Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Benjamin Drung]

On Mi, 2012-04-11 at 20:44 -0700, Dane Mutters wrote:

> I'm aware that this is the "-discuss" list, and in point of fact, I
> subscribed (and occasionally participated on) the "-devel" list for
> years until a faction of the developers decided (with some good
> reason) that they didn't want non-developers on that list, and
> restricted all emails from those without special permission.  Even
> then, I occasionally made suggestions and (what I thought were)
> intelligent comments, only to be faced with a process of waiting for
> my every email to be moderated, then being summarily told that my
> input wasn't important to anyone there (in many cases).  So, while,
> yes, this isn't the list that most devs give a hoot about, and, in
> fact, seem to regard more as dev-null than dev-discuss, there simply
> isn't a better place to voice such concerns, and I'm pretty sure that
> it's by design.  (To be fair, some people had been obnoxious on the
> old -devel list, so some of this behavior is understandable, if not
> justified.)

I don't have this perception. I am one Ubuntu developer reading the
"-discuss" list without making it a second class list.

You seem to target the wrong audience. We Ubuntu developers create a
distribution from upstream project. Unity is one upstream project as
GNOME is one upstream project. You need to talk to the upstream
developers directly to have an influence.

To maximize the influence on project, the critics should be factually.
As developer, I am more open to a concrete technical bug report than to
get blamed for developing madness. A polite phrased issue is more likely
to be heard.

To answer your initial question: Install gnome-panel and use it like you
used GNOME 2 before.

Unity has many advantages over GNOME 2, but it breaks some use cases. I
filed bugs against Unity for those use cases [1] and [2]. Until these
bugs are sorted out, I will use gnome-panel on the one machine with the
described use case.

[1] https://launchpad.net/bugs/856892
[2] https://launchpad.net/bugs/856894

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Timo Jyrinki]

2012/4/11 Dane Mutters :
> There's somewhat more to it than that.  The major issue (among many other
> issues) is that the new GUIs don't do the things that used to be available
> on the old one (Gnome 2).  Example: I can't add a good system monitor to
> Gnome 3 because the old gnome-system-monitor applet (being an applet at all,
> apparently) is incompatible with Gnome 3.

Not sure about the system monitor applet case (I'm not using one), but
there is at least indicator-multiload now. For me, usually using
development versions and not sticking with LTS, losing the weather
information was unfortunate at the time. Currently I'm personally not
missing anything anymore (although weather info should be a default
feature), and the Unity in 12.04 feels more productive than GNOME 2
ever did. Mostly because of super + (shift + ) numbers, super + (shift
+) alt + arrows and the Dash search features, plus the screen space
(even though I've 1600x900 display). The search features for accessing
recent documents and apps is much nicer than browsing through the
menus, at least after getting used to it.

It did take learning time to become not annoyed with Unity, although
now if I'd start with 12.04 the situation would be more welcome,
because it's that much more stable and faster. I'm not that much
against change, so the biggest irritation for me was all the bugs
previously. Also the simple thing of showing quick help when keeping
Super pressed down helps a lot in learning how to use Unity more
powerfully. I can understand the pain people have gone through if
using Unity since 11.04 (I didn't start to use it back then). I was
annoyed with the lack of application menu for a long time, but finally
nowadays using the search feels natural and fast, plus navigating
menus manually on 10.04 LTS machines feels clunky. Super + A is also
available for an access to a list, but I'd prefer it'd be expanded
without an extra click.

Still, it's not for everyone of course, and is a big change as a
sudden switch kind of thing. I also hadn't even realized the missing
graphical way of doing desktop launchers, so I learned something from
this thread as well. Obviously I haven't used desktop launchers for
anything, since I prefer using terminal anyway for such use cases that
I could possibly do custom launchers. And I have a big .ssh/config,
yes :)

-Timo

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dane Mutters]

>
> Part of the problem you're having in this discussion is that Ubuntu
> developers
> don't develop Unity.  It's a separate project within Canonical that
> operates
> much like any upstream does.  The distribution developers have some
> influence
> and do, in some cases, contribute to it, but it's not primarily their work.
>
> If you're trying to reach the driving minds behind Unity, this isn't the
> right
> place.  There is a mailing list, called unity-design or some similar title
> that might be better.
>
> Scott K
>

That's very good to know; thanks, Scott.  It's also heartening to hear that
it's not the Ubuntu devs (for whom I generally have a lot of respect) who
are pushing this madness forward, but people who are working directly for
Canonical--rather than simply being directed by canonical.  I apologize to
any developers toward whom I've been unjustly been harsh.

My previous criticisms of certain denizens of this list stand, but at least
now it's clear that most of the Unity "culprits" are elsewhere.  Thanks for
the clarification.

--Dane
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Scott Kitterman]

On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 08:44:18 PM Dane Mutters wrote:
> For what it's worth, I came into this discussion hoping to outline specific
> problems in the GUI design process and come to useful conclusions about how
> to fix it.  It would seem that, while many of the people here are, indeed,
> worth talking to, there are enough who are certainly not, that such an
> effort is basically wasted.  I'm sorry that this list is insufficiently
> tolerant/intelligent/wise to value what would, in other circles, be
> worthwhile conversation.

Part of the problem you're having in this discussion is that Ubuntu developers 
don't develop Unity.  It's a separate project within Canonical that operates 
much like any upstream does.  The distribution developers have some influence 
and do, in some cases, contribute to it, but it's not primarily their work.

If you're trying to reach the driving minds behind Unity, this isn't the right 
place.  There is a mailing list, called unity-design or some similar title 
that might be better.

Scott K

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dane Mutters]

>
> What we had was a rant followed by another rant followed by... I do not
> know, I stopped in the middle of the second rant. ScootK was very right
> when referring to the delete option.
>
> ...


> But if I do not like something,
> and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear
> statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it
> is wrong.
>

C.,

Judging by your statements, above, it's quite clear that you haven't read
most of this thread, and thereby have no real idea as to what the tenor of
(most of) this discussion has been.  It's therefore counterproductive for
you to make disparaging claims about the conduct of others, whose conduct
you apparently haven't actually taken any notice of.  Please read the
previous posts before assuming you have anything worthwhile to say about
them.


Everyone else,

I'm aware that this is the "-discuss" list, and in point of fact, I
subscribed (and occasionally participated on) the "-devel" list for years
until a faction of the developers decided (with some good reason) that they
didn't want non-developers on that list, and restricted all emails from
those without special permission.  Even then, I occasionally made
suggestions and (what I thought were) intelligent comments, only to be
faced with a process of waiting for my every email to be moderated, then
being summarily told that my input wasn't important to anyone there (in
many cases).  So, while, yes, this isn't the list that most devs give a
hoot about, and, in fact, seem to regard more as dev-null than dev-discuss,
there simply isn't a better place to voice such concerns, and I'm pretty
sure that it's by design.  (To be fair, some people had been obnoxious on
the old -devel list, so some of this behavior is understandable, if not
justified.)

As for the title of the thread, and whether this discussion should,
instead, be with canonical: I asked both of those things, already (re-read
my emails if you don't believe me), and got either no response, or
(implicit) confirmation that this was as good a place as any.  If you had
something to say back then, why didn't you say it?  Scott's replies were
informative, and I thought I responded sensibly to them; did I
misunderstand?  (Those whose previous comments fit into the description of
behaviors in this message are encouraged to keep their mouths shut, for
once.)

I'm sorry that this email has a much more angry tone than usual (for me,
anyway), but asinine double-speak and baseless accusations (see the first
paragraph) really bother me, and I know it's not just a personal quirk that
they do; one would be hard-pressed to find anyone who isn't at least a
little bothered by such behavior.

For what it's worth, I came into this discussion hoping to outline specific
problems in the GUI design process and come to useful conclusions about how
to fix it.  It would seem that, while many of the people here are, indeed,
worth talking to, there are enough who are certainly not, that such an
effort is basically wasted.  I'm sorry that this list is insufficiently
tolerant/intelligent/wise to value what would, in other circles, be
worthwhile conversation.

Regretfully,

--Dane
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Neal McBurnett]

Dale, please note that this is the "ubuntu-devel-discuss" list.

You are not talking to Canonical.  You're not even talking to the main 
developer list "ubuntu-devel".
This is an "open-to-anyone" list and I don't even know how many developers pay 
attention to it.  They certainly pay less attention to a thread with a title 
like this one.

This is a place where people, mostly volunteers, typically try to get started 
in making technical contributions to Ubuntu, which is why people keep trying to 
steer the conversation back to concrete suggestions, bug reports, etc.  That's 
how we get stuff done here.

If you want to talk business, this is not the right place, nor is it the right 
place to get someone else to talk business on your behalf.
To talk business, I'd suggest either giving Canonical a call, or looking at the 
huge variety of support options (from Canonical and from many many others) at 
http://www.ubuntu.com/support

If you're not interested in a business relationship (which might well involve 
money), perhaps you could take it up with the Technical Board, or the Community 
Council.

Or really get involved, by coming to the Ubuntu Developer Summit, or digging in 
to the aspect of Ubuntu where you could have the best leverage.

But this is not the place to address the concerns you have, at least in the way 
you're trying to frame them.

Neal McBurnett http://neal.mcburnett.org/

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 09:04:47PM +0100, Dale Amon wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 09:33:54PM +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote:
> > You also assume that
> > - what you used before was "meet(ing) customer needs" better than
> > Unity, it might be true for you or your customer, it doesn't mean
> > your case is the most common one in the world
> 
> Just curious, what is the customer base
> you are working with? I do systems for
> investor conferences (for a large NY bank);
> various moderate sized accountancy firms (DC area)
> and a number of aerospace companies (New Space 
> market segment, ie private space).
> 
> I also often work side by side with techs from the big 
> broadcast networks and guys who have worked
> on Wall Street. (It's nice work while the contracts
> are running... I'd do nicely if those gigs were 
> more regular.) The folks I deal with have racks of 
> gear in colo's in Manhattan.
> 
> Also, I've been around the patch a bit and know a lot
> of folks and what their requirements are... hint: my 
> first program was in Fortran on a 360/67 at Carnegie
> Mellon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Scott Kitterman]

Dale Amon  wrote:

>On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 02:01:22PM -0500, C de-Avillez wrote:
>> A lot of people left KDE when KDE4 was put out. A lot returned,
>others
>> went elsewhere. A lot of people will leave Gnome3, or
>> . It happens,
>> people (in general) do not like change. But if I do not like
>something,
>> and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear
>> statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it 
>> is wrong.
>
>That is not really the nature of the discussion. Ubuntu
>is a product. Real people use it in business and often
>in mission critical applications. If Ubuntu wishes to
>gain market share, then it must meet customer needs and
>not cause undue havoc with the operations of companies
>all over the world. That is what has been quite clearly
>stated, not as a rant and in a measured and professional
>tone, by professionals who have advocated the use of your
>product. 
>
>You need to be nice to the people who do that. It is not
>my job to help you build your product. My job is to 
>develop my own products using your (or another if necessary)
>platform that is suitable to purpose.
>
>> I have not seen this here.
>
>You are looking for a primarily technical discussion.
>This has been primarily a business operations discussion.
>That is something I am sure Mark Shuttleworth should
>understand and appreciate.

There is a significant difference between Ubuntu, the FOSS Linux distribution, 
and Canonical, the corporation. If you want to have a business discussion, it 
should be with someone with an @canonical.com or some thirdy party business/ 
consultant.  In the context of a Linux distribution being more technically 
focused is quite appropriate and expected.

Unless you're writing a check to someone, you aren't a customer.

Scott K

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 09:33:54PM +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote:
> You also assume that
> - what you used before was "meet(ing) customer needs" better than
> Unity, it might be true for you or your customer, it doesn't mean
> your case is the most common one in the world

Just curious, what is the customer base
you are working with? I do systems for
investor conferences (for a large NY bank);
various moderate sized accountancy firms (DC area)
and a number of aerospace companies (New Space 
market segment, ie private space).

I also often work side by side with techs from the big 
broadcast networks and guys who have worked
on Wall Street. (It's nice work while the contracts
are running... I'd do nicely if those gigs were 
more regular.) The folks I deal with have racks of 
gear in colo's in Manhattan.

Also, I've been around the patch a bit and know a lot
of folks and what their requirements are... hint: my 
first program was in Fortran on a 360/67 at Carnegie
Mellon.





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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le 11/04/2012 21:21, Dale Amon a écrit :

If Ubuntu wishes to
gain market share, then it must meet customer needs and
not cause undue havoc with the operations of companies
all over the world.
Well, that's why Ubuntu has LTS versions and extended support to 5 years 
for this one, so people who need stability can plan migration on a 5 
years period, you still have to deal with changes but that's true for 
most OSes.


You also assume that
- what you used before was "meet(ing) customer needs" better than Unity, 
it might be true for you or your customer, it doesn't mean your case is 
the most common one in the world
- companies care much about the desktop "chrome"...often they don't, 
they care about the services and softwares they run, performances, stability
- that choise is taken away from you, it's not, Unity got added, 
gnome-shell got added, still gnome-panel (gnome classic) is still 
available are xubuntu, kubuntu, etc.


Nothing also stop you to run lucid for another year if you are happy 
with it, it's still supported, and maybe revisit options then...


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 02:01:22PM -0500, C de-Avillez wrote:
> A lot of people left KDE when KDE4 was put out. A lot returned, others
> went elsewhere. A lot of people will leave Gnome3, or
> . It happens,
> people (in general) do not like change. But if I do not like something,
> and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear
> statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it 
> is wrong.

That is not really the nature of the discussion. Ubuntu
is a product. Real people use it in business and often
in mission critical applications. If Ubuntu wishes to
gain market share, then it must meet customer needs and
not cause undue havoc with the operations of companies
all over the world. That is what has been quite clearly
stated, not as a rant and in a measured and professional
tone, by professionals who have advocated the use of your
product. 

You need to be nice to the people who do that. It is not
my job to help you build your product. My job is to 
develop my own products using your (or another if necessary)
platform that is suitable to purpose.

> I have not seen this here.

You are looking for a primarily technical discussion.
This has been primarily a business operations discussion.
That is something I am sure Mark Shuttleworth should
understand and appreciate.


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 12:39:51AM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote:
> "desktop-centric" version in the foreseeable future?  Has there been any
> discussion of it?  Finally, would a petition with, say, 100,000 signatures
> (or whatever large number seems appropriate), delivered to Mark
> Shuttleworth, be enough to get some say in this?

Well, you could tell Mark that I'm one of the
Directors of the National Space Society and
often consult with NewSpace companies... I was
considering Ubuntu for use in a NewSpace application
but I'm now getting very antsy about the idea.


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[C de-Avillez]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:54:55 -0700
Dane Mutters  wrote:


> If I might recommend one final thing...can the essence of this
> discussion be somehow posted in an easy-to-find place on Ubuntu's
> various web pages and forums?  It would be helpful to have an
> official notice that "this is how it is, and it's not going back to
> how it was."  It would save a lot of people (like me) a lot of
> trouble in trying to present ideas about what's unsatisfactory and
> needs changing, seeing as the direction of development apparently
> finds such input (concerning the GUI) unimportant at this time. As a
> policy, I find this quite unfortunate, but if that's "just how it
> is," a simple warning would be nice.


I think you are expanding and assuming results, decisions, and
consequences over what has been said on this thread.

1. I am pretty sure Unity development will look at, and hear, on any
well-explained, decent complaint. 
2. I am sorry, but "Gnome 3 sucks, and Unity sucks more" is *not* what
I am referring to above.
3. I do not remember anyone involved on Unity development stating that
s/he "finds such input (concerning the GUI) unimportant at this time".
4. I see no official notice of "this is how it is(...)"

What we had was a rant followed by another rant followed by... I do not
know, I stopped in the middle of the second rant. ScootK was very right
when referring to the delete option.

A lot of people left KDE when KDE4 was put out. A lot returned, others
went elsewhere. A lot of people will leave Gnome3, or
. It happens,
people (in general) do not like change. But if I do not like something,
and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear
statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it 
is wrong.

I have not seen this here.

Cheers,
..C..


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dane Mutters]

>
> That said, if you can find specific things you are having problems with
> and make
> specific suggestions about how to solve the problems that are generally
> their
> direction, you've got a chance of being heard.  "Go back to what it was"
> has
> no chance at 
> all.


Scott,

I appreciate your directness and honesty.  For me, I think I'll move away
from Ubuntu entirely until things get sorted out.  I hope it won't be
terribly long, though I note that it took several years to get the
already-existing Gnome 2 fully usable.  Maybe this will be different.

In truth, if they can make Unity as good as Gnome 2 was (or better), and
not terribly inconvenient or time-consuming to learn, I won't really care
that it's not what I used to use.  I'm just extremely frustrated with not
having functionality that I've previously relied upon.  (Dale, I sympathize
with you strongly on this, as do many others.)

If anyone can recommend a good, full-featured distribution that fills the
same basic niche as Ubuntu, for use in the meantime, I'd be happy to hear
your suggestions (as might others).  (I might go with an RPM distro, since
my Canon printer seems to hate DEB systems.)

If I might recommend one final thing...can the essence of this discussion
be somehow posted in an easy-to-find place on Ubuntu's various web pages
and forums?  It would be helpful to have an official notice that "this is
how it is, and it's not going back to how it was."  It would save a lot of
people (like me) a lot of trouble in trying to present ideas about what's
unsatisfactory and needs changing, seeing as the direction of development
apparently finds such input (concerning the GUI) unimportant at this time.
As a policy, I find this quite unfortunate, but if that's "just how it is,"
a simple warning would be nice.

Thanks.

--Dane
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Scott Kitterman]

On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 12:39:51 AM Dane Mutters wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre <
> 
> mathieu...@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Dane Mutters  wrote:
> > [...]
> > 
> > > So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we
> > 
> > have,
> > 
> > > haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the
> > 
> > GUI(s)
> > 
> > > of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current
> > > offerings?
> > 
> > Have you considered trying the other window manager that are available
> > for installation? Between Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu which each install
> > their own different window manager by default; and being able to
> > install GNOME Shell (gnome-shell) to replace Unity (or
> > gnome-session-fallback for a GNOME2-like look), there's a fair amount
> > of choice.
> > 
> > No matter which option you'll choose, there is bound to be some amount
> > of change in the look and feel, since even GNOME is moving away from
> > what you're used to seeing in 10.04 with the two panels. That will
> > mean some amount of relearning, with a varying transition period
> > depending on your choice.
> > 
> > As far as I can tell, from an LTS to LTS upgrade perspective it's all
> > a matter of choosing whether you want to spend increasing amounts of
> > time figuring out how to get the same look you were used to, or
> > spending a (relatively) finite amount of time relearning interface to
> > familiarize yourself with . That's true
> > for all other distros at this point in time, the difference is that
> > Ubuntu has chosen to go with Unity as the default window manager for
> > Ubuntu Desktop installs (as opposed to Kubuntu or others).
> 
> There's somewhat more to it than that.  The major issue (among many other
> issues) is that the new GUIs don't do the things that used to be available
> on the old one (Gnome 2).  Example: I can't add a good system monitor to
> Gnome 3 because the old gnome-system-monitor applet (being an applet at
> all, apparently) is incompatible with Gnome 3.  There are Gnome Shell
> implementations that are buggy and incomplete, of course, but I see no good
> reason to use a buggy and incomplete  if a fully-functional
> version has been available for years.
> 
> Of course, that's just a minor example, and won't be relevant for everyone;
> but the overall principle is important: what used to work no longer works.
> This goes beyond simply learning to click the new places; it's a matter of
> missing functionality and bugs.
> 
> 
> Scott, you said that Canonical is railroading Ubuntu to use Unity.  Is this
> 100% certain?  Also, is it 100% certain that Unity *must* continue in the
> direction it's currently moving in?  It seems to have been optimized for
> netbooks, and as such, lacks much of what desktop (and large laptop) users
> find essential and/or appropriate.  Do you know if there will be a
> "desktop-centric" version in the foreseeable future?  Has there been any
> discussion of it?  Finally, would a petition with, say, 100,000 signatures
> (or whatever large number seems appropriate), delivered to Mark
> Shuttleworth, be enough to get some say in this?

They are on a path.  The chances of them getting off the path in the near term 
are, IMO, nil.  Your criticisms aren't unique, so I don't think they will get 
anywhere.  Their view seems to be something like, "We understand it's different 
and uncomfortable to change, but in the long run, you'll love it - trust us."

I don't know more than anyone else about what their future plans are (probably 
less since I'm not a Unity user).  

That said, if you can find specific things you are having problems with and 
make 
specific suggestions about how to solve the problems that are generally their 
direction, you've got a chance of being heard.  "Go back to what it was" has 
no chance at all.

Scott K

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 12:11:47AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 08:46:23 PM Dane Mutters wrote:
> Ubuntu is on a train and that train is called Unity.  The tracks are being 
> laid within Canonical and it is very difficult to influence where they are 
> being 
> put down from the outside.  The Canonical design team has started to engage 
> the community to discuss some of the relevant issues (although I haven't been 
> following the details).  You should accept that you aren't going to make 
> major 
> changes in where Unity is headed.  It just isn't going to happen from the 
> outside.
> 
> You can either get on this Unity train or pick another one.  Those are really 
> the choices.  Personally, I run Kubuntu.  Xubuntu is also very popular.  I 
> believe that there is a community forming around the idea of trying to 
> similarly provide a Gnome 3 experience from within the Ubuntu project.  You 
> need to figure out which one you like best.  They all have their advantages 
> and 
> disadvantages.

Lets put this in context. The final say is the customer.
Ubuntu has got some problems right now, not just in the
GUI, and I know of some sysadmins who have, after much
strong language, gone back to straight Debian in the rack
as well.

I have been installing and recommending Ubuntu for the
rack and desktop for several years now. I'm not religious
about it. It's just a tool. If the tool becomes unfit
or less effective for the purpose, I'll move to something
else, as will many many others for whom this is just
a business and is their livelihood.

Even Microsoft has had problems with their attempts
to change the GUI, even though they have kept much
compatibility... people are still installing Windows
XP Pro and many large offices have refused to upgrade.
Why? Because the loss of productivity during a change
of procedures they don't need and the retraining costs
and down time for staff.

I would be happy enough if you would put a selection
panel with radio buttons itemizing the major choices for
GUI. Pre-tick the Unity. But put installers a mouse
click away from what they actually want.

This peeve is a larger one though. A change in GUI should
always be an optional exercise for an office. Anything
that affects a business should be a matter of choice by
the customer. 

Oh, and guys, get your act together on the virtual 
machine stuff... that was why one very senior sysadmin
pulled Ubuntu and swore he'd never install it again...
it was taking down a VM hosting machine every day or
so and giving the ISP no end of grief from customers
who were paying for high reliability service. He went
to Debian squeeze and there have been no crashes in
the last 6 months.


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le 11/04/2012 09:39, Dane Mutters a écrit :
It seems to have been optimized for netbooks, and as such, lacks much 
of what desktop (and large laptop) users find essential and/or 
appropriate. 

Hi,

That's simply not true, unity works great on a big screen (using a 24" 
screen here), it gives out most of the space for your work, has 
excellent keyboard navigation (now with the HUD you can as well access 
the menus without having to move the mouse at all) and the launcher and 
dash are friendly to mouse users as well.


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dane Mutters]

On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre <
mathieu...@ubuntu.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Dane Mutters  wrote:
> [...]
> > So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we
> have,
> > haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the
> GUI(s)
> > of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current offerings?
>
> Have you considered trying the other window manager that are available
> for installation? Between Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu which each install
> their own different window manager by default; and being able to
> install GNOME Shell (gnome-shell) to replace Unity (or
> gnome-session-fallback for a GNOME2-like look), there's a fair amount
> of choice.
>
> No matter which option you'll choose, there is bound to be some amount
> of change in the look and feel, since even GNOME is moving away from
> what you're used to seeing in 10.04 with the two panels. That will
> mean some amount of relearning, with a varying transition period
> depending on your choice.
>
> As far as I can tell, from an LTS to LTS upgrade perspective it's all
> a matter of choosing whether you want to spend increasing amounts of
> time figuring out how to get the same look you were used to, or
> spending a (relatively) finite amount of time relearning interface to
> familiarize yourself with . That's true
> for all other distros at this point in time, the difference is that
> Ubuntu has chosen to go with Unity as the default window manager for
> Ubuntu Desktop installs (as opposed to Kubuntu or others).
>
>
There's somewhat more to it than that.  The major issue (among many other
issues) is that the new GUIs don't do the things that used to be available
on the old one (Gnome 2).  Example: I can't add a good system monitor to
Gnome 3 because the old gnome-system-monitor applet (being an applet at
all, apparently) is incompatible with Gnome 3.  There are Gnome Shell
implementations that are buggy and incomplete, of course, but I see no good
reason to use a buggy and incomplete  if a fully-functional
version has been available for years.

Of course, that's just a minor example, and won't be relevant for everyone;
but the overall principle is important: what used to work no longer works.
This goes beyond simply learning to click the new places; it's a matter of
missing functionality and bugs.


Scott, you said that Canonical is railroading Ubuntu to use Unity.  Is this
100% certain?  Also, is it 100% certain that Unity *must* continue in the
direction it's currently moving in?  It seems to have been optimized for
netbooks, and as such, lacks much of what desktop (and large laptop) users
find essential and/or appropriate.  Do you know if there will be a
"desktop-centric" version in the foreseeable future?  Has there been any
discussion of it?  Finally, would a petition with, say, 100,000 signatures
(or whatever large number seems appropriate), delivered to Mark
Shuttleworth, be enough to get some say in this?


Thanks for your input, everybody.

--Dane
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre]

On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Dane Mutters  wrote:
[...]
> So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we have,
> haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the GUI(s)
> of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current offerings?

Have you considered trying the other window manager that are available
for installation? Between Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu which each install
their own different window manager by default; and being able to
install GNOME Shell (gnome-shell) to replace Unity (or
gnome-session-fallback for a GNOME2-like look), there's a fair amount
of choice.

No matter which option you'll choose, there is bound to be some amount
of change in the look and feel, since even GNOME is moving away from
what you're used to seeing in 10.04 with the two panels. That will
mean some amount of relearning, with a varying transition period
depending on your choice.

As far as I can tell, from an LTS to LTS upgrade perspective it's all
a matter of choosing whether you want to spend increasing amounts of
time figuring out how to get the same look you were used to, or
spending a (relatively) finite amount of time relearning interface to
familiarize yourself with . That's true
for all other distros at this point in time, the difference is that
Ubuntu has chosen to go with Unity as the default window manager for
Ubuntu Desktop installs (as opposed to Kubuntu or others).

Regards,

Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre 
Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu...@gmail.com
4096R/EE018C93 1967 8F7D 03A1 8F38 732E  FF82 C126 33E1 EE01 8C93

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Scott Kitterman]

On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 08:46:23 PM Dane Mutters wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Scott Kitterman 
wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:26:22 PM Robert Holtzman wrote:
> > > On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:26:50PM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote:
> > ...
> > 
> > > Oh,come on. Let's not start this again. What is it about the various
> > > Ubuntu lists that causes the Manners Police to fire up their computers
> > > to pop out how we unwashed masses should comport ourselves every time
> > > the discussion gets a little spirited?
> > > 
> > > I assume the people on this list are adults, capable of reading things
> > > like "pinhead", "stupid", "moron", etc without getting the vapors and
> > > reaching for the smelling salts.
> > 
> > Certainly.  The delete key works great for such cases.  If you want to
> > contribute to the Ubuntu community in a way that is going to be effective,
> > then
> > poorly written rants aren't the best way to go about it.
> > 
> > Scott K
> 
> So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we have,
> haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the
> GUI(s) of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current
> offerings?
> 
> I think we've outlined the problem fairly well (thanks to those who have
> posted thus far), though further explanation would, of course, be welcome,
> should something be missing.
> 
> Scott K, you've typically been a voice of reason on the Ubuntu mailing
> lists in the past; do you have any insights?  Anyone else?

Ubuntu is on a train and that train is called Unity.  The tracks are being 
laid within Canonical and it is very difficult to influence where they are 
being 
put down from the outside.  The Canonical design team has started to engage 
the community to discuss some of the relevant issues (although I haven't been 
following the details).  You should accept that you aren't going to make major 
changes in where Unity is headed.  It just isn't going to happen from the 
outside.

You can either get on this Unity train or pick another one.  Those are really 
the choices.  Personally, I run Kubuntu.  Xubuntu is also very popular.  I 
believe that there is a community forming around the idea of trying to 
similarly provide a Gnome 3 experience from within the Ubuntu project.  You 
need to figure out which one you like best.  They all have their advantages and 
disadvantages.

Scott K

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dane Mutters]

On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:26:22 PM Robert Holtzman wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:26:50PM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote:
> ...
> > Oh,come on. Let's not start this again. What is it about the various
> > Ubuntu lists that causes the Manners Police to fire up their computers
> > to pop out how we unwashed masses should comport ourselves every time
> > the discussion gets a little spirited?
> >
> > I assume the people on this list are adults, capable of reading things
> > like "pinhead", "stupid", "moron", etc without getting the vapors and
> > reaching for the smelling salts.
>
> Certainly.  The delete key works great for such cases.  If you want to
> contribute to the Ubuntu community in a way that is going to be effective,
> then
> poorly written rants aren't the best way to go about it.
>
> Scott K
>

So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we have,
haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the
GUI(s) of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current
offerings?

I think we've outlined the problem fairly well (thanks to those who have
posted thus far), though further explanation would, of course, be welcome,
should something be missing.

Scott K, you've typically been a voice of reason on the Ubuntu mailing
lists in the past; do you have any insights?  Anyone else?

I've seen this topic degenerate into protean grunts of derision several
times before, but since nobody's yet outlined a reasonable and functional
course of action, yet, I dare to say it's still worth talking about--should
we all manage to keep our heads.  I would very much like to have again an
Ubuntu that I'm ecstatic about sharing with my friends and family, and I
think that intelligently (and fearlessly) confronting the GUI problems we
now face is a key step in obtaining that.

I realize that since I'm not a developer, myself, I probably lack somewhat
in the "credibility-and-sway department," but I'm hoping that insomuch as I
(and others) present good reasoning and valid concerns, that can be
overlooked.

Thanks for your interest and comments.

--Dane
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Scott Kitterman]

On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:26:22 PM Robert Holtzman wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:26:50PM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote:
...
> Oh,come on. Let's not start this again. What is it about the various
> Ubuntu lists that causes the Manners Police to fire up their computers
> to pop out how we unwashed masses should comport ourselves every time
> the discussion gets a little spirited?
> 
> I assume the people on this list are adults, capable of reading things
> like "pinhead", "stupid", "moron", etc without getting the vapors and
> reaching for the smelling salts.

Certainly.  The delete key works great for such cases.  If you want to 
contribute to the Ubuntu community in a way that is going to be effective, then 
poorly written rants aren't the best way to go about it.

Scott K

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Robert Holtzman]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:26:50PM -0700, Dane Mutters wrote:
> >
> >
> > Oh it goes well and truely far beyond that. Some pinhead decided to move
> > /var/run to /run without leaving a symlink or informing and updating
> > packages.
> > I had an unfortunate 10.04 LTS system go unbootable until I got onto the
> > console to fix it so networking could even come up since on that machine it
> > was depending on dhcp and a handful of other things to check in via the FHS
> > accepted and everything but ubuntu  /var/run. And this was a normal system.
> > Whose stupid idea was *that*? The same moron who was pissing and moaning
> > about moving all binaries into /bin or some other idiocy?
> >
> > I am so very glad I never bought the Linux desktop coolaide. Though I
> > guess Windows 8 designed for mobile and tablets is getting pushed to the
> > desktop too so precise may as well break the long standing /var/run
> > practice of this is where pid files go without fixing any stock packages.
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> Michael and others,
> 
> I realize it can be very satisfying to deliver a well-placed rant, but I
> hope I'm not "out of line" to remind everyone that without moderating our
> language to be as unoffensive as possible, no web conversation can be very
> productive.  The issues you've brought up are, of course, quite valid; I
> only suggest that the conversation avoid inflammatory epithets ("whose
> stupid idea...", etc.), and that we try to get to the root of whatever
> problem exists with the help of those who generously donate their time to
> Ubuntu, rather than ranting at those same people.  I realize that my own
> language has been pretty blunt, but within the bounds of explaining an
> issue, I hope I haven't been too offensive.
> 
> Also, if this thread isn't the appropriate place to discuss problems with
> development trends, etc., then will somebody please inform me/us of where
> such a discussion would be more appropriate?  I've taken the liberty of
> posting my "essay" on my blog, at:
> 
> http://danemutters.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/on-the-state-of-linux-gui-development/
> 
> ...in case people find it more appropriate to deal with the issues there.
> I'll make a point of moderating inflammatory comments there (hopefully
> without stifling any worthwhile ideas in the process).  All are free to
> comment on the blog, so long as we're respectful.

Oh,come on. Let's not start this again. What is it about the various
Ubuntu lists that causes the Manners Police to fire up their computers
to pop out how we unwashed masses should comport ourselves every time
the discussion gets a little spirited? 

I assume the people on this list are adults, capable of reading things 
like "pinhead", "stupid", "moron", etc without getting the vapors and 
reaching for the smelling salts.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch, 
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[John Moser]

On 04/08/2012 11:14 PM, Dane Mutters wrote:


John,


So, while I'm, in fact, all /for /speaking bluntly, I also see the 
quandary that speaking too bluntly produces when being "wrong" (for 
the "owners" of a work) would mean that the months they spent on a 
particular project would all be for nothing, should they admit that 
they were actually wrong.


All things have a balance.  Direct personal attacks are less useful than 
attacks on a particular feature you don't like; attacks by proxy are 
also more useful than direct personal attacks ("I don't know what idiot 
came up with this..." that idiot is somewhere, but he's at least able to 
shuffle back into the crowd and hide...).  Directly grabbing the 
developer in question and giving them a severe public dressing down is 
just not constructive--let's ignore the issue and lob personal attacks 
instead now eh?  (Thorough dressings down are for the rare situation 
where the person in question is a severely destructive idiot--this 
doesn't happen much, aside from that one coworker we've all had that 
gets paid to creates problems for everyone else.)


Either way, getting *too* uncivil is a bad thing.  Strong language can 
be very useful in some forums; but in forums where it's strongly 
inappropriate you should pick your tone well enough to have the same 
effect.  Railing on something by proxy on a glancing blow may be 
overstepping the bounds of civility, or it might be a needed slap 
alongside the head for someone; continuing to ignore the feature itself 
and continuously use it purely as a proxy to insult someone is just 
malicious and useless.


We don't want to degenerate into a forum of continuous flame wars in any 
case; but the truth is the occasional burn serves to remind us that fire 
is hot and we should really pay attention to what we're doing.  While 
you don't want to burn your house down, you also really don't want to 
freeze to death.


That all said, let's keep it civil.  Or at least let's go for a farce.


Plus it's fun to read people speaking frankly, though if you spoke
like a Franc I guess you'd have to use a lot more accents and
apostrophes.


Well said.  ;-)


If only brevity was my strong point.

--Dane


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dane Mutters]

>
> On the contrary, I found Michael's rant refreshing.  Politically correct
> rants look like a lot of nitpicking over nothing.
>


> ...
>


>
> But of course a little "We shouldn't do this, it's a bad idea" just gets
> an enthusiastic push-back from strong-headed "visionaries" that think
> they're onto something.  When the criticism starts coming in force and with
> sharp language, a threat to ration and reason is made--in other words:
> humans fear losing arguments in the same way they fear being punched in the
> face, and strong and vicious protest is threatening in that it makes being
> wrong particularly high impact.  If the whole world is iffy but unenthused,
> they will swallow your crap and then complain--unenthusiastically--that
> it's not great.  If you are being flamed and shouted at, then when the
> whole world doesn't turn around and realize how excellent your new ideas
> are--perhaps because they're not--you take a MAJOR social hit and suddenly
> nobody likes you, and as a bonus they also get it in their heads that
> anything you touch is a born disaster and probably will never come near you
> again.
>
> In other words, maybe you'll listen when people actually say what they
> mean instead of sucking all the emotional meaning out and presenting simple
> facts--facts which you may dispute with other simple facts.  Facts are
> facts, whether they're true or false.  Information is more than just
> facts:  the emotional weight carries, and the presentation makes that.  Do
> you honestly think Unity would have ever happened if Shuttleworth got
> called a pinhead whenever someone commented on the design proposal and
> subsequent betas?  It would have been quickly abandoned as every single
> developer associated with the project ran for cover from the raining fire
> and brimstone.
>

John,

I can see that you make a good point; bad UI decisions would have been less
likely to happen if at first they were savagely railed against, thereby
causing the potential developers of those bad ideas to go elsewhere.

The problem, as I see it, is that once the decisions have already had time
and effort invested in them, it becomes a problem of, "is all that work I
did stupid/irrelevant?"  This, in addition to pressing the "I can't be
wrong!" button, also presses the "if I'm wrong, my work isn't valuable, so
I'm not valuable" button.  This is, as I see it, the other side of the
psychological "coin" that you aptly outlined above.  Therefore, when a part
of a person's sense of self worth is threatened by way of intense
criticism, the normal response is to "dig in" and fight vehemently to
protect the perceived value of one's work.  Thus, no matter how bad an idea
or system is, those who made it will be all the more stubborn if they feel
like they can't concede gracefully.  (Incidentally, this is similar to how
[useless] bureaucracies become self-preserving.)

So, while I'm, in fact, all *for *speaking bluntly, I also see the quandary
that speaking too bluntly produces when being "wrong" (for the "owners" of
a work) would mean that the months they spent on a particular project would
all be for nothing, should they admit that they were actually wrong.

As a side note, mentioning these psychological/social dynamics may well
push the conversation further in that direction, but it would seem that it
needs to be said (and under other circumstances, I wouldn't hesitate to
aggravate everyone by saying them).  Nobody likes to admit that their
thought processes are irrational and/or emotional, since it means that on
some level, they're being "stupid" by letting other things control any
intelligence they might otherwise possess.

This dynamic (all of the above, including what you've written) seems to
have run rampant in the development of GUIs for the last year or so...but I
hadn't exactly intended to expose this directly until you began doing so.
(Now the beans are "spilled...")

Plus it's fun to read people speaking frankly, though if you spoke like a
> Franc I guess you'd have to use a lot more accents and apostrophes.
>

Well said.  ;-)

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Colin Watson]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 11:00:31PM -0600, Michael Loftis wrote:
>Oh it goes well and truely far beyond that. Some pinhead decided to move
>/var/run to /run without leaving a symlink or informing and updating
>packages.

/var/run is a symlink to /run in 12.04.  Perhaps you ran into a
corner-case bug, but in general there's a symlink there for
backward-compatibility.

>I had an unfortunate 10.04 LTS system go unbootable

The switch to /run was in 11.10.

>via the FHS accepted and everything but ubuntu� /var/run.

  http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/RunDirectory#FAQ

-- 
Colin Watson   [cjwat...@ubuntu.com]

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[John Moser]

On 04/08/2012 01:26 AM, Dane Mutters wrote:


Michael and others,

I realize it can be very satisfying to deliver a well-placed rant, but 
I hope I'm not "out of line" to remind everyone that without 
moderating our language to be as unoffensive as possible, no web 
conversation can be very productive.  The issues you've brought up 
are, of course, quite valid; I only suggest that the conversation 
avoid inflammatory epithets ("whose stupid idea...", etc.), and that 
we try to get to the root of whatever problem exists with the help of 
those who generously donate their time to Ubuntu, rather than ranting 
at those same people.  I realize that my own language has been pretty 
blunt, but within the bounds of explaining an issue, I hope I haven't 
been too offensive.




On the contrary, I found Michael's rant refreshing.  Politically correct 
rants look like a lot of nitpicking over nothing.


"Well, I don't like the idea of moving everything from /usr/bin into 
/bin.  It's just not clean."


"Well, someone broke /run.  Moving /var/run to /run makes no sense."

Ok, so you're getting some push-back, there are rough edges, and people 
are wary of new things.  That's cool, move forward.



"What *@*@* stupid moron came up with this @#*% !?  I swear if it isn't 
one stupid thing it's another, the whole world's gone vacant latched on 
some idiotic trend..."



WHOAAA get behind something!  Perhaps this is a good 
indicator that you should stop and consider what "Progress" means and 
maybe your amazing forward-moving ideas are just useless paradigm shifts 
that are ill-targeted.


Unity and Gnome 3 have gotten a lot of attention like that from people I 
know that are into UI design--I mean UI design as a researched, studied 
field, not "I have a cool idea and I know a thing or two about UI 
design."  I mean people who have read the ergonomics studies, results on 
focus groups, and consider the value of traditional design and the value 
of well-routed behavior in new interfaces like touch screens and very 
tiny screens.  These people are a little different crowd than the normal 
love/hate on Unity and/or Gnome3 (I personally like Gnome3, but this is 
irrelevant).


What it all tends to boil down to is simple:  while a lot of people 
love/hate Unity and/or Gnome3, those in-the-know are able to quantify 
that desktops are not tablets and tablets are not cell phones.  
Attempting to wedge desktops with dual 24-36 inch wide screen monitors 
and cursor-based pointing into the same paradigm as a 3 inch portrait 
touch screen doesn't work any better than attempting to use Gnome2 on 
your cell phone.  The problems are different, but the UI is just 
annoying.  I like Gnome3, but its failure to separate application 
[quick] launcher (menu/icon) from application window indicator (task 
bar) annoys me.  This abstraction is great for cell phones, where an 
application will always have a single window, and where access implies 
executing it iff it's not running; but the interface concerns of the 
desktop are different, and here it becomes jarring.  This specific 
concern is immaterial; I only mean to illustrate that big-screen 
desktops are not micro-touch-screen cell phones or 7 inch tablets.




But of course a little "We shouldn't do this, it's a bad idea" just gets 
an enthusiastic push-back from strong-headed "visionaries" that think 
they're onto something.  When the criticism starts coming in force and 
with sharp language, a threat to ration and reason is made--in other 
words:  humans fear losing arguments in the same way they fear being 
punched in the face, and strong and vicious protest is threatening in 
that it makes being wrong particularly high impact.  If the whole world 
is iffy but unenthused, they will swallow your crap and then 
complain--unenthusiastically--that it's not great.  If you are being 
flamed and shouted at, then when the whole world doesn't turn around and 
realize how excellent your new ideas are--perhaps because they're 
not--you take a MAJOR social hit and suddenly nobody likes you, and as a 
bonus they also get it in their heads that anything you touch is a born 
disaster and probably will never come near you again.


In other words, maybe you'll listen when people actually say what they 
mean instead of sucking all the emotional meaning out and presenting 
simple facts--facts which you may dispute with other simple facts.  
Facts are facts, whether they're true or false.  Information is more 
than just facts:  the emotional weight carries, and the presentation 
makes that.  Do you honestly think Unity would have ever happened if 
Shuttleworth got called a pinhead whenever someone commented on the 
design proposal and subsequent betas?  It would have been quickly 
abandoned as every single developer associated with the project ran for 
cover from the raining fire and brimstone.


Plus it's fun to read people speaking frankly, though if you spoke like 
a Franc I guess you'd have

Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dane Mutters]

>
>
> Oh it goes well and truely far beyond that. Some pinhead decided to move
> /var/run to /run without leaving a symlink or informing and updating
> packages.
> I had an unfortunate 10.04 LTS system go unbootable until I got onto the
> console to fix it so networking could even come up since on that machine it
> was depending on dhcp and a handful of other things to check in via the FHS
> accepted and everything but ubuntu  /var/run. And this was a normal system.
> Whose stupid idea was *that*? The same moron who was pissing and moaning
> about moving all binaries into /bin or some other idiocy?
>
> I am so very glad I never bought the Linux desktop coolaide. Though I
> guess Windows 8 designed for mobile and tablets is getting pushed to the
> desktop too so precise may as well break the long standing /var/run
> practice of this is where pid files go without fixing any stock packages.
>
> 
>
>
Michael and others,

I realize it can be very satisfying to deliver a well-placed rant, but I
hope I'm not "out of line" to remind everyone that without moderating our
language to be as unoffensive as possible, no web conversation can be very
productive.  The issues you've brought up are, of course, quite valid; I
only suggest that the conversation avoid inflammatory epithets ("whose
stupid idea...", etc.), and that we try to get to the root of whatever
problem exists with the help of those who generously donate their time to
Ubuntu, rather than ranting at those same people.  I realize that my own
language has been pretty blunt, but within the bounds of explaining an
issue, I hope I haven't been too offensive.

Also, if this thread isn't the appropriate place to discuss problems with
development trends, etc., then will somebody please inform me/us of where
such a discussion would be more appropriate?  I've taken the liberty of
posting my "essay" on my blog, at:

http://danemutters.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/on-the-state-of-linux-gui-development/

...in case people find it more appropriate to deal with the issues there.
I'll make a point of moderating inflammatory comments there (hopefully
without stifling any worthwhile ideas in the process).  All are free to
comment on the blog, so long as we're respectful.

Thanks.

--Dane
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Michael Loftis]

Sent from my Motorola Xoom
On Apr 1, 2012 6:23 AM, "Dale Amon"  wrote:
>
> With the release date for the new LTS coming
> rapidly, I am faced with a quandary. There are
> things in Precise which I need; I do not like
> to be behind the curve for updates and such;
> but I just *cannot* have my desktop mucked about
> with.
>

Oh it goes well and truely far beyond that. Some pinhead decided to move
/var/run to /run without leaving a symlink or informing and updating
packages.
I had an unfortunate 10.04 LTS system go unbootable until I got onto the
console to fix it so networking could even come up since on that machine it
was depending on dhcp and a handful of other things to check in via the FHS
accepted and everything but ubuntu  /var/run. And this was a normal system.
Whose stupid idea was *that*? The same moron who was pissing and moaning
about moving all binaries into /bin or some other idiocy?

I am so very glad I never bought the Linux desktop coolaide. Though I guess
Windows 8 designed for mobile and tablets is getting pushed to the desktop
too so precise may as well break the long standing /var/run practice of
this is where pid files go without fixing any stock packages.


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 09:22:35PM +0200, Lanoxx wrote:
> To add one example to yours, the new print dialog that is available
> by default on oneiric has a lot less functionality then the tool
> from maverick. Unless one knows that the old print configuration
> tool is still available as "system-config-printer" (if i remember
> correctly) there is not even a way to configure the default page
> size.

That may be an absolute show stopper for me. It still works
in Oneiric on my laptop (I set it back to classic), but if it 
went away, I would be in deep, deep excrement. I regularly 
travel back and forth between the UK (A4 paper) and the 
US (Letter) and trade documents back and forth and print 
them on a daily basis. I'm constantly fiddling the printouts
in the print and print preview panels. It never even occurred
to me that something so incredibly basic could be allowed to
go out the door broken.

I'm going to have to wait a good long while and get my
hands on a system that can be used to test
whether Precise can be made suitable to purpose
for my business needs or not.

But perhaps this has been fixed in Precise. If not, there
are going to be a lot of very angry business people out 
there...




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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Lanoxx]

I fully agree with you. I love Ubuntu but this new trend of reinventing 
things that are good but not prefect and then coming up with something 
that has a lot less functionality (in the beginning at least) is not a 
very good thing.


However in defense of the Ubuntu developers it needs to be said, that 
this whole situation with Gnome has been caused by the gnome developers 
in the first place.


To add one example to yours, the new print dialog that is available by 
default on oneiric has a lot less functionality then the tool from 
maverick. Unless one knows that the old print configuration tool is 
still available as "system-config-printer" (if i remember correctly) 
there is not even a way to configure the default page size.


Cheers
Lanoxx

On 07/04/2012 13:52, Dane Mutters wrote:
I'm not keen on getting involved in a debate, but since this issue 
affects my ability to be productive on Ubuntu, as well, I find it 
appropriate to inform the developers of it.


I'm aware that there have been numerous complaint threads on this 
mailing list and others about some people finding Unity (and Gnome 3) 
basically unusable for their purposes.  I'm in the same boat, and 
while I realize that "+1" on this issue is basically pointless, the 
continued postings on the subject raise an important issue that's only 
being obliquely touched upon, for the most part:


Ubuntu has decreased in usability for many people due to the all-out 
"war on the old GUI."  At this point is where someone says, "use Gnome 
classic!"  This, however, proved rather problematic for me, and 
continues to be so for many others; also, it's both condescending and 
counterproductive to insist that users with genuine problems with the 
direction of development simply "deal with the new GUI" or switch back 
to a somewhat broken Gnome 2 that lacks significant pieces that made 
Gnome usable before these changes started.  I'll mention a couple of 
examples, just to cursorily illustrate that I'm not simply "blowing 
smoke," but ultimately it's something you have to use and have 
problems with to fully understand.


1) No system menu; everything is shoved into Applications > Other.  
Having 30+ items here is utterly impractical, and I found that not 
everything even made it into a menu after System was removed.  I often 
had to search the web for the program's actual name so that I could 
then open a terminal and type the command to let me do some basic 
administrative or customization task.  This is greatly compounded when 
much of the menu is full of things that were designed for Unity or 
Gnome 3, and therefore do nothing useful for Gnome classic--or just as 
often break things.


2) Even if you can find everything in Gnome classic that you used to 
use in Gnome 2, half the stuff on a recent Ubuntu installation is 
stuff that breaks Gnome 2, or is only usable with Unity (and therefore 
Compiz), or Gnome 3.  Furthermore, if you reset as much as you can to 
"default" for Gnome classic (delete config files in ~, etc.), you'll 
end up with programs that require working Unity/Gnome 3 components, 
but since you're no longer configured for those desktop environments, 
they'll be unpredictable and crash frequently.  This is especially bad 
because Compiz breaks Unity (and its components) when not properly 
configured.  I experienced crashing window manager, freezing, and even 
segfaults about every hour while using a stock install of Unity with 
just a few minor Compiz customizations.  These crashes also carried 
over into Gnome classic, once I stopped using Unity.  (Yes, I disabled 
Unity support and enabled Gnome support in Compiz.)


Ultimately, I've been forced to switch to KDE on Linux Mint--neither 
of which I'm particularly fond of.  The thing is, though, they work 
*for me* 10 times better than Ubuntu has since it dropped Gnome 2, so 
it's the best of several undesirable options.  I'd love to go back to 
stock Ubuntu, but as long as the GUI is busy being re-invented (not 
just in Ubuntu, notably), I'm finding myself stuck dealing with 
Windows a lot more, and Linux--which I generally like much better--a 
lot less.  I used to boot into Windows only to play games, but now I 
find that staying in Linux means spending lots of time arguing with 
unnecessary GUI problems.  (I'm personally quite fed-up with it all, 
but I'm trying to be civil and rational so as to be productive, rather 
than a problem, in and of myself.)


...But all the above is only marginally relevant; the real problem, as 
I see it, is the development trend being espoused.  I understand that 
it's great to invent new, exciting software, and I don't begrudge 
anybody of it.  In fact, the mere fact that you bother to write for a 
free OS is admirable, and I commend you for it (for whatever that's 
worth).  Unfortunately, it's been a consistent-but-growing trend in 
Linux development, generally, and Ubuntu, specifically, to make a 
piece of software *pretty* good, then whimsically decide

Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

Well said.

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dane Mutters]

I'm not keen on getting involved in a debate, but since this issue affects
my ability to be productive on Ubuntu, as well, I find it appropriate to
inform the developers of it.

I'm aware that there have been numerous complaint threads on this mailing
list and others about some people finding Unity (and Gnome 3) basically
unusable for their purposes.  I'm in the same boat, and while I realize
that "+1" on this issue is basically pointless, the continued postings on
the subject raise an important issue that's only being obliquely touched
upon, for the most part:

Ubuntu has decreased in usability for many people due to the all-out "war
on the old GUI."  At this point is where someone says, "use Gnome
classic!"  This, however, proved rather problematic for me, and continues
to be so for many others; also, it's both condescending and
counterproductive to insist that users with genuine problems with the
direction of development simply "deal with the new GUI" or switch back to a
somewhat broken Gnome 2 that lacks significant pieces that made Gnome
usable before these changes started.  I'll mention a couple of examples,
just to cursorily illustrate that I'm not simply "blowing smoke," but
ultimately it's something you have to use and have problems with to fully
understand.

1) No system menu; everything is shoved into Applications > Other.  Having
30+ items here is utterly impractical, and I found that not everything even
made it into a menu after System was removed.  I often had to search the
web for the program's actual name so that I could then open a terminal and
type the command to let me do some basic administrative or customization
task.  This is greatly compounded when much of the menu is full of things
that were designed for Unity or Gnome 3, and therefore do nothing useful
for Gnome classic--or just as often break things.

2) Even if you can find everything in Gnome classic that you used to use in
Gnome 2, half the stuff on a recent Ubuntu installation is stuff that
breaks Gnome 2, or is only usable with Unity (and therefore Compiz), or
Gnome 3.  Furthermore, if you reset as much as you can to "default" for
Gnome classic (delete config files in ~, etc.), you'll end up with programs
that require working Unity/Gnome 3 components, but since you're no longer
configured for those desktop environments, they'll be unpredictable and
crash frequently.  This is especially bad because Compiz breaks Unity (and
its components) when not properly configured.  I experienced crashing
window manager, freezing, and even segfaults about every hour while using a
stock install of Unity with just a few minor Compiz customizations.  These
crashes also carried over into Gnome classic, once I stopped using Unity.
(Yes, I disabled Unity support and enabled Gnome support in Compiz.)

Ultimately, I've been forced to switch to KDE on Linux Mint--neither of
which I'm particularly fond of.  The thing is, though, they work *for me*
10 times better than Ubuntu has since it dropped Gnome 2, so it's the best
of several undesirable options.  I'd love to go back to stock Ubuntu, but
as long as the GUI is busy being re-invented (not just in Ubuntu, notably),
I'm finding myself stuck dealing with Windows a lot more, and Linux--which
I generally like much better--a lot less.  I used to boot into Windows only
to play games, but now I find that staying in Linux means spending lots of
time arguing with unnecessary GUI problems.  (I'm personally quite fed-up
with it all, but I'm trying to be civil and rational so as to be
productive, rather than a problem, in and of myself.)

...But all the above is only marginally relevant; the real problem, as I
see it, is the development trend being espoused.  I understand that it's
great to invent new, exciting software, and I don't begrudge anybody of
it.  In fact, the mere fact that you bother to write for a free OS is
admirable, and I commend you for it (for whatever that's worth).
Unfortunately, it's been a consistent-but-growing trend in Linux
development, generally, and Ubuntu, specifically, to make a piece of
software *pretty* good, then whimsically decide that instead of making it
*really* good, it's more fun/better/whatever to invent a completely new
thing, based on better principles, technology, and so forth.
Unfortunately, these good ideas rarely get fully realized before yet
another set of good ideas emerges and causes working systems to be
abandoned in favor of alpha-stage projects.  This is a problem endemic to
Linux as a whole, but it's been especially disappointing to see it infest
the otherwise amazing Ubuntu.  For an example, I note that Red Hat 7.2 had
a rather good built-in, cross-environment menu editor.  Then, the
underlying software changed, and it was about 5 years until Gnome had a
menu editor again (which Ubuntu's developers helped to create, as I
understand it).  Similarly, KDE3 had a good menu editor, but now that KDE4
is out, it's all but impossible to simply organize items by alp

Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Martin Pool]

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Vernon Cole  wrote:
>   At your suggestion, I went looking around for some "appropriate" list.  I
> found a blog which seems to be used by the designers to talk with each
> other, but no list as such, or much of a way for an outsider to present
> ideas -- especially critical ideas.

I guess you googled 'unity design list', but the results didn't give
you a clear indication what to do.

When I do that, I find  which
points to  (which has a somewhat
disconcerting description) which is a public list you can join, which
has a ton of discussion from unity developers and others about all
topics of unity design .
That would be a good place to talk about it, rather than here, which
has lots of non-Unity-related people.

m

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Lanoxx]

On 03/04/12 10:26, Vernon Cole wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Rodney Dawes  > wrote:
> 
> Ditën e Mon, 02/04/2012 më 13.57 -0600, Vernon Cole ka shkruar:
> > So there it is.  All we want is all the new stuff -- along with
> > everything we had before.  Is that too much to ask?
> 
> There is nothing preventing you from installing and using the classic
> gnome interface.
> 
> 
> I tried that once, and got only old generic gnome stuff. all of the neat
> Ubuntu stuff was missing.  As I said, I am greedy and want both.

More and more applets are being ported to GTK+3 and will be available in
the classic mode of gnome 3. For example with the 12.04 release you can
install the indicator-applet package again, which gives you back all the
nice indicators that ubuntu used to have in gnome 2 in older versions.
Together with the gnome-tweak-tool there is really not much difference
to how gnome 2 used to be.

> 
> 
> This list isn't about Unity design or implementation details discussion.
> If you want to discuss those problems, file bugs or bring it up on the
> appropriate Unity list (probably unity-design).
> 
>  
> Dear Rodney:
> 
> Perhaps you have actually pinpointed the problem. If Unity developers
> don't realize that they are also Ubuntu developers, then no wonder
> things don't work quite like they ought. Maybe somebody in this group
> needs to make sure that somebody from that group is assigned to follow
> this one.
> 
>   At your suggestion, I went looking around for some "appropriate"
> list.  I found a blog which seems to be used by the designers to talk
> with each other, but no list as such, or much of a way for an outsider
> to present ideas -- especially critical ideas.Do you have a URL to
> refer me to, or were you just trying to get rid of a lurker?  I am
> _trying_ to contribute to my favorite distro, and I have learned over
> the years that a timely question from a concerned onlooker can sometimes
> eliminate real problems.  When you are driving down the road and notice
> that people keep pointing at your car, you probably should stop and find
> out what they are pointing at -- it's probably the gas cap you forgot to
> replace. 
> 
> A quick glance at the Unity blogs makes me fear that they are so busy
> envisioning the wonderful trees they are planning to grow, that they
> have forgotten to tend the forest today.  I have been guilty of the same
> thing -- so busy making a new program design elegant. that I forgot that
> I also had to make it _work_.
> 
> Please forward this to the "appropriate" persons.  I'm afraid that
> pointing and shouting warnings is really the most I can contribute.
> Learning how to navigate your bureaucracy and whom to lobby is a bit
> beyond me.
> --
> Vernon
> 
> 
> 

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Vernon Cole]

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Rodney Dawes wrote:

> Ditën e Mon, 02/04/2012 më 13.57 -0600, Vernon Cole ka shkruar:
> > So there it is.  All we want is all the new stuff -- along with
> > everything we had before.  Is that too much to ask?
>
> There is nothing preventing you from installing and using the classic
> gnome interface.
>

I tried that once, and got only old generic gnome stuff. all of the neat
Ubuntu stuff was missing.  As I said, I am greedy and want both.

>
> This list isn't about Unity design or implementation details discussion.
> If you want to discuss those problems, file bugs or bring it up on the
> appropriate Unity list (probably unity-design).
>

Dear Rodney:

Perhaps you have actually pinpointed the problem. If Unity developers don't
realize that they are also Ubuntu developers, then no wonder things don't
work quite like they ought. Maybe somebody in this group needs to make sure
that somebody from that group is assigned to follow this one.

  At your suggestion, I went looking around for some "appropriate" list.  I
found a blog which seems to be used by the designers to talk with each
other, but no list as such, or much of a way for an outsider to present
ideas -- especially critical ideas.Do you have a URL to refer me to, or
were you just trying to get rid of a lurker?  I am _trying_ to contribute
to my favorite distro, and I have learned over the years that a timely
question from a concerned onlooker can sometimes eliminate real problems.
When you are driving down the road and notice that people keep pointing at
your car, you probably should stop and find out what they are pointing at
-- it's probably the gas cap you forgot to replace.

A quick glance at the Unity blogs makes me fear that they are so busy
envisioning the wonderful trees they are planning to grow, that they have
forgotten to tend the forest today.  I have been guilty of the same thing
-- so busy making a new program design elegant. that I forgot that I also
had to make it _work_.

Please forward this to the "appropriate" persons.  I'm afraid that pointing
and shouting warnings is really the most I can contribute. Learning how to
navigate your bureaucracy and whom to lobby is a bit beyond me.
--
Vernon
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[C de-Avillez]

On 02/04/12 15:27, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Monday, April 02, 2012 08:58:20 PM Dale Amon wrote:
>> Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible
>> by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm
>> not very good at remembering those at 3am.
> That's what ~/.ssh/config is for.
>

So to give an idea, my ~/.ssh/config has more than 200 entries; some
of them have unique ports, some of them unique proxies, some of them
different userIds, some of them a mix of the previous.

To boot, ssh has autocompletion for entries in its ./config. And...
you can *name* the entries as you wish (or make sense for you).

But I think the major issue for the OP is the change in paradigm.  I
suffered with it when I moved to Unity (and grumbled a lot).  Now I
find myself actually liking it. YMMV.

Anyways, if you want something like Gnome, there is pure Gnome,
always available. And KDE,  etc. The beauty of this all is we have
options. And we *can* opt.

..C..



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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Benjamin Kerensa]

On 04/02/2012 12:58 PM, Dale Amon wrote:

Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible
by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm
not very good at remembering those at 3am.



As Jonathan initially replied this list is for Developer Discussion and 
there are more appropriate venues for support:

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Evan Huus]

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Vernon Cole  wrote:
-snip-

> For example, on my 11.04 box I have launchers for Thunar and Wireshark
> under gksu -- so that I can conveniently move or modify system files, and
> monitor my ethernet interfaces. The nicest thing about using Ubuntu for a
> router is the ability to use Wireshark to see what application programs on
> the downstream network are doing. For that, you need a gui screen with root
> access.  Easy if you have custom launchers -- very clumsy, otherwise.
>
-snip-

I'm not up to commenting on the rest of your email, but as a brief tangent:
running Wireshark as root is a bad idea and NOT recommended. Even ignoring
the obvious security problems inherent in running the full application as
root, Wireshark's design suffers several bugs when run as root user.

It is quite possible to capture packets without full root permissions: you
just have to follow the instructions in the file [1] (included in the
wireshark-common package). I realize this isn't exactly discoverable - I've
had a few talks with upstream already, and the process should be much more
obvious in future versions.

Evan

[1] file:///usr/share/doc/wireshark-common/README.Debian
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Phillip Susi]

On 4/2/2012 3:58 PM, Dale Amon wrote:

Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible
by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm
not very good at remembering those at 3am.


You can set you your ssh config to have those so you don't have to 
remember them, and then typing "ssh somehost" is faster and easier 
especially at 3am than clicking the correct icon.



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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Jordon Bedwell]

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Scott Kitterman  wrote:
> On Monday, April 02, 2012 08:58:20 PM Dale Amon wrote:
>> Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible
>> by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm
>> not very good at remembering those at 3am.
>
> That's what ~/.ssh/config is for.

Or you can also use /etc/hosts and set IP to a hostname locally.
There is very little security a 'unique' port provides because without
a firewall that has whitelists over blacklist or are doing
port-knocking they'll eventually discover the port, sooner then later
IMO.  That is if it's a real adversary, I guess for a dumb adversary
it would hold them off but I would much rather assume the adversary is
smart rather than compromise by assuming they are dumb.

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Scott Kitterman]

On Monday, April 02, 2012 08:58:20 PM Dale Amon wrote:
> Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible
> by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm
> not very good at remembering those at 3am.

That's what ~/.ssh/config is for.

Scott K

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

Oh and did I mention that some are only accessible
by ip or have unique ssh ports for security? I'm
not very good at remembering those at 3am.

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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Vernon Cole]

Dale makes the case that I have wanted to present, but he says it better
than I.  Unity is still missing key components that some of us have really
come to depend on. Until those gaps are filled in, we cannot be fully
productive using Unity, and therefore don't think it's a good idea to
switch to it.

  I have taken the Unity challenge, and the computer on which I am typing
this -- my daily use laptop -- is running Unity.  After several months of
experience, I feel that I am qualified to give a better evaluation than my
initial response, which, indeed was: "Unity sucks."  No, it doesn't. It's
actually a pretty nice desktop which has a few serious warts.  It works
really well for a user with a limited set of applications -- the number
which will fit on the pop-out bar (whatever it is being called this week)
on the left side of the screen. Your average secretary or software engineer
needs no more than that, and within those limitations, Unity is pretty,
quick, and easy to use.

  But Dale is right, we need to talk about the warts.

Wart 1 -- no menu.
   Removing the pull-down menu from the top bar did save a lot of space,
and makes the screen look cleaner. It also eliminates a neat, hierarchical
organization which lets me locate software that I use only occasionally.
For example,  I use Windows applications regularly, but rarely need to
alter my Wine environment. When I do want to make a change it's easy (on my
old boxes) -- just go down to the Wine submenu, and pick one of the four or
five items there, I don't remember what they are called. But without an
hierarchical organization, how do I find them?  Scroll through screens full
of large icons sorted in alphabetical order searching for something which
might look familiar???!!!  Insanity!   Same for office applications,
multimedia applications, infrequently used accessories...
  I also use Xubuntu 11.10 on a daily basis.  It has a nice little menu
system accessed from a little icon on the upper left edge of the screen --
even smaller then the Blue Ball which appears on the lower left corner of
my Windows 7 box -- which also calls up an hierarchical menu.
  Solution: copy the Xubuntu menu system.  It should also be called up when
I hit the "Windows" key on my keyboard.

Wart 2 -- no way to create a launcher.
  I think that it's really quite comical that when I click on the  icon on my desktop that the Windows version of Bazaar Explorer
starts up.  The shortcut (i.e.: launcher) was placed there by the Wine
program loader when I installed bzr.exe.   [Yes, I did that on purpose --
the Windows version does a better job of managing bazaar branches on NTFS
volumes. On this dual-boot system, most of my storage is NTFS.]
  I am used to having about 1/4 of the space on my desktop cluttered with
launchers for things which I my not use daily, but when I want them, I want
them NOW, or want them to have root access.  For example, on my 11.04 box I
have launchers for Thunar and Wireshark under gksu -- so that I can
conveniently move or modify system files, and monitor my ethernet
interfaces. The nicest thing about using Ubuntu for a router is the ability
to use Wireshark to see what application programs on the downstream network
are doing. For that, you need a gui screen with root access.  Easy if you
have custom launchers -- very clumsy, otherwise.
  Solution A:  (as on Xubuntu) left click on an empty desktop, select
"Create Launcher".
  Solution B: left click on an existing program icon, select "Create
Launcher".

Wart 3 -- the active window is visually detached from its control menu.
  It took me over a month to discover that most of the things I was
_really_ frustrated that Unity would not let me do, were actually easy.
The control pull-down menu items that I needed were right there all along
-- except that they had moved to the area formerly used for the system
control menu at the upper left corner of the screen. Even after these many
months I still have to remind myself to look 'way up there" to find them.
Also, it is hard to tell where the active window's controls end and the
system's controls begin.
  Solution A:  (perhaps) make the application's control menu's portion of
the top bar the same colour as the frame on the active application window.
The simultaneous colour change would create a visual and mental connection
between the two screen areas.
  Solution B: Activate the pull-down menu when I hit the "menu" key on my
keyboard.

Wart 4 -- No one-click desktop switching.
  The present method: 1) Move the cursor to the left edge of the screen 2)
wait a couple of seconds 3) move the cursor to the desktop switcher 4)
click on it 5) move the cursor to the desired desktop 6) click twice -- is
NOT one click.  Imagine that I have my bank statement on a web browser on
one desktop, and my financial application on the other.  To do a
reconciliation I must bounce back-and-forth between the two many times.
Will the six-step process work for me?
  Solution A: have a good one

Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 03:17:46PM -0400, Phillip Susi wrote:
> On 4/1/2012 7:52 AM, Dale Amon wrote:
> >Just as an example, I have about 30 terminals
> >on my desktop. Clicking on one of them puts
> >me directly into a server somewhere. I can
> >have a customer on the phone, click once and
> >be dealing with their problem almost instantly.
> 
> And you think switching to a blank desktop, moving your hand to the
> mouse, scanning 30 icons for the one you want, and clicking on it,
> is faster than just typing "ssh someserver" into a terminal?

Yes. I could do it in my sleep, in the semi dark. 

And I have.


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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Phillip Susi]

On 4/1/2012 7:52 AM, Dale Amon wrote:

Just as an example, I have about 30 terminals
on my desktop. Clicking on one of them puts
me directly into a server somewhere. I can
have a customer on the phone, click once and
be dealing with their problem almost instantly.


And you think switching to a blank desktop, moving your hand to the 
mouse, scanning 30 icons for the one you want, and clicking on it, is 
faster than just typing "ssh someserver" into a terminal?




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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

Just so it is here in case someone picks this up in
google, the answer is:

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/03/gnome-classic-in-ubuntu-12-04-its-like-nothing-ever-changed/



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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Dale Amon]

On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 08:36:11AM -0400, Evan Huus wrote:
> P.S. For better or for worse, Unity is the future of Ubuntu (for better,
> IMHO). If you're not willing to spend the time to adjust your workflow to
> it, switch to another desktop. I hear Cinnamon aims to be comparable to the
> old Gnome-2.

The top of my Requirements document on this would be:

* Inclusion of large numbers of launchers of
  xterms on the desktop where I can set up
  commands like: xterm -e ssh amon@
  which because of the crypto logins allows me
  a single double-click access to any of about
  30 machines.

* Ability to set file browser to default to xemacs
  for text files.

* Single or double click access to xterm, xemacs, 
  and a number of other important apps on my desktop.

* Key folders and apps on the desk top, also available
  instantly.

* Multiple timezone widget on top tool bar or
  elsewhere that is continuously available and to
  which I can with a single click check the time
  in NY,Chicago,Denver and LA where my customers
  are.

* At least 4 desktops, reachable by single click.

These are go/no go requirements, in priority order. Lack of
the top one is an instant down select.

Why not just have a menu entry like X windows has always
had, let the user click on it and change their window
manager at will? Put the customer in the drivers seat.










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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Evan Huus]

On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Dale Amon  wrote:

> With the release date for the new LTS coming
> rapidly, I am faced with a quandary. There are
> things in Precise which I need; I do not like
> to be behind the curve for updates and such;
> but I just *cannot* have my desktop mucked about
> with.
>
> I make my living off consulting, so this is
> a serious monetary issue, not just a simple
> matter of taste.
>
> I've built up a working environment that lets
> me react to customer needs quickly and has
> everything I need for my day to day operations
> close at hand. I cannot afford to lose that,
> nor can I take an extended time to figure out
> what to do in an entirely new environment.
>
> Just as an example, I have about 30 terminals
> on my desktop. Clicking on one of them puts
> me directly into a server somewhere. I can
> have a customer on the phone, click once and
> be dealing with their problem almost instantly.
> I have skype, gringotts,pigeon and other apps
> which I need instant access to on my top toolbar.
>
> So the question is, how can I install Precise
> and *NOT* have Unity put me out of action and
> cost me days of work getting rid of it and
> getting my working environment back to normal?
>

Sorry, but I don't think you can.

Between the HUD, the Dash, and the new Alt-Tab/Alt-Grave I've found Unity
to eventually be *more* efficient than the old Gnome 2 stack, but it did
take a few days of figuring things out and retraining before I was
comfortable with it.

My advice would be to treat the upgrade as an investment - it will require
some time now that isn't immediately productive, but it will make you more
productive in the long run.

Just my two cents,
Evan

P.S. For better or for worse, Unity is the future of Ubuntu (for better,
IMHO). If you're not willing to spend the time to adjust your workflow to
it, switch to another desktop. I hear Cinnamon aims to be comparable to the
old Gnome-2.
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Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Hi Dale

On 01/04/2012 07:52, Dale Amon wrote:

So the question is, how can I install Precise
and *NOT* have Unity put me out of action and
cost me days of work getting rid of it and
getting my working environment back to normal?


This list is for developer discussion, for user support, please try the 
methods listed on http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community


For trying out Precise, install VirtualBox or KVM and try it in a 
virtual machine. You can run Unity just fine in a VM and almost any 
other desktop environment is a quick install away via the software center.


-Jonathan

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