subject:"\[libreoffice\-users\] Re\: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg \?"

Hi :)
Errr, but i always avoid removing a Windows even if i think i'll never use it 
or need it.  Apparently with Win8 it's going to be even more important to keep 
the OS that is installed by the shop if you want to be able to return the 
machine for them to fix hardware issues.  At least if it's on the machine you 
can set Grub to hide itself and boot straight into Windows.  

Regards from
Tom :)  





>
> From: Tom Davies 
>To: Don C. Myers ; "users@global.libreoffice.org" 
> 
>Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 18:19
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
> 
>
>Hi :)
>If it's for myself i do very little to the Windows side except perhaps install 
>Firefox and LibreOffice.  I just don't use Windows if i can possibly avoid 
>it.  However if it's for a colleague or friend that's when i do loads to make 
>it more usable.  
>Regards from
>Tom :)  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> From: Don C. Myers 
>>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>>Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 17:02
>>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
>> 
>>
>>On 11/20/2012 06:15 AM, James Knott wrote:
>>> Don Myers wrote:
>>>> I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it 
>>>> comes on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what 
>>>> the public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something like 
>>>> $50 per computer that the computer companies pay Microsoft for Windows. So 
>>>> we both do pay for it with  new computer.
>>> 
>>> And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included with 
>>> many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a while, find 
>>> they can't work with their own documents unless they pay for Office.
>>> 
>>> 
>>The first
 thing I do when I get a computer is to install Ubuntu as a dual boot system. 
The next thing I do in Windows is to delete the trial version of MS Office.
>>
>>
>>-- 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
If it's for myself i do very little to the Windows side except perhaps install 
Firefox and LibreOffice.  I just don't use Windows if i can possibly avoid it.  
However if it's for a colleague or friend that's when i do loads to make it 
more usable.  
Regards from
Tom :)  





>
> From: Don C. Myers 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 17:02
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
> 
>
>On 11/20/2012 06:15 AM, James Knott wrote:
>> Don Myers wrote:
>>> I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it 
>>> comes on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what 
>>> the public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something like 
>>> $50 per computer that the computer companies pay Microsoft for Windows. So 
>>> we both do pay for it with  new computer.
>> 
>> And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included with 
>> many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a while, find 
>> they can't work with their own documents unless they pay for Office.
>> 
>> 
>The first thing I do when I get a computer is to install Ubuntu as a dual boot 
>system. The next thing I do in Windows is to delete the trial version of MS 
>Office.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
I think it's better if they make suggests rather than being dictatorial 
otherwise people make a determined stand to go another way.  Prohibition didn't 
work in the US and other countries have tried to suppress this or that which 
has continued anyway despite a government outlawing it or even grown in 
popularity once it becomes "naughty".  

Regards from
Tom :)  





>
> From: Jay Lozier 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Monday, 19 November 2012, 21:09
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
> 
>On 11/19/2012 02:24 PM, VA wrote:
>> At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government 
>> dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.
>> 
>> Virgil
>> 
>The issue is not truly political if the agreed standards are used by all - it 
>levels the playing field and tends to lower costs for consumers.
>> -Original Message- From: Jay Lozier
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:16 PM
>> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
>> 
>> On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:
>>> I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
>>> standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
>>> agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I have
>>> many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them less
>>> than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things will
>>> be like in 30 years for those "old" files. I believe it's of paramount
>>> importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
>>> that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
>>> all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
>>> just the latest flavor of the "big boy."  I am actually fairly concerned
>>> about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
>>> addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
>>> USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
>>> separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
>>> change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for formatting
>>> changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
>>> permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
>>> file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
>>> that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
>>> been since the file was created.
>>> Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
>>> That's my opinion.  YMMV
>>> Steve Bradley
>> Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies, zip-disks,
>> etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to
>> force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any proprietary
>> formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for doc and
>> related formats.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>
>-- Jay Lozier
>jsloz...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread Mirosław Zalewski

On 19/11/2012 at 14:34, Carl Paulsen  wrote:

> So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute 
> (templates is a good example) that is easily found?

Not sure if this is specific enough, but take a look here:
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2012/11/16/sgauti-digest/

There are also some articles on Sophie's blog that are not listed there. You 
can find them here:
http://sophiegautier.com/blog/index.php/
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
Hmmm, i thought that machines without Windows cost more because of some weird 
marketing deal with OEMs
Regards from
Tom :) 





>
> From: Steve Edmonds 
>To: VA  
>Cc: LibreOffice  
>Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 1:40
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
> 
>I get a discount for purchasing without windows.
>I say I want that machine, no windows, take it off the price, and save myself 
>some dollars.
>Steve
>
>On 2012-11-20 13:57, VA wrote:
>> I'm not defending Microsoft; I don't particularly like them. I'm just saying 
>> that if I don't want to buy MS, I don't have to, and neither does anyone 
>> else.
>> 
>> Of course, you can buy a Mac and not have Windows. However, I never count 
>> Windows as a "purchase" because it comes installed on the computer. I don't 
>> pay any extra for it, and I have NEVER purchased any Windows upgrade. After 
>> buying a Windows computer, if I wanted, I could completely blow off the 
>> Windows, reformat the hard drive and install Linux. I'm sure many people 
>> have done just that. I have a dual-boot Windows/Linux system on my laptop.
>> 
>> While my employer has purchased MS Office, I have never done so for my home 
>> computers.
>> 
>> In other words, no matter what tactics MS uses, legal or not, as the 
>> customer, I always control where I spend my money. MS cannot dominate my 
>> computer without my permission or the software market without our collective 
>> permission.
>> 
>> Virgil
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: James Knott
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:04 PM
>> To: LibreOffice
>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
>> 
>> VA wrote:
>>> Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.
>> 
>> Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available,
>> they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they
>> forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including
>> extortion.
>> 
>> 
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
Again that is something MS has been pretty clever about.  Their new format (the 
one that only works on the same machine, the same OS and the same version of 
MSO) has the same name as something they pushed through as an ISO standard and 
it has all the right words in it, such as Office and Open.  So even though 
their implementations are not open they can claim the standard is and when that 
standard is implemented and doesn't work they can claim it's the fault of the 
3rd party.  
Regards from
Tom :)  





>
> From: Carl Paulsen 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 1:50
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
> 
>Here, here.  But what about gov'ts mandating simply that the format 
>structure be open (without mandating a specific one be used)? That's not 
>political IMHO.
>Carl
>
>
>On 11/19/12 3:15 PM, M Henri Day wrote:
>> 2012/11/19 VA 
>>
>>> At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
>>> dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.
>>>
>>> Virgil
>>>
>> At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
>> corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
>> executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
>> render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format
>>
>> Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
>> possible, is one of the principle tasks of government
>>
>> Henri
>>
>
>-- 
>
>Carl Paulsen
>
>8 Hamilton Street
>
>Dover, NH 03820
>
>(603) 749-2310
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
I just installed LibreOffice on all our own machines so that everyone in this 
office can easily open ODF documents.  It's only when sending to outsiders that 
there might be an issue.  In those cases i save using the older "doc" format 
and send a Pdf.  The doc format has become such a cross-platform standard that 
MS are going to have to work hard to get people to stop using it.  Perhaps we 
will see another rash of viruses attacking MS formats.  

So, i don't need to encourage people to go back to MSO as e-letter does.  Just 
pity those that do use it.  
Regards from
Tom :) 





>
> From: e-letter 
>To: dennis.hamil...@acm.org; users  
>Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 10:38
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
> 
>On 19/11/2012, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:
>> The OOXML specifications are at least as complete and rigorous as the ODF
>> ones.
>>
>> Every indication is that the ODF 1.2 support in Office 2013 is quite good.
>> Of particular importance to many users is that OpenFormula is now supported,
>> and this will provide a tremendous improvement in interop between
>> LibreOffice Calc and MSO 2013.  Whether this becomes a preferable path
>> between Office and LibreOffice instead of relying on OOXML conversion in LO
>> is an open question.
>>
>
>That ODF12 is supported by m$ is useful to know, thanks. This means
>that LO users will be able to send ODF12 documents and when recipients
>complain that they can't read it, the recommended options are to
>upgrade to m$ or use LO/another ODF compliant program.
>
>As mentioned before ad nausem, those unhappy with LO should simply revert to 
>m$.
>
>The best way to solve these endless questions about "compatibility" is
>not to use LO as a m$ clone. Use it to create odf documents or buy m$.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
I tend to use Office either 
1.  as a generic term covering MS Office, LO, Gnome Office and all the rest 
(incl ones i don't know) or
2.  meaning LO (unless chatting with colleagues)

If i am chatting with colleagues and they use the term it's usually to say that 
something is broken or weird or doesn't work properly in MSO so i make them 
clarify which Office they are talking about and if they say the MS one then i 
grimace and shrug and maybe even vocalise the "Well what do you expect?  That 
is one of the many typical problems with MSO.  You have to either put up with 
it (as everyone else does) or use LO.  Don't worry though because no-one else 
will notice that mangling of your document because they are so familiar with 
that sort of thing from MSO"

Regards from
Tom :)






>
> From: James Knott 
>To: LibreOffice  
>Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 11:15
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
> 
>Don Myers wrote:
>> I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it comes 
>> on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what the 
>> public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something like $50 
>> per computer that the computer companies pay Microsoft for Windows. So we 
>> both do pay for it with  new computer.
>
>And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included with 
>many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a while, find they 
>can't work with their own documents unless they pay for Office.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi :)
I think MS have been really clever.  Their .DocX and such have been pushed 
through as  ostensibly being an accepted ISO  standard even though each of 
their programs seems to mis-implement it in strange and different way.  

So, they can say the DocX is a standardised format and then that it's the 
user's fault for not using the right version of MS Office in order to read this 
so-called standarised format in the right way.  

"Third party" programs such as LibreOffice have to decide which of the DocX 
formats they follow.  Should they implement the spec as agreed with the ISO 
people, in which case none of the MS programs display it properly or should 
they pick 2007, 2010 or 365?  Whichever of the 4 choices are settled on people 
will then grumble that their documents produced in any of the others doesn't 
display properly AND because DocX is an ISO format then therefore it is the 
fault of LO for not following the 'standard' properly.  

So, people have to stick with MS Office in order to read and produce the 
standardised MS format.  More than that, they have to upgrade to whichever one 
all the people they deal with uses otherwise it wont look right.  All that is 
the user's fault because the standard is DocX and the format used in each 
program is called DocX and therefore it must be the same, right?!!?  (The big 
NO from all those that know gets ignored).  So who is claiming that it is the 
users fault when it clearly isn't?!  The users themselves blame themselves and 
make excuses as to why they haven't bought the 'right' version yet!  They 
honestly don't think it's a bit strange that a so-called 'standard' is not 
acting the way a standard should and that they need to keep upgrading.  

So, while file-compatibility is often cited as a reason to stick with MS Office 
that compatibility only happens if the people sharing the document are using 
the same version of MS Office.  Also a disclaimer during installing 2010 states 
that it needs to be on the same OS.  It says that 2010 on Xp will look 
different if viewed by 2010 on Win7 [on the same machine with the same printer]

The whole thing is crazy.  

Add in that MS made a big fuss about trying to work with other people by 
including "OpenDocument Format" but used the older format rather than the 1.2 
that everyone else uses and now says it shows that the ODF format is 
fundamentally broken so people should stick with DocX.  It's only MS Office 
that fails to display ODF properly.  Sometimes one product makes an honest 
mistake but that is seen as a bug and gets reported and hopefully fixed. It's 
not blamed on the user for not using the right product.  

Amazing that people keep falling for MS.  
Regards from
Tom :)  





>
> From: Carl Paulsen 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012, 1:51
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
> 
>
>> Without trying to defend MS, it can only dominate markets that customers 
>> allow it to dominate. Nobody is forced to purchase MS products. They do so 
>> because, for whatever reason, they perceive that MS serves their needs. One 
>> of those needs is file compatibility with others, which by its nature, 
>> allows MS sales to feed on themselves. The more people buy MS products, the 
>> more people need to buy MS products to communicate with all the others who 
>> went before.
>
>But, of course, the only reason file compatibility is an issue - the only 
>reason MS can behave as it does - is that it is an effective monopoly.  Last 
>time I checked monopolies are anti-competitive, and there are LAWS in the US 
>to curb them.  So I agree, there is a role for gov't to step in.  Good luck 
>waiting for that though.  Break the monopoly for a few years by being 
>hyper-vigilant about code development and marketing and you might actually 
>break the monopoly for good.
>
>Furthermore, if enough people forced gov't to accept standardized document 
>types (e.g. ODT or even PDFs!), the monopoly would weaken.
>
>Carl
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread Don C. Myers



On 11/20/2012 06:15 AM, James Knott wrote:

Don Myers wrote:
I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when 
it comes on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less 
than what the public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was 
something like $50 per computer that the computer companies pay 
Microsoft for Windows. So we both do pay for it with  new computer.


And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included 
with many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a 
while, find they can't work with their own documents unless they pay 
for Office.



The first thing I do when I get a computer is to install Ubuntu as a 
dual boot system. The next thing I do in Windows is to delete the trial 
version of MS Office.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread Jay Lozier


On 11/20/2012 09:12 AM, P.J. Koeleman. wrote:

VA,

In reply to your E-mail from 20-11-2012, 14:05 with subject "[libreoffice-users] Re: 
OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?".

V> MS must use several different methods of pushing its Office. My Sony laptop
V> came with Win7 and a "Starter" version of Office. I have a stripped down
V> version of Word and Excel. Many advanced functions are missing and I have
V> banner ad reminders to buy the full version, but the software doesn't seem
V> to be "time bombed." I've had it for two years now and it still works.
Just a thought of an average user.

Microsoft is forced by the European community to give user the choice
what browser they want to use (IE, Firefox, Chrome, Safari ...).
Microsoft even got a penalty for refusing it.

It would be a nice option, if a buyer of a computer can select as well
which office suite he want to use. Let say MSO, OO or LO.
This could increase the number off users using LibreOffice. To reach
this goal TDF needs to start a lobby in Brussels.

Greetings,

Piet Jan Koeleman.


IMHO Europe will probably finally force the issue with full ODF 
compatibility with MS. MS has annoyed many with their monopolistic tactics.


A marketing problem for MS is as long as the MSO formats are 
supported/readable by the current MSO and other suites (LO/AOO) many 
will not need the newest version. Truthfully the market has matured 
enough for office suites that improvements are incremental not 
fundamental. I can remember when spelling and grammar checkers were 
added - that was a big deal. That improvement was enough to get anyone's 
attention. It was such a valuable addition to the usefulness of the 
suite that people would get the newest version. But the last versions of 
any office suite have been incremental improvements, bug fixes, etc. 
that are important but may not really impact a specific user. Thus the 
older version is still perfectly adequate. In the case of MSO I not sure 
I have used any of the new features added since MSO 2000 in any version 
of MSO I have used. The market growth for MS is much slower because for 
many there is no major reason to upgrade for many unless forced to by 
lack of support of either the file format or the software itself.

.

--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P


On 11/19/2012 07:04 PM, James Knott wrote:

VA wrote:

Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.


Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some 
available, they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to 
see how they forced market share with illegal and near illegal 
methods, including extortion.





Buying a computer without an OS installed is easy.  You just have to not 
go into the brick-n-morter stores, but go online to various stores.  I 
bought my quad computer without an OS.  I then added a 19" monitor from 
a differentonline store, which was cheaper than buying the computer's 
store LCD/LED options.  That was a few years back, but I see computers 
all the time listed with either no OS or Win7.  I will never buy a Win8 
computer, with its anti-Win7 and anti-Linux security system


Try TigerDirect.com for your computer needs.  I do.  They have good 
warranties as well.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread P.J. Koeleman.

VA,

In reply to your E-mail from 20-11-2012, 14:05 with subject 
"[libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?".

V> MS must use several different methods of pushing its Office. My Sony laptop
V> came with Win7 and a "Starter" version of Office. I have a stripped down
V> version of Word and Excel. Many advanced functions are missing and I have
V> banner ad reminders to buy the full version, but the software doesn't seem
V> to be "time bombed." I've had it for two years now and it still works.
Just a thought of an average user.

Microsoft is forced by the European community to give user the choice
what browser they want to use (IE, Firefox, Chrome, Safari ...).
Microsoft even got a penalty for refusing it.

It would be a nice option, if a buyer of a computer can select as well
which office suite he want to use. Let say MSO, OO or LO.
This could increase the number off users using LibreOffice. To reach
this goal TDF needs to start a lobby in Brussels.

Greetings,

Piet Jan Koeleman.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread VA

MS must use several different methods of pushing its Office. My Sony laptop 
came with Win7 and a "Starter" version of Office. I have a stripped down 
version of Word and Excel. Many advanced functions are missing and I have 
banner ad reminders to buy the full version, but the software doesn't seem 
to be "time bombed." I've had it for two years now and it still works.


All that said, I never use it unless I need full Office compatibility, which 
of course is the issue that started this thread in the first place.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: James Knott

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:15 AM
To: LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Don Myers wrote:
I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it 
comes on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what 
the public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something like 
$50 per computer that the computer companies pay Microsoft for Windows. So 
we both do pay for it with  new computer.


And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included
with many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a
while, find they can't work with their own documents unless they pay for
Office.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread James Knott


Carl Paulsen wrote:
Here, here.  But what about gov'ts mandating simply that the format 
structure be open (without mandating a specific one be used)? That's 
not political IMHO.


http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20121119172623282

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread James Knott


Don Myers wrote:
I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it 
comes on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than 
what the public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was 
something like $50 per computer that the computer companies pay 
Microsoft for Windows. So we both do pay for it with  new computer.


And lets not forget the time bombed versions of Office that's included 
with many new computers.  People start using it, and then, after a 
while, find they can't work with their own documents unless they pay for 
Office.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-20 Thread e-letter

On 19/11/2012, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:
> The OOXML specifications are at least as complete and rigorous as the ODF
> ones.
>
> Every indication is that the ODF 1.2 support in Office 2013 is quite good.
> Of particular importance to many users is that OpenFormula is now supported,
> and this will provide a tremendous improvement in interop between
> LibreOffice Calc and MSO 2013.  Whether this becomes a preferable path
> between Office and LibreOffice instead of relying on OOXML conversion in LO
> is an open question.
>

That ODF12 is supported by m$ is useful to know, thanks. This means
that LO users will be able to send ODF12 documents and when recipients
complain that they can't read it, the recommended options are to
upgrade to m$ or use LO/another ODF compliant program.

As mentioned before ad nausem, those unhappy with LO should simply revert to m$.

The best way to solve these endless questions about "compatibility" is
not to use LO as a m$ clone. Use it to create odf documents or buy m$.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Paolo Debortoli

yes, microsoft has a strong monopolistic policy.  furthermore the attempts of 
big pc producers to sell desktops and laptops with linux instead of windows 
failed.  however there are promising producers such as garlach44 or system76 
who provide nice pcs with linux.  however it seems clear that producers has to 
choose between windows and linux.  




 From: James Knott 
To: LibreOffice  
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
 
VA wrote:
> Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.

Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available, 
they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they forced 
market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including extortion.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Don Myers


Hi Virgil,

I have never purchased a copy of Windows either. I only get it when it 
comes on a computer. Microsoft charges computer companies less than what 
the public pays, but the last time I heard anything it was something 
like $50 per computer that the computer companies pay Microsoft for 
Windows. So we both do pay for it with  new computer.


Don


On 11/19/2012 07:57 PM, VA wrote:
I'm not defending Microsoft; I don't particularly like them. I'm just 
saying that if I don't want to buy MS, I don't have to, and neither 
does anyone else.


Of course, you can buy a Mac and not have Windows. However, I never 
count Windows as a "purchase" because it comes installed on the 
computer. I don't pay any extra for it, and I have NEVER purchased any 
Windows upgrade. After buying a Windows computer, if I wanted, I could 
completely blow off the Windows, reformat the hard drive and install 
Linux. I'm sure many people have done just that. I have a dual-boot 
Windows/Linux system on my laptop.


While my employer has purchased MS Office, I have never done so for my 
home computers.


In other words, no matter what tactics MS uses, legal or not, as the 
customer, I always control where I spend my money. MS cannot dominate 
my computer without my permission or the software market without our 
collective permission.


Virgil

-Original Message- From: James Knott
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:04 PM
To: LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in 
Freiburg ?


VA wrote:

Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.


Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available,
they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they
forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including
extortion.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Steven Bradley

Wow! I didn't mean to cause such a firestorm of discussionbut isn't it
good?? and isn't this why there IS open source software?? So that we can
create, and eventually have our creations exist and be read by the next
generation?? File formats are the new paper. It's important that no one
company or person own the formula for paper.
SteveB.


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:04 PM, James Knott  wrote:

> VA wrote:
>
>> Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.
>>
>
> Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available,
> they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they
> forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including
> extortion.
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.**
> org 
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> unsubscribe/
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> http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/users/
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> deleted
>



-- 
 Steven C. (Steve) Bradley
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absolutely no good." - Samuel
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?



Without trying to defend MS, it can only dominate markets that 
customers allow it to dominate. Nobody is forced to purchase MS 
products. They do so because, for whatever reason, they perceive that 
MS serves their needs. One of those needs is file compatibility with 
others, which by its nature, allows MS sales to feed on themselves. 
The more people buy MS products, the more people need to buy MS 
products to communicate with all the others who went before.


But, of course, the only reason file compatibility is an issue - the 
only reason MS can behave as it does - is that it is an effective 
monopoly.  Last time I checked monopolies are anti-competitive, and 
there are LAWS in the US to curb them.  So I agree, there is a role for 
gov't to step in.  Good luck waiting for that though.  Break the 
monopoly for a few years by being hyper-vigilant about code development 
and marketing and you might actually break the monopoly for good.


Furthermore, if enough people forced gov't to accept standardized 
document types (e.g. ODT or even PDFs!), the monopoly would weaken.


Carl

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Here, here.  But what about gov'ts mandating simply that the format 
structure be open (without mandating a specific one be used)? That's not 
political IMHO.

Carl


On 11/19/12 3:15 PM, M Henri Day wrote:

2012/11/19 VA 


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

Virgil


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri



--

Carl Paulsen

8 Hamilton Street

Dover, NH 03820

(603) 749-2310


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Steve Edmonds


I get a discount for purchasing without windows.
I say I want that machine, no windows, take it off the price, and save 
myself some dollars.

Steve

On 2012-11-20 13:57, VA wrote:
I'm not defending Microsoft; I don't particularly like them. I'm just 
saying that if I don't want to buy MS, I don't have to, and neither 
does anyone else.


Of course, you can buy a Mac and not have Windows. However, I never 
count Windows as a "purchase" because it comes installed on the 
computer. I don't pay any extra for it, and I have NEVER purchased any 
Windows upgrade. After buying a Windows computer, if I wanted, I could 
completely blow off the Windows, reformat the hard drive and install 
Linux. I'm sure many people have done just that. I have a dual-boot 
Windows/Linux system on my laptop.


While my employer has purchased MS Office, I have never done so for my 
home computers.


In other words, no matter what tactics MS uses, legal or not, as the 
customer, I always control where I spend my money. MS cannot dominate 
my computer without my permission or the software market without our 
collective permission.


Virgil

-Original Message- From: James Knott
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:04 PM
To: LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in 
Freiburg ?


VA wrote:

Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.


Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available,
they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they
forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including
extortion.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

I'm not defending Microsoft; I don't particularly like them. I'm just saying 
that if I don't want to buy MS, I don't have to, and neither does anyone 
else.


Of course, you can buy a Mac and not have Windows. However, I never count 
Windows as a "purchase" because it comes installed on the computer. I don't 
pay any extra for it, and I have NEVER purchased any Windows upgrade. After 
buying a Windows computer, if I wanted, I could completely blow off the 
Windows, reformat the hard drive and install Linux. I'm sure many people 
have done just that. I have a dual-boot Windows/Linux system on my laptop.


While my employer has purchased MS Office, I have never done so for my home 
computers.


In other words, no matter what tactics MS uses, legal or not, as the 
customer, I always control where I spend my money. MS cannot dominate my 
computer without my permission or the software market without our collective 
permission.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: James Knott

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:04 PM
To: LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

VA wrote:

Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.


Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available,
they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they
forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including
extortion.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread James Knott


VA wrote:

Nobody is forced to purchase MS products.


Try and buy a computer without Windows.  While there are some available, 
they're rare.  Also, read up on the MS anti trust cases to see how they 
forced market share with illegal and near illegal methods, including 
extortion.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

I fully agree with your clarification. Microsoft needs customers more than 
customers need Microsoft, and the larger customers could very well influence 
how Microsoft designs its software.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Steven Bradley

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:20 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

I think my point, apparently not clear, was that governments themselves
would say, "We will only *use* software that meets these criteria." I don't
support governments mandating file types, or intervening in my private
business. However, they are by far the "biggest elephant in the room," and
if, for example, the USGovt would say, "Folks, we love your software, but
we will only buy it if it produces file types that are compatible with the
following" then MSO and others would do that, because they need sales
as much as the next company.  And about the govt being involved in the
computer world, and the internet...anybody remember DARPA??  And DARPAnet??
Steve

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Mirosław Zalewski
wrote:

On 19/11/2012 at 15:52, "VA"  wrote:

> I think there's a difference between "standards" as declared by computer
> developers and societies and "standards" determined by the marketplace.

I believe that lawyers call them "de facto standard" and... "we would
really
like this to be standard, so do us a favor, please - standard". It's hard
to
call ODF "de jure standard", really.
--
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Relationship with God:
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<http://realestateandfinancialwisdom.blogspot.com/>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Steven Bradley

I think my point, apparently not clear, was that governments themselves
would say, "We will only *use* software that meets these criteria." I don't
support governments mandating file types, or intervening in my private
business. However, they are by far the "biggest elephant in the room," and
if, for example, the USGovt would say, "Folks, we love your software, but
we will only buy it if it produces file types that are compatible with the
following" then MSO and others would do that, because they need sales
as much as the next company.  And about the govt being involved in the
computer world, and the internet...anybody remember DARPA??  And DARPAnet??
Steve


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Mirosław Zalewski
wrote:

> On 19/11/2012 at 15:52, "VA"  wrote:
>
> > I think there's a difference between "standards" as declared by computer
> > developers and societies and "standards" determined by the marketplace.
>
> I believe that lawyers call them "de facto standard" and... "we would
> really
> like this to be standard, so do us a favor, please - standard". It's hard
> to
> call ODF "de jure standard", really.
> --
> Best regards
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Mirosław Zalewski

On 19/11/2012 at 15:52, "VA"  wrote:

> I think there's a difference between "standards" as declared by computer 
> developers and societies and "standards" determined by the marketplace.

I believe that lawyers call them "de facto standard" and... "we would really 
like this to be standard, so do us a favor, please - standard". It's hard to 
call ODF "de jure standard", really.
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 02:24 PM, VA wrote:
At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my 
government dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my 
documents.


Virgil

The issue is not truly political if the agreed standards are used by all 
- it levels the playing field and tends to lower costs for consumers.

-Original Message- From: Jay Lozier
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:16 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in 
Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. 
I have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote 
them less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what 
things will

be like in 30 years for those "old" files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They 
must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, 
not

just the latest flavor of the "big boy."  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, 
for the

USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for 
formatting

changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest 
that the

file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley

Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies, zip-disks,
etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to
force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any proprietary
formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for doc and
related formats.







--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

While its interesting to get different perspectives from around the globe, 
I'm not sure we'll agree on the principal tasks of government, so I'll leave 
that subject and return to the computer side of things.


Without trying to defend MS, it can only dominate markets that customers 
allow it to dominate. Nobody is forced to purchase MS products. They do so 
because, for whatever reason, they perceive that MS serves their needs. One 
of those needs is file compatibility with others, which by its nature, 
allows MS sales to feed on themselves. The more people buy MS products, the 
more people need to buy MS products to communicate with all the others who 
went before.


Perhaps it's also a function of job security for IT managers. Back in the 
'80s, the saying was that, "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM products." 
My guess is that, today, you can replace "IBM" in that phrase with 
"Microsoft."


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: M Henri Day

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 3:15 PM
To: VA
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 VA 


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

Virgil



At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P

On 11/19/2012 12:58 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

On 2012-11-19 12:43 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:

You can get the OOXML standard from
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm

Are you actually suggesting that this is either complete or accurate?

You can get the binary file format description from
http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx

Ditto... a 'description of a file format' doesn't equate to somethinhg
that can be used/relied upon to build something that accurately
renders and/or recreates said format.

The ECMA standard is available in MSO 2013 as "OOXML strict", but LO
fails to read it.

So, I've heard, does MSO...

The new OOXML works only with MSO 2013. So this is another time they
make their new version's OOXML not compatible with their previous
versions of MSO. 2010 cannot read the new 2013 version, 2007 cannot
read the one that came out with 2010. That is why I stick with .doc for
Word 97/2000/XP/2003. Then everyone I know that uses Word will be able
to use my files.

SO, it only makes sense that it will be a bit till LO gets the needed
import/export filters to work with this newest version of MSO. I wonder
if the format is actually finalized yet. Last I heard it was not, as
well as MSO 2013 was in beta testing.

MSO 2013 supports ODF 1.2.

Really? Have you tested this? How accurately does it render ODF 1.2
files created with LibO?

If an authority demands standards or even demands ODF, this can all be
fulfilled with MSO, no need to use LO.

Rotflmao!

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Girvin R. Herr




M Henri Day wrote:

2012/11/19 VA 

  

At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

Virgil




At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri

  

+2
Girvin Herr


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Don C. Myers


Well said Henri!

On 11/19/2012 03:15 PM, M Henri Day wrote:

2012/11/19 VA 


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.

Virgil


At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri



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Manager, Farm and Rural Property Division
e-PRO Certified by the National Association of Realtors
Don's Cell Phone: 814-571-9518, Don's Home Phone: 814-422-8111
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Girvin R. Herr




Steven Bradley wrote:

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things will
be like in 30 years for those "old" files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
just the latest flavor of the "big boy."  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for formatting
changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley

  

+10
Girvin Herr




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 VA 

> At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government
> dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.
>
> Virgil
>

At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is a multi-national
corporation, responsible to no one save a few major shareholders and/or top
executives, which, due to its domination of the market, can effectively
render it manditory for me to use its proprietary file format

Regulation of markets, so that they remain as free and accessible as
possible, is one of the principle tasks of government

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

At the risk of getting political, the last thing I want is my government 
dictating to me what kind of file format to use on my documents.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Jay Lozier

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:16 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I 
have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them 
less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things 
will

be like in 30 years for those "old" files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
just the latest flavor of the "big boy."  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for 
formatting

changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley

Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies, zip-disks,
etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to
force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any proprietary
formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for doc and
related formats.




--
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jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 01:13 PM, Steven Bradley wrote:

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things will
be like in 30 years for those "old" files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
just the latest flavor of the "big boy."  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for formatting
changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley
Add to file formats, ability to read the old media (floppies, zip-disks, 
etc). Back to your point, it will probably take government action to 
force the use of ODF or similar standard formats over any proprietary 
formats. I am waiting for the MSO version that drops support for doc and 
related formats.





--
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jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Thanks, all.  My resources are such that it'd be hard for me to 
contribute much, but it's helpful to know there are small ways I could 
pitch in.  I will see if I can make room to contribute in some way.  And 
the specific suggestions are indeed helpful.


Carl


On 11/19/12 11:31 AM, Joel Madero wrote:

I was one of the one who sent a direct email to you (should have kept it on
list, my apologies) about contributing. QA is actively trying to grow and
requires very little (if any) programming skills. If you'd like to help out
with QA (triaging mostly right now), let us know and we'll help you get
started. Devs can't start fixing problems until they are appropriately
prioritized so there may be hundreds of bugs about interoperability with
MSO but Devs can't look at it until our small team of QA'ers get to them
and verify the bugs and then prioritize.

Regards,
Joel


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Marc Paré  wrote:


Hi Carl,

Le 2012-11-19 08:34, Carl Paulsen a écrit :


Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't
necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the real
issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the other end.

So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute
(templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for more
specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on the
website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more
specifics).

Carl


Our contributions are team driven. Usually, if an individual is seriously
interested in contributing:

* she/he will go to the "Get Involved" section of our website[1]
* read through the different categories for contribution
* choose/join an area of interest
* announce her/himself to the list
* state their particular interest in that section
* members will then direct them to their project needs

If unsure of where you would best fit:

* the "user" or the "discuss" mailing lists are where you could leave
questions with regards to contributing
* someone from the project will ask you about your interests, after which,
guide you to the right contributor-section that suits you best
* once you have joined the team and announced yourself, the team members
will help guide you to their project needs.

Feel free to let us know in what way you could help out the project, and,
we will help you find the right section. You will find that we will gladly
accept your help in whatever section you decide to join.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Marc
Marketing Team Member

http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-involved/

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Steven Bradley

I remember this discussion a few years back, when MSO was the defacto
standard, and a moving target. One of the most important things for any
agency, company government, or individual is backward compatibility. I have
many documents that are difficult for me to retrieve, and I wrote them less
than 20 years ago, using DOS programs.  I can only imagine what things will
be like in 30 years for those "old" files. I believe it's of paramount
importance, even in this age of rapid development and change, to realize
that electronic storage of documents is the wave of the future. They must
all be stored in a simple-to-access format that any program can read, not
just the latest flavor of the "big boy."  I am actually fairly concerned
about this, since the concept of proprietary file types has never been
addressed by any government agency (it would be easy, for example, for the
USGovt to mandate that all files be maintained with the formatting in a
separate file.  If a large govt (China, the US, EU) mandated that simple
change, then all files would cease to be proprietary, except for formatting
changes.  One might lose the formats, but the file itself would have a
permanence that most files do not now have.  I might also suggest that the
file formatting be subject to some sort of regulation (yes, they CAN do
that!), which makes all formatting retrievable, no matter how long it's
been since the file was created.
Otherwise, we'll all lose a huge amount of information.
That's my opinion.  YMMV
Steve Bradley

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> The docx, xslx, pptx formats and others are OOXML. There are deviations as
> well as features (such as encryption) that are not part of OOXML.  But most
> of the non-support claims about Microsoft honoring OOXML are based on the
> fact that early implementations supported the transitional flavor of OOXML.
>  The move to the strict flavor, a separation created in the ISO process,
> has been made over time along with continuing support of transitional OOXML.
>
> My experience is that deviations with respect to the OOXML standard are
> documented better in Microsoft on-line implementation notes than is done by
> any implementations of ODF-based software.
>
> Microsoft Office also supports ODF 1.1 since Office 2007 SP2 and ODF 1.2
> is supported in the new Office 2013.  There are public, on-line
> implementation notes and documentation of deviations for those too.  I've
> also heard that European versions of Microsoft Office can be set to have
> ODF as the default format.  I have no way to confirm that and I am not
> certain that is new with Office 2013 or is also the case for Office 2010.
>
> The main binary formats, and RTF (a text-carried format) are now all
> documented and that has been true for a few years. All of the
> specifications are freely downloadable.
>
>  - Dennis
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Don C. Myers [mailto:donmy...@myersfarm.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 08:57
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> When the Microsoft formats were approved as an ISO standard, wasn't that
> supposed to make the information on their formats available to everyone
> else? From what I've read through the years, they have failed to
> implement their own ISO standards. Shouldn't there be some way to
> enforce the ISO standards approval on Microsoft so they can become
> inter-operable with LibreOffice?
>
> Don
>
>
> On 11/19/2012 08:03 AM, VA wrote:
> > Tanstaafl wrote:
> >
> > "There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
> > other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
> > lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
> > formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
> > understand has benefited the Samba project immensely)."
> >
> >
> > It would help immensely if the Open Source folks would combine their
> > efforts on one excellent MS alternative. The twin development of AOO
> > and LibO (with each having its own advantages over the other), only
> > helps MS.
> >
> > Virgil
> >
>
> --
>
>
> **
>
>
> --
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> Problems?
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&

RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton

The OOXML specifications are at least as complete and rigorous as the ODF ones.

Every indication is that the ODF 1.2 support in Office 2013 is quite good.  Of 
particular importance to many users is that OpenFormula is now supported, and 
this will provide a tremendous improvement in interop between LibreOffice Calc 
and MSO 2013.  Whether this becomes a preferable path between Office and 
LibreOffice instead of relying on OOXML conversion in LO is an open question.

You can test the support yourself using the in-browser support of documents via 
Web applications in Microsoft SkyDrive.  Not all features are supported on 
SkyDrive (for either Microsoft OOXML or ODF), but this should provide an 
initial smell test.

Yes, more detailed testing and comparison is a good idea.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Tanstaafl [mailto:tansta...@libertytrek.org] 
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 09:59
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 2012-11-19 12:43 PM, Regina Henschel  wrote:
> You can get the OOXML standard from
> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm

Are you actually suggesting that this is either complete or accurate?

> You can get the binary file format description from
> http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx

Ditto... a 'description of a file format' doesn't equate to somethinhg 
that can be used/relied upon to build something that accurately renders 
and/or recreates said format.

> The ECMA standard is available in MSO 2013 as "OOXML strict", but LO
> fails to read it.

So, I've heard, does MSO...

> MSO 2013 supports ODF 1.2.

Really? Have you tested this? How accurately does it render ODF 1.2 
files created with LibO?

> If an authority demands standards or even demands ODF, this can all be
> fulfilled with MSO, no need to use LO.

Rotflmao!

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker


On 19/11/12 17:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

I've also heard that European versions of Microsoft Office can be set to have 
ODF as the default format.


That's correct - on a fresh install of Office 2010 it asks whether you 
want ODF or OOXML as the default document type.


--

Registered Linux User no 240308
GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/  
Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8

I only accept odf or pdf documents by email


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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton

The docx, xslx, pptx formats and others are OOXML. There are deviations as well 
as features (such as encryption) that are not part of OOXML.  But most of the 
non-support claims about Microsoft honoring OOXML are based on the fact that 
early implementations supported the transitional flavor of OOXML.  The move to 
the strict flavor, a separation created in the ISO process, has been made over 
time along with continuing support of transitional OOXML.

My experience is that deviations with respect to the OOXML standard are 
documented better in Microsoft on-line implementation notes than is done by any 
implementations of ODF-based software.  

Microsoft Office also supports ODF 1.1 since Office 2007 SP2 and ODF 1.2 is 
supported in the new Office 2013.  There are public, on-line implementation 
notes and documentation of deviations for those too.  I've also heard that 
European versions of Microsoft Office can be set to have ODF as the default 
format.  I have no way to confirm that and I am not certain that is new with 
Office 2013 or is also the case for Office 2010.

The main binary formats, and RTF (a text-carried format) are now all documented 
and that has been true for a few years. All of the specifications are freely 
downloadable. 

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Don C. Myers [mailto:donmy...@myersfarm.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 08:57
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Hi Everyone,

When the Microsoft formats were approved as an ISO standard, wasn't that 
supposed to make the information on their formats available to everyone 
else? From what I've read through the years, they have failed to 
implement their own ISO standards. Shouldn't there be some way to 
enforce the ISO standards approval on Microsoft so they can become 
inter-operable with LibreOffice?

Don

On 11/19/2012 08:03 AM, VA wrote:
> Tanstaafl wrote:
>
> "There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
> other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
> lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
> formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
> understand has benefited the Samba project immensely)."
>
>
> It would help immensely if the Open Source folks would combine their 
> efforts on one excellent MS alternative. The twin development of AOO 
> and LibO (with each having its own advantages over the other), only 
> helps MS.
>
> Virgil
>

-- 

**

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2012-11-19 12:43 PM, Regina Henschel  wrote:

You can get the OOXML standard from
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm


Are you actually suggesting that this is either complete or accurate?


You can get the binary file format description from
http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx


Ditto... a 'description of a file format' doesn't equate to somethinhg 
that can be used/relied upon to build something that accurately renders 
and/or recreates said format.



The ECMA standard is available in MSO 2013 as "OOXML strict", but LO
fails to read it.


So, I've heard, does MSO...


MSO 2013 supports ODF 1.2.


Really? Have you tested this? How accurately does it render ODF 1.2 
files created with LibO?



If an authority demands standards or even demands ODF, this can all be
fulfilled with MSO, no need to use LO.


Rotflmao!

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Regina Henschel


Hi Everyone,

Don C. Myers schrieb:

Hi Everyone,

When the Microsoft formats were approved as an ISO standard, wasn't that
supposed to make the information on their formats available to everyone
else?


You can get the OOXML standard from 
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm


You can get the binary file format description from
http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx

 From what I've read through the years, they have failed to

implement their own ISO standards.


The ECMA standard is available in MSO 2013 as "OOXML strict", but LO 
fails to read it.


 Shouldn't there be some way to

enforce the ISO standards approval on Microsoft so they can become
inter-operable with LibreOffice?


MSO 2013 supports ODF 1.2.

If an authority demands standards or even demands ODF, this can all be 
fulfilled with MSO, no need to use LO.


Kind regards
Regina




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Don C. Myers


Hi Everyone,

When the Microsoft formats were approved as an ISO standard, wasn't that 
supposed to make the information on their formats available to everyone 
else? From what I've read through the years, they have failed to 
implement their own ISO standards. Shouldn't there be some way to 
enforce the ISO standards approval on Microsoft so they can become 
inter-operable with LibreOffice?


Don


On 11/19/2012 08:03 AM, VA wrote:

Tanstaafl wrote:

"There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely)."


It would help immensely if the Open Source folks would combine their 
efforts on one excellent MS alternative. The twin development of AOO 
and LibO (with each having its own advantages over the other), only 
helps MS.


Virgil



--


**


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 09:52 AM, VA wrote:

Jay wrote:

"ODF formats are the international standard so technically MS is not
being standards compliant. This may be very useful if someone where to
sue MS for monopolistic practices."

I think there's a difference between "standards" as declared by 
computer developers and societies and "standards" determined by the 
marketplace. In the business marketplace, DOC and DOCX are the 
standard as they are what the vast number of business users use.


And, in the market place, standards can change. Twenty years ago, the 
standard for word processors was WordPerfect (WPD). Over time that 
changed to Word, but even then, in the legal profession, WordPerfect 
held on a little longer. Now, WordPerfect is a footnote.


MS may not be "standards compliant" but as long as they are the 
biggest game in town, what they do IS the standard.


Virgil

I think the issue becomes there is a recognized international standard. 
In a lawsuit the issue becomes why does one not fully support the 
international standard or if you refuse why do not fully publish your 
standard. In the 80's I do not remember an international standard for 
anything other that text documents so everyone made their own.


--
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jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Joel Madero

I was one of the one who sent a direct email to you (should have kept it on
list, my apologies) about contributing. QA is actively trying to grow and
requires very little (if any) programming skills. If you'd like to help out
with QA (triaging mostly right now), let us know and we'll help you get
started. Devs can't start fixing problems until they are appropriately
prioritized so there may be hundreds of bugs about interoperability with
MSO but Devs can't look at it until our small team of QA'ers get to them
and verify the bugs and then prioritize.

Regards,
Joel


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Marc Paré  wrote:

> Hi Carl,
>
> Le 2012-11-19 08:34, Carl Paulsen a écrit :
>
>> Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't
>> necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the real
>> issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the other end.
>>
>> So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute
>> (templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some
>> general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for more
>> specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on the
>> website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more
>> specifics).
>>
>> Carl
>>
>
> Our contributions are team driven. Usually, if an individual is seriously
> interested in contributing:
>
> * she/he will go to the "Get Involved" section of our website[1]
> * read through the different categories for contribution
> * choose/join an area of interest
> * announce her/himself to the list
> * state their particular interest in that section
> * members will then direct them to their project needs
>
> If unsure of where you would best fit:
>
> * the "user" or the "discuss" mailing lists are where you could leave
> questions with regards to contributing
> * someone from the project will ask you about your interests, after which,
> guide you to the right contributor-section that suits you best
> * once you have joined the team and announced yourself, the team members
> will help guide you to their project needs.
>
> Feel free to let us know in what way you could help out the project, and,
> we will help you find the right section. You will find that we will gladly
> accept your help in whatever section you decide to join.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
> Marketing Team Member
>
> http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-involved/
>
> --
> Marc Paré
> m...@marcpare.com
> http://www.parEntreprise.com
> parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
> parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org
>
>
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> deleted
>



-- 
*Joel Madero*
LibO QA Volunteer
jmadero@gmail.com

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[libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Marc Paré


Hi Carl,

Le 2012-11-19 08:34, Carl Paulsen a écrit :

Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't
necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the real
issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the other end.

So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute
(templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for more
specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on the
website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more
specifics).

Carl


Our contributions are team driven. Usually, if an individual is 
seriously interested in contributing:


* she/he will go to the "Get Involved" section of our website[1]
* read through the different categories for contribution
* choose/join an area of interest
* announce her/himself to the list
* state their particular interest in that section
* members will then direct them to their project needs

If unsure of where you would best fit:

* the "user" or the "discuss" mailing lists are where you could leave 
questions with regards to contributing
* someone from the project will ask you about your interests, after 
which, guide you to the right contributor-section that suits you best
* once you have joined the team and announced yourself, the team members 
will help guide you to their project needs.


Feel free to let us know in what way you could help out the project, 
and, we will help you find the right section. You will find that we will 
gladly accept your help in whatever section you decide to join.


Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Marc
Marketing Team Member

http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/

--
Marc Paré
m...@marcpare.com
http://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Dr. R. O Stapf

What a discussion has been started. Great!

As for doing revers engineering on binary files, I know how difficult it is. However, it is not
impossible. Should the great devs of AOO and LibO be enabled to join forces, there is a tremendous
know-how and manpower available. I just hope that people in both organizations start thinking about
joining forces and act ASAP.

EU and the law suit is definitely something which can help us.

This reminds me to discussions on highest management level in a multinational company of some 8000 -
1 employees world wide. Management was "not very happy" with the way MS used their power.

This means that also larger corporations could switch to a highly bug free LibO. As for new
features of MSO and an productivity increase in large corporation it is actually close to zero. The
introduction of ribbons caused a huge productivity loss in large corporations and cost a lot of
money for ribbon training. Such a switch could also be accelerated by MS new policy to offer their
products on subscription base. Huge regular bills will be eye-catchers...

I keep fingers crossed and will contribute when I can do so.

On 2012-11-19 22:46, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

I contribute to LibreOffice by working on the North American Community DVD Project in creating
English distribution DVDs. Also I have created the largest [so I have been told] spell checking
dictionaries for American English, British English, and Canadian English. Also, I try to help
people out on some of the lists.

There is a project that is getting started, by some of the users, to create a 4 page cheat sheet
to help new users learn and use LibreOffice. That is in the initial "idea" stage and needs help
to get it going.

So there are options out there than could use some people who do not have any programming skills,
or marketing skills. If you have the ability to explain how things are done in LibreOffice and
get that down on paper, you are needed. I know that the documentation people are looking for
people to do various things. Heck, if you can go to the NA-DVD project and help make it better, I
would be most grateful.

Tim L.
webmas...@libreoffice-na.us
http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.6-installs/install.html

On 11/19/2012 08:34 AM, Carl Paulsen wrote:
Thanks, Regina. I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't necessarily know what
they are. Templates is one way, but the real issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO. We can't
control the other end.

So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute (templates is a good example)
that is easily found? I've seen some general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched
much for more specifics. In any case it should probably be front and center on the website
(again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more specifics).

Carl

On 11/19/12 8:09 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
compatibility with MS Office. Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
correctly, at least from MSO to LO). I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.

I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target. With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make inroads.

Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.

You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for interoperability I heard on LibOCon, is
to make templates, that can be converted nicely. So if you have access to MSO, then examine,
what kind of things are dangerous for converting and what kind of things convert without
problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and create good templates based on this
rationale.

Kind regards
Regina

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


Jay wrote:

"ODF formats are the international standard so technically MS is not
being standards compliant. This may be very useful if someone where to
sue MS for monopolistic practices."

I think there's a difference between "standards" as declared by computer 
developers and societies and "standards" determined by the marketplace. In 
the business marketplace, DOC and DOCX are the standard as they are what the 
vast number of business users use.


And, in the market place, standards can change. Twenty years ago, the 
standard for word processors was WordPerfect (WPD). Over time that changed 
to Word, but even then, in the legal profession, WordPerfect held on a 
little longer. Now, WordPerfect is a footnote.


MS may not be "standards compliant" but as long as they are the biggest game 
in town, what they do IS the standard.


Virgil 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


On 11/19/2012 07:49 AM, VA wrote:
The truly maddening part is that, if more people used LibO, then the 
.ODT format would become "standard" and MS would be relegated to 
irrelevance.


So, Office wins because corporations buy it, making its file format 
"standard," which forces the rest of us to conform.


It's absolutely crazy.

Virgil
ODF formats are the international standard so technically MS is not 
being standards compliant. This may be very useful if someone where to 
sue MS for monopolistic practices.


-Original Message- From: Tanstaafl
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:32 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in 
Freiburg ?


On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day  wrote:

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl



I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which 
means they
can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is 
they
are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but 
this
could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could 
actually back

fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 
'renew'
our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just 
stay on

whatever version we currently have until the world ends).


Subscription based models are probably better for the vendor not the 
user over the life of the product. I suspect the fees will be charged 
monthly instead of annually to lower the sticker shock and even out cash 
flow.


Implicit in this model is that users will being using the "Cloud" to 
access the programs rather than having it installed on their machines. 
This raises another set of issues about the "Cloud" versus local 
installation.
An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» 
its

«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market


There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).




--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread webmaster-Kracked_P_P



I contribute to LibreOffice by working on the North American Community 
DVD Project in creating English distribution DVDs.  Also I have created 
the largest [so I have been told] spell checking dictionaries for 
American English, British English, and Canadian English.  Also, I try to 
help people out on some of the lists.


There is a project that is getting started, by some of the users, to 
create a 4 page cheat sheet to help new users learn and use 
LibreOffice.  That is in the initial "idea" stage and needs help to get 
it going.


So there are options out there than could use some people who do not 
have any programming skills, or marketing skills.  If you have the 
ability to explain how things are done in LibreOffice and get that down 
on paper, you are needed.  I know that the documentation people are 
looking for people to do various things.  Heck, if you can go to the 
NA-DVD project and help make it better, I would be most grateful.


Tim L.
webmas...@libreoffice-na.us
http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.6-installs/install.html


On 11/19/2012 08:34 AM, Carl Paulsen wrote:
Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I 
don't necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the 
real issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the 
other end.


So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute 
(templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some 
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for 
more specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on 
the website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but 
more specifics).


Carl


On 11/19/12 8:09 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER 
convert

correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO 
users.


I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make 
inroads.


Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.


You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for 
interoperability I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can 
be converted nicely. So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what 
kind of things are dangerous for converting and what kind of things 
convert without problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and 
create good templates based on this rationale.


Kind regards
Regina







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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't 
necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the real 
issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the other end.


So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute 
(templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some 
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for more 
specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on the 
website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more 
specifics).


Carl


On 11/19/12 8:09 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.

I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make 
inroads.


Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.


You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for 
interoperability I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can be 
converted nicely. So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what 
kind of things are dangerous for converting and what kind of things 
convert without problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and 
create good templates based on this rationale.


Kind regards
Regina




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Regina Henschel


Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.

I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make inroads.

Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.


You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for interoperability 
I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can be converted nicely. 
So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what kind of things are 
dangerous for converting and what kind of things convert without 
problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and create good 
templates based on this rationale.


Kind regards
Regina


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


Tanstaafl wrote:

"There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely)."


It would help immensely if the Open Source folks would combine their efforts 
on one excellent MS alternative. The twin development of AOO and LibO (with 
each having its own advantages over the other), only helps MS.


Virgil 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

The truly maddening part is that, if more people used LibO, then the .ODT 
format would become "standard" and MS would be relegated to irrelevance.


So, Office wins because corporations buy it, making its file format 
"standard," which forces the rest of us to conform.


It's absolutely crazy.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tanstaafl

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:32 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day  wrote:

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl



I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means 
they

can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually 
back

fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay 
on

whatever version we currently have until the world ends).



An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market


There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).

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deleted 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl 

> On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day  wrote:
>
>> 2012/11/19 Tanstaafl
>
>



>  An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
>> «intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
>> quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market
>>
>
> There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
> other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
> lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
> formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
> understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).
>

A consumation devoutly to be wished

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day  wrote:

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl



I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means they
can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually back
fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay on
whatever version we currently have until the world ends).



An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market


There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some 
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust 
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file 
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I 
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl 

> On 2012-11-19 1:40 AM, rost52  wrote:
>
>> This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO
>> doesn' come up with a new format every week, thus our devs have a very
>> good chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.
>>
>
> Sounds easy, doesn't it? Until you realize that the documentation of the
> file formats is secret.
>
> Do you have any idea how hard it is to reverse engineer a binary file
> format spec (even the new XML formats contain binary code).
>
>
> On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:
>
>> In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
>> compatibility with MS Office. Virtually every file I receive from MS
>> Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER
>> convert correctly, at least from MSO to LO).
>>
>
> In our experience (smallish company with base of 50+ users), file format
> compatability was actually very good *until* Microsoft came out with
> their new 'improved' XML formats in office 2007. It got *much* worse
> with the newer version in Office 2010 - so much worse that many files
> were totally crashing Libreoffice.
>
> It was this that caused the boss to mandate that new PC purchases come
> with an Office License, and we buy 5 additional ones until everyone gets
> Microsoft Office.
>
> We will continue to install LibreOffice side by side, but the days of
> only our Accountants having Office are over, I'm sad to say.
>
>
>
> On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:
>
>> Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
>> attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a
>> reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many
>> others?
>>
>> Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev
>> work,  LibO must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO
>> formats. I keep fingers crossed.
>>
>
> I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
> out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means they
> can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
> are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
> could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually back
> fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
> boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
> our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay on
> whatever version we currently have until the world ends).
>
> Charles
>

An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market

Henri

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012-11-19 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2012-11-19 1:40 AM, rost52  wrote:

This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO
doesn' come up with a new format every week, thus our devs have a very
good chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.


Sounds easy, doesn't it? Until you realize that the documentation of the 
file formats is secret.


Do you have any idea how hard it is to reverse engineer a binary file
format spec (even the new XML formats contain binary code).

On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
compatibility with MS Office. Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER
convert correctly, at least from MSO to LO).


In our experience (smallish company with base of 50+ users), file format
compatability was actually very good *until* Microsoft came out with
their new 'improved' XML formats in office 2007. It got *much* worse
with the newer version in Office 2010 - so much worse that many files
were totally crashing Libreoffice.

It was this that caused the boss to mandate that new PC purchases come
with an Office License, and we buy 5 additional ones until everyone gets
Microsoft Office.

We will continue to install LibreOffice side by side, but the days of
only our Accountants having Office are over, I'm sad to say.


On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:

Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a
reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many
others?

Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev
work, 　LibO　must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO
formats. I keep fingers crossed.


I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means 
they can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding 
is they are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - 
but this could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could 
actually back fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed 
this with my boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to 
have to 'renew' our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade 
again (just stay on whatever version we currently have until the world 
ends).


Charles

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?