Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

Maybe so.  haha. I still think “hints” is a bit misleading.  I just turned 
hints on and, its not just telling me what things do, its giving me access to 
information I had no idea even existed.  For example, with hints off, the 
weather widget in notifications center tells you the current temp, day or 
night, and weather condition.  With hints on, bringing Voiceover focus to the 
widget tells you that plus the high and low temperatures for the next 5 days.  
That’s a lot more than a friendly hint to double tap.

But like you said, maybe there will be a change pertaining this in IOS 7.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Aug 4, 2013, at 2:14 AM, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:

> Well, you only hear the hints after a bit of a pause, so I find it doesn't 
> bother me as far as overall VoiceOver verbosity is concerned.
> 
> I also find it analogous to those apps that use the number of items bubble to 
> let you know things like what temperature it is.
> 
> Who knows, maybe we'll get more granularity in IOS 7.
> 
> On 08/04/2013 01:10 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:
>> Wow!
>> 
>> Well I’ll be.  Thanks for that.  But, this makes absolutely no sense to me.  
>> On what planet is being able to read the preview of mail a hint?  I think 
>> having to make Voiceover so universally verbose just to hear the preview is 
>> annoying at best, unbearable at worse. :(.
>> 
>> Ricardo Walker
>> rica...@appletothecore.info
>> Twitter:@apple2thecore
>> www.appletothecore.info
>> 
>> On Aug 4, 2013, at 1:57 AM, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>>> Make sure hints are turned on. If VoiceOver hints is turned off, the 
>>> preview will not be read.
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On 04/08/2013, at 11:51, Nimit Gmail  wrote:
>>> 
 Hello all,
 You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone 
 mail app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the 
 preview of the email before you actually open to view it?  For example,
 Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
 trial
 and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my 
 subject and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the 
 mail app in order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my 
 mails, it stopped reading me the preview of the message like it used to 
 before.  By that, I mean, from my example, where I said, this is a test 
 message..  It stopped reading that.  I went into settings and mail, 
 contacts and callendar and preview and it's two lines.  What should I do, 
 so it reads me the preview instead of me having to open a message and 
 decide whether I want to delete it or what not.  What should I do?  Using 
 iPhone 5 with latest software version.  Thank you for your assistance.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
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Re: Restoring a prior version of an app

[Kimberly]

Thanks for the great explanation, Alan.

Sent from Kimber's iPhone

On Aug 2, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "Alan Lemly"  wrote:

> Kimber, you can roll back to a prior version of an app provided you made a
> back up copy of it to another folder on your computer. By default, apps are
> stored in a folder called Mobile Applications located under iTunes\iTunes
> Media below your default documents folder. The default documents folder will
> vary depending on your operating system. I've created a folder called Backup
> just under my Mobile Applications folder and whenever I install or upgrade
> an app, I make sure to copy its ipa file to this Backup folder in case I
> ever want to return to another version.
> 
> Provided you have a backup, you would uninstall the app on your phone by
> double tapping and holding its button until you hear that blurpy sound. You
> can then double tap its button again to delete it. Make sure you then press
> the home button once to return to normal operation from the editing/move
> mode. Then, on your computer, copy your previous app version's ipa file to
> the Automatically Add to iTunes folder which is located under the iTunes
> Media folder previously discussed. Launch iTunes which should ask you if you
> want to install an older version of an app already in your library. Tell it
> yes and then sync your phone with iTunes. This should put the older version
> back on your phone.
> 
> I'm getting ready to do this myself to return to All Access version 2.0 from
> the current 2.2 which is not working for me when I search restaurants by
> name.
> 
> Alan Lemly
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Kimber Gardner
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 8:32 AM
> To: viphone
> Subject: Restoring a prior version of an app
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'd like to go back to a prior version of Keeper since the newest
> version is broken, but I'm not sure how or even if it's possible.
> 
> I back my iPhone up to my laptop and haven't done a sync since
> updating Keeper on my phone. Is it possible to restore Keeper to the
> old version from my laptop? If it is, how do I do that?
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> Kimber
> 
> -- 
> Kimberly
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Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Christopher Chaltain]

Well, you only hear the hints after a bit of a pause, so I find it 
doesn't bother me as far as overall VoiceOver verbosity is concerned.


I also find it analogous to those apps that use the number of items 
bubble to let you know things like what temperature it is.


Who knows, maybe we'll get more granularity in IOS 7.

On 08/04/2013 01:10 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:

Wow!

Well I’ll be.  Thanks for that.  But, this makes absolutely no sense to me.  On 
what planet is being able to read the preview of mail a hint?  I think having 
to make Voiceover so universally verbose just to hear the preview is annoying 
at best, unbareable at worse. :(.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Aug 4, 2013, at 1:57 AM, David Chittenden  wrote:


Make sure hints are turned on. If VoiceOver hints is turned off, the preview 
will not be read.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 11:51, Nimit Gmail  wrote:


Hello all,
You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
the email before you actually open to view it?  For example,
Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
trial
and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app in 
order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it stopped 
reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By that, I mean, 
from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  It stopped reading 
that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and callendar and preview and 
it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me the preview instead of me 
having to open a message and decide whether I want to delete it or what not.  
What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest software version.  Thank you for 
your assistance.

Sent from my iPad

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chaltain at Gmail

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Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Ricardo Walker]

Wow!

Well I’ll be.  Thanks for that.  But, this makes absolutely no sense to me.  On 
what planet is being able to read the preview of mail a hint?  I think having 
to make Voiceover so universally verbose just to hear the preview is annoying 
at best, unbareable at worse. :(. 

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Aug 4, 2013, at 1:57 AM, David Chittenden  wrote:

> Make sure hints are turned on. If VoiceOver hints is turned off, the preview 
> will not be read.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 04/08/2013, at 11:51, Nimit Gmail  wrote:
> 
>> Hello all, 
>> You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
>> app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
>> the email before you actually open to view it?  For example, 
>> Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
>> trial
>> and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
>> and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app 
>> in order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it 
>> stopped reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By 
>> that, I mean, from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  
>> It stopped reading that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and 
>> callendar and preview and it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me 
>> the preview instead of me having to open a message and decide whether I want 
>> to delete it or what not.  What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest 
>> software version.  Thank you for your assistance. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Christopher Chaltain]

I agree AppleVis is a good example of crowd sourcing, but if this were 
to be implemented in the App Store then it would reach more blind people 
and have more visibility to the app developers.


You're right, in app purchases could be used to allow people to try 
software before buying, but I've only seen this implemented in the App 
Store in a very few cases. Maybe this will change over time.


On 08/04/2013 12:52 AM, David Chittenden wrote:

Yes, and the same exists in the App Store. Developers can choose to set up 
in-app purchases. It is no longer necessary for them to have a free version and 
a pay version.

As for crowd-sourcing, Applevis is our version of crowd sourcing. If you don't 
want to take any risks, stick to the apps which others state are accessible in 
our crowd-sourcing option.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 17:29, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:


I think the difference here is that there have been plenty of instances where 
I've been able to download a trial of some software, to determine if it's 
accessible or not. Sometimes it requires a key to be purchased before it stops 
functioning or it's functionality is some how limited until you purchase a key 
or an upgrade. In general, I don't purchase software for my PC unless I can try 
it out ahead of time or get a pretty detailed review or demo of the software. 
Apple's policies don't allow trials for apps in the App Store, so I think it's 
OK to ask Apple to be part of the solution here.

On 08/04/2013 12:11 AM, David Chittenden wrote:

Reading these messages, I am reminded of computer software throughout
the past 30 years.

When you purchase a program on disk in a store, the policy is, and has
been for the past 30 years, that if you open the packaging, you cannot
return the program. I wasted many dollars purchasing software that
turned out to be inaccessible. Very occasionally, I was able to convince
the shop to refund my money, but usually I was out of luck.

The real question is why has our computer culture been like this for at
least the previous 30 years? The answer is, software piracy. In the
beginning of computer usage, when disks took the place of punch cards,
people figured out how to exactly duplicate software. So, they would
purchase the program disk, take it home, open it, copy it, return the
disk to the store, say it did not meet their needs, get a refund, and
return home to use their now free software. The more enterprising
amongst them would share the software, or even sell the software. This
is otherwise known as piracy, and it is very big business. Oh, and save
for a few business enterprise exceptions, most purchased computer
software cannot be returned, even if it is inaccessible. And, it
definitely cannot be try-it before you buy-it.

So, what about the App Store? Apple ties your software purchase to your
account to reduce software piracy. However, any app you purchase
immediately and permanently exists on your iOS device and in any
external back-up medium. So, when you get a refund from Apple, you still
have access to the app. You will not be able to upgrade it without
purchasing it again, but the original software may well be in your
possession. Unless you agree to allow Apple to make random spot-checks
of your iOS device to confirm that you have, indeed, removed any and all
incidents of the software, and they can check in several months time to
continue verifying that you are not secretly running the software you
haven't paid for, well, that is the other side of the argument. If I was
an app developer, I would not want to know my apps were being pirated.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 13:45, Aman Singer mailto:aman.sin...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi, alan.
You say

what happens when a sighted person gets an app and  they think it
doesn't meet their needs.


With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told
the sighted user what the application would do. If the textual
description and the screenshots the app store presented gave an
accurate description of the app, then the user has nothing to complain
of. If the description was inaccurate, then the user should get a
refund. THe problem, of course, for the blind user is that the
description may or may not be true. The app may say it can do X, and
may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a user of VO. For the
VO user, the description is simply false unless it says that VO will
not work with the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled to
an accurate description, one which says whether the app will actually
do what it says it will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the
product to see if the description is false. Failing even that, the
user is entitled to a refund if the description turns out to be
nonsense. Apple has chose

Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[David Chittenden]

Make sure hints are turned on. If VoiceOver hints is turned off, the preview 
will not be read.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 11:51, Nimit Gmail  wrote:

> Hello all, 
> You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
> app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
> the email before you actually open to view it?  For example, 
> Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
> trial
> and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
> and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app in 
> order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it 
> stopped reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By 
> that, I mean, from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  It 
> stopped reading that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and callendar 
> and preview and it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me the preview 
> instead of me having to open a message and decide whether I want to delete it 
> or what not.  What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest software version. 
>  Thank you for your assistance. 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[David Chittenden]

Yes, and the same exists in the App Store. Developers can choose to set up 
in-app purchases. It is no longer necessary for them to have a free version and 
a pay version.

As for crowd-sourcing, Applevis is our version of crowd sourcing. If you don't 
want to take any risks, stick to the apps which others state are accessible in 
our crowd-sourcing option.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 17:29, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:

> I think the difference here is that there have been plenty of instances where 
> I've been able to download a trial of some software, to determine if it's 
> accessible or not. Sometimes it requires a key to be purchased before it 
> stops functioning or it's functionality is some how limited until you 
> purchase a key or an upgrade. In general, I don't purchase software for my PC 
> unless I can try it out ahead of time or get a pretty detailed review or demo 
> of the software. Apple's policies don't allow trials for apps in the App 
> Store, so I think it's OK to ask Apple to be part of the solution here.
> 
> On 08/04/2013 12:11 AM, David Chittenden wrote:
>> Reading these messages, I am reminded of computer software throughout
>> the past 30 years.
>> 
>> When you purchase a program on disk in a store, the policy is, and has
>> been for the past 30 years, that if you open the packaging, you cannot
>> return the program. I wasted many dollars purchasing software that
>> turned out to be inaccessible. Very occasionally, I was able to convince
>> the shop to refund my money, but usually I was out of luck.
>> 
>> The real question is why has our computer culture been like this for at
>> least the previous 30 years? The answer is, software piracy. In the
>> beginning of computer usage, when disks took the place of punch cards,
>> people figured out how to exactly duplicate software. So, they would
>> purchase the program disk, take it home, open it, copy it, return the
>> disk to the store, say it did not meet their needs, get a refund, and
>> return home to use their now free software. The more enterprising
>> amongst them would share the software, or even sell the software. This
>> is otherwise known as piracy, and it is very big business. Oh, and save
>> for a few business enterprise exceptions, most purchased computer
>> software cannot be returned, even if it is inaccessible. And, it
>> definitely cannot be try-it before you buy-it.
>> 
>> So, what about the App Store? Apple ties your software purchase to your
>> account to reduce software piracy. However, any app you purchase
>> immediately and permanently exists on your iOS device and in any
>> external back-up medium. So, when you get a refund from Apple, you still
>> have access to the app. You will not be able to upgrade it without
>> purchasing it again, but the original software may well be in your
>> possession. Unless you agree to allow Apple to make random spot-checks
>> of your iOS device to confirm that you have, indeed, removed any and all
>> incidents of the software, and they can check in several months time to
>> continue verifying that you are not secretly running the software you
>> haven't paid for, well, that is the other side of the argument. If I was
>> an app developer, I would not want to know my apps were being pirated.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 04/08/2013, at 13:45, Aman Singer > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi, alan.
>>> You say
 what happens when a sighted person gets an app and  they think it
 doesn't meet their needs.
>>> 
>>> With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told
>>> the sighted user what the application would do. If the textual
>>> description and the screenshots the app store presented gave an
>>> accurate description of the app, then the user has nothing to complain
>>> of. If the description was inaccurate, then the user should get a
>>> refund. THe problem, of course, for the blind user is that the
>>> description may or may not be true. The app may say it can do X, and
>>> may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a user of VO. For the
>>> VO user, the description is simply false unless it says that VO will
>>> not work with the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled to
>>> an accurate description, one which says whether the app will actually
>>> do what it says it will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the
>>> product to see if the description is false. Failing even that, the
>>> user is entitled to a refund if the description turns out to be
>>> nonsense. Apple has chosen not to allow the first or second options,
>>> it seems only reasonable, though not fully satisfactory, for them to
>>> allow the third.
>>> Aman
>>> dealer of what it 2013-08-03, at 1:08 PM, "Alan Paganelli"
>>> mailto:al

mophie juice Packs

[Andy Baracco]

For those who may be interested in buying a mophie Juice Pack, you can get them 
from Amazon for $20 to $25 cheaper than ordering them directly from Mophie. you 
can download the manuals from the Mophie.com web site, but don’t buy them there.

Andy
I'm not wearing a diaper, so don't try to change me.

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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Christopher Chaltain]

I apologize. I didn't mean to call anyone any names or do anything other 
than engage in a serious discussion. I hope you and the list will accept 
my apology.


On 08/04/2013 12:27 AM, Joseph FreeTech wrote:

This is going no where with you, all others please accept my apology as I'm
moving on from any interactions like this name calling stuff.

Joseph

- Original Message -
From: "Christopher Chaltain" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


Why do you assume I'm trying to one up you? I just don't agree with you.
That doesn't mean I'm trying to one up you.

Crowd sourcing and publicly rating applications is fairly common place
these days. It's not perfect, but if you get enough people on one side
or the other it becomes pretty evident that an app is either accessible
or it isn't. Of course, each person's rating is subjective but this will
be evened out in the aggregate. Are you saying that the ratings in the
App store or on Amazon are meaningless because each person's assessment
is subjective? If that's what you're saying then I wouldn't agree. These
ratings do have some value, although they may not be the be all and the
end all. They are another data point.

An automated test suite for accessibility wouldn't be perfect but it
would be a starting point. Again, it's another data point, and it could
be improved over time. It could also be used in conjunction with other
criteria, e.g. if you state your app is accessible in the App Store, and
it isn't, then customers and Apple can demand refunds. There are
automated test suites out there for accessibility, so this isn't a new
concept. It is true that they aren't perfect, and you're going to get
some false positives or some false negatives, but like I said, it's a
starting point and something to work off of.

I agree that accessibility is hard and needs to be well thought out, but
I'm not sure I see your alternative. It sounds like you're saying
accessibility is impossible so we shouldn't even try. I don't agree with
that at all, and I think discussions like this can help work out a
solution and some answers.

I'm sorry, but I also thought your analogy was silly. Even if you'd said
building a highway over the Atlantic between the US and Europe or
building a highway over the Pacific between the US and Asia, I still
would have thought it was a silly and pointless analogy. An analogy is
good when there's actually a relationship between what you're discussing
and the analogy you're making. In your case, you just picked something
at random that sounds impossible. Accessibility and assessing
accessibility is not impossible. It's hard, takes some thought and
ultimately will be a lot of work, but Apple has a lot of resources and
has demonstrated a commitment to accessibility, so I don't think it's
impossible, but it will be if people don't brain storm and discuss
different possibilities.

On 08/03/2013 11:31 PM, Joseph FreeTech wrote:

Oh no! not this list too! Why does everyone on these lists have to try to
one-up everyone else!

I prefaced my statements by conveying the Asian continent as an extreme
example. I think you understood what I meant.

Your crowd sourcing idea would not work because we're right back to what I
stated in regards to "who's opinion is best?"

The automated testing suite would not work as it will undoubtedly yield
tons
of false positives and will give the developer an "out" as he or she will
undoubtedly claim they ran their app through this suite and all looked
fine.

Because I've been here done that, I'm sorry but I'm now walking away from
this type of one upping. I think most got my point in that simply
demanding
for accessibility is not easy and involves lots of thought and. I just
wanted to convey a point which I'm sure all others got.

Joseph

- Original Message -
From: "Christopher Chaltain" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


If Apple were to implement something like this, I'd suggest using crowd
sourcing. I'm not saying it would be trivial, but add another
feedback/rating for accessibility and let users provide their input. Of
course, this wouldn't address the issue for the first few people that
had to buy and try an app before it's been reviewed by someone.

Apple could also invest in an automated accessibility test suite that
would give a rough indication if an app has met at least some basic
accessibility. This wouldn't be perfect, and there's still some
subjectivity, but it would be a starting point. Apple may already have
such a suite it uses for it's own apps.

It may be true that this idea hasn't been well thought out,, in that an
implementation hasn't been designed, but I think there are some
solutions out there that aren't as impossible as you imply. I also don't
think this is at all like asking for a super highway to be built across
the Atlant

Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Christopher Chaltain]

I think the difference here is that there have been plenty of instances 
where I've been able to download a trial of some software, to determine 
if it's accessible or not. Sometimes it requires a key to be purchased 
before it stops functioning or it's functionality is some how limited 
until you purchase a key or an upgrade. In general, I don't purchase 
software for my PC unless I can try it out ahead of time or get a pretty 
detailed review or demo of the software. Apple's policies don't allow 
trials for apps in the App Store, so I think it's OK to ask Apple to be 
part of the solution here.


On 08/04/2013 12:11 AM, David Chittenden wrote:

Reading these messages, I am reminded of computer software throughout
the past 30 years.

When you purchase a program on disk in a store, the policy is, and has
been for the past 30 years, that if you open the packaging, you cannot
return the program. I wasted many dollars purchasing software that
turned out to be inaccessible. Very occasionally, I was able to convince
the shop to refund my money, but usually I was out of luck.

The real question is why has our computer culture been like this for at
least the previous 30 years? The answer is, software piracy. In the
beginning of computer usage, when disks took the place of punch cards,
people figured out how to exactly duplicate software. So, they would
purchase the program disk, take it home, open it, copy it, return the
disk to the store, say it did not meet their needs, get a refund, and
return home to use their now free software. The more enterprising
amongst them would share the software, or even sell the software. This
is otherwise known as piracy, and it is very big business. Oh, and save
for a few business enterprise exceptions, most purchased computer
software cannot be returned, even if it is inaccessible. And, it
definitely cannot be try-it before you buy-it.

So, what about the App Store? Apple ties your software purchase to your
account to reduce software piracy. However, any app you purchase
immediately and permanently exists on your iOS device and in any
external back-up medium. So, when you get a refund from Apple, you still
have access to the app. You will not be able to upgrade it without
purchasing it again, but the original software may well be in your
possession. Unless you agree to allow Apple to make random spot-checks
of your iOS device to confirm that you have, indeed, removed any and all
incidents of the software, and they can check in several months time to
continue verifying that you are not secretly running the software you
haven't paid for, well, that is the other side of the argument. If I was
an app developer, I would not want to know my apps were being pirated.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 13:45, Aman Singer mailto:aman.sin...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi, alan.
You say

what happens when a sighted person gets an app and  they think it
doesn't meet their needs.


With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told
the sighted user what the application would do. If the textual
description and the screenshots the app store presented gave an
accurate description of the app, then the user has nothing to complain
of. If the description was inaccurate, then the user should get a
refund. THe problem, of course, for the blind user is that the
description may or may not be true. The app may say it can do X, and
may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a user of VO. For the
VO user, the description is simply false unless it says that VO will
not work with the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled to
an accurate description, one which says whether the app will actually
do what it says it will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the
product to see if the description is false. Failing even that, the
user is entitled to a refund if the description turns out to be
nonsense. Apple has chosen not to allow the first or second options,
it seems only reasonable, though not fully satisfactory, for them to
allow the third.
Aman
 dealer of what it 2013-08-03, at 1:08 PM, "Alan Paganelli"
mailto:alanandsuza...@earthlink.net>>
wrote:


Hi All,
My concern here is this.  So what happens when a sighted person gets
an app and  they think it doesn't meet their needs. Do they get a
refund?  I'd guess not.  This sounds to me to much like pulling out
the blind card. What I'm saying here is, if there is a satisfaction
guaranteed or your money back policy in place then that's one thing
but just because it doesn't work well with voice over may not fly.
---
Regards,
Alan
Go Chicago Bears in 2013!
Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act
now!  Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know
everything.
Please click on:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/

Ther

Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Joseph FreeTech]

This is going no where with you, all others please accept my apology as I'm 
moving on from any interactions like this name calling stuff.

Joseph

- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher Chaltain" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


Why do you assume I'm trying to one up you? I just don't agree with you.
That doesn't mean I'm trying to one up you.

Crowd sourcing and publicly rating applications is fairly common place
these days. It's not perfect, but if you get enough people on one side
or the other it becomes pretty evident that an app is either accessible
or it isn't. Of course, each person's rating is subjective but this will
be evened out in the aggregate. Are you saying that the ratings in the
App store or on Amazon are meaningless because each person's assessment
is subjective? If that's what you're saying then I wouldn't agree. These
ratings do have some value, although they may not be the be all and the
end all. They are another data point.

An automated test suite for accessibility wouldn't be perfect but it
would be a starting point. Again, it's another data point, and it could
be improved over time. It could also be used in conjunction with other
criteria, e.g. if you state your app is accessible in the App Store, and
it isn't, then customers and Apple can demand refunds. There are
automated test suites out there for accessibility, so this isn't a new
concept. It is true that they aren't perfect, and you're going to get
some false positives or some false negatives, but like I said, it's a
starting point and something to work off of.

I agree that accessibility is hard and needs to be well thought out, but
I'm not sure I see your alternative. It sounds like you're saying
accessibility is impossible so we shouldn't even try. I don't agree with
that at all, and I think discussions like this can help work out a
solution and some answers.

I'm sorry, but I also thought your analogy was silly. Even if you'd said
building a highway over the Atlantic between the US and Europe or
building a highway over the Pacific between the US and Asia, I still
would have thought it was a silly and pointless analogy. An analogy is
good when there's actually a relationship between what you're discussing
and the analogy you're making. In your case, you just picked something
at random that sounds impossible. Accessibility and assessing
accessibility is not impossible. It's hard, takes some thought and
ultimately will be a lot of work, but Apple has a lot of resources and
has demonstrated a commitment to accessibility, so I don't think it's
impossible, but it will be if people don't brain storm and discuss
different possibilities.

On 08/03/2013 11:31 PM, Joseph FreeTech wrote:
> Oh no! not this list too! Why does everyone on these lists have to try to
> one-up everyone else!
>
> I prefaced my statements by conveying the Asian continent as an extreme
> example. I think you understood what I meant.
>
> Your crowd sourcing idea would not work because we're right back to what I
> stated in regards to "who's opinion is best?"
>
> The automated testing suite would not work as it will undoubtedly yield 
> tons
> of false positives and will give the developer an "out" as he or she will
> undoubtedly claim they ran their app through this suite and all looked 
> fine.
>
> Because I've been here done that, I'm sorry but I'm now walking away from
> this type of one upping. I think most got my point in that simply 
> demanding
> for accessibility is not easy and involves lots of thought and. I just
> wanted to convey a point which I'm sure all others got.
>
> Joseph
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Christopher Chaltain" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund
>
>
> If Apple were to implement something like this, I'd suggest using crowd
> sourcing. I'm not saying it would be trivial, but add another
> feedback/rating for accessibility and let users provide their input. Of
> course, this wouldn't address the issue for the first few people that
> had to buy and try an app before it's been reviewed by someone.
>
> Apple could also invest in an automated accessibility test suite that
> would give a rough indication if an app has met at least some basic
> accessibility. This wouldn't be perfect, and there's still some
> subjectivity, but it would be a starting point. Apple may already have
> such a suite it uses for it's own apps.
>
> It may be true that this idea hasn't been well thought out,, in that an
> implementation hasn't been designed, but I think there are some
> solutions out there that aren't as impossible as you imply. I also don't
> think this is at all like asking for a super highway to be built across
> the Atlantic to connect the US and Asia. I think there's definitely
> something that can be done here, while building a highway betw

Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Christopher Chaltain]

Why do you assume I'm trying to one up you? I just don't agree with you. 
That doesn't mean I'm trying to one up you.


Crowd sourcing and publicly rating applications is fairly common place 
these days. It's not perfect, but if you get enough people on one side 
or the other it becomes pretty evident that an app is either accessible 
or it isn't. Of course, each person's rating is subjective but this will 
be evened out in the aggregate. Are you saying that the ratings in the 
App store or on Amazon are meaningless because each person's assessment 
is subjective? If that's what you're saying then I wouldn't agree. These 
ratings do have some value, although they may not be the be all and the 
end all. They are another data point.


An automated test suite for accessibility wouldn't be perfect but it 
would be a starting point. Again, it's another data point, and it could 
be improved over time. It could also be used in conjunction with other 
criteria, e.g. if you state your app is accessible in the App Store, and 
it isn't, then customers and Apple can demand refunds. There are 
automated test suites out there for accessibility, so this isn't a new 
concept. It is true that they aren't perfect, and you're going to get 
some false positives or some false negatives, but like I said, it's a 
starting point and something to work off of.


I agree that accessibility is hard and needs to be well thought out, but 
I'm not sure I see your alternative. It sounds like you're saying 
accessibility is impossible so we shouldn't even try. I don't agree with 
that at all, and I think discussions like this can help work out a 
solution and some answers.


I'm sorry, but I also thought your analogy was silly. Even if you'd said 
building a highway over the Atlantic between the US and Europe or 
building a highway over the Pacific between the US and Asia, I still 
would have thought it was a silly and pointless analogy. An analogy is 
good when there's actually a relationship between what you're discussing 
and the analogy you're making. In your case, you just picked something 
at random that sounds impossible. Accessibility and assessing 
accessibility is not impossible. It's hard, takes some thought and 
ultimately will be a lot of work, but Apple has a lot of resources and 
has demonstrated a commitment to accessibility, so I don't think it's 
impossible, but it will be if people don't brain storm and discuss 
different possibilities.


On 08/03/2013 11:31 PM, Joseph FreeTech wrote:

Oh no! not this list too! Why does everyone on these lists have to try to
one-up everyone else!

I prefaced my statements by conveying the Asian continent as an extreme
example. I think you understood what I meant.

Your crowd sourcing idea would not work because we're right back to what I
stated in regards to "who's opinion is best?"

The automated testing suite would not work as it will undoubtedly yield tons
of false positives and will give the developer an "out" as he or she will
undoubtedly claim they ran their app through this suite and all looked fine.

Because I've been here done that, I'm sorry but I'm now walking away from
this type of one upping. I think most got my point in that simply demanding
for accessibility is not easy and involves lots of thought and. I just
wanted to convey a point which I'm sure all others got.

Joseph

- Original Message -
From: "Christopher Chaltain" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


If Apple were to implement something like this, I'd suggest using crowd
sourcing. I'm not saying it would be trivial, but add another
feedback/rating for accessibility and let users provide their input. Of
course, this wouldn't address the issue for the first few people that
had to buy and try an app before it's been reviewed by someone.

Apple could also invest in an automated accessibility test suite that
would give a rough indication if an app has met at least some basic
accessibility. This wouldn't be perfect, and there's still some
subjectivity, but it would be a starting point. Apple may already have
such a suite it uses for it's own apps.

It may be true that this idea hasn't been well thought out,, in that an
implementation hasn't been designed, but I think there are some
solutions out there that aren't as impossible as you imply. I also don't
think this is at all like asking for a super highway to be built across
the Atlantic to connect the US and Asia. I think there's definitely
something that can be done here, while building a highway between the US
and Asia over the Atlantic is impossible in many ways, not the least
that Asia doesn't border the Atlantic.

On 08/03/2013 09:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech wrote:

I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple
will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as
there
is just too much subjective criteria at play.
1. Who is going to

Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[David Chittenden]

Reading these messages, I am reminded of computer software throughout the past 
30 years.

When you purchase a program on disk in a store, the policy is, and has been for 
the past 30 years, that if you open the packaging, you cannot return the 
program. I wasted many dollars purchasing software that turned out to be 
inaccessible. Very occasionally, I was able to convince the shop to refund my 
money, but usually I was out of luck.

The real question is why has our computer culture been like this for at least 
the previous 30 years? The answer is, software piracy. In the beginning of 
computer usage, when disks took the place of punch cards, people figured out 
how to exactly duplicate software. So, they would purchase the program disk, 
take it home, open it, copy it, return the disk to the store, say it did not 
meet their needs, get a refund, and return home to use their now free software. 
The more enterprising amongst them would share the software, or even sell the 
software. This is otherwise known as piracy, and it is very big business. Oh, 
and save for a few business enterprise exceptions, most purchased computer 
software cannot be returned, even if it is inaccessible. And, it definitely 
cannot be try-it before you buy-it.

So, what about the App Store? Apple ties your software purchase to your account 
to reduce software piracy. However, any app you purchase immediately and 
permanently exists on your iOS device and in any external back-up medium. So, 
when you get a refund from Apple, you still have access to the app. You will 
not be able to upgrade it without purchasing it again, but the original 
software may well be in your possession. Unless you agree to allow Apple to 
make random spot-checks of your iOS device to confirm that you have, indeed, 
removed any and all incidents of the software, and they can check in several 
months time to continue verifying that you are not secretly running the 
software you haven't paid for, well, that is the other side of the argument. If 
I was an app developer, I would not want to know my apps were being pirated.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 13:45, Aman Singer  wrote:

> Hi, alan.
> You say
>> what happens when a sighted person gets an app and  they think it doesn't 
>> meet their needs.
> 
> With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told the 
> sighted user what the application would do. If the textual description and 
> the screenshots the app store presented gave an accurate description of the 
> app, then the user has nothing to complain of. If the description was 
> inaccurate, then the user should get a refund. THe problem, of course, for 
> the blind user is that the description may or may not be true. The app may 
> say it can do X, and may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a user 
> of VO. For the VO user, the description is simply false unless it says that 
> VO will not work with the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled to 
> an accurate description, one which says whether the app will actually do what 
> it says it will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the product to see 
> if the description is false. Failing even that, the user is entitled to a 
> refund if the description turns out to be nonsense. Apple has chosen not to 
> allow the first or second options, it seems only reasonable, though not fully 
> satisfactory, for them to allow the third.
> Aman
>  dealer of what it 2013-08-03, at 1:08 PM, "Alan Paganelli" 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Hi All,
>>  
>> My concern here is this.  So what happens when a sighted person gets an app 
>> and  they think it doesn't meet their needs.  Do they get a refund?  I'd 
>> guess not.  This sounds to me to much like pulling out the blind card. What 
>> I'm saying here is, if there is a satisfaction guaranteed or your money back 
>> policy in place then that's one thing but just because it doesn't work well 
>> with voice over may not fly.
>> ---
>>  
>> Regards,
>>  
>> Alan
>>  
>> Go Chicago Bears in 2013!
>>  
>> Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!  
>> Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.
>>  
>> Please click on: 
>> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
>> There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
>> the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  The albums in Technics  format formerly on my 
>> website are still available upon request.  Thanks for listening!
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Sieghard Weitzel
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 1:49 AM
>> Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund
>> 
>> Hi Cara,
>>  
>> I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this 
>> they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the hassle. 
>> I must say, howeve

Re: New Aftershokz Bluez

[Lisa belville]

Andy, thanks for this.  I was thinking some audio output would be awesome. 
I purchased my pair in May and didn't get them in June due to them being on 
backorder.  There's no audio output at all, though it's not hard to 
determine what the series of beeps and tones means, still, the more output 
the better with a product like this.


Lisa

I may have had an encounter with the ugly stick, but the whole tree is after 
you!

Lisa Belville
missktlab1...@frontier.com

- Original Message - 
From: "Andy Baracco" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:42 PM
Subject: New Aftershokz Bluez


Yesterday I reported that i had to obtain a replacement set of Aftershokz 
Bluez. Well, i guess they must have recently came out with a new model, 
because these include some spoken output. When you first turn them on, a 
female voice says “Power on’. When turning them on for the first time, the 
voice says “Pairing”. When they connect to the iPhone, the voice says 
"something like “Audio device connected”. When you turn them off, the voice 
says, at least at present, “Battery high, power off."”. It is to be noted 
that even when fully charged, in the iPhone status line, the phone reports 
“Bluetooth battery 88%”. I think that this is perhaps an issue with the way 
the iPhone reports on the bluetooth battery, and not with the Aftershokz.


Andy
I'm not wearing a diaper, so don't try to change me.

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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Joseph FreeTech]

Hi Aman,

Thank you for your polite response--always enjoy this type of interaction.

I believe I made it clear I was referring to an Apple Accessibility policy 
that is inclusive of "All" apps and not just those on AppleVis. (Smile).

The Appleviz website relies on the relatively few who have and enjoy taking 
the time to add comments. Let's say at most they have reviewed 500 apps 
within recent years, well, as you know, there are 500,000+ in the apps 
store.

Again, all of your and other's suggestions sound like  100% common sense 
proposals, but the wheels fall off when you actually implement something 
like this in reality or on a global app store basis. This cost money, money, 
money, and unless pushed into it, there aren't too many private sector 
businesses that will make such accommodations without something in return as 
is the case with Apple and their relationships with governmental public 
sector businesses.

I never used the word impossible to describe the current situation, it was 
introduced into the conversation by another list member Christian something 
or other.

Thanks,

Joseph

 - Original Message - 
From: "Aman Singer" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


Hello, Joseph.
I must respectfully disagree with you. To describe an application's 
accessibility to VO users is so far from impossible that it is being done 
every day on Applevis. You are certainly correct that there are some 
subjective aspects to the evaluation, but if you look at the descriptions of 
apps on Applevis, there is not really a significant problem in determining 
what functions  do and don't work in an application. The problem with 
Applevis is not that the information is bad but that there isn't enough of 
it, too few apps are getting the treatment. If Apple wished to do this sort 
of thing, there would be no difficulty in contracting it out to a particular 
group of people, perhaps some of the people here. Remember that what is 
asked for is a description, rather than an accessibility rating or, if such 
a rating is needed, it should be secondary to the description.  Also 
remember that, in this case as with many others, perfection shouldn't be 
demanded and probably can't be attained in any case. The lack of perfection 
is not something that should stop this sort of thing though, knowing Apple 
and its policies, it well may. Aside from all that, though, as I said 
before, a policy of refunds is probably the easiest way to go and is almost 
certainly the cheapest. It is not optimal, but it is workable and the 
infrastructure already exists for it.
Aman


On 2013-08-03, at 10:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech  
wrote:

> I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple
> will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as 
> there
> is just too much subjective criteria at play.
> 1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app 
> is
> accessible?
>
> 2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%?
> 90? 100%?
>
> 3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is 
> accessible,
> then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the
> blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to
> convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being
> accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take
> countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, 
> while
> the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in
> time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it
> go. :)
>
> 4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to
> test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to
> train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what
> is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time,
> effort, and tons of costs.
>
> 5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to
> define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve
> it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and 
> senate
> members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable
> accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get 
> anywhere
> near this issue unless forced to do so.
>
> 6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their 
> Windows
> store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible 
> even
> though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember,
> accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again,
> we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it 
> in
> the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts 
> or
> rejects

Re: New Aftershokz Bluez

[Lisa belville]

They go in front of your ears as others have said.  They aren't round or 
oval like conventional over the ear headphones or ear buds, either.  There's 
at least one member on the Viphone list who wears hearing aids and says she 
can hear music better with the Aftershokz than she has in years because of 
how they work.


I may have had an encounter with the ugly stick, but the whole tree is after 
you!

Lisa Belville
missktlab1...@frontier.com

- Original Message - 
From: "Pinky" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: New Aftershokz Bluez


Hi List,
I wear hearing aids and I am wondering do the Aftershock headset go over 
your ears or do they go just in front of your ears? I have to wear headphone 
over my hearing aids to make them work with them. Thanks for the info.


 - Original Message - 
 From: Andy Baracco

 To: viphone@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:42 PM
 Subject: New Aftershokz Bluez


 Yesterday I reported that i had to obtain a replacement set of Aftershokz 
Bluez. Well, i guess they must have recently came out with a new model, 
because these include some spoken output. When you first turn them on, a 
female voice says “Power on’. When turning them on for the first time, the 
voice says “Pairing”. When they connect to the iPhone, the voice says 
"something like “Audio device connected”. When you turn them off, the voice 
says, at least at present, “Battery high, power off."”. It is to be noted 
that even when fully charged, in the iPhone status line, the phone reports 
“Bluetooth battery 88%”. I think that this is perhaps an issue with the way 
the iPhone reports on the bluetooth battery, and not with the Aftershokz.


 Andy
 I'm not wearing a diaper, so don't try to change me.

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A somewhat positive update about my app refunds

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hello again Listers,

 

OK, so Alishia from iTunes Store support is talking to me again *smile*.
Anyhow, I had written another new message (not a reply) explaining exactly
what happened and Alishia replied shortly after stating that 2 apps had been
credited to my account on July 22 which would have been the same day she
told me the credit should happen within 48 hours. The problem is that I have
not seen the credit on my account. I was told that I might have to sign out
of my account and back in for this to show up and I did this several times
that week. Anyhow, I told her about this and she promised to investigate
what is going on, but it appears my initial complaint may have been
unfounded since the refund was processed promptly and it may all be some
technical problem, who knows, maybe she accidently refunded it to somebody
elses Apple Id, but I am sure whatever it is it will soon come out.

 

 

Regards,

Sieghard

 

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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Aman Singer]

Hi, Arnold.
Just a small point, if I may. Keep in mind that abuse of this system has far 
fewer and weaker consequences than abuse of other systems. If a person asks for 
a refund, the only thing that he can use is his own copy of the app. If and 
when that copy is lost, whether by restore/crash/upgrade/etc, the program is 
not on the account and cannot be downloaded again. Google, for example, says 
that if you have received a refund as to an app, and then purchase it again, 
that second sale is final. One of the very few advantages of centralizing app 
distribution and enforcing that centralization is that refunds can be processed 
with fewer consequences for developers. It should also be noted that anyone who 
wants a cracked application, that is, anyone who doesn't want to pay the money 
for an app generally has multiple ways of getting that app for free which don't 
involve interactions and other work to save some amount which is usually under 
$10.
Aman


On 2013-08-03, at 2:20 PM, "Arnold Schmidt"  wrote:

> Oh, I am not so worried about what the blindness community would do.  But you 
> know that it wouldn't take long for some blog, or whatever, to pick up on the 
> fact that, hey, if you don't like an app, tell them that you are blind, use 
> VoiceOver, and for the life of you, you just can't figure out how to get this 
> app to work with VoiceOver.  So, you know, you need a refund.  I would rather 
> them just institute a refund period, maybe 24 hours, to ask for a refund.  
> That would make Apple look as if they really care about their customers, and 
> benefit everybody, including the VoiceOver users. Unfortunately, to cut down 
> on the abuse, they might have to set a maximum number of refunds for a given 
> time period, but I could live with that. 
>  
> Arnold Schmidt  
> - Original Message -
> From: Cara Quinn
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 4:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunesStore support regarding app refund
> 
> Hello Arnold,
> 
> thanks so much for your note.
> 
> I'm personally not willing to give into the worry of the least common 
> denominator principle. If anything, what we've seen so far in the case of 
> this community when it comes to asking for refunds for apps, is that people 
> have been more than upstanding, patient and forgiving. -to a fault if I may 
> be so bold. If I may also say so, this is not always the same in other 
> circles of blind / visually impaired users of technology I've encountered, so 
> it honestly warms my heart to say what I have just said about people being 
> upstanding here. :)
> 
> Because of this, I still believe it is reasonable to ask for a policy for 
> refunds if we are not given the opportunity to know ahead of time whether an 
> app is usable with VO.
> 
> If we can get a descriptive blurb, then a refund would simply depend on what 
> such a blurb says. I.E. if an app's main advertised features were not 
> accessible with VoiceOver and a customer chose to purchase said app anyway, 
> they would not be eligible for a refund. Simple as that… :)
> 
> Regardless of the feelings on either side of this issue, I feel this does 
> need to be brought up in a real and meaningful way. It's best we don't 
> inadvertently sweep this one under the rug because we may not have a good 
> answer for this yet. Better for this to be discussed and refined at length if 
> necessary.
> 
> Thanks so much for your note!
> 
> Smiles,
> 
> Cara :)
> On Aug 3, 2013, at 1:02 AM, Arnold Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> As I state in another message, I would be much more willing to support a 
> general refund policy, such as Google has, or at least use to have, rather 
> than an it won't work with VoiceOver policy.  That is just too open to abuse. 
>   Besides, a general refund policy would be an even better way to let 
> developers know if people didn't like their app, a bunch of them all 
> requested refunds.   It might even improve accessibility. 
>  
> Arnold Schmidt
> - Original Message -
> From: Cara Quinn
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 2:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund
> 
> Sieghard and All,
> 
> Let me encourage you and actually everyone on this list to write Apple  
> Accessibility to request that there be reasonable accommodation in place for 
> VoiceOver users to receive app refunds in cases like Sieghard's. I'd also 
> suggest that Sieghard's note be attached to your own.
> 
> I believe this issue needs to be brought into the forefront in a positive and 
> decisive way. We are almost 2000 people on this list and this is a very good 
> opportunity to make this point heard.
> 
> This discussion has come up before of being alerted of VO accessibility ahead 
> of time in the App Store and though we've not come to a set conclusion on the 
> best way to do this, having some indication that an app has been found to be 
> acce

Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Aman Singer]

Hello, Joseph.
I must respectfully disagree with you. To describe an application's 
accessibility to VO users is so far from impossible that it is being done every 
day on Applevis. You are certainly correct that there are some subjective 
aspects to the evaluation, but if you look at the descriptions of apps on 
Applevis, there is not really a significant problem in determining what 
functions  do and don't work in an application. The problem with Applevis is 
not that the information is bad but that there isn't enough of it, too few apps 
are getting the treatment. If Apple wished to do this sort of thing, there 
would be no difficulty in contracting it out to a particular group of people, 
perhaps some of the people here. Remember that what is asked for is a 
description, rather than an accessibility rating or, if such a rating is 
needed, it should be secondary to the description.  Also remember that, in this 
case as with many others, perfection shouldn't be demanded and probably can't 
be attained in any case. The lack of perfection is not something that should 
stop this sort of thing though, knowing Apple and its policies, it well may. 
Aside from all that, though, as I said before, a policy of refunds is probably 
the easiest way to go and is almost certainly the cheapest. It is not optimal, 
but it is workable and the infrastructure already exists for it. 
Aman


On 2013-08-03, at 10:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech  wrote:

> I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple 
> will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as there 
> is just too much subjective criteria at play.
> 1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app is 
> accessible?
> 
> 2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%? 
> 90? 100%?
> 
> 3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is accessible, 
> then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the 
> blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to 
> convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being 
> accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take 
> countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, while 
> the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in 
> time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it 
> go. :)
> 
> 4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to 
> test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to 
> train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what 
> is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time, 
> effort, and tons of costs.
> 
> 5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to 
> define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve 
> it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and senate 
> members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable 
> accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get anywhere 
> near this issue unless forced to do so.
> 
> 6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their Windows 
> store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible even 
> though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember, 
> accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again, 
> we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it in 
> the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts or 
> rejects submitted apps. If they do it in-house, this means training either 
> all of their employs or this means training a select group; if so, this will 
> have to be quite a large group.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should start somewhere, but it will be 
> difficult to actually develop such a system rather than many of us making 
> demands that have not been really thought out. :) I guess its like asking, 
> why not just build a super highway across the Atlantic from the US to Asia 
> since there is tons of area to build? Extreme example? Yes, but I meant it 
> to be so to bring home my points regarding how to define, describe, and 
> implement accessibility. Heck, there are still some debating how one 
> accurately describes a screen reader.
> 
> Guys, I want the same thing you do, but if it is going to be done, it might 
> as well be done right and done right the first time, so let's not make hasty 
> demands as we might end up getting what we want--as defined by a single 
> individual at Apple.
> 
> Just some spur of the moment thoughts.
> 
> Joseph
> 

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Re: New Aftershokz Bluez

[Mich]

they go infrunt of your ears since they use boan conduction tecnolligey. hth. 
from Mich.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Pinky 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 11:45 PM
  Subject: Re: New Aftershokz Bluez


  Hi List,
  I wear hearing aids and I am wondering do the Aftershock headset go over your 
ears or do they go just in front of your ears? I have to wear headphone over my 
hearing aids to make them work with them. Thanks for the info.

- Original Message - 
From: Andy Baracco 
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:42 PM
Subject: New Aftershokz Bluez


Yesterday I reported that i had to obtain a replacement set of Aftershokz 
Bluez. Well, i guess they must have recently came out with a new model, because 
these include some spoken output. When you first turn them on, a female voice 
says “Power on’. When turning them on for the first time, the voice says 
“Pairing”. When they connect to the iPhone, the voice says "something like 
“Audio device connected”. When you turn them off, the voice says, at least at 
present, “Battery high, power off."”. It is to be noted that even when fully 
charged, in the iPhone status line, the phone reports “Bluetooth battery 88%”. 
I think that this is perhaps an issue with the way the iPhone reports on the 
bluetooth battery, and not with the Aftershokz.

Andy
I'm not wearing a diaper, so don't try to change me.

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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Joseph FreeTech]

Oh no! not this list too! Why does everyone on these lists have to try to 
one-up everyone else!

I prefaced my statements by conveying the Asian continent as an extreme 
example. I think you understood what I meant.

Your crowd sourcing idea would not work because we're right back to what I 
stated in regards to "who's opinion is best?"

The automated testing suite would not work as it will undoubtedly yield tons 
of false positives and will give the developer an "out" as he or she will 
undoubtedly claim they ran their app through this suite and all looked fine.

Because I've been here done that, I'm sorry but I'm now walking away from 
this type of one upping. I think most got my point in that simply demanding 
for accessibility is not easy and involves lots of thought and. I just 
wanted to convey a point which I'm sure all others got.

Joseph

- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher Chaltain" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


If Apple were to implement something like this, I'd suggest using crowd
sourcing. I'm not saying it would be trivial, but add another
feedback/rating for accessibility and let users provide their input. Of
course, this wouldn't address the issue for the first few people that
had to buy and try an app before it's been reviewed by someone.

Apple could also invest in an automated accessibility test suite that
would give a rough indication if an app has met at least some basic
accessibility. This wouldn't be perfect, and there's still some
subjectivity, but it would be a starting point. Apple may already have
such a suite it uses for it's own apps.

It may be true that this idea hasn't been well thought out,, in that an
implementation hasn't been designed, but I think there are some
solutions out there that aren't as impossible as you imply. I also don't
think this is at all like asking for a super highway to be built across
the Atlantic to connect the US and Asia. I think there's definitely
something that can be done here, while building a highway between the US
and Asia over the Atlantic is impossible in many ways, not the least
that Asia doesn't border the Atlantic.

On 08/03/2013 09:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech wrote:
> I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple
> will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as 
> there
> is just too much subjective criteria at play.
> 1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app 
> is
> accessible?
>
> 2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%?
> 90? 100%?
>
> 3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is 
> accessible,
> then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the
> blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to
> convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being
> accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take
> countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, 
> while
> the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in
> time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it
> go. :)
>
> 4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to
> test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to
> train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what
> is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time,
> effort, and tons of costs.
>
> 5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to
> define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve
> it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and 
> senate
> members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable
> accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get 
> anywhere
> near this issue unless forced to do so.
>
> 6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their 
> Windows
> store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible 
> even
> though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember,
> accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again,
> we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it 
> in
> the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts 
> or
> rejects submitted apps. If they do it in-house, this means training either
> all of their employs or this means training a select group; if so, this 
> will
> have to be quite a large group.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should start somewhere, but it will be
> difficult to actually develop such a system rather than many of us making
> demands that have not been really thought out. :) I guess its like asking,
> why not just build a super highway across the At

Re: New Aftershokz Bluez

[Andy Baracco]

In front of your ears.
Andy

From: Pinky 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:45 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: New Aftershokz Bluez
Hi List,
I wear hearing aids and I am wondering do the Aftershock headset go over your 
ears or do they go just in front of your ears? I have to wear headphone over my 
hearing aids to make them work with them. Thanks for the info.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Andy Baracco 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:42 PM
  Subject: New Aftershokz Bluez

  Yesterday I reported that i had to obtain a replacement set of Aftershokz 
Bluez. Well, i guess they must have recently came out with a new model, because 
these include some spoken output. When you first turn them on, a female voice 
says “Power on’. When turning them on for the first time, the voice says 
“Pairing”. When they connect to the iPhone, the voice says "something like 
“Audio device connected”. When you turn them off, the voice says, at least at 
present, “Battery high, power off."”. It is to be noted that even when fully 
charged, in the iPhone status line, the phone reports “Bluetooth battery 88%”. 
I think that this is perhaps an issue with the way the iPhone reports on the 
bluetooth battery, and not with the Aftershokz.

  Andy
  I'm not wearing a diaper, so don't try to change me.
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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Christopher Chaltain]

If Apple were to implement something like this, I'd suggest using crowd 
sourcing. I'm not saying it would be trivial, but add another 
feedback/rating for accessibility and let users provide their input. Of 
course, this wouldn't address the issue for the first few people that 
had to buy and try an app before it's been reviewed by someone.


Apple could also invest in an automated accessibility test suite that 
would give a rough indication if an app has met at least some basic 
accessibility. This wouldn't be perfect, and there's still some 
subjectivity, but it would be a starting point. Apple may already have 
such a suite it uses for it's own apps.


It may be true that this idea hasn't been well thought out,, in that an 
implementation hasn't been designed, but I think there are some 
solutions out there that aren't as impossible as you imply. I also don't 
think this is at all like asking for a super highway to be built across 
the Atlantic to connect the US and Asia. I think there's definitely 
something that can be done here, while building a highway between the US 
and Asia over the Atlantic is impossible in many ways, not the least 
that Asia doesn't border the Atlantic.


On 08/03/2013 09:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech wrote:

I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple
will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as there
is just too much subjective criteria at play.
1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app is
accessible?

2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%?
90? 100%?

3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is accessible,
then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the
blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to
convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being
accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take
countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, while
the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in
time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it
go. :)

4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to
test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to
train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what
is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time,
effort, and tons of costs.

5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to
define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve
it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and senate
members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable
accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get anywhere
near this issue unless forced to do so.

6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their Windows
store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible even
though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember,
accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again,
we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it in
the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts or
rejects submitted apps. If they do it in-house, this means training either
all of their employs or this means training a select group; if so, this will
have to be quite a large group.

Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should start somewhere, but it will be
difficult to actually develop such a system rather than many of us making
demands that have not been really thought out. :) I guess its like asking,
why not just build a super highway across the Atlantic from the US to Asia
since there is tons of area to build? Extreme example? Yes, but I meant it
to be so to bring home my points regarding how to define, describe, and
implement accessibility. Heck, there are still some debating how one
accurately describes a screen reader.

Guys, I want the same thing you do, but if it is going to be done, it might
as well be done right and done right the first time, so let's not make hasty
demands as we might end up getting what we want--as defined by a single
individual at Apple.

Just some spur of the moment thoughts.

Joseph

- Original Message -
From: "Aman Singer" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


Hi, alan.
You say

what happens when a sighted person gets an app and  they think it doesn't
meet their needs.


With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told the
sighted user what the application would do. If the textual description and
the screenshots the app store presented gave an accurate description of the
app, then the user has nothing to complain of. If the de

Re: New Aftershokz Bluez

[Pinky]

Hi List,
I wear hearing aids and I am wondering do the Aftershock headset go over your 
ears or do they go just in front of your ears? I have to wear headphone over my 
hearing aids to make them work with them. Thanks for the info.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Andy Baracco 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:42 PM
  Subject: New Aftershokz Bluez


  Yesterday I reported that i had to obtain a replacement set of Aftershokz 
Bluez. Well, i guess they must have recently came out with a new model, because 
these include some spoken output. When you first turn them on, a female voice 
says “Power on’. When turning them on for the first time, the voice says 
“Pairing”. When they connect to the iPhone, the voice says "something like 
“Audio device connected”. When you turn them off, the voice says, at least at 
present, “Battery high, power off."”. It is to be noted that even when fully 
charged, in the iPhone status line, the phone reports “Bluetooth battery 88%”. 
I think that this is perhaps an issue with the way the iPhone reports on the 
bluetooth battery, and not with the Aftershokz.

  Andy
  I'm not wearing a diaper, so don't try to change me.

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Re: code for pairing a Braille display

[Andy Baracco]

It should be in the BD docs, but when all else fails, either  or 1234 
usually work.

Andy

From: Patti Johnson 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 3:39 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: code for pairing a Braille display
Does any one know what the code  for pairing a Hims Braille display with the 
Iphone is?
I know what it is for the Focus, but not for Hims displays.
Thanks for any help you can give me,
Patti




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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Andy Baracco]

i would support a time based refund policy. I do worry about people just buying 
an app, not liking it, and demanding a refund based on inaccessibility. But 
giving someone a short period of time to try it out seems fair.

Andy

From: Lois Butterfield 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 2:05 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund
Apple might have a refund policy based on time.  I purchased a version of 
Navigon that I realized afterward wasn’t what I wanted.  Within 3 minutes, I 
wrote and requested a refund because I had mistakenly purchased it.  I received 
an immediate response that said I would receive a refund, which I in fact did 
get soon after.  I don’t think they cared about the reason.  

 

Obviously, this is not the same thing, but I wonder if someone tried out the 
app within the first 5 minutes of purchase, if a refund would be forthcoming 
from Apple.

 

I know that I download things, and then don’t get to try them out for quite a 
while.  If you tried it right away, and got this negative reaction, that’s 
another story entirely.

 

I think that writing to Apple about it is a great idea, but I think that the 
refund process would be easier all around if it happened within 15 minutes of 
purchase, not days or weeks afterward.

 

Lois

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 4:50 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

 

Hi Cara,

 

I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this they 
should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the hassle. I must 
say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return policy Google apparently 
offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do something like that is not just 
a completely different ball game, it’s a different sport!

 

If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could request 
proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could limit refunds 
to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given their computers they 
could easily track this on somebody’s Apple Id.

 

If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as an 
example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, i.e. 
order number and all that, as well as the response I received.

It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand the 
situation, but on another level she apparently didn’t. She summarized my 
request by saying I “inadvertently “ purchased some apps which of course is not 
at all the case and not what I said.

Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really didn’t 
get it despite the fact that she said it was an “appropriate exception” and 
they would refund me the money which still has not happened:

 

From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM
To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com'
Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps

 

Hello,

 

My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for tracking 
packages in order to find out which one offered the best features. I tried a 
couple more, but they had free Lite versions which allowed me to try them 
before buying the full version.

 

I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and 
unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps have 
accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. I wrote to 
the developers, but have not received any reply as to whether they might 
consider making improvements so the apps would work with Voiceover. I used 
iTunes credit to pay for the paid apps and was wondering if it was possible to 
receive a refund since I have already deleted the apps from my phone.

 

-Original Message-
From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:50 PM
To: siegh...@hotmail.ca
Subject: Re: Voiceover inaccessible apps; Follow-up: 280679929

 

Dear Sieghard,

 

Greetings from iTunes Store Customer Support. My name is Alishia and I am happy 
to assist you today.

 

I understand that you inadvertently purchased some apps from the App Store and 
you would like to receive a refund for the purchase. I know how important it is 
to have the issue resolved. I assure you of assistance.

 

Sieghard, after reviewing the circumstances of your case, we determined that 
issuing you a refund for the purchase of "Apps" is an appropriate exception to 
the iTunes Store Terms and Conditions, which state that all sales are final. 

 

You will see 6.70 CAD added to your store credit balance within 48 hours. You 
may need to sign out of the iTunes Store and then sign back in before you see 
the credit in your account. 

 

The iTunes Store provides a warning message that a

New Aftershokz Bluez

[Andy Baracco]

Yesterday I reported that i had to obtain a replacement set of Aftershokz 
Bluez. Well, i guess they must have recently came out with a new model, because 
these include some spoken output. When you first turn them on, a female voice 
says “Power on’. When turning them on for the first time, the voice says 
“Pairing”. When they connect to the iPhone, the voice says "something like 
“Audio device connected”. When you turn them off, the voice says, at least at 
present, “Battery high, power off."”. It is to be noted that even when fully 
charged, in the iPhone status line, the phone reports “Bluetooth battery 88%”. 
I think that this is perhaps an issue with the way the iPhone reports on the 
bluetooth battery, and not with the Aftershokz.

Andy
I'm not wearing a diaper, so don't try to change me.

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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Joseph FreeTech]

I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple 
will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as there 
is just too much subjective criteria at play.
1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app is 
accessible?

2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%? 
90? 100%?

3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is accessible, 
then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the 
blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to 
convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being 
accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take 
countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, while 
the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in 
time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it 
go. :)

4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to 
test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to 
train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what 
is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time, 
effort, and tons of costs.

5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to 
define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve 
it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and senate 
members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable 
accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get anywhere 
near this issue unless forced to do so.

6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their Windows 
store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible even 
though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember, 
accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again, 
we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it in 
the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts or 
rejects submitted apps. If they do it in-house, this means training either 
all of their employs or this means training a select group; if so, this will 
have to be quite a large group.

Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should start somewhere, but it will be 
difficult to actually develop such a system rather than many of us making 
demands that have not been really thought out. :) I guess its like asking, 
why not just build a super highway across the Atlantic from the US to Asia 
since there is tons of area to build? Extreme example? Yes, but I meant it 
to be so to bring home my points regarding how to define, describe, and 
implement accessibility. Heck, there are still some debating how one 
accurately describes a screen reader.

Guys, I want the same thing you do, but if it is going to be done, it might 
as well be done right and done right the first time, so let's not make hasty 
demands as we might end up getting what we want--as defined by a single 
individual at Apple.

Just some spur of the moment thoughts.

Joseph

- Original Message - 
From: "Aman Singer" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


Hi, alan.
You say
> what happens when a sighted person gets an app and  they think it doesn't 
> meet their needs.

With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told the 
sighted user what the application would do. If the textual description and 
the screenshots the app store presented gave an accurate description of the 
app, then the user has nothing to complain of. If the description was 
inaccurate, then the user should get a refund. THe problem, of course, for 
the blind user is that the description may or may not be true. The app may 
say it can do X, and may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a user 
of VO. For the VO user, the description is simply false unless it says that 
VO will not work with the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled 
to an accurate description, one which says whether the app will actually do 
what it says it will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the product 
to see if the description is false. Failing even that, the user is entitled 
to a refund if the description turns out to be nonsense. Apple has chosen 
not to allow the first or second options, it seems only reasonable, though 
not fully satisfactory, for them to allow the third.
Aman
 dealer of what it 2013-08-03, at 1:08 PM, "Alan Paganelli" 
 wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My concern here is this.  So what happens when a sighted person gets an 
> app and  they think it doesn't meet their needs.  Do they get a refund? 
> I'd guess not.  This sounds to me to much like pulling out the blind card. 
> What I'm saying here is, if there is a satisfaction guara

Re: hourly news app question

[Chris Chaffin]

I have this app, and I love it.
Yes, there are several sources you can choose from.  To select what sources 
you want to hear for your news, you must go to the settings.

You will find the settings button near the bottom right hand corner.
On the settings screen, right flick until you get to the edit sources 
button.  Double tap on this button, this is where you will select the 
sources you want to get news from.


There is also a nice podcast on applevis at:
http://www.applevis.com/sites/default/files/podcasts/AppleVisPodcast439.mp3

HTH,


Chris Chaffin

Chat with me on Voxer at: cchaf...@twcny.rr.com
Follow me on twitter at: Chris_Chaffin68
Or on FaceBook at: cchaf...@twcny.rr.com


-Original Message- 
From: Penny Golden

Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 12:59 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: hourly news app question

I see a free thing when I go to hourly news. it gives you NPR.  I
also see and purchased the one for 99 cents which is called hourly news.
I saw where someone said that it would give you several news sources,
but I can find only npr and BBC.  but I'd like others.
If someone knows how to access others, could you tell me?
Thanks. and sorry to ask a dumb question, if it is one.

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Re: Can't send to this group without sight

[Christopher Chaltain]

I had another thought on this issue. I too use my native email client to 
handle list messages, but I can definitely think of some instances where 
someone may not want to do this. Someone may be on no mail or digest 
mode and want to go to the web to reply to a specific message. Also, if 
I'm on the web searching for older messages, and I find one I want to 
reply to, then again I'd like to be able to do this from the web site 
itself, since it may no longer be in my trash folder.


BTW, I agree the problem should be reported to Google.

On 08/03/2013 07:07 PM, Ricardo Walker wrote:

Hi,

I would guess this would probably be a request for google rather than Apple 
then.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Arianna  wrote:


I can agree with that. It's not as if it would be very hard to make the 
interface accessible.


Thanks,
Ari

On Aug 3, 2013, at 11:37 AM, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:


Of course Sieghard and Ari are right, but this still doesn't mean the web 
interface to Google Groups shouldn't be accessible with Safari and VoiceOver.

On 08/03/2013 02:09 AM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote:

Hi Kevin,

I agree with Ariana, reading this group and participating by email is a much
nicer, faster and less frustrating experience. I prefer to do this on a
computer, since I do write a fair amount on here and that is of course still
much faster pon my computer than even with a Bluetooth keyboard on the
iPhone.

I don't want to say that you have to use email, but it's so easy nowadays to
set up a gmail or Outlook.com account which you can use strictly for Viphone
and maybe other groups you like to participate in. This way the mail goes
into a separate Inbox and doesn't interfere at all with your normal mail.
I used to subscribe to digest messages, but I have since discovered that
subscribing to individual messages gives me more control and is actually
faster. I have conversation view turned on so when I arrow through the list
of messages I can simply delete those topics I am not interested in, I can
open messages I think I want to check out and if it's something I want to
reply to I just have to do a Control+R, type my message and press
Control+Enter to send it. Writing a new message is just as easy since as
soon as I type the first 2 or 3 letters of "Viphone" when I am in the To
field, the list address auto completes.

If you don't have time to read you can just do a Control+A in whatever email
client you are using, Outlook is my choice, and press delete.


Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Arianna
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:02 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can't send to this group without sight

Just out of curiosity, why not use the Mail app on the iPhone? Just a
thought. I do, and I love it.


Thanks,
Ari

On Aug 2, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Kevin Gibbs  wrote:


Guys, I'm not talking about using the Mail app. I'm talking about posting

to this group from the web.  When I read through stuff on the web and wish
to respond, or I decide to post something fresh while reading this board on
the web, I can't get VO to read the compose or Reply buttons while viewing
this, or any other Google Group in Safari on the iPhone. Let's see if that
clarifies things.

Thanks,
KEVIN

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Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Christopher Chaltain]

You also need to go into Settings -> General -> Accessibility -> 
VoiceOver and make sure hints is turned on. Remember too that you have 
to wait a beat or two to hear the preview.


I get the preview read whether I move forwards or backwards in my in 
box. I also get a preview read if I have multiple messages in the thread.


I don't hear a preview if I delete a message though and the current item 
moves to the next message.


On 08/03/2013 08:16 PM, Donna wrote:

Hi Nimit

Being it sounds as though you have checked your mail preview settings, my only 
other suggestion would be for you to try turning your phone off and back on to 
reset the phone. I have my mail set to read 5 preview lines. If there are more 
than 1 thread in a message voiceover will not read any preview lines.

Donna


Hello all,
You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
the email before you actually open to view it?  For example,
Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
trial
and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app in 
order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it stopped 
reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By that, I mean, 
from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  It stopped reading 
that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and callendar and preview and 
it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me the preview instead of me 
having to open a message and decide whether I want to delete it or what not.  
What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest software version.  Thank you for 
your assistance.

Sent from my iPad

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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Aman Singer]

Hi, alan.
You say
> what happens when a sighted person gets an app and  they think it doesn't 
> meet their needs.

With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told the 
sighted user what the application would do. If the textual description and the 
screenshots the app store presented gave an accurate description of the app, 
then the user has nothing to complain of. If the description was inaccurate, 
then the user should get a refund. THe problem, of course, for the blind user 
is that the description may or may not be true. The app may say it can do X, 
and may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a user of VO. For the VO 
user, the description is simply false unless it says that VO will not work with 
the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled to an accurate 
description, one which says whether the app will actually do what it says it 
will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the product to see if the 
description is false. Failing even that, the user is entitled to a refund if 
the description turns out to be nonsense. Apple has chosen not to allow the 
first or second options, it seems only reasonable, though not fully 
satisfactory, for them to allow the third.
Aman
 dealer of what it 2013-08-03, at 1:08 PM, "Alan Paganelli" 
 wrote:

> Hi All,
>  
> My concern here is this.  So what happens when a sighted person gets an app 
> and  they think it doesn't meet their needs.  Do they get a refund?  I'd 
> guess not.  This sounds to me to much like pulling out the blind card. What 
> I'm saying here is, if there is a satisfaction guaranteed or your money back 
> policy in place then that's one thing but just because it doesn't work well 
> with voice over may not fly.
> ---
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Alan
>  
> Go Chicago Bears in 2013!
>  
> Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!  
> Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.
>  
> Please click on: 
> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
> There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
> the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  The albums in Technics  format formerly on my 
> website are still available upon request.  Thanks for listening!
> - Original Message -
> From: Sieghard Weitzel
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 1:49 AM
> Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunesStore support regarding app refund
> 
> Hi Cara,
>  
> I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this 
> they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the hassle. I 
> must say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return policy Google 
> apparently offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do something like 
> that is not just a completely different ball game, it’s a different sport!
>  
> If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could request 
> proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could limit refunds 
> to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given their computers they 
> could easily track this on somebody’s Apple Id.
>  
> If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as an 
> example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, i.e. 
> order number and all that, as well as the response I received.
> It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand the 
> situation, but on another level she apparently didn’t. She summarized my 
> request by saying I “inadvertently “ purchased some apps which of course is 
> not at all the case and not what I said.
> Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really 
> didn’t get it despite the fact that she said it was an “appropriate 
> exception” and they would refund me the money which still has not happened:
>  
> From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] 
> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM
> To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com'
> Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps
>  
> Hello,
>  
> My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for tracking 
> packages in order to find out which one offered the best features. I tried a 
> couple more, but they had free Lite versions which allowed me to try them 
> before buying the full version.
>  
> I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and 
> unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps have 
> accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. I wrote 
> to the developers, but have not received any reply as to whether they might 
> consider making improvements so the apps would work with Voiceover. I used 
> iTunes credit to pay for the paid apps and was wondering if it was possible 
> to receive a refund since I have already deleted the apps from my phone.
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple

Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Donna]

Hi Nimit

Being it sounds as though you have checked your mail preview settings, my only 
other suggestion would be for you to try turning your phone off and back on to 
reset the phone. I have my mail set to read 5 preview lines. If there are more 
than 1 thread in a message voiceover will not read any preview lines.  

Donna

> Hello all, 
> You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
> app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
> the email before you actually open to view it?  For example, 
> Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
> trial
> and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
> and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app in 
> order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it 
> stopped reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By 
> that, I mean, from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  It 
> stopped reading that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and callendar 
> and preview and it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me the preview 
> instead of me having to open a message and decide whether I want to delete it 
> or what not.  What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest software version. 
>  Thank you for your assistance. 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
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Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Rob]

Hi,
On my iPhone 4S, I have noticed that if I start from the bottom and 
swipe left to read the previous email, VO will read the preview. But 
starting from the top and swiping right through the emails will not read 
the preview.


Thanks,
Rob
You can leave me a voice mail or fax at
206-426-3505
"God is good all the time, & All the time God is good"

On 8/3/2013 6:51 PM, Nimit Gmail wrote:

Hello all,
You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
the email before you actually open to view it?  For example,
Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
trial
and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app in 
order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it stopped 
reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By that, I mean, 
from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  It stopped reading 
that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and callendar and preview and 
it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me the preview instead of me 
having to open a message and decide whether I want to delete it or what not.  
What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest software version.  Thank you for 
your assistance.

Sent from my iPad



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Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Larry Smith]

I have the iPhone 5. I do get the first 5 lines of the email read 
automatically. If you go to settings, mail, contacts, calendars, and swipe 
down, you will find an option that says preview X lines button. Five lines is 
the maximum.
On Aug 3, 2013, at 8:00 PM, Ricardo Walker  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Since the first version of the iPhone came out in 2009 that supported 
> Voiceover, I don’t remember Voiceover ever reading the preview in mail.  Just 
> sender subject and date/time.  I remember actually writing Apple 
> accessibility a long time ago asking for this feature. 
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
> On Aug 3, 2013, at 7:51 PM, Nimit Gmail  wrote:
> 
>> Hello all, 
>> You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
>> app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
>> the email before you actually open to view it?  For example, 
>> Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
>> trial
>> and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
>> and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app 
>> in order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it 
>> stopped reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By 
>> that, I mean, from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  
>> It stopped reading that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and 
>> callendar and preview and it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me 
>> the preview instead of me having to open a message and decide whether I want 
>> to delete it or what not.  What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest 
>> software version.  Thank you for your assistance. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
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Re: Can't send to this group without sight

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

I would guess this would probably be a request for google rather than Apple 
then.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Arianna  wrote:

> I can agree with that. It's not as if it would be very hard to make the 
> interface accessible.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Ari
> 
> On Aug 3, 2013, at 11:37 AM, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
> 
>> Of course Sieghard and Ari are right, but this still doesn't mean the web 
>> interface to Google Groups shouldn't be accessible with Safari and VoiceOver.
>> 
>> On 08/03/2013 02:09 AM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote:
>>> Hi Kevin,
>>> 
>>> I agree with Ariana, reading this group and participating by email is a much
>>> nicer, faster and less frustrating experience. I prefer to do this on a
>>> computer, since I do write a fair amount on here and that is of course still
>>> much faster pon my computer than even with a Bluetooth keyboard on the
>>> iPhone.
>>> 
>>> I don't want to say that you have to use email, but it's so easy nowadays to
>>> set up a gmail or Outlook.com account which you can use strictly for Viphone
>>> and maybe other groups you like to participate in. This way the mail goes
>>> into a separate Inbox and doesn't interfere at all with your normal mail.
>>> I used to subscribe to digest messages, but I have since discovered that
>>> subscribing to individual messages gives me more control and is actually
>>> faster. I have conversation view turned on so when I arrow through the list
>>> of messages I can simply delete those topics I am not interested in, I can
>>> open messages I think I want to check out and if it's something I want to
>>> reply to I just have to do a Control+R, type my message and press
>>> Control+Enter to send it. Writing a new message is just as easy since as
>>> soon as I type the first 2 or 3 letters of "Viphone" when I am in the To
>>> field, the list address auto completes.
>>> 
>>> If you don't have time to read you can just do a Control+A in whatever email
>>> client you are using, Outlook is my choice, and press delete.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Sieghard
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
>>> Of Arianna
>>> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:02 PM
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Can't send to this group without sight
>>> 
>>> Just out of curiosity, why not use the Mail app on the iPhone? Just a
>>> thought. I do, and I love it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ari
>>> 
>>> On Aug 2, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Kevin Gibbs  wrote:
>>> 
 Guys, I'm not talking about using the Mail app. I'm talking about posting
>>> to this group from the web.  When I read through stuff on the web and wish
>>> to respond, or I decide to post something fresh while reading this board on
>>> the web, I can't get VO to read the compose or Reply buttons while viewing
>>> this, or any other Google Group in Safari on the iPhone. Let's see if that
>>> clarifies things.
 Thanks,
 KEVIN
 
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Re: no voiceover

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

Just to add to what David said, sometimes the way your holding your phone makes 
a difference.Especially if not using a case.  Its very easy for a portion of 
your hand, like the palm a long your thumb for example, to be in contact with 
the very edge of the screen.  This can easily register unwanted gestures.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Aug 3, 2013, at 6:20 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:

> The iOS device misinterpreting a gesture command is about as common as the 
> computer misinterpreting a keyboard key press. It can happen, but almost 
> never does. In actuality, the touch-screen is extremely sensitive. We blind 
> people tend to touch much more firmly than we need to. Barely touching the 
> screen, with a touch that is so light that we do not realize we are touching 
> the screen, is all that is required. So, when iOS does something different 
> than you are expecting it to do, either your angle is changed enough that the 
> direction of your flick or slide is the other direction, or the number of 
> fingers touching / tapping the screen is more than you thought. Every time I 
> test it again because I am experiencing different commands, it becomes 
> obvious that my fingers are becoming lazy again.
> 
> Always, the best way to double-check your commands is to go into the practice 
> area and play around.
> 
> The best analogy I can think of is, if you place your fingers on the wrong 
> home row keys on the keyboard and reach down to press control c to copy, you 
> know you are pressing control c. But, your finger is landing on v, so more 
> text is being added. The computer is doing exactly what you are telling it to 
> do. The only problem is, you are telling it something different than you 
> believe.
> 
> Remember, iOS touch-screen only requires the slightest touch to function. It 
> does not require any pressure at all.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 03/08/2013, at 19:40, "Arnold Schmidt"  wrote:
> 
>> A three-finger double tap turns speech on and off, a three-finger triple tap 
>> turns screen curtain on and off.  I wish it were the other way around.  I 
>> can't recall a specific example at the moment, but I have had speech turn 
>> off when I was doing something very different from a three-finger double 
>> tap, it just interpreted what I was doing as such.  If it were a 
>> three-finger triple tap to turn speech on and off, perhaps it wouldn't be so 
>> quick to think I was turning speech off. 
>>  
>> Arnold Schmidt 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Kimmie
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:51 PM
>> Subject: RE: no voiceover
>> 
>> Wow! Thanks for the info.  I’ll keep that.  I have a problem with some times 
>> when I pick up my iphone, and somehow I’ve touched something, and next thing 
>> it says speech off, well first up I tapped, slapped, swiped, slid, and 
>> everything else you care to name, but it took ages for the speech to come 
>> back on again, so I triple clicked and turned voice over on again, but is 
>> there an easier way? I don’t mind doing the triple click, but why is it so 
>> easy to touch the screen, and speech goes off, without you
>> Knowing what part of the screen that caused it to say speech off.
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf 
>> Of Alan Paganelli
>> Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 8:00 a.m.
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: no voiceover
>>  
>> To turn on or to turn off "change with buttons" on your iPhone, do the 
>> following.
>>  
>> 1 Open settings.
>> 2Go to and open "Sounds"
>> 3 Flick right with 1 finger until you get to the toggle, "Change with 
>> buttons"  Again, this is a toggle.  Double tap it with 1 finger to toggle on 
>> and off.  When it's off, the up/down buttons on the side of your iPhone only 
>> control the master volume.  So, you can try it either way and live with it 
>> awhile either way and see which one you like better.  When I first got my 
>> iPhone over 2 years ago, I had set it to change with buttons because 
>> somebody told me it was easier for the blind to use that way.  Not knowing 
>> the difference and this being my first iPhone, I did as instructed.  I too 
>> experienced problems with things being turned down or up and then not 
>> knowing to change it and wound up spending more time being frustrated then 
>> anything else.  I by then had forgotten about "change with buttons"  By 
>> accident around a year or so ago I came across it again and thought, change 
>> what?  Then I heard the voice over tip and turned it off.  No more problems 
>> with strange volume changes.  So you can turn down the master volume at 
>> night so you can hear your phone and not wake up the rest of the house!  I 
>> did find a way to fix that though.  I bought an iPhone for my wife!  Now she 
>> c

Re: iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

Since the first version of the iPhone came out in 2009 that supported 
Voiceover, I don’t remember Voiceover ever reading the preview in mail.  Just 
sender subject and date/time.  I remember actually writing Apple accessibility 
a long time ago asking for this feature. 

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Aug 3, 2013, at 7:51 PM, Nimit Gmail  wrote:

> Hello all, 
> You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
> app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
> the email before you actually open to view it?  For example, 
> Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
> trial
> and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
> and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app in 
> order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it 
> stopped reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By 
> that, I mean, from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  It 
> stopped reading that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and callendar 
> and preview and it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me the preview 
> instead of me having to open a message and decide whether I want to delete it 
> or what not.  What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest software version. 
>  Thank you for your assistance. 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
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iPhone voiceover not reading the preview of my messages in my mail app, help?

[Nimit Gmail]

Hello all, 
You guys know when you are browsing the messages/emails in your iPhone mail 
app, voiceover, reads like, unread, sender name, subject, and the preview of 
the email before you actually open to view it?  For example, 
Unread, kaur.ni...@gmail.com, test message, this is a test message for the 
trial
and then, whatever I wrote after that.   I used my email and made my subject 
and message according to how vo sounds, when browsing through the mail app in 
order to clearly ask my question.  Now, when I am viewing my mails, it stopped 
reading me the preview of the message like it used to before.  By that, I mean, 
from my example, where I said, this is a test message..  It stopped reading 
that.  I went into settings and mail, contacts and callendar and preview and 
it's two lines.  What should I do, so it reads me the preview instead of me 
having to open a message and decide whether I want to delete it or what not.  
What should I do?  Using iPhone 5 with latest software version.  Thank you for 
your assistance. 

Sent from my iPad

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Re: Possible VoiceOver Problem With The ITunes Store

[David Chittenden]

Unfortunately, I have just confirmed your experience.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 7:42, "Arnold Schmidt"  wrote:

> Here is the problem,  I hope this is a phone  specific situation for me.
> When I first open ITunes, there is the screen with the tabs along the bottom, 
> music,movies, tv shows, search, and more.   When I select search, I can  find 
> , and buy specific albums as I always could.  When I select the music tab, 
> there is a screen listing this and that and the other, most of which doesn't 
> interest me.  But VoiceOver will read it.  Up until a couple weeks ago, I  
> could tap the genres button at the top, select, in my case, jazz, and look 
> through the new releases, albums mastered for ITunes, and some of the other 
> things they recently had added.  But now, when I select this genres button 
> and select jazz, (I  have tried some of the others with the same results, 
> VoiceOver won't read any of the listings.  There are the featured, charts, 
> and history buttons, but the featured button gives me a screen that VoiceOver 
> won't read.  And, the only way to get back to the original screen in the 
> music tab, before I tapped genres, is to remove ITunes from the app switcher 
> and start over.  Tapping the all genres button use to take me back to the 
> original screen.  When I first noticed this problem, I assumed there was just 
> something wrong with the site, or iTunes, and that it would be corrected in a 
> little while.  But it has gone on too long, to be sure ITunes would have been 
> notified and would have fixed it.  So, I fear that it is a VoiceOver issue.  
> I hope there is somebody reading this who can tap that genres button, select 
> a genre, and see if, under the featured button, there is a listing on that 
> screen VoiceOver is not reading.  Or, if I remember, I will check the next 
> time I am around some people who can read the screen.  Being curious, I 
> selected the genres button under tv shows, selected nonfiction, and got the 
> same results.  If this be a VoiceOver problem , it is one thing if VoiceOver 
> won't work with an app, another thing entirely if it won't work with a 
> section of the ITunes store itself, an integral part of my Apple product.  As 
> I say, I hope it is just  my specific iPhone 5, or perhaps an issue with the 
> ITunes in the United States store.
>  
> Thanks in advance for any opinions.
>  
> Arnold Schmidt  
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Re: Solara question

[David Chittenden]

If there is only one choice, that choice is the only quest available. In order 
to continue in the game, logic would dictate that you activate the only choice. 
This is how the game is set up to teach you how to play it.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 04/08/2013, at 6:01, "Rose Combs"  wrote:

> I got this but after I selected the quest button it gave me only one choice,
> building improvements or something similar, I got no further, tried every
> button I could find and no go, so, why is this game so popular if one has no
> way to start it, no help, no suggestions?  
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Christopher Chaltain
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 1:17 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Solara question
> 
> Upgrades can either expand your castle's width or add to its height. 
> This is noted in the upgrade itself. If you just add to its width then you
> won't be able to build shops that are two stories tall. In the latest
> upgrade to Solara, you can now find out how wide and tall each shop are. If
> you can't fit any two story shops then you know you'll have to wait for an
> upgrade that adds another level of height. If you can't fit a shop of width
> four then try a shop of width three or two.
> 
> On 08/02/2013 12:09 PM, Denny Schwab wrote:
>> I think I may have found my own answer for this.  It seems that you 
>> may run out of space and need to do the Castle Expansions in the 
>> Update tab of the Build window.  Each Castle Expansion adds one level 
>> to your tower, and you may not have enough floors to build if you are 
>> trying to do a multi-floor shop.  The notes I read said you may have 
>> to do multiple Castle Expansions, without adding any new shops, if you 
>> want to do a multi-level shop.
>> 
>> I found this info on the comments in the Applevis entry for this app.
>> 
>> Denny
>> 
>> On 8/2/13, Cait and Maggie  wrote:
>>> I'd like to know this as well.
>>> At first, I thought it was because I wasn't at a certain level, but 
>>> then when I got to level 3 I still couldn't build anything new 
>>> because of the space issue.
>>> How tw do you make a bigger tower space?
>>> thanks,
>>> Cait
>>> 
>>> On 2013-08-02, at 12:06 PM, Denny Schwab  wrote:
>>> 
 Hello,
 
 I just began playing this game, and have a question.  When I go to 
 build things I keep getting a message that there is not enough space 
 in tower to auto-place shop.  I have enough money and esper, so I 
 don't get why I keep getting this message.
 
 Any suggestions?
 
 thanks,
 
 Denny
 
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Re: no voiceover

[David Chittenden]

The iOS device misinterpreting a gesture command is about as common as the 
computer misinterpreting a keyboard key press. It can happen, but almost never 
does. In actuality, the touch-screen is extremely sensitive. We blind people 
tend to touch much more firmly than we need to. Barely touching the screen, 
with a touch that is so light that we do not realise we are touching the 
screen, is all that is required. So, when iOS does something different than you 
are expecting it to do, either your angle is changed enough that the direction 
of your flick or slide is the other direction, or the number of fingers 
touching / tapping the screen is more than you thought. Every time I test it 
again because I am experiencing different commands, it becomes obvious that my 
fingers are becoming lazy again.

Always, the best way to double-check your commands is to go into the practice 
area and play around.

The best analogy I can think of is, if you place your fingers on the wrong home 
row keys on the keyboard and reach down to press control c to copy, you know 
you are pressing control c. But, your finger is landing on v, so more text is 
being added. The computer is doing exactly what you are telling it to do. The 
only problem is, you are telling it something different than you believe.

Remember, iOS touch-screen only requires the slightest touch to function. It 
does not require any pressure at all.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 03/08/2013, at 19:40, "Arnold Schmidt"  wrote:

> A three-finger double tap turns speech on and off, a three-finger triple tap 
> turns screen curtain on and off.  I wish it were the other way around.  I 
> can't recall a specific example at the moment, but I have had speech turn off 
> when I was doing something very different from a three-finger double tap, it 
> just interpreted what I was doing as such.  If it were a three-finger triple 
> tap to turn speech on and off, perhaps it wouldn't be so quick to think I was 
> turning speech off. 
>  
> Arnold Schmidt 
> - Original Message -
> From: Kimmie
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:51 PM
> Subject: RE: no voiceover
> 
> Wow! Thanks for the info.  I’ll keep that.  I have a problem with some times 
> when I pick up my iphone, and somehow I’ve touched something, and next thing 
> it says speech off, well first up I tapped, slapped, swiped, slid, and 
> everything else you care to name, but it took ages for the speech to come 
> back on again, so I triple clicked and turned voice over on again, but is 
> there an easier way? I don’t mind doing the triple click, but why is it so 
> easy to touch the screen, and speech goes off, without you
> Knowing what part of the screen that caused it to say speech off.
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> Alan Paganelli
> Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 8:00 a.m.
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: no voiceover
>  
> To turn on or to turn off "change with buttons" on your iPhone, do the 
> following.
>  
> 1 Open settings.
> 2Go to and open "Sounds"
> 3 Flick right with 1 finger until you get to the toggle, "Change with 
> buttons"  Again, this is a toggle.  Double tap it with 1 finger to toggle on 
> and off.  When it's off, the up/down buttons on the side of your iPhone only 
> control the master volume.  So, you can try it either way and live with it 
> awhile either way and see which one you like better.  When I first got my 
> iPhone over 2 years ago, I had set it to change with buttons because somebody 
> told me it was easier for the blind to use that way.  Not knowing the 
> difference and this being my first iPhone, I did as instructed.  I too 
> experienced problems with things being turned down or up and then not knowing 
> to change it and wound up spending more time being frustrated then anything 
> else.  I by then had forgotten about "change with buttons"  By accident 
> around a year or so ago I came across it again and thought, change what?  
> Then I heard the voice over tip and turned it off.  No more problems with
> strange volume changes.  So you can turn down the master volume at night so 
> you can hear your phone and not wake up the rest of the house!  I did find a 
> way to fix that though.  I bought an iPhone for my wife!  Now she can't say 
> anything cause she does it too!  Problem solved! 
> 
> Regards,
>  
> Alan
>  
> Go Chicago Bears in 2013!
>  
> Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!  
> Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.
>  
> Please click on: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
> There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
> the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  I often add files so check back regularly!
>  
> The albums in Technics  format formerly on my website are still
> available up

Re: Can't send to this group without sight

[Arianna]

I can agree with that. It's not as if it would be very hard to make the 
interface accessible.


Thanks,
Ari

On Aug 3, 2013, at 11:37 AM, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:

> Of course Sieghard and Ari are right, but this still doesn't mean the web 
> interface to Google Groups shouldn't be accessible with Safari and VoiceOver.
> 
> On 08/03/2013 02:09 AM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote:
>> Hi Kevin,
>> 
>> I agree with Ariana, reading this group and participating by email is a much
>> nicer, faster and less frustrating experience. I prefer to do this on a
>> computer, since I do write a fair amount on here and that is of course still
>> much faster pon my computer than even with a Bluetooth keyboard on the
>> iPhone.
>> 
>> I don't want to say that you have to use email, but it's so easy nowadays to
>> set up a gmail or Outlook.com account which you can use strictly for Viphone
>> and maybe other groups you like to participate in. This way the mail goes
>> into a separate Inbox and doesn't interfere at all with your normal mail.
>> I used to subscribe to digest messages, but I have since discovered that
>> subscribing to individual messages gives me more control and is actually
>> faster. I have conversation view turned on so when I arrow through the list
>> of messages I can simply delete those topics I am not interested in, I can
>> open messages I think I want to check out and if it's something I want to
>> reply to I just have to do a Control+R, type my message and press
>> Control+Enter to send it. Writing a new message is just as easy since as
>> soon as I type the first 2 or 3 letters of "Viphone" when I am in the To
>> field, the list address auto completes.
>> 
>> If you don't have time to read you can just do a Control+A in whatever email
>> client you are using, Outlook is my choice, and press delete.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Sieghard
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
>> Of Arianna
>> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:02 PM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Can't send to this group without sight
>> 
>> Just out of curiosity, why not use the Mail app on the iPhone? Just a
>> thought. I do, and I love it.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Ari
>> 
>> On Aug 2, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Kevin Gibbs  wrote:
>> 
>>> Guys, I'm not talking about using the Mail app. I'm talking about posting
>> to this group from the web.  When I read through stuff on the web and wish
>> to respond, or I decide to post something fresh while reading this board on
>> the web, I can't get VO to read the compose or Reply buttons while viewing
>> this, or any other Google Group in Safari on the iPhone. Let's see if that
>> clarifies things.
>>> Thanks,
>>> KEVIN
>>> 
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More 

Re: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

[David Chittenden]

Well, you can put a couple apps into a folder, and place it in one of the four 
slots in the dock.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 03/08/2013, at 21:37, "jim"  wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>  
> The IPhone apps dock at the bottom of the screen, is it possible to have more 
> than 4 apps in there?  I already have my 4 there, but it would be really nice 
> to be able to have one more, and as much as I have tried, the fith one will 
> not fit.  Is there any way of doing this?
>  
> Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Kind regards.
> Jim.
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Re: Possible VoiceOver Problem With The ITunes Store

[Daniel Miller]

Hi,

I’m having that same issue on my iPhone 5. It could possibly be a problem with 
the store itself, and not Voiceover, since I have no way of knowing if those 
pages are actually loading. If there’s text on the screen, then it’s a 
Voiceover issue, but if not, then it’s a problem with the store itself.

On Aug 3, 2013, at 2:42 PM, Arnold Schmidt  wrote:

> Here is the problem,  I hope this is a phone specific situation for me.
> When I first open ITunes, there is the screen with the tabs along the bottom, 
> music,movies, tv shows, search, and more.   When I select search, I can  find 
> , and buy specific albums as I always could.  When I select the music tab, 
> there is a screen listing this and that and the other, most of which doesn't 
> interest me.  But VoiceOver will read it.  Up until a couple weeks ago, I  
> could tap the genres button at the top, select, in my case, jazz, and look 
> through the new releases, albums mastered for ITunes, and some of the other 
> things they recently had added.  But now, when I select this genres button 
> and select jazz, (I have tried some of the others with the same results, 
> VoiceOver won't read any of the listings.  There are the featured, charts, 
> and history buttons, but the featured button gives me a screen that VoiceOver 
> won't read.  And, the only way to get back to the original screen in the 
> music tab, before I tapped genres, is to remove ITunes from the app switcher 
> and start over.  Tapping the all genres button use to take me back to the 
> original screen.  When I first noticed this problem, I assumed there was just 
> something wrong with the site, or iTunes, and that it would be corrected in a 
> little while.  But it has gone on too long, to be sure ITunes would have been 
> notified and would have fixed it.  So, I fear that it is a VoiceOver issue.  
> I hope there is somebody reading this who can tap that genres button, select 
> a genre, and see if, under the featured button, there is a listing on that 
> screen VoiceOver is not reading.  Or, if I remember, I will check the next 
> time I am around some people who can read the screen.  Being curious, I 
> selected the genres button under tv shows, selected nonfiction, and got the 
> same results.  If this be a VoiceOver problem , it is one thing if VoiceOver 
> won't work with an app, another thing entirely if it won't work with a 
> section of the ITunes store itself, an integral part of my Apple product.  As 
> I say, I hope it is just my specific iPhone 5, or perhaps an issue with the 
> ITunes in the United States store.
>  
> Thanks in advance for any opinions.
>  
> Arnold Schmidt  
> 
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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Arnold Schmidt]

Oh, I am not so worried about what the blindness community would do.  But you 
know that it wouldn't take long for some blog, or whatever, to pick up on the 
fact that, hey, if you don't like an app, tell them that you are blind, use 
VoiceOver, and for the life of you, you just can't figure out how to get this 
app to work with VoiceOver.  So, you know, you need a refund.  I would rather 
them just institute a refund period, maybe 24 hours, to ask for a refund.  That 
would make Apple look as if they really care about their customers, and benefit 
everybody, including the VoiceOver users. Unfortunately, to cut down on the 
abuse, they might have to set a maximum number of refunds for a given time 
period, but I could live with that.  

Arnold Schmidt  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Cara Quinn 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 4:28 AM
  Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


  Hello Arnold,


  thanks so much for your note.


  I'm personally not willing to give into the worry of the least common 
denominator principle. If anything, what we've seen so far in the case of this 
community when it comes to asking for refunds for apps, is that people have 
been more than upstanding, patient and forgiving. -to a fault if I may be so 
bold. If I may also say so, this is not always the same in other circles of 
blind / visually impaired users of technology I've encountered, so it honestly 
warms my heart to say what I have just said about people being upstanding here. 
:)


  Because of this, I still believe it is reasonable to ask for a policy for 
refunds if we are not given the opportunity to know ahead of time whether an 
app is usable with VO.


  If we can get a descriptive blurb, then a refund would simply depend on what 
such a blurb says. I.E. if an app's main advertised features were not 
accessible with VoiceOver and a customer chose to purchase said app anyway, 
they would not be eligible for a refund. Simple as that… :)


  Regardless of the feelings on either side of this issue, I feel this does 
need to be brought up in a real and meaningful way. It's best we don't 
inadvertently sweep this one under the rug because we may not have a good 
answer for this yet. Better for this to be discussed and refined at length if 
necessary.


  Thanks so much for your note!


  Smiles,


  Cara :)

  On Aug 3, 2013, at 1:02 AM, Arnold Schmidt  wrote:


  As I state in another message, I would be much more willing to support a 
general refund policy, such as Google has, or at least use to have, rather than 
an it won't work with VoiceOver policy.  That is just too open to abuse.   
Besides, a general refund policy would be an even better way to let developers 
know if people didn't like their app, a bunch of them all requested refunds.   
It might even improve accessibility. 

  Arnold Schmidt
- Original Message -
From: Cara Quinn
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


Sieghard and All,


Let me encourage you and actually everyone on this list to write Apple 
Accessibility to request that there be reasonable accommodation in place for 
VoiceOver users to receive app refunds in cases like Sieghard's. I'd also 
suggest that Sieghard's note be attached to your own.


I believe this issue needs to be brought into the forefront in a positive 
and decisive way. We are almost 2000 people on this list and this is a very 
good opportunity to make this point heard.


This discussion has come up before of being alerted of VO accessibility 
ahead of time in the App Store and though we've not come to a set conclusion on 
the best way to do this, having some indication that an app has been found to 
be accessible to some degree with VoiceOver before we purchase it is a 
completely reasonable request. If this is not possible, then it is more than 
reasonable to ask for refunds if we cannot use an app which is not accessible 
to us with the available Apple universal access paradigm.


the email address for Apple Accessibility is:


accessibil...@apple.com


These are very caring people so please keep this in mind when you write. 
I've known some of them personally. They want to help though there may not be a 
clear way of making this happen just yet. Just let them know this is important 
though. Make your voice heard in a friendly way. they will listen to you even 
if they do not know the best answer yet. :)


Thanks All, for your time.


Sincerely,


Cara :)
On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:


Hello List,

Requesting a refund for an app which turns out not to work with Voiceover 
has come up a few times and the iTunes Store support email has been posted in 
connection with that. So I thought I post my recent experience with contacting 
iTunes St

Re: App refund - the story continues

[Arnold Schmidt]

Warning:  cynicism to follow.  I have long since been convinced that these, as 
Clark Howard sometimes calls them,  customer no service reps have these  
pre-written replies they send out to answer an amazing number of questions.  
They read the subject line, and maybe a line or two of the question, click a 
pre-scripted reply, and send it off.  Hey, a company could even write software 
to do this.  Have you ever gotten an answer from one of them to the effect that 
they didn't know the answer, the solution to the problem, too bad?  I'll bet 
not, or at least, not very often.  That really would make them, and their 
company,  look bad, not knowing what the heck was wrong.   End of cynicism. 

Arnold Schmidt 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Sieghard Weitzel 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 12:05 PM
  Subject: App refund - the story continues


  Hello List,

   

  I had requested help regarding my ignored request for a refund for 2 not 
Voiceover accessible apps from another iTunes Store support agent. Granted, I 
did so in a reply I sent to her about another problem I had when a gift card I 
purchased didn't allow me to redeem it, but here is her reply which doesn't 
even mention my request for help with the refund issue. I guess I will write a 
completely new message asking for clarification.

   

  Original Message-
  From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] 
  Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:01 AM
  To: siegh...@hotmail.ca
  Subject: Re: Gift Card code shows as "not properly activated"; Follow-up: 
282515016

   

  Follow-Up: 282515016

   

  Hello again, 

   

  I wanted to send a quick note to see if you are still experiencing any 
difficulties with the iTunes Store. Resolving your issue is important to me, so 
please don't hesitate to reply if you need any further assistance.

   

  Sincerely,

   

  Raquel

  iTunes Store/Mac App Store Customer Support

   

  Please Note: I work Tuesday-Saturday, 8:00AM-5:00PM EST 


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Possible VoiceOver Problem With The ITunes Store

[Arnold Schmidt]

Here is the problem,  I hope this is a phone specific situation for me.When 
I first open ITunes, there is the screen with the tabs along the bottom, 
music,movies, tv shows, search, and more.   When I select search, I can  find , 
and buy specific albums as I always could.  When I select the music tab, there 
is a screen listing this and that and the other, most of which doesn't interest 
me.  But VoiceOver will read it.  Up until a couple weeks ago, I  could tap the 
genres button at the top, select, in my case, jazz, and look through the new 
releases, albums mastered for ITunes, and some of the other things they 
recently had added.  But now, when I select this genres button and select jazz, 
(I have tried some of the others with the same results, VoiceOver won't read 
any of the listings.  There are the featured, charts, and history buttons, but 
the featured button gives me a screen that VoiceOver won't read.  And, the only 
way to get back to the original screen in the music tab, before I tapped 
genres, is to remove ITunes from the app switcher and start over.  Tapping the 
all genres button use to take me back to the original screen.  When I first 
noticed this problem, I assumed there was just something wrong with the site, 
or iTunes, and that it would be corrected in a little while.  But it has gone 
on too long, to be sure ITunes would have been notified and would have fixed 
it.  So, I fear that it is a VoiceOver issue.  I hope there is somebody reading 
this who can tap that genres button, select a genre, and see if, under the 
featured button, there is a listing on that screen VoiceOver is not reading.  
Or, if I remember, I will check the next time I am around some people who can 
read the screen.  Being curious, I selected the genres button under tv shows, 
selected nonfiction, and got the same results.  If this be a VoiceOver problem 
, it is one thing if VoiceOver won't work with an app, another thing entirely 
if it won't work with a section of the ITunes store itself, an integral part of 
my Apple product.  As I say, I hope it is just my specific iPhone 5, or perhaps 
an issue with the ITunes in the United States store.

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

Arnold Schmidt  

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Re: Once again, on the hutn for a cross platform rss reader

[Christopher Chaltain]

not only would it have to be cross platform but the clients on the 
various platforms would have to be accessible or the web page itself 
would have to be accessible. FeedHQ is worth looking into, but we lost 
big time when Google Reader shut down, since there were so many client 
options and at least some of them were accessible. TheOldReader going 
private is a pain because although it didn't have a lot of clients on 
multiple platforms, the web page was usable.


On 08/03/2013 08:21 AM, Craig Werner wrote:

Cristóbal, I wonder if FeedHQ might interest you.  It may indeed be
cross-platform.  It is open source and has a very accessible Web
interface.  The Feeddler app supports FeedHQ accounts.  True, there is
a cost: $12/year, a most reasonable fee.  Also, it may well be that
The Old Reader will stay public after all.  Time will tell.  FeedHQ
can be found at http://www.feedhq.org.

Craig

On 7/29/13, Cristóbal  wrote:

This sure sucks…

http://blog.theoldreader.com/

So, since The Old Reader is going private and I like a few others on here
who signed up after the Google reader shut down announcement aren’t going
to
get migrated over to their new site, it’s back on to the hunt for a cross
platform rss reader. Feedly’s still a no go either with their iOS app or
website layout. Is anyone aware of anything else out there that’ll work on
iOS and can also be accessed through the traditional computer? My
understanding is that Lire is really just for the i-devices. That’s not
what
I’m looking for.



Bummer.



Thanks,

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Re: Solara question

[Christopher Chaltain]

Double tap on the building improvements quest. This will take you to the 
build tab. Look for the specific building it wants you to build and 
double tap it. There will be multiple buildings you can build but to get 
credit for the quest you need to look for the right building.If it's an 
update it'll start building right away. If it's a building (a shop or a 
food establishment) then you'll need to double tap on the autoplace and 
build button. Good luck.


On 08/03/2013 01:01 PM, Rose Combs wrote:

I got this but after I selected the quest button it gave me only one choice,
building improvements or something similar, I got no further, tried every
button I could find and no go, so, why is this game so popular if one has no
way to start it, no help, no suggestions?


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 1:17 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Solara question

Upgrades can either expand your castle's width or add to its height.
This is noted in the upgrade itself. If you just add to its width then you
won't be able to build shops that are two stories tall. In the latest
upgrade to Solara, you can now find out how wide and tall each shop are. If
you can't fit any two story shops then you know you'll have to wait for an
upgrade that adds another level of height. If you can't fit a shop of width
four then try a shop of width three or two.

On 08/02/2013 12:09 PM, Denny Schwab wrote:

I think I may have found my own answer for this.  It seems that you
may run out of space and need to do the Castle Expansions in the
Update tab of the Build window.  Each Castle Expansion adds one level
to your tower, and you may not have enough floors to build if you are
trying to do a multi-floor shop.  The notes I read said you may have
to do multiple Castle Expansions, without adding any new shops, if you
want to do a multi-level shop.

I found this info on the comments in the Applevis entry for this app.

Denny

On 8/2/13, Cait and Maggie  wrote:

I'd like to know this as well.
At first, I thought it was because I wasn't at a certain level, but
then when I got to level 3 I still couldn't build anything new
because of the space issue.
How tw do you make a bigger tower space?
thanks,
Cait

On 2013-08-02, at 12:06 PM, Denny Schwab  wrote:


Hello,

I just began playing this game, and have a question.  When I go to
build things I keep getting a message that there is not enough space
in tower to auto-place shop.  I have enough money and esper, so I
don't get why I keep getting this message.

Any suggestions?

thanks,

Denny

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Re: Can't post to list

[Christopher Chaltain]

Yeah, I saw this post on list as well, although from reading it, it 
looks like Joseph meant to send it directly to Cara. I'm not sure the 
viphone owners mail address is working yet, but you can also send these 
messages directly to Raul. With the list traffic, they sometimes don't 
get noticed right away.


You are right Joseph, new members get placed on moderation until it's 
clear that they're real people. Lois is also correct in that since 
you're using Gmail, you won't see your posts in your email on a Google 
Groups list. You will see them if you check the web though.


On 08/03/2013 04:08 AM, Lois Butterfield wrote:

Hi Joseph,

Your message made it to the list this time.  Maybe you just aren't seeing
your own messages?

Lois


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Joseph FreeTech
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 5:05 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Can't post to list

Hi Kara,

I'm a list member on the VIPhone members list. I see that you are a
moderator, so I concluded you are the person to contact about this
problem. (Smile).

I can't seem to post to the VIPhone list. I've sent about 3 or 4
messages within the last week and have not seen it arrive on the list.
About 2 days ago I sent a message using one of the links at the bottom
of each email message that arrives on the list, but no one from
moderators group has replied to my request for help. I don't know what
is going on so thought I would ask you for help. Please let me know if
there is something wrong on my end, but I am receiving messages just
fine, I just can't post. I know new members are placed on some sort of
restriction, so it might just be that I'm still on that restriction.
Thanks.

Joseph



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Re: Can't send to this group without sight

[Christopher Chaltain]

Of course Sieghard and Ari are right, but this still doesn't mean the 
web interface to Google Groups shouldn't be accessible with Safari and 
VoiceOver.


On 08/03/2013 02:09 AM, Sieghard Weitzel wrote:

Hi Kevin,

I agree with Ariana, reading this group and participating by email is a much
nicer, faster and less frustrating experience. I prefer to do this on a
computer, since I do write a fair amount on here and that is of course still
much faster pon my computer than even with a Bluetooth keyboard on the
iPhone.

I don't want to say that you have to use email, but it's so easy nowadays to
set up a gmail or Outlook.com account which you can use strictly for Viphone
and maybe other groups you like to participate in. This way the mail goes
into a separate Inbox and doesn't interfere at all with your normal mail.
I used to subscribe to digest messages, but I have since discovered that
subscribing to individual messages gives me more control and is actually
faster. I have conversation view turned on so when I arrow through the list
of messages I can simply delete those topics I am not interested in, I can
open messages I think I want to check out and if it's something I want to
reply to I just have to do a Control+R, type my message and press
Control+Enter to send it. Writing a new message is just as easy since as
soon as I type the first 2 or 3 letters of "Viphone" when I am in the To
field, the list address auto completes.

If you don't have time to read you can just do a Control+A in whatever email
client you are using, Outlook is my choice, and press delete.


Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Arianna
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:02 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can't send to this group without sight

Just out of curiosity, why not use the Mail app on the iPhone? Just a
thought. I do, and I love it.


Thanks,
Ari

On Aug 2, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Kevin Gibbs  wrote:


Guys, I'm not talking about using the Mail app. I'm talking about posting

to this group from the web.  When I read through stuff on the web and wish
to respond, or I decide to post something fresh while reading this board on
the web, I can't get VO to read the compose or Reply buttons while viewing
this, or any other Google Group in Safari on the iPhone. Let's see if that
clarifies things.

Thanks,
KEVIN

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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Donna]

I would agree with you BUT 1. Most developers DO NOT specify whether if the 
apps are VO accessible. Sooo those of us, like myself, play a game of hit or 
miss with apps being Vo Accessible. And from my experience, most developers DO 
NOT include their contact info in the apps description. And one can't assume 
that just because the lite version of an app isn't VO accessible the paid 
version isn't as well. An example of this is Moxie classic, which as of my last 
check is Free and isn't VO accessible. Moxie 2 is a paid app and is VO 
accessible. 

2. And there are instances where the Free version of an app is VO accessible 
and with the developer's upgrades they have chosen for whatever reason to no 
longer have the app VO accessible. 

3. A sighted person has not only the app description, but 5 different picture 
screen shots showing what the app of interest looks like. So a sighted person 
is given a little more info to aid them when making a purchase. What you are 
overlooking is the fact a person with sight can try out the FREE version of an 
app before buying the full version. 

So until Apple forces ALL app developers to add in the apps description whether 
the apps are VO accessible and require developers to incclude their contact 
info in the description, putting the blind VO user on the same level buying 
apps playing field, Ifeel Apple has no right to deny a blind user a refund! No 
one is pulling the blind card when requesting a refund, we are asking for 
equality to be offered when desiding to purchase an app. Until that equality is 
met and ALL info provided for us VO users we deserve a refund for an 
unsatisfactory product. 

Donna   


> Hi All,
>  
> My concern here is this.  So what happens when a sighted person gets an app 
> and they think it doesn't meet their needs.  Do they get a refund?  I'd guess 
> not.  This sounds to me to much like pulling out the blind card. What I'm 
> saying here is, if there is a satisfaction guaranteed or your money back 
> policy in place then that's one thing but just because it doesn't work well 
> with voice over may not fly.---
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Alan
>  
> Go Chicago Bears in 2013!
>  
> Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!  
> Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.
>  
> Please click on: 
> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
> There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
> the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  The albums in Technics  format formerly on my 
> website are still available upon request.  Thanks for listening!
> - Original Message -
> From: Sieghard Weitzel
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 1:49 AM
> Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunesStore support regarding app refund
> 
> Hi Cara,
>  
> I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this 
> they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the hassle. I 
> must say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return policy Google 
> apparently offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do something like 
> that is not just a completely different ball game, it’s a different sport!
>  
> If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could request 
> proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could limit refunds 
> to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given their computers they 
> could easily track this on somebody’s Apple Id.
>  
> If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as an 
> example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, i.e. 
> order number and all that, as well as the response I received.
> It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand the 
> situation, but on another level she apparently didn’t. She summarized my 
> request by saying I “inadvertently “ purchased some apps which of course is 
> not at all the case and not what I said.
> Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really 
> didn’t get it despite the fact that she said it was an “appropriate 
> exception” and they would refund me the money which still has not happened:
>  
> From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] 
> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM
> To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com'
> Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps
>  
> Hello,
>  
> My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for tracking 
> packages in order to find out which one offered the best features. I tried a 
> couple more, but they had free Lite versions which allowed me to try them 
> before buying the full version.
>  
> I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and 
> unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps have 
> accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. I wrote 
> to the developers, but hav

Re: Reading Braille Books With Bookshare on iOS Devices

[Desi Noller]

Hi Anna,

If things haven't improved as far as reading Braille is concerned, I probably 
won't purchase Voice Dream Reader just yet, but if there are other people on 
list who are using it to read Braille, maybe they can tell us if the Braille 
reading experience has gotten any better.  Thanks so much for sharing your 
experience!

Desi


  
On Aug 2, 2013, at 7:52 PM, Woody Anna Dresner  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I tried reading with a braille display and Voice Dream Reader a couple of 
> months ago, and it didn't work well. When I got to the end of the text on a 
> screen, I could back up a line and use the Next Screen command the way I do 
> in iBooks, but the last two or so lines from the previous page would appear 
> at the top, so there was repetition every time I switched screens, and each 
> screen was short, so it was bad for reading braille. It's nice for reading 
> with synthesized speech, though, and it's possible that reading with braille 
> has improved since; there have been at least a couple of updates since then.
> 
> Best,
> Anna
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 2, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Desi Noller  wrote:
> 
>> Hi Anna,
>> 
>> Thank you so much!  Have you had any experience using Voice Dream Reader?  
>> If so, do you like one over the other, and what differences have you found?
>> 
>> Desi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 1, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Woody Anna Dresner  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I routinely read with my braille display using Read2Go. As long as I set it 
>>> to read by section, I only have to change sections between chapters; within 
>>> a chapter, the reading is continuous. You search for and download books 
>>> within the app. It downloads the DAISY version, so you have access to any 
>>> navigation built into the book, but the text is displayed in Grade 2, just 
>>> as other text on the iPHone is. Occasionally a book is marked up oddly, so 
>>> that each chapter title is considered its own section, so you have to move 
>>> to the next section to read the title and do that again to start reading 
>>> the chapter, but most of the time, it works fine.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Anna
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jul 29, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Desi Noller  wrote:
>>> 
 Hi Everybody,
 
 I am strongly considering purchasing the Read To Go App from Bookshare, 
 but before I do, I would love to know if it is possible to read Bookshare 
 books in Braille with my Braille display?  If so, would I download the 
 .brf version or the Daisy version?  And, how well does it work?  Thanks 
 for any help with this, and thanks also to all of you who have offered me 
 such warm welcomes!
 
 Desi
 
 
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Re: Joining the macvisionaries list

[Desi Noller]

Hi Richard,

I too have been having the same problem!  I hope someone is willing to provide 
us with some answers.  I hear it is a great list, and I'm always looking for 
places to learn about my iMac and iOS devices!  I haven't found the Mac 
Visionaries group page to be that accessible either!  Maybe some of the fault 
is on my end regarding settings or something, but again, I'm just hoping 
someone is willing to help us with this!

Desi



On Aug 3, 2013, at 4:50 AM, `Richard Benoit  wrote:

> Hi,
> There seems to be no way to join this list except by invitation.  If there is 
> anyone that can provide the steps to get an invitation it would be greatly 
> appreciated.
>  
> Richard
> 
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RE: Solara question

[Rose Combs]

I got this but after I selected the quest button it gave me only one choice,
building improvements or something similar, I got no further, tried every
button I could find and no go, so, why is this game so popular if one has no
way to start it, no help, no suggestions?  


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 1:17 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Solara question

Upgrades can either expand your castle's width or add to its height. 
This is noted in the upgrade itself. If you just add to its width then you
won't be able to build shops that are two stories tall. In the latest
upgrade to Solara, you can now find out how wide and tall each shop are. If
you can't fit any two story shops then you know you'll have to wait for an
upgrade that adds another level of height. If you can't fit a shop of width
four then try a shop of width three or two.

On 08/02/2013 12:09 PM, Denny Schwab wrote:
> I think I may have found my own answer for this.  It seems that you 
> may run out of space and need to do the Castle Expansions in the 
> Update tab of the Build window.  Each Castle Expansion adds one level 
> to your tower, and you may not have enough floors to build if you are 
> trying to do a multi-floor shop.  The notes I read said you may have 
> to do multiple Castle Expansions, without adding any new shops, if you 
> want to do a multi-level shop.
>
> I found this info on the comments in the Applevis entry for this app.
>
> Denny
>
> On 8/2/13, Cait and Maggie  wrote:
>> I'd like to know this as well.
>> At first, I thought it was because I wasn't at a certain level, but 
>> then when I got to level 3 I still couldn't build anything new 
>> because of the space issue.
>> How tw do you make a bigger tower space?
>> thanks,
>> Cait
>>
>> On 2013-08-02, at 12:06 PM, Denny Schwab  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I just began playing this game, and have a question.  When I go to 
>>> build things I keep getting a message that there is not enough space 
>>> in tower to auto-place shop.  I have enough money and esper, so I 
>>> don't get why I keep getting this message.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions?
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> Denny
>>>
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Would appreciate knowing if I can upload n audio file to Facebook

[Christine Grassman]

I played around with both the mobile site on my MacBook, and the iPHone app, 
and cannot figure out a way to do it. I can only upload photos.  I sometimes 
can get a "choose file" to appear on the mobile site, but cannot find which 
button allows me to choose the file before hitting that button. 
Thank you.
Christine

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RE: Another Blind Square question

[Don & Cher Bosch]

Mike said it was a toggle option of BlindSquare- I don't have that app yet,
did you check settings under the app and also under the General Settings?

Cher
 

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Thom
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 4:40 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Another Blind Square question

You should be able to shake the device. OR go to tools, and my lovation.

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Donald L. Roberts
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 4:20 PM
To: Viphone
Subject: Another Blind Square question


Mike Arrego did a recent podcast in wich he used Blind Square in conjunction
with commercial GPS apps. I'm sorry but I don't recall specifically which
podcast. In that podcast, there was a periodic announcement of the amount of
distance Mike had walked. Whether this was a function of Blind Square or
some other GPS App is something I don't know.  But I am writing to inquire
whether Blind Square has such a function. I have given the docs a cursory
examination but haven't seen it although I certainly may have missed it. If
Blind Square can maintain and periodically anounce an aggregate total of the
distance walked, please explain to me just what to do to enable this
feature. Thanks.

Don Roberts

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Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Alan Paganelli]

Hi All,

My concern here is this.  So what happens when a sighted person gets an app and 
they think it doesn't meet their needs.  Do they get a refund?  I'd guess not.  
This sounds to me to much like pulling out the blind card. What I'm saying here 
is, if there is a satisfaction guaranteed or your money back policy in place 
then that's one thing but just because it doesn't work well with voice over may 
not fly. 
---

Regards,

Alan

Go Chicago Bears in 2013!

Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!  Move 
out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.

Please click on: 
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  The albums in Technics  format formerly on my 
website are still available upon request.  Thanks for listening!

  - Original Message - 
  From: Sieghard Weitzel 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 1:49 AM
  Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


  Hi Cara,

   

  I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this 
they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the hassle. I 
must say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return policy Google 
apparently offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do something like that 
is not just a completely different ball game, it's a different sport!

   

  If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could request 
proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could limit refunds 
to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given their computers they 
could easily track this on somebody's Apple Id.

   

  If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as an 
example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, i.e. 
order number and all that, as well as the response I received.

  It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand the 
situation, but on another level she apparently didn't. She summarized my 
request by saying I "inadvertently " purchased some apps which of course is not 
at all the case and not what I said.

  Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really 
didn't get it despite the fact that she said it was an "appropriate exception" 
and they would refund me the money which still has not happened:

   

  From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] 
  Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM
  To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com'
  Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps

   

  Hello,

   

  My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for tracking 
packages in order to find out which one offered the best features. I tried a 
couple more, but they had free Lite versions which allowed me to try them 
before buying the full version.

   

  I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and 
unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps have 
accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. I wrote to 
the developers, but have not received any reply as to whether they might 
consider making improvements so the apps would work with Voiceover. I used 
iTunes credit to pay for the paid apps and was wondering if it was possible to 
receive a refund since I have already deleted the apps from my phone.

   

  -Original Message-
  From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] 
  Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:50 PM
  To: siegh...@hotmail.ca
  Subject: Re: Voiceover inaccessible apps; Follow-up: 280679929

   

  Dear Sieghard,

   

  Greetings from iTunes Store Customer Support. My name is Alishia and I am 
happy to assist you today.

   

  I understand that you inadvertently purchased some apps from the App Store 
and you would like to receive a refund for the purchase. I know how important 
it is to have the issue resolved. I assure you of assistance.

   

  Sieghard, after reviewing the circumstances of your case, we determined that 
issuing you a refund for the purchase of "Apps" is an appropriate exception to 
the iTunes Store Terms and Conditions, which state that all sales are final. 

   

  You will see 6.70 CAD added to your store credit balance within 48 hours. You 
may need to sign out of the iTunes Store and then sign back in before you see 
the credit in your account. 

   

  The iTunes Store provides a warning message that asks if you are sure that 
you want to buy an item. This warning can be turned off. If you would like to 
make sure that this warning is on, you can reset the warnings in the iTunes 
Store by following the instructions in this article:

   

  Resetting iTunes Store warnings

  http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1734

   

  Additionally, you can make modifications on certain devices that will prevent

RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Lois Butterfield]

Okay, it must have been my lucky day then.  I was surprised at how
immediately it happened.  I hadn't even left the area where you request the
refund when I heard back.

 

Sorry it's turned into such a nightmare for you.

 

Take care,

Lois

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 11:57 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

 

Hi Lois,

 

This may have been so in your case, but the fact is that Apple states that
"all sales are final" and this means they have no obligation to refund a
purchase if they don't feel like it.

The person who processed my request said they determined that a refund for
these apps I purchased was an "appropriate exception", but in the next
paragraph she explained about how iTunes gives you a warning before you buy
an app just so you don't accidently do so.

The person who processed your refund might also have decided to be a
stickler for the rules and said that it was not an "appropriate exception"
and, well, too bad, you were told that all sales are final.

It is my feeling that the response you get depends a great deal on the
person who handles your request and what mood they might be in on that
particular day. Clearly they have the ability to give refunds, but how
readily they do so and for what reasons is determined by Apple and I bet if
an agent approved every request for a refnd he or she would get into trouble
with their supervisor.

 

 

Regards,

Sieghard

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App refund - the story continues

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hello List,

 

I had requested help regarding my ignored request for a refund for 2 not
Voiceover accessible apps from another iTunes Store support agent. Granted,
I did so in a reply I sent to her about another problem I had when a gift
card I purchased didn't allow me to redeem it, but here is her reply which
doesn't even mention my request for help with the refund issue. I guess I
will write a completely new message askig for clarification.

 

Original Message-
From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:01 AM
To: siegh...@hotmail.ca
Subject: Re: Gift Card code shows as "not properly activated"; Follow-up:
282515016

 

Follow-Up: 282515016

 

Hello again, 

 

I wanted to send a quick note to see if you are still experiencing any
difficulties with the iTunes Store. Resolving your issue is important to me,
so please don't hesitate to reply if you need any further assistance.

 

Sincerely,

 

Raquel

iTunes Store/Mac App Store Customer Support

 

Please Note: I work Tuesday-Saturday, 8:00AM-5:00PM EST 

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RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hi Lois,

 

This may have been so in your case, but the fact is that Apple states that
"all sales are final" and this means they have no obligation to refund a
purchase if they don't feel like it.

The person who processed my request said they determined that a refund for
these apps I purchased was an "appropriate exception", but in the next
paragraph she explained about how iTunes gives you a warning before you buy
an app just so you don't accidently do so.

The person who processed your refund might also have decided to be a
stickler for the rules and said that it was not an "appropriate exception"
and, well, too bad, you were told that all sales are final.

It is my feeling that the response you get depends a great deal on the
person who handles your request and what mood they might be in on that
particular day. Clearly they have the ability to give refunds, but how
readily they do so and for what reasons is determined by Apple and I bet if
an agent approved every request for a refnd he or she would get into trouble
with their supervisor.

 

 

Regards,

Sieghard

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Email question

[Shane clark]

Hello, I am subscribed to another list, but the emails are going to my spam 
folder instead of my inbox folder. How do I change this to make those messages 
go to my inbox?
Thanks, Shane.

Sent from my iPhone

Sent from my iPhone

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RE: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hi Jim,

 

I saw you followed Lois' advice and put a folder in your dock. Just for
completeness sake I thought I mention that there is at least pone jailbreak
tweek which allows for 5 apps in the dock although unless you really like
jailbreaking I think it's definitely not a good enough reason to jailbreak
just so you can have 5 apps in the dock.

 

Regards,

Sieghard

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of jim
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 2:38 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

 

Hi Folks,

 

The IPhone apps dock at the bottom of the screen, is it possible to have
more than 4 apps in there?  I already have my 4 there, but it would be
really nice to be able to have one more, and as much as I have tried, the
fith one will not fit.  Is there any way of doing this?

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Kind regards.
Jim.

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Re: Once again, on the hutn for a cross platform rss reader

[Craig Werner]

Cristóbal, I wonder if FeedHQ might interest you.  It may indeed be
cross-platform.  It is open source and has a very accessible Web
interface.  The Feeddler app supports FeedHQ accounts.  True, there is
a cost: $12/year, a most reasonable fee.  Also, it may well be that
The Old Reader will stay public after all.  Time will tell.  FeedHQ
can be found at http://www.feedhq.org.

Craig

On 7/29/13, Cristóbal  wrote:
> This sure sucks…
>
> http://blog.theoldreader.com/
>
> So, since The Old Reader is going private and I like a few others on here
> who signed up after the Google reader shut down announcement aren’t going
> to
> get migrated over to their new site, it’s back on to the hunt for a cross
> platform rss reader. Feedly’s still a no go either with their iOS app or
> website layout. Is anyone aware of anything else out there that’ll work on
> iOS and can also be accessed through the traditional computer? My
> understanding is that Lire is really just for the i-devices. That’s not
> what
> I’m looking for.
>
>
>
> Bummer.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
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RE: code for pairing a Braille display

[Patti Johnson]

Okay, I'll give that a try, thank you.
Patti
 


 
 

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Chris H
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:50 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: code for pairing a Braille display

According to a podcast I heard it's  so try that.

On 03/08/2013 11:39, Patti Johnson wrote:
> Does any one know what the code  for pairing a Hims Braille display 
> with the Iphone is?
> I know what it is for the Focus, but not for Hims displays.
> Thanks for any help you can give me,
> Patti
>
>
>
>
>

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RE: that pairing code for hims

[Patti Johnson]

Super, thanks, Penny.
You're not any greener than  I am when it comes to a lot of this stuff.  And
I've had my Idevices for 2 years, just got an Ipad Mini in June and have had
to learn all over again.
Patti 


 
 

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Penny Golden
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 7:18 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: that pairing code for hims


May I add one word?  When it is done right, the braille device, at least the
u2 will give you a chime.

On 8/3/2013 6:01 AM, Penny Golden wrote:
> you turn blue tooth on in both. then you are going to be asked for 
> a 4 digit number in  your iPhone settings / accessibility spot.
> you determine the 4 digit number.
> Then you go back to the braille device and you will be asked for the 
> same 4 digit number.
> I hope this helps, for I wanted to copy and paste the whole shebang 
> from their website, but the U2 wouldn't allow for it.
> if you need help, go to their web site and the whole thing is listed 
> under resources.
> And please remember, I'm greener than grass when it comes to these 
> things.
> BestPenny
>

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Re: yoga app question

[brian albriton]

   YogaWithTaniaLite is a free one that has descriptions of poses.  

On Jul 31, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Ioana Gandrabur  wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I am a beginer in Yoga.
> Are there any good yoga apps with discriptions of poses?
> Thanks,
> 
> Ioana
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Re: Bluetooth on/off app?

[Don Breda]

I have found over and over again that the use of bluetooth drains the
battery much faster then wifi, so turning bluetooth off easily will be
one of the biggest battery savers there is for the iPhone.

Don



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Joining the macvisionaries list

[`Richard Benoit]

Hi,

There seems to be no way to join this list except by invitation.  If there
is anyone that can provide the steps to get an invitation it would be
greatly appreciated.

 

Richard

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Re: that pairing code for hims

[Penny Golden]

May I add one word?  When it is done right, the braille device, at least 
the u2 will give you a chime.


On 8/3/2013 6:01 AM, Penny Golden wrote:
you turn blue tooth on in both. then you are going to be asked for 
a 4 digit number in  your iPhone settings / accessibility spot.

you determine the 4 digit number.
Then you go back to the braille device and you will be asked for the 
same 4 digit number.
I hope this helps, for I wanted to copy and paste the whole shebang 
from their website, but the U2 wouldn't allow for it.
if you need help, go to their web site and the whole thing is listed 
under resources.
And please remember, I'm greener than grass when it comes to these 
things.

BestPenny



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Re: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

[jim]

Hi Rob and Lois,

Folders down in the dock was an excellent idea, thanks so much.  It works a 
treat, and was easy to do, never thought of it before.



Regards.
Jim.
-Original Message- 
From: RobH!

Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:53 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

Can't have more than 4 buttons to things,   but some have put a folder in
there with a couple good things in the folder; I'm tempted to try that, but
haven't yet.  Someone can comment more about that hopefully.
Probably have to set up the folder first on the last page,  then move the
one item out, put it in said folder, then move the folder into the vacant
space.

Rh.
- Original Message - 
From: "jim" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock


Hi Folks,

The IPhone apps dock at the bottom of the screen, is it possible to have
more than 4 apps in there?  I already have my 4 there, but it would be
really nice to be able to have one more, and as much as I have tried, the
fith one will not fit.  Is there any way of doing this?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Kind regards.
Jim.

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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3209/6547 - Release Date: 08/02/13 


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that pairing code for hims

[Penny Golden]

you turn blue tooth on in both. then you are going to be asked for 
a 4 digit number in  your iPhone settings / accessibility spot.

you determine the 4 digit number.
Then you go back to the braille device and you will be asked for the 
same 4 digit number.
I hope this helps, for I wanted to copy and paste the whole shebang from 
their website, but the U2 wouldn't allow for it.
if you need help, go to their web site and the whole thing is listed 
under resources.

And please remember, I'm greener than grass when it comes to these things.
BestPenny

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dice world with a bluetooth keyboard

[Rebecca Ilniski]

Hi everyone.  I notice that dice world doesn't work well with a bluetooth 
keyboard.  I do one move with the keyboard and then hit the back button and 
then I get the clicks but no voiceover when using the keyboard.  I wonder if 
this is a bug.

Rebecca and Zeb
email: rilni...@gmail.com
facebook: www.facebook.com/rebeccai5
sent from my IPhone

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Re: code for pairing a Braille display

[Chris H]

According to a podcast I heard it's  so try that.

On 03/08/2013 11:39, Patti Johnson wrote:

Does any one know what the code  for pairing a Hims Braille display with the
Iphone is?
I know what it is for the Focus, but not for Hims displays.
Thanks for any help you can give me,
Patti







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code for pairing a Braille display

[Patti Johnson]

Does any one know what the code  for pairing a Hims Braille display with the
Iphone is?
I know what it is for the Focus, but not for Hims displays.
Thanks for any help you can give me,
Patti
 
 
 
 

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RE: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

[Lois Butterfield]

Hi Rob,

I have my navigation folder in the dock.  You do need to move something out
first so that you don't put something on top and create a folder you don't
want.  Once a space is freed up, you just move the folder into place.  Works
great.

Lois


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of RobH!
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 5:53 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

Can't have more than 4 buttons to things,   but some have put a folder in 
there with a couple good things in the folder; I'm tempted to try that, but 
haven't yet.  Someone can comment more about that hopefully.
Probably have to set up the folder first on the last page,  then move the 
one item out, put it in said folder, then move the folder into the vacant 
space.

Rh.
- Original Message - 
From: "jim" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock


Hi Folks,

The IPhone apps dock at the bottom of the screen, is it possible to have 
more than 4 apps in there?  I already have my 4 there, but it would be 
really nice to be able to have one more, and as much as I have tried, the 
fith one will not fit.  Is there any way of doing this?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Kind regards.
Jim.

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RE: no voiceover

[Kimmie]

No I just pick up the phone to read a text, and maybe when I'm picking it
up, I must place three fingers on the screen, but I certainly don't double
tap.

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Thom
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 3:05 p.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: no voiceover

 

Are you doing a three finger double tap by mistake?

 

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Kimmie
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:52 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: no voiceover

Wow! Thanks for the info.  I'll keep that.  I have a problem with some times
when I pick up my iphone, and somehow I've touched something, and next thing
it says speech off, well first up I tapped, slapped, swiped, slid, and
everything else you care to name, but it took ages for the speech to come
back on again, so I triple clicked and turned voice over on again, but is
there an easier way? I don't mind doing the triple click, but why is it so
easy to touch the screen, and speech goes off, without you 

Knowing what part of the screen that caused it to say speech off. 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Alan Paganelli
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 8:00 a.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: no voiceover

 

To turn on or to turn off "change with buttons" on your iPhone, do the
following.

 

1 Open settings.

2Go to and open "Sounds"

3 Flick right with 1 finger until you get to the toggle, "Change with
buttons"  Again, this is a toggle.  Double tap it with 1 finger to toggle on
and off.  When it's off, the up/down buttons on the side of your iPhone only
control the master volume.  So, you can try it either way and live with it
awhile either way and see which one you like better.  When I first got my
iPhone over 2 years ago, I had set it to change with buttons because
somebody told me it was easier for the blind to use that way.  Not knowing
the difference and this being my first iPhone, I did as instructed.  I too
experienced problems with things being turned down or up and then not
knowing to change it and wound up spending more time being frustrated then
anything else.  I by then had forgotten about "change with buttons"  By
accident around a year or so ago I came across it again and thought, change
what?  Then I heard the voice over tip and turned it off.  No more problems
with strange volume changes.  So you can turn down the master volume at
night so you can hear your phone and not wake up the rest of the house!  I
did find a way to fix that though.  I bought an iPhone for my wife!  Now she
can't say anything cause she does it too!  Problem solved! 


Regards,

 

Alan

 

Go Chicago Bears in 2013!

 

Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!
Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.

 

Please click on: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  I often add files so check back regularly!

 

The albums in Technics  format formerly on my website are still
available upon request.  Thanks for listening!

- Original Message - 

From: Kimmie   

To: viphone@googlegroups.com 

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 12:17 PM

Subject: RE: no voiceover

 

I got the first part of your message, but where can I find where it says
change volume with button? I used to have mine on mute, but well I forgot to
take it off, and missed some calls.

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Alan Paganelli
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 7:12 a.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: no voiceover

 

If you take the volume out of the rotor, you won't have that to deal with.
I use to have issues with that and then I found in the settings, change
volume with buttons and disabled it.  Then all the up/down buttons on your
iPhone only control the master volume instead.  With change with buttons
turned on, you can get yourself into all kinds of trouble.  For example,
that clicking sound you hear.  When your moving your finger around and no
text is there and you then use the up or down volume controls on the side of
your iPhone, you'll adjust the sound of those clicks because they are what
has focus at the time.  So then you move on to something else and there you
are wondering why your iPhone no longer makes that clicking sound.
Sometimes, I don't want to hear that and I found that if I turn off the mute
switch, my iPhone quits making that clicking sound which is useful for when
I'm on the phone and it's saying press 3 for this and 4 for that and 5 to
maybe speak to a live person if we can find one.

 

HTH


Regards,

 

Alan

 

Go Chicago Bears in 2013!

 

Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!
Move out.  Get

RE: no voiceover

[Kimmie]

I did the reset, and oh man I had a hell of a time remembering what was set
where, and how, and goodness knows what.  When I did my first reset, I
managed to put everything in the way I had it before, but some of the
proununciations was wrong, so I did another reset, and managed to get it
right. How! I don't know. 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Alan Paganelli
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 3:32 p.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: no voiceover

 

I would suggest following the instructions I gave to see if you some how
have "change with buttons" turned on.  It would explain the weird things you
described.  As I said in my message, the button is a toggle and it will
announce it's status as either on or off.  I recommend it be off but before
you do that if it got turned on to adjust your volume settings before
turning "change with buttons" off or alternatively, you could go into
settings, general, reset, and choose "reset all settings"  This will restore
your phone to the factory defaults.  Sadly enough you would then have to
change many of your settings to the way you like them which would be in my
opinion like using a pile driver to push in a thumb tack so the best way in
my opinion would be to adjust your volume settings before you turn off
"change settings with buttons" first.


Regards,

 

Alan

 

Go Chicago Bears in 2013!

 

Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!
Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.

 

Please click on: 
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  The albums in Technics  format formerly on my
website are still available upon request.  Thanks for listening!

- Original Message - 

From: Kimmie   

To: viphone@googlegroups.com 

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 7:51 PM

Subject: RE: no voiceover

 

Wow! Thanks for the info.  I'll keep that.  I have a problem with some times
when I pick up my iphone, and somehow I've touched something, and next thing
it says speech off, well first up I tapped, slapped, swiped, slid, and
everything else you care to name, but it took ages for the speech to come
back on again, so I triple clicked and turned voice over on again, but is
there an easier way? I don't mind doing the triple click, but why is it so
easy to touch the screen, and speech goes off, without you 

Knowing what part of the screen that caused it to say speech off. 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Alan Paganelli
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 8:00 a.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: no voiceover

 

To turn on or to turn off "change with buttons" on your iPhone, do the
following.

 

1 Open settings.

2Go to and open "Sounds"

3 Flick right with 1 finger until you get to the toggle, "Change with
buttons"  Again, this is a toggle.  Double tap it with 1 finger to toggle on
and off.  When it's off, the up/down buttons on the side of your iPhone only
control the master volume.  So, you can try it either way and live with it
awhile either way and see which one you like better.  When I first got my
iPhone over 2 years ago, I had set it to change with buttons because
somebody told me it was easier for the blind to use that way.  Not knowing
the difference and this being my first iPhone, I did as instructed.  I too
experienced problems with things being turned down or up and then not
knowing to change it and wound up spending more time being frustrated then
anything else.  I by then had forgotten about "change with buttons"  By
accident around a year or so ago I came across it again and thought, change
what?  Then I heard the voice over tip and turned it off.  No more problems
with strange volume changes.  So you can turn down the master volume at
night so you can hear your phone and not wake up the rest of the house!  I
did find a way to fix that though.  I bought an iPhone for my wife!  Now she
can't say anything cause she does it too!  Problem solved! 


Regards,

 

Alan

 

Go Chicago Bears in 2013!

 

Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!
Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.

 

Please click on: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  I often add files so check back regularly!

 

The albums in Technics  format formerly on my website are still
available upon request.  Thanks for listening!

- Original Message - 

From: Kimmie   

To: viphone@googlegroups.com 

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 12:17 PM

Subject: RE: no voiceover

 

I got the first part of your message, but where can I find where it says
change volume with button? I used to have mine on mu

Re: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

[RobH!]

Can't have more than 4 buttons to things,   but some have put a folder in 
there with a couple good things in the folder; I'm tempted to try that, but 
haven't yet.  Someone can comment more about that hopefully.
Probably have to set up the folder first on the last page,  then move the 
one item out, put it in said folder, then move the folder into the vacant 
space.

Rh.
- Original Message - 
From: "jim" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock


Hi Folks,

The IPhone apps dock at the bottom of the screen, is it possible to have 
more than 4 apps in there?  I already have my 4 there, but it would be 
really nice to be able to have one more, and as much as I have tried, the 
fith one will not fit.  Is there any way of doing this?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Kind regards.
Jim.

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Help With Number Of Apps In Screen Dock

[jim]

Hi Folks,

The IPhone apps dock at the bottom of the screen, is it possible to have more 
than 4 apps in there?  I already have my 4 there, but it would be really nice 
to be able to have one more, and as much as I have tried, the fith one will not 
fit.  Is there any way of doing this?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Kind regards.
Jim.

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Re: Unlocked iPhone!

[RobH!]

eBay?
- Original Message - 
From: "Jose Lomeli" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 1:02 AM
Subject: Unlocked iPhone!


Hello; Listers, where can I find and unlocked iPhone from AT&T? Thanks
in advance!

Sent from my iPod

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RE: Can't post to list

[Lois Butterfield]

Hi Joseph,

Your message made it to the list this time.  Maybe you just aren't seeing
your own messages?

Lois


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Joseph FreeTech
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 5:05 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Can't post to list

Hi Kara,

I'm a list member on the VIPhone members list. I see that you are a
moderator, so I concluded you are the person to contact about this
problem. (Smile).

I can't seem to post to the VIPhone list. I've sent about 3 or 4
messages within the last week and have not seen it arrive on the list.
About 2 days ago I sent a message using one of the links at the bottom
of each email message that arrives on the list, but no one from
moderators group has replied to my request for help. I don't know what
is going on so thought I would ask you for help. Please let me know if
there is something wrong on my end, but I am receiving messages just
fine, I just can't post. I know new members are placed on some sort of
restriction, so it might just be that I'm still on that restriction.
Thanks.

Joseph

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Can't post to list

[Joseph FreeTech]

Hi Kara,

I'm a list member on the VIPhone members list. I see that you are a
moderator, so I concluded you are the person to contact about this
problem. (Smile).

I can't seem to post to the VIPhone list. I've sent about 3 or 4
messages within the last week and have not seen it arrive on the list.
About 2 days ago I sent a message using one of the links at the bottom
of each email message that arrives on the list, but no one from
moderators group has replied to my request for help. I don't know what
is going on so thought I would ask you for help. Please let me know if
there is something wrong on my end, but I am receiving messages just
fine, I just can't post. I know new members are placed on some sort of
restriction, so it might just be that I'm still on that restriction.
Thanks.

Joseph

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RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Lois Butterfield]

Apple might have a refund policy based on time.  I purchased a version of
Navigon that I realized afterward wasn't what I wanted.  Within 3 minutes, I
wrote and requested a refund because I had mistakenly purchased it.  I
received an immediate response that said I would receive a refund, which I
in fact did get soon after.  I don't think they cared about the reason.  

 

Obviously, this is not the same thing, but I wonder if someone tried out the
app within the first 5 minutes of purchase, if a refund would be forthcoming
from Apple.

 

I know that I download things, and then don't get to try them out for quite
a while.  If you tried it right away, and got this negative reaction, that's
another story entirely.

 

I think that writing to Apple about it is a great idea, but I think that the
refund process would be easier all around if it happened within 15 minutes
of purchase, not days or weeks afterward.

 

Lois

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 4:50 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

 

Hi Cara,

 

I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this
they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the hassle.
I must say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return policy Google
apparently offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do something like
that is not just a completely different ball game, it's a different sport!

 

If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could request
proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could limit
refunds to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given their
computers they could easily track this on somebody's Apple Id.

 

If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as an
example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, i.e.
order number and all that, as well as the response I received.

It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand
the situation, but on another level she apparently didn't. She summarized my
request by saying I "inadvertently " purchased some apps which of course is
not at all the case and not what I said.

Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really
didn't get it despite the fact that she said it was an "appropriate
exception" and they would refund me the money which still has not happened:

 

From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM
To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com'
Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps

 

Hello,

 

My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for tracking
packages in order to find out which one offered the best features. I tried a
couple more, but they had free Lite versions which allowed me to try them
before buying the full version.

 

I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and
unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps have
accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. I wrote
to the developers, but have not received any reply as to whether they might
consider making improvements so the apps would work with Voiceover. I used
iTunes credit to pay for the paid apps and was wondering if it was possible
to receive a refund since I have already deleted the apps from my phone.

 

-Original Message-
From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:50 PM
To: siegh...@hotmail.ca
Subject: Re: Voiceover inaccessible apps; Follow-up: 280679929

 

Dear Sieghard,

 

Greetings from iTunes Store Customer Support. My name is Alishia and I am
happy to assist you today.

 

I understand that you inadvertently purchased some apps from the App Store
and you would like to receive a refund for the purchase. I know how
important it is to have the issue resolved. I assure you of assistance.

 

Sieghard, after reviewing the circumstances of your case, we determined that
issuing you a refund for the purchase of "Apps" is an appropriate exception
to the iTunes Store Terms and Conditions, which state that all sales are
final. 

 

You will see 6.70 CAD added to your store credit balance within 48 hours.
You may need to sign out of the iTunes Store and then sign back in before
you see the credit in your account. 

 

The iTunes Store provides a warning message that asks if you are sure that
you want to buy an item. This warning can be turned off. If you would like
to make sure that this warning is on, you can reset the warnings in the
iTunes Store by following the instructions in this article:

 

Resetting iTunes Store warnings

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1734

 

Additionally, you can make modifications on certain devices that will
prevent them from making purchases:

 

iPhone, iPad, and iPo

RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hi Cara,

 

I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this
they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the hassle.
I must say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return policy Google
apparently offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do something like
that is not just a completely different ball game, it's a different sport!

 

If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could request
proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could limit
refunds to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given their
computers they could easily track this on somebody's Apple Id.

 

If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as an
example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, i.e.
order number and all that, as well as the response I received.

It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand
the situation, but on another level she apparently didn't. She summarized my
request by saying I "inadvertently " purchased some apps which of course is
not at all the case and not what I said.

Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really
didn't get it despite the fact that she said it was an "appropriate
exception" and they would refund me the money which still has not happened:

 

From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM
To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com'
Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps

 

Hello,

 

My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for tracking
packages in order to find out which one offered the best features. I tried a
couple more, but they had free Lite versions which allowed me to try them
before buying the full version.

 

I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and
unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps have
accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. I wrote
to the developers, but have not received any reply as to whether they might
consider making improvements so the apps would work with Voiceover. I used
iTunes credit to pay for the paid apps and was wondering if it was possible
to receive a refund since I have already deleted the apps from my phone.

 

-Original Message-
From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:50 PM
To: siegh...@hotmail.ca
Subject: Re: Voiceover inaccessible apps; Follow-up: 280679929

 

Dear Sieghard,

 

Greetings from iTunes Store Customer Support. My name is Alishia and I am
happy to assist you today.

 

I understand that you inadvertently purchased some apps from the App Store
and you would like to receive a refund for the purchase. I know how
important it is to have the issue resolved. I assure you of assistance.

 

Sieghard, after reviewing the circumstances of your case, we determined that
issuing you a refund for the purchase of "Apps" is an appropriate exception
to the iTunes Store Terms and Conditions, which state that all sales are
final. 

 

You will see 6.70 CAD added to your store credit balance within 48 hours.
You may need to sign out of the iTunes Store and then sign back in before
you see the credit in your account. 

 

The iTunes Store provides a warning message that asks if you are sure that
you want to buy an item. This warning can be turned off. If you would like
to make sure that this warning is on, you can reset the warnings in the
iTunes Store by following the instructions in this article:

 

Resetting iTunes Store warnings

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1734

 

Additionally, you can make modifications on certain devices that will
prevent them from making purchases:

 

iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch: Understanding Restrictions

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4213

 

I hope the information provided would resolve your issue.

 

Sieghard, if you have any additional questions, please let me know and I
will be happy to assist you further. Thank you for being a valued member of
iTunes family.

 

Have a nice day!

 

Sincerely,

 

Alishia

iTunes Store Customer Support

http://www.apple.com/support/itunes/ww/

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For mor

Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Cara Quinn]

Hello Arnold,

thanks so much for your note.

I'm personally not willing to give into the worry of the least common 
denominator principle. If anything, what we've seen so far in the case of this 
community when it comes to asking for refunds for apps, is that people have 
been more than upstanding, patient and forgiving. -to a fault if I may be so 
bold. If I may also say so, this is not always the same in other circles of 
blind / visually impaired users of technology I've encountered, so it honestly 
warms my heart to say what I have just said about people being upstanding here. 
:)

Because of this, I still believe it is reasonable to ask for a policy for 
refunds if we are not given the opportunity to know ahead of time whether an 
app is usable with VO.

If we can get a descriptive blurb, then a refund would simply depend on what 
such a blurb says. I.E. if an app's main advertised features were not 
accessible with VoiceOver and a customer chose to purchase said app anyway, 
they would not be eligible for a refund. Simple as that… :)

Regardless of the feelings on either side of this issue, I feel this does need 
to be brought up in a real and meaningful way. It's best we don't inadvertently 
sweep this one under the rug because we may not have a good answer for this 
yet. Better for this to be discussed and refined at length if necessary.

Thanks so much for your note!

Smiles,

Cara :)
On Aug 3, 2013, at 1:02 AM, Arnold Schmidt  wrote:

As I state in another message, I would be much more willing to support a 
general refund policy, such as Google has, or at least use to have, rather than 
an it won't work with VoiceOver policy.  That is just too open to abuse.   
Besides, a general refund policy would be an even better way to let developers 
know if people didn't like their app, a bunch of them all requested refunds.   
It might even improve accessibility. 
 
Arnold Schmidt
- Original Message -
From: Cara Quinn
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

Sieghard and All,

Let me encourage you and actually everyone on this list to write Apple 
Accessibility to request that there be reasonable accommodation in place for 
VoiceOver users to receive app refunds in cases like Sieghard's. I'd also 
suggest that Sieghard's note be attached to your own.

I believe this issue needs to be brought into the forefront in a positive and 
decisive way. We are almost 2000 people on this list and this is a very good 
opportunity to make this point heard.

This discussion has come up before of being alerted of VO accessibility ahead 
of time in the App Store and though we've not come to a set conclusion on the 
best way to do this, having some indication that an app has been found to be 
accessible to some degree with VoiceOver before we purchase it is a completely 
reasonable request. If this is not possible, then it is more than reasonable to 
ask for refunds if we cannot use an app which is not accessible to us with the 
available Apple universal access paradigm.

the email address for Apple Accessibility is:

accessibil...@apple.com

These are very caring people so please keep this in mind when you write. I've 
known some of them personally. They want to help though there may not be a 
clear way of making this happen just yet. Just let them know this is important 
though. Make your voice heard in a friendly way. they will listen to you even 
if they do not know the best answer yet. :)

Thanks All, for your time.

Sincerely,

Cara :)
On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:

Hello List,
 
Requesting a refund for an app which turns out not to work with Voiceover has 
come up a few times and the iTunes Store support email has been posted in 
connection with that. So I thought I post my recent experience with contacting 
iTunes Store support via their email.
 
I had bought a couple of package tracking apps in order to find out which one I 
liked best. I have been using Track This which is awesome, but I am in Canada 
and for some reason they don’t support Purolator and CanPar which are both 
major carriers here. I contacted Track This support twice and never received a 
reply.
 
Anyhow, back to iTunes Store support. I provided all the information including 
order numbers, purchase date, my Apple Id etc. I explained how I really enjoyed 
my iPhone and the fantastic accessibility, but that unfortunately these two 
apps I purchased were not voiceover friendly and there was no Light version 
offered which I could have tried first. I also mentioned that I contacted both 
developers and after almost a week had not received a reply. In short, I was 
friendly, explained everything and even waited to see if the developers would 
reply to see if they were willing to make Voiceover improvements.
 
I received a prompt reply in which the agent explained that all app sales are 
final, but that given the situ

Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Arnold Schmidt]

I do not know if they still do this, but Google use to have a policy that if 
you bought an app for the android phone, you had a short time, I think it 
was 15 minutes , to try it.  I don't remember if you only needed to 
uninstall it , or perhaps you had to request a refund within that period of 
time, but you could get a refund for it if you didn't like it.  Perhaps 
Apple needs to implement such a policy.  Saying that a refund is being 
requested because a given app won't work with VoiceOver is much too open to 
abuse.  Everybody would start requesting refunds, declaring that even if an 
app was accessible with VoiceOver, they themselves couldn't make it work, 
even if they were sighted and had never used VoiceOver in their life.


Arnold Schmidt
- Original Message - 
From: "Joanne Chua" 

To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


Hi,

First at all, let me clarify that what i'm about to say is purely come from 
my own views, it is not particularly heading towards individuals, or a group 
of people.


This stuff about Apple not refunding credits for apps is ones again a hot 
topic on this list.


However, is that really Apple's fault if they not refunding the credit for 
the apps, just because it have some accessibilities issue, or, we, as 
consumer simply asking too much?


After all, in Apple purchase T.O.C, there's no such statement stated that 
every apps need to be accessible, should be accessible.


It is up to us, as consumer to make the decision before purchase?

Have we ever thought of returning a window machine in the pass because they 
not accessible? Have we  ever thought of asking Micro not so Soft to refund 
$$$ that we pay for their window OS?


I'm a very strong advicate of accessibility, but i also believe that there's 
a belance in such.


I do agree with some of the listers, perhaps, They could include an 
accessibility category and have other sub-cat under the category.  If they 
do, for the interest of Apple and the developers, i urge Apple to put 
something about there's a risk for consumer to purchase apps beyond the 
accessibility category to be inaccessible. If so, it is the consumer 
responsibilities to contact the developer, and no refund will be consider on 
the condition that the app is not accessible.Joanne Shuang Chua

Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad

On 03/08/2013, at 4:21, Nimit Gmail  wrote:


Hello Sieghard,
That's surely not something most people would expect from apple.  Talking 
to another representativve is always a good idea.  Someone I knew had a 
similar experience and they actually called apple and reported it.  I 
didn't know what happened next as I really didn't find it that important 
then.  They did, however, ended up getting their refund, that I know for 
sure.  I know they didn't give up and kept fighting.  No, please!  I am 
not trying to tell you to fight with apple.  All I am saying that if I 
were you, I would let apple know that this kind of situation happen and 
the customer service provided is not the best.  Maybe, just drop a lime . 
Now, it is likely, that they might not directly not fix your refund issue, 
but at least, they know that happens and they need to support us by making 
their customer service a little better.  No, I am not saying that apple is 
not good with cust service, but sometimes,they just need to make their 
workers more aware of accessibility?  I hope you somehow get it fixed. 
It's a shame...  Well, good luck.  As somebody said, droping a line to 
accessibility team in apple might be a good idea.  Good day, everyone.


Sent from my iPad

On Aug 2, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:


Hi Ben and Kirsten,

Thanks, Ben, I think letting accessibil...@apple.com know about this is a
good idea. In large companies like Apple different departments and teams
often fight with each other to get things done and hopefully one day 
there

will be a mandatory statement about accessibility in the app description.

Thanks, also, Kirsten for your message. I actually am talking to another
iTunes Store Support person regarding an issue I had redeeming one of the
$50 gift cards I purchased on Monday on a promo from 7 11. One f the 
cards
said it couldn't be redeemed because it was inproperly activated so I 
wrote
to Apple. Consequently I went back to the 7 11 where I bought the card 
and

it turned out they forgot to do whatever hey do to activate the card and
they fixed it. However, I also received a reply from iTunes Store support
and I replied to this agent and explained my dealings with the other one 
and

I'll let you all know what my experience is this time.

I am not all that worried about the 6 Bucks I spend on those 2 apps, I
bought apps before which didn't turn out to be all that Voiceover 
friendly,

but if an app is 99 Cents or even a Dollar 99 I usually can't be bothered
and I only requested the refund this time bec

Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Arnold Schmidt]

As I state in another message, I would be much more willing to support a 
general refund policy, such as Google has, or at least use to have, rather than 
an it won't work with VoiceOver policy.  That is just too open to abuse.   
Besides, a general refund policy would be an even better way to let developers 
know if people didn't like their app, a bunch of them all requested refunds.   
It might even improve accessibility.  

Arnold Schmidt
  - Original Message - 
  From: Cara Quinn 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 2:58 AM
  Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund


  Sieghard and All,


  Let me encourage you and actually everyone on this list to write Apple 
Accessibility to request that there be reasonable accommodation in place for 
VoiceOver users to receive app refunds in cases like Sieghard's. I'd also 
suggest that Sieghard's note be attached to your own.


  I believe this issue needs to be brought into the forefront in a positive and 
decisive way. We are almost 2000 people on this list and this is a very good 
opportunity to make this point heard.


  This discussion has come up before of being alerted of VO accessibility ahead 
of time in the App Store and though we've not come to a set conclusion on the 
best way to do this, having some indication that an app has been found to be 
accessible to some degree with VoiceOver before we purchase it is a completely 
reasonable request. If this is not possible, then it is more than reasonable to 
ask for refunds if we cannot use an app which is not accessible to us with the 
available Apple universal access paradigm.


  the email address for Apple Accessibility is:


  accessibil...@apple.com


  These are very caring people so please keep this in mind when you write. I've 
known some of them personally. They want to help though there may not be a 
clear way of making this happen just yet. Just let them know this is important 
though. Make your voice heard in a friendly way. they will listen to you even 
if they do not know the best answer yet. :)


  Thanks All, for your time.


  Sincerely,


  Cara :)
  On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:


  Hello List,

  Requesting a refund for an app which turns out not to work with Voiceover has 
come up a few times and the iTunes Store support email has been posted in 
connection with that. So I thought I post my recent experience with contacting 
iTunes Store support via their email.

  I had bought a couple of package tracking apps in order to find out which one 
I liked best. I have been using Track This which is awesome, but I am in Canada 
and for some reason they don’t support Purolator and CanPar which are both 
major carriers here. I contacted Track This support twice and never received a 
reply.

  Anyhow, back to iTunes Store support. I provided all the information 
including order numbers, purchase date, my Apple Id etc. I explained how I 
really enjoyed my iPhone and the fantastic accessibility, but that 
unfortunately these two apps I purchased were not voiceover friendly and there 
was no Light version offered which I could have tried first. I also mentioned 
that I contacted both developers and after almost a week had not received a 
reply. In short, I was friendly, explained everything and even waited to see if 
the developers would reply to see if they were willing to make Voiceover 
improvements.

  I received a prompt reply in which the agent explained that all app sales are 
final, but that given the situation they would refund me the $6.72 or whatever 
it was for the 2 apps. However, she also continued to give me links as to their 
terms and conditions and said that this was a one-time curtocy and that in the 
future they could not provide any more refunds and that it was up to me to make 
sure I didn’t turn on one-click ordering and accidently purchase apps or read 
the app description to be sure it was what I wanted. It was strange because all 
of this gave me the impression this person did not at all get the point about 
Voiceover and all that, but on the other hand she said they would give me a 
refund given the situation. According to what she said I should see the refund 
back on my account within 48 hours and since both apps were purchased using 
store credit it would come back as store credit. This is now 2 weeks ago and I 
replied twice to the initial message to explain that I still had not received 
the credit and I am getting no more replies.

  I guess what I want to say here is that those who have done this and received 
refunds are lucky, but it appears one should definitely not count on getting a 
refund even if an app turns out not to work with Voiceover. I certainly will 
not buy an app again thinking I might as well try it because if it doesn’t work 
I can always ask for a refund.


  Regards,
  Sieghard



  -- 
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the "

Re: no voiceover

[Arnold Schmidt]

A three-finger double tap turns speech on and off, a three-finger triple tap 
turns screen curtain on and off.  I wish it were the other way around.  I can't 
recall a specific example at the moment, but I have had speech turn off when I 
was doing something very different from a three-finger double tap, it just 
interpreted what I was doing as such.  If it were a three-finger triple tap to 
turn speech on and off, perhaps it wouldn't be so quick to think I was turning 
speech off.  

Arnold Schmidt 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kimmie 
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:51 PM
  Subject: RE: no voiceover


  Wow! Thanks for the info.  I'll keep that.  I have a problem with some times 
when I pick up my iphone, and somehow I've touched something, and next thing it 
says speech off, well first up I tapped, slapped, swiped, slid, and everything 
else you care to name, but it took ages for the speech to come back on again, 
so I triple clicked and turned voice over on again, but is there an easier way? 
I don't mind doing the triple click, but why is it so easy to touch the screen, 
and speech goes off, without you 

  Knowing what part of the screen that caused it to say speech off. 

  From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Alan Paganelli
  Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 8:00 a.m.
  To: viphone@googlegroups.com
  Subject: Re: no voiceover

   

  To turn on or to turn off "change with buttons" on your iPhone, do the 
following.

   

  1 Open settings.

  2Go to and open "Sounds"

  3 Flick right with 1 finger until you get to the toggle, "Change with 
buttons"  Again, this is a toggle.  Double tap it with 1 finger to toggle on 
and off.  When it's off, the up/down buttons on the side of your iPhone only 
control the master volume.  So, you can try it either way and live with it 
awhile either way and see which one you like better.  When I first got my 
iPhone over 2 years ago, I had set it to change with buttons because somebody 
told me it was easier for the blind to use that way.  Not knowing the 
difference and this being my first iPhone, I did as instructed.  I too 
experienced problems with things being turned down or up and then not knowing 
to change it and wound up spending more time being frustrated then anything 
else.  I by then had forgotten about "change with buttons"  By accident around 
a year or so ago I came across it again and thought, change what?  Then I heard 
the voice over tip and turned it off.  No more problems with strange volume 
changes.  So you can turn down the master volume at night so you can hear your 
phone and not wake up the rest of the house!  I did find a way to fix that 
though.  I bought an iPhone for my wife!  Now she can't say anything cause she 
does it too!  Problem solved! 


  Regards,

   

  Alan

   

  Go Chicago Bears in 2013!

   

  Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?  Act now!  
Move out.  Get a job.  Pay your bills wile you still know everything.

   

  Please click on: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/
  There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played on
  the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard.  I often add files so check back regularly!

   

  The albums in Technics  format formerly on my website are still
  available upon request.  Thanks for listening!

- Original Message - 

From: Kimmie 

To: viphone@googlegroups.com 

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 12:17 PM

Subject: RE: no voiceover

 

I got the first part of your message, but where can I find where it says 
change volume with button? I used to have mine on mute, but well I forgot to 
take it off, and missed some calls.

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf 
Of Alan Paganelli
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013 7:12 a.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: no voiceover

 

If you take the volume out of the rotor, you won't have that to deal with.  
I use to have issues with that and then I found in the settings, change volume 
with buttons and disabled it.  Then all the up/down buttons on your iPhone only 
control the master volume instead.  With change with buttons turned on, you can 
get yourself into all kinds of trouble.  For example, that clicking sound you 
hear.  When your moving your finger around and no text is there and you then 
use the up or down volume controls on the side of your iPhone, you'll adjust 
the sound of those clicks because they are what has focus at the time.  So then 
you move on to something else and there you are wondering why your iPhone no 
longer makes that clicking sound.  Sometimes, I don't want to hear that and I 
found that if I turn off the mute switch, my iPhone quits making that clicking 
sound which is useful for when I'm on the phone and it's saying press 3 for 
this and 4 for that and 5 to maybe speak to a live pe

Re: Deleting contacts

[RobH!]

Edit?   You have to go into the details for the contact,  then use the 
4finger tap at the bottom to get to the end;  Delete Contact is the very 
last button.

Hth, Rh.
- Original Message - 
From: "Reese" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 6:39 PM
Subject: Deleting contacts


Hi list:

Not sure why Apple has made this feature so difficult for anyone however,
they have.  So I'm in the middle of teaching a class on the iPhone and a
student wants' to know, how do you delete someone from contacts?  Not just
the number the whole contact.  Thanks!

Reese

Now playing the best in R&B, Blues and Soft rock.  Its the new Peachtree
Radio FM.
http://www.peachtreeradiofm.com

iBlink radio, TuneIn Radio search for Peachtree Radio.

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RE: Can't send to this group without sight

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hi Kevin,

I agree with Ariana, reading this group and participating by email is a much
nicer, faster and less frustrating experience. I prefer to do this on a
computer, since I do write a fair amount on here and that is of course still
much faster pon my computer than even with a Bluetooth keyboard on the
iPhone.

I don't want to say that you have to use email, but it's so easy nowadays to
set up a gmail or Outlook.com account which you can use strictly for Viphone
and maybe other groups you like to participate in. This way the mail goes
into a separate Inbox and doesn't interfere at all with your normal mail.
I used to subscribe to digest messages, but I have since discovered that
subscribing to individual messages gives me more control and is actually
faster. I have conversation view turned on so when I arrow through the list
of messages I can simply delete those topics I am not interested in, I can
open messages I think I want to check out and if it's something I want to
reply to I just have to do a Control+R, type my message and press
Control+Enter to send it. Writing a new message is just as easy since as
soon as I type the first 2 or 3 letters of "Viphone" when I am in the To
field, the list address auto completes.

If you don't have time to read you can just do a Control+A in whatever email
client you are using, Outlook is my choice, and press delete. 


Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Arianna
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:02 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can't send to this group without sight

Just out of curiosity, why not use the Mail app on the iPhone? Just a
thought. I do, and I love it.


Thanks,
Ari

On Aug 2, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Kevin Gibbs  wrote:

> Guys, I'm not talking about using the Mail app. I'm talking about posting
to this group from the web.  When I read through stuff on the web and wish
to respond, or I decide to post something fresh while reading this board on
the web, I can't get VO to read the compose or Reply buttons while viewing
this, or any other Google Group in Safari on the iPhone. Let's see if that
clarifies things. 
> Thanks, 
> KEVIN 
> 
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Attention List -was- Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund

[Cara Quinn]

Hi All, am re-posting this with a different subject line so it stands out.

Also, if someone does not beat me to it, I'll set up a petition this weekend to 
bring this issue to the forefront.

Thanks All, my note is below.

Cara :)
---
Sieghard and All,

Let me encourage you and actually everyone on this list to write Apple 
Accessibility to request that there be reasonable accommodation in place for 
VoiceOver users to receive app refunds in cases like Sieghard's. I'd also 
suggest that Sieghard's note be attached to your own.

I believe this issue needs to be brought into the forefront in a positive and 
decisive way. We are almost 2000 people on this list and this is a very good 
opportunity to make this point heard.

This discussion has come up before of being alerted of VO accessibility ahead 
of time in the App Store and though we've not come to a set conclusion on the 
best way to do this, having some indication that an app has been found to be 
accessible to some degree with VoiceOver before we purchase it is a completely 
reasonable request. If this is not possible, then it is more than reasonable to 
ask for refunds if we cannot use an app which is not accessible to us with the 
available Apple universal access paradigm.

the email address for Apple Accessibility is:

accessibil...@apple.com

These are very caring people so please keep this in mind when you write. I've 
known some of them personally. They want to help though there may not be a 
clear way of making this happen just yet. Just let them know this is important 
though. Make your voice heard in a friendly way. they will listen to you even 
if they do not know the best answer yet. :)

Thanks All, for your time.

Sincerely,

Cara :)
On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:

Hello List,
 
Requesting a refund for an app which turns out not to work with Voiceover has 
come up a few times and the iTunes Store support email has been posted in 
connection with that. So I thought I post my recent experience with contacting 
iTunes Store support via their email.
 
I had bought a couple of package tracking apps in order to find out which one I 
liked best. I have been using Track This which is awesome, but I am in Canada 
and for some reason they don’t support Purolator and CanPar which are both 
major carriers here. I contacted Track This support twice and never received a 
reply.
 
Anyhow, back to iTunes Store support. I provided all the information including 
order numbers, purchase date, my Apple Id etc. I explained how I really enjoyed 
my iPhone and the fantastic accessibility, but that unfortunately these two 
apps I purchased were not voiceover friendly and there was no Light version 
offered which I could have tried first. I also mentioned that I contacted both 
developers and after almost a week had not received a reply. In short, I was 
friendly, explained everything and even waited to see if the developers would 
reply to see if they were willing to make Voiceover improvements.
 
I received a prompt reply in which the agent explained that all app sales are 
final, but that given the situation they would refund me the $6.72 or whatever 
it was for the 2 apps. However, she also continued to give me links as to their 
terms and conditions and said that this was a one-time curtocy and that in the 
future they could not provide any more refunds and that it was up to me to make 
sure I didn’t turn on one-click ordering and accidently purchase apps or read 
the app description to be sure it was what I wanted. It was strange because all 
of this gave me the impression this person did not at all get the point about 
Voiceover and all that, but on the other hand she said they would give me a 
refund given the situation. According to what she said I should see the refund 
back on my account within 48 hours and since both apps were purchased using 
store credit it would come back as store credit. This is now 2 weeks ago and I 
replied twice to the initial message to explain that I still had not received 
the credit and I am getting no more replies.
 
I guess what I want to say here is that those who have done this and received 
refunds are lucky, but it appears one should definitely not count on getting a 
refund even if an app turns out not to work with Voiceover. I certainly will 
not buy an app again thinking I might as well try it because if it doesn’t work 
I can always ask for a refund.
 
 
Regards,
Sieghard
 

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