Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Andy Whitcroft]

On Fri, Dec 09, 2011 at 01:34:18PM +, Paula Graham wrote:

> Dunno what's hogging the CPU but Oneiric takes literally (I've timed
> it) up to 6 mins to boot on my 4 GB Lenovo and almost as long to
> shut down and is sluggish in use. For several more minutes after
> logging in, the CPU is going hell-for-leather. Not to mention the
> freezing and crashing in use. It's a bog standard intel chipset

Can you point us to the bugs you have filed on these issues.  Clearly
that is not normal, especially as you were fine on the previous release.
This is also not normal experience across the board on 11:10 for me on the
8 or so machines I have running it.  Finally if you want to help ensure
they are fixed in 12.04 it is vital to test the liveCDs and report in
your bugs if they are not fixed.

-apw

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Titterton]

On Sat, 2011-12-10 at 09:19 +, Colin Law wrote:
> On 10 December 2011 08:12, Barry Titterton
>  wrote:
> > ...
> > My Toshiba running 11.10 takes five times longer to shut down compared
> > with when it was running 11.04. Start up times are about the same.
> 
> If the majority of the delay is caused by logout rather than the
> actual shutdown (try logging out then shutting down to find out) then
> there are two bugs that I know of that you might be hitting.
> 
> If you are using Tomboy then you are probably hitting [1] Tomboy
> causing delay on logout or shutdown.  The workaround is to quit Tomboy
> before logging out by clicking on its icon in the top panel and
> selecting Quit.  Just closing the tomboy windows leaves it running in
> the background.
> 
> If you are using Unity-2d then there is [2] Long delay on session logout.
> 
> If you are using neither of these then it must be something else.  It
> would be useful if you could try and determine what it is that is
> triggering the delay.  Have a look in syslog to see if there is
> anything.  Try logging in and immediately logging out without starting
> any apps (assuming the delay is the logout).
> 
> If the delay is during shutdown rather than logout do you have any
> network shares?  If so if you unmount those first or temporarily
> remove them from fstab (and reboot obviously) does it help?
> 
> Colin
> 
> 
> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+bug/880299
> [2] https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-2d/+bug/812104
> 
Hi Colin,
Thank you for your response. To answer your questions:

1. I do not use Tomboy.
2. I do use Unity 2D on this machine as I found 3D to cause multiple
crashes, both of the desktop and Firefox. With 2D the machine is stable.
I have tried logging out before shut down, as you suggested. The logout
was quite quick but the subsequent shut down was still very slow. During
shut down I have the Ubuntu name on the screen with the five colour
changing dots below. With 11.04 I could count 3 dots to shut down, now
with 11.10 it takes 16 dots. This may not be a very scientific method
but it is a good visual indication of the difference in time taken.
3. I do not mount any network shares.

Barry T


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Colin Law]

On 10 December 2011 08:12, Barry Titterton
 wrote:
> ...
> My Toshiba running 11.10 takes five times longer to shut down compared
> with when it was running 11.04. Start up times are about the same.

If the majority of the delay is caused by logout rather than the
actual shutdown (try logging out then shutting down to find out) then
there are two bugs that I know of that you might be hitting.

If you are using Tomboy then you are probably hitting [1] Tomboy
causing delay on logout or shutdown.  The workaround is to quit Tomboy
before logging out by clicking on its icon in the top panel and
selecting Quit.  Just closing the tomboy windows leaves it running in
the background.

If you are using Unity-2d then there is [2] Long delay on session logout.

If you are using neither of these then it must be something else.  It
would be useful if you could try and determine what it is that is
triggering the delay.  Have a look in syslog to see if there is
anything.  Try logging in and immediately logging out without starting
any apps (assuming the delay is the logout).

If the delay is during shutdown rather than logout do you have any
network shares?  If so if you unmount those first or temporarily
remove them from fstab (and reboot obviously) does it help?

Colin


[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+bug/880299
[2] https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-2d/+bug/812104

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Titterton]

On Fri, 2011-12-09 at 13:34 +, Paula Graham wrote:

> >> The only issues I see
> >> within Ubuntu are Compiz as a CPU hog
> Dunno what's hogging the CPU but Oneiric takes literally (I've timed it) 
> up to 6 mins to boot on my 4 GB Lenovo and almost as long to shut down 
> and is sluggish in use.
> 
> Paula
> 

My Toshiba running 11.10 takes five times longer to shut down compared
with when it was running 11.04. Start up times are about the same.

Barry T


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Avi Greenbury]

Paula Graham wrote:

> On 03/12/11 04:15, Liam Proven wrote:
> > On 2 December 2011 11:30, Simon Greenwood
> > wrote:
> >> For my 2p worth, I'm happy with Unity as I like the paradigm of
> >> the GUI, having returned to Linux after many years of OS X.
> > I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone
> > knows is Windows, they're lost.
> >
> >> The only issues I see
> >> within Ubuntu are Compiz as a CPU hog
> Dunno what's hogging the CPU but Oneiric takes literally (I've timed
> it) up to 6 mins to boot on my 4 GB Lenovo and almost as long to shut
> down and is sluggish in use.

It's probably worth measuring what's going on here, perhaps with
bootchart. Even if the output doesn't mean anything to you, it
(hopefully) does to someone, and can form the basis of a bug report.

 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootCharting

> For several more minutes after logging in, the CPU is going
> hell-for-leather. Not to mention the freezing and crashing in use.
> It's a bog standard intel chipset that's a few years old, I don't get
> it! 

Do you know what's using up the processor here? Which processes, for 
exaple?

> On my barebone ATI 64-bit PC I use for media (it serves files and
> therefore has a static IP), Oneiric clobbers the dns config on every
> reboot and the network runs with a top speed of 40-50 mbps when it's
> normally capable of at least 350 mbps. Networking is also very slow
> on the Lenovo.

I've not seen either of these - how are you measuring the network
speed? I think the clobbering of DNS is definitely a bug - how is the
static IP set up, and are you running anything like network-manager?
You could probably get around it by setting resolf.conf immutable, but
that might just cause whatever's broken to fail.

> I just hope that 12.04 prioritises stabilising the *&@" thing and 
> soft pedals on further innovation until Unity is stable on mainstream 
> PCs and laptops.

By all accounts, Unity on 12.04, even in the current alpha, is a big
improvement on 11.10's. That said, this is a wish that's expressed with
every release - that they stop doing features and just fix bugs
instead :)


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Steve Flynn]

On 9 December 2011 13:34, Paula Graham  wrote:

> Dunno what's hogging the CPU but Oneiric takes literally (I've timed it) up
> to 6 mins to boot on my 4 GB Lenovo and almost as long to shut down and is
> sluggish in use. For several more minutes after logging in, the CPU is going
> hell-for-leather. Not to mention the freezing and crashing in use. It's a

Post a bootchart Paula and we'll see what we can pull out of it.

-- 
Steve

When one person suffers from a delusion it is insanity. When many
people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Paula Graham]

On 03/12/11 04:15, Liam Proven wrote:

On 2 December 2011 11:30, Simon Greenwood  wrote:

For my 2p worth, I'm happy with Unity as I like the paradigm of the GUI,
having returned to Linux after many years of OS X.

I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone knows
is Windows, they're lost.


The only issues I see
within Ubuntu are Compiz as a CPU hog
Dunno what's hogging the CPU but Oneiric takes literally (I've timed it) 
up to 6 mins to boot on my 4 GB Lenovo and almost as long to shut down 
and is sluggish in use. For several more minutes after logging in, the 
CPU is going hell-for-leather. Not to mention the freezing and crashing 
in use. It's a bog standard intel chipset that's a few years old, I 
don't get it! On the same laptop, Bodhi, with 3.0 kernel, boots and 
shuts down in seconds without the crashing and freezing on FF and LO and 
CPU drops down as soon as login is complete. On my barebone ATI 64-bit 
PC I use for media (it serves files and therefore has a static IP), 
Oneiric clobbers the dns config on every reboot and the network runs 
with a top speed of 40-50 mbps when it's normally capable of at least 
350 mbps. Networking is also very slow on the Lenovo.


I don't like to whine, I think Ubuntu's a great project - but it's 
currently unuseable for me on any of my personal computers/laptops - the 
ones at Fossbox have Natty on production machines and Oneiric on the 
training laptops (where it installs OK and the dynamic networking is 
working, but still does crash a lot).


The crashing is upsetting our non-techie users too and damping their 
enthusiasm for Ubuntu, which is a shame.


I just hope that 12.04 prioritises stabilising the *&@" thing and 
soft pedals on further innovation until Unity is stable on mainstream 
PCs and laptops.


Paula

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Kris Douglas]

On 6 December 2011 21:49, alan c  wrote:
> On 02/12/11 06:04, Nigel Verity wrote:
>> Thunar, is a little lacking in advanced functionality
>
> I was amazed  when I found I could use thunar to change filenames en
> masse using it.

I understand why thunar doesn't have tabs but I would still like to
see that implemented, even without though it's absolutely brilliant.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 06:04, Nigel Verity wrote:
> Thunar, is a little lacking in advanced functionality

I was amazed  when I found I could use thunar to change filenames en
masse using it.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 15:57, Gareth France wrote:
> Very true, I'm quite new here so I don't really know anyone yet. Oddly
> enough everyone I'm getting to know seems to be called Alan!! 

ROFL
Hey, but I was called Alan first! ( I think)
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 12:17, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 12:12:46PM +, Gareth France wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Andy Smith  wrote:
>> > It is very difficult to take a post like this seriously.
>> >
>> I don't know, it seems to have sparked a rather healthy debate.
> 
> I just can't imagine that a single person's mind will be changed by
> this thread. If the original post is taken at face value then it's
> clear that a strong opinion has already been formed.

I  *feel* better after engaging with this thread.
As the credit card advert says: 'Priceless'
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 12:12, Gareth France wrote:
>> >
>> > It is very difficult to take a post like this seriously.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Andy
>> >
> I don't know, it seems to have sparked a rather healthy debate.

Very much so, and I have appreciated it.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 03/12/11 13:59, Liam Proven wrote:
>  But, no, instead, they blame Ubuntu for
> a UI that they just happen not to like and say that they are leaving
> Ubuntu, that's it's turned to rubbish, etc. etc.

What people 'blame' a product for is normally managed by such as
marketing and or public relations specialists. The wall to wall retail
environment we live in is so saturated with this various output that
when it arises that happenings are out of line with our expectations,
then there is shock and awe of an adverse kind. Mark S. is a straight
from the shoulder sort of person, and I have not seen anything with
suggests Canonical has tried to advance manage the reaction to Unity,
and the retro management of adverse reactions seems pretty much based
on logic and reason. Unfortunately when people have reacted, in part,
emotionally, then cold reason can be misinterpreted as not caring or
whatever.

I do not know what chance there is of this but I would love to imagine
that Canonical might find a suitable public relations or similar,
specialist, to keep in a nearby cupboard!
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction? Previous Windows user?

[alan c]

On 03/12/11 13:24, Avi Greenbury wrote:
> Barry Drake wrote:
> 
>> On 03/12/11 04:15, Liam Proven wrote:
>> > I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone
>> > knows is Windows, they're lost.
>> 
>> In a recent post, Paula said exactly the opposite - and she's working 
>> with Windows folk at FossBox on a day to day basis.
>> 
> 
> I think we (the Ubuntu community) massively overplay the standardisation
> in ability and expectations of a Windows user. I don't see why we seem
> to feel that Linux needs umpteen window managers to satisfy all its
> users (which it clearly does) but Windows users have only ever wanted
> the Windows 2000 interface and are completely stumped as soon as the
> start menu is at the top.

A (previous) Windows user I helped into Ubuntu a year ago still has
trouble with copy and paste, and certainly had trouble with a then
impossibly slow and probably (OS) damaged XP machine. However, they
took to Ubuntu 10.04.3 like a duck to water and continue to be happy.
A recently new purchased printer (they did not tell me first) did not
seem to do what they wanted, so they returned it to the high street
store, and a low price HP all in one was then chosen at slightly
increased cost. This user tried to follow in box instructions for
printer install, but then resorted to phoning HP helpline (they DID
give their phone number!) After what I think were heroic efforts,
including from HP, it did end in failure though, and this indomitable
user eventually decided to call me. I had said to call me at the
slightest question but this often does not seem to happen, people can
be reluctant to 'impose' or trouble me.
Anyway, within an hour (lives close by) I am happy to say the latest
hplip was installed and all was working. The level of effort that had
been used was suggested by the fact of me finding that HPLIP had been
downloaded seven times before I was contacted. HP support deserve a
medal for that, as does the very non techy user.

PS: why cannot the latest HPLIP *always* be part of normal updates in
Ubuntu?
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 14:53, Paula Graham wrote:
>  Dropbox now for my own personal use but will

I stopped using dropbox and went to spideroak when dropbox messed up
on their passwords security whatever. Anyway I actually find spideroak
much easier to understand :-/  and  they hold stuff encrypted by
default which suits me.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 14:04, Gareth France wrote:
> There NEEDS to be a quick response, even if that response is 'you have to
> subscribe', 'you have to upgrade', 'you're supposed to look there'! The
> lack of replies from Canonical is causing me major headaches.

I have usually received replies to my occasional contacts and
inquiries. A response to a trademark enquiry from me yielded an almost
instant machine response and I got an appropriate person response 22
days after that, which was ok for me.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 13:55, Avi Greenbury wrote:
> paul sutton wrote:
> 
>> I am sure if you got to Microsoft or Apple or any other BIG player you
>> get a fast response.  This is the business world i guess people want a
>> quick response.
> 
> Only if you pay them for it; Canonical sell that sort of support
> contract, too.

They are, after all, trying to make a successful business!
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 11:53, Alan Bell wrote:
>  If you are selling computers 
> and want to pre-install Ubuntu then the OEM team might be interested if 
> you are getting them made in volumes of tens of thousands or more in the 
> far East. For less than that it is community based support through the 
> LoCo team, and don't depend on fast responses from Canonical for anything.

I guess that relates  to them being such a relatively small company,
which does have significant benefits too of course.

When I needed temporary use of Ubuntu stuff in the past, I was at that
time, quickly loaned a 2 meter high Ubuntu roll up free standing
banner. On another occasion, I did get a rapid response to a one-off
urgent request I had for marketing.
It does sound as if the (unique) free software business model might
well be having  a limited resources effect.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 10:27, Kris Douglas wrote:
> get there but the Ubuntu developers have to remember if they scare all
> their users away with very "beta" software, they will not easily come
> back. 

I think this is a real issue and there factors that are in the realm
of marketing and public relations. Where hearts and minds are
concerned, then minds can be reasoned with and ultimately convinced,
however, hearts are a different, err, kettle of fish.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 09:00, Alan Bell wrote:
>  I would encourage 
> you to give Precise a test and file bugs

I am happy to say I have recently filed a 'bug'  re the Unity GUI
because I could see that it was not doing justice to itself, and the
bug has been accepted
#887341
:-)
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 08:48, Barry Drake wrote:
> On 02/12/11 08:21, Matthew Daubney wrote:
>> Ubuntu does have a 24 month release cycle version, the LTS release. 
>> These releases are targeted at stability more than anything else. The 
>> next release 12.04 will be an LTS. -Matt Daubney 
> 
> And it will be good!  Yesterday's release of Alpha 1 is looking so 
> stable already that I have installed it and will attempt to use it as my 
> main desktop throughout Alpha and Beta cycles. Obviously it will sync 
> with my existing 11.10 just in case ...  But this way, I will be able to 
> test in a better way, and enjoy the process.  I would have liked to see 
> 12.04 being more configurable Unity-wise than it's going to be, but 
> otherwise, I've got used to it and like it.  From my point of view, it's 
> great to have the same appearance on my desktop and netbook.  Nothing 
> gets in the way, and the equivalent of the old Gnome menus is provided 
> in the lenses.

yes, I have tried the daily build (alpha 1 plus) desktop iso this
morning as a live session, and it looks pretty good, and in that
particular test machine, pretty fast too.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 08:21, Matthew Daubney wrote:
> On 2 December 2011 01:20, Ivan Wright  wrote:
>> I think they needed to move on and change style, we couldn't sit with a
>> 1995 styled OS forever.
>> What should be done is to do away with the six month development cycle,
>> which is far too short for the amount of work needed on Unity. An 8-12
>> month cycle would have been far better and allowed time for more bug
>> fixes.
> 
> 
> 
> Ubuntu does have a 24 month release cycle version, the LTS release.
> These releases are targeted at stability more than anything else. The
> next release 12.04 will be an LTS.
> -Matt Daubney

I have never seen stability of the OS  as a stated motive for the LTS
cycle, I would be interested to see a reference to this. What I have
seen is a lengthened support and updates cycle and this seems to me to
be focussed on security rather than bugs. My own experience has
suggested that there is rather limited interest in bug fixing in a
(desktop) LTS  once it is nearing a 2 year age, even though it will
have a further year of life. This does not include paid for support,
which I have not used.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[alan c]

On 02/12/11 08:52, Juan J. Martínez wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 00:58 +, Phill Whiteside wrote:
>> > I certainly do not wish to partake in a flame war. People are
>> > naturally conservative. Take for example how long it took for Lubuntu
>> > to gain adoption. If you are unhappy with Unity, then try any of the
>> > other flavours of Ubuntu. I have to disclose an interest in Lubuntu as
>> > I've been with it and helping since 9.10. I echo the words about
>> > Unity, getting a new build is no mean feat!.
>> > 
> I agree with you, although *personally* I don't like the way Canonical
> is acting as the no-so-benevolent dictator. I liked it better when
> Ubuntu was a truly community effort backened by Canonical because it
> felt like Debian (I was a Debian user back then, 2004). Now seems that
> Canonical keeps the "come and contribute" thing but at the same time
> there's an anti-community attitude that I definitely don't like.

I feel this too, and it has affected me so much that I have given it
some considerable thought, because I live and breath Ubuntu. So I have
thought deep and long to try to analyse what is happening. I think I
see the issues fairly clearly now, although unfortunately there are
still surprisingly strong emotional responses in me which are
demotivating, to the detriment of Ubuntu.

I posted a summary of my conclusions as one of the comments on the
Marcel Gagne blog ' Who cares about your dang Desktop Environment?!',
as comment link
'I like Unity, Sorry'
http://marcelgagne.com/comment/5618#comment-5618
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction? - posters

[Bruno Girin]

On 02/12/11 22:21, paul sutton wrote:

On 02/12/11 21:43, Barry Drake wrote:

On 02/12/11 21:40, Andres wrote:

Hi,thanks for the link but in
Alt+SysRq+R+S+E+I+U+B
but what is the SysRq button? is it in all keyboards?


Normally it is the Prt Scr button - t is labelled Prt Scr / SysRq on
most keyboards.



actually that is a good point,  on some keyboards its just prt-scr so I
may alter the how to to reflect this.


And some others actually use unexpected combinations, especially laptops 
and netbooks. I've got an article on the subject here: 
http://brunogirin.blogspot.com/2010/02/raising-elephants-on-thinkpad-t42-and.html


Cheers,

Bruno


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Paul Tansom]

** Colin Law  [2011-12-03 09:59]:
> On 2 December 2011 23:36, Paul Tansom  wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > I want to add parameters to the launcher icon, or add my own application to 
> > the
> > launcher (I really must find the configuration file to do this), but this
> > doesn't seem possible in an easy manner yet. If the application isn't 
> > available
> > through the dash then you can't drag it on (I have a scrip to start JTides 
> > that
> > I'd like to add), and if it is but you want to start with specific 
> > parameters
> > you can't (I want to start XTides with Portsmouth as the default location 
> > using
> > command line options).
> 
> Have a look at [1] for suggestions on how to create custom items on
> the launcher.  Read right through as there are a number of options.
> Also [2] in particular for how to create quicklists in launchers so
> you can right click and get a selection of things to run.  I use this
> to allow right click on the terminal launcher which then gives me a
> list of all my servers which I can ssh into.
> 
> Colin
> 
> [1] 
> http://askubuntu.com/questions/13758/how-can-i-edit-create-new-launcher-items-in-unity-by-hand
> [2] http://www.webupd8.org/2011/04/things-to-tweak-fix-after-installing.html
> 
** end quote [Colin Law]

That sounds good, I'll have a good read. I've been searching for something
useful, but Google is about as clogged with junk as Yahoo was in the 90's and
I've not had much success. I'm hoping for another new kid on the block search
wise that is as useful for finding things as Google was when it first started -
it was great for Linux stuff back then!!

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Paul Tansom]

** Tony Pursell  [2011-12-03 00:42]:
> On 2 December 2011 23:36, Paul Tansom  wrote:
> > ** Alan Pope  [2011-12-02 11:03]:
> > > On 01/12/11 23:52, thegeeksquad...@ymail.com wrote:
> > > >Is Ubuntu going in the wrong direction?
> > >
> > > I personally don't believe so, no. I personally think it's going in
> > > exactly the _right_ direction, but some people seem obsessed by
> > > yesterday, today and tomorrow and not next year or next decade.
> >
> > I agree, I think in the longer term this will probably be good. I certainly
> > prefer Unity to Gnome Shell (with the proviso that this is based on reading
> > about both, but only having used Unity so far!). My main gripe is that it
> > has
> > been rushed out as the primary desktop when it is so painfully unfinished.
> > Things I want to do just aren't easy yet and force me to the command line
> > and
> > Google (this feels very last millenium Linux!), and some of the changes
> > I'm not
> > keen on I could easily adjust if there were configuration options for them.
> >
> > A few examples:
> >
> You can use the Ubuntu Unity Plugin options in CompizConfig Settings
> Manager to alter how the Launcher hides/reveals.  You will probably have to
> install CompizConfig Settings Manager.  Its not installed by default as far
> as I know, and I think that is because it is dangerous to change some of
> the other features with Unity running.

Yes, I tried that, but as you say it is dangerous, and not just if you change
something. I found that just looking to see what configuration options were in
one section immediately lost Unity altogether and I haven't yet managed to
completely restore everything. The main thing left is the coloured our greyed
state of the windows, they seem to be defined on opening and never change,
which can cause confusion as to which is active!

> There is also a GUI being developed for creating .desktop files as used in
> the Launcher, etc,  For now, there is some stuff around, particularly on
> AskUbuntu, which describes how they are put together.

I'll have to take another look. Unity does, for now at least, seem to be taking
you back to the late 90's in terms of needing to adjust configurations by
editing config files in Vim. Not that I spefically object to that personally,
so long as there is decent documentation, but it is far from "Linux for Human
Beings"!

** end quote [Tony Pursell]

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==
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Avi Greenbury]

Tony Pursell wrote:

> > Multiple windows? I am curious - how so?
> Sorry, I meant multiple workspaces.  (Maybe we *should* call them
> windows)

But then what would we call windows?

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Liam Proven]

On 3 December 2011 17:14, Tony Pursell  wrote:
>
>
> On 3 December 2011 16:38, Liam Proven  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3 December 2011 16:33, Tony Pursell 
>> wrote:>
>
>> effortlessly use multiple windows but ever used them in Gnome.
>>
>> Multiple windows? I am curious - how so?
>
> Sorry, I meant multiple workspaces.  (Maybe we *should* call them windows)

Ahh, right. Yes, me too, actually.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Tony Pursell]

On 3 December 2011 16:38, Liam Proven  wrote:

>
> On 3 December 2011 16:33, Tony Pursell 
> wrote:>
>


> effortlessly use multiple windows but ever used them in Gnome.
>
> Multiple windows? I am curious - how so?
>
>
Sorry, I meant multiple workspaces.  (Maybe we *should* call them windows)

Tony
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Andy Braben]

>
>
> > I think the big failing was not to prepare people for Unity and to give
> > little help when it hit them.  There was a lot of discussion about
> providing
> > some transitional help by way of default Unity Help on the desktop or a
> Tip
> > of the Day facility, but nothing came of it.  So now we are facing the
> next
> > big migration to Unity, when people upgrade from 10.04LTS to 12.04LTS,
> this
> > is going to happen all over again.  Shame.
>
> I think you're right. What do you reckon anyone could do to help?
>
> Is help needed?

I have a friend who is non-techie, used Windows at work, and as he did some
personal work at work after hours had no need for a computer at home, and
then got made redundant. I had to supply him with a computer and before
handing it over left Windows as a small partition, and installed Ubuntu
10.10 (which was current at the time).

He gets on very well with Ubuntu. When he bought a Brother printer, the CD
that came with it just came up with an error message on Windows 7, but no
problem connecting it on Ubuntu. That was a pleasant experience for him,
and a good laugh for me. He has upgraded himself to 11.04, then 11.10 with
no help from me. His view on Unity is that it takes longer to find
applications, but just gets on with being a non-techie user doing what he
wants and needs to do.

He has found a couple of problems with 11.10 but nothing severe that can't
easily be dealt with. I have been able to replicate them and I have checked
that they have been bug-reported.

My only wish is that I had wiped the drive completely as he doesn't use
Windows at all.

I have other people using Ubuntu 10.04LTS under my guidance, and I expect
similar - "it's different but I can still get on with life" type comments
back when they are upgraded to 12.04LTS.


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Andy
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Liam Proven]

On 3 December 2011 16:33, Tony Pursell  wrote:
>
>
> On 3 December 2011 13:59, Liam Proven  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3 December 2011 08:36, Barry Drake  wrote:
>> > On 03/12/11 04:15, Liam Proven wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone knows
>> >> is
>> >> Windows, they're lost.
>> >
>> > In a recent post, Paula said exactly the opposite - and she's working
>> > with
>> > Windows folk at FossBox on a day to day basis.
>>
>> To quote Dr Ben "Bad Science" Goldacre, I think you'll find it's a bit
>> more complicated than that.
>>
>> If someone is a reasonably expert "techie" and knows their way around
>> one type of computer fairly well, and then some major element of the
>> UI is suddenly changed, they seem liable to become lost and very
>> angry.
>>
>> OTOH, if someone is an "ordinary user", who has never really
>> understood computers and doesn't know the difference between icons and
>> buttons, or what a "dialog box" is, then they just sort of feel their
>> way around. They don't really know what they are doing and have no
>> particular expectations of what the UI will do - they don't know what
>> a "UI" is. They just click buttons. Sometimes, stuff happens.
>> Sometimes, it doesn't, in which case, click again a few times and
>> failing that move on and do something else, or ask someone for help.
>>
>> /That/ kind of user is fine with a change of UI. They didn't
>> understand the old one, they don't understand the new one, but so long
>> as it has big colourful buttons they can click and it does stuff in
>> response, they're happy.
>>
>> This sort of user - and they are the majority of users - do not /do/
>> things like have multiple app windows open and switch between them.
>> They don't switch virtual desktops. They don't juggle multiple
>> instances of apps. They work in one app at a time. If it opens
>> fullscreen, they use it fullscreen; if it opens in a window, they use
>> it in a window. If it opens minimised, then to them, it didn't work.
>> They can't see it, can't find it and don't know to look for icons in
>> trays and things.
>>
>> So there are 3 categories of user here:
>>
>> [1] experts who use multiple OSs and multiple GUIs and are comfortable
>> in all of them.
>> [2] techies who only really know one UI and tend to be infuriated if it
>> changes
>> [3] non-techies, who don't really *know* /any/ UI and barely notice
>> changes
>>
>> Unity is fine with groups 1 & 3 but infuriates group 2.
>>
>> Now this is obviously a sweeping generalisation. For instance, I know
>> some highly-skilled experts who hate Unity, too! :¬)
>>
>> But then, for instance, if someone is a highly-skilled expert and
>> really drives the UI hard, then small things like, say, the fact that
>> Unity's multiple-desktop support doesn't have window thumbnail
>> previews in it, when the GNOME one did, is a significant feature loss.
>> I routinely work with half a dozen windows open and Unity's window
>> management is fine for me - but I know people who claim to routinely
>> work with 30, 40, 50+ windows open and for them it's not good enough.
>>
>> OTOH, very skilled people like that are entirely capable of switching
>> to a different desktop, and that's fine and good.
>>
>> The problem is when they:
>> [a] bad-mouth Unity and tell others it's useless rubbish (i.e.,
>> projecting their experiences or preferences onto others)
>> [b] blame Ubuntu for removing GNOME 2, when it wasn't Ubuntu's fault
>> (i.e. misplace the blame & fail to realise that Ubuntu had no choice,
>> that the GNOME Project killed its own child in favour of the new baby)
>> [c] can't find a new desktop they like and complain that Ubuntu isn't
>> democratic (it never was, but if someone's a bit inflexible and can
>> only cope with a single UI, it's not the distributor's fault.)
>>
>> The one that makes me particularly sad is when people try Unity, hate
>> it, switch to GNOME 3 Shell and like it and then use it to bad-mouth
>> Unity. I am sure GNOME Shell is fine - I can use it, I just don't like
>> it much. But Unity is more like GNOME 2 than GNOME Shell is. If Ubuntu
>> had gone with GNOME Shell, then it would have been an even bigger
>> change and I am absolutely certain that those people would have
>> complained about it even more! But, no, instead, they blame Ubuntu for
>> a UI that they just happen not to like and say that they are leaving
>> Ubuntu, that's it's turned to rubbish, etc. etc.
>>
>>
>
> Well said, Liam.

Thanks! (I have received a /lot/ of stick and even abuse for this type
of comment, of late.)

> I had thought Unity bashing was a thing of the past (ie back in 11.04).  I
> suspect there is a sizeable silent majority (me included) that just got on
> with it and have grown to love Unity.  In Unity, for instance, I
> effortlessly use multiple windows but ever used them in Gnome.

Multiple windows? I am curious - how so?

> I think the big failing was not to prepare people for Unity and to give
> little he

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Tony Pursell]

On 3 December 2011 13:59, Liam Proven  wrote:

>
> On 3 December 2011 08:36, Barry Drake  wrote:
> > On 03/12/11 04:15, Liam Proven wrote:
> >>
> >> I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone knows is
> >> Windows, they're lost.
> >
> > In a recent post, Paula said exactly the opposite - and she's working
> with
> > Windows folk at FossBox on a day to day basis.
>
> To quote Dr Ben "Bad Science" Goldacre, I think you'll find it's a bit
> more complicated than that.
>
> If someone is a reasonably expert "techie" and knows their way around
> one type of computer fairly well, and then some major element of the
> UI is suddenly changed, they seem liable to become lost and very
> angry.
>
> OTOH, if someone is an "ordinary user", who has never really
> understood computers and doesn't know the difference between icons and
> buttons, or what a "dialog box" is, then they just sort of feel their
> way around. They don't really know what they are doing and have no
> particular expectations of what the UI will do - they don't know what
> a "UI" is. They just click buttons. Sometimes, stuff happens.
> Sometimes, it doesn't, in which case, click again a few times and
> failing that move on and do something else, or ask someone for help.
>
> /That/ kind of user is fine with a change of UI. They didn't
> understand the old one, they don't understand the new one, but so long
> as it has big colourful buttons they can click and it does stuff in
> response, they're happy.
>
> This sort of user - and they are the majority of users - do not /do/
> things like have multiple app windows open and switch between them.
> They don't switch virtual desktops. They don't juggle multiple
> instances of apps. They work in one app at a time. If it opens
> fullscreen, they use it fullscreen; if it opens in a window, they use
> it in a window. If it opens minimised, then to them, it didn't work.
> They can't see it, can't find it and don't know to look for icons in
> trays and things.
>
> So there are 3 categories of user here:
>
> [1] experts who use multiple OSs and multiple GUIs and are comfortable
> in all of them.
> [2] techies who only really know one UI and tend to be infuriated if it
> changes
> [3] non-techies, who don't really *know* /any/ UI and barely notice changes
>
> Unity is fine with groups 1 & 3 but infuriates group 2.
>
> Now this is obviously a sweeping generalisation. For instance, I know
> some highly-skilled experts who hate Unity, too! :¬)
>
> But then, for instance, if someone is a highly-skilled expert and
> really drives the UI hard, then small things like, say, the fact that
> Unity's multiple-desktop support doesn't have window thumbnail
> previews in it, when the GNOME one did, is a significant feature loss.
> I routinely work with half a dozen windows open and Unity's window
> management is fine for me - but I know people who claim to routinely
> work with 30, 40, 50+ windows open and for them it's not good enough.
>
> OTOH, very skilled people like that are entirely capable of switching
> to a different desktop, and that's fine and good.
>
> The problem is when they:
> [a] bad-mouth Unity and tell others it's useless rubbish (i.e.,
> projecting their experiences or preferences onto others)
> [b] blame Ubuntu for removing GNOME 2, when it wasn't Ubuntu's fault
> (i.e. misplace the blame & fail to realise that Ubuntu had no choice,
> that the GNOME Project killed its own child in favour of the new baby)
> [c] can't find a new desktop they like and complain that Ubuntu isn't
> democratic (it never was, but if someone's a bit inflexible and can
> only cope with a single UI, it's not the distributor's fault.)
>
> The one that makes me particularly sad is when people try Unity, hate
> it, switch to GNOME 3 Shell and like it and then use it to bad-mouth
> Unity. I am sure GNOME Shell is fine - I can use it, I just don't like
> it much. But Unity is more like GNOME 2 than GNOME Shell is. If Ubuntu
> had gone with GNOME Shell, then it would have been an even bigger
> change and I am absolutely certain that those people would have
> complained about it even more! But, no, instead, they blame Ubuntu for
> a UI that they just happen not to like and say that they are leaving
> Ubuntu, that's it's turned to rubbish, etc. etc.
>
>
>
Well said, Liam.

I had thought Unity bashing was a thing of the past (ie back in 11.04).  I
suspect there is a sizeable silent majority (me included) that just got on
with it and have grown to love Unity.  In Unity, for instance, I
effortlessly use multiple windows but ever used them in Gnome.

I think the big failing was not to prepare people for Unity and to give
little help when it hit them.  There was a lot of discussion about
providing some transitional help by way of default Unity Help on the
desktop or a Tip of the Day facility, but nothing came of it.  So now we
are facing the next big migration to Unity, when people upgrade from
10.04LTS to 12.04LTS, this is goin

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Liam Proven]

On 3 December 2011 15:02, Barry Drake  wrote:
> On 03/12/11 13:59, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> [1] experts who use multiple OSs and multiple GUIs and are comfortable
>> in all of them.
>> [2] techies who only really know one UI and tend to be infuriated if it
>> changes
>> [3] non-techies, who don't really *know* /any/ UI and barely notice
>> changes
>> Unity is fine with groups 1&  3 but infuriates group 2.
>
> Nah.  Real techies only use the commandline - and they'll be fine with any
> Ubuntu.  Forget the gui and just do 'ctrl-alt-f2' (or f1) and do all your
> work there.

:¬D

IKWYM & I know people that work like that - but they tend to be the
old-time Unix hardcore, and as such, Ubuntu probably isn't the distro
for them. I reckon they're more likely to be on Debian or Slackware or
something. Possibly Arch. My impression is only the "ricers" still
bother with Gentoo, for all that it was the mad new l33t thing a few
years ago.

OTOH, even that type of user, who just run a bunch of xterms, get
annoyed when their window management system changes.

Me, I'm too lazy. I can drive a box like that, sure, but I actually
like it when I plug in a USB drive and *bing!* an icon just appears on
my desktop & I can double-click it and get at the contents. No mucking
around with making a mountpoint, inspecting the last few lines of the
system log to find the device name, identifying its filesystem and
then mounting it myself.

Secondly, despite 23y of practice, I don't actually like shell much.
The case-sensitivity and wildcard expansion annoys me. I understand
why it's there and the theory of how and why it works, but I prefer
the DOS command line. I know - heresy!

> But I do take your point.  I think obsessive-compulsive describes your group
> 2 best.

"You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment." ;¬)

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 03/12/11 13:59, Liam Proven wrote:

[1] experts who use multiple OSs and multiple GUIs and are comfortable
in all of them.
[2] techies who only really know one UI and tend to be infuriated if it changes
[3] non-techies, who don't really *know* /any/ UI and barely notice changes
Unity is fine with groups 1&  3 but infuriates group 2.
Nah.  Real techies only use the commandline - and they'll be fine with 
any Ubuntu.  Forget the gui and just do 'ctrl-alt-f2' (or f1) and do all 
your work there.  Going from dos to Windows kind of spoilt it for me 
just the same as when I stopped photographing in B&W and doing my own 
processing and moved to colour.  Mind you, now in this digital age, I 
can photograph in B&W and process my own  ;-)


But I do take your point.  I think obsessive-compulsive describes your 
group 2 best.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Liam Proven]

On 3 December 2011 08:36, Barry Drake  wrote:
> On 03/12/11 04:15, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone knows is
>> Windows, they're lost.
>
> In a recent post, Paula said exactly the opposite - and she's working with
> Windows folk at FossBox on a day to day basis.

To quote Dr Ben "Bad Science" Goldacre, I think you'll find it's a bit
more complicated than that.

If someone is a reasonably expert "techie" and knows their way around
one type of computer fairly well, and then some major element of the
UI is suddenly changed, they seem liable to become lost and very
angry.

OTOH, if someone is an "ordinary user", who has never really
understood computers and doesn't know the difference between icons and
buttons, or what a "dialog box" is, then they just sort of feel their
way around. They don't really know what they are doing and have no
particular expectations of what the UI will do - they don't know what
a "UI" is. They just click buttons. Sometimes, stuff happens.
Sometimes, it doesn't, in which case, click again a few times and
failing that move on and do something else, or ask someone for help.

/That/ kind of user is fine with a change of UI. They didn't
understand the old one, they don't understand the new one, but so long
as it has big colourful buttons they can click and it does stuff in
response, they're happy.

This sort of user - and they are the majority of users - do not /do/
things like have multiple app windows open and switch between them.
They don't switch virtual desktops. They don't juggle multiple
instances of apps. They work in one app at a time. If it opens
fullscreen, they use it fullscreen; if it opens in a window, they use
it in a window. If it opens minimised, then to them, it didn't work.
They can't see it, can't find it and don't know to look for icons in
trays and things.

So there are 3 categories of user here:

[1] experts who use multiple OSs and multiple GUIs and are comfortable
in all of them.
[2] techies who only really know one UI and tend to be infuriated if it changes
[3] non-techies, who don't really *know* /any/ UI and barely notice changes

Unity is fine with groups 1 & 3 but infuriates group 2.

Now this is obviously a sweeping generalisation. For instance, I know
some highly-skilled experts who hate Unity, too! :¬)

But then, for instance, if someone is a highly-skilled expert and
really drives the UI hard, then small things like, say, the fact that
Unity's multiple-desktop support doesn't have window thumbnail
previews in it, when the GNOME one did, is a significant feature loss.
I routinely work with half a dozen windows open and Unity's window
management is fine for me - but I know people who claim to routinely
work with 30, 40, 50+ windows open and for them it's not good enough.

OTOH, very skilled people like that are entirely capable of switching
to a different desktop, and that's fine and good.

The problem is when they:
[a] bad-mouth Unity and tell others it's useless rubbish (i.e.,
projecting their experiences or preferences onto others)
[b] blame Ubuntu for removing GNOME 2, when it wasn't Ubuntu's fault
(i.e. misplace the blame & fail to realise that Ubuntu had no choice,
that the GNOME Project killed its own child in favour of the new baby)
[c] can't find a new desktop they like and complain that Ubuntu isn't
democratic (it never was, but if someone's a bit inflexible and can
only cope with a single UI, it's not the distributor's fault.)

The one that makes me particularly sad is when people try Unity, hate
it, switch to GNOME 3 Shell and like it and then use it to bad-mouth
Unity. I am sure GNOME Shell is fine - I can use it, I just don't like
it much. But Unity is more like GNOME 2 than GNOME Shell is. If Ubuntu
had gone with GNOME Shell, then it would have been an even bigger
change and I am absolutely certain that those people would have
complained about it even more! But, no, instead, they blame Ubuntu for
a UI that they just happen not to like and say that they are leaving
Ubuntu, that's it's turned to rubbish, etc. etc.

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Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Avi Greenbury]

Barry Drake wrote:

> On 03/12/11 04:15, Liam Proven wrote:
> > I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone
> > knows is Windows, they're lost.
> 
> In a recent post, Paula said exactly the opposite - and she's working 
> with Windows folk at FossBox on a day to day basis.
> 

I think we (the Ubuntu community) massively overplay the standardisation
in ability and expectations of a Windows user. I don't see why we seem
to feel that Linux needs umpteen window managers to satisfy all its
users (which it clearly does) but Windows users have only ever wanted
the Windows 2000 interface and are completely stumped as soon as the
start menu is at the top.

-- 
Avi

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Colin Law]

On 2 December 2011 23:36, Paul Tansom  wrote:
> ...
>
> I want to add parameters to the launcher icon, or add my own application to 
> the
> launcher (I really must find the configuration file to do this), but this
> doesn't seem possible in an easy manner yet. If the application isn't 
> available
> through the dash then you can't drag it on (I have a scrip to start JTides 
> that
> I'd like to add), and if it is but you want to start with specific parameters
> you can't (I want to start XTides with Portsmouth as the default location 
> using
> command line options).

Have a look at [1] for suggestions on how to create custom items on
the launcher.  Read right through as there are a number of options.
Also [2] in particular for how to create quicklists in launchers so
you can right click and get a selection of things to run.  I use this
to allow right click on the terminal launcher which then gives me a
list of all my servers which I can ssh into.

Colin

[1] 
http://askubuntu.com/questions/13758/how-can-i-edit-create-new-launcher-items-in-unity-by-hand
[2] http://www.webupd8.org/2011/04/things-to-tweak-fix-after-installing.html

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 03/12/11 04:15, Liam Proven wrote:
I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone knows 
is Windows, they're lost.


In a recent post, Paula said exactly the opposite - and she's working 
with Windows folk at FossBox on a day to day basis.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Liam Proven]

On 2 December 2011 12:19, Kris Douglas  wrote:
> On 2 December 2011 10:36, Colin Law  wrote:
>> On 2 December 2011 10:27, Kris Douglas  wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> I have found myself leaving the Unity interface, which is completely
>>> anti-developer, and moved to XFCE, which is providing me with
>>> everything I need and more to cope with my system.
>>>
>>> I have found that the complete lack of window management for multiple
>>> monitors
>>
>> Can you explain what is missing in the multiple monitor case?
>
> The fact that you manage all of your windows from one bar. I often
> find myself working with over 30 windows open, and managing them all
> from an oversized scrolling image list it's not helpful at all.
>
> It's much more logical to have one window list for each screen.

Aaaargh. I *hated* that in GNOME 2. It is my /computer's/ job to
remember what window is on what monitor, not mine! If I have to manage
2 lists, that forces /me/ to remember what window I left where.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Liam Proven]

On 2 December 2011 11:58, paul sutton  wrote:
>
> I am sure if you got to Microsoft or Apple or any other BIG player you
> get a fast response.

Erm. I'm not sure here, so I am asking: you /are/ making a joke here,
aren't you?

If not: have you ever actually tried to report a bug or get help with
a serious problem from either company?

Apple is better. MS is terrible. Even its own site's search engine is
so bad for searching its support site that it's far better to use a
Google site-specific search.

> This is the business world i guess people want a
> quick response.

That's what you go to resellers for.

I speak as someone who's been many a reseller's alpha geek over the
last 20+ years... I was the poor sod at whose desk the buck stopped.
MICROS~1 were never any help at all.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Liam Proven]

On 2 December 2011 11:30, Simon Greenwood  wrote:
>
> For my 2p worth, I'm happy with Unity as I like the paradigm of the GUI,
> having returned to Linux after many years of OS X.

I think it is easier if you have Mac experience. If all someone knows
is Windows, they're lost.

> The only issues I see
> within Ubuntu are Compiz as a CPU hog

Not noticed that...

>  and a very slow start time on my
> desktop machine which seems to be caused by ubuntuone-client.

Oh my yes. But then it did that under GNOME 2, as well. I've just
removed it - it locks my 5000+MHz dual-core machine with 4G of RAM
solid for 10min at a time sometimes. It's /intolerably/ slow. I never
use it; Dropbox works better for me, I'm afraid.

> There's no doubt that Unity has split the Ubuntu userbase considerably, but
> the great thing is of course that there are other directions for the desktop
> such as Mint or Xubuntu or Lubuntu  - I have to say what I've seen of Gnome
> 3 is awful so far, and given Xubuntu or Lubuntu I would end up customising
> it to look and act not unlike Unity - perhaps not so much with Zeigeist and
> the other background enhancements, but with a toolbar based UI - but that's
> the fun of it.

I agree!

I spent weeks trying to get GNOME 2 working with vertical panels. It
never worked right. I sort of bodged something usable between a
rearranged top panel and ADeskBar on my right monitor for
task-switching. It was ugly and kludgy but it worked.

Unity is a breeze, a breath of fresh air by comparison. Remarkably
smooth and polished for such a young product.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Liam Proven]

On 2 December 2011 10:27, Kris Douglas  wrote:

> I have found that the complete lack of window management for multiple
> monitors

I am using dual 21" monitors with a 3200*1200 desktop. Unity works
very well indeed in this setup, with 2 top panels with different sets
of menus in them - so I am better off than I am on a single-screen
system.

The window management is just fine and I find the virtual desktop
support better and easier than it was with GNOME 2.

I am not saying that it is perfect or that everyone should love it,
but your sweeping generalisation that there is "a complete lack of
window management" is simply not true. You may not like how it works -
that's fine, that's your privilege. But it does handle multiple
montors, very well and /far/ better than GNOME 3 does.

GNOME 3 gives me one huge top panel, which does nothing on the right
screen, a sort of ghost of part of a panel on the bottom for
notifications, and leaves the virtual-desktop picker on my left
monitor so that it floats in the middle of my screens. It's a complete
mess on a multi-monitor system, whereas I am /far/ happier with Unity
on this setup than I ever was with GNOME 2.

> and the horrific memory leaks

No problems here. Performance and stability are excellent, as good as
any previous release - and I have run every single release of Ubuntu
there has ever been. I was watching www.no-name-yet.com before it came
out, waiting for the release.

> people not using it. The icon-based window management works great for
> home users until you open more than one of something, then you have no
> idea what is what.

It's absolutely fine for me. I routinely have 3 or more Firefox
windows, 2 or 3 terminals, Chrome, a few Pidgin windows and
LibreOffice Writer or MS Word 97 under WINE - or both. Plus VirtualBox
with a copy of TinyXP in it. All works smoothly most of the time.
VirtualBox seamless mode causes a bit of confusion at Windows shutdown
time occasionally and it took me a while to get the hang of Pidgin
having 2 main menus, depending on whether a chat window or the buddy
list have focus - but now it's fine.

> Finally, I can have my PC on for upwards of 3
> weeks, it would crash after a few days on Unity, but this machine has
> been on for about 3 weeks now with no memory or performance problems.

Never had a single Unity crash on any of my 3 machines yet.

> There is something just not quite there with Unity, I'm sure it will
> get there but the Ubuntu developers have to remember if they scare all
> their users away with very "beta" software, they will not easily come
> back. Honestly, if I hadn't already installed Ubuntu on my machine I
> would have switched to Mint, but I decided to try installing Xubuntu
> packages from the repo, haven't regretted it yet.

I'm sorry to hear you're having bad experiences, but I assure you,
they are not universal.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Tony Pursell]

On 2 December 2011 23:36, Paul Tansom  wrote:

> ** Alan Pope  [2011-12-02 11:03]:
> > On 01/12/11 23:52, thegeeksquad...@ymail.com wrote:
> > >Is Ubuntu going in the wrong direction?
> >
> > I personally don't believe so, no. I personally think it's going in
> > exactly the _right_ direction, but some people seem obsessed by
> > yesterday, today and tomorrow and not next year or next decade.
>
> I agree, I think in the longer term this will probably be good. I certainly
> prefer Unity to Gnome Shell (with the proviso that this is based on reading
> about both, but only having used Unity so far!). My main gripe is that it
> has
> been rushed out as the primary desktop when it is so painfully unfinished.
> Things I want to do just aren't easy yet and force me to the command line
> and
> Google (this feels very last millenium Linux!), and some of the changes
> I'm not
> keen on I could easily adjust if there were configuration options for them.
>
> A few examples:
>
>
You can use the Ubuntu Unity Plugin options in CompizConfig Settings
Manager to alter how the Launcher hides/reveals.  You will probably have to
install CompizConfig Settings Manager.  Its not installed by default as far
as I know, and I think that is because it is dangerous to change some of
the other features with Unity running.

There is also a GUI being developed for creating .desktop files as used in
the Launcher, etc,  For now, there is some stuff around, particularly on
AskUbuntu, which describes how they are put together.

Tony
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Paul Tansom]

** Alan Pope  [2011-12-02 11:03]:
> On 01/12/11 23:52, thegeeksquad...@ymail.com wrote:
> >Is Ubuntu going in the wrong direction?
> 
> I personally don't believe so, no. I personally think it's going in
> exactly the _right_ direction, but some people seem obsessed by
> yesterday, today and tomorrow and not next year or next decade.

I agree, I think in the longer term this will probably be good. I certainly
prefer Unity to Gnome Shell (with the proviso that this is based on reading
about both, but only having used Unity so far!). My main gripe is that it has
been rushed out as the primary desktop when it is so painfully unfinished.
Things I want to do just aren't easy yet and force me to the command line and
Google (this feels very last millenium Linux!), and some of the changes I'm not
keen on I could easily adjust if there were configuration options for them.

A few examples:

The launcher pops out from the left when I want to bookmark a web page. I do
this by dragging it onto the bookmarks sidebar in Firefox because I like to
categories them and this is the easiest way to do it quickly. Unfortunately it
gets covered by the launcher and I have to reduce the size of the Firefox
window to drag it across and then maximise again. If I could configure it to
only pop out if I push the mouse to the side edge that would solve the problem.

I've got too many icons on my launcher and would like to categorise them into
sub groups that pop out sideways when clicked (much like the OS/2 Warp button
bar from the 1990s!), this isn't and option and I don't think it is likely to
be sadly. I may be able to do something if I can get my head around writing
lenses, but I haven't found any useful documentation yet. Choosing an
application from the launcher is not easy when they are bunched up at the
bottom.

I'd like to have the menus show all the time as I find myself with what I
describe as the "Unity twitch". I move the mouse up to the top to get at a
menu, but as I can't see where it is I don't hit my target straight away and
have to move the mouse sideways to get the right one once I can actually see
it.

I want to add parameters to the launcher icon, or add my own application to the
launcher (I really must find the configuration file to do this), but this
doesn't seem possible in an easy manner yet. If the application isn't available
through the dash then you can't drag it on (I have a scrip to start JTides that
I'd like to add), and if it is but you want to start with specific parameters
you can't (I want to start XTides with Portsmouth as the default location using
command line options).

There are others, but I won't go on. The main thing that I don't see getting
fixed to my liking is the move of the menus to the top of the screen. I've read
the Mac justifications about why this is good and half seen the point, but in
use it really isn't nice. For a start it kills mouse over focus which I used
extensively to have a small window open with reference data in and type into
the background window that was maximised. I've got past this one, all be it I'm
still annoyed when I'm resizing windows to achieve similar results, but the
hassle of working on a small window at the bottom right and having to move the
mouse all the way up to the top left and back to use a menu item is just plain
silly. The concept may have worked when Mac had small screens, but with the
size of modern screens it isn't so much fun - and you could possibly argue that
it isn't good for RSI (or are bigger movements better than smaller ones?).


I'm confident it will get there (mostly), but if I wasn't happy with Ubuntu on
the server (no GUI!) and preferring to stick with it on the desktop I'd likely
be looking around at alternatives. It seems a shame to lose people because
they've upgraded and found themselves using what is basically a development
release. Perhaps the LTS and other 6 monthly releases should be named
separately. Then it would be clearer that in between releases can be somewhat
experimental in many ways and more people would stick to the LTS versions.

As it is I'm more inclined to try to learn about lenses, etc. and see if I can
'fix' things without actually moving distro.

** end quote [Alan Pope]

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

That's the only bit I need really though. Permission to use the logo
alongside my own marketing material so that people recognise I'm offering
more than windows support.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Paul Tansom  wrote:

> ** Gareth France  [2011-12-02 12:35]:
> > I have also now applied to the partner program. My problem has been that
> I
> > can't even find someone in Canonical to tell me what I should be doing or
> > applying to. 2 email pasted below.
> ** end quote [Gareth France]
>
> I applied for the partner program a year or so back and got firmly told to
> go
> away and try the market place which wasn't even close to what I was after
> or
> described in my application. The market place is very much just somewhere
> to
> advertise to people who already have an interest in Ubuntu. The impression
> I
> got was that I was too small, as a one person company, to be worth
> bothering
> about. As a result, although I continue to use Ubuntu as well as Debian, I
> generally don't push the branding as I'm not in a position to feel
> comfortable
> claiming to be a Ubuntu reseller or support provider. I did get the feeling
> that by providing support rather than simply shifting boxes in quantity and
> reselling Canonical support I was to some extent stepping on their toes!
> Having
> seen the reference to the trademark license I may try that as getting me
> half
> way towards what I was looking for.
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Paul Tansom]

** Gareth France  [2011-12-02 12:35]:
> I have also now applied to the partner program. My problem has been that I
> can't even find someone in Canonical to tell me what I should be doing or
> applying to. 2 email pasted below.
** end quote [Gareth France]

I applied for the partner program a year or so back and got firmly told to go
away and try the market place which wasn't even close to what I was after or
described in my application. The market place is very much just somewhere to
advertise to people who already have an interest in Ubuntu. The impression I
got was that I was too small, as a one person company, to be worth bothering
about. As a result, although I continue to use Ubuntu as well as Debian, I
generally don't push the branding as I'm not in a position to feel comfortable
claiming to be a Ubuntu reseller or support provider. I did get the feeling
that by providing support rather than simply shifting boxes in quantity and
reselling Canonical support I was to some extent stepping on their toes! Having
seen the reference to the trademark license I may try that as getting me half
way towards what I was looking for.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction? - posters

[paul sutton]

On 02/12/11 21:43, Barry Drake wrote:
> On 02/12/11 21:40, Andres wrote:
>> Hi,thanks for the link but in
>> Alt+SysRq+R+S+E+I+U+B
>> but what is the SysRq button? is it in all keyboards?
>>
>
> Normally it is the Prt Scr button - t is labelled Prt Scr / SysRq on
> most keyboards.
>
>
actually that is a good point,  on some keyboards its just prt-scr so I
may alter the how to to reflect this.

Paul

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction? - posters

[Andres]

On -10/01/37 20:59, Colin Law wrote:

On 2 December 2011 21:40, Andres  wrote:

On -10/01/37 20:59, paul sutton wrote:



Ok,  this is what i created myself

http://www.zleap.net/portfolio.html

first item in the list, if someone has time and can help me by making
improvements then that would be great.  I under stand that people are
busy.

Paul





Hi,thanks for the link but in
Alt+SysRq+R+S+E+I+U+B
but what is the SysRq button? is it in all keyboards?

On a conventional PC keyboard it is the Print Screen key.

Colin



Thanks Colin and Barry

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction? - posters

[Colin Law]

On 2 December 2011 21:40, Andres  wrote:
> On -10/01/37 20:59, paul sutton wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Ok,  this is what i created myself
>>
>> http://www.zleap.net/portfolio.html
>>
>> first item in the list, if someone has time and can help me by making
>> improvements then that would be great.  I under stand that people are
>> busy.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hi,thanks for the link but in
> Alt+SysRq+R+S+E+I+U+B
> but what is the SysRq button? is it in all keyboards?

On a conventional PC keyboard it is the Print Screen key.

Colin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction? - posters

[Barry Drake]

On 02/12/11 21:40, Andres wrote:

Hi,thanks for the link but in
Alt+SysRq+R+S+E+I+U+B
but what is the SysRq button? is it in all keyboards?



Normally it is the Prt Scr button - t is labelled Prt Scr / SysRq on 
most keyboards.



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction? - posters

[Andres]

On -10/01/37 20:59, paul sutton wrote:



Ok,  this is what i created myself

http://www.zleap.net/portfolio.html

first item in the list, if someone has time and can help me by making
improvements then that would be great.  I under stand that people are busy.

Paul






Hi,thanks for the link but in
Alt+SysRq+R+S+E+I+U+B
but what is the SysRq button? is it in all keyboards?

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Sean Miller]

Personally I think Unity is fairly awful on the desktop, but - let's face
it - the future of computing is not the desktop it's mobile devices,
tablets etc. etc.

Ubuntu is positioning itself so that when the next generation of machines
come around it'll be right up there with Windows etc. - if Ubuntu is seen
as "the norm" in 5 years then the decision will have been correct.

In the meantime, fair play to Canonical etc. in being brave and not
sticking to "what we knew" in order to appease us metaphorical "old fogies
set in their ways"...

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Dave Morley]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/12/11 12:20, Gareth France wrote:
> 
> I just can't imagine that a single person's mind will be changed
> by this thread. If the original post is taken at face value then
> it's clear that a strong opinion has already been formed.
> 
> 
> Absolutely, the only person who can change their mind is them, in
> their own time, on their own.
> 
> 
Oh my look at that, I hate to disagree with you all nay sayers but erm
http://www.linuxjournal.com/slideshow/readers-choice-2011  that'll be
readers voting :)

- -- 
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I love my job :)
http://www.ubuntu.com
http://www.canonical.com
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Ron Rhodes]

On 02/12/11 17:45, Barry Drake wrote:
Snip

Granted it's awkward to edit, but anyhow, I've added you to it. Often
wondered if anybody actually finds it though. Same with the 'barebones'
site. Be nice if there were links from the Ubuntu site that were
prominent enough. I can't help there though.

Snip

Barry, Can you provide a link to the "barebones site" please.
Regards, Ron.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

Are you trying to insinuate something? lol

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 02/12/11 17:44, Gareth France wrote:
>
>> Lol oh dear, you've changed the name of my business by the looks of it.
>> I'm not sure what the P stands for.
>>
>
> Oops .  Better now!  Sorry.  CPS is Crown Prosecution service   I
> hope it wasn't a Freudian slip.
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>
> --
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> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 02/12/11 17:44, Gareth France wrote:
Lol oh dear, you've changed the name of my business by the looks of 
it. I'm not sure what the P stands for.


Oops .  Better now!  Sorry.  CPS is Crown Prosecution service   
I hope it wasn't a Freudian slip.


Regards,Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
http://ubuntuadverts.org/


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

The ONLY entry I have once I click show editing options is logout. Thanks
for correcting it though.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 02/12/11 17:22, Gareth France wrote:
>
>> I did log in, it gave me an empty editing tools bar and no cursor. It was
>> like viewing the page with a little less real estate!
>>
>
> Granted it's awkward to edit, but anyhow, I've added you to it.  Often
> wondered if anybody actually finds it though.  Same with the 'barebones'
> site.  Be nice if there were links from the Ubuntu site that were prominent
> enough.  I can't help there though.
>
> When you said you saw the empty editing tools bar, you click on the bottom
> right (show editing options), then the bottom left which is labelled 'edit'
> and that takes you to an edit screen.  You have to edit script though, not
> wysiwyg.
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>
-- 
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 02/12/11 17:22, Gareth France wrote:
I did log in, it gave me an empty editing tools bar and no cursor. It 
was like viewing the page with a little less real estate!


Granted it's awkward to edit, but anyhow, I've added you to it.  Often 
wondered if anybody actually finds it though.  Same with the 'barebones' 
site.  Be nice if there were links from the Ubuntu site that were 
prominent enough.  I can't help there though.


When you said you saw the empty editing tools bar, you click on the 
bottom right (show editing options), then the bottom left which is 
labelled 'edit' and that takes you to an edit screen.  You have to edit 
script though, not wysiwyg.


Regards,Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
http://ubuntuadverts.org/


--
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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

Lol oh dear, you've changed the name of my business by the looks of it. I'm
not sure what the P stands for.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 02/12/11 17:11, Gareth France wrote:
>
>> I can see you were the last to edit the pre-installed wiki but I don't
>> know how. It didn't seemto like me for some reason.
>>
>
> You have to log in first   (wiki page top right), then an edit like
> appears at the bottom of the page.  But if you send me what you want in
> each of the fields, I'll do it for you.
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>
-- 
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

I did log in, it gave me an empty editing tools bar and no cursor. It was
like viewing the page with a little less real estate!

Company name CTS, website www.cliftonts.co.uk,
Without windows: yes
Desktops: yes
Laptops: yes
Netbooks: yes
A mix of new and second user machines.

Thanks, you're a star!

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 02/12/11 17:02, Gareth France wrote:
>
>> I'll look into that wiki, never heard of it. Of course you'll never get
>> an instant response to a new problem but the number of times I have posted
>> in ubuntuforums and not had any reply or it's just suddenly tailed off, I
>> wouuld hope a paid for subscription would put the effort in to find a
>> solution.
>>
>
> The wiki is at: 
> https://help.ubuntu.com/**community/UbuntuPre-installedand
>  you can log in and edit it yourself if you are a member of the Ubuntu
> community.  If you haven't joined yet, tell me what you want on the wiki
> and I'll add it. The forums are a bit hit and miss.  The live chat areas
> are a lot better, but personally I avoid live-chat which is why you don't
> often see me on #ubuntu or anywhere else.  I know it's bad form!  The
> mailing lists are usually very responsive.
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>
-- 
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 02/12/11 17:11, Gareth France wrote:
I can see you were the last to edit the pre-installed wiki but I don't 
know how. It didn't seemto like me for some reason.


You have to log in first   (wiki page top right), then an edit like 
appears at the bottom of the page.  But if you send me what you want in 
each of the fields, I'll do it for you.


Regards,Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
http://ubuntuadverts.org/


--
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 02/12/11 17:02, Gareth France wrote:
I'll look into that wiki, never heard of it. Of course you'll never 
get an instant response to a new problem but the number of times I 
have posted in ubuntuforums and not had any reply or it's just 
suddenly tailed off, I wouuld hope a paid for subscription would put 
the effort in to find a solution.


The wiki is at: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuPre-installed 
and you can log in and edit it yourself if you are a member of the 
Ubuntu community.  If you haven't joined yet, tell me what you want on 
the wiki and I'll add it. The forums are a bit hit and miss.  The live 
chat areas are a lot better, but personally I avoid live-chat which is 
why you don't often see me on #ubuntu or anywhere else.  I know it's bad 
form!  The mailing lists are usually very responsive.


Regards,Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
http://ubuntuadverts.org/


--
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

I can see you were the last to edit the pre-installed wiki but I don't know
how. It didn't seemto like me for some reason.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 02/12/11 15:57, Gareth France wrote:
>
>> Very true, I'm quite new here so I don't really know anyone yet. Oddly
>> enough everyone I'm getting to know seems to be called Alan!! I value the
>> support community a lot but have found sometimes a question gets asked and
>> goes unsolved, like the printer authentication issue being discussed on
>> here today. I was wondering if paying Canonical for support might provide
>> prompt results in these cases. Or even might it be worth developing my own
>> knowledgebase as I go?
>>
>
> Yes - I was in London last Spring, an felt quite out of place as a Barry
> with no less than three Alans .  but they assured me that you don't
> have to be called Alan to join the community.
>
> As I've never been on the receiving end of Canonical support, I have no
> idea what you get for your money.  I'm sure Alan Bell and Alan Lord will be
> able to tell you.  I just wonder if their answers might be different from
> one another :-D
>
> I think all of us develop our knowledgebase in different ways.  You might
> think about networking with some of the other suppliers that are on the
> 'Ubuntu pre-installed' wiki.  BTW - if you are not on there, do something
> about it.  I recently bought a pre-installed used netbook from one of them,
> and we both increased our knowledgebase by working together to solve a
> problem on it.  The increase of knowledge was exponential!  I have since
> bought another computer from the same guy, so obviousl I considered the
> problem well handled.
>
> The thing is, you get a problem that no-one else has encountered, and you
> are not going to get an instant answer, even in you pay a support firm an
> absolute fortune.
>
> Kind regards,Barry.
>
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>
-- 
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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Alan Lord (News)]

On 02/12/11 16:29, Barry Drake wrote:

Yes - I was in London last Spring, an felt quite out of place as a Barry
with no less than three Alans .  but they assured me that you don't
have to be called Alan to join the community.


This is true. But being Alan is just cool.


As I've never been on the receiving end of Canonical support, I have no
idea what you get for your money.  I'm sure Alan Bell and Alan Lord will
be able to tell you.  I just wonder if their answers might be different
from one another :-D


I've not been on the receiving end of their support either so can't 
really comment on it's efficacy. I didn't think much of their partner 
programme - it never really did anything - but I think that has changed 
since we were in it...


Al (my nickname is also my initials :-) )


--
Libertus Solutions
http://www.libertus.co.uk


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

Already done, now fingers crossed I'll get added.
Thanks

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Tony Pursell 
wrote:

>
>
> On 2 December 2011 12:52, Gareth France  wrote:
>
>> So how do I go about getting on this list then?
>
>
> If you go to
>
> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/marketplace/
>
> there is a link at the bottom of the page (but I don't know where it will
> lead you!)
>
> Also, a thought I've had, is you might consider talking to other people on
> that list doing the same thing as you in some other part of the UK(i.e. you
> won't be competing with them).
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Alan Bell  wrote:
>>
>>> I meant off list, but never mind :)
>>> you are probably better off just getting on the marketplace rather than
>>> being a Canonical partner
>>> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/**marketplace/europe/
>>>
>>> and yes, it may take some messing to get put on that list I need to poke
>>> someone about it.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> The Open Learning Centre is rebranding, find out about our new name and
>>> look at http://libertus.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>>
>>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
>
-- 
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
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https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

I'll look into that wiki, never heard of it. Of course you'll never get an
instant response to a new problem but the number of times I have posted in
ubuntuforums and not had any reply or it's just suddenly tailed off, I
wouuld hope a paid for subscription would put the effort in to find a
solution.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 02/12/11 15:57, Gareth France wrote:
>
>> Very true, I'm quite new here so I don't really know anyone yet. Oddly
>> enough everyone I'm getting to know seems to be called Alan!! I value the
>> support community a lot but have found sometimes a question gets asked and
>> goes unsolved, like the printer authentication issue being discussed on
>> here today. I was wondering if paying Canonical for support might provide
>> prompt results in these cases. Or even might it be worth developing my own
>> knowledgebase as I go?
>>
>
> Yes - I was in London last Spring, an felt quite out of place as a Barry
> with no less than three Alans .  but they assured me that you don't
> have to be called Alan to join the community.
>
> As I've never been on the receiving end of Canonical support, I have no
> idea what you get for your money.  I'm sure Alan Bell and Alan Lord will be
> able to tell you.  I just wonder if their answers might be different from
> one another :-D
>
> I think all of us develop our knowledgebase in different ways.  You might
> think about networking with some of the other suppliers that are on the
> 'Ubuntu pre-installed' wiki.  BTW - if you are not on there, do something
> about it.  I recently bought a pre-installed used netbook from one of them,
> and we both increased our knowledgebase by working together to solve a
> problem on it.  The increase of knowledge was exponential!  I have since
> bought another computer from the same guy, so obviousl I considered the
> problem well handled.
>
> The thing is, you get a problem that no-one else has encountered, and you
> are not going to get an instant answer, even in you pay a support firm an
> absolute fortune.
>
> Kind regards,Barry.
>
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>
-- 
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Tony Pursell]

On 2 December 2011 12:52, Gareth France  wrote:

> So how do I go about getting on this list then?


If you go to

http://webapps.ubuntu.com/marketplace/

there is a link at the bottom of the page (but I don't know where it will
lead you!)

Also, a thought I've had, is you might consider talking to other people on
that list doing the same thing as you in some other part of the UK(i.e. you
won't be competing with them).

Tony



>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Alan Bell  wrote:
>
>> I meant off list, but never mind :)
>> you are probably better off just getting on the marketplace rather than
>> being a Canonical partner
>> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/**marketplace/europe/
>>
>> and yes, it may take some messing to get put on that list I need to poke
>> someone about it.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Open Learning Centre is rebranding, find out about our new name and
>> look at http://libertus.co.uk
>>
>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
>
-- 
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 02/12/11 15:57, Gareth France wrote:
Very true, I'm quite new here so I don't really know anyone yet. Oddly 
enough everyone I'm getting to know seems to be called Alan!! I value 
the support community a lot but have found sometimes a question gets 
asked and goes unsolved, like the printer authentication issue being 
discussed on here today. I was wondering if paying Canonical for 
support might provide prompt results in these cases. Or even might it 
be worth developing my own knowledgebase as I go?


Yes - I was in London last Spring, an felt quite out of place as a Barry 
with no less than three Alans .  but they assured me that you don't 
have to be called Alan to join the community.


As I've never been on the receiving end of Canonical support, I have no 
idea what you get for your money.  I'm sure Alan Bell and Alan Lord will 
be able to tell you.  I just wonder if their answers might be different 
from one another :-D


I think all of us develop our knowledgebase in different ways.  You 
might think about networking with some of the other suppliers that are 
on the 'Ubuntu pre-installed' wiki.  BTW - if you are not on there, do 
something about it.  I recently bought a pre-installed used netbook from 
one of them, and we both increased our knowledgebase by working together 
to solve a problem on it.  The increase of knowledge was exponential!  I 
have since bought another computer from the same guy, so obviousl I 
considered the problem well handled.


The thing is, you get a problem that no-one else has encountered, and 
you are not going to get an instant answer, even in you pay a support 
firm an absolute fortune.


Kind regards,Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
http://ubuntuadverts.org/


--
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

That's a good idea but I don't think it's right for everyone, and if it was
the web would be flooded with blogs about ubuntu! So I'll leave that to
those who are good at it and stick to the support I think. Glad to know
you're doing it though they can be invaluable.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Kris Douglas  wrote:

> On 2 December 2011 15:57, Gareth France  wrote:
> > Very true, I'm quite new here so I don't really know anyone yet. Oddly
> > enough everyone I'm getting to know seems to be called Alan!! I value the
> > support community a lot but have found sometimes a question gets asked
> and
> > goes unsolved, like the printer authentication issue being discussed on
> here
> > today. I was wondering if paying Canonical for support might provide
> prompt
> > results in these cases. Or even might it be worth developing my own
> > knowledgebase as I go?
>
> I am starting to put everything I learn into a blog format, I have
> about 30 unpublished notes and tutorials for stuff on Ubuntu that I
> have come across.
>
>
> --
> Regards, Kris Douglas.
>  www.krisd.eu
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[scoundrel50a]

Oh ok, definitely.I'll e-mail you later to chat about it..

thank you

John

On 02/12/11 15:38, Gareth France wrote:
That's convenient, I'm in South Bucks so not too far. Let me know if 
you ever fancy meeting up for a coffee or whatever and we'll see if 
wecan crack it.


On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:35 PM, scoundrel50a > wrote:


Hi I live in London.


On 02/12/2011 15:26, Gareth France wrote:

Where are you based? Maybe I can help

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:23 PM, scoundrel50a
mailto:scoundrel...@gmail.com>> wrote:

If I could find somebody to teach me how to run Ubuntu
properly, and be able to use the Terminal to fix problems, I
would gladly help in support, but I just dont know enough






On 02/12/2011 15:18, Gareth France wrote:

I don't want to pick on them and I have to say I'm
considering the merits of paying for one of their support
subscriptions to aid my business. Would having access to
their knowledgebase and someone at the end of the phone be a
useful asset alongside the free community support? I suppose
I'll only find out by giving it a go.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Barry Drake
mailto:ubuntu-advertis...@gmx.com>> wrote:

On 02/12/11 14:32, scoundrel50a wrote:

But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd)
in Canonical, has a 3 day waiting for non important
answers, so you could be needing help, ask a
question, it could take up to three days to answer


Oh, and Microsoft offers better?  Please.  The only way
people used to get support was from the trader from whom
they bought the product.  Computer stores made their
money because they offered good support.  But they paid
dearly for their knowledge-base because they had to buy
training in.  You can do the same - or you can build it
for yourself within the community along with the rest of
us.  Personally, I've never found a support-base as good
as when I joined the Ubuntu community (and the local
Linux user group), and I've tried to offer whatever I
can in return.  There's many a good trader who relies on
the community and the many excellent wiki pages to build
corporate knowledge, so why pick on Canonical?

Regards,Barry.

-- 
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.

http://ubuntuadverts.org/



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Kris Douglas]

On 2 December 2011 15:57, Gareth France  wrote:
> Very true, I'm quite new here so I don't really know anyone yet. Oddly
> enough everyone I'm getting to know seems to be called Alan!! I value the
> support community a lot but have found sometimes a question gets asked and
> goes unsolved, like the printer authentication issue being discussed on here
> today. I was wondering if paying Canonical for support might provide prompt
> results in these cases. Or even might it be worth developing my own
> knowledgebase as I go?

I am starting to put everything I learn into a blog format, I have
about 30 unpublished notes and tutorials for stuff on Ubuntu that I
have come across.


-- 
Regards, Kris Douglas.
 www.krisd.eu

-- 
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

Very true, I'm quite new here so I don't really know anyone yet. Oddly
enough everyone I'm getting to know seems to be called Alan!! I value the
support community a lot but have found sometimes a question gets asked and
goes unsolved, like the printer authentication issue being discussed on
here today. I was wondering if paying Canonical for support might provide
prompt results in these cases. Or even might it be worth developing my own
knowledgebase as I go?

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 02/12/11 15:18, Gareth France wrote:
>
>> I don't want to pick on them and I have to say I'm considering the merits
>> of paying for one of their support subscriptions to aid my business. Would
>> having access to their knowledgebase and someone at the end of the phone be
>> a useful asset alongside the free community support? I suppose I'll only
>> find out by giving it a go.
>>
>
> Well, you might find it worthwhile.  Back in the days before I retired, my
> wife and I ran a heating business for years.  At one time, we were local
> service agents for several boiler and heater manufacturers in the
> industrial sector.  I had full access to their service manager and often,
> their R&D chief.  More often than not, I had to work out the solution on
> their behalf as we had encountered a new problem.  This sharing of
> experience and knowledge is exactly what I find and what I value in this
> community.  Of course the main difference was that I was getting paid!
>
> It's my guess that you could get better and far cheaper support here than
> anywhere else - and some of us ARE at the other end of a phone!!!
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>
-- 
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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 02/12/11 15:18, Gareth France wrote:
I don't want to pick on them and I have to say I'm considering the 
merits of paying for one of their support subscriptions to aid my 
business. Would having access to their knowledgebase and someone at 
the end of the phone be a useful asset alongside the free community 
support? I suppose I'll only find out by giving it a go.


Well, you might find it worthwhile.  Back in the days before I retired, 
my wife and I ran a heating business for years.  At one time, we were 
local service agents for several boiler and heater manufacturers in the 
industrial sector.  I had full access to their service manager and 
often, their R&D chief.  More often than not, I had to work out the 
solution on their behalf as we had encountered a new problem.  This 
sharing of experience and knowledge is exactly what I find and what I 
value in this community.  Of course the main difference was that I was 
getting paid!


It's my guess that you could get better and far cheaper support here 
than anywhere else - and some of us ARE at the other end of a phone!!!


Regards,Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
http://ubuntuadverts.org/


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

That's convenient, I'm in South Bucks so not too far. Let me know if you
ever fancy meeting up for a coffee or whatever and we'll see if wecan crack
it.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:35 PM, scoundrel50a  wrote:

>  Hi I live in London.
>
>
> On 02/12/2011 15:26, Gareth France wrote:
>
> Where are you based? Maybe I can help
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:23 PM, scoundrel50a wrote:
>
>>  If I could find somebody to teach me how to run Ubuntu properly, and be
>> able to use the Terminal to fix problems, I would gladly help in support,
>> but I just dont know enough
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02/12/2011 15:18, Gareth France wrote:
>>
>> I don't want to pick on them and I have to say I'm considering the merits
>> of paying for one of their support subscriptions to aid my business. Would
>> having access to their knowledgebase and someone at the end of the phone be
>> a useful asset alongside the free community support? I suppose I'll only
>> find out by giving it a go.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Barry Drake 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/12/11 14:32, scoundrel50a wrote:
>>>
 But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd) in Canonical, has a
 3 day waiting for non important answers, so you could be needing help, ask
 a question, it could take up to three days to answer

>>>
>>>  Oh, and Microsoft offers better?  Please.  The only way people used to
>>> get support was from the trader from whom they bought the product.
>>>  Computer stores made their money because they offered good support.  But
>>> they paid dearly for their knowledge-base because they had to buy training
>>> in.  You can do the same - or you can build it for yourself within the
>>> community along with the rest of us.  Personally, I've never found a
>>> support-base as good as when I joined the Ubuntu community (and the local
>>> Linux user group), and I've tried to offer whatever I can in return.
>>>  There's many a good trader who relies on the community and the many
>>> excellent wiki pages to build corporate knowledge, so why pick on Canonical?
>>>
>>> Regards,Barry.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
>>> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[scoundrel50a]

Hi I live in London.

On 02/12/2011 15:26, Gareth France wrote:

Where are you based? Maybe I can help

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:23 PM, scoundrel50a > wrote:


If I could find somebody to teach me how to run Ubuntu properly,
and be able to use the Terminal to fix problems, I would gladly
help in support, but I just dont know enough






On 02/12/2011 15:18, Gareth France wrote:

I don't want to pick on them and I have to say I'm considering
the merits of paying for one of their support subscriptions to
aid my business. Would having access to their knowledgebase and
someone at the end of the phone be a useful asset alongside the
free community support? I suppose I'll only find out by giving it
a go.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Barry Drake
mailto:ubuntu-advertis...@gmx.com>>
wrote:

On 02/12/11 14:32, scoundrel50a wrote:

But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd) in
Canonical, has a 3 day waiting for non important answers,
so you could be needing help, ask a question, it could
take up to three days to answer


Oh, and Microsoft offers better?  Please.  The only way
people used to get support was from the trader from whom they
bought the product.  Computer stores made their money because
they offered good support.  But they paid dearly for their
knowledge-base because they had to buy training in.  You can
do the same - or you can build it for yourself within the
community along with the rest of us.  Personally, I've never
found a support-base as good as when I joined the Ubuntu
community (and the local Linux user group), and I've tried to
offer whatever I can in return.  There's many a good trader
who relies on the community and the many excellent wiki pages
to build corporate knowledge, so why pick on Canonical?

Regards,Barry.

-- 
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.

http://ubuntuadverts.org/



-- 
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com 

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/







--
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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

Where are you based? Maybe I can help

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:23 PM, scoundrel50a  wrote:

>  If I could find somebody to teach me how to run Ubuntu properly, and be
> able to use the Terminal to fix problems, I would gladly help in support,
> but I just dont know enough
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 02/12/2011 15:18, Gareth France wrote:
>
> I don't want to pick on them and I have to say I'm considering the merits
> of paying for one of their support subscriptions to aid my business. Would
> having access to their knowledgebase and someone at the end of the phone be
> a useful asset alongside the free community support? I suppose I'll only
> find out by giving it a go.
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Barry Drake wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/11 14:32, scoundrel50a wrote:
>>
>>> But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd) in Canonical, has a 3
>>> day waiting for non important answers, so you could be needing help, ask a
>>> question, it could take up to three days to answer
>>>
>>
>>  Oh, and Microsoft offers better?  Please.  The only way people used to
>> get support was from the trader from whom they bought the product.
>>  Computer stores made their money because they offered good support.  But
>> they paid dearly for their knowledge-base because they had to buy training
>> in.  You can do the same - or you can build it for yourself within the
>> community along with the rest of us.  Personally, I've never found a
>> support-base as good as when I joined the Ubuntu community (and the local
>> Linux user group), and I've tried to offer whatever I can in return.
>>  There's many a good trader who relies on the community and the many
>> excellent wiki pages to build corporate knowledge, so why pick on Canonical?
>>
>> Regards,Barry.
>>
>> --
>> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
>> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
>
-- 
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[scoundrel50a]

If I could find somebody to teach me how to run Ubuntu properly, and be 
able to use the Terminal to fix problems, I would gladly help in 
support, but I just dont know enough






On 02/12/2011 15:18, Gareth France wrote:
I don't want to pick on them and I have to say I'm considering the 
merits of paying for one of their support subscriptions to aid my 
business. Would having access to their knowledgebase and someone at 
the end of the phone be a useful asset alongside the free community 
support? I suppose I'll only find out by giving it a go.


On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Barry Drake 
mailto:ubuntu-advertis...@gmx.com>> wrote:


On 02/12/11 14:32, scoundrel50a wrote:

But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd) in
Canonical, has a 3 day waiting for non important answers, so
you could be needing help, ask a question, it could take up to
three days to answer


Oh, and Microsoft offers better?  Please.  The only way people
used to get support was from the trader from whom they bought the
product.  Computer stores made their money because they offered
good support.  But they paid dearly for their knowledge-base
because they had to buy training in.  You can do the same - or you
can build it for yourself within the community along with the rest
of us.  Personally, I've never found a support-base as good as
when I joined the Ubuntu community (and the local Linux user
group), and I've tried to offer whatever I can in return.  There's
many a good trader who relies on the community and the many
excellent wiki pages to build corporate knowledge, so why pick on
Canonical?

Regards,Barry.

-- 
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.

http://ubuntuadverts.org/



-- 
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com 

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/






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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

I don't want to pick on them and I have to say I'm considering the merits
of paying for one of their support subscriptions to aid my business. Would
having access to their knowledgebase and someone at the end of the phone be
a useful asset alongside the free community support? I suppose I'll only
find out by giving it a go.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 02/12/11 14:32, scoundrel50a wrote:
>
>> But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd) in Canonical, has a 3
>> day waiting for non important answers, so you could be needing help, ask a
>> question, it could take up to three days to answer
>>
>
> Oh, and Microsoft offers better?  Please.  The only way people used to get
> support was from the trader from whom they bought the product.  Computer
> stores made their money because they offered good support.  But they paid
> dearly for their knowledge-base because they had to buy training in.  You
> can do the same - or you can build it for yourself within the community
> along with the rest of us.  Personally, I've never found a support-base as
> good as when I joined the Ubuntu community (and the local Linux user
> group), and I've tried to offer whatever I can in return.  There's many a
> good trader who relies on the community and the many excellent wiki pages
> to build corporate knowledge, so why pick on Canonical?
>
> Regards,Barry.
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>
-- 
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Barry Drake]

On 02/12/11 14:32, scoundrel50a wrote:
But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd) in Canonical, has a 
3 day waiting for non important answers, so you could be needing help, 
ask a question, it could take up to three days to answer


Oh, and Microsoft offers better?  Please.  The only way people used to 
get support was from the trader from whom they bought the product.  
Computer stores made their money because they offered good support.  But 
they paid dearly for their knowledge-base because they had to buy 
training in.  You can do the same - or you can build it for yourself 
within the community along with the rest of us.  Personally, I've never 
found a support-base as good as when I joined the Ubuntu community (and 
the local Linux user group), and I've tried to offer whatever I can in 
return.  There's many a good trader who relies on the community and the 
many excellent wiki pages to build corporate knowledge, so why pick on 
Canonical?


Regards,Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
http://ubuntuadverts.org/


--
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

Absolutely, my gripe was the fact that I was a little lost for a bit and
they don't seem at all keen to point people in the right direction. i have
no doubt though that the i's can be dotted and the t's crossed then I can
get on with doing what I do best.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Alan Bell  wrote:

> On 02/12/11 14:42, Simon Watson wrote:
>
>> Gareth,
>>
>> I do get the feeling that you haven't really planned ahead in setting up
>> your business. It would seem that you'd want to get this stuff sorted out
>> further in advance.
>>
>>  no, it is not unreasonable to expect some kind of response, but we
> shouldn't overlook that there have *been* various responses. If someone is
> setting up a small business trading in the Ubuntu ecosystem what you need
> to do is fill out the trademarks form and ask if they don't care about your
> use of the brand.
>
> https://forms.canonical.com/**trademark/
>
> Once you have a reply to this you can forget that Canonical exists, unless
> you want to pass them a juicy public sector or corporate deployment lead.
> They have no further interest in you, and you have no need of them.
>
> Trademark responses can be a bit slow. This is being looked into. The
> thing is not to ask other questions, the only thing you want from Canonical
> is confirmation that your use of the trademark is fine.
>
> Alan.
>
> --
> Libertus Solutionshttp://libertus.co.uk
>
>
>
> --
> The Open Learning Centre is rebranding, find out about our new name and
> look at http://libertus.co.uk
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**UKTeam/ 
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Alan Bell]

On 02/12/11 14:42, Simon Watson wrote:

Gareth,

I do get the feeling that you haven't really planned ahead in setting up your 
business. It would seem that you'd want to get this stuff sorted out further in 
advance.

no, it is not unreasonable to expect some kind of response, but we 
shouldn't overlook that there have *been* various responses. If someone 
is setting up a small business trading in the Ubuntu ecosystem what you 
need to do is fill out the trademarks form and ask if they don't care 
about your use of the brand.


https://forms.canonical.com/trademark/

Once you have a reply to this you can forget that Canonical exists, 
unless you want to pass them a juicy public sector or corporate 
deployment lead. They have no further interest in you, and you have no 
need of them.


Trademark responses can be a bit slow. This is being looked into. The 
thing is not to ask other questions, the only thing you want from 
Canonical is confirmation that your use of the trademark is fine.


Alan.

--
Libertus Solutionshttp://libertus.co.uk


--
The Open Learning Centre is rebranding, find out about our new name and look at 
http://libertus.co.uk


--
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Paula Graham]

On 02/12/11 10:59, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 01/12/11 23:52, thegeeksquad...@ymail.com wrote:
>> Is Ubuntu going in the wrong direction?
>
> I personally don't believe so, no. I personally think it's going in
> exactly the _right_ direction, but some people seem obsessed by
> yesterday, today and tomorrow and not next year or next decade.
>
>
We're still promoting Ubuntu with Unity as a desktop for general users
as the integration is hard to beat. At the moment, it's not 'just
working' but I hope it will 'just work' OOB again in 12.04 for general
desktop users. I think Unity is excellent for general users - and they
seem to love it, bugs and all! We're also still using Ubuntu on servers.

Personally, I've switched to Bodhi on my desktop because Unity is (a)
not working properly on any of my desktop computers and (b) it's not
nearly configurable enough for me and I find it irritating. I'll also
have to cancel my sub to Ubuntu One as I can't set it up it easily on
other distros.

I like the Englightenment desktop as it combines configurability,
lightness and a reasonable degree of eye-candy. It also means I can have
the same desktop on everything from my eePC to my Lenovo (rather than
xfce on some and Unity on others). I don't think that MATE will be the
future of computing - things are moving on and the question is probably
more 'how' than 'whether'.

On the downside, Bodhi needs quite a lot more tinkering but I think this
will be reduced when Bodhi based on 12.04 comes out - mostly it results
from running a mix of backported 10.04 apps with kernel 3.0 and new
Mozilla releases packaged to run on Ubuntu 10.04 Bodhi.

I'll have a look at 12.04 but think it's likely I'll stick with Bodhi
and Dropbox now for my own personal use but will continue to promote
Ubuntu for mainstream users.

Paula




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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

It is difficult to plan for things which seem inpenetratable, I didn't
anticipate this being an issue in the way it has. I didn't anticipate it
taking any more than asking a question and getting an answer within an
hour, after all it's only clarifying a simple point on a policy. And it's
something that would not be an issue were I peddling Microsoft products so
initially it didn't occur to me that it would be here.

It's something that I can work around either way but I can't work around
something until I know which direction to work in!

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Simon Watson wrote:

> Gareth,
>
> I do get the feeling that you haven't really planned ahead in setting up
> your business. It would seem that you'd want to get this stuff sorted out
> further in advance.
>
> Simon
> -Original Message-
> From: Gareth France 
> Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com
> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:40:09
> To: UK Ubuntu Talk
> Reply-To: UK Ubuntu Talk 
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Simon Watson]

Gareth,

I do get the feeling that you haven't really planned ahead in setting up your 
business. It would seem that you'd want to get this stuff sorted out further in 
advance.

Simon
-Original Message-
From: Gareth France 
Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:40:09 
To: UK Ubuntu Talk
Reply-To: UK Ubuntu Talk 
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

>
>
>  But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd) in Canonical, has a 3
> day waiting for non important answers, so you could be needing help, ask a
> question, it could take up to three days to answer, depending on what they
> class as a non important question, you answer it, and it could take another
> 3 days to get an answer with, and so you could be waiting weeks to get
> something done. If you are prepared for a long wait then its worth
> paying.
>

I have been waiting since 14th November for a response to queries which my
business hinges on. If I could pay £80 and get a 3 day turn around instead
then it's a bargain!
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[scoundrel50a]

On 02/12/11 14:08, Matthew Daubney wrote:

On 2 December 2011 14:04, Gareth France  wrote:

There NEEDS to be a quick response, even if that response is 'you have to
subscribe', 'you have to upgrade', 'you're supposed to look there'! The lack
of replies from Canonical is causing me major headaches.

  

Welcome to the business world :) I get this with suppliers everywhere,
from Supermicro to Myricom to Areca to Intel to Hitachi to Quantum and
so on and so forth. It's not something that ever surprises me.

-Matt Daubney



But that doesnt meant to say it should be the same with Ubuntu, and if 
we are talking about Apple, I have had a few problems with apple 
recently, and got things done within hours...I know now why apple 
charges so much, their after sales support is amazing.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[scoundrel50a]

On 02/12/11 13:55, Avi Greenbury wrote:

paul sutton wrote:


I am sure if you got to Microsoft or Apple or any other BIG player you
get a fast response.  This is the business world i guess people want a
quick response.

Only if you pay them for it; Canonical sell that sort of support
contract, too.

But that paid support (the one that costs £80 odd) in Canonical, has a 3 
day waiting for non important answers, so you could be needing help, ask 
a question, it could take up to three days to answer, depending on what 
they class as a non important question, you answer it, and it could take 
another 3 days to get an answer with, and so you could be waiting weeks 
to get something done. If you are prepared for a long wait then its 
worth paying.




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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

> Surely it has the same problem for people further down the chain?
> While going through the "struggling to make a brand" thing recently
> everyone else in the supply chain causes problems. Just because
> they're a big name doesn't make the problem go away for others. This
> is, however, just how the universe works at the moment. The only way
> to change it is to become a big name yourself.
>
> I'd also argue about Ubuntu having a long way to go with the brand.
> I've seen it crop up in the national news a couple of times, and it's
> in the trade mags quite frequently. It's got someway to go to get full
> household recognition, but not as far as many people would think.
>
Oh I'd very much like to become a big name. CTS, the UK's no.1 Ubuntu
retailer, I like that!

I agree we've reached a tipping point now and the fact many people at least
recognise the name now it what prompted me to set up in business. For once
I want to be the first on the bandwagon, not the last.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Matthew Daubney]

On 2 December 2011 14:11, Gareth France  wrote:
> The difference with someone like Intel or Quantum is that they don't need to
> establish their brand wheras Ubuntu has a long way to go and alienating
> anyone, be it OEM, support or end user is going to cost them dearly.


Surely it has the same problem for people further down the chain?
While going through the "struggling to make a brand" thing recently
everyone else in the supply chain causes problems. Just because
they're a big name doesn't make the problem go away for others. This
is, however, just how the universe works at the moment. The only way
to change it is to become a big name yourself.

I'd also argue about Ubuntu having a long way to go with the brand.
I've seen it crop up in the national news a couple of times, and it's
in the trade mags quite frequently. It's got someway to go to get full
household recognition, but not as far as many people would think.

-Matt Daubney

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

The difference with someone like Intel or Quantum is that they don't need
to establish their brand wheras Ubuntu has a long way to go and alienating
anyone, be it OEM, support or end user is going to cost them dearly.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Matthew Daubney  wrote:

> On 2 December 2011 14:04, Gareth France  wrote:
> > There NEEDS to be a quick response, even if that response is 'you have to
> > subscribe', 'you have to upgrade', 'you're supposed to look there'! The
> lack
> > of replies from Canonical is causing me major headaches.
>  
>
> Welcome to the business world :) I get this with suppliers everywhere,
> from Supermicro to Myricom to Areca to Intel to Hitachi to Quantum and
> so on and so forth. It's not something that ever surprises me.
>
> -Matt Daubney
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Matthew Daubney]

On 2 December 2011 14:04, Gareth France  wrote:
> There NEEDS to be a quick response, even if that response is 'you have to
> subscribe', 'you have to upgrade', 'you're supposed to look there'! The lack
> of replies from Canonical is causing me major headaches.
 

Welcome to the business world :) I get this with suppliers everywhere,
from Supermicro to Myricom to Areca to Intel to Hitachi to Quantum and
so on and so forth. It's not something that ever surprises me.

-Matt Daubney

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

There NEEDS to be a quick response, even if that response is 'you have to
subscribe', 'you have to upgrade', 'you're supposed to look there'! The
lack of replies from Canonical is causing me major headaches.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Matthew Daubney  wrote:

> On 2 December 2011 13:55, Avi Greenbury  wrote:
> > paul sutton wrote:
> >
> >> I am sure if you got to Microsoft or Apple or any other BIG player you
> >> get a fast response.  This is the business world i guess people want a
> >> quick response.
> >
> > Only if you pay them for it; Canonical sell that sort of support
> > contract, too.
>
> You have to remember as well that the response may just be "No", or
> "It's not supported" and you have no option on getting that changed.
>
> -Matt Daubney
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Matthew Daubney]

On 2 December 2011 13:55, Avi Greenbury  wrote:
> paul sutton wrote:
>
>> I am sure if you got to Microsoft or Apple or any other BIG player you
>> get a fast response.  This is the business world i guess people want a
>> quick response.
>
> Only if you pay them for it; Canonical sell that sort of support
> contract, too.

You have to remember as well that the response may just be "No", or
"It's not supported" and you have no option on getting that changed.

-Matt Daubney

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Avi Greenbury]

paul sutton wrote:

> I am sure if you got to Microsoft or Apple or any other BIG player you
> get a fast response.  This is the business world i guess people want a
> quick response.

Only if you pay them for it; Canonical sell that sort of support
contract, too.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

If I had hands? You don't?

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:33 PM, scoundrel50a  wrote:

> On 02/12/11 13:28, Alan Bell wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/11 13:17, scoundrel50a wrote:
>>
>>> I watch the IRC channels quite a lot, and I would say 60% of the time
>>> its chatting about nothing, and the rest is support if the person is
>>> understood..it can be very daunting on there
>>>
>> #ubuntu isn't chatting about nothing, it is all support (and people
>> behaving badly and then being guided in how to be less childish - this is a
>> problem and there is a substantial team of operators trying to keep it
>> under control). #ubuntu-uk is a little more relaxed and friendly, but
>> support questions are answered.
>>
>>  Alan told the op, either like it or go, which is basically the same
>>> thing like it or lump it, and if like me you arent computer literate and do
>>> need help, seeing that doesnt help.and if you noticed, that op hasnt
>>> appeared since
>>>
>> these are quite different things, "Like it or lump it" is suggesting that
>> the options are to be happy with it or be unhappy with it. "like it or go"
>> is suggestion the options are to be happy with it or be happy with
>> something else. Twice the happy!
>>
>>>
>>> So, people like me who likes Ubuntu, its going to be even more difficult
>>> in the future to get help?
>>>
>> not really, it will be much the same, or better
>>
>>> Does that mean you are making Ubuntu into a Business OS?
>>>
>> I hope so! Wouldn't it be great if people used Ubuntu at work because it
>> was the most suitable operating system. That doesn't mean you can't use it
>> at home too.
>>
>>
> Oh dear, patronising as wellIf I had hands I'd clap them
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[scoundrel50a]

On 02/12/11 13:28, Alan Bell wrote:

On 02/12/11 13:17, scoundrel50a wrote:
I watch the IRC channels quite a lot, and I would say 60% of the time 
its chatting about nothing, and the rest is support if the person is 
understood..it can be very daunting on there
#ubuntu isn't chatting about nothing, it is all support (and people 
behaving badly and then being guided in how to be less childish - this 
is a problem and there is a substantial team of operators trying to 
keep it under control). #ubuntu-uk is a little more relaxed and 
friendly, but support questions are answered.


Alan told the op, either like it or go, which is basically the same 
thing like it or lump it, and if like me you arent computer literate 
and do need help, seeing that doesnt help.and if you noticed, 
that op hasnt appeared since
these are quite different things, "Like it or lump it" is suggesting 
that the options are to be happy with it or be unhappy with it. "like 
it or go" is suggestion the options are to be happy with it or be 
happy with something else. Twice the happy!


So, people like me who likes Ubuntu, its going to be even more 
difficult in the future to get help?

not really, it will be much the same, or better

Does that mean you are making Ubuntu into a Business OS?
I hope so! Wouldn't it be great if people used Ubuntu at work because 
it was the most suitable operating system. That doesn't mean you can't 
use it at home too.




Oh dear, patronising as wellIf I had hands I'd clap them

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Alan Bell]

On 02/12/11 13:17, scoundrel50a wrote:
I watch the IRC channels quite a lot, and I would say 60% of the time 
its chatting about nothing, and the rest is support if the person is 
understood..it can be very daunting on there
#ubuntu isn't chatting about nothing, it is all support (and people 
behaving badly and then being guided in how to be less childish - this 
is a problem and there is a substantial team of operators trying to keep 
it under control). #ubuntu-uk is a little more relaxed and friendly, but 
support questions are answered.


Alan told the op, either like it or go, which is basically the same 
thing like it or lump it, and if like me you arent computer literate 
and do need help, seeing that doesnt help.and if you noticed, that 
op hasnt appeared since
these are quite different things, "Like it or lump it" is suggesting 
that the options are to be happy with it or be unhappy with it. "like it 
or go" is suggestion the options are to be happy with it or be happy 
with something else. Twice the happy!


So, people like me who likes Ubuntu, its going to be even more 
difficult in the future to get help?

not really, it will be much the same, or better

Does that mean you are making Ubuntu into a Business OS?
I hope so! Wouldn't it be great if people used Ubuntu at work because it 
was the most suitable operating system. That doesn't mean you can't use 
it at home too.


Alan.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[Gareth France]

I think the issue here is that the same sentence has two meanings. It's
supposed to mean 'if you want to try another distro then no hard feelings,
we're all on the same side and the other distros are fantastic.'
unfortunately the nay sayers tend to hear 'If you don't like what we offer
then you know where the door is.'

That's not how it's meant at all. I really think on the support issues that
way back when only the select few knew how to fix a pc then you could just
pop down to the local corner pc shop for help. We don't have that, yet. But
I'd like to think we're getting there and that it would be great to be in
an ecosystem where those who want to fix it themselves have the forums and
chat rooms, but those who just want it to work can simply pay a local guy
to fix it.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:11 PM, scoundrel50a  wrote:

> On 02/12/11 12:40, Alan Pope wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/11 12:24, scoundrel50a wrote:
>>
>>> Going round in cirlces again, we had this discussion not long ago and it
>>> seems every year we have the same one (and I remember 7.04 being
>>> intropduced), and the same things are being talked about and the same
>>> attitude if you dont like it, go somewhere else.
>>>
>>
>> Your mail seems more tailored to people wanting support. My comments are
>> not relating to support "my display doesn't work" but "Ubuntu is rubbish,
>> it should change" style comments.
>>
>
> Not really a comment about a OS especially one which has gone through such
> a drastic change as this one has, and when it still is really buggy, it
> will cause people problems especially when it was done without really
> letting people know about that changeand to get an answer basically
> well go somewhere else, doesnt help, and I would say it is a support
> question..
>
>
>> If you can't make it work, by all means try various methods to get
>> support. If you don't _like_ Ubuntu then it's entirely within your rights
>> to use a different distro, and if we can't accommodate your requirements we
>> are perfectly within our rights to say "try another distro".
>>
>>  I still have a computer that is fairly new, and I cant get 11.04 or
>>> 11.10 to install on it, and I still havent been able to get help to see
>>> if it will ever be able to get it to work, I had to buy a new computer
>>> another one, not many people will do thatvery few in fact
>>> would...and I am getting support from the company that I bought it
>>> from, or I would have had similar problems, not being able to get
>>> support.
>>>
>>>
>> If I recall last time we discussed this we recommended trying
>> http://askubuntu.com/ to get some support. How did that work out?
>>
>> Al.
>>
>>  I will answer this one again, it doesnt help..
>
>
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[scoundrel50a]

On 02/12/11 12:40, Alan Bell wrote:

On 02/12/11 12:24, scoundrel50a wrote:


Going round in cirlces again, we had this discussion not long ago and 
it seems every year we have the same one (and I remember 7.04 being 
intropduced), and the same things are being talked about and the same 
attitude if you dont like it, go somewhere else..Ubuntu wont get 
anywhere until you get a good support system in place, 'for everybody'.
there is an incredible community support framework in place globally. 
The LoCo teams, plus the IRC channels for LoCos and the official 
#ubuntu IRC channel. Just watch that for a few hours and see people 
being supported and helped.
I watch the IRC channels quite a lot, and I would say 60% of the time 
its chatting about nothing, and the rest is support if the person is 
understood..it can be very daunting on there
People wont stay because its just not there, and to be told if you 
dont like it go somewhere else even if your just talking to one 
person, somebody comes on and sees that, its bye.ok, some people 
dont like change, I dont like Unity, I think its too clunky, and that 
is before you get to the bugs...it seems that those of that dont 
like have to lump it and its tough
no, you don't have to lump it. You can make it the way you want it to 
be, or go use something else. If you want to be listened to there are 
several ways, deploy Ubuntu across many thousands of desktops, sell 
many thousands of computers with Ubuntu preinstalled, or contribute to 
Ubuntu. The third way is a totally achievable option. If you get 
involved in the ISO testing team, or the Accessibility team or the QA 
team or the Ubuntu Friendly team or participate in session at UDS or 
contribute to various other projects that make up Ubuntu then you will 
be listened to. Just using Ubuntu on your own computer and wanting it 
to be different doesn't count for much. Sorry.
Alan told the op, either like it or go, which is basically the same 
thing like it or lump it, and if like me you arent computer literate and 
do need help, seeing that doesnt help.and if you noticed, that op 
hasnt appeared since


I still have a computer that is fairly new, and I cant get 11.04 or 
11.10 to install on it, and I still havent been able to get help to 
see if it will ever be able to get it to work, I had to buy a new 
computer another one, not many people will do thatvery few in 
fact would...and I am getting support from the company that I 
bought it from, or I would have had similar problems, not being able 
to get support.


You need to decide if you are going to keep with just business or 
business and personal, which ever way you do it, you have to sort the 
support out..or every year the same subject is going to come 
upand still no real decisions have been made...


So, people like me who likes Ubuntu, its going to be even more difficult 
in the future to get help? Does that mean you are making Ubuntu into a 
Business OS?
this I do agree with, and I think there is too much focus on personal 
use. Too much messing about with media players and not enough focus on 
business use-cases. Apparently that is going to be addressed this 
cycle with a corporate desktop reference build, but I have not seen 
much action on that yet.


That is what I mean by static, its not moving forward.



this doesn't square up. You can't say it is changing and you don't 
like change and you want it to be the way it was, and simultaneously 
say it is static.


no what I am saying is, the support is static its not moving forward 
still get the same problems


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu - Wrong Direction?

[scoundrel50a]

On 02/12/11 12:40, Alan Pope wrote:

On 02/12/11 12:24, scoundrel50a wrote:

Going round in cirlces again, we had this discussion not long ago and it
seems every year we have the same one (and I remember 7.04 being
intropduced), and the same things are being talked about and the same
attitude if you dont like it, go somewhere else.


Your mail seems more tailored to people wanting support. My comments 
are not relating to support "my display doesn't work" but "Ubuntu is 
rubbish, it should change" style comments.


Not really a comment about a OS especially one which has gone through 
such a drastic change as this one has, and when it still is really 
buggy, it will cause people problems especially when it was done without 
really letting people know about that changeand to get an answer 
basically well go somewhere else, doesnt help, and I would say it is a 
support question..


If you can't make it work, by all means try various methods to get 
support. If you don't _like_ Ubuntu then it's entirely within your 
rights to use a different distro, and if we can't accommodate your 
requirements we are perfectly within our rights to say "try another 
distro".



I still have a computer that is fairly new, and I cant get 11.04 or
11.10 to install on it, and I still havent been able to get help to see
if it will ever be able to get it to work, I had to buy a new computer
another one, not many people will do thatvery few in fact
would...and I am getting support from the company that I bought it
from, or I would have had similar problems, not being able to get
support.



If I recall last time we discussed this we recommended trying 
http://askubuntu.com/ to get some support. How did that work out?


Al.


I will answer this one again, it doesnt help..



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