Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 You clearly missed the lesson on whitespace, and actually using the enter key. Please go back and learn it, because your posts are very painful to read otherwise - to the point where people just ignore them. And i suspect you'd do well to read this: http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/13/how-to-not-be-an-asshole-a-guide-for-men/ I can't really see the point in making any other comments, not only due to the lack of readability of the mail, other than to reiterate the suggestion of reading the above article. Hobbsee Jeremy Anderson wrote: Melissa had directed me to this study also. Thank you both for sending me to the site. I have finally read the documents on this and I have to say that I have more understanding of what you are talking about but the study has a lot of flaws. First off out of the industry there are very, very few people that would cooperate in a study like this. Many because they are just too darn busy. So, IMHO, I don't think think the numbers could ever be right. Second, because I have been in this industry for as long as I have I have seen many many many women excel and love the industry. Have they had some difficulties with a minority of asses that may be educated in technology? Surely but educated in the technology doesn't mean educated in morality. All of the great minded women that I have dealt with have said that they give very little thought to it because these are close minded people and know matter how hard you fight the system and them they will more than likely not ever change. There are too many good minded people in the industry to make the minority be a problem to them. What point am I making. No matter how many studies or how well you know what you are doing there is always going to be someone that doesn't get it. Back to my original e-mails These close minded people have no power over someone that knows who they are. Male or female. Are there going to be more women move toward technology? Maybe, maybe not. Do I want there to be? Anyone that is qualified to do the job at hand has my thumbs up. If they are not quite qualified but have the intention to be, they get a thumbs up. The ones that saturate this market with half heartedness, that I think is plaguing the industry, should be targeted and relieved of there positions. Most of the people that women are dealing with in the issue we are discussing come from this group of people. Why? Because they know they don't know what they should and feel better by trying to bring down their peers. I have more to say on this but I really need to work. I will read the documents from the study again in case I missed something. Just remember before you flame me. I am for women growing in this industry... Jeremy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG1CMb7/o1b30rzoURAsQzAJ9XXrAyj/mcTUgKxoYTKwFjo4RmcgCdEQYT jJlpWJPc8j9hW4vFQ6acXSQ= =7mMJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
On Tue, 2007-08-28 at 10:14 +0530, Vid Ayer wrote: On 8/24/07, Jeremy Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would someone please direct me to this finding of 2%? Not fighting here I would just love to see it. It may be something that helps me look at From http://www.ubuntu-women.org/, /quote An EC funded study (2006) summarized in the Flosspols report, indicates that about 1.5% of FLOSS community members were female, compared with 28% in proprietary software. The Ubuntu Census Survey (June 2006) also reflects a similar female ratio with 2.4% women actively volunteering in the Ubuntu community. /unquote Who are we going to blame that it is 2%? Do we need to blame someone ? and will it help solve anything ? IMO, just recognising and finding a way out if necessary is a positive approach. YMMV. I would personally buy you one. I think that is a great idea too. Thanks :-) I am a director of network engineering for a VoIP and ISP company and I would hire a woman IT person before a man It person if I had two people in front of me because in my experience women do their work great and they don't let much ego get in their way. I'll amen that !! -- Vid http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/VidAyer Melissa had directed me to this study also. Thank you both for sending me to the site. I have finally read the documents on this and I have to say that I have more understanding of what you are talking about but the study has a lot of flaws. First off out of the industry there are very, very few people that would cooperate in a study like this. Many because they are just too darn busy. So, IMHO, I don't think think the numbers could ever be right. Second, because I have been in this industry for as long as I have I have seen many many many women excel and love the industry. Have they had some difficulties with a minority of asses that may be educated in technology? Surely but educated in the technology doesn't mean educated in morality. All of the great minded women that I have dealt with have said that they give very little thought to it because these are close minded people and know matter how hard you fight the system and them they will more than likely not ever change. There are too many good minded people in the industry to make the minority be a problem to them. What point am I making. No matter how many studies or how well you know what you are doing there is always going to be someone that doesn't get it. Back to my original e-mails These close minded people have no power over someone that knows who they are. Male or female. Are there going to be more women move toward technology? Maybe, maybe not. Do I want there to be? Anyone that is qualified to do the job at hand has my thumbs up. If they are not quite qualified but have the intention to be, they get a thumbs up. The ones that saturate this market with half heartedness, that I think is plaguing the industry, should be targeted and relieved of there positions. Most of the people that women are dealing with in the issue we are discussing come from this group of people. Why? Because they know they don't know what they should and feel better by trying to bring down their peers. I have more to say on this but I really need to work. I will read the documents from the study again in case I missed something. Just remember before you flame me. I am for women growing in this industry... Jeremy -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
On Tue, 2007-08-28 at 23:28 +1000, Sarah Hobbs wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 You clearly missed the lesson on whitespace, and actually using the enter key. Please go back and learn it, because your posts are very painful to read otherwise - to the point where people just ignore them. And i suspect you'd do well to read this: http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/13/how-to-not-be-an-asshole-a-guide-for-men/ I can't really see the point in making any other comments, not only due to the lack of readability of the mail, other than to reiterate the suggestion of reading the above article. Hobbsee Jeremy Anderson wrote: Melissa had directed me to this study also. Thank you both for sending me to the site. I have finally read the documents on this and I have to say that I have more understanding of what you are talking about but the study has a lot of flaws. First off out of the industry there are very, very few people that would cooperate in a study like this. Many because they are just too darn busy. So, IMHO, I don't think think the numbers could ever be right. Second, because I have been in this industry for as long as I have I have seen many many many women excel and love the industry. Have they had some difficulties with a minority of asses that may be educated in technology? Surely but educated in the technology doesn't mean educated in morality. All of the great minded women that I have dealt with have said that they give very little thought to it because these are close minded people and know matter how hard you fight the system and them they will more than likely not ever change. There are too many good minded people in the industry to make the minority be a problem to them. What point am I making. No matter how many studies or how well you know what you are doing there is always going to be someone that doesn't get it. Back to my original e-mails These close minded people have no power over someone that knows who they are. Male or female. Are there going to be more women move toward technology? Maybe, maybe not. Do I want there to be? Anyone that is qualified to do the job at hand has my thumbs up. If they are not quite qualified but have the intention to be, they get a thumbs up. The ones that saturate this market with half heartedness, that I think is plaguing the industry, should be targeted and relieved of there positions. Most of the people that women are dealing with in the issue we are discussing come from this group of people. Why? Because they know they don't know what they should and feel better by trying to bring down their peers. I have more to say on this but I really need to work. I will read the documents from the study again in case I missed something. Just remember before you flame me. I am for women growing in this industry... Jeremy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG1CMb7/o1b30rzoURAsQzAJ9XXrAyj/mcTUgKxoYTKwFjo4RmcgCdEQYT jJlpWJPc8j9hW4vFQ6acXSQ= =7mMJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- Thank you for sending me to that site. This gave me some good insight. Just so you know most of my e-mails go through proof reading by female individuals before I send. So, they are probably scared of me and don't want to tell me that I am not correct. So, I will STFU because the best way to live life in this day and age is to squelch what you are saying if the subject gets too rough. I would like to find a solution to the problem and that is why I was being outspoken on the subject. I find though that the only ones to be able to solve it must be women, because the men should STFU. Thanks for listening... I will officially sign off on this subject and turn it over to my wife and female friends. Jeremy -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
On 8/24/07, Jeremy Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would someone please direct me to this finding of 2%? Not fighting here I would just love to see it. It may be something that helps me look at From http://www.ubuntu-women.org/, /quote An EC funded study (2006) summarized in the Flosspols report, indicates that about 1.5% of FLOSS community members were female, compared with 28% in proprietary software. The Ubuntu Census Survey (June 2006) also reflects a similar female ratio with 2.4% women actively volunteering in the Ubuntu community. /unquote Who are we going to blame that it is 2%? Do we need to blame someone ? and will it help solve anything ? IMO, just recognising and finding a way out if necessary is a positive approach. YMMV. I would personally buy you one. I think that is a great idea too. Thanks :-) I am a director of network engineering for a VoIP and ISP company and I would hire a woman IT person before a man It person if I had two people in front of me because in my experience women do their work great and they don't let much ego get in their way. I'll amen that !! -- Vid http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/VidAyer -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Hi All, I just saw this longish thread and was just going to read it and delete until I read this so please take my .02 paise with a pinch of salt !! On 8/20/07, Jeremy Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Holy crap. What kind of world do we live in when a freaking t-shirt has to be analyzed for political correctness. Its not about being PC, but about a single individual volunteer/human being (here many women and men) finding a typical characterisation offensive and choosing to voice themselves. Surely women can speak up for themselves cant they ! Did anyone see the boobs on the picture of this t-shirt… ? I would think that would mean that this t-shirt would be for ladies. Its about singling a particular gender and drawing attention to them and also the wording. .. for ladies tends to imply (even if unintentional) that women dont use Linux. That is a problem as we are still a minority (around 2% in FOSS). I think everyone in the Ubuntu Community is awesome no matter what their gender, race, religion, etc… I agree with you 101% and the community is what drew me to Ubuntu 3 years ago. I dont even work in the IT industry and yet volunteer simply coz I like the community. Talking of Linux in my country (India), hardly any women volunteer in the Linux community from India. We are a handful volunteers (almost negligible) while the Indian IT industry has above 40% women working (read, paid workers). Its not related to this issue but does not help making it an inclusive effort either. A t-shirt is not to hurt feelings. It is to brag that you are part of this community. I would wear Ubuntu for blonde haired, blue eyed, male, that likes to cook and ski on his free time if it would make a difference. The neat thing about freedom ... but I would still not wear any t-shirt with ...for ladies splashed across. I would prefer Ubuntu-Women.org on it instead. -- Vid http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/VidAyer -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 14:30 +0530, Vid Ayer wrote: Hi All, I just saw this longish thread and was just going to read it and delete until I read this so please take my .02 paise with a pinch of salt !! On 8/20/07, Jeremy Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Holy crap. What kind of world do we live in when a freaking t-shirt has to be analyzed for political correctness. Its not about being PC, but about a single individual volunteer/human being (here many women and men) finding a typical characterisation offensive and choosing to voice themselves. Surely women can speak up for themselves cant they ! I love that any of us can speak up. I actually really like this argument because it is making me think. I still haven't been convinced that anything was wrong with the T, but I am still thinking about it. If it said for women would it have made a difference? Did anyone see the boobs on the picture of this t-shirt… ? I would think that would mean that this t-shirt would be for ladies. Its about singling a particular gender and drawing attention to them and also the wording. .. for ladies tends to imply (even if unintentional) that women dont use Linux. That is a problem as we are still a minority (around 2% in FOSS). Would someone please direct me to this finding of 2%? Not fighting here I would just love to see it. It may be something that helps me look at this differently but I am not sure it can. Who are we going to blame that it is 2%? I am doing my part my daughter is two and can make it through many of the levels of supertux... Do we blame teachers? See the thing is IMHO that more women would be like you if you don't complain about this t-shirt and let these IMers in high school who are in a large part women/girls see the shirts out there and ask what it means? I have converted at least 10 Ladies in my family alone. 4 of my wife's friends (women) and they would never go back. I have sent them all this link and they think it is crazy that there is even an issue. Two women helped come up with it that I saw in an e-mail... I think everyone in the Ubuntu Community is awesome no matter what their gender, race, religion, etc… I agree with you 101% and the community is what drew me to Ubuntu 3 years ago. I dont even work in the IT industry and yet volunteer simply coz I like the community. Talking of Linux in my country (India), hardly any women volunteer in the Linux community from India. We are a handful volunteers (almost negligible) while the Indian IT industry has above 40% women working (read, paid workers). Its not related to this issue but does not help making it an inclusive effort either. A t-shirt is not to hurt feelings. It is to brag that you are part of this community. I would wear Ubuntu for blonde haired, blue eyed, male, that likes to cook and ski on his free time if it would make a difference. The neat thing about freedom ... but I would still not wear any t-shirt with ...for ladies splashed across. I would prefer Ubuntu-Women.org on it instead. I would personally buy you one. I think that is a great idea too. I believe that we should have the main great saying linux for human beings and many different sayings under it. Linux for Human Beings Linux for dumb people... Just kidding on the second line but it still shouldn't hurt anyones feelings because I call myself big dummy all the time. I am a director of network engineering for a VoIP and ISP company and I would hire a woman IT person before a man It person if I had two people in front of me because in my experience women do their work great and they don't let much ego get in their way. thanks for listening again... Jeremy -- Vid http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/VidAyer -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Jeremy Anderson wrote: On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 14:30 +0530, Vid Ayer wrote: Its about singling a particular gender and drawing attention to them and also the wording. .. for ladies tends to imply (even if unintentional) that women dont use Linux. That is a problem as we are still a minority (around 2% in FOSS). Would someone please direct me to this finding of 2%? Not fighting here I would just love to see it. It may be something that helps me look at this differently but I am not sure it can. Who are we going to blame that it is 2%? I am doing my part my daughter is two and can make it through many of the levels of supertux... Do we blame teachers? See the thing is IMHO that more women would be like you if you don't complain about this t-shirt and let these IMers in high school who are in a large part women/girls see the shirts out there and ask what it means? I have converted at least 10 Ladies in my family alone. 4 of my wife's friends (women) and they would never go back. I have sent them all this link and they think it is crazy that there is even an issue. Two women helped come up with it that I saw in an e-mail... I think everyone in the Ubuntu Community is awesome no matter what their gender, race, religion, etc… I agree with you 101% and the community is what drew me to Ubuntu 3 years ago. I dont even work in the IT industry and yet volunteer simply coz I like the community. Talking of Linux in my country (India), hardly any women volunteer in the Linux community from India. We are a handful volunteers (almost negligible) while the Indian IT industry has above 40% women working (read, paid workers). Its not related to this issue but does not help making it an inclusive effort either. Jeremy, Actually, Vid exaggerated the figure. It is rather, only 1.5% female participation. The figure of 1.5% comes from the flosspols report, an EU funded study into Open Source. You can find the report and the recommendations at http://flosspols.org/ -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 12:06 +1000, Melissa Draper wrote: Jeremy Anderson wrote: On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 14:30 +0530, Vid Ayer wrote: Its about singling a particular gender and drawing attention to them and also the wording. .. for ladies tends to imply (even if unintentional) that women dont use Linux. That is a problem as we are still a minority (around 2% in FOSS). Would someone please direct me to this finding of 2%? Not fighting here I would just love to see it. It may be something that helps me look at this differently but I am not sure it can. Who are we going to blame that it is 2%? I am doing my part my daughter is two and can make it through many of the levels of supertux... Do we blame teachers? See the thing is IMHO that more women would be like you if you don't complain about this t-shirt and let these IMers in high school who are in a large part women/girls see the shirts out there and ask what it means? I have converted at least 10 Ladies in my family alone. 4 of my wife's friends (women) and they would never go back. I have sent them all this link and they think it is crazy that there is even an issue. Two women helped come up with it that I saw in an e-mail... I think everyone in the Ubuntu Community is awesome no matter what their gender, race, religion, etc… I agree with you 101% and the community is what drew me to Ubuntu 3 years ago. I dont even work in the IT industry and yet volunteer simply coz I like the community. Talking of Linux in my country (India), hardly any women volunteer in the Linux community from India. We are a handful volunteers (almost negligible) while the Indian IT industry has above 40% women working (read, paid workers). Its not related to this issue but does not help making it an inclusive effort either. Jeremy, Actually, Vid exaggerated the figure. It is rather, only 1.5% female participation. The figure of 1.5% comes from the flosspols report, an EU funded study into Open Source. You can find the report and the recommendations at http://flosspols.org/ -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 site isn't up. I will look again later -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 12:06 +1000, Melissa Draper wrote: Jeremy Anderson wrote: On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 14:30 +0530, Vid Ayer wrote: Its about singling a particular gender and drawing attention to them and also the wording. .. for ladies tends to imply (even if unintentional) that women dont use Linux. That is a problem as we are still a minority (around 2% in FOSS). Would someone please direct me to this finding of 2%? Not fighting here I would just love to see it. It may be something that helps me look at this differently but I am not sure it can. Who are we going to blame that it is 2%? I am doing my part my daughter is two and can make it through many of the levels of supertux... Do we blame teachers? See the thing is IMHO that more women would be like you if you don't complain about this t-shirt and let these IMers in high school who are in a large part women/girls see the shirts out there and ask what it means? I have converted at least 10 Ladies in my family alone. 4 of my wife's friends (women) and they would never go back. I have sent them all this link and they think it is crazy that there is even an issue. Two women helped come up with it that I saw in an e-mail... I think everyone in the Ubuntu Community is awesome no matter what their gender, race, religion, etc… I agree with you 101% and the community is what drew me to Ubuntu 3 years ago. I dont even work in the IT industry and yet volunteer simply coz I like the community. Talking of Linux in my country (India), hardly any women volunteer in the Linux community from India. We are a handful volunteers (almost negligible) while the Indian IT industry has above 40% women working (read, paid workers). Its not related to this issue but does not help making it an inclusive effort either. Jeremy, Actually, Vid exaggerated the figure. It is rather, only 1.5% female participation. The figure of 1.5% comes from the flosspols report, an EU funded study into Open Source. You can find the report and the recommendations at http://flosspols.org/ -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 Thanks I will take a look -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
On Mon, 2007-08-20 at 06:30 -0600, Aaron Toponce wrote: Hmmm... While I am by no means a supporter of gender separation or sexism, I see no harm in that t-shirt. It's obvious to me that the t-shirt is trying to sell Linux, and computing in general, to women. Not call women some weird subset with these odd sticky out bits. Of course, people are entitled to their interpretation, but I think it's fairly clear that there is no harm intended. But that's not the issue. That some people don't find it offencive is irrelevant. Some people do, and they should be able to make the choice to not be offended. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Hmmm... While I am by no means a supporter of gender separation or sexism, I see no harm in that t-shirt. It's obvious to me that the t-shirt is trying to sell Linux, and computing in general, to women. Not call women some weird subset with these odd sticky out bits. Of course, people are entitled to their interpretation, but I think it's fairly clear that there is no harm intended. When I served as a missionary for my church, we called each other missionaries and sisters. It was a long standing joke, that this implied sisters aren't missionaries, yet even the ladies understood it as a joke, and nothing more. I think the shirt is harmless, but that's just my $.02. Thanks, +--+ |Aaron Toponce _ Join the ASCII Ribbon Campaign | |OALUG President( ) http://www.asciiribbon.org | |http://www.aarontoponce.org X Against HTML e-mail| |http://www.oalug.com / \ Against proprietary attachments| +--Best viewed with a monospace font---+ Sarah Hobbs wrote: Hey all, No idea who's behind this marketing decision, but... http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/08/20/linux-for-ladies/ As discussed in #debian-women earlier...does that mean that ladies are no longer human beings now? [19:15] seanius i'll defer to the ladies on whether it is or not, but i would read that line as because normal linux is too hard for ladies [19:18] liw hmm... that'd imply that ubuntu's linux for human beings implies normal linux is too hard for humans? [19:19] Sharrow That and the men's shirt says linux for human beings implying that ladies are some weird subset with these odd sticky out bits. [19:24] Baby yup, saw it, it really sucks snip [19:26] Baby well, we're not human beings anymore. I guess :) [19:26] Baby according to Ubuntu at least :P This is important, as it seems to be (unintentionally, i'm sure) offending half of the world's population, and so therefore half of the possible candidates who may end up using Ubuntu. It's food for thought, at least - please CC the relevant people beyond this mailing list. Hobbsee signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey all, No idea who's behind this marketing decision, but... http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/08/20/linux-for-ladies/ As discussed in #debian-women earlier...does that mean that ladies are no longer human beings now? [19:15] seanius i'll defer to the ladies on whether it is or not, but i would read that line as because normal linux is too hard for ladies [19:18] liw hmm... that'd imply that ubuntu's linux for human beings implies normal linux is too hard for humans? [19:19] Sharrow That and the men's shirt says linux for human beings implying that ladies are some weird subset with these odd sticky out bits. [19:24] Baby yup, saw it, it really sucks snip [19:26] Baby well, we're not human beings anymore. I guess :) [19:26] Baby according to Ubuntu at least :P This is important, as it seems to be (unintentionally, i'm sure) offending half of the world's population, and so therefore half of the possible candidates who may end up using Ubuntu. It's food for thought, at least - please CC the relevant people beyond this mailing list. Hobbsee Stuff like this drives me round the twist to be honest Why on Earth is there this subset of people who choose to see disrespect, problems and offense where there is obviouslly non meant! It's almost like people are looking for something to gripe about! 'Linux for Ladies' Take that term. How is it offensive? Do a google search for the phrase for the ladies - Observe 1,950,000 results. Are all of these offensive? Come on now Chris -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Melissa Draper wrote: Do a google search for the phrase for the ladies - Observe 1,950,000 results. Are all of these offensive? Do a google search for porn and tell me how many results you get. Not all the results are actually porn, so does this make porn ok as well? I understand the basis for his argument. I don't understand the basis for yours. Are you suggesting that the term Linux for ladies is porn? +--+ |Aaron Toponce _ Join the ASCII Ribbon Campaign | |OALUG President( ) http://www.asciiribbon.org | |http://www.aarontoponce.org X Against HTML e-mail| |http://www.oalug.com / \ Against proprietary attachments| +--Best viewed with a monospace font---+ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Hi Aaron, On Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 07:33:42AM -0600, Aaron Toponce wrote: Melissa Draper wrote: Do a google search for the phrase for the ladies - Observe 1,950,000 results. Are all of these offensive? Do a google search for porn and tell me how many results you get. Not all the results are actually porn, so does this make porn ok as well? I understand the basis for his argument. I don't understand the basis for yours. Are you suggesting that the term Linux for ladies is porn? I read it that Melissa is arguing that just because it can be found on google, does not make it okay.. Cheers, Al. -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Hi Sarah, On Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 10:20:29PM +1000, Sarah Hobbs wrote: No idea who's behind this marketing decision, but... This is important, as it seems to be (unintentionally, i'm sure) offending half of the world's population, and so therefore half of the possible candidates who may end up using Ubuntu. It's food for thought, at least - please CC the relevant people beyond this mailing list. I completely agree. Sarah (well, Jeff too) has brought up a valid point. As one of the people on the planet who happens to be a white, middle classs straight male, I'm pretty sure that I'm one of those people who is pretty oblivious of the issues that various minorities face on a daily basis. I for one am glad that people like Sarah and Melissa bring these things to our attention, and spark discussion because I'm pretty sure that this goes on pretty frequently in the online world, with little credence given to those who might be offended. I note that on many blog posts and mailing lists when these things come up there are plenty of white, middle class men who claim that this isn't an issue or it's being blown up out of proportion and in some cases this may be true. But to be fair aren't we white, middle class, straight men exactly the WRONG people to make that judgement? I'm all for inclusiveness and openness. Less exclusion, hysteria, opression and judgement and more of.. well, the opposite really. 2p Cheers, Al. -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
When I don't get harassed repeatedly due to Ubuntu, and can use my real name on irc, and in launchpad, etc, and be known for who I am, and not for being female, then i'll agree with you. As it is, I tend to only raise the stuff that I think is worth raising, precisely because of reactions like yours. So you think, that a slogan reading 'Linux for Ladies' on the back of a T-Shirt is offensive. I'm sorry for you, but I'm not sure that your particular view reflects that of everyone. You, have the choice not to buy or wear that T-Shirt as you see fit. I however, am an advocate of the right of a person to express his/her opinion. Any women who wish to purchase that T-Shirt should be allowed to (after all, these T-Shirts are for women aren't' they). Why I ask, should your opinion on the matter prevent those women from doing so? I am truly sorry that you've bad experiences in IRC, and I would be the first to defend and support you in your fight to deal with people who treat you badly. Please don't let your bad experiences effect other women who want to get involved and support Ubuntu. Cheers Chris -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Chris' argument implies that the term for the ladies is a fairly popular term because it shows up on Google. Not whether or not it's ok. Whether or not the term is morally acceptable is the argument at hand. Pornography is extremely popular, yet most would argue that it is not morally acceptable. Art is also very popular, yet it is morally accepted. Whether or not Google shows x-number of hits regarding the topic only shows it's popularity, not it's moral face-value. Thus, the reason for my confusion in her logic. By her suggesting in a thread where the argument is the moral question of the term Linux for ladies that pornography is not morally acceptable, tells me that she is putting that term in the same arena as pornography. After showing the shirt to my wife, she suggests the exact opposite of what is being described here. Her first thought was that Ubuntu is marketing Linux exclusively for women, thus alienating men. It is if Ubuntu is a feminine distro, and not good enough for men. So, if anyone should be offended, it should be the men who don't have a masculine Ubuntu version for them. Again, these were her first thoughts. Thanks, +--+ |Aaron Toponce _ Join the ASCII Ribbon Campaign | |OALUG President( ) http://www.asciiribbon.org | |http://www.aarontoponce.org X Against HTML e-mail| |http://www.oalug.com / \ Against proprietary attachments| +--Best viewed with a monospace font---+ Alan Pope wrote: Hi Aaron, On Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 07:33:42AM -0600, Aaron Toponce wrote: Melissa Draper wrote: Do a google search for the phrase for the ladies - Observe 1,950,000 results. Are all of these offensive? Do a google search for porn and tell me how many results you get. Not all the results are actually porn, so does this make porn ok as well? I understand the basis for his argument. I don't understand the basis for yours. Are you suggesting that the term Linux for ladies is porn? I read it that Melissa is arguing that just because it can be found on google, does not make it okay.. Cheers, Al. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sending the mail to the list this time, as Chris has gone and published part of what was a private mail, so as not to raise a flame war. Needless to say, that wish is now pointless. Chris Rowson wrote: Stuff like this drives me round the twist to be honest Why on Earth is there this subset of people who choose to see disrespect, problems and offense where there is obviouslly non meant! It's almost like people are looking for something to gripe about! 'Linux for Ladies' Take that term. How is it offensive? Do a google search for the phrase for the ladies - Observe 1,950,000 results. Are all of these offensive? Come on now Chris When I don't get harassed repeatedly due to Ubuntu, and can use my real name on irc, and in launchpad, etc, and be known for who I am, and not for being female, then i'll agree with you. As it is, I tend to only raise the stuff that I think is worth raising, precisely because of reactions like yours. Now, if the idea here is to gripe, perhaps i'll gripe about the users who harass myself and others, in day to day irc - which, of course, you can do nothing about. Hobbsee -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGyaKQ7/o1b30rzoURAvLsAJ9euGUhit7kQ7pSqeQrT8L2RM7hkQCfQzC0 /EeFgOlRR0Im7ovvPF//84g= =DjV3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Chris Rowson wrote: When I don't get harassed repeatedly due to Ubuntu, and can use my real name on irc, and in launchpad, etc, and be known for who I am, and not for being female, then i'll agree with you. As it is, I tend to only raise the stuff that I think is worth raising, precisely because of reactions like yours. So you think, that a slogan reading 'Linux for Ladies' on the back of a T-Shirt is offensive. I'm sorry for you, but I'm not sure that your particular view reflects that of everyone. You, have the choice not to buy or wear that T-Shirt as you see fit. I however, am an advocate of the right of a person to express his/her opinion. Any women who wish to purchase that T-Shirt should be allowed to (after all, these T-Shirts are for women aren't' they). Why I ask, should your opinion on the matter prevent those women from doing so? There is no problem whatsoever with letting people who want to buy that shirt from doing so. However the inability to buy one that doesn't broadcast one's femininity in that manner is the main factor of the dissatisfaction apparent with most people I spoke to on the issue. Why shouldn't *they* be able to buy a shirt that fits them and says the same thing as all the others do? I am truly sorry that you've bad experiences in IRC, and I would be the first to defend and support you in your fight to deal with people who treat you badly. Please don't let your bad experiences effect other women who want to get involved and support Ubuntu. Cheers Chris -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Aaron Toponce wrote: Chris' argument implies that the term for the ladies is a fairly popular term because it shows up on Google. Not whether or not it's ok. Whether or not the term is morally acceptable is the argument at hand. Pornography is extremely popular, yet most would argue that it is not morally acceptable. Art is also very popular, yet it is morally accepted. Whether or not Google shows x-number of hits regarding the topic only shows it's popularity, not it's moral face-value. Thus, the reason for my confusion in her logic. By her suggesting in a thread where the argument is the moral question of the term Linux for ladies that pornography is not morally acceptable, tells me that she is putting that term in the same arena as pornography. That is not the correlation I was drawing at all. It was simply the first 'really high' google search term that I thought of, that did not fit the 'google proves' argument as it was applied to 'for the ladies'. After showing the shirt to my wife, she suggests the exact opposite of what is being described here. Her first thought was that Ubuntu is marketing Linux exclusively for women, thus alienating men. It is if Ubuntu is a feminine distro, and not good enough for men. So, if anyone should be offended, it should be the men who don't have a masculine Ubuntu version for them. Again, these were her first thoughts. Thanks, snip -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Sending the mail to the list this time, as Chris has gone and published part of what was a private mail, so as not to raise a flame war. Needless to say, that wish is now pointless. I genuinely didn't realise you'd sent that off list - If you ever want an email to remain private please,please mark it OFF LIST or PRIVATE at the top of the text. If I'd had realised you wanted to talk privately I'd have never have sent that to the list. Cheers Chris -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
I genuinely didn't realise you'd sent that off list - If you ever want an email to remain private please,please mark it OFF LIST or PRIVATE at the top of the text. If I'd had realised you wanted to talk privately I'd have never have sent that to the list. Cheers Chris Sorry, just to make that a bit clearer - I'm using gmail. It doesn't display the subject in a long thread of emails thus if you put OFF LIST in the subject I don't see it :-S I've done this before to Popey, so please, if anyone wants to talk privately to me, please say so in the text of the email. I would never breach someone's privacy intentionally. Chris -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Personally, I'll have a 'Linux for Men' T-Shirt please. It'd make me feel well, Manly - Chris -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
And just to add another I asked my missus what she thought comment. I showed her the picture and asked straight out, 'What do you think of this T-Shirt?' Other than the T-Shirt was horrible, and that she wouldn't wear it 'cause it's boring (not an Ubuntu advocate then!), she said she wear it if she had to (but if I bought her one for her birthday I'd get kneecapped). When I told her the reason I'd asked, she couldn't see why on Earth any woman could be offended by it. Why not, I suggest offer a range of T-Shirts: Ubuntu, Linux for Ladies Ubuntu, Linux for Men Ubuntu, Linux for Uncle Arthurs Dog, Henry Ad Infinitum Chris -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Questionable Canonical Merchandise
Sarah Hobbs wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey all, No idea who's behind this marketing decision, but... http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/08/20/linux-for-ladies/ As discussed in #debian-women earlier...does that mean that ladies are no longer human beings now? I see the legend as a matter of slight humour only if the wearer intends humour. As I understand it, any humour would only be relevant when the wearer was making an implicit statement about the expectations of the reader. If the wearer does not intend humour, then - I guess they have a choice of what they wear. I might then have a wry amusement if they were in fact taking their legend seriously. From a merchandise aspect, there is not a clear message about what the wearer might intend, there is a possible double message. This might have been intended, and is surely typical of humour? But of course the best humour avoids offending its core audience. Humour often exists because of an area of tension, a nice balance with poor taste. -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
