mail > server on Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:52:38 +0200 Exactly. Which is what I was questioning in my previous reply. In the case of one of the emails, this is what the header looks like. But when imported, TB decided to override that and cause all manner of sorting issues by making it look like it was in fact received on the date of import (08/07) instead of the date of creation (08/96) X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: X-Mozilla-Keys: X-Imported: from Eudora by Eudora Rescue 0.7 Received: Eudora Rescue [0.7]; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:07:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:07:34 -0500 To: *censored* From: *censored* Subject: *censored* X-Attachments: *censored* Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Note that even the tool (Eudora Rescue) which I used to export my email from EudoraPro to TB, handled the dates correctly. As did TB (Thunderbird) when I created the resulting mailbox. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 3:52:02 PM, you wrote: > On Tuesday, August 21, 2007, at 14:19:40 [UTC-0400] (Tuesday, August 21, > 2007 20:19 my local time) Indie_Dev wrote: >> 4) After importing a batch of emails from another program (e.g. TB), >> why is the 'received' date imported incorrectly? e.g. I recently >> switched from TB to TB! and imported a ton of emails going back many >> years. So now, I have - for e.g. - a folder with emails with received >> dates of 2007 with creation dates of far back as 1996 but filtered >> in the [threaded] view of 'Today' or 'Last Week' Thats just ridiculous. > The 'received' date is not a part of the message header, it is stored only > in the internal database of The Bat!. So, if you import messages from other > programs, The Bat! knows nothing about the the receiving in that program. > The Bat! uses current date and set it as 'receive' date. > When you retrieve (not import) messages from the archive, you retrieve all > information, including receive date for each message. Yes, I am aware of that. But that still does not answer my question as to _why_ its this way. Even removing the 'received' date field doesn't do any good due to the [unconventional] internal handling of the imported emails. btw, looking at the RFC standards, thats handled incorrectly to boot. The Bat! is using 'received' improperly as it pertains to _new_ emails (from the import), even though - according to RFC standards - the 'creation date' is what should determine that specific handling. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 3:42:45 PM, you wrote: > Hello Indie_Dev, >> resend since first version from this morning was more than 50KB and >> the moderator hasn't approved it yet. >> >> * original * >> >> Here's the thing. There are several interface inconsistencies which >> are trivial and which IMO as a commercial software developer, >> should be addressed. > This list is TBBeta, to discuss beta versions bugs and issues. You are > using the latest release version (3.99.03) and not the latest beta > (3.99.20). I fail to see the relevance. And I consider myself to be a fairly smart guy. I don't want to have to use a Beta version to outline problems which are in the Beta as well as the general release version. Going by the rules of software development (this is the part where you take note of what I'm saying), if there is a Beta program, thats where you report issues related to _incoming_ and _future_ fixes due to issues and the like. Why? Because reporting them on the - largely ignored website forum - is tantamount to reporting it to - yet another - list which, unlike the Beta program is not geared toward fixing nor addressing issues. Even if it were; where would those fixes and issues be addressed? Thats right. In the upcoming versions which are prepped (as in 'Beta') and tested for future 'release'. So, it - obviously - makes sense to report them to the active development area (as in 'Beta') so that the developers are in fact aware of them. > Aside of that, your comments are generic. I think you should > post them in TBUDL and not here. Well, they may be generic to you, but not to me - someone looking in from the outside. More often than not, when developers are too close to their product, it is hard to see whats wrong (or right, as the case may be) with it. Especially where feedback is concerned. Bug reports are a whole different ballgame since you can only fix what you can reproduce reliably. Suggestions and the pointing out of program consistencies are usually beyond the scope [of thinking] of those close to the project. Which brings me to... Focus groups and outside testing (which is what, believe it or not, this Beta program is all about) of said software in order that 'fresh eyes' be able to see said program from a different light and not just the developer's version of tunnel vision. I have developed several commercial programs and I can guarantee you 100% that the number of people using my products probably eclipse those using The Bat! by, oh a few thousand to one. So, unlike someone just spouting off, I _do_ know what I'm talking about. What you guys do with my suggestions is clearly up to you. I don't care either way and I have nothing invested in it. I just want to help because one's investment in an email program - the most advanced and crucial form of communications of our time - is not to be taken lightly. There is a reason why all phones now come with a speakerphone, when in the past you had to look for a phone that _had_ such a feature. Its called progress based on demand. >> 1) Why is there no 'Delete All' option when you click on the >> attachment tab in the viewer page? If there are several attachments >> and you want to delete them, you have to repeat the 'Delete' action >> numerous times. God help you if some relative decides to send you a >> ton of pictures of their new baby voted most likely to be the next >> anti-Christ. That means in order to delete 24 pictures of the next >> anti-Christ, you have to do a total of (24*3) clicks. That, to me, is >> patently unacceptable. > You only need 3 clicks. One to select the first attachment, a second one > (shift+click) on the last attachment and _all_ (no matter the number) > will then be selected. Then, right click and select delete. Once again, I am _aware_ of the use of [undocumented] hotkeys. Was I talking about hotkeys? No. I was talking about the interface GUI in terms of _usability_. I have a hand holding the mouse. Using that hand, I can do some tasks (delete one) but not the other (delete all) when in fact it makes _no_ sense that I shouldn't. Especially when you consider that they are both related. Plus, your suggestion points to - yet another - inconsistency If you can do 'Save All' and 'Save All To', without resorting to hotkeys, why not, oh I dunno, 'Delete All'? > I may make more comments to your issues if you post them in the > appropriate mailing list, TBUDL. No need. I wasn't looking for a debate (or argument) and I have no intentions of joining another list just so I get to repeat myself. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Problem with Mapi under Vista
Are there any plans to fix this problem with Mapi and Vista? I am using Vista Ultimate and ran into the same problem. I had to resort to the registry hack in the thread below to fix it. http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forum/read.php?FID=4&TID=4866&MID=18662&phrase_id=336181#message18662 -- Best regards, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Interface Inconsistencies
Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 2:45:42 PM, you wrote: > On Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 20:19:40, Indie_Dev wrote: >> 3) In threaded view, why is there no option (not even in the >> right-click menu) to expand or collapse a thread? I have discussion >> threads going back several months. If someone replies, I have to troll >> through many - many - many - many trees (of the same thread due to >> discussion branching) to get to the current 'unread' message or a >> particular message that I'm looking for. Sure if you're looking for >> unread messages, you can use the 'Unread' view to see a new incoming >> message, but thats not the point. > The treeview behaves similar as the standard Windows treeviews - > pressing * will expand all threads, and pressing Ctrl++ will expand > current thread. You can also use spacebar to jump to the next unread > message (after paging through current message), which is another > function common to many mail and newsreaders. Alternatively, you can > use Ctrl+] to jump straight to the next unread message. I know about the hotkeys and _how_ they work. Was I talking about hotkeys? Did I even mention hotkeys? No, I didn't. I was talking about menus. > The right-click menu in headers pane is already pretty cluttered, and > I don't think adding even more options to it would improve it > (besides, I have yet to see a treeview which has these options in a > menu). In the right-click/thread dialog, I see onlyseven options. How does adding two more, make it cluttered; when in fact that right-click itself has no less than 24 options? e.g. right-click/thread/expand-all right-click/thread/collapse-all In interface and GUI design (u may or may not be aware of this) a hotkey usually corresponds to a menu option as per Microsoft's specs for accessibility and whatnot. If you'd like, I can dig up the correct MSDN and/or technet specs for you. So, making use of the hotkeys is one thing. Having corresponding menu options is clearly another. Having one without the other is an inconsistency - and that which my email served to point out. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Interface Inconsistencies
> 8) The import of Unix mailboxes with folders is also inconsistent. > * You export a folder (e.g. 'media') containing subfolders (inbox, > outbox, sent) > * Since you know they are in a specific [Unix] format, you click on > a mailbox (e.g. Inbox) within an account and then use the "Tools/Import > Messages" > dialog. > Now you end up with a tree structure like this: > account_name ->>Inbox ->>media ->>media/inbox ->>media/outbox ->>media/Sent > Thats all well and good and is what its supposed to do. I forgot to add that it actually imported the data incorrectly. The data from the top 'media' folder, ended up in \Inbox instead of in \Inbox\media. So, I had to go into that Inbox and delete the files. Which brings me to the next inconsistency... 9) While I was in the process of deleting the emails which were put in the wrong folder above, selected all the emails and hit the delete key. Only the current message was deleted. OK. So I tried using move-to/trash folder. Nothing happened. In order to delete those emails, I had to switch from threaded view to 'no view mode' and then repeated the select all/delete op. Seriously, is this how its supposed to work? ps. The attached shot is from item (4) in the previous email. I increased the file compression to bring the file size down. <> Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Interface Inconsistencies
#x27;d end up with a tree that looks _exactly_ as the above. Without first selecting 'Inbox' within the 'account_name', you could never import the 'media' email tree because the option to do so is disabled and since the files are in a different format, you can't use the import wizard because it expects only certain types of emails. What is even curioser to me is that the import wizard has options for Netscape but not Mozilla Thunderbird. How hard can it be to add that option? Especially since the format used by Thunderbird is already a known (Unix) format that is, as a matter of fact, a _standard_ format. That said... All in all, I think its a pretty solid email program but still needs some polish and minor tweaks here and there. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Current beta is 3.99.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Exporting Emails
Well, the whole email importing/exporting business needs to be properly documented as per my recent thread in the forums. -- cheers, Indie_Dev Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 8:19:25 AM, you wrote: > The behavior for Exporting has changed a couple of versions ago > Formerly when exporting a message to a folder, when you looked in the > folder, there would be the message > Now there is the message plus all kinds of other stuff (index.html > etc) > Confirm anyone? Current beta is 3.99.18 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
