[VIHUELA] Re: The Chittarra atiorbata and Guittare theorbee
Thank you, Monica! — Rocky > On Aug 8, 2020, at 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > > Dear All > > I have at last revised and substantially enlarged my study of these enigmatic > instruments. You will find the revised pdf at > > https://monicahall.co.uk > > in the section > > The Chittarra Atiorbata and Guittare Theorbée > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] The Chittarra atiorbata and Guittare theorbee
Dear All I have at last revised and substantially enlarged my study of these enigmatic instruments. You will find the revised pdf at https://monicahall.co.uk in the section The Chittarra Atiorbata and Guittare Theorbée -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Jean-Baptiste Castillion Ms. 245
Hi all, I am looking for a scanned copy of the manuscript Jean-Baptiste Castillion copied known as Ms. 245 found in the Conservatoire Royal de Musique in Liège. I was hoping that someone on the list might have a copy and could send it to me. Andrew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Corbetta
If anyone is interested in Corbetta - I have revised and rearranged the various sections in my study of him on my webpage - https://monicahall.co.uk https://monicahall.co.uk There are now just four large sections placed at the beginning of the list all clearly dated 2020. I haven't deleted the old sections yet but will do so shortly when I have time. I hope that all of you are well and not finding being locked up or locked down too trying. Best wishes to all Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Giustiniani
I'll send it to you as a pdf file. Best, Matthew On 13 avr. 2020, at 16:22, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Thanks - that very helpful. If anyone has a link to the original Italian that would also be a help. Monica -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Giustiniani
Thanks - that very helpful. If anyone has a link to the original Italian that would also be a help. Monica > On 13 April 2020 at 14:04 Matthew Daillie wrote: > > >Dear Monica, > >You'll find an English translation of it here: > >[1]http://www.sscm-jscm.org/v9/no1/stein.html#ch4 > >[2]http://www.sscm-jscm.org/v9/no1/stein.html > >Best, > >Matthew > >On Apr 13, 2020, at 13:08, Monica Hall ><[3]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >Dear List >I am trying to trace a quotation from Giustiniani's Discorso sobre la >musica in which he writes about accompanying the voice with theorbo, >guitar, harpsichord or organ and refers to Kapsberger as writing arie >to be sung all spagnola or all'italiana. I just cannot track it down on >line or in my files. >I wonder if anyone has it to hand. >Hope everyone is surviving in these troubled times. >Monica >-- >To get on or off this list see list information at >[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. http://www.sscm-jscm.org/v9/no1/stein.html#ch4 >2. http://www.sscm-jscm.org/v9/no1/stein.html >3. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu >4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Re: Giustiniani
Dear Monica, You'll find an English translation of it here: [1]http://www.sscm-jscm.org/v9/no1/stein.html#ch4 [2]http://www.sscm-jscm.org/v9/no1/stein.html Best, Matthew On Apr 13, 2020, at 13:08, Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Dear List I am trying to trace a quotation from Giustiniani's Discorso sobre la musica in which he writes about accompanying the voice with theorbo, guitar, harpsichord or organ and refers to Kapsberger as writing arie to be sung all spagnola or all'italiana. I just cannot track it down on line or in my files. I wonder if anyone has it to hand. Hope everyone is surviving in these troubled times. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.sscm-jscm.org/v9/no1/stein.html#ch4 2. http://www.sscm-jscm.org/v9/no1/stein.html 3. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Giustiniani
Dear List I am trying to trace a quotation from Giustinianiâs Discorso sobre la musica in which he writes about accompanying the voice with theorbo, guitar, harpsichord or organ and refers to Kapsberger as writing arie to be sung all spagnola or allâitaliana. I just cannot track it down on line or in my files. I wonder if anyone has it to hand. Hope everyone is surviving in these troubled times. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Online tuition
Dear All, I’m currently offering online lessons. Two HD webcams (one for close-ups). External mic for improved sound quality. Tested Zoom (recommended), FaceTime (good), Skype and Messenger (possible but not recommended). Open to players of all levels. If interested, feel free to get in touch (for instance via http://michalgondko.info/contact/ or social media). It does work! Best wishes, stay healthy. Michal To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Mersenne reference
Many thanks to you too. Wonderful resource this list! Monica > On 05 February 2020 at 10:21 Azalais wrote: > > There is a ref here: http://moliere.huma-num.fr/base.php?Chromatique > > And with different spelling of the text here: > ( apres auoir remarqué que le genre Chromatic a peut estre esté > appellé de ce nom, parce que les Grecs l'escriuoient auec des caracteres > rouges, ou dautre couleur, car chroma signifie couleur) > http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/17th/MERHU2_5_TEXT.html > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 5:02 AM Monica Hall < > mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > ?space?-- I just wondered whether any kind soul familiar with > Mersenne's monumental work could Identify which Book/Chapter/page number in Harmonie universelle. the following quote appears. "Il faut remarquer que le genre chromatique de musique a pris son nom des couleurs , car chroma signifie couleur." Presumably there is a chapter about genres somewhere in the book. I haven't been able to access a free copy on line and don't really want to make a trip to the library just to check out one reference. Thank you Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Mersenne reference
Many thanks to both of you. I was able to find it very quickly with your help. Monica > On 05 February 2020 at 10:31 Peter Kooiman wrote: > > > Livre Second, Theoreme II, page 322 > > Free copy an Google Books (hit the red "Read ebook" link on the left) > > https://books.google.com/books?id=fVsiWYQUGpcC > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > On Behalf Of Monica Hall > Sent: Wednesday 5 February 2020 11:01 > To: VihuelaList > Subject: [VIHUELA] Mersenne reference > >I just wondered whether any kind soul familiar with Mersenne's >monumental work could Identify which Book/Chapter/page number in >Harmonie universelle. the following quote appears. > >"Il faut remarquer que le genre chromatique de musique a pris son nom >des couleurs , car chroma signifie couleur." > >Presumably there is a chapter about genres somewhere in the book. > >I haven't been able to access a free copy on line and don't really want >to make a trip to the library just to check out one reference. > >Thank you > >Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Mersenne reference
Livre Second, Theoreme II, page 322 Free copy an Google Books (hit the red "Read ebook" link on the left) https://books.google.com/books?id=fVsiWYQUGpcC -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday 5 February 2020 11:01 To: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] Mersenne reference I just wondered whether any kind soul familiar with Mersenne's monumental work could Identify which Book/Chapter/page number in Harmonie universelle. the following quote appears. "Il faut remarquer que le genre chromatique de musique a pris son nom des couleurs , car chroma signifie couleur." Presumably there is a chapter about genres somewhere in the book. I haven't been able to access a free copy on line and don't really want to make a trip to the library just to check out one reference. Thank you Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Mersenne reference
[1]MERHU2_5_TEXT MERHU2_5_TEXT On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 10:02:49 GMT, Monica Hall wrote: I just wondered whether any kind soul familiar with Mersenne's monumental work could Identify which Book/Chapter/page number in Harmonie universelle. the following quote appears. "Il faut remarquer que le genre chromatique de musique a pris son nom des couleurs , car chroma signifie couleur." Presumably there is a chapter about genres somewhere in the book. I haven't been able to access a free copy on line and don't really want to make a trip to the library just to check out one reference. Thank you Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links: 1. http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/17th/MERHU2_5_TEXT.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Hidden links: 4. http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/17th/MERHU2_5_TEXT.html
[VIHUELA] Mersenne reference
I just wondered whether any kind soul familiar with Mersenne's monumental work could Identify which Book/Chapter/page number in Harmonie universelle. the following quote appears. "Il faut remarquer que le genre chromatique de musique a pris son nom des couleurs , car chroma signifie couleur." Presumably there is a chapter about genres somewhere in the book. I haven't been able to access a free copy on line and don't really want to make a trip to the library just to check out one reference. Thank you Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Novel about Corbetta
Thank you, Monica! I'm almost nostalgic for the aroma and tactile pleasure of an analog book, and yes, let's hope there will be a film!! azalais On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 6:50 AM Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Just as a matter of general interest. Rafael Andia has written a novel about Corbetta - the title is Guitarre royalle - roman. it is in French and published by Harmattan. Haven't read it yet. Perhaps it will be made into a film - like Tous les matins du monde! Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Novel about Corbetta
Just as a matter of general interest. Rafael Andia has written a novel about Corbetta - the title is Guitarre royalle - roman. it is in French and published by Harmattan. Haven't read it yet. Perhaps it will be made into a film - like Tous les matins du monde! Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Italian
I wonder if any of our Italian speaking members is willing to translate this sonnet. I get the general drift of it which seems to be rather derogatory but some of it is difficult to turn into coherent English. Muse ui prego di non fare il Muso/ E soffrir à ragion châentra in Parnaso,/ Il solo che dâApollo apprese lâuso/ Quel sol che non andraâmai a lâOccaso/ Ben egli merta esser traâuoi rinchiuso,/ Seui uengan tantâ altri à dar di naso/ E poichâ egliâ empie/à vostra rocche il fuso/ Sete in uero obligate à farne Caso/ E gli che da gaglioffi e troppo offeso/ Di suo gaglioffo ardir crepa di riso,/ Poiche à grattar più che à suonar han preso/ Per cioâdourestes o Muse darli auiso,/ Che se non tengan giusto il contrapeso/ Li sara datto della cetra in uso. Cheers Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions
Well - the writer seems to be in favour of a string length of 61.5 cms. He is primarily concerned with the music of Sanz and seems to be suggesting that "Italian masters" strung their guitars with a bourdon only on the 4th course, but high octave strings on the second, third and fifth courses. He even goes so far as to suggest that the fourth course was triple strung with the three strings spanning two octaves although he admits that that might be problematic. The ten strings are to be used independently. All this is supposed to eliminate from Sanz' music the skips of a 7th or a 9th which he objects to. The only reason why I am thinking about all this is because I am reconsidering the stringing of the guitarre theorbee. As ever Monica > On 26 June 2019 at 10:02 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > And a surprise to me too - since this suggestion isn't supported by the > evidence of Strad's stringing instructions! > > For example the violin stringing sizes of Tartini/Riccati (eighteenth > century) applied to the guitar: > - on the fourth course the instructions pretty clearly suggest a low > bourdon on the 'treble' side which is thicker (0.95/0.89mm) than the third > course (0.70/0.73mm) (the fourth high octave treble is 0.55mm); > - on the fifth course the bourdon is even thicker at 1.13/1.06mm with a > high octave treble of 0.66/0.69mm. > > Yes, as said, the analysis was a bit speculative - but not so much out as > to result in stringing at the wrong octave! > > Further, is your proposer an advocate of tiny five course guitars? - for > a string to reach d'' (ie an octave and a tone above middle C) without > snapping would require a string length of only around 35cm... > I know of one recent publication which promoted this diminutive sort of size > for early four course guitars (in fact unlikely in my view), but not for the > later five course instrument where we have so much iconographic and other > evidence on size. > > regards > > Martyn > > On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 09:33:51 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: > > > Hi Martyn > > Thank you for this. I've read your article several times and I think I > have understood it although when it comes anything mathematical I am > seriously challenged. > > What I was really wondering was - these instructions obviously apply to > the chitarra atiorbata but should we assume that they also apply to a > "standard" 5-course guitar without additional open basses? > > One of the reasons for raising this is that recently someone has > suggested that these instructions indicate that there were no bourdons on the > 4th and 5th courses. The 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant with high octave > strings - instead of being aA d'd they were tuned a'a d" d'. > > This came as rather a surprise to me. > > As ever > > Monica > > > > > On 26 June 2019 at 09:10 Martyn Hodgson < hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > > > > >Dear Monica, > > > >Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which > I report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters (Tartini's > and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions for the > chitarra tiorbata. > > > >Here's the link > > > >https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf > > > >I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string > sizes since these were such a substantial part of his output and more > common I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions which > is generally in line with what you say below. > > > >I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average > tension of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra > tiorbata of around 34Kg. But I thought it prudent to express some caution > then, as I'll also do now:" The speculative nature of some of the > previous analysis means that few unequivocal conclusions may be drawn" > Nevertheless, I believed then, and still do, it gives a reasonable > indication of the tensions employed. > > > >regards > > > >Martyn > > > >On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall < > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > > > I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions > for > > the chitarra ttiorbata again. > > > > I have two queries. > > > > Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth > > courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) > > standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a > > different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. > > > > Also - the first string
[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions
And a surprise to me too - since this suggestion isn't supported by the evidence of Strad's stringing instructions! For example the violin stringing sizes of Tartini/Riccati (eighteenth century) applied to the guitar: - on the fourth course the instructions pretty clearly suggest a low bourdon on the 'treble' side which is thicker (0.95/0.89mm) than the third course (0.70/0.73mm) (the fourth high octave treble is 0.55mm); - on the fifth course the bourdon is even thicker at 1.13/1.06mm with a high octave treble of 0.66/0.69mm. Yes, as said, the analysis was a bit speculative - but not so much out as to result in stringing at the wrong octave! Further, is your proposer an advocate of tiny five course guitars? - for a string to reach d'' (ie an octave and a tone above middle C) without snapping would require a string length of only around 35cm... I know of one recent publication which promoted this diminutive sort of size for early four course guitars (in fact unlikely in my view), but not for the later five course instrument where we have so much iconographic and other evidence on size. regards Martyn On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 09:33:51 BST, Monica Hall wrote: Hi Martyn Thank you for this. I've read your article several times and I think I have understood it although when it comes anything mathematical I am seriously challenged. What I was really wondering was - these instructions obviously apply to the chitarra atiorbata but should we assume that they also apply to a "standard" 5-course guitar without additional open basses? One of the reasons for raising this is that recently someone has suggested that these instructions indicate that there were no bourdons on the 4th and 5th courses. The 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant with high octave strings - instead of being aA d'd they were tuned a'a d" d'. This came as rather a surprise to me. As ever Monica > On 26 June 2019 at 09:10 Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > >Dear Monica, > >Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which I report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters (Tartini's and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions for the chitarra tiorbata. > >Here's the link > >[2]https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf > >I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string sizes since these were such a substantial part of his output and more common I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions which is generally in line with what you say below. > >I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average tension of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra tiorbata of around 34Kg. But I thought it prudent to express some caution then, as I'll also do now:" The speculative nature of some of the previous analysis means that few unequivocal conclusions may be drawn"Nevertheless, I believed then, and still do, it gives a reasonable indication of the tensions employed. > >regards > >Martyn > >On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions for > the chitarra ttiorbata again. > > I have two queries. > > Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth > courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) > standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a > different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. > > Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to e'' > whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave & a 6th > lower. There is a considerable difference in string length between the > violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the strings > to completely different pitches. > > Here are the instructions. > > [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first strings > (cantini) > Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second strings > (sotanelle)] > > Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first > strings (cantini) g > > Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d > > Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella) d' > > Ninth string: This must be a thicker violin second string (canto) a > > Tenth string: This must be a violin first string (cantino) a' > > They have never really seemed to m
[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions
Hi Martyn Thank you for this. I've read your article several times and I think I have understood it although when it comes anything mathematical I am seriously challenged. What I was really wondering was - these instructions obviously apply to the chitarra atiorbata but should we assume that they also apply to a "standard" 5-course guitar without additional open basses? One of the reasons for raising this is that recently someone has suggested that these instructions indicate that there were no bourdons on the 4th and 5th courses. The 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant with high octave strings - instead of being aA d'd they were tuned a'a d" d'. This came as rather a surprise to me. As ever Monica > On 26 June 2019 at 09:10 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > Dear Monica, > > Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which I > report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters (Tartini's > and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions for the > chitarra tiorbata. > > Here's the link > > https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf > > I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string sizes > since these were such a substantial part of his output and more common > I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions which is generally > in line with what you say below. > > I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average tension > of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra tiorbata of > around 34Kg. But I thought it prudent to express some caution then, as I'll > also do now:" The speculative nature of some of the previous analysis > means that few unequivocal conclusions may be drawn"Nevertheless, I > believed then, and still do, it gives a reasonable indication of the tensions > employed. > > regards > > Martyn > > On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: > > > I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions for > the chitarra ttiorbata again. > > I have two queries. > > Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth > courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) > standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a > different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. > > Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to e'' > whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave & a 6th > lower. There is a considerable difference in string length between the > violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the strings > to completely different pitches. > > Here are the instructions. > > [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first strings > (cantini) > Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second strings > (sotanelle)] > > Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first > strings (cantini) g > > Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d > > Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella) dâ > > Ninth string: This must be a thicker violin second string (canto) a > > Tenth string: This must be a violin first string (cantino) aâ > > They have never really seemed to make sense to me but perhaps I am > missing something. > > As ever > > Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions
Dear Monica, Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which I report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters (Tartini's and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions for the chitarra tiorbata. Here's the link [1]https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string sizes since these were such a substantial part of his output and more common I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions which is generally in line with what you say below. I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average tension of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra tiorbata of around 34Kg. But I thought it prudent to express some caution then, as I'll also do now:" The speculative nature of some of the previous analysis means that few unequivocal conclusions may be drawn"Nevertheless, I believed then, and still do, it gives a reasonable indication of the tensions employed. regards Martyn On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall wrote: I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions for the chitarra ttiorbata again. I have two queries. Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to e'' whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave & a 6th lower. There is a considerable difference in string length between the violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the strings to completely different pitches. Here are the instructions. [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first strings (cantini) Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second strings (sotanelle)] Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first strings (cantini) g Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella) d' Ninth string: This must be a thicker violin second string (canto) a Tenth string: This must be a violin first string (cantino) a' They have never really seemed to make sense to me but perhaps I am missing something. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Stradivarius sstringing instructions
I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions for the chitarra ttiorbata again. I have two queries. Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to e'' whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave & a 6th lower. There is a considerable difference in string length between the violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the strings to completely different pitches. Here are the instructions. [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first strings (cantini) Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second strings (sotanelle)] Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first strings (cantini) g Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella) dâ Ninth string: This must be a thicker violin second string (canto) a Tenth string: This must be a violin first string (cantino) aâ They have never really seemed to make sense to me but perhaps I am missing something. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
There are no illustrations of the guitarre theorbee. All that we know about it is that there are twelve short pieces in the Gallot ms. (GB:Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94) in French tablature. There are no instructions as to how the instrument was tuned or strung. You have to try and work this out from the music. No other source for the instrument has come to light so far as I know. Your suggestion that there may be structural advantages to displacing the 11th and 12th courses Is helpful. That is really what I am trying to work out. Regards Monica On 12 June 2019 at 18:42 Azalais wrote: Could there possibly be a structural, or a bridge (and bracing) and/or peg box spacing reason perhaps? Maybe a string oscillation clearance issue? (I haven't seen photos or images) azalais On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 11:12 AM Monica Hall < [1]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Unfortunately the source - the Gallot ms. - gives no information about the stringing or tuning or for that matter the pitch. Therein lies the problem. The method of stringing suggested in the article eliminates all the quirks in the music, in particular the skip of a 7th in the bass line which occurs frequently. You really need to read the article to understand the problem. I could send you a copy if you are interested. I would be interested to know what you think about the practicalities of it. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 15:35 Martyn Hodgson < [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the lower octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous about this ( I've not yet seen the EM article myself)? > > Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the range down to contrabass ,B and the quality of sound, a practical problem with this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM article) would seem to be the large gap below the third course (g) and the next stoppable course (c). However, if the first five unstopped basses were at the upper octave they would then continue directly scalewise downwards from the third course: ie g f e d c B. with the last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g (because of string technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper indicates (or they could be an octave down thus simply extending the scalewise sequence down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or archlute.). > > Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as open strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic . > > Or perhaps I've misunderstood .. > > Marty > > > On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall < [3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish Lute Ms. âPamure 5â and is on your CD. > > The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. > In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to confuse. > > As ever > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop < [4]robmackil...@gmail.com mailto: [5]robmackil...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, with some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. But I don't know... > > > > Rob > > > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall < [6]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto: [7]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. > > > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Unfortunately the source - the Gallot ms. - gives no information about the stringing or tuning or for that matter the pitch. Therein lies the problem. The method of stringing suggested in the article eliminates all the quirks in the music, in particular the skip of a 7th in the bass line which occurs frequently. You really need to read the article to understand the problem. I could send you a copy if you are interested. I would be interested to know what you think about the practicalities of it. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 15:35 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the lower > octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous about this ( > I've not yet seen the EM article myself)? > > Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the range > down to contrabass ,B and the quality of sound, a practical problem with > this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM article) would seem to be > the large gap below the third course (g) and the next stoppable course (c). > However, if the first five unstopped basses were at the upper octave they > would then continue directly scalewise downwards from the third course: ie g > f e d c B. with the last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g > (because of string technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper > indicates (or they could be an octave down thus simply extending the > scalewise sequence down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or > archlute.). > > Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as open > strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic . > > Or perhaps I've misunderstood .. > > Marty > > > On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: > > > Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for > the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are > found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish > Lute Ms. âPamure 5â and is on your CD. > > The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. > In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to > confuse. > > As ever > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop < robmackil...@gmail.com > mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, > with some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar > include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would > be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less > helpful for accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the > main action. But I don't know... > > > > Rob > > > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are > five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C > B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open > basses. > > > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which > would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses > on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th > courses in the upper octave. > > > > As ever. > > > > Monica > > > > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop < robmackil...@gmail.com > mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > >Monica, > > > > > >To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing > courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > > > >So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > describe appears to be: > > > > > >Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > > > >Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct > me if I'm wrong. > > > > > >Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > > > > > >On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto: > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > > >?space?-- The latest issue of Early M
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the lower octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous about this (I've not yet seen the EM article myself)? Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the range down to contrabass ,B and the quality of sound, a practical problem with this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM article) would seem to be the large gap below the third course (g) and the next stoppable course (c). However, if the first five unstopped basses were at the upper octave they would then continue directly scalewise downwards from the third course: ie g f e d c B. with the last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g (because of string technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper indicates (or they could be an octave down thus simply extending the scalewise sequence down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or archlute.). Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as open strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic . Or perhaps I've misunderstood .. Marty On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall wrote: Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish Lute Ms. "Pamure 5" and is on your CD. The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to confuse. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop <[1]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, with some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. But I don't know... > > Rob > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in the upper octave. > > As ever. > > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop <[3]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >Monica, > > > >To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > >So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you describe appears to be: > > > >Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > >Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > >Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > >On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < [4]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[5]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > >?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lo
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish Lute Ms. “Pamure 5” and is on your CD. The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to confuse. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, with > some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar include > Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would be useful > for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for > accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. > But I don't know... > > Rob > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall wrote: > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five > courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B > below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would > be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the > fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in > the upper octave. > > As ever. > > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > > > Monica, > > > > To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing > > courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > > So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > > describe appears to be: > > > > Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > > Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if > > I'm wrong. > > > > Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > ?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on > > the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two >course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap >between the stopped courses and diapasons. > >Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where >there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? > >What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like >this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the >instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage >wherever they are positioned on the instrument. > >Food for thought. > >As ever > >Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > --
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. >From 1st course down the tuning is e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in the upper octave. As ever. Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > Monica, > > To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing courses: > the first string is always the first course. > > So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > describe appears to be: > > Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if > I'm wrong. > > Rob MacKillop > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > ?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the > guitarre theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B 1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, 6th-7th unstopped courses - a g (nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in the strictest sense of the term. This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap between the stopped courses and diapasons. Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage wherever they are positioned on the instrument. Food for thought. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
To clarify - the fifth unstopped course is an octave lower than the fifth course on the fingerboard. In Helmholtz notation the low b is shown as B, = i.e. upper case B with a comma after it - this isn't very clear in my message. It is not entirely unusual to have the two lowest courses a tone apart. I believe this is sometimes the case with the mandora and recently I discovered that there is late 18th century music for a 6-string guitar by Christian Gottlieb Scheidler with the 6th string a tone below the 5th i.e. G. Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 12:31 SW wrote: > > > Monica, this tuning seems very odd? Fifth course a semitone lower than fourth > course? Same note B on two courses (fifth course on fingerboard and fifth > unstopped course)? > > > > On 12 June 2019, at 12:08, Monica Hall wrote: > >The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two >course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap >between the stopped courses and diapasons. > >Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where >there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? > >What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like >this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the >instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage >wherever they are positioned on the instrument. > >Food for thought. > >As ever > >Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Monica, this tuning seems very odd? Fifth course a semitone lower than fourth course? Same note B on two courses (fifth course on fingerboard and fifth unstopped course)? On 12 June 2019, at 12:08, Monica Hall wrote: The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B 1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, 6th-7th unstopped courses - a g (nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in the strictest sense of the term. This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap between the stopped courses and diapasons. Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage wherever they are positioned on the instrument. Food for thought. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee
The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B 1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, 6th-7th unstopped courses - a g (nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in the strictest sense of the term. This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap between the stopped courses and diapasons. Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage wherever they are positioned on the instrument. Food for thought. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Temperaments & Fretting on Early Guitars
Thank you to everyone who replied! > On 12 May 2019, at 4:17 PM, Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > > Dear Edward, > The problem with employing an unequal temperament on the five course > guitar is the prevalence of sliding chord shapes employed on every fret > in much of the extant repertoire - ie Alfabeto. This has also been > pointed out in previous communications and papers. > M.H. > > On Sunday, 12 May 2019, 09:05:59 BST, Edward Yong >wrote: > Hi everyone! > I'm thinking about exploring meantone on my renaissance and baroque > guitars. At the moment they are in equal temperament, but I usually > have my renaissance lute in 1/4 comma meantone and my baroque archlute > in 1/6 comma (unless I'm doing earlier music). > I was wondering about meantone on the two guitars, but was wondering > whether there was any historical evidence for the use of meantone on > renaissance and baroque guitars. Also evidence for tastini on them > would be helpful! > I have that helpful calculator for frets in various temperaments, but > can't find anything for early guitars. Should I simply place them by > ear or use ClearTune for placing frets in the appropriate temperaments? > Best, > Edward C. Yong > > ÏοÏÏο ηλεκÏÏονικÏν ÏαÏÏδÏομείον εκ > είΠαδοιο ÎµÎ¼ÎµÏ ÎµÏÎμÏθη. > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPadis missæ sunt. > æ¤é»åéµä»¶ç¼éäºèªå¾iPadã > This e-mail was sent from my iPad. > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Re: Temperaments & Fretting on Early Guitars
Dear Edward, The problem with employing an unequal temperament on the five course guitar is the prevalence of sliding chord shapes employed on every fret in much of the extant repertoire - ie Alfabeto. This has also been pointed out in previous communications and papers. M.H. On Sunday, 12 May 2019, 09:05:59 BST, Edward Yong wrote: Hi everyone! I'm thinking about exploring meantone on my renaissance and baroque guitars. At the moment they are in equal temperament, but I usually have my renaissance lute in 1/4 comma meantone and my baroque archlute in 1/6 comma (unless I'm doing earlier music). I was wondering about meantone on the two guitars, but was wondering whether there was any historical evidence for the use of meantone on renaissance and baroque guitars. Also evidence for tastini on them would be helpful! I have that helpful calculator for frets in various temperaments, but can't find anything for early guitars. Should I simply place them by ear or use ClearTune for placing frets in the appropriate temperaments? Best, Edward C. Yong ÃÿÃÃÿ ÷ûõúÃÃÿýùúÃý ÃñÃÃôÃÿüõïÿý õú õïà ñôÿùÿ õüõà õÃÃüÃø÷. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPadis missæ sunt. æ¤é»åéµä»¶ç¼éäºèªå¾iPadã This e-mail was sent from my iPad. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Temperaments & Fretting on Early Guitars
I use 1/4-comma MT on my B-guitar when needed. High first fret with tastini (singular?) for g# on 3rd string (E-major chord!). David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 10:05, Edward Yong <[3]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi everyone! I'm thinking about exploring meantone on my renaissance and baroque guitars. At the moment they are in equal temperament, but I usually have my renaissance lute in 1/4 comma meantone and my baroque archlute in 1/6 comma (unless I'm doing earlier music). I was wondering about meantone on the two guitars, but was wondering whether there was any historical evidence for the use of meantone on renaissance and baroque guitars. Also evidence for tastini on them would be helpful! I have that helpful calculator for frets in various temperaments, but can't find anything for early guitars. Should I simply place them by ear or use ClearTune for placing frets in the appropriate temperaments? Best, Edward C. Yong ÃÿÃÃÿ ÷ûõúÃÃÿýùúÃý ÃñÃÃôÃÿüõïÿý õú õïà ñôÿùÿ õüõà õÃÃüÃø÷. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPadis missæ sunt. æ¤é»åéµä»¶ç¼éäºèªå¾iPadã This e-mail was sent from my iPad. To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Temperaments & Fretting on Early Guitars
Hi everyone! I'm thinking about exploring meantone on my renaissance and baroque guitars. At the moment they are in equal temperament, but I usually have my renaissance lute in 1/4 comma meantone and my baroque archlute in 1/6 comma (unless I'm doing earlier music). I was wondering about meantone on the two guitars, but was wondering whether there was any historical evidence for the use of meantone on renaissance and baroque guitars. Also evidence for tastini on them would be helpful! I have that helpful calculator for frets in various temperaments, but can't find anything for early guitars. Should I simply place them by ear or use ClearTune for placing frets in the appropriate temperaments? Best, Edward C. Yong τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΠαδοιο εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPadis missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPad。 This e-mail was sent from my iPad. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: London visit
Dear Jocelyn, Good that you're coming over next month. I don't usually attend Lute Soc meetings (too far from the Yorkshire Dales for a grand day out!) but I'll try to make that on 11th May. regards, Martyn On Tuesday, 2 April 2019, 02:34:22 BST, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hello Everyone, I just wanted to let you know I'm visiting London next month and plan to attend the 11 May Lute Society meeting. I've been in touch with several of you for many years, especially Monica, and if you'll be there too I'll finally get a chance to meet you. I'm looking forward to the meeting very much and hope to see some of you there! Best wishes, Jocelyn Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 506 School of Music East Carolina University 252-328-1255 Office 252-328-6258 Fax [1]nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:nels...@ecu.edu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] London visit
Hello Everyone, I just wanted to let you know I’m visiting London next month and plan to attend the 11 May Lute Society meeting. I’ve been in touch with several of you for many years, especially Monica, and if you’ll be there too I’ll finally get a chance to meet you. I’m looking forward to the meeting very much and hope to see some of you there! Best wishes, Jocelyn Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 506 School of Music East Carolina University 252-328-1255 Office 252-328-6258 Fax nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Corbetta and Bartolotti I-Rsc Ms.AS A 4912
I have added a section to my Corbetta page describing the manuscript I-Rsc Ms.AS A 4912 which includes some pieces by him. This is Section VI Part 6, right at the end. As the ms. also contains music by Bartolotti I have added a section to my Bartolotti page. It is after the main pdf. You will find these jewels of wisdom at [1]https://monicahall.co.uk/corbetta and [2]https://monicahall.co.uk/bartolotti . Any comments and corrections will be welcome preferably off the list. But if anyone else has had a chance to look at the manuscript which is available on line it would be interesting to know what they think about it. As ever Monica References 1. https://monicahall.co.uk/corbetta 2. https://monicahall.co.uk/bartolotti To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Vihuela for Sale
Good Morning! I now have one of two Vihuelas for sale in my Workshop: [1]https://die-laute.com/instrumente-zu-verkaufen/ Scale 65 cm, with fixed frets, Spruce top, maple body, mahogany neck, ebony leg's, rosewood bridge, pear saddle. Very warm and soft sound, Nylon Strings for the Moment, but needs probably a higher tension. The instrument is in excellent condition and beautifully finished. I especially like the sound board. The Stringposition is excellent as well, but a bit slow in response. I think ist will be much better with a higher tension. The Vihuela was not played for a long time, so the sound develops after a bit of playtime. A Vihuela by Dieter Hense in very good condition, I will offer soon, first pictures here (Second from the right): [2]https://die-laute.com/2019/02/18/fuenferpack/ Both Instruments are from the Collection of Dr. Heinz Nickel. Best regards Sebastian Minkhart Lautenmacher 0176-83191186 [3]www.die-laute.de -- References 1. https://die-laute.com/instrumente-zu-verkaufen/ 2. https://die-laute.com/2019/02/18/fuenferpack/ 3. http://www.die-laute.de/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 19th c. guitars and strings
Hi Eugene, Yes I've used bow brand harp gut for my 19th century guitar and I like it. If you play with nails, the polished gut can be very pleasant and prevents that sound of the nail sliding on the string. In my experience, the sound is darker than nylgut, but brighter than nylon. I've also tried them on my theorbo and they sound nice, but a bit too dark for my needs as a continuo player. They also sound darker than the handmade gut strings I have on my theorbo. I think they're a really great budget alternative to handmade gut. They're particularly nice as fretted strings since they can be replaced at much less cost than handmade gut strings. For players who use nails and are used to playing on nylon strings, bow brand gut can be nice since they can be used without having to alter the player's technique. Hope that's useful! Warner On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 6:18 PM Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> wrote: I know 19th-c. guitar activity on this list has been sparse in recent years. Still . . . I have a ca. 1850 Legnani-model guitar by Gebrüder Placht. A friend who uses Bow Brand "natural gut" harp string trebles and gave me a set to try. I've just strung the instrument, tuned it up at A = 430, and am pleased thus far. The strings are highly polished and remarkable transparent. Do any of you happen to have any experience with this line of strings in a fretted-neck context? Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] 19th c. guitars and strings
I know 19th-c. guitar activity on this list has been sparse in recent years. Still . . . I have a ca. 1850 Legnani-model guitar by Gebrüder Placht. A friend who uses Bow Brand "natural gut" harp string trebles and gave me a set to try. I've just strung the instrument, tuned it up at A = 430, and am pleased thus far. The strings are highly polished and remarkable transparent. Do any of you happen to have any experience with this line of strings in a fretted-neck context? Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Early six course Spanish guitaRe: fretting and stringing
I would be grateful for any information on two aspects of the Spanish six (double) course guitar introduced there in the second half of the eighteenth century and which continued to be played into the nineteenth: Fretting: - as far as I'm aware all extant instruments of this type have fixed metal frets on the neck but, of course, some could be replacements for earlier tied frets especially for the earliest of these instruments. Is there any evidence for the use of tied frets on these guitars?; Stringing:- overwound strings were employed on early six single string guitars and there's some evidence to support the use of overwound on the lowest courses of the six course Spanish instrument. Is there any evidence for the use of just plain (perhaps loaded) gut strings on the fourth and fifth courses of these instruments? Martyn Hodgson -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Early six course Spanish guitaRe: fretting and stringing
I would be grateful for any information on two aspects of the Spanish six (double) course guitar introduced there in the second half of the eighteenth century and which continued to be played into the nineteenth: Fretting: - as far as I'm aware all extant instruments of this type have fixed metal frets on the neck but, of course, some could be replacements for earlier tied frets especially for the earliest of these instruments. Is there any evidence for the use of tied frets on these guitars?; Stringing:- overwound strings were employed on early six single string guitars and there's some evidence to support the use of overwound on the lowest courses of the six course Spanish instrument. Is there any evidence for the use of just plain (perhaps loaded) gut strings on the fourth and fifth courses of these instruments? Martyn Hodgson -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas
Thanks. that's actually the recording I have. Perhaps that is the only
one he made and I am mistaken in thinking he did the complete book.
Cheers
Monica.
Original Message
From: azal...@gmail.com
Date: 01/12/2018 16:43
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "David van Ooijen", "Vihuela"
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas
There are listings for four LP recordings (with track information) at
this location:
[1]https://www.discogs.com/artist/4350799-Rodrigo-de-Zayas
This seems to be the one that includes the Sanz tracks:
Rodrigo de Zayas ââ Luths - Theorbes, Vihuelas, Guitare Baroque
Label: Arion ââ ARN 336 018Format:3 à Vinyl, LP, Compilation
Country: France
Released:1979
Azalais
On Sat, Dec 1, 2018 at 10:05 AM [2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Thanks - that's a start on the long long trail a-winding. Maybe
he
only recorded part of it. There is an interview with him on
YouTube!
He
also seems to have recorded an opera by Caccini.
Monica
Original Message
From: [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
Date: 01/12/2018 14:31
To: "Monica Hall"<[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas
Guitar Review Nr 40 from 1976. I have that. It's an article with
some
transcriptions.
David
***
David van Ooijen
[1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 at 15:27, [3][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[4][10]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Am I imagining it or did Rodrigo de Zayas make a recording of
the
complete works of Sanz sometime in the 1970s? I have a set of
three
LPs
of selections from all his recordings. One side is devoted to
Sanz.
I
believe he also did a complete transcription of the msuic
which
was
included in the long since defunct periodical "Guitar
Review".
Was anyone else around at that time and have any recollection
of
this.
Regards
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[5][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[12]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
2. [13]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
3. mailto:[14]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[15]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. https://www.discogs.com/artist/4350799-Rodrigo-de-Zayas
2. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
9. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
13. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
14. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas
There are listings for four LP recordings (with track information) at this location: [1]https://www.discogs.com/artist/4350799-Rodrigo-de-Zayas This seems to be the one that includes the Sanz tracks: Rodrigo de Zayas ââ Luths - Theorbes, Vihuelas, Guitare Baroque Label: Arion ââ ARN 336 018Format:3 à Vinyl, LP, Compilation Country: France Released:1979 Azalais On Sat, Dec 1, 2018 at 10:05 AM [2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Thanks - that's a start on the long long trail a-winding. Maybe he only recorded part of it. There is an interview with him on YouTube! He also seems to have recorded an opera by Caccini. Monica Original Message From: [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Date: 01/12/2018 14:31 To: "Monica Hall"<[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas Guitar Review Nr 40 from 1976. I have that. It's an article with some transcriptions. David *** David van Ooijen [1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 at 15:27, [3][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4][10]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Am I imagining it or did Rodrigo de Zayas make a recording of the complete works of Sanz sometime in the 1970s? I have a set of three LPs of selections from all his recordings. One side is devoted to Sanz. I believe he also did a complete transcription of the msuic which was included in the long since defunct periodical "Guitar Review". Was anyone else around at that time and have any recollection of this. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [5][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[12]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [13]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:[14]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[15]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.discogs.com/artist/4350799-Rodrigo-de-Zayas 2. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 13. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 14. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 15. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas
Thanks - that's a start on the long long trail a-winding. Maybe he only recorded part of it. There is an interview with him on YouTube! He also seems to have recorded an opera by Caccini. Monica Original Message From: davidvanooi...@gmail.com Date: 01/12/2018 14:31 To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas Guitar Review Nr 40 from 1976. I have that. It's an article with some transcriptions. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 at 15:27, [3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Am I imagining it or did Rodrigo de Zayas make a recording of the complete works of Sanz sometime in the 1970s? I have a set of three LPs of selections from all his recordings. One side is devoted to Sanz. I believe he also did a complete transcription of the msuic which was included in the long since defunct periodical "Guitar Review". Was anyone else around at that time and have any recollection of this. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas
Guitar Review Nr 40 from 1976. I have that. It's an article with some transcriptions. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 at 15:27, [3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Am I imagining it or did Rodrigo de Zayas make a recording of the complete works of Sanz sometime in the 1970s? I have a set of three LPs of selections from all his recordings. One side is devoted to Sanz. I believe he also did a complete transcription of the msuic which was included in the long since defunct periodical "Guitar Review". Was anyone else around at that time and have any recollection of this. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Rodrigo de Zayas
Am I imagining it or did Rodrigo de Zayas make a recording of the complete works of Sanz sometime in the 1970s? I have a set of three LPs of selections from all his recordings. One side is devoted to Sanz. I believe he also did a complete transcription of the msuic which was included in the long since defunct periodical "Guitar Review". Was anyone else around at that time and have any recollection of this. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Very good! Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Verzonden: vrijdag 9 november 2018 11:35 Aan: VihuelaList Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Corbetta Just for the record - I am revising my web pages devoted to Corbetta. I have just uploaded a revised and enlarged version of Section I which covers his biography. You can find this at http://monicahall.co.uk/corbetta Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Corbetta
Just for the record - I am revising my web pages devoted to Corbetta. I have just uploaded a revised and enlarged version of Section I which covers his biography. You can find this at http://monicahall.co.uk/corbetta Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Morlaye Branles
Dear Renaissance guitarists, Does anybody have any clear workable editions of the Morlaye books â specifically the âBranles? Paul Balmer Author âGuitarStoryâ Virus-free. [1]www.avast.com -- References Visible links 1. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient Hidden links: 3. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient 4. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L29946-4039TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta 1639
Thanks for this. I think it must be a 3. 5 doesn't really make much sense. The basic chord N has a 4 because it is an A flat major chord. I just like to consider every possible permutation before deciding on the obvious! Monica Original Message From: dshos...@mac.com Date: 04/08/2018 14:41 To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta 1639 The pdf I have is not bad and there is nothing visible above the bottom line (top course) for the N chord. 3 or 5 possible although 5 1 1 1 1 would be a nasty stretch (at least for me!) > On Aug 3, 2018, at 5:36 AM, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > Has anyone got a decent digital copy of Corbetta's 1639 book? > > His "alfabeto falso" includes a version of Chord N* with the fifth > course clearly left unfretted but the note on the first course is > unclear. Most people including Pinnell and Gary Boye have interpreted > this as being G played at the third fret but the shape of what is > actually visible resembles the figure 5 rather than 3 when compared > with Chords N3 and N5. > > One version would be - top down > > 3 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > > The other > > 5 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > > Any thoughts welcome. > > Monica > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta 1639
The pdf I have is not bad and there is nothing visible above the bottom line (top course) for the N chord. 3 or 5 possible although 5 1 1 1 1 would be a nasty stretch (at least for me!) > On Aug 3, 2018, at 5:36 AM, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > Has anyone got a decent digital copy of Corbetta's 1639 book? > > His "alfabeto falso" includes a version of Chord N* with the fifth > course clearly left unfretted but the note on the first course is > unclear. Most people including Pinnell and Gary Boye have interpreted > this as being G played at the third fret but the shape of what is > actually visible resembles the figure 5 rather than 3 when compared > with Chords N3 and N5. > > One version would be - top down > > 3 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > > The other > > 5 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > > Any thoughts welcome. > > Monica > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Corbetta 1639
Has anyone got a decent digital copy of Corbetta's 1639 book? His "alfabeto falso" includes a version of Chord N* with the fifth course clearly left unfretted but the note on the first course is unclear. Most people including Pinnell and Gary Boye have interpreted this as being G played at the third fret but the shape of what is actually visible resembles the figure 5 rather than 3 when compared with Chords N3 and N5. One version would be - top down 3 1 1 1 1 The other 5 1 1 1 1 Any thoughts welcome. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Mademoiselle de Regnault de Solier
Does anyone know anything about the lady to whom Le Gallois addressed his letter about music. - Le Gallois, Jean - Lettre de Mr Le Gallois a Mademoiselle de Regnault de Solier touchant la Musique. Paris : Estienne Michallet & G. Quinet, 1680. There are a couple of references to Corbetta therin. Thanks Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta 1643
Thanks Arthur. I have the SPES edition. It was this edition published in Pavia that I am trying to get hold of. I expect it is out of print. I wonder if anyone happens to know Giangiacomo Pinardi. Best Monica Original Message From: arthurjn...@verizon.net Date: 29/04/2018 11:46 To: Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta 1643 Hi Monica, The SPES edition is for sale at abebooks.com for $US106. Or did you only want the edition publ. in Pavia? Are you familiar with B-Bc MS Littera XY no. 24135 It has some unusual titles in common with the Cavacanti Lute Book in he same library. I wonder if they might form a pair. The Cavalcanti came from Coussemacher's collection. Titles like Cicilano (with C, not S), Franchina, Matacinata etc. Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net -Original Message- From: mjlhall To: VihuelaList Sent: Sat, Apr 28, 2018 12:15 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Corbetta 1643 It appears that an edition of Corbetta's Varii Capricii per la Guitarra Spagnuola (1643) edited by Giangiacomo Pinardi, was published by the publishers Guardamagna Editore, in Pavia in 1996. I have been trying to get hold of this without success. I e-mailed the publishers but they haven't replied. Does anyone on the list have a copy of it or know where I might get hold of one? Best wishes Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Corbetta 1643
It appears that an edition of Corbetta's Varii Capricii per la Guitarra Spagnuola (1643) edited by Giangiacomo Pinardi, was published by the publishers Guardamagna Editore, in Pavia in 1996. I have been trying to get hold of this without success. I e-mailed the publishers but they haven't replied. Does anyone on the list have a copy of it or know where I might get hold of one? Best wishes Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: German translations
Dear Daniel Many thanks for clarifying this. I am afraid I didn't make it very clear in my original e-mail but you have now made it really clear for me and I am very grateful. Sorry for any confusion caused. I realized after I had sent my message that you hadn't copied your reply to the list. If you didn't intend it to appear on the list I must apologise for the faux pas. Best wishes Monica Original Message From: heiman.dan...@juno.com Date: 24/04/2018 7:02 To: , Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations Monica: My response was strongly prejudiced by the last sentence, obviously written by a modern commentator, which to me implies a context of a discussion of lessons for Leopold, presumably based on other evidence that is not mentioned in this brief excerpt. If there is no such context, then my interpretation is incorrect. The date range given, by itself, does not imply anything other than that the account book from which the historical quotation was taken covers the time period listed. It does not necessarily imply service rendered over a period of time. Only one monetary sum is mentioned, but there could have been a single payment or several. You won't know for sure until you can examine the account book or a facsimile of it. The situation would obviously have been clearer if the date or dates of the transaction(s) had been given rather than what apparently are just the dates for the beginning and end of the ledger book. "umbwillen" is probably "for the sake of" "beeden Khönigli Persohnen" is most likely, as Peter suggests, 'both royal personages," not just the young prince. Again, there is nothing in this passage that explicitly states that instruction was given. Taken by itself, it could describe simply a "command" performance on guitar. Regards, Daniel Heiman -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: 23 April, 2018 11:23 To: pe...@crispu.com Cc: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations Thank you for your reply. I wondered about this. I came across the information in a roundabout way. It is referred to in the introduction to the Tree Edition of guitar pieces by Losy edited by Michael Treder. He says about it Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt. His source of reference is an article by Paul Nettl in Studien zur Musikwissenschaft (1929) which just gives the entry in the accounts. With my very imperfect knowledge of German I couldn't make out any reference to Corbetta teaching rather than just giving a performance - which is why I sought some expert advice. Leopold I would have been 8 years old at the time. I wonder if there is any other reference to him playing the guitar. Any more information or alternative translations would be very helpful. thank you Monica Original Message From: pe...@crispu.com Date: 23/04/2018 13:16 To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk", "heiman. daniel@juno. com" Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations > on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given I wonder if that is correct though. Would " umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt" not be "while he played for (both?) royals on the guitar"? Regards Peter -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 3:02 PM To: heiman.dan...@juno.com Cc: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations Thank you very much for your help. I thought the spelling might be odd because I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionary. Nor could Google translate. Best wishes Monica Original Message From: heiman.dan...@juno.com Date: 23/04/2018 12:34 To: Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] German translations Monica: This is an entry in the court financial records for the period 13 November (1648) to the end of July 1649: "To Johann Francisco Corbetta, on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given to the royal person, 60 florins was handed over." (The guitar instruction that Kaiser Leopold received in Vienna, while still a young prince, from Francesco Corbetta, who lived from ca.1615 to 1681.) The ledger entry is full of deviations from the modern accepted spellings and word usage of the German language. Regards, Daniel Heiman -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: 23 April, 2018 03:26 To: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] German translations I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is
[VIHUELA] Re: German translations
Thank you for your reply. I wondered about this. I came across the information in a roundabout way. It is referred to in the introduction to the Tree Edition of guitar pieces by Losy edited by Michael Treder. He says about it Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt. His source of reference is an article by Paul Nettl in Studien zur Musikwissenschaft (1929) which just gives the entry in the accounts. With my very imperfect knowledge of German I couldn't make out any reference to Corbetta teaching rather than just giving a performance - which is why I sought some expert advice. Leopold I would have been 8 years old at the time. I wonder if there is any other reference to him playing the guitar. Any more information or alternative translations would be very helpful. thank you Monica Original Message From: pe...@crispu.com Date: 23/04/2018 13:16 To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk", "heiman.daniel@juno. com" Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations > on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given I wonder if that is correct though. Would " umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt" not be "while he played for (both?) royals on the guitar"? Regards Peter -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 3:02 PM To: heiman.dan...@juno.com Cc: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations Thank you very much for your help. I thought the spelling might be odd because I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionary. Nor could Google translate. Best wishes Monica Original Message From: heiman.dan...@juno.com Date: 23/04/2018 12:34 To: Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] German translations Monica: This is an entry in the court financial records for the period 13 November (1648) to the end of July 1649: "To Johann Francisco Corbetta, on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given to the royal person, 60 florins was handed over." (The guitar instruction that Kaiser Leopold received in Vienna, while still a young prince, from Francesco Corbetta, who lived from ca.1615 to 1681.) The ledger entry is full of deviations from the modern accepted spellings and word usage of the German language. Regards, Daniel Heiman -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: 23 April, 2018 03:26 To: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] German translations I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is better than mine could translate the following into English. I can guess more or less what it is about but can't fathom out the details. He was played 60 fl. for whatever he did Eintrag in den Hofzahlamtsrechungen für den Zeitrum 13 November (1648) bis Ends July 1649 – Johann Francisco Corbetta Musico umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt zur Verehrung dargeraicht 60 fl. Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt. Thanks for any help. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: German translations
> on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given I wonder if that is correct though. Would " umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt" not be "while he played for (both?) royals on the guitar"? Regards Peter -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 3:02 PM To: heiman.dan...@juno.com Cc: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations Thank you very much for your help. I thought the spelling might be odd because I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionary. Nor could Google translate. Best wishes Monica Original Message From: heiman.dan...@juno.com Date: 23/04/2018 12:34 To: Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] German translations Monica: This is an entry in the court financial records for the period 13 November (1648) to the end of July 1649: "To Johann Francisco Corbetta, on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given to the royal person, 60 florins was handed over." (The guitar instruction that Kaiser Leopold received in Vienna, while still a young prince, from Francesco Corbetta, who lived from ca.1615 to 1681.) The ledger entry is full of deviations from the modern accepted spellings and word usage of the German language. Regards, Daniel Heiman -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: 23 April, 2018 03:26 To: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] German translations I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is better than mine could translate the following into English. I can guess more or less what it is about but can't fathom out the details. He was played 60 fl. for whatever he did Eintrag in den Hofzahlamtsrechungen für den Zeitrum 13 November (1648) bis Ends July 1649 – Johann Francisco Corbetta Musico umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt zur Verehrung dargeraicht 60 fl. Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt. Thanks for any help. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: German translations
Thank you very much for your help. I thought the spelling might be odd because I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionary. Nor could Google translate. Best wishes Monica Original Message From: heiman.dan...@juno.com Date: 23/04/2018 12:34 To: Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] German translations Monica: This is an entry in the court financial records for the period 13 November (1648) to the end of July 1649: "To Johann Francisco Corbetta, on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given to the royal person, 60 florins was handed over." (The guitar instruction that Kaiser Leopold received in Vienna, while still a young prince, from Francesco Corbetta, who lived from ca.1615 to 1681.) The ledger entry is full of deviations from the modern accepted spellings and word usage of the German language. Regards, Daniel Heiman -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: 23 April, 2018 03:26 To: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] German translations I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is better than mine could translate the following into English. I can guess more or less what it is about but can't fathom out the details. He was played 60 fl. for whatever he did Eintrag in den Hofzahlamtsrechungen für den Zeitrum 13 November (1648) bis Ends July 1649 – Johann Francisco Corbetta Musico umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt zur Verehrung dargeraicht 60 fl. Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt. Thanks for any help. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] German translations
I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is better than mine could translate the following into English. I can guess more or less what it is about but can't fathom out the details. He was played 60 fl. for whatever he did Eintrag in den Hofzahlamtsrechungen für den Zeitrum 13 November (1648) bis Ends July 1649 – Johann Francisco Corbetta Musico umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt zur Verehrung dargeraicht 60 fl. Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt. Thanks for any help. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Vihuelas in Asia
hi! does anyone know of any references to vihuelas da mano or renaissance/baroque guitars existing or being played in the Spanish and Portuguese colonies in Asia? i'd be fascinated to know how common they were in Asia between 1500-1650. i know of the Japanese painting of the 1590s depicting the vihuela, so i imagine it must have also existed in the colonies at Goa, Malacca, Manila, Macao etc. most curious, Edward -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Thank you! Monica Original Message From: rockype...@comcast.net Date: 03/04/2018 16:18 To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Rob MacKillop", "VihuelaList", "Nelson, Jocelyn" Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta I’ll add my voice to the thanks, too! — Rocky Mjos On Apr 3, 2018, at 8:20 AM, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: > I agree with Rob, Monica, thank you for your work. Here in North Carolina it was a wonderful thing to see first thing in the morning. I enjoyed exploring a bit of it before getting into the daily grind. > Regards, > Jocelyn > > -- > Jocelyn Nelson, DMA > Teaching Assistant Professor > Early Guitar, Music History > ECU School of Music Writing Liaison > Chancellor’s Leadership Academy Alum > 310 Fletcher Music Center > School of Music > East Carolina University > 252.328.1255 office > 252.328.6258 fax > nels...@ecu.edu <mailto:nel...@ecu.edu> > On 4/3/18, 8:38 AM, "lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" wrote: > >Thank you for your kind words. >Hope you are having a pleasant Easter break. >Monica > >Original Message >From: robmackil...@gmail.com >Date: 03/04/2018 12:26 >To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" >Cc: "VihuelaList" >Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta > >Wow. Well done, Monica, and thanks for sharing. The amount of work you >give >to the baroque-guitar community - and for no money - is incredible, and >you >should be loudly thanked for it! > >Rob MacKillop > >On 3 April 2018 at 12:19, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu dartmouth.edu >> wrote: > >> If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather >basic >> tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot >> ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94. >> >> www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the >> list of contents. >> >> Regards >> Monica >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > > > > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Thank you. It is good to hear from you. Hope all is well and the daily grind not too grinding. Regards. Monica Original Message From: nels...@ecu.edu Date: 03/04/2018 13:20 To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk", "robmackillop@gmail. com" Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta I agree with Rob, Monica, thank you for your work. Here in North Carolina it was a wonderful thing to see first thing in the morning. I enjoyed exploring a bit of it before getting into the daily grind. Regards, Jocelyn -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History ECU School of Music Writing Liaison Chancellor’s Leadership Academy Alum 310 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax nels...@ecu.edu <mailto:nel...@ecu.edu> On 4/3/18, 8:38 AM, "lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of mjlhall@cs. dartmouth.edu" wrote: Thank you for your kind words. Hope you are having a pleasant Easter break. Monica Original Message From: robmackil...@gmail.com Date: 03/04/2018 12:26 To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta Wow. Well done, Monica, and thanks for sharing. The amount of work you give to the baroque-guitar community - and for no money - is incredible, and you should be loudly thanked for it! Rob MacKillop On 3 April 2018 at 12:19, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather basic > tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot > ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94. > > www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the > list of contents. > > Regards > Monica > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
I’ll add my voice to the thanks, too! — Rocky Mjos On Apr 3, 2018, at 8:20 AM, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: > I agree with Rob, Monica, thank you for your work. Here in North Carolina it > was a wonderful thing to see first thing in the morning. I enjoyed exploring > a bit of it before getting into the daily grind. > Regards, > Jocelyn > > -- > Jocelyn Nelson, DMA > Teaching Assistant Professor > Early Guitar, Music History > ECU School of Music Writing Liaison > Chancellor’s Leadership Academy Alum > 310 Fletcher Music Center > School of Music > East Carolina University > 252.328.1255 office > 252.328.6258 fax > nels...@ecu.edu <mailto:nel...@ecu.edu> > On 4/3/18, 8:38 AM, "lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >Thank you for your kind words. >Hope you are having a pleasant Easter break. >Monica > >Original Message >From: robmackil...@gmail.com >Date: 03/04/2018 12:26 >To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" >Cc: "VihuelaList" >Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta > >Wow. Well done, Monica, and thanks for sharing. The amount of work you >give >to the baroque-guitar community - and for no money - is incredible, and >you >should be loudly thanked for it! > >Rob MacKillop > >On 3 April 2018 at 12:19, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu dartmouth.edu >> wrote: > >> If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather >basic >> tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot >> ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94. >> >> www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the >> list of contents. >> >> Regards >> Monica >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > > > > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
I agree with Rob, Monica, thank you for your work. Here in North Carolina it was a wonderful thing to see first thing in the morning. I enjoyed exploring a bit of it before getting into the daily grind. Regards, Jocelyn -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History ECU School of Music Writing Liaison Chancellor’s Leadership Academy Alum 310 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax nels...@ecu.edu <mailto:nel...@ecu.edu> On 4/3/18, 8:38 AM, "lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" wrote: Thank you for your kind words. Hope you are having a pleasant Easter break. Monica Original Message From: robmackil...@gmail.com Date: 03/04/2018 12:26 To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta Wow. Well done, Monica, and thanks for sharing. The amount of work you give to the baroque-guitar community - and for no money - is incredible, and you should be loudly thanked for it! Rob MacKillop On 3 April 2018 at 12:19, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather basic > tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot > ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94. > > www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the > list of contents. > > Regards > Monica > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Thank you for your kind words. Hope you are having a pleasant Easter break. Monica Original Message From: robmackil...@gmail.com Date: 03/04/2018 12:26 To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta Wow. Well done, Monica, and thanks for sharing. The amount of work you give to the baroque-guitar community - and for no money - is incredible, and you should be loudly thanked for it! Rob MacKillop On 3 April 2018 at 12:19, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather basic > tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot > ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94. > > www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the > list of contents. > > Regards > Monica > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Corbetta
If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather basic tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94. www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the list of contents. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] MS (CZ-Bm D 189) - life after death....
Martyn Stewart McCoy once gave me some very good advice - "The person who insists on having the last word is the person who is in the wrong". I'll leave you to have the last word. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - life after death....
You just don't want to admit that that section of pieces is for a 5-course "mandora" not the 5- course guitar. 5. Your comment - " the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in Keys where low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the following keys of G, F. C and D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the upper octave:" "a distinctive feature of the guitar, but not of the period mandora, etc." Clearly it is a feature of the 5-course mandora for which these pieces were intended - unavoidable in the key of D major. All the pieces in D major exhibit this feature. Observations of this kind would not be acceptable even in undergraduate work. I think I have said on several occasions that I do not think the fact that this manuscript (or any other source) includes music for both mandora and 5-course guitar has any bearing on whether the low octave string(s) were placed on the thumb side of a course on the 5-course guitar in Germany or elsewhere. We simply don't know. I am sorry if you feel you are being bullied. At least I only send my messages to the Vihuela List. I don't send them to other lists with the intention of discrediting someone with whom I happen to disagree, so that as many people as possible can read them. There is no justification for sending 600 words of unpleasant personal comments which have nothing to do with the mandora or gallicon to the Baroque Lute List. Because you persist in doing this means that I have no choice but to send my messages to both lists too to ensure that my views are fairly represented. As ever Monica Dear Monica, That's a shame since, due to all these baroque manoeuvrings around the mandora and gytarra, we've never actually got round to properly considering the original issue I raised! This, you may recall, was whether the widespread use in the seventeenth century of the high octave on the bass (thumb) side of a guitar octave pair actually continued to be the general practice in the eighteenth century - especially in German speaking and Nordic lands (for example, in works by Diesel, say, as well as pieces contained in D-189). Your earlier postings have been carefully perused but, unfortunately, are sometimes contradictory over theparticular central matter of what instruments you now believe are required for the pieces in this MS. Accordingly I had thought that, because of these previous inconsistencies, you'd welcome an opportunity to make a final and unequivocal statement as to your latest position. Clearly, without knowing precisely what this now is, it's simply not possible to make further headway. So, perhaps, drawing a line may be appropriate - though I do feel rather denied the opportunity to fully reply to yours of 31 Jan and its various inconsistencies and 'misrepresentations'. Nevertheless, as I first suggested quite a few postings ago, let's therefore now agree to disagree... Finally, I'm a bit taken aback about 'bullying' since, to be quite frank, I felt very much the one on the receiving end! Indeed, I've generally aimed to maintain polite exchanges where possible. Ah well, perhaps it's all in the eye of the beholder - others can be our judges. regards, Martyn PS. Sorry - but, to quickly pre-empt another red herring in the offing, I'm obliged to mention that the mandore and the mandora are actually two entirely different instruments... ===== - Forwarded Message - From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" To: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Martyn Hodgson Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 11:34 Subject: Re: MS CZ- Bm D 189 Dear Martyn If you had taken the trouble to read the message that I sent to the Vihuela list on 31st January you would know what my conclusions about this manuscript were. There is no need for me to clarify my position further and I do not believe you are interested in composing a constructive reply. It seems that all you are interested in is bullying someone who disagrees with you by misrepresenting what they have said and by posting offensive personal comments about them to as many people as you can. As far I am concerned the matter is now closed. Monica From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 10/02/2018 10:07 To: "[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Baroque Lute List" <[4]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2 Dear Monica, Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply scroll down to find it.. Rather tha
[VIHUELA] Re: MS CZ- Bm D 189 - the Last Post
Dear Martyn I am sorry to have denied you the opportunity to fully reply to my message of 31 Jan and its various inconsistencies and 'misrepresentations'. I prefer to consider my inconsistencies and “misrepresentation”s as an attempt to keep an open mind and examine different ideas about what we find in this manuscript before arriving at any tentative conclusions. (Incidentally the correct RISM siglum for the manuscript is CZ-Bm D 189). In my final message I clearly stated – 1. It is clear from the chart on f.48r that the “Gytarra” is a 6- course instrument. It may be synonymous with the 6-course mandora which Martyn says was common at the time. It is also clear that the section between the first two double bar lines on f.48v is a tuning check for the 6- course “Gytarra” on f.48r; the last bar shows that the open bass is tuned to the same note as the third course. 2. The second section on the first stave shows the additional bass courses of the “Mandora” numbered 6-12 starting with G. 3. It seems to me that these two instruments may belong to a very broad genus of lute shaped instruments with added basses but their precise identity is uncertain. 4. The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for the “Gytarra”; those from f.60r- f. 76r are for a 5-course “Mandora”; and those from f.76v-f.95r numbered 1-56 are probably for 5-course guitar. Your suggestion that we should now agree to disagree simply indicates that you are not willing to admit that anything you say is wrong. A number of things you have said are nonsensical. 1. The fact that the manuscript includes a piece by Losy does not indicate that it was copied during his life time. It could have been copied anytime in the 18th century, at least as late as the 1760s. 2. Your comment - “A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve courses never existed in the period covered by the dating of D- 189.” You may not have come across another reference to such an instrument referred to as a “mandora” in another 18th century source but this does not prove that such an instrument didn’t exist in Rajhrad at the time the manuscript was copied. It may have been quite rare. 3. Your comment- “Accordingly, the most likely, and reasonable, identification of the couple of works for an instrument with seven extra basses is the arch/theorboed guitar”. It certainly is not a likely and reasonable identification – there are all sorts of other instruments which it might have been. It certainly doesn’t prove that it was figure-of-eight shaped. 4. Your comment - “Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f. 69v) for Mandora 1 and 2 does not employ the sixth course: perhaps the composer preferred this particular piece with these instruments this way or maybe they didn't have two guitars available? “ No, you obviously don't know - The parts are labelled in that way to indicate that the two pieces are to be played as a duet rather than as separate pieces for a single mandora. Your suggestion that they didn’t have two guitars available is a fairy tale. You just don’t want to admit that that section of pieces is for a 5-course “mandora” not the 5- course guitar. 5. Your comment - “ the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in Keys where low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the following keys of G, F. C and D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the upper octave:" "a distinctive feature of the guitar, but not of the period mandora, etc." Clearly it is a feature of the 5-course mandora for which these pieces were intended - unavoidable in the key of D major. All the pieces in D major exhibit this feature. Observations of this kind would not be acceptable even in undergraduate work. I think I have said on several occasions that I do not think the fact that this manuscript (or any other source) includes music for both mandora and 5-course guitar has any bearing on whether the low octave string(s) were placed on the thumb side of a course on the 5-course guitar in Germany or elsewhere. We simply don't know. I am sorry if you feel you are being bullied. At least I only send my messages to the Vihuela List. I don’t send them to other lists with the intention of discrediting someone with whom I happen to disagree, so that as many people as possible can read them. There is no justification for sending 600 words of unpleasant personal comments which have nothing to do with the mandora or gallicon to the Baroque Lute List. Because you persist in doing this means that I have no choice but to send my messages to both lists too to ensure that my views are fairly represented. As ever Monica Dear Monica, That's a shame since, due to all these baroque manoeuvrings around the mandora and gytarra, we've never actually got round to properly considering the original issue I raised! This, you may recall, was whether the widespread use in the seventeenth
[VIHUELA] MS CZ- Bm D 189 - the Last Post
Dear Martyn I am sorry to have denied you the opportunity to fully reply to my message of 31 Jan and its various inconsistencies and 'misrepresentations'. I prefer to consider my inconsistencies and “misrepresentation”s as an attempt to keep an open mind and examine different ideas about what we find in this manuscript before arriving at any tentative conclusions. (Incidentally the correct RISM siglum for the manuscript is CZ-Bm D 189). In my final message I clearly stated – 1. It is clear from the chart on f.48r that the “Gytarra” is a 6-course instrument. It may be synonymous with the 6-course mandora which Martyn says was common at the time. It is also clear that the section between the first two double bar lines on f.48v is a tuning check for the 6- course “Gytarra” on f.48r; the last bar shows that the open bass is tuned to the same note as the third course. 2. The second section on the first stave shows the additional bass courses of the “Mandora” numbered 6-12 starting with G. 3. It seems to me that these two instruments may belong to a very broad genus of lute shaped instruments with added basses but their precise identity is uncertain. 4. The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for the “Gytarra”; those from f.60r- f. 76r are for a 5-course “Mandora”; and those from f.76v-f.95r numbered 1-56 are probably for 5-course guitar. Your suggestion that we should now agree to disagree simply indicates that you are not willing to admit that anything you say is wrong. A number of things you have said are nonsensical. 1. The fact that the manuscript includes a piece by Losy does not indicate that it was copied during his life time. It could have been copied anytime in the 18th century, at least as late as the 1760s. 2. Your comment - “A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve courses never existed in the period covered by the dating of D- 189.” You may not have come across another reference to such an instrument referred to as a “mandora” in another 18th century source but this does not prove that such an instrument didn’t exist in Rajhrad at the time the manuscript was copied. It may have been quite rare. 3. Your comment- “Accordingly, the most likely, and reasonable, identification of the couple of works for an instrument with seven extra basses is the arch/theorboed guitar”. It certainly is not a likely and reasonable identification – there are all sorts of other instruments which it might have been. It certainly doesn’t prove that it was figure-of-eight shaped. 4. Your comment - “Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f. 69v) for Mandora 1 and 2 does not employ the sixth course: perhaps the composer preferred this particular piece with these instruments this way or maybe they didn't have two guitars available? “ No, you obviously don't know - The parts are labelled in that way to indicate that the two pieces are to be played as a duet rather than as separate pieces for a single mandora. Your suggestion that they didn’t have two guitars available is a fairy tale. You just don’t want to admit that that section of pieces is for a 5-course “mandora” not the 5- course guitar. 5. Your comment - “ the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in Keys where low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the following keys of G, F. C and D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the upper octave:" "a distinctive feature of the guitar, but not of the period mandora, etc." Clearly it is a feature of the 5-course mandora for which these pieces were intended - unavoidable in the key of D major. All the pieces in D major exhibit this feature. Observations of this kind would not be acceptable even in undergraduate work. I think I have said on several occasions that I do not think the fact that this manuscript (or any other source) includes music for both mandora and 5-course guitar has any bearing on whether the low octave string(s) were placed on the thumb side of a course on the 5-course guitar in Germany or elsewhere. We simply don't know. I am sorry if you feel you are being bullied. At least I only send my messages to the Vihuela List. I don’t send them to other lists with the intention of discrediting someone with whom I happen to disagree, so that as many people as possible can read them. There is no justification for sending 600 words of unpleasant personal comments which have nothing to do with the mandora or gallicon to the Baroque Lute List. Because you persist in doing this means that I have no choice but to send my messages to both lists too to ensure that my views are fairly represented. As ever Monica Dear Monica, That's a shame since, due to all these baroque manoeuvrings around the mandora and gytarra, we've never actually got round to properly considering the original issue I raised! This, you may recall, was whether the widespread use in the seventeenth century o
[VIHUELA] Re: Regarding: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - weathering the storm!
Dear Monica,
That's a shame since, due to all these baroque
manoeuvrings around the mandora and gytarra, we've
never actually got round to properly considering the
original issue I raised! This, you may recall, was
whether the widespread use in the seventeenth century
of the high octave on the bass (thumb) side of a guitar
octave pair actually continued to be the general practice
in the eighteenth century - especially in German
speaking and Nordic lands (for example, in works by
Diesel, say, as well as pieces contained in D-189).
Your earlier postings have been carefully perused but,
unfortunately, are sometimes contradictory over the
particular central matter of what instruments you now
believe are required for the pieces in this MS.
Accordingly I had thought that, because of these
previous inconsistencies, you'd welcome an opportunity
to make a final and unequivocal statement as to your
latest position. Clearly, without knowing precisely what
this now is, it's simply not possible to make further
headway. So, perhaps, drawing a line may be
appropriate - though I do feel rather denied the
opportunity to fully reply to yours of 31 Jan and its
various inconsistencies and 'misrepresentations'.
Nevertheless, as I first suggested quite a few postings
ago, let's therefore now agree to disagree...
Finally, I'm a bit taken aback about 'bullying' since, to
be quite frank, I felt very much the one on the receiving
end! Indeed, I've generally aimed to maintain polite
exchanges where possible. Ah well, perhaps it's all in
the eye of the beholder - others can be our judges.
regards,
Martyn
PS. Sorry - but, to quickly pre-empt another red herring in
the offing, I'm obliged to mention that the mandore and
the mandora are actually two entirely different instruments...
- Forwarded Message -
From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"
To: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Cc: Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 11:34
Subject: Re: MS CZ- Bm D 189
Dear Martyn
If you had taken the trouble to read the message that I sent to the
Vihuela
list on 31st January you would know what my conclusions about this
manuscript were. There is no need for me to clarify my position
further
and I do not believe you are interested in composing a constructive
reply.
It seems that all you are interested in is bullying someone who
disagrees with you by misrepresenting what they have said and by
posting offensive personal comments about them to as many people as
you
can.
As far I am concerned the matter is now closed.
Monica
From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 10/02/2018 10:07
To: "[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Baroque Lute
List"
<[4]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
- a fresh tack! 2
Dear Monica,
Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply
scroll down to find it..
Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would
you now please simply and, is it too much to hope, politely
answer the direct question put to you. As carefully explained,
this will provide you with the opportunity to properly clarify
your precise position over the instruments required for the
pieces in this MS and will then enable a constructive reply to
be composed.
Here's the relevant question again:
'- as I understand it from what you have earlier written, your
position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124
works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course
gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to
you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and
seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven
unstopped basses" )'
Is this still a correct statement of your position?
regards
Martyn
PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a
lute family instrument ( - and a baroque lute to boot!) and such
messages are therefore entirely relevant on that list. If the
mandora were a guitar I wouldn't.
=
__
From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"
To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 17:39
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ.
Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2
Dear Martyn
The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I
sent t
[VIHUELA] MS CZ- Bm D 189
Dear Martyn If you had taken the trouble to read the message that I sent to the list on 31st January you would know what my conclusions about this manuscript were. There is no need for me to clarify my position further and I do not believe you are interested in composing a constructive reply. It seems that all you are interested in is bullying someone who disagrees with you by misrepresenting what they have said and by posting offensive personal comments about them to as many people as you can. As far I am concerned the matter is now closed. Monica Dear Monica, Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply scroll down to find it.. Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would you now please simply and, is it too much to hope, politely answer the direct question put to you. As carefully explained, this will provide you with the opportunity to properly clarify your precise position over the instruments required for the pieces in this MS and will then enable a constructive reply to be composed. Here's the relevant question again: '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )' Is this still a correct statement of your position? regards Martyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2
From: Martyn Hodgson To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" ; Baroque Lute List Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 10:07 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2 Dear Monica, Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply scroll down to find it.. Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would you now please simply and, is it too much to hope, politely answer the direct question put to you. As carefully explained, this will provide you with the opportunity to properly clarify your precise position over the instruments required for the pieces in this MS and will then enable a constructive reply to be composed. Here's the relevant question again: '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )' Is this still a correct statement of your position? regards Martyn PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute family instrument ( - and a baroque lute to boot!) and such messages are therefore entirely relevant on that list. If the mandora were a guitar I wouldn't. __ From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 17:39 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2 Dear Martyn The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I sent to the Vihuela List on the 31st January. I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT CAREFULLY. It is the second down below your latest message. Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas. Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't think that anyone on that list interested in anything you have to say. I don't want to receive three copies of every message you see fit to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist. As ever Monica == Original Message From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 09/02/2018 16:43 To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2 From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> To: "[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List <[8]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26 Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2 Dear Monica. Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list! I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to enable me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for the pieces in this MS. In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote: '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )' Is this a correct statement of your position? regards Martyn PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute instrument - and a baroque lute to boot! = - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[9]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> To: Monica Hall <[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList <[11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List <[12]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh ta
[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2
Dear Martyn The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I sent to the Vihuela List on the 31st January. I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT CAREFULLY. It is the second down below your latest message. Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas. Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't think that anyone on that list interested in anything you have to say. I don't want to receive three copies of every message you see fit to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist. As ever Monica Original Message From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 09/02/2018 16:43 To: "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2 From: Martyn Hodgson To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" ; VihuelaList ; Baroque Lute List Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26 Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2 Dear Monica. Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list! I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to enable me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for the pieces in this MS. In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote: '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )' Is this a correct statement of your position? regards Martyn PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute instrument - and a baroque lute to boot! === == - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList ; Baroque Lute List Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! Dear Monica, As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to leave it for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon expect something further. Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now. --- -- Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a fiendish plot of any kind! But on with the motley.. --- Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each other of our respective cases and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source evidence. Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions: - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" ); - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2
From: Martyn Hodgson To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" ; VihuelaList ; Baroque Lute List Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26 Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2 Dear Monica. Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list! I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to enable me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for the pieces in this MS. In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote: '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )' Is this a correct statement of your position? regards Martyn PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute instrument - and a baroque lute to boot! === == - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList ; Baroque Lute List Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! Dear Monica, As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to leave it for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon expect something further. Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now. --- -- Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a fiendish plot of any kind! But on with the motley.. --- Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each other of our respective cases and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source evidence. Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions: - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" ); - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've not discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course numberings are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through the piece numbered 45! ). --- --- 1. DATE OF D-189 You stated that the MS could have been written "anytime in the eighteenth century" - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do, of course, understand why you favour such a wide range of dates since it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the plucked works in this collection However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier, including: James Tyler - 'early 18th century'; Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century'; Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700); Jaroslav Pohan
[VIHUELA] CZ-Bm D 189 unpicked
Martyn – RE: CZ-Bm D 189 My Response to Your Message of 29th January I will try to to be concise and stick to the point. I have deleted sections from Martyn’s message which I think are irrelevant and rearranged some of his comments to achieve a more logical appraisal of the manuscript. 1. General Background The manuscript belonged to and was presumably copied by someone at the Benedictine Monastery in Rajhrad, a town in Brno-Country District in Moravia. I have not been able to trace a detailed bibliographical description of it and I have not been able to check RISM but even entries in RISM are not always reliable. I have not seen the manuscript myself and I don’t think that Martyn has either. A copy, however good, still leaves a lot of unanswered questions. The manuscript includes, among other things, didactic material, arrangements of vocal and instrumental pieces by Lully, other vocal music, a sonata for trombone and music for viola da gamba. Some of the headings and text are in Latin, some in Czech or German. I don’t know if anyone has identified any of the other pieces but it would be necessary to do this before deciding on a possible date for the manuscript. 2. Date Martyn’s comment - “1. DATE OF D-189 You stated that the MS could have been written "anytime in the eighteenth century" - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do, of course, understand why you favour such a wide range of dates since it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the plucked works in this collection”. My comment – I have NEVER suggested throughout this discussion that either of the tablature charts or any of the music in this manuscript are for 6- course early classical guitar. I pointed this out in my private e-mail to Martyn but he has ignored this and most of the rest of what I have said. This is a clear indication that he has not read my messages before replying to them. Martyn’s comment - “However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier, including:James Tyler - 'early 18th century';Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700); Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor 1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700)”. My comment - Pohlman and Pohanska’s writings out of date and not entirely accurate. Tyler and Gary Boye are probably just copying what these previous writers have said. Martyn’s comment – “My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed to C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720. Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for compilation of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720”. My comment – You cannot date manuscripts in this way. Losy died in 1721. However, there is no reason to suppose that the manuscript was copied during his lifetime. Music by Corbetta was still being copied fifty years after his death. Likewise, Losy’s music would still have been popular twenty, thirty or more years after his death. Stylistic traits are no guide to dating. As somebody said recently on the Lute List “As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be avoided because it cannot be valid evidence”. There is nothing distinctively early 18th century about the music, most of which is quite trivial. Perhaps, Dear Martyn, you should do a course in Musicology! Ewa Bielińska-Galas, the most recent person to refer to the manuscript, says in her article only that it is 18th century. She refers to it as a manuscript of music for the mandora and has indicated in her table that both versions of the Losy pieces are for mandora. 3. The Tablature charts f.48v Fundamenta Gytarra In his message of 4th of January Martyn said “folio 48 …..gives elementary instructions for the five course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'”. I pointed out that the heading is actually Fundamenta “Gytarra”. This is the only instrument mentioned in the heading. I think Martyn is mistaken in claiming that these instructions are intended for a 5- course guitar. They are instructions on how to read tablature. The first segment between the double bars shows the open courses of a SIX- course instrument represented by letter “a”. These are clearly labeled 1-6 in descending order with the “a” for sixth open course placed below the tablature stave in the last bar. This clearly refers to the “Gytarra”; no other instrument is mentioned. This is followed by segments illustrating the five stopped courses at the 1st-9th fret represented by the letter b-k. There are also the signs for ornaments, time signatures and note values. f.48v Accordo Gytarra et Mandora Martyn’s comment on this was – “3. ACCORDO GYTARRA ET MANDORA The tablature system with five lines on f.48v. between the first double bar lines gives octave tuning checks in the usual manner. It shows that
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2
Martyn I am not going to comment in detail on your pathetic attempt to discredit everything that I say. If you think that your rant at the beginning of your message of 14th January, sent to both the vihuela and baroque lute lists, constitutes general politeness you have very strange ideas as to what is good manners. I am now trying to reply to what you have said in your previous message but I am not sure that it is worth the effort. Monica Original Message From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 30/01/2018 10:35 To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk", "vihuela@cs. dartmouth.edu" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2 Dear Monica, I don't usually 'knee-jerk' these things but was truly astonished at your wild reaction (below) to my calm email yesterday in which I had carefully tried to avoid our earlier combative exchanges and present a different (ie non-subjective) approach in a non-confrontational manner - 'a fresh tack'.. I'll also be interested to see what communications you privately sent to me that I've leaked in an open public forum in my mailing of yesterday. As far as I can see, the only intimation to anybody else that you've privately communicated is my opening phrase in this email "As you now know" I have already explained that reading our previous communications has so far clearly failed to influence each other - but just because I disagreed with you doesn't mean I didn't read them! In fact yesterday I raised this very matter and intentionally wrote (see below) "Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each other of our respective cases and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source evidence." All the quotations I used from you are from your open public mailings to this forum and are taken verbatim and were not edited - perhaps you changed your mind subsequently. Finally, I do think general politeness is important in these exchanges and thus I'll be interested to read of the "torrent of personal abuse" directed towards you - other than, naturally, simply fair comment. regards Martyn __ From: "mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" To: VihuelaList Cc: Martyn Hodgson Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 20:28 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately. It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I have said in them. I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them. Watch this space! As ever Monica Original Message From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 29/01/2018 17:16 To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> To: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! Dear Monica, As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to leave it for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon expect something further. Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now. --- Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a fiendish plot of any kind! But on with the motley.. --- Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2
Dear Monica, I don't usually 'knee-jerk' these things but was truly astonished at your wild reaction (below) to my calm email yesterday in which I had carefully tried to avoid our earlier combative exchanges and present a different (ie non-subjective) approach in a non-confrontational manner - 'a fresh tack'.. I'll also be interested to see what communications you privately sent to me that I've leaked in an open public forum in my mailing of yesterday. As far as I can see, the only intimation to anybody else that you've privately communicated is my opening phrase in this email "As you now know" I have already explained that reading our previous communications has so far clearly failed to influence each other - but just because I disagreed with you doesn't mean I didn't read them! In fact yesterday I raised this very matter and intentionally wrote (see below) "Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each other of our respective cases and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source evidence." All the quotations I used from you are from your open public mailings to this forum and are taken verbatim and were not edited - perhaps you changed your mind subsequently. Finally, I do think general politeness is important in these exchanges and thus I'll be interested to read of the "torrent of personal abuse" directed towards you - other than, naturally, simply fair comment. regards Martyn __ From: "mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" To: VihuelaList Cc: Martyn Hodgson Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 20:28 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately. It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I have said in them. I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them. Watch this space! As ever Monica ----Original Message From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 29/01/2018 17:16 To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> To: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! Dear Monica, As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to leave it for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon expect something further. Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now. --- Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a fiendish plot of any kind! But on with the motley.. --- Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each other of our respective cases and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source evidence. Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions: - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped bass
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately. It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I have said in them. I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them. Watch this space! As ever Monica Original Message From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 29/01/2018 17:16 To: "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList ; Baroque Lute List Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! Dear Monica, As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to leave it for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon expect something further. Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now. --- -- Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a fiendish plot of any kind! But on with the motley.. --- Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each other of our respective cases and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source evidence. Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions: - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" ); - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've not discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course numberings are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through the piece numbered 45! ). --- --- 1. DATE OF D-189 You stated that the MS could have been written "anytime in the eighteenth century" - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do, of course, understand why you favour such a wide range of dates since it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the plucked works in this collection However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier, including: James Tyler - 'early 18th century'; Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century'; Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700); Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor 1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700); My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed to C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720. Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for compilation of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720. --- -- 2. CALLICHON/MANDORA Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons have been identif
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
- Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList ; Baroque Lute List Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! Dear Monica, As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to leave it for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon expect something further. Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now. --- -- Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a fiendish plot of any kind! But on with the motley.. --- Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each other of our respective cases and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source evidence. Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions: - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" ); - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've not discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course numberings are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through the piece numbered 45! ). --- --- 1. DATE OF D-189 You stated that the MS could have been written "anytime in the eighteenth century" - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do, of course, understand why you favour such a wide range of dates since it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the plucked works in this collection However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier, including: James Tyler - 'early 18th century'; Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century'; Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700); Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor 1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700); My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed to C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720. Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for compilation of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720. --- -- 2. CALLICHON/MANDORA Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons have been identified made between 1688 and 1780 (most are listed in Dieter Kirsch's 'La mandora au XVIII siecle): the vast majority (97%) of these are six course instruments but a couple have more courses - one is 8 course and one 9 course . These two are both later eighteenth century and thus too late to be the sort of instruments originally employed for D-189. Extant instruments also well reflect contemporary iconography showing the overwhelming predominance of the six course mandora; and similarly with extant tablatures - though a very few do contain some pieces for 8 or 9 course mandora (such as Univerzitna Kniznica Bratislava Ms 1092 which contains galant/classical music c.1770 requiring a mandora with eight courses). Note that these mandoras basically had these few additional courses on the same peghead (like earlier lutes) and
[VIHUELA] Re: Campanelle
Slightly changed, hopefully improved⦠[1]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf Van: Lex Eisenhardt [mailto:lex.eisenha...@gmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 24 januari 2018 22:01 Aan: Vihuelalist (vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu) Onderwerp: Campanelle Today I uploaded a new paper: [2]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf Lex -- References 1. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf 2. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Campanelle
Thank you - Lex - that's all very interesting. Incidentally Medard includes an example of a "Campanelle" in 1676 and there are campanelle passages in some of the works attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot Ms. Monica Original Message From: lex.eisenha...@gmail.com Date: 24/01/2018 21:00 To: "Vihuelalist" Subj: [VIHUELA] Campanelle Today I uploaded a new paper: [1]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf Lex -- References 1. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Campanelle
Thanks. I'll take a look. Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Verzonden: donderdag 25 januari 2018 10:27 Aan: lex.eisenha...@gmail.com; Vihuelalist Onderwerp: Re: [VIHUELA] Campanelle Thank you - Lex - that's all very interesting. Incidentally Medard includes an example of a "Campanelle" in 1676 and there are campanelle passages in some of the works attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot Ms. Monica Original Message From: lex.eisenha...@gmail.com Date: 24/01/2018 21:00 To: "Vihuelalist" Subj: [VIHUELA] Campanelle Today I uploaded a new paper: [1]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf Lex -- References 1. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Campanelle
Today I uploaded a new paper: [1]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf Lex -- References 1. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: A few more thought on the Moravian Ms.CZ-Bm D189
I have had a bit more time to look at this. In the message which Martyn posted on 7th January commenting on an earlier message of mine he said - "Simply overlooked is that the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in keys where low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the following keys of G, F. Cand D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the upper octave:" "a distinctive feature of the guitar, but not not of the period mandora, etc." "Good practical examples include: the Echo on f68 where the penultimate bar would better with a low sixth course G - but the scribe writes a high third course, guitar appropriate g and numerous similar examples." However I would point out On f.69v-f.70r there is a boure evidently intended to be played by two mandoras. In Boure Mandora 1a there is skip of a 7th in the bass line in bar 3 and bar 11 In Boure Mandora 2a there also is a skip of a 7th in the bass line in bar 3 and in bar 11 (the fourth bar on the first stave of f.70r). It is a reasonable assumption that the 5-course pieces at least as far as f.76r are for a 5-course mandora. That probably explains why there are two versions of the Losy piece. The pieces from f.76v may be for 5-course guitar – which is what I suggested. (Martyn clearly had not read my message when commenting on it). There are quite a few 5-part chords and in one place there is an indication that the chords should be strummed. In the untitled piece on f.88r the two A major chords in bar 8 are to be strummed. The most likely explanation seems to me to be that the "gytarra" is a 5- course mandora with one additional unstopped bass. The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for gytarra; those from f.60r- f.76r are for a 5-course mandora; and those from f.76v-f.95r numbered 1- 56 for 5-course guitar. It is better not to jump to conclusions about complex documents of this kind. Because Martyn thought it was appropriate to send his lengthy message not only to this list, but to the Baroque Lute list and even the Lute List as well, it only appears on the Baroque Lute list. In the future I suggest he sends his messages only to the list where the discussion is taking place. Also that he reads the message he is replying to all the way through and then composes a concise and coherent reply. If necessary you can copy and paste the passages which you need to refer to. It is not helpful to go through a message inserting comments at random especially on the list where any kind of formatting is not reproduced. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Further to the Moravsky Ms.
Personally I think it would be better to confine the discussion to the
vihuela list where it was initiated. I don't think it is appropriate to
post extended character assassinations to a public discussion list so
my
response will focus an the manuscript itself.
This is just a summary of my views after spending some time studying it
over the last few days.
As far as I can see the manuscript is undated. It could have been
copied any time in the 18th century. It was probably copied over a
considerable period of time – it also includes vocal music and a piece
for trombone and bass. There are different sections to it.
Tuning Charts
f.48r Fundamenta Gytarra
This chart clearly indicates that this “Gytarra” has 5 stopped courses
tuned to the same intervals as the baroque guitar and one additional
unstopped bass tuned a tone below the 5th. This is not a 5-course
guitar; it is a 6-course instrument as I think Daniel pointed out in
his original message. Whether it is a figure of 8 shaped instrument at
all is another matter.
f.48v Accordo Gytarra et Mandora
The first section of this chart between the two double bar lines shows
the stringing of a six-course instrument not a five course one. This
is the same as the stringing for the “gytarra” shown on f.48r.
The second section between the two double bar lines shows the seven
unstopped courses of the mandora.
Your comment - 1. Tuning chart on f.48v: The basic tuning checks
('Accordo Gytarra et Mandora') given between the first double bar lines
are for a five course guitar and for a six course.
I think you are mistaken. They are not. Nothing in the chart is
intended to apply to a 5-course instrument. One of the instruments has
one unstopped bass; the other has seven. It is just possible that the
open basses are interchangeable between the two instruments.
Your comment - 2. The tuning for an extended bass 12 course instrument
refers to a guitar.
I disagree with you on several counts as I have tried to explain in
previous messages. I don't think it refers to a theorboed guitar. From
the heading it would appear that the first section relates to the
"Gytarra" and the second to the mandora.
Your comment - You appear to believe that there was a form of mandora
at this time (the early eighteenth century) with 'seven unstopped
courses'. In my long researches into the instrument I've come across
nothing to support this view and if you are really aware (rather than
merely simply asserting this for effect) of any evidence to the
contrary I'd be very grateful for it.
I don’t believe anything of the sort. I am just trying to understand
what this particular manuscript tells us about these two particular
instruments. I am not interested in asserting anything for effect.
Most of your research seems to be based on speculation. As the
manuscript is undated we don’t know what period it relates to. It could
have been copied any time from the early 17th century onwards. It
would be necessary to identify some of the other pieces, in particular
the vocal pieces, to try and arrive at a more specific date.
All that I said about the music was -
As far as the pieces are concerned, whether or not the unstopped sixth
course is used seems to depend on the key of the piece. Those on f.48v-
f.59v which use the sixth course are mostly in C major or keys without
sharps, whilst those from f. 60r –f.76v are in A major or D
major i.e. keys with sharps where there is no call for a low G.
>From f.76v the pieces are numbered starting with 1 which seems to
represent a new “campaign” of copying. None of them use the unstopped G
– they could be for 5-course guitar or whatever instrument you wish.
There is nothing that lends weight to your suggestion that the
"gytarra" is a figure of eight-shaped instrument. It is could be lute
shaped or figure of eight - we simply don't know.
Your response to this perfectly reasonable observation was
Surely you can't expect us to agree to this procrustean interpreation?
You singularly overlook the bulk of all the pieces also in C to F and
those in G and D from later in the MS. And I've already clearly
identified where the same (Losy?) piece was tellingly transcribed -
which surely disproves your suggestion: 'a single counter example
disproves a proposition..!']
(Does it? Since when?)
If any one suggests an explanation which is different from your own
preconceived ideas it is dismissed as “procrustean”. If anyone is
procrustean it is you. In truth it hadn’t occurred to you that there
might be another explanation, and rather than consider it with an open
mind you dismiss it in a patronising way. Your comment about Losy is
beside the point – I have clearly said that the pieces from f.76v may
be for 5-course guitar anyway.
I have been able to spend a bit more time looking at the music.
Summa
[VIHUELA] Re: Even more to yet moRe: re. Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
=== Original Message From: [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: 07/01/2018 14:48 To: "Monica Hall"<[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Daniel Shoskes"<[3]dshoskes@mac. com>, "VihuelaList"<[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Baroque Lute List" <[5]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Monica. My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you with correct typeface etc) I think we must still agree to disagree about much of this!...... Best wishes, Martyn From: "[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: [8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes <[9]dshos...@mac.com>; VihuelaList <[10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single page of the pdf. = [MH: Yes - it's a shame about this]- = -I will try to refer to the correct ones. -To recapFolio 48r is headed "Fundamenta Gytarra". = [MH: Indeed, and not as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly pointed out in my last] = -The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped courses and one additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed "Accordo Gytarra et Mandora". = [MH: This is an incorrect assumption. The overwhelming bulk of pieces in this MS are clearly written for just a five course instrument (see my telling note earlier about the transcription for a five course instrument - I naturally suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?) piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora) = .-You are right â I agree that these are two different instruments. The Gytarra has five stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section of the tablature. = [MH: No, you've got this mixed up, as explained earlier and again in this mail. The gytarra has five courses, the madora six. The theorboed instrument is probably a theorboed guitar. Adn:- the mandora at this time did not have such extra basses - see below] = The Mandora has seven unstopped basses as shown in the second section of tablature. It is to be assumed that the stopped courses of both instruments are tuned in the same way. It is not for a five course gytarra or a six course mandora as you seem to suggest. = [MH: This is a mistaken view of what the source tells us since, as already pointed out, most of the pieces (some 85% of them) in the MS are for just a five course instrument. You have assumed that the part between the first set of double bar lines refers equally to the gytarra and to the mandora. As already explained, this is mistaken because the overwhelming bulk of pieces in the MS are, in fact, for a five course instrument (thegytarra) rather than for the common mandora tuning with six courses. I examine this matter again below] = -I don't think either of these two examples refer to an instrument with just five stopped courses. = [ MH: as said above, you appear to have overlooked contrary information about the tablature already brought to your attention earlier.] = -On Folio 96r there is a table of alfabeto chords and a tablature tuningchart headed "Accordo aliud" (?). If that is right I assume it means "another tuning" but my Latin or Czech is pretty basic. In the table of chords, the open courses to be included are only shown for Chord E; Chord is very odd â Indeed, as pointed out, they are wrong - a B flatminor chord with G on the first course. There are stroke marks on thelowest line. = [MH: No - this is a simple bowlderisation and inaccurate representation of nominal five course guitar tuning (as employed in the following aria set in tablature AND with Alafbeto - see my earlier note about this feature in this particular piece which has been overlooked). Clearly the tuning diagram showing an octave between the open first and fifth fret on the third course makes no sense - neither does that between the third fret of the second course and the open third course! The scribe has simply got the cou
[VIHUELA] Re: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
Thank you Daniel - it is really nice to hear some of the music we are discussing. Best Monica Original Message From: dshos...@mac.com Date: 07/01/2018 23:01 To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing I really appreciate all the comments and feedback. Here is how 2 of the pieces sound on baroque guitar in “conventional” french baroque stringing. https://youtu.be/RuTddcGOLRg <https://youtu.be/RuTddcGOLRg> > On Jan 7, 2018, at 4:40 PM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: > > > It seems that this message and Martyn's which preceded it were sent to > the baroque lute list but not to this list. In the interests of > continuity I am forwarding my reply with his message below. Enjoy! > Original Message > From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > Date: 07/01/2018 15:58 > To: , "Daniel Shoskes", > "VihuelaList", "Baroque Lute List" l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subj: Re: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five > course guitar stringing > > I can't possibly respond to all of this. You seem to be so muddled > that it is difficult to grasp what you actually mean.. > I think your interpretation of the tablature tuning checks is simply > wrong. The fact that much of the music does not use the sixth > unstopped > course,(or for that matter the seven unstopped courses of the mandora) > is irrelevant. The tablature tuning check for the gytara indicates > that it has 5 stopped courses and one unstopped bass. You are muddling > up two different facets of the manuscript. None of this has any > bearing > on how the 5-course guitar was strung. > > My analysis of the keys of the pieces is as accurate as I could make > in > the time available.The pieces which use the sixth course are in C > major > or flat keys and the ones which do not are almost all in A major, with > a few in D major. The manuscript was obviously copied over a period > of time. The pieces from f.76v form a new section with pieces > numbered > 1-56, probably copied at a later date. The manuscript is a very > complex document. > > You also seem to be confused about Stradivarius. It is not clear > whether these instruments are lute shaped or figure of 8 shaped. The > surviving patterns are of the neck and pegboxes only. The stringing > instructions for the one of them indicate that the high octave strings > are on the thumb side of the course. > > I will have to leave it there. > > As ever > Monica > > Original Message > From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > Date: 07/01/2018 14:48 > To: "Monica Hall", "Daniel Shoskes" > com>, "VihuelaList", "Baroque Lute List" > > Subj: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course > guitar stringing > > Dear Monica. > My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for > clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for > the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard > typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you > with correct typeface etc) > I think we must still agree to disagree about much of > this!.. > Best wishes, > Martyn > From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" > To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes ; > VihuelaList > Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41 > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five > course guitar stringing > > Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of > the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the > film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single > page > of the pdf.-[MH: Yes - it's a shame about this]- I will try to refer > to the correct ones. > To recapFolio 48r is headed “Fundamenta Gytarra”. -[MH: Indeed, and > not > as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly pointed out in my last] > - The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped > courses and one additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed > “Accordo Gytarra et Mandora”. -[MH: This is an incorrect assumption. > The overwhelming bulk of pieces of pieces in this MS are clearly > written for just a five course instrument (see my telling note > earlier > about the transcription for a five course instrument - I naturally > suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?) > piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora).- You > are righ
[VIHUELA] Re: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
I really appreciate all the comments and feedback. Here is how 2 of the pieces
sound on baroque guitar in âconventionalâ french baroque stringing.
https://youtu.be/RuTddcGOLRg <https://youtu.be/RuTddcGOLRg>
> On Jan 7, 2018, at 4:40 PM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
>
>
> It seems that this message and Martyn's which preceded it were sent to
> the baroque lute list but not to this list. In the interests of
> continuity I am forwarding my reply with his message below. Enjoy!
> Original Message
> From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> Date: 07/01/2018 15:58
> To: , "Daniel Shoskes",
> "VihuelaList", "Baroque Lute List" l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subj: Re: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five
> course guitar stringing
>
> I can't possibly respond to all of this. You seem to be so muddled
> that it is difficult to grasp what you actually mean..
> I think your interpretation of the tablature tuning checks is simply
> wrong. The fact that much of the music does not use the sixth
> unstopped
> course,(or for that matter the seven unstopped courses of the mandora)
> is irrelevant. The tablature tuning check for the gytara indicates
> that it has 5 stopped courses and one unstopped bass. You are muddling
> up two different facets of the manuscript. None of this has any
> bearing
> on how the 5-course guitar was strung.
>
> My analysis of the keys of the pieces is as accurate as I could make
> in
> the time available.The pieces which use the sixth course are in C
> major
> or flat keys and the ones which do not are almost all in A major, with
> a few in D major. The manuscript was obviously copied over a period
> of time. The pieces from f.76v form a new section with pieces
> numbered
> 1-56, probably copied at a later date. The manuscript is a very
> complex document.
>
> You also seem to be confused about Stradivarius. It is not clear
> whether these instruments are lute shaped or figure of 8 shaped. The
> surviving patterns are of the neck and pegboxes only. The stringing
> instructions for the one of them indicate that the high octave strings
> are on the thumb side of the course.
>
> I will have to leave it there.
>
> As ever
> Monica
>
> Original Message
> From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> Date: 07/01/2018 14:48
> To: "Monica Hall", "Daniel Shoskes"
> com>, "VihuelaList", "Baroque Lute List"
>
> Subj: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course
> guitar stringing
>
> Dear Monica.
> My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for
> clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for
> the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard
> typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you
> with correct typeface etc)
> I think we must still agree to disagree about much of
> this!..
> Best wishes,
> Martyn
> From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"
> To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes ;
> VihuelaList
> Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five
> course guitar stringing
>
> Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of
> the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the
> film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single
> page
> of the pdf.-[MH: Yes - it's a shame about this]- I will try to refer
> to the correct ones.
> To recapFolio 48r is headed âFundamenta Gytarraâ. -[MH: Indeed, and
> not
> as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly pointed out in my last]
> - The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped
> courses and one additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed
> âAccordo Gytarra et Mandoraâ. -[MH: This is an incorrect assumption.
> The overwhelming bulk of pieces of pieces in this MS are clearly
> written for just a five course instrument (see my telling note
> earlier
> about the transcription for a five course instrument - I naturally
> suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?)
> piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora).-You
> are right â I agree that these are two different instruments. The
> Gytarra has five
> stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section
> of
> the tablature. -
> {MH: No, you've got this mixed up, as explained earlier and again in
> this mail. The gytarra has five courses, the madora six. The theor
[VIHUELA] Re: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
It seems that this message and Martyn's which preceded it were sent to
the baroque lute list but not to this list. In the interests of
continuity I am forwarding my reply with his message below. Enjoy!
Original Message
From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Date: 07/01/2018 15:58
To: , "Daniel Shoskes",
"VihuelaList", "Baroque Lute List"
Subj: Re: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five
course guitar stringing
I can't possibly respond to all of this. You seem to be so muddled
that it is difficult to grasp what you actually mean..
I think your interpretation of the tablature tuning checks is simply
wrong. The fact that much of the music does not use the sixth
unstopped
course,(or for that matter the seven unstopped courses of the mandora)
is irrelevant. The tablature tuning check for the gytara indicates
that it has 5 stopped courses and one unstopped bass. You are muddling
up two different facets of the manuscript. None of this has any
bearing
on how the 5-course guitar was strung.
My analysis of the keys of the pieces is as accurate as I could make
in
the time available.The pieces which use the sixth course are in C
major
or flat keys and the ones which do not are almost all in A major, with
a few in D major. The manuscript was obviously copied over a period
of time. The pieces from f.76v form a new section with pieces
numbered
1-56, probably copied at a later date. The manuscript is a very
complex document.
You also seem to be confused about Stradivarius. It is not clear
whether these instruments are lute shaped or figure of 8 shaped. The
surviving patterns are of the neck and pegboxes only. The stringing
instructions for the one of them indicate that the high octave strings
are on the thumb side of the course.
I will have to leave it there.
As ever
Monica
Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: 07/01/2018 14:48
To: "Monica Hall", "Daniel Shoskes"
, "VihuelaList", "Baroque Lute List"
Subj: Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course
guitar stringing
Dear Monica.
My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for
clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for
the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard
typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you
with correct typeface etc)
I think we must still agree to disagree about much of
this!..
Best wishes,
Martyn
From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"
To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes ;
VihuelaList
Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five
course guitar stringing
Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of
the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the
film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single
page
of the pdf.-[MH: Yes - it's a shame about this]- I will try to refer
to the correct ones.
To recapFolio 48r is headed “Fundamenta Gytarra”. -[MH: Indeed, and
not
as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly pointed out in my last]
- The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped
courses and one additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed
“Accordo Gytarra et Mandora”. -[MH: This is an incorrect assumption.
The overwhelming bulk of pieces of pieces in this MS are clearly
written for just a five course instrument (see my telling note
earlier
about the transcription for a five course instrument - I naturally
suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?)
piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora).-You
are right – I agree that these are two different instruments. The
Gytarra has five
stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section
of
the tablature. -
{MH: No, you've got this mixed up, as explained earlier and again in
this mail. The gytarra has five courses, the madora six. The theorboed
instrument is probably a theorboed guitar a la Strad or similar..
- The Mandora has seven unstopped basses as shown in the
second section of tablature. It is to be assumed that the stopped
courses of both instruments are tuned in the same way. It is not for a
five course gytarra or a six course mandora as you seem to suggest.
-[MH: This is a mistaken view of what the source tells us since,
as already pointed out, most of the pieces (some 85% of them) in the
MS are for just a five course instrument. You have assumed that the
part between the first set of double bar lines refers equally to the
gytarra and to the mandora. As already explained, this is mistaken
because the overwhelming bulk of pieces in the MS are, in fact, for
a
five course instrument (thegytarra) rather than for
[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single page of the pdf. I will try to refer to the correct ones. To recap Folio 48r is headed “Fundamenta Gytarra”. The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped courses and one additional unstopped bass course Folio 48v is headed “Accordo Gytarra et Mandora”. You are right – I agree that these are two different instruments. The Gytarra has five stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section of the tablature. The Mandora has seven unstopped basses as shown in the second section of tablature. It is to be assumed that the stopped courses of both instruments are tuned in the same way. It is not for a five course gytarra or a six course mandora as you seem to suggest. I don’t think either of these two examples refer to an instrument with just five stopped courses. On Folio 96r there is a table of alfabeto chords and a tablature tuning chart headed “Accordo aliud” (?). If that is right I assume it means “another tuning” but my Latin or Czech is pretty basic. In the table of chords, the open courses to be included are only shown for Chord E; Chord is very odd – a B flat minor chord with G on the first course. There are stroke marks on the lowest line. As far as the pieces are concerned, whether or not the unstopped sixth course is used seems to depend on the key of the piece. Those on f. 48v- f.59v which use the sixth course are mostly in C major or keys without sharps, whilst those from f. 60r –f.76v are in A major or D major i.e. keys with sharps where there is no call for a low G natural. >From f.76v the pieces are numbered starting with 1 which seems to represent a new “campaign” of copying. None of them use the unstopped G – they could be for 5-course guitar or whatever instrument you wish. There is nothing that lends weight to your suggestion that the gytarra is a figure of eight-shaped instrument. It is could be lute shaped or figure of eight - we simply don't know. As far as I can see nothing in the manuscript sheds any light on the position of the high octave strings in the 18th century. As far as I can recall I have never agreed that eighteenth-century placement of the octave strings might well not be the same as the earlier seventeenth century usage. On the contrary the fact that two mid-eighteenth century sources (Corette and Rousseau in Diderpt’s Encyclopedie) clearly refer to the placement of the high octave strings on the thumb side of a course suggests to me that this practice persisted well into the eighteenth century whatever the style of the music. Corette's music seems to be fairly standard Galant stuff. That’s as much as I have time for today. Monica Original Message From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 05/01/2018 14:26 To: "Monica Hall", "Daniel Shoskes", "VihuelaList" Subj: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Monica, Thanks for this. Further comments on MS D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum The numbering on the document (by the archivist?) is of folios - not pages or pdf pages - I think it better to use folios to avoid ambiguity (eg are your pdf pages in the correct folio sequence?). Folio 48 (presumably your pdf 49) is headed' Fundamenta Gytarra' (I now think a reading as 'Chytarra' is probably simply the scribe's elaborate flourish) Folio 48v (your 50?) is headed 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' The principal tuning (given between the first set of double bar lines) is for a six course mandora or five course gytarra. However, the low sixth course is only employed for the first few pieces (around 15% only of the entire collection) and the remaining pieces employ a five course instrument (whether a guitar or a mandora). Particularly relevant here is the Rondeau C. Loschi (Losy?) on 51V which employs the sixth course: however, the same piece is again written out later in the collection (Rondon f.75) but, tellingly, without the sixth course (g) and with the errant note simply replaced by the open third course. Precisely the same practice might have also been readily followed for the few earlier pieces (fol 48v to 57) by a player with only a five course instrument. Finally, F 96 actually has a table for guitar Alfabeto giving both the usual shorthand symbols and their tablature interpretation. This is followed (96v) by a piece in mixed notation employing both tablature and Alfabeto symbols (in fact, B, F and G). Whilst telling us nothing unambiguous about the instrument's shape, it is yet more weight to suggest a normal guitar shaped instrument of the period
[VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
Dear Monica, Thanks for this. Further comments on MS D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum The numbering on the document (by the archivist?) is of folios - not pages or pdf pages - I think it better to use folios to avoid ambiguity (eg are your pdf pages in the correct folio sequence?). Folio 48 (presumably your pdf 49) is headed' Fundamenta Gytarra' (I now think a reading as 'Chytarra' is probably simply the scribe's elaborate flourish) Folio 48v (your 50?) is headed 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' The principal tuning (given between the first set of double bar lines) is for a six course mandora or five course gytarra. However, the low sixth course is only employed for the first few pieces (around 15% only of the entire collection) and the remaining pieces employ a five course instrument (whether a guitar or a mandora). Particularly relevant here is the Rondeau C. Loschi (Losy?) on 51V which employs the sixth course: however, the same piece is again written out later in the collection (Rondon f.75) but, tellingly, without the sixth course (g) and with the errant note simply replaced by the open third course. Precisely the same practice might have also been readily followed for the few earlier pieces (fol 48v to 57) by a player with only a five course instrument. Finally, F 96 actually has a table for guitar Alfabeto giving both the usual shorthand symbols and their tablature interpretation. This is followed (96v) by a piece in mixed notation employing both tablature and Alfabeto symbols (in fact, B, F and G). Whilst telling us nothing unambiguous about the instrument's shape, it is yet more weight to suggest a normal guitar shaped instrument of the period was expected for the Gytarra. Regarding the heading on 48v, this actually reads 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' (ie tuning of gytarra AND mandora) - not Cytarra A Mandore (perhaps the pdf is a poor copy?). This precise wording also clearly implies two different instruments but both having the same basic tuning for five courses - otherwise it would have been Gytarra aliter Mandora, or similar, to show that two different words were in that case referring to one and the same instrument. I, of course, understand that this says nothing explicit about the shape of the gytarra (Just because something is called a "cytarra" doesn't mean that it is a figure of eight shaped insturment), but I think it highly unlikely to be lute shaped like the mandora - else why have the two instruments at all? Accordingly, I think, on the balance of probabilities, that the gytarra was, indeed, probably shaped differently to the lute - and most likely as contemporary guitar . We may simply have to agree to disagree over this. Further comments on Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course guitar I had thought, following our earlier discussion those few years back, that you agreed that eighteenth century placement of the octave strings might well not be the same as the earlier seventeenth century usage. But let me stress: this is not really just about a 'satisfactory bass line' (and you know that we agree that this is not a necessary feature of much seventeenth century guitar music) but more to do with the rather different musical style and texture of the later (early/mid) eighteenth century period. Regarding the placing of the high octave string on the bass side as general eighteenth practice (several 18th century sources indicate this explicitly suggests that it was the standard way of stringing), the only source from the early eighteenth century (the rough date of D-189) which suggests this are Stradivari's (c. 1700) instructions which, in my view, reflects earlier seventeenth century practice. The placement of the octave string on the lower courses was raised in my earlier about MS D-189 because, since we do know the placement of octaves on the mandora (ie on the treble side of a course), this source therefore adds some further weight to the placing of these on the instrument(s) expected for this music Finally and again, we may have to agree to disagree: - in this case about central/northern European guitar tuning in the eighteenth century for music like that in D189 as well as the interesting works by Diesel and others... Best wishes for 2018. Martyn - Forwarded Message - From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" To: VihuelaList Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2018, 15:12 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Martyn, Ralf and anyone else who is interested First of all, the instrument referred to as a "Cytarra" or "Gytarra" on p.49 of the pd
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
um.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95.pdf Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course guitar The sources which clearly indicate the high octave on the 'bass' side of the five course are all eighteenth century: principally Stradivari's (c 1710) instructions for stringing a sort of theorboed guitar; Diderot in 1757 and Merchi in 1761. A couple of iconographic sources may, or may not, indicate the earlier placement continuing into the eighteenth century .. The placement of the high octave on the 'bass' side in the French (aka Corbetta) tuning has nowadays been generally accepted and, in some circumstances, may seem to resolve some problems of voice leading etc - conversely it can also do exactly the opposite! My view is that for much seventeenth century music, voice leading jumps etc resulting from a fully re-entrant or French tuning are simply a part of the instrument's novel texture and style, but that in the more treble and bass orientated works of the eighteenth century (eg the above) the bass string of the fourth (and fifth) course is more suitable if on the 'bass' side of the guitar This is much based on my own experience in playing Diesel, the 'Losy' guitar works, D-189 MS and some other late 'guitar' sources on the mandora (with its bass strings on the bass side). In my view this arrangement gives a much more satisfactory musical result for the style and period of this later music. But, of course, this is something of a subjective judgement... Martyn From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" To: dshos...@mac.com Cc: VihuelaList Sent: Wednesday, 3 January 2018, 20:28 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript The music in tablature appears to be for 5-course guitar. There are a few 5-part chords which could be strummed but it seems to be mainly in lute style and perhaps mid 18th century. How do we know that the music is actually by Losy? Which library owns it today? The rest seems to be for mandora or gallichon. Martyn may know more about it if he has read this. Monica Original Message From: dshos...@mac.com Date: 03/01/2018 19:02 To: "WALSH STUART" Cc: "VihuelaList", "Monica Hall" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript Sorry, letâs try a dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0 <https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0> > On Jan 3, 2018, at 1:57 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: > > On 1/3/2018 5:07 PM, DANIEL SHOSKES wrote: >> Iââ¬â¢ve come across the Moravsky manuscript which is an interesting mix of bandora, baroque guitar, ââ¬Å6 string/courseâ⠬ guitar and other works in standard notation. Much music of Losy (Logy). >> >> A link is here: http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271 <http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271> > > I get the following message: > > You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. > > > >> >> If anyone has info on the Ms, Iââ¬â¢d like to ask the following: >> >> 1) On page 48 there is a page of tuning for guitar and mandora. While note values aren't given for the guitar the sixth course for the mandora is a G and that seems to work for the guitar pieces. Is there evidence for a 6 course guitar that Losy composed for? I've tried them on my Romantic guitar just playing the E string stopped at the 3rd fret. >> >> 2) Any sources for the tuning that Losy used? Switching between the Romatic guitar and my baroque guitar in re-entrant tuning some pieces seem better suited to one of the other. >> >> 3) How clear are the attributions to Losy? I did find one Rondeau that says Logi but appears in the Haslemere lute MS attributed to Weiss and in another attributed to von Bohrenfels. >> >> 4) None of the guitar works have strumming indications. All plucked or would the performance practice to be strum away? >> >> Thanks >> >> Danny >> >> >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > --
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
- Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" ; "dshos...@mac.com" Cc: VihuelaList ; Baroque Lute List Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2018, 11:33 Subject: Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Monica, Comments on D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum We briefly discussed this interesting MS some four years ago - partly in the context of the placement of the octave strings on the fourth (and fifth) course of the five course guitar. I also recall posting something on Wayne's baroque guitar list (or was it Early guitar.ning?) around this time. I was especially interested in the stated link in this MS between (aka mandora) and the guitar and possible implications for placement of the high octave strings on the fourth (and fifth?) course. This MS contains pieces for five course guitar, mandora/callichon, and the viola di(a) gamb(a). Folio.3 has tunings for a five course instrument which the MS calls the 'Calledono' and folio 48 (gamba pieces and blanks between) gives elementary instructions for the five course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'. Of special interest is folio 48v headed 'Accorde Chytarra et Mandora' which unequivocally relates the two instruments and gives the identical tuning in note names for both: a, d, g, h(ie B), e. Especially note that the note names for each course are all given as low case (even the extended basses, see below) and there is no octave or octave stringing indicated - accordingly from this alone, no conclusive judgements can be made whether the source requires re-entrant or low bourdons, or what arrangement for bass stringing.. This is followed by instructions for tuning seven addition bass course (presumably a theorboed guitar and/or mandora - both instruments not entirely unknown of course) from sixth down to twelfth course (notated by numbers 6 through to 12): g, f or f#, e, d, c or c#, h(B) or b(Bb), a. However only the first musical example employs these additional low basses - and even then only as an alternative to fingered fifth course which is also notated - presumably meant to illustrate the practice. Playing the music I was struck by how similar they pieces were in texture to contemporary works for mandora and also the guitar works attributed to Logy and also, and especially, those by Nathanial Diesel. It all made me wonder if the high octave on the 'bass' side was as general as we all nowadays usually suppose? From the texture of the music I'm confident that the Diesel is for a low octave on the bass side - it's also not that much later than the attrib Logy pieces. So I wonder if in German speaking (and Nordic lands) around this time (ie early/mid eighteenth century) the practice may have been closer to the 5 course mandora where the low octave is certainly on the bass side. This paper below discusses some possible sources of Logy's works [1]http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicology_Toda y-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s 77-95.pdf Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course guitar The sources which clearly indicate the high octave on the 'bass' side of the five course are all eighteenth century: principally Stradivari's (c 1710) instructions for stringing a sort of theorboed guitar; Diderot in 1757 and Merchi in 1761. A couple of iconographic sources may, or may not, indicate the earlier placement continuing into the eighteenth century .. The placement of the high octave on the 'bass' side in the French (aka Corbetta) tuning has nowadays been generally accepted and, in some circumstances, may seem to resolve some problems of voice leading etc - conversely it can also do exactly the opposite! My view is that for much seventeenth century music, voice leading jumps etc resulting from a fully re-entrant or French tuning are simply a part of the instrument's novel texture and style, but that in the more treble and bass orientated works of the eighteenth century (eg the above) the bass string of the fourth (and fifth) course is more suitable if on the 'bass' side of the guitar This is much based on my own experience in playing Diesel, the 'Losy' guitar works, D-189 MS and some other late 'guitar' sources on the mandora (with its bass strings on the bass side). In my view this arrangement gives a much more satisfactory musical result for the style and period of this later music. But, of course, this is something of a subjective judgement... Martyn __ From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk&q
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript
Am Donnerstag, 04. Januar 2018 10:59 CET, "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" schrieb: > Updating it yet again - I keep getting interrupted - but the tuning > chart seems to indicate that the 5th course is tuned in unison with the > third course stopped at the 2nd fret which would make it re-entrant. > Monica Which tuning chart? The one on pdf page 97 (pencil foliation 96r.)? That chart (fol. 96r.) doesn't indicate octave disposition at all. It might only show pitch class (similar to the bass string indications on fol. 48 v. The 'Accordo Chitarra9 et Mandora' on that page only gives octaves. BTW, a Mandora with 12 strings? Pretty interesting, IMHO. Of course that would be an easy reuse for an out-of-fashion baroque lute. BTW, the 'Fundamenta Chitarra9' on fol. 48r. (pdf 49) does show a 6 string, but only unfretted. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript
Thanks for all your insights Monica! > On Jan 4, 2018, at 4:59 AM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: > > Updating it yet again - I keep getting interrupted - but the tuning > chart seems to indicate that the 5th course is tuned in unison with the > third course stopped at the 2nd fret which would make it re-entrant. > Monica > > Original Message > From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > Date: 04/01/2018 9:51 > To: "VihuelaList" > Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript > > Updating my previous message - and having looked more carefully at the > manuscript I am not sure that all the music in tablature is for 5- > course guitar. The pieces on p.50-61 seem to require an unstopped 6th > course and one piece on p.91 requires 5 open corse. On p.97 there is a > table of alfabeto chords and a tuning chart apparently for 5-course > guitar. > > Original Message > From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > Date: 04/01/2018 9:48 > To: "VihuelaList" > Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript > > > > I had a bit more time to look at this - I actually have a pdf of it > already. It is (or was) in the > Moravské zemské muzeum in Brno in the Czech Republic. > > I don't think we can assume that all the music is by Losy or that all > of it was originally composed for guitar. I never had time to look at > all the pieces - about 50 pages of them. Maybe one day. > Monica > > > > Original Message > From: dshos...@mac.com > Date: 04/01/2018 0:17 > To: > Cc: "VihuelaList" > Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript > > Sadly the only info is what the pdf file contains. One piece that > mentions “Logi”. A couple pieces with lute concordances by other > composers. > >> On Jan 3, 2018, at 3:27 PM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: >> >> The music in tablature appears to be for 5-course guitar. There are > a >> few 5-part chords which could be strummed but it seems to be mainly > in >> lute style and perhaps mid 18th century. How do we know that the > music >> is actually by Losy? Which library owns it today? >> The rest seems to be for mandora or gallichon. Martyn may know more >> about it if he has read this. >> >> Monica >> >> >> >> Original Message >> From: dshos...@mac.com >> Date: 03/01/2018 19:02 >> To: "WALSH STUART" >> Cc: "VihuelaList", "Monica Hall" >> >> Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript >> >> Sorry, letâs try a dropbox: >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0 > > > > >> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0> > > > > >> >> >> >>> On Jan 3, 2018, at 1:57 PM, WALSH STUART >> wrote: >>> >>> On 1/3/2018 5:07 PM, DANIEL SHOSKES wrote: >>>> Iââ¬â¢ve come across the Moravsky manuscript which is an >> interesting mix of bandora, baroque guitar, ââ¬Å6 string/courseâ > â >> ¬Â guitar and other works in standard notation. Much music of Losy >> (Logy). >>>> >>>> A link is here: http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271 > > > > >> <http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271> >>> >>> I get the following message: >>> >>> You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached >> to this post. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> If anyone has info on the Ms, Iââ¬â¢d like to ask the following: >>>> >>>> 1) On page 48 there is a page of tuning for guitar and mandora. >> While note values aren't given for the guitar the sixth course for > the >> mandora is a G and that seems to work for the guitar pieces. Is > there >> evidence for a 6 course guitar that Losy composed for? I've tried > them >> on my Romantic guitar just playing the E string stopped at the 3rd >> fret. >>>> >>>> 2) Any sources for the tuning that Losy used? Switching between > the >> Romatic guitar and my baroque guitar in re-entrant tuning some > pieces >> seem better suited to one of the other. >>>> >>>> 3) How clear are the attributions to Losy? I did find one Rondeau >> that says Logi but appears in the Haslemere lute MS attributed to > Weiss >> and in another attributed to von Bohrenfels. >>>> >>>> 4) None of the guitar works have strumming indications. All > plucked >> or would the performance practice to be strum away? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Danny >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript
Updating it yet again - I keep getting interrupted - but the tuning chart seems to indicate that the 5th course is tuned in unison with the third course stopped at the 2nd fret which would make it re-entrant. Monica Original Message From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: 04/01/2018 9:51 To: "VihuelaList" Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript Updating my previous message - and having looked more carefully at the manuscript I am not sure that all the music in tablature is for 5- course guitar. The pieces on p.50-61 seem to require an unstopped 6th course and one piece on p.91 requires 5 open corse. On p.97 there is a table of alfabeto chords and a tuning chart apparently for 5-course guitar. Original Message From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: 04/01/2018 9:48 To: "VihuelaList" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript I had a bit more time to look at this - I actually have a pdf of it already. It is (or was) in the Moravské zemské muzeum in Brno in the Czech Republic. I don't think we can assume that all the music is by Losy or that all of it was originally composed for guitar. I never had time to look at all the pieces - about 50 pages of them. Maybe one day. Monica Original Message From: dshos...@mac.com Date: 04/01/2018 0:17 To: Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript Sadly the only info is what the pdf file contains. One piece that mentions “Logi”. A couple pieces with lute concordances by other composers. > On Jan 3, 2018, at 3:27 PM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: > > The music in tablature appears to be for 5-course guitar. There are a > few 5-part chords which could be strummed but it seems to be mainly in > lute style and perhaps mid 18th century. How do we know that the music > is actually by Losy? Which library owns it today? > The rest seems to be for mandora or gallichon. Martyn may know more > about it if he has read this. > > Monica > > > > Original Message > From: dshos...@mac.com > Date: 03/01/2018 19:02 > To: "WALSH STUART" > Cc: "VihuelaList", "Monica Hall" > > Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript > > Sorry, letâs try a dropbox: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0 > <https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0> > > > >> On Jan 3, 2018, at 1:57 PM, WALSH STUART > wrote: >> >> On 1/3/2018 5:07 PM, DANIEL SHOSKES wrote: >>> Iââ¬â¢ve come across the Moravsky manuscript which is an > interesting mix of bandora, baroque guitar, ââ¬Å6 string/courseâ â > ¬Â guitar and other works in standard notation. Much music of Losy > (Logy). >>> >>> A link is here: http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271 > <http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271> >> >> I get the following message: >> >> You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached > to this post. >> >> >> >>> >>> If anyone has info on the Ms, Iââ¬â¢d like to ask the following: >>> >>> 1) On page 48 there is a page of tuning for guitar and mandora. > While note values aren't given for the guitar the sixth course for the > mandora is a G and that seems to work for the guitar pieces. Is there > evidence for a 6 course guitar that Losy composed for? I've tried them > on my Romantic guitar just playing the E string stopped at the 3rd > fret. >>> >>> 2) Any sources for the tuning that Losy used? Switching between the > Romatic guitar and my baroque guitar in re-entrant tuning some pieces > seem better suited to one of the other. >>> >>> 3) How clear are the attributions to Losy? I did find one Rondeau > that says Logi but appears in the Haslemere lute MS attributed to Weiss > and in another attributed to von Bohrenfels. >>> >>> 4) None of the guitar works have strumming indications. All plucked > or would the performance practice to be strum away? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Danny >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> > > > -- > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript
Updating my previous message - and having looked more carefully at the manuscript I am not sure that all the music in tablature is for 5- course guitar. The pieces on p.50-61 seem to require an unstopped 6th course and one piece on p.91 requires 5 open corse. On p.97 there is a table of alfabeto chords and a tuning chart apparently for 5-course guitar. Original Message From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: 04/01/2018 9:48 To: "VihuelaList" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript I had a bit more time to look at this - I actually have a pdf of it already. It is (or was) in the Moravské zemské muzeum in Brno in the Czech Republic. I don't think we can assume that all the music is by Losy or that all of it was originally composed for guitar. I never had time to look at all the pieces - about 50 pages of them. Maybe one day. Monica Original Message From: dshos...@mac.com Date: 04/01/2018 0:17 To: Cc: "VihuelaList" Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript Sadly the only info is what the pdf file contains. One piece that mentions “Logi”. A couple pieces with lute concordances by other composers. > On Jan 3, 2018, at 3:27 PM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: > > The music in tablature appears to be for 5-course guitar. There are a > few 5-part chords which could be strummed but it seems to be mainly in > lute style and perhaps mid 18th century. How do we know that the music > is actually by Losy? Which library owns it today? > The rest seems to be for mandora or gallichon. Martyn may know more > about it if he has read this. > > Monica > > > > Original Message > From: dshos...@mac.com > Date: 03/01/2018 19:02 > To: "WALSH STUART" > Cc: "VihuelaList", "Monica Hall" > > Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript > > Sorry, letâs try a dropbox: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0 > <https://www.dropbox.com/s/oaqfczqgfio4gao/Losy-GuitareEtMandore.pdf?dl=0> > > > >> On Jan 3, 2018, at 1:57 PM, WALSH STUART > wrote: >> >> On 1/3/2018 5:07 PM, DANIEL SHOSKES wrote: >>> Iââ¬â¢ve come across the Moravsky manuscript which is an > interesting mix of bandora, baroque guitar, ââ¬Å6 string/courseâ â > ¬Â guitar and other works in standard notation. Much music of Losy > (Logy). >>> >>> A link is here: http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271 > <http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=67271> >> >> I get the following message: >> >> You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached > to this post. >> >> >> >>> >>> If anyone has info on the Ms, Iââ¬â¢d like to ask the following: >>> >>> 1) On page 48 there is a page of tuning for guitar and mandora. > While note values aren't given for the guitar the sixth course for the > mandora is a G and that seems to work for the guitar pieces. Is there > evidence for a 6 course guitar that Losy composed for? I've tried them > on my Romantic guitar just playing the E string stopped at the 3rd > fret. >>> >>> 2) Any sources for the tuning that Losy used? Switching between the > Romatic guitar and my baroque guitar in re-entrant tuning some pieces > seem better suited to one of the other. >>> >>> 3) How clear are the attributions to Losy? I did find one Rondeau > that says Logi but appears in the Haslemere lute MS attributed to Weiss > and in another attributed to von Bohrenfels. >>> >>> 4) None of the guitar works have strumming indications. All plucked > or would the performance practice to be strum away? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Danny >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> > > > -- > >
