Re: [Texascavers] Hondo cave featured on TPR tomorrow, Oct. 15

[Bennett Lee]

For those who missed the on-air broadcast of the Hondo cave, here's a link to 
the online article with audio.

https://www.tpr.org/news/2022-10-16/cavern-discovered-on-a-ranch-in-medina-county

--Bennett


From: Texascavers  On Behalf Of Bennett Lee
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 9:35 AM
To: Sleazeweazel via Texascavers 
Subject: [Texascavers] Hondo cave featured on TPR tomorrow, Oct. 15

If you've been listening to TPR this morning, you might have heard a teaser for 
tomorrow's feature on a new cave that we discovered near Hondo, not far from 
Seco Sinkhole. My Facebook post about it went viral, and it made the front page 
headline for the Devine News newspaper 
(https://devinenews.com/exploring-a-treasure-beneath-the-surface-of-medina-county/).

TPR reporter Jerry Clayton is doing a segment on the discovery during his show 
at 7:30 AM and 9:30 AM. Not sure of the complete content yet, but likely 
includes interviews with me, George Veni, and the landowners, and possibly some 
in-cave audio of Bree Jameson and Greg Mosier during our second trip there to 
continue exploring and mapping.

Listen to the feature on:
KSTX 89.1 FM (NPR/TPR San Antonio station)
Saturday, October 15, 2022
7:30 AM and 9:30 AM

You can stream it at https://www.tpr.org/kstx-89-1-fm-san-antonio or tell your 
smart speaker to play KSTX.

--Bennett
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Re: [Texascavers] Seco Valley Ranch Report

[Crash Kennedy]

Crystal, this would make an excellent article for *The TEXAS CAVER*.

Jim

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:48 PM Crystal GT  wrote:

> Hello!
>
> Please Read the Attached Summary Report on Seco Valley, listen to the
> National Public Radio report, and watch the video made by the owners below.
>
> *Please Watch the video that the Davis Family Made. It is superb!*
>
> *Here : **(*https://youtu.be/Tv0r9-sphVg)
>
> https://youtu.be/Tv0r9-sphVg
>
>
> NPR report on Woot Hole: Here
> 
>
> (
> https://www.tpr.org/news/2022-10-16/cavern-discovered-on-a-ranch-in-medina-county
> )
>
> Thank you to Everyone that has contributed so far to the project and thanks
> for reading,
> v/r
> Crystal Grafft; Bexar Grotto Trip Chair 2022
> crystal.gra...@gmail.com
> 2192993460
>
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Re: [Texascavers] TSA's Fall Business Meeting Sunday 10/16 at 9 a.m. at TCR

[Jessica Gordon]

Update: pre-registration for TCR closes at 7PM tonight.

Jessica 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 13, 2022, at 8:11 AM, Carl Kunath  wrote:
> 
> 
> Registration link closed at 08:00 Thursday!
> 
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 10:09 PM Jessica Gordon  wrote:
>> TSA's Fall Business Meeting will be this Sunday (16 October) at TCR at
>> 9 a.m. in the Dining Hall.
>> 
>> Here is the link to pre-register for TCR (this option closes at midnight on 
>> Thursday):
>> www.cavetexas.org/tcr2022?fbclid=IwAR046aDQn1Y2OeyHtGgjV8i1Cqn_9O2vVXHugcXFT_vck0AKJZgJoOhcAo8
>> 
>> Hope to see you at TCR!
>> 
>> Jessica
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jessica Gordon
>> Chairman, Texas Speleological Association
>> chair...@cavetexas.org
>> www.cavetexas.org  
>> ___
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>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
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Re: [Texascavers] TSA's Fall Business Meeting Sunday 10/16 at 9 a.m. at TCR

[Carl Kunath]

Registration link closed at 08:00 Thursday!

On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 10:09 PM Jessica Gordon  wrote:

> TSA's Fall Business Meeting will be this Sunday (16 October) at TCR at
> 9 a.m. in the Dining Hall.
>
> Here is the link to pre-register for TCR (this option closes at midnight
> on Thursday):
>
> www.cavetexas.org/tcr2022?fbclid=IwAR046aDQn1Y2OeyHtGgjV8i1Cqn_9O2vVXHugcXFT_vck0AKJZgJoOhcAo8
>
> Hope to see you at TCR!
>
> Jessica
>
>
> --
> Jessica Gordon
> Chairman, Texas Speleological Association
> chair...@cavetexas.org
> www.cavetexas.org
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Re: [Texascavers] Thirteen Lives

[Miles Abernathy]

The movie *Thirteen Lives* will be shown online at 7 PM CDT on August 11,
free for AARP members:
https://watch.aarp.org/aarpmfg/play/62e96e18560e2a00618b7b1c

Miles Abernathy

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:17 PM Lee H. Skinner  wrote:

> Yesterday I watched the movie *Thirteen Lives* (2022, 2 hrs. 30 mins.,
> MGM Studios) directed by Ron Howard.   In some ways it is better than *The
> Rescue* (2022) or the PBS NOVA: *Thai Cave Rescue* (2019).  It s also
> very accurate, as one of the British rescue divers was on the set and
> working as the Cave Diving Rescue consultant to Ron Howard to make sure
> everything in the move was authentic and accurate.  While the other two
> films are I listed above very good documentaries, *Thirteen Lives* is
> mostly a reenactment story starting with the 12 boys playing soccer.
> There are many additional things covered here, such as watching a Thai
> soldier drowning when his equipment failed  - hard to watch - and people
> diverting surface water from the sinkholes above the cave.  It is now
> streaming on Amazon Prime Video streaming, and showing in theaters in
> select cities, and showing maybe more widely soon.
>
> Interestingly, there are more films about the Thai rescue on Amazon Prime
> Video.  I have not watched any of them nor know anything about them,
> including another movie reenactment coming out next month:
>
> *Cave Rescue* (2022, 1 hr., 40 mins., Lions Gate, drama, $7/rent,
> DVD/Blu-ray release date 9/13/22)
>
> *13 Lost: The Untold Story of the Thai Cave Rescue* (2020, 53 mins.)
>
> *Into the Darkness* (2020, 46 mins.)
>
> *Operation Thai Cave Rescue*  (2018, 42 mins., Discovery+)
>
>
> Lee Skinner
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report

[Charles Loving]

Way back then. In the days of old when we were young and foolish we were
the cutting edge of cavers. The year was sixty something. Orion Knox was
our leader. We were exploring  and discovering. Susie Holstrom was my
girlfriend and wife to be.  We were mapping, traversing and pushing. I had
mapped Cobb Cavern near Georgetown. That cave was a show cave as Bill Eliot
calls them. Cobb is a subway tunnel like cave and was a tourist cave for a
short while. The owner was a friend and pyramid scheme salesman selling
soap (AMWAY). Anyway Susan and I along with Super Bounce and Faye and Bill
mapped Cobb.Wa thought it would link up with Laubach cave... Inner Space.
We then joined Orion and his team of mappers .   .

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 7:35 PM Marvin and Lisa  wrote:

> Interesting. On my three trips through there I have not noticed any
> airflow and have not thought the water was cold. Further back in the cave,
> after you encounter an in-feeder, it seems colder. We haven’t seen any
> larger fish – or any fish at all – in the main passage. Lots of large
> tadpoles, though.
>
>
>
> Marvin
>
>
>
> *From:* Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] *On
> Behalf Of *grub...@centurytel.net
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2022 6:35 PM
> *To:* texascavers 
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report
>
>
>
> Cascade Sink always had a problem with sunfish and bullhead catfish in the
> main passage.  Randy Waters pointed out that to find salamanders one should
> look in the smaller upper passage that takes off to the left a ways back.
> It is "perched" a few feet above the water of the main passage.  When I was
> working with Sam Sweet I went there a number of times searching for
> Eurycea.  Never found them in the main passage.  Did find them in that left
> hand side passage.
>
>
>
> Everyone always remarked on how much colder the water in the entrance way
> was.  The small, low air space passage to goes to the main water passage.
> We attributed that to chilling of the small water body by the passage of
> the constant high wind thru there. It was usually a very low air space and
> quite sporting back in the carbide caplamp and bluejean jacket era
>
>
>
> Grubbsi  .
>
>
> ----------
>
> *From: *"Andrew Gluesenkamp" 
> *To: *"texascavers" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, July 26, 2022 6:11:47 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report
>
>
>
> Those web worms are the predatory larvae of fungus gnats.  No salamanders?
>
>
>
> Andrew. Gluesenkamp, PhD
>
> 700 Billie Brooks Lane
>
> Driftwood, Texas 78619
>
> (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com
>
>
>
> On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 07:52:43 PM CDT, Marvin Miller <
> cave0mil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> (For the first part of this story see the post dated 7/4/22).
>
>
> On Saturday four cavers returned to Cascade Sink to continue the resurvey
> of the cave. John Young rigged the pit and then rapelled. The time was
> approximately 9:30. He announced from the bottom that the young
> rattlesnake was still in attendance. Adam Daw went down, then Gerry
> Geletzke, with Marvin Miller bringing up the rear. At the bottom Marvin
> noticed that the other three had gone on through the low entrance passage
> with their gear on. He decided to take his off there at the bottom of the
> pit as had been his custom on previous trips. He hung his gear on a wall
> projection above the small, muddy ramp poking out of the water at one end,
> and then followed the rest of the team on into the cave.
>
> In about half an hour they were at Station D23, the end point on the
> previous trip. The station was set at the start of a dam of stream cobbles
> and gravel that rose out of the water and held back the pool on the
> upstream side. On the downstream side the passage sloped down into a lower
> pool and turned a corner to the southwest. The pool was small and they were
> soon traversing a narrow bedrock-floored channel. Some small rimstone dams
> from an ancient flowpath were holding only gravel now and then a narrow
> side passage entered. The corroded flowstone showed that it was the ancient
> source of the water. "Lead for skinny person" was noted on the survey
> sketch. More potholes and gravel and a few meters further on, a drop down
> into a small pool. At the far end of the pool the passage changed character
> into a belly crawl on a bedrock slab. This was soon alleviated by a ceiling
> channel. The passage then sloped into another pool followed by another
> bedrock crawl.
>
>
>
> In bedrock slab areas Marvin noticed an interesting phenomena. Single
> web-like strands hanging from the ceiling that he ha

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Scientists discover places on the moon where it's always 'sweater weather'

[Linda Starr]

So we've messed up the Earth so much we can just go to the moon and mess it
up.
Linda

On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 5:26 PM Lee H. Skinner  wrote:

> People could potentially live and work in lunar pits and caves with steady
> temperatures in the 60s:
>
>
> https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/places-on-moon-where-its-always-sweater-weather
>
>
> Lee
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/1e3909b1-c5a8-58d8-c0e9-c21d108ee0dd%40thuntek.net
> 
> .
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report

[Marvin and Lisa]

Interesting. On my three trips through there I have not noticed any airflow and 
have not thought the water was cold. Further back in the cave, after you 
encounter an in-feeder, it seems colder. We haven’t seen any larger fish – or 
any fish at all – in the main passage. Lots of large tadpoles, though.

 

Marvin

 

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
grub...@centurytel.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 6:35 PM
To: texascavers 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report

 

Cascade Sink always had a problem with sunfish and bullhead catfish in the main 
passage.  Randy Waters pointed out that to find salamanders one should look in 
the smaller upper passage that takes off to the left a ways back.  It is 
"perched" a few feet above the water of the main passage.  When I was working 
with Sam Sweet I went there a number of times searching for Eurycea.  Never 
found them in the main passage.  Did find them in that left hand side passage.  

 

Everyone always remarked on how much colder the water in the entrance way was.  
The small, low air space passage to goes to the main water passage.  We 
attributed that to chilling of the small water body by the passage of the 
constant high wind thru there. It was usually a very low air space and quite 
sporting back in the carbide caplamp and bluejean jacket era

 

Grubbsi  .

 

  _  

From: "Andrew Gluesenkamp" mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com> >
To: "texascavers" mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 6:11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report

 

Those web worms are the predatory larvae of fungus gnats.  No salamanders?

 

Andrew. Gluesenkamp, PhD 

700 Billie Brooks Lane

Driftwood, Texas 78619 

(512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com <mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com> 

 

On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 07:52:43 PM CDT, Marvin Miller 
mailto:cave0mil...@gmail.com> > wrote: 

 

(For the first part of this story see the post dated 7/4/22).


On Saturday four cavers returned to Cascade Sink to continue the resurvey of 
the cave. John Young rigged the pit and then rapelled. The time was 
approximately 9:30. He announced from the bottom that the young rattlesnake was 
still in attendance. Adam Daw went down, then Gerry Geletzke, with Marvin 
Miller bringing up the rear. At the bottom Marvin noticed that the other three 
had gone on through the low entrance passage with their gear on. He decided to 
take his off there at the bottom of the pit as had been his custom on previous 
trips. He hung his gear on a wall projection above the small, muddy ramp poking 
out of the water at one end, and then followed the rest of the team on into the 
cave. 

In about half an hour they were at Station D23, the end point on the previous 
trip. The station was set at the start of a dam of stream cobbles and gravel 
that rose out of the water and held back the pool on the upstream side. On the 
downstream side the passage sloped down into a lower pool and turned a corner 
to the southwest. The pool was small and they were soon traversing a narrow 
bedrock-floored channel. Some small rimstone dams from an ancient flowpath were 
holding only gravel now and then a narrow side passage entered. The corroded 
flowstone showed that it was the ancient source of the water. "Lead for skinny 
person" was noted on the survey sketch. More potholes and gravel and a few 
meters further on, a drop down into a small pool. At the far end of the pool 
the passage changed character into a belly crawl on a bedrock slab. This was 
soon alleviated by a ceiling channel. The passage then sloped into another pool 
followed by another bedrock crawl. 

 

In bedrock slab areas Marvin noticed an interesting phenomena. Single web-like 
strands hanging from the ceiling that he had assumed to be spider-made, each 
appeared to be anchored to the ceiling by a small white protuberance. Upon 
closer inspection this white object was seen to actually be a creature that 
resembled a millipede. The creatures were immobile and many, but not all, had 
the strands hanging from their position. Small droplets of condensation or some 
other liquid clung to the strands. It reminded him of the habits of the 
glowworms of Waitomo Caves in New Zealand. Photos were taken and the survey 
resumed.

 

Exploration by John and Adam showed that a passage to the left would loop 
around and connect to the route straight ahead through the belly crawl. The 
choice was made to survey the passage to the left first. A short crawl led to 
an interesting slope of softball sized smooth, white cobbles. The passage then 
became a tall, narrow fissure and headed down-slope to connect with the route 
across the belly crawl in another shallow pool. The fissure continued straight 
ahead along a wall of fantastically eroded shapes. It then got too narrow to 
stay at floor level and had to b

Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report

[Marvin and Lisa]

Thanks, Andy!

 

We have seen salamanders in the cave. I didn’t hear anyone mention seeing any 
on Saturday. Adam Daw was with us so I’m sure he was looking.

 

Marvin

 

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
Andy Gluesenkamp
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 6:12 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report

 

Those web worms are the predatory larvae of fungus gnats.  No salamanders?

 

Andrew. Gluesenkamp, PhD 

700 Billie Brooks Lane

Driftwood, Texas 78619 

(512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com <mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com> 

 

 

On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 07:52:43 PM CDT, Marvin Miller 
mailto:cave0mil...@gmail.com> > wrote: 

 

 

(For the first part of this story see the post dated 7/4/22).

 

On Saturday four cavers returned to Cascade Sink to continue the resurvey of 
the cave. John Young rigged the pit and then rapelled. The time was 
approximately 9:30. He announced from the bottom that the young rattlesnake was 
still in attendance. Adam Daw went down, then Gerry Geletzke, with Marvin 
Miller bringing up the rear. At the bottom Marvin noticed that the other three 
had gone on through the low entrance passage with their gear on. He decided to 
take his off there at the bottom of the pit as had been his custom on previous 
trips. He hung his gear on a wall projection above the small, muddy ramp poking 
out of the water at one end, and then followed the rest of the team on into the 
cave. 

 

In about half an hour they were at Station D23, the end point on the previous 
trip. The station was set at the start of a dam of stream cobbles and gravel 
that rose out of the water and held back the pool on the upstream side. On the 
downstream side the passage sloped down into a lower pool and turned a corner 
to the southwest. The pool was small and they were soon traversing a narrow 
bedrock-floored channel. Some small rimstone dams from an ancient flowpath were 
holding only gravel now and then a narrow side passage entered. The corroded 
flowstone showed that it was the ancient source of the water. "Lead for skinny 
person" was noted on the survey sketch. More potholes and gravel and a few 
meters further on, a drop down into a small pool. At the far end of the pool 
the passage changed character into a belly crawl on a bedrock slab. This was 
soon alleviated by a ceiling channel. The passage then sloped into another pool 
followed by another bedrock crawl. 

 

In bedrock slab areas Marvin noticed an interesting phenomena. Single web-like 
strands hanging from the ceiling that he had assumed to be spider-made, each 
appeared to be anchored to the ceiling by a small white protuberance. Upon 
closer inspection this white object was seen to actually be a creature that 
resembled a millipede. The creatures were immobile and many, but not all, had 
the strands hanging from their position. Small droplets of condensation or some 
other liquid clung to the strands. It reminded him of the habits of the 
glowworms of Waitomo Caves in New Zealand. Photos were taken and the survey 
resumed.

 

Exploration by John and Adam showed that a passage to the left would loop 
around and connect to the route straight ahead through the belly crawl. The 
choice was made to survey the passage to the left first. A short crawl led to 
an interesting slope of softball sized smooth, white cobbles. The passage then 
became a tall, narrow fissure and headed down-slope to connect with the route 
across the belly crawl in another shallow pool. The fissure continued straight 
ahead along a wall of fantastically eroded shapes. It then got too narrow to 
stay at floor level and had to be traversed by chimneying along higher up. 
Around a few corners it became apparent through holes in the floor that the 
fissure was following the trend of a low, wide water passage down below. They 
got to a point where there was a larger hole into the lower passage and the 
fissure was found to end about 10 meters ahead. John had earlier explored about 
30 meters of the water passage ahead and reported clear water, several rimstone 
dams, and not much more than 10 cm of airspace. He got to a point where passage 
was blocked by stalactites. They decided to end the survey at the hole that 
dropped down into the water and went back to finish the two shots to close the 
loop through the bedrock crawl.  

 

After that they headed out, exiting the cave at about 6:00. In the pool at the 
bottom of the entrance, Marvin found the rattlesnake coiled on the mud slope 
immediately under where he had hung his gear. In trying to decide what to do to 
get the snake to move, he noticed a long cedar stick wedged by floodwaters 
between the walls of the pit and just above his head. He removed the stick and 
was able to use it to hook his gear and retrieve it safely.

 

While eating dinner at the Dodging Duck in Boerne they studied the notes and 
the old maps.

Re: [Texascavers] Lost contact address

[Charles Loving]

 1 charlie 99 dc 12.jpg

 2.5 charlie 72 tomorrow.jpg

 3 GUN 6 copy 2.jpg


On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 10:55 PM Katherine Arens 
wrote:

> A caver of the female persuasion offered a couple of years ago to help
> with the formatting/typesetting of william russell's book. Had an email
> meltdown, lost all data on that and my brain is asleep.  If it was you, let
> me know
>
> thanks, and apologies
> katie
> 
> Katherine Arens, ProfessorPhones: Office(512) 232-6363
> ar...@austin.utexas.edu   Dept. Phone:  (512) 471-4123
> Dept. of Germanic Studies FAX (512) 471-4025
> 2505 University Ave, C3300  Bldg.Location:  Burdine 336
> University of Texas at Austin Office:  Burdine 320
> Austin, TX  78712-1802 
>   -. .-
>  _..-'()`-.._
>  ./'. '||\\.(\_/) .//||` .`\.
>   ./'.|'.'\\|..)O O(..|//`.`|.`\.
> ./'..|'.|| |\`` '`" '` ''/| ||.`|..`\.
>   ./'.||'. .  .  .`||.`\.
>  /'|||'.|| {   } ||.`|||`\
> '.|||'.||| {   } |||.`|||.`
> '.||| | |/'   ``\||`` ''||/''   `\| | |||.`
>  |/' \./' `\./\!|\   /|!/\./' `\./ `\|
> V  VV}' `\ /' `{V   VV
>  ``  `V ' ' '
> I would like to acknowledge that we meet on indigenous lands of Turtle
> Island, the ancestral name for what now is called North America.  I would
> also like to acknowledge the Alabama-Coushatta, Caddo,  Carrizo/Comecrudo,
> Coahuiltecan, Comanche, Kickapoo, Lipan Apache, Tonkawa and Ysleta Del
> Sur Pueblo, and all the American Indian and Indigenous Peoples and
> communities who have been or have become a part of these lands and
> territories in Texas.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 
Charlie Loving
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Re: [Texascavers] July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch

[Bill Steele]

I printed the pdf, read it cover to cover, learned some things about the 
beginning of caving in Mexico, and bought a printed copy. Not one to miss. 

Thanks Bill Elliott and Linda Mitchell for bringing it to us. 

Bill Steele 

> On Jul 14, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Reddell, James R 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I have read the book and found it very well written and a fascinating account 
> of
> pioneering caving techniques and adventures. Wonderful historic photos by 
> Mitchell.
> Bill has done a superb job of editing and laying it out. Well worth the money!
> 
> James
> From: Texascavers  on behalf of William 
> R. Elliott 
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 11:13 AM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
> Subject: [Texascavers] July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch
>  
> July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch
>  
> The new book, Caving with Mitch, by Francis E. Abernethy, is available as a 
> free pdf to download at https://cavelife.info/cuevashistoricas/ 
> 
> Caving with Mitch is the true and humorous adventure story of three great 
> friends, Francis E. Abernethy (“Ab”), Robert W. Mitchell (“Mitch” or “Bob”), 
> and William L. Rhodes (“Dusty”). They were active at the beginning of 
> American caving in Mexico.
>  
> A printed book can be ordered from Linda Mitchell at 
> lindaglassmitch...@gmail.com. Please copy me at speodes...@gmail.com.
>  
> Payment by Venmo or PayPal is preferred to Linda’s email. Include your full 
> name, street address, email, and phone with your email order.
>  
> We have decided that checks are acceptable, made out to Linda Mitchell, at 
> 1707 Antler Dr, Austin, TX 78741. There will be no cash sales.
>  
> You must pay first to get a book. Send the payment at $20 per book, and we 
> will acknowledge your order. Your purchase includes media mail postage to the 
> 48 contiguous US states.
>  
> Please contact Linda about the additional mailing cost for addresses outside 
> the lower 48 states.
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> William R. (Bill) Elliott
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
> 
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
> 
> speodes...@gmail.com
> 
> 573-291-5093 cell
> 
> ___
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> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
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Re: [Texascavers] July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch

[Geary Schindel]

Thank  you for all the hard work editing the book and thank you for
sharing. I've scanned the pictures which look great and look forward to
reading the book.

Geary

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 11:41 AM Reddell, James R <
jreddell.ca...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:

> I have read the book and found it very well written and a fascinating
> account of
> pioneering caving techniques and adventures. Wonderful historic photos by
> Mitchell.
> Bill has done a superb job of editing and laying it out. Well worth the
> money!
>
> James
> --
> *From:* Texascavers  on behalf of
> William R. Elliott 
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2022 11:13 AM
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com 
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch
>
>
> *July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch*
>
>
>
> The new book, *Caving with Mitch**, *by *Francis E. Abernethy*, is
> available as a *free pdf* to download at
> *https://cavelife.info/cuevashistoricas*/
> 
>
>
>
> *Caving with Mitch* is the true and humorous adventure story of three
> great friends, Francis E. Abernethy (“Ab”), Robert W. Mitchell (“Mitch” or
> “Bob”), and William L. Rhodes (“Dusty”). They were active at the beginning
> of American caving in Mexico.
>
>
>
> A printed book can be ordered from Linda Mitchell at
> lindaglassmitch...@gmail.com. Please copy me at speodes...@gmail.com.
>
>
>
> Payment by Venmo or PayPal is preferred to Linda’s email. Include your
> full name, street address, email, and phone with your email order.
>
>
>
> We have decided that checks are acceptable, made out to *Linda Mitchell*,
> at *1707 Antler Dr, Austin, TX 78741. *There will be no cash sales.
>
>
>
> *You must pay first to get a book. *Send the payment at *$20 per book*,
> and we will acknowledge your order. Your purchase includes media mail
> postage to the 48 contiguous US states.
>
>
>
> Please contact Linda about the additional mailing cost for addresses
> outside the lower 48 states.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> *William R. (Bill) Elliott*
>
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
>
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
>
> *speodes...@gmail.com *
>
> 573-291-5093 cell
> ___
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> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>
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Re: [Texascavers] July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch

[Reddell, James R]

I have read the book and found it very well written and a fascinating account of
pioneering caving techniques and adventures. Wonderful historic photos by 
Mitchell.
Bill has done a superb job of editing and laying it out. Well worth the money!

James

From: Texascavers  on behalf of William R. 
Elliott 
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 11:13 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: [Texascavers] July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch


July 15 deadline to order book, Caving with Mitch



The new book, Caving with Mitch, by Francis E. Abernethy, is available as a 
free pdf to download at 
https://cavelife.info/cuevashistoricas/


Caving with Mitch is the true and humorous adventure story of three great 
friends, Francis E. Abernethy (“Ab”), Robert W. Mitchell (“Mitch” or “Bob”), 
and William L. Rhodes (“Dusty”). They were active at the beginning of American 
caving in Mexico.



A printed book can be ordered from Linda Mitchell at 
lindaglassmitch...@gmail.com. Please copy 
me at speodes...@gmail.com.



Payment by Venmo or PayPal is preferred to Linda’s email. Include your full 
name, street address, email, and phone with your email order.



We have decided that checks are acceptable, made out to Linda Mitchell, at 1707 
Antler Dr, Austin, TX 78741. There will be no cash sales.



You must pay first to get a book. Send the payment at $20 per book, and we will 
acknowledge your order. Your purchase includes media mail postage to the 48 
contiguous US states.



Please contact Linda about the additional mailing cost for addresses outside 
the lower 48 states.



Sincerely,



William R. (Bill) Elliott

30105 Briarcrest Court

Georgetown, Texas 78628

speodes...@gmail.com

573-291-5093 cell
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Re: [Texascavers] Information on 5 cavers who passed away

[Carol W Russell]

Hi Bill, I remember Tommy well. The Austin Statesman has his obituary
online. He and John Kreidler accompanied Bill as teenagers on that first
exploratory trip to Huautla. They left from my house.

This is not for the caver obituary, but just about Tommy. He was a bit of a
flower child. Once he showed up at our house early Saturday a.m. and I
asked him if he had had breakfast. He said he had already breakfasted on
wisteria blossoms. I think we persuaded him to have bacon and eggs.

Again, not for the caver memorial-- Bill was on one cave trip with him
where a bunch of people at night were sleeping packed into the back if a
pickup, or maybe it was a tent? All of a sudden Tommy began thrashing
around wildly and yelling, Mother! Mother! They're killing me! And crawled
over everyone else to pop out into the open. He was having a nightmare. I
don't know if they made him sleep outside after that.

Maybe the Statesman memorial has more info you can use.

It's good of you to do this.

Carol



On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 12:15 PM William R. Elliott 
wrote:

> Dear Texas Cavers,
>
> I hope you had a nice July 4. I am passing along some information on 5
> cavers who passed away between 2013 and 2022.
>
> I don't have enough information yet to write the usual full caver
> obituaries, which we like to post on *The Hall of Texas and Mexico Cavers*.
> So, I am placing pdfs of preliminary notices and obituaries for them on
> Dropbox at this link:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/axgptsctuckkuv4/AADi3TO5E_4H8lQS0wKtlRPka?dl=0
>
> Here's a list of the departed, and I will follow up later with more
> details on the website.
>
> Chip Carney, March 10, 1942 - August 14, 2013, age 71 (a "lost caver"
> until recently)
> Larry Williams, 1947- August 27, 2021, age 74
> Tommy McGarrigle, January 12, 1950 - August 24, 2021, age 71
> Dwight Deal,18 April 1938 - June 11, 2022, age 84
> Tom Rogers, April 9, 1970 - June 22, 2022, age 52
>
> If you have any tributes or good photos about some of these old friends,
> please send them to me. Thanks.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> *William R. (Bill) Elliott*
>
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
>
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
>
> *speodes...@gmail.com *
>
> 573-291-5093 cell
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report corrected

[William R. Elliott]

Thanks for posting your trip report, Marvin. I think maybe this is the cave
I went to with Vernelle Elliott in summer 1970 to collect salamanders. I
didn't do any sump diving, but I remember climbing out on rope, when I
spotted a large *Scolopendra* centipede on the ledge below the entrance. I
had on gloves, so I reached down and grabbed the critter by the hind end
to collect him, but the head end swung around and started coming up my
sleeve. I was just head above the entrance, and I flung the darn centipede
out into the bushes. I never tried to collect one that way again. The life
of a cave biologist!

*William R. (Bill) Elliott*

30105 Briarcrest Court

Georgetown, Texas 78628

*speodes...@gmail.com *

573-291-5093 cell


On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 9:51 AM Marvin Miller  wrote:

> I made a few corrections to the report. The cave is in Kendall County and
> Gerry's name is spelled with a z.
> Marvin Miller
>
> On Saturday, July 2, seven cavers entered Cascade Sink (not the commercial
> cave) in Kendall County. Three persons – Gerry Geletzke, Marvin Miller, and
> John Young – were a survey team hoping to find a sump in the cave open and
> pushing the resurvey of the cave further. The four others – Adam Daw,
> Crystal Grafft, Tobin Hays, and Mio Kitano – were there to take the
> opportunity to see the cave and ended up pushing further into it than
> anyone has been since probably the 1980’s.
>
>
>
> John rigged the cave with a nice rebelay at the ledge above the free drop.
> A rattlesnake on a ledge above the bottom pool provided some excitement.
> The first sump in the cave is in the low passage that leads from the bottom
> of the pit. It was immediately obvious that the water level was lower than
> had been witnessed before and that this passage would not be a problem. The
> survey team traversed this bit of passage with a nice 10” of airspace and
> popped out into the tall fissure passage that runs straight south and a
> little east for 105 meters to the second sump. This sump had not been
> expected on the first resurvey trip, organized by Jean Krejca on 10/19/19
> and consisting of 3 teams. The plan had been to survey as much of the known
> cave as possible but it was cut short by finding the unexpected sump. On
> Saturday the survey team found it open with about 8” of airspace. The sump
> was about 2 meters long and then the ceiling went back up as the passage
> teed into a tall fissure passage. Surprisingly, on the other side of the
> sump an old steel anchor was found bolted to the floor. The only
> explanation is that early explorers, finding this sump frequently closed,
> installed a line to assist in the short free-dive. As the survey team
> started the survey the other team - let’s call them the push team – caught
> up. It was suggested that they explore to the left – upstream – which was
> plugged almost immediately at stream level with flood-borne debris, but
> which might be traversable higher in the fissure. The old map indicated
> that this was the case. A small stream flowed from the bottom of the debris
> plug and on down the passage to be surveyed. From this point on the passage
> was mostly hand-and-knees crawl in 20 – 30 cm of water. The passage was a
> tall fissure but got too narrow a meter or so above the floor, so walking
> was generally not an option. The passage width at floor level was typically
> 1.0 to 1.5 meters.
>
>
>
> The push team caught up to the survey team again and announced that there
> was at least 30 meters of passage they had explored going the other way.
> The push team passed the survey team and was soon out of earshot. At one
> point the floor in the passage sloped down and water level got to about
> chest deep. This chilled the survey team and they were happy to find just
> past this area a nice island of stream cobbles that spanned the passage and
> provided plenty of space to sit out of the water and eat a late lunch.
> While sitting there they heard the push team returning and soon saw their
> lights. They reported dry, crawly areas of passage, two dry pancake rooms,
> and several options for routes. They did not make it to the large room that
> is reportedly at the end of the known cave. Remarkably, they found leopard
> frogs living, and apparently healthy, this deep into the cave. Several
> places in the water passage, before the start of survey and after, large
> tadpoles had been spotted. After the push team headed out the survey team
> continued until setting station D23 (first station was D1) on a large dam
> of dirt and rock that seemed to be holding back water in the passage. The
> far side of the dam sloped down into water and a low-ceilinged passage.
> John explored ahead for a bit and reported that the passage comes out of
> the water but stays low and the rough nature of the bedrock floor made
> crawling difficult. It was 4:00 p.m. so the team decided to end the survey
> there in order to make their exit time of 6:00 p.m.
>
>
>
> Tobin, of the push 

Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Sink trip report

[Bill Steele]

Excellent trip report, Marvin! 

Bill

> On Jul 4, 2022, at 9:34 AM, Marvin Miller  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Saturday, July 2, seven cavers entered Cascade Sink (not the commercial 
> cave) in Comal County. Three persons – Gerry Geletske, Marvin Miller, and 
> John Young – were a survey team hoping to find a sump in the cave open and 
> pushing the resurvey of the cave further. The four others – Adam Daw, Crystal 
> Grafft, Tobin Hays, and Mio Kitano – were there to take the opportunity to 
> see the cave and ended up pushing further into it than anyone has been since 
> probably the 1980’s.
>  
> John rigged the cave with a nice rebelay at the ledge above the free drop. A 
> rattlesnake on a ledge above the bottom pool provided some excitement. The 
> first sump in the cave is in the low passage that leads from the bottom of 
> the pit. It was immediately obvious that the water level was lower than had 
> been witnessed before and that this passage would not be a problem. The 
> survey team traversed this bit of passage with a nice 10” of airspace and 
> popped out into the tall fissure passage that runs straight south and a 
> little east for 105 meters to the second sump. This sump had not been 
> expected on the first resurvey trip, organized by Jean Krejca on 10/19/19 and 
> consisting of 3 teams. The plan had been to survey as much of the known cave 
> as possible but it was cut short by finding the unexpected sump. On Saturday 
> the survey team found it open with about 8” of airspace. The sump was about 2 
> meters long and then the ceiling went back up as the passage teed into a tall 
> fissure passage. Surprisingly, on the other side of the sump an old steel 
> anchor was found bolted to the floor. The only explanation is that early 
> explorers, finding this sump frequently closed, installed a line to assist in 
> the short free-dive. As the survey team started the survey the other team - 
> let’s call them the push team – caught up. It was suggested that they explore 
> to the left – upstream – which was plugged almost immediately at stream level 
> with flood-borne debris, but which might be traversable higher in the 
> fissure. The old map indicated that this was the case. A small stream flowed 
> from the bottom of the debris plug and on down the passage to be surveyed. 
> From this point on the passage was mostly hand-and-knees crawl in 20 – 30 cm 
> of water. The passage was a tall fissure but got too narrow a meter or so 
> above the floor, so walking was generally not an option. The passage width at 
> floor level was typically 1.0 to 1.5 meters.
>  
> The push team caught up to the survey team again and announced that there was 
> at least 30 meters of passage they had explored going the other way. The push 
> team passed the survey team and was soon out of earshot. At one point the 
> floor in the passage sloped down and water level got to about chest deep. 
> This chilled the survey team and they were happy to find just past this area 
> a nice island of stream cobbles that spanned the passage and provided plenty 
> of space to sit out of the water and eat a late lunch. While sitting there 
> they heard the push team returning and soon saw their lights. They reported 
> dry, crawly areas of passage, two dry pancake rooms, and several options for 
> routes. They did not make it to the large room that is reportedly at the end 
> of the known cave. Remarkably, they found leopard frogs living, and 
> apparently healthy, this deep into the cave. Several places in the water 
> passage, before the start of survey and after, large tadpoles had been 
> spotted. After the push team headed out the survey team continued until 
> setting station D23 (first station was D1) on a large dam of dirt and rock 
> that seemed to be holding back water in the passage. The far side of the dam 
> sloped down into water and a low-ceilinged passage. John explored ahead for a 
> bit and reported that the passage comes out of the water but stays low and 
> the rough nature of the bedrock floor made crawling difficult. It was 4:00 
> p.m. so the team decided to end the survey there in order to make their exit 
> time of 6:00 p.m.
>  
> Tobin, of the push team, had a bit of excitement at the bottom of the 
> entrance pit. She was the last of the team to climb, and as she was getting 
> on rope in the knee-to-waist deep water the rattlesnake decided to join her 
> in the pool. She stayed cool and was able to avoid it and start climbing. The 
> survey team didn’t see the snake at all when they got there and exited 
> without incident.
>  
> 105.5 meters were surveyed. More trips are planned to take advantage of the 
> current dry conditions.
> ___
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Re: [Texascavers] New book, Caving With Mitch

[Mark Minton]

I also did not see any AMCS publications for sale at the NSS Convenbtion.
There isn't anything new, though; as far as I know there hasn't been an
Activities Newsletter since No. 42 (2019). :-(

Mark

On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 10:01 AM Bill Steele 
wrote:

> Hola Bill,
>
> I printed a copy and am reading it.  Wow, in the middle of page 14 Ab
> tells about meeting and being befriended by Bertha Semple. I knew her. In
> the fall of 1971 she and her husband, John, who lived across the road from
> Edward James’ Los Pozos, took me in and I stayed about a month with them.
> She sort of mothered me. I have some stories.
>
> Bill Steele
>
> P.S. I went to the NSS Convention in South Dakota last month. I visited
> every vendor and saw no evidence of AMCS pubs for sale. Maybe I missed
> them.
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 12:12 AM, William R. Elliott 
> wrote:
>
> *New book, Caving with Mitch*
>
>
>
> Announcing the publication of a new book, *Caving with Mitch**, *by *Francis
> E. Abernethy**. *The 80-page book with color covers is available as a *free
> pdf* to download at *https://cavelife.info/cuevashistoricas*/
> 
>
>
>
> *Caving with Mitch* is the true and humorous adventure story of three
> great friends, Francis E. Abernethy (“Ab”), Robert W. Mitchell (“Mitch” or
> “Bob”), and William L. Rhodes (“Dusty”). They were active at the beginning
> of American caving in Mexico. Only Dusty survives today.
>
>
>
> You will read about their famous trip to Sótano de Huitzmolotitla in 1960,
> where they descended the 344 ft. (105 m) pit on a cable winch that they
> engineered. This was before single rope technique was adopted by most
> cavers. Their methods improved as they made more research trips. From 1959
> until 1977 they periodically explored caves, canyons, natural history,
> biology, Mexican culture, and made many friends. They developed a deep love
> for Mexico and Belize.
>
>
>
> They discovered the first species of blind scorpion in Mexico, and many
> other species new to science. They collected blind cavefishes (*Astyanax*),
> which led to important scientific publications.
>
>
>
> They had some hairy experiences. They rode a freight train to Copper
> Canyon, their jeeps chained to a flatbed car, sitting on boxcars and taking
> photos—until they saw a low railroad tunnel coming! Then there was the
> driverless jeep that tried to pass them on the highway!
>
>
>
> I am the editor and publisher of the book, which is the first number of 
> *Cuevas
> Históricas* (Historic Caves) on my website https://cavelife.info/*. *It
> will be followed by other works about caves, especially lost or forgotten
> cave maps and descriptions that have been rescued from oblivion.
>
>
>
> The pdf is free and copyrighted. A run of *50 to 100* *printed books*
> will be for sale from now *until July 15, 2022*, followed by the printing
> and mailout. The books will be perfect bound with glossy covers and a
> spine. I am collaborating in this publishing project with Linda Mitchell,
> Bob’s widow, Sharon Mitchell, Bob’s daughter, and Dusty Rhodes.
>
>
>
> To order one or more printed books, please contact Linda Mitchell at
> lindaglassmitch...@gmail.com and copy me at speodes...@gmail.com. Payment
> will be by Venmo or PayPal to Linda’s email, no checks or cash. Include
> your full name, street address, email, and phone with your email order. You
> will send the payment at $20 per book, and we will acknowledge your order.
> Your purchase includes media mail postage to the 48 contiguous US states.
> You must pay to reserve a book. Please contact Linda about the additional
> mailing cost for addresses outside the lower 48 states.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> *William R. (Bill) Elliott*
>
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
>
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
>
> *speodes...@gmail.com *
>
> 573-291-5093 cell
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] New book, Caving With Mitch

[Bill Steele]

Hola Bill,

I printed a copy and am reading it.  Wow, in the middle of page 14 Ab tells 
about meeting and being befriended by Bertha Semple. I knew her. In the fall of 
1971 she and her husband, John, who lived across the road from Edward James’ 
Los Pozos, took me in and I stayed about a month with them. She sort of 
mothered me. I have some stories. 

Bill Steele 

P.S. I went to the NSS Convention in South Dakota last month. I visited every 
vendor and saw no evidence of AMCS pubs for sale. Maybe I missed them. 



> On Jun 30, 2022, at 12:12 AM, William R. Elliott  wrote:
> 
> 
> New book, Caving with Mitch
>  
> Announcing the publication of a new book, Caving with Mitch, by Francis E. 
> Abernethy. The 80-page book with color covers is available as a free pdf to 
> download at https://cavelife.info/cuevashistoricas/
>  
> Caving with Mitch is the true and humorous adventure story of three great 
> friends, Francis E. Abernethy (“Ab”), Robert W. Mitchell (“Mitch” or “Bob”), 
> and William L. Rhodes (“Dusty”). They were active at the beginning of 
> American caving in Mexico. Only Dusty survives today.
>  
> You will read about their famous trip to Sótano de Huitzmolotitla in 1960, 
> where they descended the 344 ft. (105 m) pit on a cable winch that they 
> engineered. This was before single rope technique was adopted by most cavers. 
> Their methods improved as they made more research trips. From 1959 until 1977 
> they periodically explored caves, canyons, natural history, biology, Mexican 
> culture, and made many friends. They developed a deep love for Mexico and 
> Belize.
>  
> They discovered the first species of blind scorpion in Mexico, and many other 
> species new to science. They collected blind cavefishes (Astyanax), which led 
> to important scientific publications.
>  
> They had some hairy experiences. They rode a freight train to Copper Canyon, 
> their jeeps chained to a flatbed car, sitting on boxcars and taking 
> photos—until they saw a low railroad tunnel coming! Then there was the 
> driverless jeep that tried to pass them on the highway!
>  
> I am the editor and publisher of the book, which is the first number of 
> Cuevas Históricas (Historic Caves) on my website https://cavelife.info/. It 
> will be followed by other works about caves, especially lost or forgotten 
> cave maps and descriptions that have been rescued from oblivion.
>  
> The pdf is free and copyrighted. A run of 50 to 100 printed books will be for 
> sale from now until July 15, 2022, followed by the printing and mailout. The 
> books will be perfect bound with glossy covers and a spine. I am 
> collaborating in this publishing project with Linda Mitchell, Bob’s widow, 
> Sharon Mitchell, Bob’s daughter, and Dusty Rhodes.
>  
> To order one or more printed books, please contact Linda Mitchell at 
> lindaglassmitch...@gmail.com and copy me at speodes...@gmail.com. Payment 
> will be by Venmo or PayPal to Linda’s email, no checks or cash. Include your 
> full name, street address, email, and phone with your email order. You will 
> send the payment at $20 per book, and we will acknowledge your order. Your 
> purchase includes media mail postage to the 48 contiguous US states. You must 
> pay to reserve a book. Please contact Linda about the additional mailing cost 
> for addresses outside the lower 48 states.
>  
> Sincerely,
> William R. (Bill) Elliott
> 
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
> 
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
> 
> speodes...@gmail.com
> 
> 573-291-5093 cell
> 
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
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Re: [Texascavers] Dr. Dwight Deal passed away

[Dwight Deal]

Thank you, Jim and Mimi.  The Texas cavers have surely responded and have given 
me further comfort.  I knew how well Dwight was known and respected -- and how 
looong he has known folks.  His heart was always with them! 

With appreciation,
Mary and Dwight's family





> On 06/25/2022 2:37 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> 
> 
> So very sorry to hear this  He will be greatly missed! I know Jim knew 
> him, and I have heard and read of him since 1973 when I started my caving 
> life in Texas. Our community is once again diminished.
> 
> Our thoughts and prayers go out to Mary and family and friends ❤️
> 
> Jim and Mimi Jasek
> Waco, Tx
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> > > On Jun 25, 2022, at 2:20 PM, William R. Elliott 
>  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > We have more info on Dwight Deal's dates:
> >  
> > Born April 18, 1938
> > Died Saturday, June 11, 2022, 2:00 AM, Parker, CO 
> > 
> > Dwight fell asleep in his chair on Fri. June 10. Mary says that the 
> > coroner fixed the time of death at 2:00 am Sat. June 11. 
> > 
> > Mary Fletcher Deal is at chin...@comcast.net 
> > mailto:chin...@comcast.net
> > 
> > Sincerely,
> > 
> > William R. (Bill) Elliott
> > 
> > 30105 Briarcrest Court
> > 
> > Georgetown, Texas 78628
> > 
> > speodes...@gmail.com mailto:speodes...@gmail.com
> > 
> > 573-291-5093 cell
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 10:15 AM William R. Elliott 
> > mailto:speodes...@gmail.com > wrote:
> > 
> > > > > I have received reports that Dr. Dwight E. 
> > Deal passed away on June 10, 2022, in Parker, Colorado.
> > >  
> > > This is a blow to the caving community. Dwight was a famous 
> > > caver and geologist, well-liked and accomplished in many ways. He was an 
> > > educator with expertise in hydrogeology, geomorphology, and environmental 
> > > science. He was a life member of the NSS (#3592), an NSS Director, a 
> > > Fellow, and a recipient of the Certificate of Merit. He was an NSS 
> > > Luminary speaker in 2012. He and his wife Mary Fletcher Deal were popular 
> > > leaders of educational karst tours in China, Laos, and Vietnam.
> > >  
> > > From Harvey DuChene, his close friend in Colorado: “He died 
> > > peacefully while sitting in his favorite chair Friday afternoon. He had 
> > > partially eaten a roast beef sandwich and drank part of a glass of tea. 
> > > He went to sleep and quietly passed away.  I visited his wife, Mary Deal, 
> > > last Sunday and she filled me in on the details of his passing. She 
> > > stressed that Dwight and she were living as normally as possible and had 
> > > just returned from a couple of months at their cabin in Terlingua. Dwight 
> > > was recovering from a debilitating bout of pneumonia that severely 
> > > stressed his body systems and he was doing physical therapy to help 
> > > regain his strength.”
> > >  
> > > Dwight was about 84, but I do not have his birth date yet. A 
> > > small group of friends (including me) and family are writing an obituary 
> > > for the NSS News. If you have a personal story about Dwight, please share 
> > > it here on TexasCavers, if appropriate. We have many photos, but if you 
> > > have a good one of Dwight and Mary on an Asian tour, please send it to 
> > > me. 
> > > 
> > > If you would like to send a sympathy card, here is the 
> > > address: Mary Deal, 21810 Longs Peak Ln, Parker, CO 80138. I am not sure 
> > > which email she uses right now.
> > > 
> > > Thank you,
> > > 
> > > William R. (Bill) Elliott
> > > 
> > > 30105 Briarcrest Court
> > > 
> > > Georgetown, Texas 78628
> > > 
> > > speodes...@gmail.com mailto:speodes...@gmail.com
> > > 
> > > 573-291-5093 cell
> > > 
> > > > > ___
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> > http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> > http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
> > 
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Re: [Texascavers] Dr. Dwight Deal passed away

[Mimi Jasek]

So very sorry to hear this  He will be greatly missed! I know Jim knew him, 
and I have heard and read of him since 1973 when I started my caving life in 
Texas. Our community is once again diminished.

Our thoughts and prayers go out to Mary and family and friends ❤️

Jim and Mimi Jasek
Waco, Tx

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 25, 2022, at 2:20 PM, William R. Elliott  wrote:
> 
> 
> We have more info on Dwight Deal's dates:
>  
> Born April 18, 1938
> Died Saturday, June 11, 2022, 2:00 AM, Parker, CO 
> 
> Dwight fell asleep in his chair on Fri. June 10. Mary says that the coroner 
> fixed the time of death at 2:00 am Sat. June 11. 
> 
> Mary Fletcher Deal is at chin...@comcast.net
> 
> Sincerely,
> William R. (Bill) Elliott
> 
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
> 
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
> 
> speodes...@gmail.com
> 
> 573-291-5093 cell
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 10:15 AM William R. Elliott  
>> wrote:
>> I have received reports that Dr. Dwight E. Deal passed away on June 10, 
>> 2022, in Parker, Colorado.
>>  
>> This is a blow to the caving community. Dwight was a famous caver and 
>> geologist, well-liked and accomplished in many ways. He was an educator with 
>> expertise in hydrogeology, geomorphology, and environmental science. He was 
>> a life member of the NSS (#3592), an NSS Director, a Fellow, and a recipient 
>> of the Certificate of Merit. He was an NSS Luminary speaker in 2012. He and 
>> his wife Mary Fletcher Deal were popular leaders of educational karst tours 
>> in China, Laos, and Vietnam.
>>  
>> From Harvey DuChene, his close friend in Colorado: “He died peacefully while 
>> sitting in his favorite chair Friday afternoon. He had partially eaten a 
>> roast beef sandwich and drank part of a glass of tea. He went to sleep and 
>> quietly passed away.  I visited his wife, Mary Deal, last Sunday and she 
>> filled me in on the details of his passing. She stressed that Dwight and she 
>> were living as normally as possible and had just returned from a couple of 
>> months at their cabin in Terlingua. Dwight was recovering from a 
>> debilitating bout of pneumonia that severely stressed his body systems and 
>> he was doing physical therapy to help regain his strength.”
>>  
>> Dwight was about 84, but I do not have his birth date yet. A small group of 
>> friends (including me) and family are writing an obituary for the NSS News. 
>> If you have a personal story about Dwight, please share it here on 
>> TexasCavers, if appropriate. We have many photos, but if you have a good one 
>> of Dwight and Mary on an Asian tour, please send it to me. 
>> 
>> If you would like to send a sympathy card, here is the address: Mary Deal, 
>> 21810 Longs Peak Ln, Parker, CO 80138. I am not sure which email she uses 
>> right now.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> William R. (Bill) Elliott
>> 
>> 30105 Briarcrest Court
>> 
>> Georgetown, Texas 78628
>> 
>> speodes...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 573-291-5093 cell
>> 
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Re: [Texascavers] Dr. Dwight Deal passed away

[William R. Elliott]

We have more info on Dwight Deal's dates:



Born April 18, 1938

Died Saturday, June 11, 2022, 2:00 AM, Parker, CO


Dwight fell asleep in his chair on Fri. June 10. Mary says that the coroner
fixed the time of death at 2:00 am Sat. June 11.


Mary Fletcher Deal is at chin...@comcast.net


Sincerely,

*William R. (Bill) Elliott*

30105 Briarcrest Court

Georgetown, Texas 78628

*speodes...@gmail.com *

573-291-5093 cell


On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 10:15 AM William R. Elliott 
wrote:

> I have received reports that Dr. Dwight E. Deal passed away on June 10,
> 2022, in Parker, Colorado.
>
>
>
> This is a blow to the caving community. Dwight was a famous caver and
> geologist, well-liked and accomplished in many ways. He was an educator
> with expertise in hydrogeology, geomorphology, and environmental science.
> He was a life member of the NSS (#3592), an NSS Director, a Fellow, and a
> recipient of the Certificate of Merit. He was an NSS Luminary speaker in
> 2012. He and his wife Mary Fletcher Deal were popular leaders of
> educational karst tours in China, Laos, and Vietnam.
>
>
>
> From Harvey DuChene, his close friend in Colorado: “He died peacefully
> while sitting in his favorite chair Friday afternoon. He had partially
> eaten a roast beef sandwich and drank part of a glass of tea. He went to
> sleep and quietly passed away.  I visited his wife, Mary Deal, last Sunday
> and she filled me in on the details of his passing. She stressed that
> Dwight and she were living as normally as possible and had just returned
> from a couple of months at their cabin in Terlingua. Dwight was recovering
> from a debilitating bout of pneumonia that severely stressed his body
> systems and he was doing physical therapy to help regain his strength.”
>
>
>
> Dwight was about 84, but I do not have his birth date yet. A small group
> of friends (including me) and family are writing an obituary for the *NSS
> News*. If you have a personal story about Dwight, please share it here on
> TexasCavers, if appropriate. We have many photos, but if you have a good
> one of Dwight and Mary on an Asian tour, please send it to me.
>
>
> If you would like to send a sympathy card, here is the address: Mary Deal,
> 21810 Longs Peak Ln, Parker, CO 80138. I am not sure which email she uses
> right now.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> *William R. (Bill) Elliott*
>
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
>
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
>
> *speodes...@gmail.com *
>
> 573-291-5093 cell
>
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Re: [Texascavers] email re Dwight sent too soon

[William R. Elliott]

Mary, I hope I had your address right--

21810 Longs Peak Ln

Parker, CO 80138


Is that correct?


Bill E,




On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 1:44 PM William R. Elliott 
wrote:

> Got it! Thanks.
>
> *William R. (Bill) Elliott*
>
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
>
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
>
> *speodes...@gmail.com *
>
> 573-291-5093 cell
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 1:32 PM Mary Fletcher Deal 
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, guess I was pulling a Dwight and responding way too long to your
>> question, Bill.   However, where I left off
>>
>> ...he said, "My mother wants to know WHEN are we going to get married?"
>> Oh, I could say no to him but his mother?
>>
>> His D.O.B. is 4/18/38.
>>
>> I'll see if I can respond to other questions.
>> Thank you, Bill,
>> Mary
>>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] email re Dwight sent too soon

[William R. Elliott]

Got it! Thanks.

*William R. (Bill) Elliott*

30105 Briarcrest Court

Georgetown, Texas 78628

*speodes...@gmail.com *

573-291-5093 cell


On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 1:32 PM Mary Fletcher Deal 
wrote:

> Sorry, guess I was pulling a Dwight and responding way too long to your
> question, Bill.   However, where I left off
>
> ...he said, "My mother wants to know WHEN are we going to get married?"
> Oh, I could say no to him but his mother?
>
> His D.O.B. is 4/18/38.
>
> I'll see if I can respond to other questions.
> Thank you, Bill,
> Mary
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Aquismon, is in the news

[AC]

It happened a couple of weeks ago. Bottom line, don’t join a cartel. 

Allan

Smart phone, stupid autocorrect

> On Jun 24, 2022, at 5:42 PM, Jon  wrote:
> 
> 
> In the news:
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/7-bodies-dumped-huasteca-mexico-warning-messages-corpses/
> 
> Has anyone else heard about this?
> 
> J
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

[Marvin Miller]

Heather,

That will be published in a year plus? By then I hope we have more to
report. Ask me again sometime before the deadline for submissions.

Marvin

On Tue, Jun 7, 2022, 5:52 AM Heather Tucek  wrote:

> Can we put this in the next Texas Caver?
>
>
>
> On Saturday, 4 June 2022, Marvin Miller  wrote:
>
>> Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit of
>> muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642
>> meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole
>> that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio
>> have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot
>> was 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some
>> drops falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had
>> first seen this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because
>> there is a slot in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next
>> little space 2 meters below but then there is another, tighter
>> constriction. There is no airflow so this is not a high priority lead.
>>
>> We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the
>> entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the
>> passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that
>> makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters
>> along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a
>> small room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a
>> small, horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed
>> and can be seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to
>> me, at least) because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get
>> into it there is actually a little more space than that, and only one spot
>> where you are scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you
>> encounter a cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after
>> that the floor drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens
>> up to the right, and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee
>> pushed this passage and discovered this room. A small trickle of water
>> falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At floor level a duck under the
>> ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of passage, at the end of which
>> was today's objective. At that point the floor trends slightly down and the
>> ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, which is clean-washed from
>> that point. I had tried to cram myself into this lead when Bennett, Greg
>> Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it was a no-go. I couldn't
>> even get far enough to see around the near corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl
>> and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the floor just after it gets
>> tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to get wet, but in the end
>> she committed to it and soon disappeared around the corner. She kept a
>> running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was going to open up
>> to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon there and
>> continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short
>> constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had
>> to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was
>> filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder.
>> Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or
>> rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage,
>> really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave.
>>
>> When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on
>> the other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water
>> crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a
>> 2 meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we
>> had some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on
>> the near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I
>> decided it was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely
>> drilled 4 cm into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The
>> only way to rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on
>> that and suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back.
>> This large chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the
>> remainder of the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight
>> slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then
>> had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come back and attack
>> the lower passage, the slab would first need to be eliminated. We continued
>> pounding on it - with some care to have an escape route - and eventually
>> were able to lever it and chock it 

Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

[Heather Tucek]

Can we put this in the next Texas Caver?



On Saturday, 4 June 2022, Marvin Miller  wrote:

> Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit of
> muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642
> meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole
> that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio
> have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot
> was 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some
> drops falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had
> first seen this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because
> there is a slot in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next
> little space 2 meters below but then there is another, tighter
> constriction. There is no airflow so this is not a high priority lead.
>
> We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the
> entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the
> passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that
> makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters
> along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a
> small room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a
> small, horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed
> and can be seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to
> me, at least) because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get
> into it there is actually a little more space than that, and only one spot
> where you are scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you
> encounter a cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after
> that the floor drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens
> up to the right, and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee
> pushed this passage and discovered this room. A small trickle of water
> falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At floor level a duck under the
> ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of passage, at the end of which
> was today's objective. At that point the floor trends slightly down and the
> ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, which is clean-washed from
> that point. I had tried to cram myself into this lead when Bennett, Greg
> Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it was a no-go. I couldn't
> even get far enough to see around the near corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl
> and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the floor just after it gets
> tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to get wet, but in the end
> she committed to it and soon disappeared around the corner. She kept a
> running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was going to open up
> to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon there and
> continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short
> constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had
> to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was
> filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder.
> Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or
> rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage,
> really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave.
>
> When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on the
> other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water
> crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a
> 2 meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we
> had some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on
> the near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I
> decided it was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely
> drilled 4 cm into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The
> only way to rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on
> that and suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back.
> This large chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the
> remainder of the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight
> slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then
> had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come back and attack
> the lower passage, the slab would first need to be eliminated. We continued
> pounding on it - with some care to have an escape route - and eventually
> were able to lever it and chock it in a more stable situation. What all of
> that ended up doing for us was open up space over the top of the slab to
> crawl across and see what lay beyond. A quick look showed that the passage
> took a sharp right turn and followed the trend of the lower passage. Mio
> ventured in 

Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

[Mark Ross]

A really interesting, descriptive, and well written trip report. Great for us 
temporary shut-ins!

Mark

From: Marvin Miller 
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2022 5:34 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

Good name. We will keep it!

On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 1:29 PM Kurt Menking  wrote:

  Flaco in Spanish is skinny.  Team skinny

  On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 12:06 PM Marvin Miller  wrote:

team flaco? I don't get the reference.

On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 8:15 AM Kurt Menking  wrote:

  Great trip.  Congrats to team flaco.

  On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:14 PM Marvin Miller  wrote:

Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit 
of muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642 
meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole 
that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio have 
slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot was 3 
meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some drops 
falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had first seen 
this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because there is a slot in 
the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next little space 2 meters 
below but then there is another, tighter constriction. There is no airflow so 
this is not a high priority lead.  

We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the 
entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the 
passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that 
makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters 
along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a small 
room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a small, 
horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed and can be 
seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to me, at least) 
because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get into it there is 
actually a little more space than that, and only one spot where you are 
scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you encounter a 
cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after that the floor 
drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens up to the right, 
and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee pushed this passage and 
discovered this room. A small trickle of water falls from a too-small tube in 
one wall. At floor level a duck under the ceiling leads to a short 5-meter 
section of passage, at the end of which was today's objective. At that point 
the floor trends slightly down and the ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of 
the floor, which is clean-washed from that point. I had tried to cram myself 
into this lead when Bennett, Greg Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage 
but it was a no-go. I couldn't even get far enough to see around the near 
corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl and had no problem with it. There is a pool in 
the floor just after it gets tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to 
get wet, but in the end she committed to it and soon disappeared around the 
corner. She kept a running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was 
going to open up to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon 
there and continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short 
constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had to 
stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was filling 
the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder. Her 
assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or rolled out 
of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage, really the only 
airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave. 

When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on 
the other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water 
crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a 2 
meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we had some 
hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on the near end, 
and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I decided it was time to 
employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely drilled 4 cm into the rock 
when my bit got stuck and would not move. The only way to rescue it was to beat 
on the rock some more. I started in on that and suddenly the rock broke across 
its width about half-a-meter back. This large chunk fell to the ground in front 
of the lower passage, and the remainder of the slab started to slide down what 
must have been a slight slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 
10 or 15 cm. We then had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come

Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

[Marvin Miller]

Good name. We will keep it!

On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 1:29 PM Kurt Menking  wrote:

> Flaco in Spanish is skinny.  Team skinny
>
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 12:06 PM Marvin Miller  wrote:
>
>> team flaco? I don't get the reference.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 8:15 AM Kurt Menking  wrote:
>>
>>> Great trip.  Congrats to team flaco.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:14 PM Marvin Miller 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit
 of muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642
 meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole
 that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio
 have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot
 was 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some
 drops falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had
 first seen this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because
 there is a slot in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next
 little space 2 meters below but then there is another, tighter
 constriction. There is no airflow so this is not a high priority lead.

 We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the
 entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the
 passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that
 makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters
 along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a
 small room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a
 small, horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed
 and can be seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to
 me, at least) because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get
 into it there is actually a little more space than that, and only one spot
 where you are scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you
 encounter a cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after
 that the floor drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens
 up to the right, and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee
 pushed this passage and discovered this room. A small trickle of water
 falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At floor level a duck under the
 ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of passage, at the end of which
 was today's objective. At that point the floor trends slightly down and the
 ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, which is clean-washed from
 that point. I had tried to cram myself into this lead when Bennett, Greg
 Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it was a no-go. I couldn't
 even get far enough to see around the near corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl
 and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the floor just after it gets
 tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to get wet, but in the end
 she committed to it and soon disappeared around the corner. She kept a
 running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was going to open up
 to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon there and
 continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short
 constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had
 to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was
 filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder.
 Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or
 rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage,
 really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave.

 When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on
 the other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water
 crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a
 2 meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we
 had some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on
 the near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I
 decided it was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely
 drilled 4 cm into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The
 only way to rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on
 that and suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back.
 This large chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the
 remainder of the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight
 slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then
 had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come back 

Re: [Texascavers] Texascavers: Dinosaur Cave

[Katherine Arens]

time to resurrect William's Golden Crowbar award . . .
k

On 05.06.2022, at 19:25, Lee H. Skinner 
mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> wrote:

Thanks, Marvin. A great report that all cave diggers will love!


Lee Skinner


On 6/5/2022 10:00 AM, 
texascavers-requ...@texascavers.com 
wrote:
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 21:14:11 -0500
From: Marvin Millermailto:cave0mil...@gmail.com>>
To:Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave
Message-ID:
mailto:CAF-yGDz21F4TxP1rh_vidyN3-P7OAw1oHVtCDXEPnY0rOd2L=g...@mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit of
muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642
meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole
that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio
have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot
was 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some
drops falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had
first seen this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because
there is a slot in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next
little space 2 meters below but then there is another, tighter
constriction. There is no airflow so this is not a high priority lead.

We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the
entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the
passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that
makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters
along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a
small room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a
small, horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed
and can be seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to
me, at least) because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get
into it there is actually a little more space than that, and only one spot
where you are scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you
encounter a cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after
that the floor drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens
up to the right, and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee
pushed this passage and discovered this room. A small trickle of water
falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At floor level a duck under the
ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of passage, at the end of which
was today's objective. At that point the floor trends slightly down and the
ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, which is clean-washed from
that point. I had tried to cram myself into this lead when Bennett, Greg
Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it was a no-go. I couldn't
even get far enough to see around the near corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl
and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the floor just after it gets
tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to get wet, but in the end
she committed to it and soon disappeared around the corner. She kept a
running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was going to open up
to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon there and
continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short
constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had
to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was
filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder.
Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or
rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage,
really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave.

When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on the
other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water
crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a
2 meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we
had some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on
the near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I
decided it was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely
drilled 4 cm into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The
only way to rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on
that and suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back.
This large chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the
remainder of the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight
slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then
had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come back and attack
the lower passage, the slab 

Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

[Kurt Menking]

Flaco in Spanish is skinny.  Team skinny

On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 12:06 PM Marvin Miller  wrote:

> team flaco? I don't get the reference.
>
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 8:15 AM Kurt Menking  wrote:
>
>> Great trip.  Congrats to team flaco.
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:14 PM Marvin Miller  wrote:
>>
>>> Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit
>>> of muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642
>>> meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole
>>> that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio
>>> have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot
>>> was 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some
>>> drops falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had
>>> first seen this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because
>>> there is a slot in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next
>>> little space 2 meters below but then there is another, tighter
>>> constriction. There is no airflow so this is not a high priority lead.
>>>
>>> We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the
>>> entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the
>>> passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that
>>> makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters
>>> along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a
>>> small room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a
>>> small, horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed
>>> and can be seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to
>>> me, at least) because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get
>>> into it there is actually a little more space than that, and only one spot
>>> where you are scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you
>>> encounter a cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after
>>> that the floor drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens
>>> up to the right, and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee
>>> pushed this passage and discovered this room. A small trickle of water
>>> falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At floor level a duck under the
>>> ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of passage, at the end of which
>>> was today's objective. At that point the floor trends slightly down and the
>>> ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, which is clean-washed from
>>> that point. I had tried to cram myself into this lead when Bennett, Greg
>>> Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it was a no-go. I couldn't
>>> even get far enough to see around the near corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl
>>> and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the floor just after it gets
>>> tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to get wet, but in the end
>>> she committed to it and soon disappeared around the corner. She kept a
>>> running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was going to open up
>>> to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon there and
>>> continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short
>>> constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had
>>> to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was
>>> filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder.
>>> Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or
>>> rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage,
>>> really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave.
>>>
>>> When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on
>>> the other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water
>>> crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a
>>> 2 meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we
>>> had some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on
>>> the near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I
>>> decided it was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely
>>> drilled 4 cm into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The
>>> only way to rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on
>>> that and suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back.
>>> This large chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the
>>> remainder of the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight
>>> slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then
>>> had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come back and attack
>>> the lower passage, the slab would first need to be eliminated. We continued
>>> pounding on it - with some care to have an escape route - and 

Re: [Texascavers] Texascavers: Dinosaur Cave

[Lee H. Skinner]

Thanks, Marvin. A great report that all cave diggers will love!


Lee Skinner


On 6/5/2022 10:00 AM, texascavers-requ...@texascavers.com wrote:

Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 21:14:11 -0500
From: Marvin Miller
To:Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit of
muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642
meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole
that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio
have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot
was 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some
drops falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had
first seen this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because
there is a slot in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next
little space 2 meters below but then there is another, tighter
constriction. There is no airflow so this is not a high priority lead.

We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the
entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the
passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that
makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters
along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a
small room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a
small, horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed
and can be seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to
me, at least) because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get
into it there is actually a little more space than that, and only one spot
where you are scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you
encounter a cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after
that the floor drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens
up to the right, and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee
pushed this passage and discovered this room. A small trickle of water
falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At floor level a duck under the
ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of passage, at the end of which
was today's objective. At that point the floor trends slightly down and the
ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, which is clean-washed from
that point. I had tried to cram myself into this lead when Bennett, Greg
Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it was a no-go. I couldn't
even get far enough to see around the near corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl
and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the floor just after it gets
tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to get wet, but in the end
she committed to it and soon disappeared around the corner. She kept a
running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was going to open up
to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon there and
continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short
constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had
to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was
filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder.
Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or
rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage,
really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave.

When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on the
other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water
crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a
2 meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we
had some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on
the near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I
decided it was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely
drilled 4 cm into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The
only way to rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on
that and suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back.
This large chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the
remainder of the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight
slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then
had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come back and attack
the lower passage, the slab would first need to be eliminated. We continued
pounding on it - with some care to have an escape route - and eventually
were able to lever it and chock it in a more stable situation. What all of
that ended up doing for us was open up space over the top of the slab to
crawl across and see what lay beyond. A quick look 

Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

[Marvin Miller]

team flaco? I don't get the reference.

On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 8:15 AM Kurt Menking  wrote:

> Great trip.  Congrats to team flaco.
>
> On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:14 PM Marvin Miller  wrote:
>
>> Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit of
>> muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642
>> meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole
>> that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio
>> have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot
>> was 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some
>> drops falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had
>> first seen this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because
>> there is a slot in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next
>> little space 2 meters below but then there is another, tighter
>> constriction. There is no airflow so this is not a high priority lead.
>>
>> We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the
>> entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the
>> passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that
>> makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters
>> along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a
>> small room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a
>> small, horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed
>> and can be seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to
>> me, at least) because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get
>> into it there is actually a little more space than that, and only one spot
>> where you are scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you
>> encounter a cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after
>> that the floor drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens
>> up to the right, and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee
>> pushed this passage and discovered this room. A small trickle of water
>> falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At floor level a duck under the
>> ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of passage, at the end of which
>> was today's objective. At that point the floor trends slightly down and the
>> ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, which is clean-washed from
>> that point. I had tried to cram myself into this lead when Bennett, Greg
>> Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it was a no-go. I couldn't
>> even get far enough to see around the near corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl
>> and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the floor just after it gets
>> tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to get wet, but in the end
>> she committed to it and soon disappeared around the corner. She kept a
>> running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was going to open up
>> to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon there and
>> continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short
>> constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had
>> to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was
>> filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder.
>> Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or
>> rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage,
>> really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave.
>>
>> When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on
>> the other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water
>> crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a
>> 2 meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we
>> had some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on
>> the near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I
>> decided it was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely
>> drilled 4 cm into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The
>> only way to rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on
>> that and suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back.
>> This large chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the
>> remainder of the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight
>> slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then
>> had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come back and attack
>> the lower passage, the slab would first need to be eliminated. We continued
>> pounding on it - with some care to have an escape route - and eventually
>> were able to lever it and chock it in a more stable situation. What all of
>> that ended up doing for us was open up space over the top of the slab to
>> 

Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

[Kurt Menking]

Great trip.  Congrats to team flaco.

On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:14 PM Marvin Miller  wrote:

> Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit of
> muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642
> meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole
> that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio
> have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot
> was 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some
> drops falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had
> first seen this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because
> there is a slot in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next
> little space 2 meters below but then there is another, tighter
> constriction. There is no airflow so this is not a high priority lead.
>
> We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the
> entrance till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the
> passage. This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that
> makes up the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters
> along the breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a
> small room, the floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a
> small, horizontal tube in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed
> and can be seen to extend at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to
> me, at least) because it looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get
> into it there is actually a little more space than that, and only one spot
> where you are scraping floor and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you
> encounter a cross-joint which provides some relief, and immediately after
> that the floor drops down into a fissure and then the passage widens, opens
> up to the right, and drops over a ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee
> pushed this passage and discovered this room. A small trickle of water
> falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At floor level a duck under the
> ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of passage, at the end of which
> was today's objective. At that point the floor trends slightly down and the
> ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, which is clean-washed from
> that point. I had tried to cram myself into this lead when Bennett, Greg
> Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it was a no-go. I couldn't
> even get far enough to see around the near corner. Kelsey is a skinny girl
> and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the floor just after it gets
> tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to get wet, but in the end
> she committed to it and soon disappeared around the corner. She kept a
> running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was going to open up
> to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon there and
> continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another short
> constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She had
> to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was
> filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder.
> Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or
> rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage,
> really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave.
>
> When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on the
> other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water
> crawl below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a
> 2 meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we
> had some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on
> the near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I
> decided it was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely
> drilled 4 cm into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The
> only way to rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on
> that and suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back.
> This large chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the
> remainder of the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight
> slope towards us! Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then
> had a discussion that if a survey team was going to come back and attack
> the lower passage, the slab would first need to be eliminated. We continued
> pounding on it - with some care to have an escape route - and eventually
> were able to lever it and chock it in a more stable situation. What all of
> that ended up doing for us was open up space over the top of the slab to
> crawl across and see what lay beyond. A quick look showed that the passage
> took a sharp right turn and followed the trend of the lower passage. Mio
> ventured in 

Re: [Texascavers] Dinosaur Cave

[Julia Germany]

Great trip report!

Thank you for sharing it.

- from julia's cell

Julia G Germany
c: 281.979.9208
e: ju...@trigrants.com

> On Jun 4, 2022, at 21:14, Marvin Miller  wrote:
> 
> 
> Kelsey Dennis and Mio Kitano joined me today to finish up a little bit of 
> muddy survey and to push leads in Dinosaur Cave. Dinosaur Cave is a 642 
> meter-long cave in Comal County. The survey went about 2 meters down a hole 
> that had been too tight for the previous survey team. Both Kelsey and Mio 
> have slight figures ideal for these kinds of leads. The next survey shot was 
> 3 meters through a muddy trough into a small terminal room with some drops 
> falling from the ceiling. The drops had been a trickle when I had first seen 
> this room last year. The room isn't really terminal because there is a slot 
> in the floor that could be enlarged to get down to the next little space 2 
> meters below but then there is another, tighter constriction. There is no 
> airflow so this is not a high priority lead. 
> 
> We struggled out of these muddy confines and headed back towards the entrance 
> till we stopped at a hole that dropped down in the middle of the passage. 
> This hole leads to a bit of walking passage in the breakdown that makes up 
> the floor and fills the lower part of the main passage. 10 meters along the 
> breakdown passage a small hole in the floor drops down into a small room, the 
> floor of which slopes further down to the opening of a small, horizontal tube 
> in bedrock. The tube is straight and clean-washed and can be seen to extend 
> at least 5 meters. The tube is intimidating (to me, at least) because it 
> looks barely larger than body-sized. Once you get into it there is actually a 
> little more space than that, and only one spot where you are scraping floor 
> and ceiling. At about the 5-meter mark you encounter a cross-joint which 
> provides some relief, and immediately after that the floor drops down into a 
> fissure and then the passage widens, opens up to the right, and drops over a 
> ledge into a small room. Bennett Lee pushed this passage and discovered this 
> room. A small trickle of water falls from a too-small tube in one wall. At 
> floor level a duck under the ceiling leads to a short 5-meter section of 
> passage, at the end of which was today's objective. At that point the floor 
> trends slightly down and the ceiling comes down to within 20 cm of the floor, 
> which is clean-washed from that point. I had tried to cram myself into this 
> lead when Bennett, Greg Mosier, and I surveyed the preceding passage but it 
> was a no-go. I couldn't even get far enough to see around the near corner. 
> Kelsey is a skinny girl and had no problem with it. There is a pool in the 
> floor just after it gets tight so she had to consider whether she wanted to 
> get wet, but in the end she committed to it and soon disappeared around the 
> corner. She kept a running commentary and informed us that just ahead it was 
> going to open up to walking - or at least stoop-walking height. She was soon 
> there and continued, sometimes in several cm of water. There was another 
> short constriction to be passed and then the passage dimensions resumed. She 
> had to stop, probably about 20 to 25 meters along, due to a boulder that was 
> filling the passage. She could see the passage continuing past the boulder. 
> Her assessment was that it could probably be broken up with a sledge or 
> rolled out of the way. There is good airflow coming out of this passage, 
> really the only airflow we have seen anywhere in Dinosaur Cave. 
> 
> When Kelsey came back out, excited by her discovery, we set to work on the 
> other passage that exits here, stacked almost right on top of the water crawl 
> below. The problem with this one was that it was almost filled with a 2 
> meter-long, 1 meter-wide slab of breakdown. It wasn't very thick so we had 
> some hope that we could break it up somehow. We took turns beating on the 
> near end, and some bits broke off easily, but then it got hard. I decided it 
> was time to employ the hammer drill and straws. I had barely drilled 4 cm 
> into the rock when my bit got stuck and would not move. The only way to 
> rescue it was to beat on the rock some more. I started in on that and 
> suddenly the rock broke across its width about half-a-meter back. This large 
> chunk fell to the ground in front of the lower passage, and the remainder of 
> the slab started to slide down what must have been a slight slope towards us! 
> Fortunately, it stopped moving after 10 or 15 cm. We then had a discussion 
> that if a survey team was going to come back and attack the lower passage, 
> the slab would first need to be eliminated. We continued pounding on it - 
> with some care to have an escape route - and eventually were able to lever it 
> and chock it in a more stable situation. What all of that ended up doing for 
> us was open up space over the top of the slab to crawl across and 

Re: [Texascavers] Kenny McGee

[Jocelyn Hooper]

The NSS has Carol and Kenny listed with the same email:
kennymcge...@gmail.com

On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 9:33 AM Sheryl Rieck  wrote:

> Anyone heard anything about Kenny? How he is doing?
>
> Sheryl Rieck
> sheryl.ri...@gmail.com
>
> "You can't always get what you want but if you try sometime, you just
> might find you get what you need" Rolling Stones
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Re: [Texascavers] Speelunker Cave ride to open at Six Flags Over Texas :

[Bill Bentley]

I graduated from high School in 1977 and went to Arlington and stayed 
with my oldest sister and her late husband for that Summer, I worked 
nights at a place called Meritex Plastics on Randoll Mill Rd making A 
framed little hollow bars for integrated circuit chips it was 19.5 
inches long and made from virgin poly vinyl chloride plastic which just 
so happens to have natural anti static properties and made after taxes 
$115.00 a week.


  But I got me a $29.95 Season to Six Flags over Texas, I bet I 
spent 4 out of 5 days there at the park. I knew it backwards and 
forwards, quickest route to anything I knew shortcuts even through 
employee only areas. I got away with it because I have always had the 
ability to fool people into thinking I known what I am doing. I could be 
at entry gate to the shock-wave Roller-coaster which opened that season 
in 4 minutes or so, I knew where best food for money was and to know 
some the regular worker's during the week it wasn't as crowded as 
weekends. Now you may ask why I am telling all of this? For one thing I 
can remember it in great detail and because I would go through the 
"Spelunker's Cave" there to cool down and it was highly air-conditioned. 
To ride 4 to 5 times back to back and that helped you tolerate that 
nasty old East Texas Humidity which I never did like.  I didn't think it 
was like a real cave as I knew it for what it was, but at 17 back then I 
was probably smarter than kids today in knowing al little bit about a 
lot of stuff.


My short term is going which is irritating as hell and do a whole lot of 
repeating or so they say.


I would say something about cannabis  or hemp but you all know and my 
views on that have drastically changed! LOL.


Thanks for evoking a memory of fun times at age 17.

Cavers are the best!

Bill


On 5/13/2022 8:38 PM, Carol W Russell wrote:
This will set back caving, or at least caving as conceived of by the 
general public, about 1,000 years...


On Fri, May 13, 2022, 4:16 AM Jerry  wrote:


  Classic Six Flags Over Texas Ride Returns With Modern Updates


Pirates of Speelunker Cave will be open to the general public
this Saturday


https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/six-flags-over-texas-debuts-new-pirate-cave-ride/2966167/


Jerry Atkinson.
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Re: [Texascavers] Speelunker Cave ride to open at Six Flags Over Texas :

[Carol W Russell]

This will set back caving, or at least caving as conceived of by the
general public, about 1,000 years...

On Fri, May 13, 2022, 4:16 AM Jerry  wrote:

> Classic Six Flags Over Texas Ride Returns With Modern Updates
> Pirates of Speelunker Cave will be open to the general public this Saturday
>
> https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/six-flags-over-texas-debuts-new-pirate-cave-ride/2966167/
>
> Jerry Atkinson.
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Re: [Texascavers] Speelunker Cave ride to open at Six Flags Over Texas :

[Miles Abernathy]

Not exactly the way I remember caving in Mexico...

On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 4:16 AM Jerry  wrote:

> Classic Six Flags Over Texas Ride Returns With Modern Updates
> Pirates of Speelunker Cave will be open to the general public this Saturday
>
> https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/six-flags-over-texas-debuts-new-pirate-cave-ride/2966167/
>
> Jerry Atkinson.
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Bats tell predators to 'buzz off' — literally

[Lee H. Skinner]

Interesting:

https://www.livescience.com/buzzing-bats-deter-predators



Another article on the buzzing bats:


 These bats buzz like wasps and bees. The sound may deter hungry owls:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/bats-buzz-sounds-mimick-wasps-bees-owls


Lee
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Re: [Texascavers] Water Quality Lands help needed by TCMA

[Charles Loving]

I left Austin 25 years ago and that sort of ended my caving career. No, I
live on the Nueches . My place has a five acre lake. Gary Schindle has been
out here looking at our water situation and given us advice. The drought is
not abating and water will soon, if it isn't already a major concern. The
supply is finite and San Antonio guzzles millions of gallons. aagot to keep
the golf courses green.

On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 1:48 PM Jules Jenkins  wrote:

> Cavers, in 1998 the City of Austin held an election to preserve and
> protect water & caves on the Recharge Zone. For many, many years Bill
> Russell and myself (Jules Jenkins) represented TCMA as a major stakeholder
> in identifying and exploring the lands the city bought in ‘98 and in the
> years after 1998.
> Kevin Theseun is and has been the manager of those lands and he was a long
> time SA caver.
> It’s been 7 yrs since the group met. Kevin sent out and email to get the
> committee back together. William passed away and I no longer live in
> Austin. I told Kevin I would reach out to cavers in Austin and all TCMA
> members to try to get a few people involved as the new ‘caver’ guard. It’s
> really important that cavers are represented. It’s also important to
> learned what was done and accomplished. It’s not political per se, it’s
> environmental & involves the planning for use of the lands by the various
> stakeholder groups. Pls contact me if you wanna help have a say in how the
> Recharge Zone lands are used. It really is vital that cavers keep a finger
> in this pie. This zone is where the majority of Austin’s caves are located.
> Email me and I’ll get you in touch with Kevin and I’d be happy to answer
> questions.
> jules1...@gmail.com
>
> Thanks
>
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-- 
Charlie Loving
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Re: [Texascavers] Veryovkina Cave

[Mark Minton]

Indeed, the bottom of Veryovkina is hardly the closest humans have been to
the center of the earth. In addition to deep mines, ocean dives by
bathyspheres, etc. have been to over 6.5 miles down in the Mariana Trench.
That guy didn't do his homework.

Mark Minton

On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 4:24 PM Evatt  wrote:

> Maybe.
>
> “*AngloGold Ashanti's Mponeng gold mine*, located south-west of
> Johannesburg in South Africa, is currently the deepest mine in the world.
> The operating depth at Mponeng mine ranged from between 3.16km to 3.84km
> below the surface by the end of 2018.Jun 11, 2019”
>
> I’ll let you do the latitude comparison...
>
> Jim
> *From:* Lee H. Skinner
> *Sent:* April 27, 2022 12:14 PM
> *To:* SWR >> New Mexico Cavers ; Texas Cavers
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Veryovkina Cave
>
> This article claims that the bottom of Veryovkina Cave is the closest
> point (that humans have been) to the center of the Earth, ignoring
> arguments of entrance altitude and entrance latitude (the Poles are closer
> to the Earth's center than the Equator by fourteen miles).  --Lee
>
> The Veryovkina (or Verëvkina) Cave
> 
>
> the closest point to the center of the Earth.
>
Snip
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Re: [Texascavers] Important carbide lamp collection for sale

[Mark Minton]

My Tecate beer can lamp, as well as Logan's can lamp, are made from steel
cans, which gives some idea of how old they are. Steel cans were pretty
much phased out in favor of aluminum in the 1970s - 1980s, so they're
likely at least 40 -50 years old.

Mark

On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 8:44 PM Mark Minton  wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Thanks for the interesting photos and descriptions of Logan's carbide
> lamps. He has some unusual items in there. The artisan kerosene lamp in
> batch 15 caught my eye. I have a similar lamp made from a Tecate can with
> the same type of bottle-cap wick holder. (Ironic since the can wouldn't
> have had a cap!) Mine doesn't have a reflector. I don't remember where/when
> I got it; probably Valles or Tehuacán in the 70s or 80s. Photo attached.
>
> Mark Minton
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 1:42 PM William R. Elliott 
> wrote:
>
>> *Important carbide lamp collection for sale*
>>
>> The LM Collection of carbide lamps will be for sale starting April 19,
>> 2022. This is the largest collection of carbide lamps you’ll probably ever
>> see.
>>
>> Even if you don’t plan to buy anything, Texas cavers are invited to see
>> online photos and a brief video of this diverse collection. There are 66
>> lamps and many parts offered for sale (12 lamps were previously sold to a
>> collector). Now the remaining lamps are offered to cavers for two weeks,
>> then they will be sold on eBay.
>>
>>
>>
>> The owner, long-time Austin caver Logan McNatt (retired), collected these
>> lamps over 50 years. Logan asks you not to contact him about his lamps. He
>> asked me, William R. (Bill) Elliott, to be his exclusive representative. I
>> thank Pam Lynn, Joe Sumbera and Gayle Unruh for helping me catalog Logan’s
>> lamps (we did this for free; the proceeds will go to Logan and his family.)
>>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Important carbide lamp collection for sale

[Charles Loving]

tiny carbide light. I found one about the size of my hand. It is very worn
but all of it is there.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 12:42 PM William R. Elliott 
wrote:

> *Important carbide lamp collection for sale*
>
> The LM Collection of carbide lamps will be for sale starting April 19,
> 2022. This is the largest collection of carbide lamps you’ll probably ever
> see.
>
> Even if you don’t plan to buy anything, Texas cavers are invited to see
> online photos and a brief video of this diverse collection. There are 66
> lamps and many parts offered for sale (12 lamps were previously sold to a
> collector). Now the remaining lamps are offered to cavers for two weeks,
> then they will be sold on eBay.
>
>
>
> The owner, long-time Austin caver Logan McNatt (retired), collected these
> lamps over 50 years. Logan asks you not to contact him about his lamps. He
> asked me, William R. (Bill) Elliott, to be his exclusive representative. I
> thank Pam Lynn, Joe Sumbera and Gayle Unruh for helping me catalog Logan’s
> lamps (we did this for free; the proceeds will go to Logan and his family.)
>
>
>
> Images and a price list can be found at this link:
>
>
>
> *https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3odtzn8xou3bayj/AAAq5OyIAJSLvrZisyU6U82Za?dl=0*
> 
>
>
>
> You will see a lot of filenames. Just click on the first one,
> *carbide-clip-TSA.mp4*, and you will see a short video of the lamps. The
> second file, *carbide-prices-LM.pdf*, details each lamp and batch prices,
> matched to the photos. Each batch is pictured twice, like LM-Batch-01a.JPG
> (front view), LM-Batch-01b.JPG  (back view). You can advance through the 27
> batches like a slideshow, depending on your computer. You may download any
> of it.
>
> This silent auction includes 63 carbide lamps, 3 electric lamps, and
> parts, but you also can see photos of the ones that sold. There are cap
> (caver) lamps, large hand lanterns (miner’s lamps) and bicycle lamps. (The
> owner is keeping a reference book, a few nice lamps, empty boxes and
> containers.)
>
> Most lamps are in good to excellent condition. Some are rare. Three
> batches of parts are offered with many reflectors, lamp tops, bottoms,
> gaskets and felts. Lamps could be assembled from these parts, but you may
> have to buy wingnuts and other small parts on eBay to complete them.
>
> Brands include 20th Century, Autolite, Badger Brass, Butterfly, Conger,
> Dewar, Fred R. Belt, Guy's Dropper, Hine-Watt Columbia, Hugo Zweigle,
> Justrite, Minex, Oxweld, Powell & Hanmer Ltd. and Premier. Some are rare
> bicycle lamps with red and green glass sidelights.
>
>
>
> Own a piece of historical technology! Please see the video, photos and
> price list first. This is a silent, online auction—pay our price to be sure
> to get a batch of lamps, first-come, first-served. Note that our prices are
> 65-75% of the average for each brand on eBay. That’s a good deal. You might
> go together with friends to buy a batch, or you may email your private bid
> to me; your name remains private. I reserve the right to reject low offers.
> If you bid below our price, you’ll have to wait a few days for the outcome.
>
> PayPal and Venmo are the preferred methods of payment. The buyer also pays
> UPS ground shipping up front, so I have to calculate that. You can arrange
> to pick up the items to save on UPS ground shipping.
>
> Except for one electric hand lamp, we will not be selling single lamps; it
> requires too much time for 66 deals. If you want a single lamp, you can
> find them on eBay at these average prices: Autolite $59, Premier $53, Guy's
> Dropper $50, Justrite $39. Some go for much more.
>
>
>
> After May 3 the remaining lamps will be sold in batches on eBay to provide
> the best benefit to the owner.
>
>
>
> In addition, at Logan’s request I have restored and polished 3 lamps to
> donate to TSS (Texas Speleological Survey). They are not pictured here, but
> will be auctioned later on. They include an Autolite, Guys Dropper, and a
> Premier lamp. They are pretty!
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> *William R. (Bill) Elliott*
>
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
>
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
>
> speodes...@gmail.com
>
> 573-291-5093 cell
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Charlie Loving
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Re: [Texascavers] James Jasek Update

[William R. Elliott]

Mimi, we are with you and Jim. I'll call you today.

*William R. (Bill) Elliott*

30105 Briarcrest Court

Georgetown, Texas 78628

*speodes...@gmail.com *

573-291-5093 cell


On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 4:49 AM Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> I will be bringing Jim home soon since the facility has said he has
> plateaued in his rehab. Unfortunately the anesthesia put him back mentally
> as to cognition abilities. They feel he is strong, can do things, but takes
> single instructions to accomplish them. They suggest 24/7 care for his
> safety. Perhaps they are right, and perhaps his dementia? or frontal lobe
> stroke damage got worse from the surgery to fix his hip. I personally know
> he did not get the same kind of rehab this time that he got after the
> stroke. Different facility for a number of reasons. I saw deficiencies and
> he told me of one therapist’s frustration with him. No matter. Seems like
> we went one step back, then two or three more. I needed him to be so much
> better before bringing him home, but we shall see. I must get Home Health
> Care and sitters - again - arranged for next week, besides working normal
> hours and having PTO blackout till 5/4 due to phone system change at work.
> He may come home in wheelchair, but our house is not good for that. He can
> walk on his walker though. He has to.
>
> I sold his truck to pay down some of our past debt to help me get closer
> to retirement to be with him, but this money will now be used for his care.
> Since he has been in rehab both our phones went out, I had to get him a
> tablet till replacement for him comes in so he would have a way to watch
> his movies, both 1965 era toilets in house broke, and sewer and water lines
> from house to street had to be replaced! All that on top of replacing
> washer and water heater a few months ago, as well as the tub to shower
> conversion for him. I keep thinking ok enough already! Lol  I have an older
> sister and friends say for me to really think about long term care, but I
> know he is not there, and will not give up on him. He is a human being, not
> something to be thrown out with the trash! They worry about me though, but…
>
> I have had times of great frustration and sadness even before Jim broke
> his hip with how our lives have changed due to his health issues. I am
> exhausted, I have developed a manageable heart condition myself due to kind
> of managing a high BP problem somehow when going for checkups maybe for
> years to where it went undetected till later last year. Then his hip. My
> desire some days to just walk away from my financial responsibilities for
> us so I can be with him is almost overwhelming. But…I don’t know how it
> happened, but the other night I suddenly realized what my place is in all
> this, and really always has been - that of his champion, his caretaker and
> caregiver to the end, no matter the cost. I have no one else to depend on,
> no ready help, and no one on this earth loves that man like me. I can still
> feel stressed and overwhelmed, but when he asks me not to leave him and to
> please take him home, well…
>
> I am up late a lot, and have started watching some Saturday night music
> shows on CBS. As luck would have it tonight I saw a show about Rob Thomas
> of Matchbox 20. He did his solo songs “Unwell”, which equated to Jim, and
> “Ever the Same” which is us in a nutshell! Then Ryan Hurd was on later and
> sang his song “Wish for the World” - another affirmation of us. I quietly
> cried, knowing this is us, and somehow we will once again make it through.
>
> Our world is so messed up right now. In recent years we have lost too many
> in our community. We also have a number in our caving community who are
> aging and need help and someone to care for them. Some are luckier than
> others. Just do not take life for granted, and if you can give of your self
> and your time to another, do so. It means the world believe me. Create your
> own safety net too for your future, for life happens.
>
> Be safe and well, and go outside to enjoy the beauty our world has to
> share - whether above the crust or below. We seriously both wish we could
> join you 
>
> Mimi Jasek
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish are developing cave-specific accents :

[Mark Minton]

Thanks, Bill. I do have a copy of Bulletin 26, and after I sent my email I
looked up Subterráneo. I should have done that before sending my message.
For some reason that name hadn't stuck with me.

Mark

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:26 AM William R. Elliott 
wrote:

> Cueva del Subterráneo is the most studied of the three Micos caves in the
> Micos or Río Subterráneo Area, located 15 km west of Ciudad Valles, San
> Luis Potosí, in the small Sierra de San Dieguito, just west of Sierra la
> Colmena.
>
> The map was published in 2018:   http://www.mexicancaves.org/maps/3772.pdf
>
>
> It was published in AMCS Bulletin 26, which you can still buy at the AMCS
> website.
>
> Elliott, William R. 2018. The *Astyanax* Caves of Mexico. Cavefishes of
> Tamaulipas, San Luis Potosí, and Guerrero. Association for Mexican Cave
> Studies, Bulletin 26. Austin, Texas. 326 pp.
>
> Or you can download the large pdf at my website at
> https://cavelife.info/pdf/pdf.htm
>
> From my book:
>
> "Cueva del Río Subterráneo is about 500 m long, the largest cave in the
> Micos Area. The lost cave survey of 1971 was found in 2017... The cave is
> the original site of the “Micosfish” of Wilkens and Burns 1972, an evolving
> population with reduced eyes and pigment, which hybridizes with surface
> fishes in two of the three inhabited pools."
>
> Micos apparently is a different stock of fish from the main El Abra
> Region, as determined by genomic studies.
>
> *William R. (Bill) Elliott*
>
> 30105 Briarcrest Court
>
> Georgetown, Texas 78628
>
> *speodes...@gmail.com *
>
> 573-291-5093 cell
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:30 AM Mark Minton 
> wrote:
>
>> Very interesting. I've heard of most of the caves they mentioned, but not 
>> Subterráneo.
>> Anyone know about that cave?
>>
>> Mark Minton
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 3:58 AM Jerry  wrote:
>>
>>> Blind Mexican cave fish are developing cave-specific accents
>>> The Mexican tetra has evolved to live in a number of dark caves – and
>>> now we know that the fish in each cave use clicks to communicate in
>>> distinct ways
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2316002-blind-mexican-cave-fish-are-developing-cave-specific-accents/
>>>
>>> Jerry Atkinson
>>>
>>
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Re: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish are developing cave-specific accents :

[William R. Elliott]

Cueva del Subterráneo is the most studied of the three Micos caves in the
Micos or Río Subterráneo Area, located 15 km west of Ciudad Valles, San
Luis Potosí, in the small Sierra de San Dieguito, just west of Sierra la
Colmena.

The map was published in 2018:   http://www.mexicancaves.org/maps/3772.pdf

It was published in AMCS Bulletin 26, which you can still buy at the AMCS
website.

Elliott, William R. 2018. The *Astyanax* Caves of Mexico. Cavefishes of
Tamaulipas, San Luis Potosí, and Guerrero. Association for Mexican Cave
Studies, Bulletin 26. Austin, Texas. 326 pp.

Or you can download the large pdf at my website at
https://cavelife.info/pdf/pdf.htm

>From my book:

"Cueva del Río Subterráneo is about 500 m long, the largest cave in the
Micos Area. The lost cave survey of 1971 was found in 2017... The cave is
the original site of the “Micosfish” of Wilkens and Burns 1972, an evolving
population with reduced eyes and pigment, which hybridizes with surface
fishes in two of the three inhabited pools."

Micos apparently is a different stock of fish from the main El Abra Region,
as determined by genomic studies.

*William R. (Bill) Elliott*

30105 Briarcrest Court

Georgetown, Texas 78628

*speodes...@gmail.com *

573-291-5093 cell


On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:30 AM Mark Minton  wrote:

> Very interesting. I've heard of most of the caves they mentioned, but not 
> Subterráneo.
> Anyone know about that cave?
>
> Mark Minton
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 3:58 AM Jerry  wrote:
>
>> Blind Mexican cave fish are developing cave-specific accents
>> The Mexican tetra has evolved to live in a number of dark caves – and now
>> we know that the fish in each cave use clicks to communicate in distinct
>> ways
>>
>>
>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2316002-blind-mexican-cave-fish-are-developing-cave-specific-accents/
>>
>> Jerry Atkinson
>>
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>
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Re: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish are developing cave-specific accents :

[Mark Minton]

Thanks, Andy.

Mark

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:06 AM Andy Gluesenkamp <
andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was just there last month.  Cueva Rio Subterraneo is a few KM NE of
> Rascon, SLP, not far from Micos.  It is adjacent to Cueva los Otates.
> Here's a pic of a surface fish trying to school with a cavefish in Pool 1,
> CRS.
>
> Andrew. Gluesenkamp, PhD
> 700 Billie Brooks Lane
> Driftwood, Texas 78619
> (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com
>
> On Friday, April 15, 2022, 08:30:29 AM CDT, Mark Minton <
> mamintonca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Very interesting. I've heard of most of the caves they mentioned, but not 
> Subterráneo.
> Anyone know about that cave?
>
> Mark Minton
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 3:58 AM Jerry  wrote:
>
> Blind Mexican cave fish are developing cave-specific accents
> The Mexican tetra has evolved to live in a number of dark caves – and now
> we know that the fish in each cave use clicks to communicate in distinct
> ways
>
>
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2316002-blind-mexican-cave-fish-are-developing-cave-specific-accents/
>
> Jerry Atkinson
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish are developing cave-specific accents :

[Mark Minton]

Very interesting. I've heard of most of the caves they mentioned, but
not Subterráneo.
Anyone know about that cave?

Mark Minton

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 3:58 AM Jerry  wrote:

> Blind Mexican cave fish are developing cave-specific accents
> The Mexican tetra has evolved to live in a number of dark caves – and now
> we know that the fish in each cave use clicks to communicate in distinct
> ways
>
>
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2316002-blind-mexican-cave-fish-are-developing-cave-specific-accents/
>
> Jerry Atkinson
>
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Re: [Texascavers] repair for fiberglass tape

[Mark Minton]

If you make the repair using duct tape or something similar, consider
putting in a couple of stitches with a sewing awl. That will go a long way
toward preventing the repair from pulling apart. Alternatively, I've just
used the tape starting at the 2-meter mark, or whatever, and subtracting 2
m from every shot. Many modern data reduction programs even have a built-in
provision for such corrections, just as they do for compass corrections.
Although of course this is a possible source of error if someone does it
wrong.

Better yet, get a DistoX and forget about tapes, compasses and clinometers
once and for all. Even a simple unmodified Disto would be a cheap and
better alternative to a tape under most circumstances.

Mark Minton

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Fofo  wrote:

> If you already have some Tear-Aid tape at home, I would give it a try (and
> if you haven't tried it, it's a good one to keep around for patching tents,
> down sleeping bags or jackets, etc).
>
> Type A is general purpose and type B is for vinyl.
>
> - Fofo
>
> El mar. 29, 2022, a la(s) 15:07, Jim Kennedy 
> escribió:
>
> Or buy a brand new tape from Harbor Freight Tools for $13.
>
>
> https://www.harborfreight.com/100-ft-x-12-in-open-reel-measuring-tape-62411.html
>
> Crash
>
> Mobile email from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 29, 2022, at 4:51 PM, Diana Tomchick <
> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:
>
>  Or you can buy a replacement tape for your reel from Forestry Supplies
> for less than $20.
>
> https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/ViewItem.php?itemnum=39977
>
> Diana
>
> On Mar 29, 2022, at 4:03 PM, Jon  wrote:
>
> I'm in need of some technical help from the most experienced group I know
> in the use and maintenance of fiberglass tape measures.
> I have a 100' open reel that got broken at about the one-meter mark.   Its
> a ragged break but no missing pieces, it fits back together like a puzzle
> piece.
> Question:
> How best to reattach the two pieces?  Some type of glue with a strip
> acting as a splint?
> Who knows what's been tried?
> I have tried to contact several tape measure companies but I have had no
> luck with them giving me any help.
>
> Jon
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] repair for fiberglass tape

[Fofo]

If you already have some Tear-Aid tape at home, I would give it a try (and if 
you haven't tried it, it's a good one to keep around for patching tents, down 
sleeping bags or jackets, etc). 

Type A is general purpose and type B is for vinyl.

- Fofo 


> El mar. 29, 2022, a la(s) 15:07, Jim Kennedy  escribió:
> 
> Or buy a brand new tape from Harbor Freight Tools for $13. 
> 
> https://www.harborfreight.com/100-ft-x-12-in-open-reel-measuring-tape-62411.html
> 
> Crash
> 
> Mobile email from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Mar 29, 2022, at 4:51 PM, Diana Tomchick 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>  Or you can buy a replacement tape for your reel from Forestry Supplies for 
>> less than $20.
>> 
>> https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/ViewItem.php?itemnum=39977
>> 
>> Diana
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 29, 2022, at 4:03 PM, Jon  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> EXTERNAL MAIL
>> 
>> 
>> I'm in need of some technical help from the most experienced group I know in 
>> the use and maintenance of fiberglass tape measures.
>> I have a 100' open reel that got broken at about the one-meter mark.   Its a 
>> ragged break but no missing pieces, it fits back together like a puzzle 
>> piece.
>> Question:
>> How best to reattach the two pieces?  Some type of glue with a strip acting 
>> as a splint? 
>> Who knows what's been tried?
>> I have tried to contact several tape measure companies but I have had no 
>> luck with them giving me any help.
>> 
>> Jon
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Re: [Texascavers] repair for fiberglass tape

[Jim Kennedy]

Or buy a brand new tape from Harbor Freight Tools for $13. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/100-ft-x-12-in-open-reel-measuring-tape-62411.html

Crash

Mobile email from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2022, at 4:51 PM, Diana Tomchick 
>  wrote:
> 
>  Or you can buy a replacement tape for your reel from Forestry Supplies for 
> less than $20.
> 
> https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/ViewItem.php?itemnum=39977
> 
> Diana
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 29, 2022, at 4:03 PM, Jon  wrote:
> 
> 
> EXTERNAL MAIL
> 
> 
> I'm in need of some technical help from the most experienced group I know in 
> the use and maintenance of fiberglass tape measures.
> I have a 100' open reel that got broken at about the one-meter mark.   Its a 
> ragged break but no missing pieces, it fits back together like a puzzle piece.
> Question:
> How best to reattach the two pieces?  Some type of glue with a strip acting 
> as a splint? 
> Who knows what's been tried?
> I have tried to contact several tape measure companies but I have had no luck 
> with them giving me any help.
> 
> Jon
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Re: [Texascavers] Repair for fiberglass tape

[Diana Tomchick]

Or you can buy a replacement tape for your reel from Forestry Supplies for less 
than $20.

https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/ViewItem.php?itemnum=39977

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
UT Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)




On Mar 29, 2022, at 4:03 PM, Jon 
mailto:cavefa...@yahoo.com>> wrote:


EXTERNAL MAIL

I'm in need of some technical help from the most experienced group I know in 
the use and maintenance of fiberglass tape measures.
I have a 100' open reel that got broken at about the one-meter mark.   Its a 
ragged break but no missing pieces, it fits back together like a puzzle piece.
Question:
How best to reattach the two pieces?  Some type of glue with a strip acting as 
a splint?
Who knows what's been tried?
I have tried to contact several tape measure companies but I have had no luck 
with them giving me any help.

Jon


CAUTION: This email originated from outside UTSW. Please be cautious of links 
or attachments, and validate the sender's email address before replying.

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UT Southwestern

Medical Center

The future of medicine, today.
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cave and karst news and announcements from NCKRI

[Linda Starr]

John, et. al.,
 I am anti-war, but the Ukraine is suffering from war with Russia to
protect Ukraine freedom, some of which was taken in Crimea.  I am strongly
anti-Russia and V. Putin - a criminal agitator who spreads lies to make his
inhumane actions justified.  They are NOT justified.
 I would never (did not for Afghanistan or Vietnam) support troops or
weapons going to fight wars on foreign lands. Our support for Ukraine
should be food, shelter, water, refuge, mental health counseling,
supporting safe travel routes.  Our support for Ukraine cavers should be no
Russian caving or contribution to Russia's cave and karst research.

 These are more than interesting times.  They are critical times in
multiple ways - especially our climate.  Now we have people in our own
country--where many seek only to divide us--peopele who are cruel to others
spreading lies to justify their cruelty.  We need to spread Peace, more
than Hope, Love and Health whenever we can.  I am an old hippie, yes.  Make
love to Planet Earth (all of it, not just the caves), not war.  I worry
about the loss of species habitat all over the world as with border walls
that animals cannot follow their usual migration.

Linda

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 7:37 AM John Cochran  wrote:

> Linda
>
> Are you suggesting that sometimes we have to send our young men to war to
> fight against men like Putin? or should we send our best wishes and
> military donations?
>
> In my adult life, this is the first time I have heard open discussion of
> nuclear war (I think it is saber rattling and very very unlikely)- that
> said, we are engaged in serious brinkmanship with Russia - and China is
> watching closely
>
> Interesting times these are
>
> John
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 20, 2022, at 11:25 PM, Linda Starr  wrote:
>
> 
> Right on, Stan. We cannot belittle the horrible Russian invasion of
> Ukraine people and their families and the land. We must stand strongly
> against Russians as long as they follow this cruel monster Putin.
> Linda Starr
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 9:40 PM 'Stan Allison' via Southwestern Cavers of
> the National Speleological Society  wrote:
>
>> Dear cavers,
>>
>> I was extremely disappointed in the milquetoast response of the UIS
>> leadership to the Russian invasion of Ukraine where innocent Ukrainian
>> civilians are being killed by Russians. I was even more disappointed after
>> reading the Ukrainian Speleological Society Association response to the UIS
>> Bureau Statement on the Situation in Ukraine. I'm attaching it to this
>> email or you can read it online here:
>>
>> http://speleoukraine.org/index.php/en/1162-pozitsiya-uis-shcho-do-rosijsko-ukrajinskoji-vijni-eng
>>
>> Even neutral Switzerland has taken a stand on this Russian invasion and
>> the war crimes being committed by Russia against Ukraine. Even as
>> passionate as I am about caves, I know that human life is worth more than a
>> temporary exclusion of UIS cooperation with Russian speleologists.
>>
>> When Alexander Klimchouk of Ukraine lived in Carlsbad for some time, we
>> were fortunate to spend time with him caving and hanging out on our porch
>> drinking beer and talking about caves and the political world that we live
>> in. I haven't seen Alexander for many years, but I still consider him a
>> good friend. It is my understanding that he is currently in Kiev. Rather
>> than fleeing the country he has chosen to stay and defend his country. I
>> wish him and his countrymen the best. If the worst happens to Alexander and
>> Ukraine, I hope that UIS leadership will do more than express it's "deep
>> dismay".
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Stan Allison
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: 'George Veni' via Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological
>> Society 
>> To: New Mexico Cavers (swrcav...@googlegroups.com) <
>> swrcav...@googlegroups.com>; Texas Cavers (Texascavers@texascavers.com) <
>> texascavers@texascavers.com>
>> Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2022 4:55 pm
>> Subject: [SWR CAVERS] Cave and karst news and announcements from NCKRI
>>
>> Dear Friends,
>>
>> Below is the list of the latest news from NCKRI and our friends. The
>> detailed information is in the attached file.
>>
>> *The International Year of Caves and Karst: Keeps Getting Better*
>>
>> *Various News:*
>>
>>- *UIS Bureau Statement on the Situation in Ukraine*
>>- *Message from the Ukrainian Speleological Association*
>>- *International Show Caves Association: Newest Newsletter*
>>- *New Book From La Venta*
>>- *Two Grants for White-Nose Syndrome*
>>
>>
>> *Job Opportunities*
>>
>>- *Job Opportunity: Assistant Cave Manager, Forestville/Mystery Cave
>>State Park, Minnesota, USA*
>>- *Job Opportunity: Archaeologist, Texas, USA*
>>
>>
>> *Student and Training Opportunities:*
>>
>>- *29th International Karstological School: Update*
>>
>>
>> *Conferences and Meetings*
>>
>>- *International Congress of Speleology: Registration Deadline Soon!*

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cave and karst news and announcements from NCKRI

[Linda Starr]

Right on, Stan. We cannot belittle the horrible Russian invasion of Ukraine
people and their families and the land. We must stand strongly against
Russians as long as they follow this cruel monster Putin.
Linda Starr


On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 9:40 PM 'Stan Allison' via Southwestern Cavers of
the National Speleological Society  wrote:

> Dear cavers,
>
> I was extremely disappointed in the milquetoast response of the UIS
> leadership to the Russian invasion of Ukraine where innocent Ukrainian
> civilians are being killed by Russians. I was even more disappointed after
> reading the Ukrainian Speleological Society Association response to the UIS
> Bureau Statement on the Situation in Ukraine. I'm attaching it to this
> email or you can read it online here:
>
> http://speleoukraine.org/index.php/en/1162-pozitsiya-uis-shcho-do-rosijsko-ukrajinskoji-vijni-eng
>
> Even neutral Switzerland has taken a stand on this Russian invasion and
> the war crimes being committed by Russia against Ukraine. Even as
> passionate as I am about caves, I know that human life is worth more than a
> temporary exclusion of UIS cooperation with Russian speleologists.
>
> When Alexander Klimchouk of Ukraine lived in Carlsbad for some time, we
> were fortunate to spend time with him caving and hanging out on our porch
> drinking beer and talking about caves and the political world that we live
> in. I haven't seen Alexander for many years, but I still consider him a
> good friend. It is my understanding that he is currently in Kiev. Rather
> than fleeing the country he has chosen to stay and defend his country. I
> wish him and his countrymen the best. If the worst happens to Alexander and
> Ukraine, I hope that UIS leadership will do more than express it's "deep
> dismay".
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Stan Allison
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 'George Veni' via Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological
> Society 
> To: New Mexico Cavers (swrcav...@googlegroups.com) <
> swrcav...@googlegroups.com>; Texas Cavers (Texascavers@texascavers.com) <
> texascavers@texascavers.com>
> Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2022 4:55 pm
> Subject: [SWR CAVERS] Cave and karst news and announcements from NCKRI
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> Below is the list of the latest news from NCKRI and our friends. The
> detailed information is in the attached file.
>
> *The International Year of Caves and Karst: Keeps Getting Better*
>
> *Various News:*
>
>- *UIS Bureau Statement on the Situation in Ukraine*
>- *Message from the Ukrainian Speleological Association*
>- *International Show Caves Association: Newest Newsletter*
>- *New Book From La Venta*
>- *Two Grants for White-Nose Syndrome*
>
>
> *Job Opportunities*
>
>- *Job Opportunity: Assistant Cave Manager, Forestville/Mystery Cave
>State Park, Minnesota, USA*
>- *Job Opportunity: Archaeologist, Texas, USA*
>
>
> *Student and Training Opportunities:*
>
>- *29th International Karstological School: Update*
>
>
> *Conferences and Meetings*
>
>- *International Congress of Speleology: Registration Deadline Soon!*
>- *2022 White-Nose Syndrome National Meeting: USA*
>- *List of Upcoming Cave and Karst Meetings*
>
>
> Please contact the people and organizations listed in the attached file
> for more information, and feel free to share this message with anyone who
> may be interested.
>
> If you know anyone who like to join this list, simply e-mail me and I’ll
> add you. If you have news you would like to share, please send it.
>
> George
>
> 
> George  Veni, PhD
> Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
> and
> President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)
>
> *NCKRI address (primary)*
> 400-1 Cascades Avenue
> 
>
>
> 
> Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
> 
>
> 
> Office: +575
> 
> -887-5517
> Mobile: +210-863-5919
> Fax: +575-887-5523
> gv...@nckri.org
> www.nckri.org
>
> *UIS address*
> Titov trg 2
> 
>
> 
> Postojna
> 

Re: [Texascavers] Vampire Bat Immigration

[Mark Minton]

One should be careful when sleeping in the open air in vampire bat country.
They apparently are known to feed on exposed extremities like toes. Bummer
if they make it to Texas, or even Bustamante. They used to be found only
further south.

Mark Minton

On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:41 PM Bob West  wrote:

> From Texas A AgriLife Extension through my County Agriculural Extension
> Agent...
>
> I'll never forget my first encounter with vampire bat shit (and looking up
> to see the bats) while caving in the Xilitla area of Mexico many moons ago.
>
> Vampire bats could move into Texas
> Vampire bats are mainly found in Mexico and Central and South America, but
> their habitat has been expanding north into the U.S. over the past few
> years.
> In Mexico, vampire bats cause about $47 million a year in damages through
> livestock predation and public health risk concerns. The warm-blooded
> flying mammals are particularly attracted to cattle, according to Dr.
> Joanne Maki, a rabies expert and Technical Director for the North American
> Veterinary Public Health group at Boehringer Ingelheim Animal Health.
> It also feeds on other livestock, but primarily cattle, and those animals
> suffer because of the blood meals being taken. Not only are those animals
> at risk for potentially having rabies transmitted by the bite of a vampire
> bat, but due to the blood meal the vampire bat consumes, it stresses the
> cattle or stresses the horse, and you see a decrease in that animal’s
> production levels.
>
> Since the vampire bat has been detected as close as 35-40 miles south of
> the Texas-Mexico border, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) and
> other governmental agencies have increased surveillance.
> Feedlots, farms and wild animal habitats are being surveyed for signs of
> vampire bat feeding.
> If someone has an animal with an atypical bite wound, such as on the ears
> or neck or withers, where vampire bats feed, [USDA’s] Wildlife Services
> wants to know about it. The Texas Department of State Health Services
> (DSHS) should also have more information about the surveillance program,
> awareness and resources for people interested in learning more.
> The rabies case-reporting system in Texas is linked with federal
> information, which helps equip the Lone Star State to handle a potential
> vampire bat spread.
> Signs and symptoms of rabies in animals
> In animals, rabies manifests in one of two forms: furious and paralytic.
> Maki noted the form is influenced by the animal species.
> Dogs and cats quite often get the furious form of rabies, the typical
> thing we think of when we think ‘rabid animal.’ Foxes can also become very
> aggressive, lose their fear of humans and attack, and bite them. “But the
> other form, paralytic or ‘dumb,’ is when the rabies virus basically causes
> paralysis in an animal, and they’re showing neurological symptoms like
> staggering or weaving around during the daytime when that wildlife species
> would normally be out only at night.
> Other animals with paralytic rabies may hide under vehicles or in sheds or
> other places around homes and businesses because they’re sick and have lost
> their innate sense of self-preservation. Maki said this form can be even
> more dangerous to humans because people may think the animal needs help and
> approach it.
> Cattle often get the paralytic form. But since there are a lot of
> different diseases that can cause neurological symptoms in livestock, we
> want to be sure livestock owners are aware that rabies may be the issue.
> Recumbency, not being able to rise, weakness in the hind legs, stumbling,
> hitting the head on a fence—those are not normal behaviors for a cow.
> Livestock producers should associate these signs with rabies, especially in
> unvaccinated animals or those with lapsed vaccinations, so they do not end
> up exposing themselves while handling that sick animal.
> It is advised ranchers to contact a veterinarian immediately if they
> notice livestock exhibiting these symptoms. Veterinarians are best
> qualified to make preliminary differential diagnoses between rabies or
> other issues while handling the animal safely.
> If you’re bitten and the animal is rabid, the post-exposure prophylaxis is
> expensive. The technology has changed and the number of doses of vaccine
> you would receive are not as plentiful or as painful in the past, but it’s
> still expensive.
> Ecologists and other scientists are working on both sides of the border to
> monitor vampire bats and provide timely information.
>
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Re: [Texascavers] [Sandia Grotto]: Miniature cave robots

[Linda Starr]

What happens if they get lost in the cracks or fall down a droooff?
Linda

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 1:33 PM Lee H. Skinner  wrote:

> Here is an interesting story on robotic bugs:
>
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220303191454.htm
>
>
> "... researchers at the University of Pittsburgh have created tiny
> bug-inspired robots that can carry out tasks in hard-to-reach spaces and
> inhospitable environments.
>
> These robots could be used to access confined areas for imaging or
> environmental evaluation, take water samples, or perform structural
> evaluations,” said Junfeng Gao, who led the work as a PhD student in
> industrial engineering at the Swanson School of Engineering. “Anywhere
> you want to access confined places—where a bug could go but a person
> could not—these machines could be useful.”
>
>
> Now, what if we could put a bunch of them into a passage's breakdown
> terminus into different cracks, give them a compass orientation as to
> the passage's probable continuation, then let them go into the many
> holes between the rocks. These bugs, about the size of a cave cricket,
> would then explore and take images along the way (they would have to
> have a light source), and return by the same route they took.
>
>
> Lee Skinner
>
>
> BTW, is the below image familiar to you?  
>
> --
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Re: [Texascavers] James Jasek Update

[Linda Palit]

Keep us all informed of progress. Bet we can work something out if he is up
to coming.
Love to you both.


On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 2:44 PM Bill Steele  wrote:

> Mimi,
>
> Maybe some bighearted Texas cavers have an RV they could bring to the TSA
> convention for Jim and you to use and they sleep in a tent. That would be
> nice of them.
>
> Bill
>
> On Mar 4, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Kris Pena  wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hi Mimi,
>
> Cave Without A Name rents out sites with RV hookups in the campground. Not
> sure if that's an option for y'all but wanted to make sure you knew about
> it. You'd still have to bring your own RV and the campsite has a separate
> fee payable directly to Cave Without A Name ($32 a night I think, but you'd
> have to verify with the park), but wanted to throw it out there as
> something for you guys to think about. We'd love to see you and Jim out
> there if it's possible for him!
>
> Kris
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 1:08 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> What a lovely and generous offer! I had spoken to Jim about the
>> convention already and was trying to figure out how to get him there. He
>> had expressed interest in going. Let us see how rehab goes, and if a
>> possibility I will reach out. We no longer even have a workable tent
>> anymore or cots. Maybe still an air mattress?! Last big trip to Big Bend
>> kind of messed up equipment due to extremely high winds!
>>
>> I am sure he would love a copy of yhat map
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 4, 2022, at 11:05 AM, Bill Steele 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mimi,
>>
>> Please give Jim my best regards and tell him that the Texas caving family
>> misses seeing him and we all want him to recover fully and come to the TSA
>> convention at CWAN in May. We’ll organize a Jim Jasek haul, like we do
>> Honey Creek tank hauls, to carry him into the cave down those many steps
>> for the talks and back out again.
>>
>> Has he seen Bennett Lee’s nice map of Adam Wilson’s Cave? If not, I’ll be
>> glad to send him a paper copy of it. James worked on mapping that cave.
>>
>> Kindest regards,
>>
>> Bill Steele
>> Irving, Texas
>>
>> On Mar 3, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Jim’s surgery went as expected. Will stay in hospital till blood
>> thickness back to normal and PT/OT and doc say he is medically ok for
>> rehab. Had major questions from family, so put this together.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here are better images and Jim's actual X-rays. Left hip area fracture.
>> No actual hip bone, but top Femur where turns to go to connect to pelvis
>> called hip bone. Three surgical arthroscopic small  cuts - one at top, one
>> part way down, and one lower. Used short rod - not all the way to knee.
>> Pulled on leg, rotated till bones knit in place, then this which explains
>> X-rays.
>>
>>
>> An intramedullary nail is a metal rod that is inserted into the medullary
>> cavity of a bone and across the fracture in order to provide a solid
>> support for the fractured bone. Intramedullary nailing is currently
>> considered the "gold standard" for treatment of femoral shaft fractures
>> (Rudloff 2009).Feb 2, 2018
>>
>>
>> Nurse also just told me way less pain than with replacement or other hip
>> area fractures. Reiterated what doc said - best place to break hip if get a
>> break! You can see from first X-ray how bone at almost 90 degree angle, and
>> in last one of fixed bone how in correct position. End of anatomy and
>> surgery lesson ❤️
>>
>>
>> Sitting in chair today hopefully till after supper!
>>
>>
>> Just got word got accepted into rehab docs like which is right by
>> hospital and close to home and docs. Looking up.
>>
>>
>> Mimi
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Texascavers] James Jasek Update

[Bill Steele]

Mimi, 

Maybe some bighearted Texas cavers have an RV they could bring to the TSA 
convention for Jim and you to use and they sleep in a tent. That would be nice 
of them. 

Bill 

> On Mar 4, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Kris Pena  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Mimi,
> 
> Cave Without A Name rents out sites with RV hookups in the campground. Not 
> sure if that's an option for y'all but wanted to make sure you knew about it. 
> You'd still have to bring your own RV and the campsite has a separate fee 
> payable directly to Cave Without A Name ($32 a night I think, but you'd have 
> to verify with the park), but wanted to throw it out there as something for 
> you guys to think about. We'd love to see you and Jim out there if it's 
> possible for him!
> 
> Kris
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 1:08 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>> Hi Bill,
>> 
>> What a lovely and generous offer! I had spoken to Jim about the convention 
>> already and was trying to figure out how to get him there. He had expressed 
>> interest in going. Let us see how rehab goes, and if a possibility I will 
>> reach out. We no longer even have a workable tent anymore or cots. Maybe 
>> still an air mattress?! Last big trip to Big Bend kind of messed up 
>> equipment due to extremely high winds!
>> 
>> I am sure he would love a copy of yhat map
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Mar 4, 2022, at 11:05 AM, Bill Steele  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mimi, 
>>> 
>>> Please give Jim my best regards and tell him that the Texas caving family 
>>> misses seeing him and we all want him to recover fully and come to the TSA 
>>> convention at CWAN in May. We’ll organize a Jim Jasek haul, like we do 
>>> Honey Creek tank hauls, to carry him into the cave down those many steps 
>>> for the talks and back out again. 
>>> 
>>> Has he seen Bennett Lee’s nice map of Adam Wilson’s Cave? If not, I’ll be 
>>> glad to send him a paper copy of it. James worked on mapping that cave.
>>> 
>>> Kindest regards,
>>> 
>>> Bill Steele 
>>> Irving, Texas
>>> 
> On Mar 3, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> 
 
 
 Jim’s surgery went as expected. Will stay in hospital till blood thickness 
 back to normal and PT/OT and doc say he is medically ok for rehab. Had 
 major questions from family, so put this together.
 
 
 Here are better images and Jim's actual X-rays. Left hip area fracture. No 
 actual hip bone, but top Femur where turns to go to connect to pelvis 
 called hip bone. Three surgical arthroscopic small  cuts - one at top, one 
 part way down, and one lower. Used short rod - not all the way to knee. 
 Pulled on leg, rotated till bones knit in place, then this which explains 
 X-rays.  
 
 An intramedullary nail is a metal rod that is inserted into the medullary 
 cavity of a bone and across the fracture in order to provide a solid 
 support for the fractured bone. Intramedullary nailing is currently 
 considered the "gold standard" for treatment of femoral shaft fractures 
 (Rudloff 2009).Feb 2, 2018  
 
 Nurse also just told me way less pain than with replacement or other hip 
 area fractures. Reiterated what doc said - best place to break hip if get 
 a break! You can see from first X-ray how bone at almost 90 degree angle, 
 and in last one of fixed bone how in correct position. End of anatomy and 
 surgery lesson ❤️
 
 Sitting in chair today hopefully till after supper!
 
 Just got word got accepted into rehab docs like which is right by hospital 
 and close to home and docs. Looking up. 
 
 Mimi
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Texascavers] James Jasek Update

[Kris Pena]

Hi Mimi,

Cave Without A Name rents out sites with RV hookups in the campground. Not
sure if that's an option for y'all but wanted to make sure you knew about
it. You'd still have to bring your own RV and the campsite has a separate
fee payable directly to Cave Without A Name ($32 a night I think, but you'd
have to verify with the park), but wanted to throw it out there as
something for you guys to think about. We'd love to see you and Jim out
there if it's possible for him!

Kris


On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 1:08 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> What a lovely and generous offer! I had spoken to Jim about the convention
> already and was trying to figure out how to get him there. He had expressed
> interest in going. Let us see how rehab goes, and if a possibility I will
> reach out. We no longer even have a workable tent anymore or cots. Maybe
> still an air mattress?! Last big trip to Big Bend kind of messed up
> equipment due to extremely high winds!
>
> I am sure he would love a copy of yhat map
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 4, 2022, at 11:05 AM, Bill Steele  wrote:
>
> Hi Mimi,
>
> Please give Jim my best regards and tell him that the Texas caving family
> misses seeing him and we all want him to recover fully and come to the TSA
> convention at CWAN in May. We’ll organize a Jim Jasek haul, like we do
> Honey Creek tank hauls, to carry him into the cave down those many steps
> for the talks and back out again.
>
> Has he seen Bennett Lee’s nice map of Adam Wilson’s Cave? If not, I’ll be
> glad to send him a paper copy of it. James worked on mapping that cave.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Bill Steele
> Irving, Texas
>
> On Mar 3, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>
> 
>
> Jim’s surgery went as expected. Will stay in hospital till blood thickness
> back to normal and PT/OT and doc say he is medically ok for rehab. Had
> major questions from family, so put this together.
>
>
>
> Here are better images and Jim's actual X-rays. Left hip area fracture. No
> actual hip bone, but top Femur where turns to go to connect to pelvis
> called hip bone. Three surgical arthroscopic small  cuts - one at top, one
> part way down, and one lower. Used short rod - not all the way to knee.
> Pulled on leg, rotated till bones knit in place, then this which explains
> X-rays.
>
>
> An intramedullary nail is a metal rod that is inserted into the medullary
> cavity of a bone and across the fracture in order to provide a solid
> support for the fractured bone. Intramedullary nailing is currently
> considered the "gold standard" for treatment of femoral shaft fractures
> (Rudloff 2009).Feb 2, 2018
>
>
> Nurse also just told me way less pain than with replacement or other hip
> area fractures. Reiterated what doc said - best place to break hip if get a
> break! You can see from first X-ray how bone at almost 90 degree angle, and
> in last one of fixed bone how in correct position. End of anatomy and
> surgery lesson ❤️
>
>
> Sitting in chair today hopefully till after supper!
>
>
> Just got word got accepted into rehab docs like which is right by hospital
> and close to home and docs. Looking up.
>
>
> Mimi
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Texascavers] James Jasek Update

[Mimi Jasek]

Sorry Bill, 

Went to help him and hit send button before done!

I am sure he would love a copy of that map. If it is the cave I am thinking of, 
I have also been in it, but not on a camping trip. 

Rehab and PTO for me will determine next steps, but I will keep in touch. 

Sincerely,

Mimi

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 4, 2022, at 1:07 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> What a lovely and generous offer! I had spoken to Jim about the convention 
> already and was trying to figure out how to get him there. He had expressed 
> interest in going. Let us see how rehab goes, and if a possibility I will 
> reach out. We no longer even have a workable tent anymore or cots. Maybe 
> still an air mattress?! Last big trip to Big Bend kind of messed up equipment 
> due to extremely high winds!
> 
> I am sure he would love a copy of yhat map
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 4, 2022, at 11:05 AM, Bill Steele  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Mimi, 
>> 
>> Please give Jim my best regards and tell him that the Texas caving family 
>> misses seeing him and we all want him to recover fully and come to the TSA 
>> convention at CWAN in May. We’ll organize a Jim Jasek haul, like we do Honey 
>> Creek tank hauls, to carry him into the cave down those many steps for the 
>> talks and back out again. 
>> 
>> Has he seen Bennett Lee’s nice map of Adam Wilson’s Cave? If not, I’ll be 
>> glad to send him a paper copy of it. James worked on mapping that cave.
>> 
>> Kindest regards,
>> 
>> Bill Steele 
>> Irving, Texas
>> 
>>> On Mar 3, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jim’s surgery went as expected. Will stay in hospital till blood thickness 
>>> back to normal and PT/OT and doc say he is medically ok for rehab. Had 
>>> major questions from family, so put this together.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Here are better images and Jim's actual X-rays. Left hip area fracture. No 
>>> actual hip bone, but top Femur where turns to go to connect to pelvis 
>>> called hip bone. Three surgical arthroscopic small  cuts - one at top, one 
>>> part way down, and one lower. Used short rod - not all the way to knee. 
>>> Pulled on leg, rotated till bones knit in place, then this which explains 
>>> X-rays.  
>>> 
>>> An intramedullary nail is a metal rod that is inserted into the medullary 
>>> cavity of a bone and across the fracture in order to provide a solid 
>>> support for the fractured bone. Intramedullary nailing is currently 
>>> considered the "gold standard" for treatment of femoral shaft fractures 
>>> (Rudloff 2009).Feb 2, 2018  
>>> 
>>> Nurse also just told me way less pain than with replacement or other hip 
>>> area fractures. Reiterated what doc said - best place to break hip if get a 
>>> break! You can see from first X-ray how bone at almost 90 degree angle, and 
>>> in last one of fixed bone how in correct position. End of anatomy and 
>>> surgery lesson ❤️
>>> 
>>> Sitting in chair today hopefully till after supper!
>>> 
>>> Just got word got accepted into rehab docs like which is right by hospital 
>>> and close to home and docs. Looking up. 
>>> 
>>> Mimi
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Texascavers] James Jasek Update

[Mimi Jasek]

Hi Bill,

What a lovely and generous offer! I had spoken to Jim about the convention 
already and was trying to figure out how to get him there. He had expressed 
interest in going. Let us see how rehab goes, and if a possibility I will reach 
out. We no longer even have a workable tent anymore or cots. Maybe still an air 
mattress?! Last big trip to Big Bend kind of messed up equipment due to 
extremely high winds!

I am sure he would love a copy of yhat map

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 4, 2022, at 11:05 AM, Bill Steele  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mimi, 
> 
> Please give Jim my best regards and tell him that the Texas caving family 
> misses seeing him and we all want him to recover fully and come to the TSA 
> convention at CWAN in May. We’ll organize a Jim Jasek haul, like we do Honey 
> Creek tank hauls, to carry him into the cave down those many steps for the 
> talks and back out again. 
> 
> Has he seen Bennett Lee’s nice map of Adam Wilson’s Cave? If not, I’ll be 
> glad to send him a paper copy of it. James worked on mapping that cave.
> 
> Kindest regards,
> 
> Bill Steele 
> Irving, Texas
> 
>> On Mar 3, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Jim’s surgery went as expected. Will stay in hospital till blood thickness 
>> back to normal and PT/OT and doc say he is medically ok for rehab. Had major 
>> questions from family, so put this together.
>> 
>> 
>> Here are better images and Jim's actual X-rays. Left hip area fracture. No 
>> actual hip bone, but top Femur where turns to go to connect to pelvis called 
>> hip bone. Three surgical arthroscopic small  cuts - one at top, one part way 
>> down, and one lower. Used short rod - not all the way to knee. Pulled on 
>> leg, rotated till bones knit in place, then this which explains X-rays.  
>> 
>> An intramedullary nail is a metal rod that is inserted into the medullary 
>> cavity of a bone and across the fracture in order to provide a solid support 
>> for the fractured bone. Intramedullary nailing is currently considered the 
>> "gold standard" for treatment of femoral shaft fractures (Rudloff 2009).Feb 
>> 2, 2018  
>> 
>> Nurse also just told me way less pain than with replacement or other hip 
>> area fractures. Reiterated what doc said - best place to break hip if get a 
>> break! You can see from first X-ray how bone at almost 90 degree angle, and 
>> in last one of fixed bone how in correct position. End of anatomy and 
>> surgery lesson ❤️
>> 
>> Sitting in chair today hopefully till after supper!
>> 
>> Just got word got accepted into rehab docs like which is right by hospital 
>> and close to home and docs. Looking up. 
>> 
>> Mimi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ___
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Re: [Texascavers] James Jasek Update

[Leia L. Hill]

Mimi,

I’m so sorry to hear about Jim. That’s dreadful! Y’all are always in my prayers 
and I especially pray for him that he’ll get stronger, fast! 

Please let me know if y’all ever need some company! I’ll gladly come up and 
visit! Just let me know when and I’ll clear my schedule. My number is down 
below if you ever want to get in touch! 

Prayers and hugs!

Leia Hill

(830) 660-5884

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 2, 2022, at 6:31 AM, speodes...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Dear Mimi. Thanks for the report on Jim’s status and broken hip. That’s 
> tough. Wishing you both the best. Maybe I could come up from Georgetown 
> sometime to visit y’all. I would like to help and don’t want to be waited on. 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> William R. (Bill) Elliott
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Mar 2, 2022, at 2:47 AM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> It has been a while. Jim is still hanging in, but weaker physically as I 
> predicted. He will be 81 this year, and was doing great till @ Sunday night. 
> His replaced left knee began to hurt severely when he would get up to go to 
> bed. By Wednesday I had him using his walker in the house, but he was fine on 
> Thursday when I went to work. I got home @ 6:38 and turned into the den after 
> calling hello. He met me with “Hi, Mimi! I am so glad your home! I fell and 
> think I broke my leg!” He was sitting in his recliner with left leg out in 
> front straight out. He kept wanting me to get him up. ( It was a Thursday 
> night when I came home and found him comatose from his stroke too. Not a fun 
> pattern.)
> 
> So 911 and hospital ER. Unfortunately doc there took Jim as weak, old guy who 
> fell. Took scans and X-ray and finally came back and said nothing broken so 
> we can’t admit him and will start wheels turning to get him into rehab. It 
> will take a while. Another doc came on later and I really fussed about his 
> knee - as far as I knew from Jim cause of fall! Another doc, my fussing, PT 
> eval and fact that two men could not get him up got us admitted by noon 
> Friday.
> 
> Due to blood thinner, had to wait till Monday afternoon to aspirate knee. 
> Fluid had blood but no pus. Evidently first thing they look for in replaced 
> joints that suddenly start hurting is infection. So cultures started, but 
> Tuesday morn brought ortho guy saying not enough evidence yet to go in and 
> clean out knee. Scans did not show anything out of place with replacement.
> 
> For some reason they took him back for another X-ray, and results confirmed 
> why he could not move leg and fussed so when turned in bed.  His left hip 
> broken! Turned out ER doc DID NOT x-ray hip, just knee!!! Me and ortho guy 
> not happy, he was apologetic, but let’s get this fixed. He is a trauma bone 
> guy. 
> 
> If you can have a good broken hip, he said Jim did. Top of femur, below ball, 
> and in a small window that can make all the difference. Arthroscopic surgery, 
> 3 small incisions, couple of smaller rods and voila! @ 1:00 tomorrow, and 
> this fix meant to be walked on right away. If all goes well, 2-3 more days in 
> hospital the transfer to rehab.
> 
> I am having deja vu of Bill Russell and Pete Strickland. Jim’s recovery from 
> his stroke event different, and fall due to collapsed knee as far as we can 
> tell by fall site at home. I asked doc if his hip could have been the problem 
> all along, but he said no. We know Jim went down hard on knee, and could have 
> hit hip on very solid side/leg of recliner on way down. We will never know.
> 
> Stats for recovery not helpful on this, so any prayers or positive thoughts 
> would be appreciated. Due to lingering issues from stroke and some other 
> things, doc said if Jim makes his 6 month check up at his office, his chances 
> for survival of more than a year go way up! So goal! A lot up to him though, 
> and me. Lots of hard work ahead for both of us.  I still have to work @ 30 
> hours a week too for normal financial stability. I have always told him I 
> want minimum 50 years, and we are coming up on 47. His mom survived a broken 
> hip and lived to be 103, but had not had a stroke. 
> 
> Hope you are as well as possible, staying safe, and going caving. Wish my 
> post was on a happier note.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Mimi Jasek
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Texascavers] James Jasek Update

[speodesmus]

Dear Mimi. Thanks for the report on Jim’s status and broken hip. That’s tough. 
Wishing you both the best. Maybe I could come up from Georgetown sometime to 
visit y’all. I would like to help and don’t want to be waited on. 

Thanks

William R. (Bill) Elliott
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2022, at 2:47 AM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:

Hello Everyone,

It has been a while. Jim is still hanging in, but weaker physically as I 
predicted. He will be 81 this year, and was doing great till @ Sunday night. 
His replaced left knee began to hurt severely when he would get up to go to 
bed. By Wednesday I had him using his walker in the house, but he was fine on 
Thursday when I went to work. I got home @ 6:38 and turned into the den after 
calling hello. He met me with “Hi, Mimi! I am so glad your home! I fell and 
think I broke my leg!” He was sitting in his recliner with left leg out in 
front straight out. He kept wanting me to get him up. ( It was a Thursday night 
when I came home and found him comatose from his stroke too. Not a fun pattern.)

So 911 and hospital ER. Unfortunately doc there took Jim as weak, old guy who 
fell. Took scans and X-ray and finally came back and said nothing broken so we 
can’t admit him and will start wheels turning to get him into rehab. It will 
take a while. Another doc came on later and I really fussed about his knee - as 
far as I knew from Jim cause of fall! Another doc, my fussing, PT eval and fact 
that two men could not get him up got us admitted by noon Friday.

Due to blood thinner, had to wait till Monday afternoon to aspirate knee. Fluid 
had blood but no pus. Evidently first thing they look for in replaced joints 
that suddenly start hurting is infection. So cultures started, but Tuesday morn 
brought ortho guy saying not enough evidence yet to go in and clean out knee. 
Scans did not show anything out of place with replacement.

For some reason they took him back for another X-ray, and results confirmed why 
he could not move leg and fussed so when turned in bed.  His left hip broken! 
Turned out ER doc DID NOT x-ray hip, just knee!!! Me and ortho guy not happy, 
he was apologetic, but let’s get this fixed. He is a trauma bone guy. 

If you can have a good broken hip, he said Jim did. Top of femur, below ball, 
and in a small window that can make all the difference. Arthroscopic surgery, 3 
small incisions, couple of smaller rods and voila! @ 1:00 tomorrow, and this 
fix meant to be walked on right away. If all goes well, 2-3 more days in 
hospital the transfer to rehab.

I am having deja vu of Bill Russell and Pete Strickland. Jim’s recovery from 
his stroke event different, and fall due to collapsed knee as far as we can 
tell by fall site at home. I asked doc if his hip could have been the problem 
all along, but he said no. We know Jim went down hard on knee, and could have 
hit hip on very solid side/leg of recliner on way down. We will never know.

Stats for recovery not helpful on this, so any prayers or positive thoughts 
would be appreciated. Due to lingering issues from stroke and some other 
things, doc said if Jim makes his 6 month check up at his office, his chances 
for survival of more than a year go way up! So goal! A lot up to him though, 
and me. Lots of hard work ahead for both of us.  I still have to work @ 30 
hours a week too for normal financial stability. I have always told him I want 
minimum 50 years, and we are coming up on 47. His mom survived a broken hip and 
lived to be 103, but had not had a stroke. 

Hope you are as well as possible, staying safe, and going caving. Wish my post 
was on a happier note.

Respectfully,

Mimi Jasek

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Texascavers] A Martian Helictite, maybe?

[Miles Abernathy]

That is one weird formation. Maybe melted sand from a small meteorite that
hit the surface?

Miles

On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 1:10 PM Jon  wrote:

> Check out this formation found on Mars:
>
>
> https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/1029747/?site=msl_source=EarthSky+News_campaign=4debd66ee4-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_02_02_COPY_01_medium=email_term=0_c643945d79-4debd66ee4-395436253_cid=4debd66ee4_eid=6f7a425227#.YhlkFAXoeks
>
>
> JC
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Searching for cavers

[Bill Steele]

David Persha is on Facebook. 

> On Feb 23, 2022, at 9:45 AM, Crash Kennedy  wrote:
> 
> 
> Ben Kim has been living in Belize for years.  He's on Facebook.  His email is 
> ben@esotericvision.com.
> 
> Christa is at chri...@riddington.net.
> 
> Bill Larson lives in Cherokee, and is on Facebook.  His number is 
> 325-248-7191.  Email is cherokeemeadma...@yahoo.com.
> 
> Greyson is also on Facebook, and can be reached at 832-283-3773 or 
> greys...@gmail.com.
> 
> I don't have information on the others.
> 
> Jim
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 1:33 PM  wrote:
>> Texas cavers,
>> 
>> I am attempting to contact some old friends.  If you have telephone or 
>> e-mail information on any  of these cavers,
>> please contact me at texascavescedar park @aol.com
>> 
>> Ed Jacoby
>> Anne Jacoby
>> Ben Kim
>> Christa Riddington - McClelan 
>> Bill Larsen
>> Darrell Rees
>> David Persha 
>> Greyson Knapp 
>> 
>>Also, if there is anyone interested in contacting me, please contact me a 
>> texascavescedarp...@aol.com  
>> 
>>Thank you and I wish the The Texas Cavers, the best of all worlds, both 
>> above ground and underground,   Mike Walsh
>> ___
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Re: [Texascavers] Searching for cavers

[Crash Kennedy]

Ben Kim has been living in Belize for years.  He's on Facebook.  His email
is ben@esotericvision.com.

Christa is at chri...@riddington.net.

Bill Larson lives in Cherokee, and is on Facebook.  His number is
325-248-7191.  Email is cherokeemeadma...@yahoo.com.

Greyson is also on Facebook, and can be reached at 832-283-3773 or
greys...@gmail.com.

I don't have information on the others.

Jim

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 1:33 PM  wrote:

> Texas cavers,
>
> I am attempting to contact some old friends.  If you have telephone or
> e-mail information on any  of these cavers,
> please contact me at texascavescedar park @aol.com
>
> Ed Jacoby
> Anne Jacoby
> Ben Kim
> Christa Riddington - McClelan
> Bill Larsen
> Darrell Rees
> David Persha
> Greyson Knapp
>
>Also, if there is anyone interested in contacting me, please contact me
> a texascavescedarp...@aol.com
>
>Thank you and I wish the The Texas Cavers, the best of all worlds, both
> above ground and underground,   Mike Walsh
> ___
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Re: [Texascavers] TSA Spring Convention - Call for Presenters

[Bill Bentley]

Those stairs.   Ugh

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 4:54 PM Kris Pena  wrote:

> Bill,
>
> It will be at Cave Without A Name outside of Boerne. We have the full
> campground reserved for the weekend as well as the event space inside the
> cave to view presentations.
>
> Kris
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 4:52 PM Bill Bentley  wrote:
>
>> Where is this happening?
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 2:05 PM Kris Pena  wrote:
>>
>>> The TSA Spring Convention is happening May 20-22 this year and I'm
>>> putting out the call for presenters!
>>>
>>> Have something you'd love to tell your fellow cavers about? Or maybe a
>>> workshop you've dreamed of giving? We're looking for people to give talks
>>> and lead workshops at this year's convention.
>>>
>>> Do you think maybe you have an idea, but you're worried it's not
>>> relevant? Cavers have wide and varied interests. If it's something you
>>> think you might want to hear about, chances are your caver friends might
>>> too.
>>>
>>> Here's some ideas of subjects that you might not have thought about:
>>> * Trip Reports of adventures to new and interesting places
>>> * Trip Reports of new adventures to places we all know and love
>>> * Hydrology - water flowing through caves, water in the aquifer, water
>>> on the surface
>>> * Geology - geology in caves, rock formations, the limestone of Texas
>>> * Biology - animals that spend their whole lives in caves, about animals
>>> that make their homes in caves some of the time (raccoons, snakes,
>>> crickets), things living and growing in caves that aren't animals
>>> * Bats - bat science, bat biology, diseases spread by bats, diseases not
>>> spread by bats, WNS updates, bat rescue, bat conservation
>>> * Cave technology - lighting, headlights, survey instruments,
>>> environmental sensors
>>> * Outdoor enthusiast topics - hiking, flora and fauna identification,
>>> animal tracks, things seen on hikes to caves
>>> * Cave Rescue - cave rescue reports or topics related to rescue
>>> * Vertical techniques
>>> * Dark Spaces
>>> * Cave mapping - classic techniques, modern techniques, future techniques
>>>
>>> Maybe you still don't think you have something to talk about, but you
>>> know someone else would be perfect? Let me know who and I'll chase them
>>> down.
>>>
>>> Contact me directly if you or someone you know has something to teach us
>>> about: vicechair...@cavetexas.org
>>> ___
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>>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
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>>>
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Re: [Texascavers] TSA Spring Convention - Call for Presenters

[Kris Pena]

Bill,

It will be at Cave Without A Name outside of Boerne. We have the full
campground reserved for the weekend as well as the event space inside the
cave to view presentations.

Kris

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 4:52 PM Bill Bentley  wrote:

> Where is this happening?
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 2:05 PM Kris Pena  wrote:
>
>> The TSA Spring Convention is happening May 20-22 this year and I'm
>> putting out the call for presenters!
>>
>> Have something you'd love to tell your fellow cavers about? Or maybe a
>> workshop you've dreamed of giving? We're looking for people to give talks
>> and lead workshops at this year's convention.
>>
>> Do you think maybe you have an idea, but you're worried it's not
>> relevant? Cavers have wide and varied interests. If it's something you
>> think you might want to hear about, chances are your caver friends might
>> too.
>>
>> Here's some ideas of subjects that you might not have thought about:
>> * Trip Reports of adventures to new and interesting places
>> * Trip Reports of new adventures to places we all know and love
>> * Hydrology - water flowing through caves, water in the aquifer, water on
>> the surface
>> * Geology - geology in caves, rock formations, the limestone of Texas
>> * Biology - animals that spend their whole lives in caves, about animals
>> that make their homes in caves some of the time (raccoons, snakes,
>> crickets), things living and growing in caves that aren't animals
>> * Bats - bat science, bat biology, diseases spread by bats, diseases not
>> spread by bats, WNS updates, bat rescue, bat conservation
>> * Cave technology - lighting, headlights, survey instruments,
>> environmental sensors
>> * Outdoor enthusiast topics - hiking, flora and fauna identification,
>> animal tracks, things seen on hikes to caves
>> * Cave Rescue - cave rescue reports or topics related to rescue
>> * Vertical techniques
>> * Dark Spaces
>> * Cave mapping - classic techniques, modern techniques, future techniques
>>
>> Maybe you still don't think you have something to talk about, but you
>> know someone else would be perfect? Let me know who and I'll chase them
>> down.
>>
>> Contact me directly if you or someone you know has something to teach us
>> about: vicechair...@cavetexas.org
>> ___
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>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>>
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Re: [Texascavers] TSA Spring Convention - Call for Presenters

[Bill Bentley]

Where is this happening?

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 2:05 PM Kris Pena  wrote:

> The TSA Spring Convention is happening May 20-22 this year and I'm putting
> out the call for presenters!
>
> Have something you'd love to tell your fellow cavers about? Or maybe a
> workshop you've dreamed of giving? We're looking for people to give talks
> and lead workshops at this year's convention.
>
> Do you think maybe you have an idea, but you're worried it's not relevant?
> Cavers have wide and varied interests. If it's something you think you
> might want to hear about, chances are your caver friends might too.
>
> Here's some ideas of subjects that you might not have thought about:
> * Trip Reports of adventures to new and interesting places
> * Trip Reports of new adventures to places we all know and love
> * Hydrology - water flowing through caves, water in the aquifer, water on
> the surface
> * Geology - geology in caves, rock formations, the limestone of Texas
> * Biology - animals that spend their whole lives in caves, about animals
> that make their homes in caves some of the time (raccoons, snakes,
> crickets), things living and growing in caves that aren't animals
> * Bats - bat science, bat biology, diseases spread by bats, diseases not
> spread by bats, WNS updates, bat rescue, bat conservation
> * Cave technology - lighting, headlights, survey instruments,
> environmental sensors
> * Outdoor enthusiast topics - hiking, flora and fauna identification,
> animal tracks, things seen on hikes to caves
> * Cave Rescue - cave rescue reports or topics related to rescue
> * Vertical techniques
> * Dark Spaces
> * Cave mapping - classic techniques, modern techniques, future techniques
>
> Maybe you still don't think you have something to talk about, but you know
> someone else would be perfect? Let me know who and I'll chase them down.
>
> Contact me directly if you or someone you know has something to teach us
> about: vicechair...@cavetexas.org
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>
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Re: [Texascavers] TSA Spring Convention - Call for Presenters

[Bill Steele]

Hi Kris, 

You’ve got me down to give a presentation, right? It’ll be titled: “Proyecto 
Espeleologico Sistema Huautla (PESH) - the 2022 Expedition”. 

Bill Steele 


> On Feb 22, 2022, at 2:05 PM, Kris Pena  wrote:
> 
> 
> The TSA Spring Convention is happening May 20-22 this year and I'm putting 
> out the call for presenters!
> 
> Have something you'd love to tell your fellow cavers about? Or maybe a 
> workshop you've dreamed of giving? We're looking for people to give talks and 
> lead workshops at this year's convention. 
> 
> Do you think maybe you have an idea, but you're worried it's not relevant? 
> Cavers have wide and varied interests. If it's something you think you might 
> want to hear about, chances are your caver friends might too. 
> 
> Here's some ideas of subjects that you might not have thought about:
> * Trip Reports of adventures to new and interesting places
> * Trip Reports of new adventures to places we all know and love
> *  Hydrology - water flowing through caves, water in the aquifer, water on 
> the surface
> * Geology - geology in caves, rock formations, the limestone of Texas
> * Biology - animals that spend their whole lives in caves, about animals that 
> make their homes in caves some of the time (raccoons, snakes, crickets), 
> things living and growing in caves that aren't animals
> * Bats - bat science, bat biology, diseases spread by bats, diseases not 
> spread by bats, WNS updates, bat rescue, bat conservation
> * Cave technology - lighting, headlights, survey instruments, environmental 
> sensors
> * Outdoor enthusiast topics - hiking, flora and fauna identification, animal 
> tracks, things seen on hikes to caves
> * Cave Rescue - cave rescue reports or topics related to rescue
> * Vertical techniques
> * Dark Spaces
> * Cave mapping - classic techniques, modern techniques, future techniques
> 
> Maybe you still don't think you have something to talk about, but you know 
> someone else would be perfect? Let me know who and I'll chase them down.
> 
> Contact me directly if you or someone you know has something to teach us 
> about: vicechair...@cavetexas.org
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Re: [Pajarito Grotto] Fw: [Sandia Grotto]: Underground comparison video

[Mark Minton]

That's a good point, George, although depth below the entrance is a
practical measure for cavers because that is how far they actually travel,
no matter how far below the surface they are.

I disagree with Mary, though. I think they do intend to portray how far
below ground the deep caves and mines are, because they present them on a
scale starting with the shallowest spaces and progressing to the deepest,
always moving deeper into the earth. That's true for boreholes and wells,
but not for other underground spaces with large lateral extents. They
aren't really comparable in that way.

Mark

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 1:34 PM George Veni  wrote:

> For the reasons Mark described, I like the term “vertical extent” instead
> of depth. I’ve heard people argue loudly that Kazamura is NOT over 1,000 m
> deep, but no one can deny that it has a vertical extent of more than 1,000
> m.
>
>
>
> George
>
>
>
> 
>
> George  Veni, PhD
>
> Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
>
> and
>
> President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)
>
>
>
> *NCKRI address (primary)*
>
> 400-1 Cascades Avenue
>
> Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
>
> Office: +575-887-5517
>
> Mobile: +210-863-5919
>
> Fax: +575-887-5523
>
> gv...@nckri.org
>
> www.nckri.org
>
>
>
> *UIS address*
>
> Titov trg 2
>
> Postojna, 6230 Slovenia
>
> www.uis-speleo.org
>
> www.iyck2021.org
>
>
>
> *From:* 'Mary Thiesse' via Southwestern Cavers of the National
> Speleological Society 
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 11:07 AM
> *To:* John Cochran ; Mark Minton <
> mamintonca...@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* pajaritogro...@googlegroups.com; Southwestern Cavers of the
> National Speleological Society ; Sandia
> Grotto <
> sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com>;
> texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Subject:* [SWR CAVERS] Re: [Pajarito Grotto] Fw: [Sandia Grotto]:
> Underground comparison video
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I don’t think this video was meant to be an exacting measurement but
> simply a relative reference for different depths of caves, mines etc.
> according to claimed depth of said cave, mine…..
>
>
>
> Mary
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
>
> On Monday, February 14, 2022, 10:49 AM, John Cochran 
> wrote:
>
> that was worth watching
>
>
>
> but they missed our very own WIPP at ~  -655 m
>
>
>
> cheers
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 8:25 AM Mark Minton 
> wrote:
>
> Actually, several of the caves (and probably some of the mines) are
> misrepresented. The bottoms of very few deep caves are as far below the
> surface directly above as their depth indicates, because caves don't go
> straight down and the surface also goes up and down. Many deep caves have
> entrances high on a mountain side and passages that run downslope. Kazumura
> is an extreme example, but other deep caves like Huautla and Cheve are
> similar. The surface above the deep point is often hundreds of meters lower
> than at the entrance. One example I know of that really is as far below the
> surface as its depth indicates is Ocotempa in Mexico. It is over 1000 m
> deep and goes down like a corkscrew. The bottom is only 50 m offset from
> the entrance, although the passage does wander farther away partway down
> before turning back at the end.
>
>
>
> A related question is how deep you are in a cave whose entrance is at the
> bottom of a cliff. As soon as you go inside, the surface is way above, even
> if the cave is horizontal. Of course, cave depth below the surface isn't as
> meaningful as how far you have to travel to get to the bottom. That's where
> all the work is.
>
>
>
> Mark Minton
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 5:40 PM John Lyles  wrote:
>
> Its a cool animated video. Even up to date. Kazumura Cave is the only
> misrepresentation, as the cave is actually not so deep underground, but
> goes a long distance down flow down the mountain.
>
> jtml
>
> On 2/12/22 3:21 PM, 'Mary Thiesse' via Pajarito Grotto wrote:
>
> Lee Skinner shared this earlier and I thought I would pass it on to
> Pajarito grotto as well. Interesting depth comparisons.
>
>
>
> Mary
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 11:45 AM, Lee H. Skinner
>   wrote:
>
> An interesting video about underground places -- lots of caves mentioned.
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRBYk2FO5QE
>
>
>
> Lee
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] [Pajarito Grotto] Fw: [Sandia Grotto]: Underground comparison video

[Mark Minton]

Actually, several of the caves (and probably some of the mines) are
misrepresented. The bottoms of very few deep caves are as far below the
surface directly above as their depth indicates, because caves don't go
straight down and the surface also goes up and down. Many deep caves have
entrances high on a mountain side and passages that run downslope. Kazumura
is an extreme example, but other deep caves like Huautla and Cheve are
similar. The surface above the deep point is often hundreds of meters lower
than at the entrance. One example I know of that really is as far below the
surface as its depth indicates is Ocotempa in Mexico. It is over 1000 m
deep and goes down like a corkscrew. The bottom is only 50 m offset from
the entrance, although the passage does wander farther away partway down
before turning back at the end.

A related question is how deep you are in a cave whose entrance is at the
bottom of a cliff. As soon as you go inside, the surface is way above, even
if the cave is horizontal. Of course, cave depth below the surface isn't as
meaningful as how far you have to travel to get to the bottom. That's where
all the work is.

Mark Minton

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 5:40 PM John Lyles  wrote:

> Its a cool animated video. Even up to date. Kazumura Cave is the only
> misrepresentation, as the cave is actually not so deep underground, but
> goes a long distance down flow down the mountain.
>
> jtml
> On 2/12/22 3:21 PM, 'Mary Thiesse' via Pajarito Grotto wrote:
>
> Lee Skinner shared this earlier and I thought I would pass it on to
> Pajarito grotto as well. Interesting depth comparisons.
>
> Mary
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 11:45 AM, Lee H. Skinner
>   wrote:
>
> An interesting video about underground places -- lots of caves mentioned.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRBYk2FO5QE
>
> Lee
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

[Mark Minton]

We haven't found the DistoX2 to be particularly vulnerable to flooding.
They are water resistant, and we carry them in the same 1015 Pelican box
that the BRIC4 is built in, so they're only out when actually taking a
shot. We've used them extensively in Warm River Cave in Virginia, which is
similar to Honey Creek in terms of being wet. I recently got a prototype
waterproof housing for the DistoX2 to test, but haven't tried it yet. It
will supposedly allow the Disto to be operated while still inside the
housing.

Of course, any compass will have to be recalibrated when changing from one
location to another that is significantly different magnetically, but in
practice DistoX2s seem to keep calibration over relatively long distances.
Mine has stayed within spec (+/- 2 degrees) when traveling between
Carlsbad, NM, Oaxaca, Mexico, and Virginia / West Virginia. Nevertheless we
typically recalibrate at the beginning of a project in a new area, just to
be sure.

My main complaint about the BRIC4 is the cost. It's $200 more than a
DistoX2, although of course the latter are no longer being made. :-(

Mark Minton

On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 7:14 PM Diana Tomchick <
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:

> You may be able to equal the results of the Disto-X2 with the new BRIC4,
> yet find it more useful because you don’t have to worry about the BRIC4
> dying when it is accidentally dropped into a pool of water. See Aaron
> Bird’s evaluation (from the 2021 NSS Convention) of the BRIC4 as a cave
> survey device (he compares it to the Disto-X2).
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCi35qMwDQI
>
> I’ve found the BRIC4 is relatively easy to calibrate compared to the
> Disto-X2, but it needs to be re-calibrated when you move to different
> locations due to local magnetic field changes. Fortunately it tells you
> (through it’s error message code) that’s the problem, and re-calibration is
> done internally on the device so you can do it prior to a day of cave
> survey.
>
> https://ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/calculators/magcalc.shtml?#declination
>
> Diana
>
> On Feb 10, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Mark Minton  wrote:
>
> If your accuracy was less than 1%, I think you had a problem! ;-)
>
> Brunton accuracy was pretty good, but you can't beat properly calibrated
> Disto-X2s with front and backsights. I've done several surveys with less
> than 0.5% loop-closure error, and a couple of large loops (over 2000 feet)
> had 0.1% error!
>
> Mark Minton
>
> On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 5:58 PM Reddell, James R <
> jreddell.ca...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>> I mapped all of Caverns of Sonora up to the pit with a
>> Brunton on a tripod and we consistently got less than 1%
>> accuracy in short and long loops. I also got very good accuracy
>> in some long surveys in Yucatan caves.
>>
>> James
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Texascavers  on behalf of
>> speodes...@gmail.com 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 4:40 PM
>> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited
>>
>> Thanks for leveling with us, Dwight.
>>
>> Doing the inclinations was hard going handheld. All I ever owned were two
>> Army Bruntons. Suuntos were a big change!
>>
>> And thanks to Carl for his good article.
>>
>> William R. (Bill) Elliott
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2022, at 4:34 PM, Dwight Deal  wrote:
>>
>> Carl Kunath wrote an excellent historical article on the use of the old
>> Brunton compass in cave surveying.  Unfortunately, the major source of
>> error was not clearly noted.
>>
>> That error is not having the Brunton as near perfectly level as possible
>> when you make the sighting.  A tripod helps if you pay attention, but it is
>> possible to make accurate sights hand-held as well.
>>
>> I taught Herb Conn how to survey with a Brunton in 1959, and in many
>> miles of hand-held Jewel Cave survey loops our error was consistently on
>> the order of ½ of 1%.  Keeping it level was the key. Considerable
>> contortions were sometimes required of the surveyor, however.
>>
>> DirtDoc
>>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

[Mark Minton]

James,

I was poking fun at you. I think you meant your error was less than 1%, not
your accuracy. :-)

Mark

On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 6:20 PM Reddell, James R <
jreddell.ca...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:

> I may be in error, and they may have been better than that.
> That was a very long time ago.
>
> James
> --
> *From:* Texascavers  on behalf of
> Mark Minton 
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 5:17 PM
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited
>
> If your accuracy was less than 1%, I think you had a problem! ;-)
>
> Brunton accuracy was pretty good, but you can't beat properly calibrated
> Disto-X2s with front and backsights. I've done several surveys with less
> than 0.5% loop-closure error, and a couple of large loops (over 2000 feet)
> had 0.1% error!
>
> Mark Minton
>
> On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 5:58 PM Reddell, James R <
> jreddell.ca...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> I mapped all of Caverns of Sonora up to the pit with a
> Brunton on a tripod and we consistently got less than 1%
> accuracy in short and long loops. I also got very good accuracy
> in some long surveys in Yucatan caves.
>
> James
>
> --
> *From:* Texascavers  on behalf of
> speodes...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 4:40 PM
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited
>
> Thanks for leveling with us, Dwight.
>
> Doing the inclinations was hard going handheld. All I ever owned were two
> Army Bruntons. Suuntos were a big change!
>
> And thanks to Carl for his good article.
>
> William R. (Bill) Elliott
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 10, 2022, at 4:34 PM, Dwight Deal  wrote:
>
> Carl Kunath wrote an excellent historical article on the use of the old
> Brunton compass in cave surveying.  Unfortunately, the major source of
> error was not clearly noted.
>
> That error is not having the Brunton as near perfectly level as possible
> when you make the sighting.  A tripod helps if you pay attention, but it is
> possible to make accurate sights hand-held as well.
>
> I taught Herb Conn how to survey with a Brunton in 1959, and in many miles
> of hand-held Jewel Cave survey loops our error was consistently on the
> order of ½ of 1%.  Keeping it level was the key. Considerable contortions
> were sometimes required of the surveyor, however.
>
> DirtDoc
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

[Diana Tomchick]

You may be able to equal the results of the Disto-X2 with the new BRIC4, yet 
find it more useful because you don’t have to worry about the BRIC4 dying when 
it is accidentally dropped into a pool of water. See Aaron Bird’s evaluation 
(from the 2021 NSS Convention) of the BRIC4 as a cave survey device (he 
compares it to the Disto-X2).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCi35qMwDQI

I’ve found the BRIC4 is relatively easy to calibrate compared to the Disto-X2, 
but it needs to be re-calibrated when you move to different locations due to 
local magnetic field changes. Fortunately it tells you (through it’s error 
message code) that’s the problem, and re-calibration is done internally on the 
device so you can do it prior to a day of cave survey.

https://ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/calculators/magcalc.shtml?#declination

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
UT Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu<mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu>
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)




On Feb 10, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Mark Minton 
mailto:mamintonca...@gmail.com>> wrote:


EXTERNAL MAIL

If your accuracy was less than 1%, I think you had a problem! ;-)

Brunton accuracy was pretty good, but you can't beat properly calibrated 
Disto-X2s with front and backsights. I've done several surveys with less than 
0.5% loop-closure error, and a couple of large loops (over 2000 feet) had 0.1% 
error!

Mark Minton

On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 5:58 PM Reddell, James R 
mailto:jreddell.ca...@austin.utexas.edu>> 
wrote:
I mapped all of Caverns of Sonora up to the pit with a
Brunton on a tripod and we consistently got less than 1%
accuracy in short and long loops. I also got very good accuracy
in some long surveys in Yucatan caves.

James


From: Texascavers 
mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com>>
 on behalf of speodes...@gmail.com<mailto:speodes...@gmail.com> 
mailto:speodes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 4:40 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com> 
mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

Thanks for leveling with us, Dwight.

Doing the inclinations was hard going handheld. All I ever owned were two Army 
Bruntons. Suuntos were a big change!

And thanks to Carl for his good article.

William R. (Bill) Elliott
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2022, at 4:34 PM, Dwight Deal 
mailto:dirt...@comcast.net>> wrote:

Carl Kunath wrote an excellent historical article on the use of the old Brunton 
compass in cave surveying.  Unfortunately, the major source of error was not 
clearly noted.

That error is not having the Brunton as near perfectly level as possible when 
you make the sighting.  A tripod helps if you pay attention, but it is possible 
to make accurate sights hand-held as well.

I taught Herb Conn how to survey with a Brunton in 1959, and in many miles of 
hand-held Jewel Cave survey loops our error was consistently on the order of ½ 
of 1%.  Keeping it level was the key. Considerable contortions were sometimes 
required of the surveyor, however.

DirtDoc

CAUTION: This email originated from outside UTSW. Please be cautious of links 
or attachments, and validate the sender's email address before replying.

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Medical Center

The future of medicine, today.
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Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

[Reddell, James R]

I may be in error, and they may have been better than that.
That was a very long time ago.

James

From: Texascavers  on behalf of Mark 
Minton 
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 5:17 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

If your accuracy was less than 1%, I think you had a problem! ;-)

Brunton accuracy was pretty good, but you can't beat properly calibrated 
Disto-X2s with front and backsights. I've done several surveys with less than 
0.5% loop-closure error, and a couple of large loops (over 2000 feet) had 0.1% 
error!

Mark Minton

On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 5:58 PM Reddell, James R 
mailto:jreddell.ca...@austin.utexas.edu>> 
wrote:
I mapped all of Caverns of Sonora up to the pit with a
Brunton on a tripod and we consistently got less than 1%
accuracy in short and long loops. I also got very good accuracy
in some long surveys in Yucatan caves.

James


From: Texascavers 
mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com>>
 on behalf of speodes...@gmail.com<mailto:speodes...@gmail.com> 
mailto:speodes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 4:40 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com> 
mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

Thanks for leveling with us, Dwight.

Doing the inclinations was hard going handheld. All I ever owned were two Army 
Bruntons. Suuntos were a big change!

And thanks to Carl for his good article.

William R. (Bill) Elliott
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2022, at 4:34 PM, Dwight Deal 
mailto:dirt...@comcast.net>> wrote:

Carl Kunath wrote an excellent historical article on the use of the old Brunton 
compass in cave surveying.  Unfortunately, the major source of error was not 
clearly noted.

That error is not having the Brunton as near perfectly level as possible when 
you make the sighting.  A tripod helps if you pay attention, but it is possible 
to make accurate sights hand-held as well.

I taught Herb Conn how to survey with a Brunton in 1959, and in many miles of 
hand-held Jewel Cave survey loops our error was consistently on the order of ½ 
of 1%.  Keeping it level was the key. Considerable contortions were sometimes 
required of the surveyor, however.

DirtDoc
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Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

[Mark Minton]

If your accuracy was less than 1%, I think you had a problem! ;-)

Brunton accuracy was pretty good, but you can't beat properly calibrated
Disto-X2s with front and backsights. I've done several surveys with less
than 0.5% loop-closure error, and a couple of large loops (over 2000 feet)
had 0.1% error!

Mark Minton

On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 5:58 PM Reddell, James R <
jreddell.ca...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:

> I mapped all of Caverns of Sonora up to the pit with a
> Brunton on a tripod and we consistently got less than 1%
> accuracy in short and long loops. I also got very good accuracy
> in some long surveys in Yucatan caves.
>
> James
>
> --
> *From:* Texascavers  on behalf of
> speodes...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 4:40 PM
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited
>
> Thanks for leveling with us, Dwight.
>
> Doing the inclinations was hard going handheld. All I ever owned were two
> Army Bruntons. Suuntos were a big change!
>
> And thanks to Carl for his good article.
>
> William R. (Bill) Elliott
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 10, 2022, at 4:34 PM, Dwight Deal  wrote:
>
> Carl Kunath wrote an excellent historical article on the use of the old
> Brunton compass in cave surveying.  Unfortunately, the major source of
> error was not clearly noted.
>
> That error is not having the Brunton as near perfectly level as possible
> when you make the sighting.  A tripod helps if you pay attention, but it is
> possible to make accurate sights hand-held as well.
>
> I taught Herb Conn how to survey with a Brunton in 1959, and in many miles
> of hand-held Jewel Cave survey loops our error was consistently on the
> order of ½ of 1%.  Keeping it level was the key. Considerable contortions
> were sometimes required of the surveyor, however.
>
> DirtDoc
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

[Reddell, James R]

I mapped all of Caverns of Sonora up to the pit with a
Brunton on a tripod and we consistently got less than 1%
accuracy in short and long loops. I also got very good accuracy
in some long surveys in Yucatan caves.

James


From: Texascavers  on behalf of 
speodes...@gmail.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 4:40 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

Thanks for leveling with us, Dwight.

Doing the inclinations was hard going handheld. All I ever owned were two Army 
Bruntons. Suuntos were a big change!

And thanks to Carl for his good article.

William R. (Bill) Elliott
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2022, at 4:34 PM, Dwight Deal  wrote:



Carl Kunath wrote an excellent historical article on the use of the old Brunton 
compass in cave surveying.  Unfortunately, the major source of error was not 
clearly noted.



That error is not having the Brunton as near perfectly level as possible when 
you make the sighting.  A tripod helps if you pay attention, but it is possible 
to make accurate sights hand-held as well.



I taught Herb Conn how to survey with a Brunton in 1959, and in many miles of 
hand-held Jewel Cave survey loops our error was consistently on the order of ½ 
of 1%.  Keeping it level was the key. Considerable contortions were sometimes 
required of the surveyor, however.



DirtDoc



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Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Revisited

[speodesmus]

Thanks for leveling with us, Dwight. 

Doing the inclinations was hard going handheld. All I ever owned were two Army 
Bruntons. Suuntos were a big change!

And thanks to Carl for his good article. 

William R. (Bill) Elliott
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2022, at 4:34 PM, Dwight Deal  wrote:



Carl Kunath wrote an excellent historical article on the use of the old Brunton 
compass in cave surveying.  Unfortunately, the major source of error was not 
clearly noted. 



That error is not having the Brunton as near perfectly level as possible when 
you make the sighting.  A tripod helps if you pay attention, but it is possible 
to make accurate sights hand-held as well. 



I taught Herb Conn how to survey with a Brunton in 1959, and in many miles of 
hand-held Jewel Cave survey loops our error was consistently on the order of ½ 
of 1%.  Keeping it level was the key. Considerable contortions were sometimes 
required of the surveyor, however.



DirtDoc



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Re: [Texascavers] Volunteer Opportunities for Texas Hydro Geo Workshop- April 1-3

[Mark]

Geary:

I had planned on volunteering for this, but it turns out that is a HCSNA karst 
project weekend. Having worked there for several years as a volunteer and 
encouraging Marvin to take on that additional responsibility a couple years 
ago, I feel I need to make that event my first priority. Maybe next year!

Mark Ross

From: Geary Schindel 
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 12:50 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com ; Kori Dunaway (koriduna...@yahoo.com) ; Geary 
Schindel 
Subject: [Texascavers] Volunteer Opportunities for Texas Hydro Geo Workshop- 
April 1-3

Folks,

We're working on the 7th Texas Hydro Geo Workshop and wanted to ask for 
volunteers to help staff the event and also help with modules. The workshop is 
a 501c3 corporation. 

So, if you're not familiar with the Texas Hydro Geo Workshop, go to the web 
page and take a look. This will be the 7th workshop we've held and it attracts 
people from across Texas and we've even had people from as far away as New 
Mexico, Oklahoma, New York, Florida, and even Brazil, Mexico, and Turkey. 

Texas Hydro Geo Workshop http://hydrogeoworkshop.org/ 

The workshop is an opportunity for participants to be introduced to and sharpen 
their skills in collecting and analyzing field data field. This is an "Outdoor" 
oriented event with modules ranging from surface geophysics, collection of 
water samples, stream gauging, biologic inventories and collecting, tracer 
testing, caving, etc.  We expect to have about 40 modules at the workshop 
ranging in length from 1 to 6 hours.   

We expect about 350 people to attend. Most will be geology, hydrology, 
engineering, environmental science, and biology college students. However, we 
get a number of folks from the public that also attend and either help with the 
event or participate in the modules.

As volunteers, you get into the event for free. We'll expect you to work in 
your assigned areas which may range from setting up and tearing down the event, 
serving food, helping set up modules, help with registration, etc. When you're 
not working (which is most of the time), you're welcome to attend the modules.

We'll also provide you with breakfast Saturday and Sunday, dinner Saturday 
night, T-shirt, and camping, keynote speaker (Dr. George Veni) and other 
freebies we can acquire.  

If you would like to help present a module, please send me a note and let me 
know what you're interested in. You can look at the web page and download the 
program guide from the 2019 event and you'll get an idea of the modules 
presented.

Kori Dunaway is our Volunteer Coordinate so feel free to contact her to sign up.

Thanks,

Geary Schindel, P.G.
Co-Chair









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Re: [Texascavers] Deep Cave claustrophobia video :

[Miles Abernathy]

Do I remember, from long ago, an entrance similar to that in the Wimberley
/ Fischers Store area? It had a wider entrance, but still narrow.

On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 2:58 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> Or nephews or skinny newbies! Lol
>
> Mimi Jasek
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 5, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Amy Jasek  wrote:
>
> And here I thought those kind of holes were reserved only for cavers’
> children! 浪
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 5, 2022, at 7:34 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Yep, it hit twitter pretty hard Tuesday and Wednesday of this week too.
>
> Damn crazy cavers!
>
> Joe Ranzau
> 210.289.6839
>
> On Feb 5, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Jerry  wrote:
>
> 
> This video has gone somewhat viral on the internet : Ethan at Deep Cave.
>
>
> https://www.tiktok.com/foryou?is_copy_url=1_from_webapp=v1_id=7041043980124949765#/@stickfigureboy99/video/7041043980124949765
>
> Jerry Atkinson.
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Re: [Texascavers] Deep Cave claustrophobia video :

[Mimi Jasek]

Or nephews or skinny newbies! Lol

Mimi Jasek

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Amy Jasek  wrote:
> 
> And here I thought those kind of holes were reserved only for cavers’ 
> children! 浪
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 7:34 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Yep, it hit twitter pretty hard Tuesday and Wednesday of this week too. 
>> 
>> Damn crazy cavers!
>> 
>> Joe Ranzau
>> 210.289.6839
>> 
>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Jerry  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This video has gone somewhat viral on the internet : Ethan at Deep Cave. 
>>> 
>>> https://www.tiktok.com/foryou?is_copy_url=1_from_webapp=v1_id=7041043980124949765#/@stickfigureboy99/video/7041043980124949765
>>> 
>>> Jerry Atkinson.
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Re: [Texascavers] Deep Cave claustrophobia video :

[Amy Jasek]

And here I thought those kind of holes were reserved only for cavers’ children! 
浪

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 7:34 AM, jran...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Yep, it hit twitter pretty hard Tuesday and Wednesday of this week too. 
> 
> Damn crazy cavers!
> 
> Joe Ranzau
> 210.289.6839
> 
>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Jerry  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> This video has gone somewhat viral on the internet : Ethan at Deep Cave. 
>> 
>> https://www.tiktok.com/foryou?is_copy_url=1_from_webapp=v1_id=7041043980124949765#/@stickfigureboy99/video/7041043980124949765
>> 
>> Jerry Atkinson.
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Re: [Texascavers] Deep Cave claustrophobia video :

[jranzau]

Yep, it hit twitter pretty hard Tuesday and Wednesday of this week too. 

Damn crazy cavers!

Joe Ranzau
210.289.6839

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Jerry  wrote:
> 
> 
> This video has gone somewhat viral on the internet : Ethan at Deep Cave. 
> 
> https://www.tiktok.com/foryou?is_copy_url=1_from_webapp=v1_id=7041043980124949765#/@stickfigureboy99/video/7041043980124949765
> 
> Jerry Atkinson.
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Re: [Texascavers] Groundhog Day

[Sheryl Rieck]

This cracked me up!

Sheryl Rieck
sheryl.ri...@gmail.com

"You can't always get what you want but if you try sometime, you just might 
find you get what you need" Rolling Stones

> On Feb 2, 2022, at 1:35 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> 
> Every February 2 -- the halfway point between the winter solstice and
> spring equinox -- a bleary-eyed groundhog is hoisted from its burrow
> into the daylight in towns across the United States and Canada. If its
> human handler proclaims that the rodent sees its shadow (as Punxsutawney
> Phil did this year), then six more weeks of winter await; if it doesn't,
> spring will come early -- or so the tradition goes.
> 
> But we don't need this groundhog's communicated advice!  At 7:25 am on
> February 2 in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania, determine whether or not it is
> cloudy or clear. If the sun is shining, then we'll have an early Spring.
> If clouds obscure the sun, we'll have six more weeks of Winter.
> 
> We have therefore eliminated one link in the chain of events that
> previously determined this prediction. We have also eliminated the false
> positive in case Phil is too sleepy to notice his shadow (he may be
> looking in the wrong direction), or even a false negative if someone is
> trying to get a better observation by shining a bright light upon the
> creature on a dark cloudy morning where he might see his shadow from the
> artificial light source.
> 
> Lee Skinner, not a meteorologist nor an animal behaviorist
> 
> 
> (Not off topic, as Phil's burrow might be considered to be a cave by small 
> cavers)
> 
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] Suuntos

[Mimi Jasek]

My intention Jim. If done before he is gone one day, it will be what we or I 
don’t want to keep - or Amy - for purely sentimental reasons. He has lately 
been reading some of the old TC bound volumes, as they are right where he can 
reach them in one of our many bookcases by his chair. A wealth of material. I 
asked him about all his survey books this morning - as I can’t imagine him 
throwing them away! - but except for the last one he was working out of on his 
last survey trip, he does not remember ☹️ More hide and seek work for me. Just 
did all we could to prevent his stroke, but not everything can be controlled - 
or fixed. He will be 81 this year.

I will stay in touch, as I am not getting any younger either, and do not think 
it fair to leave all this to our daughter  She just visits our museum/library, 
 no longer lives in it full time  Her friends growing up used to think it was 
the neatest place, for none of them lived in anything like this! They are the 
ones who first said it reminded them of a museum! To us, it was just a normal 
home! Lol But then, Waco is not a haven for cavers!

Mimi

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 1, 2022, at 8:46 AM, Jim Kennedy  wrote:
> 
> Mimi, Geary had a good suggestion about donating a piece of gear to the NSS 
> Museum. But if you ever decide to find a forever home for the rest of Jim’s 
> (and your) caving books, equipment, survey notes, and other paraphernalia, 
> don’t forget that the Texas Speleological Survey is the state’s Cave Archive, 
> and also has a nice collection of historical memorabilia, soon to be 
> displayed in our new headquarters at the Texas Speleology Center. While we 
> appreciate ALL donations, the most important are those for which we know the 
> ownership and usage history. In archeological terms, the provenance. We would 
> be proud to curate the Jasek Collection in our museum one day. 
> 
> Jim Kennedy
> 
> Mobile email from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2022, at 8:51 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>> 
>> I took a look around one day recently after reading something about 
>> someone’s lamp collection, and counted 13 in one room, also some big handled 
>> ceiling burners, and somewhere else some train lanterns! Modest per some 
>> collections, but all were used! Lol Anything we do someday I will decide 
>> after talking with Jim and daughter Amy. Jim said one lamp he did not have 
>> was a Butterfly? I did not care as long as it got me in and out of the cave! 
>> We have old climbing gear, ascending and descending, rope, not our really 
>> old helmets though ☹️ Wish I had kept mine like Carl Kunath’s. Of course as 
>> a bookbinder Jim created his own unique bound survey notebooks and pages, 
>> and some special things are in boxes created and stamped just for them! Of 
>> course all our mags are bound up until just a few years ago. He had one 
>> commercial and two or more home made by him cable ladders we gave to a 
>> friend a while back from Bexar Grotto to use or loan out as he saw fit. 
>> After giving Bill S. all that carbide and another small jar to one of Pete 
>> Strickland’s boys, not sure how much is left. Whatever we have that I do not 
>> want to keep will find good homes or be auctioned off to benefit TCMA and/or 
>> TSS for sure, and just might round up something for an NSS display Geary. 
>> Might even still have some maps no one else has from long ago? Only my cave 
>> man knows for sure there  So many memories ❤️
>> 
>> Oh, and I think Jim still has one or more original leather cases for his 
>> Bruntons, and we even had one repaired at one time I believe! Oh my, and 
>> that Total Photo Computer disk he and someone else developed for accurate 
>> photo exposure before cameras became more sophisticated? I had forgotten 
>> about that little invention! Lol
>> 
>> I am making too much future work for myself with this! Go caving, and stay 
>> safe and be well!
>> 
>> Mimi
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 31, 2022, at 4:11 PM, Geary Schindel  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mimi,
>>>  
>>> I think it would be nice to have you donate one of your carbide lamps to 
>>> the NSS Museum. One for both you and Jim. We are getting a bunch of new 
>>> display cases and they are looking to put out items from our many 
>>> noteworthy members.
>>>  
>>> Thanks,
>>>  
>>> Geary Schindel
>>>  
>>> From: Texascavers  On Behalf Of Linda 
>>> Starr
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2022 3:51 PM
>>> To: Mimi Jasek 
>>> Cc: Texascavers ; John Lyles 
>>> ; N E W L I S T Southwestern Cavers of the National 
>>> Spele

Re: [Texascavers] Suuntos

[Jim Kennedy]

Mimi, Geary had a good suggestion about donating a piece of gear to the NSS 
Museum. But if you ever decide to find a forever home for the rest of Jim’s 
(and your) caving books, equipment, survey notes, and other paraphernalia, 
don’t forget that the Texas Speleological Survey is the state’s Cave Archive, 
and also has a nice collection of historical memorabilia, soon to be displayed 
in our new headquarters at the Texas Speleology Center. While we appreciate ALL 
donations, the most important are those for which we know the ownership and 
usage history. In archeological terms, the provenance. We would be proud to 
curate the Jasek Collection in our museum one day. 

Jim Kennedy

Mobile email from my iPhone

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 8:51 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> 
> I took a look around one day recently after reading something about 
> someone’s lamp collection, and counted 13 in one room, also some big handled 
> ceiling burners, and somewhere else some train lanterns! Modest per some 
> collections, but all were used! Lol Anything we do someday I will decide 
> after talking with Jim and daughter Amy. Jim said one lamp he did not have 
> was a Butterfly? I did not care as long as it got me in and out of the cave! 
> We have old climbing gear, ascending and descending, rope, not our really old 
> helmets though ☹️ Wish I had kept mine like Carl Kunath’s. Of course as a 
> bookbinder Jim created his own unique bound survey notebooks and pages, and 
> some special things are in boxes created and stamped just for them! Of course 
> all our mags are bound up until just a few years ago. He had one commercial 
> and two or more home made by him cable ladders we gave to a friend a while 
> back from Bexar Grotto to use or loan out as he saw fit. After giving Bill S. 
> all that carbide and another small jar to one of Pete Strickland’s boys, not 
> sure how much is left. Whatever we have that I do not want to keep will find 
> good homes or be auctioned off to benefit TCMA and/or TSS for sure, and just 
> might round up something for an NSS display Geary. Might even still have some 
> maps no one else has from long ago? Only my cave man knows for sure there  
> So many memories ❤️
> 
> Oh, and I think Jim still has one or more original leather cases for his 
> Bruntons, and we even had one repaired at one time I believe! Oh my, and that 
> Total Photo Computer disk he and someone else developed for accurate photo 
> exposure before cameras became more sophisticated? I had forgotten about that 
> little invention! Lol
> 
> I am making too much future work for myself with this! Go caving, and stay 
> safe and be well!
> 
> Mimi
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2022, at 4:11 PM, Geary Schindel  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Mimi,
>>  
>> I think it would be nice to have you donate one of your carbide lamps to the 
>> NSS Museum. One for both you and Jim. We are getting a bunch of new display 
>> cases and they are looking to put out items from our many noteworthy members.
>>  
>> Thanks,
>>  
>> Geary Schindel
>>  
>> From: Texascavers  On Behalf Of Linda 
>> Starr
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2022 3:51 PM
>> To: Mimi Jasek 
>> Cc: Texascavers ; John Lyles 
>> ; N E W L I S T Southwestern Cavers of the National 
>> Speleological Society 
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair
>>  
>> External Email
>> Mimi,
>> You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that will 
>> use them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto may 
>> be planning.  Just a suggestion. Take it or  leave it and
>> Take care,
>> Linda Starr
>>  
>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:50 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he 
>> did not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he 
>> will never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some 
>> carbide, along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
>>  
>> Mimi Jasek
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
>> 
>> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how to 
>> use one. 
>>  
>> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
>> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey 
>> back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time 
>> and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the 
>> Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When 
>> t

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Mimi Jasek]

Of course  I still remember I believe when Amy was in 4th grade maybe? Her 
school took that grade on a bus field trip to Inner Space Caverns. Jim was 
going almost every weekend then remapping the cave, and Amy got her teacher to 
let Jim come give a talk on the cave, and demonstrate the use of a carbide 
lamp. I still smile over the memory of their reaction when he cupped his hand 
over the reflector and fired that sucker up! That pop made everyone jump, and 
the smell!! The teacher did not let him keep it lit long, but it certainly 
heightened their anticipation for the trip - even though just on the trail  A 
little knowledge...

Mimi

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 8:58 PM, Bill Steele  wrote:
> 
> He did indeed. Thank him for me. 
> 
> Bill 
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2022, at 8:13 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>> 
>> And James Jasek provided a good bit of the carbide as I remember!
>> 
>> Mimi Jasek
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 31, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Bill Steele  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Here in Texas we have an annual auction benefitting the good work of the 
>>> Texas Cave Management Association (TCMA - see: https://www.tcmacaves.org/). 
>>> I was the first auctioneer about 16 years ago, and a good time is always 
>>> had by all. 
>>> 
>>> For the auctions in 2018 and 2019 I offered a carbide-lamp-only trip for 
>>> six cavers to a long and mostly walking passage in Texas’ second longest 
>>> cave. It raised $1,500 the first year and $1,200 the second, as I recall. 
>>> This item was the finale of the auction and saw fierce bidding. 
>>> 
>>> The most fun was the trip itself. To be with younger cavers who had never 
>>> operated a carbide lamp, smelled one, blew into one to get it to flare up, 
>>> and to get a loud “pop!” when lighting one, was a joy for me. One caver 
>>> said to me after the trip, “It’s like every carbide lamp has it’s own 
>>> personality: one you blow into, one you shake, one you speak nicely to; 
>>> they’re all different” 
>>> 
>>> Cavingly yours,
>>> 
>>> Bill Steele (NSS 8072) 
>>> Irving, Texas
>>> 
 On Jan 31, 2022, at 3:51 PM, Linda Starr  wrote:
 
 
 Mimi,
 You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that will 
 use them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto 
 may be planning.  Just a suggestion. Take it or  leave it and
 Take care,
 Linda Starr
 
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:50 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he 
> did not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he 
> will never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some 
> carbide, along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
> 
> Mimi Jasek
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
>> 
>> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how 
>> to use one. 
>> 
>> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
>> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to 
>> survey back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made 
>> good time and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story 
>> was that the Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the 
>> instrument. When they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of 
>> water. But they used their carbide lights to boil out the water, and 
>> when dry enough they started surveying. Can’t do that today with LED 
>> lights.
>> 
>> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were 
>> no longer useful.
>> 
>>  - Pete
>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
>>> 
>>> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be 
>>> competitors. I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old 
>>> hardcopy catalogs from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started 
>>> noticing that the face of Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They 
>>> had changed to some different plastic fabrication. It's possible that 
>>> the earlier ones had a domed lens where the newer ones were flat. Many 
>>> cavers started gluing a thin sheet of transparent  polycarbonate over 
>>> the lens, still admitting light of course. Another solution was to 
>>> always keep it in the pouch and add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 
>>> circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on the face 
>>> side. 
>>> 
>>> The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those 
>>> of us who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately 
>>> familiar with the problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it 
>>> was inevitable that someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and 
>>> 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Bill Steele]

He did indeed. Thank him for me. 

Bill 

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 8:13 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> 
> And James Jasek provided a good bit of the carbide as I remember!
> 
> Mimi Jasek
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Bill Steele  wrote:
>> 
>> Here in Texas we have an annual auction benefitting the good work of the 
>> Texas Cave Management Association (TCMA - see: https://www.tcmacaves.org/). 
>> I was the first auctioneer about 16 years ago, and a good time is always had 
>> by all. 
>> 
>> For the auctions in 2018 and 2019 I offered a carbide-lamp-only trip for six 
>> cavers to a long and mostly walking passage in Texas’ second longest cave. 
>> It raised $1,500 the first year and $1,200 the second, as I recall. This 
>> item was the finale of the auction and saw fierce bidding. 
>> 
>> The most fun was the trip itself. To be with younger cavers who had never 
>> operated a carbide lamp, smelled one, blew into one to get it to flare up, 
>> and to get a loud “pop!” when lighting one, was a joy for me. One caver said 
>> to me after the trip, “It’s like every carbide lamp has it’s own 
>> personality: one you blow into, one you shake, one you speak nicely to; 
>> they’re all different” 
>> 
>> Cavingly yours,
>> 
>> Bill Steele (NSS 8072) 
>> Irving, Texas
>> 
 On Jan 31, 2022, at 3:51 PM, Linda Starr  wrote:
 
>>> 
>>> Mimi,
>>> You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that will 
>>> use them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto 
>>> may be planning.  Just a suggestion. Take it or  leave it and
>>> Take care,
>>> Linda Starr
>>> 
 On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:50 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
 I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he 
 did not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he 
 will never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some 
 carbide, along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
 
 Mimi Jasek
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
> 
> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how 
> to use one. 
> 
> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to 
> survey back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made 
> good time and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story 
> was that the Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the 
> instrument. When they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of 
> water. But they used their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when 
> dry enough they started surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
> 
> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no 
> longer useful.
> 
>  - Pete
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
>> 
>> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be 
>> competitors. I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old 
>> hardcopy catalogs from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started 
>> noticing that the face of Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They 
>> had changed to some different plastic fabrication. It's possible that 
>> the earlier ones had a domed lens where the newer ones were flat. Many 
>> cavers started gluing a thin sheet of transparent  polycarbonate over 
>> the lens, still admitting light of course. Another solution was to 
>> always keep it in the pouch and add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 
>> circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on the face 
>> side. 
>> 
>> The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of 
>> us who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar 
>> with the problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was 
>> inevitable that someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and 
>> accidentally crawl to the next shot with it hanging from neck, to then 
>> find that unmistakeable wet spot on their shirt with that oily fluid. It 
>> wasn't abnormal to have one leaking out of 4 that we took underground on 
>> camp trips, so extras were brought along. I think the CRO had a regular 
>> annual budget item repairing them. 
>> 
>> On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in 
>> Lechuguilla Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my 
>> suggestion that we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking 
>> fluid, tried duct tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey 
>> with a bubble and that finally changed the reluctance to install plastic 
>> guards on the Park's inventory. 
>> 
>> Disto X2's also 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Mimi Jasek]

I took a look around one day recently after reading something about someone’s 
lamp collection, and counted 13 in one room, also some big handled ceiling 
burners, and somewhere else some train lanterns! Modest per some collections, 
but all were used! Lol Anything we do someday I will decide after talking with 
Jim and daughter Amy. Jim said one lamp he did not have was a Butterfly? I did 
not care as long as it got me in and out of the cave! We have old climbing 
gear, ascending and descending, rope, not our really old helmets though ☹️ Wish 
I had kept mine like Carl Kunath’s. Of course as a bookbinder Jim created his 
own unique bound survey notebooks and pages, and some special things are in 
boxes created and stamped just for them! Of course all our mags are bound up 
until just a few years ago. He had one commercial and two or more home made by 
him cable ladders we gave to a friend a while back from Bexar Grotto to use or 
loan out as he saw fit. After giving Bill S. all that carbide and another small 
jar to one of Pete Strickland’s boys, not sure how much is left. Whatever we 
have that I do not want to keep will find good homes or be auctioned off to 
benefit TCMA and/or TSS for sure, and just might round up something for an NSS 
display Geary. Might even still have some maps no one else has from long ago? 
Only my cave man knows for sure there  So many memories ❤️

Oh, and I think Jim still has one or more original leather cases for his 
Bruntons, and we even had one repaired at one time I believe! Oh my, and that 
Total Photo Computer disk he and someone else developed for accurate photo 
exposure before cameras became more sophisticated? I had forgotten about that 
little invention! Lol

I am making too much future work for myself with this! Go caving, and stay safe 
and be well!

Mimi

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 4:11 PM, Geary Schindel  
> wrote:
> 
> Mimi,
>  
> I think it would be nice to have you donate one of your carbide lamps to the 
> NSS Museum. One for both you and Jim. We are getting a bunch of new display 
> cases and they are looking to put out items from our many noteworthy members.
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Geary Schindel
>  
> From: Texascavers  On Behalf Of Linda 
> Starr
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2022 3:51 PM
> To: Mimi Jasek 
> Cc: Texascavers ; John Lyles 
> ; N E W L I S T Southwestern Cavers of the National 
> Speleological Society 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair
>  
> External Email
> Mimi,
> You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that will use 
> them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto may be 
> planning.  Just a suggestion. Take it or  leave it and
> Take care,
> Linda Starr
>  
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:50 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he did 
> not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he will 
> never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some carbide, 
> along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
>  
> Mimi Jasek
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
> 
> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how to 
> use one. 
>  
> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey 
> back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time 
> and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the 
> Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When 
> they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But they used 
> their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough they started 
> surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
>  
> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no 
> longer useful.
>  
>  - Pete
>  
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
>  
> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be competitors. 
> I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old hardcopy catalogs 
> from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started noticing that the face of 
> Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They had changed to some different 
> plastic fabrication. It's possible that the earlier ones had a domed lens 
> where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers started gluing a thin sheet of 
> transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, still admitting light of course. 
> Another solution was to always keep it in the pouch and add a thin piece or 
> Micarta or FR4 circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on the 
> fac

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Mimi Jasek]

And James Jasek provided a good bit of the carbide as I remember!

Mimi Jasek

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Bill Steele  wrote:
> 
> Here in Texas we have an annual auction benefitting the good work of the 
> Texas Cave Management Association (TCMA - see: https://www.tcmacaves.org/). I 
> was the first auctioneer about 16 years ago, and a good time is always had by 
> all. 
> 
> For the auctions in 2018 and 2019 I offered a carbide-lamp-only trip for six 
> cavers to a long and mostly walking passage in Texas’ second longest cave. It 
> raised $1,500 the first year and $1,200 the second, as I recall. This item 
> was the finale of the auction and saw fierce bidding. 
> 
> The most fun was the trip itself. To be with younger cavers who had never 
> operated a carbide lamp, smelled one, blew into one to get it to flare up, 
> and to get a loud “pop!” when lighting one, was a joy for me. One caver said 
> to me after the trip, “It’s like every carbide lamp has it’s own personality: 
> one you blow into, one you shake, one you speak nicely to; they’re all 
> different” 
> 
> Cavingly yours,
> 
> Bill Steele (NSS 8072) 
> Irving, Texas
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2022, at 3:51 PM, Linda Starr  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Mimi,
>> You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that will 
>> use them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto may 
>> be planning.  Just a suggestion. Take it or  leave it and
>> Take care,
>> Linda Starr
>> 
>>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:50 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>>> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he 
>>> did not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he 
>>> will never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some 
>>> carbide, along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
>>> 
>>> Mimi Jasek
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
 
 Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how 
 to use one. 
 
 Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
 Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey 
 back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good 
 time and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that 
 the Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. 
 When they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But 
 they used their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough 
 they started surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
 
 My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no 
 longer useful.
 
  - Pete
 
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
> 
> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be 
> competitors. I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old 
> hardcopy catalogs from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started 
> noticing that the face of Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They 
> had changed to some different plastic fabrication. It's possible that the 
> earlier ones had a domed lens where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers 
> started gluing a thin sheet of transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, 
> still admitting light of course. Another solution was to always keep it 
> in the pouch and add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 circuit board  
> material 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on the face side. 
> 
> The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of 
> us who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar 
> with the problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was 
> inevitable that someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and 
> accidentally crawl to the next shot with it hanging from neck, to then 
> find that unmistakeable wet spot on their shirt with that oily fluid. It 
> wasn't abnormal to have one leaking out of 4 that we took underground on 
> camp trips, so extras were brought along. I think the CRO had a regular 
> annual budget item repairing them. 
> 
> On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in 
> Lechuguilla Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my 
> suggestion that we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking 
> fluid, tried duct tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey 
> with a bubble and that finally changed the reluctance to install plastic 
> guards on the Park's inventory. 
> 
> Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the 
> display, as it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a 
> $500 instrument. I modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Bill Steele]

Here in Texas we have an annual auction benefitting the good work of the Texas 
Cave Management Association (TCMA - see: https://www.tcmacaves.org/). I was the 
first auctioneer about 16 years ago, and a good time is always had by all. 

For the auctions in 2018 and 2019 I offered a carbide-lamp-only trip for six 
cavers to a long and mostly walking passage in Texas’ second longest cave. It 
raised $1,500 the first year and $1,200 the second, as I recall. This item was 
the finale of the auction and saw fierce bidding. 

The most fun was the trip itself. To be with younger cavers who had never 
operated a carbide lamp, smelled one, blew into one to get it to flare up, and 
to get a loud “pop!” when lighting one, was a joy for me. One caver said to me 
after the trip, “It’s like every carbide lamp has it’s own personality: one you 
blow into, one you shake, one you speak nicely to; they’re all different” 

Cavingly yours,

Bill Steele (NSS 8072) 
Irving, Texas

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 3:51 PM, Linda Starr  wrote:
> 
> 
> Mimi,
> You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that will use 
> them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto may be 
> planning.  Just a suggestion. Take it or  leave it and
> Take care,
> Linda Starr
> 
>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:50 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he 
>> did not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he 
>> will never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some 
>> carbide, along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
>> 
>> Mimi Jasek
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how to 
>>> use one. 
>>> 
>>> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
>>> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey 
>>> back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time 
>>> and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the 
>>> Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When 
>>> they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But they used 
>>> their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough they 
>>> started surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
>>> 
>>> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no 
>>> longer useful.
>>> 
>>>  - Pete
>>> 
 On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
 
 George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be 
 competitors. I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old 
 hardcopy catalogs from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started 
 noticing that the face of Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They had 
 changed to some different plastic fabrication. It's possible that the 
 earlier ones had a domed lens where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers 
 started gluing a thin sheet of transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, 
 still admitting light of course. Another solution was to always keep it in 
 the pouch and add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 circuit board  material 
 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on the face side. 
 
 The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of 
 us who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar with 
 the problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was inevitable 
 that someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and accidentally crawl 
 to the next shot with it hanging from neck, to then find that 
 unmistakeable wet spot on their shirt with that oily fluid. It wasn't 
 abnormal to have one leaking out of 4 that we took underground on camp 
 trips, so extras were brought along. I think the CRO had a regular annual 
 budget item repairing them. 
 
 On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in 
 Lechuguilla Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my 
 suggestion that we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking 
 fluid, tried duct tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey 
 with a bubble and that finally changed the reluctance to install plastic 
 guards on the Park's inventory. 
 
 Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the display, 
 as it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a $500 
 instrument. I modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort 
 Stanton Cave Study Project.  
 
 John
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:52 AM, George Veni  wrote:
> While many cavers are now using DistoX2s for surveying, many of us still 
> have and use Suuntos. I was on trip yesterday and found the face of my 
> 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Linda Starr]

The Fort Stanton Museum has an exhibit on Fort Stanton Cave and it includes
a carbide light and old-style helmet, thanks to a donator.
Linda Starr

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 3:11 PM 'Geary Schindel' via Southwestern Cavers of
the National Speleological Society  wrote:

> Mimi,
>
>
>
> I think it would be nice to have you donate one of your carbide lamps to
> the NSS Museum. One for both you and Jim. We are getting a bunch of new
> display cases and they are looking to put out items from our many
> noteworthy members.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Geary Schindel
>
>
>
> *From:* Texascavers  *On Behalf Of *Linda
> Starr
> *Sent:* Monday, January 31, 2022 3:51 PM
> *To:* Mimi Jasek 
> *Cc:* Texascavers ; John Lyles <
> j...@losalamos.com>; N E W L I S T Southwestern Cavers of the National
> Speleological Society 
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair
>
>
>
> External Email
>
> Mimi,
>
> You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that will
> use them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto
> may be planning.  Just a suggestion. Take it or  leave it and
>
> Take care,
>
> Linda Starr
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:50 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>
> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he
> did not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he
> will never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some
> carbide, along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
>
>
>
> Mimi Jasek
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
>
> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how
> to use one.
>
>
>
> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in
> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey
> back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time
> and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the
> Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When
> they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But they used
> their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough they
> started surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
>
>
>
> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no
> longer useful.
>
>
>
>  - Pete
>
>
>
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
>
>
>
> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be
> competitors. I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old
> hardcopy catalogs from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started noticing
> that the face of Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They had changed
> to some different plastic fabrication. It's possible that the earlier ones
> had a domed lens where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers started gluing
> a thin sheet of transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, still admitting
> light of course. Another solution was to always keep it in the pouch and
> add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06
> thick in the pouch on the face side.
>
> The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of
> us who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar with
> the problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was inevitable
> that someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and accidentally crawl
> to the next shot with it hanging from neck, to then find that unmistakeable
> wet spot on their shirt with that oily fluid. It wasn't abnormal to have
> one leaking out of 4 that we took underground on camp trips, so extras were
> brought along. I think the CRO had a regular annual budget item repairing
> them.
>
> On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in
> Lechuguilla Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my
> suggestion that we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking
> fluid, tried duct tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey
> with a bubble and that finally changed the reluctance to install plastic
> guards on the Park's inventory.
>
> Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the display,
> as it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a $500
> instrument. I modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort
> Stanton Cave Study Project.
>
> John
>
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:52 AM, George Veni  wrote:
>
> While many cavers are now using DistoX2s for surveying, many of us still

Re: [Texascavers] Suuntos

[Jim Kennedy]

Or to the Texas Speleological Survey!

Mobile email from my iPhone

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 3:51 PM, Linda Starr  wrote:
> 
>  You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that 
> will use them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto 
> may be planning.
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Linda Starr]

Mimi,
You should donate your carbide and carbide lamps to some grotto that will
use them, maybe for a carbide-specific grotto trip, as the Sandia Grotto
may be planning.  Just a suggestion. Take it or  leave it and
Take care,
Linda Starr

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 7:50 PM Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he
> did not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he
> will never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some
> carbide, along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
>
> Mimi Jasek
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
>
> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how
> to use one.
>
> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in
> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey
> back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time
> and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the
> Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When
> they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But they used
> their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough they
> started surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
>
> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no
> longer useful.
>
>  - Pete
>
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
>
> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be
> competitors. I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old
> hardcopy catalogs from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started noticing
> that the face of Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They had changed
> to some different plastic fabrication. It's possible that the earlier ones
> had a domed lens where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers started gluing
> a thin sheet of transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, still admitting
> light of course. Another solution was to always keep it in the pouch and
> add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06
> thick in the pouch on the face side.
>
> The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of
> us who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar with
> the problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was inevitable
> that someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and accidentally crawl
> to the next shot with it hanging from neck, to then find that unmistakeable
> wet spot on their shirt with that oily fluid. It wasn't abnormal to have
> one leaking out of 4 that we took underground on camp trips, so extras were
> brought along. I think the CRO had a regular annual budget item repairing
> them.
>
> On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in
> Lechuguilla Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my
> suggestion that we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking
> fluid, tried duct tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey
> with a bubble and that finally changed the reluctance to install plastic
> guards on the Park's inventory.
>
> Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the display,
> as it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a $500
> instrument. I modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort
> Stanton Cave Study Project.
>
> John
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:52 AM, George Veni  wrote:
>>
>> While many cavers are now using DistoX2s for surveying, many of us still
>> have and use Suuntos. I was on trip yesterday and found the face of my
>> Suunto compass had cracked, creating a large bubble inside the instrument
>> that makes it hard to use accurately. Years ago, I’d send my Suuntos off to
>> the Ben Meadow Company for repair. I hadn’t heard of anyone doing that
>> recently, so I looked into it and am posting this note in case anyone finds
>> it helpful.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ben Meadows is now part of Forestry Suppliers. And they do repair Suunto
>> compasses and clinometers (among other things) for about $100 less than
>> buying a new one. For more information, go to
>> https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/RepairList.php.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> George
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> George  Veni, PhD
>>
>>
>> Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
>>
>>
>> and
>>
>>
>> President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *NCKRI address (primary)*
>>
>>
>> 400-1 Cascades Avenue
>>
>>
>> Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
>>
>>
>> Office: +575-887-5517
>>
>>
>> Mobile: +210-863-5919
>>
>>
>> Fax: +575-887-5523
>>
>>
>> gv...@nckri.org
>>
>>
>> www.nckri.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *UIS address*
>>
>>
>> Titov trg 2
>>
>>
>> Postojna, 6230 Slovenia
>>
>>
>> www.uis-speleo.org
>>
>>
>> www.iyck2021.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Mimi Jasek]

Hey Pete,

That is the way Jim surveyed, though, and I surveyed with him. Also 
back-sighting same way etc. He was a stickler for good closures, and when I met 
him I was working as a draftsman and mathematician for a surveying company. I 
would draw up land surveys from field notes with a drafting arm, for it was way 
before any kind of machine! Inking and lettering all done by hand! Did title 
research on land for discrepancies, once roads laid out helped with maps on 
subdivisions. I was always pleased the crews could take my maps out in the 
field and lay those subs out with no errors, for I checked my work and did not 
leave measurements off as some did! Why cave surveying and mapping was easier 
for me 

Mimi

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 30, 2022, at 9:42 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mimi! 
> 
> The Brunton is more accurate if you tripod-mount it and use the shadow 
> method. But then you need to add instrument height and light height. People 
> are often too lazy to do that, however.
> 
>  - Pete
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
>> 
>> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he 
>> did not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he 
>> will never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some 
>> carbide, along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
>> 
>> Mimi Jasek
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how to 
>>> use one. 
>>> 
>>> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
>>> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey 
>>> back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time 
>>> and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the 
>>> Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When 
>>> they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But they used 
>>> their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough they 
>>> started surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
>>> 
>>> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no 
>>> longer useful.
>>> 
>>>  - Pete
>>> 
 On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
 
 George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be 
 competitors. I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old 
 hardcopy catalogs from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started 
 noticing that the face of Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They had 
 changed to some different plastic fabrication. It's possible that the 
 earlier ones had a domed lens where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers 
 started gluing a thin sheet of transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, 
 still admitting light of course. Another solution was to always keep it in 
 the pouch and add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 circuit board  material 
 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on the face side. 
 
 The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of 
 us who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar with 
 the problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was inevitable 
 that someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and accidentally crawl 
 to the next shot with it hanging from neck, to then find that 
 unmistakeable wet spot on their shirt with that oily fluid. It wasn't 
 abnormal to have one leaking out of 4 that we took underground on camp 
 trips, so extras were brought along. I think the CRO had a regular annual 
 budget item repairing them. 
 
 On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in 
 Lechuguilla Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my 
 suggestion that we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking 
 fluid, tried duct tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey 
 with a bubble and that finally changed the reluctance to install plastic 
 guards on the Park's inventory. 
 
 Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the display, 
 as it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a $500 
 instrument. I modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort 
 Stanton Cave Study Project.  
 
 John
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:52 AM, George Veni  wrote:
> While many cavers are now using DistoX2s for surveying, many of us still 
> have and use Suuntos. I was on trip yesterday and found the face of my 
> Suunto compass had cracked, creating a large bubble inside the instrument 
> that makes it hard to use accurately. Years ago, I’d send my Suuntos off 
> to the Ben Meadow Company for repair. I hadn’t heard of anyone doing that 
> recently, so I looked 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[P Lindsley]

Hi Mimi! 

The Brunton is more accurate if you tripod-mount it and use the shadow method. 
But then you need to add instrument height and light height. People are often 
too lazy to do that, however.

 - Pete

> On Jan 30, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Mimi Jasek  wrote:
> 
> I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he did 
> not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he will 
> never go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some carbide, 
> along with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol
> 
> Mimi Jasek
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  > wrote:
> 
>> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how to 
>> use one. 
>> 
>> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
>> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey 
>> back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time 
>> and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the 
>> Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When 
>> they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But they used 
>> their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough they started 
>> surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
>> 
>> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no 
>> longer useful.
>> 
>>  - Pete
>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be competitors. 
>>> I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old hardcopy 
>>> catalogs from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started noticing that the 
>>> face of Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They had changed to some 
>>> different plastic fabrication. It's possible that the earlier ones had a 
>>> domed lens where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers started gluing a 
>>> thin sheet of transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, still admitting 
>>> light of course. Another solution was to always keep it in the pouch and 
>>> add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06 
>>> thick in the pouch on the face side. 
>>> 
>>> The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of us 
>>> who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar with the 
>>> problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was inevitable that 
>>> someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and accidentally crawl to 
>>> the next shot with it hanging from neck, to then find that unmistakeable 
>>> wet spot on their shirt with that oily fluid. It wasn't abnormal to have 
>>> one leaking out of 4 that we took underground on camp trips, so extras were 
>>> brought along. I think the CRO had a regular annual budget item repairing 
>>> them. 
>>> 
>>> On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in 
>>> Lechuguilla Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my 
>>> suggestion that we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking 
>>> fluid, tried duct tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey 
>>> with a bubble and that finally changed the reluctance to install plastic 
>>> guards on the Park's inventory. 
>>> 
>>> Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the display, 
>>> as it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a $500 
>>> instrument. I modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort 
>>> Stanton Cave Study Project.  
>>> 
>>> John
>>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:52 AM, George Veni >> > wrote:
>>> While many cavers are now using DistoX2s for surveying, many of us still 
>>> have and use Suuntos. I was on trip yesterday and found the face of my 
>>> Suunto compass had cracked, creating a large bubble inside the instrument 
>>> that makes it hard to use accurately. Years ago, I’d send my Suuntos off to 
>>> the Ben Meadow Company for repair. I hadn’t heard of anyone doing that 
>>> recently, so I looked into it and am posting this note in case anyone finds 
>>> it helpful.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Ben Meadows is now part of Forestry Suppliers. And they do repair Suunto 
>>> compasses and clinometers (among other things) for about $100 less than 
>>> buying a new one. For more information, go to 
>>> https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/RepairList.php 
>>> .
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> George
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> George  Veni, PhD
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> and
>>> 
>>> 
>>> President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> NCKRI address (primary)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 400-1 Cascades Avenue 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Carlsbad, New Mexico 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[Mimi Jasek]

I’m with you Pete. Jim never went to Suunto - always Brunton. But then he did 
not do much wet cave surveying, nor deep vertical stuff. Although he will never 
go caving again, we still have lots of carbide lamps and some carbide, along 
with our LED lights. I still love that smell! Lol

Mimi Jasek

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:26 PM, P Lindsley  wrote:
> 
> Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how to 
> use one. 
> 
> Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
> Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey 
> back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time 
> and bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the 
> Brunton was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When 
> they finally fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But they used 
> their carbide lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough they started 
> surveying. Can’t do that today with LED lights.
> 
> My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no 
> longer useful.
> 
>  - Pete
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
>> 
>> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be competitors. 
>> I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old hardcopy catalogs 
>> from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started noticing that the face of 
>> Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They had changed to some different 
>> plastic fabrication. It's possible that the earlier ones had a domed lens 
>> where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers started gluing a thin sheet of 
>> transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, still admitting light of course. 
>> Another solution was to always keep it in the pouch and add a thin piece or 
>> Micarta or FR4 circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on 
>> the face side. 
>> 
>> The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of us 
>> who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar with the 
>> problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was inevitable that 
>> someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and accidentally crawl to the 
>> next shot with it hanging from neck, to then find that unmistakeable wet 
>> spot on their shirt with that oily fluid. It wasn't abnormal to have one 
>> leaking out of 4 that we took underground on camp trips, so extras were 
>> brought along. I think the CRO had a regular annual budget item repairing 
>> them. 
>> 
>> On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in Lechuguilla 
>> Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my suggestion that 
>> we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking fluid, tried duct 
>> tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey with a bubble and that 
>> finally changed the reluctance to install plastic guards on the Park's 
>> inventory. 
>> 
>> Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the display, 
>> as it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a $500 
>> instrument. I modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort Stanton 
>> Cave Study Project.  
>> 
>> John
>>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:52 AM, George Veni  wrote:
>>> While many cavers are now using DistoX2s for surveying, many of us still 
>>> have and use Suuntos. I was on trip yesterday and found the face of my 
>>> Suunto compass had cracked, creating a large bubble inside the instrument 
>>> that makes it hard to use accurately. Years ago, I’d send my Suuntos off to 
>>> the Ben Meadow Company for repair. I hadn’t heard of anyone doing that 
>>> recently, so I looked into it and am posting this note in case anyone finds 
>>> it helpful.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Ben Meadows is now part of Forestry Suppliers. And they do repair Suunto 
>>> compasses and clinometers (among other things) for about $100 less than 
>>> buying a new one. For more information, go to 
>>> https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/RepairList.php.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> George
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> George  Veni, PhD
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> and
>>> 
>>> 
>>> President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> NCKRI address (primary)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 400-1 Cascades Avenue 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Office: +575-887-5517
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mobile: +210-863-5919
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Fax: +575-887-5523
>>> 
>>> 
>>> gv...@nckri.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> www.nckri.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> UIS address
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Titov trg 2
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Postojna, 6230 Slovenia
>>> 
>>> 
>>> www.uis-speleo.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> www.iyck2021.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Southwestern Cavers of 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[P Lindsley]

Brunton’s also work well, but there is hardly anyone left that knows how to use 
one. 

Years ago 5 of us were surveying a mile in a wet suit stream passage in 
Colossal Cave, Ky. Roger Brucker and Alan Hill went to the “end” to survey 
back, Art & Peg Palmer and myself started surveying “in”. We made good time and 
bragged about it when we met the other team. Their story was that the Brunton 
was dropped in a muddy pool, too muddy to see the instrument. When they finally 
fished it out of the drink it was full of water. But they used their carbide 
lights to boil out the water, and when dry enough they started surveying. Can’t 
do that today with LED lights.

My 3 Brunton’s still work, long ago my 3-4 Suuntos clouded up and were no 
longer useful.

 - Pete

> On Jan 30, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Lyles  wrote:
> 
> George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be competitors. 
> I'm glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old hardcopy catalogs 
> from them the other day.  Around 2006 we started noticing that the face of 
> Suuntos was getting cracked frequently. They had changed to some different 
> plastic fabrication. It's possible that the earlier ones had a domed lens 
> where the newer ones were flat. Many cavers started gluing a thin sheet of 
> transparent  polycarbonate over the lens, still admitting light of course. 
> Another solution was to always keep it in the pouch and add a thin piece or 
> Micarta or FR4 circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on the 
> face side. 
> 
> The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of us 
> who broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar with the 
> problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was inevitable that 
> someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and accidentally crawl to the 
> next shot with it hanging from neck, to then find that unmistakeable wet spot 
> on their shirt with that oily fluid. It wasn't abnormal to have one leaking 
> out of 4 that we took underground on camp trips, so extras were brought 
> along. I think the CRO had a regular annual budget item repairing them. 
> 
> On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in Lechuguilla 
> Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my suggestion that 
> we bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking fluid, tried duct 
> tape, hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey with a bubble and that 
> finally changed the reluctance to install plastic guards on the Park's 
> inventory. 
> 
> Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the display, as 
> it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a $500 instrument. 
> I modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort Stanton Cave Study 
> Project.  
> 
> John
> On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:52 AM, George Veni  > wrote:
> While many cavers are now using DistoX2s for surveying, many of us still have 
> and use Suuntos. I was on trip yesterday and found the face of my Suunto 
> compass had cracked, creating a large bubble inside the instrument that makes 
> it hard to use accurately. Years ago, I’d send my Suuntos off to the Ben 
> Meadow Company for repair. I hadn’t heard of anyone doing that recently, so I 
> looked into it and am posting this note in case anyone finds it helpful.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Ben Meadows is now part of Forestry Suppliers. And they do repair Suunto 
> compasses and clinometers (among other things) for about $100 less than 
> buying a new one. For more information, go to 
> https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/RepairList.php 
> .
> 
> 
>  
> 
> George
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George  Veni, PhD
> 
> 
> Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)
> 
> 
>  
> 
> NCKRI address (primary)
> 
> 
> 400-1 Cascades Avenue 
> 
> 
> Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
> 
> 
> Office: +575-887-5517
> 
> 
> Mobile: +210-863-5919
> 
> 
> Fax: +575-887-5523
> 
> 
> gv...@nckri.org 
> 
> 
> www.nckri.org 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> UIS address
> 
> 
> Titov trg 2
> 
> 
> Postojna, 6230 Slovenia
> 
> 
> www.uis-speleo.org 
> 
> 
> www.iyck2021.org 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/fb6b1c7a-3aee-46eb-8ee4-e6e02bda0664%40losalamos.com
>  
> 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

[George Veni]

Thanks John and Marvin!


George  Veni, PhD
Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
and
President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)

NCKRI address (primary)
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
Office: +575-887-5517
Mobile: +210-863-5919
Fax: +575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org/>

UIS address
Titov trg 2
Postojna, 6230 Slovenia
www.uis-speleo.org<http://www.uis-speleo.org/>
www.iyck2021.org<http://www.iyck2021.org/>

From: Marvin and Lisa 
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 6:36 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; George Veni 
Cc: 'New Mexico Cavers' 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

Swaygo makes the Site Lite Shield, available from IMO.

https://innermountainoutfitters.com/collections/survey-2/products/shield

[cid:image001.jpg@01D8160B.1394F490]

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
John Lyles
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 2:21 PM
To: George Veni mailto:gv...@nckri.org>>
Cc: Texas Cavers 
(Texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:Texascavers@texascavers.com>) 
mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>; New Mexico 
Cavers (swrcav...@googlegroups.com<mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>) 
mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Suunto repair

George, thanks for sharing this. Ben Meadows and FS used to be competitors. I'm 
glad at least one is still going. I just tossed my old hardcopy catalogs from 
them the other day.  Around 2006 we started noticing that the face of Suuntos 
was getting cracked frequently. They had changed to some different plastic 
fabrication. It's possible that the earlier ones had a domed lens where the 
newer ones were flat. Many cavers started gluing a thin sheet of transparent  
polycarbonate over the lens, still admitting light of course. Another solution 
was to always keep it in the pouch and add a thin piece or Micarta or FR4 
circuit board  material 0.03 or 0.06 thick in the pouch on the face side.
The Nat Park at Carlsbad was slow at adopting this approach and those of us who 
broke our share of government Suuntos were intimately familiar with the 
problem. We carried them in small Otter boxes but it was inevitable that 
someone would be shooting a station in a crawl and accidentally crawl to the 
next shot with it hanging from neck, to then find that unmistakeable wet spot 
on their shirt with that oily fluid. It wasn't abnormal to have one leaking out 
of 4 that we took underground on camp trips, so extras were brought along. I 
think the CRO had a regular annual budget item repairing them.
On one trip we took a CRO staffer on the second trip up to OZ in Lechuguilla 
Cave. Between three of us we had several Suuntos, despite my suggestion that we 
bring extras. I think we managed to kill one, leaking fluid, tried duct tape, 
hold it only face up, etc. We managed to survey with a bubble and that finally 
changed the reluctance to install plastic guards on the Park's inventory.
Disto X2's also benefit from having a thin plastic sheet over the display, as 
it can be cracked if pressed face against a rock,  to ruin a $500 instrument. I 
modified mine and the collection belonging to the Fort Stanton Cave Study 
Project.
John
On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:52 AM, George Veni 
mailto:gv...@nckri.org>> wrote:
While many cavers are now using DistoX2s for surveying, many of us still have 
and use Suuntos. I was on trip yesterday and found the face of my Suunto 
compass had cracked, creating a large bubble inside the instrument that makes 
it hard to use accurately. Years ago, I’d send my Suuntos off to the Ben Meadow 
Company for repair. I hadn’t heard of anyone doing that recently, so I looked 
into it and am posting this note in case anyone finds it helpful.


Ben Meadows is now part of Forestry Suppliers. And they do repair Suunto 
compasses and clinometers (among other things) for about $100 less than buying 
a new one. For more information, go to 
https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/RepairList.php.


George



George  Veni, PhD
Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI)
and
President, International Union of Speleology (UIS)


NCKRI address (primary)
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
Office: +575-887-5517
Mobile: +210-863-5919
Fax: +575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org/>


UIS address
Titov trg 2
Postojna, 6230 Slovenia
www.uis-speleo.org<http://www.uis-speleo.org/>
www.iyck2021.org<http://www.iyck2021.org/>


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