Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
If the waste is identical to the fuel, that means no reaction involving it actually occurred, by definition. The material is at best merely a catalyst for a reaction with other fuel and waste. Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 15, 2011, at 22:52, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The scam status of the Rossi reactor has nothing to do with natural abundance in Lenr reactions. It has been shown that all Lenr reactions produce waste conformant to natural abundance. Like all Lenr reactions, the Rossi reactor show natural abundance in it’s ash product. This should lend credence to the claim that the Rossi reaction is real and that it is a valid Lenr Reaction. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Wait a minute. You want to change half the Standard Model of Physics in order to suggest that Rossi's device has some tiny chance of being theoretically possible in the oddball way that he thinks it is - when we're not even sure that it's not a total scam? ... now that is true devotion to a cause g -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder Has anyone described the necessary chain of stellar events that would produce the present isotopic abundance of copper and is there proof that all those events actually happened? My point is perhaps some elements/isotopes are formed naturally by a LENR process rather than by a succession of stellar events. Therefore the reason why the isotopic abundance produced by the Rossi reactor is natural is because the Rossi reactor emulates how nature does it. Harry
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
From Jay: Axil, please continue posting, your comments are appreciated. I second that. As I understand, this forum exists only for sharing information and ideas; personal comments should not be posted nor ever considered. Actually... keep in mind that Personal comments are often posted here. Personal comments are not what is at issue. There is a big difference between posting personal comments versus commentary meant to deride the character of other vort participants. Mr. Beaty has written a few personal definitions on posting behavior: See: http://amasci.com/weird/wvort.html Of particular note are the following technical definitions: ** The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Currently it has evolved into a discussion on taboo physics reports and research. SKEPTICS BEWARE, the topics wander from Cold Fusion, to reports of excess energy in Free Energy devices, gravity generation and detection, reports of theoretically impossible phenomena, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims. Before you subscribe, please see the rules below. This is a public, lightly- moderated smartlist list. There is no charge, but donations towards expenses are recommended. There is additional information worth reading. SOME PERSONAL THOUGHTS OF MY OWN: I find it refreshing that the vortex-l list is one of the most eclectic discussion groups I've ever run across. Not only is avant-garde scientific material discussed here, antidotes of a personal nature have often expressed here as well. Such eclectic combinations have resulted in a rich potpourri of intellect, science, and philosophical perspective which has the potential of enriching the lives of everyone who participates in what I like to call: The Vort Collective. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
On Apr 15, 2011, at 6:52 PM, Axil Axil wrote: The scam status of the Rossi reactor has nothing to do with natural abundance in Lenr reactions. It has been shown that all Lenr reactions produce waste conformant to natural abundance. Like all Lenr reactions, the Rossi reactor show natural abundance in it’s ash product. This should lend credence to the claim that the Rossi reaction is real and that it is a valid Lenr Reaction. Please provide references showing the above. The above looks to be complete nonsense. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
ON Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:10: Harry Veeder wrote [snip]Has anyone described the necessary chain of stellar events that would produce the present isotopic abundance of copper and is there proof that all those events actually happened? My point is perhaps some elements/isotopes are formed naturally by a LENR process rather than by a succession of stellar events. Therefore the reason why the isotopic abundance produced by the rossi reactor is natural is because the rossi reactor emulates how nature does it.[/snip] Harry, I think it is more a matter of proving how the Casimir environment is equivalent to the stellar environment. The hydrogen never reaches stellar temperatures and even appears to condense into forms that in some cases are even refered to as ice But I think this is a misnomer. If temp is based on motion/unit time then the number of reactions performed by reactants in a skeletal catalyst would qualify as very hot not cold but if Naudts is correct about a relativistic hydrino then this paradox is understandable. The Motion of the hydrino has very little spatial displacement because Casimir confinement approaches 2d from our perspective -The full spectrum of vacuum flux appears suppressed from our perspective but IMHO based on Naudt's paper the vacuum flux remain full spectrum inside the cavity by shifting the inertial frame dramatically - the Time dimension is always enlarged such that a local observer experiences the full spectrum of vacuum wavelengths - the present Casimir formula that describes longer wavelengths as being displaced has to be wrong for SR to apply to the hydrino. My point is the hydrino only appears flat and small from our perspective while between the plates the walls appear to shrink away and these gas atoms truly see time as a spatial direction - better explaining their ability to load and unload gases without pressure as they Seem to become smaller and smaller from our perspective. The point is the number of reactions these atoms accomplish while displaced on the time axis is only limited by how close to a perfect 90 degrees their time axis remains WRT our time axis outside the cavity. Even though They never reach a stellar environment from their own perspective there has to be some amount of energy balance involved in the translation When these gas populations return from the cavity having spent untold years from their perspectives bonding and disassociating back to our environment outside the cavity where only moments have elapsed. We cant observe the age of a hydrogen atom but the claims about radioactive half lives being accelerated seems to support the idea of a relativistic hydrino and therefore a relativistic interpretation of Casimir effect. I think LENR may be a relativistic energy balancing when a very large number of reactions that are occurring in a very negatively accelerated inertial frame translates back and forth between the small spatial volume of the cavity mouth in our inertial frame. I think the change in 1/d^3 from the Casimir formula relates to change in velocity v^2/C^2 from the gamma formula to resolve into equivalent acceleration - gravity inside the cavity - a very turbulent AC gravity or jerk that establishes a kind of QM blender to make what Jones refers to as a Quark soup - particularly in the zones where the 1/d^3 reaches it maximum the conflicting forces could tear apart the atom into it's sub atomic components. Fran
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Fran, * Harry, I think it is more a matter of proving how the Casimir environment is equivalent to the stellar environment. Which stellar environment? There are literally trillions of different stellar environments, all of them unique because the mass of the predecessor star is unique, but there is only one Casimir force. Are you suggesting that the Casimir force is different on every single planet? I think not. Or that on earth, this force somehow knows what the stellar environment was billions of years ago when the isotope balance was frozen into place, and can now match it? I find that preposterous. Each of these stars can have drastically different isotope balance, following a Nova. We know this as fact - because we occasionally find meteorites that come from different systems, or even from different time frames in the Nova that preceded earth. The isotope balances are vastly different. For instance, this was what Luis Alvarez used to pinpoint the cause of the last mass extinction. He found evidence of lots of iridium - and element that is extremely rare on earth, but it is found at massively increased levels (1000 times more) in the so-called K-T boundary layer. To imagine that LENR can operate to transmute elements in a way that matches exactly one of trillions of stellar events, and that it also is the exact match for the planet where the LENR occurs . LOL . think about the odds. Jones
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:04 Jones Beene wrote [snip]We know this as fact - because we occasionally find meteorites that come from different systems, or even from different time frames in the Nova that preceded earth. The isotope balances are vastly different.[/snip] Jones, Yes you are correct, your point about the meteorite turned me around. I am not even sure if I can even salvage a small point regarding the distribution from fusion vs LENR when limiting both reactions to only Hydrogen. Regards Fran
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Another factor might be the lapse of time from when the sample is active to when it was analysed.Perhaps the difference from the natural isotopic abundance only persists for a limited period of time once the reactor is switched off. Subsequent decay processes eventually give the sample a natural isotopic abundance. I have no idea if this is possible, but it would account for the difference between the Italian and Swedish measurements of isotopic abundance. Harry
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Here is the theory that you are rejecting laid out in detail from Miley http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/STAFF/VISITING_FELLOWSPROFESSORS/pdf/MagicQuarkTucson1.pdf *Boltzmann Equilibrium of Endothermic Heavy Nuclear Synthesis in the Universe and a Quark Relation to the Magic Numbers *** It is not Axil's theory, but one produced by Mille that I think most fits the facts. On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Fran, Ø Harry, I think it is more a matter of proving how the Casimir environment is equivalent to the stellar environment. Which stellar environment? There are literally trillions of different stellar environments, all of them unique because the mass of the predecessor star is unique, but there is only one Casimir force. Are you suggesting that the Casimir force is different on every single planet? I think not. Or that on earth, this force somehow “knows” what the stellar environment was billions of years ago when the isotope balance was frozen into place, and can now match it? I find that preposterous. Each of these stars can have drastically different isotope balance, following a Nova. We know this as fact - because we occasionally find meteorites that come from different systems, or even from different time frames in the Nova that preceded earth. The isotope balances are vastly different. For instance, this was what Luis Alvarez used to pinpoint the cause of the last mass extinction. He found evidence of lots of iridium – and element that is extremely rare on earth, but it is found at massively increased levels (1000 times more) in the so-called K-T boundary layer. To imagine that LENR can operate to transmute elements in a way that matches exactly one of trillions of stellar events, and that it also is the exact match for the planet where the LENR occurs … LOL … think about the odds. Jones
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Wow. I can see that science is a completely new field for you. Your take on this paper is bizarre and so removed from reality that I have to ask - what is your real profession? This report is about magic numbers, which are tendencies. There is absolutely nothing in this that supports this brain-dead idea of uniformity in isotopes in cosmology. Sure, there are tendencies but they as so weak that order-of-magnitude differences are the norm - not the exception. Geeze . we used to be able to have intelligent discussions here. Jones From: Axil Here is the theory that you are rejecting laid out in detail from Miley http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/STAFF/VISITING_FELLOWS http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/STAFF/VISITING_FELLOWSPROFESSORS/pdf/MagicQuar kTucson1.pdf PROFESSORS/pdf/MagicQuarkTucson1.pdf Boltzmann Equilibrium of Endothermic Heavy Nuclear Synthesis in the Universe and a Quark Relation to the Magic Numbers It is not Axil's theory, but one produced by Mille that I think most fits the facts. On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Fran, * Harry, I think it is more a matter of proving how the Casimir environment is equivalent to the stellar environment. Which stellar environment?
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
I am a systems engineer who has spent his career reverse engineering legacy systems where no documentation or human expertise exists. I have development an interest in cold fusion and am learning its ground rules. I have come to this site to learn from the experts... the best around. If I pursue wrong paths, I do not mean to offend, however, if my learning process offends too grievously, I will leave this site. So let me know is I am too much for you to bear in your response. On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Wow. I can see that science is a completely new field for you. Your take on this paper is bizarre and so removed from reality that I have to ask – what is your real profession? This report is about magic numbers, which are tendencies. There is absolutely nothing in this that supports this brain-dead idea of uniformity in isotopes in cosmology. Sure, there are tendencies but they as so weak that order-of-magnitude differences are the norm – not the exception. Geeze … we used to be able to have intelligent discussions here. Jones *From:* Axil Here is the theory that you are rejecting laid out in detail from Miley http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/STAFF/VISITING_FELLOWSPROFESSORS/pdf/MagicQuarkTucson1.pdf *Boltzmann Equilibrium of Endothermic Heavy Nuclear Synthesis in the Universe and a Quark Relation to the Magic Numbers * It is not Axil's theory, but one produced by Mille that I think most fits the facts. On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Fran, Ø Harry, I think it is more a matter of proving how the Casimir environment is equivalent to the stellar environment. Which stellar environment?
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Axil - My apologies. I was a bit frustrated at what seems to be beating a dead horse with this particular point . You have already demonstrated a creative mind, and the Mott insulator thing could be a strong insight. Again, sorry to go overboard there . Jones My double apology to any who has to deal with legacy systems :-) From: Axil Axil I am a systems engineer who has spent his career reverse engineering legacy systems where no documentation or human expertise exists. I have development an interest in cold fusion and am learning its ground rules. I have come to this site to learn from the experts... the best around. If I pursue wrong paths, I do not mean to offend, however, if my learning process offends too grievously, I will leave this site. So let me know is I am too much for you to bear in your response. On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Wow. I can see that science is a completely new field for you. Your take on this paper is bizarre and so removed from reality that I have to ask - what is your real profession? This report is about magic numbers, which are tendencies. There is absolutely nothing in this that supports this brain-dead idea of uniformity in isotopes in cosmology. Sure, there are tendencies but they as so weak that order-of-magnitude differences are the norm - not the exception. Geeze . we used to be able to have intelligent discussions here. Jones From: Axil Here is the theory that you are rejecting laid out in detail from Miley http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/STAFF/VISITING_FELLOWS http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/STAFF/VISITING_FELLOWSPROFESSORS/pdf/MagicQuar kTucson1.pdf PROFESSORS/pdf/MagicQuarkTucson1.pdf Boltzmann Equilibrium of Endothermic Heavy Nuclear Synthesis in the Universe and a Quark Relation to the Magic Numbers It is not Axil's theory, but one produced by Mille that I think most fits the facts. On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Fran, * Harry, I think it is more a matter of proving how the Casimir environment is equivalent to the stellar environment. Which stellar environment?
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Like all Lenr reactions, the Rossi reactor show natural abundance in it’s ash product. This should lend credence to the claim that the Rossi reaction is real and that it is a valid Lenr Reaction. Others have already pointed this out, but in every case so far, LENR transmuted elements have unnatural abundance. The abundance ratios are the same as those of the starting element. See Iwamura. That has been the rule for Pd-D and other deuterium systems. It is at least conceivable that H systems work differently, functioning as a microscopic supernova, producing elements with natural isotopic ratios. Jones Beene said that different supernova produce elements with different ratios. That is not my understanding. I believe the ratio at creation is the same throughout the universe. Different isotope ratios exist within the solar system, especially for light elements, such as the ratio of D to H on Mars, but that is not because the material that makes up Mars came from a different supernova than earth. I note there are studies of things like Interstellar isotope ratios from mm-wave molecular absorption spectra where the ratios are for heavy elements such C, N and S. If the ratios varied considerably at creation, more or less at random, I do not see how studies could reach a conclusion. This study found ratios the same as in the solar system, except C-13. The authors propose a reason for the discrepancy: fractionation. It wasn't that way at creation. If creation varied by supernova, the numbers would be all over the place I suppose. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Axil, please continue posting, your comments are appreciated. As I understand, this forum exists only for sharing information and ideas; personal comments should not be posted nor ever considered. Jay Caplan - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) I am a systems engineer who has spent his career reverse engineering legacy systems where no documentation or human expertise exists. I have development an interest in cold fusion and am learning its ground rules. I have come to this site to learn from the experts... the best around. If I pursue wrong paths, I do not mean to offend, however, if my learning process offends too grievously, I will leave this site. So let me know is I am too much for you to bear in your response. On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Wow. I can see that science is a completely new field for you. Your take on this paper is bizarre and so removed from reality that I have to ask – what is your real profession? This report is about magic numbers, which are tendencies. There is absolutely nothing in this that supports this brain-dead idea of uniformity in isotopes in cosmology. Sure, there are tendencies but they as so weak that order-of-magnitude differences are the norm – not the exception. Geeze … we used to be able to have intelligent discussions here. Jones From: Axil Here is the theory that you are rejecting laid out in detail from Miley http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/STAFF/VISITING_FELLOWSPROFESSORS/pdf/MagicQuarkTucson1.pdf Boltzmann Equilibrium of Endothermic Heavy Nuclear Synthesis in the Universe and a Quark Relation to the Magic Numbers It is not Axil's theory, but one produced by Mille that I think most fits the facts. On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Fran, Ø Harry, I think it is more a matter of proving how the Casimir environment is equivalent to the stellar environment. Which stellar environment?
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
The simplest explanation of this contradiction is that they do not want to tell what the isotopic ratio of Cu is- and will not tell till the scientific report of the Bologna Univ. is published. Unnnatural, natural? The first is a mistery at the 2nd power, the other a mystery at the 3rd power. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.comwrote: On january 2010 A new energy source they say that the isotpic ratio of Cu is nearly natural background. Source: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSanewenergy.pdf On March 2010 they correct it and say that isotopic ration of Cu is different from background. http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: The simplest explanation of this contradiction is that they do not want to tell what the isotopic ratio of Cu is No, the simplest explanation is that they are having difficulty doing mass spectroscopy, and they keep getting conflicting results. Many people do, even experienced researchers at major universities. Mizuno used to send a sample to three different groups of experts and get three different answers. With some samples, that is. It depends on the element, the extent of the shift, and the type of spectrometer. Some shifts are large and easily detected. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
On Apr 15, 2011, at 5:10 AM, Mattia Rizzi wrote: On january 2010 A new energy source they say that the isotpic ratio of Cu is nearly natural background. Source: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSanewenergy.pdf On March 2010 they correct it and say that isotopic ration of Cu is different from background. http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi- Focardi_paper.pdf I see their paper has the same typo mine did, namely: p + e -- n + v' which should read: p + e -- n + v It is a natural mistake to make and overlook, partly because the reverse reaction creates an antineutrino. The important statement referenced must be: These allowed us the determination of the ratio Cu63/Cu65=1,6 different from the value (2,24) relative to the copper isotopic natural composition. This shows an enrichment in Cu65 abundance over natural abundance. The article seems to ignore the huge signatures of radioactive products that should be in the ash. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
What you say means NO reliable measurements can be made. Take please a look at the Web for *Ni isotope measurements*. Inductively coupled mass spectrometry is very performant, even the small variations in natural abundance of the Ni isotopes can be measured and evaluated. If you wish I can found you an analytical lab relatively near to Atlanta and you could ask them about precision and price both for Ni and Cu. I can ask at my former workplace- however they have worked mainly with lighter elements/isotopes. Peter On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: The simplest explanation of this contradiction is that they do not want to tell what the isotopic ratio of Cu is No, the simplest explanation is that they are having difficulty doing mass spectroscopy, and they keep getting conflicting results. Many people do, even experienced researchers at major universities. Mizuno used to send a sample to three different groups of experts and get three different answers. With some samples, that is. It depends on the element, the extent of the shift, and the type of spectrometer. Some shifts are large and easily detected. - Jed -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Peter Gluck wrote: What you say means NO reliable measurements can be made. Experts tell me that would depend on who is making them. Take please a look at the Web for *Ni isotope measurements*. Inductively coupled mass spectrometry is very performant . . . Is that the method Focardi used? In both studies? The fact is, we have contradictory reports. Focardi says one thing, Essen says another. There are two possibilities: 1. They are getting different answers from the same sample (or the same type of sample) because one of them is doing mass spectroscopy incorrectly. 2. The sample they sent to Essen is fake. I discount explanation #2. I cannot think of any reason why they would bother to do that. If they didn't want him to learn the nature of the material, they would politely refused to send him anything. They would not go to the trouble of sending a carefully dummied-up fake sample. These people are busy and do not have time for such elaborate deceptions. Furthermore, why would they send him a fake sample that calls into question their claims, with natural isotopes? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
I don't suppose Essen took a look at the geometry of the sample? It would be telling to examine the composition with an electron microscope. T
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Could another variable be the amount of time that the ash spends in the Rossi reactor? When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. But when the reactor runs for a very long time, the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution, much like a large statistical sample will produce a reliable description of a large population. The isotopic ratios might all depend (as a function of time) on the way the ash was produced. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: The simplest explanation of this contradiction is that they do not want to tell what the isotopic ratio of Cu is- and will not tell till the scientific report of the Bologna Univ. is published. Unnnatural, natural? The first is a mistery at the 2nd power, the other a mystery at the 3rd power. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.comwrote: On january 2010 A new energy source they say that the isotpic ratio of Cu is nearly natural background. Source: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSanewenergy.pdf On March 2010 they correct it and say that isotopic ration of Cu is different from background. http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random No. Isotopic ratio from natural background is constant, with low deviation. in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. Check how many atoms (and isotopes) are contained inside 1g of matter. the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution This is non-sense. A nuclear reaction should produce non-natural distributions. From: Axil Axil Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:42 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) Could another variable be the amount of time that the ash spends in the Rossi reactor? When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. But when the reactor runs for a very long time, the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution, much like a large statistical sample will produce a reliable description of a large population. The isotopic ratios might all depend (as a function of time) on the way the ash was produced. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: The simplest explanation of this contradiction is that they do not want to tell what the isotopic ratio of Cu is- and will not tell till the scientific report of the Bologna Univ. is published. Unnnatural, natural? The first is a mistery at the 2nd power, the other a mystery at the 3rd power. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: On january 2010 A new energy source they say that the isotpic ratio of Cu is nearly natural background. Source: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSanewenergy.pdf On March 2010 they correct it and say that isotopic ration of Cu is different from background. http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Could the protons be fusing into Helium (perhaps providing some of the heat), and then the Helium burning? -Mark _ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 1:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) From: Mattia Rizzi the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution This is non-sense. A nuclear reaction should produce non-natural distributions. Yes. It is clear from the Swedish analysis that this is CANNOT be a nuclear of reaction of nickel at all. Nickel certainly can provide a good matrix in which protons fuse into deuterium. This seems to be the only conceivable way that the metal can maintain a natural distribution, and yet participate in the large amount of gain (in a non-nuclear way). If there is anything nuclear, and the metal isotope distribution is natural - then it is almost a guarantee that it must involve only hydrogen, no metal. This conclusion is falsifiable.
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Thank you for your insight. “If there is anything nuclear, and the metal isotope distribution is natural – then it is almost a guarantee that it must involve only hydrogen, no metal.” This is probable true. Would it not be ironic that the fusion/fission of just hydrogen produces nickel and copper without nickel entering into the reaction in any way, contray to what Rossi thinks? I am surprised that you are not well versed in the work of the LENR team: Dr H. Hora, and Dr. G.H. Miley. From a large volume of LENR experimental results, Dr Miley has developed a theory of LENR transmutation that predicts this natural abundance of isotopes around the magic atomic numbers of 2, 6, 14, 28, 50, 82, 126… Now, 28 is the atomic number of nickel, and the fission of the super atom formed during the fusion of many atoms will result in an array of elements that cluster around peaks defined by these magic numbers: 2 – helium 6 – carbon 14 – silicon 28 – nickel There will be many transmutation events producing nickel whose atomic number (A) is 28, but also some lesser amounts producing copper (A = 29) and even less zinc (A = 30). On the other side of the Boltzmann quark distribution described by the expression N(Z) = N’ exp (-Z/Z’) where Z’ = 10. You get more cobalt (A = 27) and even less Iron (A = 26). All these elements have been seen is Rossi ash. Around the lower order magic numbers carbon (A = 6) and silicon(A = 14) are clustered the following elements: 8 - Oxygen 9 - Fluorine(captured to form fluorides) 10 - Neon (outgased ?) 11 - Sodium 12 - Magnesium 13- Silicon (mentioned as ash) 14 - Phosphorus 15 – Sulfur (mentioned as ash) 16 – Chlorine (mentioned as ash) 17 – Argon (outgased ?) 18 – Potassium (mentioned as ash) 19 – Calcium (mentioned as ash) A further consequence of the LENR evaluation leads to the ratios R (n) (n = 1, 2, 3…) of the Boltzmann probabilities, namely R (n) = 3n. This suggests a threefold property of stable configurations at magic numbers in nuclei, consistent with a quark property. It is as if a large amount of hydrogen atoms form into a cold plasma go into a quantum mechanical blender and turned into a coherent quark soup. In an instant, when the quark soup fissions, this LENR process produces atoms whose isotopic character is the same as exists in nature. This is to be expected since the inherent properties of quarks define what comes out of the fission process. This LENR fission process is done so gently and at such low energies that no unstable (radioactive) elements are produced. Emitted X-rays energies correspond to the speeds of these various fission fragments rebounding away from the center of this fission process. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.comwrote: When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random No. Isotopic ratio from natural background is constant, with low deviation. in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. Check how many atoms (and isotopes) are contained inside 1g of matter. the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution This is non-sense. A nuclear reaction should produce non-natural distributions. *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *Sent:* Friday, April 15, 2011 9:42 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) Could another variable be the amount of time that the ash spends in the Rossi reactor? When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. But when the reactor runs for a very long time, the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution, much like a large statistical sample will produce a reliable description of a large population. The isotopic ratios might all depend (as a function of time) on the way the ash was produced. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.comwrote: The simplest explanation of this contradiction is that they do not want to tell what the isotopic ratio of Cu is- and will not tell till the scientific report of the Bologna Univ. is published. Unnnatural, natural? The first is a mistery at the 2nd power, the other a mystery at the 3rd power. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.comwrote: On january 2010 A new energy source they say that the isotpic ratio of Cu is nearly natural background. Source: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSanewenergy.pdf On March 2010 they correct it and say that isotopic ration of Cu is different from background. http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Perhaps the 'secret' catalyst is the Nickel and its catalyzing the fusion of H into He... -Mark _ From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 2:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) Thank you for your insight. If there is anything nuclear, and the metal isotope distribution is natural - then it is almost a guarantee that it must involve only hydrogen, no metal. This is probable true. Would it not be ironic that the fusion/fission of just hydrogen produces nickel and copper without nickel entering into the reaction in any way, contray to what Rossi thinks? I am surprised that you are not well versed in the work of the LENR team: Dr H. Hora, and Dr. G.H. Miley. From a large volume of LENR experimental results, Dr Miley has developed a theory of LENR transmutation that predicts this natural abundance of isotopes around the magic atomic numbers of 2, 6, 14, 28, 50, 82, 126. Now, 28 is the atomic number of nickel, and the fission of the super atom formed during the fusion of many atoms will result in an array of elements that cluster around peaks defined by these magic numbers: 2 - helium 6 - carbon 14 - silicon 28 - nickel There will be many transmutation events producing nickel whose atomic number (A) is 28, but also some lesser amounts producing copper (A = 29) and even less zinc (A = 30). On the other side of the Boltzmann quark distribution described by the expression N(Z) = N' exp (-Z/Z') where Z' = 10. You get more cobalt (A = 27) and even less Iron (A = 26). All these elements have been seen is Rossi ash. Around the lower order magic numbers carbon (A = 6) and silicon(A = 14) are clustered the following elements: 8 - Oxygen 9 - Fluorine(captured to form fluorides) 10 - Neon (outgased ?) 11 - Sodium 12 - Magnesium 13- Silicon (mentioned as ash) 14 - Phosphorus 15 - Sulfur (mentioned as ash) 16 - Chlorine (mentioned as ash) 17 - Argon (outgased ?) 18 - Potassium (mentioned as ash) 19 - Calcium (mentioned as ash) A further consequence of the LENR evaluation leads to the ratios R (n) (n = 1, 2, 3.) of the Boltzmann probabilities, namely R (n) = 3n. This suggests a threefold property of stable configurations at magic numbers in nuclei, consistent with a quark property. It is as if a large amount of hydrogen atoms form into a cold plasma go into a quantum mechanical blender and turned into a coherent quark soup. In an instant, when the quark soup fissions, this LENR process produces atoms whose isotopic character is the same as exists in nature. This is to be expected since the inherent properties of quarks define what comes out of the fission process. This LENR fission process is done so gently and at such low energies that no unstable (radioactive) elements are produced. Emitted X-rays energies correspond to the speeds of these various fission fragments rebounding away from the center of this fission process. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random No. Isotopic ratio from natural background is constant, with low deviation. in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. Check how many atoms (and isotopes) are contained inside 1g of matter. the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution This is non-sense. A nuclear reaction should produce non-natural distributions. From: Axil Axil mailto:janap...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:42 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) Could another variable be the amount of time that the ash spends in the Rossi reactor? When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. But when the reactor runs for a very long time, the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution, much like a large statistical sample will produce a reliable description of a large population. The isotopic ratios might all depend (as a function of time) on the way the ash was produced. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: The simplest explanation of this contradiction is that they do not want to tell what the isotopic ratio of Cu is- and will not tell till the scientific report of the Bologna Univ. is published. Unnnatural, natural? The first is a mistery at the 2nd power, the other a mystery at the 3rd power. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: On january 2010 A new energy source they say that the isotpic ratio of Cu is nearly natural background. Source: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSanewenergy.pdf On March 2010 they correct it and say that isotopic ration of Cu
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
As per my last post, helium is produced in large amounts because it is one of the magic number elements. But the fusion of helium is not required for the formation of the other elements in the Rossi ash. IMHO, at the current time, the catalytic interaction at the surface interfaces of a heterogeneous admixture of iron and nickel nano-particles produces a fusion/fission reaction of only hydrogen resulting in the isotopic ash distribution seen in the Rossi ash product. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Perhaps the 'secret' catalyst is the Nickel and its catalyzing the fusion of H into He... -Mark -- *From:* Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, April 15, 2011 2:11 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) Thank you for your insight. “If there is anything nuclear, and the metal isotope distribution is natural – then it is almost a guarantee that it must involve only hydrogen, no metal.” This is probable true. Would it not be ironic that the fusion/fission of just hydrogen produces nickel and copper without nickel entering into the reaction in any way, contray to what Rossi thinks? I am surprised that you are not well versed in the work of the LENR team: Dr H. Hora, and Dr. G.H. Miley. From a large volume of LENR experimental results, Dr Miley has developed a theory of LENR transmutation that predicts this natural abundance of isotopes around the magic atomic numbers of 2, 6, 14, 28, 50, 82, 126… Now, 28 is the atomic number of nickel, and the fission of the super atom formed during the fusion of many atoms will result in an array of elements that cluster around peaks defined by these magic numbers: 2 – helium 6 – carbon 14 – silicon 28 – nickel There will be many transmutation events producing nickel whose atomic number (A) is 28, but also some lesser amounts producing copper (A = 29) and even less zinc (A = 30). On the other side of the Boltzmann quark distribution described by the expression N(Z) = N’ exp (-Z/Z’) where Z’ = 10. You get more cobalt (A = 27) and even less Iron (A = 26). All these elements have been seen is Rossi ash. Around the lower order magic numbers carbon (A = 6) and silicon(A = 14) are clustered the following elements: 8 - Oxygen 9 - Fluorine(captured to form fluorides) 10 - Neon (outgased ?) 11 - Sodium 12 - Magnesium 13- Silicon (mentioned as ash) 14 - Phosphorus 15 – Sulfur (mentioned as ash) 16 – Chlorine (mentioned as ash) 17 – Argon (outgased ?) 18 – Potassium (mentioned as ash) 19 – Calcium (mentioned as ash) A further consequence of the LENR evaluation leads to the ratios R (n) (n = 1, 2, 3…) of the Boltzmann probabilities, namely R (n) = 3n. This suggests a threefold property of stable configurations at magic numbers in nuclei, consistent with a quark property. It is as if a large amount of hydrogen atoms form into a cold plasma go into a quantum mechanical blender and turned into a coherent quark soup. In an instant, when the quark soup fissions, this LENR process produces atoms whose isotopic character is the same as exists in nature. This is to be expected since the inherent properties of quarks define what comes out of the fission process. This LENR fission process is done so gently and at such low energies that no unstable (radioactive) elements are produced. Emitted X-rays energies correspond to the speeds of these various fission fragments rebounding away from the center of this fission process. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.comwrote: When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random No. Isotopic ratio from natural background is constant, with low deviation. in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. Check how many atoms (and isotopes) are contained inside 1g of matter. the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution This is non-sense. A nuclear reaction should produce non-natural distributions. *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *Sent:* Friday, April 15, 2011 9:42 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) Could another variable be the amount of time that the ash spends in the Rossi reactor? When the Reaction first begins, the isotopic ratios could be random in the same way that a few samples among a population will produce widely varied statistics. But when the reactor runs for a very long time, the isotopic ratios begin to resolve around a natural distribution, much like a large statistical sample will produce a reliable description of a large population. The isotopic ratios might all depend (as a function of time) on the way the ash was produced. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.comwrote
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:11:56 Axil wrote [snip] It is as if a large amount of hydrogen atoms form into a cold plasma go into a quantum mechanical blender and turned into a coherent quark soup. In an instant, when the quark soup fissions, this LENR process produces atoms whose isotopic character is the same as exists in nature. This is to be expected since the inherent properties of quarks define what comes out of the fission process. This LENR fission process is done so gently and at such low energies that no unstable (radioactive) elements are produced, Emitted X-rays energies correspond to the speeds of these various fission fragments rebounding away from the center of this fission process.[/snip] Axil, I like your term Gentle fissions and your concept that only the hydrogen is participating to produce the natural distribution of elements and isotopes based on magic numbers, It agrees with my hunch that hydrides are only formed when The system is self destructing in runaway. It is very likely the threshold temperature and control loop are intended to turn the hydrogen gas into a bond state oscillator where h2 keeps getting disassociated then cooled back down to reform h2 and emit energy over and over again. your blender? The threshold level is discounted by the nickel geometry creating a tapestry of different vacuum energy densities as the atoms appear to shrink down between ever smaller geometries. I think these small atoms reflect normal catalytic action amplified by Casimir geometry and the relativistic nature Naudts suggested for the hydrino actually applies to any reactants in a catalyst. My point is the energy density suppression between Casimir boundaries accelerates time from our perspective exactly like the increased energy density of a stellar mass slows time from our perspective. The slow gradient of changes in energy density at our scale are not mirrored by the abrupt changes provided by nature in the surfaces of Casimir cavities, As an atom seems to shrink into ever smaller Casimir confinement these dramatic changes in energy density are equivalent to changes in velocity on the spatial axis - what we see as time dilation appears to these gas atoms like open space and random accelerations that keep pumping more and more gas, deeper and deeper into this relativistic plane with your blender/bond state oscillator. Fran
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Mattia Rizzi wrote: A nuclear reaction should produce non-natural distributions. but how did the natural distributions arise in the first place? Harry
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Our sun is a second (or third) generation star. The previous supernova which created all of the elements and isotope balances that are found on earth, are the products of a certain starting mass, age, temperature, and other variables that existed billions of years ago. These influenced that prior Nova, and determined precisely what we see today as unique isotope ratios in our (local) system among trillions of other unique systems. All of them are different locally. However, physical nuclear reactions are supposed to be universal, not local. For a universal reaction to reproduce the exact same ratio as found in a 10 billion year old nova/supernova, one of trillions ... well, the odds of that happening are ... shall we say - astronomical? -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder Mattia Rizzi wrote: A nuclear reaction should produce non-natural distributions. but how did the natural distributions arise in the first place? Harry
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
On Apr 15, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Mark Iverson wrote: Could the protons be fusing into Helium (perhaps providing some of the heat), and then the Helium burning? -Mark Yes, however this then provides no explanation for the large amount of copper. 60Ni28 + 2 p* -- 58Ni28 + 4He2 + 7.909 MeV [-8.973 MeV] 62Ni28 + p* -- 59Co27 + 4He2 + 00.346 MeV [-7.760 MeV] 64Ni28 + 2 p* -- 62Ni28 + 4He2 + 11.800 MeV [-4.734 MeV] 64Ni28 + 4 p* -- 64Zn30 + 4He2 + 25.635 MeV [-9.362 MeV] Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Has anyone described the necessary chain of stellar events that would produce the present isotopic abundance of copper and is there proof that all those events actually happened? My point is perhaps some elements/isotopes are formed naturally by a LENR process rather than by a succession of stellar events. Therefore the reason why the isotopic abundance produced by the rossi reactor is natural is because the rossi reactor emulates how nature does it. Harry - Original Message From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, April 15, 2011 8:43:40 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat) Our sun is a second (or third) generation star. The previous supernova which created all of the elements and isotope balances that are found on earth, are the products of a certain starting mass, age, temperature, and other variables that existed billions of years ago. These influenced that prior Nova, and determined precisely what we see today as unique isotope ratios in our (local) system among trillions of other unique systems. All of them are different locally. However, physical nuclear reactions are supposed to be universal, not local. For a universal reaction to reproduce the exact same ratio as found in a 10 billion year old nova/supernova, one of trillions ... well, the odds of that happening are ... shall we say - astronomical? -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder Mattia Rizzi wrote: A nuclear reaction should produce non-natural distributions. but how did the natural distributions arise in the first place? Harry
RE: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
Wait a minute. You want to change half the Standard Model of Physics in order to suggest that Rossi's device has some tiny chance of being theoretically possible in the oddball way that he thinks it is - when we're not even sure that it's not a total scam? ... now that is true devotion to a cause g -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder Has anyone described the necessary chain of stellar events that would produce the present isotopic abundance of copper and is there proof that all those events actually happened? My point is perhaps some elements/isotopes are formed naturally by a LENR process rather than by a succession of stellar events. Therefore the reason why the isotopic abundance produced by the Rossi reactor is natural is because the Rossi reactor emulates how nature does it. Harry
Re: [Vo]:About isotopic ratio on spent fuel (E-Cat)
The scam status of the Rossi reactor has nothing to do with natural abundance in Lenr reactions. It has been shown that all Lenr reactions produce waste conformant to natural abundance. Like all Lenr reactions, the Rossi reactor show natural abundance in it’s ash product. This should lend credence to the claim that the Rossi reaction is real and that it is a valid Lenr Reaction. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Wait a minute. You want to change half the Standard Model of Physics in order to suggest that Rossi's device has some tiny chance of being theoretically possible in the oddball way that he thinks it is - when we're not even sure that it's not a total scam? ... now that is true devotion to a cause g -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder Has anyone described the necessary chain of stellar events that would produce the present isotopic abundance of copper and is there proof that all those events actually happened? My point is perhaps some elements/isotopes are formed naturally by a LENR process rather than by a succession of stellar events. Therefore the reason why the isotopic abundance produced by the Rossi reactor is natural is because the Rossi reactor emulates how nature does it. Harry
