Re: Ctrl-F4

[Allie Martin]

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:19:07 +0800, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

[..snip..]

SL>> I recommend not doing it.  "Techno-pritanical", to me, seems to
SL>> be used in an offensive manner.  First off, don't munge the address
SL>> without a damned good reason.  This is not a damned good reason.

> Didn't we go through this a couple of months ago, with the result that
> you can switch it off? "Do NOT use FROM name for REPLY-TO address"
> Account/Properties/Templates/Reply. What is the purpose of this
> renewed discussion?

Ah Thomas, why are you acting as if discussions don't resurface
because of new subscribers among other things. Anyway, Steve does make a
good point. He among others dislike seeing their names being associated
with an address that is not theirs. If *you* write a reply to Steve and
you haven't disabled the option at *your* end, guess what he'll see:

Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

And yet, he has disabled the option at his end. Therefore to maintain
the piece and not offend recipients of my note, I'll not do things
inflammatory and this in my reply template:

%TO=""%TO="TBUDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"

This will allow you to keep the name association enabled but the macro
above will prevent it from taking effect with TBUDL. Yes, Thomas, that's
another reason for placing this macro in the reply template. ;-D

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Allie Martin]

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:21:46 -0600, Douglas Hinds wrote:

[..snip..]

> You are right and I have noticed that. But - if you correct it, the
> next time around it will do it the was it was done last. As you say,
> it's auto completion, which sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't.
> Even then, the autocompleted part stays selected so you can continue
> typing and it will try another option. This is my interpretation of
> what I see happening.

It should give choices of legitimate addresses only, whether they be
correct or incorrect.

AM>> That should never happen. The auto-completion is for legitimate
AM>> addressing.

> You mean from the address book? If so, just hit F8 and choose your
> address(es).

No, that's not what I meant. The auto-completion shouldn't recognize
name and address associations as 'allie martin<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'.
They are technically incorrect and are generated to promote clarity for
the recipient. What does that have to do with filling out the To: field
manually with the aid of auto-completion? See my point now?

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Allie Martin]

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:02:07 +0800, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

[..snip..]

SL>> No, turn on message list in the view folder (remember, it isn't view
SL>> message) window.

> Latest on this (and closing statement): I've found this virutal
> folder, I *love* it, and have no idea how I ever lived without out it.
> Bye-bye preview pane. :-)

Welcome Thomas. Believe me, you'll find more joy in using the View
Folder method of going through mail. The preview pane seems to cause more
problems than good. :)

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Re: Ctrl-F4 (was: Re: Message not intended for posting on TBUDL)

[Allie Martin]

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:05:03 +0800, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

>>> off-list reply is Ctrl-F4. It works every time. Get used to it and
>>> avoid embarrassing stains - I mean - incidents. ;-)

MG>> Careful with your suggestions. This doesn't work when somebody, such
MG>> as me, has '%TO=""%TO="TBUDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"' in his/her
MG>> reply template.

> Why would you have such a macro in your reply template? I failt to see
> the reason.

I guess to have TBUDL appear in the To: column instead of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]?

The next thing is that Ctrl-F4 *does* work as it should with that
macro in the reply template. I just tried it. :)


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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Steve,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:47:28 -0800 GMT (22.01.2000, 14:47 +0800 GMT),
Steve Lamb wrote:

>> What is the purpose of this renewed discussion?

SL> The fact that making it an option still doesn't remove it as a bug?

Even nobody seems to have changed his/her opinion about this question
in the meantime? Well then. Just thought I'd ask. ;-)

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: TB! v 1.39 Installation

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Jast & all fellow TBUDL members,

Friday, January 21, 2000, 11:14:43 PM, Jast wrote in response the
question:

>> How long did it take you all to get a working installation of TB!?  It
>> took me a long time.  That was a lot of work.

J>  IIRC,  it  took me about an hour or two the very first time, which I think is
J>  okay  considering  all  I had used before was the ugly CompuServe WinCIM...
J>  Of course, now it takes me 5 minutes to install it and get some mail

FWIW, Installing TB 1.35, configuring 5 accounts and and downloading
mail in Nov. took about 30 minutes w/ no trouble at all. This when a
number of well known others won't even run on this machine. Others
will look at a download of 500 messages and freeze. Netscape Messenger
also has consistently performed in a well behaved manner in this
computer, but the version I have is for a single account and changing
incoming server + user name info often gets old fast.

TB may require a fair amount of system resources, but it's stable and
will continue to improve with time.

DH

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 8:19:07 PM, Thomas wrote:
> Didn't we go through this a couple of months ago, with the result that
> you can switch it off? "Do NOT use FROM name for REPLY-TO address"
> Account/Properties/Templates/Reply. What is the purpose of this
> renewed discussion?

The fact that making it an option still doesn't remove it as a bug?

-- 
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Re: Ctrl-F4 - the dead horse walks again, hopefuuly for the last time

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Douglas,

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:19:59 -0600 GMT (22.01.2000, 14:19 +0800 GMT),
Douglas Hinds wrote some emotional stuff.

Take it off-list, please.

-- 

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Steve et al,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:26:34 -0800 GMT (22.01.2000, 01:26 +0800 GMT),
Steve Lamb wrote:

>> Do I have to configure the ticker somewhere?

SL> No, turn on message list in the view folder (remember, it isn't view
SL> message) window.

Latest on this (and closing statement): I've found this virutal
folder, I *love* it, and have no idea how I ever lived without out it.
Bye-bye preview pane. :-)

-- 

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Having to kill Dupes

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Tom,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:00:49 -0800 GMT (22.01.2000, 05:00 +0800 GMT),
Tom Plunket wrote:

TF>> I tried it again, and: the Dispatcher no longer deletes! I know it
TF>> worked in an earlier version, but today it definitely did not.
TF>> Furthermore, my killfilter didn't kill this message to
TF>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] - it used to.

TP> Works here on my installation, see headers for version.

Can anybody else confirm that "delete on server" (kill filters as well
as despatcher) worked in 1.38e but doesn't work in 1.39 any more?


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Re: Ctrl-F4 (was: Re: Message not intended for posting on TBUDL)

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Markus,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:01:39 +0100 GMT (22.01.2000, 01:01 +0800 GMT),
Markus Gloede wrote:

>> off-list reply is Ctrl-F4. It works every time. Get used to it and
>> avoid embarrassing stains - I mean - incidents. ;-)

MG> Careful with your suggestions. This doesn't work when somebody, such
MG> as me, has '%TO=""%TO="TBUDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"' in his/her
MG> reply template.

Why would you have such a macro in your reply template? I failt to see
the reason.

-- 

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[4]: Ctrl-F4 - the dead horse walks again,hopefuuly for the last time

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Tom & all fellow TBUDL members,

Friday, January 21, 2000, 4:55:06 PM, Tom wrote in response to my saying:

DH>> You are saying then that you are unhappy with that design choice.
DH>> I would think that with your skill you could design an email
DH>> client to your own ideals. Alternatively, you could discuss this
DH>> with the programmers.

TP> Ahh, now we're done saying "learn to deal with it", and have started
TP> saying "if you don't like it, just go write your own."

You obviously have a number of options, including the intentional
distortion of my remarks, making snide remarks of your own and
disregarding the moderators request to drop the excessive antagonism
you've chosen to associate with this thread.

TP> The reason *I* buy software is not because I *can't* write it, it's
TP> because I *don't want to*.  My business is making video games,

That explains it: saturated with violence and fantasy.

TP> *sigh* Sorry list. I'll just start filtering Doug's name from now
TP> on, too many posts simply enrage me.

I'm sorry you seem unable to control your rage, but I'm sure the
source is internal. You try too hard at the wrong things. In spite of
the friendly post I sent you off list earlier today in order to start
anew, you have this new to keeping harping about which can only be
rightfully described as a dead horse.

I'll end by pasting in the ending of my note sent to Tom off line
earlier today (it was still before midnight here when I wrote that):

   I really don't feel any serious problem exists between us. For my
   part, let's get on with the show.

(The off line reply I received from TP was MUCH nastier than this one).

I really do have other things to do and am sure that's true with the
rest of the list. If you have to address me at all, do it off list. I
will NOT respond to any further TBUDL posts from you to me unless a
radical improvement is forthcoming, which at this point is hard to
expect. These tantrums and personal insinuations have nothing to do
with TB! and the show will go on with or without you. Not all of us
play games.
   
DH

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Re[2]: TB! v 1.39 Installation

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Peter & all fellow TBUDL members,

Friday, January 21, 2000, 6:17:42 PM, Peter wrote in response to my saying:

>> The file - that was downloaded on Jan 19 from
>> http://www.ritlabs.com/ftp/pub/the_bat/the_bat.exe
>> is evidently not a compressed file and wants to go into a setup
>> routine when I click on it. Do I need to go through that?

PS> It is a self-extracting RAR archive. You can open it with e.g.
PS> WinRAR (www.rarsoft.com) without executing it.

I have winrar installed and expected it to take over, if the file was
compressed, which it didn't. Thanks to your tip, I opened winrar and
dragged the file to it, which then should it's contents. I had later
downloaded the .exe file only from the beta site, and replaced the
1.38e .exe file with that this morning. Can't say I notice a
difference yet.

PS> There was a discussion on this list or TBBETA some weeks ago on
PS> compressing utilities, mentioning other freeware and shareware tools
PS> capable of reading RAR format, perhaps you find it in the archive...

Another good TB buddy gave me the url for it some time back. TBUDL has
turned out to be not only a reliable source of TB support, but an
outstanding example of civility and citizenry. Lasting friendships
that go far beyond the list itself are already coming from it. Sure TB
has bugs and the will continue to be found and corrected, as the
mailer is improved. New bugs will arise but those too will be taken
care of.

Thanks again for the tip.

Douglas

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Re: Ctrl-F4 - the dead horse walks again, hopefuuly for the last time

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 10:19:59 PM, Douglas wrote:
> You obviously have a number of options, including the intentional
> distortion of my remarks, making snide remarks of your own and
> disregarding the moderators request to drop the excessive antagonism
> you've chosen to associate with this thread.

Actually, Doug, they weren't distorted.  You did basically tell people
that they could write their own of they so chose.

TP>> The reason *I* buy software is not because I *can't* write it, it's
TP>> because I *don't want to*.  My business is making video games,

> That explains it: saturated with violence and fantasy.

Also means he's got a lot more intelligence than most people.  Notable on
that list, you.

> I'm sorry you seem unable to control your rage, but I'm sure the
> source is internal. You try too hard at the wrong things. In spite of
> the friendly post I sent you off list earlier today in order to start
> anew, you have this new to keeping harping about which can only be
> rightfully described as a dead horse.

Yet here you are perpetuating it.  Furthermore it is most often you that
distorts people's words.  In the few messages I've seen from you haven't once
gotten what people have so clearly said.  You distort them and make conflict
where there is none.

You're the first on this list.  *plonk*

I don't have time for people who through design or nature are being
blatantly ignorant.

> expect. These tantrums and personal insinuations have nothing to do
> with TB! and the show will go on with or without you. Not all of us
> play games.

Go away, Doug, you're the problem.

-- 
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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Steve,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:14:07 -0800 GMT (22.01.2000, 02:14 +0800 GMT),
Steve Lamb wrote:

>> I can tell when someone has replied to one of my postings and zoom in on it
>> as a point of interest.

SL> You can do that with threading or having a filter search for your MSGID
SL> identifier and mark the message as high, or copy it into another folder.

Yes, you can. But, as stated before, everybody is different. Actually,
I use the same approach as Marck.

SL> I recommend not doing it.  "Techno-pritanical", to me, seems to be used
SL> in an offensive manner.  First off, don't munge the address without a damned
SL> good reason.  This is not a damned good reason.

Didn't we go through this a couple of months ago, with the result that
you can switch it off? "Do NOT use FROM name for REPLY-TO address"
Account/Properties/Templates/Reply. What is the purpose of this
renewed discussion?

-- 

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
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Re: Possible filter bug?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Steve,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:24:03 -0800 GMT (22.01.2000, 01:24 +0800 GMT),
Steve Lamb wrote:

>> This is very important to filter "bcc:".

SL> How?  :)

Some people may have a need for it. Use Presence in "kludges" instead
of recipients. ;-)

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Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
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Re[2]: Ctrl-F4

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Allie & almost all fellow TBUDL members,

Friday, January 21, 2000, 5:56:42 PM, Allie wrote in response to my saying:

>> That bugs must be fixed is a truism. If it's a bug, it must be fixed
>> or squashed, let live, industrialized or released in a field (if a
>> predator, pathogen or parasite of a pest). But it sounds like a design
>> choice though. What do Stef and Max say about it?

AM> It is a design choice but the bug Alex speaks of was definitely
AM> not intended. I was testing TB! once and wrote a note to myself. I
AM> filled in 'allie' in the to field and the auto-completion finished
AM> for me:

AM> "allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"

You are right and I have noticed that. But - if you correct it, the
next time around it will do it the was it was done last. As you say,
it's auto completion, which sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't.
Even then, the autocompleted part stays selected so you can continue
typing and it will try another option. This is my interpretation of
what I see happening.

AM> That should never happen. The auto-completion is for legitimate
AM> addressing.

You mean from the address book? If so, just hit F8 and choose your
address(es).

AM> Now, I have been finding that TB! has some really nice
AM> and novel ideas but they tend to have loopholes that lead to bugs.
AM> This is a loophole in the feature, that needs to be addressed.

It's so full of features that I too would like to see them better
integrated. At least some of the principle developers are quite young,
so the lack of integration is both understandable and correctable. The
important thing to know I think is that these people are willing to
assimilate and be responsive to our concerns, and I have found that
to be true, before subscribing to TBUDL.

AM> The quote prefixing is novel as well and has loopholes in it. The
AM> editor does some neat things automatically but again has loopholes
AM> in these. I've been writing about them but they persist.

I sometimes am VERY unhappy with TB's taking certain keystrokes as
macros and sometimes the autocompletion thing seems to turn on during
composition. I hate that. But I slow to a crawl and get through it.
I'd rather turn it off though.

AM> The quote prefixing is novel as well and has loopholes in it. The
AM> editor does some neat things automatically but again has loopholes
AM> in these. I've been writing about them but they persist.

I especially like the multilingual spell checker because it's
noticeable but not obstructive - it let's you know but let's you work,
rather than second guess you.

The product is certainly good enough to be on the market, and rough
enough to be improved.

I have auto self bcc's on some folders but not the TBUDL folder. I
just typed in the first 2 letters of an email address to another
account and TB finished it for me. It never (or very rarely) fails. I
suppose it depends on the key combination, though.

DH

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Re[2]: Web hyperlinks don't work

[nurmot]

> on Thu, 20 Jan 2000, at 00:07:24 local time (GMT -0800), nurmot wrote:

>> "No Application is associated w/the specified file for this application".

then you wrote:

> try putting this line in prefs.js... worth a try.

Thanks, Rob, for your efforts.  Unfortunately that's not the problem
(although  I did give it a try).   I finally wrote to the Bat Cave and
they answered, explaining that TB! *needs* Internet Exploiter installed
in order to properly launch URL's.  (Yes, I neglected to mention that
i'm using a version of Win95B that was installed w/o *any* IE files.
Strange,but true)

After torturing myself w/ the Agent e-mail program for many months, I
decided to try something else.   In the last 30 days i've tried
Calypso,  TB! and Becky.  All 4 of these programs have things that are
*really* cool and all have things that i'd like to change.  But,
unfortunately, *none* of them will display HTML mail *AND* "launch"
URL's to the default browser.  Agent & Calypso will "launch" URL's
fine and TB! will display HTML mail beautifully (w/o using the IE "rendering
engine" !!).  Becky does neither.

Tonight I stray further afield and try replacing Navigator 4.08 with
Communicator 4.7 so I can see if I can live w/ it's e-mail program.  I can
hear your voices already, as I type this: "You'll be back!".   I know -
I know.

The alternative is to install the Evil Infestation From Redmond.  I
don't think that I can do it.

Tom

  
  Bill Gates talking about Innovation is like
  Bill Clinton talking about celibacy
  ~



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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Jast]

Morning Allie Martin,

> The netiquette rules are global.

 Not   necessarily...   I'm   involved  in  a community where shouting is just
 another  way  of  expressing irony or used for fun, were you greet each other
 with  "BITCH"  and  the  likes and a song consisting only of cusswords is the
 typical  creative  output... These aren't bad, unfriendly or stupid people to
 be with, they just behave differently (and weird :) among themselves.

 Not  every (net) community has the same standards and rules, and in some good
 message  trimming  and  formatting might not be so important. But it is here,
 and  I'd  prefer  if  sir tracer would trim his mails a little and put a line
 after the quotes . . . please?


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Re: TB! v 1.39 Installation

[Jast]

Morning Tom Plunket,

> How long did it take you all to get a working installation of TB!?  It
> took me a long time.  That was a lot of work.

 Let's see...
 

 IIRC,  it  took me about an hour or two the very first time, which I think is
 okay  considering  all  I had used before was the ugly CompuServe WinCIM...
 Of course, now it takes me 5 minutes to install it and get some mail

> Plus, I'm sharp and actually know a thing or two about computers (thanks to
> Doug Hinds to point that out), but TB! is already in the super-customizable
> state.
 
 TB  is  quite customizable, but not superly so. From what I hear TBv2 will be
 super-customizable and possibly capable of a total conversion...

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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Jast]

Morning Nick Andriash,

> If it's the originating computer system time that is at fault, changing to
> "Received time", which I presume is the time my Server get's the message,
> will correct the anomaly of having the originating message somewhere other
> than at the beginning of the thread.
 
 Actually,  the  received  time is the time you downloaded the message. But in
 effect  the  sorting  comes  pretty close to the time the server gets them (I
 think because it downloads in just that sequence)

-- 
+--Jast
|on Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
:with The Bat! 1.39



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Re: Possible bug / problem

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo JWorley,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:46:33 -0600 GMT (22.01.2000, 11:46 +0800 GMT),
JWorley wrote:

J>  I have noticed that even though I have set the properties on certain
J>  folders to delete messages after X number of days, the messages are
J>  never deleted unless I go into the folders and manually delete them.
J>   Is this a problem / bug or am I doing something wrong?  I do not
J>   have any of the messages parked.  Thanks.
 
You have to either check "on exit: remove old messages" in
Folder/Properties/General, or purge manually Folder/Purge+Compress or
Folder/Purge All Folders.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: Possible bug / problem

[Allie Martin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:46:33 -0600, JWorley wrote:

>  I have noticed that even though I have set the properties on certain
>  folders to delete messages after X number of days, the messages are
>  never deleted unless I go into the folders and manually delete them. Is
>  this a problem / bug or am I doing something wrong?  I do not  have any
>  of the messages parked.  Thanks.
 
AFAIK, the purges are done only upon exiting TB!.

-- 
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--†-
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 He would have given us stomaches - David Daye ]


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Possible bug / problem

[JWorley]

Hi All,
 I have noticed that even though I have set the properties on certain
 folders to delete messages after X number of days, the messages are
 never deleted unless I go into the folders and manually delete them.
  Is this a problem / bug or am I doing something wrong?  I do not
  have any of the messages parked.  Thanks.
 

__

Best regards,

Jeff Worley
Systems Consultant

 
|  E-Mailed by The Bat! Version 1.39
|  The World's Best E-Mail Client!!!
|  Check it out at http://www.ritlabs.com/the_bat/index.html
|  under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 
|  on an AMD K6-II 380 Mhz
_



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Re: TB! v 1.39 Installation

[Peter Steiner]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:10:19 -0600, Douglas Hinds wrote:

> The file - that was downloaded on Jan 19 from
> http://www.ritlabs.com/ftp/pub/the_bat/the_bat.exe
> is evidently not a compressed file and wants to go into a setup
> routine when I click on it. Do I need to go through that?

It is a self-extracting RAR archive. You can open it with e.g.
WinRAR (www.rarsoft.com) without executing it.

There was a discussion on this list or TBBETA some weeks ago on
compressing utilities, mentioning other freeware and shareware tools
capable of reading RAR format, perhaps you find it in the archive...

Regards

Peter
-- 
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z grachtige n uuf u aab?" - Franz Hohler

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Re: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Peter Steiner]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:49:19 +0100, Rob wrote:

>>  Ah yes, a not so quick search of my archives revealed that the file
>>  in question is the prefs.js file.

> yep ... that one and liprefs.js ; i'd love to have a list of all possible
> entries/values for those files !!

There is (or was) a list somewhere on Netscape's support pages. Try
looking for jsprefs.htm, perhaps on developer.netscape.com? If you
fail to find an actual copy, I have the version from Netscape 4.06
(older than a year) in my archives and could mail it to you off
list (unzipped 370 KB).

Regards

Peter
-- 
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Chrüzimääl düre Chätschabertrog." - Franz Hohler

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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Nick Andriash]

On Friday, January 21, 2000, 8:22:40 AM, Rob wrote:

> oh yeah, and then click the 'creation time' column header so the arrow
> points up (ascending ?) ;-)

Yes, this works for me... keeps the most recent reply in the thread, at
the bottom, so it keeps the conversation in some intelligible order. I
can read the initial message, and all the replies are now listed in
chronological order. Thanks. :o)


Nick

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 4:16:20 PM, Allie wrote:
> Uhm, errr, *light cough*, OK. I didn't consider that at all. *Allie
> hangs his head in shame and embarrassment*  :)

Touche' monsieur pussycat!

> Ok, take a look at this message and tell me what you think. I'll try
> to keep it up for you. :)

It works, for me.  Now how many other people on how many other lists view
it in the same light?  :)

> Aside from that you may disable it from your end so that you no longer
> will be contributing to the mangling, and two, the auto-completion mess
> will stop.

Which I already have.  :)

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Allie Martin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:06:35 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>> It's kind of dogmatic to the point where it's beginning to sound
>> fanatical, especially since the feature may be disabled. But hey,
>> that's just me. 

> Really?  Tell me why people's replies to me still have my name attached to
> an address I hold no control over even though I turned the option off?

Uhm, errr, *light cough*, OK. I didn't consider that at all. *Allie
hangs his head in shame and embarrassment*  :)

Ok, take a look at this message and tell me what you think. I'll try
to keep it up for you. :)

Aside from that you may disable it from your end so that you no longer
will be contributing to the mangling, and two, the auto-completion mess
will stop.

-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
--†-
[ If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing ]


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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 3:49:17 PM, Allie wrote:
> It's kind of dogmatic to the point where it's beginning to sound fanatical,
> especially since the feature may be disabled. But hey, that's just me.
> 

Really?  Tell me why people's replies to me still have my name attached to
an address I hold no control over even though I turned the option off?

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 3:18:05 PM, Douglas wrote:
> These are established conventions then?

Yes.  Do not munge headers.

> But what TB is doing is making use of non-essential but also
> non-confidential user supplied data. The supposition being that it's there
> to be used.

The assumption is that the reply-to has any bearing with the individual in
the FROM field.  This is not always the case and is a bad assumption to make.
First off, mailing lists that set reply to.  Combining the list address with
the user's name is bad for many reasons.

Secondly is the case when an individual set a reply-to to another
individual.  For example, I send you a reply, tell you I'm not the right
person, CC the right person and set the reply-to to that person.  When you
reply-to me it goes to his address with my name.

> In the example given, to my knowledge, Mr. Clinton doesn't provide
> non-essential comment you mentioned in the configuration of his email
> client, and although one of his correspondents may have had reason to add
> such a non-essential comment for reasons of their own; while technically
> feasible, it is unlikely that this was actually done.

You're assuming that reply-to and from have anything to do with each other
in all cases.  They do not.

> Once again, I am dealing with this issue in logical terms, but logic
> requires a point of departure and if an established convention exists
> the contrary, I'd like to know more about it. I fail to see the
> breech of net-etiquette in itself.

Combining the name of an individual with the list address is a breech.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 2:55:06 PM, Tom wrote:
> I finally got it.  Perhaps The Bat! only prepends the name when there
> is no non-email-address name?  Would it be fixed if the Reply-To was
> set to "TBUDL "?  Dunno, but maybe this is what The Bat!
> originally intended to do; put a proper name when the reply to might
> be something different, as could probably be assumed if this were the
> case (delete the caret, needed by mail protocol as we all now know):

> From: Tom Plunket <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Now I may or may not be the receiver of that address, but maybe TB!
> sees the lack of a proper name and for some reason can't live without
> it, so it inserts whatever it wants?

Exactly.  This is a bug that some people call a feature.  That is because
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is not me, you, Alex, Allie or anyone else on the
list.  Associating that address with the name in the FROM field is wrong.  It
causes confusing, it is frowned upon as header munging, etc.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 1:49:45 PM, Douglas wrote:
> While most respond to sender when typing Ctrl+F5, ALL responded to
> sender using Ctrl+F4. Therefore, I would say that all lists are not
> the same and that Marck was correct in recommending the use of Ctrl+F4
> when replying to sender only.

You missed the point.  He was saying that combining the from name with the
reply-to address was good on this list because when you reply you're generally
replying to the individual.  I challenged by pointing out that on other lists
you're generally replying to the individual as well.  We're not talking in the
technical sense, we're talking as in "speaking" to the individual like I am
doing to you right no.

> Would you mind defining munging?

Mangling, destryoing, changing without just technical cause or reason to
something unexpected and damaging.

> If I understand you correctly, I would say that TBs templates rely on
> the "Steve Lamb" in the Steve Lamb  & all fellow" etc or whatever I want it to say. This is a consistent
> approach and consistency is valuable, when shared by the user.

   In the template that is fine.  In the header field it is not.

> Now I see your point - you do that on purpose, as is your choice.

No, I do not do it.  TBUDL sets the reply to back to the list without
setting a name for that reply-to.  TB!, incorrectly, takes the name from the
FROM field and combines it with the address from the REPLY-TO field.  I had no
choice in that matter.

> You want to be asked whether your name should be used when replying to
> you?

No, it should not combine my name with an address not associated with me.

> This is why different ways of doing things exists - different strokes for
> different folks.

Wrong.  There are some things you don't do.  Hey everybody, I want to
drive on the other side of the street.  I can, different strokes for different
folks.  Nevermind that it breaks how the system works!

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re[2]: Ctrl-F4

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Alexander & all fellow TBUDL members,

Friday, January 21, 2000, 4:27:58 PM, Alexander wrote in response to
my saying:

>> Interesting logic. I wonder how many other TUBDL subscribers share
>> that concern. 

When Steve said:

>> SL> That technical requirement doesn't exist in email. I am
>> SL> [EMAIL PROTECTED] That is all that is needed to route mail to
>> SL> me. The name in front is a comment, nothing more. However, having
>> SL> a comment mismatched with an email address causes confusion, may
>> SL> be what people don't want, and is SEVERELY frowned upon.

He said:

AVK> I do. Two reasons:

AVK> 1. It's written in RFC822 and the succeeding ones;-)

These are established conventions then?

AVK> To put it in less technical way, all the data _but_ that inside
AVK> <...> is optional and is generally of a comment nature. Stricktly
AVK> speaking, the data enclosed in "..." quotes is a "string",
AVK> whereas the data in (...) is defined as "comment", but *both*
AVK> types of data can and might be omitted.

Understood.

AVK> In other words, these are not required. These are optional. But
AVK> this does _not_ mean that I can use them like I want. This is a
AVK> matter of netiquette. To USA residents: what about the
AVK> (technically, correct!) address:
AVK> "Bullp*nis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (well, my apologies, but I
AVK> had to make the point!)

But what TB is doing is making use of non-essential but also
non-confidential user supplied data. The supposition being that it's
there to be used. In the example given, to my knowledge, Mr. Clinton
doesn't provide non-essential comment you mentioned in the
configuration of his email client, and although one of his
correspondents may have had reason to add such a non-essential comment
for reasons of their own; while technically feasible, it is unlikely
that this was actually done.


Once again, I am dealing with this issue in logical terms, but logic
requires a point of departure and if an established convention exists
the contrary, I'd like to know more about it. I fail to see the
breech of net-etiquette in itself.

AVK> But well, I'd say, TB does something like that by default;-)

AVK> 2. As Steve has already pointed out, the addresses like
AVK> "Alexander V. Kiselev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> get filled into
AVK> the MRU list, where from TB gets them for autocompletion. This
AVK> *is* a _severe_ bug, regardless of what you think about it. And
AVK> since it is a bug, it *has* to be fixed.

That bugs must be fixed is a truism. If it's a bug, it must be fixed
or squashed, let live, industrialized or released in a field (if a
predator, pathogen or parasite of a pest). But it sounds like a design
choice though. What do Stef and Max say about it?

AVK> Personally, the second reason above is a major one for me.

Well, I can certainly respect that. Rest assured that you can count on
me to provide any moral support needed with regard to this matter.
There is no doubt in my mind that your contributions have been
fundamental in relation to achieving the progress all of us on TBUDL
desire and continue to strive for.

Douglas

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Allie Martin]

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:27:58 +0300, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

[..snip..]

> 2. As Steve has already pointed out, the addresses like 
> "Alexander V. Kiselev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> get filled into the MRU list, where from TB gets them for autocompletion. This 
> *is* a _severe_ bug, regardless of what you think about it. And since it is a 
> bug, it *has* to be fixed.

   This, I am in agreement with especially since I fell victim to it once.
That definitely should be addressed.

As to the netiquette part and associating names with mailing list
addresses? I have no quarrel. It helps me since I don't thread my
messages. I then display the 'to:' column and can see who's writing to
whom. Most of the arguments against this are largely hypothetical and
seems to ignore the greater picture. It's kind of dogmatic to the point
where it's beginning to sound fanatical, especially since the feature may
be disabled. But hey, that's just me. 

-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Allie Martin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:18:05 -0600, Douglas Hinds wrote:

[..snip..]

> That bugs must be fixed is a truism. If it's a bug, it must be fixed
> or squashed, let live, industrialized or released in a field (if a
> predator, pathogen or parasite of a pest). But it sounds like a design
> choice though. What do Stef and Max say about it?

It is a design choice but the bug Alex speaks of was definitely not
intended. I was testing TB! once and wrote a note to myself. I filled in
'allie' in the to field and the auto-completion finished for me:

"allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"

That should never happen. The auto-completion is for legitimate
addressing. Now, I have been finding that TB! has some really nice and
novel ideas but they tend to have loopholes that lead to bugs. This is a
loophole in the feature, that needs to be addressed.

The quote prefixing is novel as well and has loopholes in it. The
editor does some neat things automatically but again has loopholes in
these. I've been writing about them but they persist.

-- 
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Re: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Rob]

Hello all,

on Thu, 20 Jan 2000, at 00:07:24 local time (GMT -0800), nurmot wrote:

> "No Application is associated w/the specified file for this application".

try putting this line in prefs.js and liprefs.js :

user_pref("browser.wfe.ignore_def_check", false);

make sure it's in the right place, in my file it's right above this line :
user_pref("browser.wfe.show_value", 3);

it will force NS to check if it's the default browser when it starts.
if it isn't it will ask if you want to make it your default browser, if it
already is, nothing happens ... worth a try.

-- 
Rob ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1

... This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting.

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Re[3]: Ctrl-F4

[Tom Plunket]

SL>> No. My bone is with TB! doing something it should not be doing,
SL>> period. If I set my reply-to to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't
SL>> want people sending mail to "Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>".

I finally got it.  Perhaps The Bat! only prepends the name when there
is no non-email-address name?  Would it be fixed if the Reply-To was
set to "TBUDL " ?  Dunno, but maybe this is what The Bat!
originally intended to do; put a proper name when the reply to might
be something different, as could probably be assumed if this were the
case (delete the caret, needed by mail protocol as we all now know):

From: Tom Plunket <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Now I may or may not be the receiver of that address, but maybe TB!
sees the lack of a proper name and for some reason can't live without
it, so it inserts whatever it wants?

DH> You are saying then that you are unhappy with that design choice.
DH> I would think that with your skill you could design an email
DH> client to your own ideals. Alternatively, you could discuss this
DH> with the programmers.

Ahh, now we're done saying "learn to deal with it", and have started
saying "if you don't like it, just go write your own."

The reason *I* buy software is not because I *can't* write it, it's
because I *don't want to*.  My business is making video games, not
making email clients and newsreaders and paint packages and 3D
modellers.  I *could* more than likely write a lot of software that I
wanted to use, but I would rather buy it, and get the sanctity of
knowing that any obscure bugs will more likely be found out and fixed
when life isn't depending on them.

*sigh* Sorry list. I'll just start filtering Doug's name from now on,
too many posts simply enrage me.

-tom!

-- 
Hopin' this said *something* useful, [EMAIL PROTECTED] out.

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 21 Jan 00, at 15:49, Douglas Hinds wrote
about "Re[2]: Ctrl-F4":

> SL> That technical requirement doesn't exist in email. I am
> SL> [EMAIL PROTECTED] That is all that is needed to route mail to
> SL> me. The name in front is a comment, nothing more. However, having
> SL> a comment mismatched with an email address causes confusion, may
> SL> be what people don't want, and is SEVERELY frowned upon.
> 
> Interesting logic. I wonder how many other TUBDL subscribers share
> that concern. 

I do. Two reasons:

1. It's written in RFC822 and the succeeding ones;-) To put it in less technical 
way, all the data _but_ that inside <...> is optional and is generally of a 
comment nature. Stricktly speaking, the data enclosed in "..." quotes is a 
"string", whereas the data in (...) is defined as "comment", but *both* types of 
data can and might be omitted. In other words, these are not required. These 
are optional. But this does _not_ mean that I can use them like I want. This is 
a matter of netiquette. To USA residents: what about the (technically, correct!) 
address:
"Bullp*nis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(well, my apologies, but I had to make the point!)

But well, I'd say, TB does something like that by default;-)

2. As Steve has already pointed out, the addresses like 
"Alexander V. Kiselev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
get filled into the MRU list, where from TB gets them for autocompletion. This 
*is* a _severe_ bug, regardless of what you think about it. And since it is a 
bug, it *has* to be fixed.

Personally, the second reason above is a major one for me.

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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  Life is what happens to you while you are making other plans.

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Re[2]: Ctrl-F4

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Steve & all fellow TBUDL members,

Friday, January 21, 2000, 2:16:00 PM, Steve wrote in response to
Marck's saying:

>> What, all lists are the same?

After Steve said:

SL>>> Other lists are different?

I just tried replying with TB to 6 lists related to my work (which is
not computer related, I just use them rather heavily).

While most respond to sender when typing Ctrl+F5, ALL responded to
sender using Ctrl+F4. Therefore, I would say that all lists are not
the same and that Marck was correct in recommending the use of Ctrl+F4
when replying to sender only.

SL> Asside from announce-only lists where there are no replies can you
SL> think of a list where replies aren't made to individuals? :)

A number of participatory lists do in fact work that way, but most are
varied - that is, they can come in either way.



SL> However, you are not the list nor is the list's address yours. The
SL> reply-to of the list satisfies the convention of replies going
SL> back to the list unless otherwise needed. We don't need your name
SL> associated with the list address to have that.

It appeared to me that Marck gave an example which applies to any
sender. The protocols used for TBUDL would have to be taken up with
dutaint, I would think.

>> It gives a far greater human feel to it for me.

SL> Group hug! No really, makes you an easier target for me. *gack*

There is no doubt that no one on this list who posts is immune to
being a target. An interested anecdote that illustrates that: One
someone would get aggressive in one of the places I lived longest (and
like most), it was common to ask if "a ti no te entran?", meaning: Are
you bullet proof? It was an excellent place to live because everyone
was consistently careful to be polite.

>> different "Reply-To" address in their original message then IMHO it
>> is a politeness and courtesy to combine the two headers in exactly
>> the way TB does it.

SL> Uhm, no, it is not.  Why?

SL> 1: It is header munging.  Don't do it.

Would you mind defining munging?

SL> 2: If the person wants their name in the TO: field off a reply-to,
SL> they can configured the reply-to to have their name in it.

SL> 3: Personally, I don't give a crap if my name is in the to field
SL> or not. In fact, on some lists I send mail out as "Grey d'Miyu
SL> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" and get replies to "Grey". Big deal. What
SL> matters is the *BODY* of the message. And in the body of the
SL> message, low and behold, we have an attribution line with the
SL> person's name in it!

If I understand you correctly, I would say that TBs templates rely on
the "Steve Lamb" in the Steve Lamb  "Friday, January 21, 2000, 11:55:25 AM, Marck wrote:"

>> In the case of TBUDL, we have the list configured to direct replies
>> back to the list. This is where the real bone of contention arises.

SL> No. My bone is with TB! doing something it should not be doing,
SL> period. If I set my reply-to to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't
SL> want people sending mail to "Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>".

How are TB replies directed to TBUDL coming in as
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>? Now I see your point - you do that on
purpose, as is your choice. And if I reply to you, it WILL
never-the-less be directed as you say. You are saying then that you
are unhappy with that design choice. I would think that with your
skill you could design an email client to your own ideals.
Alternatively, you could discuss this with the programmers. But I
can't say that in my own case I find this trait to be a negative
factor.

In general, I'd say it was positive for to reasons: One, it's easier
to delete than to type in, and more important in this case, the
response IS being made to Steve Lamb in response to a post Steve Lamb
made, and those subscribing to TBUDL are thus able to take that into
account when deciding whether to open the post or not. Who is writing
to to who and regarding what is definitely a factor to me. There have
been over 4000 TBUDL posts since November - no way I'm going to read
them all.

SL> Why? What happens when it is a communal box with several different
SL> people responding? IE, I may not be the only person in that box,
SL> why should my name be attached to that address unless I asked it
SL> to be?

SL> It should not.

You want to be asked whether your name should be used when replying to
you?

>> It would be ridiculous to leave my friend's name off that envelope
>> just because it is not going to their normal address.

SL> That is not the issue here. Your friend's name is part of the
SL> technical routing of that letter. Who it is do is defined by his
SL> name, especially if that holding address is, say, his parent's
SL> place. Which of the 5 people at that residence at that time will
SL> be getting the letter?

SL> That technical requirement doesn't exist in email. I am
SL> [EMAIL PROTECTED] That is all that is needed to route mail to
SL> me. The name in front is a comment, nothing more. However, having
SL> a comment mismatched with a

Re: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Tom,

On  21 January 2000  at  12:12:38 GMT -0800 (which was 20:12 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

TP> a  doc  type  is  registered,  but  doesn't  show  up there? *
TP> Windows.

Ahem!  There  is  a  language  constraint on this list, Please be more
careful in future.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
| Using The Bat! 1.39 S/N 14F4B4B2
| under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
*---

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Re[4]: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Roel]

 \\\|///
 / ~ _ \
(- O o -)
--oOOo-(_)-oOOo---
Hello Tom,

TP> That's so beautiful it makes me want to cry. Now the problem is
TP> those damned forsaken Windows "hidden types" or whatever... You
TP> know, when a doc type is registered, but doesn't show up there?

you mean ?
- the extension not showing in windows-explorer?
 => view => folder options => view => files & folders thread...

- file-types which have a registered extension but don't show up in
 => view => folder options => file types ?

 use regedit & edit the key in the "editflags" key... (it can be there
 isn't any)

 if you want the buildup & description of the key, mail me off-list...
 it's quite a bit of typing :-)

TP> **ç*î** Windows.

 What do you want to crash today?

 HTH :-)
 
-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roel  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  ** Speelplein Aboe http://surf.to/aboe **

 Prune: A plum that has seen better days.

 Using The Bat! 1.39 on Windows 98 4.10 build  A 
 with a Intel p200-MMX @ 64 MB & 21Gb Hd

 .oooO
 (   )   Oooo.  
--\ ((   )
   \_)) /
 (_/ 

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Re[2]: Ctrl-F4

[Roel]

 \\\|///
 / ~ _ \
(- O o -)
--oOOo-(_)-oOOo---
Hello Steve,

SL> Asside from announce-only lists where there are no replies can you
SL> think of a list where replies aren't made to individuals? :)

if you mean: stripping of any 'to'-info & replacing it with the
list-adress (and thus losing the names...)

 => wdvl-talk...

-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roel  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  ** Speelplein Aboe http://surf.to/aboe **

 Reality seems to be a constant intrusion on my dreams!

 Using The Bat! 1.39 on Windows 98 4.10 build  A 
 with a Intel p200-MMX @ 64 MB & 21Gb Hd

 .oooO
 (   )   Oooo.  
--\ ((   )
   \_)) /
 (_/ 

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Re[2]: Having to kill Dupes

[Tom Plunket]

TF> I tried it again, and: the Dispatcher no longer deletes! I know it
TF> worked in an earlier version, but today it definitely did not.
TF> Furthermore, my killfilter didn't kill this message to
TF> [EMAIL PROTECTED] - it used to.

Works here on my installation, see headers for version.

-tom!

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Re[4]: HELP: no administrator rights anymore

[Christian Weiss]

Hello Roel!

> have you tried all your accounts to log-in to tb! ?
> so there still should be 1 account with admin-rights.

That solved it!
Thanks a lot!!!


-- 
regards,
 -cw-


<===>
Christian Weiss  .  logisch - so macht Internet Sinn.
A-1230  Wien/Vienna.Fon/Fax:  +43-1-886 24 79
E-Mail:  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].ICQ # 4273362
Public Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=SendPGPKey
WWW: http://www.logisch.at  .  http://www.logisch.com
<===>



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Re[2]: TB! v 1.39 Installation

[Tom Plunket]

>> It also seems to me that software should assimilate and be responsive
>> to the needs of its users - not vice versa.

J>  True,  but  it's  hard  for  software  itself to do so. Sure, you can make it
J>  super-customizable,  but that will always mean work for the user to customize
J>  it.

How long did it take you all to get a working installation of TB!?  It
took me a long time.  That was a lot of work.  Plus, I'm sharp and
actually know a thing or two about computers (thanks to Doug Hinds to
point that out), but TB! is already in the super-customizable state.

-tom!

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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Angel]

On Friday, January 21, 2000 at 08:22:40 ,Rob scribbled:

R> oh yeah, and then click the 'creation time' column header so the arrow
R> points up (ascending ?) ;-)
I have mine pointing down, so that the most recent message is displayed first :D That 
way
when I open the thread, all the recent messages are right there "in my face" so to 
speak.
Just a personal preference...not saying it's for everyone...It's just easier for me 
this
way :D

Regards,
~~~Angel ...your RDR

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 on: 1/21/2000 08:22:40*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Angel]

On Friday, January 21, 2000 at 12:33:29 , I scribbled and *need an eraser* :

A> It takes some servers forever to receive things,
Make that "Receive/Deliver"
Sorry 'bout that :D

Regards,
~~~Angel ...your RDR

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 on: 1/21/2000 12:33:29*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Re[3]: TB! v 1.39 Installation

[Tom Plunket]

TP>> I have four words I could say to that, but I won't.

DH> he failed to take my comment to heart and reacted stupidly.
DH> The four words he refers to are obviously offensive ones.

"obviously" to some perhaps.  To me, inappropriate to the list but not
necessarily offensive.  Reacting stupidly?  When someone tells you to
shut your trap because you're totally off base, how do you respond?

>>> Beyond that, anyone wishing to get aggressive with me in relation to any
>>> of my comments is invited to do it off list, where it will be dealt with
>>> swiftly and appropriately.

DH> He won't bother and with that said, the matter will be let lie, and
DH> the swift and appropriate reaction would probably be the delete key.

Good thing you're crossing threads here.  If you go look up who
actually wrote those words, you'll find it's not me.  In fact, I could
tell you exactly who wrote it, but I won't, simply because he has some
good things to say also, and although he and I lock horns often enough
over various things, I respect the guy 'cause he never goes out of his
way to try to cast a bad light on other people, like quoting sections
of other people's posts and attributing them to different people.
IOW, he knows how to make an arguement, and he doesn't get offended
when people express their own offense at something that he wrote.

DH> The guy may know something about computers but he makes far too many
DH> assumptions and his opinions whether on or off target, are worth a lot
DH> less than he seems to think.

Can anyone here tell me how opinions can be deemed, by a third party,
to be off-target?


-tom!

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Re[3]: HELP: no administrator rights anymore

[Roel]

 \\\|///
 / ~ _ \
(- O o -)
--oOOo-(_)-oOOo---
Hello Christian,

CW> As I have no administrator rights any more, I cannot create any
CW> new accounts with THE BAT!

have you tried all your accounts to log-in to tb! ?
i can't disable administrator-rights for all...
so there still should be 1 account with admin-rights.

-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roel  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  ** Speelplein Aboe http://surf.to/aboe **

 Political panjandrums prologize pedantic paronomasia.

 Using The Bat! 1.39 on Windows 98 4.10 build  A 
 with a Intel p200-MMX @ 64 MB & 21Gb Hd

 .oooO
 (   )   Oooo.  
--\ ((   )
   \_)) /
 (_/ 

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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Angel]

On Friday, January 21, 2000 at 07:19:52 ,Thomas scribbled:

TF> Have you tried:
TF> view - sort by - received time
TF> instead?
The only reason I have it sort by creation time is because when I tried it by Received 
time, for
some reason the emails in the thread seem to jump all over the place as to which one 
came
first etc. It takes some servers forever to receive things, which accounts for someone
asking me: "have you gotten this yet?" and I haven't, yet they emailed it hours ago.
AFAICT, the creation time keeps Re:'s in more order, then I don't have to be clicking 
all over
to figure out who wrote what when. :D I've tried every combo possible and this is what
works for me :D


Regards,
~~~Angel ...your RDR

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 on: 1/21/2000 07:19:52*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 11:55:25 AM, Marck wrote:
SL>> Other lists are different?

> What, all lists are the same?

Asside from announce-only lists where there are no replies can you think
of a list where replies aren't made to individuals?  :)

> Not from my POV, however. My name is "Marck D. Pearlstone". When this
> message comes back out of the list, it will request that replies be sent to
> TBUDL rather than [EMAIL PROTECTED] That may not be my *usual*
> address, but it certainly is the address at and from which I am engaging in
> this conversation. I am perfectly happy about this, because I am accustomed
> to the conventions of this list and other lists of which I am a subscriber.

However, you are not the list nor is the list's address yours.  The
reply-to of the list satisfies the convention of replies going back to the
list unless otherwise needed.  We don't need your name associated with the
list address to have that.

> It gives a far greater human feel to it for me.

Group hug!  No really, makes you an easier target for me.  *gack*

It just pisses me off.

> different "Reply-To" address in their original message then IMHO it is a
> politeness and courtesy to combine the two headers in exactly the way TB
> does it.

Uhm, no, it is not.  Why?

1: It is header munging.  Don't do it.

2: If the person wants their name in the TO: field off a reply-to, they
can configured the reply-to to have their name in it.

3: Personally, I don't give a crap if my name is in the to field or not.
In fact, on some lists I send mail out as "Grey d'Miyu
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" and get replies to "Grey".  Big deal.  What matters is
the *BODY* of the message.  And in the body of the message, low and behold, we
have an attribution line with the person's name in it!

"Friday, January 21, 2000, 11:55:25 AM, Marck wrote:"

> In the case of TBUDL, we have the list configured to direct replies
> back to the list. This is where the real bone of contention arises.

No.  My bone is with TB! doing something it should not be doing, period.
If I set my reply-to to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't want people sending
mail to "Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>".  Why?  What happens when it is
a communal box with several different people responding?  IE, I may not be the
only person in that box, why should my name be attached to that address unless
I asked it to be?

It should not.

> It would be ridiculous to leave my friend's name off that envelope just
> because it is not going to their normal address.

That is not the issue here.  Your friend's name is part of the technical
routing of that letter.  Who it is do is defined by his name, especially if
that holding address is, say, his parent's place.  Which of the 5 people at
that residence at that time will be getting the letter?

That technical requirement doesn't exist in email.  I am
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  That is all that is needed to route mail to me.  The
name in front is a comment, nothing more.  However, having a comment
mismatched with an email address causes confusion, may be what people don't
want, and is SEVERELY frowned upon.

> I feel exactly the same about e-mail and nothing you can say will convince
> me that you're right here Steve.

You're wrong.  See above.  When you can prove that there is technical
merit equal to the addressing on snailmail I might consider your arguments as
mildly valid.  Until then, no, wrong, don't do it.

> I agree, that it's soggy technology but, heck it's human. I can understand
> how it works and how it will work and stop it if it's about to do something
> embarrassing.

That is you.  You're familiar with TB! and how it works.  Now have that
interaction with the millions of nonTB! email readers and their reaction to
it.

> I read via the ticker virtual folder. The thread is in my base folder.
> I can't see it. :-(

Tough.

> Why should I want to expend the energy to set that up when it already works
> *exactly* how I want it to. I have more than enough to do. Truly.

Because how you've gotten used to doing it is *WRONG* for quite a few
technical and social reasons.

> Matter of opinion. I think that politeness in list based conversation is a
> plenty good enough reason. (However, I believe that you don't think that a
> *good enough* reason).

No, it is not a good reason.  "Politeness" is not a reason to break
standards.  Breaking standards, by its very nature, is impolite.  How can you
argue to be impolite for politeness' sake?

> I have hand massaged your name into something that now correctly represents
> the fact that the e-mail address in the To: field of the message is not
> yours. Does that make you feel any less aggrieved? No, probably not :-(.
> Well, I tried, all right? 

No, it doesn't.  My name is still associated with an address that does not
get mail to me and only me.  Stop it, NOW.

> ... which is why I have made the habit of only recording From addresses with
> 

Re[3]: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Tom Plunket]

TP>> In this vein, can anyone tell me where the startup sequence for the
TP>> webbrowser is stored so I can have it call IE differently?

WK> in windows explorer: View | folder options | HTML Document

That's so beautiful it makes me want to cry.  Now the problem is those
damned forsaken Windows "hidden types" or whatever...  You know, when
a doc type is registered, but doesn't show up there?  Fucking Windows.


-tom!

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Re[2]: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Tom Plunket]

>>  That seems too configurable and easy to be from a MS product... 

AM> To all those who didn't look for the option assuming that in MS
AM> Windows tradition it would not be there, call a spade a spade will ya?
AM> :)))

Doesn't appear to be there in IE4.


Regarding "the browser should fix the problem 'cause it's a browser
issue," I say, "I just want to edit the launch string.  What if I want
all URL clicks to call another program that isn't my installed
browser?"  This is what I want to be able to do.  This is *not* making
IE deal with IE bugs.  Where's the freakin' command line?

-tom!

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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Allie Martin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:29:47 -0800, Nick Andriash wrote:

> I have my storage options set to zero seeing as I've got cable, and am
> always on-line. However, if you store articles with Xnews, it doesn't
> make sense to have to quickly go on-line to retrieve them... should they
> not be "stored" as the feature suggests?

They *are* stored as the feature says. I have my messages stored and
set to be purged after 7 days. It's just that you have to open the group
to get at the message listing and the group will not open unless you're
connected.

-- 
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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
--†-
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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Allie Martin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:21:53 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> Also who said colors are for news.  Personally I find black on white
> blinding.  I am upset at Windows for tying certain color values together
> which force people to use a dark on light color scheme than a light on
> dark. Configuring editor colors could mean just having comfortable
> colors to work with.

This is what I was referring to.

> BTW, yes, I did modify your text to prove your point.  Will you
> forgive me?  :)

I'll think about it. :)


-- 
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Re: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 21 Jan 00, at 0:03, Januk Aggarwal wrote
about "Re: Web hyperlinks don't work":

> > Although I don't use IE primarily and use Opera 95% of the time ( I
> > more enjoy the shell enhancements such as the quick launch bar and the
> > start menu enhancements) I decided to look at this problem. I was saying
> > that the browser and not TB! should offer the solution. Alex said that
> > there was a config file that could be edited (I didn't commit that one to
> > memory since I care nada for Netscape).

Aha, that was me;-) Believe it or not, I kinda *remembered* some time ago 
how to do the trick (yeah, a key is to be *added*, NOT an existing key 
modified, in prefs.js -- or liprefs, that doesn't matter really). Morethenthat, I 
thought I had this somewhere in my archives... But -- shame on me -- I've 
either lost track of it, or -- more probably -- just trashed the necessary file in 
one of my "housekeeping battles with a nice bottle";-))

Actually, it doesn't really matter for _me_, which window is being used when I 
double-click the link: existing or newly-created;-) So well, my bad... Might be, 
Netscape has this info in the "developers" section? They've got heaps of info 
there;-) 

>  Ah yes, a not so quick search of my archives revealed that the file
>  in question is the prefs.js file.  Of course I have no idea which
>  variable needs to be changed, but at least I have somewhere to start
>  looking.  Thanks for the reminder. :)

Nope, wide shot. A *new* variable needs to be created, but damn me if I 
remember which now;-)


-- 
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(St.Petersburg, Russia)
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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Steve,

On  21 January 2000  at  10:14:07 GMT -0800 (which was 18:14 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

 I really didn't want to get into this. :-(

>> Replies  on  *this*  list  are usually to the individual making the
>> original posting.

SL> Other lists are different?

What, all lists are the same?

>> The TB name munging, although repugnant to some, works perfectly to
>> promote very sensible and legible conversation.

SL> No  it doesn't. The fact that the replies are there does that.
SL> The munging adds nothing but confusion.

Not  from my POV, however. My name is "Marck D. Pearlstone". When this
message  comes  back  out of the list, it will request that replies be
sent  to  TBUDL rather than [EMAIL PROTECTED] That may not be my
*usual*  address,  but it certainly is the address at and from which I
am  engaging  in  this  conversation. I am perfectly happy about this,
because  I  am  accustomed  to  the conventions of this list and other
lists of which I am a subscriber.

When  I  have  a  conversation on a list, I don't implicitly invite an
off-list conversation of any sort but I certainly *do* invite comments
to  be  addressed  to  me personally within the list. TB supports this
happening automatically. I like that. It adds to the community feel of
a  group of individuals, each of whom has something to say and usually
something  to say to another individual within the community. It gives
a far greater human feel to it for me.

When  I want to reply to *anyone* sending me a mail, I am talking to a
person  at an address. That person probably has a real name. If it was
stated at all, the real name will be found in who the message was from
-  the  "From"  header. If it was stated, then it is certain that that
person wishes to be spoken to using that name. If that same person has
requested that I send replies to an address that is *not* their normal
address  by  using  a  different  "Reply-To" address in their original
message  then  IMHO it is a politeness and courtesy to combine the two
headers  in  exactly the way TB does it. In the case of TBUDL, we have
the  list configured to direct replies back to the list. This is where
the real bone of contention arises.

If I receive a land mail from a friend who asks me to write to them at
a holding address, I will do exactly that. I will put my friend's name
on  the  envelope  and follow it with the holding address. It would be
ridiculous to leave my friend's name off that envelope just because it
is not going to their normal address.

I  feel  exactly  the  same  about e-mail and nothing you can say will
convince  me  that  you're  right here Steve. I agree, that it's soggy
technology but, heck it's human. I can understand how it works and how
it  will  work and stop it if it's about to do something embarrassing.
Usually, it doesn't and I'm perfectly happy with exactly what it wants
to do. Sorry you don't like it that way :-( (genuinely). I much prefer
agreeing with you.

>> I  can tell when someone has replied to one of my postings and zoom
>> in on it as a point of interest.

SL> You can do that with threading

I read via the ticker virtual folder. The thread is in my base folder.
I can't see it. :-(

SL> or having a filter search for your MSGID identifier and mark the
SL> message as high, or copy it into another folder.

Why  should I want to expend the energy to set that up when it already
works  *exactly*  how  I  want  it  to. I have more than enough to do.
Truly.

>> IMHO  I  would  recommend  reverting to default behaviour for TBUDL
>> replies  -  unless  you  can come up with a *really* good reason to
>> keep  it  the way it is (beyond the techno-puritanical "don't munge
>> the address" argument).

SL> I recommend not doing it.  "Techno-pritanical", to me, seems
SL> to be used in an offensive manner.

It  may have possibly come over that way. However, what I mean by that
is  "pure-in-the-technical-sense".  Perhaps  it would have been better
said  as  "techno-purists".  It  is my acknowledgement that 1) I would
have  you  to answer to for this particular (and strange) pet point of
view  I  hold  ;-)  and  2)  that  I  recognize  that  I am not on the
technically pure side in this conversation.

SL> First off, don't munge the address without a damned good reason.
SL> This is not a damned good reason.

Matter  of opinion. I think that politeness in list based conversation
is  a  plenty  good  enough reason. (However, I believe that you don't
think that a *good enough* reason).

SL> Secondly, I do *NOT* want my name attached with the email
SL> address for the list. My address is [EMAIL PROTECTED], not
SL> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I  have  hand  massaged  your  name  into something that now correctly
represents  the  fact  that the e-mail address in the To: field of the
message  is not yours. Does that make you feel any less aggrieved? No,
probably not :-(. Well, I tried, all right? 

SL> Thirdly, since

Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Nick Andriash]

On Friday, January 21, 2000, 8:44:59 AM, Allie Martin wrote:

> Yes, but I can't seem to get at these stored messages without first
> going online and opening the group with the connection going. You could
> however disconnect after having opened the group and continue reading
> offline.

I have my storage options set to zero seeing as I've got cable, and am
always on-line. However, if you store articles with Xnews, it doesn't
make sense to have to quickly go on-line to retrieve them... should they
not be "stored" as the feature suggests?

Nick

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Message not intended for posting on TBUDL

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi tracer,

On  21 January 2000  at  00:10:34 GMT +0700 (which was 17:10 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

Marck>> So - this line's a DEAD HORSE folks.

t> Just one question, how many dead horses have been generated so
t> far??? have you ever counted them ???

Just doing so:

 Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:08:57 +0900
 Subject: Dead horse was - Re[2]: ONE CLICK ON TB ICON IN SYSTRAY

 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:01:34 +0900
 Subject: DEAD HORSE! was - Re[3]: Copy to...

The  above  Dead  Horses were slain by Leif while the following are my
own work:
 
 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 02:32:30 +
 Subject: DEAD HORSE INVOKED Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy

 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 00:53:06 +
 Subject: DEAD HORSE (was Re[2]: (No Subject))

 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 02:56:28 +
 Subject: DEAD HORSE (was Re: Delete Confirmations ?)

 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:12:07 +
 Subject: DEAD HORSE AGAIN (was Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:38:36 +
 Subject: DEAD HORSE (was Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:29:12 +
 Subject: Re: Message not intended for posting on TBUDL

Not  all that  many in the scheme of things. You're generally a polite
and  well  behaved bunch. Shucks, I'm proud of you guys. Brings a tear
to the corners  ;-). Keep it up!
 
-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Markus,

On  21 January 2000  at  18:01:39 GMT +0100 (which was 17:01 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

>> off-list reply is Ctrl-F4. It works every time. Get used to it and
>> avoid embarrassing stains - I mean - incidents. ;-)

MG> Careful with your suggestions. This doesn't work when somebody,
MG> such as me, has '%TO=""%TO="TBUDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"' in
MG> his/her reply template.

Hmm.  Thanks for that warning , Markus. Those of you with this problem
please take note.

However,  I  now feel a mini-rant coming on. >:-> It makes very little
sense to me for anyone to do that on this list. What is wrong with the
To:  address  that  is  put  in  there by default? Whether you use the
munged  setting  or not (you now have the switch to change the default
TB behaviour).

Replies  on  *this*  list  are  usually  to  the individual making the
original  posting.  The  TB  name munging, although repugnant to some,
works  perfectly  to promote very sensible and legible conversation. I
can tell when someone has replied to one of my postings and zoom in on
it  as  a  point of interest. But not when the conversational flow has
been  compromised  by  such  a  device  as  used  in  your TBUDL reply
template. :-(

IMHO  I  would  recommend  reverting  to  default  behaviour for TBUDL
replies  -  unless you can come up with a *really* good reason to keep
it  the  way  it  is  (beyond  the techno-puritanical "don't munge the
address" argument).

OTOH,  if  you  want  to keep it the way you've got it, you have every
right.  My  advice  still  stands  for  those  less munge-phobic - use
Ctrl-F4  to  speak  off-list  and standard Reply mechanisms to address
messages  to  posters  within the list. Those of you sympathising with
Markus - sorry I have no solutions :-(

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
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Re: Ctrl-F4

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 10:03:52 AM, Marck wrote:
> Replies on *this* list are usually to the individual making the original
> posting.

Other lists are different?

> The TB name munging, although repugnant to some, works perfectly to promote
> very sensible and legible conversation.

No it doesn't.  The fact that the replies are there does that.  The
munging adds nothing but confusion.

> I can tell when someone has replied to one of my postings and zoom in on it
> as a point of interest.

You can do that with threading or having a filter search for your MSGID
identifier and mark the message as high, or copy it into another folder.

> But not when the conversational flow has been compromised by such a device
> as used in your TBUDL reply template. :-(

Good.  At least someone has a sane approach.

> IMHO I would recommend reverting to default behaviour for TBUDL replies -
> unless you can come up with a *really* good reason to keep it the way it is
> (beyond the techno-puritanical "don't munge the address" argument).

I recommend not doing it.  "Techno-pritanical", to me, seems to be used
in an offensive manner.  First off, don't munge the address without a damned
good reason.  This is not a damned good reason.

Secondly, I do *NOT* want my name attached with the email address for the
list.  My address is [EMAIL PROTECTED], not [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thirdly, since one can add addresses to the address book from the TO field
having someone's name attached with an address that isn't theirs, especially
on mailing lists other than TBUDL causes massive confusion.

There is not a single legitimate argument for it.  It is one of those
things in TB!, along with RE counting, that *NEVER* should have been
implemented, *MUST* be removed and, damned all to hell, some people think is a
really swell idea.  No doubt they want bright pink text on a yellow
background, with blink, as well.  Geez.

-- 
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Re[2]: HELP: no administrator rights anymore

[Christian Weiss]

Hallo Juergen Frisch!

>But what about trying to create a new
>account, which is the old in fact?

As  I  have no administrator rights any more, I cannot create any
new accounts with THE BAT!


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 -cw-


<===>
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Re[2]: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Wolfgang Kynast]

Hi Tom,

TP> In this vein, can anyone tell me where the startup sequence for the
TP> webbrowser is stored so I can have it call IE differently?

in windows explorer: View | folder options | HTML Document

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Wolfgang

Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
in Darmstadt, Germany, on a 500Mhz P3, 128MB SDRAM, SCSI disks

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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 8:30:16 AM, Nick wrote:
> I was thinking more about this Steve, and remembered that Xnews has a
> storage feature. Would not storing of bodies serve the same purpose as
> running Hamster with Xnews? Are they not one in the same, only using
> different Folders basically?

Uhm, partially.  You'd have to download all the messages each time.  I
dunno if XNews can do that (I barely use it as it is).  Off-line reading in
the other packages involves marking messages to be downloaded and then read on
the next pass through the news server.

*shrug*  Mongo have cable.  Mongo always connected.  Mongo no need
off-line news reading.  Mongo not know how it works.  Ungh.

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 20, 2000, 7:51:44 PM, Thomas wrote:
> There was also a discussion about an adiitional flag, "seen" (as
> opposed ot new or read), with which messages could be marked that need
> relpies. I haven't heard whether this will be available in v2, but
> think not.

This is done somewhat in elm and, IIRC, mutt as well where messages are
"old" when left unread between different sessions.  *shrug*

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 12:58:19 AM, tracer wrote:
> To me it seems to be a bug if replying to a msg DOESNT reset the
> incoming msg as read.,..

I don't.  Who says I read it?  Sounds dumb, but it is true in some cases.
For example, reply, "Hi, I'm busy, will get to this later..."

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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 2:56:11 AM, Allie wrote:
> trimmed) is far more than what I have written and if I'm sure that I still
> want to send? Now tell me 

In Gravity (IIRC) there is an option to set a threshold on that warning.
IE, messages under x lines don't get checked on the quote ratio.

>> I never reformat my news

> Well, you should,
> especially if it needs to
> be to make it easier for people
> to read
> it. :)

No why would anyone do that?  ;)

> Well, you should, especially if it needs to be to make it easier for people
> to read it. :)

Oh, that, ok.  :)

 :) You cannot paste as quote and you cannot configure the editors
 color scheme.

>> I donot use colours for news

> That's you. :)

Also who said colors are for news.  Personally I find black on white
blinding.  I am upset at Windows for tying certain color values together which
force people to use a dark on light color scheme than a light on dark.
Configuring editor colors could mean just having comfortable colors to work
with.

> I do. I just gave my opinion, remember? I didn't declare that no-one should use it. 
>I take my message formatting seriously since I strongly feel that
> it's good courtesy to make your reader comfortable.

Now why would you want that?

> I do. I just gave my opinion, remember? I didn't declare that no-one should
> use it. I take my message formatting seriously since I strongly feel that
> it's good courtesy to make your reader comfortable.

Oh, right, that too.  :)

BTW, yes, I did modify your text to prove your point.  Will you forgive
me?  :)

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Re: Possible filter bug?

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 5:14:17 AM, Syafril wrote:
> This is very important to filter "bcc:".

How?  :)

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, January 21, 2000, 7:56:50 AM, Thomas wrote:
> Do I have to configure the ticker somewhere?

No, turn on message list in the view folder (remember, it isn't view
message) window.

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Re[2]: Web hyperlinks don't work

[tracer]

Hello Angel,
On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:49:55 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Friday, January 21, 2000, 9:49:55 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Angel wrote:

Angel> Hello fellow Bataholics!

Angel> I don't know how I configured it
Angel> but I have Netscape 4.7 as my default browser and the clickable URLs in TB! 
work whether
Angel> Netscape is open or closed. It will bring up Netscape if it's closed, and use 
the current
Angel> window if open.
worked on my system as well but if you uninstall netscape it takes so
much stuff with it which it overwrite from MS that you need to apply
bandages to fix it
Angel> Just general info: I use Opera AWA IE... different browsers for different 
"jobs" :D But
Angel> Netscape is my default.


Angel> Regards,
Angel> ~~~Angel ...your RDR

Angel> [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
using FireTalk: 321338

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Re[2]: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[tracer]

Hello Thomas Fernandez,
On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:23:46 +0800 GMT your local time,
which was Friday, January 21, 2000, 9:23:46 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Thomas Fernandez wrote:


Thomas> I jsut tried it by randomly sending 7 messages to myself *and by
Thomas> mistake to the list as well, my apologies to all!, but my
Thomas> ticker is just a ticker. I don't have a virtual folder behind it. :-(
I donot see it either


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
using FireTalk: 321338



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Re[2]: Message not intended for posting on TBUDL

[tracer]

Hello Marck D. Pearlstone,
On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:29:12 + GMT your local time,
which was Friday, January 21, 2000, 9:29:12 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:


Marck> So - this line's a DEAD HORSE folks.
Just one question, how many dead horses have been generated so far???
have you ever counted them ???


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Thomas,

On  21 January 2000  at  23:56:50 GMT +0800 (which was 15:56 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

TF> I tried again and failed. :-(. When I double-click on the ticker,
TF> one message will be shown as View Folder (full screen). With all
TF> headers ("kludges") even though I do not have it enabled. No
TF> message-list style summary. I tried it with both Message Autoview
TF> ON and OFF. No difference.

TF> Do I have to configure the ticker somewhere?

No,  but  you  do  have  to  have View / Message List enabled. It is a
virtual  folder  with its' own configuration memory, so you can toggle
Kludges  off  and  turn  message list on, etc. to configure it to your
taste. Without the message list, it doesn't make much sense.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Allie,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:17:50  -0500 GMT (22.01.2000, 00:17 +0800 GMT),
Allie Martin wrote:

AM> Instead of sending yourself messages and tying up your mail server
AM> among other mishaps, you may generate some unread messages by going
AM> through a few folders, selecting a couple messages, and marking them as
AM> unread.

Stupid me. And I thought unread message are messages that I hadn't
read. Thanks for brining me back to earth. ;-)

AM> Your ticker should come to life now, showing the various messages
AM> in their various folders.

AM> Now double click on any of the messages displayed in the ticker. A
AM> view folder window will popup. Go the View|Message list

Aha! That's it! Works! :-))) (I stopped at "a view folder will pop
up", didn't think of the next step).

AM> and you'll see that this View Folder window is actually a virtual
AM> folder view, listing all messages being displayed by the ticker.

Beautiful.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Allie Martin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:30:16 -0800, Nick Andriash wrote:

>> Wild guess, Hamster is a local news server.  XNews doesn't have true
>> offline reading capabilities so it needs a local news server to do that.

> I was thinking more about this Steve, and remembered that Xnews has a
> storage feature. Would not storing of bodies serve the same purpose as
> running Hamster with Xnews? Are they not one in the same, only using
> different Folders basically?

Yes, but I can't seem to get at these stored messages without first
going online and opening the group with the connection going. You could
however disconnect after having opened the group and continue reading
offline.

-- 
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--†-
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Re: HELP: no administrator rights anymore

[Juergen Frisch]

 Friday, January 21, 2000, 16:08, Christian Weiss wrote:

> I  tried  out  to  configure  account  groups  in order to access
> certain  user  accounts,  but now the network/administration menu
> has  disappeared  and I cannot revert my configuration of THE BAT to
> default (accessing all accounts without having to log in as a
> certain user).

> How can I regain administrator rights?

Hello Christian,

   Hmm - I'm not sure... But what about trying to create a new
   account, which is the old in fact?

-- 

Best regards,

Jürgen

--
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Ctrl-F4 (was: Re: Message not intended for posting on TBUDL)

[Markus Gloede]

Hi,

On Friday, January 21, 2000, 3:29:12 PM, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

> off-list reply is Ctrl-F4. It works every time. Get used to it and
> avoid embarrassing stains - I mean - incidents. ;-)

Careful with your suggestions. This doesn't work when somebody, such
as me, has '%TO=""%TO="TBUDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"' in his/her
reply template.

Regards,

Markus
Using The Bat! 1.39 under Windows NT 4.0 Build
1381 Service Pack 5 

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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Nick Andriash]

On Thursday, January 20, 2000, 8:01:43 AM, Steve Lamb wrote:

> Thursday, January 20, 2000, 7:54:19 AM, Nick wrote:
>> I'm just curious, but what purpose would be served by trying to run
>> Xnews with Hamster? What added functionality would it serve that is not
>> already present in Xnews?

> Wild guess, Hamster is a local news server.  XNews doesn't have true
> offline reading capabilities so it needs a local news server to do that.

I was thinking more about this Steve, and remembered that Xnews has a
storage feature. Would not storing of bodies serve the same purpose as
running Hamster with Xnews? Are they not one in the same, only using
different Folders basically?



Nick

-- 
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Re: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Jast]

Morning Syafril Hermansyah,

> Great, how did you know that, by trial ?

 No.  I  just  read  every single mail here. It was discussed before, this was
 mentioned.


-- 
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|on Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
:with The Bat! 1.39



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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Rob]

Hello all,

on Fri, 21 Jan 2000, at 15:49:59 local time (GMT +0100), Rob wrote:

> view - sort by - creation time

oh yeah, and then click the 'creation time' column header so the arrow
points up (ascending ?) ;-)

-- 
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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Nick Andriash]

On Friday, January 21, 2000, 7:19:52 AM, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

> Have you tried:
> view - sort by - received time
> instead?

Well Thomas, I'm going to give that a try, and see if it alleviates the
problem with having the original message strangely stuck in the middle
of a thread. If it's the originating computer system time that is at
fault, changing to "Received time", which I presume is the time my
Server get's the message, will correct the anomaly of having the
originating message somewhere other than at the beginning of the thread.

Thanks for your help.


Nick

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Marck,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:38:30 + GMT (21.01.2000, 23:38 +0800 GMT),
Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

TF>> I jsut tried it by randomly sending 7 messages to myself *and
TF>> by mistake to the list as well, my apologies to all!, but
TF>> my ticker is just a ticker. I don't have a virtual folder behind
TF>> it. :-(

MDP> If  you  double  click  on the ticker, the virtual folder opens in all
MDP> its' glory. Allie found it.

I tried again and failed. :-(. When I double-click on the ticker, one
message will be shown as View Folder (full screen). With all headers
("kludges") even though I do not have it enabled. No message-list
style summary. I tried it with both Message Autoview ON and OFF. No
difference.

Do I have to configure the ticker somewhere?

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Nick Andriash]

On Friday, January 21, 2000, 6:49:59 AM, Rob wrote:

> on Thu, 20 Jan 2000, at 08:15:32 local time (GMT -0800), Nick wrote:

>> Still, I'll see a thread where the first message is the original, as it
>> should be, then most, but not all, of the replies are listed in
>> descending order with the little + sign next to each one.

> the replies to the original message, that themselves have been replied to,
> also get a + of course ...

Ahhh... Ok, that's the best explanation I've heard and makes sense.
Thanks Rob.

>> Other combinations I've tried will list the replies _without_ the +
>> signs, but then I'll find the original message stuck somewhere in the
>> middle of the thread, which doesn't make sense to me, and at times will
>> make it difficult to follow the thread.

> i've seen that too ; i think it happens when the system time on someone's
> PC is not 'correct' ...

Alright, I'll buy that. If so then, sorting by creation time would bring
that error out, would it not, whereas sorting by received time wouldn't
allow a system time error like that to show up, correct?

> i'm using :
> view - display - all messages
> view - sort by - creation time
> view - view threads by - subject

Yes, that is the way I have mine now, but I might change to "Sort by -
received time". Thanks for your help Rob.



Nick

-- 
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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Allie Martin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:23:46 +0800, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

> I jsut tried it by randomly sending 7 messages to myself *and by
> mistake to the list as well, my apologies to all!, but my
> ticker is just a ticker. I don't have a virtual folder behind it. :-(

:)))

Instead of sending yourself messages and tying up your mail server
among other mishaps, you may generate some unread messages by going
through a few folders, selecting a couple messages, and marking them as
unread. Your ticker should come to life now, showing the various messages
in their various folders. Now double click on any of the messages
displayed in the ticker. A view folder window will popup. Go the
View|Message list and you'll see that this View Folder window is actually
a virtual folder view, listing all messages being displayed by the ticker.


-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
--†-
[ Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. ]


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Re: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Rob]

Hello all,

on Fri, 21 Jan 2000, at 00:03:55 local time (GMT -0800), Januk wrote:

>  Ah yes, a not so quick search of my archives revealed that the file
>  in question is the prefs.js file.

yep ... that one and liprefs.js ; i'd love to have a list of all possible
entries/values for those files !!

a nice one i recently picked up is :

user_pref("mailnews.start_page.enabled", false);

to stop NN from loading the dumb NetCenter welcome message every time you
open news/mail ...

-- 
Rob ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1

... I always try to go the extra mile at work, but my boss always finds me and brings 
me back.

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Re: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Rob]

Hello all,

on Thu, 20 Jan 2000, at 00:07:24 local time (GMT -0800), nurmot wrote:

> Clicking on a URL, or rt. clicking and selecting OPEN THIS LINK, gives
> this error message: "No Application is associated w/ the specified file
> for this application".

sounds like Netscape is not your default browser ...

HTM should be associated with a browser in Windows Explorer (view - options
- filetypes) ...
is there any entry with 'hypertext document' there ?

-- 
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using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Thomas,

On  21 January 2000  at  22:23:46 GMT +0800 (which was 14:23 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

TF> I jsut tried it by randomly sending 7 messages to myself *and
TF> by mistake to the list as well, my apologies to all!, but
TF> my ticker is just a ticker. I don't have a virtual folder behind
TF> it. :-(

If  you  double  click  on the ticker, the virtual folder opens in all
its' glory. Allie found it.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
| Using The Bat! 1.39 S/N 14F4B4B2
| under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
*---

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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Angel]

On Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 09:29:16 ,Nick scribbled:

NA> Is that sort by subject Angel, or view threads by subject? I wonder what
NA> the difference in the two would be?

View / View Threads By / Subject
View / Sort By / Creation Time
These are the two settings I use.

I also have the "Created" bar on the editor set so that the most recent email shows 
first.
For the most part, the emails are in the order showing the *most recent* first 
according to subject,
and both the originating email AND the Re:'s are listed appropriately. I only have to
click once to expand the entire thread.

I don't know what the literal difference is or what the technical explanation would 
be, I
can only  describe it as Sort=match subject line exactly and View= Match like-words in 
subject
line. Anyone know the technical reasons? :D


Regards,
~~~Angel ...your RDR

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 on: 1/20/2000 09:29:16*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Forwardig several messages

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello TBUDL,

and thanks y'all who have sent me off-list messages that my template
is wrong. You have seen my latest msg to Marck: it was my mistake.
Sorry again. (No pop-up window "are you really really sure?" came
up.)

A question comes to mind: When you select multiple messages to
forward, and you choose "Send all messages without opening the
editor", the reply template less the %quotes macro will be used. This
shouldn't happen, should it?

-- 

Ciao,
Thomas  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Generated with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Rob,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:49:59 +0100 GMT (21.01.2000, 22:49 +0800 GMT),
Rob wrote:

R> i'm using :
R> view - display - all messages
R> view - sort by - creation time
R> view - view threads by - subject

R> works fine. only when someone's PC clock is off, his replies will all be at
R> the top (running early) or bottom (running late) of the thread.

Have you tried:
view - sort by - received time
instead?

I don't use threads, but read messages the way they come in. I might
change my habit when TB doesn't show the full subject for each message
but only for the first one in thread; they tend to go too far to the
right.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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HELP: no administrator rights anymore

[Christian Weiss]

Hello TBUDL!

I  tried  out  to  configure  account  groups  in order to access
certain  user  accounts,  but now the network/administration menu
has  disappeared  and I cannot revert my configuration of THE BAT
to  default (accessing all accounts without having to log in as a
certain user).

How can I regain administrator rights?

I'm using the current version 1.39 on a stand-alone WIN95-PC...


-- 
regards to all,
 -cw-


<===>
Christian Weiss  .  logisch - so macht Internet Sinn.
A-1230  Wien/Vienna.Fon/Fax:  +43-1-886 24 79
E-Mail:  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].ICQ # 4273362
Public Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=SendPGPKey
WWW: http://www.logisch.at  .  http://www.logisch.com
<===>



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Re: Web hyperlinks don't work

[Angel]

Hello fellow Bataholics!

I don't know how I configured it
but I have Netscape 4.7 as my default browser and the clickable URLs in TB! work 
whether
Netscape is open or closed. It will bring up Netscape if it's closed, and use the 
current
window if open.

Just general info: I use Opera AWA IE... different browsers for different "jobs" :D But
Netscape is my default.


Regards,
~~~Angel ...your RDR

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 on: 1/21/2000 02:41:40   *
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Re: TB's Threading Peculiarities

[Rob]

Hello all,

on Thu, 20 Jan 2000, at 08:15:32 local time (GMT -0800), Nick wrote:

> Still, I'll see a thread where the first message is the original, as it
> should be, then most, but not all, of the replies are listed in
> descending order with the little + sign next to each one.

the replies to the original message, that themselves have been replied to,
also get a + of course ...

> Other combinations I've tried will list the replies _without_ the +
> signs, but then I'll find the original message stuck somewhere in the
> middle of the thread, which doesn't make sense to me, and at times will
> make it difficult to follow the thread.

i've seen that too ; i think it happens when the system time on someone's
PC is not 'correct' ...


> What combinations of viewing preferences would allow TB to simply list
> the original message as the first message in a thread, followed in
> chronological order by all the replies, and without the little + signs
> necessitating all the extra mouse clicks required to read the thread?
> What have others found that works for them?

i'm using :
view - display - all messages
view - sort by - creation time
view - view threads by - subject

works fine. only when someone's PC clock is off, his replies will all be at
the top (running early) or bottom (running late) of the thread.

-- 
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using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1

... Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life.

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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Marck,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:20:14 + GMT (21.01.2000, 22:20 +0800 GMT),
Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

MDP> See  my  reply  to  tracer.  The  ticker  is just a "silly window" (no
MDP> offence Max/Stef) which provides an access point to the actual virtual
MDP> folder  you describe. Why request a feature that already exists? Don't
MDP> let  the  ticker put you off - check out the virtual folder behind it.
MDP> Use it. Enjoy. It is a true wonder. I kid ye not

I jsut tried it by randomly sending 7 messages to myself *and by
mistake to the list as well, my apologies to all!, but my
ticker is just a ticker. I don't have a virtual folder behind it. :-(

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Allie Martin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:06:09 +, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

> As  for  the  ticker as a ticker - IMHO it's irrelevant. As would be a
> boxed list of messages. I find it impossible to use it for pinpointing
> a  start place for message reading or, with 100+ messages per sitting,
> as  an overview of what message are there - I merely use it as a route
> to   the   indispensable   virtual  folder  that  is  its'  underlying
> technology.

> My point is that a double-click on it then takes you straight into the
> very  virtual  folder  that  so many people say they want.

Cripes! I didn't realize this since I keep (view message list) for the
'view folder' windows disabled. Thanks much. I'll certainly be using it.

-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
--†-
[ Software Independent: Won't work with ANY software. ]


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Re: Message not intended for posting on TBUDL

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Douglas,

On  21 January 2000  at  07:57:23 GMT -0600 (which was 13:57 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

DH> As  mentioned earlier, the second set of comments made by me under
DH> the heading:

DH> Re[2]: TB! v 1.39 Installation was NOT intended for TBUDL.

[snip]

DH> We all have something valuable to contribute and I do hope that all
DH> can try to understand and learn from the points of view of others (as
DH> the great majority already do), as well as post well or not so well
DH> founded, strong or less strong opinions.

Thank  you for the candour and clarity of these comments Douglas. Well
said,  that  man  :-).  I  endorse  your  call  for the matter of your
inadvertent  posting  to be closed as an on-list topic. To ensure that
your  request is met in the spirit intended allow me to back it with a
DEAD HORSE declaration.

IOW:  No further replies on this topic are necessary, since they would
either  be a "yay for Douglas / me too" (not sanctioned as valid TBUDL
traffic)  or a "boo Douglas / don't agree" (which you have asked to be
sent to you off-list).

So - this line's a DEAD HORSE folks.

The  rest  of you people out there (and you too, Douglas) - try to get
into  the  new habit (or make it a litany of some kind) off-list reply
is Ctrl-F4. It works every time. Get used to it and avoid embarrassing
stains - I mean - incidents. ;-)

Happy Batting, folks.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
| Using The Bat! 1.39 S/N 14F4B4B2
| under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
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Fwd: Re: Possible filter bug?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello TBUDL!



-- 

Ciao,
Thomas  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Generated with The Bat! 1.39
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Fwd: Re: Wish List - "Marked Read" Feature

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello TBUDL!



-- 

Ciao,
Thomas  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Generated with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
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Fwd: Re[3]: TB! v 1.39 Installation

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello TBUDL!



-- 

Ciao,
Thomas  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Generated with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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