Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
2012/4/11 Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com: There's somewhat more to it than that. The major issue (among many other issues) is that the new GUIs don't do the things that used to be available on the old one (Gnome 2). Example: I can't add a good system monitor to Gnome 3 because the old gnome-system-monitor applet (being an applet at all, apparently) is incompatible with Gnome 3. Not sure about the system monitor applet case (I'm not using one), but there is at least indicator-multiload now. For me, usually using development versions and not sticking with LTS, losing the weather information was unfortunate at the time. Currently I'm personally not missing anything anymore (although weather info should be a default feature), and the Unity in 12.04 feels more productive than GNOME 2 ever did. Mostly because of super + (shift + ) numbers, super + (shift +) alt + arrows and the Dash search features, plus the screen space (even though I've 1600x900 display). The search features for accessing recent documents and apps is much nicer than browsing through the menus, at least after getting used to it. It did take learning time to become not annoyed with Unity, although now if I'd start with 12.04 the situation would be more welcome, because it's that much more stable and faster. I'm not that much against change, so the biggest irritation for me was all the bugs previously. Also the simple thing of showing quick help when keeping Super pressed down helps a lot in learning how to use Unity more powerfully. I can understand the pain people have gone through if using Unity since 11.04 (I didn't start to use it back then). I was annoyed with the lack of application menu for a long time, but finally nowadays using the search feels natural and fast, plus navigating menus manually on 10.04 LTS machines feels clunky. Super + A is also available for an access to a list, but I'd prefer it'd be expanded without an extra click. Still, it's not for everyone of course, and is a big change as a sudden switch kind of thing. I also hadn't even realized the missing graphical way of doing desktop launchers, so I learned something from this thread as well. Obviously I haven't used desktop launchers for anything, since I prefer using terminal anyway for such use cases that I could possibly do custom launchers. And I have a big .ssh/config, yes :) -Timo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre mathieu...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com wrote: [...] So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we have, haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the GUI(s) of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current offerings? Have you considered trying the other window manager that are available for installation? Between Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu which each install their own different window manager by default; and being able to install GNOME Shell (gnome-shell) to replace Unity (or gnome-session-fallback for a GNOME2-like look), there's a fair amount of choice. No matter which option you'll choose, there is bound to be some amount of change in the look and feel, since even GNOME is moving away from what you're used to seeing in 10.04 with the two panels. That will mean some amount of relearning, with a varying transition period depending on your choice. As far as I can tell, from an LTS to LTS upgrade perspective it's all a matter of choosing whether you want to spend increasing amounts of time figuring out how to get the same look you were used to, or spending a (relatively) finite amount of time relearning interface to familiarize yourself with new window manager of choice. That's true for all other distros at this point in time, the difference is that Ubuntu has chosen to go with Unity as the default window manager for Ubuntu Desktop installs (as opposed to Kubuntu or others). There's somewhat more to it than that. The major issue (among many other issues) is that the new GUIs don't do the things that used to be available on the old one (Gnome 2). Example: I can't add a good system monitor to Gnome 3 because the old gnome-system-monitor applet (being an applet at all, apparently) is incompatible with Gnome 3. There are Gnome Shell implementations that are buggy and incomplete, of course, but I see no good reason to use a buggy and incomplete anything if a fully-functional version has been available for years. Of course, that's just a minor example, and won't be relevant for everyone; but the overall principle is important: what used to work no longer works. This goes beyond simply learning to click the new places; it's a matter of missing functionality and bugs. Scott, you said that Canonical is railroading Ubuntu to use Unity. Is this 100% certain? Also, is it 100% certain that Unity *must* continue in the direction it's currently moving in? It seems to have been optimized for netbooks, and as such, lacks much of what desktop (and large laptop) users find essential and/or appropriate. Do you know if there will be a desktop-centric version in the foreseeable future? Has there been any discussion of it? Finally, would a petition with, say, 100,000 signatures (or whatever large number seems appropriate), delivered to Mark Shuttleworth, be enough to get some say in this? Thanks for your input, everybody. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Le 11/04/2012 09:39, Dane Mutters a écrit : It seems to have been optimized for netbooks, and as such, lacks much of what desktop (and large laptop) users find essential and/or appropriate. Hi, That's simply not true, unity works great on a big screen (using a 24 screen here), it gives out most of the space for your work, has excellent keyboard navigation (now with the HUD you can as well access the menus without having to move the mouse at all) and the launcher and dash are friendly to mouse users as well. -- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 12:11:47AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 08:46:23 PM Dane Mutters wrote: Ubuntu is on a train and that train is called Unity. The tracks are being laid within Canonical and it is very difficult to influence where they are being put down from the outside. The Canonical design team has started to engage the community to discuss some of the relevant issues (although I haven't been following the details). You should accept that you aren't going to make major changes in where Unity is headed. It just isn't going to happen from the outside. You can either get on this Unity train or pick another one. Those are really the choices. Personally, I run Kubuntu. Xubuntu is also very popular. I believe that there is a community forming around the idea of trying to similarly provide a Gnome 3 experience from within the Ubuntu project. You need to figure out which one you like best. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Lets put this in context. The final say is the customer. Ubuntu has got some problems right now, not just in the GUI, and I know of some sysadmins who have, after much strong language, gone back to straight Debian in the rack as well. I have been installing and recommending Ubuntu for the rack and desktop for several years now. I'm not religious about it. It's just a tool. If the tool becomes unfit or less effective for the purpose, I'll move to something else, as will many many others for whom this is just a business and is their livelihood. Even Microsoft has had problems with their attempts to change the GUI, even though they have kept much compatibility... people are still installing Windows XP Pro and many large offices have refused to upgrade. Why? Because the loss of productivity during a change of procedures they don't need and the retraining costs and down time for staff. I would be happy enough if you would put a selection panel with radio buttons itemizing the major choices for GUI. Pre-tick the Unity. But put installers a mouse click away from what they actually want. This peeve is a larger one though. A change in GUI should always be an optional exercise for an office. Anything that affects a business should be a matter of choice by the customer. Oh, and guys, get your act together on the virtual machine stuff... that was why one very senior sysadmin pulled Ubuntu and swore he'd never install it again... it was taking down a VM hosting machine every day or so and giving the ISP no end of grief from customers who were paying for high reliability service. He went to Debian squeeze and there have been no crashes in the last 6 months. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 12:39:51 AM Dane Mutters wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre mathieu...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com wrote: [...] So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we have, haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the GUI(s) of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current offerings? Have you considered trying the other window manager that are available for installation? Between Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu which each install their own different window manager by default; and being able to install GNOME Shell (gnome-shell) to replace Unity (or gnome-session-fallback for a GNOME2-like look), there's a fair amount of choice. No matter which option you'll choose, there is bound to be some amount of change in the look and feel, since even GNOME is moving away from what you're used to seeing in 10.04 with the two panels. That will mean some amount of relearning, with a varying transition period depending on your choice. As far as I can tell, from an LTS to LTS upgrade perspective it's all a matter of choosing whether you want to spend increasing amounts of time figuring out how to get the same look you were used to, or spending a (relatively) finite amount of time relearning interface to familiarize yourself with new window manager of choice. That's true for all other distros at this point in time, the difference is that Ubuntu has chosen to go with Unity as the default window manager for Ubuntu Desktop installs (as opposed to Kubuntu or others). There's somewhat more to it than that. The major issue (among many other issues) is that the new GUIs don't do the things that used to be available on the old one (Gnome 2). Example: I can't add a good system monitor to Gnome 3 because the old gnome-system-monitor applet (being an applet at all, apparently) is incompatible with Gnome 3. There are Gnome Shell implementations that are buggy and incomplete, of course, but I see no good reason to use a buggy and incomplete anything if a fully-functional version has been available for years. Of course, that's just a minor example, and won't be relevant for everyone; but the overall principle is important: what used to work no longer works. This goes beyond simply learning to click the new places; it's a matter of missing functionality and bugs. Scott, you said that Canonical is railroading Ubuntu to use Unity. Is this 100% certain? Also, is it 100% certain that Unity *must* continue in the direction it's currently moving in? It seems to have been optimized for netbooks, and as such, lacks much of what desktop (and large laptop) users find essential and/or appropriate. Do you know if there will be a desktop-centric version in the foreseeable future? Has there been any discussion of it? Finally, would a petition with, say, 100,000 signatures (or whatever large number seems appropriate), delivered to Mark Shuttleworth, be enough to get some say in this? They are on a path. The chances of them getting off the path in the near term are, IMO, nil. Your criticisms aren't unique, so I don't think they will get anywhere. Their view seems to be something like, We understand it's different and uncomfortable to change, but in the long run, you'll love it - trust us. I don't know more than anyone else about what their future plans are (probably less since I'm not a Unity user). That said, if you can find specific things you are having problems with and make specific suggestions about how to solve the problems that are generally their direction, you've got a chance of being heard. Go back to what it was has no chance at all. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
That said, if you can find specific things you are having problems with and make specific suggestions about how to solve the problems that are generally their direction, you've got a chance of being heard. Go back to what it was has no chance at all.https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss Scott, I appreciate your directness and honesty. For me, I think I'll move away from Ubuntu entirely until things get sorted out. I hope it won't be terribly long, though I note that it took several years to get the already-existing Gnome 2 fully usable. Maybe this will be different. In truth, if they can make Unity as good as Gnome 2 was (or better), and not terribly inconvenient or time-consuming to learn, I won't really care that it's not what I used to use. I'm just extremely frustrated with not having functionality that I've previously relied upon. (Dale, I sympathize with you strongly on this, as do many others.) If anyone can recommend a good, full-featured distribution that fills the same basic niche as Ubuntu, for use in the meantime, I'd be happy to hear your suggestions (as might others). (I might go with an RPM distro, since my Canon printer seems to hate DEB systems.) If I might recommend one final thing...can the essence of this discussion be somehow posted in an easy-to-find place on Ubuntu's various web pages and forums? It would be helpful to have an official notice that this is how it is, and it's not going back to how it was. It would save a lot of people (like me) a lot of trouble in trying to present ideas about what's unsatisfactory and needs changing, seeing as the direction of development apparently finds such input (concerning the GUI) unimportant at this time. As a policy, I find this quite unfortunate, but if that's just how it is, a simple warning would be nice. Thanks. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:54:55 -0700 Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com wrote: If I might recommend one final thing...can the essence of this discussion be somehow posted in an easy-to-find place on Ubuntu's various web pages and forums? It would be helpful to have an official notice that this is how it is, and it's not going back to how it was. It would save a lot of people (like me) a lot of trouble in trying to present ideas about what's unsatisfactory and needs changing, seeing as the direction of development apparently finds such input (concerning the GUI) unimportant at this time. As a policy, I find this quite unfortunate, but if that's just how it is, a simple warning would be nice. I think you are expanding and assuming results, decisions, and consequences over what has been said on this thread. 1. I am pretty sure Unity development will look at, and hear, on any well-explained, decent complaint. 2. I am sorry, but Gnome 3 sucks, and Unity sucks more is *not* what I am referring to above. 3. I do not remember anyone involved on Unity development stating that s/he finds such input (concerning the GUI) unimportant at this time. 4. I see no official notice of this is how it is(...) What we had was a rant followed by another rant followed by... I do not know, I stopped in the middle of the second rant. ScootK was very right when referring to the delete option. A lot of people left KDE when KDE4 was put out. A lot returned, others went elsewhere. A lot of people will leave Gnome3, or replace by whatever interface is changing the paradigm. It happens, people (in general) do not like change. But if I do not like something, and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it is wrong. I have not seen this here. Cheers, ..C.. signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 12:39:51AM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote: desktop-centric version in the foreseeable future? Has there been any discussion of it? Finally, would a petition with, say, 100,000 signatures (or whatever large number seems appropriate), delivered to Mark Shuttleworth, be enough to get some say in this? Well, you could tell Mark that I'm one of the Directors of the National Space Society and often consult with NewSpace companies... I was considering Ubuntu for use in a NewSpace application but I'm now getting very antsy about the idea. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 02:01:22PM -0500, C de-Avillez wrote: A lot of people left KDE when KDE4 was put out. A lot returned, others went elsewhere. A lot of people will leave Gnome3, or replace by whatever interface is changing the paradigm. It happens, people (in general) do not like change. But if I do not like something, and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it is wrong. That is not really the nature of the discussion. Ubuntu is a product. Real people use it in business and often in mission critical applications. If Ubuntu wishes to gain market share, then it must meet customer needs and not cause undue havoc with the operations of companies all over the world. That is what has been quite clearly stated, not as a rant and in a measured and professional tone, by professionals who have advocated the use of your product. You need to be nice to the people who do that. It is not my job to help you build your product. My job is to develop my own products using your (or another if necessary) platform that is suitable to purpose. I have not seen this here. You are looking for a primarily technical discussion. This has been primarily a business operations discussion. That is something I am sure Mark Shuttleworth should understand and appreciate. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Le 11/04/2012 21:21, Dale Amon a écrit : If Ubuntu wishes to gain market share, then it must meet customer needs and not cause undue havoc with the operations of companies all over the world. Well, that's why Ubuntu has LTS versions and extended support to 5 years for this one, so people who need stability can plan migration on a 5 years period, you still have to deal with changes but that's true for most OSes. You also assume that - what you used before was meet(ing) customer needs better than Unity, it might be true for you or your customer, it doesn't mean your case is the most common one in the world - companies care much about the desktop chrome...often they don't, they care about the services and softwares they run, performances, stability - that choise is taken away from you, it's not, Unity got added, gnome-shell got added, still gnome-panel (gnome classic) is still available are xubuntu, kubuntu, etc. Nothing also stop you to run lucid for another year if you are happy with it, it's still supported, and maybe revisit options then... -- Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 09:33:54PM +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote: You also assume that - what you used before was meet(ing) customer needs better than Unity, it might be true for you or your customer, it doesn't mean your case is the most common one in the world Just curious, what is the customer base you are working with? I do systems for investor conferences (for a large NY bank); various moderate sized accountancy firms (DC area) and a number of aerospace companies (New Space market segment, ie private space). I also often work side by side with techs from the big broadcast networks and guys who have worked on Wall Street. (It's nice work while the contracts are running... I'd do nicely if those gigs were more regular.) The folks I deal with have racks of gear in colo's in Manhattan. Also, I've been around the patch a bit and know a lot of folks and what their requirements are... hint: my first program was in Fortran on a 360/67 at Carnegie Mellon. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Dale Amon a...@vnl.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 02:01:22PM -0500, C de-Avillez wrote: A lot of people left KDE when KDE4 was put out. A lot returned, others went elsewhere. A lot of people will leave Gnome3, or replace by whatever interface is changing the paradigm. It happens, people (in general) do not like change. But if I do not like something, and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it is wrong. That is not really the nature of the discussion. Ubuntu is a product. Real people use it in business and often in mission critical applications. If Ubuntu wishes to gain market share, then it must meet customer needs and not cause undue havoc with the operations of companies all over the world. That is what has been quite clearly stated, not as a rant and in a measured and professional tone, by professionals who have advocated the use of your product. You need to be nice to the people who do that. It is not my job to help you build your product. My job is to develop my own products using your (or another if necessary) platform that is suitable to purpose. I have not seen this here. You are looking for a primarily technical discussion. This has been primarily a business operations discussion. That is something I am sure Mark Shuttleworth should understand and appreciate. There is a significant difference between Ubuntu, the FOSS Linux distribution, and Canonical, the corporation. If you want to have a business discussion, it should be with someone with an @canonical.com or some thirdy party business/ consultant. In the context of a Linux distribution being more technically focused is quite appropriate and expected. Unless you're writing a check to someone, you aren't a customer. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Dale, please note that this is the ubuntu-devel-discuss list. You are not talking to Canonical. You're not even talking to the main developer list ubuntu-devel. This is an open-to-anyone list and I don't even know how many developers pay attention to it. They certainly pay less attention to a thread with a title like this one. This is a place where people, mostly volunteers, typically try to get started in making technical contributions to Ubuntu, which is why people keep trying to steer the conversation back to concrete suggestions, bug reports, etc. That's how we get stuff done here. If you want to talk business, this is not the right place, nor is it the right place to get someone else to talk business on your behalf. To talk business, I'd suggest either giving Canonical a call, or looking at the huge variety of support options (from Canonical and from many many others) at http://www.ubuntu.com/support If you're not interested in a business relationship (which might well involve money), perhaps you could take it up with the Technical Board, or the Community Council. Or really get involved, by coming to the Ubuntu Developer Summit, or digging in to the aspect of Ubuntu where you could have the best leverage. But this is not the place to address the concerns you have, at least in the way you're trying to frame them. Neal McBurnett http://neal.mcburnett.org/ On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 09:04:47PM +0100, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 09:33:54PM +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote: You also assume that - what you used before was meet(ing) customer needs better than Unity, it might be true for you or your customer, it doesn't mean your case is the most common one in the world Just curious, what is the customer base you are working with? I do systems for investor conferences (for a large NY bank); various moderate sized accountancy firms (DC area) and a number of aerospace companies (New Space market segment, ie private space). I also often work side by side with techs from the big broadcast networks and guys who have worked on Wall Street. (It's nice work while the contracts are running... I'd do nicely if those gigs were more regular.) The folks I deal with have racks of gear in colo's in Manhattan. Also, I've been around the patch a bit and know a lot of folks and what their requirements are... hint: my first program was in Fortran on a 360/67 at Carnegie Mellon. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
What we had was a rant followed by another rant followed by... I do not know, I stopped in the middle of the second rant. ScootK was very right when referring to the delete option. ... But if I do not like something, and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it is wrong. C., Judging by your statements, above, it's quite clear that you haven't read most of this thread, and thereby have no real idea as to what the tenor of (most of) this discussion has been. It's therefore counterproductive for you to make disparaging claims about the conduct of others, whose conduct you apparently haven't actually taken any notice of. Please read the previous posts before assuming you have anything worthwhile to say about them. Everyone else, I'm aware that this is the -discuss list, and in point of fact, I subscribed (and occasionally participated on) the -devel list for years until a faction of the developers decided (with some good reason) that they didn't want non-developers on that list, and restricted all emails from those without special permission. Even then, I occasionally made suggestions and (what I thought were) intelligent comments, only to be faced with a process of waiting for my every email to be moderated, then being summarily told that my input wasn't important to anyone there (in many cases). So, while, yes, this isn't the list that most devs give a hoot about, and, in fact, seem to regard more as dev-null than dev-discuss, there simply isn't a better place to voice such concerns, and I'm pretty sure that it's by design. (To be fair, some people had been obnoxious on the old -devel list, so some of this behavior is understandable, if not justified.) As for the title of the thread, and whether this discussion should, instead, be with canonical: I asked both of those things, already (re-read my emails if you don't believe me), and got either no response, or (implicit) confirmation that this was as good a place as any. If you had something to say back then, why didn't you say it? Scott's replies were informative, and I thought I responded sensibly to them; did I misunderstand? (Those whose previous comments fit into the description of behaviors in this message are encouraged to keep their mouths shut, for once.) I'm sorry that this email has a much more angry tone than usual (for me, anyway), but asinine double-speak and baseless accusations (see the first paragraph) really bother me, and I know it's not just a personal quirk that they do; one would be hard-pressed to find anyone who isn't at least a little bothered by such behavior. For what it's worth, I came into this discussion hoping to outline specific problems in the GUI design process and come to useful conclusions about how to fix it. It would seem that, while many of the people here are, indeed, worth talking to, there are enough who are certainly not, that such an effort is basically wasted. I'm sorry that this list is insufficiently tolerant/intelligent/wise to value what would, in other circles, be worthwhile conversation. Regretfully, --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 08:44:18 PM Dane Mutters wrote: For what it's worth, I came into this discussion hoping to outline specific problems in the GUI design process and come to useful conclusions about how to fix it. It would seem that, while many of the people here are, indeed, worth talking to, there are enough who are certainly not, that such an effort is basically wasted. I'm sorry that this list is insufficiently tolerant/intelligent/wise to value what would, in other circles, be worthwhile conversation. Part of the problem you're having in this discussion is that Ubuntu developers don't develop Unity. It's a separate project within Canonical that operates much like any upstream does. The distribution developers have some influence and do, in some cases, contribute to it, but it's not primarily their work. If you're trying to reach the driving minds behind Unity, this isn't the right place. There is a mailing list, called unity-design or some similar title that might be better. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Part of the problem you're having in this discussion is that Ubuntu developers don't develop Unity. It's a separate project within Canonical that operates much like any upstream does. The distribution developers have some influence and do, in some cases, contribute to it, but it's not primarily their work. If you're trying to reach the driving minds behind Unity, this isn't the right place. There is a mailing list, called unity-design or some similar title that might be better. Scott K That's very good to know; thanks, Scott. It's also heartening to hear that it's not the Ubuntu devs (for whom I generally have a lot of respect) who are pushing this madness forward, but people who are working directly for Canonical--rather than simply being directed by canonical. I apologize to any developers toward whom I've been unjustly been harsh. My previous criticisms of certain denizens of this list stand, but at least now it's clear that most of the Unity culprits are elsewhere. Thanks for the clarification. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:26:50PM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote: Oh it goes well and truely far beyond that. Some pinhead decided to move /var/run to /run without leaving a symlink or informing and updating packages. I had an unfortunate 10.04 LTS system go unbootable until I got onto the console to fix it so networking could even come up since on that machine it was depending on dhcp and a handful of other things to check in via the FHS accepted and everything but ubuntu /var/run. And this was a normal system. Whose stupid idea was *that*? The same moron who was pissing and moaning about moving all binaries into /bin or some other idiocy? I am so very glad I never bought the Linux desktop coolaide. Though I guess Windows 8 designed for mobile and tablets is getting pushed to the desktop too so precise may as well break the long standing /var/run practice of this is where pid files go without fixing any stock packages. /rant Michael and others, I realize it can be very satisfying to deliver a well-placed rant, but I hope I'm not out of line to remind everyone that without moderating our language to be as unoffensive as possible, no web conversation can be very productive. The issues you've brought up are, of course, quite valid; I only suggest that the conversation avoid inflammatory epithets (whose stupid idea..., etc.), and that we try to get to the root of whatever problem exists with the help of those who generously donate their time to Ubuntu, rather than ranting at those same people. I realize that my own language has been pretty blunt, but within the bounds of explaining an issue, I hope I haven't been too offensive. Also, if this thread isn't the appropriate place to discuss problems with development trends, etc., then will somebody please inform me/us of where such a discussion would be more appropriate? I've taken the liberty of posting my essay on my blog, at: http://danemutters.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/on-the-state-of-linux-gui-development/ ...in case people find it more appropriate to deal with the issues there. I'll make a point of moderating inflammatory comments there (hopefully without stifling any worthwhile ideas in the process). All are free to comment on the blog, so long as we're respectful. Oh,come on. Let's not start this again. What is it about the various Ubuntu lists that causes the Manners Police to fire up their computers to pop out how we unwashed masses should comport ourselves every time the discussion gets a little spirited? I assume the people on this list are adults, capable of reading things like pinhead, stupid, moron, etc without getting the vapors and reaching for the smelling salts. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:26:22 PM Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:26:50PM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote: ... Oh,come on. Let's not start this again. What is it about the various Ubuntu lists that causes the Manners Police to fire up their computers to pop out how we unwashed masses should comport ourselves every time the discussion gets a little spirited? I assume the people on this list are adults, capable of reading things like pinhead, stupid, moron, etc without getting the vapors and reaching for the smelling salts. Certainly. The delete key works great for such cases. If you want to contribute to the Ubuntu community in a way that is going to be effective, then poorly written rants aren't the best way to go about it. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 08:46:23 PM Dane Mutters wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.comwrote: On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:26:22 PM Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:26:50PM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote: ... Oh,come on. Let's not start this again. What is it about the various Ubuntu lists that causes the Manners Police to fire up their computers to pop out how we unwashed masses should comport ourselves every time the discussion gets a little spirited? I assume the people on this list are adults, capable of reading things like pinhead, stupid, moron, etc without getting the vapors and reaching for the smelling salts. Certainly. The delete key works great for such cases. If you want to contribute to the Ubuntu community in a way that is going to be effective, then poorly written rants aren't the best way to go about it. Scott K So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we have, haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the GUI(s) of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current offerings? I think we've outlined the problem fairly well (thanks to those who have posted thus far), though further explanation would, of course, be welcome, should something be missing. Scott K, you've typically been a voice of reason on the Ubuntu mailing lists in the past; do you have any insights? Anyone else? Ubuntu is on a train and that train is called Unity. The tracks are being laid within Canonical and it is very difficult to influence where they are being put down from the outside. The Canonical design team has started to engage the community to discuss some of the relevant issues (although I haven't been following the details). You should accept that you aren't going to make major changes in where Unity is headed. It just isn't going to happen from the outside. You can either get on this Unity train or pick another one. Those are really the choices. Personally, I run Kubuntu. Xubuntu is also very popular. I believe that there is a community forming around the idea of trying to similarly provide a Gnome 3 experience from within the Ubuntu project. You need to figure out which one you like best. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com wrote: [...] So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we have, haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the GUI(s) of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current offerings? Have you considered trying the other window manager that are available for installation? Between Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu which each install their own different window manager by default; and being able to install GNOME Shell (gnome-shell) to replace Unity (or gnome-session-fallback for a GNOME2-like look), there's a fair amount of choice. No matter which option you'll choose, there is bound to be some amount of change in the look and feel, since even GNOME is moving away from what you're used to seeing in 10.04 with the two panels. That will mean some amount of relearning, with a varying transition period depending on your choice. As far as I can tell, from an LTS to LTS upgrade perspective it's all a matter of choosing whether you want to spend increasing amounts of time figuring out how to get the same look you were used to, or spending a (relatively) finite amount of time relearning interface to familiarize yourself with new window manager of choice. That's true for all other distros at this point in time, the difference is that Ubuntu has chosen to go with Unity as the default window manager for Ubuntu Desktop installs (as opposed to Kubuntu or others). Regards, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre mathieu...@ubuntu.com Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu...@gmail.com 4096R/EE018C93 1967 8F7D 03A1 8F38 732E FF82 C126 33E1 EE01 8C93 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On 04/08/2012 11:14 PM, Dane Mutters wrote: John, So, while I'm, in fact, all /for /speaking bluntly, I also see the quandary that speaking too bluntly produces when being wrong (for the owners of a work) would mean that the months they spent on a particular project would all be for nothing, should they admit that they were actually wrong. All things have a balance. Direct personal attacks are less useful than attacks on a particular feature you don't like; attacks by proxy are also more useful than direct personal attacks (I don't know what idiot came up with this... that idiot is somewhere, but he's at least able to shuffle back into the crowd and hide...). Directly grabbing the developer in question and giving them a severe public dressing down is just not constructive--let's ignore the issue and lob personal attacks instead now eh? (Thorough dressings down are for the rare situation where the person in question is a severely destructive idiot--this doesn't happen much, aside from that one coworker we've all had that gets paid to creates problems for everyone else.) Either way, getting *too* uncivil is a bad thing. Strong language can be very useful in some forums; but in forums where it's strongly inappropriate you should pick your tone well enough to have the same effect. Railing on something by proxy on a glancing blow may be overstepping the bounds of civility, or it might be a needed slap alongside the head for someone; continuing to ignore the feature itself and continuously use it purely as a proxy to insult someone is just malicious and useless. We don't want to degenerate into a forum of continuous flame wars in any case; but the truth is the occasional burn serves to remind us that fire is hot and we should really pay attention to what we're doing. While you don't want to burn your house down, you also really don't want to freeze to death. That all said, let's keep it civil. Or at least let's go for a farce. Plus it's fun to read people speaking frankly, though if you spoke like a Franc I guess you'd have to use a lot more accents and apostrophes. Well said. ;-) If only brevity was my strong point. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 11:00:31PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: Oh it goes well and truely far beyond that. Some pinhead decided to move /var/run to /run without leaving a symlink or informing and updating packages. /var/run is a symlink to /run in 12.04. Perhaps you ran into a corner-case bug, but in general there's a symlink there for backward-compatibility. I had an unfortunate 10.04 LTS system go unbootable The switch to /run was in 11.10. via the FHS accepted and everything but ubuntu� /var/run. http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/RunDirectory#FAQ -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@ubuntu.com] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On the contrary, I found Michael's rant refreshing. Politically correct rants look like a lot of nitpicking over nothing. ... But of course a little We shouldn't do this, it's a bad idea just gets an enthusiastic push-back from strong-headed visionaries that think they're onto something. When the criticism starts coming in force and with sharp language, a threat to ration and reason is made--in other words: humans fear losing arguments in the same way they fear being punched in the face, and strong and vicious protest is threatening in that it makes being wrong particularly high impact. If the whole world is iffy but unenthused, they will swallow your crap and then complain--unenthusiastically--that it's not great. If you are being flamed and shouted at, then when the whole world doesn't turn around and realize how excellent your new ideas are--perhaps because they're not--you take a MAJOR social hit and suddenly nobody likes you, and as a bonus they also get it in their heads that anything you touch is a born disaster and probably will never come near you again. In other words, maybe you'll listen when people actually say what they mean instead of sucking all the emotional meaning out and presenting simple facts--facts which you may dispute with other simple facts. Facts are facts, whether they're true or false. Information is more than just facts: the emotional weight carries, and the presentation makes that. Do you honestly think Unity would have ever happened if Shuttleworth got called a pinhead whenever someone commented on the design proposal and subsequent betas? It would have been quickly abandoned as every single developer associated with the project ran for cover from the raining fire and brimstone. John, I can see that you make a good point; bad UI decisions would have been less likely to happen if at first they were savagely railed against, thereby causing the potential developers of those bad ideas to go elsewhere. The problem, as I see it, is that once the decisions have already had time and effort invested in them, it becomes a problem of, is all that work I did stupid/irrelevant? This, in addition to pressing the I can't be wrong! button, also presses the if I'm wrong, my work isn't valuable, so I'm not valuable button. This is, as I see it, the other side of the psychological coin that you aptly outlined above. Therefore, when a part of a person's sense of self worth is threatened by way of intense criticism, the normal response is to dig in and fight vehemently to protect the perceived value of one's work. Thus, no matter how bad an idea or system is, those who made it will be all the more stubborn if they feel like they can't concede gracefully. (Incidentally, this is similar to how [useless] bureaucracies become self-preserving.) So, while I'm, in fact, all *for *speaking bluntly, I also see the quandary that speaking too bluntly produces when being wrong (for the owners of a work) would mean that the months they spent on a particular project would all be for nothing, should they admit that they were actually wrong. As a side note, mentioning these psychological/social dynamics may well push the conversation further in that direction, but it would seem that it needs to be said (and under other circumstances, I wouldn't hesitate to aggravate everyone by saying them). Nobody likes to admit that their thought processes are irrational and/or emotional, since it means that on some level, they're being stupid by letting other things control any intelligence they might otherwise possess. This dynamic (all of the above, including what you've written) seems to have run rampant in the development of GUIs for the last year or so...but I hadn't exactly intended to expose this directly until you began doing so. (Now the beans are spilled...) Plus it's fun to read people speaking frankly, though if you spoke like a Franc I guess you'd have to use a lot more accents and apostrophes. Well said. ;-) --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
I'm not keen on getting involved in a debate, but since this issue affects my ability to be productive on Ubuntu, as well, I find it appropriate to inform the developers of it. I'm aware that there have been numerous complaint threads on this mailing list and others about some people finding Unity (and Gnome 3) basically unusable for their purposes. I'm in the same boat, and while I realize that +1 on this issue is basically pointless, the continued postings on the subject raise an important issue that's only being obliquely touched upon, for the most part: Ubuntu has decreased in usability for many people due to the all-out war on the old GUI. At this point is where someone says, use Gnome classic! This, however, proved rather problematic for me, and continues to be so for many others; also, it's both condescending and counterproductive to insist that users with genuine problems with the direction of development simply deal with the new GUI or switch back to a somewhat broken Gnome 2 that lacks significant pieces that made Gnome usable before these changes started. I'll mention a couple of examples, just to cursorily illustrate that I'm not simply blowing smoke, but ultimately it's something you have to use and have problems with to fully understand. 1) No system menu; everything is shoved into Applications Other. Having 30+ items here is utterly impractical, and I found that not everything even made it into a menu after System was removed. I often had to search the web for the program's actual name so that I could then open a terminal and type the command to let me do some basic administrative or customization task. This is greatly compounded when much of the menu is full of things that were designed for Unity or Gnome 3, and therefore do nothing useful for Gnome classic--or just as often break things. 2) Even if you can find everything in Gnome classic that you used to use in Gnome 2, half the stuff on a recent Ubuntu installation is stuff that breaks Gnome 2, or is only usable with Unity (and therefore Compiz), or Gnome 3. Furthermore, if you reset as much as you can to default for Gnome classic (delete config files in ~, etc.), you'll end up with programs that require working Unity/Gnome 3 components, but since you're no longer configured for those desktop environments, they'll be unpredictable and crash frequently. This is especially bad because Compiz breaks Unity (and its components) when not properly configured. I experienced crashing window manager, freezing, and even segfaults about every hour while using a stock install of Unity with just a few minor Compiz customizations. These crashes also carried over into Gnome classic, once I stopped using Unity. (Yes, I disabled Unity support and enabled Gnome support in Compiz.) Ultimately, I've been forced to switch to KDE on Linux Mint--neither of which I'm particularly fond of. The thing is, though, they work *for me* 10 times better than Ubuntu has since it dropped Gnome 2, so it's the best of several undesirable options. I'd love to go back to stock Ubuntu, but as long as the GUI is busy being re-invented (not just in Ubuntu, notably), I'm finding myself stuck dealing with Windows a lot more, and Linux--which I generally like much better--a lot less. I used to boot into Windows only to play games, but now I find that staying in Linux means spending lots of time arguing with unnecessary GUI problems. (I'm personally quite fed-up with it all, but I'm trying to be civil and rational so as to be productive, rather than a problem, in and of myself.) ...But all the above is only marginally relevant; the real problem, as I see it, is the development trend being espoused. I understand that it's great to invent new, exciting software, and I don't begrudge anybody of it. In fact, the mere fact that you bother to write for a free OS is admirable, and I commend you for it (for whatever that's worth). Unfortunately, it's been a consistent-but-growing trend in Linux development, generally, and Ubuntu, specifically, to make a piece of software *pretty* good, then whimsically decide that instead of making it *really* good, it's more fun/better/whatever to invent a completely new thing, based on better principles, technology, and so forth. Unfortunately, these good ideas rarely get fully realized before yet another set of good ideas emerges and causes working systems to be abandoned in favor of alpha-stage projects. This is a problem endemic to Linux as a whole, but it's been especially disappointing to see it infest the otherwise amazing Ubuntu. For an example, I note that Red Hat 7.2 had a rather good built-in, cross-environment menu editor. Then, the underlying software changed, and it was about 5 years until Gnome had a menu editor again (which Ubuntu's developers helped to create, as I understand it). Similarly, KDE3 had a good menu editor, but now that KDE4 is out, it's all but impossible to simply organize items by alphabetical
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Well said. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
I fully agree with you. I love Ubuntu but this new trend of reinventing things that are good but not prefect and then coming up with something that has a lot less functionality (in the beginning at least) is not a very good thing. However in defense of the Ubuntu developers it needs to be said, that this whole situation with Gnome has been caused by the gnome developers in the first place. To add one example to yours, the new print dialog that is available by default on oneiric has a lot less functionality then the tool from maverick. Unless one knows that the old print configuration tool is still available as system-config-printer (if i remember correctly) there is not even a way to configure the default page size. Cheers Lanoxx On 07/04/2012 13:52, Dane Mutters wrote: I'm not keen on getting involved in a debate, but since this issue affects my ability to be productive on Ubuntu, as well, I find it appropriate to inform the developers of it. I'm aware that there have been numerous complaint threads on this mailing list and others about some people finding Unity (and Gnome 3) basically unusable for their purposes. I'm in the same boat, and while I realize that +1 on this issue is basically pointless, the continued postings on the subject raise an important issue that's only being obliquely touched upon, for the most part: Ubuntu has decreased in usability for many people due to the all-out war on the old GUI. At this point is where someone says, use Gnome classic! This, however, proved rather problematic for me, and continues to be so for many others; also, it's both condescending and counterproductive to insist that users with genuine problems with the direction of development simply deal with the new GUI or switch back to a somewhat broken Gnome 2 that lacks significant pieces that made Gnome usable before these changes started. I'll mention a couple of examples, just to cursorily illustrate that I'm not simply blowing smoke, but ultimately it's something you have to use and have problems with to fully understand. 1) No system menu; everything is shoved into Applications Other. Having 30+ items here is utterly impractical, and I found that not everything even made it into a menu after System was removed. I often had to search the web for the program's actual name so that I could then open a terminal and type the command to let me do some basic administrative or customization task. This is greatly compounded when much of the menu is full of things that were designed for Unity or Gnome 3, and therefore do nothing useful for Gnome classic--or just as often break things. 2) Even if you can find everything in Gnome classic that you used to use in Gnome 2, half the stuff on a recent Ubuntu installation is stuff that breaks Gnome 2, or is only usable with Unity (and therefore Compiz), or Gnome 3. Furthermore, if you reset as much as you can to default for Gnome classic (delete config files in ~, etc.), you'll end up with programs that require working Unity/Gnome 3 components, but since you're no longer configured for those desktop environments, they'll be unpredictable and crash frequently. This is especially bad because Compiz breaks Unity (and its components) when not properly configured. I experienced crashing window manager, freezing, and even segfaults about every hour while using a stock install of Unity with just a few minor Compiz customizations. These crashes also carried over into Gnome classic, once I stopped using Unity. (Yes, I disabled Unity support and enabled Gnome support in Compiz.) Ultimately, I've been forced to switch to KDE on Linux Mint--neither of which I'm particularly fond of. The thing is, though, they work *for me* 10 times better than Ubuntu has since it dropped Gnome 2, so it's the best of several undesirable options. I'd love to go back to stock Ubuntu, but as long as the GUI is busy being re-invented (not just in Ubuntu, notably), I'm finding myself stuck dealing with Windows a lot more, and Linux--which I generally like much better--a lot less. I used to boot into Windows only to play games, but now I find that staying in Linux means spending lots of time arguing with unnecessary GUI problems. (I'm personally quite fed-up with it all, but I'm trying to be civil and rational so as to be productive, rather than a problem, in and of myself.) ...But all the above is only marginally relevant; the real problem, as I see it, is the development trend being espoused. I understand that it's great to invent new, exciting software, and I don't begrudge anybody of it. In fact, the mere fact that you bother to write for a free OS is admirable, and I commend you for it (for whatever that's worth). Unfortunately, it's been a consistent-but-growing trend in Linux development, generally, and Ubuntu, specifically, to make a piece of software *pretty* good, then whimsically decide that instead
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 09:22:35PM +0200, Lanoxx wrote: To add one example to yours, the new print dialog that is available by default on oneiric has a lot less functionality then the tool from maverick. Unless one knows that the old print configuration tool is still available as system-config-printer (if i remember correctly) there is not even a way to configure the default page size. That may be an absolute show stopper for me. It still works in Oneiric on my laptop (I set it back to classic), but if it went away, I would be in deep, deep excrement. I regularly travel back and forth between the UK (A4 paper) and the US (Letter) and trade documents back and forth and print them on a daily basis. I'm constantly fiddling the printouts in the print and print preview panels. It never even occurred to me that something so incredibly basic could be allowed to go out the door broken. I'm going to have to wait a good long while and get my hands on a system that can be used to test whether Precise can be made suitable to purpose for my business needs or not. But perhaps this has been fixed in Precise. If not, there are going to be a lot of very angry business people out there... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Sent from my Motorola Xoom On Apr 1, 2012 6:23 AM, Dale Amon a...@vnl.com wrote: With the release date for the new LTS coming rapidly, I am faced with a quandary. There are things in Precise which I need; I do not like to be behind the curve for updates and such; but I just *cannot* have my desktop mucked about with. Oh it goes well and truely far beyond that. Some pinhead decided to move /var/run to /run without leaving a symlink or informing and updating packages. I had an unfortunate 10.04 LTS system go unbootable until I got onto the console to fix it so networking could even come up since on that machine it was depending on dhcp and a handful of other things to check in via the FHS accepted and everything but ubuntu /var/run. And this was a normal system. Whose stupid idea was *that*? The same moron who was pissing and moaning about moving all binaries into /bin or some other idiocy? I am so very glad I never bought the Linux desktop coolaide. Though I guess Windows 8 designed for mobile and tablets is getting pushed to the desktop too so precise may as well break the long standing /var/run practice of this is where pid files go without fixing any stock packages. /rant -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Rodney Dawes rodney.da...@ubuntu.comwrote: Ditën e Mon, 02/04/2012 më 13.57 -0600, Vernon Cole ka shkruar: So there it is. All we want is all the new stuff -- along with everything we had before. Is that too much to ask? There is nothing preventing you from installing and using the classic gnome interface. I tried that once, and got only old generic gnome stuff. all of the neat Ubuntu stuff was missing. As I said, I am greedy and want both. This list isn't about Unity design or implementation details discussion. If you want to discuss those problems, file bugs or bring it up on the appropriate Unity list (probably unity-design). Dear Rodney: Perhaps you have actually pinpointed the problem. If Unity developers don't realize that they are also Ubuntu developers, then no wonder things don't work quite like they ought. Maybe somebody in this group needs to make sure that somebody from that group is assigned to follow this one. At your suggestion, I went looking around for some appropriate list. I found a blog which seems to be used by the designers to talk with each other, but no list as such, or much of a way for an outsider to present ideas -- especially critical ideas.Do you have a URL to refer me to, or were you just trying to get rid of a lurker? I am _trying_ to contribute to my favorite distro, and I have learned over the years that a timely question from a concerned onlooker can sometimes eliminate real problems. When you are driving down the road and notice that people keep pointing at your car, you probably should stop and find out what they are pointing at -- it's probably the gas cap you forgot to replace. A quick glance at the Unity blogs makes me fear that they are so busy envisioning the wonderful trees they are planning to grow, that they have forgotten to tend the forest today. I have been guilty of the same thing -- so busy making a new program design elegant. that I forgot that I also had to make it _work_. Please forward this to the appropriate persons. I'm afraid that pointing and shouting warnings is really the most I can contribute. Learning how to navigate your bureaucracy and whom to lobby is a bit beyond me. -- Vernon -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On 03/04/12 10:26, Vernon Cole wrote: On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Rodney Dawes rodney.da...@ubuntu.com mailto:rodney.da...@ubuntu.com wrote: Ditën e Mon, 02/04/2012 më 13.57 -0600, Vernon Cole ka shkruar: So there it is. All we want is all the new stuff -- along with everything we had before. Is that too much to ask? There is nothing preventing you from installing and using the classic gnome interface. I tried that once, and got only old generic gnome stuff. all of the neat Ubuntu stuff was missing. As I said, I am greedy and want both. More and more applets are being ported to GTK+3 and will be available in the classic mode of gnome 3. For example with the 12.04 release you can install the indicator-applet package again, which gives you back all the nice indicators that ubuntu used to have in gnome 2 in older versions. Together with the gnome-tweak-tool there is really not much difference to how gnome 2 used to be. This list isn't about Unity design or implementation details discussion. If you want to discuss those problems, file bugs or bring it up on the appropriate Unity list (probably unity-design). Dear Rodney: Perhaps you have actually pinpointed the problem. If Unity developers don't realize that they are also Ubuntu developers, then no wonder things don't work quite like they ought. Maybe somebody in this group needs to make sure that somebody from that group is assigned to follow this one. At your suggestion, I went looking around for some appropriate list. I found a blog which seems to be used by the designers to talk with each other, but no list as such, or much of a way for an outsider to present ideas -- especially critical ideas.Do you have a URL to refer me to, or were you just trying to get rid of a lurker? I am _trying_ to contribute to my favorite distro, and I have learned over the years that a timely question from a concerned onlooker can sometimes eliminate real problems. When you are driving down the road and notice that people keep pointing at your car, you probably should stop and find out what they are pointing at -- it's probably the gas cap you forgot to replace. A quick glance at the Unity blogs makes me fear that they are so busy envisioning the wonderful trees they are planning to grow, that they have forgotten to tend the forest today. I have been guilty of the same thing -- so busy making a new program design elegant. that I forgot that I also had to make it _work_. Please forward this to the appropriate persons. I'm afraid that pointing and shouting warnings is really the most I can contribute. Learning how to navigate your bureaucracy and whom to lobby is a bit beyond me. -- Vernon -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Vernon Cole vernondc...@gmail.com wrote: At your suggestion, I went looking around for some appropriate list. I found a blog which seems to be used by the designers to talk with each other, but no list as such, or much of a way for an outsider to present ideas -- especially critical ideas. I guess you googled 'unity design list', but the results didn't give you a clear indication what to do. When I do that, I find http://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/ which points to https://launchpad.net/~unity-design (which has a somewhat disconcerting description) which is a public list you can join, which has a ton of discussion from unity developers and others about all topics of unity design https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/. That would be a good place to talk about it, rather than here, which has lots of non-Unity-related people. m -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On 4/1/2012 7:52 AM, Dale Amon wrote: Just as an example, I have about 30 terminals on my desktop. Clicking on one of them puts me directly into a server somewhere. I can have a customer on the phone, click once and be dealing with their problem almost instantly. And you think switching to a blank desktop, moving your hand to the mouse, scanning 30 icons for the one you want, and clicking on it, is faster than just typing ssh someserver into a terminal? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 03:17:46PM -0400, Phillip Susi wrote: On 4/1/2012 7:52 AM, Dale Amon wrote: Just as an example, I have about 30 terminals on my desktop. Clicking on one of them puts me directly into a server somewhere. I can have a customer on the phone, click once and be dealing with their problem almost instantly. And you think switching to a blank desktop, moving your hand to the mouse, scanning 30 icons for the one you want, and clicking on it, is faster than just typing ssh someserver into a terminal? Yes. I could do it in my sleep, in the semi dark. And I have. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Dale makes the case that I have wanted to present, but he says it better than I. Unity is still missing key components that some of us have really come to depend on. Until those gaps are filled in, we cannot be fully productive using Unity, and therefore don't think it's a good idea to switch to it. I have taken the Unity challenge, and the computer on which I am typing this -- my daily use laptop -- is running Unity. After several months of experience, I feel that I am qualified to give a better evaluation than my initial response, which, indeed was: Unity sucks. No, it doesn't. It's actually a pretty nice desktop which has a few serious warts. It works really well for a user with a limited set of applications -- the number which will fit on the pop-out bar (whatever it is being called this week) on the left side of the screen. Your average secretary or software engineer needs no more than that, and within those limitations, Unity is pretty, quick, and easy to use. But Dale is right, we need to talk about the warts. Wart 1 -- no menu. Removing the pull-down menu from the top bar did save a lot of space, and makes the screen look cleaner. It also eliminates a neat, hierarchical organization which lets me locate software that I use only occasionally. For example, I use Windows applications regularly, but rarely need to alter my Wine environment. When I do want to make a change it's easy (on my old boxes) -- just go down to the Wine submenu, and pick one of the four or five items there, I don't remember what they are called. But without an hierarchical organization, how do I find them? Scroll through screens full of large icons sorted in alphabetical order searching for something which might look familiar???!!! Insanity! Same for office applications, multimedia applications, infrequently used accessories... I also use Xubuntu 11.10 on a daily basis. It has a nice little menu system accessed from a little icon on the upper left edge of the screen -- even smaller then the Blue Ball which appears on the lower left corner of my Windows 7 box -- which also calls up an hierarchical menu. Solution: copy the Xubuntu menu system. It should also be called up when I hit the Windows key on my keyboard. Wart 2 -- no way to create a launcher. I think that it's really quite comical that when I click on the Bazaar Explorer icon on my desktop that the Windows version of Bazaar Explorer starts up. The shortcut (i.e.: launcher) was placed there by the Wine program loader when I installed bzr.exe. [Yes, I did that on purpose -- the Windows version does a better job of managing bazaar branches on NTFS volumes. On this dual-boot system, most of my storage is NTFS.] I am used to having about 1/4 of the space on my desktop cluttered with launchers for things which I my not use daily, but when I want them, I want them NOW, or want them to have root access. For example, on my 11.04 box I have launchers for Thunar and Wireshark under gksu -- so that I can conveniently move or modify system files, and monitor my ethernet interfaces. The nicest thing about using Ubuntu for a router is the ability to use Wireshark to see what application programs on the downstream network are doing. For that, you need a gui screen with root access. Easy if you have custom launchers -- very clumsy, otherwise. Solution A: (as on Xubuntu) left click on an empty desktop, select Create Launcher. Solution B: left click on an existing program icon, select Create Launcher. Wart 3 -- the active window is visually detached from its control menu. It took me over a month to discover that most of the things I was _really_ frustrated that Unity would not let me do, were actually easy. The control pull-down menu items that I needed were right there all along -- except that they had moved to the area formerly used for the system control menu at the upper left corner of the screen. Even after these many months I still have to remind myself to look 'way up there to find them. Also, it is hard to tell where the active window's controls end and the system's controls begin. Solution A: (perhaps) make the application's control menu's portion of the top bar the same colour as the frame on the active application window. The simultaneous colour change would create a visual and mental connection between the two screen areas. Solution B: Activate the pull-down menu when I hit the menu key on my keyboard. Wart 4 -- No one-click desktop switching. The present method: 1) Move the cursor to the left edge of the screen 2) wait a couple of seconds 3) move the cursor to the desktop switcher 4) click on it 5) move the cursor to the desired desktop 6) click twice -- is NOT one click. Imagine that I have my bank statement on a web browser on one desktop, and my financial application on the other. To do a reconciliation I must bounce back-and-forth between the two many times. Will the six-step process work for me? Solution A: have a
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm not very good at remembering those at 3am. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Monday, April 02, 2012 08:58:20 PM Dale Amon wrote: Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm not very good at remembering those at 3am. That's what ~/.ssh/config is for. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On 4/2/2012 3:58 PM, Dale Amon wrote: Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm not very good at remembering those at 3am. You can set you your ssh config to have those so you don't have to remember them, and then typing ssh somehost is faster and easier especially at 3am than clicking the correct icon. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Vernon Cole vernondc...@gmail.com wrote: -snip- For example, on my 11.04 box I have launchers for Thunar and Wireshark under gksu -- so that I can conveniently move or modify system files, and monitor my ethernet interfaces. The nicest thing about using Ubuntu for a router is the ability to use Wireshark to see what application programs on the downstream network are doing. For that, you need a gui screen with root access. Easy if you have custom launchers -- very clumsy, otherwise. -snip- I'm not up to commenting on the rest of your email, but as a brief tangent: running Wireshark as root is a bad idea and NOT recommended. Even ignoring the obvious security problems inherent in running the full application as root, Wireshark's design suffers several bugs when run as root user. It is quite possible to capture packets without full root permissions: you just have to follow the instructions in the file [1] (included in the wireshark-common package). I realize this isn't exactly discoverable - I've had a few talks with upstream already, and the process should be much more obvious in future versions. Evan [1] file:///usr/share/doc/wireshark-common/README.Debian -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On 04/02/2012 12:58 PM, Dale Amon wrote: Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm not very good at remembering those at 3am. As Jonathan initially replied this list is for Developer Discussion and there are more appropriate venues for support: http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community -- Benjamin Kerensa I am what I am because Team Lead, Ubuntu Oregon of who we all are - Ubuntu bkere...@ubuntu.com http://ubuntu-oregon.org -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On 02/04/12 15:27, Scott Kitterman wrote: On Monday, April 02, 2012 08:58:20 PM Dale Amon wrote: Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm not very good at remembering those at 3am. That's what ~/.ssh/config is for. So to give an idea, my ~/.ssh/config has more than 200 entries; some of them have unique ports, some of them unique proxies, some of them different userIds, some of them a mix of the previous. To boot, ssh has autocompletion for entries in its ./config. And... you can *name* the entries as you wish (or make sense for you). But I think the major issue for the OP is the change in paradigm. I suffered with it when I moved to Unity (and grumbled a lot). Now I find myself actually liking it. YMMV. Anyways, if you want something like Gnome, there is pure Gnome, always available. And KDE, etc. The beauty of this all is we have options. And we *can* opt. ..C.. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Hi Dale On 01/04/2012 07:52, Dale Amon wrote: So the question is, how can I install Precise and *NOT* have Unity put me out of action and cost me days of work getting rid of it and getting my working environment back to normal? This list is for developer discussion, for user support, please try the methods listed on http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community For trying out Precise, install VirtualBox or KVM and try it in a virtual machine. You can run Unity just fine in a VM and almost any other desktop environment is a quick install away via the software center. -Jonathan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Dale Amon a...@vnl.com wrote: With the release date for the new LTS coming rapidly, I am faced with a quandary. There are things in Precise which I need; I do not like to be behind the curve for updates and such; but I just *cannot* have my desktop mucked about with. I make my living off consulting, so this is a serious monetary issue, not just a simple matter of taste. I've built up a working environment that lets me react to customer needs quickly and has everything I need for my day to day operations close at hand. I cannot afford to lose that, nor can I take an extended time to figure out what to do in an entirely new environment. Just as an example, I have about 30 terminals on my desktop. Clicking on one of them puts me directly into a server somewhere. I can have a customer on the phone, click once and be dealing with their problem almost instantly. I have skype, gringotts,pigeon and other apps which I need instant access to on my top toolbar. So the question is, how can I install Precise and *NOT* have Unity put me out of action and cost me days of work getting rid of it and getting my working environment back to normal? Sorry, but I don't think you can. Between the HUD, the Dash, and the new Alt-Tab/Alt-Grave I've found Unity to eventually be *more* efficient than the old Gnome 2 stack, but it did take a few days of figuring things out and retraining before I was comfortable with it. My advice would be to treat the upgrade as an investment - it will require some time now that isn't immediately productive, but it will make you more productive in the long run. Just my two cents, Evan P.S. For better or for worse, Unity is the future of Ubuntu (for better, IMHO). If you're not willing to spend the time to adjust your workflow to it, switch to another desktop. I hear Cinnamon aims to be comparable to the old Gnome-2. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 08:36:11AM -0400, Evan Huus wrote: P.S. For better or for worse, Unity is the future of Ubuntu (for better, IMHO). If you're not willing to spend the time to adjust your workflow to it, switch to another desktop. I hear Cinnamon aims to be comparable to the old Gnome-2. The top of my Requirements document on this would be: * Inclusion of large numbers of launchers of xterms on the desktop where I can set up commands like: xterm -e ssh amon@some ip address which because of the crypto logins allows me a single double-click access to any of about 30 machines. * Ability to set file browser to default to xemacs for text files. * Single or double click access to xterm, xemacs, and a number of other important apps on my desktop. * Key folders and apps on the desk top, also available instantly. * Multiple timezone widget on top tool bar or elsewhere that is continuously available and to which I can with a single click check the time in NY,Chicago,Denver and LA where my customers are. * At least 4 desktops, reachable by single click. These are go/no go requirements, in priority order. Lack of the top one is an instant down select. Why not just have a menu entry like X windows has always had, let the user click on it and change their window manager at will? Put the customer in the drivers seat. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Just so it is here in case someone picks this up in google, the answer is: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/03/gnome-classic-in-ubuntu-12-04-its-like-nothing-ever-changed/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
