Re: Excel formula tool tip suggestion to match Microsoft's feature

[David]

Steve Greaves wrote:

Hi, team.
When building a formula in Excel, the tool tip does not go *BOLD,* as 
you type, unlike Microsoft's Excel.

May I suggest that this could be developed in a newer version?
Examples below:
Microsoft's has the BOLD type to help...



Developers don't visit here generally; see Reporting bugs or suggestions 
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13490


Since you are not subscribed to this list you may not see all the 
replies to your query. To subscribe to Apache OpenOffice mailing lists 
go to http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html


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Excel formula tool tip suggestion to match Microsoft's feature

[Steve Greaves]

Hi, team.
When building a formula in Excel, the tool tip does not go BOLD, as you type, 
unlike Microsoft's Excel.
May I suggest that this could be developed in a newer version?
Examples below:
 
Microsoft's has the BOLD type to help...

Re: Program suggestion

[David Robley]

On 10/09/2023 15:06, Surfy wrote:

Thank you for the great service you have been providing the public for o many 
years.
I have a suggestion for OpenOffice Writer to add to the "Find/Search" function 
- could you please show the total number of times a search word or
Reporting bugs or suggestions -> 
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=13490

  phrase appears in a document. Also it would be handy if once you search for a 
word that it is stored in a drop down for certain time to select from in the 
future.
Thank you again
Surfsailor


There is currently a drop down of recent searches in the Find & Replace 
dialog and I also see it in the Find tool on the Find toolbar. The 
former seems to retain searches for the current OpenOffice session, 
where the latter seems restricted to the document in which the search 
was done.Using OpenOffice 4.1.14 on Linux.


Since you are not subscribed to this list you may not see all the 
replies to your query. To subscribe to Apache OpenOffice mailing lists 
go to http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html


As a courtesy I have forwarded a copy of this reply to you as well as to 
the mailing list. Do Not reply to me personally but just to the list at 
 - replies to my personal email address 
will be ignored.



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Program suggestion

[Surfy]

Thank you for the great service you have been providing the public for o many 
years.
I have a suggestion for OpenOffice Writer to add to the "Find/Search" function 
- could you please show the total number of times a search word or phrase 
appears in a document. Also it would be handy if once you search for a word 
that it is stored in a drop down for certain time to select from in the future.
Thank you again
Surfsailor

Re: re finding words in articles in open office suggestion

[W. Robert J. Funnell, Prof.]

Priscilla -

I don't have Word so I'm not familiar with the Search tool in Word that you're 
describing. It sounds like the Search tool in the upper right corner of the 
Windows File Explorer.

In Debian (and presumably also in Ubuntu) there is the 'recoll' application, 
which searches within the contents of files. I don't have much experience with 
it, but I think it may do what you need. There is documentation at 
www.recoll.org, and you should be able to install it from within Ubuntu.

- Robert

From: Priscilla Van Sutphin 
Sent: February 14, 2023 15:05
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: re finding words in articles in open office suggestion

[You don't often get email from tears4a...@gmail.com. Learn why this is 
important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]

One of the things you can do that is extremely helpful for finding
things in writings

is to put a word in search in microsoft word  in your calling up you
list of articles,

So you can find something you've written but can't find which article it
is in.

So I can click on documents in Word, and there is a search option in
upper right corner

and I

  can put in the word sabotage for example, and find it in several
articles I 've written.

But on using Ubuntu i cannot do that in open office.  Is there anyway
you can change that?

Priscilla


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re finding words in articles in open office suggestion

[Priscilla Van Sutphin]

One of the things you can do that is extremely helpful for finding 
things in writings


is to put a word in search in microsoft word  in your calling up you 
list of articles,


So you can find something you've written but can't find which article it 
is in.


So I can click on documents in Word, and there is a search option in 
upper right corner


and I

 can put in the word sabotage for example, and find it in several 
articles I 've written.


But on using Ubuntu i cannot do that in open office.  Is there anyway 
you can change that?


Priscilla

tears4a...@gmail.com


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Dictionaries, Suggestion List, and Real Apostrophes

[Rod Lockwood]

Is there a way to get AOO to accept real apostrophes (’) by default 
instead of the straight single quote (') in words?


Sometimes the spellchecking just doesn’t work well. Sometimes I wind up 
with nonsense words in the Suggestions list, usually with the most 
likely candidates at the bottom. Sometimes the word will be in the user 
dictionary, but for some reason still being flagged. Recently, I 
remembered years ago in a program the spellchecker would have a list of 
words and when none of them were correct, you typed in your word and it 
was added to the top of the list. Or if the word was correct and already 
in the dictionary but still being flagged, you had an option to mark the 
word as being the correct word and continue the search. I tried 
different strategies to fix this in the Exceptions dictionary, but it 
either winds up making no difference or making it worse.


Sometimes punctuation at the end of the sentence is flagged. I can 
understand when it is confused as to whether the period should be inside 
or outside of a quote mark or parenthesis, but sometimes it flags 
periods. Is there someway to add these punctuation markings permanently 
to an Ignore list? Or just have them not flagged at all?


Also I just realized having foreign dictionaries installed doesn’t 
really do anything to spellcheck foreign words and names in an English 
language file. I use a lot of foreign words and names in my files and 
stories. Could there be some way to make a document language neutral or 
something so words from all languages are checked? Or possibly a way to 
have a foreign language dictionary show up on the list of user dictionaries?


--
Sincerely,
Rod Lockwood

Suggestion relating to installing and updating Apache Open Office - was - Re: Winding OpenOffice down

[Bret Busby]

 like 
/usr/bin/aoffice (or, /usr/bin/aoo).


If, in considering this, the aspect that some users of office suites and 
component applications, like me, are users with limited skills  ("a bear 
with little brain" :) ), would be considered, it could, perhaps, justify 
implementing my suggestion, to make the use of Apache Open Office, more 
accessible.


Out of interest, I was using Star Office 5.0 (I think it was), when it 
was produced by the Star Corporation, and, included, amongst its 
components, an email application. I remember travelling to the Perth 
(Western Australia) CBD office of a company that distributed it, to 
obtain an official CD of it .


--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..


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Suggestion for improvement

[DieterHeyn]

Hello,
Open Office opens each window with the size
of the previous window.
It would be very helpful if the window size
depended on the file.
So: Each file has its own window size and
position
--  Dieter Heyn
Klausstr. 3
   65366 Geisenheim

   dieterh...@web.de
   Rheingauer24.de
   06722-409 72 60
   0160 9 8080 567

Fwd: Re: Suggestion

[Martin Groenescheij]

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: Suggestion
Date:   Sat, 20 Jun 2020 06:47:40 +0200
From:   Piet Fox 
To: Martin Groenescheij 



Thanks Martin, that is a great solution!

Regards/Groete,

*Piet Fox *(Dip.Electr.Eng.; Mem.SAIEE)

Cell.: +264 81 169 6340

foxp...@gmail.com <mailto:foxp...@gmail.com>


Fox Lighting CC

P O Box 2483

225, Nangolo Mbumba Street

Walvis Bay




On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 2:49 PM Martin Groenescheij 
mailto:mar...@groenescheij.com>> wrote:



On 18/06/2020 07:27, Piet Fox wrote:

Firstly, I want to say that I love OpenOffice and it is the only program I
use for all my Word, Excel and Powerpoint documents.
As I am Afrikaans speaking, I'm often using Special Characters such as "ê"
and "ë".
It is really an effort for me to go to the Special Characters tab every
time and insert the Special Character that I need.
In MS Word there is a shortcut to insert these Characters while typing. The
shortcut is "ctrl" and "shift" and "Special Character" together and after
releasing the keys you can type the "e" and it would insert the Special
Character automatically.


Much simpler to add these yourself in the Replace tab of the AutoCorrect 
table

e.g. enter e^ forê or e: for ë


Can you please add this shortcut to your wonderful program.

Regards/Groete,

*Piet Fox *(Dip.Electr.Eng.; Mem.SAIEE)

Cell.: +264 81 169 6340

foxp...@gmail.com


Fox Lighting CC

P O Box 2483

225, Nangolo Mbumba Street

Walvis Bay

Re: Suggestion

[Martin Groenescheij]

On 18/06/2020 07:27, Piet Fox wrote:

Firstly, I want to say that I love OpenOffice and it is the only program I
use for all my Word, Excel and Powerpoint documents.
As I am Afrikaans speaking, I'm often using Special Characters such as "ê"
and "ë".
It is really an effort for me to go to the Special Characters tab every
time and insert the Special Character that I need.
In MS Word there is a shortcut to insert these Characters while typing. The
shortcut is "ctrl" and "shift" and "Special Character" together and after
releasing the keys you can type the "e" and it would insert the Special
Character automatically.


Much simpler to add these yourself in the Replace tab of the AutoCorrect 
table

e.g. enter e^ forê or e: for ë


Can you please add this shortcut to your wonderful program.

Regards/Groete,

*Piet Fox *(Dip.Electr.Eng.; Mem.SAIEE)

Cell.: +264 81 169 6340

foxp...@gmail.com


Fox Lighting CC

P O Box 2483

225, Nangolo Mbumba Street

Walvis Bay

Re: Suggestion

[toki]

On 2020/06/18 05:27, Piet Fox wrote:
> In MS Word there is a shortcut to insert these Characters while typing. The
> shortcut is "ctrl" and "shift" and "Special Character" together and after
> releasing the keys you can type the "e" and it would insert the Special
> Character automatically.
> Can you please add this shortcut to your wonderful program.

Autocorrect.
I don't know if it is/was publicly distributed, but there was an
Afrikaans autocorrect that had a number of Afrikaans words, written
without the diacritic marks, that would automatically correct
themselves. Possibly the most usefully was the " n " that was
automatically replaced by " ʼn ".

Along those lines, I also saw a proposal for South African place names
to be added. Type in the old name, and it replaced it with the new name,
and in parenthesis had "formerly place-name". I don't know if that
proposal was ever implemented.

Nando's #RightMyName has yet to make it to Apache OpenOffice.

jonathon

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Suggestion

[Piet Fox]

Firstly, I want to say that I love OpenOffice and it is the only program I
use for all my Word, Excel and Powerpoint documents.
As I am Afrikaans speaking, I'm often using Special Characters such as "ê"
and "ë".
It is really an effort for me to go to the Special Characters tab every
time and insert the Special Character that I need.
In MS Word there is a shortcut to insert these Characters while typing. The
shortcut is "ctrl" and "shift" and "Special Character" together and after
releasing the keys you can type the "e" and it would insert the Special
Character automatically.
Can you please add this shortcut to your wonderful program.

Regards/Groete,

*Piet Fox *(Dip.Electr.Eng.; Mem.SAIEE)

Cell.: +264 81 169 6340

foxp...@gmail.com


Fox Lighting CC

P O Box 2483

225, Nangolo Mbumba Street

Walvis Bay

Suggestion for search function

[Andhi Saputra]

i just want to suggest search function adding total hit and search location 
like in HxD.i more like using Open Office because more simple and not confusing 
but i also need search function like HxD to confirm how much i can find the 
same text and the location by simple click.

Example above.Thank you.
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suggestion

[glgracik]

I was thinking , because I read an interactive book, that it would be good if 
you would design a writer program that has imbedded video and audio feature and 
make it one file …possibly… for pdf export.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Suggestion - Internet-Data-Processing-Centered Browser. The Next Browser.

[Bruno Morgado]

Hello to you all at OpenOffice,

My name is Bruno Morgado, i'm writing you from Portugal and i do have a 
Suggestion to present you if you don't have already that kind of Solutions 
within the OpenOffice one. 

Have you ever thought about making possible an Internet Focused Product where 
we Enter the Internet Address and over that choose which Internet Page 
Components to Filter, which Components to Remain and Retain and which to 
Dispose, has to Filter Data, Filtering the Internet Page Components, for ex. 
Initially with a check box and getting in a Simple User Frendlly Manner which 
Internet Page Data to Retain and whcih to Dispose, Incorporating that kind of 
Feature within a Internet Browser has to Get a more Usefull Internet Browser, 
one more Data Centered, where the End User has Total Internet Data Filtering 
and Processing Capacities has to keep all the Integrity of the Initial Internet 
Content made Available has the Content Creator has Made It or Created It, but 
keeping all the Internet Data Manipulation Capability/Capacity that Today-Day 
IT and Other Technologies make Possible has to have all this at the Internet 
User's Hand, has long has Original Source Data Integrity it's kept Protected.
The Internet Browser to be used by Data Centered Internet End Users, in an 
Internet Data Centered World.

thank you for your time, Bruno J. M. Morgado

Re: Suggestion of Ways to Combat Fake AOO Download Sites

[jonathon]

On November 29, 2014 8:03:14 AM PST, Tom Panfil  wrote:

>  All the projects could watch that site's links to catch any corruption 
> introduced maliciously to the download links .

People redirected to the SourceForge from Openoffice.org have ended up 
downoading the program from a malicious third party. Whilst the cause of that 
issue has been dealt with, it is extremely difficult to deal with all the 
mutations of persuading people to part with a buck to download something.

The only practical solution is to constantly educate people about good computer 
hygiene practices.   (What is really sad, is that malware that used to only be 
found only in the cyberspace equivalent of a bar that prohibited unarmed 
patrons, is now peddled by major websites.)

jonathon

-- 
Your documents. Your language. Your way.

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Re: Suggestion of Ways to Combat Fake AOO Download Sites

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 29/11/2014 Tom Panfil wrote:

perhaps some site could be developed to provide the official download
links for Apache OO


For Apache OpenOffice, that site is our official site: 
http://www.openoffice.org ; it almost always comes first in Internet 
searches (but yes, sponsored links are the problem; more below).



Perhaps a press release could then be sent to prominent computer gurus
with significant followings to invite them to alert their audiences


That post already exists at http://s.apache.org/genuine-openoffice ; 
everyone is welcome to give visibility to it.



It could point them to the consolidated site for links to the
official download sites.


I don't know if a consolidated site (linking in turn to the individual 
official sites) is a solution. In the end, the openoffice.org site is a 
resource that we fully control, it is official and it comes higher in 
Internet searches.



Perhaps help could be enlisted from socially responsible Search Engine
operators too.


When you see suspicious sites come up in a web search for one of our 
trademarks, please inform us as explained at 
https://openoffice.apache.org/trademarks.html ; in some cases (although 
it needs a significant effort) we managed to enforce them and get the 
sponsored links removed.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Suggestion of Ways to Combat Fake AOO Download Sites

[DaveMainwaring]

 NINITE gets excellent reviews and is the source I use and trust

About Ninite

Ninite was founded by Patrick Swieskowski and Sascha Kuzins. Investors
include Y Combinator  and a small collection of
helpful angels .

We believe in simplicity.

 You can contact us via email  or at our office:
 Secure By Design Inc.
795 Folsom Street -- First Floor
San Francisco, CA 94107

--
"To succeed, stay focused, Do what you do best,

* up-skill,  prepare for new challenge,make time for earning"*

 Advocate: Client Focused Health Care Providers: Physicians, Hospitals,
Nursing Homes, and Other Care Services

http://tinyurl.com/nmnvme3

 Dave+Mainwaring+Knowledge+Networks

--

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Tom Panfil  wrote:

> So many people get burned by doing a search for Apache Open Office or just
> for Open Office  then downloading from a malicious 3rd party site that the
> Apache OO Project should do what it can to try to warn people *in
> advance*.   It is impossible to do that globally and repeatedly but perhaps
> some site could be developed to provide the official download links for
> Apache OO and other good Open Source software like that from Mozilla.   All
> the projects could watch that site's links to catch any corruption
> introduced maliciously to the download links .
>
> Perhaps a press release could then be sent to prominent computer gurus
> with significant followings to invite them to alert their audiences to the
> problem of people being tricked into making downloads from malicious
> sites.  It could point them to the consolidated site for links to the
> official download sites.  There are probably many such gurus with wide
> followings.  I'd suggest Kim Komando as a start.  (Maybe she'd even
> consider hosting that consolidated site -- I bet that she would.)
>
> Perhaps help could be enlisted from socially responsible Search Engine
> operators too.  I hope that such creatures exist.  I'd invite them to
> demonstrate their good will toward the honest computer uses of the world by
> ranking the official community wide download link site first when people
> search for any of the Open Source SW which it advertises.
>
> v/r,  Tom Panfil
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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>
>

Suggestion of Ways to Combat Fake AOO Download Sites

[Tom Panfil]

So many people get burned by doing a search for Apache Open Office or 
just for Open Office  then downloading from a malicious 3rd party site 
that the Apache OO Project should do what it can to try to warn people 
*in advance*.   It is impossible to do that globally and repeatedly but 
perhaps some site could be developed to provide the official download 
links for Apache OO and other good Open Source software like that from 
Mozilla.   All the projects could watch that site's links to catch any 
corruption introduced maliciously to the download links .


Perhaps a press release could then be sent to prominent computer gurus 
with significant followings to invite them to alert their audiences to 
the problem of people being tricked into making downloads from malicious 
sites.  It could point them to the consolidated site for links to the 
official download sites.  There are probably many such gurus with wide 
followings.  I'd suggest Kim Komando as a start.  (Maybe she'd even 
consider hosting that consolidated site -- I bet that she would.)


Perhaps help could be enlisted from socially responsible Search Engine 
operators too.  I hope that such creatures exist.  I'd invite them to 
demonstrate their good will toward the honest computer uses of the world 
by ranking the official community wide download link site first when 
people search for any of the Open Source SW which it advertises.


v/r,  Tom Panfil

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Re: Suggestion for Writer

[NoOp]

On 11/27/2014 08:54 AM, dbo...@mmm.com (J. David Boyd) wrote:
> Rory O'Farrell  writes:
> 
>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:09:07 -0500
>> dbo...@mmm.com (J. David Boyd) wrote:
>>
>>> "f.carbon...@libero.it"  writes:
>>> 
>>> > New command in "File" 'Save page'. The possibility to save single page
>>> > from .odt document in another .odt file. For example: document.odt
>>> > with 35 pages. I want save page 14 of this document only. With 'Save
>>> > page', I can do. With avanzate service, insert the command for save
>>> > pages from page x to page y in another .odt document.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Fabio
>>> 
>>> I like the sound of that.  I'm not sure I would need it all the time, as I 
>>> can
>>> always select and copy and save a page, but it would make some things 
>>> easier.
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>
>> One can easily mark the extent of a page using the EXT 
>> selection (middle of Status Bar - EXT, ADD ,STD, BLK selection
>> modes). Don't forget a Page is a moveable feast, depending largely on
>> the text flow and the page size selected.
> 
> 
> I never knew I could do this with the item on the Status bar.  Thanks so much
> for the info.  I learn something new every day!
> 
> Dave
> 

Nor did I. Help ('extension mode in text') provides additional info:

Selection Mode
Displays the current selection mode. You can switch between STD =
Standard, EXT = Extend, ADD = Add, BLK = Block selection.
Each click in the field cycles through the available options:
Display
Mode
Effect
STD
Standard mode
Click in text where you want to position the cursor; click in a cell to
make it the active cell. Any other selection is then deselected.
EXT
Extension mode (F8)
Clicking in the text extends or crops the current selection.
ADD
Additional selection mode (Shift+F8)
A new selection is added to an existing selection. The result is a
multiple selection.
BLK
Block selection mode (Ctrl+Shift+F8)
A block of text can be selected.



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Re: Suggestion for Writer

[J. David Boyd]

Rory O'Farrell  writes:

> On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:09:07 -0500
> dbo...@mmm.com (J. David Boyd) wrote:
>
>> "f.carbon...@libero.it"  writes:
>> 
>> > New command in "File" 'Save page'. The possibility to save single page
>> > from .odt document in another .odt file. For example: document.odt
>> > with 35 pages. I want save page 14 of this document only. With 'Save
>> > page', I can do. With avanzate service, insert the command for save
>> > pages from page x to page y in another .odt document.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Fabio
>> 
>> I like the sound of that.  I'm not sure I would need it all the time, as I 
>> can
>> always select and copy and save a page, but it would make some things easier.
>> 
>> Dave
>
> One can easily mark the extent of a page using the EXT 
> selection (middle of Status Bar - EXT, ADD ,STD, BLK selection
> modes). Don't forget a Page is a moveable feast, depending largely on
> the text flow and the page size selected.


I never knew I could do this with the item on the Status bar.  Thanks so much
for the info.  I learn something new every day!

Dave


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Re: Suggestion for Writer

[Rory O'Farrell]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:09:07 -0500
dbo...@mmm.com (J. David Boyd) wrote:

> "f.carbon...@libero.it"  writes:
> 
> > New command in "File" 'Save page'. The possibility to save single page
> > from .odt document in another .odt file. For example: document.odt
> > with 35 pages. I want save page 14 of this document only. With 'Save
> > page', I can do. With avanzate service, insert the command for save
> > pages from page x to page y in another .odt document.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fabio
> 
> I like the sound of that.  I'm not sure I would need it all the time, as I can
> always select and copy and save a page, but it would make some things easier.
> 
> Dave

One can easily mark the extent of a page using the EXT 
selection (middle of Status Bar - EXT, ADD ,STD, BLK selection modes). Don't 
forget a Page is a moveable feast, depending largely on the text flow and the 
page size selected.

-- 
Rory O'Farrell 

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Re: Suggestion for Writer

[J. David Boyd]

"f.carbon...@libero.it"  writes:

> New command in "File" 'Save page'. The possibility to save single page
> from .odt document in another .odt file. For example: document.odt
> with 35 pages. I want save page 14 of this document only. With 'Save
> page', I can do. With avanzate service, insert the command for save
> pages from page x to page y in another .odt document.
>
>
>
> Fabio

I like the sound of that.  I'm not sure I would need it all the time, as I can
always select and copy and save a page, but it would make some things easier.

Dave


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Suggestion for Writer

[f.carbon...@libero.it]

New command in "File"  'Save page'. The possibility to save single page from 
.odt document in another .odt file. For example: document.odt with 35 pages. I 
want save page 14 of this document only. With 'Save page', I can do. With 
avanzate service, insert the command for save pages from page x to page y in 
another .odt document.



Fabio

Re: Suggestion.

[Richard Detwiler]

Doug wrote:
One use of Reveal Codes will tell you whether a tab or a set of spaces 
is used in a text. Also, to spot double spaces, if you don't
just do a find/replace to get rid of them. I think this kind of use 
could be done in OO or LO just as well. 


Just to clarify, and as I think most users of OpenOffice realize, these 
particular things will be shown fine using View > Non-printing 
characters (or Ctrl+F10). So there is no need for any additional "reveal 
code" features for these items. (I'm not saying there are no other needs 
for reveal codes.)



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Re: Suggestion.

[Alan B]

On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Doug  wrote:

>
> On 05/23/2014 08:43 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
>> On 2014-05-23, 3:43 PM japples wrote:
>>
>>  /snip/
>
>  There is a huge difference between showing non-printing characters and
>> showing formatting codes. Saying AOO shows non-printing characters is
>> similar to WP reveal codes is ridiculous.
>>
>>  Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples other
>>> than ones I have given above).  The OO's limited source has been the topic
>>> for requesting to expand.  The ability to edit is there just not in a
>>> separate window as WP.  I don't know if OO has the ability to edit a text
>>> box but someone with more time and energy could respond.
>>>
>>
>> Using reveal non-printing charters in AOO does not show any formatting
>> codes.  The purpose of WP reveal codes is to change the documents
>> formatting (font size and type, bold, italic, underline, superscript, etc).
>>  There is no similarity to AOO.
>>
>>

> I have found the Reveal Codes feature to be most useful in finding oddball
> things that may have come in with an imported file, and to debug minor
> mishaps that are
> not obvious from just looking at the text. One use of Reveal Codes will
> tell you whether a tab or a set of spaces is used in a text. Also, to spot
> double spaces, if you don't
>
> I'm in agreement w Larry. Finding extra/misplaced characters, non-printing
or otherwise, is not at all equivalent to reveal codes. With reveal codes
it is/was possible to literally see where formatting or styles were applied
in a document. It would "reveal" such things as two different formats
applied one after the other to a block of text which would help make
apparent why removing one type of formatting didn't cause the text to be
displayed as expected.

e.g. a whole bunch of textsome other text.

Remove  and "some other text" would now display as  not 
as would be expected when reveal codes was off. But turn on reveal codes
and it became immediately apparent why the text was not displaying as
expected.

Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

yes, voting is how you officially indicate your interest

On 05/23/2014 03:39 AM, Helen wrote:

I'd love the reveal codes feature -- didn't know there was a vote until I
ran across this.


On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <
and...@pitonyak.org> wrote:


On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:


So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires
casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is
cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.


That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the
need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to
implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a
knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution)
to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed
software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time /
energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature
must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general
usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that
saying "copy from WP" is sufficient.

Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the
CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation.

https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature.
WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to
put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little
spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know
that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a
handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I
lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other
requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes
towards it.

https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395



Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.
  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is
a very helpful tool.

Jack


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: Suggestion.

[Doug]

On 05/23/2014 08:43 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:

On 2014-05-23, 3:43 PM japples wrote:


/snip/

There is a huge difference between showing non-printing characters and 
showing formatting codes. Saying AOO shows non-printing characters is 
similar to WP reveal codes is ridiculous.


Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples 
other than ones I have given above).  The OO's limited source has 
been the topic for requesting to expand.  The ability to edit is 
there just not in a separate window as WP.  I don't know if OO has 
the ability to edit a text box but someone with more time and energy 
could respond. 


Using reveal non-printing charters in AOO does not show any formatting 
codes.  The purpose of WP reveal codes is to change the documents 
formatting (font size and type, bold, italic, underline, superscript, 
etc).  There is no similarity to AOO.


I must respectfully disagree. All of the formatting in WP is modifiable 
from the menus at the top of the page, and simple format changes, like 
bold, italic, underline
are available from the keyboard in the same fashion that is found in 
virtually all modern word processors or text writers. Font and font size 
are also modifiable from
the heading structure. (What are those top lines, which occur in just 
about all GUI programs, including Firefox and Thunderbird, called, 
anyway?) Real format tricks,

like small caps can be found in the pull-down menus.

I have found the Reveal Codes feature to be most useful in finding 
oddball things that may have come in with an imported file, and to debug 
minor mishaps that are
not obvious from just looking at the text. One use of Reveal Codes will 
tell you whether a tab or a set of spaces is used in a text. Also, to 
spot double spaces, if you don't
just do a find/replace to get rid of them. I think this kind of use 
could be done in OO or LO just as well.


--doug

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Re: Suggestion.

[Greg Madden]

On Friday 23 May 2014 13:43:21 you wrote:
> Larry, I understand your words.  For now, this is the closest OO has
> to WP reveal codes.
>
> Look closely and you will see some of the codes shown with OO are
> also shown in WP reveal codes window.  Point being, you don't have to
> have a separate window to view / edit codes.
>
> One other point, WP Reveal Codes are non-printable.  WP uses " <> "
> for space and OO uses "."; WP uses "HRT" for hard return and OO uses
> the old symbol (pre computer) for a new paragraph.
>
> Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples
> other than ones I have given above).  The OO's limited source has
> been the topic for requesting to expand.  The ability to edit is
> there just not in a separate window as WP.  I don't know if OO has
> the ability to edit a text box but someone with more time and energy
> could respond.
>
> Jack
>
> Larry Gusaas wrote:
> > On 2014-05-23, 9:07 AM japples wrote:
> >> I do apologize for not being more clear about where I found the
> >> "codes" OO has that are similar to the WP codes.
> >> Open OO Writer, find the icon that looks similar to the manual
> >> (before computer) editing symbol for new paragraph.  Click on it
> >> to expose the codes or simply ctrl+F10.
> >
> > ctrl+F10 shows Non-Printing Charactors. That is not comparable to
> > WP's reveal codes.

butinski...

Ive read this thread, and for the context of "Reveal Codes " most folks 
are 'not' talking aboout the small subset of features supplied by 
AOO's 'non-printing characters', not even obtusley, imho.

quote Larry
" That is not comparable to  WP's reveal codes."

Quote Japples:
"Now tell me again how there are no similarities"

Big difference between "no" and "comparable"

I currently have a vm of WP8 in a NT4 image. Love it, more for nostalgia 
than production.
-- 
Peace,

Greg

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Re: Suggestion.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2014-05-23, 3:43 PM japples wrote:

Larry, I understand your words.  For now, this is the closest OO has to WP 
reveal codes.
Look closely and you will see some of the codes shown with OO are also shown in WP reveal 
codes window.  Point being, you don't have to have a separate window to view / edit codes.


One other point, WP Reveal Codes are non-printable.  WP uses " <> " for space and OO uses 
"."; WP uses "HRT" for hard return and OO uses the old symbol (pre computer) for a new 
paragraph.


There is a huge difference between showing non-printing characters and showing formatting 
codes. Saying AOO shows non-printing characters is similar to WP reveal codes is ridiculous.


Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples other than ones I have 
given above).  The OO's limited source has been the topic for requesting to expand.  The 
ability to edit is there just not in a separate window as WP.  I don't know if OO has the 
ability to edit a text box but someone with more time and energy could respond. 


Using reveal non-printing charters in AOO does not show any formatting codes.  The purpose of 
WP reveal codes is to change the documents formatting (font size and type, bold, italic, 
underline, superscript, etc).  There is no similarity to AOO.


--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese



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Re: Suggestion.

[Doug]

On 05/23/2014 05:43 PM, japples wrote:
Larry, I understand your words.  For now, this is the closest OO has 
to WP reveal codes.
Look closely and you will see some of the codes shown with OO are also 
shown in WP reveal codes window.  Point being, you don't have to have 
a separate window to view / edit codes.


One other point, WP Reveal Codes are non-printable.  WP uses " <> " 
for space and OO uses "."; WP uses "HRT" for hard return and OO uses 
the old symbol (pre computer) for a new paragraph.

The name of the  ¶  sign is "pilcrow."

--doug

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Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

Larry, I understand your words.  For now, this is the closest OO has to 
WP reveal codes. 

Look closely and you will see some of the codes shown with OO are also 
shown in WP reveal codes window.  Point being, you don't have to have a 
separate window to view / edit codes.


One other point, WP Reveal Codes are non-printable.  WP uses " <> " for 
space and OO uses "."; WP uses "HRT" for hard return and OO uses the old 
symbol (pre computer) for a new paragraph.


Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples other 
than ones I have given above).  The OO's limited source has been the 
topic for requesting to expand.  The ability to edit is there just not 
in a separate window as WP.  I don't know if OO has the ability to edit 
a text box but someone with more time and energy could respond.


Jack


Larry Gusaas wrote:

On 2014-05-23, 9:07 AM japples wrote:
I do apologize for not being more clear about where I found the 
"codes" OO has that are similar to the WP codes.
Open OO Writer, find the icon that looks similar to the manual 
(before computer) editing symbol for new paragraph.  Click on it to 
expose the codes or simply ctrl+F10. 


ctrl+F10 shows Non-Printing Charactors. That is not comparable to WP's 
reveal codes.

Re: Suggestion.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2014-05-23, 9:07 AM japples wrote:
I do apologize for not being more clear about where I found the "codes" OO has that are 
similar to the WP codes.
Open OO Writer, find the icon that looks similar to the manual (before computer) editing 
symbol for new paragraph.  Click on it to expose the codes or simply ctrl+F10. 


ctrl+F10 shows Non-Printing Charactors. That is not comparable to WP's reveal 
codes.

--
_

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese



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Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

Dan, like you, I am very tired of people talking about things such as 
the "content.xml file in the zipped ODT file" which doesn't seem to be a 
function in the standard tool bar such as Edit, Copy, Paste etc.


I do apologize for not being more clear about where I found the "codes" 
OO has that are similar to the WP codes. 

Open OO Writer, find the icon that looks similar to the manual (before 
computer) editing symbol for new paragraph.  Click on it to expose the 
codes or simply ctrl+F10.


Thank you for your kind request for clarification
Jack


Dan Lewis wrote:

On 05/22/2014 04:15 PM, japples wrote:



Urmas wrote:

"japples":


A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
document and make corrections on the spot.


I've never used WP, but basing on Wiki images, it shows mostly 
useless stuff like linebreaks and spaces. Do you want to see where 
each formatting run begins and ends?


May I suggest you use the real deal rather than accepting an 
explanation by a third party - listening to a third party is similar 
to listening to gossip rather than finding out for yourself.  Most of 
the time you will find gossip is a mix of truth and fantasy.  Last 
comment, OO has similar codes revealed and, personally, I have used 
them for over 30 years and find them most helpful.  In the past, I 
was able to help co-workers who used a product without ability to see 
codes.  They spent hours trying to fix a document that took me less 
than 10 minutes.


 Once again I read about that someone has done something without 
saying what they did nor how. What codes are you talking about in OO 
better known (supposedly) as AOO? Are you talking about the 
content.xml file in the zipped ODT file?


--Dan

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Re: Suggestion.

[Dan Lewis]

On 05/22/2014 04:15 PM, japples wrote:



Urmas wrote:

"japples":


A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
document and make corrections on the spot.


I've never used WP, but basing on Wiki images, it shows mostly 
useless stuff like linebreaks and spaces. Do you want to see where 
each formatting run begins and ends?


May I suggest you use the real deal rather than accepting an 
explanation by a third party - listening to a third party is similar 
to listening to gossip rather than finding out for yourself.  Most of 
the time you will find gossip is a mix of truth and fantasy.  Last 
comment, OO has similar codes revealed and, personally, I have used 
them for over 30 years and find them most helpful.  In the past, I was 
able to help co-workers who used a product without ability to see 
codes.  They spent hours trying to fix a document that took me less 
than 10 minutes.


 Once again I read about that someone has done something without 
saying what they did nor how. What codes are you talking about in OO 
better known (supposedly) as AOO? Are you talking about the content.xml 
file in the zipped ODT file?


--Dan

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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Helen]

I'd love the reveal codes feature -- didn't know there was a vote until I
ran across this.


On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <
and...@pitonyak.org> wrote:

>
> On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:
>
>> So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires
>> casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
>> possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
>> consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is
>> cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
>>
>
> That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the
> need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to
> implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a
> knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution)
> to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed
> software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time /
> energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature
> must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general
> usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that
> saying "copy from WP" is sufficient.
>
> Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
> hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the
> CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation.
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
>
> So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
> Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature.
> WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to
> put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little
> spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know
> that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a
> handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I
> lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other
> requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes
> towards it.
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395
>
>
>> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.
>>  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is
>> a very helpful tool.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>
> --
> Andrew Pitonyak
> My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
> Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
>
>
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>
>


-- 
Helen Etters
using Linux, suse12.3

Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

Urmas wrote:

"japples":


A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
document and make corrections on the spot.


I've never used WP, but basing on Wiki images, it shows mostly useless 
stuff like linebreaks and spaces. Do you want to see where each 
formatting run begins and ends?


May I suggest you use the real deal rather than accepting an explanation 
by a third party - listening to a third party is similar to listening to 
gossip rather than finding out for yourself.  Most of the time you will 
find gossip is a mix of truth and fantasy.  Last comment, OO has similar 
codes revealed and, personally, I have used them for over 30 years and 
find them most helpful.  In the past, I was able to help co-workers who 
used a product without ability to see codes.  They spent hours trying to 
fix a document that took me less than 10 minutes.



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Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

Doug wrote:  See below your note


On 05/22/2014 04:22 AM, japples wrote:
How red faced am I . . . I finally put aside a portion of my mindset 
and can now can see OO's "reveal codes" - amazing how easy it is not 
to see the forest for the trees.  Could not see OO codes because they 
did not appear as I was accustomed to viewing (periods look like dust 
specks on my monitor).




How?
Almost equal to the super deep red "Black Baccara" rose.  I am able to 
admit to my mistakes knowing there is a list member who delights in 
attempting to make me feel inferior / signs his notes with his name 
followed by "private" .  I'll never know if he tries to contact me again 
- anything connected with him is deleted before it reaches me.

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Re: Suggestion.

[Urmas]

"japples":


A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
document and make corrections on the spot.


I've never used WP, but basing on Wiki images, it shows mostly useless stuff 
like linebreaks and spaces. Do you want to see where each formatting run 
begins and ends? 




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Re: Suggestion.

[Doug]

On 05/22/2014 04:22 AM, japples wrote:
How red faced am I . . . I finally put aside a portion of my mindset 
and can now can see OO's "reveal codes" - amazing how easy it is not 
to see the forest for the trees.  Could not see OO codes because they 
did not appear as I was accustomed to viewing (periods look like dust 
specks on my monitor).




How?

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Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

How red faced am I . . . I finally put aside a portion of my mindset and 
can now can see OO's "reveal codes" - amazing how easy it is not to see 
the forest for the trees.  Could not see OO codes because they did not 
appear as I was accustomed to viewing (periods look like dust specks on 
my monitor).


Jack

Wheels on elephant skates only allow forward movement
They lock thus preventing backward motion



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Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

On Wednesday 21 May 2014 05:14:33 PM mt wrote:
> On 20/5/14 at 3:02 PM, bbyfi...@axion.net (Bruce Byfield) wrote:
> >
> >
> >Sorry -- you're waa behind the times. The vast majority of
> >books published these days use a layout program -- sometimes,
> >even, LibreOffice -- and the publishers set it using tools like
> >styles. ...
> 
> This is true, Bruce. But you can always set apart books that
> have been manually adjusted from books that rely on automatic layout.
> 
> Guess which are the most professional-looking? :-)

Sure, and they can be a joy to own.

However, I would point out:

- Manual layouts for books are usually done on pre-digital presses, not on a 
computer.

- What singles out manually-set books isn't that they are set manually, but 
that time and effort is devoted to making everything perfect. It's the care, 
not the technique that matters. In theory, you could take the same care with a 
digital file, but neither manual formatters nor users of styles generally do 
so. More often, both settle for what is good enough.

- The question of manual formatting vs. style comes down to a matter of which 
can save you the most time while presenting the higher standard of layout. You 
probably still have to tweak finishing details if you use styles, but you 
generally have less to do, and can finish the tweaks more quickly and with less 
effort than if you rely on manual formatting.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

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Re: Suggestion.

[James Knott]

On 05/20/2014 10:22 PM, Urmas wrote:
> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
> because
> it means doing more work than necessary

If anyone knows perverse, it would be Urmas.  ;-)

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Re: Suggestion.

[Tom Backer Johnsen]

At least two (probably more) of the books I have in my shelf are produced 
entirely by a system widely used in the sciences, LaTeX, in combination with 
other software like RStudio, R, and a package for R called knitr. As far as I 
understand, page layout, headers, footers, references, everything.  No tweaking 
afterwards.  LaTeX is a beautiful tool.  Steep learning curve, but with 
anything more than a few pages long, definitely worth the investment in the 
long run.

Tom

On 21. May 2014, at 07:02 , Bruce Byfield  wrote:

> On Wednesday 21 May 2014 09:22:08 AM Urmas wrote:
>> "Bruce Byfield":
>> 
>> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
>> because
>> it means doing more work than necessary
>> 
>> Take any book from your shelf.
>> The number of lines on each page was adjusted manually.
>> The hyphenation and letter spacing were adjusted manually.
>> Paragraph spacing was adjusted manually.
>> The height of each footnote was adjusted manually.
>> Each illustration was placed manually.
> 
> 
> Sorry -- you're waa behind the times. The vast majority of books 
> published 
> these days use a layout program -- sometimes, even, LibreOffice -- and the 
> publishers set it using tools like styles. I've worked with several different 
> publishers, and I can tell you that the industry standards are fairly 
> consistent.
> 
> The only books in which everything is done manually are made by small 
> presses, 
> usually working with a pre-digital press. Such books tend to be expensive 
> because they are so time-consuming to produce.
> 
> Chances are, you yourself don't do manually all the things you mention when 
> you use LibreOffice. You might tweak a hyphenation break here and there, or 
> kern 
> a couple of characters, but I would be very surprised to learn that you went 
> character by character over all your documents. 
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
> blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
> website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
> 
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Tom Backer Johnsen
Søndre Steinkjellersmauet 7
5003 Bergen
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Email: backer(at)psych.uib.no


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Re: Suggestion.

[mt]

On 20/5/14 at 3:02 PM, bbyfi...@axion.net (Bruce Byfield) wrote:




Sorry -- you're waa behind the times. The vast majority of 
books published these days use a layout program -- sometimes, 
even, LibreOffice -- and the publishers set it using tools like 
styles. ...





This is true, Bruce. But you can always set apart books that 
have been manually adjusted from books that rely on automatic layout.


Guess which are the most professional-looking? :-)

Bottom line is that there is no "perfect automation". Which is 
exactly why many users request more efficient ways to "interact" 
with the software.


Now I don't know whether we should make a distinction between 
"requirement" and "request" in this case... but it seems to me 
that whitewashing it altogether might not be the best approach.


marina
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Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

On Wednesday 21 May 2014 09:22:08 AM Urmas wrote:
> "Bruce Byfield":
> 
> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
> because
> it means doing more work than necessary
> 
> Take any book from your shelf.
> The number of lines on each page was adjusted manually.
> The hyphenation and letter spacing were adjusted manually.
> Paragraph spacing was adjusted manually.
> The height of each footnote was adjusted manually.
> Each illustration was placed manually.


Sorry -- you're waa behind the times. The vast majority of books published 
these days use a layout program -- sometimes, even, LibreOffice -- and the 
publishers set it using tools like styles. I've worked with several different 
publishers, and I can tell you that the industry standards are fairly 
consistent.

The only books in which everything is done manually are made by small presses, 
usually working with a pre-digital press. Such books tend to be expensive 
because they are so time-consuming to produce.

Chances are, you yourself don't do manually all the things you mention when 
you use LibreOffice. You might tweak a hyphenation break here and there, or 
kern 
a couple of characters, but I would be very surprised to learn that you went 
character by character over all your documents. 

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

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Re: Suggestion.

[Urmas]

"Bruce Byfield":

Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse, 
because

it means doing more work than necessary

Take any book from your shelf.
The number of lines on each page was adjusted manually.
The hyphenation and letter spacing were adjusted manually.
Paragraph spacing was adjusted manually.
The height of each footnote was adjusted manually.
Each illustration was placed manually.

Manual formatting is essential. 




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Re: Suggestion.

[Martin Groenescheij]

On 21-5-2014 10:28, japples wrote:
Martin, to put it more simply, you prefer to post the styles / 
definitions of a document as a cheat sheet rather than see the code in 
real time and where located in your document (reveal codes).  Very 
inefficient to take eyes off of the document to search for "style 
definitions" then go back to document to "fix" the problem and 
possibly create a clash with imported document or another style 
definition.
To be honest, I don't prefer anything, because I believe I master 
Styles. All I tried to address is that we should not be blind for 
requirements of others and see if we can come up with a solution to 
assist users who have problems with Styles.


A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in 
document and make corrections on the spot.  Also, using this type of 
reveal code window eliminates the possibility of creating a 
conflicting style definition.


This whole thing reminds me of when I started writing web pages. In 
short order I began to see how limiting wysiwyg (ie, styles) was yet I 
was unable to move to a more efficient method until that mindset 
changed.  If the mind is closed, nothing can be accomplished.
Opening a Reveal Codes window to correct document is more efficient 
and less problematic than working with styles.  Per your description, 
a list of styles can be opened to identify what part of the rule is 
creating the problem.   Reveal Codes allows to see the code causing 
the problem plus eliminates guessing related to conflicting styles.


Perhaps when all the mindsets are put into neutral, an option that is 
intuitive, efficient, has low risk of creating other document 
problems, will come to light.


Another comparison of styles vs reveal codes is the automobile 
transmissions.  The manual is similar to working with style 
definitions while the automatic is more like working with reveal codes.


The above is not saying adding "reveal codes" to OO is the thing to 
do; however, those with open minds seem to be projecting a more 
efficient way to handle documents.
Nor is it saying anyone understanding the value of reveal codes and 
capable of the work required to add it to OO, won't be driven to drink 
or start staring at spinning spiral disks in a room of alternating 
color spotlights highlighting the pink spotted elephant chorus line.


Jack









Doug Johnson wrote:

And your not even involving columns and tables, etc., yet!

A page can get very complex.



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Martin Groenescheij <
mar...@groenescheij.com> wrote:

For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find
this the best way to control my documents.

Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing
Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes 
before

he master Styles.

Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited
properties from parent Styles.
Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems 
when you

have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.

Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of
expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they 
need is
something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me 
to Avoid

Making Mistakes".

One of the simple things that could help users is information of each
property within a Style that shows from which Style
the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style
Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and
Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze
the formatting issues.


Heading 1
Font
FontInherited from Heading
TypefaceBold
Size115%
LanguageInherited from Default
Font Effects
Font Color  Inherited from Default
Effects Inherited from Default
Relief  Inherited from Default
Outline Inherited from Default
Shadow  Inherited from Default
BlinkingInherited from Default
Hidden  Inherited from Default
Overlining  Inherited from Default
StriketroughInherited from Default
Underlining Inherited from Default
Alignment
LeftInherited from Default
Right   Inherited from Default
Center  Inherited from Default
Justified   Inherited from Default
Indent and Spacing
Before Text 0.76
After Text  Inherited from Default
First Line  -0.76
Automatic   Inherited from Default
Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
Line SpacingInherited from Default
Active  Inherited from Default



On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:


Sir / Madam,
For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and
Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never 
found a
better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found 
that

satisfies most of my requirements.

Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

Martin, to put it more simply, you prefer to post the styles / 
definitions of a document as a cheat sheet rather than see the code in 
real time and where located in your document (reveal codes).  Very 
inefficient to take eyes off of the document to search for "style 
definitions" then go back to document to "fix" the problem and possibly 
create a clash with imported document or another style definition.


A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in 
document and make corrections on the spot.  Also, using this type of 
reveal code window eliminates the possibility of creating a conflicting 
style definition.


This whole thing reminds me of when I started writing web pages.  In 
short order I began to see how limiting wysiwyg (ie, styles) was yet I 
was unable to move to a more efficient method until that mindset 
changed.  If the mind is closed, nothing can be accomplished. 

Opening a Reveal Codes window to correct document is more efficient and 
less problematic than working with styles.  Per your description, a list 
of styles can be opened to identify what part of the rule is creating 
the problem.   Reveal Codes allows to see the code causing the problem 
plus eliminates guessing related to conflicting styles.


Perhaps when all the mindsets are put into neutral, an option that is 
intuitive, efficient, has low risk of creating other document problems, 
will come to light.


Another comparison of styles vs reveal codes is the automobile 
transmissions.  The manual is similar to working with style definitions 
while the automatic is more like working with reveal codes.


The above is not saying adding "reveal codes" to OO is the thing to do; 
however, those with open minds seem to be projecting a more efficient 
way to handle documents. 

Nor is it saying anyone understanding the value of reveal codes and 
capable of the work required to add it to OO, won't be driven to drink 
or start staring at spinning spiral disks in a room of alternating color 
spotlights highlighting the pink spotted elephant chorus line.


Jack









Doug Johnson wrote:

And your not even involving columns and tables, etc., yet!

A page can get very complex.



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Martin Groenescheij <
mar...@groenescheij.com> wrote:
  

For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find
this the best way to control my documents.

Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing
Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes before
he master Styles.

Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited
properties from parent Styles.
Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems when you
have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.

Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of
expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they need is
something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me to Avoid
Making Mistakes".

One of the simple things that could help users is information of each
property within a Style that shows from which Style
the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style
Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and
Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze
the formatting issues.


Heading 1
Font
FontInherited from Heading
TypefaceBold
Size115%
LanguageInherited from Default
Font Effects
Font Color  Inherited from Default
Effects Inherited from Default
Relief  Inherited from Default
Outline Inherited from Default
Shadow  Inherited from Default
BlinkingInherited from Default
Hidden  Inherited from Default
Overlining  Inherited from Default
StriketroughInherited from Default
Underlining Inherited from Default
Alignment
LeftInherited from Default
Right   Inherited from Default
Center  Inherited from Default
Justified   Inherited from Default
Indent and Spacing
Before Text 0.76
After Text  Inherited from Default
First Line  -0.76
Automatic   Inherited from Default
Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
Line SpacingInherited from Default
Active  Inherited from Default



On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:



Sir / Madam,
For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and
Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a
better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that
satisfies most of my requirements.
However there is one very important property (if that's the right
word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have
used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was
made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard retu

Re: Suggestion.

[Doug Johnson]

And your not even involving columns and tables, etc., yet!

A page can get very complex.



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Martin Groenescheij <
mar...@groenescheij.com> wrote:

> For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find
> this the best way to control my documents.
>
> Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing
> Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes before
> he master Styles.
>
> Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited
> properties from parent Styles.
> Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems when you
> have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.
>
> Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of
> expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they need is
> something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me to Avoid
> Making Mistakes".
>
> One of the simple things that could help users is information of each
> property within a Style that shows from which Style
> the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style
> Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
> Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and
> Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze
> the formatting issues.
>
>
> Heading 1
> Font
> FontInherited from Heading
> TypefaceBold
> Size115%
> LanguageInherited from Default
> Font Effects
> Font Color  Inherited from Default
> Effects Inherited from Default
> Relief  Inherited from Default
> Outline Inherited from Default
> Shadow  Inherited from Default
> BlinkingInherited from Default
> Hidden  Inherited from Default
> Overlining  Inherited from Default
> StriketroughInherited from Default
> Underlining Inherited from Default
> Alignment
> LeftInherited from Default
> Right   Inherited from Default
> Center  Inherited from Default
> Justified   Inherited from Default
> Indent and Spacing
> Before Text 0.76
> After Text  Inherited from Default
> First Line  -0.76
> Automatic   Inherited from Default
> Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
> Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
> Line SpacingInherited from Default
> Active  Inherited from Default
>
>
>
> On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:
>
>> Sir / Madam,
>> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and
>> Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a
>> better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that
>> satisfies most of my requirements.
>> However there is one very important property (if that's the right
>> word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have
>> used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was
>> made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was
>> "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you
>> required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I
>> don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
>> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice?
>> It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others
>> who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
>> Gordon Lee.
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Suggestion.

[Julian Thomas]

On 20 May 2014, at 03:52, mt  wrote:

> The best style manual I have come across was the ancient Hakon Wium Lie's CSS 
> book - and in fact, it's been easier for me to master styles in writer 
> applications after grasping the CSS concept. Of course experience with HTML 
> (from version 1...) also helped greatly, in terms of understanding how to 
> design "structured documents".

Duh!  I know and use CSS but it took this posting to beat me over the head and 
see the similarity. Allovassudden it looks intuitive to me - I think I'm off to 
the races now!

Many many thanks!  jt
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Re: Suggestion.

[mt]

On 19/5/14 at 12:05 PM, j...@jt-mj.net (Julian Thomas) wrote:


 Is there a better manual than the online help that I'm missing?

cheers - jt




The best style manual I have come across was the ancient Hakon 
Wium Lie's CSS book - and in fact, it's been easier for me to 
master styles in writer applications after grasping the CSS 
concept. Of course experience with HTML (from version 1...) also 
helped greatly, in terms of understanding how to design 
"structured documents".


It might be easier for you, too, to understand Styles if you 
look at your document's structure: headings, normal paragraphs, 
indented paragraphs, bullet or number lists can all be defined 
as individual "paragraph styles", which then become available 
for other parts of the document. Or, if you save these styles to 
a style library, for all other documents. Similarly, you can 
define "character styles" for things like bold, italic, or 
coloured text that does not span the whole extent of a paragraph.


I found it was easier for me to work with my own styles. If you 
take the "New style based on selection" approach, you'll be able 
to see how attributes are assigned.


I know this is very rough... hope it helps a little bit!

marina
---
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@martadiello



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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Julian Thomas]

On 19 May 2014, at 09:38, 許哲崇  wrote:

> If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
> what is the problem?

lack of a current wordperfect and why should we pay for it if we are committed 
to OO?  jt
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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Julian Thomas]

On 19 May 2014, at 03:34, mt  wrote:

> Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the 
> "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). 
> I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding 
> that something like that is what people asking for "Reveal codes" might find 
> useful.
> 
> As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two 
> ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So 
> if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who 
> do not understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the 
> program.

Ah, but WordPress creates HTML pages - open one in a text editor and all is 
revealed [a knowledge of html is a prerequisite].

I am not amongst those who are demanding the 'reveal codes' feature - at least 
now, but I do think that an essential part of the development process IS 
providing useful tutorials or guides in addition to reference manuals.  Arcane 
reference manuals went out in the late 1960's!

jt - digital curmudgeon since the mid 1950's.
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Re: Suggestion.

[Julian Thomas]

On 16 May 2014, at 03:12, mt  wrote:

> Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used to 
> learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and after 
> investing many hours doing just that, I have found that using styles can save 
> some time with complex documents.
> 
> (I write and translate books, so using styles was "forced" on me by my 
> editors, a dozen years ago or so. As of today, I am still sort of unsure what 
> amount of time I have *effectively* saved by learning how to use styles - but 
> I was given no option, and now that I've grown accustomed to styles, it's 
> possible I am starting to save time. Twelve years, and many books down the 
> track!  >:]  )
> 
> To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to me that you 
> are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like you don't really know 
> WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to be something other than it was.

Thanks for the support.  I used WordPerfect from the days when it came from 
Satellite Systems [or something like that before wordperfect corp - if you were 
there then you may remember Pete Peterson's 'bedtime stories' on the compuserve 
forum] and used it through WP 6 on DOS until they abandoned OS2 and I went in 
other directions.  Have been on OO since the early days of Star Office for OS2; 
now I've moved to Mac OSX.

I've had the same frustration with other word processors [most prominently 
DeScribe] where again the issue of 'reveal codes' was hotly debated in the 
discussion groups.

I don't care about the d**n codes themselves; I just need to know what 
formatting is applied how and where [and how to adjust it]!  In WP you could 
actually edit the codes [delete a code was the most useful] and fix the 
document.

If anyone cares, I *think* I can fire up an old wordperfect 6 dos session and 
get a screen shot of what reveal codes looks like.

I'm not opposed to the use of styles, but need a shorter learning curve than
 
> 
> I'm used to learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, 
> and after investing many hours doing just that

Is there a better manual than the online help that I'm missing?

cheers - jt


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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:

If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
what is the problem?

No problem at all... :-)

The potential issue is that loading in a different editor will cause 
slightly different things to be displayed (at least that is my 
experience based on different formats, especially if there is something 
tricky or complicated about the text).


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Jim McLaughlin]

All the more reason why the open source community operating under the
Apache umbrella should add a "Reveal Codes" analog to OO.


On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Doug  wrote:

>
> On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:
>
>> If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
>> what is the problem?
>>
>>
>>
>>  The problem is that most versions of WordPerfect don't run on Linux.
> (WordPerfect 12 word processor only will run, but can't read the latest
> Microsoft formats. Also, it may be difficult to find the program.)
>
> --doug
>
>
>
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>

Re: Suggestion.

[randyf]

Hello Dan Lewis,

Sorry for the intrusion, my network some how received your e-mail. 
Have a Wonderful Day!

Randy Fisher
http://randy.simpleadvantage.net
613-483-8345


Sent from Samsung Mobile

 Original message From: Dan Lewis 
 Date:05/16/2014  7:02 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: Suggestion. 

On 05/14/2014 10:17 PM, Julian Thomas wrote:
> On 14 May 2014, at 09:38, mt  wrote:
>
>> While I have learned how to (use and) appreciate the Styles features, I 
>> agree that not everything in every given text document is prone to being 
>> "styled".
> As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles.  I'd still 
> like to see some helpful information on how to get started with styles 
> (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I tried those tutorials and they 
> didn't work very well for me]) and a reference.
>
> jt
>
>
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>
  Chapter 6 and 7 of the Writer Guide available at this link:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Writer_Guide

--Dan

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Re: Suggestion.

[randyf]

Hello Julian Thomas,

Sorry for the intrusion, my network some how received your e-mail. 
Have a Wonderful Day!

Randy Fisher
http://randy.simpleadvantage.net
613-483-8345


Sent from Samsung Mobile

 Original message From: Julian Thomas 
 Date:05/16/2014  10:42 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: Suggestion. 


On 15 May 2014, at 07:15, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> We are preparing new documentation under the Apache License here:
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide/Writer/Styles
> Feel free to review and improve it. If you need a wiki account, just ask here 
> (this applies to everybody on this list, of course).

went there, found this:

> About the List Styles and How to Use Them
> 
> We already talked about numbered lists and bullets as manual formatting. This 
> method, while quick to implement for a single list becomes a problem when we 
> need several lists, all of them maintaining consistency in formatting: here 
> is where the use of list styles is important. List styles are particular in 
> Writer, because they are never applied directly: even when manually applying 
> a list style, all we get is the paragraph calling the list style.

> Indeed, the list styles are always called from a paragraph, either through 
> direct formatting or with the use of styles. In fact, when editing a 
> paragraph style (or the format for a particular paragraph) on the Outline & 
> Numbering tab we have a "Numbering Style" drop down menu: selecting an 
> existing list style the paragraph style (or the particular paragraph) we are 
> modifying will be numbered with the list style.

Sigh. This is hardly what I would call a tutorial.  I am not [yet] competent to 
improve this since I am struggling mightily to get the basics of list style 
formatting.

Thanks.  When this is brought up to snuff, it should help with these issues 
that desperately need to be un-arcaned [if I may coin a word].

What I want to be able to do is a list like this:

1.  blah
2.  blech
   *  blech2
3. Ugh

and then be able to go back to 1 and insert a bullet underneath it, or enter a 
bulleted item under 3
    * Ugga

and then be able to go back and enter

4. Yuck

OO does not deal well with this; I find that if I don't do 4. Yuck before I do 
3. * ugga, the numbering and alignment is all messed up.

Try it - you won't like it!

jt


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Re: Suggestion.

[randyf]

Hello Mr. Detwiler,

Sorry for the intrusion, my network some how received your e-mail. 
Have a Wonderful Day!

Randy Fisher
http://randy.simpleadvantage.net
613-483-8345

Sent from Samsung Mobile

 Original message From: Richard Detwiler 
 Date:05/18/2014  8:07 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: Suggestion. 

Not to argue, but just to mention my experiences -- I do "on the spot" 
formatting on many occasions and I've never felt hampered by not having 
the "reveal codes" capability. Also, I've used styles on many other 
occasions, and likewise have never felt hampered by not having "reveal 
codes".

I DO find it helpful on many occasions to use the View > Non-printing 
characters (also accessed by clicking on the "paragraph" symbol button, 
or selecting Ctrl+F10) feature, to see where hard returns are, where 
spaces are, etc. Especially when editing text that someone else created, 
in particular one person who submits to the newsletter that I edit 
where, rather than using tabs to create a table-like format, he uses 
spaces.

Based on a post of someone else, it seems like some of the features that 
this person was complaining about not having in Open Office are in fact 
achievable by the View > Non-printing characters feature.

Doug Johnson wrote:
> I agree with the "On the spot" need.  Quite simply, Reveal Codes allows me
> to see what's going with a glance.
>
> With so many features, the interaction between them can make formatting
> unexpectedly difficult.
>
> Like salt and pepper, use when needed!
>
>
> On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Richard Detwiler  wrote:
>
>> What I don't understand, and I'm sure I must be missing something so
>> please explain, is how come this discussion seems to suggest that it's
>> either/or -- meaning, "use styles for all formatting" or "we HAVE to have
>> "reveal codes" to not use styles".
>>
>> I've used styles a lot with Open Office and I greatly appreciate how
>> valuable they can be; for example, I edit a newsletter and styles have made
>> my life way easier and made the resulting newsletter way more consistent.
>>
>> On the other hand, there are many places, in smaller documents, where I
>> want to format something on the spot without setting up styles -- changing
>> the spacing between paragraphs, making some text bold, indenting a
>> paragraph, etc., and I often do that without using styles. And it works
>> just fine.
>>
>> So if someone wants to use styles, they can use them. If someone doesn't
>> want to use styles and do formatting on the spot without going through
>> styles, that can be done too. So why the implied necessity for "reveal
>> codes" for people who choose not to use styles?
>>
>>
>> Jim McLaughlin wrote:
>>
>>> This has been a  very interesting thread.
>>>
>>> It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
>>> so months I've been a subscrber to this group.
>>>
>>> What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
>>> "orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
>>> codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
>>> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
>>> "styles " approach.
>>>
>>> Food for thought.
>>>
>>> If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
>>> attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel
>>> products,
>>> those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
>>> providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
>>> rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed
>>> here
>>> so far.
>>>
>>> Not trying to start a pissing contest.  Just pointing out what the
>>> admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.
>>>
>>> Is there a  technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can
>>> not
>>> be implemented in 5.x.x?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug  wrote:
>>>
>>>   On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>>>>   On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
>>>>>   At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>>>>>>   In general, and from a user's perspective, Sty

Re: Suggestion.

[randyf]

Hello,

Sorry for the intrusion, my network some how received your e-mail. 
Have a Wonderful Day!

Randy Fisher
http://randy.simpleadvantage.net
613-483-8345

Sent from Samsung Mobile

 Original message From: Martin Groenescheij 
 Date:05/18/2014  8:06 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: users@openoffice.apache.org Cc: 
mar...@groenescheij.com Subject: Re: Suggestion. 
For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find 
this the best way to control my documents.

Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing 
Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes 
before he master Styles.

Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited 
properties from parent Styles.
Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems when 
you have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.

Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of 
expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they need 
is something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me to 
Avoid Making Mistakes".

One of the simple things that could help users is information of each 
property within a Style that shows from which Style
the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style 
Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and 
Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze
the formatting issues.


Heading 1
Font
Font Inherited from Heading
Typeface Bold
Size 115%
Language Inherited from Default
Font Effects
Font Color Inherited from Default
Effects Inherited from Default
Relief Inherited from Default
Outline Inherited from Default
Shadow Inherited from Default
Blinking Inherited from Default
Hidden Inherited from Default
Overlining Inherited from Default
Striketrough Inherited from Default
Underlining Inherited from Default
Alignment
Left Inherited from Default
Right Inherited from Default
Center Inherited from Default
Justified Inherited from Default
Indent and Spacing
Before Text 0.76
After Text Inherited from Default
First Line -0.76
Automatic Inherited from Default
Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
Line Spacing Inherited from Default
Active Inherited from Default


On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:
> Sir / Madam,
> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and Desktop Publisher 
> to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better program. As I 
> now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that satisfies most of my 
> requirements.
> However there is one very important property (if that's the right word) that 
> WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have used. That is 
> what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was made in the 
> document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was "HRT". If this 
> was not what was wanted then you could make the change you required. Or as 
> sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I don't understand, 
> I have no way of finding out why.
> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice? It would 
> enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others who still 
> hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
> Gordon Lee.
>
>
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>
>

Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Doug]

On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:

If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
what is the problem?




The problem is that most versions of WordPerfect don't run on Linux.
(WordPerfect 12 word processor only will run, but can't read the latest
Microsoft formats. Also, it may be difficult to find the program.)

--doug


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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[許哲崇]

If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
what is the problem?


2014-05-19 20:17 GMT+08:00 Andrew Douglas Pitonyak :

>
> On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:
>
>> So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires
>> casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
>> possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
>> consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is
>> cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
>>
>
> That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the
> need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to
> implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a
> knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution)
> to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed
> software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time /
> energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature
> must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general
> usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that
> saying "copy from WP" is sufficient.
>
> Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
> hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the
> CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation.
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
>
> So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
> Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature.
> WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to
> put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels a little
> spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know
> that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a
> handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I
> lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other
> requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes
> towards it.
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395
>
>
>
>> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.
>>  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is
>> a very helpful tool.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>
> --
> Andrew Pitonyak
> My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
> Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
>
>
>
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>
>

Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:
So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which 
requires casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable 
their use and possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules 
or show consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code 
feature which is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of 
creating conflicts.


That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate 
the need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more 
difficult to implement. I think that the real problem is that it 
requires a knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code 
the solution) to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, 
community developed software. So, the trick is to convince a particular 
person to spend time / energy on that particular feature. In this case, 
it means that the feature must be first designed, since a design does 
not exist, and, the general usage pattern is sufficiently different, 
that it is not obvious to me that saying "copy from WP" is sufficient.


Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the 
hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on 
the CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for 
implementation.


https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen. 
Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the 
feature. WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want 
it enough to put one of their "votes" towards it in over 10 years feels 
a little spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do 
not know that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't 
have a handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, 
and I lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative 
to other requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their 
votes towards it.


https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.html&bug_id=3395



Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view 
code.  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing 
the codes is a very helpful tool.


Jack


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Steve's G-Mail]

Allow me to add my 'two-pence worth’ to this important discussion.

Seems to me that it has been well-explained earlier that a ‘reveal codes’-like 
solution (apparently as in WordPerfect) is not readily achievable within OO, as 
the formatting controls of OO don’t lend themselves to such a solution (either 
technically, or in a way that would enable users to achieve what they want).

IMHO, it’s clear from this correspondence that getting formats right can be a 
difficult task for many users, both casual and not (I regard myself as 
mid-point, but it can be difficult and frustrating - I don’t knowingly use 
styles). I particularly find nested lists (very difficult to achieve 
consistently to what I want (although I’m a big fan of OO generally).

I recommend the approach to the OO development team to start with a requirement 
to improve the formatting handling (particularly lists) - maybe that simple 
requirement can be generally shared by most contributors - without mandating 
any particular solution. That should give the developers the licence to examine 
any type of solution that will improve this apparently contentious and 
difficult area.

Best to all, Steve


On 19 May 2014, at 11:11, japples  wrote:

> So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires 
> casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and 
> possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show 
> consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is 
> cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
> 
> Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.  
> Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is a 
> very helpful tool.
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
> mt wrote:
>> Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to criticise 
>> styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful.
>> 
>> There are however situations where styles might not help. For example, when 
>> troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or section 
>> options, or when special (manual) character formatting has been applied to 
>> styled paragraphs: this is where "reveal codes" can come in handy. Also, 
>> typically, "Reveal codes" was used by someone other than the original 
>> author... funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main 
>> reason why we had to use "Reveal codes" back when WordPerfect was the 
>> standard!
>> 
>> Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the 
>> "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). 
>> I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding 
>> that something like that is what people asking for "Reveal codes" might find 
>> useful.
>> 
>> As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two 
>> ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So 
>> if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who 
>> do not understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the 
>> program.
>> 
>> Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can "take the 
>> user's perspective" is to listen to end users themselves. Ideally... without 
>> expecting them to be computer literate or (worse) accusing them to not put 
>> in the necessary time/effort to learn how to use the program.
>> 
>> Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end (& dumb? 
>> :-) users.
>> 
>> marina
>> ---
>> MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
>> @martadiello
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3722/7012 - Release Date: 05/17/14
>> 
>> 
>> 

Best Regards,
Steve Caine



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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires 
casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and 
possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show 
consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which 
is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.


Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view 
code.  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the 
codes is a very helpful tool.


Jack


mt wrote:
Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to 
criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful.


There are however situations where styles might not help. For example, 
when troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or 
section options, or when special (manual) character formatting has 
been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where "reveal codes" can 
come in handy. Also, typically, "Reveal codes" was used by someone 
other than the original author... funny this has never been mentioned, 
given that it was the main reason why we had to use "Reveal codes" 
back when WordPerfect was the standard!


Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the 
"Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | 
Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my 
understanding that something like that is what people asking for 
"Reveal codes" might find useful.


As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, 
these two ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily 
mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to 
be explained to us users, who do not understand, nor want to know, 
about the "inner workings" of the program.


Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can "take 
the user's perspective" is to listen to end users themselves. 
Ideally... without expecting them to be computer literate or (worse) 
accusing them to not put in the necessary time/effort to learn how to 
use the program.


Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end (& 
dumb? :-) users.


marina
---
MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
@martadiello



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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3722/7012 - Release Date: 05/17/14

Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[mt]

Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant 
to criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally 
find useful.


There are however situations where styles might not help. For 
example, when troubleshooting document formatting problems such 
as page or section options, or when special (manual) character 
formatting has been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where 
"reveal codes" can come in handy. Also, typically, "Reveal 
codes" was used by someone other than the original author... 
funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main 
reason why we had to use "Reveal codes" back when WordPerfect 
was the standard!


Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is 
in the "Write/Edit Post" interface in WordPress, with its two 
tabs (Visual | Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in 
OO - but it is my understanding that something like that is what 
people asking for "Reveal codes" might find useful.


As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already 
suggested, these two ways of looking at a written page are not 
necessarily mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this 
is what needs to be explained to us users, who do not 
understand, nor want to know, about the "inner workings" of the program.


Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can 
"take the user's perspective" is to listen to end users 
themselves. Ideally... without expecting them to be computer 
literate or (worse) accusing them to not put in the necessary 
time/effort to learn how to use the program.


Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as 
end (& dumb? :-) users.


marina
---
MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
@martadiello



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Re: Suggestion.

[Martin Groenescheij]

For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find 
this the best way to control my documents.


Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing 
Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes 
before he master Styles.


Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited 
properties from parent Styles.
Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems when 
you have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.


Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of 
expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they need 
is something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me to 
Avoid Making Mistakes".


One of the simple things that could help users is information of each 
property within a Style that shows from which Style
the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style 
Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and 
Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze

the formatting issues.


Heading 1
Font
FontInherited from Heading
TypefaceBold
Size115%
LanguageInherited from Default
Font Effects
Font Color  Inherited from Default
Effects Inherited from Default
Relief  Inherited from Default
Outline Inherited from Default
Shadow  Inherited from Default
BlinkingInherited from Default
Hidden  Inherited from Default
Overlining  Inherited from Default
StriketroughInherited from Default
Underlining Inherited from Default
Alignment
LeftInherited from Default
Right   Inherited from Default
Center  Inherited from Default
Justified   Inherited from Default
Indent and Spacing
Before Text 0.76
After Text  Inherited from Default
First Line  -0.76
Automatic   Inherited from Default
Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
Line SpacingInherited from Default
Active  Inherited from Default


On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:

Sir / Madam,
For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and Desktop 
Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better program. 
As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that satisfies most of my 
requirements.
However there is one very important property (if that's the right word) that WP had that is 
missing from all the Word Processors that I have used. That is what WP called "Reveal 
Codes", where every change that was made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: 
Hard return was "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you 
required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I don't understand, I have 
no way of finding out why.
Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice? It 
would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others who 
still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
Gordon Lee.


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Re: Suggestion.

[Richard Detwiler]

Not to argue, but just to mention my experiences -- I do "on the spot" 
formatting on many occasions and I've never felt hampered by not having 
the "reveal codes" capability. Also, I've used styles on many other 
occasions, and likewise have never felt hampered by not having "reveal 
codes".


I DO find it helpful on many occasions to use the View > Non-printing 
characters (also accessed by clicking on the "paragraph" symbol button, 
or selecting Ctrl+F10) feature, to see where hard returns are, where 
spaces are, etc. Especially when editing text that someone else created, 
in particular one person who submits to the newsletter that I edit 
where, rather than using tabs to create a table-like format, he uses 
spaces.


Based on a post of someone else, it seems like some of the features that 
this person was complaining about not having in Open Office are in fact 
achievable by the View > Non-printing characters feature.


Doug Johnson wrote:

I agree with the "On the spot" need.  Quite simply, Reveal Codes allows me
to see what's going with a glance.

With so many features, the interaction between them can make formatting
unexpectedly difficult.

Like salt and pepper, use when needed!


On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Richard Detwiler  wrote:


What I don't understand, and I'm sure I must be missing something so
please explain, is how come this discussion seems to suggest that it's
either/or -- meaning, "use styles for all formatting" or "we HAVE to have
"reveal codes" to not use styles".

I've used styles a lot with Open Office and I greatly appreciate how
valuable they can be; for example, I edit a newsletter and styles have made
my life way easier and made the resulting newsletter way more consistent.

On the other hand, there are many places, in smaller documents, where I
want to format something on the spot without setting up styles -- changing
the spacing between paragraphs, making some text bold, indenting a
paragraph, etc., and I often do that without using styles. And it works
just fine.

So if someone wants to use styles, they can use them. If someone doesn't
want to use styles and do formatting on the spot without going through
styles, that can be done too. So why the implied necessity for "reveal
codes" for people who choose not to use styles?


Jim McLaughlin wrote:


This has been a  very interesting thread.

It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
so months I've been a subscrber to this group.

What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
"orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
"styles " approach.

Food for thought.

If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel
products,
those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed
here
so far.

Not trying to start a pissing contest.  Just pointing out what the
admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.

Is there a  technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can
not
be implemented in 5.x.x?


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug  wrote:

  On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:

  On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:

  At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:

  In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of

how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
and behave like computers.

  Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of

perverse,


because
it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
important features.

Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book
I'm in
the middle of completing:

"Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than
thirty
years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.

"Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can
format a
document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned
is to
do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
available.

"It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them
and
coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get
things
done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some
tasks, like
going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited
view."

   I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I


probably
never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I mi

Re: Suggestion.

[Doug Johnson]

I agree with the "On the spot" need.  Quite simply, Reveal Codes allows me
to see what's going with a glance.

With so many features, the interaction between them can make formatting
unexpectedly difficult.

Like salt and pepper, use when needed!


On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Richard Detwiler  wrote:

> What I don't understand, and I'm sure I must be missing something so
> please explain, is how come this discussion seems to suggest that it's
> either/or -- meaning, "use styles for all formatting" or "we HAVE to have
> "reveal codes" to not use styles".
>
> I've used styles a lot with Open Office and I greatly appreciate how
> valuable they can be; for example, I edit a newsletter and styles have made
> my life way easier and made the resulting newsletter way more consistent.
>
> On the other hand, there are many places, in smaller documents, where I
> want to format something on the spot without setting up styles -- changing
> the spacing between paragraphs, making some text bold, indenting a
> paragraph, etc., and I often do that without using styles. And it works
> just fine.
>
> So if someone wants to use styles, they can use them. If someone doesn't
> want to use styles and do formatting on the spot without going through
> styles, that can be done too. So why the implied necessity for "reveal
> codes" for people who choose not to use styles?
>
>
> Jim McLaughlin wrote:
>
>> This has been a  very interesting thread.
>>
>> It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
>> so months I've been a subscrber to this group.
>>
>> What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
>> "orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
>> codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
>> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
>> "styles " approach.
>>
>> Food for thought.
>>
>> If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
>> attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel
>> products,
>> those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
>> providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
>> rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed
>> here
>> so far.
>>
>> Not trying to start a pissing contest.  Just pointing out what the
>> admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.
>>
>> Is there a  technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can
>> not
>> be implemented in 5.x.x?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug  wrote:
>>
>>  On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:

  At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>
>  In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
>> how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
>> and behave like computers.
>>
>>  Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of
> perverse,
>
 because
 it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
 important features.

 Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book
 I'm in
 the middle of completing:

 "Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than
 thirty
 years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.

 "Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can
 format a
 document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned
 is to
 do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
 available.

 "It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them
 and
 coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get
 things
 done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some
 tasks, like
 going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited
 view."

   I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I

>>> probably
>>> never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
>>> I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
>>> bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages"
>>> or
>>> whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
>>> at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
>>> my text.  I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
>>> no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
>>> format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
>>> don't write books, or edit them  or publish them, i don't need a desktop
>>> publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.
>>>
>>> 

Re: Suggestion.

[Richard Detwiler]

What I don't understand, and I'm sure I must be missing something so 
please explain, is how come this discussion seems to suggest that it's 
either/or -- meaning, "use styles for all formatting" or "we HAVE to 
have "reveal codes" to not use styles".


I've used styles a lot with Open Office and I greatly appreciate how 
valuable they can be; for example, I edit a newsletter and styles have 
made my life way easier and made the resulting newsletter way more 
consistent.


On the other hand, there are many places, in smaller documents, where I 
want to format something on the spot without setting up styles -- 
changing the spacing between paragraphs, making some text bold, 
indenting a paragraph, etc., and I often do that without using styles. 
And it works just fine.


So if someone wants to use styles, they can use them. If someone doesn't 
want to use styles and do formatting on the spot without going through 
styles, that can be done too. So why the implied necessity for "reveal 
codes" for people who choose not to use styles?


Jim McLaughlin wrote:

This has been a  very interesting thread.

It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
so months I've been a subscrber to this group.

What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
"orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
"styles " approach.

Food for thought.

If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel products,
those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed here
so far.

Not trying to start a pissing contest.  Just pointing out what the
admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.

Is there a  technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can not
be implemented in 5.x.x?


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug  wrote:


On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:


On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:


At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:


In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
and behave like computers.


Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,

because
it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
important features.

Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book
I'm in
the middle of completing:

"Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than
thirty
years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.

"Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can
format a
document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned
is to
do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
available.

"It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them and
coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get
things
done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some
tasks, like
going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited
view."

  I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I

probably
never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages" or
whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
my text.  I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
don't write books, or edit them  or publish them, i don't need a desktop
publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.

On the other hand, if I needed a desktop publisher, and didn't want to
or could not afford to purchase a "professional" one, I would certainly
look at the possibility of learning and using OO/LO. From what I read
in these lists, that would be a real possibility. Someone who is willing to
spend the time to actually write a book can probably afford the time to
learn desktop publishing.

One more thing: I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from
learning OO/LO, if that's what they want. I am, however, pointing out
that it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
metallurgy!

I res

Re: Suggestion.

[Rory O'Farrell]

On Sat, 17 May 2014 00:18:32 -0700
Bruce Byfield  wrote:

> On Saturday 17 May 2014 12:32:43 AM Doug wrote:
> 
> > My beef is that when you find something weird happening, it's likely to
> > be because of some "style" that you weren't aware of, and _you can't fix
> > it, because__
> > __it's built into the "style." _ 
> 
> Are your experiences with styles  with someone else's template, or else one 
> that has been developed by a lot of different people with no attempt at 
> consistency? I'm asking because these are the only scenarios in which I can 
> imagine the difficulties you describe.
> 
> Apart from the default style and a few advanced cases like the Content styles 
> that are automatically applied when you create a table of contents, styles 
> are 
> not just randomly applied. They're in the document because you put them 
> there, 
> and you can see them in the Applied Styles view of the Styles and Formatting 
> window. So how could you not be aware of them?
> 
> As for features that are part of a style, I can't think of any offhand that 
> can't be adjusted, turned off, or at least set to zero. To the contrary, you 
> can set most settings with extreme accuracy. 
> 
> The closest thing that I can imagine to things you can't change because 
> they're built into the style are defaults that suddenly come in play because 
> you've made some change. For example, in Draw, if you add text to an object, 
> suddenly settings like font and font size are activated that previously did 
> nothing. But it should be obvious when you've added something like that.
> 
> > PS: I don't intend to memorize a whole bunch of "styles"--I did my last
> > memorization with WordStar in CPM and then in DOS.
> 
> Why would you have to memorize anything? You can preview styles in the 
> toolbar, and use the views in the Styles and Formatting window to find what 
> you 
> want. Usually, too, the names of the pre-defined styles should tell you what 
> each style does. For example, Text Body is obviously the main paragraph style 
> in the document, and Title the name of the document.
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
> blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
> website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

On the English language forum there is a useful list and details of the inbuilt 
Styles
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=48530


-- 
Rory O'Farrell 

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Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

On Saturday 17 May 2014 12:32:43 AM Doug wrote:

> My beef is that when you find something weird happening, it's likely to
> be because of some "style" that you weren't aware of, and _you can't fix
> it, because__
> __it's built into the "style." _ 

Are your experiences with styles  with someone else's template, or else one 
that has been developed by a lot of different people with no attempt at 
consistency? I'm asking because these are the only scenarios in which I can 
imagine the difficulties you describe.

Apart from the default style and a few advanced cases like the Content styles 
that are automatically applied when you create a table of contents, styles are 
not just randomly applied. They're in the document because you put them there, 
and you can see them in the Applied Styles view of the Styles and Formatting 
window. So how could you not be aware of them?

As for features that are part of a style, I can't think of any offhand that 
can't be adjusted, turned off, or at least set to zero. To the contrary, you 
can set most settings with extreme accuracy. 

The closest thing that I can imagine to things you can't change because 
they're built into the style are defaults that suddenly come in play because 
you've made some change. For example, in Draw, if you add text to an object, 
suddenly settings like font and font size are activated that previously did 
nothing. But it should be obvious when you've added something like that.

> PS: I don't intend to memorize a whole bunch of "styles"--I did my last
> memorization with WordStar in CPM and then in DOS.

Why would you have to memorize anything? You can preview styles in the 
toolbar, and use the views in the Styles and Formatting window to find what you 
want. Usually, too, the names of the pre-defined styles should tell you what 
each style does. For example, Text Body is obviously the main paragraph style 
in the document, and Title the name of the document.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

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Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

> On 05/16/2014 03:12 AM, mt wrote:
 
> > To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to me
> > that you are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like you don't
> > really know WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to be something
> > other than it was.

In my case, what is "quite obvious" is wrong. I used WordPerfect for a number 
of years, including writing my thesis in it. I hated Reveal Codes, finding it 
clunky and time-consuming.
 
> > But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me.

I've been a user of OpenOffice since the 1.0 release -- for over 12 years. 
Surely you aren't suggesting that it isn't for people like me just as much?

> > If  people like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the
> > programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or
> > shouldn't it??

Yes and no. 

On the one hand, everyone wants the program to be useful. That's why bug-filing 
include suggestions for enhancement. I've got one or two I'd like to see 
realized myself.

On the other hand, working on OpenOffice is not a job for all the developers, 
and, besides, there's a long tradition in free software of working on what 
interests you, even if you're getting paid.

Furthermore, as in most free software projects, there is always far more to do 
than people to do it. Those involved have to decide what priority requests 
have, how complicated they are to implement, and how they complement the 
existing code. For instance, would any existing feature have to be re-written 
to be compatible with the proposed new one?

In the case of a Reveal Codes feature, there has historically been a lack of 
interest in implementing it and some complications involved that, so far, no 
one has wanted to tackle. It's not a feature that someone is likely undertake 
because it can implemented in a couple of hours.

So it's not just enough for one or two people to express a wish for a feature 
and then sit back and wait for the developers to fulfill their wishes.

If you really want to see a Reveal Codes feature, you need to start a 
campaign, not just requesting it, but also developing use cases that explain 
why it is important, and learning enough to suggest possible approaches that 
can overcome the challenges of implementing it. You need to convince people 
that the feature should have priority.. That's how free software works, and, 
from what I have seen while reading mailing lists, OpenOffice is no exception.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

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Re: Suggestion.

[Catherine RIOBÉ]

please dont send me emails any more. I am a particular person.


Le 17 mai 2014 à 05:24, Bruce Byfield a écrit :

> On Friday 16 May 2014 10:28:44 PM Julian Thomas wrote:
>>> But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. If people
>>> like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the
>>> programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or
>>> shouldn't it??
>> On 16 May 2014, at 03:12, mt  wrote:
>>> Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used to
>>> learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and
>>> after investing many hours doing just that, I have found that using
>>> styles can save some time with complex documents.
>> As I said earlier, I'm struggling with styles [since it seems to be the way
>> to go, I need to get up to speed] but need something more than 'my pets'
>> and 'my cats' - particularly with regard to list formatting [mixing
>> numbered lists and bulleted subitems under the numbered items; this has
>> always been a major hassle without styles].
> 
> Have you looked at the ODF Author's site? You should find some decent 
> documentation there.
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
> blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
> website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
> 
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Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

On Friday 16 May 2014 11:35:46 PM James Knott wrote:
> On 05/16/2014 09:29 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
> > If people don't want to learn how to use Writer the way it was designed,
> > they might be better off with some simpler tool.
> 
> Notepad?  ;-)


:-) 

But I didn't say that to put anyone down.

It's just that if someone is going to stay with manual formatting, there's a 
lot of things in Writer that will be irrelevant to them.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

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Re: Suggestion.

[Doug]

On 05/16/2014 03:12 AM, mt wrote:

On 14/5/14 at 12:17 PM, j...@jt-mj.net (Julian Thomas) wrote:



As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles. I'd 
still like to see some helpful information on how to get started with 
styles (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I tried those tutorials 
and they didn't work very well for me]) and a reference.




Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used 
to learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, 
and after investing many hours doing just that, I have found that 
using styles can save some time with complex documents.


(I write and translate books, so using styles was "forced" on me by my 
editors, a dozen years ago or so. As of today, I am still sort of 
unsure what amount of time I have *effectively* saved by learning how 
to use styles - but I was given no option, and now that I've grown 
accustomed to styles, it's possible I am starting to save time. Twelve 
years, and many books down the track! >:]  )


To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to me 
that you are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like you don't 
really know WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to be something 
other than it was.


But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. If 
people like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the 
programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or 
shouldn't it??


Again, I would like to say thank you to those who give their time for 
free to build and improve OpenOffice. This includes those who put 
forward useful suggestions "from the user's perspective" :-)


marina

I had really intended not to comment on this again, having thought I had 
said it all, but I guess I was wrong.
My beef is not particularly about reveal codes, altho that's certainly 
useful, when you want to find something weird happening at the end of a 
line, say.
My beef is that when you find something weird happening, it's likely to 
be because of some "style" that you weren't aware of, and _you can't fix 
it, because__
__it's built into the "style." _ I think I said something like this in 
my first post on the subject, but maybe i did not make myself clear.
So, yes, I want a somewhat intelligent typewriter, and no, I don't see 
anything at all wrong with that!


--doug

PS: I don't intend to memorize a whole bunch of "styles"--I did my last 
memorization with WordStar in CPM and then in DOS.

Re: Suggestion.

[James Knott]

On 05/16/2014 09:29 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
> If people don't want to learn how to use Writer the way it was designed, they 
> might be better off with some simpler tool.

Notepad?  ;-)


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Re: Suggestion.

[Julian Thomas]

> But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. If people 
> like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the programmer's 
> job to consider it from the user's perspective... or shouldn't it??
On 16 May 2014, at 03:12, mt  wrote:

> Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used to 
> learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and after 
> investing many hours doing just that, I have found that using styles can save 
> some time with complex documents.

As I said earlier, I'm struggling with styles [since it seems to be the way to 
go, I need to get up to speed] but need something more than 'my pets' and 'my 
cats' - particularly with regard to list formatting [mixing numbered lists and 
bulleted subitems under the numbered items; this has always been a major hassle 
without styles].


Features without good documentation are barely usable.



jt


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Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

Thank you for the links.  I understood less than 5% of what I read.

Not sure if I gleamed this correctly or not; however, it seems WP and OO 
are different platforms (?) so adding a reveal code feature would 
require OO to be totally re-written. 

Personally, I find reveal codes very helpful yet haven't learned how 
style rules can provide help with these functions:


   Example: when creating a document there might be a soft-return
   making the document look correct on the screen / in print preview
   but skewed when printed.  In reveal codes, can find soft returns /
   hard returns; soft change of page / hard change of page.

   Example: double spacing between some words (my hand gets tired,
   rests on the space bar ever now and then) is easier to find these
   extra spaces via reveal codes.

   Example: finding / editing text box is easier with reveal codes. 
   There can be more than one Text box in no particular order but

   easily identified in reveal codes.  Another plus, the identified
   Text box can be edited in the reveal code window.



Bruce Byfield wrote:
By the way, the idea of a Reveal Codes feature goes way back - over a decade, 
in fact:


https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

And a discussion of the issues involved with implementing it:

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Reveal_Codes_-_Alternative_for_OOo_Writer

Other discussion at LibreOffice:

http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.bugs/87075

  

Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

On Friday 16 May 2014 10:28:44 PM Julian Thomas wrote:
> > But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. If people
> > like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the
> > programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or
> > shouldn't it??
> On 16 May 2014, at 03:12, mt  wrote:
> > Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used to
> > learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and
> > after investing many hours doing just that, I have found that using
> > styles can save some time with complex documents.
> As I said earlier, I'm struggling with styles [since it seems to be the way
> to go, I need to get up to speed] but need something more than 'my pets'
> and 'my cats' - particularly with regard to list formatting [mixing
> numbered lists and bulleted subitems under the numbered items; this has
> always been a major hassle without styles].

Have you looked at the ODF Author's site? You should find some decent 
documentation there.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
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Re: Suggestion.

[Julian Thomas]

On 15 May 2014, at 07:15, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> We are preparing new documentation under the Apache License here:
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide/Writer/Styles
> Feel free to review and improve it. If you need a wiki account, just ask here 
> (this applies to everybody on this list, of course).

went there, found this:

> About the List Styles and How to Use Them
> 
> We already talked about numbered lists and bullets as manual formatting. This 
> method, while quick to implement for a single list becomes a problem when we 
> need several lists, all of them maintaining consistency in formatting: here 
> is where the use of list styles is important. List styles are particular in 
> Writer, because they are never applied directly: even when manually applying 
> a list style, all we get is the paragraph calling the list style.

> Indeed, the list styles are always called from a paragraph, either through 
> direct formatting or with the use of styles. In fact, when editing a 
> paragraph style (or the format for a particular paragraph) on the Outline & 
> Numbering tab we have a "Numbering Style" drop down menu: selecting an 
> existing list style the paragraph style (or the particular paragraph) we are 
> modifying will be numbered with the list style.

Sigh. This is hardly what I would call a tutorial.  I am not [yet] competent to 
improve this since I am struggling mightily to get the basics of list style 
formatting.

Thanks.  When this is brought up to snuff, it should help with these issues 
that desperately need to be un-arcaned [if I may coin a word].

What I want to be able to do is a list like this:

1.  blah
2.  blech
   *  blech2
3. Ugh

and then be able to go back to 1 and insert a bullet underneath it, or enter a 
bulleted item under 3
* Ugga

and then be able to go back and enter

4. Yuck

OO does not deal well with this; I find that if I don't do 4. Yuck before I do 
3. * ugga, the numbering and alignment is all messed up.

Try it - you won't like it!

jt


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Re: Suggestion.

[Peter Johansson]

On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 3:12 AM, mt  wrote:

> To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to me that you
> are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like you don't really know
> WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to be something other than it was.

I can't speak for the others, but as someone who worked helpdesk
support in the days of WordPerfect 4.2 I am well aware of what reveal
codes does.  Fixing peoples fubared documents in reveal codes what 90%
of that job.

If your word processor requires reveal codes to fix formatting issues
it is fundamentally flawed in other ways.  The proper fix is *not* to
add reveal codes, but rather to address the fundamental problems
directly so that reveal codes is not necessary in the first place.

-p.

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Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

On Thursday 15 May 2014 09:03:13 PM Jim McLaughlin wrote:

> the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option 

Really? I don't mean to be contentious, but I didn't see an overwhelming 
majority on either side.

> If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
> attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel products,
> those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
> providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
> rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed here
> so far.

All major office suites, including WordPefect, are most efficient when styles 
are 
used. OpenOffice Writer is an extreme example of using styles, but that's also 
what makes it so powerful. And for some people, like the writers of technical 
manuals, styles are absolutely essential for their work.

Writer does allow you to format manually, if you really insist. In fact, some 
innovations, such as the sidebar, chiefly aid manually formatting. However, I 
would hate, for example, to create a table of contents without heading styles; 
I would have to go through the entire document and create each entry one at a 
time, instead of having them ready to use when I want the TOC.

But you can only accommodate people's unwillingness to learn or to help 
themselves so far. You wouldn't expect to sit down and play a game without 
learning how it was structured, so why would you expect to do so with an office 
suite? Beyond a certain point, people have to help themselves.

If people don't want to learn how to use Writer the way it was designed, they 
might be better off with some simpler tool. AbiWord might be a good choice for 
such people; it's one of the few word processors I know that might be said to 
be oriented towards manual formatting.

 
> Is there a  technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can not
> be implemented in 5.x.x?

See my previous post about past discussions of the subject. One potential 
problem is that unlike WordPerfect, OpenOffice doesn't store information in a 
single file. An OpenOffice file is really a collection of several compressed 
files. 

Under these circumstances, a Reveal Code feature is not impossible, but it is 
more complicated than in WordPerfect. It means another way for files to corrupt 
as information passes back and forth between the actual files and the Reveal 
Code Screen, and would be high maintenance, since every new feature would 
require revisions to it.

I don't speak for anyone except myself. However, given that there is a lot to 
do already with maintaining and cleaning the aging code, I doubt that 
developers would make Reveal Codes a high priority unless there was a lot more 
enthusiasm that has been shown so far. 

-- 
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Re: Suggestion.

[Jim McLaughlin]

This has been a  very interesting thread.

It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
so months I've been a subscrber to this group.

What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
"orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
"styles " approach.

Food for thought.

If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel products,
those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed here
so far.

Not trying to start a pissing contest.  Just pointing out what the
admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.

Is there a  technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can not
be implemented in 5.x.x?


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug  wrote:

>
> On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
>>
>>> At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>>>
 In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
 how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
 and behave like computers.

>>> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
>> because
>> it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
>> important features.
>>
>> Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book
>> I'm in
>> the middle of completing:
>>
>> "Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than
>> thirty
>> years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.
>>
>> "Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can
>> format a
>> document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned
>> is to
>> do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
>> available.
>>
>> "It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them and
>> coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get
>> things
>> done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some
>> tasks, like
>> going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited
>> view."
>>
>>  I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I
> probably
> never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
> I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
> bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages" or
> whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
> at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
> my text.  I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
> no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
> format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
> don't write books, or edit them  or publish them, i don't need a desktop
> publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.
>
> On the other hand, if I needed a desktop publisher, and didn't want to
> or could not afford to purchase a "professional" one, I would certainly
> look at the possibility of learning and using OO/LO. From what I read
> in these lists, that would be a real possibility. Someone who is willing to
> spend the time to actually write a book can probably afford the time to
> learn desktop publishing.
>
> One more thing: I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from
> learning OO/LO, if that's what they want. I am, however, pointing out
> that it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
> metallurgy!
>
> I rest my case.
>
> --doug
>
>
>
>
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>

Re: Suggestion.

[Felmon Davis]

On Wed, 14 May 2014, Brian Barker wrote:



[...]

Have you ever been asked to double-space a document? Probably. Has anyone 
ever asked you instead to set double spacing at the beginning of the document 
and then turn it off at the end? Of course not: that's not how people think 
and speak!





[sorry for snipping so much context!]

I probably don't grasp your idea here but there's nothing unhuman 
about being asked to set double-spacing from one spot in a document to 
another (or more plausibly, to indent "from here to there").


of course this is a very good use for styles. I use both styles and 
direct formatting ('like a typewriter') according to my needs and 
purposes though since 'default formatting' is itself a 'style', I 
guess one always uses styles.


not directed at you specifically but I see no need to be dogmatic; I'm 
happy enough with using these tools to fit my needs but I definitely 
would love it if 'reveal codes' were possible as I've run across 
situations where there's a bit of code 'stuck' somewhere doing devilry 
and it's hard to find. cutting and pasting in again without formatting 
is clumsy.


F.


--
Felmon Davis

It's hard to keep your shirt on when you're getting something off your chest.

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Re: Suggestion.

[circulars]

Thinking on, all of the attributes of a style are listed in one of the 
organizer tab in the 'paragraph style' dialog, which would seem to go quite 
some way towards meeting the needs of those who liked the reveal codes feature. 
(It is accessible on a mac by control clicking in the style concerned, then 
selecting 'edit paragraph style... ' from the menu. Presumably a left (?) click 
on other operating systems.)
Maybe if this were more readily accessible via the drop down menus and an icon 
(neither seem to exist at present) and the facility flagged up prominently in 
help, including an entry titled 'reveal codes', this would help to keep folk 
happy?
More generally, am not sure the 'blame the user' approach which seems to be 
developing in this thread is constructive or conducive with community. Better 
we recognise that there is going to be a very wide diversity of abilities, 
opinions and ways of working amongst 100 million plus users, respect those, 
allow for flexibility where that can be reasonably achieved, and aim for a 
simple and intuitive user interface without the need for steep learning curves 
where they can possibly be avoided.

- Original Message -
From: Brian Barker
Sent: 05/14/14 05:29 PM
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion.

At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote: >In general, and from a 
user's perspective, Styles are one example of >how common users are encouraged 
(or forced? :-) to think ("program") >and behave like computers. It's perhaps 
worth pointing out that the truth is diametrically opposite to this claim! 
Users who ask to "reveal codes" are asking to look at the inner workings of the 
program and to see how (they perceive that) it and the computer actually work. 
Developers who offer facilities such as styles are allowing users to use 
programs and computers in the way *the users* think, not how the machinery 
does. If you want, say, a paragraph to be indented, you want the paragraph 
indented, pure and simple. And that's what styles allow you to say. If you 
prefer the codes, you need to say "Start indenting the text from this point 
onwards" and separately "Stop the indenting of text that you have been 
practising up to now". That's the way programs and computers may need to think, 
but it i
 s not the way real users do naturally. Have you ever been asked to 
double-space a document? Probably. Has anyone ever asked you instead to set 
double spacing at the beginning of the document and then turn it off at the 
end? Of course not: that's not how people think and speak! >This is not 
necessarily the best way to ensure "user satisfaction". 1. Remember that local 
formatting is still available: no-one is forced to use styles. 2. Many users 
are most satisfied using a word processor as if it were a typewriter. Their 
satisfaction should not be allowed to limit the advancement of software and 
facilities that can be appreciated by others. Brian Barker 
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Re: Suggestion

[Brian Barker]

At 18:03 15/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
I'm simply asking that user perspective is taken into consideration 
at least as much as the programmer's own. The starting point ought 
always to be that computers are there to aid humans. And not all 
humans take to computing as well as programmers do. It's just 
obvious to me - why should it sound so "strange" to programmers? :-)


Come, come: this is entirely a straw man! No-one writing user 
software fails to take users and their humanity into account - and 
you do the very kind developers of OpenOffice (with whom, for the 
avoidance of doubt, I have no connection) a serious disservice by 
suggesting that they do. The styles you deplore are surely designed 
with users and their needs in mind, not with any convenience of 
programming. Your desire for the software to be user-friendly is of 
course spot on, but your conclusion that this end is provided by 
"reveal codes" is totally wrong.


It's interesting that you failed to reply to my earlier comments (not 
that you have any responsibility to do so, of course) and that you 
excised my comments from the message to which you did reply (though 
unhelpfully leaving my name in). What should we deduce from this: 
that my suggestions were so much to the point that you cannot fault them?!


Since you are still asking for a low-level approach to word 
processing on the pretext of wanting a high-level approach, it may be 
worth exercising the argument further. There are three possible 
reasons, I suggest, for wanting "reveal codes".


1. The first is that you actually want to be able to see *how* the 
program works - in other words, you are a geek and want to think like 
a programmer, not like a true user. There is nothing wrong with that: 
it's like the person who buys a new gadget and wants - before s/he 
uses it - to take it apart and see not how to use it but how it 
actually works. This person, when they look at a car with the 
prospect of buying it, does not sit in the driving seat and get the 
feel of the controls, but instead opens the bonnet and starts 
fiddling with the engine components. You claim not to be this person, 
but you nevertheless ask to see the innards of the program.


2. The second possibility is that you are dissatisfied with the way 
that OpenOffice (in particular, Writer) displays the structure (as 
distinct from the appearance) of any document. You perhaps inherit a 
document from elsewhere and need to know how to modify it as you 
need. For that, you need to be able to see its structure. I have to 
say that I cannot disagree with such a suggestion! In case anyone 
doesn't know what I mean, let me give a simple example. Suppose you 
have two similar-looking tables with one immediately following the 
other - with no intervening element, that is. There is no easy way to 
see immediately that you have two tables and not just one, longer 
table. But the two cases behave differently, and you need to know 
which you have in order to be able to handle the document 
efficiently. (Yes, there are ways to see which you have, but they are 
indirect and not very obvious.) The solution to this, though, is to 
improve the display of document structure, not to ask to look inside 
the program. If you need to know when your car is low on fuel, you 
ask for a fuel gauge on the dashboard, not an external dipstick on 
the fuel tank.


3. When you revealed codes in Word Perfect, you could, I think, 
tinker with them: you could edit the codes directly, deleting one 
here and entering a new one there. Indeed, I think that was their 
purpose: Word Perfect would sometime get itself in a twist and end up 
with inconsistent tags in a document - and the solution offered by 
its developers was to show the user the internal workings of the 
program and insist that they tinkered with them to achieve what was 
necessary. In this way, they were insisting that users (temporarily?) 
became programmers, not (as you seem to think) the other way about. 
But as soon as you allow users to *modify* any such tags, you 
immediately lose the integrity of the tags: it's just as easy to 
delete one tag of a pair and leave the other or to add an unbalanced 
tag or to insert a misspelled one as to do something meaningful. Word 
Perfect offered a facility for you to sort out its mistakes, but what 
you are asking for is a recipe for users' creating confused and 
incorrect documents.


It's perhaps also worth saying that the idea of "reveal codes" 
implies the existence of such codes in the first place. In other 
words, you are assuming that the internal model of the program labels 
the structure through tags - as a mark-up language does. But this is 
only one way for programs and documents to behave - and many don't.


Do you know the best way? My ideal word processor would not be at all 
wysiwyg; instead it would concentrate on displaying pl

Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

By the way, the idea of a Reveal Codes feature goes way back - over a decade, 
in fact:

https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

And a discussion of the issues involved with implementing it:

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Reveal_Codes_-_Alternative_for_OOo_Writer

Other discussion at LibreOffice:

http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.bugs/87075

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

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Re: Suggestion.

[James Plante]

+1 on that, Bruce.

I've got a small stash of letters, memos, and technical docs (many just for my 
own use) that I keep; some of these were crafted in the 1.x version of 
OpenOffice. Most are version 3.x templates, though. They all still work, just 
as you describe.

Learning to use templates does not require an extensive amount of additional 
work. And if you mostly use the same type of document, e.g., an in-house memo 
form, then set that as the default template. You can always open a different 
one when you want to write a letter or a formal report. 

Jim Plante

On May 15, 2014, at 11:15 PM, Bruce Byfield  wrote:

> On Wednesday 14 May 2014 06:38:37 PM Doug wrote:
> 
> it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
>> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
>> metallurgy!
> 
> When I first started using OpenOffice.org well over a decade ago, I sat down 
> and 
> figured all the types of short documents I did, and developed templates for 
> them them. Some years ago, I imported them to ODF, and I am still using them 
> today.
> 
> Whenever I use those templates, I never have to think about formatting except 
> occasionally to change styles. Often, I don't even have to do that, because 
> of 
> the Next field automatically changes styles for me. The time I save on each 
> document is small, but over the years I must have saved days' worth of work 
> -- 
> and all because I took a little extra time once, years ago, to learn about 
> styles. So even if you're only doing short, one-off documents, styles can 
> save 
> you time and effort.
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
> blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
> website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
> 
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Re: Suggestion.

[Dan Lewis]

On 05/14/2014 10:17 PM, Julian Thomas wrote:

On 14 May 2014, at 09:38, mt  wrote:


While I have learned how to (use and) appreciate the Styles features, I agree that not 
everything in every given text document is prone to being "styled".

As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles.  I'd still like 
to see some helpful information on how to get started with styles (better than 
'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I tried those tutorials and they didn't work very 
well for me]) and a reference.

jt


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 Chapter 6 and 7 of the Writer Guide available at this link:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Writer_Guide

--Dan

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Re: Suggestion.

[Peter Johansson]

On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:03 AM, Jim McLaughlin
 wrote:

> What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
> "orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
> codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
> "styles " approach.

It is all a matter of where you want to spend your time.  Those who
prefer to spend it up front go with styles.  Those who don't prefer
embedded codes.  Those who prefer embedded codes rarely realize just
how much time they are wasting at the back end on every document, or
how much time they could be saving overall by learning how to use, and
then using styles.

Of course, it is not exactly as simple as this.  Personally, I learned
of and how to use the style model back in 1987 when I learned LaTeX as
that was the only way to drive the spiffy new DEC LN03 laser printer
at my university.  It was around that time when I replaced my Apple 2
with a 286 PC and quickly found WordPerfect absolutely horrid by
comparison.  To this day, I still prefer the semantic mark-up of LaTeX
for text-based document.

Sadly, as brutal as developing styles in TeX can be, developing styles
in a GUI/WYSIWYG is really not all that much better -- at least from
what I have seen from my casual investigation over the years.  But
another sad reality is that while anyone can put in the time and learn
how to use styles, not everyone can learn how to produce an
aesthetically pleasing design.

That said, it then becomes clear that the proper workflow model is to
have *one* person in an organization develop style sheets and then
require  everyone else to actually use them -- regardless of what
software you are using.  Sadly, this model seems to be rarely
implemented.

-p.

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Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

On Thursday 15 May 2014 06:03:34 PM mt wrote:
 
> I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm simply asking that user
> perspective is taken into consideration at least as much as the
> programmer's own.

So far as I'm concerned, anything that saves me time and effort is taking my 
perspective as a user into consideration.
 
> Also, your comments do not address the main point in my message,
> which was about "revealing codes" for document options that go
> beyond plain styling.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you give an example of "options that go 
beyond plain styling?" 

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

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Re: Suggestion.

[Bruce Byfield]

On Wednesday 14 May 2014 06:38:37 PM Doug wrote:

it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
> metallurgy!

When I first started using OpenOffice.org well over a decade ago, I sat down 
and 
figured all the types of short documents I did, and developed templates for 
them them. Some years ago, I imported them to ODF, and I am still using them 
today.

Whenever I use those templates, I never have to think about formatting except 
occasionally to change styles. Often, I don't even have to do that, because of 
the Next field automatically changes styles for me. The time I save on each 
document is small, but over the years I must have saved days' worth of work -- 
and all because I took a little extra time once, years ago, to learn about 
styles. So even if you're only doing short, one-off documents, styles can save 
you time and effort.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

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Re: Suggestion.

[mt]

On 14/5/14 at 4:12 AM, bbyfi...@axion.net (Bruce Byfield) wrote:


On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:

At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:

In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
and behave like computers.


Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of 
perverse, because it means doing more work than necessary, and 
cutting yourself off from important features.




Mh, this really depends.


Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to 
the book I'm in the middle of completing:


"Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after 
more than thirty years, few of us have bothered to learn how to 
use them.


"Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us 
can format a document and print it out, after a fashion. But 
what we haven't learned is to do these things efficiently, 
taking advantage of all the tools that are available.
"It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill 
in them and coast across level ground, but never learned about 
the ignition. We get things done, but with more effort and less 
efficiency that we should. Some tasks, like going uphill, we 
don't imagine are even possible because of our limited view."





I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm simply asking that user 
perspective is taken into consideration at least as much as the 
programmer's own.


The starting point ought always to be that computers are there 
to aid humans. And not all humans take to computing as well as 
programmers do. It's just obvious to me - why should it sound so 
"strange" to programmers? :-)


Also, your comments do not address the main point in my message, 
which was about "revealing codes" for document options that go 
beyond plain styling.


marina



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Re: Suggestion.

[Andrea Pescetti]

Julian Thomas wrote:

As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles.  I'd
still like to see some helpful information on how to get started with
styles (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I tried those tutorials
and they didn't work very well for me]) and a reference.


We are preparing new documentation under the Apache License here:
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide/Writer/Styles
Feel free to review and improve it. If you need a wiki account, just ask 
here (this applies to everybody on this list, of course).


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Suggestion.

[mt]

On 14/5/14 at 12:17 PM, j...@jt-mj.net (Julian Thomas) wrote:



As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles.  
I'd still like to see some helpful information on how to get 
started with styles (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I 
tried those tutorials and they didn't work very well for me]) 
and a reference.




Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm 
used to learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial 
and error, and after investing many hours doing just that, I 
have found that using styles can save some time with complex documents.


(I write and translate books, so using styles was "forced" on me 
by my editors, a dozen years ago or so. As of today, I am still 
sort of unsure what amount of time I have *effectively* saved by 
learning how to use styles - but I was given no option, and now 
that I've grown accustomed to styles, it's possible I am 
starting to save time. Twelve years, and many books down the 
track!  >:]  )


To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to 
me that you are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like 
you don't really know WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to 
be something other than it was.


But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. 
If people like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should 
be the programmer's job to consider it from the user's 
perspective... or shouldn't it??


Again, I would like to say thank you to those who give their 
time for free to build and improve OpenOffice. This includes 
those who put forward useful suggestions "from the user's 
perspective" :-)


marina


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Re: Suggestion.

[Doug]

On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:

On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:

At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:

In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
and behave like computers.

Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse, because
it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
important features.

Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book I'm in
the middle of completing:

"Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than thirty
years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.

"Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can format a
document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned is to
do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
available.

"It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them and
coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get things
done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some tasks, like
going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited view."


I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I probably
never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages" or
whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
my text.  I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
don't write books, or edit them  or publish them, i don't need a desktop
publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.

On the other hand, if I needed a desktop publisher, and didn't want to
or could not afford to purchase a "professional" one, I would certainly
look at the possibility of learning and using OO/LO. From what I read
in these lists, that would be a real possibility. Someone who is willing to
spend the time to actually write a book can probably afford the time to
learn desktop publishing.

One more thing: I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from
learning OO/LO, if that's what they want. I am, however, pointing out
that it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
metallurgy!

I rest my case.

--doug



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Re: Suggestion.

[許哲崇]

Try to use keyboard recording software.


2014-05-13 9:20 GMT+08:00 Jim McLaughlin :

> I would certainly "second" Gordon Lee's suggestion for ver. 5.x.x that
> having a
> parallel to the Corel/WP "reveal Codes" function would be invaluable.
>
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Sarala Lee  wrote:
>
> > Sir / Madam,
> > For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and
> Desktop
> > Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better
> > program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that
> satisfies
> > most of my requirements.
> > However there is one very important property (if that's the right
> > word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I
> have
> > used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was
> > made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return
> was
> > "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you
> > required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which
> I
> > don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
> > Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice?
> It
> > would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others
> who
> > still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
> > Gordon Lee.
> >
> >
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> >
>