Re: [Vo]:questions on McKubre cells and AC component
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Ok so you can design a calorimeter to detect this particular endothermic reaction, however, if you don't know a-priori what type of endothermic reaction or what energy source is involved a standard calorimeter might fail to detect it. Harry Another potential problem is that a calorimeter designed to detect an exothermic reaction might prevent an unknown endothermic reaction which is a prerequisite for the exothermic reaction. A calorimeter cannot be designed for exothermic or endothermic reactions. If it can measure an increase in heat, it can measure a decrease with the same accuracy and precision. When a reaction produces heat and then stops producing it, the calorimeter always shows that decline. You always see the power fluctuating up and down; the calorimeter always measures in both directions equally well. With an endothermic reaction the decline goes below the starting point. That's the only difference. The calorimeter does not care about that. If the cell was storing up energy, you would see it for sure. Scott Little showed a beautiful example of this once. He put a rechargeable battery into a calorimeter and charged it up. There was a deficit comparing electricity to the rising temperature. Then he discharged the battery through a resister in the cell. All the lost energy came back. The balance was close to zero. - Jed Was the temperature of the water in the calorimeter rising during charging? Harry
[Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat
From the wikipedia page on Negative Luminescence *((My thoughts are in double brackets))* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_luminescence Negative luminescence is a physical phenomenon by which an electronic device emits less thermal radiation when an electric current is passed through it than it does in thermal equilibrium (current off). When viewed by a thermal camera, an operating negative luminescent device looks colder than its environment. *((Rossi's Hotcat is also an electronic device, but instead of appearing cool to an infrared camera as described above, maybe it has the capacity to appear cool to the eye but hot to an infrared camera.))* Negative luminescence is most readily observed in semiconductors. Incoming infrared radiation is absorbed in the material by the creation of an electron–hole pair. An electric field is used to remove the electrons and holes from the region before they have a chance to recombine and re-emit thermal radiation. This effect occurs most efficiently in regions of low charge carrier density. Negative luminescence has also been observed in semiconductors in orthogonal electric and magnetic fields. In this case, the junction of a diode is not necessary and the effect can be observed in bulk material. A term that has been applied to this type of negative luminescence is galvanomagnetic luminescence. Negative luminescence might appear to be a violation of Kirchhoff's law of thermal radiation. This is not true, as the law only applies in thermal equilibrium. Another term that has been used to describe negative luminescent devices is Emissivity switch, as an electric current changes the effective emissivity. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat
I have heard that the external wires glow because heat from inside the reactor travels down the wire by simple conduction But perhaps energy is actively pumped into the external wires through a process involving negative luminescence. Harry On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 11:42 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: This effect sounds like a form of heat pump. The energy is moved from one location to another. Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Oct 23, 2014 2:33 am Subject: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat From the wikipedia page on Negative Luminescence *((My thoughts are in double brackets))* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_luminescence Negative luminescence is a physical phenomenon by which an electronic device emits less thermal radiation when an electric current is passed through it than it does in thermal equilibrium (current off). When viewed by a thermal camera, an operating negative luminescent device looks colder than its environment. * ((Rossi's Hotcat is also an electronic device, but instead of appearing cool to an infrared camera as described above, maybe it has the capacity to appear cool to the eye but hot to an infrared camera.))* Negative luminescence is most readily observed in semiconductors. Incoming infrared radiation is absorbed in the material by the creation of an electron–hole pair. An electric field is used to remove the electrons and holes from the region before they have a chance to recombine and re-emit thermal radiation. This effect occurs most efficiently in regions of low charge carrier density. Negative luminescence has also been observed in semiconductors in orthogonal electric and magnetic fields. In this case, the junction of a diode is not necessary and the effect can be observed in bulk material. A term that has been applied to this type of negative luminescence is galvanomagnetic luminescence. Negative luminescence might appear to be a violation of Kirchhoff's law of thermal radiation. This is not true, as the law only applies in thermal equilibrium. Another term that has been used to describe negative luminescent devices is Emissivity switch, as an electric current changes the effective emissivity. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: The assumption that there is any equilibrium in the reactor and, hence, black body radiation from it surface, is not correct IMO. Would that be equivalent to saying the surface cannot have a steady temperature? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:05 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: As Rossi has stated on many occasions, only the market can convince some folks of reality. Rossi could have chosen the academic route but he hasn't. He has *decided* the market will decide and for better or worse that is how it will be settled. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Given that Levi did know of this phenomenon – and that it could be helpful in the context of the experiment – all he needs to do is release the thermocouple data which may not support the highest gain, but probably is more accurate than the IR calculations (thermography). Better to salvage something than have everything perceived as wrong. Since Rossi wants the marketplace to rule on the reality of the Ecat, he and IH must have sought this test for patent reasons. At the moment it doesn't look like the report would support his IP claims. Harry
[Vo]:Three enlarged pictures of the hotcat.
MFMP placed enlarged three pictures of hotcat together for comparison. https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject/photos/pcb.850773311620036/850772991620068/?type=1theater In the report the bottom picture is contracted. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On surface the report contains as many imperfections as the alumina tube. ;-) harry On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be blackbody radiation. This monochromatic light would strike the alumina from the inside, heat it up, and then it would glow with white incandescence. There may be something very unusual about the cold fusion reaction inside (assuming there is one), but outside this is ordinary alumina material which does not have any ability to act like a laser. The authors have not responded to questions about issue. There may be a prosaic explanation. Perhaps that photo was taken before the cell heated up much. Let us wait to see what they say. I see no point to speculating about this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
A lack of caftsmanship is not necessarily antithetical to greatness. e.g. The first transistor was crudely assembled. http://cnx.org/resources/9120e4bccd37da6ab1c4ff90e8c498cc/firsttransistor.gif Harry On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:15 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On surface the report contains as many imperfections as the alumina tube. ;-) harry On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be blackbody radiation. This monochromatic light would strike the alumina from the inside, heat it up, and then it would glow with white incandescence. There may be something very unusual about the cold fusion reaction inside (assuming there is one), but outside this is ordinary alumina material which does not have any ability to act like a laser. The authors have not responded to questions about issue. There may be a prosaic explanation. Perhaps that photo was taken before the cell heated up much. Let us wait to see what they say. I see no point to speculating about this. - Jed
[Vo]:OT: The Man From Space
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBuWTP9SQLk Harry
Re: [Vo]: a DCE photon multiplier
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 6:30 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Humor aside, I think you might find this interesting: http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.6364 march 2013 test, p. 7 We note that the authors’ reasoning in the case of the thermal signature shows a tendency to quickly jump to interpretations and conclusions that support the extra‐ordinary claim, rather than to try to find more mundane explanations based on already known, standard physics. In this case, it seems that normal heat diffusion and transport is sufficient to explain the observation *(except for the perfect synchronization of electrical power with surface* *emitted power)*. The observed thermal time‐evolution gives no reason to resort to anomalous explanations. Harry
[Vo]:Bioluminescent/Glowing Deep Sea Creatures
Amazing Bioluminescent/Glowing Deep Sea Creatures https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD7thJVRKmQ Harry
[Vo]:Anticipate updates to report
Andrea Rossi October 20th, 2014 at 10:18 AM JCRenoir: The Professors told me that they are discussing the questions that merit an answer and that will answer to such questions by means of updates of the report published on http://www.elforsk.se/LENR-mattrapport-publicerad Their report will be then periodically updated with all the necessary answers. Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
In this context the temperature /T/ is known a-priori and the output power /q/ is known a posteriori , so emissivity /ε/ will adjust the ouptut power downwards if 0 /ε/ 1 q = ε σ T^4 A Harry On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: I'm a novice at this, (so please correct me if I'm wrong), but it didn't take long to find references to the idea that ideal black-body radiation color has to be modified by an emissivity factor. Emissivity is a modifying factor used in single color thermometry to achieve a correct temperature reading. Emissivity, or radiating efficiency, of most materials is function of surface condition, temperature and wavelength of measurement. http://www-eng.lbl.gov/~dw/projects/DW4229_LHC_detector_ analysis/calculations/emissivity2.pdf Likewise, aluminum oxide (alumina) has an emissivity coefficient of 0.8 according to this reference: http://www.gphysics.net/emissivity-coefficient and 0.75 according to this reference: http://www.coe.montana.edu/me/faculty/sofie/teaching/me360/ Pyrometry%20Emissivity%20Notes.pdf So, as I understand it the emissivity factor must be applied to an ideal black-box foruma as follows: The radiation energy per unit time from a *blackbody* is proportional to the fourth power of the absolute temperature http://www. engineeringtoolbox.com/temperature-d_291.html and can be expressed with *Stefan-Boltzmann Law * as /q = σ T^4 A/ /(1)/ /where/ /q/ /= heat transfer per unit time (W)/ /σ/ /= 5.6703 10^-8 (W/m^2 K^4 ) - *The* *Stefan-Boltzmann Constant*/ /T/ /= absolute temperature Kelvin (K)/ /A/ /= area of the emitting body (m^2 )/ For objects other than ideal blackbodies ('gray bodies') the *Stefan-Boltzmann Law* can be expressed as /q = ε σ T^4 A / /(2)/ /where/ /ε/ /= emissivity of the object (one for a black body)/ http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html So, doesn't the color chart have to be adjusted to accommodate the emissivity factor? That would put an observed value of 950C at around 1250C - 1350C, considering the conversion from C to K back to C. Craig On 10/20/2014 12:08 PM, Brad Lowe wrote: Rossi responds to the claim that the color of the alumina at 1300°C is white heat” by saying: stupidity, Alumina becomes white heat only when it melts at 2070°C and compare it to the glass is an elementary mistake http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=853cpage=14#comment-1013594 - Brad
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/20/2014 04:30 PM, H Veeder wrote: In this context the temperature /T/ is known a-priori and the output power /q/ is known a posteriori , so emissivity /ε/ will adjust the ouptut power downwards if 0 /ε/ 1 q = ε σ T^4 A Harry Right, but the internal temperature could be at 1300C but only glow at an apparent 950C; isn't that how emissivity would change the observed visible color from that seen on this color chart? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/ File:Incandescence_Color.jpg Craig /q/ is calculated from T which is the measured surface temperature. It is not necessary to know the internal temperature. A colour chart should only be used when you already know the cause of the illumination. Incandescent illumination is caused by heat. This is a New World so we should be careful how we classify the native life. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Maybe Jed is right. See this subjective colour temperature chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#Subjective_color_to_the_eye_of_a_black_body_thermal_radiator Contrast with this chart which are presumably the true temperature colours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#mediaviewer/File:Blackbody-colours-vertical.svg When does the eye percieve orange light as white light? Does it has something to do with the intensity of the organge light? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: But the question I've been trying to ask, isn't the color adjusted by the emissivity factor? So if the emissivity is 0.75, then doesn't this mean that the observed color is less than the actual temperature? As I have already reasoned the answer is no, because in this situation T is given (i.e.measured) and q is calculated so the emissivity factor will only adjust the output power downwards. If q was known, say by flow calorimetry, then the emissivity factor would bump T upwards. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. ok, I now see your point. It doesn't matter if the r eactor is also phosphorescent or fluorescent or some other escent, as long as the *surface* is heated to a temperature of ~1400C then the *surface* should appear white...according to this subjective colour temperature chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#Subjective_color_to_the_eye_of_a_black_body_thermal_radiator Compare it to this chart which I presume is the true colour temperature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#mediaviewer/File:Blackbody-colours-vertical.svg Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: H Veeder Ø Other examples of light emitting bodies which* do not* follow the incandescent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. Yup. And as far back as 1886 it was noticed that alumina, in one form, was phosphorescent. A paper by Crookes (the one of radiometer fame): On the Crimson Line of Phosphorescent Alumina. 1886. Today with the benefit of 130 years we realize that the alumina tested back then had slight chromium content – think ruby - and today the message is that an aluminum paste– such as applied to Inconel wires embedded in a alumina tube housing – containing trace chromium - can provide overwhelming phosphorescent red coloration… and thus the tube is not in keeping with an incandescent temperature determination. In short –this Levi report is miles away from being a scientific paper. The details of fabrication of the tube are hidden, and the reddish glow does not necessarily mean lower temperature if there is ruby phosphorescen ce in a paste or coating. If the surface temperature is 1400C then according to the textbooks, as Jed says, the surface should be glowing white. Other things could be happening too, but they don't alter the standard expectation. Either this incongruity is caused by a measurement error or something entirely new is happening. I've proposed other types of emissions but they don't address the issue of the missing white light. harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: But the question I've been trying to ask, isn't the color adjusted by the emissivity factor? So if the emissivity is 0.75, then doesn't this mean that the observed color is less than the actual temperature? Sorry, now I see your true question. (I was distracted by the formula you provided.) Based on the passage you cited it appears an emissivity correction would bump up the temperature. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Should the reactor radiate like a normal incandescent body of 1400C or does the reactor radiate according to some other rules? Jed (and Mizuno?) assume it behaves like a normal incandescent body of 1400C so it should glow white. Since it doesn't glow white they assume the output power estimate based on infrared light measurements is invalid. However, even if it were glowing white, the visible light contribution could be ignored and the power output could be (under)estimated from just the infrared light measurements. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:19 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I saw the photo of the block and of course it seems to be similar as well. I am not convinced that the casting that was treated for 12 hours and quickly removed had time to cool that much. I may be wrong, but the first reference I located showed roughly the same color as well. This also matched what was observed by the testers. I see evidence building up that what the testers saw might have been reasonable. Also, I recall that the sun is supposed to appear near white and it is far hotter than 1400 C. We need to locate an expert in this field to settle the question. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals. There is a picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours. I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C. Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
In the report they said they were unable to attach a thermocouple to the exterior of tube. They should have put the test on hold until they figured out how to do it. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 3:04 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: This is the question that I have been wrestling with for so long Harry. I may have found a method of getting to the real temperature value. The technique need a lot more calibration before it can be trusted. Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 3:00 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature Should the reactor radiate like a normal incandescent body of 1400C or does the reactor radiate according to some other rules? Jed (and Mizuno?) assume it behaves like a normal incandescent body of 1400C so it should glow white. Since it doesn't glow white they assume the output power estimate based on infrared light measurements is invalid. However, even if it were glowing white, the visible light contribution could be ignored and the power output could be (under)estimated from just the infrared light measurements. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:19 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I saw the photo of the block and of course it seems to be similar as well. I am not convinced that the casting that was treated for 12 hours and quickly removed had time to cool that much. I may be wrong, but the first reference I located showed roughly the same color as well. This also matched what was observed by the testers. I see evidence building up that what the testers saw might have been reasonable. Also, I recall that the sun is supposed to appear near white and it is far hotter than 1400 C. We need to locate an expert in this field to settle the question. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals. There is a picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours. I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C. Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg - Jed
[Vo]:MFMP on Lithium
From the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project facebook page: --- Is this the catalyst? As we reported in a previous Facebook post, we know for a fact that Pons and Fleischmann had a key Lithium compound in their lab, but that is not all the data points that have encouraged us to think that Lithium is important in apparent high-yield LENR. We also know that it was being proposed openly in 2001 alongside Ni+H and AL2O3. On December the 14th 2012, team member Bob Greenyer experienced something that has haunted him ever since... after making a presentation in Rome, announcing the MFMPs first seemingly positive result by Mathieu Valat with Celani wire in France: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-eKgEVY868list=UUEy09JW5XAd95JmknU1JOeQ https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DH-eKgEVY868%26list%3DUUEy09JW5XAd95JmknU1JOeQh=qAQF4uy3venc=AZNboU243icfPambK44v1N0-ZQypgpGtUGkmUMuUfdeAEVf1wG8zbKeOxQicDLiu8gh7gbIgU-SNf8ypY0bDDenZ8w3fB64feoRpOrDgbbbP2IJCZB1p-cBG_e86Hph9c2amf0nqNlmtHbqNAWLCrSrks=1 As Bob left the meeting room, just a few paces out of the door, a guy approached him quickly from behind and without introduction said something and then walked off. In Bob's own words: when I presented in Rome in December 2012, someone came up to me and gave me a nudge and a wink and said I should add an alkali metal, I said did he mean something like Lithium and he would neither confirm or deny. The man might have been from the military since the presentation was in a services facility. Moving to early 2014 Well before this report was published, Piantelli made an addition to his granted patent citing that Lithium was the best way to enhance the effect in a Ni+H thermally excited gas phase system. http://www.google.com/patents/US20140098917 http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fpatents%2FUS20140098917h=HAQFKYeBCenc=AZOdm4MsoU_CBjNS_sNzTQC_ZWdYymyDMittunqbXOwBk8yA6FapC_KJhyzO6v7uU4gn5Qpm-9yrZNlzoDiOXtTB23c9p-ae1kr9u7bwCiqfwRP3gCzFOINUQAgY1Xtg9_cQo-gjQYwGXNj0ML4bi0vrs=1 In light of the mysterious guy and the publication of Piantellis patent addition, the MFMP was inspired to look at previous experiments and it was noted that Quartz cell in the US did not produce any apparent excess heat, nor did SKINNERS cells that were in steel, when the Borosilicate glass used by Mathieu appeared to... could it be the Boron content that was critical, since Piantelli notes that Boron enhances the effect also - but to a lesser degree. Then we found out that Borosilicate can have Lithium Carbonate added - up to 5%!, was Celani or Mathieu using that type? http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Pyrex.html http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madehow.com%2FVolume-7%2FPyrex.htmlh=LAQFabtV4enc=AZOrmfulqyvZne4j6ZdSmFxUNtiABo5jUe8aSlX1K9bT_xky7CGv2O_QoQyvjD-0ucqQ9LgO3UmPvFs1lWQKgDP9V6tNm9s4Zxzs8cL2RTmpD4nbTAYMkKRgV2ONLjZKY9w9AF0q4NrynNAy5P5zSs9ss=1 Anyhow - that set us on a determined path to include Lithium compounds in future research, after we had first, fully tested without. Then we found that Celani was using Lepidolite - a mineral mica from a very old manufacturer - one of the main sources of Lithium - to support his wires in his cells. Commercial mica today generally comes from non lithium baring mica sources. This might have explained his slightly higher apparent excess. Then we found out that Celani was getting higher apparent excess by having fine borosilicate/mica strapped next to his wires. We were also aware of the chemo-nuclear work of Hideotsugo Ikegami and his use of Lithium. And Bob Higgins then noted Li2SO4 was an ingredient to the electrolyte in the Patterson cell to make the water conductive. Added weight came from an article written for e-cat world, Rick Allen which noted There are additional bits of information that point toward the possibility that lithium is utilized. One interesting fact is that .4% lithium was found in the used “charge” that Rossi supplied to Sven Kullander for analysis. In an unused sample, no lithium was present. There are two possibilities here. One is that the lithium was a transmutation product. The second is that the unused charge was never in a reactor so it did not contain lithium. I propose the hypothesis that the lithium is added separately to the nickel powder (perhaps by coating the walls of the reactor) and that when a high temperature is reached the lithium melts and mixes with the nickel powder. In current systems, there may be both lithium on the walls of the reactor and a tablet of lithium hydride. You can read the rest of the article here: http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/04/26/lithium-the-case-for-an-e-cat-catalyst-guest-post/
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
We need to enlarge our model space rather than limiting ourselves to one model that is inconsistent with the observations. Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. With this model of illumination the the output power estimates appear valid. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 4:11 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: In the report they said they were unable to attach a thermocouple to the exterior of tube. But there is one inside. I asked whether they have readings from it. - Jed
[Vo]:OT: Where are we?
Are you ok? 'cause this place can sometimes make people feel a bit... ...you know... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3bGYljQ5Uw Harry
Re: [Vo]:MFMP on Lithium
well done. harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: I must have produce 500 posts identifying an alkali metal as the Rossi secret catalyst and even better, I provided the theory behind that recommendation. Lithium is a simplistic conclusion to draw from the Rossi TPT results. snip
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Jed-- I hope you get an answer. This question has caused me to resist getting into a give and take about the camera data. The thermocouple must have been used to calibrate the camera at operating conditions, IF IT WERE WORKING. The lack of this obvious information suggests the T/C was not working properly. They either work on don't from my experience. The question being so simple puts them in a bind to answer. If it didn't work they should, say so. If it did work properly they should provide the data. Rossi claims there were millions of data points. It would nice to request that they publish their data base of all the raw data. It all can't be in the published document if there was as much as suggested by Rossi. However, he may have had some restrictions on the data they could publish to protect revealing the detailed operating conditions. The researchers doing the test would have access to the data as it was accumulated and would have used it to justify their conclusions, despite leaving room for skeptics to rail on. I start with the naive (trusting) assumption that everything the authors of the Lugano report say about the reactor is based on fact rather than guesswork, but they can't reveal why they know them to be factual because it might reveal important IP. Unfortunately, such a situation will stimulate the more distrustful skeptics to imagine incompetence and/or misdirection. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it. On the other hand the Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C - 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated. The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the surface temperature and output power. Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate assumption. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the incandascent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:27 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it. On the other hand the Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C - 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated. The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the surface temperature and output power. Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate assumption. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Many different types of Luminescence are listed here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminescence quote Luminescence is emission of light by a substance not resulting from heat; it is thus a form of cold body radiation. It can be caused by chemical reactions, electrical energy, subatomic motions, or stress on a crystal. This distinguishes luminescence fromincandescence, which is light emitted by a substance as a result of heating. Historically, radioactivity was thought of as a form of radio-luminescence, although it is today considered to be separate since it involves more than electromagnetic radiation. The term 'luminescence' was introduced in 1888 by Eilhard Wiedemann On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 1:16 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the incandascent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:27 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it. On the other hand the Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C - 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated. The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the surface temperature and output power. Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate assumption. Harry
Re: [Vo]:To Arms
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 2:25 AM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote: James, it's just so tiring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uai7M4RpoLU Let them continue to hallucinate; their typing is the only thing keeping the economy going while a new infrastructure is being built right under their noses! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no_elVGGgW8 Harry
Re: [Vo]:Hotcat melting miracle
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: The isotopic analyses are a little amazing, and, as far as I can tell, do not give indications of a gradient effect in the 6Li and 62Ni species. appendix 3 measured abundance in ash sample 6Li - 92.1% 7Li - 7.9% 62Ni - 98.7% appendix 4 measured abundance in ash sample 6Li - 57.5% 7Li - 42.5% 62Ni - 99.3% For me the lingo is hard to parse but if Robert Ellefson is correct then the numbers in appendix 3 are surface measurements and the numbers in appendix 4 are bulk measurements. Can you fake such a distribution by simply purchasing enriched samples? Harry Harry
Re: [Vo]:Hotcat melting miracle
Dave and Axil, On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: I can't believe that the independent science team could ever make a mistake that bad: measuring a reactor temperature that as actually at 700C as being 1400C. Ordinarily a surface at 1400C should glow visibly white but in this case the visible glow is red. If the power output is the same as that associated with a 1400C surface then the missing energy might be in the form of extra UV emissions. Harry On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: There was a directly observable miracle that showed unmelted nano structure on the surface of those nickel micro particles that should have melted at 1000C and yet where photographed after days of 1400C reactor operating temperatures. Those temperature differences are TOO LARGE to be due to poor experimental measurement or technique. Your imagery is vivid, but you've assumed that the experiment actually ran at 1400C. This is one of the questions that is up for debate. Misdirection is not yet established given what we know. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Hotcat melting miracle
Where are the neutrons? Must be a mistake. Where is the white glow? Must be another mistake. Harry
[Vo]:Macro-Micro cosmos
Poetic infusion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns4kEuz7G3E Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
_Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has colour temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared . harry On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dave, Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence Regards. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature . Dave -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
The caption under the picture doesn't make it clear how long the casting has been out of the oven Steel castings after undergoing 12 hour 1,200 °C (2,190 °F) heat treatment. I recently took up pottery so I know that when the temperature is 1200 the clay become less orange and more white. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:37 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: How do we reconcile that the color observed by people and I assume normal cameras is orange for the casting at 1200 C in the second sample I found? We are discussing the color shown in the pictures instead of the peak emission wavelength are we not? Why would you expect the device to look white hot when a known metal casting looks orange hot at approximately the same temperature? What am I missing? Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 12:31 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has colour temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared . harry On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dave, Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence Regards. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature. Dave -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Why doesn't Rossi makes a self feeding Hot Cat and ends the controversy.
This assumes insulating it will have no adverse effect on the new fire, but excessive insulation could extinguish it. A good test to perform on the Hotcat would be to add the insulation *after* start up. Harry On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:24 PM, jwin...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au wrote: I don't know why Rossi doesn't do this. I think he must hardly have any ingenuity - or the scientists/engineers that are in a position to advise him! (Or you could think of more insulting terms). To convert the output heat to electricity, and then convert it back to input heat would have to be the craziest approach imaginable to use! To feed the output heat back in as input heat all you need to do is insulate the device. What could be easier than that!? Then to stop it running away and melting down all you need to do is pump water or blow gas through it to cool it down in a controlled manner with a thermostatically controlled switch (which could even be a passive device like the old thermostats used in the cooling systems of auto-mobile engines). The cooling necessary to prevent melt-down represents your output energy. If you need some electrical excitation in addition to plain old resistive heating, then this would be a very small component and could easily be subtracted from the output energy to determine the energy balance. But the fact that the system runs away if it is allowed to get too hot - even after the excitation has been turned off - proves that this excitation is not really required. On 18/10/2014 7:32 AM, Paul Breed wrote: Closing the loop with a hot side temperature of 1200C and a COP of 3, is right on the very edge of possible... You need close to 50% of theoretical carnot efficiency... 100C cold 1200C hot gives carnot of 0.76 Best possible heat to mechanical work.. (3*.76) = 2.28 Best possible Work to electricity 0.95 gives 2.116 so to break even close the loop and have ZERO excess energy you would need to get to 46% of carnot Commercial large scale power plants don't get to 46% of carnot Using something really simple like thermo electric (seebeck) generator would require a COP of 20.2 to get to break even assuming that electrical conversion efficency was 99%
Re: [Vo]:Greenhouse HotCat
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:31 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Thanks for the heads up Harry. I wonder if others on the list are seeing my new topics being sent to spam. The question that I am asking is whether or not there are clues to the behavior of the temperature and power output correlation from the latest HotCat tests revealed by greenhouse gas behavior of the Earth. The Earth is warmer than it should be according to normal black body radiation effects. We attribute the reason as being due to incoming visible light energy being converted into heat at the surface and atmosphere which is partially captured. Less radiation power is emitted into space than the temperature suggests for a grey body. An inert body is in thermal equilibrium with its surroundings and its temperature is constant. The only way for it's temperature to change is if it's thermal properties change. This is true if the inert body is black or grey bodies. Does the variation in the shape of the spectrum as the temperature increases effectively destroy the calibration established by the dummy HotCat run? Is there a simple way to take the error into account? If an error has been made then the error resides in the estimate of the thermal properties of the HotCat. If no error has been made, then the HotCat is not an inert body it is an active body. As an active body it is able to elevate its temperature by either generating its own energy or absorbing more energy from its surroundings then it is emitting. The latter scenario is considered impossible according to the second law of thermodynamics. Harry
[Vo]:Giant Rydberg excitons in the copper oxide Cu2O
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v514/n7522/full/nature13832.html Giant Rydberg excitons in the copper oxide Cu2O Nature 514, 343–347 (16 October 2014) doi:10.1038/nature13832Received 05 March 2014 Accepted 02 September 2014 Published online 15 October 2014 A highly excited atom having an electron that has moved into a level with large principal quantum number is a hydrogen-like object, termed a Rydberg atom. The giant size of Rydberg atoms1leads to huge interaction effects. Monitoring these interactions has provided insights into atomic and molecular physics on the single-quantum level. Excitons—the fundamental optical excitations in semiconductors2, consisting of an electron and a positively charged hole—are the condensed-matter analogues of hydrogen. Highly excited excitons with extensions similar to those of Rydberg atoms are of interest because they can be placed and moved in a crystal with high precision using microscopic energy potential landscapes. The interaction of such Rydberg excitons may allow the formation of ordered exciton phases or the sensing of elementary excitations in their surroundings on a quantum level. Here we demonstrate the existence of Rydberg excitons in the copper oxide Cu2O, with principal quantum numbers as large as n = 25. These states have giant wavefunction extensions (that is, the average distance between the electron and the hole) of more than two micrometres, compared to about a nanometre for the ground state. The strong dipole–dipole interaction between such excitons is indicated by a blockade effect in which the presence of one exciton prevents the excitation of another in its vicinity.
[Vo]:Sunspots
Sunspots are examples of unusually cool regions persisting in hotter surroundings, so it is not beyond all experience to say that the temperature of the wire inside the reactor remains below its melting temperature. Harry
[Vo]:Is the beginning of the end of the ECat saga?
Doesn't look good for Rossi, but I am not sure I understand Pomp's point. Is Pomp saying Rossi is rewriting history to make it look Ni62 was present in the ash of his earlier EC at? http://stephanpomp.blogspot.se/2014/10/mr-rossi-i-admire-you.html Harry
Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.
So Rossi's quasi-scam is to jerk around a bunch of scientists with phony reactors so as to throw off his competitors? harry On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: Randy Wuller So for example, let’s say Rossi knew that by setting up the constraints associated with testing the ash, (1% from stuff that fell out), everyone would be misled as to what was actually happening. That’s more appropriately described as protecting your IP. Randy - I never said anything about a crime. Why are you? None of the TV scams I mentioned were prosecuted as a crime, as far as I know. If dishonesty was a crime, we would have to lock up half of the politicians in DC. Make that: more than half. And also - aren’t you assuming that he is not misleading his funder, as well? Would your opinion change if you found out that his royalty agreement was a long-term deal structured around performance milestones? I have no idea what his deal consists of, but I doubt if he can walk away with a large sum without some kind of verification that the device actually works. It is normal business practice with many inventions that a large portion of the total royalty payment will in escrow pending milestones and/or will be delayed until cash-flow starts, meaning that a commercial product emerges. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Is the beginning of the end of the ECat saga?
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* H Veeder Doesn't look good for Rossi, but I am not sure I understand Pomp's point. Is Pomp saying Rossi is rewriting history to make it look like Ni62 was present in the ash of his earlier EC at? http://stephanpomp.blogspot.se/2014/10/mr-rossi-i-admire-you.html Harry No, he is crystal clear that he thinks Rossi is cheating : “All this leaves only one conclusion: you were playing tricks then (trying to give the impression that copper was produced) and you are playing tricks now (trying to have people believe all nickel somehow converted into Ni-62)” We all know now the copper was not the result of transmutation because it came from contamination. This was a mistake which he didn't want to acknowledge because *he* felt embarrassed by it. Rossi is someone who experiences a lot of shame when he makes even an honest mistake, and this causes him to either deny the mistake or react angrily. I am not sure why he is so sensitive when it comes to making honest mistakes. Perhaps the mafia exploited one of his honest mistakes and this led his erroneous conviction. The important thing to remember is that making mistakes is not bad thing in science. Harry
[Vo]:OT: The Courage to Create
The Courage to Create by Rollo May https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auOW5tNFjZg Psychoanalyst Rollo May~We Lack Mystery! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw0SCmoj9tc Harry
[Vo]:OT: Brené Brown - Embracing Vulnerability
Brené Brown - Embracing Vulnerability https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO6n9HmG0qM Harry
Re: [Vo]:OT: The Courage to Create
sorry the link to _ Psychoanalyst Rollo May~We Lack Mystery!_ should be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi9NAzMJbds Harry On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:11 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: The Courage to Create by Rollo May https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auOW5tNFjZg Psychoanalyst Rollo May~We Lack Mystery! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw0SCmoj9tc Harry
Re: [Vo]:OT: The Phone Cops
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: To see how truly powerful TPC is, you have to watch this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_President's_Analyst ThePhoneCompany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbbpjd52atwfeature=youtu.bet=5m59s Maybe this inspired the scene from WKRP Harry
Re: [Vo]:Greenhouse HotCat
Dave, for some reason when you start a new thread your message appears in my spam folder. I am not sure what you are asking, but the Earth supposedly generates some heat too. I am not sure how much of this heat contributes to the global temperature. Harry On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: A thought occurred to me this morning concerning the temperature measurements and output power calculations from the latest HotCat testing. What if the same general type of effect is working in the CAT test that is revealed by the Earth and the greenhouse gas process? We assume that the Earth is pretty much in equilibrium where the power arriving from the sun is matching the power being radiated from our planet. The reason that we are not frozen at this time is because the radiation spectrum is modified by the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere which make our temperature a lot warmer than would be expected for a black body in open space. Perhaps something can be learned from this comparison and that is why I open it to discussion amount this group of knowlegible and diverse folks. One might initially ask if the calibration technique used during the testing of the HotCat would correct for the potential problems. Why would a calibration of the heat emitted within the IR region not hold to a reasonable degree at higher temperatures? Could the change in the shape of the spectrum result in a large error? Have mercy on the messenger. Dave
Re: [Vo]:Greenhouse HotCat
Dave, for some reason when you start a new thread your message appears in my spam folder. I am not sure what you are asking, but the Earth supposedly generates some heat too. I am not sure how much of this heat contributes to the global temperature. Harry On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: A thought occurred to me this morning concerning the temperature measurements and output power calculations from the latest HotCat testing. What if the same general type of effect is working in the CAT test that is revealed by the Earth and the greenhouse gas process? We assume that the Earth is pretty much in equilibrium where the power arriving from the sun is matching the power being radiated from our planet. The reason that we are not frozen at this time is because the radiation spectrum is modified by the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere which make our temperature a lot warmer than would be expected for a black body in open space. Perhaps something can be learned from this comparison and that is why I open it to discussion amount this group of knowlegible and diverse folks. One might initially ask if the calibration technique used during the testing of the HotCat would correct for the potential problems. Why would a calibration of the heat emitted within the IR region not hold to a reasonable degree at higher temperatures? Could the change in the shape of the spectrum result in a large error? Have mercy on the messenger. Dave
[Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.
Some people suspect that the resistor wire can't be Inconel because they are predicted to melt at the reactor's operating temperature. However, since we know the resistor wire casts a shadow in the alumina, the temperature of the wire remains below the operating temperature and therefore can't melt. Harry
Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.
If the wire were the brightest area there would be no excess heat. Harry On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: how do you know this? How do you know the the wire is not the brightest area? On 15 October 2014 15:06, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Some people suspect that the resistor wire can't be Inconel because they are predicted to melt at the reactor's operating temperature. However, since we know the resistor wire casts a shadow in the alumina, the temperature of the wire remains below the operating temperature and therefore can't melt. Harry
Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.
If the wire inside the reactor was hot enough to glow it should produce a more uniform spiral glow along the entire length of the tube. Harry On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Additionally, look at the darkened photo, the wire exterior to the reactor sourrounded by cooler materials to radiate to are brighter than the bright wires in the reactor. Hard to believe it would be colder inside the reactor surrounded by relatively hotter materials that are harder to radiate to. I think that is pretty strong indication that it is the wires that are the bright areas. On 15 October 2014 20:14, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: I am looking at high zoom at the same photos and finding it easy to draw the opposite conclusion. Confirmation bias on both our parts :) I think it is equivocal at best. On 15 October 2014 19:52, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: If you zoom in very closely on the hot reactor photos you can see the the dark lines are of uniform width, continuity and shade. I am 95% confident that is the shadow of the coil. The light areas change in brightness, width, etc. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: how do you know this? How do you know the the wire is not the brightest area? On 15 October 2014 15:06, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Some people suspect that the resistor wire can't be Inconel because they are predicted to melt at the reactor's operating temperature. However, since we know the resistor wire casts a shadow in the alumina, the temperature of the wire remains below the operating temperature and therefore can't melt. Harry
[Vo]:Thermography
If the thermography was done reasonably well, then it is proving to be more than just a means of measuring excess heat, it is also a means of probing the LENR phenomena. Harry
Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.
Thanks for posting your ideas. I hadn't seen that picture of the march 2013 reactor sitting on the scale with heating coils visible. Why don't we just accept that the authors of the 2014 test also know enough about the construction of the reactor to say that the dark bands align with the wires? Harry On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: I wrote up my analysis of the banding : (Draft -- I'll rename it later). http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_hotcat_oct2014_141014a.php Short answer : we don't even know whether the bright bands line up with the wires, or the gaps between them. There are multiple explanations, which depend on the structure used to hold the wires, and on the properties of everything. Insufficient data !
Re: [Vo]:E-cat : Minimum COP assuming worst mistakes possible
You might say I am splitting hairs but what Mckubre has written here is technically incorrect. The Stephan-Boltzman law is relationship between temperature and output power. It is not a relationship between input power and output power so you can't use the law by itself to infer any relationship between input and output power. Additional assumptions/laws are required. Harry On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:08 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: You have a good understanding in my opinion. There is no doubt that energy is being generated within the core. Dave -Original Message- From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com To: Vortex List vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Oct 15, 2014 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:E-cat : Minimum COP assuming worst mistakes possible A calibration curve will bend down. It never bends up. this mean that temperature grow less than the power ? this mean that when you increase the power, and if temperature grows much more that before, something anomalous is happening ? Either excess heat, or some external blanket effect (increase of thermal resistance)... but convection does not diminish with heat? did I undertand well? 2014-10-14 22:09 GMT+02:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: - is there a simple way , with minimal assumption, to be sure that the COP1 Look at the color. If it is dull red, it may be around 750°C which is where you would expect it to be in a straight line extrapolation calibration up to 800 W. If it is white it has to be around 1300°C, which is far higher than the calibration indicates it should be. A calibration curve will bend down. It never bends up. McKubre pointed this out: On page 7 of the report the authors state: “Subsequent calculation proved that increasing the input by roughly 100 watts had caused an increase of about 700 watts in power emitted.” This is interesting. The shape of the output vs. input power curve is observed (or implied) to strongly curve upwards in a manner completely inconsistent with the Stefan-Boltzmann law for radiative heat loss. It is also inconsistent with simple convective heat transfer but several issues need to be addressed before we can claim this as a qualitative or even “semi-quantitative” measure of excess heat production . . . Note that incandescent colors are similar for all materials. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.
Look at this way the paper is getting peer reviewed in public. Hopefully they will revise the paper to address the criticisms. Harry On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 11:58 PM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Nullis in verba. :) I believe my eyes more than others words. In finding so many potential faults with so little published information (they had a month to investigate!!) I can only say that I am unimpressed by the critical observational skills or reporting of the testers. If they had approached this demo with a more critical mindset I might be more inclined to believe them. There is a mountain to climb to convince the world, and they have not really helped that process. On 16 October 2014 11:41, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for posting your ideas. I hadn't seen that picture of the march 2013 reactor sitting on the scale with heating coils visible. Why don't we just accept that the authors of the 2014 test also know enough about the construction of the reactor to say that the dark bands align with the wires? Harry On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: I wrote up my analysis of the banding : (Draft -- I'll rename it later). http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_hotcat_oct2014_141014a.php Short answer : we don't even know whether the bright bands line up with the wires, or the gaps between them. There are multiple explanations, which depend on the structure used to hold the wires, and on the properties of everything. Insufficient data !
Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.
You could explain the glow pattern with those assumptions but you would still need to explain away the excess heat. Harry On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Not if it is touching the walls of inner or outer alumina tube in places, intermittent contact due to vagaries of original wire winding around inner tube and subsequent large differential thermal expansion so that the wire is quenched in some places but not in others. Would explain the variation in glow that we see (along with slight translucence of alumina tube), and would change as the wire gets hotter and relaxes pre-existing springiness that might otherwise hold the wire in contact with the inner tube - would lead to wire temperature increasing faster than power input would suggest - ie what we see with supposedly increasing COP. Most likely means of construction is winding wires around an inner tube, or winding them around a different mandrel and then slipping them over the tube. Bonding them to the inner tube is an extra step that (based on inconsistency/variability of surface glow) has likely not been done and for which their would be little initial motive anyway. And massive relative thermal expansion of the wire (~1%) would likely have cracked any ceramic bonding or attempts to rigidly encase the wires or bond them to the inner tube anyway. Differential thermal expansion means that the internal tube/vessel is likely only bonded to the thermocouple end cap, otherwise the external tube would be broken by axial stress due to differential thermal expansion of higher temperature of inner tube compared to external tube. On 16 October 2014 10:58, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: If the wire inside the reactor was hot enough to glow it should produce a more uniform spiral glow along the entire length of the tube. Harry On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Additionally, look at the darkened photo, the wire exterior to the reactor sourrounded by cooler materials to radiate to are brighter than the bright wires in the reactor. Hard to believe it would be colder inside the reactor surrounded by relatively hotter materials that are harder to radiate to. I think that is pretty strong indication that it is the wires that are the bright areas. On 15 October 2014 20:14, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: I am looking at high zoom at the same photos and finding it easy to draw the opposite conclusion. Confirmation bias on both our parts :) I think it is equivocal at best. On 15 October 2014 19:52, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: If you zoom in very closely on the hot reactor photos you can see the the dark lines are of uniform width, continuity and shade. I am 95% confident that is the shadow of the coil. The light areas change in brightness, width, etc. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: how do you know this? How do you know the the wire is not the brightest area? On 15 October 2014 15:06, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Some people suspect that the resistor wire can't be Inconel because they are predicted to melt at the reactor's operating temperature. However, since we know the resistor wire casts a shadow in the alumina, the temperature of the wire remains below the operating temperature and therefore can't melt. Harry
Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.
Another strange thing might be happening. Assuming the electrical input power measurements are correct, is there enough electrical power flowing through the wires to cause the wires external to the reactor to glow with the observed color? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Determining the transmittance . . . of semitransparent materials at elevated temperatures
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: A corespondent sent me this link: http://www.eurotherm2008.tue.nl/Proceedings_Eurotherm2008/papers/Radiation/RAD_6.pdf He commented: My interpretation of figure 6 is that the tranmissivity of alumina goes down to zero. Hence, this shows the arguments about alumina translucency are moot. - Jed does this imply the dark bands are not cast shadows? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Inconel f/H and SPP
what is SPP? Harry On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: In any event, there seems to be no good reason to eliminate the Inconel as being active, since it contains lots of nickel - especially in the context of SPP.
Re: [Vo]:Three hypotheses for Rossi mass spec results
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 10:25 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Broadly speaking, I think three explanation have been offered for the astounding mass spec results: 1. Tentative acceptance, or at least acceptance for the sake of argument. That, it seems to me, is McKubre's position. As McKubre says, this result is so different from previous ones it should be considered one-off, and not yet replicated. 2. Mistake. This seems unlikely given the magnitude of the effect. On the other hand mass spectroscopy is a difficult art. The people at Mitsubishi and the National Synchrotron lab both saw pronounced isotopic shifts in Iwamura's samples. The people at the NRL looked at those samples and saw nothing. I believe they were the very same samples in some cases. 3. Fraud. Surely you jest. This has been proposed by skeptics thousands of times to dismiss cold fusion results. It is an intellectual dead end. It can seldom be tested. I cannot judge the likelihood of 1 or 2. #3 seems unlikely because, as I said, there is no motive. Rossi already has what he wants from IH. I doubt IH has any investment (fiscal or psychological) in Rossi's Ni theories. No industrialist cares about theory, except insofar as they want a theory to speed up development. - Jed Robert Ellefson makes a good case why the ash is not fake without reference to motive or magic tricks: https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98444.html I do not believe that the discovery of highly-enriched isotopes is the result of fraud. I think that the variable fractions of isotopes between the surface and the bulk of the ash indicates that isotopic enrichment was occurring in-situ. The apparent fact (if true) that the bulk of the nickel is 99.3% Ni-62, while it is 98.7% Ni-62 on the surface, along with an even larger lithium isotope gradient from surface-to-bulk, demonstrates that we are looking at the ash of a nuclear reaction, and not a faked result. I have no idea how Rossi could achieve such gradients in with a laboratory-supply feedstock of enriched nickel achieving both the surface morphology that the ash grain displayed and the isotope fractionation gradient that it displayed. I highly doubt this would be possible to fake even with tremendous effort. So, rather than providing evidence of fraud, I very much believe that this isotope fractionation gradient clearly indicates that some kind of nuclear reaction is taking place in during this experiment. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Determining the transmittance . . . of semitransparent materials at elevated temperatures
Much of the red glow is confined to the central part of the alumina vessel, but there are areas where the red glow extends to the exterior surface of the vessel. Is all the red glow near the exterior surface just diffusion of red light from the central part due to the alumina's translucency or could some of it be indicative of the surface temperature in those areas? Harry On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: It has moderate transmissivity in the visible range, which is what the photograph shows. But it drops to zero by 6 and above, which is what the IR camera is measuring. So there could be visible shadows / glowing resistors seen through the ceramic, but the IR calculations are OK. -- *From: *H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com *Sent: *Monday, October 13, 2014 11:27:44 PM He commented: My interpretation of figure 6 is that the tranmissivity of alumina goes down to zero. Hence, this shows the arguments about alumina translucency are moot. does this imply the dark bands are not cast shadows? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature hot-cat Lugano demo
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: Another point has to do with how the heat is conveyed from a LENR reaction. Since the LENR reaction is likely a nano-scale event, heat must be conveyed from the reaction in a way that doesn't make the NAE the hottest spot. Otherwise, none of the reported melt-downs would be possible - the NAE would evaporate itself before it could create enough heat to melt the macro apparatus. This implies that the heat is conveyed from the NAE by photons - not such high energy that they readily escape the reactor, but high enough that it can penetrate through a mm or so of the surrounding materials (which could be LENR powder), depositing heat as the photons are attenuated in penetration. The important take-away is that the NAE cannot be the hottest spot - it must heat its surroundings more than itself. Given this, it is possible that the heat from the LENR is being absorbed in the alumina in a distributed way, causing the LENR powder to be largely the same temperature as the surrounding ceramic. I don't believe it is necessary or probable that the core must be much higher temperature than the shell. What you are proposing is the existence of anomalous cooler zone which conflicts the thermal expectations of law bound scientists. Anyway, IMO, if anomalous cool zones exist I think it is more likely they are able to persist away from the core. Can we refocus this thread into discussion about the construction of the latest reactor? For example: - Why do we think the end caps are so big? Are they part of a lower temperature insulated mounting system? - Perhaps he assembles each tube into a larger array and the end caps keep them thermally isolated from each other. Harry - Why do we think the 3-phase drive is used? - What else? Bob Higgins
Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature hot-cat Lugano demo
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 1:21 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: Can we refocus this thread into discussion about the construction of the latest reactor? For example: - Why do we think the end caps are so big? Are they part of a lower temperature insulated mounting system? - Perhaps he assembles each tube into a larger array and the end caps keep them thermally isolated from each other. Harry Sorry, I just restated what you suggested. Harry
[Vo]:OT: The Phone Cops
The phone cops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTPzTG1Lx60 Harry
Re: [Vo]:Inconel f/H and SPP
Ok. Anyway, I agree with your intuition that something odd might be occurring in the heater wire. harry On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: SPP = surface plasmon polariton. This is a favorite hypothesis of NASA at the moment. Violante discovered over 10 years ago that SPP can produce nuclear reactions. Paper is on LENR-CANR *From:* H Veeder what is SPP? Harry In any event, there seems to be no good reason to eliminate the Inconel as being active, since it contains lots of nickel - especially in the context of SPP.
[Vo]:NBC News article on Fusion Mentions E-Cat (Not Negatively)
http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/10/14/nbc-news-article-on-fusion-mentions-e-cat-not-negatively/ Harry
Re: [Vo]:An expert reviewed and approves of this configuration
So the heater coils in the 2013 test were embedded in ceramic sheath which covered a steel vessel. I was recalling the 2013 test as if the coils were inside the steel vessel. It all makes sense now. Harry On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Yes, sorry -- I was referring back to the 2013 test. For that we had a picture of the ceramic frame holding the resistor wires, which was cast in two (I recall, without looking it up) sections. For a small area, we have a solid plate (complicated by fins), and then a cog-like structure with the gap towards the outside. Presuming that this makes good thermal contact to the outer cylinder we can approximate it as a rectangular block with a rectangular hole, with the wire in the center. The wire itself is mostly in poor contact with the holder, so it supplies heat by thermal radiation (or induction, though I think that's less likely). There are two pathways from the inner hot zone: by conduction through the solid part of the gear, and by radiation through the gap. (It's probably close to thermal equilibrium.) Given that Alumina is an insulator, I don't know which wins, but there is definitely a possibility of a temperature difference, which may persist. I don't have the tools (comsol etc) to model the radiation in and across the gap. --
Re: [Vo]:An expert reviewed and approves of this configuration
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Figure 6 : this is complicated by transmission, which may be happening in the visible range. (IF the helical shadows are indeed images or shadows of the coiuls. But I still think they represent different conduction zones of a ceramic holder, as in the March test). However, this has a broad peak near the center of the visible range, so the blue might be enhanced a little. I find it odd the dark bands (a.k.a the shadows) persist. I can understand how differences in conduction play a role when the reactor first starts but in the long run shouldn't the dark bands disappear? Harry
Re: [Vo]:An expert reviewed and approves of this configuration
The banded regions should absorb heat and in the long run reach the same temperature as their surroundings. The fact that they persist is a sign of something significant...and I don't mean fraud or incompetence. Harry On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:54 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: The coil stays cooler than the core when it is heating thru induction due to less resistance in the coil so that is why I think the coil is darker/cooler http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking In an induction cooker, a coil of copper wire is placed underneath the cooking pot . An alternating . In turn, most of the energy becomes heat in the high- resistance steel, while the driving coil stays cool. On Monday, October 13, 2014, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Figure 6 : this is complicated by transmission, which may be happening in the visible range. (IF the helical shadows are indeed images or shadows of the coiuls. But I still think they represent different conduction zones of a ceramic holder, as in the March test). However, this has a broad peak near the center of the visible range, so the blue might be enhanced a little. I find it odd the dark bands (a.k.a the shadows) persist. I can understand how differences in conduction play a role when the reactor first starts but in the long run shouldn't the dark bands disappear? Harry
Re: [Vo]:An expert reviewed and approves of this configuration
Maybe I misunderstood but when he said the march test, I thought he meant the march test of 2013. Harry On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 11:17 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Alumina is a top notch insulator and the coil is imbedded in it. More heat must be leaving other routes. Where r the fins? I have not studied the photos. On Monday, October 13, 2014, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: The banded regions should absorb heat and in the long run reach the same temperature as their surroundings. The fact that they persist is a sign of something significant...and I don't mean fraud or incompetence. Harry On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:54 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: The coil stays cooler than the core when it is heating thru induction due to less resistance in the coil so that is why I think the coil is darker/cooler http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking In an induction cooker, a coil of copper wire is placed underneath the cooking pot . An alternating . In turn, most of the energy becomes heat in the high- resistance steel, while the driving coil stays cool. On Monday, October 13, 2014, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Figure 6 : this is complicated by transmission, which may be happening in the visible range. (IF the helical shadows are indeed images or shadows of the coiuls. But I still think they represent different conduction zones of a ceramic holder, as in the March test). However, this has a broad peak near the center of the visible range, so the blue might be enhanced a little. I find it odd the dark bands (a.k.a the shadows) persist. I can understand how differences in conduction play a role when the reactor first starts but in the long run shouldn't the dark bands disappear? Harry
Re: [Vo]:another Law breaker?
ugh...my idiot twin wrote this. Harry On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:57 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Another related thought experiment Consider the focusing of sunlight by a simple parabolic reflector. Why doesn't that constitute a violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which (according to one of the many equivalents formulations) says heat cannot flow from a cold to hot region without an input of work. It is because the reflector does work by changing the path of light photons. A reflector attached to the ground does not appear to do any work because the bulk of the Earth pushes back too. However imagine a number of parabolic reflectors assembled in a spherical arrangement suspended inside a translucent bubble so the light is uniform in all directions. Each reflector focuses light but collectively the 2nd law is violated because they do not appear to do any work since they all push against each other and so do not move. Harry
[Vo]:Robert Godes comments on the report
Robert Godes from Brillouin comments: http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/734-Short-text-from-Robert-Godes-regarding-the-test/ Harry
Re: [Vo]:Incandescence is the wrong color
what is the other direction? (I am having hard time following the flow of thought in this particular thread) harry On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 10:31 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: How does the emissivity of the alumina effect the optical appearance with regard to color? Is it possible for most of the energy to be emitted in the IR spectrum while limited at optical wavelengths? I recall looking at a piece of brightly glowing insulator in some NASA photo. The material was being held within a volunteer's hand and did not burn that person. Had the radiation been emitted at the level expected by the brightness, the person would have suffered severe burns. Could this process work in the other direction such as we seem to question in this discussion? Dave -Original Message- From: a.ashfield a.ashfi...@verizon.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 12, 2014 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Incandescence is the wrong color Jed, As someone experienced with working at these kinds of temperatures in the glass industry, it was obvious that the temperature shown in the image is way below the reported operating temperature. I don't know whether this is because it was warming up, or because many consumer cameras don't show red hot things correctly. I am now somewhat dated, but I would have used a type S platinum thermocouple, at the reported temperature, for the reactor control and would have reported that reading as a useful check against the IR reading. I also wonder what they used for the heating element as that would have to be good for 1500C
Re: [Vo]:Incandescence is the wrong color
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 11:43 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I refer to the opposite effect in this case Harry. In other words, can the color appear to be too dark in the visual region to our eyes compared to the emission of thermal energy in the IR. Are there surfaces that are very poor emitters of energy in the visual region that behave more like a black body in the infrared region? This is more of a question instead of a statement since it seems like that might be happening in this special case. The light emitted does not have a color that matches what is expected to be seen from a surface of a broad band black body. I wonder if anyone on the list has seen materials with that characteristic. If you consider the behavior of a RF radio transmitter, you will understand the jest of my question. In that case, the amount of power at its transmission frequency, being narrow band and so low in Hertz, would indicate a black body that was at an enormous temperature if the complete spectrum were available as expected. But we know that it does not represent a true black body since it is narrow band. Can anything of a similar nature exist at other frequency ranges such as IR? The blackbody would still have a low temperature if the distribution peeked at radio wave lengths which are much longer than light waves. See how the temperature peek of a blackbody declines as wavelength increases: http://voyager.egglescliffe.org.uk/physics/astronomy/blackbody/Image21b.gif You are struggling to find an explanation which is consistent with the claim of excess energy and with the 2nd law of thermodynamics (heat flows from a hotter region to a cooler region). Can it be done? You can disregard what I am about to say since I am not expert in these matters but I think a choice has to be made. Either there is no excess energy or the 2nd law has broken down in this system. Harry
Re: [Vo]:About Goat Guy theory of Alumina transparency and emissivity change on E-ca test
On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 9:48 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Especially if they switch to a pulse mode where they are not really heating directly anymore, the pulses are working like an induction stovetop On page 6 there's a photo of the power and harmonic analyzer. I don't know how to read these, but on the left of the display there are pulses, two up and then two down. Eric It is worth noting that pulses of a different kind were used in the cooler version of the Ecat. They were in the form of pressure pulses of injected H gas. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Video of the test
I can see it now ...and infrared picture of Rossi on the cover of TIME. lol Harry On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Fig 3 clearly shows a camera in the top-left, with a (temporary?) cable strung from it, aimed directly at the ecat. The figure 3 caption says those are IR cameras. Background: reactor, the two thermal imagery cameras. They recorded with two IR cameras the whole time. An IR camera would catch someone monkeying with the cell just as well as a visible light camera would. It would be like hiring a bumble bee as a watch dog. B. . . . - Jed
Re: Isotope conversion completeness, was RE: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in
Can this be used to challenge Pomp's claim that the ash was faked by commercially available enriched isotopes? Most people on this list seem to be very good about raising technical objections to criticisms of the calorimetry, but they counter Pomp's claim with non-technical arguments about how it would be irrational of Rossi to fake the ash. Harry On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Robert Ellefson vortex-h...@e2ke.com wrote: Recall that the bulk results show 57% Li-6 enrichment, vs. 92% surface enrichment. I believe the higher fraction of Li-6 on the surface is the result of starvation of the reaction cycle resulting in an excess of Li-6 as compared to the steady-state balance during operation, which is reflected in the bulk composition. Read these messages for further details: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98020.html (msg has an error, should read ni62, not ni68) http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98350.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98422.html -Bob _ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 4:35 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Isotope conversion completeness, was RE: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in Ok - I can buy the cyclic reaction, but how do you explain the great preponderance of Li-6 in the ash, compared to all other isotopes? That does not indicate a cycle so much as a major shift... and where are the intermediaries in the nearly pure sample - which would indicate one neutron at a time? Surely you are not suggesting multi-body? _ From: Robert Ellefson Jones, I can only give you the assurances that I received from the report itself. All of the claims I am making are coming from there. Pages 28 and 53 describe the ICP methods as involving the entire sample mass. I do not believe this is indicative of fraud. I believe this indicates a cyclic reaction is occurring that results in a steady-state heat-generating reaction that cycles between Li-7 and Li-6 and results in Ni-62 enrichment. I put some more thoughts into this message: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg98422.html -Bob _ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 4:16 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Isotope conversion completeness, was RE: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in Let me put it this way, if what you say is true - that the sample tested to 99.3% purity of Ni-62, then we have a major problem. Are you certain? ...this information is very important, so please assure us that is true. Jones From: Robert Ellefson First, as I explain in this (rather-long-winded) mail from yesterday, the ENTIRE ASH SAMPLE BULK was analyzed by ICP-MS as consisting of 99.3% enriched Ni-62. ( see: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98350.html ) Allow me to repeat this crucially-important point: The 2.13mg ash sample contained 2.12mg of PURE Nickel-62. Only the SEM/EDS and ToF-SIMS methods are restricted to analyzing the surface-layer composition.
Re: Isotope conversion completeness, was RE: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in
Thanks! Harry On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Robert Ellefson vortex-h...@e2ke.com wrote: Harry and Jones, I do not believe that the discovery of highly-enriched isotopes is the result of fraud. I think that the variable fractions of isotopes between the surface and the bulk of the ash indicates that isotopic enrichment was occurring in-situ. The apparent fact (if true) that the bulk of the nickel is 99.3% Ni-62, while it is 98.7% Ni-62 on the surface, along with an even larger lithium isotope gradient from surface-to-bulk, demonstrates that we are looking at the ash of a nuclear reaction, and not a faked result. I have no idea how Rossi could achieve such gradients in with a laboratory-supply feedstock of enriched nickel achieving both the surface morphology that the ash grain displayed and the isotope fractionation gradient that it displayed. I highly doubt this would be possible to fake even with tremendous effort. So, rather than providing evidence of fraud, I very much believe that this isotope fractionation gradient clearly indicates that some kind of nuclear reaction is taking place in during this experiment. -Bob *From:* H Veeder Saturday, October 11, 2014 9:20 PM Can this be used to challenge Pomp's claim that the ash was faked by commercially available enriched isotopes? On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Robert Ellefson vortex-h...@e2ke.com wrote: Recall that the bulk results show 57% Li-6 enrichment, vs. 92% surface enrichment. I believe the higher fraction of Li-6 on the surface is the result of starvation of the reaction cycle resulting in an excess of Li-6 as compared to the steady-state balance during operation, which is reflected in the bulk composition. Read these messages for further details: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98020.html (msg has an error, should read ni62, not ni68) http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98350.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98422.html
Re: [Vo]:Re: Boom - Tom Darden speaks.
As far as I know the biggest source of coal pollution comes from coal fired electricity plants. However, Tom Darden seems to be talking about coal burning just for heat. I suppose this is still a major problem in China. Harry On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: Original link: http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2014/10/raleigh-investor-darden-still-bullish-on.html?page=all Triangle Business Journal is a credible journal. “I’m serious — it’s about air pollution and coal,” Darden says. “Our company is called Industrial Heat. Our job is to make industrial heat and industrial heat is made by coal… We don’t think any energy should be made by coal, so that’s why I’m doing this. This could be a way to eliminate the use of coal.” *Our* company. Exciting times! On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/10/10/tom-darden-of-industrial-heat-comments-on-e-cat-test/ Of all the ones that I wanted to hear, was this. Tom Darden is not speaking based on this report. He's obviously intimately familar with the ecat, the 1mw install, and all the pros/cons/strengths/weaknesses of this device. He's not relying on some report by a bunch of scientists. Tom Darden is no fool, He's yale graduate / head of a billion dollar hedge fund. Going to raise probability to 55%
Re: [Vo]:Nasa scientist endorses report
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I am glad they published this report. They were under no obligation to do so. We are beggars and beggars cannot be choosers. This is another reason why most scientists will ignore this report because they see themselves as a community of equals. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Nasa scientist endorses report
It is worth noting that some FP cells got hot enough to boil off the electrolytic solution and then remained hot for a while. Harry On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Very perceptive and a great insight into why the test was setup the way that it was. Rossi has not solved his control issues yet. On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: Brad, I think part of the problem was control. When you use the hot cat to actually heat something I suspect it messes with the ability to control the reaction. The best they can do is let it radiate, which is why the thermal cameras. On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone know if there will be a press release or QA where the experimenters can answer questions? It would be extreme negligence to allow Levi or Rossi to open the reactor or handle the ash. Two things that lends credence to Jones' fear-- Rossi's constant may be positive or may be negative mantra, and Rossi's statements that getting actual work accomplished is difficult. If it were a clear COP of 3, it should be pretty easy to heat a tub of water or do some kind of obvious work. - Brad On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote: Jones -- I can't say your objections to Rossi being present when it was open are unfounded. I think that was a rather stupid move/agreement between the parties. Creates all kind of innuendo which they could/should have avoided. With that said I'm not so sure it really presented him with much chance to swap the sample, as Mats Lewan wrote: I don’t have details minute by minute, but I was told one member of the team together with Rossi and a technician opened the reactor in a closed room. A diamond saw had to be used to cut some part before the end plug could be removed. The team member was allowed to pick 10 mg out of the charge which amounted to about 1 gram. This constraint was supposedly imposed by IH. The sample of used fuel could be chosen freely from the charge inside the reactor, which means that if the material was manipulated, all of it had to be so. Basically I guess you would have needed to swap the reactor for another identical before opening. On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Here is a reduction ad absurdum example of why this experiment was unbelievably poorly designed. NOTE: The experiment could still be gainful, but the Levi’s results do not prove anything, as presented. The thermocouple does not help – it is admitted by Levi that it was accurate only on the two caps, which were much cooler. Let’s say I claim to have a hundred watt OU lightbulb that I want to sell to you for $1 million. If it were a glass bulb, and clear, and I use the IR camera to measure the filament temperature, and then used that temperature to compute the emissivity of the entire surface area of the bulb, say 100 cm^2, then you would cry foul – since the obviously only the surface area of the filament is responsible. That filament area could be 1 cm^2 and in effect, I have computed the power of the bulb with a 25:1 overestimate- based on an incorrect assumption, but based on a correct reading and a correct formula. Next let’s say the bulb presented is frosted, and you are naïve and do not know that it contains a hot filament - but I use the camera to focus on an area of the bulb’s exterior, where from prior experience, I know that the filament radiates the most photons, even if that reading is diminished in intensity from a clear bulb … this technique can still result in a 3:1 over-estimate of the net emissivity of the bulb, since there is a strong contribution from a hot filament. This can be demonstrated rather easily to be factual. That is the problem with this paper. Levi seems to be telling us only this: that if one applies 800 watts to a Inconel wire, it will reach 1300 degrees. But we already knew that. We cannot extrapolate the emissivity of the resistor wire to the entire surface of the reactor. As for a thermocouple, placement is everything. I saw NO DATA on calibration of the thermocouple, only that someone who already screwed up the experiment royally thinks that it verifies what could be a grossly incorrect calibration. In fact this is admitted “We also found that the ridges made thermal contact with any thermocouple probe placed on the outer surface of the reactor extremely critical, making any direct temperature measurement with the required precision impossible.” So they admit the thermocouple reading was not done with any precision on the exterior of the tube – only on the caps which are much cooler and consequently the thermocouple verifies nothing! $64 question: Was Rossi present at the time the
Re: [Vo]:About Goat Guy theory of Alumina transparency and emissivity change on E-ca test
The issue of translucency would alter the absolute power calculations but wouldn't the relative difference between input and output power remain roughly the same and therefore the COP too? Harry On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 03:48 PM 10/10/2014, you wrote: Yes and the thickness of the alumina and the time constants of heat transfer dTouter/dt = K(Tinner - Touter) or similare suitable equation. Fundamentals of Ceramics Michael Barsoom About 600 pages. I found a probably bootleg copy on the web, but you'll have to google it yourself.
Re: [Vo]:Halo lithium was:Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elfors
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com In reply to H Veeder's message * Maybe it can all be done with shrunken lithium... Lithino ... or maybe the apparent Rossi reaction of Ni58 - Ni 62 can be accomplished with a known particle, which is halo-lithium or Li-11. This isotope has four excess neutrons - located far away from the nucleus and that is the only reason to mention it - since it can provide a hypothetical model for a (virtual) kind transfer mechanism in one step. (admittedly never before seen in fizzix :-) The look-a-like atom which makes this arguable is composed of Li-7 and four virtual neutrons (DDL) instead of four real neutrons. But given that Li-11 is real, then this explanation cannot be ignored to the extent Bianchini's analysis of the spectacular accumulation of Ni-62 is correct. I don't understand...does the resulting Ni62 contain four virtual neutrons? This is the only way I can imagine avoiding a three or four body reaction to transfer four neutrons, and even then it makes far more sense to say that it cannot happen at all. But we have to cover all the bases, just in case... A halo atom of Li-11 has a short half-life - but perhaps it is long enough for lithium to act as a transfer agent, and perhaps it is longer-lived with virtual neutrons than real neutrons. These would derive from the initial hydrogen being reduced to redundant ground states so there are several miracles involved, including the one where the Li-7 loses a core neutron to become Li-6. Jones harry
Re: [Vo]:About Goat Guy theory of Alumina transparency and emissivity change on E-ca test
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: This transparency to infrared photons must be why Rossi uses this ceramic material to get heat unencumbered to his powder. Rossi is clever. Or maybe it allows more infrared photons to escape unencumbered once the reactor ignites. Harry
Re: [Vo]:About Goat Guy theory of Alumina transparency and emissivity change on E-ca test
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:35 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 06:14 PM 10/10/2014, H Veeder wrote: The issue of translucency would alter the absolute power calculations but wouldn't the relative difference between input and output power remain roughly the same and therefore the COP too? No -- the input power calculation is correct as it is. The output power -- and hence COP (output/input+output) -- may change. quite right...thanks harry
Re: [Vo]:another Law breaker?
Another related thought experiment Consider the focusing of sunlight by a simple parabolic reflector. Why doesn't that constitute a violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which (according to one of the many equivalents formulations) says heat cannot flow from a cold to hot region without an input of work. It is because the reflector does work by changing the path of light photons. A reflector attached to the ground does not appear to do any work because the bulk of the Earth pushes back too. However imagine a number of parabolic reflectors assembled in a spherical arrangement suspended inside a translucent bubble so the light is uniform in all directions. Each reflector focuses light but collectively the 2nd law is violated because they do not appear to do any work since they all push against each other and so do not move. Harry On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 5:10 PM, David L. Babcock olb...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you. Also, Noted that the 2nd law is not violated. Ol' Bab On 10/7/2014 1:34 PM, Ian Walker wrote: Hi David I did a search for good-bye-second-law-of-thermodynamics It came up in google with this http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/09/good-bye-second-law-of-thermodynamics.html I clicked on the link in google and it took me to the page that I quote the first few lines of: Home http://www.laserfocusworld.com/content/lfw/en/index.html Good-bye second law of thermodynamics? Good-bye second law of thermodynamics? 09/02/2014 By John Wallace http://www.laserfocusworld.com/content/lfw/en/authors/john-wallace.html Senior Editor I was quite happy last week to post a news item about a colorless transparent luminescent solar concentrator developed at Michigan State University http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/08/solar-collector-is-transparent-colorless-doesn-t-block-the-view.html (East Lansing, MI), as I have had a long-term fascination with luminescent solar concentrators. So why am I so fascinated by such devices? One reason is that at first glance they seem to violate the second law of thermodynamics http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-49/issue-06/features/chillers-and-coolers--breakthrough-of-optical-refrigeration--las.html, which says that the entropy of any isolated system never decreases. In the field of optics, the second law sorta translates in a hand-waving way to the fact that the étendue (solid angle multiplied by beam cross-section) of a light beam can never decrease: for example, one can't focus a low-quality laser beam to a spot as small as that that can be produced by a high-quality laser beam (given the same lens used for both, with lens pupil optimally filled)... Kind Regards walker On 7 October 2014 18:52, David L. Babcock olb...@gmail.com wrote: Exact link not found. On inspection, no such article found in their many lists. Pulled? Ol' Bab On 10/5/2014 9:33 PM, Jones Beene wrote: Every week it seems, there is a new assault around the edges of the 2nd Generalization of Thermodynamics... http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/09/good-bye-second-law-of-therm odynamics.html --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- http://www.avast.com/ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
[Vo]:Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elfors
Elforsks CEO: Let's move on with research on LENR http://www.nyteknik.se/asikter/debatt/article3854541.ece google translation of swedish: Elforsk takes now the initiative to build a comprehensive Swedish research initiative. More knowledge is needed to understand and explain. Let us engage more researchers in searching coat phenomenon and then explain how it works. Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elforsk Harry
Re: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in
Stephen Pomp asserts that it is possible to use commercially available isotopes to make an ash sample that gives the same values as measured in the report. Setting aside the issues of how Rossi would switch samples and his motivation for doing so, we should ask if Pomp is exaggerating the correspondence between the measured ash values and the commercially available materials. Harry On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 3:32 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: bad logic even a fraudster cannot change the physics of heat. a fraudster need to control his environment. he makes pony show. he ensure condition for his fraud. he does not let people play with his reactor, choose methods... the fraud hypotheis are empty... they don't even consider the consequences of their hypothsis and how it will have been spotted... how it could have been spotted according to the protocol. the fraud theory have to propose a reliable way to fraud... not just luck. they have to prove that it cannot be spotted, not only the the measurement don, but by the one that could have been done reasonably... moreover Rossi is not a convicted fraudster, but a loose polluting industrialist as the justice said. this is an urban myth. his numerous mistakes and failures are not incoherent with Italian justice opinion, with his clients opinion, with his bosses opinions, with Mats lewan ... creative, yes. real yes, loose and stubborn, sometime... that is what makes disruptive inventors. nice and cautious guys follow the train, don't lead it. 2014-10-09 3:58 GMT+02:00 Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com: Jed, it doesn't matter. If the ash is a fraud, Rossi is a fraud. Plain and simple. I'm not interesting in debating the other aspects of the experiment because of the complexities involved in calorimetry. There are no such complexities in the ash which makes the discussion very straightforward. He either switched it out or he didn't. He's either a liar or he isn't. It's pretty simple.. On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: I'm betting he's a fraud, simply because the probability of him doing this is too incredible. What he's done is nothing short of miraculous. It is more miraculous than what Fleischmann and Pons and several hundred other groups have done. Do you think they are all frauds? In any case, your hypothesis does not get a free pass. If you say this is fraud, and you want anyone here to take you seriously, you will have to suggest a plausible way in which Rossi could carry it out. I do not mean the isotope changes; I realize it is physically possible for someone to swap the samples by sleight of hand. I mean how would he fool the calorimetry for 32 days when he was not present, and when none of instruments belong to him? Is Rossi capable of changing the Stephan-Boltzmann law? Can he magically alter an IR camera? If you cannot present a plausible, step-by-step description of how he did this, you are assertion has no merit. You might was well say, it was caused by invisible unicorns. It is total inflection point in the progress of humanity and all that we know. That inflection point came on March 23, 1989. In the long view of history, Rossi is a minor incremental improvement to FP. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:[Rossi TR#2] Reactor close down : all Li and Ni converted. Coincidentally?
On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: There are so many transmutation threads going on that I'm not sure if this was posted : Rodney Nicholson October 8th, 2014 at 5:05 PM 2) It seems that in the ITP test the content of 58Ni was reduced almost to zero after one month of operation. That leads to a conclusion that maybe some route of conversion of 58Ni to 62Ni may be a significant source of the energy relaeased. But if the E-cat can function for as much as six times longer than the 32 days of the ITP test, then that cannot be right because there would not be any 58Ni available for the next five months. AR: 2- the charge had been made for a 35 days test. This is the test duration agreed upon when the experiment has been started So Rossi knew it would be exhausted, there isn't another reaction, and it's NOT a coincidence. And this was not mentioned in the report? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ-t4DhAfrs harry
Re: [Vo]:Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elfors
A statement about the report in Swedish and English on the Elforsk website: http://www.elforsk.se/LENR-Matrapport-publicerad/ Harry On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: THIS is the kind of response I was hoping to see! Elforsk takes now the initiative to build a comprehensive Swedish research initiative. More knowledge is needed to understand and explain. Let us engage more researchers in searching coat phenomenon and then explain how it works. Ignore the skeptics. Funding and full speed ahead. - Jed
[Vo]:Lithium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium Isotopes Naturally occurring lithium is composed of two stable isotopes, 6Li and 7Li, the latter being the more abundant (92.5% natural abundance).[3][13][23] Both natural isotopes have anomalously low nuclear binding energy per nucleon compared to the next lighter and heavier elements, helium and beryllium, which means that alone among stable light elements, lithium can produce net energy through nuclear fission. The two lithium nuclei have lower binding energies per nucleon than any other stable nuclides other than deuterium and helium-3.[24] As a result of this, though very light in atomic weight, lithium is less common in the Solar System than 25 of the first 32 chemical elements.[1] Seven radioisotopes have been characterized, the most stable being 8Li with a half-life of 838 ms and 9Li with a half-life of 178 ms. All of the remainingradioactive isotopes have half-lives that are shorter than 8.6 ms. The shortest-lived isotope of lithium is 4Li, which decays through proton emission and has a half-life of 7.6 × 10−23 s.[25] 7Li is one of the primordial elements (or, more properly, primordial nuclides) produced in Big Bang nucleosynthesis. A small amount of both 6Li and 7Li are produced in stars, but are thought to be burned as fast as produced.[26] Additional small amounts of lithium of both 6Li and 7Li may be generated from solar wind, cosmic rays hitting heavier atoms, and from early solar system 7Be and 10Be radioactive decay.[27] While lithium is created in stars during the Stellar nucleosynthesis, it is further burnt. 7Li can also be generated in carbon stars.[28] Lithium isotopes fractionate substantially during a wide variety of natural processes,[29] including mineral formation (chemical precipitation), metabolism, and ion exchange. Lithium ions substitute for magnesiumand iron in octahedral sites in clay minerals, where 6Li is preferred to 7Li, resulting in enrichment of the light isotope in processes of hyperfiltration and rock alteration. The exotic 11Li is known to exhibit a nuclear halo. The process known as laser isotope separation can be used to separate lithium isotopes.[30] Nuclear weapons manufacture and other nuclear physics uses are a major source of artificial lithium fractionation, with the light isotope 6Li being retained by industry and military stockpiles to such an extent as to slightly but measurably change the 6Li to 7Li ratios even in natural sources, such as rivers. This has led to unusual uncertainty in the standardized atomic weight of lithium, since this quantity depends on the natural abundance ratios of these naturally-occurring stable lithium isotopes, as they are available in commercial lithium mineral sources.[31]
Re: [Vo]:Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elfors
Maybe it can all be done with shrunken lithium... ...Lithino harry On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com My guess as to how it works:- Hydrinohydride is a small heavy negative particle with a mass about 10 times greater than a negative muon. These form the equivalent of muonic molecules (Hydronic molecules?) with Ni Li, allowing them to approach one another close enough to facilitate neutron hopping (tunneling) in a reasonable time frame, especially at elevated temperatures. Hi Robin, I like this hypothesis as a major part of the emerging picture, assuming TIP2 is not part of an elaborate scam. f/H in some form is especially interesting as an initial step in a more complex reaction which is started by hydrogen shrinkage. f/H could be an isomer which can be contained in alumina via nickel bonding. The reaction may be sustained with SPP over the long run. SPP could supply the same intense high negative field as the f/H- or the two could work together. It is more than my opinion that this reactor design cannot enclose gaseous hydrogen when hot, as I have confirmed this from an alumina sales engineer today. This cannot work as a hydrogen reactor unless the hydrogen finds a way to bind to something at 1300 C and that feat is not easy. However ... it could work as a pychno/lithium/nickel reactor. For those who were not around when Arata's experiments were at center stage, pychno is his name for dense hydrogen. It is also known as f/H, hydrino, IRH, DDL, hydrex and probably a few other names. Presumably, pychno binds with nickel and stays in the reactor when gaseous hydrogen would escape. PLN has a nice ring to it.
Re: [Vo]:Experimental Test of a Thermodynamic Paradox
Sorry, I did not reply sooner. Thanks for the interest. Except for my encounters with Maxwell's demon this field is all new to me. Unfortunately I don't know anything about semiconductor theory. I found Sheehan's proposed epicatalytic method for violating of the second law of thermodynamics inspiring, because it only requires basic concepts from the kinetic theory of gases and chemistry to understand the gist of it. I am interested in the experimental problem of detecting a violation of the second law without necessarily having to posses a thorough understanding of the microscopic process which brings it about. For example, I wonder if what appears as energy production in LENR/CF experiments is in fact energy concentration, i.e. a 2nd law violation. Harry On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com wrote: A much wider set of principles can be found in patent applications by George Samual Levy. In particular his published provisional filing 61567455 which can be obtained at http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair is intreaging, My personal interest goes to the solid state versions of his claimed energy generators. By appying graded doped semiconductor slabs he claims to be able to withdraw electrical power by temporary periods of violated 2nd law of thermodynamics. The part that is key and needs some more prove by experts in my view is following part of his provisional filing where Levy claims that by themally shortcutting a graded doped semiconductor slab a current is flowing through such semiconducor. Quote: *An analog of Loschmidt's adiabatic gas column thought experiment can therefore* *be implemented in a semiconductor with graded doping. Carriers in such a semiconductor* *develop an adiabatic temperature profile. If the heavily doped end and lightly doped end* *of the semiconductor slab are thermally short circuited, the temperature of the* *semiconductor at each end deviates from the adiabatic profile. The relative temperature is* *colder at the heavily doped end and hotter at the lightly doped end. The hot probe effect* *results in a current flowing through the semiconductor, which can be tapped by* *electrodes. This particular implementation combines in a single semiconductor slab two* *aspects of the Loschmidt's thought experiment: the adiabatic gradient in the gas and the* *heat engine (Seebeck device).* We can further discuss if found interesting enough. On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 3:25 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: The Paradigm Energy website is now empty (although you can still download the papers at the links given on the MFMP page). In the comments section Ryan Hunt explains why: That website has since been taken down. :( They decided not to do their research openly in the interest of being able to secure private funding and guarding against getting patented out of the game by onlookers is what I heard. Harry On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 3:29 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: The authors have set up an open source organisation to develop the _epicatalysis_ phenomena which they believe is producing the heat. http://jointheparadigm.com/what-is-epicatalysis/ Harry On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 2:47 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Research (published in the peer reviewed journals Physical Review E and Foundations of Physics) mentioned on the MFMP site argues that the second law of thermodynamics is not a law but only a rule of thumb. http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/old-experiments/follow-2/412-2nd-rule-of-thumb-of-thermodynamics Harry
[Vo]:Mats Lewan describes the ash extraction
http://matslew.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/interview-on-radio-show-free-energy-quest-tonight/#comment-3469 I don’t have details minute by minute, but I was told one member of the team together with Rossi and a technician opened the reactor in a closed room. A diamond saw had to be used to cut some part before the end plug could be removed. The team member was allowed to pick 10 mg out of the charge which amounted to about 1 gram. This constraint was supposedly imposed by IH. The sample of used fuel could be chosen freely from the charge inside the reactor, which means that if the material was manipulated, all of it had to be so. Basically I guess you would have needed to swap the reactor for another identical before opening. Harry
[Vo]:Mats Lewan story on the new third party report
New scientific report on the E-Cat shows excess heat and nuclear process http://matslew.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/new-scientific-report-on-the-e-cat-shows-excess-heat-and-nuclear-process/ Harry
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat Report Leaked- Sweden
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:16 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Unfortunately there are some nuclear proliferation issues involved. In what way ? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in
Jed, don't you think it is strange that the isotopic composition of the ash closely resembles what is commercially available. Also the ash is free of other elements that were present before the run. That would make sense if the ash came from a commercial source which didn't contain these elements. This issue deserves prompt attention. Harry On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 9:58 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: Jed, it doesn't matter. If the ash is a fraud, Rossi is a fraud. Plain and simple. I'm not interesting in debating the other aspects of the experiment because of the complexities involved in calorimetry. There are no such complexities in the ash which makes the discussion very straightforward. He either switched it out or he didn't. He's either a liar or he isn't. It's pretty simple.. On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: I'm betting he's a fraud, simply because the probability of him doing this is too incredible. What he's done is nothing short of miraculous. It is more miraculous than what Fleischmann and Pons and several hundred other groups have done. Do you think they are all frauds? In any case, your hypothesis does not get a free pass. If you say this is fraud, and you want anyone here to take you seriously, you will have to suggest a plausible way in which Rossi could carry it out. I do not mean the isotope changes; I realize it is physically possible for someone to swap the samples by sleight of hand. I mean how would he fool the calorimetry for 32 days when he was not present, and when none of instruments belong to him? Is Rossi capable of changing the Stephan-Boltzmann law? Can he magically alter an IR camera? If you cannot present a plausible, step-by-step description of how he did this, you are assertion has no merit. You might was well say, it was caused by invisible unicorns. It is total inflection point in the progress of humanity and all that we know. That inflection point came on March 23, 1989. In the long view of history, Rossi is a minor incremental improvement to FP. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in
It is strange if the ash contents really do resemble what is available commercially. I read one suggestion on facebook, that the reactor could contian special compartments like a magician's trick box . One thing goes in and a different thing comes out depending on how the box is manipulated. Harry On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunate that in this day and age of trivial-cost 24/7 video surveillance that there isn't a complete audio-video log of such a critical experiment. Such precautions would, of course, be unprecedented but no more so than the purported impact of the technology. They made a complete video of the experiment, plus a IR camera video. If someone tinkered with the cell both would show it. - Jed