Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Jakub Steiner]

Hi.
While I still don't see any immediate need for high res, we did start
playing around with the uber-detailed style for gnome icon theme [1]. 

There is nothing stopping you from providing highly detailed artwork for
large canvases without diverging from the tango style. We don't have any
guidelines for the high res as it will take a bit of iterations to get
the style right, but don't consider 48x48px to be a dead end for Tango.

The current problem is getting consistent icon set across dozens of free
applications, and this is largely a 24x24/22x22 pixel land still. The
Oxygen set has recently been improving in low res area and the style
isn't far off from tango in fact[2]. I am pretty confident that creating
an Ubuntu base set that follows the tango guidelines, provides high-res
art will work rather well in KDE4 too. 

cheers

[1] http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/jimmac/git-highres.git;a=summary
[2] http://people.freedesktop.org/~jimmac/icons/#oxygen

On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 13:12 -0500, Corey Woodworth wrote:
> I agree about Tango. It's nice and all, but I want something more
> detailed, realistic, and well, different. I think working off the
> Oxygen theme wouldn't be a bad idea since there will already be quite
> a lot work done on it. Mime types and actions would already be
> completed. We'd mostly just have to make gnome application icons.
-- 
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[SzerencseFia]

Corey Woodworth wrote:
> I really like the Caramello theme's colors.
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Caramello?content=67476
> Its a subtle brown, and a very smokey grey/black.
>
> Corey.
Good harmony of the light colors with the Aurora engine. I only have one 
concern, if we need to mix light and dark settings within one theme or 
are we going to separate them in two theme packs?
Kenneth, we are missing your comments. :-) do not withhold them anymore...

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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Corey Woodworth]

I really like the Caramello theme's colors.
http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Caramello?content=67476
Its a subtle brown, and a very smokey grey/black.

Corey.

On Nov 12, 2007 3:00 AM, Günther Beyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Previously I worked on a design and it might give some new idea for Hardy
> now.
>
> http://szerencsefia.googlepages.com/DarkCaramel_nautilus.png/DarkCaramel_nautilus-full.jpg
> Comments?
>
>
>
> I agree, one of the best so far. Nice idea, to replace the black with some
> sort of dark brown.
> Some more thoughts on colour: Though black and orange might be a fresh
> breeze after so much Microsoft and OSX grey, it could be a little to heavy
> on a desktop that you will look at the whole day. This has to be executed
> with care. Maybe we could try to play a little more with colour:
>
> - orange, red and yellow for wallpapers/backgrounds
> - black, grey and white for windows and gtk
> - more eyepleasing and fresh colours for the icons, like blue, green,
> light brown and white
>
> I'm not quite sure if this works out, but I will try some mockups and
> colourtest this week.
>
> keep on and cheerz
> Günther
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme

[xl cheese]

As much as I like this idea I think it will present all the problems we see in 
a dark theme.  I put together a real theme to look like this and the dark menu 
bar and toolbar causes problems in firefox 
etc...http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png

> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:00:34 +0100> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]> CC: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] 
> [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme> > ..on or around Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 
> 12:10:54PM -0500, Matthew Nuzum said:> > On Nov 7, 2007 12:14 AM, Troy James 
> Sobotka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > IMHO, I like these:> > 
> http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png>
>  > agreed. this is the best use of black (in itself) i've seen on this list> 
> so far. the soft matte gradiant is very easy on the eyes - a most important > 
> characteristic. i also like how that black isn't pretending to be some> 
> corporeal material, like glass or chrome. > > it also shows-up just how 
> caramel and glossy the existing icon> theme is..> > what is the best 
> candidate we have right now for an icon replacement?> > julian> > -- > 
> http://julianoliver.com> http://selectparks.net> emails containing HTML will 
> not be read.> > > > -- > ubuntu-art mailing list> 
> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com> 
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Andrew Laignel]

Andrew Laignel wrote:
>
>>> Previously I worked on a design and it might give some new idea for 
>>> Hardy now.
>>> http://szerencsefia.googlepages.com/DarkCaramel_nautilus.png/DarkCaramel_nautilus-full.jpg
>>>  
>>>
>>> Comments?
>
> While I do like the theme I do not think going fully dark is a good 
> idea.  Just the title bar, as was in a screenshot in this thread 
> already (I cant find it though), looks good but the whole window is a 
> bit full on and a bit contraversial for a default theme.  It also may 
> have problems with icons that are designed for a light background 
> causing them to either not be properly visible (dark icon on a dark 
> background) or with a jaggy light edge if the icons only use a 1 bit 
> alpha channel.
>
> I think one of the most important criteria for judging the new theme 
> should not be how many people like it, but rather how many people hate 
> it.  The main reason for the excessive light blues/greys in themes on 
> other platforms is to create something that is light, airy and 
> neutral. Anything that is too stylized or funky is likely to polarize 
> people into the love it/hate it camps when its better to have everyone 
> more neutral.
>
> Not that we should be boring, not at all, but I think avoiding 
> anything that is radical or too fundamentally different would be a 
> good idea and you can create nice work while sticking to this 
> principle - OSX is a perfect example.  That being said I am running 
> Ubuntu on my laptop now and the only theme that I don't think is 
> horrible is Clearlooks.  It would be nice to have 3 or so really nice 
> themes (such as this one) people could pick if they wanted something 
> different.
>
> I think also pre-choosing 12 or so different ultra-high quality 
> wallpapers would be a good idea.  There are many art sites (such as 
> Deviantart.com) that are choc full of talented people who would 
> probably be more than happy to have their work showcased in such a 
> high profile environment.  I was slightly disappointed that there was 
> only a couple in Ubuntu, and they seemed to be mainly dark based.
>
> While on the subject maybe (unless it already exists) we should make 
> somewhere all the current mockups could be stored on the net in a 
> gallery form so it's easy to look over them again?  The old postings 
> seem to get lost in time and forgotten about.
>


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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Günther Beyer]

Previously I worked on a design and it might give some new idea for  
Hardy now.
http://szerencsefia.googlepages.com/DarkCaramel_nautilus.png/ 
DarkCaramel_nautilus-full.jpg

Comments?



I agree, one of the best so far. Nice idea, to replace the black with  
some sort of dark brown.


Some more thoughts on colour: Though black and orange might be a  
fresh breeze after so much Microsoft and OSX grey, it could be a  
little to heavy on a desktop that you will look at the whole day.  
This has to be executed with care. Maybe we could try to play a  
little more with colour:


- orange, red and yellow for wallpapers/backgrounds
- black, grey and white for windows and gtk
- more eyepleasing and fresh colours for the icons, like blue, green,  
light brown and white


I'm not quite sure if this works out, but I will try some mockups and  
colourtest this week.


keep on and cheerz
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[jmak]

On Nov 10, 2007 3:41 PM, SzerencseFia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Troy James Sobotka wrote:
>
>  4) The uniform Metacity to GTK Patel window is top shelf, even if a bit
>  OSX. Another +1 from me.
>
> What image are you refering to here?
>
>  The manner in which the top window border is indistinguishable between
> the lower interface box.
>
>  Previously I worked on a design and it might give some new idea for Hardy
> now.
>
> http://szerencsefia.googlepages.com/DarkCaramel_nautilus.png/DarkCaramel_nautilus-full.jpg
>  Comments?
>

+1

The best so far.

>
>
>  6) Glossy is done like dinner. It is completely mooky to keep following
>  that path, as it was way back in Edgy.
>
> Sorry, but I don't understand that sentence. Are you for or againt gloss?
>
>  Against. Certainly not a trend to follow into the future.
>
>
>  I am afraid this is true. Glossy style is out for a while and currently one
> of the most popular design on the web. If we go for future release we must
> be creating that future, we have to put that future there and later make it
> be a reality.
>
>  cheers, Erno
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[SzerencseFia]

Troy James Sobotka wrote:

4) The uniform Metacity to GTK Patel window is top shelf, even if a bit
   OSX.  Another +1 from me.

What image are you refering to here? 



The manner in which the top window border is indistinguishable between
the lower interface box.
  
Previously I worked on a design and it might give some new idea for 
Hardy now.

http://szerencsefia.googlepages.com/DarkCaramel_nautilus.png/DarkCaramel_nautilus-full.jpg
Comments?


6) Glossy is done like dinner.  It is completely mooky to keep following
   that path, as it was way back in Edgy.

Sorry, but I don't understand that sentence. Are you for or againt gloss?



Against.  Certainly not a trend to follow into the future.

  
I am afraid this is true. Glossy style is out for a while and currently 
one of the most popular design on the web. If we go for future release 
we must be creating that future, we have to put that future there and 
later make it be a reality.


cheers, Erno
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Re: [ubuntu-art] [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme

[xl cheese]

I really like that one too. One question.  Are we dead set on using black?  How 
about a Very dark, almost black, shade of brown?  Something between pantone 418 
and 419... http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/xl_cheese/darkbrown.jpg That 
would help soften the theme up a bit.

> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:00:34 +0100> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]> CC: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] 
> [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme> > ..on or around Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 
> 12:10:54PM -0500, Matthew Nuzum said:> > On Nov 7, 2007 12:14 AM, Troy James 
> Sobotka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > IMHO, I like these:> > 
> http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png>
>  > agreed. this is the best use of black (in itself) i've seen on this list> 
> so far. the soft matte gradiant is very easy on the eyes - a most important > 
> characteristic. i also like how that black isn't pretending to be some> 
> corporeal material, like glass or chrome. > > it also shows-up just how 
> caramel and glossy the existing icon> theme is..> > what is the best 
> candidate we have right now for an icon replacement?> > julian> > -- > 
> http://julianoliver.com> http://selectparks.net> emails containing HTML will 
> not be read.> > > > -- > ubuntu-art mailing list> 
> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com> 
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
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Re: [ubuntu-art] [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme

[Julian Oliver]

..on or around Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 12:10:54PM -0500, Matthew Nuzum said:
> On Nov 7, 2007 12:14 AM, Troy James Sobotka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> IMHO, I like these:
> http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png

agreed. this is the best use of black (in itself) i've seen on this list
so far. the soft matte gradiant is very easy on the eyes - a most important 
characteristic. i also like how that black isn't pretending to be some
corporeal material, like glass or chrome. 

it also shows-up just how caramel and glossy the existing icon
theme is..

what is the best candidate we have right now for an icon replacement?

julian

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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[tonic]

On Fri, 2007-11-09 at 09:25 +0100, Günther Beyer wrote:
> Hey Nick and all others.
> 
> Unfortunately this is only a mockup. I'm not quite into GTK hacking, so
> I'm not shure, what is actually possible and what istn't. But why not
> aim a little higher?
> 
> Why should we separate the dragable windowhead and the window content? I
> think this is much more confusing. Look at an Evolution window for
> example. Because of all those buttons, labels, lines, separators or
> tabs, I sometimes don't know, where one window ends and an other begins.
> 
> Why not drad the window at every point, where there is no label or icon?

Complex, applications and/or {GTK,QT,TCL/TK,...}? would need to pass
clicks back to the window manager if the click is on empty space. That
or the window manager needs to be informed of the inactive areas in a
window that are valid places for clicks to start a move action.

There seems to be a lot of resistance to the idea.

tonic


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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Günther Beyer]

Hey Nick and all others.

Unfortunately this is only a mockup. I'm not quite into GTK hacking, so
I'm not shure, what is actually possible and what istn't. But why not
aim a little higher?

Why should we separate the dragable windowhead and the window content? I
think this is much more confusing. Look at an Evolution window for
example. Because of all those buttons, labels, lines, separators or
tabs, I sometimes don't know, where one window ends and an other begins.

Why not drad the window at every point, where there is no label or icon?
Where are the C and GTK gurus? Shouldn't the theme be pleasing for the
eye AND the use?

Thanks for feedback and cheerz
Günther

Am Donnerstag, den 08.11.2007, 20:37 +0100 schrieb Nick Bauermeister:
> Günther Beyer schrieb:
> > Here's a first test:
> >
> > http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png
> >   
> That looks very nice. Is it a mockup or a "real" GTK theme?
> I love "clean" themes (although it has been been pointed out in this
> thread, that it tends to confuse people as where you can drag the
> window, I wonder how many people do not know they have to move their
> pointer to the titlebar?) and the panel looks nice as well.
> And the wallpaper shows how well it would fit an orange color palette.
> 
> btw: is it OK to "publish" this in a blog or the forums? I think we need
> to raise more publicity to this. Having mockups like this or the one
> from Neil Patel is always a good source of inspiration. So hopefully we
> can get more people to work on this.
> 


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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Nick Bauermeister]

Günther Beyer schrieb:
> Here's a first test:
>
> http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png
>   

That looks very nice. Is it a mockup or a "real" GTK theme?
I love "clean" themes (although it has been been pointed out in this thread, 
that it tends to confuse people as where you can drag the window, I wonder how 
many people do not know they have to move their pointer to the titlebar?) and 
the panel looks nice as well.
And the wallpaper shows how well it would fit an orange color palette.

btw: is it OK to "publish" this in a blog or the forums?
I think we need to raise more publicity to this. Having mockups like this or 
the one from Neil Patel is always a good source of inspiration. So hopefully we 
can get more people to work on this.


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Andreas Nilsson]

xl cheese wrote:
> Speaking of changes to gnome.  I can think of two small ones that 
> would make a huge difference.
>  
> 1.  Ability to add a gradient to the panel bar w/o pixmaping it.
> 2.  Ability to grab a window from both the metacity title bar as well 
> as the blank space on the menubar.  Perhaps even the blank space on 
> the tool bar. 
Hi!
This is on the roadmap for GNOME (although first for 2.24).
http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap/Artwork
- Andreas

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Re: [ubuntu-art] [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme

[tonic]

As an example of the problems faced. Open up the GIMP or Inkscape in a
dark theme. You may notice some of the tool icons become difficult to
identify, particularly in Inkscape.

tonic


On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 14:14 -0500, Corey Woodworth wrote:
> I agree, as much as I like dark themes, there are just too many kinks
> to work out. I do like the idea of packaging an aditional dark theme
> with hardy though. It would be a good base to build from if we wanted
> to make a dark theme default in hardy+1 
> 
> Corey
> 
> On Nov 7, 2007 1:50 PM, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 07/11/2007, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Nov 7, 2007 12:14 AM, Troy James Sobotka
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> Another problem with dark themes is a purely
> technical one. I've done a
> handful dark themes myself, but they always
> end up with small glitches
> here and there because not all apps are
> designed to respect the theme 
> 100% This makes for a bit of an amateurish
> feel in the long run. That is
> not acceptable for Hardy.
> 
> I always seem to find myself in agreement with
> Mikkel's observations
> and conclusions.
> 
> One thing we may want to consider is quickly getting a
> dark theme in place in Hardy so that by Alpha 1, which
> is released November 29th, we can start getting bug
> reports on these problems.
> 
> This could be as simple as including the ubuntu-studio
> theme, or it could be more advanced. I think the key
> is to get something in soon. Core devs are *already*
> running hardy, and in large part, they (not us) will
> need to help identify and communicate these problems
> to upstream. 
> 
> I can personally attest that a dark theme can be
> usable and very attractive. It is challenging to
> achieve a balance and to get your applications working
> and looking good. The beauty of a dark theme is it
> draws your eyes to your work, which will have a
> lighter color, and in a way relegates the controls and
> chrome to a less prominent positions without actually
> putting them in an unusual or unexpected place.
> 
> This is exactly my problem with dark themes - the contrast
> between the surroundings  and the document I edit is too big.
> My eyes get sore after a few hours.
> 
> For hacking in GEdit this is not a big problem because I can
> have a dark theme there too, but for OpenOffice I just *need*
> that white backgound. It is silly to have a wysiwyg editor
> where there colors are not what other people will see. 
> 
> 
> An additional challenge with this type of functional
> art is to not be too clever. It still needs to be
> functional. 
> 
> Hmm... that might be a cool name for the new theme:
> functional-art.
> 
> On top of my previous points I simply do not believe that we
> can smooth out the rough edges (non-theme-compliant-apps) on a
> dark theme in 6 months. Hardy should be enterprise level and
> we cannot achieve that on a dark theme in that time frame.
> Fixing the apps require real developers, not just themers, and
> we are really short on those. 
> 
> 
> 
> Please not that I really do like dark themes. Maybe we should
> just bundle a dark version of the final theme.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Tiago Souza]

Hey, but didn't UDS chose Tango guidelines? If this still can change,
what does that means (UDS = Tango)?

Cheers,
T.

On Nov 7, 2007 4:37 PM, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 07/11/2007, Can K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > What do you think of this icon set: http://art.gnome.org/themes/icon/759
> > > It contains only a few, but i really like the folder icon.
> > >
> > > (sorry if i have sent two mails, but i'm a bit confused by mailing
> lists)
> >
> > That's even worse than the current icon set! I've a question to all of us:
> Is Ubuntu bound to the Tango guidelines?
>
> No
>
> > From my point of view, they're quite unprogressive for a modern Desktop
> OS. Tango icons always look too much comic-like and childish (in fact, this
> is a good criterion for Tango to be the default look of Edubuntu).
> > Can't we just release from the Tango dogmas and create something different
> and new (but yet regocnizable as Ubuntu of course)?
>
>  No. Not "just". It is a *huge* undertaking creating an icon set from
> scratch (atleast if you want more or less full coverage).
>
> > I don't think this will be possible if we still stick to Tango! Or will
> there be no discussion about this topic...?
>
> Are we not discussing it? "This is not an argument"  ;-P
>
> Cheers,
> Mikkel
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Josué Alcalde González]

El mié, 07-11-2007 a las 16:09 -0500, Cory K. escribió:
> 
> Josué Alcalde González wrote:
> > I hope something really new.
> >
> > I like this mockup a lot:
> > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=31128
> >   
> Unfortunately that requires major changes to GNOME.
> 
Perhaps it is not posible to put menus in the top-left corner, but all
the other things are posible, I think.

It is original.



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[xl cheese]

Speaking of changes to gnome.  I can think of two small ones that would make a 
huge difference.
 
1.  Ability to add a gradient to the panel bar w/o pixmaping it.
2.  Ability to grab a window from both the metacity title bar as well as the 
blank space on the menubar.  Perhaps even the blank space on the tool bar.  
 
 



> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:09:01 -0500> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 
> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme> > > > 
> Josué Alcalde González wrote:> > I hope something really new.> >> > I like 
> this mockup a lot:> > 
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=31128> > > Unfortunately 
> that requires major changes to GNOME.> > -- > ubuntu-art mailing list> 
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Cory K.]

Josué Alcalde González wrote:
> I hope something really new.
>
> I like this mockup a lot:
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=31128
>   
Unfortunately that requires major changes to GNOME.

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[ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Josué Alcalde González]

I hope something really new.

I like this mockup a lot:
http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=31128


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 07/11/2007, Can K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What do you think of this icon set: http://art.gnome.org/themes/icon/759
> > It contains only a few, but i really like the folder icon.
> >
> > (sorry if i have sent two mails, but i'm a bit confused by mailing
> > lists)
>
>
> That's even worse than the current icon set! I've a question to all of us:
> Is Ubuntu bound to the Tango guidelines?


No

>From my point of view, they're quite unprogressive for a modern Desktop OS.
> Tango icons always look too much comic-like and childish (in fact, this is a
> good criterion for Tango to be the default look of Edubuntu).

Can't we just release from the Tango dogmas and create something different
> and new (but yet regocnizable as Ubuntu of course)?


 No. Not "just". It is a *huge* undertaking creating an icon set from
scratch (atleast if you want more or less full coverage).

I don't think this will be possible if we still stick to Tango! Or will
> there be no discussion about this topic...?


Are we not discussing it? "This is not an argument"  ;-P

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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Corey Woodworth]

Can we do a gentle noise or noise+blur texture in cairo, like in your
background? I thing gloss is on the way out too, but it is better than plain
jane flat colors. A subtle texture though would be very cool! Just so long
as it doesn't come off as a rip off of that old Mac brushed metal theme, it
would have to be more subtle than that.

Corey

On Nov 7, 2007 2:16 PM, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On 07/11/2007, Andreas Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > > On 07/11/2007, *Andreas Nilsson* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > > > On 07/11/2007, *Troy James Sobotka* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I somewhat agree with you. I think Tango is great, but I don't
> > think
> > > > that it is "Ubuntuish" in any way.
> > > Hi Mikkel!
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Andreas! :-)
> > >
> > > I guess the elegance I am looking for is something like (this goes for
> > > both icons+gtk+metacity):
> > >
> > >  * Touch of realism (not naturalism)
> > >  * Simplicity
> > >  * Minimal number of distinct features, both on a per-icon level and
> > > the desktop as a whole
> > >  * Something that you will instantly recognize as Ubuntu
> > >
> > > Where I feel Tango takes another direction is specifically in points 1
> >
> > > and 4.
> > Give me some time and I'll do some experiments and see what I can come
> > up with.
> > Ideally it would be great to have something that looked very
> > distinctive, but didn't stick out like a sore thumb from the rest of the
> >
> > desktop.
>
>
> +1. Looking forward to see what you conjure  :-)
>
> > I just want to throw in a frequently found thing in mockups around the
> > > web. Monochrome notification icons. Like the ones I attached. I think
> > > it is a great way to reduce the visual clutter. Perhaps we could use
> > > it even more extensively than that - maybe replace a some of the "less
> > > important icons" throughout the desktop with monochrome versions. That
> > > could be alternative solution instead to disabling all icons in menus.
> >
> > I think this is a cool idea and it was something that Lasse, Kenneth and
> > myself discussed last week as well.
> > We need a good solution on how to handle Pidgin status in monochrome
> > though. mpt was going to show me how Adium solved it, but we ran out of
> > time. :/
> > We also need a good technical solution on how to solve this. Should the
> > notification area pick up it's own set of icons? Or if we just replace
> > them in our theme, how do we solve it for banshee/rhythmbox that tends
> > to just stick their app icon in the notification area (and yes, that is
> > kind of a ugly behavior)?
>
>
> Yes, the technical aspects concern me (let me think about them) . I think
> it is a good policy to try and enforce a monochrome systray at least.
>
> Then we could simply compile a cynical list of "important" vs "less
> important" icons and use monochrome (or low contrast) icons for them
> throughout the rest of the desktop.
>
> Cheers,
> Mikkel
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 07/11/2007, Andreas Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > On 07/11/2007, *Andreas Nilsson* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > > On 07/11/2007, *Troy James Sobotka* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> >
> > >
> > > I somewhat agree with you. I think Tango is great, but I don't
> think
> > > that it is "Ubuntuish" in any way.
> > Hi Mikkel!
> >
> >
> > Hi Andreas! :-)
> >
> > I guess the elegance I am looking for is something like (this goes for
> > both icons+gtk+metacity):
> >
> >  * Touch of realism (not naturalism)
> >  * Simplicity
> >  * Minimal number of distinct features, both on a per-icon level and
> > the desktop as a whole
> >  * Something that you will instantly recognize as Ubuntu
> >
> > Where I feel Tango takes another direction is specifically in points 1
> > and 4.
> Give me some time and I'll do some experiments and see what I can come
> up with.
> Ideally it would be great to have something that looked very
> distinctive, but didn't stick out like a sore thumb from the rest of the
> desktop.


+1. Looking forward to see what you conjure  :-)

> I just want to throw in a frequently found thing in mockups around the
> > web. Monochrome notification icons. Like the ones I attached. I think
> > it is a great way to reduce the visual clutter. Perhaps we could use
> > it even more extensively than that - maybe replace a some of the "less
> > important icons" throughout the desktop with monochrome versions. That
> > could be alternative solution instead to disabling all icons in menus.
> I think this is a cool idea and it was something that Lasse, Kenneth and
> myself discussed last week as well.
> We need a good solution on how to handle Pidgin status in monochrome
> though. mpt was going to show me how Adium solved it, but we ran out of
> time. :/
> We also need a good technical solution on how to solve this. Should the
> notification area pick up it's own set of icons? Or if we just replace
> them in our theme, how do we solve it for banshee/rhythmbox that tends
> to just stick their app icon in the notification area (and yes, that is
> kind of a ugly behavior)?


Yes, the technical aspects concern me (let me think about them) . I think it
is a good policy to try and enforce a monochrome systray at least.

Then we could simply compile a cynical list of "important" vs "less
important" icons and use monochrome (or low contrast) icons for them
throughout the rest of the desktop.

Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme

[Corey Woodworth]

I agree, as much as I like dark themes, there are just too many kinks to
work out. I do like the idea of packaging an aditional dark theme with hardy
though. It would be a good base to build from if we wanted  to make a dark
theme default in hardy+1

Corey

On Nov 7, 2007 1:50 PM, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On 07/11/2007, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 7, 2007 12:14 AM, Troy James Sobotka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > > Another problem with dark themes is a purely technical one. I've done
> > > a
> > > handful dark themes myself, but they always end up with small glitches
> > > here and there because not all apps are designed to respect the theme
> > > 100% This makes for a bit of an amateurish feel in the long run. That
> > > is
> > > not acceptable for Hardy.
> > >
> > > I always seem to find myself in agreement with Mikkel's observations
> > > and conclusions.
> > >
> >
> > One thing we may want to consider is quickly getting a dark theme in
> > place in Hardy so that by Alpha 1, which is released November 29th, we can
> > start getting bug reports on these problems.
> >
> > This could be as simple as including the ubuntu-studio theme, or it
> > could be more advanced. I think the key is to get something in soon. Core
> > devs are *already* running hardy, and in large part, they (not us) will need
> > to help identify and communicate these problems to upstream.
> >
> > I can personally attest that a dark theme can be usable and very
> > attractive. It is challenging to achieve a balance and to get your
> > applications working and looking good. The beauty of a dark theme is it
> > draws your eyes to your work, which will have a lighter color, and in a way
> > relegates the controls and chrome to a less prominent positions without
> > actually putting them in an unusual or unexpected place.
>
>
> This is exactly my problem with dark themes - the contrast between the
> surroundings  and the document I edit is too big. My eyes get sore after a
> few hours.
>
> For hacking in GEdit this is not a big problem because I can have a dark
> theme there too, but for OpenOffice I just *need* that white backgound. It
> is silly to have a wysiwyg editor where there colors are not what other
> people will see.
>
> An additional challenge with this type of functional art is to not be too
> > clever. It still needs to be functional.
> >
> > Hmm... that might be a cool name for the new theme: functional-art.
>
>
> On top of my previous points I simply do not believe that we can smooth
> out the rough edges (non-theme-compliant-apps) on a dark theme in 6 months.
> Hardy should be enterprise level and we cannot achieve that on a dark theme
> in that time frame. Fixing the apps require real developers, not just
> themers, and we are really short on those.
>
>
> Please not that I really do like dark themes. Maybe we should just bundle
> a dark version of the final theme.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Mikkel
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 07/11/2007, Troy James Sobotka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> > I'm not sure what kind of elegance you are looking for,
>
> I don't believe it is a far stretch to suggest that a notion
> of elegant is probably rooted in notions that we dug up from
> the Art Nouveau and Art Deco eras.  Typified by curving line
> work, delicate lines, and like details.
>
> > but a good point
> > for giving a tango-styled icon theme a shot is that is what GNOME
> > upstream is using and a whole bunch of 3rd party developers. [1]. I
> > haven't seen another style for GNOME with the same coverage yet. I think
> > it would be really cool if we could start focusing on the final focus on
> > the remaining bits instead of the 12-14 base icons over and over again.
>
> As much as I completely respect the Tango project and all that it
> has done for GNOME, I would still question the destination.  If we
> end up with a fully Tango'd desktop, I would wonder if that could
> be considered 'bliss'.  Even with 100% coverage, I believe aesthetically
> it is not an ideal route -- and certainly not an ideal route for
> a culture that should probably be priding itself on diversity.
> Consistency for consistency's sake shouldn't be a goal unto itself.



What I also tried to say before was that a theme "consistent" with Tango
would be great. That way Tango  fall back icons wouldn't stand out as much
as they do now.


> Mike Beltzner recently pointed out that the interface unpredictability
> > was the reasoning behind giving Firefox 3 the Vista look on Linux. We're
> > working that issue out with them though.
>
> Probably the greatest point raised.  That said, having a Tango'd Firefox
> is no better in my mind than having the application maintain a distinct
> styling if it is solid.  In Mozilla's case, their work is quite tight.


Firefox looks ok in stock ubuntu because the visual style is similar to the
human one. On a full Tango desktop it stands out like a sore thumb.

Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > 4) The uniform Metacity to GTK Patel window is top shelf, even if a bit
> >OSX.  Another +1 from me.
> >
> > What image are you refering to here?
>
> The manner in which the top window border is indistinguishable between
> the lower interface box.


I like the concept, but the actual example is a bit (read: quite) unfinished
to my eyes.

> 6) Glossy is done like dinner.  It is completely mooky to keep following
> >that path, as it was way back in Edgy.
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't understand that sentence. Are you for or againt
> gloss?
>
> Against.  Certainly not a trend to follow into the future.


But what visual theme then? - I'm game for just about anything. The good
thing about gloss is that it is relatively easy to do. Subtle matte themes
can be quite difficult to get right (but look great). I remember spending a
lot of time on  getting the right dry/dusty silicon feel for the background
in Silicon http://grillbar.org/Silicon/Silicon.png.

Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 07/11/2007, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Nov 7, 2007 12:14 AM, Troy James Sobotka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > Another problem with dark themes is a purely technical one. I've done a
> > handful dark themes myself, but they always end up with small glitches
> > here and there because not all apps are designed to respect the theme
> > 100% This makes for a bit of an amateurish feel in the long run. That is
> > not acceptable for Hardy.
> >
> > I always seem to find myself in agreement with Mikkel's observations
> > and conclusions.
> >
>
> One thing we may want to consider is quickly getting a dark theme in place
> in Hardy so that by Alpha 1, which is released November 29th, we can start
> getting bug reports on these problems.
>
> This could be as simple as including the ubuntu-studio theme, or it could
> be more advanced. I think the key is to get something in soon. Core devs are
> *already* running hardy, and in large part, they (not us) will need to help
> identify and communicate these problems to upstream.
>
> I can personally attest that a dark theme can be usable and very
> attractive. It is challenging to achieve a balance and to get your
> applications working and looking good. The beauty of a dark theme is it
> draws your eyes to your work, which will have a lighter color, and in a way
> relegates the controls and chrome to a less prominent positions without
> actually putting them in an unusual or unexpected place.


This is exactly my problem with dark themes - the contrast between the
surroundings  and the document I edit is too big. My eyes get sore after a
few hours.

For hacking in GEdit this is not a big problem because I can have a dark
theme there too, but for OpenOffice I just *need* that white backgound. It
is silly to have a wysiwyg editor where there colors are not what other
people will see.

An additional challenge with this type of functional art is to not be too
> clever. It still needs to be functional.
>
> Hmm... that might be a cool name for the new theme: functional-art.


On top of my previous points I simply do not believe that we can smooth out
the rough edges (non-theme-compliant-apps) on a dark theme in 6 months.
Hardy should be enterprise level and we cannot achieve that on a dark theme
in that time frame. Fixing the apps require real developers, not just
themers, and we are really short on those.


Please not that I really do like dark themes. Maybe we should just bundle a
dark version of the final theme.


Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Álvaro Medina Ballester]

Yeah, that's a good one. Notification area should be monochrome (or no
more than 3 colours). When you have more than 4 icons, the
notification area becomes too similar to the icons just at the right
of "System" menu. I think that just the apps icons and maybe the gtk
app buttons (save, open, etc..) should be colored.

Cheers.


Álvaro.

2007/11/7, Andreas Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > On 07/11/2007, *Andreas Nilsson* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > > On 07/11/2007, *Troy James Sobotka* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> >
> > >
> > > I somewhat agree with you. I think Tango is great, but I don't think
> > > that it is "Ubuntuish" in any way.
> > Hi Mikkel!
> >
> >
> > Hi Andreas! :-)
> >
> > I guess the elegance I am looking for is something like (this goes for
> > both icons+gtk+metacity):
> >
> >  * Touch of realism (not naturalism)
> >  * Simplicity
> >  * Minimal number of distinct features, both on a per-icon level and
> > the desktop as a whole
> >  * Something that you will instantly recognize as Ubuntu
> >
> > Where I feel Tango takes another direction is specifically in points 1
> > and 4.
> Give me some time and I'll do some experiments and see what I can come
> up with.
> Ideally it would be great to have something that looked very
> distinctive, but didn't stick out like a sore thumb from the rest of the
> desktop.
> > I just want to throw in a frequently found thing in mockups around the
> > web. Monochrome notification icons. Like the ones I attached. I think
> > it is a great way to reduce the visual clutter. Perhaps we could use
> > it even more extensively than that - maybe replace a some of the "less
> > important icons" throughout the desktop with monochrome versions. That
> > could be alternative solution instead to disabling all icons in menus.
> I think this is a cool idea and it was something that Lasse, Kenneth and
> myself discussed last week as well.
> We need a good solution on how to handle Pidgin status in monochrome
> though. mpt was going to show me how Adium solved it, but we ran out of
> time. :/
> We also need a good technical solution on how to solve this. Should the
> notification area pick up it's own set of icons? Or if we just replace
> them in our theme, how do we solve it for banshee/rhythmbox that tends
> to just stick their app icon in the notification area (and yes, that is
> kind of a ugly behavior)?
>
> - Andreas
>
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Álvaro Medina Ballester]

Yeah, I'm agree with you. I have the same opinion about Tango icons.
The people at Iconfactory seems that followed the Tango guidelines. We
have to discuss if we want to take these Ubuntu icons and go further
or try another options(hiperrealistic icons, more Tangoish, etc..).
I'll post some ideas the following 10 days.

Cheers.


Álvaro.

2007/11/7, Can K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > What do you think of this icon set:
> http://art.gnome.org/themes/icon/759
> > It contains only a few, but i really like the folder icon.
> >
> > (sorry if i have sent two mails, but i'm a bit confused by mailing lists)
>
> That's even worse than the current icon set! I've a question to all of us:
> Is Ubuntu bound to the Tango guidelines? From my point of view, they're
> quite unprogressive for a modern Desktop OS. Tango icons always look too
> much comic-like and childish (in fact, this is a good criterion for Tango to
> be the default look of Edubuntu). Can't we just release from the Tango
> dogmas and create something different and new (but yet regocnizable as
> Ubuntu of course)? I don't think this will be possible if we still stick to
> Tango! Or will there be no discussion about this topic...?
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Corey Woodworth]

I agree about Tango. It's nice and all, but I want something more detailed,
realistic, and well, different. I think working off the Oxygen theme
wouldn't be a bad idea since there will already be quite a lot work done on
it. Mime types and actions would already be completed. We'd mostly just have
to make gnome application icons.

I like the idea of monochrome status icons as well. If we start a new theme,
we could make the 32x32 or 48x48 icons and up very detailed SVGs that would
rival Leapord's new 512x512 icons. and everyhing a lower resolution than
that monochrome. (just a thought).

One icon set I tend to use now and again is the Gant and/or Buuf icons. I
certainly wouldn't suggest that these be the default, but what I like about
them is that they feel like little objects and not like icons. Their art has
texture and weight that really sets them apart from all the other ultra
vectorized icon sets. It would be wonderful if we could stylize our icons in
a way that also set them apart from the pack.

Corey

On Nov 7, 2007 11:44 AM, Andreas Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > On 07/11/2007, *Andreas Nilsson* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > > On 07/11/2007, *Troy James Sobotka* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> >
> > >
> > > I somewhat agree with you. I think Tango is great, but I don't
> think
> > > that it is "Ubuntuish" in any way.
> > Hi Mikkel!
> >
> >
> > Hi Andreas! :-)
> >
> > I guess the elegance I am looking for is something like (this goes for
> > both icons+gtk+metacity):
> >
> >  * Touch of realism (not naturalism)
> >  * Simplicity
> >  * Minimal number of distinct features, both on a per-icon level and
> > the desktop as a whole
> >  * Something that you will instantly recognize as Ubuntu
> >
> > Where I feel Tango takes another direction is specifically in points 1
> > and 4.
> Give me some time and I'll do some experiments and see what I can come
> up with.
> Ideally it would be great to have something that looked very
> distinctive, but didn't stick out like a sore thumb from the rest of the
> desktop.
> > I just want to throw in a frequently found thing in mockups around the
> > web. Monochrome notification icons. Like the ones I attached. I think
> > it is a great way to reduce the visual clutter. Perhaps we could use
> > it even more extensively than that - maybe replace a some of the "less
> > important icons" throughout the desktop with monochrome versions. That
> > could be alternative solution instead to disabling all icons in menus.
> I think this is a cool idea and it was something that Lasse, Kenneth and
> myself discussed last week as well.
> We need a good solution on how to handle Pidgin status in monochrome
> though. mpt was going to show me how Adium solved it, but we ran out of
> time. :/
> We also need a good technical solution on how to solve this. Should the
> notification area pick up it's own set of icons? Or if we just replace
> them in our theme, how do we solve it for banshee/rhythmbox that tends
> to just stick their app icon in the notification area (and yes, that is
> kind of a ugly behavior)?
>
> - Andreas
>
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme

[Matthew Nuzum]

On Nov 7, 2007 12:14 AM, Troy James Sobotka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> Another problem with dark themes is a purely technical one. I've done a
> handful dark themes myself, but they always end up with small glitches
> here and there because not all apps are designed to respect the theme
> 100% This makes for a bit of an amateurish feel in the long run. That is
> not acceptable for Hardy.
>
> I always seem to find myself in agreement with Mikkel's observations
> and conclusions.
>

One thing we may want to consider is quickly getting a dark theme in place
in Hardy so that by Alpha 1, which is released November 29th, we can start
getting bug reports on these problems.

This could be as simple as including the ubuntu-studio theme, or it could be
more advanced. I think the key is to get something in soon. Core devs are
*already* running hardy, and in large part, they (not us) will need to help
identify and communicate these problems to upstream.

I can personally attest that a dark theme can be usable and very attractive.
It is challenging to achieve a balance and to get your applications working
and looking good. The beauty of a dark theme is it draws your eyes to your
work, which will have a lighter color, and in a way relegates the controls
and chrome to a less prominent positions without actually putting them in an
unusual or unexpected place.

An additional challenge with this type of functional art is to not be too
clever. It still needs to be functional.

Hmm... that might be a cool name for the new theme: functional-art.

IMHO, I like these:
http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png
http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/11/decisionsdecisionsdecisions-so-many.html

I especially like the way the buttons on this theme look similar to the
keyboard buttons on the new macbook.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Andreas Nilsson]

Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> On 07/11/2007, *Andreas Nilsson* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > On 07/11/2007, *Troy James Sobotka* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>
> >
> > I somewhat agree with you. I think Tango is great, but I don't think
> > that it is "Ubuntuish" in any way.
> Hi Mikkel!
>
>
> Hi Andreas! :-)
>  
> I guess the elegance I am looking for is something like (this goes for 
> both icons+gtk+metacity):
>
>  * Touch of realism (not naturalism)
>  * Simplicity
>  * Minimal number of distinct features, both on a per-icon level and 
> the desktop as a whole
>  * Something that you will instantly recognize as Ubuntu
>
> Where I feel Tango takes another direction is specifically in points 1 
> and 4.
Give me some time and I'll do some experiments and see what I can come 
up with.
Ideally it would be great to have something that looked very 
distinctive, but didn't stick out like a sore thumb from the rest of the 
desktop.
> I just want to throw in a frequently found thing in mockups around the 
> web. Monochrome notification icons. Like the ones I attached. I think 
> it is a great way to reduce the visual clutter. Perhaps we could use 
> it even more extensively than that - maybe replace a some of the "less 
> important icons" throughout the desktop with monochrome versions. That 
> could be alternative solution instead to disabling all icons in menus.
I think this is a cool idea and it was something that Lasse, Kenneth and 
myself discussed last week as well.
We need a good solution on how to handle Pidgin status in monochrome 
though. mpt was going to show me how Adium solved it, but we ran out of 
time. :/
We also need a good technical solution on how to solve this. Should the 
notification area pick up it's own set of icons? Or if we just replace 
them in our theme, how do we solve it for banshee/rhythmbox that tends 
to just stick their app icon in the notification area (and yes, that is 
kind of a ugly behavior)?

- Andreas



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Can K.]

>
> What do you think of this icon set: http://art.gnome.org/themes/icon/759
> It contains only a few, but i really like the folder icon.
>
> (sorry if i have sent two mails, but i'm a bit confused by mailing lists)


That's even worse than the current icon set! I've a question to all of us:
Is Ubuntu bound to the Tango guidelines? From my point of view, they're
quite unprogressive for a modern Desktop OS. Tango icons always look too
much comic-like and childish (in fact, this is a good criterion for Tango to
be the default look of Edubuntu). Can't we just release from the Tango
dogmas and create something different and new (but yet regocnizable as
Ubuntu of course)? I don't think this will be possible if we still stick to
Tango! Or will there be no discussion about this topic...?
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[xl cheese]

 

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com> Subject: Re: 
> [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:02:15 +0100> CC: 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:54:18 xl cheese wrote:> > 
> But diagonals do look good in real themes. These are pixmap themes.> > 
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Schwermetall?content=55578> > 
> http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/62434-2.jpg> > 
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/OrangeLiNstaBlackPlastic?content> 
> >=62434> > I still think that a simple diagonal line is not the best idea. 
> perhaps there > is a way to use diagonals at either side and connect them 
> with something > curvy, not sure though.> > >> > The diagonals don't 
> necessarily have to go from corner to corner to look> > good. Notice the 
> similarities between the buttons in the> > Orangelinstablackplastic theme and 
> the human folder icons... ;)> >> > In any case we are also planning on 
> creating a new icon theme as > well...without the gloss this time.> > --> 
> Kenneth
Cool.  Maybe you can post up some preliminary icon work that we can use to 
influence the theme.  Does this also mean that diagonal gradients and gloss are 
not areas we should spend time on?
 
 
-wes
_
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Jan Niklas Hasse]

What do you think of this icon set: http://art.gnome.org/themes/icon/759
It contains only a few, but i really like the folder icon.

(sorry if i have sent two mails, but i'm a bit confused by mailing lists)

2007/11/7, xl cheese <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>
>
> --
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
> > Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme
> > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:02:15 +0100
> > CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:54:18 xl cheese wrote:
> > > But diagonals do look good in real themes. These are pixmap themes.
> > > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Schwermetall?content=55578
> > > http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/62434-2.jpg
> > >
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/OrangeLiNstaBlackPlastic?content
> > >=62434
> >
> > I still think that a simple diagonal line is not the best idea. perhaps
> there
> > is a way to use diagonals at either side and connect them with something
>
> > curvy, not sure though.
> >
> > >
> > > The diagonals don't necessarily have to go from corner to corner to
> look
> > > good. Notice the similarities between the buttons in the
> > > Orangelinstablackplastic theme and the human folder icons... ;)
> > >
> >
> > In any case we are also planning on creating a new icon theme as
> > well...without the gloss this time.
> >
> > --
> > Kenneth
>
> Cool.  Maybe you can post up some preliminary icon work that we can use to
> influence the theme.  Does this also mean that diagonal gradients and gloss
> are not areas we should spend time on?
>
>
> -wes
>
>
> --
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> it 
> now!<http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Troy James Sobotka]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> I'm not sure what kind of elegance you are looking for,

I don't believe it is a far stretch to suggest that a notion
of elegant is probably rooted in notions that we dug up from
the Art Nouveau and Art Deco eras.  Typified by curving line
work, delicate lines, and like details.

> but a good point
> for giving a tango-styled icon theme a shot is that is what GNOME
> upstream is using and a whole bunch of 3rd party developers. [1]. I
> haven't seen another style for GNOME with the same coverage yet. I think
> it would be really cool if we could start focusing on the final focus on
> the remaining bits instead of the 12-14 base icons over and over again.

As much as I completely respect the Tango project and all that it
has done for GNOME, I would still question the destination.  If we
end up with a fully Tango'd desktop, I would wonder if that could
be considered 'bliss'.  Even with 100% coverage, I believe aesthetically
it is not an ideal route -- and certainly not an ideal route for
a culture that should probably be priding itself on diversity.
Consistency for consistency's sake shouldn't be a goal unto itself.

> Mike Beltzner recently pointed out that the interface unpredictability
> was the reasoning behind giving Firefox 3 the Vista look on Linux. We're
> working that issue out with them though.

Probably the greatest point raised.  That said, having a Tango'd Firefox
is no better in my mind than having the application maintain a distinct
styling if it is solid.  In Mozilla's case, their work is quite tight.

Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> 4) The uniform Metacity to GTK Patel window is top shelf, even if a bit
>OSX.  Another +1 from me.
> 
> What image are you refering to here? 

The manner in which the top window border is indistinguishable between
the lower interface box.

> 6) Glossy is done like dinner.  It is completely mooky to keep following
>that path, as it was way back in Edgy.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't understand that sentence. Are you for or againt gloss?

Against.  Certainly not a trend to follow into the future.


Sincerely,
TJS
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 07/11/2007, Andreas Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> > On 07/11/2007, *Troy James Sobotka* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 2) The heavy Crayola outlining of all buttons / tabs / etc. is
> >completely counter any notion of elegance or grace.  It is
> perhaps
> >the weakest element of Tango, and it simply makes work look
> >bold and clunky.  Assuming a general audience, we can assume that
> >they can find a button with a fine line.  Please let the caustic
> >outlines of Clearlooks / Tango / et al die.  It is just weak.
> >
> >
> >
> > I somewhat agree with you. I think Tango is great, but I don't think
> > that it is "Ubuntuish" in any way.
> Hi Mikkel!


Hi Andreas! :-)

I'm not sure what kind of elegance you are looking for,


Right, I could have been more clear... I guess what I mean by "Ubuntuish" is
the more realistic (not naturalistic) look combined with small "monochrome"
(white+orange) notifications/emblems.

I guess the elegance I am looking for is something like (this goes for both
icons+gtk+metacity):

 * Touch of realism (not naturalism)
 * Simplicity
 * Minimal number of distinct features, both on a per-icon level and the
desktop as a whole
 * Something that you will instantly recognize as Ubuntu

Where I feel Tango takes another direction is specifically in points 1 and
4.

I am not saying that we cannot build something on top of Tango/Tangerine
that fullfills these ideas, but that was just not my first idea.

but a good point
> for giving a tango-styled icon theme a shot is that is what GNOME
> upstream is using and a whole bunch of 3rd party developers. [1]. I
> haven't seen another style for GNOME with the same coverage yet.


Granted, and that is a huge plus for Tango/Tangerine.

I think
> it would be really cool if we could start focusing on the final focus on
> the remaining bits instead of the 12-14 base icons over and over again.


Right, we should build on top of an existing icon set and polish it off to
fit our design goals.

Mike Beltzner recently pointed out that the interface unpredictability
> was the reasoning behind giving Firefox 3 the Vista look on Linux. We're
> working that issue out with them though.
> I find the Pages/Numbers interface [2] and the work of Jasper [3] quite
> nice and find it quite elegant.
> I guess what I find most attractive about Apple's interfaces is the fact
> that it's clean. No icons in neither menus or pushbuttons and smart
> designed interfaces.


While I do follow you on the no-icons-in menu (at atleast only for a select
few) is a good idea, implementing it might be harder.

I think it is possible to disable all icons in the menus, but it is much
harder to hack each and every app to only show for selected items.

I just want to throw in a frequently found thing in mockups around the web.
Monochrome notification icons. Like the ones I attached. I think it is a
great way to reduce the visual clutter. Perhaps we could use it even more
extensively than that - maybe replace a some of the "less important icons"
throughout the desktop with monochrome versions. That could be alternative
solution instead to disabling all icons in menus.

Is it possible to create monochrome Tango icons? I guess it is, but it is
outside the range of my artistic abilities.

Cheers,
Mikkel



> 1. http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Showroom
> 2. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Pages3.png
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/Numbers.png
> 3. http://www.jasperhauser.nl/icon/
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Emrah Ünal]

Hey all

Call me a heretic, I didn't like that diagonal gloss on buttons. I agree
with Cimi, it's not usable.
There's been many attempts to find an original kind of "gloss", if we're
up to find another, this one should be much different from previous
ones.

When I was experimenting with different kinds of gradients on buttons,
it turned out like this, kind of swirly and not-that-obvious-gloss:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/1902730514/
(currently fully desaturated, implementing to a color palette is not a
problem)

But as for a default theme, it seems we have no other choices to follow
the Tango guidelines, at least in short term.


emrahunal

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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Andreas Nilsson]

Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> On 07/11/2007, *Troy James Sobotka* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> 
> 2) The heavy Crayola outlining of all buttons / tabs / etc. is
>completely counter any notion of elegance or grace.  It is perhaps
>the weakest element of Tango, and it simply makes work look
>bold and clunky.  Assuming a general audience, we can assume that
>they can find a button with a fine line.  Please let the caustic
>outlines of Clearlooks / Tango / et al die.  It is just weak.
>
>
>
> I somewhat agree with you. I think Tango is great, but I don't think 
> that it is "Ubuntuish" in any way.
Hi Mikkel!
I'm not sure what kind of elegance you are looking for, but a good point 
for giving a tango-styled icon theme a shot is that is what GNOME 
upstream is using and a whole bunch of 3rd party developers. [1]. I 
haven't seen another style for GNOME with the same coverage yet. I think 
it would be really cool if we could start focusing on the final focus on 
the remaining bits instead of the 12-14 base icons over and over again.
Mike Beltzner recently pointed out that the interface unpredictability 
was the reasoning behind giving Firefox 3 the Vista look on Linux. We're 
working that issue out with them though.
I find the Pages/Numbers interface [2] and the work of Jasper [3] quite 
nice and find it quite elegant.
I guess what I find most attractive about Apple's interfaces is the fact 
that it's clean. No icons in neither menus or pushbuttons and smart 
designed interfaces.

I like the work Kenneth and others have done on Oxygen, but I'm afraid 
it's something that is KDE4 specific and I think the aim is for it to be 
included in Kubuntu in Hardy+1.


1. http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Showroom
2. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Pages3.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/Numbers.png
3. http://www.jasperhauser.nl/icon/

- Andreas
>
>
> 3) The radius of Patel's buttons is a lovely compliment of both
>subtlety and other features is wonderful.  The subtlety of the
>linework is something to aim for.  Even the buttons could use
>some lightening on the lines.  Metacity 2.0 can even do the windows
>to a similar radii, but the antialiasing makes it rather clunky
>looking.  We would need to resolve this to go with that lovely
>radius on the windows.
>
>
> There is some elegance in the Oxygen screenshot Günther posted here 
> (mostly the top one) 
> http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/11/decisionsdecisionsdecisions-so-many.html
>
> I do not feel ashamed of being inspired by other artists. Both oxygen 
> and openmoko contains some good stuff I think we should let us inspire 
> by. We can still move in an original direction if the original 
> inspiration was found in other work.
>
>
> 4) The uniform Metacity to GTK Patel window is top shelf, even if
> a bit
>OSX.  Another +1 from me.
>
>
> What  image are you refering to here?
>
> 5) I dare say that I disagree with the esteemed MacSlow on the
> point of
>differing radii on the various controls.  Contrast is a wonderful
>thing.  And god knows we have lived long enough in the
> monochromatic
>Ubuntu world.
>
>
> +1 Visual contrast of forms is a way to make the widgets more 
> distinct. Doing it too much results in visual clutter -- needles to say.
>
> 6) Glossy is done like dinner.  It is completely mooky to keep
> following
>that path, as it was way back in Edgy.
>
>
> Sorry, but I don't understand that sentence. Are you for or againt 
> gloss? :-)
>
> Back to work, cheers
> Mikkel
>


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[ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Günther Beyer]

I compiled a quick list of websites, using orange, black and white.
Might help for some inspiration.

• http://spousenotes.com/
• http://www.denyingphoenix.com/
• http://www.enhancedlabs.com/main/index.html
• http://www.fluoro.com.au/
• http://www.impactvisual.ca/
• http://www.inmo-site.net/
• http://www.formag.sk/
• http://www.ellislab.com/

tonic: patterns could be interessting, but please, not those stripes
Suse used in the past.

cheerz
Günther


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[tonic]

Those reflections are pretty nice. The more subtle elements are good if
people are genuinely moving away from gloss. I think gentle curves for
reflections are better, we have enough hard edges on the screen as it
is.

tonic

On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 00:21 +0100, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> On 06/11/2007, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> On 06/11/2007, Kenneth Wimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:12:12 Andrea Cimitan
> wrote:
> > I can confirm those words another time. ;)
> > Diagonal stripes could be fun when you have a lot of
> buttons with a
> > fixed aspect (see gcalctool for example), but when
> you have an app with 
> > a lot of buttons of various aspects (some thin, some
> fat etc etc) the
> > result is a _really_ boring theme. Unconsinstent
> too.
> >
> > Don't waste your time now ;)
> >
> 
> I agree completely with this. It might look nifty in a
> certain mockup but I am 
> not sure it would be good in a real theme.
> 
> 
> To late I already tried it out ;-P
> 
> I agree that the look gets confusing with various size
> buttons, because you get diagonal reflections in all sorts of
> different angles - this makes it confusing for the eye. 
> 
> I am going to try a few other alternative gradients - diagonal
> alternatives (fx fixed tilt) and some inspired by circle
> projections.
> 
> I have some preliminary results put up on:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikkelKamstrupErlandsen/HardyThemeStorm
> 
> But is just a *very* quick hack only aimed at testing various
> reflections. 
> 
> 
> 
> I will put up some more over the next days. If other people are
> intersted in theme-engine-hacking I suggest you take a quick look at
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikkelKamstrupErlandsen/ThemeEngineTricks -
> which should get you going pretty quickly.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mikkel


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[tonic]

Almost all of those diagonals were curves anyway.


On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 12:28 -0500, Corey Woodworth wrote:
> The murrina theme may not support those diagnal gradiants, but It does
> have nice up turned gradients on the sides of buttons. 

They are nice. It is probably possible to grow a diagonal at a fixed
angle between two curves.

> Probably much more functional than the diagnal gradient. I imagine the
> diagnol ones would look wierd on something like a progress bar that
> changes sizes.

Theme engines can probably work around this.

tonic


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[tonic]

On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 09:37 +0100, Günther Beyer wrote:

> I'm still missing that little piece of "outstanding" - the Ubuntulook.
> The diagonal highlights are a good start, but like dark colour, they
> might be problematic at some point.

The hard part about diagonal highlights is getting the same angle on all
widgets. One of the mockups showing diagonal highlights had a whole
bunch of lines going in a jumble of directions.

>  Any ideas for "outstanding", yet
> somehow familiar? What about the orange and black colours?
> 

Faint procedural patterns.


tonic


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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 07/11/2007, Troy James Sobotka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 2) The heavy Crayola outlining of all buttons / tabs / etc. is
>completely counter any notion of elegance or grace.  It is perhaps
>the weakest element of Tango, and it simply makes work look
>bold and clunky.  Assuming a general audience, we can assume that
>they can find a button with a fine line.  Please let the caustic
>outlines of Clearlooks / Tango / et al die.  It is just weak.



I somewhat agree with you. I think Tango is great, but I don't think that it
is "Ubuntuish" in any way.


3) The radius of Patel's buttons is a lovely compliment of both
>subtlety and other features is wonderful.  The subtlety of the
>linework is something to aim for.  Even the buttons could use
>some lightening on the lines.  Metacity 2.0 can even do the windows
>to a similar radii, but the antialiasing makes it rather clunky
>looking.  We would need to resolve this to go with that lovely
>radius on the windows.


There is some elegance in the Oxygen screenshot Günther posted here (mostly
the top one)
http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/11/decisionsdecisionsdecisions-so-many.html

I do not feel ashamed of being inspired by other artists. Both oxygen and
openmoko contains some good stuff I think we should let us inspire by. We
can still move in an original direction if the original inspiration was
found in other work.


4) The uniform Metacity to GTK Patel window is top shelf, even if a bit
>OSX.  Another +1 from me.


What  image are you refering to here?

5) I dare say that I disagree with the esteemed MacSlow on the point of
>differing radii on the various controls.  Contrast is a wonderful
>thing.  And god knows we have lived long enough in the monochromatic
>Ubuntu world.


+1 Visual contrast of forms is a way to make the widgets more distinct.
Doing it too much results in visual clutter -- needles to say.

6) Glossy is done like dinner.  It is completely mooky to keep following
>that path, as it was way back in Edgy.


Sorry, but I don't understand that sentence. Are you for or againt gloss?
:-)

Back to work, cheers
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Günther Beyer]

Troy and Mikkel are right. Although a dark interface is nice and maybe
fresh, but there are some problems with some applications and icons here
and there. I didn't thought about that. So much for the black theme.

Still I really love the mac-stile of interface design, I don't think we
should follow this path to far. Leopard feels somehow perfect concerning
these bright, aesthetic widgets with rounded corners. There is also KDE
4 coming, with a similar standard interface-stile.

I'm still missing that little piece of "outstanding" - the Ubuntulook.
The diagonal highlights are a good start, but like dark colour, they
might be problematic at some point. Any ideas for "outstanding", yet
somehow familiar? What about the orange and black colours?

Back to the storyboard. Thanks for your feedback.

Günther


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Re: [ubuntu-art] [Ubuntu-Art] Hardy GTK theme

[Troy James Sobotka]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
Another problem with dark themes is a purely technical one. I've done a
handful dark themes myself, but they always end up with small glitches
here and there because not all apps are designed to respect the theme
100% This makes for a bit of an amateurish feel in the long run. That is
not acceptable for Hardy.


I always seem to find myself in agreement with Mikkel's observations
and conclusions.

- - From the flurry of 'gtk' observations:
1) Dark themes always break, as per Mikkel's observations.  It was a
   weak point on Ubuntu Studio's theme, and would probably be a crook
   in this one.  In particular, until the panel theme gtkrc issue is
   resolved, there will almost always be some strange icon residue
   at the very least.
2) The heavy Crayola outlining of all buttons / tabs / etc. is
   completely counter any notion of elegance or grace.  It is perhaps
   the weakest element of Tango, and it simply makes work look
   bold and clunky.  Assuming a general audience, we can assume that
   they can find a button with a fine line.  Please let the caustic
   outlines of Clearlooks / Tango / et al die.  It is just weak.
3) The radius of Patel's buttons is a lovely compliment of both
   subtlety and other features is wonderful.  The subtlety of the
   linework is something to aim for.  Even the buttons could use
   some lightening on the lines.  Metacity 2.0 can even do the windows
   to a similar radii, but the antialiasing makes it rather clunky
   looking.  We would need to resolve this to go with that lovely
   radius on the windows.
4) The uniform Metacity to GTK Patel window is top shelf, even if a bit
   OSX.  Another +1 from me.
5) I dare say that I disagree with the esteemed MacSlow on the point of
   differing radii on the various controls.  Contrast is a wonderful
   thing.  And god knows we have lived long enough in the monochromatic
   Ubuntu world.
6) Glossy is done like dinner.  It is completely mooky to keep following
   that path, as it was way back in Edgy.
7) Another +1 to Ken for citing that polling people is pretty useless
   in the context that the people you are polling are already using
   Ubuntu.  Further, one can only guess what an elephant would look
   like if designed by polling (or some HIG for that matter).
8) Forest through the trees.  Remember that the GTK is one component
   of the entire presentation.  Perhaps we should be considering the
   other elements that are playing in that symphony?

Back to the grinder...
TJS
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Troy James Sobotka]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen wrote:
> Another problem with dark themes is a purely technical one. I've done a
> handful dark themes myself, but they always end up with small glitches
> here and there because not all apps are designed to respect the theme
> 100% This makes for a bit of an amateurish feel in the long run. That is
> not acceptable for Hardy.


I always seem to find myself in agreement with Mikkel's observations
and conclusions.

- From the flurry of 'gtk' observations:
1) Dark themes always break, as per Mikkel's observations.  It was a
   weak point on Ubuntu Studio's theme, and would probably be a crook
   in this one.  In particular, until the panel theme gtkrc issue is
   resolved, there will almost always be some strange icon residue
   at the very least.
2) The heavy Crayola outlining of all buttons / tabs / etc. is
   completely counter any notion of elegance or grace.  It is perhaps
   the weakest element of Tango, and it simply makes work look
   bold and clunky.  Assuming a general audience, we can assume that
   they can find a button with a fine line.  Please let the caustic
   outlines of Clearlooks / Tango / et al die.  It is just weak.
3) The radius of Patel's buttons is a lovely compliment of both
   subtlety and other features is wonderful.  The subtlety of the
   linework is something to aim for.  Even the buttons could use
   some lightening on the lines.  Metacity 2.0 can even do the windows
   to a similar radii, but the antialiasing makes it rather clunky
   looking.  We would need to resolve this to go with that lovely
   radius on the windows.
4) The uniform Metacity to GTK Patel window is top shelf, even if a bit
   OSX.  Another +1 from me.
5) I dare say that I disagree with the esteemed MacSlow on the point of
   differing radii on the various controls.  Contrast is a wonderful
   thing.  And god knows we have lived long enough in the monochromatic
   Ubuntu world.
6) Glossy is done like dinner.  It is completely mooky to keep following
   that path, as it was way back in Edgy.
7) Another +1 to Ken for citing that polling people is pretty useless
   in the context that the people you are polling are already using
   Ubuntu.  Further, one can only guess what an elephant would look
   like if designed by polling (or some HIG for that matter).

Back to the grinder...
TJS
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=fgFD
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Corey Woodworth]

I like those relections, I like 'em alot, especially the fixed angle ones in
the middle of the buttons. I wish they stood out with a bit more contrast
though. I would also propose making the fixed angle reflection curve
slightly at the ends towards becoming parallel with the button's borders.
(get what I mean? I'm sure there is a math word for it but I'm not good with
those)

The only complaint I have about the Murrine engine is when you select any
widget it gets a dotted rectangle border around it. Look at what happens
when you select a widget in the Aurora engine. No dotted rectangle, instead
a gradient emanates from the entire widget. That would be much nicer, but
I'd be for ANY effect other than the dotted rectangle. That seems so 1999 :)
Clearlooks, and probably every other theme but aurora seems to do the dotted
rectangle thing. Its the little details like that, that make me like Aurora
so much even though it does have more glitches than the other engines.
Another exemplary detail is the way check boxes and radio buttons quickly
fade in and out when you select and deselect them.

I do like murrine a lot though and I think it would be a great engine to
start from if we can add polish to those little details. And I love the
striped menu bar! It also seems to be more flexible than most all the other
engines when editing a gtkrc file.

Corey

On Nov 6, 2007 6:21 PM, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On 06/11/2007, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 06/11/2007, Kenneth Wimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:12:12 Andrea Cimitan wrote:
> > > > I can confirm those words another time. ;)
> > > > Diagonal stripes could be fun when you have a lot of buttons with a
> > > > fixed aspect (see gcalctool for example), but when you have an app
> > > with
> > > > a lot of buttons of various aspects (some thin, some fat etc etc)
> > > the
> > > > result is a _really_ boring theme. Unconsinstent too.
> > > >
> > > > Don't waste your time now ;)
> > > >
> > >
> > > I agree completely with this. It might look nifty in a certain mockup
> > > but I am
> > > not sure it would be good in a real theme.
> > >
> > >
> > To late I already tried it out ;-P
> >
> > I agree that the look gets confusing with various size buttons, because
> > you get diagonal reflections in all sorts of different angles - this makes
> > it confusing for the eye.
> >
> > I am going to try a few other alternative gradients - diagonal
> > alternatives (fx fixed tilt) and some inspired by circle projections.
>
>
> I have some preliminary results put up on:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikkelKamstrupErlandsen/HardyThemeStorm
>
> But is just a *very* quick hack only aimed at testing various reflections.
>
>
> I will put up some more over the next days. If other people are intersted
> in theme-engine-hacking I suggest you take a quick look at
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikkelKamstrupErlandsen/ThemeEngineTricks - which
> should get you going pretty quickly.
>
> Cheers,
> Mikkel
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 06/11/2007, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 06/11/2007, Kenneth Wimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:12:12 Andrea Cimitan wrote:
> > > I can confirm those words another time. ;)
> > > Diagonal stripes could be fun when you have a lot of buttons with a
> > > fixed aspect (see gcalctool for example), but when you have an app
> > with
> > > a lot of buttons of various aspects (some thin, some fat etc etc) the
> > > result is a _really_ boring theme. Unconsinstent too.
> > >
> > > Don't waste your time now ;)
> > >
> >
> > I agree completely with this. It might look nifty in a certain mockup
> > but I am
> > not sure it would be good in a real theme.
> >
> >
> To late I already tried it out ;-P
>
> I agree that the look gets confusing with various size buttons, because
> you get diagonal reflections in all sorts of different angles - this makes
> it confusing for the eye.
>
> I am going to try a few other alternative gradients - diagonal
> alternatives (fx fixed tilt) and some inspired by circle projections.


I have some preliminary results put up on:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikkelKamstrupErlandsen/HardyThemeStorm

But is just a *very* quick hack only aimed at testing various reflections.

I will put up some more over the next days. If other people are intersted in
theme-engine-hacking I suggest you take a quick look at
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikkelKamstrupErlandsen/ThemeEngineTricks - which
should get you going pretty quickly.

Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 06/11/2007, Günther Beyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hey all.
>
> This is my first atempt to activly join an open source project, although
> I'm using Ubuntu for about two years by now.
>
> Short intro: My Name is Günther Beyer, I'm an interface-designer from
> Germany, using Gimp and Inkscape, doing icons, illustrations and mockups
> of all kinds.
>
> Here are my thoughts on the Hardy theme:
>
> First of all I followed the discussion between the two main approches -
> The Mac like interface from Neil J Patel and the darker theme derived
> from Ubuntustudio. I wonder, why we should at any time imitate Vista or
> Leopard. Why not use the best of both worlds and add a little extra
> Ubuntu-linux flavour? If we want Ubuntu to look like Leopard, why not
> just wait for Kubuntu featuring KDE 4 - compare:
>
>
> http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/11/decisionsdecisionsdecisions-so-many.html
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=382776013&size=o
>
> http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/07/02%20Peek.jpg
>
> I think we should go down the other way and try a darker theme with the
> style and astetics of Neils mockups. There were many of my friends, who
> went from Windows to Ubuntu, just because of thouse fancy 3D effects.
> Why not try to repeat this again? As somebody truly pointet out, that
> new users are drawn to a desktop because of its looks, not if the
> usability is much better than the competitors ones, see Vista. The
> transparencies are horrible concerning interaction, but still today
> people tell me how great Vista looks and how much they love it.
>
> Anybody who's doing office work on Ubuntu can change the theme to a
> lighter one with an handfull of clicks. All the other ones will be drawn
> to that darker, unique one.
>
> Imho Open Moko has a good start on an orange-black interface, but it
> looks a little cheap. Maybe we could start here and try to merge this
> with Neils stuff. The only problem I see is the fact, that I don't know,
> how to get black and orange into an theme, tha looks both extraodynary
> and business-style.
>
> Here's a first test:
>
>
> http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png



I was actually just looking at some OpenMoko screenshots and thinking that
they contained some of the stuff we need for Hardy. Maybe we read the same
blogs? ;-P

Anyway - I think that the black widget background is a bit over the edge.
I'm a big fan of  black/dark themes normally, but no matter how much I like
them I always end up resorting to a lighter theme. They are just not nice
for my eyes.

Another problem with dark themes is a purely technical one. I've done a
handful dark themes myself, but they always end up with small glitches here
and there because not all apps are designed to respect the theme 100% This
makes for a bit of an amateurish feel in the long run. That is not
acceptable for Hardy.

Ofcourse broken app theming is a shame for us, but there is simply no way we
can fix this for all known apps. Prominent ones like Firefox has problems
among others (or atleast it used to - have not checked Gutsy with dark
themes).

But the OpenMoko inspiration is a good thing IMHO.

Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 06/11/2007, xl cheese <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> But diagonals do look good in real themes.  These are pixmap themes.
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Schwermetall?content=55578
> http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/62434-2.jpg
>
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/OrangeLiNstaBlackPlastic?content=62434
>
> The diagonals don't necessarily have to go from corner to corner to look
> good.  Notice the similarities between the buttons in the
> Orangelinstablackplastic theme and the human folder icons... ;)
>

I think the idea sound nice on paper, but something with that screenie makes
me want to tilt my head to the left... Is it only me?

I really think that it will be über cool to have a "signature" gradient for
the theme, but it may be harder to come up with one that is pleasant to look
at, long-term, than I hoped... But let's keep the ideas flowing.

Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 06/11/2007, Kenneth Wimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:12:12 Andrea Cimitan wrote:
> > I can confirm those words another time. ;)
> > Diagonal stripes could be fun when you have a lot of buttons with a
> > fixed aspect (see gcalctool for example), but when you have an app with
> > a lot of buttons of various aspects (some thin, some fat etc etc) the
> > result is a _really_ boring theme. Unconsinstent too.
> >
> > Don't waste your time now ;)
> >
>
> I agree completely with this. It might look nifty in a certain mockup but
> I am
> not sure it would be good in a real theme.
>
>
To late I already tried it out ;-P

I agree that the look gets confusing with various size buttons, because you
get diagonal reflections in all sorts of different angles - this makes it
confusing for the eye.

I am going to try a few other alternative gradients - diagonal alternatives
(fx fixed tilt) and some inspired by circle projections.

Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Can K.]

>
> Also
> for the minimize and maximize buttons I would say red for close, green for
> the maximize, and yellow or orange for minimize. The colours I have chosen
> are because I think they will be clear indications of what button to press
> and not experiment on to find out what they are. Also again I would like to
> thank you for e-mailing me and hope to be apart of the team, Yours sincerely
> Ethan Blaine.


That's Mac OS X style! Of course these colors are obvious, but since they're
already in use in another OS's theme, I think it would look like we copied
them, if we'd chose the same colors for that buttons.


**Note: This is my first time being involved in anything on Ubuntu (besides
> the forum).
>
> Anyway, I put together a theme which I think should be used for Hardy. It
> includes an Emerald theme (which I am porting to Metacity), a GTK theme,
> and
> a background. The icons are Human, which  All of these aren't mine, they
> are
> just compiled together by me. The theme pics are here:
>
> http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Screenshots/Screenshot-Hardy1.png
> http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Screenshots/Screenshot-Hardy2.png
>
> Anyway, the reason I think it should be like this is because compared to
> the
> rumored GTK theme (black and orange), which to me feels closed, this theme
> is warm, open, and inviting. It also feels like a sunset (to me) combined
> with the background. Anyway, one suggestion I got from the Ubuntu Forums
> was
> that I should change the dots which represent the close/maximize (or
> restore)/minimize buttons to something else. I was thinking they could be
> changed to the traditional option, though they fit well with this theme.
> Comments/suggestions/feedback, please. :)


>From my point of view, this is even worse than the current theme! Don't get
me wrong, I appreciate your work, but the color of the title bar is way too
intensive for example. Besides, the window titles aren't well readable. The
minimiz/maximize/close buttons are interessting, but for a default OS theme
they might be too special. And if I'm not wrong, the Gtk theme is still the
same as now. But one thing is really positive; the wallpaper!


> Hey,
>
> A friend pointed me to this thread, I'm the author of those mockups :-).
>
> I've never really had the time to work on this, life stuff keeps
> getting in the way, but if anyone does take it forward, I'd definitely
> like to help out, either by coding or designing more complete
> mock-ups.
>
> Two  things thats missing from these mockups is that, with the recent
> advances in Gtk with transparency, it'll be nice to have the theme
> manipulate the transparency of things like dialog & configuration
> windows (obviously it has no effect if in a non-composited
> environment). Secondly, I think that animations are quite important
> now, like while hovering over a button, it would pulse.
>
> Obviously, both these things can quickly become annoying if done
> incorrectly, but I'm sure it won't come to that, and anyway, as long
> as there's an option to switch it off... :-).
>
> Regards,
>
> Neil


Great! Nice to hear that.

Here's a first test:
>
> http://guentherbeyer.de/wp

-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png
>
> Cheerz
> G?nther


Looks really great! The impressed buttons have a quite nice color, I really
like that. But maybe you should change the color of the window content, I
think the contrast between simply white and black is too high. It should be
some light grey tone from my point of view. Another thing I really like
about this theme is that the windows have quite nice rounded corners.
Together with the gradient of the window title bars, this gives a cool
effect. But you might re-think the minimize/maximize/close buttons.
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Corey Woodworth]

The murrina theme may not support those diagnal gradiants, but It does have
nice up turned gradients on the sides of buttons. Probably much more
functional than the diagnal gradient. I imagine the diagnol ones would look
wierd on something like a progress bar that changes sizes.

Screencap:
http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/47466-2.jpg

On 11/6/07, Kenneth Wimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:54:18 xl cheese wrote:
> > But diagonals do look good in real themes.  These are pixmap themes.
> > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Schwermetall?content=55578
> > http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/62434-2.jpg
> >
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/OrangeLiNstaBlackPlastic?content
> >=62434
>
> I still think that a simple diagonal line is not the best idea. perhaps
> there
> is a way to use diagonals at either side and connect them with something
> curvy, not sure though.
>
> >
> > The diagonals don't necessarily have to go from corner to corner to look
> > good.  Notice the similarities between the buttons in the
> > Orangelinstablackplastic theme and the human folder icons... ;)
> >
>
> In any case we are also planning on creating a new icon theme as
> well...without the gloss this time.
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Kenneth Wimer]

On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:54:18 xl cheese wrote:
> But diagonals do look good in real themes.  These are pixmap themes.
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Schwermetall?content=55578
> http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/62434-2.jpg
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/OrangeLiNstaBlackPlastic?content
>=62434

I still think that a simple diagonal line is not the best idea. perhaps there 
is a way to use diagonals at either side and connect them with something 
curvy, not sure though.

>
> The diagonals don't necessarily have to go from corner to corner to look
> good.  Notice the similarities between the buttons in the
> Orangelinstablackplastic theme and the human folder icons... ;)
>

In any case we are also planning on creating a new icon theme as 
well...without the gloss this time.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[xl cheese]

But diagonals do look good in real themes.  These are pixmap themes.
http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Schwermetall?content=55578
http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/62434-2.jpg
http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/OrangeLiNstaBlackPlastic?content=62434
 
The diagonals don't necessarily have to go from corner to corner to look good.  
Notice the similarities between the buttons in the Orangelinstablackplastic 
theme and the human folder icons... ;)
 
A slight arch across the button with the left endpoint slightly lower than the 
right.



> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 
> 2007 16:18:36 +0100> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme> > On Tuesday 
> 06 November 2007 16:12:12 Andrea Cimitan wrote:> > I can confirm those words 
> another time. ;)> > Diagonal stripes could be fun when you have a lot of 
> buttons with a> > fixed aspect (see gcalctool for example), but when you have 
> an app with> > a lot of buttons of various aspects (some thin, some fat etc 
> etc) the> > result is a _really_ boring theme. Unconsinstent too.> >> > Don't 
> waste your time now ;)> >> > I agree completely with this. It might look 
> nifty in a certain mockup but I am > not sure it would be good in a real 
> theme.> > --> Kenneth> > -- > ubuntu-art mailing list> 
> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com> 
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Kenneth Wimer]

On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:12:12 Andrea Cimitan wrote:
> I can confirm those words another time. ;)
> Diagonal stripes could be fun when you have a lot of buttons with a
> fixed aspect (see gcalctool for example), but when you have an app with
> a lot of buttons of various aspects (some thin, some fat etc etc) the
> result is a _really_ boring theme. Unconsinstent too.
>
> Don't waste your time now ;)
>

I agree completely with this. It might look nifty in a certain mockup but I am 
not sure it would be good in a real theme.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Andrea Cimitan]

I can confirm those words another time. ;)
Diagonal stripes could be fun when you have a lot of buttons with a
fixed aspect (see gcalctool for example), but when you have an app with
a lot of buttons of various aspects (some thin, some fat etc etc) the
result is a _really_ boring theme. Unconsinstent too.

Don't waste your time now ;)

Best regards
Andrea Cimitan

Il giorno mar, 06/11/2007 alle 15.02 +0100, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen ha
scritto:
> On 06/11/2007, Julian Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> coming in a bit late on this one but would just like to second
> support
> of Patels diagonal gradiants: if we are to have them at all
> then they
> are the best i've seen yet.
> 
> I had a response from Cimitan Andrea (Murrine dev) that he had
> actually already tried out those diagonal gradients and found that
> they did not look good in a real working system. 
> 
> While I certainly can appreciate that diagonal gradients might  work
> badly in a production environment  (even though the mockups look
> sweet), I still want to see it myself.
> 
> I will try and find some time to hack this into Murrine to check it
> out.  Don't hold your breath though, I'm pretty swamped in work - if
> someone is up to it feel very free to step in :-) I don't think it
> should be that tricky (to create the hack atleast - a clean impl is
> another thing). 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Mikkel


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Jacob Padilla]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/


On 11/6/07, SzerencseFia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I am lost, which mock-up we are talking about? Can someone repeat the
> link?
>
> Neil J Patel wrote:
> > Hey,
> >
> > A friend pointed me to this thread, I'm the author of those mockups :-).
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[SzerencseFia]

I am lost, which mock-up we are talking about? Can someone repeat the link?

Neil J Patel wrote:
> Hey,
>
> A friend pointed me to this thread, I'm the author of those mockups :-).
>
>
>   

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[xl cheese]

Take a peek at the 'smooth' engine.  You can implement diagonal gradients with 
it.  They are 45Deg gradients and not corner to corner which you will want, but 
you may be able to borrow some code there.


Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:02:57 +0100From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK ThemeOn 06/11/2007, Julian Oliver 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

coming in a bit late on this one but would just like to second supportof Patels 
diagonal gradiants: if we are to have them at all then theyare the best i've 
seen yet.
I had a response from Cimitan Andrea (Murrine dev) that he had actually already 
tried out those diagonal gradients and found that they did not look good in a 
real working system. While I certainly can appreciate that diagonal gradients 
might  work badly in a production environment  (even though the mockups look 
sweet), I still want to see it myself.I will try and find some time to hack 
this into Murrine to check it out.  Don't hold your breath though, I'm pretty 
swamped in work - if someone is up to it feel very free to step in :-) I don't 
think it should be that tricky (to create the hack atleast - a clean impl is 
another thing). Cheers,Mikkel
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[ubuntu-art] hardy gtk theme

[Günther Beyer]

Hey all.

This is my first atempt to activly join an open source project, although
I'm using Ubuntu for about two years by now.

Short intro: My Name is Günther Beyer, I'm an interface-designer from
Germany, using Gimp and Inkscape, doing icons, illustrations and mockups
of all kinds.

Here are my thoughts on the Hardy theme:

First of all I followed the discussion between the two main approches -
The Mac like interface from Neil J Patel and the darker theme derived
from Ubuntustudio. I wonder, why we should at any time imitate Vista or
Leopard. Why not use the best of both worlds and add a little extra
Ubuntu-linux flavour? If we want Ubuntu to look like Leopard, why not
just wait for Kubuntu featuring KDE 4 - compare:

http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/11/decisionsdecisionsdecisions-so-many.html

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=382776013&size=o

http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/07/02%20Peek.jpg

I think we should go down the other way and try a darker theme with the
style and astetics of Neils mockups. There were many of my friends, who
went from Windows to Ubuntu, just because of thouse fancy 3D effects.
Why not try to repeat this again? As somebody truly pointet out, that
new users are drawn to a desktop because of its looks, not if the
usability is much better than the competitors ones, see Vista. The
transparencies are horrible concerning interaction, but still today
people tell me how great Vista looks and how much they love it.

Anybody who's doing office work on Ubuntu can change the theme to a
lighter one with an handfull of clicks. All the other ones will be drawn
to that darker, unique one.

Imho Open Moko has a good start on an orange-black interface, but it
looks a little cheap. Maybe we could start here and try to merge this
with Neils stuff. The only problem I see is the fact, that I don't know,
how to get black and orange into an theme, tha looks both extraodynary
and business-style.

Here's a first test:

http://guentherbeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ubuntu_804_theme_test_02b.png

Cheerz
Günther


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 06/11/2007, Julian Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> coming in a bit late on this one but would just like to second support
> of Patels diagonal gradiants: if we are to have them at all then they
> are the best i've seen yet.


I had a response from Cimitan Andrea (Murrine dev) that he had actually
already tried out those diagonal gradients and found that they did not look
good in a real working system.

While I certainly can appreciate that diagonal gradients might  work badly
in a production environment  (even though the mockups look sweet), I still
want to see it myself.

I will try and find some time to hack this into Murrine to check it out.
Don't hold your breath though, I'm pretty swamped in work - if someone is up
to it feel very free to step in :-) I don't think it should be that tricky
(to create the hack atleast - a clean impl is another thing).

Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Julian Oliver]

..on or around Tue, Nov 06, 2007 at 09:42:58AM +, Neil J Patel said:
> 
> A friend pointed me to this thread, I'm the author of those mockups :-).

congrats.

> 
> I've never really had the time to work on this, life stuff keeps
> getting in the way, but if anyone does take it forward, I'd definitely
> like to help out, either by coding or designing more complete
> mock-ups.
> 
> Two  things thats missing from these mockups is that, with the recent
> advances in Gtk with transparency, it'll be nice to have the theme
> manipulate the transparency of things like dialog & configuration
> windows (obviously it has no effect if in a non-composited
> environment). Secondly, I think that animations are quite important
> now, like while hovering over a button, it would pulse.
> 

lovely, and perfectly doable too i'd imagine.

even your snap:

  http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/

.. provides plenty of material to begin basing a truly new look for Hardy.

cheers and welcome,

julian

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Julian Oliver]

coming in a bit late on this one but would just like to second support
of Patels diagonal gradiants: if we are to have them at all then they
are the best i've seen yet.

cheers,

-- 
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..on or around Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 10:01:02PM +0100, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen 
said:
> I must be honest and say that I have not seen anything yet that I think is
> really original. Sorry guys.
> 
> Some of the best mockups I've seen is an old collection of Neil J Patels,
> which can be seen here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/tags/avantthemeengine/ The
> interesting thing is those diagonal reflections IMHO. I have not seen that
> anywhere else, and it looks quite nice.
> 
> Observations from Neils mockups:
> 
>  * The subtle drop shadows on the widgets make them stand out really nicely
> - see http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/
> 
>  * In the link above notice the diagonal reflections.
> 
>  * This progressbar looks really really good together with rest of the
> theme: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/. The groove 
> in
> which it expands could be better though.
> 
> The theme engine is still not implemented though. It does however look like
> it should be easy to hack Murrine or Aurora to support those diagonal
> reflections.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mikkel

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Neil J Patel]

Hey,

A friend pointed me to this thread, I'm the author of those mockups :-).

I've never really had the time to work on this, life stuff keeps
getting in the way, but if anyone does take it forward, I'd definitely
like to help out, either by coding or designing more complete
mock-ups.

Two  things thats missing from these mockups is that, with the recent
advances in Gtk with transparency, it'll be nice to have the theme
manipulate the transparency of things like dialog & configuration
windows (obviously it has no effect if in a non-composited
environment). Secondly, I think that animations are quite important
now, like while hovering over a button, it would pulse.

Obviously, both these things can quickly become annoying if done
incorrectly, but I'm sure it won't come to that, and anyway, as long
as there's an option to switch it off... :-).

Regards,

Neil

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[ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[AA Boy]

**Note: This is my first time being involved in anything on Ubuntu (besides
the forum).

Anyway, I put together a theme which I think should be used for Hardy. It
includes an Emerald theme (which I am porting to Metacity), a GTK theme, and
a background. The icons are Human, which  All of these aren't mine, they are
just compiled together by me. The theme pics are here:

http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Screenshots/Screenshot-Hardy1.png
http://www.smartboy.salocinlinux.org/db/Screenshots/Screenshot-Hardy2.png

Anyway, the reason I think it should be like this is because compared to the
rumored GTK theme (black and orange), which to me feels closed, this theme
is warm, open, and inviting. It also feels like a sunset (to me) combined
with the background. Anyway, one suggestion I got from the Ubuntu Forums was
that I should change the dots which represent the close/maximize (or
restore)/minimize buttons to something else. I was thinking they could be
changed to the traditional option, though they fit well with this theme.
Comments/suggestions/feedback, please. :)
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Troy James Sobotka]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
> Also, on the topic of rounded corners (I realize this is a mock up),
> if there are to be rounded corners then it's absolutely important
> that they're antialiased. 
> 
> 
> This isn't possible with metacity, is it?
> 

No, it is not.

The antialiasing comes from an 'awareness' and processing of the raised
layer over the lower layer.  To do this, it would theoretically be
possible using a composite technique (as with xcompmgr) or like
approach.

Hope this helps,
TJS

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHL6+Far0EasPEHjQRAicmAJ9pJPjVY1MfaLhQwJ0Xjn3I6ekU1ACgjaBi
Ofi8E9vMMLtVyFU8bxYGN7E=
=4sJg
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Iacopo Masi]

I mixed some stuff staring from the OranSun one.
Let me know if you like this screenshot.

http://www.iacopomasi.net/content/hardy.png


Best,
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Ethan Blaine]

Hello all and thank you very much for replying to my message. The
rounded corners is a good idea, but probably only on the top of the
window or only the bottom. If you had the rounded corners on the bottom
it wouldn't look like we put effort into it, you know what I mean? Also
for the minimize and maximize buttons I would say red for close, green for the 
maximize, and yellow or orange for minimize. The colours I have chosen are 
because I think they will be clear indications of what button to press and not 
experiment on to find out what they are. Also again I would like to thank you 
for e-mailing me and hope to be apart of the team, Yours sincerely Ethan Blaine.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:23:53 -0600
CC: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme







I think it could be partially implemented on the inside of the curve.






Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:01:10 +0100
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme



Also, on the topic of rounded corners (I realize this is a mock up), if there 
are to be rounded corners then it's absolutely important that they're 
antialiased. 

This isn't possible with metacity, is it? 
Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! Try 
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[xl cheese]

I think it could be partially implemented on the inside of the curve.


Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:01:10 +0100From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

Also, on the topic of rounded corners (I realize this is a mock up), if there 
are to be rounded corners then it's absolutely important that they're 
antialiased. 
This isn't possible with metacity, is it? 
_
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Jan Niklas Hasse]

>
> Also, on the topic of rounded corners (I realize this is a mock up), if
> there are to be rounded corners then it's absolutely important that they're
> antialiased.


This isn't possible with metacity, is it?
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[SzerencseFia]

Kenneth Wimer wrote:
I have been talking to Matthew Nuzum concerning the art.ubuntu.com site. With 
any luck something will be online by the end of the week. Included will 
be "rating" as well as "viewed" which should help the other contributors 
figure out which stuff is most popular amongst those using the site.


--
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That should be good enough. Please give a message when the site is on.
- Erno
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Kenneth Wimer]

On Monday 05 November 2007 18:22:13 SzerencseFia wrote:
> Kenneth Wimer wrote:
> > Sorry for the late response, I have been in transit to another conference
> > and am just now catching up on my email...answer inline...
>
> This is fine, hope u have had good time. :-)
>
> > Until now we only have the possiblity to survey people online (not in
> > person)...more importantly the evaluation of such information is
> > something that is quie problematic - a few hundred people would probably
> > not be enough and it would be very hard to find even a few hundred people
> > who are not already ubuntu users (as they are our target audience).
> >
> > --
> > Ken
>
> I see the point. Then I would take this voting stuff through your
> friend's ...-look.org sites. I actually have started to test ideas
> already. This can work for the community but still not for the green
> users. Idea, comment?

I have been talking to Matthew Nuzum concerning the art.ubuntu.com site. With 
any luck something will be online by the end of the week. Included will 
be "rating" as well as "viewed" which should help the other contributors 
figure out which stuff is most popular amongst those using the site.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[SzerencseFia]

Kenneth Wimer wrote:
> Sorry for the late response, I have been in transit to another conference and 
> am just now catching up on my email...answer inline...
This is fine, hope u have had good time. :-)
> Until now we only have the possiblity to survey people online (not in 
> person)...more importantly the evaluation of such information is something 
> that is quie problematic - a few hundred people would probably not be enough 
> and it would be very hard to find even a few hundred people who are not 
> already ubuntu users (as they are our target audience).
>
> --
> Ken

I see the point. Then I would take this voting stuff through your 
friend's ...-look.org sites. I actually have started to test ideas 
already. This can work for the community but still not for the green 
users. Idea, comment?

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Kenneth Wimer]

Sorry for the late response, I have been in transit to another conference and 
am just now catching up on my email...answer inline...

On Saturday 03 November 2007 17:22:57 SzerencseFia wrote:
> Lets say you start to use your newly downloaded/burned Ubuntu Hardy and
> the system is clean, nothing on it only entirely default. This is the
> most common place to start with the new releases, is it?
>
> Take it into account that most people are not designer and they have to
> be treated as such whom are not an expert in theming. Our coordination
> should lead us in that direction where simple user is the target, their
> level of knowledge, understanding to make theme changes on the system.
> Their limitation is the understanding, what do they understand and able
> to do with their Linux system.
>
> Why I say this? I do think our motto has to be SIMPLICITY and we have to
> present to the users the freedom of choice as the main direction in Open
> Source world.
>
> Therefore: we should present one dark and one light theme from the same
> type but with different color. In fact it leaves one question open which
> one would be default in the release. Kenneth, do we have possibility to
> survey few hundreds of simple users?

Until now we only have the possiblity to survey people online (not in 
person)...more importantly the evaluation of such information is something 
that is quie problematic - a few hundred people would probably not be enough 
and it would be very hard to find even a few hundred people who are not 
already ubuntu users (as they are our target audience).

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Jacob Padilla]

I like the different colored buttons but they need icons. How can colors be
associated better with windowing functions though? Green doesn't standout in
my mind as a minimize button. Red definitely works for close though.

Also, on the topic of rounded corners (I realize this is a mock up), if
there are to be rounded corners then it's absolutely important that they're
antialiased. If they're not then it's just a big glaring negative mark
against the theme. It's a matter of fit and finish.



On 11/5/07, SzerencseFia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Exactly, the usability of the buttons is important. I have started few
> days ago a survey on an idea of Metacity buttons for the upcoming Hardy
> release. I am looking forward guys your opinions.
>
> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/eBlueBall?content=68983
>
> cheers, Erno
>
> Brian White wrote:
> > A small nitpick that may be more subjective than anything else--I
> > prefer it when themes give the close, minimize, and maximize buttons
> > different shapes (or at least different colors).  From a usablility
> > standpoint, this means I immediately know the function of each button
> > without having to experiment to find out.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Brian White
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[SzerencseFia]

Exactly, the usability of the buttons is important. I have started few 
days ago a survey on an idea of Metacity buttons for the upcoming Hardy 
release. I am looking forward guys your opinions.

http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/eBlueBall?content=68983

cheers, Erno

Brian White wrote:
> A small nitpick that may be more subjective than anything else--I
> prefer it when themes give the close, minimize, and maximize buttons
> different shapes (or at least different colors).  From a usablility
> standpoint, this means I immediately know the function of each button
> without having to experiment to find out.
>
> Cheers,
> Brian White

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Brian White]

Neil J Patels mockups look great to me.  I would really support
working on this for Hardy or Hardy +1.

A small nitpick that may be more subjective than anything else--I
prefer it when themes give the close, minimize, and maximize buttons
different shapes (or at least different colors).  From a usablility
standpoint, this means I immediately know the function of each button
without having to experiment to find out.

Otherwise, this looks fantastic.  Very distinctive and professional.
Any word yet it we think this would be possible with Murrine or
Aurora?  A mockup is one thing...implementing it is another.

Cheers,
Brian White

On 11/5/07, Sam Bristow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think that Neil J Patels mockups have a huge amount of potential for
> Hardy. One aspect not covered in those mockups (from what I saw) is
> identifying inactive windows. It needs to be obvious which window is
> active and which windows are not. This is hit-and-miss with other
> themes, some do it well, others seem to completely ignore it.
>
> Cheers,
> Sam  (KidProQuo)
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Sam Bristow]

I think that Neil J Patels mockups have a huge amount of potential for
Hardy. One aspect not covered in those mockups (from what I saw) is
identifying inactive windows. It needs to be obvious which window is
active and which windows are not. This is hit-and-miss with other
themes, some do it well, others seem to completely ignore it.

Cheers,
Sam  (KidProQuo)


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Corey Woodworth]

I do like those diagnol gradients quite a bit. I would like to hack aurora
to add that feature but I've never really delved that deep into C. Here is
another gtkrc I did, this time incorporating the moomex pixmap theme into
Aurora.

http://www.milkstreetmedia.com/misc/morerubber.png

I changed the pixmaps to a more rubberized look to match the scroll bar. I
believe the original moomex was an attempt at a vista-ish look. I however
don't want to copy vista, OSX or any other os. I want something original
too. I'm working on themes and not mockups though, so I'm limited in what I
have to work with to achieve my goals. Its obvious I'm going to have to
learn how to tweak the code of the engines to get the effects I'm after. The
scrollbar of my current theme has a bug where it is outlined in black. I
need to hack the engine code to allow it to use a different color for the
scrollbar. (Much like how Clearlooks allows you to colorize the scrollbars).
That seems to me like it'll be a rather simple tweak, and a good place to
start. If I can figure out how to do that little tweak I'll then try to hack
on it some more to gets those diagonal gradient buttons, and maybe a
different effect for selected tabs.

I know a lil' C, but are there any tutorials specifically about programming
GTK engines? That would help me greatly.

Corey

On 11/4/07, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I must be honest and say that I have not seen anything yet that I think is
> really original. Sorry guys.
>
> Some of the best mockups I've seen is an old collection of Neil J Patels,
> which can be seen here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/tags/avantthemeengine/ The
> interesting thing is those diagonal reflections IMHO. I have not seen that
> anywhere else, and it looks quite nice.
>
> Observations from Neils mockups:
>
>  * The subtle drop shadows on the widgets make them stand out really
> nicely - see http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/
>
>  * In the link above notice the diagonal reflections.
>
>  * This progressbar looks really really good together with rest of the
> theme: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/. The groove 
> in
> which it expands could be better though.
>
> The theme engine is still not implemented though. It does however look
> like it should be easy to hack Murrine or Aurora to support those diagonal
> reflections.
>
> Cheers,
> Mikkel
>
> --
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> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
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>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[momo]

Hi!

These is a really nice looking theme! I'd be very happy to see that in ubuntu 
one day...

In http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/ the progressbar 
could be thinner and its ends more square to visually fit in the overall shapes 
of the widgets and window.

Molumen


  - Original Message - 
  From: Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen 
  To: Can K. 
  Cc: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 10:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme


  I must be honest and say that I have not seen anything yet that I think is 
really original. Sorry guys.

  Some of the best mockups I've seen is an old collection of Neil J Patels, 
which can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]/tags/avantthemeengine/ The interesting thing is those diagonal 
reflections IMHO. I have not seen that anywhere else, and it looks quite nice.

  Observations from Neils mockups: 

   * The subtle drop shadows on the widgets make them stand out really nicely - 
see http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/

   * In the link above notice the diagonal reflections. 

   * This progressbar looks really really good together with rest of the theme: 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/. The groove in which 
it expands could be better though. 

  The theme engine is still not implemented though. It does however look like 
it should be easy to hack Murrine or Aurora to support those diagonal 
reflections.

  Cheers,
  Mikkel



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Álvaro Medina Ballester]

Hi everyone!

Those Patels mockups are great. Very distinctive, not similar to OSX
or Vista. I really like this mockups, and they're not just great.
Changing Ubuntu's default theme not to another orange/brown theme
would be a great way to promote Ubuntu. I don't want to imitate OS X
but I want to show you guys this link

http://www.maestrosdelweb.com/editorial/historia-y-evolucion-del-sistema-operativo-mac-os/

Look how OS 9 looks and look how OS X "Cheetah" does. I think this is
the effect that new Ubuntu theme should have. Radical change maybe,
and those mockups could be a great start.

Álvaro.

2007/11/4, Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 04/11/2007, Can K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That theme is so f*uckin' awesome! It's exactly what I'm talking about - a
> really nice theme, that can compete with Vista and OS X look, but doesn't
> copy them in any way, because it's something original and new. If you ask
> me, that's the direction to go!
>
>
> I've sent an inquiry to Cimitan Andrea, author of Murrine, asking whether or
> not it is feasible to add these features to Murrine, and whether he would be
> interested in hacking on it himself, or we should do it (if he accepts
> patches).
>
> Cheers,
> Mikkel
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > I must be honest and say that I have not seen anything yet that I think
> is
> > > really original. Sorry guys.
> > >
> > > Some of the best mockups I've seen is an old collection of Neil J
> Patels,
> > > which can be seen here:
> > >
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/tags/avantthemeengine/
> The
> > > interesting thing is those diagonal reflections IMHO. I have not seen
> that
> > > anywhere else, and it looks quite nice.
> > >
> > > Observations from Neils mockups:
> > >
> > > * The subtle drop shadows on the widgets make them stand out really
> nicely
> > > - see
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/
> > >
> > > * In the link above notice the diagonal reflections.
> > >
> > > * This progressbar looks really really good together with rest of the
> > > theme:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/. The
> groove in
> > > which it expands could be better though.
> > >
> > > The theme engine is still not implemented though. It does however look
> like
> > > it should be easy to hack Murrine or Aurora to support those diagonal
> > > reflections.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Mikkel
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ubuntu-art mailing list
> > ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

On 04/11/2007, Can K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> That theme is so f*uckin' awesome! It's
> exactly what I'm talking about - a really nice theme, that can compete with
> Vista and OS X look, but doesn't copy them in any way, because it's
> something original and new. If you ask me, that's the direction to go!



I've sent an inquiry to Cimitan Andrea, author of Murrine, asking whether or
not it is feasible to add these features to Murrine, and whether he would be
interested in hacking on it himself, or we should do it (if he accepts
patches).

Cheers,
Mikkel


I must be honest and say that I have not seen anything yet that I think is
> > really original. Sorry guys.
> >
> > Some of the best mockups I've seen is an old collection of Neil J
> > Patels,
> > which can be seen here:
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/tags/avantthemeengine/ The
> > interesting thing is those diagonal reflections IMHO. I have not seen
> > that
> > anywhere else, and it looks quite nice.
> >
> > Observations from Neils mockups:
> >
> > * The subtle drop shadows on the widgets make them stand out really
> > nicely
> > - see http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/
> >
> > * In the link above notice the diagonal reflections.
> >
> > * This progressbar looks really really good together with rest of the
> > theme: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/. The groove
> > in
> > which it expands could be better though.
> >
> > The theme engine is still not implemented though. It does however look
> > like
> > it should be easy to hack Murrine or Aurora to support those diagonal
> > reflections.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mikkel
> >
>
> --
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>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Can K.]

 That theme is so f*uckin' awesome! It's
exactly what I'm talking about - a really nice theme, that can compete with
Vista and OS X look, but doesn't copy them in any way, because it's
something original and new. If you ask me, that's the direction to go!


I must be honest and say that I have not seen anything yet that I think is
> really original. Sorry guys.
>
> Some of the best mockups I've seen is an old collection of Neil J Patels,
> which can be seen here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/tags/avantthemeengine/ The
> interesting thing is those diagonal reflections IMHO. I have not seen that
> anywhere else, and it looks quite nice.
>
> Observations from Neils mockups:
>
> * The subtle drop shadows on the widgets make them stand out really nicely
>
> - see http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/
>
> * In the link above notice the diagonal reflections.
>
> * This progressbar looks really really good together with rest of the
> theme: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/. The groove 
> in
> which it expands could be better though.
>
> The theme engine is still not implemented though. It does however look
> like
> it should be easy to hack Murrine or Aurora to support those diagonal
> reflections.
>
> Cheers,
> Mikkel
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen]

I must be honest and say that I have not seen anything yet that I think is
really original. Sorry guys.

Some of the best mockups I've seen is an old collection of Neil J Patels,
which can be seen here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/tags/avantthemeengine/ The
interesting thing is those diagonal reflections IMHO. I have not seen that
anywhere else, and it looks quite nice.

Observations from Neils mockups:

 * The subtle drop shadows on the widgets make them stand out really nicely
- see http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776014/

 * In the link above notice the diagonal reflections.

 * This progressbar looks really really good together with rest of the
theme: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/382776017/. The groove in
which it expands could be better though.

The theme engine is still not implemented though. It does however look like
it should be easy to hack Murrine or Aurora to support those diagonal
reflections.

Cheers,
Mikkel
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[SzerencseFia]

If I remember right KDE based distros like Xandros and Suse give the 
possibility to choose from couple of different look at the first log in 
after install. Could that code be used on anyway?
e

Dylan McCall wrote:
> A first-run theme changer would also feel rather unoriginal, and an 
> app that ultimately achieves very little. I am working on such an 
> Ubuntu Tour application right now, and changing the theme is easily 
> incorporated as one of the many things it does. However, much more 
> important is actually showing the user around the Ubuntu desktop, and 
> providing more immediately useful preferences such as accessibility 
> options. When / if this ever gets done and I need to document the page 
> creation process, it will be a very important rule that customization 
> options, unless urgently necessary, should not be tacked on but 
> blended seamlessly with demonstrations. The goal with my attempt is 
> for the desktop to become easily accessible for the vision and motion 
> impaired within 3 steps after logging in, and for those options to not 
> ever bother people who don't need them.
>
> A problem that type of theme changer (and only theme changer) app 
> brings along is psychological. If the OS is immediately suggesting 
> that one change his theme (in such away that it is more important than 
> even being shown the OS!), that suggests that the default theme has 
> not been tailored to appeal to the majority of uses, so a convoluted 
> compromise has been hit instead. Rather misleading..
>
> Bye,
> -Dylan McCall
>
> On 11/4/07, *Cory K.* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> SzerencseFia wrote:
> > Jean-Denis Vauguet wrote:
> >
> >> What about a startup dialog (post-installation) asking the new user
> >> which kind of art he wants for his desktop? Something like:
> >>
> >> "Congratulations Foobar! Your computer is ready [...] final
> settings
> >> [...] you may choose between two themes (or add new ones in the
> [themes
> >> prefs]) [...] [thumbnails and radio boxes]"
> >>
> >> (other post-installation settings could be handled at this time)
> >>
> > This is an excellent idea!
> > e
> >
>
> No. This will never happen. Its very much like the "Ubuntu tour" that
> has been discussed many times.
>
> I really don't see this as a big deal. If you don't like the default
> theme, change it yourself. No need to add development of an app for
> this. Especially when resources are lacking.
>
> --
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
> 
>
>

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Dylan McCall]

A first-run theme changer would also feel rather unoriginal, and an app that
ultimately achieves very little. I am working on such an Ubuntu Tour
application right now, and changing the theme is easily incorporated as one
of the many things it does. However, much more important is actually showing
the user around the Ubuntu desktop, and providing more immediately useful
preferences such as accessibility options. When / if this ever gets done and
I need to document the page creation process, it will be a very important
rule that customization options, unless urgently necessary, should not be
tacked on but blended seamlessly with demonstrations. The goal with my
attempt is for the desktop to become easily accessible for the vision and
motion impaired within 3 steps after logging in, and for those options to
not ever bother people who don't need them.

A problem that type of theme changer (and only theme changer) app brings
along is psychological. If the OS is immediately suggesting that one change
his theme (in such away that it is more important than even being shown the
OS!), that suggests that the default theme has not been tailored to appeal
to the majority of uses, so a convoluted compromise has been hit instead.
Rather misleading..

Bye,
-Dylan McCall

On 11/4/07, Cory K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> SzerencseFia wrote:
> > Jean-Denis Vauguet wrote:
> >
> >> What about a startup dialog (post-installation) asking the new user
> >> which kind of art he wants for his desktop? Something like:
> >>
> >> "Congratulations Foobar! Your computer is ready [...] final settings
> >> [...] you may choose between two themes (or add new ones in the [themes
> >> prefs]) [...] [thumbnails and radio boxes]"
> >>
> >> (other post-installation settings could be handled at this time)
> >>
> > This is an excellent idea!
> > e
> >
>
> No. This will never happen. Its very much like the "Ubuntu tour" that
> has been discussed many times.
>
> I really don't see this as a big deal. If you don't like the default
> theme, change it yourself. No need to add development of an app for
> this. Especially when resources are lacking.
>
> --
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Cory K.]

SzerencseFia wrote:
> Jean-Denis Vauguet wrote:
>   
>> What about a startup dialog (post-installation) asking the new user
>> which kind of art he wants for his desktop? Something like:
>>
>> "Congratulations Foobar! Your computer is ready [...] final settings
>> [...] you may choose between two themes (or add new ones in the [themes
>> prefs]) [...] [thumbnails and radio boxes]"
>>
>> (other post-installation settings could be handled at this time)
>> 
> This is an excellent idea!
> e
>   

No. This will never happen. Its very much like the "Ubuntu tour" that
has been discussed many times.

I really don't see this as a big deal. If you don't like the default
theme, change it yourself. No need to add development of an app for
this. Especially when resources are lacking.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[SzerencseFia]

Jean-Denis Vauguet wrote:
> What about a startup dialog (post-installation) asking the new user
> which kind of art he wants for his desktop? Something like:
>
> "Congratulations Foobar! Your computer is ready [...] final settings
> [...] you may choose between two themes (or add new ones in the [themes
> prefs]) [...] [thumbnails and radio boxes]"
>
> (other post-installation settings could be handled at this time)
This is an excellent idea!
e

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Jean-Denis Vauguet]

SzerencseFia a écrit :
 > Therefore: we should present one dark and one light theme from the same
> type but with different color. In fact it leaves one question open which 
> one would be default in the release. Kenneth, do we have possibility to 
> survey few hundreds of simple users?


What about a startup dialog (post-installation) asking the new user
which kind of art he wants for his desktop? Something like:

"Congratulations Foobar! Your computer is ready [...] final settings
[...] you may choose between two themes (or add new ones in the [themes
prefs]) [...] [thumbnails and radio boxes]"

(other post-installation settings could be handled at this time)



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Can K.]

The Moomex theme is too much Vista from my point of view. I think it's not
Ubuntu's goal to imitate another OS. We have to make something different, an
own style. Your screenshot looks ok, but not very progressive. Looks still
like ye olde Gtk look...If we want to make something new, something
different, I doubt that this is the right direction.


One more proposal :)
>
> This is based on Moomex, which is the 2nd highest rated gtk2 theme on
> gnome-look. It is based on the Clearlooks engine, but has some pixmap
> goodness thrown in. Can't get much more stable than good ol' clearlooks I
> imagine. I've modified it a little bit, including making the slider
> handles
> black and rubberized again. I like this one quite a bit, even though it is
> glossier than I usually like. The black and orange hightlights really
> stand
> out though, and give it a new feel. The black menubars and panels give off
> that dark theme vibe, while avoiding all the problems with dark themes.
> The
> only problem I'm having is that I can't change the color of the slider
> handles without changing the color of the troughs. This theme needs a
> little
> more work too. I'll prolly deglossify the panels and menubars so they
> match
> the rubbery look of the slider handles.
>
> Lemme all know what you think, and if this is the right direction for
> Hardy.
> I'm learning more and more about the GTK theme engines and am up for any
> ideas. If it turns out aurora isn't a problem, I may bring the pixmaped
> menubars into that theme too... hmm that could be fun =)
>
> If anyone knows how to tweak the color of the slider handles and/or
> troughs,
> please lemme know. I'd really like it if the handels used the color
> defined
> for the colorized scrollbars.
>
> Here is the screencap:
> http://www.milkstreetmedia.com/misc/hardygtk.png
>
> Lemme know if you guys want the theme files too.
>
> Corey
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Corey Woodworth]

One more proposal :)

This is based on Moomex, which is the 2nd highest rated gtk2 theme on
gnome-look. It is based on the Clearlooks engine, but has some pixmap
goodness thrown in. Can't get much more stable than good ol' clearlooks I
imagine. I've modified it a little bit, including making the slider handles
black and rubberized again. I like this one quite a bit, even though it is
glossier than I usually like. The black and orange hightlights really stand
out though, and give it a new feel. The black menubars and panels give off
that dark theme vibe, while avoiding all the problems with dark themes. The
only problem I'm having is that I can't change the color of the slider
handles without changing the color of the troughs. This theme needs a little
more work too. I'll prolly deglossify the panels and menubars so they match
the rubbery look of the slider handles.

Lemme all know what you think, and if this is the right direction for Hardy.
I'm learning more and more about the GTK theme engines and am up for any
ideas. If it turns out aurora isn't a problem, I may bring the pixmaped
menubars into that theme too... hmm that could be fun =)

If anyone knows how to tweak the color of the slider handles and/or troughs,
please lemme know. I'd really like it if the handels used the color defined
for the colorized scrollbars.

Here is the screencap:
http://www.milkstreetmedia.com/misc/hardygtk.png

Lemme know if you guys want the theme files too.

Corey
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Corey Woodworth]

Here is another Aurora screenshot, this time I tweaked the gtkrc to make the
scale handels look rubberized. I must say I like it quite a bit.

http://www.milkstreetmedia.com/misc/auroranblck.png

I tried to pull of the same effect in clearlooks and nodoku, but it seems
that Aurora is the only theme I've found so far who's scale handle colors
don't also change the color of the trough.

I'm still for Aurora. Its got lots of little touches that make it feel much
more modern than clearlooks and other default themes. And don't forget that
Hardy is almost 6 months off. If we choose to go with it now, we've got
plenty of time to submit and fix bugs. I think it would be well worth the
effort.

I've also attached the gtkrc file if anyone wants to try it out and/or tweak
it.

On 11/2/07, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 11/2/07, Jacob Padilla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200608/light_text_on_dark_background_vs_readability/
> >
> >
> > I've read before about the poor accessibility of light text on dark
> > background so I'm not really sure it's a good choice for a default theme. I,
> > personally, think it looks cool and trendy but that doesn't make it a good
> > decision for a default setting on a product with such a wide release.
>
>
> I agree.
>
> As far as Aurora goes, it looks nice but if it's a resource hog then it
> > too shouldn't be a default. If it's a resource hog then you have to ask
> > yourself, "Why is it hogging resources? Is it calling a lot of different
> > modules or something?" I guess what I'm trying to say is that with more
> > bloat comes more bugs.
> >
>
> Let me play the devil's advocate and point out that with 7.10 the system
> requirements changed requiring a minimum of 384M of RAM + whatever is needed
> by the video card if that applies to you. Hardy will be around for quite a
> while and will be the platform future versions. I think its OK if we switch
> to a theme that requires more horse power. (IMHO)
>
> Now that being said, Hardy will be supported for 3 years, twice the length
> of 7.10... we don't want to choose something that in 14mo will be abandon
> ware. (though by merit of being included as the default in Ubuntu, a project
> will automatically gain wide notoriety) I think the time to make major
> changes was with the 7.04 and 7.10 releases and maybe instead of changing
> the theme engine for Hardy we should work on polishing what we're already
> using.
> --
> Matthew Nuzum
> newz2000 on freenode
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>


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Stemp Ubuntu]

Le samedi 03 novembre 2007 à 21:22 +0100, Iacopo Masi a écrit :
> Hello,
> I wanto  to remember my work with the best art items in the net
> (Murrine, Glossy Orange etc) stored at
> 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/OranSun
> 
The gdm and splash screen are part of the glossy orange theme, but the
gtk theme seem to «human»
> 
> Let me know,
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On Nov 3, 2007 12:14 AM, Toby Smithe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 11:09 -0400, Jacob Padilla wrote:
> > > I agree that the engine should share long term support with the
> > > release. I don't however think system requirements need to be changed
> > > on this release and especially not on the account of something like a
> > > theme engine. Then again I'm also opposed to a LiveCD based standard
> > > install CD where if you don't meet the system req then you get the
> > > Debian installer based alternate CD, but that's off topic.
> > >
> > > Maybe there needs to be an all new (or rescued abandon ware or forked
> > > Clearlooks) GTK engine / window border / GDM theme maintained by
> > > Ubuntu? How else can long term support be guaranteed? It would be
> > > great for branding.
> > >
> >
> > There is an engine, forked from Clearlooks (or so I believe). It's
> > called Ubuntulooks and it's the default.
> >
> > Clearlooks isn't the default, or so I thought.
> >
> >
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Iacopo Masi]

Hello,
I wanto  to remember my work with the best art items in the net
(Murrine, Glossy Orange etc) stored at

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/OranSun


Let me know,

Cheers

On Nov 3, 2007 12:14 AM, Toby Smithe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 11:09 -0400, Jacob Padilla wrote:
> > I agree that the engine should share long term support with the
> > release. I don't however think system requirements need to be changed
> > on this release and especially not on the account of something like a
> > theme engine. Then again I'm also opposed to a LiveCD based standard
> > install CD where if you don't meet the system req then you get the
> > Debian installer based alternate CD, but that's off topic.
> >
> > Maybe there needs to be an all new (or rescued abandon ware or forked
> > Clearlooks) GTK engine / window border / GDM theme maintained by
> > Ubuntu? How else can long term support be guaranteed? It would be
> > great for branding.
> >
>
> There is an engine, forked from Clearlooks (or so I believe). It's
> called Ubuntulooks and it's the default.
>
> Clearlooks isn't the default, or so I thought.
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Matthew Nicholson]

On Nov 3, 2007, at 12:22 PM, SzerencseFia wrote:

> Lets say you start to use your newly downloaded/burned Ubuntu Hardy  
> and
> the system is clean, nothing on it only entirely default. This is the
> most common place to start with the new releases, is it?
>
> Take it into account that most people are not designer and they have  
> to
> be treated as such whom are not an expert in theming. Our coordination
> should lead us in that direction where simple user is the target,  
> their
> level of knowledge, understanding to make theme changes on the system.
> Their limitation is the understanding, what do they understand and  
> able
> to do with their Linux system.
>
> Why I say this? I do think our motto has to be SIMPLICITY and we  
> have to
> present to the users the freedom of choice as the main direction in  
> Open
> Source world.
>
> Therefore: we should present one dark and one light theme from the  
> same
> type but with different color. In fact it leaves one question open  
> which
> one would be default in the release. Kenneth, do we have possibility  
> to
> survey few hundreds of simple users?
>
Idea/Suggestion: In past releases, when there was a decent amount of  
art changes, they only showed up to the end user (ie, people running  
the RC's/beta/tribes/herds/whatever Hardy will be) near the final  
release (last beta etc). I would suggest that maybe a few possible  
default/included themes be included as early as possible in the alpha/ 
beta releases (along with an old stand by maybe), and to make it a  
point to get the word out suggestions/feed back/bugs are welcome and  
needed on the new art work. That way there would be amble time to try  
to make the best theme that appeals to the most users. Obviously  
anyone can change it later (I like the idea of have a couple variants  
of the default theme), but this way the few hundred users could be a  
few thousand or more. (We could even go with the old "This is not the  
final art! Feedback welcome" text on the background etc.

Matt

> Cheers, Erno [Szerencsefia]
>
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[ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[SzerencseFia]

Lets say you start to use your newly downloaded/burned Ubuntu Hardy and 
the system is clean, nothing on it only entirely default. This is the 
most common place to start with the new releases, is it?

Take it into account that most people are not designer and they have to 
be treated as such whom are not an expert in theming. Our coordination 
should lead us in that direction where simple user is the target, their 
level of knowledge, understanding to make theme changes on the system. 
Their limitation is the understanding, what do they understand and able 
to do with their Linux system.

Why I say this? I do think our motto has to be SIMPLICITY and we have to 
present to the users the freedom of choice as the main direction in Open 
Source world.

Therefore: we should present one dark and one light theme from the same 
type but with different color. In fact it leaves one question open which 
one would be default in the release. Kenneth, do we have possibility to 
survey few hundreds of simple users?

Cheers, Erno [Szerencsefia]

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Toby Smithe]

On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 11:09 -0400, Jacob Padilla wrote:
> I agree that the engine should share long term support with the
> release. I don't however think system requirements need to be changed
> on this release and especially not on the account of something like a
> theme engine. Then again I'm also opposed to a LiveCD based standard
> install CD where if you don't meet the system req then you get the
> Debian installer based alternate CD, but that's off topic. 
> 
> Maybe there needs to be an all new (or rescued abandon ware or forked
> Clearlooks) GTK engine / window border / GDM theme maintained by
> Ubuntu? How else can long term support be guaranteed? It would be
> great for branding. 
> 

There is an engine, forked from Clearlooks (or so I believe). It's
called Ubuntulooks and it's the default.

Clearlooks isn't the default, or so I thought.



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[Jacob Padilla]

I agree that the engine should share long term support with the release. I
don't however think system requirements need to be changed on this release
and especially not on the account of something like a theme engine. Then
again I'm also opposed to a LiveCD based standard install CD where if you
don't meet the system req then you get the Debian installer based alternate
CD, but that's off topic.

Maybe there needs to be an all new (or rescued abandon ware or forked
Clearlooks) GTK engine / window border / GDM theme maintained by Ubuntu? How
else can long term support be guaranteed? It would be great for branding.

On 11/2/07, Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 11/2/07, Jacob Padilla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200608/light_text_on_dark_background_vs_readability/
> >
> >
> > I've read before about the poor accessibility of light text on dark
> > background so I'm not really sure it's a good choice for a default theme. I,
> > personally, think it looks cool and trendy but that doesn't make it a good
> > decision for a default setting on a product with such a wide release.
>
>
> I agree.
>
> As far as Aurora goes, it looks nice but if it's a resource hog then it
> > too shouldn't be a default. If it's a resource hog then you have to ask
> > yourself, "Why is it hogging resources? Is it calling a lot of different
> > modules or something?" I guess what I'm trying to say is that with more
> > bloat comes more bugs.
> >
>
> Let me play the devil's advocate and point out that with 7.10 the system
> requirements changed requiring a minimum of 384M of RAM + whatever is needed
> by the video card if that applies to you. Hardy will be around for quite a
> while and will be the platform future versions. I think its OK if we switch
> to a theme that requires more horse power. (IMHO)
>
> Now that being said, Hardy will be supported for 3 years, twice the length
> of 7.10... we don't want to choose something that in 14mo will be abandon
> ware. (though by merit of being included as the default in Ubuntu, a project
> will automatically gain wide notoriety) I think the time to make major
> changes was with the 7.04 and 7.10 releases and maybe instead of changing
> the theme engine for Hardy we should work on polishing what we're already
> using.
> --
> Matthew Nuzum
> newz2000 on freenode
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme

[xl cheese]

Considering that direction I played with combining the human them and the new 
gummy clearlooks theme.  The clearlooks is cool because it accepts color 
customization from the appearance panel.
http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Human+w%2Bgummy+clearlooks.++?content=67957
 
Other ideas we can roll into this idea are to create an extra accent color 
option on the appearance panel.  This would allow us to change metacity and say 
the panel/panel buttons 
independently from prelights and active things.
 
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/ColorOptionsforThemes
 
One other note on the new clearlooks engine is that it implements gradients on 
the menubar and toolbar.  Two styles are supported,  GUMMY and GLOSSY.  It'd be 
nice to be able to select which one you want from the appearance panel and have 
the theme implement it.  That shouldn't be too hard to do.  
 
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/PolishedOrSatinI want 
to play with the above theme some more and make the metacity and 
panel/panelbuttons dark.  The previous metacity ideas on this list are nice.


Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:27:32 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [ubuntu-art] Hardy GTK Theme...to make major changes was 
with the 7.04 and 7.10 releases and maybe instead of changing the theme engine 
for Hardy we should work on polishing what we're already using.-- Matthew 
Nuzumnewz2000 on freenode 
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