Re: [Vo]:questions on McKubre cells and AC component

2014-10-24 Thread H Veeder
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
wrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:


 Ok so you can design a calorimeter to detect this particular endothermic
 reaction, however, if you don't know a-priori what type of endothermic
 reaction or what energy source is involved a standard calorimeter might
 fail to detect it.

 Harry


 ​Another potential problem is that a calorimeter designed to detect an
 exothermic reaction might prevent an unknown endothermic reaction which is
 a prerequisite for the exothermic reaction. ​


 A calorimeter cannot be designed for exothermic or endothermic reactions.
 If it can measure an increase in heat, it can measure a decrease with the
 same accuracy and precision. When a reaction produces heat and then stops
 producing it, the calorimeter always shows that decline. You always see the
 power fluctuating up and down; the calorimeter always measures in both
 directions equally well. With an endothermic reaction the decline goes
 below the starting point. That's the only difference. The calorimeter does
 not care about that.

 If the cell was storing up energy, you would see it for sure. Scott Little
 showed a beautiful example of this once. He put a rechargeable battery into
 a calorimeter and charged it up. There was a deficit comparing electricity
 to the rising temperature. Then he discharged the battery through a
 resister in the cell. All the lost energy came back. The balance was close
 to zero.

 - Jed



Was the temperature of the water in the calorimeter rising during charging?



Harry


[Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat

2014-10-23 Thread H Veeder
From the wikipedia page on ​Negative Luminescence

*​((My thoughts are in double brackets​))*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_luminescence

Negative luminescence is a physical phenomenon by which an electronic
device emits less thermal radiation when an electric current is passed
through it than it does in
​ ​
thermal equilibrium (current off). When viewed by a thermal camera, an
operating negative luminescent device looks colder than its environment.


*​((Rossi's Hotcat is also an electronic device, but instead of appearing
cool to an infrared camera as described above, maybe it has the capacity to
appear cool to the eye but hot to an infrared camera.))*


​Negative luminescence is most readily observed in semiconductors. Incoming
infrared radiation is absorbed in the material by the creation of an
electron–hole pair. An electric field is used to remove the electrons and
holes from the region before they have a chance to recombine and re-emit
thermal radiation. This effect occurs most efficiently in regions of low
charge carrier density.

Negative luminescence has also been observed in semiconductors in
orthogonal electric and magnetic fields. In this case, the junction of a
diode is not necessary and the effect can be observed in bulk material. A
term that has been applied to this type of negative luminescence is
galvanomagnetic luminescence.

Negative luminescence might appear to be a violation of Kirchhoff's law of
thermal radiation. This is not true, as the law only applies in thermal
equilibrium.

Another term that has been used to describe negative luminescent devices is
Emissivity switch, as an electric current changes the effective
emissivity.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat

2014-10-23 Thread H Veeder
I have heard that the external wires glow because heat from inside the
reactor​ travels down the wire by simple conduction
But perhaps energy is actively pumped into the external wires through a
process involving negative luminescence.

Harry


On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 11:42 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 This effect sounds like a form of heat pump.  The energy is moved from
 one location to another.

 Dave



  -Original Message-
 From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Thu, Oct 23, 2014 2:33 am
 Subject: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat

   From the wikipedia page on ​Negative Luminescence

 *​((My thoughts are in double brackets​))*

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_luminescence

 Negative luminescence is a physical phenomenon by which an electronic
 device emits less thermal radiation when an electric current is passed
 through it than it does in
 ​ ​
 thermal equilibrium (current off). When viewed by a thermal camera, an
 operating negative luminescent device looks colder than its environment.


 *​ ((Rossi's Hotcat is also an electronic device, but instead of appearing
 cool to an infrared camera as described above, maybe it has the capacity to
 appear cool to the eye but hot to an infrared camera.))*


  ​Negative luminescence is most readily observed in semiconductors.
 Incoming infrared radiation is absorbed in the material by the creation of
 an electron–hole pair. An electric field is used to remove the electrons
 and holes from the region before they have a chance to recombine and
 re-emit thermal radiation. This effect occurs most efficiently in regions
 of low charge carrier density.

 Negative luminescence has also been observed in semiconductors in
 orthogonal electric and magnetic fields. In this case, the junction of a
 diode is not necessary and the effect can be observed in bulk material. A
 term that has been applied to this type of negative luminescence is
 galvanomagnetic luminescence.

 Negative luminescence might appear to be a violation of Kirchhoff's law of
 thermal radiation. This is not true, as the law only applies in thermal
 equilibrium.

 Another term that has been used to describe negative luminescent devices
 is Emissivity switch, as an electric current changes the effective
 emissivity.

  Harry



Re: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat

2014-10-23 Thread H Veeder
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote:


 The assumption that there is any equilibrium in the reactor and, hence,
 black body radiation from it surface, is not correct IMO.





Would that be equivalent to saying the surface cannot have a steady
temperature?​

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat

2014-10-23 Thread H Veeder
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:05 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:



 As Rossi has stated on many occasions, only the market can convince some
 folks of reality.


Rossi could have chosen the academic route but he hasn't.
He has *decided* the market will decide and for better or worse that is how
it will be settled.

Harry

​​


Re: [Vo]:Negative Luminescence and the HotCat

2014-10-23 Thread H Veeder
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:


 Given that Levi did know of this phenomenon – and that it could be helpful in
 the context of the experiment – all he needs to do is release the
 thermocouple data which may not support the highest gain, but probably is
 more accurate than the IR calculations (thermography). Better to salvage
 something than have everything perceived as wrong.

Since Rossi wants the marketplace to rule on the reality of the Ecat, he
and IH must have sought this test for patent reasons. At the moment it
doesn't look like the report would support his IP claims.

Harry


[Vo]:Three enlarged pictures of the hotcat.

2014-10-21 Thread H Veeder
MFMP placed enlarged three pictures of hotcat together for comparison.

https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject/photos/pcb.850773311620036/850772991620068/?type=1theater

In the report the bottom picture is contracted.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-21 Thread H Veeder
On surface the report contains as many imperfections as the alumina tube.
;-)

harry

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by
 the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like
 a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no
 other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be
 blackbody radiation.


 This monochromatic light would strike the alumina from the inside, heat it
 up, and then it would glow with white incandescence. There may be something
 very unusual about the cold fusion reaction inside (assuming there is one),
 but outside this is ordinary alumina material which does not have any
 ability to act like a laser.

 The authors have not responded to questions about issue. There may be a
 prosaic explanation. Perhaps that photo was taken before the cell heated up
 much. Let us wait to see what they say. I see no point to speculating about
 this.

 - Jed




Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-21 Thread H Veeder
A lack of caftsmanship is not necessarily antithetical to greatness.
e.g. The first transistor was crudely assembled.
http://cnx.org/resources/9120e4bccd37da6ab1c4ff90e8c498cc/firsttransistor.gif

Harry

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:15 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 On surface the report contains as many imperfections as the alumina tube.
 ;-)

 harry

 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by
 the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like
 a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no
 other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be
 blackbody radiation.


 This monochromatic light would strike the alumina from the inside, heat
 it up, and then it would glow with white incandescence. There may be
 something very unusual about the cold fusion reaction inside (assuming
 there is one), but outside this is ordinary alumina material which does not
 have any ability to act like a laser.

 The authors have not responded to questions about issue. There may be a
 prosaic explanation. Perhaps that photo was taken before the cell heated up
 much. Let us wait to see what they say. I see no point to speculating about
 this.

 - Jed





[Vo]:OT: The Man From Space

2014-10-21 Thread H Veeder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBuWTP9SQLk

Harry


Re: [Vo]: a DCE photon multiplier

2014-10-21 Thread H Veeder
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 6:30 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:



 Humor aside, I think you might find this interesting:

 http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.6364



​march 2013 test, p. 7

We note that the authors’ reasoning in the case of the thermal signature
shows a tendency
to quickly jump to interpretations and conclusions that support the
extra‐ordinary claim,
rather than to try to find more mundane explanations based on already
known, standard
physics. In this case, it seems that normal heat diffusion and transport is
sufficient to explain
the observation *(except for the perfect synchronization of electrical
power with surface*
*emitted power)*. The observed thermal time‐evolution gives no reason to
resort to
anomalous explanations.​


Harry​


[Vo]:Bioluminescent/Glowing Deep Sea Creatures

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder
Amazing Bioluminescent/Glowing Deep Sea Creatures


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD7thJVRKmQ

​Harry​


[Vo]:Anticipate updates to report

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder
Andrea Rossi
October 20th, 2014 at 10:18 AM

JCRenoir:
The Professors told me that they are discussing the questions that merit an
answer and that will answer to such questions by means of updates of the
report published on
http://www.elforsk.se/LENR-mattrapport-publicerad
Their report will be then periodically updated with all the necessary
answers.
Warm Regards,
A.R.


Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder
In this context the temperature /T/
​ is known​
a-priori
​and
 the output power /q/
​is known ​
a posteriori , so emissivity /ε/
​will​
 adjust the ouptut power downwards
​if​
 0
​ ​

​ ​
/ε/ 1

 q = ε σ T^4  A

​Harry​




On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I'm a novice at this, (so please correct me if I'm wrong), but it didn't
 take long to find references to the idea that ideal black-body radiation
 color has to be modified by an emissivity factor.

 Emissivity is a modifying factor used in single color thermometry to
 achieve a correct temperature
 reading. Emissivity, or radiating efficiency, of most materials is
 function of surface condition,
 temperature and wavelength of measurement.

 http://www-eng.lbl.gov/~dw/projects/DW4229_LHC_detector_
 analysis/calculations/emissivity2.pdf

 Likewise, aluminum oxide (alumina) has an emissivity coefficient of  0.8
 according to this reference:

 http://www.gphysics.net/emissivity-coefficient

 and 0.75 according to this reference:

 http://www.coe.montana.edu/me/faculty/sofie/teaching/me360/
 Pyrometry%20Emissivity%20Notes.pdf

 So, as I understand it the emissivity factor must be applied to an  ideal
 black-box foruma as follows:

 The radiation energy per unit time from a *blackbody* is proportional to
 the fourth power of the absolute temperature http://www.
 engineeringtoolbox.com/temperature-d_291.html and can be expressed with
 *Stefan-Boltzmann Law * as

/q = σ T^4 A/ /(1)/

/where/

/q/ /= heat transfer per unit time (W)/

/σ/ /= 5.6703 10^-8 (W/m^2 K^4 ) - *The* *Stefan-Boltzmann Constant*/

/T/ /= absolute temperature Kelvin (K)/

/A/ /= area of the emitting body (m^2 )/

 For objects other than ideal blackbodies ('gray bodies') the
 *Stefan-Boltzmann Law* can be expressed as

/q = ε σ T^4  A / /(2)/

/where/

/ε/ /= emissivity of the object (one for a black body)/



http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html

So, doesn't the color chart have to be adjusted to accommodate the
emissivity factor? That would put an observed value of 950C at
around 1250C - 1350C, considering the conversion from C to K back to C.

Craig



 On 10/20/2014 12:08 PM, Brad Lowe wrote:

 Rossi responds to the claim that the color of the alumina at 1300°C
 is white heat” by saying: stupidity, Alumina becomes white heat only
 when it melts at 2070°C and compare it to the glass is an elementary
 mistake

 http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=853cpage=14#comment-1013594

 - Brad





Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com
wrote:

 On 10/20/2014 04:30 PM, H Veeder wrote:

 In this context the temperature /T/
 ​ is known​
 a-priori
 ​ and
  the output power /q/
 ​ is known ​
 a posteriori , so emissivity /ε/
 ​ will​
  adjust the ouptut power downwards
 ​ if​
  0
 ​ ​
 
 ​ ​
 /ε/ 1

  q = ε σ T^4  A

 ​Harry​


 Right, but the internal temperature could be at 1300C but only glow at an
 apparent 950C; isn't that how emissivity would change the observed visible
 color from that seen on this color chart?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/
 File:Incandescence_Color.jpg

 Craig




/q/ is calculated from T which is the measured surface temperature. It is
not necessary to know the internal temperature. A colour chart should only
be used when you already know the cause of the illumination. Incandescent
illumination is caused by heat.

This is a New World so we should be careful how we classify the native
life.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder
Maybe Jed is right. See this subjective colour temperature chart:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#Subjective_color_to_the_eye_of_a_black_body_thermal_radiator
​


Contrast with this chart which are presumably the true temperature
colours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#mediaviewer/File:Blackbody-colours-vertical.svg


When does the eye percieve orange light as white light? Does it has
something to do with the intensity of the organge light?

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder
​





On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com
wrote:

 But the question I've been trying to ask, isn't the color adjusted by the
 emissivity factor? So if the emissivity is 0.75, then doesn't this mean
 that the observed color is less than the actual temperature?



​

As I have already reasoned the answer is no, because in this situation T is
given (i.e.measured) and q is calculated so the emissivity factor will only
adjust the output power downwards.  If q was known, say by flow
calorimetry, then the emissivity factor would bump T upwards.


Harry


Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

  If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside
 surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the
 inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color
 at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim.

 I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the
 light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be
 white.




​ok, I now see your point. It doesn't matter if the r
eactor is also phosphorescent or fluorescent or some other escent, as long
as the *surface* is heated to a temperature of ~1400C then the *surface*
should appear white...according to this subjective colour temperature
chart:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#Subjective_color_to_the_eye_of_a_black_body_thermal_radiator
​

Compare it to this chart which I presume is the true colour temperature:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#mediaviewer/File:Blackbody-colours-vertical.svg


Harry​


Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

  From: H Veeder

 Ø   Other examples of light emitting bodies which* do not* follow the
 incandescent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies.

 Yup. And as far back as 1886 it was noticed that alumina, in one form, was
 phosphorescent. A paper by Crookes (the one of radiometer fame):

 On the Crimson Line of Phosphorescent Alumina. 1886.

 Today with the benefit of 130 years we realize that the alumina tested
 back then had slight chromium content – think ruby - and today the
 message is that an aluminum paste– such as applied to Inconel wires
 embedded in a alumina tube housing – containing trace chromium - can
 provide overwhelming phosphorescent red coloration… and thus the tube is
 not in keeping with an incandescent temperature determination.

 In short –this Levi report is miles away from being a scientific paper.
 The details of fabrication of the tube are hidden, and the reddish glow
 does not necessarily mean lower temperature if there is ruby phosphorescen
 ce in a paste or coating.

  ​
​​If the surface temperature is 1400C then according to the textbooks, as
Jed says, the surface should be glowing white. Other things could be
happening too, but they don't alter the standard expectation.

Either this incongruity is caused by a measurement error or something
entirely new is happening. I've proposed other types of emissions but they
don't address the issue of the missing white light.

harry


Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature

2014-10-20 Thread H Veeder

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 But the question I've been trying to ask, isn't the color adjusted by the
 emissivity factor? So if the emissivity is 0.75, then doesn't this mean
 that the observed color is less than the actual temperature?





​Sorry, now I see your true question. (I was distracted by the formula ​you
provided.)
Based on the passage you cited it appears an emissivity correction would
bump up the temperature.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
Should the reactor radiate like a normal incandescent body ​of 1400C or
does the reactor radiate according to some other rules?
Jed (and Mizuno?) assume it behaves like a normal incandescent body of
1400C so it should glow white. Since it doesn't glow white they assume the
output power estimate based on infrared light measurements is invalid.
However, even if it were glowing white, the visible light contribution
could be ignored and the power output could be (under)estimated from just
the infrared light measurements.

Harry

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:19 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 I saw the photo of the block and of course it seems to be similar as
 well.  I am not convinced that the casting that was treated for 12 hours
 and quickly removed had time to cool that much.  I may be wrong, but the
 first reference I located showed roughly the same color as well.  This also
 matched what was observed by the testers.

 I see evidence building up that what the testers saw might have been
 reasonable.   Also, I recall that the sun is supposed to appear near white
 and it is far hotter than 1400 C.

 We need to locate an expert in this field to settle the question.

 Dave



  -Original Message-
 From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:07 am
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

   David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals.   There is a
 picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from
 the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours.


  I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was
 taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C.

 Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800
 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900
 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar:


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg

  - Jed




Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
In the report they said they were unable to attach a thermocouple to the
exterior of tube.
They should have put the test on hold until they figured out how to do it.
Harry

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 3:04 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 This is the question that I have been wrestling with for so long Harry.
 I may have found a method of getting to the real temperature value.  The
 technique need a lot more calibration before it can be trusted.

 Dave



  -Original Message-
 From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 3:00 am
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

  Should the reactor radiate like a normal incandescent body ​of 1400C or
 does the reactor radiate according to some other rules?
 Jed (and Mizuno?) assume it behaves like a normal incandescent body of
 1400C so it should glow white. Since it doesn't glow white they assume the
 output power estimate based on infrared light measurements is invalid.
 However, even if it were glowing white, the visible light contribution
 could be ignored and the power output could be (under)estimated from just
 the infrared light measurements.

  Harry

 On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:19 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
 wrote:

 I saw the photo of the block and of course it seems to be similar as
 well.  I am not convinced that the casting that was treated for 12 hours
 and quickly removed had time to cool that much.  I may be wrong, but the
 first reference I located showed roughly the same color as well.  This also
 matched what was observed by the testers.

 I see evidence building up that what the testers saw might have been
 reasonable.   Also, I recall that the sun is supposed to appear near white
 and it is far hotter than 1400 C.

 We need to locate an expert in this field to settle the question.

 Dave



  -Original Message-
 From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:07 am
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

   David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals.   There is a
 picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from
 the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours.


  I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was
 taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C.

 Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800
 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900
 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar:


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg

  - Jed





[Vo]:MFMP on Lithium

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
From the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project facebook page:
---


Is this the catalyst?

As we reported in a previous Facebook post, we know for a fact that Pons
and Fleischmann had a key Lithium compound in their lab, but that is not
all the data points that have encouraged us to think that Lithium is
important in apparent high-yield LENR. We also know that it was being
proposed openly in 2001 alongside Ni+H and AL2O3.

On December the 14th 2012, team member Bob Greenyer experienced something
that has haunted him ever since... after making a presentation in Rome,
announcing the MFMPs first seemingly positive result by Mathieu Valat with
Celani wire in France:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-eKgEVY868list=UUEy09JW5XAd95JmknU1JOeQ
https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DH-eKgEVY868%26list%3DUUEy09JW5XAd95JmknU1JOeQh=qAQF4uy3venc=AZNboU243icfPambK44v1N0-ZQypgpGtUGkmUMuUfdeAEVf1wG8zbKeOxQicDLiu8gh7gbIgU-SNf8ypY0bDDenZ8w3fB64feoRpOrDgbbbP2IJCZB1p-cBG_e86Hph9c2amf0nqNlmtHbqNAWLCrSrks=1

As Bob left the meeting room, just a few paces out of the door, a guy
approached him quickly from behind and without introduction said something
and then walked off. In Bob's own words:

when I presented in Rome in December 2012, someone came up to me and gave
me a nudge and a wink and said I should add an alkali metal, I said did he
mean something like Lithium and he would neither confirm or deny.

The man might have been from the military since the presentation was in a
services facility.

Moving to early 2014

Well before this report was published, Piantelli made an addition to his
granted patent citing that Lithium was the best way to enhance the effect
in a Ni+H thermally excited gas phase system.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20140098917
http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fpatents%2FUS20140098917h=HAQFKYeBCenc=AZOdm4MsoU_CBjNS_sNzTQC_ZWdYymyDMittunqbXOwBk8yA6FapC_KJhyzO6v7uU4gn5Qpm-9yrZNlzoDiOXtTB23c9p-ae1kr9u7bwCiqfwRP3gCzFOINUQAgY1Xtg9_cQo-gjQYwGXNj0ML4bi0vrs=1

In light of the mysterious guy and the publication of Piantellis patent
addition, the MFMP was inspired to look at previous experiments and it was
noted that Quartz cell in the US did not produce any apparent excess heat,
nor did SKINNERS cells that were in steel, when the Borosilicate glass used
by Mathieu appeared to... could it be the Boron content that was critical,
since Piantelli notes that Boron enhances the effect also - but to a lesser
degree.

Then we found out that Borosilicate can have Lithium Carbonate added - up
to 5%!, was Celani or Mathieu using that type?

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Pyrex.html
http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madehow.com%2FVolume-7%2FPyrex.htmlh=LAQFabtV4enc=AZOrmfulqyvZne4j6ZdSmFxUNtiABo5jUe8aSlX1K9bT_xky7CGv2O_QoQyvjD-0ucqQ9LgO3UmPvFs1lWQKgDP9V6tNm9s4Zxzs8cL2RTmpD4nbTAYMkKRgV2ONLjZKY9w9AF0q4NrynNAy5P5zSs9ss=1

Anyhow - that set us on a determined path to include Lithium compounds in
future research, after we had first, fully tested without.

Then we found that Celani was using Lepidolite - a mineral mica from a very
old manufacturer - one of the main sources of Lithium - to support his
wires in his cells. Commercial mica today generally comes from non lithium
baring mica sources. This might have explained his slightly higher apparent
excess.

Then we found out that Celani was getting higher apparent excess by having
fine borosilicate/mica strapped next to his wires.

We were also aware of the chemo-nuclear work of Hideotsugo Ikegami and his
use of Lithium.

And Bob Higgins then noted

Li2SO4 was an ingredient to the electrolyte in the Patterson cell to make
the water conductive.

Added weight came from an article written for e-cat world, Rick Allen which
noted

There are additional bits of information that point toward the possibility
that lithium is utilized. One interesting fact is that .4% lithium was
found in the used “charge” that Rossi supplied to Sven Kullander for
analysis. In an unused sample, no lithium was present. There are two
possibilities here. One is that the lithium was a transmutation product.
The second is that the unused charge was never in a reactor so it did not
contain lithium. I propose the hypothesis that the lithium is added
separately to the nickel powder (perhaps by coating the walls of the
reactor) and that when a high temperature is reached the lithium melts and
mixes with the nickel powder. In current systems, there may be both lithium
on the walls of the reactor and a tablet of lithium hydride.

You can read the rest of the article here:

http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/04/26/lithium-the-case-for-an-e-cat-catalyst-guest-post/

Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
We need to enlarge our model space rather than limiting ourselves to one
model that is inconsistent with the observations.

Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk.
The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red
like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina.

With this model of illumination the the output power estimates appear valid.

Harry

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 4:11 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 In the report they said they were unable to attach a thermocouple to the
 exterior of tube.


 But there is one inside. I asked whether they have readings from it.

 - Jed




[Vo]:OT: Where are we?

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
Are you ok? 'cause this place can sometimes make people feel a bit...
...you know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3bGYljQ5Uw


Harry


Re: [Vo]:MFMP on Lithium

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
well done.
harry

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I must have produce 500 posts identifying an alkali metal as the Rossi
 secret catalyst and even better, I provided the theory behind that
 recommendation. Lithium is a simplistic conclusion to draw from the Rossi
 TPT results.


 ​snip​


Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote:

  Jed--

 I hope you get an answer.  This question has caused me to resist getting
 into a give and take about the camera data.  The thermocouple must have
 been used to calibrate the camera at operating conditions, IF IT WERE
 WORKING.  The lack of this obvious information suggests the T/C was not
 working properly.  They either work on don't from my experience.

 The question being so simple puts them in a bind to answer.  If it didn't
 work they should, say so.  If it did work properly they should provide the
 data.  Rossi claims there were millions of data points.  It would nice to
 request that they publish their data base of all the raw data.  It all
 can't be in the published document if there was as much as suggested by
 Rossi.

 However, he may have had some restrictions on the data they could publish
 to protect revealing the detailed operating conditions.  The researchers
 doing the test would have access to the data as it was accumulated and
 would have used it to justify their conclusions, despite leaving room for
 skeptics to rail on.


​I start with the naive (trusting) assumption that everything the authors
of the Lugano report say ​about the reactor is based on fact rather than
guesswork, but they can't reveal why they know them to be factual because
it might reveal important IP. Unfortunately, such a situation will
stimulate the more distrustful skeptics to imagine incompetence and/or
misdirection.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:


 Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk.
 The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red
 like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina.


 It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is
 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white.
 It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with
 the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the
 textbooks claim.

 I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the
 light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be
 white.

 - Jed


​This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not be
an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by
receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot
kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it.  On the other hand the
Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent
body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C -
1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified
with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be
underestimated.

The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue of
how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship
between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the
surface temperature and output power.

Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption about
the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The
presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations
of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate
assumption.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the
incandascent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence


Harry



On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:27 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:


 Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at
 dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it
 glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of
 alumina.


 It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is
 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white.
 It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with
 the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the
 textbooks claim.

 I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the
 light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be
 white.

 - Jed


 ​This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not
 be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by
 receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot
 kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it.  On the other hand the
 Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent
 body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C -
 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified
 with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be
 underestimated.

 The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue
 of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship
 between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the
 surface temperature and output power.

 Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption
 about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The
 presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations
 of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate
 assumption.

 Harry







Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature

2014-10-19 Thread H Veeder
Many different types of Luminescence are listed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminescence

quote
Luminescence is emission of light by a substance not resulting from heat;
it is thus a form of cold body radiation. It can be caused by chemical
reactions, electrical energy, subatomic motions, or stress on a crystal.
This distinguishes luminescence fromincandescence, which is light emitted
by a substance as a result of heating. Historically, radioactivity was
thought of as a form of radio-luminescence, although it is today
considered to be separate since it involves more than electromagnetic
radiation. The term 'luminescence' was introduced in 1888 by Eilhard
Wiedemann




On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 1:16 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the
 incandascent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence


 Harry



 On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:27 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:


 Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at
 dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it
 glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of
 alumina.


 It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is
 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white.
 It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with
 the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the
 textbooks claim.

 I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the
 light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be
 white.

 - Jed


 ​This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not
 be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by
 receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot
 kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it.  On the other hand the
 Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent
 body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C -
 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified
 with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be
 underestimated.

 The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue
 of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship
 between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the
 surface temperature and output power.

 Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption
 about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The
 presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations
 of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate
 assumption.

 Harry








Re: [Vo]:To Arms

2014-10-18 Thread H Veeder
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 2:25 AM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote:



 James, it's just so tiring.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uai7M4RpoLU

 Let them continue to hallucinate;
 their typing is the only thing keeping the economy going
 while a new infrastructure is being built right under their noses!



​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no_elVGGgW8

Harry​


Re: [Vo]:Hotcat melting miracle

2014-10-18 Thread H Veeder
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:



 The isotopic analyses are a little amazing, and, as far as I can tell, do
 not give indications of a gradient effect in the 6Li and 62Ni species.



​
appendix 3
measured abundance in ash sample
6Li - 92.1%
7Li - 7.9%
​62Ni - 98.7%​


appendix 4
measured abundance in ash sample
6Li - 57.5%
7Li - 42.5%
62Ni - 99.3%
​
For me the lingo is hard to parse but if Robert Ellefson is correct then
the numbers in appendix 3 are surface measurements and the numbers in
appendix ​4 are bulk measurements. Can you fake such a distribution by
simply purchasing enriched samples?

Harry


Harry



​


Re: [Vo]:Hotcat melting miracle

2014-10-18 Thread H Veeder
Dave and Axil,

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I can't believe that the independent science team could ever make a
 mistake that bad: measuring a reactor temperature that as actually at 700C
 as being 1400C.


​​

​Ordinarily a surface at 1400C should glow visibly white but in this case
the visible glow is red. If the power output is the same as that associated
with a 1400C surface then the missing energy might be in the form of extra
UV emissions.

Harry​







 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There was a directly observable miracle that showed unmelted nano
 structure on the surface of those nickel micro particles that should have
 melted at 1000C and yet where photographed after days of 1400C reactor
 operating temperatures. Those temperature differences are TOO LARGE to be
 due to poor experimental measurement or technique.


 Your imagery is vivid, but you've assumed that the experiment actually
 ran at 1400C.  This is one of the questions that is up for debate.
 Misdirection is not yet established given what we know.

 Eric





Re: [Vo]:Hotcat melting miracle

2014-10-18 Thread H Veeder
Where are the neutrons?

Must be a mistake.


Where is the white glow?

Must be another mistake.


Harry


[Vo]:Macro-Micro cosmos

2014-10-18 Thread H Veeder
Poetic infusion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns4kEuz7G3E

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature

2014-10-18 Thread H Veeder
_Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose
temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum.

e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white
light so it has colour temperature of white.


_Incadescence_ ​is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given
temperature.

An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared .

harry

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi Dave,
 Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence
 Regards.

 On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
 wrote:

 Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature.  Unless
 I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is
 quite orange.  This is in line with what is reported in the latest test.

 Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be
 orange?  I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss.

 The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature
 .

 Dave




 --
 Patrick

 www.tRacePerfect.com
 The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
 The quickest puzzle ever!



Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature

2014-10-18 Thread H Veeder
The caption under the picture doesn't make it clear how long the casting
has been out of the oven
Steel castings after undergoing 12 hour 1,200 °C (2,190 °F) heat
treatment.

I recently took up pottery so I know that when the temperature is 1200 the
clay become less orange and more white.

Harry



On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:37 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 How do we reconcile that the color observed by people and I assume normal
 cameras is orange for the casting at 1200 C in the second sample I found?
 We are discussing the color shown in the pictures instead of the peak
 emission wavelength are we not?

 Why would you expect the device to look white hot when a known metal
 casting looks orange hot at approximately the same temperature?  What am I
 missing?

 Dave



  -Original Message-
 From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 12:31 am
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature

  _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose
 temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum.

  e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is
 white light so it has colour temperature of white.


 _Incadescence_ ​is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given
 temperature.

  An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared .

 harry

 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Hi Dave,
 Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence
 Regards.

 On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
 wrote:

 Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature.  Unless
 I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is
 quite orange.  This is in line with what is reported in the latest test.

 Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not
 be orange?  I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a
 loss.

 The article is located at:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature.

 Dave




  --
 Patrick

 www.tRacePerfect.com
 The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
 The quickest puzzle ever!





Re: [Vo]:Why doesn't Rossi makes a self feeding Hot Cat and ends the controversy.

2014-10-17 Thread H Veeder
This assumes insulating it will have no adverse effect on the new fire,
but excessive insulation could extinguish it.
A good test to perform on the Hotcat would be to add the insulation *after*
start up.

Harry

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:24 PM, jwin...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au wrote:

 I don't know why Rossi doesn't do this.  I think he must hardly have any
 ingenuity - or the scientists/engineers that are in a position to advise
 him!  (Or you could think of more insulting terms).

 To convert the output heat to electricity, and then convert it back to
 input heat would have to be the craziest approach imaginable to use!

 To feed the output heat back in as input heat all you need to do is
 insulate the device.  What could be easier than that!?

 Then to stop it running away and melting down all you need to do is pump
 water or blow gas through it to cool it down in a controlled manner with a
 thermostatically controlled switch (which could even be a passive device
 like the old thermostats used in the cooling systems of auto-mobile
 engines).  The cooling necessary to prevent melt-down represents your
 output energy.

 If you need some electrical excitation in addition to plain old
 resistive heating, then this would be a very small component and could
 easily be subtracted from the output energy to determine the energy
 balance.  But the fact that the system runs away if it is allowed to get
 too hot - even after the excitation has been turned off - proves that
 this excitation is not really required.

 On 18/10/2014 7:32 AM, Paul Breed wrote:

 Closing the loop with a hot side temperature of 1200C and a COP of 3, is
 right on the very edge of possible...

 You need close to 50% of theoretical carnot efficiency...

 100C cold 1200C hot gives carnot of  0.76

 Best possible heat to mechanical work..  (3*.76) = 2.28
 Best possible Work to electricity   0.95

 gives 2.116   so to break even close the loop and have ZERO excess energy
 you would need to get to 46% of carnot
 Commercial large scale power plants don't get to 46% of carnot

 Using something really simple like thermo electric (seebeck)  generator
 would require a COP of  20.2 to get to break even
 assuming that electrical conversion efficency was 99%





Re: [Vo]:Greenhouse HotCat

2014-10-17 Thread H Veeder
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:31 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 Thanks for the heads up Harry.  I wonder if others on the list are seeing
 my new topics being sent to spam.

 The question that I am asking is whether or not there are clues to the
 behavior of the temperature and power output correlation from the latest
 HotCat tests revealed by greenhouse gas behavior of the Earth.  The Earth
 is warmer than it should be according to normal black body radiation
 effects.  We attribute the reason as being due to incoming visible light
 energy being converted into heat at the surface and atmosphere which is
 partially captured.  Less radiation power is emitted into space than the
 temperature suggests for a grey body.



An inert body is in thermal equilibrium with its surroundings and its
temperature is constant. The only way for it's temperature to change is if
it's thermal properties change. This is true if the inert body is black or
grey bodies.



 Does the variation in the shape of the spectrum as the temperature
 increases effectively destroy the calibration established by the dummy
 HotCat run?  Is there a simple way to take the error into account?



​If an error has been made then the error resides in the estimate of the
thermal properties of the HotCat.
If no error has been made, then the HotCat is not an inert body it is an
active body.

As an active body it is able to elevate its temperature by either
generating its own energy or absorbing more energy from its surroundings
then it is emitting.
The latter scenario is considered impossible according to the second law of
thermodynamics.

Harry​


[Vo]:Giant Rydberg excitons in the copper oxide Cu2O

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v514/n7522/full/nature13832.html

Giant Rydberg excitons in the copper oxide Cu2O

Nature 514, 343–347 (16 October 2014) doi:10.1038/nature13832Received 05
March 2014 Accepted 02 September 2014 Published online 15 October 2014

A highly excited atom having an electron that has moved into a level with
large principal quantum number is a hydrogen-like object, termed a Rydberg
atom. The giant size of Rydberg atoms1leads to huge interaction effects.
Monitoring these interactions has provided insights into atomic and
molecular physics on the single-quantum level. Excitons—the fundamental
optical excitations in semiconductors2, consisting of an electron and a
positively charged hole—are the condensed-matter analogues of hydrogen.
Highly excited excitons with extensions similar to those of Rydberg atoms
are of interest because they can be placed and moved in a crystal with high
precision using microscopic energy potential landscapes. The interaction of
such Rydberg excitons may allow the formation of ordered exciton phases or
the sensing of elementary excitations in their surroundings on a quantum
level. Here we demonstrate the existence of Rydberg excitons in the copper
oxide Cu2O, with principal quantum numbers as large as n = 25. These states
have giant wavefunction extensions (that is, the average distance between
the electron and the hole) of more than two micrometres, compared to about
a nanometre for the ground state. The strong dipole–dipole interaction
between such excitons is indicated by a blockade effect in which the
presence of one exciton prevents the excitation of another in its vicinity.


[Vo]:Sunspots

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
Sunspots are examples of unusually cool regions persisting in hotter
surroundings, so it is not beyond all experience to say that the
temperature of the wire inside the reactor remains below its melting
temperature.

Harry


[Vo]:Is the beginning of the end of the ECat saga?

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
Doesn't look good for Rossi, but I am not sure I understand Pomp's point.
Is Pomp saying Rossi is
​rewriting history to make it look ​
​
Ni62 was present in the ash of his earlier
​EC
at?

http://stephanpomp.blogspot.se/2014/10/mr-rossi-i-admire-you.html

​Harry​


Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
So Rossi's quasi-scam is to jerk around a bunch of scientists with phony
reactors so as to throw off his competitors?

harry


On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:


 From: Randy Wuller

 So for example, let’s say Rossi knew that by setting up the
 constraints associated with testing the ash, (1% from stuff that fell out),
 everyone would be misled as to what was actually happening.  That’s more
 appropriately described as protecting your IP.

 Randy - I never said anything about a crime. Why are you? None of the TV
 scams I mentioned were prosecuted as a crime, as far as I know. If
 dishonesty was a crime, we would have to lock up half of the politicians in
 DC.

 Make that: more than half. And also - aren’t you assuming that he is not
 misleading his funder, as well?

 Would your opinion change if you found out that his royalty agreement was a
 long-term deal structured around performance milestones?

 I have no idea what his deal consists of, but I doubt if he can walk away
 with a large sum without some kind of verification that the device actually
 works. It is normal business practice with many inventions that a large
 portion of the total royalty payment will in escrow pending milestones
 and/or will be delayed until cash-flow starts, meaning that a commercial
 product emerges.

 Jones




Re: [Vo]:Is the beginning of the end of the ECat saga?

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

   *From:* H Veeder



 Doesn't look good for Rossi, but I am not sure I understand Pomp's point.
 Is Pomp saying Rossi is  rewriting history to make it look like​ Ni62 was
 present in the ash of his earlier EC at?
 http://stephanpomp.blogspot.se/2014/10/mr-rossi-i-admire-you.html



 ​Harry​



 No, he is crystal clear that he thinks Rossi is cheating :



 “All this leaves only one conclusion: you were playing tricks then (trying
 to give the impression that copper was produced) and you are playing tricks
 now (trying to have people believe all nickel somehow converted into Ni-62)”





We all know now the copper was not the result of transmutation because it
came from contamination. This was a mistake which he didn't want to
acknowledge because *he* felt embarrassed by it. Rossi is someone who
experiences a lot of shame when he makes even an honest mistake, and this
causes him to either deny the mistake or react angrily. I am not sure why
he is so sensitive when it comes to making honest mistakes. Perhaps the
mafia exploited one of his honest mistakes and this led his erroneous
conviction. The important thing to remember is that making mistakes is not
bad thing in science.

Harry


[Vo]:OT: The Courage to Create

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
The Courage to Create by Rollo May
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auOW5tNFjZg


Psychoanalyst Rollo May~We Lack Mystery!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw0SCmoj9tc

​Harry​


[Vo]:OT: ​Brené Brown - Embracing Vulnerability

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
​​
Brené Brown - Embracing Vulnerability

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO6n9HmG0qM


​Harry​


Re: [Vo]:OT: The Courage to Create

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
sorry the link to
​_
Psychoanalyst Rollo May~We Lack Mystery!_ should be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi9NAzMJbds

Harry


On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:11 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Courage to Create by Rollo May
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auOW5tNFjZg


 ​
 ​
 Psychoanalyst Rollo May~We Lack Mystery!
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw0SCmoj9tc

 ​Harry​




Re: [Vo]:OT: The Phone Cops

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:

 To see how truly powerful TPC is, you have to watch this:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_President's_Analyst



ThePhoneCompany
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbbpjd52atwfeature=youtu.bet=5m59s

Maybe this inspired the scene from WKRP

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Greenhouse HotCat

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
Dave, for some reason when you start a new thread your message appears in
my spam folder.


I am not sure what you are asking, but the Earth supposedly generates some
heat too. I am not sure how much of this heat contributes to the global
temperature.

Harry



On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 A thought occurred to me this morning concerning the temperature
 measurements and output power calculations from the latest HotCat testing.
 What if the same general type of effect is working in the CAT test that is
 revealed by the Earth and the greenhouse gas process?

 We assume that the Earth is pretty much in equilibrium where the power
 arriving from the sun is matching the power being radiated from our
 planet.  The reason that we are not frozen at this time is because the
 radiation spectrum is modified by the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere
 which make our temperature a lot warmer than would be expected for a black
 body in open space.

 Perhaps something can be learned from this comparison and that is why I
 open it to discussion amount this group of knowlegible and diverse folks.

 One might initially ask if the calibration technique used during the
 testing of the HotCat would correct for the potential problems.  Why would
 a calibration of the heat emitted within the IR region not hold to a
 reasonable degree at higher temperatures?  Could the change in the shape of
 the spectrum result in a large error?

 Have mercy on the messenger.

 Dave



Re: [Vo]:Greenhouse HotCat

2014-10-16 Thread H Veeder
Dave, for some reason when you start a new thread your message appears in
my spam folder.


I am not sure what you are asking, but the Earth supposedly generates some
heat too. I am not sure how much of this heat contributes to the global
temperature.

Harry

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 A thought occurred to me this morning concerning the temperature
 measurements and output power calculations from the latest HotCat testing.
 What if the same general type of effect is working in the CAT test that is
 revealed by the Earth and the greenhouse gas process?

 We assume that the Earth is pretty much in equilibrium where the power
 arriving from the sun is matching the power being radiated from our
 planet.  The reason that we are not frozen at this time is because the
 radiation spectrum is modified by the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere
 which make our temperature a lot warmer than would be expected for a black
 body in open space.

 Perhaps something can be learned from this comparison and that is why I
 open it to discussion amount this group of knowlegible and diverse folks.

 One might initially ask if the calibration technique used during the
 testing of the HotCat would correct for the potential problems.  Why would
 a calibration of the heat emitted within the IR region not hold to a
 reasonable degree at higher temperatures?  Could the change in the shape of
 the spectrum result in a large error?

 Have mercy on the messenger.

 Dave



[Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
Some people suspect that the resistor wire can't be Inconel because they
are predicted to melt at the reactor's operating temperature. However,
since we know the resistor wire casts a shadow in the alumina, the
temperature of the wire remains below the operating temperature and
therefore can't melt.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
If the wire were the brightest area there would be no excess heat.

Harry

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 how do you know this?  How do you know the the wire is not the brightest
 area?

 On 15 October 2014 15:06, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Some people suspect that the resistor wire can't be Inconel because they
 are predicted to melt at the reactor's operating temperature. However,
 since we know the resistor wire casts a shadow in the alumina, the
 temperature of the wire remains below the operating temperature and
 therefore can't melt.

 Harry





Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
​If the wire inside the reactor was hot enough to glow it should produce a
more uniform spiral glow along the entire length of the tube.


Harry

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Additionally, look at the darkened photo, the wire exterior to the reactor
 sourrounded by cooler materials to radiate to are brighter than the bright
 wires in the reactor.  Hard to believe it would be colder inside the
 reactor surrounded by relatively hotter materials that are harder to
 radiate to.  I think that is pretty strong indication that it is the wires
 that are the bright areas.

 On 15 October 2014 20:14, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I am looking at high zoom at the same photos and finding it easy to draw
 the opposite conclusion.  Confirmation bias on both our parts :)
 I think it is equivocal at best.

 On 15 October 2014 19:52, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 If you zoom in very closely on the hot reactor photos you can see the
 the dark lines are of uniform width, continuity and shade.  I am 95%
 confident that is the shadow of the coil.  The light areas change in
 brightness, width, etc.

 On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Robert Lynn 
 robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 how do you know this?  How do you know the the wire is not the
 brightest area?

 On 15 October 2014 15:06, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Some people suspect that the resistor wire can't be Inconel because
 they are predicted to melt at the reactor's operating temperature. 
 However,
 since we know the resistor wire casts a shadow in the alumina, the
 temperature of the wire remains below the operating temperature and
 therefore can't melt.

 Harry








[Vo]:Thermography

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
If the thermography was done reasonably well, then it is proving to be more
than just a means of measuring excess heat, it is also a means of probing
the LENR phenomena.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
Thanks for posting your ideas.
I hadn't seen that picture of the march 2013 reactor sitting on the scale
with heating coils visible.

Why don't we just accept that the authors of the 2014 test also know enough
about the construction of the reactor to say that the dark bands align with
the wires?

Harry


On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 I wrote up my analysis of the banding :  (Draft -- I'll rename it later).

 http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_hotcat_oct2014_141014a.php

 Short answer : we don't even know whether the bright bands line up with
 the wires, or the gaps between them.

 There are multiple explanations, which depend on the structure used to
 hold the wires, and on the properties of everything.

 Insufficient data !




Re: [Vo]:E-cat : Minimum COP assuming worst mistakes possible

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
You might say I am splitting hairs but what Mckubre has written here is
technically incorrect.
The Stephan-Boltzman law is relationship between temperature and output
power.
It is not a relationship between input power and output power so you can't
use the law by itself
to infer any relationship between input and output power. Additional
assumptions/laws are required.

Harry

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:08 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 You have a good understanding in my opinion.  There is no doubt that
 energy is being generated within the core.

 Dave



  -Original Message-
 From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com
 To: Vortex List vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wed, Oct 15, 2014 12:59 pm
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:E-cat : Minimum COP assuming worst mistakes possible

  A calibration curve will bend down. It never bends up.

  this mean that temperature grow less than the power ?

  this mean that when you increase the power, and if temperature grows
 much more that before, something anomalous is happening ?

  Either excess heat, or some external blanket effect (increase of thermal
 resistance)...
 but convection does not diminish with heat?


  did I undertand well?


 2014-10-14 22:09 GMT+02:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com:

  Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote:


- is there a simple way , with minimal assumption, to be sure that
the COP1

  Look at the color. If it is dull red, it may be around 750°C which is
 where you would expect it to be in a straight line extrapolation
 calibration up to 800 W. If it is white it has to be around 1300°C, which
 is far higher than the calibration indicates it should be. A calibration
 curve will bend down. It never bends up. McKubre pointed this out:

   On page 7 of the report the authors state: “Subsequent calculation
 proved that increasing the input by roughly 100 watts had caused an
 increase of about 700 watts in power emitted.” This is interesting. The
 shape of the output vs. input power curve is observed (or implied) to
 strongly curve upwards in a manner completely inconsistent with the
 Stefan-Boltzmann law for radiative heat loss. It is also inconsistent with
 simple convective heat transfer but several issues need to be addressed
 before we can claim this as a qualitative or even “semi-quantitative”
 measure of excess heat production . . .


  Note that incandescent colors are similar for all materials.

  - Jed





Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
Look at this way the paper is getting peer reviewed in public. Hopefully
they will revise the paper to address the criticisms.

Harry

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 11:58 PM, Robert Lynn 
robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 Nullis in verba. :)  I believe my eyes more than others words.  In finding
 so many potential faults with so little published information (they had a
 month to investigate!!) I can only say that I am unimpressed by the
 critical observational skills or reporting of the testers.  If they had
 approached this demo with a more critical mindset I might be more inclined
 to believe them.  There is a mountain to climb to convince the world, and
 they have not really helped that process.

 On 16 October 2014 11:41, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks for posting your ideas.
 I hadn't seen that picture of the march 2013 reactor sitting on the scale
 with heating coils visible.

 Why don't we just accept that the authors of the 2014 test also know
 enough about the construction of the reactor to say that the dark bands
 align with the wires?

 Harry


 On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 I wrote up my analysis of the banding :  (Draft -- I'll rename it
 later).

 http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_hotcat_oct2014_141014a.php

 Short answer : we don't even know whether the bright bands line up with
 the wires, or the gaps between them.

 There are multiple explanations, which depend on the structure used to
 hold the wires, and on the properties of everything.

 Insufficient data !






Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
​You could explain the glow pattern with those assumptions but you would
still need to explain away the excess heat.

Harry

​


On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Robert Lynn 
robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 Not if it is touching the walls of inner or outer alumina tube in places,
 intermittent contact due to vagaries of original wire winding around inner
 tube and subsequent large differential thermal expansion so that the wire
 is quenched in some places but not in others.  Would explain the variation
 in glow that we see (along with slight translucence of alumina tube), and
 would change as the wire gets hotter and relaxes pre-existing springiness
 that might otherwise hold the wire in contact with the inner tube - would
 lead to wire temperature increasing faster than power input would suggest -
 ie what we see with supposedly increasing COP.

 Most likely means of construction is winding wires around an inner tube,
 or winding them around a different mandrel and then slipping them over the
 tube.  Bonding them to the inner tube is an extra step that (based on
 inconsistency/variability of surface glow) has likely not been done and for
 which their would be little initial motive anyway. And massive relative
 thermal expansion of the wire (~1%) would likely have cracked any ceramic
 bonding or attempts to rigidly encase the wires or bond them to the inner
 tube anyway.

 Differential thermal expansion means that the internal tube/vessel is
 likely only bonded to the thermocouple end cap, otherwise the external tube
 would be broken by axial stress due to differential thermal expansion of
 higher temperature of inner tube compared to external tube.

 On 16 October 2014 10:58, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:


 ​If the wire inside the reactor was hot enough to glow it should produce
 a more uniform spiral glow along the entire length of the tube.


 Harry

 On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Robert Lynn 
 robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 Additionally, look at the darkened photo, the wire exterior to the
 reactor sourrounded by cooler materials to radiate to are brighter than the
 bright wires in the reactor.  Hard to believe it would be colder inside the
 reactor surrounded by relatively hotter materials that are harder to
 radiate to.  I think that is pretty strong indication that it is the wires
 that are the bright areas.

 On 15 October 2014 20:14, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I am looking at high zoom at the same photos and finding it easy to
 draw the opposite conclusion.  Confirmation bias on both our parts :)
 I think it is equivocal at best.

 On 15 October 2014 19:52, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 If you zoom in very closely on the hot reactor photos you can see the
 the dark lines are of uniform width, continuity and shade.  I am 95%
 confident that is the shadow of the coil.  The light areas change in
 brightness, width, etc.

 On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Robert Lynn 
 robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 how do you know this?  How do you know the the wire is not the
 brightest area?

 On 15 October 2014 15:06, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Some people suspect that the resistor wire can't be Inconel because
 they are predicted to melt at the reactor's operating temperature. 
 However,
 since we know the resistor wire casts a shadow in the alumina, the
 temperature of the wire remains below the operating temperature and
 therefore can't melt.

 Harry










Re: [Vo]:temperature of the resistor wire.

2014-10-15 Thread H Veeder
Another strange thing might be happening.  Assuming the electrical input
power measurements are correct,  is there enough electrical power flowing
through the wires to cause the wires external to the reactor to glow with
the observed color?​

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Determining the transmittance . . . of semitransparent materials at elevated temperatures

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 A corespondent sent me this link:


 http://www.eurotherm2008.tue.nl/Proceedings_Eurotherm2008/papers/Radiation/RAD_6.pdf
 ​​

 He commented: My interpretation of figure 6 is that the tranmissivity of
 alumina goes down to zero. Hence, this shows the arguments about alumina
 translucency are moot.

 - Jed


​does this imply the dark bands are not cast shadows?

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Inconel f/H and SPP

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
what is SPP?

Harry

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:



 In any event, there seems to be no good reason to eliminate the Inconel as
 being active, since it contains lots of nickel - especially in the context
 of SPP.







Re: [Vo]:Three hypotheses for Rossi mass spec results

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 10:25 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Broadly speaking, I think three explanation have been offered for the
 astounding mass spec results:

 1. Tentative acceptance, or at least acceptance for the sake of argument.
 That, it seems to me, is McKubre's position. As McKubre says, this result
 is so different from previous ones it should be considered one-off, and not
 yet replicated.

 2. Mistake. This seems unlikely given the magnitude of the effect. On the
 other hand mass spectroscopy is a difficult art. The people at Mitsubishi
 and the National Synchrotron lab both saw pronounced isotopic shifts in
 Iwamura's samples. The people at the NRL looked at those samples and saw
 nothing. I believe they were the very same samples in some cases.

 3. Fraud. Surely you jest. This has been proposed by skeptics thousands of
 times to dismiss cold fusion results. It is an intellectual dead end. It
 can seldom be tested.

 I cannot judge the likelihood of 1 or 2. #3 seems unlikely because, as I
 said, there is no motive. Rossi already has what he wants from IH. I doubt
 IH has any investment (fiscal or psychological) in Rossi's Ni theories. No
 industrialist cares about theory, except insofar as they want a theory to
 speed up development.

 - Jed



​
​
Robert Ellefson makes a good case why the ash is not fake without reference
to motive or magic tricks:

https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98444.html

I do not believe that the discovery of highly-enriched isotopes is the
result
of fraud.  I think that the variable fractions of isotopes between the
surface
and the bulk of the ash indicates that isotopic enrichment was occurring
in-situ.  The apparent fact (if true) that the bulk of the nickel is 99.3%
Ni-62, while it is 98.7% Ni-62 on the surface, along with an even larger
lithium isotope gradient from surface-to-bulk, demonstrates that we are
looking
at the ash of a nuclear reaction, and not a faked result.  I have no idea
how
Rossi could achieve such gradients in with a laboratory-supply feedstock of
enriched nickel achieving both the surface morphology that the ash grain
displayed and the isotope fractionation gradient that it displayed.  I
highly
doubt this would be possible to fake even with tremendous effort.

So, rather than providing evidence of fraud, I very much believe that this
isotope fractionation gradient clearly indicates that some kind of nuclear
reaction is taking place in during this experiment.
​​


​Harry​


Re: [Vo]:Determining the transmittance . . . of semitransparent materials at elevated temperatures

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
Much of the red glow is confined to the central part of the alumina vessel,
but there are areas where the red glow extends to the exterior surface of
the vessel.
Is all the red glow near the exterior surface just diffusion of red light
from the central part due to the alumina's translucency or could some of it
be indicative of the surface temperature
in those areas?

Harry


On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 It has moderate transmissivity in the visible range, which is what the
 photograph shows. But it drops to zero by 6  and above, which is what the
 IR camera is measuring.

 So there could be visible shadows / glowing resistors seen through the
 ceramic, but the IR calculations are OK.

 --
 *From: *H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
 *Sent: *Monday, October 13, 2014 11:27:44 PM

 He commented: My interpretation of figure 6 is that the tranmissivity of
 alumina goes down to zero. Hence, this shows the arguments about alumina
 translucency are moot.


 ​does this imply the dark bands are not cast shadows?

 Harry





Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature hot-cat Lugano demo

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com
wrote:



 Another point has to do with how the heat is conveyed from a LENR
 reaction.  Since the LENR reaction is likely a nano-scale event, heat must
 be conveyed from the reaction in a way that doesn't make the NAE the
 hottest spot.  Otherwise, none of the reported melt-downs would be possible
 - the NAE would evaporate itself before it could create enough heat to melt
 the macro apparatus.  This implies that the heat is conveyed from the NAE
 by photons - not such high energy that they readily escape the reactor, but
 high enough that it can penetrate through a mm or so of the surrounding
 materials (which could be LENR powder), depositing heat as the photons are
 attenuated in penetration.  The important take-away is that the NAE cannot
 be the hottest spot - it must heat its surroundings more than itself.
 Given this, it is possible that the heat from the LENR is being absorbed in
 the alumina in a distributed way, causing the LENR powder to be largely the
 same temperature as the surrounding ceramic.  I don't believe it is
 necessary or probable that the core must be much higher temperature than
 the shell.


What you are proposing ​is the existence of anomalous cooler zone which
conflicts the thermal expectations of law bound scientists.

Anyway, IMO, ​if anomalous cool zones exist I think it is more likely they
are able to persist away from the core.




 Can we refocus this thread into discussion about the construction of the
 latest reactor?  For example:

- Why do we think the end caps are so big?  Are they part of a lower
temperature insulated mounting system?
-


​Perhaps he assembles each tube into a larger array and the end caps keep
them​ thermally isolated from each other.

Harry




- Why do we think the 3-phase drive is used?
- What else?

 Bob Higgins




Re: [Vo]:Engineering and materials issues with high temperature hot-cat Lugano demo

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 1:21 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com
 wrote:






 Can we refocus this thread into discussion about the construction of the
 latest reactor?  For example:

- Why do we think the end caps are so big?  Are they part of a lower
temperature insulated mounting system?
-


 ​Perhaps he assembles each tube into a larger array and the end caps keep
 them​ thermally isolated from each other.

 Harry




Sorry, I just restated what you suggested.

Harry​


[Vo]:OT: The Phone Cops

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
The phone cops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTPzTG1Lx60

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Inconel f/H and SPP

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
Ok.
Anyway, I agree with your intuition that something odd might be occurring
in the heater wire.

harry

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

  SPP = surface plasmon polariton.



 This is a favorite hypothesis of NASA at the moment.



 Violante discovered over 10 years ago that SPP can produce nuclear
 reactions.



 Paper is on LENR-CANR





 *From:* H Veeder



 what is SPP?



 Harry





 In any event, there seems to be no good reason to eliminate the Inconel as
 being active, since it contains lots of nickel - especially in the context
 of SPP.







[Vo]:NBC News article on Fusion Mentions E-Cat (Not Negatively)

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/10/14/nbc-news-article-on-fusion-mentions-e-cat-not-negatively/

Harry


Re: [Vo]:An expert reviewed and approves of this configuration

2014-10-14 Thread H Veeder
So the heater coils in the 2013 test were embedded in ceramic sheath which
covered a steel vessel. I was recalling the 2013 test as if the coils were
inside the steel vessel.
It all makes sense now.

Harry


On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 Yes, sorry -- I was referring back to the 2013 test.

 For that we had a picture of the ceramic frame holding the resistor wires,
 which was cast in two (I recall, without looking it up) sections.

 For a small area, we have a solid plate (complicated by fins), and then a
 cog-like  structure  with the gap towards the outside.
 Presuming that this makes good thermal contact to the outer cylinder we
 can approximate it as a rectangular block with a rectangular hole, with the
 wire in the center.

 The wire itself is mostly in poor contact with the holder, so it supplies
 heat by thermal radiation (or induction, though I think that's less likely).

 There are two pathways from the inner hot zone: by conduction through the
 solid part of the gear, and by radiation through the gap.  (It's probably
 close to thermal equilibrium.)

 Given that Alumina is an insulator, I don't know which wins, but there is
 definitely a possibility of a temperature difference, which may persist.

 I don't have the tools (comsol etc) to model the radiation in and across
 the gap.

 --




Re: [Vo]:An expert reviewed and approves of this configuration

2014-10-13 Thread H Veeder
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:



 Figure 6 : this is complicated by transmission, which may be happening in
 the visible range. (IF the helical shadows are indeed images or shadows of
 the coiuls. But I still think they represent different conduction zones of
 a ceramic holder, as in the March test). However, this has a broad peak
 near the center of the visible range, so the blue might be enhanced a
 little.
 ​




I find it odd the dark bands (a.k.a the shadows) persist.  I can
understand how differences in conduction​

​play a role when the reactor first starts but in the long run shouldn't
the dark bands disappear?

Harry


Re: [Vo]:An expert reviewed and approves of this configuration

2014-10-13 Thread H Veeder
The banded regions should absorb heat and in the long run reach the same
temperature as their surroundings. The fact that they persist is a sign of
something significant...and I don't mean fraud or incompetence.

Harry

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:54 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 The coil stays cooler than the core when it is heating thru induction due
 to less resistance in the coil so that is why I think the coil is
 darker/cooler

 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking

 In an induction cooker, a coil of copper wire is placed underneath the
 cooking pot . An alternating . In turn, most of the energy becomes heat
 in the high- resistance steel, while the driving coil stays cool.

 On Monday, October 13, 2014, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:



 Figure 6 : this is complicated by transmission, which may be happening
 in the visible range. (IF the helical shadows are indeed images or shadows
 of the coiuls. But I still think they represent different conduction zones
 of a ceramic holder, as in the March test). However, this has a broad peak
 near the center of the visible range, so the blue might be enhanced a
 little.
 ​




 I find it odd the dark bands (a.k.a the shadows) persist.  I can
 understand how differences in conduction​

 ​play a role when the reactor first starts but in the long run shouldn't
 the dark bands disappear?

 Harry




Re: [Vo]:An expert reviewed and approves of this configuration

2014-10-13 Thread H Veeder
Maybe I misunderstood but when he said the march test, I thought he meant
the march test of 2013.

Harry

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 11:17 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 Alumina is a top notch insulator and the coil is imbedded in it.  More
 heat must be leaving other routes. Where r the fins?  I have not studied
 the photos.

 On Monday, October 13, 2014, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 The banded regions should absorb heat and in the long run reach the same
 temperature as their surroundings. The fact that they persist is a sign of
 something significant...and I don't mean fraud or incompetence.

 Harry

 On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:54 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The coil stays cooler than the core when it is heating thru induction
 due to less resistance in the coil so that is why I think the coil is
 darker/cooler

 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking

 In an induction cooker, a coil of copper wire is placed underneath the
 cooking pot . An alternating . In turn, most of the energy becomes heat
 in the high- resistance steel, while the driving coil stays cool.

 On Monday, October 13, 2014, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:



 Figure 6 : this is complicated by transmission, which may be happening
 in the visible range. (IF the helical shadows are indeed images or shadows
 of the coiuls. But I still think they represent different conduction zones
 of a ceramic holder, as in the March test). However, this has a broad peak
 near the center of the visible range, so the blue might be enhanced a
 little.
 ​




 I find it odd the dark bands (a.k.a the shadows) persist.  I can
 understand how differences in conduction​

 ​play a role when the reactor first starts but in the long run
 shouldn't the dark bands disappear?

 Harry





Re: [Vo]:another Law breaker?

2014-10-12 Thread H Veeder
ugh...my idiot twin wrote this.


Harry

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:57 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Another related thought experiment

 Consider the focusing of sunlight by a simple parabolic reflector. Why
 doesn't that constitute a violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which
 (according to one of the many equivalents formulations) says heat cannot
 flow from a cold to hot region without an input of work. It is because the
 reflector does work by changing the path of light photons. A reflector
 attached to the ground does not appear to do any work because the bulk of
 the Earth pushes back too.

 However imagine a number of parabolic reflectors assembled in a spherical
 arrangement suspended inside a translucent bubble so the light is uniform
 in all directions.
 Each reflector focuses light but collectively the 2nd law is violated
 because they do not appear to do any work since they all push against each
 other and so do not move.


 Harry




[Vo]:Robert Godes comments on the report

2014-10-12 Thread H Veeder
Robert Godes from Brillouin comments:

http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/734-Short-text-from-Robert-Godes-regarding-the-test/

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Incandescence is the wrong color

2014-10-12 Thread H Veeder
what is the other direction?
(I am having hard time following the flow of thought in this particular
thread)

harry

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 10:31 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 How does the emissivity of the alumina effect the optical appearance with
 regard to color?  Is it possible for most of the energy to be emitted in
 the IR spectrum while limited at optical wavelengths?

 I recall looking at a piece of brightly glowing insulator in some NASA
 photo.  The material was being held within a volunteer's hand and did not
 burn that person.  Had the radiation been emitted at the level expected by
 the brightness, the person would have suffered severe burns.  Could this
 process work in the other direction such as we seem to question in this
 discussion?

 Dave



  -Original Message-
 From: a.ashfield a.ashfi...@verizon.net
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Sun, Oct 12, 2014 4:39 pm
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Incandescence is the wrong color

  Jed,

 As someone experienced with working at these kinds of temperatures in
 the glass industry, it was obvious that the temperature shown in the
 image is way below the reported operating temperature.
 I don't know whether this is because it was warming up, or because many
 consumer cameras don't show  red hot things correctly.

 I am now somewhat dated, but I would have used a type S platinum
 thermocouple, at the reported temperature, for the reactor control and
 would have reported that reading as a useful check against the IR
 reading. I also wonder what they used for the heating element as
 that would have to be good for 1500C





Re: [Vo]:Incandescence is the wrong color

2014-10-12 Thread H Veeder
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 11:43 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 I refer to the opposite effect in this case Harry.  In other words, can
 the color appear to be too dark in the visual region to our eyes compared
 to the emission of thermal energy in the IR.

 Are there surfaces that are very poor emitters of energy in the visual
 region that behave more like a black body in the infrared region?  This is
 more of a question instead of a statement since it seems like that might be
 happening in this special case.  The light emitted does not have a color
 that matches what is expected to be seen from a surface of a broad band
 black body.  I wonder if anyone on the list has seen materials with that
 characteristic.

 If you consider the behavior of a RF radio transmitter, you will
 understand the jest of my question.  In that case, the amount of power at
 its transmission frequency, being narrow band and so low in Hertz, would
 indicate a black body that was at an enormous temperature if the complete
 spectrum were available as expected.  But we know that it does not
 represent a true black body since it is narrow band.  Can anything of a
 similar nature exist at other frequency ranges such as IR?


The blackbody would still have a low temperature if the distribution peeked
at radio wave lengths  which are much longer than light waves. See how the
temperature peek of a blackbody declines as wavelength increases:
http://voyager.egglescliffe.org.uk/physics/astronomy/blackbody/Image21b.gif

You are struggling to find an explanation which is consistent with the
claim of excess energy and with the 2nd law of thermodynamics (heat flows
from a hotter region to a cooler region).  Can it be done? You can
disregard what I am about to say since I am not expert in these matters but
I think a choice has to be made. Either there is no excess energy or the
2nd law has broken down in this system.

Harry


Re: [Vo]:About Goat Guy theory of Alumina transparency and emissivity change on E-ca test

2014-10-11 Thread H Veeder
On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 9:48 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 Especially if they switch to a pulse mode where they are not really
 heating directly anymore, the pulses are working like an induction stovetop


 On page 6 there's a photo of the power and harmonic analyzer.  I don't
 know how to read these, but on the left of the display there are pulses,
 two up and then two down.

 Eric


It is worth noting that pulses of a different kind were used in the cooler
version of the Ecat.
They were in the form of pressure pulses of injected H gas.

Harry​


Re: [Vo]:Video of the test

2014-10-11 Thread H Veeder
I can see it now ...and infrared picture of Rossi on the cover of TIME. lol

Harry

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:


 Fig 3 clearly shows a camera in the top-left, with a (temporary?) cable
 strung from it, aimed directly at the ecat.


 The figure 3 caption says those are IR cameras. Background: reactor, the
 two thermal imagery cameras. They recorded with two IR cameras the whole
 time. An IR camera would catch someone monkeying with the cell just as well
 as a visible light camera would. It would be like hiring a bumble bee as a
 watch dog.

 B. . . .

 - Jed




Re: Isotope conversion completeness, was RE: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in

2014-10-11 Thread H Veeder
Can this be used to challenge Pomp's claim that the ash was faked by
commercially available enriched isotopes?

Most people on this list seem to be very good about raising technical
objections to criticisms of the calorimetry, but they counter Pomp's claim
with non-technical arguments about how it would be irrational of Rossi to
fake the ash.

Harry

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Robert Ellefson vortex-h...@e2ke.com
wrote:

 Recall that the bulk results show 57% Li-6 enrichment, vs. 92% surface
 enrichment.  I believe the higher fraction of Li-6 on the surface is the
 result of starvation of the reaction cycle resulting in an excess of Li-6
 as
 compared to the steady-state balance during operation, which is reflected
 in
 the bulk composition.

 Read these messages for further details:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98020.html (msg has
 an
 error, should read ni62, not ni68)
 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98350.html
 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98422.html

 -Bob


 _
 From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
 Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 4:35 PM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Subject: RE: Isotope conversion completeness, was RE:
 [Vo]:Pomp weighs in


 Ok - I can buy the cyclic reaction, but how do you explain
 the great preponderance of Li-6 in the ash, compared to all other isotopes?
 That does not indicate a cycle so much as a major shift... and where are
 the
 intermediaries in the nearly pure sample - which would indicate one neutron
 at a time? Surely you are not suggesting multi-body?

 _
 From: Robert Ellefson

 Jones,

 I can only give you the assurances that I
 received from the report itself.  All of the claims I am making are coming
 from there.  Pages 28 and 53 describe the ICP methods as involving the
 entire sample mass.

 I do not believe this is indicative of
 fraud.  I believe this indicates a cyclic reaction is occurring that
 results
 in a steady-state heat-generating reaction that cycles between Li-7 and
 Li-6
 and results in Ni-62 enrichment.  I put some more thoughts into this
 message:

 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg98422.html


 -Bob



 _
 From: Jones Beene
 [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
 Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 4:16 PM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Subject: RE: Isotope conversion
 completeness, was RE: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in

 Let me put it this way, if what you say is
 true - that the sample tested to 99.3% purity of Ni-62, then we have a
 major
 problem. Are you certain?

 ...this information is very important, so
 please assure us that is true.

 Jones

 From: Robert Ellefson
 First, as I explain in this
 (rather-long-winded) mail from yesterday, the ENTIRE ASH SAMPLE BULK was
 analyzed by ICP-MS as consisting of 99.3% enriched Ni-62.

( see:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98350.html )

 Allow me to repeat this crucially-important
 point:   The 2.13mg ash sample contained 2.12mg of PURE Nickel-62.

 Only the SEM/EDS and ToF-SIMS methods are
 restricted to analyzing the surface-layer composition.




Re: Isotope conversion completeness, was RE: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in

2014-10-11 Thread H Veeder
Thanks!

Harry

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Robert Ellefson vortex-h...@e2ke.com
wrote:

 Harry and Jones,



 I do not believe that the discovery of highly-enriched isotopes is the
 result of fraud.  I think that the variable fractions of isotopes between
 the surface and the bulk of the ash indicates that isotopic enrichment was
 occurring in-situ.  The apparent fact (if true) that the bulk of the nickel
 is 99.3% Ni-62, while it is 98.7% Ni-62 on the surface, along with an even
 larger lithium isotope gradient from surface-to-bulk, demonstrates that we
 are looking at the ash of a nuclear reaction, and not a faked result.  I
 have no idea how Rossi could achieve such gradients in with a
 laboratory-supply feedstock of enriched nickel achieving both the surface
 morphology that the ash grain displayed and the isotope fractionation
 gradient that it displayed.  I highly doubt this would be possible to fake
 even with tremendous effort.



 So, rather than providing evidence of fraud, I very much believe that this
 isotope fractionation gradient clearly indicates that some kind of nuclear
 reaction is taking place in during this experiment.



 -Bob





 *From:* H Veeder Saturday, October 11, 2014 9:20 PM

 Can this be used to challenge Pomp's claim that the ash was faked by
 commercially available enriched isotopes?



 On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Robert Ellefson vortex-h...@e2ke.com
 wrote:

 Recall that the bulk results show 57% Li-6 enrichment, vs. 92% surface
 enrichment.  I believe the higher fraction of Li-6 on the surface is the
 result of starvation of the reaction cycle resulting in an excess of Li-6
 as
 compared to the steady-state balance during operation, which is reflected
 in
 the bulk composition.

 Read these messages for further details:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98020.html (msg has
 an
 error, should read ni62, not ni68)
 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98350.html
 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg98422.html




Re: [Vo]:Re: Boom - Tom Darden speaks.

2014-10-10 Thread H Veeder
As far as I know the biggest source of coal pollution comes from coal fired
electricity plants. However, Tom Darden seems to be talking about coal
burning just for heat. I suppose this is still a major problem in China.

Harry

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Original link:
 http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2014/10/raleigh-investor-darden-still-bullish-on.html?page=all

 Triangle Business Journal is a credible journal.

 “I’m serious — it’s about air pollution and coal,” Darden says. “Our
 company is called Industrial Heat. Our job is to make industrial heat and
 industrial heat is made by coal… We don’t think any energy should be made
 by coal, so that’s why I’m doing this. This could be a way to eliminate the
 use of coal.”

 *Our* company.

 Exciting times!

 On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
  wrote:


 http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/10/10/tom-darden-of-industrial-heat-comments-on-e-cat-test/

 Of all the ones that I wanted to hear, was this.  Tom Darden is not
 speaking based on this report.  He's obviously intimately familar with the
 ecat, the 1mw install, and all the pros/cons/strengths/weaknesses of this
 device.

 He's not relying on some report by a bunch of scientists.   Tom Darden is
 no fool,  He's yale graduate / head of a billion dollar hedge fund.

 Going to raise probability to 55%





Re: [Vo]:Nasa scientist endorses report

2014-10-10 Thread H Veeder
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:


 I am glad they published this report. They were under no obligation to do
 so. We are beggars and beggars cannot be choosers.


​This is another reason why most scientists will ignore this report because
they see themselves as a community of equals.

Harry​


Re: [Vo]:Nasa scientist endorses report

2014-10-10 Thread H Veeder
It is worth noting that some FP cells got hot enough to boil off the
electrolytic solution and then remained hot for a while.

Harry

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Very perceptive and a great insight into why the test was setup the way
 that it was. Rossi has not solved his control issues yet.

 On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 Brad, I think part of the problem was control.   When you use the hot cat
 to actually heat something I suspect it messes with the ability to control
 the reaction.   The best they can do is let it radiate, which is why the
 thermal cameras.

 On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Does anyone know if there will be a press release or QA where the
 experimenters can answer questions?
 It would be extreme negligence to allow Levi or Rossi to open the
 reactor or handle the ash.

 Two things that lends credence to Jones' fear-- Rossi's constant may
 be positive or may be negative mantra, and Rossi's statements that
 getting actual work accomplished is difficult. If it were a clear COP
 of 3, it should be pretty easy to heat a tub of water or do some
 kind of obvious work.

 - Brad



 On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote:
  Jones -- I can't say your objections to Rossi being present when it
 was open
  are unfounded. I think that was a rather stupid move/agreement between
 the
  parties. Creates all kind of innuendo which they could/should have
 avoided.
  With that said I'm not so sure it really presented him with much
 chance to
  swap the sample, as Mats Lewan wrote:
 
  I don’t have details minute by minute, but I was told one member of
 the
  team together with Rossi and a technician opened the reactor in a
 closed
  room. A diamond saw had to be used to cut some part before the end plug
  could be removed. The team member was allowed to pick 10 mg out of the
  charge which amounted to about 1 gram. This constraint was supposedly
  imposed by IH. The sample of used fuel could be chosen freely from the
  charge inside the reactor, which means that if the material was
 manipulated,
  all of it had to be so. Basically I guess you would have needed to
 swap the
  reactor for another identical before opening.
 
  On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
 wrote:
 
 
  Here is a reduction ad absurdum example of why this experiment was
  unbelievably poorly designed.
 
  NOTE: The experiment could still be gainful, but the Levi’s results
 do not
  prove anything, as presented. The thermocouple does not help – it is
  admitted by Levi that it was accurate only on the two caps, which were
  much
  cooler.
 
  Let’s say I claim to have a hundred watt OU lightbulb that I want to
 sell
  to
  you for $1 million. If it were a glass bulb, and clear, and I use the
 IR
  camera to measure the filament temperature, and then used that
 temperature
  to compute the emissivity of the entire surface area of the bulb, say
 100
  cm^2, then you would cry foul – since the obviously only the surface
 area
  of
  the filament is responsible. That filament area could be 1 cm^2 and in
  effect, I have computed the power of the bulb with a 25:1
 overestimate-
  based on an incorrect assumption, but based on a correct reading and a
  correct formula.
 
  Next let’s say the bulb presented is frosted, and you are naïve and
 do not
  know that it contains a hot filament - but I use the camera to focus
 on an
  area of the bulb’s exterior, where from prior experience, I know that
 the
  filament radiates the most photons, even if that reading is
 diminished in
  intensity from a clear bulb … this technique can still result in a 3:1
  over-estimate of the net emissivity of the bulb, since there is a
 strong
  contribution from a hot filament. This can be demonstrated rather
 easily
  to
  be factual.
 
  That is the problem with this paper. Levi seems to be telling us only
  this:
  that if one applies 800 watts to a Inconel wire, it will reach 1300
  degrees.
  But we already knew that.
 
  We cannot extrapolate the emissivity of the resistor wire to the
 entire
  surface of the reactor. As for a thermocouple, placement is
 everything. I
  saw NO DATA on calibration of the thermocouple, only that someone who
  already screwed up the experiment royally thinks that it verifies what
  could
  be a grossly incorrect calibration. In fact this is admitted “We also
  found
  that the ridges made thermal contact with any thermocouple probe
 placed on
  the outer surface of the reactor extremely critical, making any direct
  temperature measurement with the required precision impossible.” So
 they
  admit the thermocouple reading was not done with any precision on the
  exterior of the tube – only on the caps which are much cooler and
  consequently the thermocouple verifies nothing!
 
  $64 question: Was Rossi present at the time the 

Re: [Vo]:About Goat Guy theory of Alumina transparency and emissivity change on E-ca test

2014-10-10 Thread H Veeder
The issue of translucency would alter the absolute power calculations but
wouldn't the relative difference between input and output power remain
roughly the same and therefore the COP too?

Harry

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 At 03:48 PM 10/10/2014, you wrote:

 Yes and the thickness of the alumina and the time constants of heat
 transfer dTouter/dt = K(Tinner - Touter) or similare suitable equation.


 Fundamentals of Ceramics
 Michael Barsoom
 About 600 pages.

 I found a probably bootleg copy on the web, but you'll have to google it
 yourself.





Re: [Vo]:Halo lithium was:Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elfors

2014-10-10 Thread H Veeder
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: mix...@bigpond.com
 In reply to  H Veeder's message

 *   Maybe it can all be done with shrunken lithium... Lithino

 ... or maybe the apparent Rossi reaction of Ni58 - Ni 62 can be
 accomplished with a known particle, which is halo-lithium or Li-11.

 This isotope has four excess neutrons - located far away from the nucleus
 and that is the only reason to mention it - since it can provide a
 hypothetical model for a (virtual) kind transfer mechanism in one step.
 (admittedly never before seen in fizzix :-)

 The look-a-like atom which makes this arguable is composed of Li-7 and four
 virtual neutrons (DDL) instead of four real neutrons. But given that Li-11
 is real, then this explanation cannot be ignored to the extent Bianchini's
 analysis of the spectacular accumulation of Ni-62 is correct.



​I don't understand...does the resulting Ni62 contain four virtual
neutrons?​



 This is the only way I can imagine avoiding a three or four body reaction
 to
 transfer four neutrons, and even then it makes far more sense to say that
 it
 cannot happen at all. But we have to cover all the bases, just in case...

 A halo atom of Li-11 has a short half-life - but perhaps it is long enough
 for lithium to act as a transfer agent, and perhaps it is longer-lived with
 virtual neutrons than real neutrons. These would derive from the initial
 hydrogen being reduced to redundant ground states so there are several
 miracles involved, including the one where the Li-7 loses a core neutron to
 become Li-6.

 Jones



​harry​


Re: [Vo]:About Goat Guy theory of Alumina transparency and emissivity change on E-ca test

2014-10-10 Thread H Veeder
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 This transparency to infrared photons must be why Rossi uses this ceramic
 material to get heat unencumbered to his powder. Rossi is clever.


​Or maybe it allows more infrared photons to escape unencumbered once the
reactor ignites.


​Harry​


Re: [Vo]:About Goat Guy theory of Alumina transparency and emissivity change on E-ca test

2014-10-10 Thread H Veeder
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:35 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 At 06:14 PM 10/10/2014, H Veeder wrote:

 The issue of translucency would alter the absolute power calculations but
 wouldn't the relative difference between input and output power remain
 roughly the same and therefore the COP too?


 No -- the input power calculation is correct as it is. The output power --
 and hence COP (output/input+output) -- may change.



quite right...thanks

harry


Re: [Vo]:another Law breaker?

2014-10-10 Thread H Veeder
Another related thought experiment

Consider the focusing of sunlight by a simple parabolic reflector. Why
doesn't that constitute a violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which
(according to one of the many equivalents formulations) says heat cannot
flow from a cold to hot region without an input of work. It is because the
reflector does work by changing the path of light photons. A reflector
attached to the ground does not appear to do any work because the bulk of
the Earth pushes back too.

However imagine a number of parabolic reflectors assembled in a spherical
arrangement suspended inside a translucent bubble so the light is uniform
in all directions.
Each reflector focuses light but collectively the 2nd law is violated
because they do not appear to do any work since they all push against each
other and so do not move.


Harry

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 5:10 PM, David L. Babcock olb...@gmail.com wrote:

  Thank you.  Also, Noted that the 2nd law is not violated.

 Ol' Bab


 On 10/7/2014 1:34 PM, Ian Walker wrote:

 Hi David

 I did a search for good-bye-second-law-of-thermodynamics

 It came up in google with this

 http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/09/good-bye-second-law-of-thermodynamics.html

 I clicked on the link in google and it took me to the page that I quote
 the first few lines of:

 
 Home http://www.laserfocusworld.com/content/lfw/en/index.html
 Good-bye second law of thermodynamics?
  Good-bye second law of thermodynamics?
  09/02/2014
 By John Wallace
 http://www.laserfocusworld.com/content/lfw/en/authors/john-wallace.html
 Senior Editor

 I was quite happy last week to post a news item about a colorless
 transparent luminescent solar concentrator developed at Michigan State
 University
 http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/08/solar-collector-is-transparent-colorless-doesn-t-block-the-view.html
  (East
 Lansing, MI), as I have had a long-term fascination with luminescent solar
 concentrators. So why am I so fascinated by such devices?

 One reason is that at first glance they seem to violate the second law of
 thermodynamics
 http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-49/issue-06/features/chillers-and-coolers--breakthrough-of-optical-refrigeration--las.html,
 which says that the entropy of any isolated system never decreases. In the
 field of optics, the second law sorta translates in a hand-waving way to
 the fact that the étendue (solid angle multiplied by beam cross-section) of
 a light beam can never decrease: for example, one can't focus a low-quality
 laser beam to a spot as small as that that can be produced by a
 high-quality laser beam (given the same lens used for both, with lens pupil
 optimally filled)...

 Kind Regards walker

 On 7 October 2014 18:52, David L. Babcock olb...@gmail.com wrote:

 Exact link not found. On inspection, no such article found in their many
 lists.
 Pulled?

 Ol' Bab



 On 10/5/2014 9:33 PM, Jones Beene wrote:

 Every week it seems, there is a new assault around the edges of the 2nd
 Generalization of Thermodynamics...


 http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/09/good-bye-second-law-of-therm
 odynamics.html



  ---
 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
 protection is active.
 http://www.avast.com





 --
http://www.avast.com/

 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
 http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.




[Vo]:Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elfors

2014-10-09 Thread H Veeder
Elforsks CEO: Let's move on with research on LENR

http://www.nyteknik.se/asikter/debatt/article3854541.ece

google translation of swedish:

Elforsk takes now the initiative to build a comprehensive Swedish
research initiative. More knowledge is needed to understand and explain.
Let us engage more researchers in searching coat phenomenon and then
explain how it works.

Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elforsk

Harry


Re: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in

2014-10-09 Thread H Veeder
Stephen Pomp asserts that it is possible to use commercially available
isotopes to make an ash sample that gives the same values as measured in
the report. Setting aside the issues of how Rossi would switch samples and
his motivation for doing so, we should ask if Pomp is exaggerating the
correspondence between the measured ash values and the commercially
available materials.



Harry

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 3:32 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote:

 bad logic

 even a fraudster cannot change the physics of heat.


 a fraudster need to control his environment. he makes pony show.
 he ensure condition for his fraud. he does not let people play with his
 reactor, choose methods...

 the fraud hypotheis are empty... they don't even consider the consequences
 of their hypothsis and how it will have been spotted... how it could have
 been spotted according to the protocol.

 the fraud theory have to propose a reliable way to fraud... not just luck.
 they have to prove that it cannot be spotted, not only the the measurement
 don, but by the one that could have been done reasonably...


 moreover Rossi is not a convicted fraudster, but a loose polluting
 industrialist as the justice said. this is an urban myth. his numerous
 mistakes and failures are not incoherent with Italian justice opinion, with
 his clients opinion, with his bosses opinions, with Mats lewan ...
 creative, yes. real yes, loose and stubborn, sometime... that is what makes
 disruptive inventors. nice and cautious guys follow the train, don't lead
 it.



 2014-10-09 3:58 GMT+02:00 Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com:

 Jed, it doesn't matter.   If the ash is a fraud, Rossi is a fraud.
 Plain and simple.   I'm not interesting in debating the other aspects of
 the experiment because of the complexities involved in calorimetry.

  There are no such complexities in the ash which makes the discussion
 very straightforward.   He either switched it out or he didn't.  He's
 either a liar or he isn't.  It's pretty simple..

 On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:


 I'm betting he's a fraud, simply because the probability of him doing
 this is too incredible.  What he's done is nothing short of miraculous.


 It is more miraculous than what Fleischmann and Pons and several hundred
 other groups have done. Do you think they are all frauds?

 In any case, your hypothesis does not get a free pass. If you say this
 is fraud, and you want anyone here to take you seriously, you will have to
 suggest a plausible way in which Rossi could carry it out. I do not mean
 the isotope changes; I realize it is physically possible for someone to
 swap the samples by sleight of hand. I mean how would he fool the
 calorimetry for 32 days when he was not present, and when none of
 instruments belong to him? Is Rossi capable of changing the
 Stephan-Boltzmann law? Can he magically alter an IR camera?

 If you cannot present a plausible, step-by-step description of how he
 did this, you are assertion has no merit. You might was well say, it was
 caused by invisible unicorns.



   It is total inflection point in the progress of humanity and all that
 we know.


 That inflection point came on March 23, 1989. In the long view of
 history, Rossi is a minor incremental improvement to FP.

 - Jed






Re: [Vo]:[Rossi TR#2] Reactor close down : all Li and Ni converted. Coincidentally?

2014-10-09 Thread H Veeder
On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:



 There are so many transmutation threads going on that I'm not sure if this
 was posted :

  Rodney Nicholson
 October 8th, 2014 at 5:05 PM

 2) It seems that in the ITP test the content of 58Ni was reduced almost to
 zero after one month of operation. That leads to a conclusion that maybe
 some route of conversion of 58Ni to 62Ni may be a significant source of the
 energy relaeased. But if the E-cat can function for as much as six times
 longer than the 32 days of the ITP test, then that cannot be right because
 there would not be any 58Ni available for the next five months.

 AR: 2- the charge had been made for a 35 days test. This is the test
 duration agreed upon when the experiment has been started

 So Rossi knew it would be exhausted, there isn't another reaction, and
 it's NOT a coincidence.


​
And this was not mentioned in the report?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ-t4DhAfrs

harry
​


Re: [Vo]:Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elfors

2014-10-09 Thread H Veeder
A statement about the report in Swedish and English on the Elforsk website:

http://www.elforsk.se/LENR-Matrapport-publicerad/

Harry

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 THIS is the kind of response I was hoping to see!

 Elforsk takes now the initiative to build a comprehensive Swedish
 research initiative. More knowledge is needed to understand and explain.
 Let us engage more researchers in searching coat phenomenon and then
 explain how it works.

 Ignore the skeptics. Funding and full speed ahead.

 - Jed




[Vo]:Lithium

2014-10-09 Thread H Veeder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Isotopes

Naturally occurring lithium is composed of two stable isotopes, 6Li and
7Li, the latter being the more abundant (92.5% natural
abundance).[3][13][23] Both natural isotopes have anomalously low nuclear
binding energy per nucleon compared to the next lighter and heavier
elements, helium and beryllium, which means that alone among stable light
elements, lithium can produce net energy through nuclear fission. The two
lithium nuclei have lower binding energies per nucleon than any other
stable nuclides other than deuterium and helium-3.[24] As a result of this,
though very light in atomic weight, lithium is less common in the Solar
System than 25 of the first 32 chemical elements.[1] Seven radioisotopes
have been characterized, the most stable being 8Li with a half-life of 838
ms and 9Li with a half-life of 178 ms. All of the remainingradioactive
isotopes have half-lives that are shorter than 8.6 ms. The shortest-lived
isotope of lithium is 4Li, which decays through proton emission and has a
half-life of 7.6 × 10−23 s.[25]

7Li is one of the primordial elements (or, more properly, primordial
nuclides) produced in Big Bang nucleosynthesis. A small amount of both 6Li
and 7Li are produced in stars, but are thought to be burned as fast as
produced.[26] Additional small amounts of lithium of both 6Li and 7Li may
be generated from solar wind, cosmic rays hitting heavier atoms, and from
early solar system 7Be and 10Be radioactive decay.[27] While lithium is
created in stars during the Stellar nucleosynthesis, it is further burnt.
7Li can also be generated in carbon stars.[28]

Lithium isotopes fractionate substantially during a wide variety of natural
processes,[29] including mineral formation (chemical precipitation),
metabolism, and ion exchange. Lithium ions substitute for magnesiumand iron
in octahedral sites in clay minerals, where 6Li is preferred to 7Li,
resulting in enrichment of the light isotope in processes of
hyperfiltration and rock alteration. The exotic 11Li is known to exhibit a
nuclear halo. The process known as laser isotope separation can be used to
separate lithium isotopes.[30]

Nuclear weapons manufacture and other nuclear physics uses are a major
source of artificial lithium fractionation, with the light isotope 6Li
being retained by industry and military stockpiles to such an extent as to
slightly but measurably change the 6Li to 7Li ratios even in natural
sources, such as rivers. This has led to unusual uncertainty in the
standardized atomic weight of lithium, since this quantity depends on the
natural abundance ratios of these naturally-occurring stable lithium
isotopes, as they are available in commercial lithium mineral sources.[31]


Re: [Vo]:Magnus Olofsson , CEO Elfors

2014-10-09 Thread H Veeder
Maybe it can all be done with shrunken lithium...

...Lithino

harry

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: mix...@bigpond.com

 My guess as to how it works:- Hydrinohydride is a small heavy negative
 particle with a mass about 10 times greater than a negative muon. These
 form
 the equivalent of muonic molecules (Hydronic molecules?) with Ni  Li,
 allowing them to approach one another close enough to facilitate neutron
 hopping (tunneling)
 in a reasonable time frame, especially at elevated temperatures.


 Hi Robin,

 I like this hypothesis as a major part of the emerging picture, assuming
 TIP2 is not part of an elaborate scam.

 f/H in some form is especially interesting as an initial step in a more
 complex reaction which is started by hydrogen shrinkage. f/H could be an
 isomer which can be contained in alumina via nickel bonding. The reaction
 may be sustained with SPP over the long run. SPP could supply the same
 intense high negative field as the f/H- or the two could work together.

 It is more than my opinion that this reactor design cannot enclose gaseous
 hydrogen when hot, as I have confirmed this from an alumina sales engineer
 today. This cannot work as a hydrogen reactor unless the hydrogen finds a
 way to bind to something at 1300 C and that feat is not easy.

 However ... it could work as a pychno/lithium/nickel reactor.

 For those who were not around when Arata's experiments were at center
 stage,
 pychno is his name for dense hydrogen. It is also known as f/H, hydrino,
 IRH, DDL, hydrex and probably a few other names. Presumably, pychno binds
 with nickel and stays in the reactor when gaseous hydrogen would escape.

 PLN has a nice ring to it.




Re: [Vo]:Experimental Test of a Thermodynamic Paradox

2014-10-09 Thread H Veeder
Sorry, I did not reply sooner. Thanks for the interest. Except for my
encounters with Maxwell's demon this field is all new to me. Unfortunately
I don't know anything about semiconductor theory. I found Sheehan's
proposed epicatalytic method for violating of the second law of
thermodynamics inspiring, because it only requires basic concepts from the
kinetic theory of gases and chemistry to understand the gist of it.

I am interested in the experimental problem of detecting a violation of the
second law without necessarily having to posses a thorough understanding of
the microscopic process which brings it about. For example, I wonder if
what appears as energy production in LENR/CF experiments is in fact energy
concentration, i.e. a 2nd law violation.

Harry


On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com
wrote:

 A much wider set of principles can be found in patent applications by
 George Samual Levy.
 In particular his published provisional filing 61567455 which can be
 obtained at http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair is intreaging,

 My personal interest goes to the solid state versions of his claimed
 energy generators.
 By appying graded doped semiconductor slabs he claims to be able to
 withdraw electrical power by temporary periods of violated 2nd law of
 thermodynamics.

 The part that is key and needs some more prove by experts in my view is
 following part of his provisional filing where Levy claims that by themally
 shortcutting a graded doped semiconductor slab a current is flowing through
 such semiconducor.

 Quote:
 *An analog of Loschmidt's adiabatic gas column thought experiment can
 therefore*
 *be implemented in a semiconductor with graded doping. Carriers in such a
 semiconductor*
 *develop an adiabatic temperature profile. If the heavily doped end and
 lightly doped end*
 *of the semiconductor slab are thermally short circuited, the temperature
 of the*
 *semiconductor at each end deviates from the adiabatic profile. The
 relative temperature is*
 *colder at the heavily doped end and hotter at the lightly doped end. The
 hot probe effect*
 *results in a current flowing through the semiconductor, which can be
 tapped by*
 *electrodes. This particular implementation combines in a single
 semiconductor slab two*
 *aspects of the Loschmidt's thought experiment: the adiabatic gradient in
 the gas and the*
 *heat engine (Seebeck device).*

 We can further discuss if found interesting enough.



 On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 3:25 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Paradigm Energy website is now empty (although you can still download
 the papers at the links given on the MFMP page). In the comments section
 Ryan Hunt explains why:

 That website has since been taken down. :( They decided not to do their
 research openly in the interest of being able to secure private funding and
 guarding against getting patented out of the game by onlookers is what I
 heard.

 Harry

 On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 3:29 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 The authors have set up an open source organisation to develop the
 _epicatalysis_ phenomena which they believe is producing the heat.

 ​​
 http://jointheparadigm.com/what-is-epicatalysis/

 Harry

 On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 2:47 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Research (published in the peer reviewed journals Physical Review E and
 Foundations of Physics) mentioned on the MFMP site argues that the second
 law of thermodynamics is not a law but only a rule of thumb.


 http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/old-experiments/follow-2/412-2nd-rule-of-thumb-of-thermodynamics

 Harry







[Vo]:Mats Lewan describes the ash extraction

2014-10-09 Thread H Veeder
http://matslew.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/interview-on-radio-show-free-energy-quest-tonight/#comment-3469

 I don’t have details minute by minute, but I was told one member of the
team together with Rossi and a technician opened the reactor in a closed
room. A diamond saw had to be used to cut some part before the end plug
could be removed. The team member was allowed to pick 10 mg out of the
charge which amounted to about 1 gram. This constraint was supposedly
imposed by IH. The sample of used fuel could be chosen freely from the
charge inside the reactor, which means that if the material was
manipulated, all of it had to be so. Basically I guess you would have
needed to swap the reactor for another identical before opening.



​Harry​


[Vo]:Mats Lewan story on the new third party report

2014-10-08 Thread H Veeder
New scientific report on the E-Cat shows excess heat and nuclear process

http://matslew.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/new-scientific-report-on-the-e-cat-shows-excess-heat-and-nuclear-process/

​Harry​


Re: [Vo]:E-Cat Report Leaked- Sweden

2014-10-08 Thread H Veeder
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:16 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:


 Unfortunately there are some nuclear proliferation issues involved.





​In what way
?​


​Harry​


Re: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in

2014-10-08 Thread H Veeder
Jed, don't you think it is strange that the isotopic composition of the ash
closely resembles what is commercially available.
Also the ash is free of other elements that were present before the run.
That would make sense if the ash came from a commercial source
which didn't contain these elements.

This issue deserves prompt attention.

Harry



On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 9:58 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Jed, it doesn't matter.   If the ash is a fraud, Rossi is a fraud.   Plain
 and simple.   I'm not interesting in debating the other aspects of the
 experiment because of the complexities involved in calorimetry.

  There are no such complexities in the ash which makes the discussion very
 straightforward.   He either switched it out or he didn't.  He's either a
 liar or he isn't.  It's pretty simple..

 On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:


 I'm betting he's a fraud, simply because the probability of him doing
 this is too incredible.  What he's done is nothing short of miraculous.


 It is more miraculous than what Fleischmann and Pons and several hundred
 other groups have done. Do you think they are all frauds?

 In any case, your hypothesis does not get a free pass. If you say this is
 fraud, and you want anyone here to take you seriously, you will have to
 suggest a plausible way in which Rossi could carry it out. I do not mean
 the isotope changes; I realize it is physically possible for someone to
 swap the samples by sleight of hand. I mean how would he fool the
 calorimetry for 32 days when he was not present, and when none of
 instruments belong to him? Is Rossi capable of changing the
 Stephan-Boltzmann law? Can he magically alter an IR camera?

 If you cannot present a plausible, step-by-step description of how he did
 this, you are assertion has no merit. You might was well say, it was
 caused by invisible unicorns.



   It is total inflection point in the progress of humanity and all that
 we know.


 That inflection point came on March 23, 1989. In the long view of
 history, Rossi is a minor incremental improvement to FP.

 - Jed





Re: [Vo]:Pomp weighs in

2014-10-08 Thread H Veeder
It is strange if the ash contents really do resemble what is available
commercially.

​I read one suggestion on facebook, that the reactor could contian special
compartments like a magician's trick box . One thing goes in and a
different thing comes out depending on how the box is manipulated.​

Harry



On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 Unfortunate that in this day and age of trivial-cost 24/7 video
 surveillance that there isn't a complete audio-video log of such a critical
 experiment.  Such precautions would, of course, be unprecedented but no
 more so than the purported impact of the technology.


 They made a complete video of the experiment, plus a IR camera video. If
 someone tinkered with the cell both would show it.

 - Jed




<    1   2   3   4   5   6   >