subject:"Re\: \[Vo\]\:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan"



On Nov 7, 2008, at 11:46 PM, thomas malloy wrote:


Edmund Storms wrote:

I find the logic of this discussion odd. If, as Christians,  
Muslims  and Jews believe, there is but one God, then they are all  
worshiping  that one God no matter what they call it.


You're making the assumption that there is only one super human  
entity desiring to be worshiped as God, Ed, and you know what  
happens when you assume.


But Thomas, I'm not assuming anything. I'm only describing what the  
religions say they believe.  Are you saying that many Gods exist, only  
one of which your religion worships?



If many Gods exist, as  Hindus believe then we have a problem.  In  
any case, does anyone think  that God would care if this puny,  
ignorant life form we call human  happens to worship in the wrong  
way or misspells the name.


He cares because this is a purification process.


I have no idea what this means. My point was that a supreme being can  
easily see through  spelling God as G-d or not be distracted by a  
variation in ritual if the intention is to have humans achieve higher  
awareness.



.  This benefit only occurs when we use this instruction to  live a  
better life, no matter what the instruction is called.  So, why  do  
we humans keep doing the opposite?


Sin


I find that one man's sin is the expression of another man's self  
interest.  Also the definition of sin is different in the different  
religions, some times bordering on the trivial.   The word seems to be  
a catch all to include everything the religion does want people to do.



Why do we keep insisting that  our instruction is the only one that  
counts? Why would any rational  person think they have all the  
answers about the nature of God?


It isn't from me, it's a literal interpretation of what the Bible  
says. The only path for a fallen human to reconcile himself to a  
holy G-d is through the system laid on in the Bible.


Don't you think that belief is an assumption?  Don't you think God  
would have updated his instruction manual by now?  After all. its has  
been over 2000 years and a lot has changed.


Ed






On Nov 6, 2008, at 9:31 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:49 PM, thomas malloy wrote:


Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:19 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:



Pope urged to admit common ground

Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran  
which  the scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam  
worship the  same God, and require their respective followers  
to show each  other particular friendship...




If it is the same Abraham it is the same God.



It takes a graduate school education in order to believe  
something  that  stupid.



On the contrary, I don't even have a bachelor's degree.  I merely   
state the obvious, and not from some book or faith.  Christians,   
Jews, and Muslims worship the one God of Abraham.  Since it is  
the  same Abraham it is logically necessarily that it is the same  
God.



We worship different gods,



Repeating yourself is not a demonstration of rational thought.

we have different holy books, which have produced different  
legal  systems, which have resulted to two different civilizations.



A difference in holy books, legal systems and civilizations  
merely  demonstrates the degree to which religion is a product of  
man and  interpreted in differing ways by different people. These  
things have  nothing to do with whether the God of Abraham, which  
Christians,  Jews and Muslims worship, is necessarily the same God.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/




--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html 
 ---

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-08 Thread OrionWorks

Ed sez:

 Don't you think that belief is an assumption?  Don't you
 think God would have updated his instruction manual by now?
 After all. its has been over 2000 years and a lot has changed.

 Ed

Perhaps the lack of change as perceived by some may be due to the fact
that, at least on Planet Earth, the process has been held up by
disagreements over the beta releases.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


Good idea, Steven. This would make the Bible the Vista version.

Ed


On Nov 8, 2008, at 8:49 AM, OrionWorks wrote:


Ed sez:


Don't you think that belief is an assumption?  Don't you
think God would have updated his instruction manual by now?
After all. its has been over 2000 years and a lot has changed.

Ed


Perhaps the lack of change as perceived by some may be due to the fact
that, at least on Planet Earth, the process has been held up by
disagreements over the beta releases.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-08 Thread Harry Veeder

and each new (christian) church is the latest patch?

harry

- Original Message -
From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

 Good idea, Steven. This would make the Bible the Vista version.

 Ed

 On Nov 8, 2008, at 8:49 AM, OrionWorks wrote:

  Ed sez:

  Don't you think that belief is an assumption?  Don't you
  think God would have updated his instruction manual by now?
  After all. its has been over 2000 years and a lot has changed.

  Ed

  Perhaps the lack of change as perceived by some may be due to the 
 fact that, at least on Planet Earth, the process has been held up by
  disagreements over the beta releases.

  Regards
  Steven Vincent Johnson
  www.OrionWorks.com
  www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-08 Thread OrionWorks

Ed sez:

 ...This would make the Bible the Vista version.

I refuse to convert.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


Good choice. You must be a Mac user.

Ed
On Nov 8, 2008, at 2:09 PM, OrionWorks wrote:


Ed sez:


...This would make the Bible the Vista version.


I refuse to convert.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-08 Thread OrionWorks

Ed sez:

 Good choice. You must be a Mac user.

 On Nov 8, 2008, at 2:09 PM, OrionWorks wrote:

  Ed sez:
 
  ...This would make the Bible the Vista version.
 
  I refuse to convert.

Alas, we humble employees of the state of Wisconsin we are solidly of
the XP faith.

I'm incapable of multi-tasking two religions at the same time. I was
not born with on-board Dual Core processor capacity.

My next upgrade - Quad and beyond.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Not much physics, David, but there could be science involved. Suppose
a reality exists independent of this one. Would not an effort to
understand this reality be interesting, independent of the old and
primitive explanations provided by religion? By the way, I don't
think Buddhists are atheists. They believe in a spirit reality that is
too complex for the human mind to comprehend, although they make an
effort. They ignore God because this concept has no meaning to
rational people. This is not to deny that intelligence exist in the
spirit world. The view is that this intelligence does not have the
characteristics that the religions require of God.

On Nov 8, 2008, at 7:35 AM, David Jonsson wrote:

Where is the physics in all of this?

Surely the atheist Buddhists have a point when they criticize
western physics which they find opinionated. This is consistent with
how Buddhists in general criticize theistic engagements and no one
can deny that the strong Christian tradition in the west could have
affected physics. Buddhists have written many books on the subject
from the philosophical standpoint. Concepts like randomness and
statistical concepts are criticized as being used without
motivation. The physicists are being criticized for doing as they
think objective choices when in fact they are doing a personal
choice. They western physics vacuum is not as void as the Buddhist
void. Surely Buddhists are not that well trained in physics but they
are better trained in what physics relies upon: philosophy. So, do
read their critique. I am sure a lot of you will get angry just like
I did.

On the other hand physics seems more developed in the theistic world
compared to the buddhistic.

Specifically regarding Islam in the west I am not sure that I share
Powell's view that it is important to support Islam in the west.
This could give the wrong impression to the Muslims. The case is
that the western societies don't at all fit well with the tradition
of islam. And when it comes to the central doctrine of submission
there is neither strong support of it. I think the best thing to do
is to clarify the conditions in west. Americans should also be aware
that Western Europe is about to become Muslim due to the higher
reproduction among Muslims in western Europe compared to native
reproduction. (Se http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe#Muslim_populations_in_Europe
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate
) By 2020 our third largest city will have a majority of Muslims.
This has never been decided upon and it seems like the ones who were
set to manage the well being of ethnic Swedes have failed their
assignment. This could lead to civil unrest and conflict. Much more
could be said about this but does it fit here?

It could also be worth mentioning that I don't belong to those who
decided to support the latest invasion of Iraq so I don't
specifically speak out on how to treat dead soldiers in that conflict.

David

On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 7:46 AM, thomas malloy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Edmund Storms wrote:

I find the logic of this discussion odd. If, as Christians, Muslims
and Jews believe, there is but one God, then they are all
worshiping that one God no matter what they call it.

You're making the assumption that there is only one super human
entity desiring to be worshiped as God, Ed, and you know what
happens when you assume.

If many Gods exist, as Hindus believe then we have a problem. In
any case, does anyone think that God would care if this puny,
ignorant life form we call human happens to worship in the wrong
way or misspells the name.

He cares because this is a purification process.

. This benefit only occurs when we use this instruction to live a
better life, no matter what the instruction is called. So, why do
we humans keep doing the opposite?

Sin

Why do we keep insisting that our instruction is the only one that
counts? Why would any rational person think they have all the
answers about the nature of God?

It isn't from me, it's a literal interpretation of what the Bible
says. The only path for a fallen human to reconcile himself to a
holy G-d is through the system laid on in the Bible.

On Nov 6, 2008, at 9:31 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:

On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:49 PM, thomas malloy wrote:

Horace Heffner wrote:

On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:19 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:

Pope urged to admit common ground

Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran which
the scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam worship the
same God, and require their respective followers to show each other
particular friendship...

If it is the same Abraham it is the same God.

It takes a graduate school education in order to believe something
that stupid.

On the contrary, I don't even have a bachelor's degree.

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-08 Thread thomas malloy


Edmund Storms wrote:



On Nov 7, 2008, at 11:46 PM, thomas malloy wrote:


Edmund Storms wrote:

I find the logic of this discussion odd. If, as Christians,  
Muslims  and Jews believe, there is but one God, then they are all  
worshiping  that one God no matter what they call it.



You're making the assumption that there is only one super human  
entity desiring to be worshiped as God, Ed, and you know what  
happens when you assume.



But Thomas, I'm not assuming anything. I'm only describing what the  
religions say they believe.  Are you saying that many Gods exist, 
only  one of which your religion worships?


In the beginning G-d (Yahweh) created the heavens and the earth. Some 
time later, his choir director, Lucifer, rebelled against him. This 
brought sin into the the world. Adam and Eve followed him into sin. The 
rest of the Bible details G-d's plan to rescue the part of fallen 
humanity who chose to follow him.


That's one religious system. Then there's all the rest. The Bible is 
unique in that it says that it is the only path by which fallen man can 
reconcile himself to a holy G-d.


 

If many Gods exist, as  Hindus believe then we have a problem.  In  
any case, does anyone think  that God would care if this puny,  
ignorant life form we call human  happens to worship in the wrong  
way or misspells the name.



He cares because this is a purification process.



I have no idea what this means. My point was that a supreme being can  
easily see through  spelling God as G-d or not be distracted by a  
variation in ritual if the intention is to have humans achieve higher  
awareness.


Well of course you don't understand it, you don't have a Biblical World 
View. The Holy Torah spells out what we call kodesh, it involves 
following the 613 mitzvots (commandments)  spelled out in it.





.  This benefit only occurs when we use this instruction to  live a  
better life, no matter what the instruction is called.  So, why  do  
we humans keep doing the opposite?



Sin



I find that one man's sin is the expression of another man's self  
interest.  Also the definition of sin is different in the different  
religions, some times bordering on the trivial.   The word seems to 
be  a catch all to include everything the religion does want people to 
do.


If you want to gain some understanding about this, I would suggest that 
you read the Holy Torah, any Bible has one. You won't like it, but it's 
a take it or leave it deal.





Why do we keep insisting that  our instruction is the only one that  
counts? Why would any rational  person think they have all the  
answers about the nature of God?



It isn't from me, it's a literal interpretation of what the Bible  
says. The only path for a fallen human to reconcile himself to a  
holy G-d is through the system laid on in the Bible.



Don't you think that belief is an assumption?  Don't you think God  
would have updated his instruction manual by now?  After all. its has  
been over 2000 years and a lot has changed.


It's been almost 6000 years. You need to understand that he created 
only 7000 years of time. The Kabbalists picture a bubble, time exists 
on it's edge. It's a one way street, time. When we reach the end it 
changes back into eternity.



As for an assumptions; I can't believe that either the universe or 
life happened spontaneously. It's also clear to me that the world is 
going down hill, at an increasing rate of speed. I also believe that 
there is a termination coming, that's the beginning of the purification.


I have reason to believe that it's 5997, something significant is 
supposed to happen at the end of the 6000th year, so eini mimi mini mo, 
pick your plan it's time to go.




--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-07 Thread R C Macaulay


Howdy Mark,
The thread has been more rant than rave but stimuilating to science.
For example.. consider the meaning and the word  TIME. Has science 
reconciled time , it's meaning and purpose ?
If you started a digital clock display this moment , and if this was a 
wonder clock that would accumulate and display elapsed time forever... 
then.. the total time displayed, regardless of how many years , eons, etc 
elapsed...  still, would never equal the amount of time that had already 
passed before you started the clock.
The concept of infinity makes time something that can have the strange 
consequence of looping around and biting itself on its tail.. hmmm
Christianity may have been around since the named was coined some 2000 
years, However, my infinite God is forever.. When one considers the word 
forever.. and it's implications, it simply cannot reconcile with science 
because it is conceptual and beyond the realm of physical understanding.. 
this, we believer-followers in Christ call faith and non believers call 
religion. The stumbling block is in describing  Christ forever, yesterday, 
today and tomorrow. It has thrown many a good man.

Richard




Interesting discussion!

Who was it that suggested that religions usually last about 1500 to 2000 
years? By then, because the
religion is static but society evolves, the symbols lose their meaning and 
impact, and the old
religion belief system is cast off, and a new one comes in to replace 
it, and the symbols that
still had meaning reappear in the new religion... but with modifications. 
Was it Joseph Campbell

who proposed this?

Might I also remind all that Christianity is 2000 years old!
;-)

-Mark

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-07 Thread thomas malloy


Edmund Storms wrote:

I find the logic of this discussion odd. If, as Christians, Muslims  
and Jews believe, there is but one God, then they are all worshiping  
that one God no matter what they call it.


You're making the assumption that there is only one super human entity 
desiring to be worshiped as God, Ed, and you know what happens when you 
assume.


If many Gods exist, as  Hindus believe then we have a problem.  In any 
case, does anyone think  that God would care if this puny, ignorant 
life form we call human  happens to worship in the wrong way or 
misspells the name.


He cares because this is a purification process.

.  This benefit only occurs when we use this instruction to  live a 
better life, no matter what the instruction is called.  So, why  do we 
humans keep doing the opposite?


Sin

Why do we keep insisting that  our instruction is the only one that 
counts? Why would any rational  person think they have all the answers 
about the nature of God?


It isn't from me, it's a literal interpretation of what the Bible says. 
The only path for a fallen human to reconcile himself to a holy G-d is 
through the system laid on in the Bible.





On Nov 6, 2008, at 9:31 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:49 PM, thomas malloy wrote:


Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:19 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:



Pope urged to admit common ground

Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran which  
the scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam worship the  
same God, and require their respective followers to show each  
other particular friendship...




If it is the same Abraham it is the same God.



It takes a graduate school education in order to believe something  
that  stupid.



On the contrary, I don't even have a bachelor's degree.  I merely  
state the obvious, and not from some book or faith.  Christians,  
Jews, and Muslims worship the one God of Abraham.  Since it is the  
same Abraham it is logically necessarily that it is the same God.



We worship different gods,



Repeating yourself is not a demonstration of rational thought.

we have different holy books, which have produced different legal  
systems, which have resulted to two different civilizations.



A difference in holy books, legal systems and civilizations merely  
demonstrates the degree to which religion is a product of man and  
interpreted in differing ways by different people. These things have  
nothing to do with whether the God of Abraham, which Christians,  
Jews and Muslims worship, is necessarily the same God.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/




--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-06 Thread OrionWorks

 Thomas wrote:
Horace Heffner wrote:

 Pope urged to admit common ground

 Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran which the
 scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam worship the same
 God, and require their respective followers to show each other
 particular friendship...

 If it is the same Abraham it is the same God.

 It takes a graduate school education in order to believe
 something that stupid. We worship different gods, we have
 different holy books, which have produced different legal
 systems, which have resulted to two different civilizations.

Hi Thomas,

I could be wrong on this personal assessment of mine, but I get the
sense that you are done educating me for now, and have instead decided
to chip away at the ideologies of other vort members, perhaps in the
hope of achieving better results. But again, that is a somewhat
arrogant assessment on my part.

Again, with apologies to the atheist members of Vort may I offer up
the following personal perception:

It seems to me that you need to envision great distinctions that exist
between your vision of a Kingdom of Heaven and a lot of other visions
concerning the Kingdom of Heaven.

I realize it's possible that you may not at the moment appreciate the
following invitation, but I do want you to know that you are always
welcome in my Kingdom of Heaven. Actually, how stupid of me to put it
is such possessive terms as it it isn't really my Kingdom of Heaven
to parcel out to anyone, not anymore than your current Kingdom of
Heaven is yours to parcel to whom you perceive as the lucky few who
follow the correct beliefs and adhere to the correct rituals. It
remains my perception that the Kingdom of Heaven has always been
everyone's right, that there are no Gated Communities in g*d's eye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gated_community

It's only been we humans, immersed in our own ignorance and fears, who
desperately attempt to gate g*d within our exclusive community - and
to hell with everyone else. I doubt g*d falls for that.

Regards

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-06 Thread Horace Heffner



On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:49 PM, thomas malloy wrote:


Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:19 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:



Pope urged to admit common ground

Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran which  
the scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam worship the  
same God, and require their respective followers to show each  
other particular friendship...




If it is the same Abraham it is the same God.


It takes a graduate school education in order to believe something  
that  stupid.


On the contrary, I don't even have a bachelor's degree.  I merely  
state the obvious, and not from some book or faith.  Christians,  
Jews, and Muslims worship the one God of Abraham.  Since it is the  
same Abraham it is logically necessarily that it is the same God.



We worship different gods,


Repeating yourself is not a demonstration of rational thought.

we have different holy books, which have produced different legal  
systems, which have resulted to two different civilizations.


A difference in holy books, legal systems and civilizations merely  
demonstrates the degree to which religion is a product of man and  
interpreted in differing ways by different people. These things have  
nothing to do with whether the God of Abraham, which Christians, Jews  
and Muslims worship, is necessarily the same God.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

I find the logic of this discussion odd. If, as Christians, Muslims  
and Jews believe, there is but one God, then they are all worshiping  
that one God no matter what they call it.  If many Gods exist, as  
Hindus believe then we have a problem.  In any case, does anyone think  
that God would care if this puny, ignorant life form we call human  
happens to worship in the wrong way or misspells the name.  Surely a  
God of the universe has a bigger awareness than humans imagine.  Ask  
your self, what is the purpose of religion from God's point of view.   
Surely God does not need adulation, so a belief system must be for our  
benefit.  This benefit only occurs when we use this instruction to  
live a better life, no matter what the instruction is called.  So, why  
do we humans keep doing the opposite? Why do we keep insisting that  
our instruction is the only one that counts? Why would any rational  
person think they have all the answers about the nature of God?


Ed



On Nov 6, 2008, at 9:31 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:49 PM, thomas malloy wrote:


Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:19 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:



Pope urged to admit common ground

Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran which  
the scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam worship the  
same God, and require their respective followers to show each  
other particular friendship...




If it is the same Abraham it is the same God.


It takes a graduate school education in order to believe something  
that  stupid.


On the contrary, I don't even have a bachelor's degree.  I merely  
state the obvious, and not from some book or faith.  Christians,  
Jews, and Muslims worship the one God of Abraham.  Since it is the  
same Abraham it is logically necessarily that it is the same God.



We worship different gods,


Repeating yourself is not a demonstration of rational thought.

we have different holy books, which have produced different legal  
systems, which have resulted to two different civilizations.


A difference in holy books, legal systems and civilizations merely  
demonstrates the degree to which religion is a product of man and  
interpreted in differing ways by different people. These things have  
nothing to do with whether the God of Abraham, which Christians,  
Jews and Muslims worship, is necessarily the same God.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-06 Thread Horace Heffner



On Nov 6, 2008, at 8:11 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:


I find the logic of this discussion odd.


Perhaps because there is a lack of any logic at all.

If, as Christians, Muslims and Jews believe, there is but one God,  
then they are all worshiping that one God no matter what they call it.


The above statement is not a logical necessity.  For example, each  
religion might assume theirs is the one and only God while the others  
are deluded, worshiping false gods, an act no different from the  
worshiping of a specific rock or plant. It is only the shared history  
that makes a logical necessity of the shared God being one and the same.




If many Gods exist, as Hindus believe then we have a problem.


My point is that this can not the case for Christians, Muslims and  
Jews, who share a common history, a common Abraham, and thus a common  
God.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan



On Nov 6, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 6, 2008, at 8:11 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:


I find the logic of this discussion odd.


Perhaps because there is a lack of any logic at all.

If, as Christians, Muslims and Jews believe, there is but one God,  
then they are all worshiping that one God no matter what they call  
it.


The above statement is not a logical necessity.  For example, each  
religion might assume theirs is the one and only God while the  
others are deluded, worshiping false gods, an act no different from  
the worshiping of a specific rock or plant. It is only the shared  
history that makes a logical necessity of the shared God being one  
and the same.


Yes Horace, what you say is correct from the human point of view. But,  
look at this process from God's point of view, if this is possible.   
As God, I know I'm the only one. Humans call me by different names and  
do different ritual, but I know all the effort is directed toward me.  
So, why would I care what I'm called?  All the worship would have the  
same meaning to me. Why would any rational person think that a God as  
old and as immense as the one being proposed would be confused by use  
of different names, as you might expect  a human to react?  We believe  
that we were made in God's image when in fact God is made in our  
image. As usual, we have gotten the situation exactly backwards,





If many Gods exist, as Hindus believe then we have a problem.


My point is that this can not the case for Christians, Muslims and  
Jews, who share a common history, a common Abraham, and thus a  
common God.


Yes, and yours is another logical evaluation from the human view  
point. History demonstrates the God is the same one.


Also, I'm always amazed that rational people believe something that  
was based on knowledge that existed over 2000 years ago. We now know  
that the earth is not the center of the universe and that we are  
insignificant life forms in a complex and immense universe that is  
surely populated by life forms that are far more advanced.  Science  
works hard to update its knowledge about the physical world. Religion  
makes no such effort to learn more about the spiritual reality.  Yet,  
these two opposite approaches to knowledge exist in the same  
individual without conflict. How is this possible?


Ed



Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-06 Thread OrionWorks

HI Ed, Hi Horace,

IMO,

What many learned scholars and teachers seem to say on matters similar
to these recent discussions is that the ability to transform (or
update) a belief system is intimately linked to how deeply one has
personally identified their very existence to the care and feeding of
maintaining a particular belief system in it's current state. I
suspect we all understand this on some fundamental level even though
it would seem that some may be more consciously aware of its
ramifications.

This implies, as some go on to say, that the trick is learning to let
go of assigning, or identifying one's soul to any particular belief
system. Granted this might seem impossible to do.

It's not impossible.

It is ok to simply observe. Life goes on, sometimes pleasantly. And
when life and life's surroundings are not so pleasantly experienced,
one can still remain centered, ultimately through acceptance of the
situation.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan



Well said Steven.  That is the essence of the problem. That is why the  
ego is such a handicap for real understanding and why its destruction  
is at the core of Buddhist teaching.  I would also add fear to the  
reasons why religion is so powerful. Life is threatening and having  
God on your side gives great comfort.  If the after-life can be made  
to have a possible threat, following God is even more important.  The  
skill used by the leaders of religion in designing a belief system to  
achieve a particular behavior is truly impressive.


Regards,
Ed

On Nov 6, 2008, at 12:45 PM, OrionWorks wrote:


HI Ed, Hi Horace,

IMO,

What many learned scholars and teachers seem to say on matters similar
to these recent discussions is that the ability to transform (or
update) a belief system is intimately linked to how deeply one has
personally identified their very existence to the care and feeding of
maintaining a particular belief system in it's current state. I
suspect we all understand this on some fundamental level even though
it would seem that some may be more consciously aware of its
ramifications.

This implies, as some go on to say, that the trick is learning to let
go of assigning, or identifying one's soul to any particular belief
system. Granted this might seem impossible to do.

It's not impossible.

It is ok to simply observe. Life goes on, sometimes pleasantly. And
when life and life's surroundings are not so pleasantly experienced,
one can still remain centered, ultimately through acceptance of the
situation.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-06 Thread Horace Heffner



On Nov 6, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:

But, look at this process from God's point of view, if this is  
possible.  As God, I know I'm the only one. Humans call me by  
different names and do different ritual, but I know all the effort  
is directed toward me. So, why would I care what I'm called?


Because you would not want your family of man at war in your name. It  
is man's own distortion of the divine that causes religion based  
war.  It is man's wearing the cloak of God and injecting his own  
desires, especially desires for personal power, into religion and  
religious texts that is the source of strife between religions.   
Peace can only become a reality through some degree of shared values  
and rational discourse between members of the religions.  Christians,  
Jews and Muslims have an extensive base of shared values and history  
upon which to build a lasting peace, but this can not happen without  
identifying a sufficient foundation on which to start, and engaging  
in a long rational process to bring about the peace.  If even  
Christians, Jews and Muslims can not reconcile, then there is not  
much hope for peace for all mankind.



Also, I'm always amazed that rational people believe something that  
was based on knowledge that existed over 2000 years ago. We now  
know that the earth is not the center of the universe and that we  
are insignificant life forms in a complex and immense universe that  
is surely populated by life forms that are far more advanced.   
Science works hard to update its knowledge about the physical  
world. Religion makes no such effort to learn more about the  
spiritual reality.  Yet, these two opposite approaches to knowledge  
exist in the same individual without conflict. How is this possible?


Ed




Science is limited.  Science is founded on the universal  
applicability of physical laws and the repeatability of experiments.   
Religion is based on the premise that some things and events exist  
outside the scope of science, that there is a creative will that can  
work outside the realm of these laws.  These are not conflicting  
premises, provided the working of miracles, i.e. the violation of  
physical laws, are assumed not frequent enough to reliably and  
repeatedly be observed in experiments. Mysterious one of kind events  
do happen.  Belief in science and religion is not necessarily  
logically inconsistent.  It is far less inconsistent than a belief  
that we can through science and logic alone, or through religion and  
logic alone, understand everything.  Each is filled with the foibles  
of man.  When it comes down to killing each other in the name of  
religious principles, we owe it to each other to have a dialog to  
sort out how we possibly could be so logically inconsistent.  Logical  
dialog is the only path to peace between religions, and it is the  
realm in which religious leaders should be working as hard as  
possible to achieve new knowledge.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan



On Nov 6, 2008, at 1:06 PM, Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 6, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:

But, look at this process from God's point of view, if this is  
possible.  As God, I know I'm the only one. Humans call me by  
different names and do different ritual, but I know all the effort  
is directed toward me. So, why would I care what I'm called?


Because you would not want your family of man at war in your name.  
It is man's own distortion of the divine that causes religion based  
war.  It is man's wearing the cloak of God and injecting his own  
desires, especially desires for personal power, into religion and  
religious texts that is the source of strife between religions.   
Peace can only become a reality through some degree of shared values  
and rational discourse between members of the religions.   
Christians, Jews and Muslims have an extensive base of shared values  
and history upon which to build a lasting peace, but this can not  
happen without identifying a sufficient foundation on which to  
start, and engaging in a long rational process to bring about the  
peace.  If even Christians, Jews and Muslims can not reconcile, then  
there is not much hope for peace for all mankind.


I agree. That is the problem to which everyone who insists their  
religion is the only correct one makes a major contribution.  The  
question is, do they want to continue to be part of the problem or do  
they want to be part of the solution?




Also, I'm always amazed that rational people believe something that  
was based on knowledge that existed over 2000 years ago. We now  
know that the earth is not the center of the universe and that we  
are insignificant life forms in a complex and immense universe that  
is surely populated by life forms that are far more advanced.   
Science works hard to update its knowledge about the physical  
world. Religion makes no such effort to learn more about the  
spiritual reality.  Yet, these two opposite approaches to knowledge  
exist in the same individual without conflict. How is this possible?


Ed




Science is limited.  Science is founded on the universal  
applicability of physical laws and the repeatability of  
experiments.  Religion is based on the premise that some things and  
events exist outside the scope of science, that there is a creative  
will that can work outside the realm of these laws.  These are not  
conflicting premises, provided the working of miracles, i.e. the  
violation of physical laws, are assumed not frequent enough to  
reliably and repeatedly be observed in experiments. Mysterious one  
of kind events do happen.  Belief in science and religion is not  
necessarily logically inconsistent.  It is far less inconsistent  
than a belief that we can through science and logic alone, or  
through religion and logic alone, understand everything.  Each is  
filled with the foibles of man.  When it comes down to killing each  
other in the name of religious principles, we owe it to each other  
to have a dialog to sort out how we possibly could be so logically  
inconsistent.  Logical dialog is the only path to peace between  
religions, and it is the realm in which religious leaders should be  
working as hard as possible to achieve new knowledge.


The spirit reality can be studied using the same methods and rules  
applied to a study of the physical reality. This kind of study is  
being done. Unfortunately, the skeptic makes this work more difficult  
and unknown to many people.  Granted, this work is difficult and  
filled with false paths, but it is possible and is revealing much  
detail about how the system works.  I predict the same transition in  
thinking that resulted in the scientific approach being applied to a  
study of the physical world will also take place in religion, but with  
a 1000 year delay.


Ed



Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-06 Thread zeropoint

Interesting discussion!

Who was it that suggested that religions usually last about 1500 to 2000 years? 
By then, because the
religion is static but society evolves, the symbols lose their meaning and 
impact, and the old
religion belief system is cast off, and a new one comes in to replace it, and 
the symbols that
still had meaning reappear in the new religion... but with modifications.  Was 
it Joseph Campbell
who proposed this?

Might I also remind all that Christianity is 2000 years old! 
 ;-)

-Mark


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1771 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 7:58 
AM

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-05 Thread thomas malloy


Horace Heffner wrote:



On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:19 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:



Pope urged to admit common ground

Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran which the 
scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam worship the same 
God, and require their respective followers to show each other 
particular friendship...




If it is the same Abraham it is the same God.


It takes a graduate school education in order to believe something that  
stupid. We worship different gods, we have different holy books, which 
have produced different legal systems, which have resulted to two 
different civilizations.



--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread Jeff Fink

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 10:29 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Jeff wrote:

Bible prophesy, which has a habit of coming true,
indicates that at the end of the age there will be a
one world religion that will punish Christian believers,
who refuse to deny Jesus, with execution by beheading.
Read: Revelation 20: 4

I ask, Is there any major religion on the fast track to
world domination that hates the concept of Jesus as God,
and that punishes infidels with beheading?  It would
seem to benefit most of us to postpone the arrival of that
religious system as long as possible.

Hi Jeff,

Speaking of things to avoid, how about the rapture - 
promoting Darbyites that eagerly await the filling
of the Valley of Jezreel with blood to the height
of a horse's shoulders?  How many people must be
slaughtered by the Avenging Angel to supply the
required billions of gallons of blood?

Is this pro-life or pro-death?

Jack Smith

If this world should ever have an over population problem, God can deal with
it without any help from us.

Of course, if there is no God then the human race must handle the perceived
problem in their own exemplary manner.

Jeff

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread Edmund Storms

2006
20072008


estimate
estimate
Department of Defense   61,510  66,467  69,323  71,755  69,856
Other national defense  3,835   4,179   3,720   3,726   
3,079
Total national defense  65,345  70,646  73,043  75,481  72,935

Non-defense
General science, space, and technology:
NASA8,037   6,880   6,807   
8,438
9,445
NSF 3,439   3,638   3,707   
3,943
3,894
Atomic energy gen'l sci 2,701   2,809   2,966   3,013   
3,192
Subtotal14,177  13,327  13,480  15,394  16,531
Energy  1,387   1,272   1,156   1,241   
1,409

Transportation:
NASA551 834 722 
736 669
DOT and Other   571 472 588 590 
512
Subtotal1,122   1,306   1,310   
1,326
1,181

Health:
NIH 24,498  26,039  26,695  26,974  27,580
Other   1,726   1,541   1,570   
1,554
1,558
Subtotal26,224  27,580  28,265  28,528  29,138
Agriculture 1,694   1,758   1,779   
1,795
1,734
Nat'l resources/envir   1,612   1,878   1,529   1,633   
1,699
All other   1,818   2,079   2,233   
2,743
2,384
Totak NON-defense   48,034  49,200  49,752  52,660  54,076


I agree, the government is not efficient. I have worked on programs  
that spent billions and were successful, but where canceled for  
political reasons.  Must of the work was done by private contractors.  
Nevertheless, the programs never resulted in any use to the country.  
This is the main inefficiency, not that free enterprise can do better  
because companies are actually given the work, which is done well.


As for cutting waste, what would you cut that could compensate for the  
programs, such as medicare or the interest payments on the debt, that  
are growing out of control?


Ed




-Mark


-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 7:24 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


On Nov 3, 2008, at 1:13 AM, Mark Iverson wrote:


Ed,
No biggee. And I didn't mean to insult your patriotism; what did I  
say

that was untrue of religions and also made you feel that way?


You seem to blame a religion for the actions of a few of its members.
All religions have members who distort the basic views of their  
religion to justify their actions.
It is very dangerous and, I suggest, anti-American to take this  
approach.



For the most part, I agree that sincere and informed people should be
able to discuss politics w/o questioning a person's patriotism...
However, there are many insincere people who use the sincere person's
conscience and sense of fairness to manipulate and/or suppress their
point of view.  Do I think this is happening on this forum?  No, but
it is used quite extensively these days in many venues and garb; it  
is

insidious.


Agreed



I keep my mouth shut most of the time, so when I do open it, its
usually based on facts, reason, and a reasonably well thought out
position. And I admit that when I disagree with someone, my sarcasm
tends to leak out... Hey, I'm human just like the rest of you
characters.

RE: the policies of the current Republican administration...
Why is it that you and some of the other Vorts seem to completely
IGNORE the fact that there is a bicameral Congress that also is
responsible for what happens in this country???


These facts are ignored because  Congress until recently was  
control by Republicans who shared the
administration's view point. I admit that many Democrats also are  
equally to blame. Nevertheless,
the policy starts at the top.  The Bush policy was to let Congress  
and the free-enterprise system
have freedom to do what ever they wanted.  In addition, his policy  
was to send as much manufacturing
overseas as possible and to reward such businesses with tax  
advantages. He also reduced taxes on the
rich, who pay fewer taxes than expected anyway because of the many  
loopholes.  His policy was
simpleminded and extremely damaging to the country. Yes, Congress  
went along as anyone would expect

them to do, which has gained them the unpopular rating.
However, in any organization, a competent adult must be in charge,  
which was not the case for 8

years.


Not to mention the
FACT that this very same DEMOCRATICALLY controlled

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread OrionWorks

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for passing on the Camelot Bob Dean videos. I am enjoying
watching them.

...

 He's seeing the same world that I am, viewed through the
 lenses of a New Age Spirituality.

New Age, Schmuu Nage! Whatever! IMO, NewAgers' can't even agree
amongst themselves what criteria makes it New Agey! ;-)

 Thomas, it seems to me that you're pretty sure you know
 what's going in the heavenly firmaments above our terrestrial
 skies. That always

 I've made the decision to view the world from a
 Fundamentalist Christian perspective. I twist all facts
 to fit with that paradigm. What doesn't fit, I ignore.

Why, Thomas, you continue to surprise me! You clearly indicate the
fact you are well aware of intellectual footwork you're engaged in, as
most of us are from time to time. It is quite possible that some day
in the near future you may eventually tire dancing its incessantly
repetitive tune, one that all too many individuals have mistaken as a
way to remain safe and comforted. Alas, I sympathize. Feeling like one
belongs to a supportive community is an important component, one that
should not be taken lightly. Under the circumstances, all I can offer
up is that there is no reason why g*d would not continue to exist for
you should you eventually chose to make such a monumental decision to
consider skipping to other tunes. It's possible you are closer to the
cusp than you may be willing to consciously admit, but that's just
speculation on my part. I could be wrong. Take it for what it's worth.

 If I were an extraterrestrial and I was interested in
 visiting Earth for the purpose of cultural exchanges and
 other what-nots it would

 You're making the assumption that the Space Brothers are
 good and decent entities. 10 days ago our assistant Rabbi
 did the Parashas (Torah Study) portion of the service on
 Genesis 6. There were daughters who were born to the men,
 and the Son's of G-d took the ones they wanted for wives.
 The resulting children were the Nephilim. The book of
 Enoch describes them as depraved cannibals.

I have decided to make no assumptions about who or what might exist in
the heavens above. I would recommend that you might want to consider
taking the same approach. After all, how would you like to be
pre-judged by new neighbors before one actually begins knocking on
their doors.

...

 If an S B reveals himself to me, I'd ask him if R Yeshua
 (Jesus) came in the flesh. The ones who don't acknowledge
 that are from the dark side.

I would offer the suggestion that this is a very old archetype, one
that has been passed down from generation to generation, an archetype
that had been designed as a means to provide comfort to those who fear
certain concepts. It has been told and re-told in many forms and
guises - sometimes, unfortunately, as a way to keep the congregation
in check.

One of the more amusing variations of this fable has been retold in
recent times by the director Roman Polanski, who saw through the
archetype's facade, in his famous movie Fearless Vampire Killers.

See:
http://grunes.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/the-fearless-vampire-killers-roman-polanski-1966/

http://tinyurl.com/6xxru4

See seventh paragraph down:

 All this is by way of providing some context for the most
 celebrated joke in Polanski's film. A vampire, the former
 innkeeper, approaches a maiden, one of his daughters, in
 order to bite her neck as she lies fetchingly in bed.
 Seeing him, she brandishes a crucifix—what she has been
 taught (by her Catholic mother) good Christian girls do
 in order to ward off intruding vampires. The vampire
 looks at her and shakes its head, declaring aloud,
 Oy, have you got the wrong vampire! The crucifix hasn't
 the capacity to work on a Jewish vampire.

In other words it might be a good idea to consider the possibility
that they (whoever they are) won't even be able to comprehend what
you're trying to imply particularly if they can't even comprehend your
language let alone your customs and rituals. (Why is this creature
waving a curiously shaped stick at me???) It also might be a good idea
to consider the possibility that Star Trek's Universal Translator has
not yet been perfected to work with Earthlings.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread thomas malloy


Taylor J. Smith wrote:


Jeff wrote:

Bible prophesy, which has a habit of coming true, indicates that at the end of 
the age there will be a one world religion that will punish Christian 
believers, who refuse to deny Jesus, with execution by beheading.

I ask, Is there any major religion on the fast track to world domination that hates the concept of Jesus as God, and that punishes infidels with beheading?  

Yes, followers of both Islam and Hindu are both killing their Christian 
neighbors.



Hi Jeff,

Speaking of things to avoid, how about the rapture -promoting Darbyites that 
eagerly await the filling of the Valley of Jezreel with blood to the height

Is this pro-life or pro-death?
 

There will be an entity stirring people up, urging them to march to the 
Valley of Jezreel, his name is Lucifer.



--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread Edmund Storms



On Nov 4, 2008, at 9:31 AM, thomas malloy wrote:


Taylor J. Smith wrote:


Jeff wrote:

Bible prophesy, which has a habit of coming true, indicates that at  
the end of the age there will be a one world religion that will  
punish Christian believers, who refuse to deny Jesus, with  
execution by beheading.


I ask, Is there any major religion on the fast track to world  
domination that hates the concept of Jesus as God, and that  
punishes infidels with beheading?
Yes, followers of both Islam and Hindu are both killing their  
Christian neighbors.


Yes, and they are killing each other as well. I don't see why  
Christians should take this action personally.


Ed




Hi Jeff,

Speaking of things to avoid, how about the rapture -promoting  
Darbyites that eagerly await the filling of the Valley of Jezreel  
with blood to the height


Is this pro-life or pro-death?

There will be an entity stirring people up, urging them to march to  
the Valley of Jezreel, his name is Lucifer.



--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html 
 ---

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

For real!? Does he get one group of people to stand in one long line to vote
and another to fast track in a much shorter line?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFfXV3VHyz4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jn8K8EA7-Q


-Original Message-
From: thomas malloy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 04 November 2008 16:31
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


There will be an entity stirring people up, urging them to march to the 
Valley of Jezreel, his name is Lucifer.


--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread Horace Heffner



On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:19 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:



Pope urged to admit common ground

By Robert Pigott
Religious Affairs Correspondent

When 138 senior Muslim scholars and clergy tried to establish the
common ground between Islam and Christianity last year, they said the
very peace of the world hung on the outcome.

On Tuesday, a high-ranking delegation is beginning a rare visit to
Rome in an effort to persuade the Pope to endorse what they say are
the shared origins and values of the world's two biggest religions.

Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran which the
scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam worship the same God,
and require their respective followers to show each other particular
friendship...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7706977.stm




If it is the same Abraham it is the same God.

Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Mark I agree with you. It is galling to hear Barrack Obama talk about
corruption, lobbyists and regulation when *he has* taken money from the
federal housing corporations.

No doubt they have the disgrace of an impeachment hanging over him to reign
in his powers.

However what I take objection to is maybe the lucky complacent type of black
man who by, maybe luck or environment looks down on other blacks as lazy
welfare bums. I've come to the conclusion that they are deeply self-loathing
about slavery (why didn't we fight back? The Jews suffer this too) and their
perceived lack of contribution to society. Or that they excel in sports and
music marks them as physical and somehow more primitive than the other
homo-sapiens on the planet.

I often used to row with my father about his ambivalent, ambiguous,
contradictory almost admiring way of dealing with racists. He seemed to be
forever holding out the olive branch as if to say 'we can change them, we
can improve to their standards'. I've come to the confidence of maturity now
where I don't have to prove myself to anybody or can deal with the
embarrassed looks when I meet the person I've been speaking to down the
phone for years (and hears a quite plumy English accent) and sees someone
who is 'black' (coffee actually).

Colin Powell is a hell of an example. You couldn't get more physical and in
your face than army life. He's rose through the ranks and has implemented
change: all (*all*) can serve their country.

Republican real-politik dissuaded him from the nomination back in 1999 and
he said his wife couldn't take the strain as 1st lady. Well she did OK as
the wife of the Chief of Staff. With respect it seems an excuse and someone
told him to stand down. What's more they made him the fall guy for weapons
of mass destruction

The republicans made a few token gestures with Condi who is a real brain box
and I'd bet we'd like to be a fly on the wall to hear the rows she's had.
However it is, really, only the democrats who are seizing the day and
entering into the 21st century with a massive statement of supporting the
most able guy, regardless of race.

I think Thomas Sewell and Walter Williams are just poster boys for the
right. It's ok to speak about race we've got our frontmen. The more I see
it they complain too much, are self-loathing and are being used by
unreconstructed right-wingers who hide behind a philosophy that purports to
be fair and meritocratic. 

Their vision is one of unfettered dog eat dog. Their talk of meritocracy is
false and all the power will go to the well connected Ivy League boys and
people who bought their children a decent education, gave Daddy little boy a
hand up in the work place. It's all self perpetuating.

Digressing slightly, their passion for being 'objective' seems to have blue
(or ultra-violet) tinted glasses. When faced with irrefutable scientific
evidence about any issue opposed to *their* notions of personal liberty the
siren call goes up big government, liberal fascism and they find
themselves back peddling. (I like the one with Ayn Rand's novels being laced
with cigarette smoking characters whilst she rails on about Jazz clubs,
people taking drugs and the 60s counter-culture. So the legend goes, when
told by her doctor to stop smoking for scientific reasons she just stopped
by sheer force of will and hard work. Yeah right, I believe you.)

So despite the lies, the threat of impeachment and the dodgy economics, I
find Obama the best man. I get the same feeling about the Tories in the UK,
despite David Cameron who seems a very nice man (Eton-Oxford grandee); it's
still full of bigots. Several generations have to die out probably before it
can redeem itself. Then when the playing field is level we can discuss the
free market.

-Original Message-
From: Mark Iverson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 04 November 2008 07:24
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


For the most part I agree that most modern religions have decent goals and
try to teach people how
to behave in a society, and that it's the actions of a few zealous members
that give it a bad name,
but I was not thinking of that when I wrote what I did... But you seem to
think that its never the
religion.  If you want to qualify that with the term, mainstream
religions, then I would agree.
However, there have been belief systems that I would consider dangerous.  In
addition, there are
instances where the leaders of a religion are culpable in the actions that
are contrary to what the
institution preaches.  A perfect example is how the Vatican had at first
refused to acknowledge the
problem of pedophiles in the ranks, and it was only due to considerable
pressure from hi-profile
cases that it finally admitted, barely, to a problem.  This does nothing but
destroy the people's
faith in that institution...  I've also heard that more people have died in
wars fought over
religious disputes as opposed to territorial ones

RE: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread Jeff Fink


That means you are suppose to bless those muslims who hate you. 
Harry


Yes.  

Before, during, and after 9-11 America had troops in Kosovo protecting
Muslims from Serbian attack.  My son was one of those troops.

Jeff

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread thomas malloy


OrionWorks wrote:


Hi Thomas,

Thanks for passing on the Camelot Bob Dean videos. I am enjoying
watching them.

 


He's seeing the same world that I am, viewed through the
lenses of a New Age Spirituality.
   



New Age, Schmuu Nage! Whatever! IMO, NewAgers' can't even agree
amongst themselves what criteria makes it New Agey! ;-)
 

I'd like to introduce you to a good lawyer (one that keeps you out of 
court), Constance Cumbey, http://cumbey.blogspot.com/ . We disagree with 
your New Age, Schmuu Nage. I highly recommend her books, One of which 
is The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, which details New Age.


If the source material is more to your liking, I suggest Alice Bailey's 
books. Well, Alice's hand wrote them, they were channeled, these books. 
The Oligarchy, and their dupes, the Useful Idiots, have followed the 
plans which are laid out in them.


 


Thomas, it seems to me that you're pretty sure you know
what's going in the heavenly firmaments above our terrestrial
skies. That always
 

Well it dove tails with the rest of my world view, so I plead guilty as 
charged.



I've made the decision to view the world from a
Fundamentalist Christian perspective. I twist all facts
to fit with that paradigm. What doesn't fit, I ignore.
   



Why, Thomas, you continue to surprise me! You clearly indicate the
fact you are well aware of intellectual footwork you're engaged in, as. I could 
be wrong. Take it for what it's worth.
 

We Fundamentalists have a world view which, IMHO, fits together very 
well, thank you very much. Not only that, I've got a solid gold 
retirement plan waiting for me. And we shall dance on the streets which 
are golden, the spotless bride and the great Son of Man.




I have decided to make no assumptions about who or what might exist in
the heavens above. I would recommend that you might want to consider

 

Why should I do that? The World is going to hell in a hand basket and 
the S B's and their associates in the Oligarchy are an integral part of 
this. Most importantly, they're following a plan. If you question the 
veracity of that statement, I suggest that you follow some of the links 
on Constance's blog.



...

 


If an S B reveals himself to me, I'd ask him if R Yeshua
(Jesus) came in the flesh. The ones who don't acknowledge
that are from the dark side.
   



I would offer the suggestion that this is a very old archetype, one
that has been passed down from generation to generation, an archetype

 


Yeah, it goes back to Genesis Chapter 3



In other words it might be a good idea to consider the possibility
that they (whoever they are) 


Well, Steven, you're doing that.



--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_(The_Original_Miniseries)


-Original Message-
From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 04 November 2008 17:06
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

For real!? Does he get one group of people to stand in one long line to vote
and another to fast track in a much shorter line?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFfXV3VHyz4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jn8K8EA7-Q


-Original Message-
From: thomas malloy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 04 November 2008 16:31
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


There will be an entity stirring people up, urging them to march to the 
Valley of Jezreel, his name is Lucifer.


--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

RE: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Just taking a shot of their front page today:
http://www.capmag.com/index.asp?page=2

This is the Objectivists (extreme rightwing) rag mag.

The Black reporter kicks in the Black guys they don't like

The Jewish reporter kick in the Jewish guys they don't like

You see it's alright then. 

-Original Message-
From: Jeff Fink [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 04 November 2008 11:30
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


That means you are suppose to bless those muslims who hate you. 
Harry


Yes.  

Before, during, and after 9-11 America had troops in Kosovo protecting
Muslims from Serbian attack.  My son was one of those troops.

Jeff

Re: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread Harry Veeder


Pope urged to admit common ground 

By Robert Pigott 
Religious Affairs Correspondent 

When 138 senior Muslim scholars and clergy tried to establish the 
common ground between Islam and Christianity last year, they said the 
very peace of the world hung on the outcome. 

On Tuesday, a high-ranking delegation is beginning a rare visit to 
Rome in an effort to persuade the Pope to endorse what they say are 
the shared origins and values of the world's two biggest religions. 

Their letter, A Common Word, cited passages from the Koran which the 
scholars said showed that Christianity and Islam worship the same God, 
and require their respective followers to show each other particular 
friendship...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7706977.stm

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-04 Thread OrionWorks

Thomas,

It has been my experience that the emotion, fear, is a very seductive
one. Fear constantly whispers in one's ear: PAY ATTENTION TO ME! ...
OR ELSE. Once it has got your attention, don't worry, it will supply
one with an infinite number of rationalizations to justify why it
should remain in the command seat.

OTOH, as the late Joseph Campbell was noted to have said: Follow your bliss.

Ok, so there's FEAR on one side... and then there's BLISS on the
other side. Admittedly, it's kina like trying to mix oil and water.
The two ingredients don't seem to emulsify very well.

You are free to follow your fears to their ultimate destinations, just
as I am free to follow my bliss to their ultimate destinations.

I wish you a safe journey in your endeavors.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

RE: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

The whole cynicism of the right, the talk about Barney Franks, Senator Chris
Dodds, Clinton, the Communities Reinvestment Act, even far back as Kennedy
and FDR is just a smoke screen...

The idea that it is false love and just cynical left-wingers buying votes is
laughable.

When you have a country taken by force by one race of people, who then
systematically ethnically cleanse it of its original inhabitants, ship in a
whole group of people to use like cattle, when they find that the original
inhabitants died out from the strains of disease they brought to this new
'discovered' land, systematically segregate and disadvantage those who are
not its race and then have the gall to say that these people are lazy and a
burden when the system just isn't inclusive or nurturing of their talents,
it is a small measure when some wealth gets redistributed to let them have a
piece of the pie and own their own properties.

The collapse seems to have been deliberately engineered by the people (the
speculators, those in the market) who didn't want it to work, didn't want a
more fair society and wanted to keep the old order. They are doing well from
all the welfare we the tax payer now pay them.

Deep down it is driven by the old Anglo Saxon desire for dominion but the
world is a different place, the 'wogs' have knowledge now, China, India,
Brazil the power of the Muslim nations. The European dominion is but a blip
in recent history and you find the world is going back to equilibrium. All
races are equal, all have something to offer.

Putting in a man from the ethnic minorities sends out a powerful message
from the US: please forgive us before we all go mad.
 
-Original Message-
From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 04 November 2008 11:43
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Just taking a shot of their front page today:
http://www.capmag.com/index.asp?page=2

This is the Objectivists (extreme rightwing) rag mag.

The Black reporter kicks in the Black guys they don't like

The Jewish reporter kick in the Jewish guys they don't like

You see it's alright then. 

-Original Message-
From: Jeff Fink [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 04 November 2008 11:30
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


That means you are suppose to bless those muslims who hate you. 
Harry


Yes.  

Before, during, and after 9-11 America had troops in Kosovo protecting
Muslims from Serbian attack.  My son was one of those troops.

Jeff

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Mark Iverson

Ed,
No biggee. And I didn't mean to insult your patriotism; what did I say that was 
untrue of religions
and also made you feel that way?  

For the most part, I agree that sincere and informed people should be able to 
discuss politics w/o
questioning a person's patriotism... However, there are many insincere people 
who use the sincere
person's conscience and sense of fairness to manipulate and/or suppress their 
point of view.  Do I
think this is happening on this forum?  No, but it is used quite extensively 
these days in many
venues and garb; it is insidious.

I keep my mouth shut most of the time, so when I do open it, its usually based 
on facts, reason, and
a reasonably well thought out position. And I admit that when I disagree with 
someone, my sarcasm
tends to leak out... Hey, I'm human just like the rest of you characters.

RE: the policies of the current Republican administration...
Why is it that you and some of the other Vorts seem to completely IGNORE the 
fact that there is a
bicameral Congress that also is responsible for what happens in this country??? 
 Not to mention the
FACT that this very same DEMOCRATICALLY controlled House  Senate have an 
approval rating that is
MUCH lower than the administrations???  The fact that I haven't seen 
these two FACTS even
get mentioned in all the political rants makes me wonder just how 'objective' 
you guys are when it
comes to politics, thus, I see the political postings as just noise, and thus 
my rather blunt and
sarcastic methods to improve the SNR.  If you don't maintain the same level of 
openess and desire to
consider ALL the facts when talking politics, then this isn't helping to 
resolve or solve or
enlighten anyone.

As you rightly point out, this doesn't seem to happen when the topic is 
science/techy.  If you hope
to have the political discussions help, then again, put them in a separate 
group dedicated to
informed political discourse in the hopes that others who are interested in 
politics will see it and
learn/contribute.  The political discussions on this list, some of which are 
engaging and thought
provoking, will inevitably stay right here... And anyone interested in a good 
political discussion
isn't likely to come to a fringe-science forum!

Unless this discussion is done without excessive emotion and by using the 
facts...
Wholeheartedly agree.  But as I pointed out above, there are some very simple 
and VERY obvious FACTS
that do not get mentioned here; at least not prior to my doing so.  Is this 
forum composed of only a
socialistic/liberal viewpoint?  If so, then political discussions are nothing 
more than preaching to
the choir, and serving no 'positive' purpose but to make you all feel some 
sense of 'resonance'. :-)

RE: your comment about how politics will affect our lives as well as the 
ability to do science...
Nearly all basic research is done by government agencies and academia; rarely 
does the business
sector do applied, let alone basic research.  Congress holds or strongly 
influences the purse
strings for DOE, NSF, NASA, NOAA, DOD, DARPA, and any of the other govt 
agencies that spend money on
science. If reason and objectivity were at work here, then you should be 
discussing how to reform
(the currently democratic) Congress, not the president, and it should take aim 
at both parties.  As
far as academia is concerned, it is a bastion of liberal thinking, so if you're 
worried about how
science is going to get done, I suggest you start addressing those that really 
control it, and stop
blaming the president.

Can't wait for the electron to be over and we get back to science...

No hard feelings, I hope!
-Mark


-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:55 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

OK Mark, I apologize for using the phase as usual. Most of your posts are 
logical. However, in
this case you not only made a statement that I know to be untrue about 
religions, but also insulted
my patriotism.  You have no understanding of my political views except I, like 
an increasing number
of people, and apparently you as well, have discovered that the policies of the 
current Republican
administration are a disaster.  Sincere and informed people can and should 
discuss how the mess can
be best cleaned up without questioning a person's patriotism.  Unless this 
discussion is done
without excessive emotion and by using the facts, we are not going to make any 
progress.

As for the discussion of scientific vs political subjects, the political is 
important now because it
will affect all of our lives including our ability to do science.  
Unfortunately, on this list, the
political subjects seem to generate personal attacks while the science does 
not.  I'm sure once the
electron is over, we will go back to the personally neutral subject of science.

Ed


On Nov 2, 2008, at 7:43

Re: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

From: Jeff Fink

 If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have
 Jews been living in their cities for over a
 millennium?

 Because most Muslims are not living their religion
 by the book!  Only what we refer to as the
 extremists behave that way.  Most Muslims show much
 more kindness than that.

 Jeff

This recent comment is so incredibly revealing, and yet I fear so much
of it has been utterly lost, thrown to the floor as discarded waste in
lieu of recent passionate arguments.

I suspect many atheists live for the day when they see this argument
articulated, as it confirms one of their most cherished beliefs, one
that seems to confirm a suspicion that the continued propagation of
religion itself is one of the major causes of so much suffering in our
world.

Well, I must admit they DO seem to have a point, those dang atheists!
I have even found at times that I wished I was an atheist. But alas, I
guess such a noble destiny is not in the cards for me.

And what's the point that has been discarded, thrown to the floor like
scraps of rotting meat and gristle?

Which Muslims are we talking about? ...the Muslims living by the
book or the ones -not- living by the book? While we're at it, which
Christians are we talking about as well? ...the Christians living
by the book or the ones -not- living by the book? or Jews, or Jews
for Jesus, or Lutherans, Catholics, Confucians, ... even atheists.

It always seems to come down to: My book is better than YOUR book,
fill in your favorite title and prose. In every single case that I've
witnessed, it's individual PEOPLE, their personal interpretations -of
the book- making the decisions concerning what is ultimate truth
that have caused so much pain and suffering in this world. Don't blame
g*d. While we're at it, don't blame thy enemy's g*d either. Barking up
the wrong trees of knowledge. Try looking a little closer to Home for
truths.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Edmund Storms

 tax was created, i.e. take from one group  
and give to another. The only issue is which group pays and which  
group benefits and by how much. This balance has always been changed  
as the need changed.  Bush and McCain favor the wealthy (trickle- 
down), Obama wants to now favor the middle class (trickle-up).  This  
policy would seem to have benefit to the country now that the Bush  
policy has been shown not to work very well.



RE: your comment about how politics will affect our lives as well as  
the ability to do science...
Nearly all basic research is done by government agencies and  
academia; rarely does the business
sector do applied, let alone basic research.  Congress holds or  
strongly influences the purse
strings for DOE, NSF, NASA, NOAA, DOD, DARPA, and any of the other  
govt agencies that spend money on
science. If reason and objectivity were at work here, then you  
should be discussing how to reform
(the currently democratic) Congress, not the president, and it  
should take aim at both parties.  As
far as academia is concerned, it is a bastion of liberal thinking,  
so if you're worried about how
science is going to get done, I suggest you start addressing those  
that really control it, and stop

blaming the president.


Thanks to the failed policy, no money is available for new research  
and the budget for science is frozen.  In addition, the Bush  
administration has been anti-science from the beginning.  In addition,  
the appointed heads of many agencies have been political hacks who  
have not advanced science. This is not the fault of Congress.  I  
detect a lack of understanding of how the government actually works.  
As for liberal thinking academics, I don't know what this means.  Do  
you?



Can't wait for the electron to be over and we get back to science...


Agreed



No hard feelings, I hope!


No hard feelings as long as we can communicate without personal attack.

Ed


-Mark


-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:55 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

OK Mark, I apologize for using the phase as usual. Most of your  
posts are logical. However, in
this case you not only made a statement that I know to be untrue  
about religions, but also insulted
my patriotism.  You have no understanding of my political views  
except I, like an increasing number
of people, and apparently you as well, have discovered that the  
policies of the current Republican
administration are a disaster.  Sincere and informed people can and  
should discuss how the mess can
be best cleaned up without questioning a person's patriotism.   
Unless this discussion is done
without excessive emotion and by using the facts, we are not going  
to make any progress.


As for the discussion of scientific vs political subjects, the  
political is important now because it
will affect all of our lives including our ability to do science.   
Unfortunately, on this list, the
political subjects seem to generate personal attacks while the  
science does not.  I'm sure once the
electron is over, we will go back to the personally neutral subject  
of science.


Ed


On Nov 2, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Mark Iverson wrote:


Ed wrote:
As usual, your emotions get the better of logic

Tell me how logic supports your conclusion of As usual when
referring to my post?  To me, I'd have to have read at least 4 to 6
postings on a topic in order to feel like I would be justified in
using that phrase.  Obviously, you think one or two (very small
postings) are adequate.  From what I've been reading of your posts
(MANY more than 4 or 6 I might add) and others, there is a whole lot
more emotion in them than in mine… The level of contempt and
condescension in your postings toward the conservative viewpoint is
very strong and if you can't see that, then perhaps you should copy
some of your posts, delete your name from them and ask some people at
the local store to rate the emotion in them on a scale of 1 to 10.
Not whether they agree with them or not, just the emotional 'tone'…
might be enlightening.

In fact, there is very little emotion here.  What prompted my post  
was

that the s/n ratio on this list is pretty much in the toilet right
now, again.  Why don't you create a new list for political  
discussions

and keep this list for what it was meant.  That was my point… however
poorly stated.
Sorry about that…  Or, take a vote, and if the majority of Vorts  
don't

mind the engaging political rants, then I'll not try to keep that
stuff out of here.

To answer your assumptions and comments…

I work in a company with offices all over the world, and with all
kinds of people, from diverse backgrounds and religions, and enjoy  
our

conversations and admire and respect their expertise.  I work closely
with at least 2 (former) Iranian citizens, and asked why they decided
to come here and become U.S

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread thomas malloy


OrionWorks wrote:


From: Jeff Fink

 


If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have Jews been living in their cities 
for over a millennium?

Because most Muslims are not living their religion by the book!  Only what we 
refer to as the extremists behave that way.  Most Muslims show much more 
kindness than that.
   


It always seems to come down to: My book is better than YOUR book,
fill in your favorite title and prose. In every single case that I've
witnessed, it's individual PEOPLE, their personal interpretations -of
the book- making the decisions concerning what is ultimate truth
 


How about this, one of them is god, and the rest aren't.


that have caused so much pain and suffering in this world. Don't blame
g*d. While we're at it, don't blame thy enemy's g*d either. Barking up
the wrong trees of knowledge. Try looking a little closer to Home for
truths.
 


The root cause of human evil  is sin (deviation from the Holy Torah).

BTW Steve, I happened upon this Utube video. I assume that you will 
agree with most of what Mr. Dean has to say. The bottom line is that: 
there's no evidence that they (Space Brothers), are from anywhere other 
than this solar system, that there is more than one species, or that 
they're other than a malevolent carnivorous race. You can make a good 
case that the Oligarchy is working with them. Bob mentions that 
Fundamentalist Christians agree with much of what he says, which is why 
I'm posting this link.


With that said, I sent this to Pat Bailey. An interesting series of 
three interviews. Bob Dean has a non Christian world view, which has to 
be considered, but I think that he is telling the truth as he sees it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI9fS8Y-fwwfeature=related




--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Remi Cornwall

Scan reading the posts and some random thoughts,

I find talk about black tribal leaders selling other blacks into slavery a
non-sequitur. That was wrong but the Europeans took part and made it a
massive industry of pure misery.

OR

The US espouses the free market and yet gives a welfare cheque to the whole
military-industrial complex in spite of world trade agreements.

Or what of the Bailout? You had the reigns for 8 years and look at the
mess.

Some try to blame the credit crunch on blacks and Hispanics yet it was those
slick boys in Wall Street who came up with the *property pyramid* and
laundered the cash here in Old Blighty, London. (once again the sidekick)

Some seem to thing that they are always bailing out blacks, but the wealth
of US and the UK came from black labour before mechanical power. You
wouldn't have done it unless (the whole mid Atlantic trade) it gave you an
advantage. 

Some go on about Black culture; well it isn't actually black culture but
REDNECK OVERSEER culture that the slaves inherited - all the broken homes,
wife beating, alcohol and drug abuse, the crime. You had to break their
culture and totally bastardise them. Black men 'ape' the overseer who used
to beat the dissent (and decent) out of anyone. You will find ample smart
Africans without this burden doing well academically. 40 acres and mule,
what happened? How about a proper health system and education. How about
getting the people who prey on black estates with drugs and alcohol.

Some fail to read history and don't see the snapshot of this moment and
forget the contribution to knowledge of Egyptians, Persians, Babylonians,
Muslims, Orientals.

Some go on about radicalised Muslims and think all Muslims are like this but
fail to see how obnoxious the Bible belt is with their blonde, blue eyed
Jesus.

Some go on about how Blacks never seem to develop but bear in mind that the
continent is 'cursed' with natural resources and the European powers have
done much to destabilise anywhere with resources in the name of mercantilism
not free-trade.

So I am sick of rightwing fears about a black president. Blacks fought and
died for your country, save lives, give jobs, invented, gave you jazz, rock
and roll.


But most of all, the biggest stealth, Manchurian candidate enemy of your
culture is not someone who pallied around with terrorists or whose middle
name is Hussein, it's the assh.les who ruined your economy, over stretched
your military and made you look small in the world, made the world a more
dangerous place.

A leader will realise you need some old fashioned but post Keynesianism
thought with New Deal style projects to avoid stagflation. Real old
fashioned infrastructure wealth, not shallow consumer goods caused by excess
cash dumped on the market but realignment of your economy to be sustainable,
fair, civilised (European style health care and education) and with a
military used in conjunction with other nations as the world's police force.

Only a clever leader can affect this synthesis of ideas and camps and dig
America out of that hole. It's a real FDR moment. It would be a great
combination of US and EU and their great heritage of English and Latin
traditions.

(I had really switched off to vortex seeing no people of real influence. I'm
better off moving in other circles. That's not to insult you all it just
doesn't seem to connect with anything or anyone important at the moment.
Once a few of you learn what science is and put up a decent unified front
that might change. TTFN)

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Remi Cornwall

I LIKE COLIN POWELL. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT.

BUSH MESSED HIM OVER BEING THE FALL GUY FOR WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRACTION.

You can tell a leader when they speak, they are articulate, mature and
magnanimous. 

For all the bad things done in its name, the US army IS a band of brothers
and sisters of all classes, creeds and races. It's telling that a black man
can rise to high office in the army but not so easily in other spheres of
life (industry and academia).

It gave people a leg up and when you've fought alongside people you'd never
normally associate with (and they save your neck) you never forget it.

Colin Powell has the calibre to be CEO of any multinational let alone
president.

That idiot Bush the command in chief, Cheney (puppet master), and the closet
old-world order screwed Powell and your nation in the pursuit of
reconstruction contracts, the oil homogeny and just base, venal, top level
greed.

Least we not forget in November at this time or remembrance.

-Original Message-
From: thomas malloy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 03 November 2008 11:19
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Harry Veeder wrote:

The same argument applies to Christains with respect to certain passages in
their bible.
  

From: Jeff Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]

If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have
Jews been living in their cities for over a millennium?

Because most Muslims are not living their religion by the book!  
Only what we refer to as the extremists behave that way.  Most Muslims show

much more kindness than that.
-
From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have
Jews been living in their cities for over a millennium?
  

Not if you look at the Bible as a hologram.



--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Hi Thomas,

I may get a chance to look at the youtube.com video you recommend
tonight. Incidentally, I have no idea what Mr. Dean's position is on
what I presume is the ET matter, whatever that is. Shoot! I don't
know what my OWN position is on the matter.

Regarding:

 If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have Jews been
 living in their cities for over a millennium?
 Because most Muslims are not living their religion by the book!
 Only what we refer to as the extremists behave that way.
 Most Muslims show much more kindness than that.

 It always seems to come down to: My book is better than YOUR book,
 fill in your favorite title and prose. In every single case that I've
 witnessed, it's individual PEOPLE, their personal interpretations -of
 the book- making the decisions concerning what is ultimate truth

 How about this, one of them is god, and the rest aren't.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I gather this implies that you believe
you're one of the lucky ones who found the correct g*d. All the rest
are cheap knock-off imitations. I imagine you must feel fortunate,
very fortunate, indeed.

Perhaps some day in the future we'll all finally meet in the Hall of
the Big Thanksgiving Banquet. We'll have a good laugh at our concocted
misfortunes and harebrained ideas. I'm sure I'll have a few
embarrassing stories to tell at my own expense as well.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Mike Carrell

One can quote religious texts for any agenda. There are passagees in the New 
Testament attributed to Jesus which are divisive as well. The question is 
who wrote them, and why? With militant Islam, you see it filtered through a 
honor-based desert culture. The largest Islamic culture is in Indonesia, 
which is not militant. All organized religions have bloody histories. Yet 
the Golden Rule is found everywhere, in all cultures.


Mike Carrell

- Original Message - 
From: Jeff Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 4:36 PM
Subject: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan



You are perhaps mixing the Old Testament with the New.

The Old Testament is primarily about the history of the Jewish people, and
it is quite bloody and brutal.  The New Testament is about the life and
teachings of Jesus Christ, and His teachings supersede the laws of the Old
Testament.

I suspect that nobody is looking anything up.  So, here are a few quotes 
to

make it easy: (New King James version)

Jesus:  You have heard it said, You shall love your neighbor and hate 
your
enemy. But, I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, 
do

good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and
persecute you, that you may be sons of your father in heaven... Matthew 
5:43



Jesus:  You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all 
your
soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment, 
and
the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as your self.  On 
these

two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These commands are not easy to do.  Down thru the ages there have been
people falsely calling themselves Christians who have never gotten 
anywhere

near these commandments, and they have given Christianity a bad name among
many.  But I can assure you that a radically saved born again Christian is 
a
really great person to have for a neighbor unless you fear being killed 
with

kindness.

You may wonder how good of a Christian I am?  Well, I am not as good as I
need to be, but I am trying.

Bible prophesy, which has a habit of coming true, indicates that at the 
end

of the age there will be a one world religion that will punish Christian
believers, who refuse to deny Jesus, with execution by beheading.
Read: Revelation 20: 4

I ask, Is there any major religion on the fast track to world domination
that hates the concept of Jesus as God, and that punishes infidels with
beheading?  It would seem to benefit most of us to postpone the arrival 
of

that religious system as long as possible.

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:09 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

The same argument applies to Christains with respect
to certain passages in their bible.


Harry


- Original Message -
From: Jeff Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008 10:20 pm
Subject: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have
Jews been living in their cities for over a millennium?

Because most Muslims are not living their religion by the book!
Only what
we refer to as the extremists behave that way.  Most Muslims show
much more
kindness than that.

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:47 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have
Jews been living in their cities for over a millennium?

Harry


- Original Message -
From: Jeff Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008 9:33 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

 Good Christians, living their faith by the book, love their
 enemies.  Good
 Muslims, living their faith by the book, kill their enemies which
 includeall non Muslims.  Don't take my word for it.  Look it up.

 The people on this list are technically brilliant, but in some other
 important areas, the ignorance is astounding.

 Jeff







This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. 
Department.

Re: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Jeff Fink Said:

...

 You may wonder how good of a Christian I am?  Well,
 I am not as good as I need to be, but I am trying.

I often wonder how good a human being I am to myself and to others as
well. I know I could use improvement, and I am trying.

 Bible prophesy, which has a habit of coming true, indicates
 that at the end of the age there will be a one world religion
 that will punish Christian believers, who refuse to deny Jesus,
 with execution by beheading. Read: Revelation 20: 4

 I ask, Is there any major religion on the fast track to
 world domination that hates the concept of Jesus as God, and
 that punishes infidels with beheading?  It would seem to
 benefit most of us to postpone the arrival of that religious
 system as long as possible.

 Jeff

Collectively speaking when too many people at any period of history
tend to take the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, or any religious book
literally we will indeed experience the end of the world. If such a
horrible prophesy were to manifest I suspect it wouldn't be because
g*d finally came back and kicked everybody's ass out of the pool for
peeing in it. The prophesy would come about because everyone will be
shooting at their neighbors across geopolitical and religious
boundaries, all in the name of their g*d, the one and only true g*d.

At times like this I sometimes wish I could be an atheist. But alas, I
don't suspect a godless world would be any more of a solution to the
world's woes. From what I can tell stupidity, ignorance, hatred, and
bigotry know no geopolitical and/or philosophical boundaries. If there
were no religion in the world I suspect all the idiots, bigots, and
the ignorant would find some other all-mighty philosophy to hang their
hang-ups on.

I continue to hope that the Golden Rule for which Mike Carrell
refreshingly brought back to our attention will eventually prevail. It
is one of the most universally prevalent and respected laws known on
our planet.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Remi Cornwall

Oh I see is that's what their up to now...

Oh they're going to say Obama is the anti-Christ. I remember this with Bill
Clinton and Gorbachev and anyone smart enough to stand up to them.

I've heard all kinds of bullshit, that the Annunarki are due in 2012 (some
planet they live on is meant to come back to the solar system), that the
London 2012 Olympic symbol secretly says Zion and that's why they were so
loathed to change it - the power of that lobby.

Ignorance and bigotry is a really powerful force. We must quell the urge to
crush bugs and regard outsiders as suspicious. Superstition and this basic
reflex seem to be some deed evolutionary mechanism and when you see it for
what it is... well nothing to fear but the fear itself.

-Original Message-
From: OrionWorks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 03 November 2008 22:46
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Jeff Fink Said:

...

 You may wonder how good of a Christian I am?  Well,
 I am not as good as I need to be, but I am trying.

I often wonder how good a human being I am to myself and to others as
well. I know I could use improvement, and I am trying.

 Bible prophesy, which has a habit of coming true, indicates
 that at the end of the age there will be a one world religion
 that will punish Christian believers, who refuse to deny Jesus,
 with execution by beheading. Read: Revelation 20: 4

 I ask, Is there any major religion on the fast track to
 world domination that hates the concept of Jesus as God, and
 that punishes infidels with beheading?  It would seem to
 benefit most of us to postpone the arrival of that religious
 system as long as possible.

 Jeff

Collectively speaking when too many people at any period of history
tend to take the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, or any religious book
literally we will indeed experience the end of the world. If such a
horrible prophesy were to manifest I suspect it wouldn't be because
g*d finally came back and kicked everybody's ass out of the pool for
peeing in it. The prophesy would come about because everyone will be
shooting at their neighbors across geopolitical and religious
boundaries, all in the name of their g*d, the one and only true g*d.

At times like this I sometimes wish I could be an atheist. But alas, I
don't suspect a godless world would be any more of a solution to the
world's woes. From what I can tell stupidity, ignorance, hatred, and
bigotry know no geopolitical and/or philosophical boundaries. If there
were no religion in the world I suspect all the idiots, bigots, and
the ignorant would find some other all-mighty philosophy to hang their
hang-ups on.

I continue to hope that the Golden Rule for which Mike Carrell
refreshingly brought back to our attention will eventually prevail. It
is one of the most universally prevalent and respected laws known on
our planet.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Edmund Storms

Just to throw another stick on the fire, have any of the very  
religious contributors to this discussion considered that a real  
reality exists outside of what we call the physical reality and their  
religion is simply an imperfect way to describe this reality?  The  
explanation based on religion is imperfect because the description is  
centuries behind what is known based on observation, analysis of  
history, and modern logic. This is like a person trying to study  
chemistry starting with a book written in the 14th century.  We all  
would find this approach idiotic, because as scientists, we are  
trained to look at reality with objectivity and to take nothing for  
granted. Yet, scientists will accept a belief  about the spirit world  
without question.  I have always found this conflict between how  
science and religion are treated to be very strange. A very large data  
base now describes the  situation in the spirit world and various  
messengers have been sent to provide more detail, but this evidence is  
ignored in preference to a belief based on no evidence at all, except  
what the promoters of the religion say is true.  How does a person who  
values logic and science explain this situation?


Ed


On Nov 3, 2008, at 3:46 PM, OrionWorks wrote:


Jeff Fink Said:

...


You may wonder how good of a Christian I am?  Well,
I am not as good as I need to be, but I am trying.


I often wonder how good a human being I am to myself and to others as
well. I know I could use improvement, and I am trying.


Bible prophesy, which has a habit of coming true, indicates
that at the end of the age there will be a one world religion
that will punish Christian believers, who refuse to deny Jesus,
with execution by beheading. Read: Revelation 20: 4

I ask, Is there any major religion on the fast track to
world domination that hates the concept of Jesus as God, and
that punishes infidels with beheading?  It would seem to
benefit most of us to postpone the arrival of that religious
system as long as possible.

Jeff


Collectively speaking when too many people at any period of history
tend to take the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, or any religious book
literally we will indeed experience the end of the world. If such a
horrible prophesy were to manifest I suspect it wouldn't be because
g*d finally came back and kicked everybody's ass out of the pool for
peeing in it. The prophesy would come about because everyone will be
shooting at their neighbors across geopolitical and religious
boundaries, all in the name of their g*d, the one and only true g*d.

At times like this I sometimes wish I could be an atheist. But alas, I
don't suspect a godless world would be any more of a solution to the
world's woes. From what I can tell stupidity, ignorance, hatred, and
bigotry know no geopolitical and/or philosophical boundaries. If there
were no religion in the world I suspect all the idiots, bigots, and
the ignorant would find some other all-mighty philosophy to hang their
hang-ups on.

I continue to hope that the Golden Rule for which Mike Carrell
refreshingly brought back to our attention will eventually prevail. It
is one of the most universally prevalent and respected laws known on
our planet.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Jeff Fink

-Original Message-
From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 5:36 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

With militant Islam, you see it filtered through a 
honor-based desert culture. The largest Islamic culture is in Indonesia, 
which is not militant. Mike Carrell

Indonesia is becoming a very dangerous place for Christians.  I have
missionary acquaintances who have done jail time there for talking about
Jesus.  I won't say if they are Americans or Indonesians since I don't want
to put any of them in further danger.

Jeff

Re: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Harry Veeder

- Original Message -
From: Jeff Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Monday, November 3, 2008 4:36 pm
Subject: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

 You are perhaps mixing the Old Testament with the New.

 The Old Testament is primarily about the history of the Jewish 
 people, and
 it is quite bloody and brutal.  The New Testament is about the life 
 andteachings of Jesus Christ, and His teachings supersede the laws 
 of the Old
 Testament.

 I suspect that nobody is looking anything up.  So, here are a few 
 quotes to
 make it easy: (New King James version)

 Jesus:  You have heard it said, You shall love your neighbor and 
 hate your
 enemy. But, I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse 
 you, do
 good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use 
 you and
 persecute you, that you may be sons of your father in heaven... 
 Matthew 5:43

That means you are suppose to bless those muslims who hate you. 

Harry

Re: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Mike Carrell

- Original Message - 
From: Jeff Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

snip

Indonesia is becoming a very dangerous place for Christians.  I have
missionary acquaintances who have done jail time there for talking about
Jesus.  I won't say if they are Americans or Indonesians since I don't 
want

to put any of them in further danger.

OK, Jeff, but there was a time in Catholic-dominated Europe when it was 
dangerous to be a Jew. In the '30s anti-semitism was preached from pulpits 
in Poland and the Vatican said prayers for the perfidious Jews. It took 
decades before Pope John Paul offered formal aplology. Islam was once the 
resivoir of learning during the Dark Ages in Europe, as was Celtic Ireland. 
And it was a fleet of ships from China that ignited the Renaissance in 
Europe in 1434. History is much more complex that what is taught in schools.

Mike Carrell

Jeff

This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. 
Department.

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Hello again, Thomas,

 BTW Steve, I happened upon this Utube video. I assume that you will
 agree with most of what Mr. Dean has to say. The bottom line is that:
 there's no evidence that they (Space Brothers), are from anywhere other
 than this solar system, that there is more than one species, or that
 they're other than a malevolent carnivorous race. You can make a good
 case that the Oligarchy is working with them. Bob mentions that
 Fundamentalist Christians agree with much of what he says, which is why
 I'm posting this link.

 With that said, I sent this to Pat Bailey. An interesting series of
 three interviews. Bob Dean has a non Christian world view, which has to
 be considered, but I think that he is telling the truth as he sees it.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI9fS8Y-fwwfeature=related


Oh, THAT Bob Dean. Yes, I've heard of him. Many times. (Must have been
a senior moment.)

Bob Dean obviously has an interesting story to tell. I do not feel it
appropriate of me to cast judgment pro or con or evaluate the veracity
of his claims particularly since I've never met him personally. I do
however agree with you on the point that Bob is likely ...telling the
truth as he sees it. ...and yes his views should be considered with
all the rest of the POVs.

Thomas, it seems to me that you're pretty sure you know what's going
in the heavenly firmaments above our terrestrial skies. That always
amazes me since I've been pondering this conundrum starting way back
when I was just fourteen, more than four decades ago, and I still
don't have a conclusive answer.

If I were an extraterrestrial and I was interested in visiting Earth
for the purpose of cultural exchanges and other what-nots it would
sadden me to know that it would be unadvisable for me to meet you in
person. For one thing, it would be difficult carrying on an equitable
conversation with someone who may be wondering if I was looking at him
as nothing more than a drumstick - dark meat.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread thomas malloy


OrionWorks wrote:


Hello again, Thomas,

 

   
Oh, THAT Bob Dean. Yes, I've heard of him. Many times. (Must have been

a senior moment.)

Bob Dean obviously has an interesting story to tell. I do not feel it
appropriate of me to cast judgment pro or con or evaluate the veracity

 

He's seeing the same world that I am, viewed through the lenses of a New 
Age Spirituality.



Thomas, it seems to me that you're pretty sure you know what's going
in the heavenly firmaments above our terrestrial skies. That always

 

I've made the decision to view the world from a Fundamentalist Christian 
perspective. I twist all facts to fit with that paradigm. What doesn't 
fit, I ignore.



If I were an extraterrestrial and I was interested in visiting Earth
for the purpose of cultural exchanges and other what-nots it would

 

You're making the assumption that the Space Brothers are good and decent 
entities. 10 days ago our assistant Rabbi did the Parashas (Torah Study) 
portion of the service on Genesis 6. There were daughters who were born 
to the men, and the Son's of G-d took the ones they wanted for wives. 
The resulting children were the Nephilim. The book of Enoch describes 
them as depraved cannibals.


I remember the first time I heard about them, it's odd the way their 
skeletons disappear from public view. This is another example of the 
Oligarchy promoting it's agenda.


While the flood put a damper on their activities, it's clear to me that 
they're still around. They have lost their physical prowess, but not 
their cunning. C to C AM has reports of women who say that they have 
been impregnated by them. You will notice that Dean describes them as 
becoming progressively more human.


If an S B reveals himself to me, I'd ask him if R Yeshua (Jesus) came in 
the flesh. The ones who don't acknowledge that are from the dark side.




--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-03 Thread Mark Iverson

 was 
created, i.e. take from
one group and give to another.  The only issue is which group pays and which 
group benefits and by
how much...

You open up a whole can of worms that I know a canful about... But perhaps some 
other time.  The
history of the income tax is a very interesting read...

Bush and McCain favor the wealthy (trickle- 
down), Obama wants to now favor the middle class (trickle-up).  This  
policy would seem to have benefit to the country now that the Bush  
policy has been shown not to work very well

The diff between us is that, even though giving lip service to enough blame oto 
go around, there is
absolutely no mention of specifics in any of your posts that I can remember... 
It's all Bush's
fault!  I reject that, as does Dr. Sowell; Congress has more influence on the 
domestic economy that
the prez ever will, and that's the way it should be.

RE: you comments on budget for science being frozen. 
From the govt's own statistics, the budget for science has had modest 
increases thruout Bush's admin
except for the yr-2008 estimate... How much should we be spending in science?  
Isn't $50 Billion
enough?  And I love science... I challenge you to change your mindset, and 
instead of a constant
increase, why not work on reducing the overhead and implementing other 
intelligent ways to run large
organizations!  Can you say, Spaceship One/Scaled Composites?  A very good 
example of the fact
that the private industry can do most anything MUCH MORE cost effectively than 
government...
 
200420052006
20072008


estimate
estimate
Department of Defense   61,510  66,467  69,323  71,755  69,856
Other national defense  3,835   4,179   3,720   3,726   
3,079
Total national defense  65,345  70,646  73,043  75,481  72,935

Non-defense
General science, space, and technology:
NASA8,037   6,880   6,807   
8,438
9,445
NSF 3,439   3,638   3,707   
3,943
3,894
Atomic energy gen'l sci 2,701   2,809   2,966   3,013   
3,192
Subtotal14,177  13,327  13,480  15,394  16,531
Energy  1,387   1,272   1,156   1,241   
1,409

Transportation:
NASA551 834 722 
736 669
DOT and Other   571 472 588 590 
512
Subtotal1,122   1,306   1,310   
1,326
1,181

Health:
NIH 24,498  26,039  26,695  26,974  27,580
Other   1,726   1,541   1,570   
1,554
1,558
Subtotal26,224  27,580  28,265  28,528  29,138
Agriculture 1,694   1,758   1,779   
1,795
1,734
Nat'l resources/envir   1,612   1,878   1,529   1,633   
1,699
All other   1,818   2,079   2,233   
2,743
2,384
Totak NON-defense   48,034  49,200  49,752  52,660  54,076


-Mark


-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 7:24 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


On Nov 3, 2008, at 1:13 AM, Mark Iverson wrote:

 Ed,
 No biggee. And I didn't mean to insult your patriotism; what did I say 
 that was untrue of religions and also made you feel that way?

You seem to blame a religion for the actions of a few of its members.   
All religions have members who distort the basic views of their religion to 
justify their actions.
It is very dangerous and, I suggest, anti-American to take this approach.


 For the most part, I agree that sincere and informed people should be 
 able to discuss politics w/o questioning a person's patriotism... 
 However, there are many insincere people who use the sincere person's 
 conscience and sense of fairness to manipulate and/or suppress their 
 point of view.  Do I think this is happening on this forum?  No, but 
 it is used quite extensively these days in many venues and garb; it is 
 insidious.

Agreed


 I keep my mouth shut most of the time, so when I do open it, its 
 usually based on facts, reason, and a reasonably well thought out 
 position. And I admit that when I disagree with someone, my sarcasm 
 tends to leak out... Hey, I'm human just like the rest of you 
 characters.

 RE: the policies of the current Republican administration...
 Why is it that you and some of the other Vorts seem to completely 
 IGNORE the fact that there is a bicameral Congress that also

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-02 Thread R C Macaulay

I noticed that Colin didn't dwell on the oldest running war in history that 
started way back in Canaan's day, next to 1800 BC with Ismael.. then to 
Edom.. to Herod ( Esau's kinfolk)  and a slight jump to Muhammed in AD600. 
Or as the song goes.. the beat goes on with Sonny and Cher.
Colin can skip around the issue just as NATO does in Bosnia.. but.. until 
this war ends..I have a difficult time reconciling watching some innocent 
woman jumping out of the world trade center on fire, with Colin playing 
Rodney King' song  can't we just all be friends and .paving the road to 
hell with fond intentions. These people have their religious mandate to kill 
us. You try separating the good muslims from the bad ones because I can't 
see the difference.


Richard




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXWqX_O4BKY

It moved me to tears.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan



On Nov 2, 2008, at 12:23 PM, OrionWorks wrote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXWqX_O4BKY

It moved me to tears.


Me too.  It was such a relief to hear someone at national level give  
an honest and rational evaluation of the present situation.  After  
hearing unending bullshit for the last several months from McCain  
supporters and various talking heads, finally an honest voice is  
heard. This was a real treat.


Ed



Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-02 Thread Jed Rothwell


R C Macaulay wrote:

These people have their religious mandate to kill us. You try 
separating the good muslims from the bad ones because I can't see 
the difference.


Not a problem! Not long ago, by historical standards, most Japanese 
people had it in for us, and were determined to kill Americans. It 
was more or less a religious thing -- Emperor worship, in their case. 
I knew a good many of them, although they are mostly dead by now. 
They fell into two groups, easily recognizable:


1. People who were formerly committed to killing Americans, but who 
no longer felt that way. This was the vast majority.


2. People who still have it in for us, and/or the Russians, Chinese, 
Koreans, and anyone else they went to war with in the 1930s and 40s. 
They are mostly tattooed gangsters (yakuza) who drive around in large 
trucks playing military music at high volume, to cause trouble and 
bother the neighborhood. You can't miss 'em. In 1990, one of them 
shot the mayor of Nagasaki, because he said the Emperor was not god 
and was partly responsible for the war.


I never have had any difficulty telling peaceful Japanese people from 
war-mongerers, and I am sure I would have no difficulty identifying 
Muslims who want to kill us.


Such people exist in every country, and every society, including our 
own. But the numbers are usually small. There are many in the Muslim 
societies at present because these societies are undergoing a crisis. 
There is a civil war going on in Saudi Arabia, and in Afghanistan. It 
is a fight between modernity (science, rationality and technology) 
and a fanatical version of religion. Those wars spilled over into the 
U.S. in the 9/11 attack. Fundamentally, they have little to do with 
us. We just happen to be in the line of fire, you might say.


There were many brutal fanatics in Japan in the 1930s because they 
were undergoing a similar crisis, and in the U.S. in the 1860s for 
the same reason. Such crises never last long. Either the society 
recovers and acts civilized again, or it goes too far and destroys 
itself. Pre-war Japanese society destroyed itself in 1941 at Pearl 
Harbor, and the Confederacy died at Gettysburg in 1863. Sooner or 
later, Saudi Arabia will either recover or destroy itself. It cannot 
go on in a war with modernity for decades. When it recovers, the 
threat to us will recede. That will happen a lot sooner if we stop 
using oil and bankrupt them.


I think the notion that we are in a second cold war that will last 
for decades is absurd, and without foundation.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

How do you tell the good Christians from the bad Christians, Richard?  
Surely you know that bad Christians exist.  I suggest you use the same  
method you would apply to Christians.


Ed


On Nov 2, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:


R C Macaulay wrote:

These people have their religious mandate to kill us. You try  
separating the good muslims from the bad ones because I can't see  
the difference.


Not a problem! Not long ago, by historical standards, most Japanese  
people had it in for us, and were determined to kill Americans. It  
was more or less a religious thing -- Emperor worship, in their  
case. I knew a good many of them, although they are mostly dead by  
now. They fell into two groups, easily recognizable:


1. People who were formerly committed to killing Americans, but who  
no longer felt that way. This was the vast majority.


2. People who still have it in for us, and/or the Russians, Chinese,  
Koreans, and anyone else they went to war with in the 1930s and 40s.  
They are mostly tattooed gangsters (yakuza) who drive around in  
large trucks playing military music at high volume, to cause trouble  
and bother the neighborhood. You can't miss 'em. In 1990, one of  
them shot the mayor of Nagasaki, because he said the Emperor was not  
god and was partly responsible for the war.


I never have had any difficulty telling peaceful Japanese people  
from war-mongerers, and I am sure I would have no difficulty  
identifying Muslims who want to kill us.


Such people exist in every country, and every society, including our  
own. But the numbers are usually small. There are many in the Muslim  
societies at present because these societies are undergoing a  
crisis. There is a civil war going on in Saudi Arabia, and in  
Afghanistan. It is a fight between modernity (science, rationality  
and technology) and a fanatical version of religion. Those wars  
spilled over into the U.S. in the 9/11 attack. Fundamentally, they  
have little to do with us. We just happen to be in the line of fire,  
you might say.


There were many brutal fanatics in Japan in the 1930s because they  
were undergoing a similar crisis, and in the U.S. in the 1860s for  
the same reason. Such crises never last long. Either the society  
recovers and acts civilized again, or it goes too far and destroys  
itself. Pre-war Japanese society destroyed itself in 1941 at Pearl  
Harbor, and the Confederacy died at Gettysburg in 1863. Sooner or  
later, Saudi Arabia will either recover or destroy itself. It cannot  
go on in a war with modernity for decades. When it recovers, the  
threat to us will recede. That will happen a lot sooner if we stop  
using oil and bankrupt them.


I think the notion that we are in a second cold war that will last  
for decades is absurd, and without foundation.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan



As usual, your emotions get the better of logic. First of all, not all  
Muslims are suicide bombers nor is this an action that is supported by  
the general region. Also, how do you separate this action from when we  
operate when we bomb from the air? Of course, you can say that we are  
trying to hit bad people, which we miss on occasion, but we are sorry  
when innocent people are killed. We killed thousands and destroyed a  
society in an attempt to kill a few people who might try to hurt us in  
the future.  But this is ok with you because we are acting in self  
defense, but the suicide bombers are not.  In fact, this is he only  
way they have to fight us and the better armed countries that take  
their goods and pride.


As for my acrimonious feelings about this country, you seem not to  
understand the difference in feeling acrimonious about the actions of  
the Bush administration and a love of country.  Apparently you approve  
of everything the administration has done. I hope you do not have a  
mortgage and have a good job that stays in this country.  I will wait  
to see how you feel in the future if past actions are not personal  
enough to get your acrimony.


Ed

On Nov 2, 2008, at 4:55 PM, Mark Iverson wrote:

Gee Ed, I don't know any christians, buddists, scientologists or any  
other belief systems that want
to wipe out other belief systems;  that would strap bombs on their  
children and handicapped, let

alone 'sane' adults, all in the name of their religion/god.

With all the acrimonious feelings you have about this country,  
sounds like you'd be much happier in

Iraq or Iran!  I'll buy your ticket...

-Mark


-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:38 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

How do you tell the good Christians from the bad Christians, Richard?
Surely you know that bad Christians exist.  I suggest you use the  
same method you would apply to

Christians.

Ed


On Nov 2, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:


R C Macaulay wrote:


These people have their religious mandate to kill us. You try
separating the good muslims from the bad ones because I can't see  
the

difference.


Not a problem! Not long ago, by historical standards, most Japanese
people had it in for us, and were determined to kill Americans. It  
was

more or less a religious thing -- Emperor worship, in their case. I
knew a good many of them, although they are mostly dead by now. They
fell into two groups, easily recognizable:

1. People who were formerly committed to killing Americans, but who  
no

longer felt that way. This was the vast majority.

2. People who still have it in for us, and/or the Russians, Chinese,
Koreans, and anyone else they went to war with in the 1930s and 40s.
They are mostly tattooed gangsters (yakuza) who drive around in large
trucks playing military music at high volume, to cause trouble and
bother the neighborhood. You can't miss 'em. In 1990, one of them  
shot
the mayor of Nagasaki, because he said the Emperor was not god and  
was

partly responsible for the war.

I never have had any difficulty telling peaceful Japanese people from
war-mongerers, and I am sure I would have no difficulty identifying
Muslims who want to kill us.

Such people exist in every country, and every society, including our
own. But the numbers are usually small. There are many in the Muslim
societies at present because these societies are undergoing a crisis.
There is a civil war going on in Saudi Arabia, and in Afghanistan. It
is a fight between modernity (science, rationality and technology)  
and
a fanatical version of religion. Those wars spilled over into the  
U.S.

in the 9/11 attack. Fundamentally, they have little to do with us. We
just happen to be in the line of fire, you might say.

There were many brutal fanatics in Japan in the 1930s because they
were undergoing a similar crisis, and in the U.S. in the 1860s for  
the

same reason. Such crises never last long. Either the society recovers
and acts civilized again, or it goes too far and destroys itself.
Pre-war Japanese society destroyed itself in 1941 at Pearl Harbor,  
and

the Confederacy died at Gettysburg in 1863. Sooner or later, Saudi
Arabia will either recover or destroy itself. It cannot go on in a  
war

with modernity for decades. When it recovers, the threat to us will
recede. That will happen a lot sooner if we stop using oil and
bankrupt them.

I think the notion that we are in a second cold war that will last  
for

decades is absurd, and without foundation.

- Jed



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date:  
11/1/2008 7:56 PM



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date:  
11/1/2008 7:56 PM

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-02 Thread Jed Rothwell

Mark Iverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Gee Ed, I don't know any christians, buddists, scientologists or any other 
 belief systems that want
 to wipe out other belief systems;  that would strap bombs on their children 
 and handicapped, let
 alone 'sane' adults, all in the name of their religion/god.

You don't?!? You don't get out much, do you! You don't know much about
history. I know a whole nation of Buddhists who strapped their
18-year-old kids into flying bomb -- Mitsubishi Zero Fighter Aircraft
-- and killed thousands and thousands of Americans. I lived with a
professor who at age 16 and 17 was training every day and committed to
a suicide kamikaze attack.

Have you heard about Germany? One of the great Christian nations, the
birthplace of some of the finest Western scientists, authors,
musicians and philosophers who ever lived. It descended into the most
unspeakable barbarism ever recorded, only 60 years ago.

And how about us Americans? Are you aware of what we, as a nation, did
to our black population, and the native Americans, and the Japanese
Americans?

Really, it is incredible that anyone would say such things.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-02 Thread OrionWorks

From Mark Iverson,

 Gee Ed, I don't know any christians, buddists, scientologists or
 any other belief systems that want to wipe out other belief systems;
 that would strap bombs on  their children and handicapped, let
 alone 'sane' adults, all in the name of their religion/god.

 With all the acrimonious feelings you have about this country,
 sounds like you'd be much happier in Iraq or Iran!  I'll buy your ticket...

 -Mark

One has just got to wonder... what makes one a true and honorable U.S.
citizen these days. Please note that I didn't say a true American
since that would have to include all Canadians, Mexicans, and all of
Central and South America. Alaskans, too, but let's not quibble over
minor details.

Are the honorable U.S. Citizens only those who basically say: love it
or leave it?

...or can honorable citizens be those have the courage to point out
all of its flaws as the first step in suggesting ways to fix them.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-02 Thread Jeff Fink

Good Christians, living their faith by the book, love their enemies.  Good
Muslims, living their faith by the book, kill their enemies which include
all non Muslims.  Don't take my word for it.  Look it up.

The people on this list are technically brilliant, but in some other
important areas, the ignorance is astounding.

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: Mark Iverson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 6:56 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

Gee Ed, I don't know any christians, buddists, scientologists or any other
belief systems that want
to wipe out other belief systems;  that would strap bombs on their children
and handicapped, let
alone 'sane' adults, all in the name of their religion/god.  

With all the acrimonious feelings you have about this country, sounds like
you'd be much happier in
Iraq or Iran!  I'll buy your ticket...

-Mark


-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:38 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

How do you tell the good Christians from the bad Christians, Richard?  
Surely you know that bad Christians exist.  I suggest you use the same
method you would apply to
Christians.

Ed


On Nov 2, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

 R C Macaulay wrote:

 These people have their religious mandate to kill us. You try 
 separating the good muslims from the bad ones because I can't see the 
 difference.

 Not a problem! Not long ago, by historical standards, most Japanese 
 people had it in for us, and were determined to kill Americans. It was 
 more or less a religious thing -- Emperor worship, in their case. I 
 knew a good many of them, although they are mostly dead by now. They 
 fell into two groups, easily recognizable:

 1. People who were formerly committed to killing Americans, but who no 
 longer felt that way. This was the vast majority.

 2. People who still have it in for us, and/or the Russians, Chinese, 
 Koreans, and anyone else they went to war with in the 1930s and 40s.
 They are mostly tattooed gangsters (yakuza) who drive around in large 
 trucks playing military music at high volume, to cause trouble and 
 bother the neighborhood. You can't miss 'em. In 1990, one of them shot 
 the mayor of Nagasaki, because he said the Emperor was not god and was 
 partly responsible for the war.

 I never have had any difficulty telling peaceful Japanese people from 
 war-mongerers, and I am sure I would have no difficulty identifying 
 Muslims who want to kill us.

 Such people exist in every country, and every society, including our 
 own. But the numbers are usually small. There are many in the Muslim 
 societies at present because these societies are undergoing a crisis. 
 There is a civil war going on in Saudi Arabia, and in Afghanistan. It 
 is a fight between modernity (science, rationality and technology) and 
 a fanatical version of religion. Those wars spilled over into the U.S. 
 in the 9/11 attack. Fundamentally, they have little to do with us. We 
 just happen to be in the line of fire, you might say.

 There were many brutal fanatics in Japan in the 1930s because they 
 were undergoing a similar crisis, and in the U.S. in the 1860s for the 
 same reason. Such crises never last long. Either the society recovers 
 and acts civilized again, or it goes too far and destroys itself. 
 Pre-war Japanese society destroyed itself in 1941 at Pearl Harbor, and 
 the Confederacy died at Gettysburg in 1863. Sooner or later, Saudi 
 Arabia will either recover or destroy itself. It cannot go on in a war 
 with modernity for decades. When it recovers, the threat to us will 
 recede. That will happen a lot sooner if we stop using oil and 
 bankrupt them.

 I think the notion that we are in a second cold war that will last for 
 decades is absurd, and without foundation.

 - Jed


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date: 11/1/2008
7:56 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date: 11/1/2008
7:56 PM

RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-02 Thread Mark Iverson

Ed wrote:
As usual, your emotions get the better of logic

Tell me how logic supports your conclusion of As usual when referring to my 
post?  To me, I'd have
to have read at least 4 to 6 postings on a topic in order to feel like I would 
be justified in using
that phrase.  Obviously, you think one or two (very small postings) are 
adequate.  From what I've
been reading of your posts (MANY more than 4 or 6 I might add) and others, 
there is a whole lot more
emotion in them than in mine… The level of contempt and condescension in your 
postings toward the
conservative viewpoint is very strong and if you can't see that, then perhaps 
you should copy some
of your posts, delete your name from them and ask some people at the local 
store to rate the emotion
in them on a scale of 1 to 10.  Not whether they agree with them or not, just 
the emotional 'tone'…
might be enlightening.

In fact, there is very little emotion here.  What prompted my post was that the 
s/n ratio on this
list is pretty much in the toilet right now, again.  Why don't you create a new 
list for political
discussions and keep this list for what it was meant.  That was my point… 
however poorly stated.
Sorry about that…  Or, take a vote, and if the majority of Vorts don't mind the 
engaging political
rants, then I'll not try to keep that stuff out of here.

To answer your assumptions and comments…

I work in a company with offices all over the world, and with all kinds of 
people, from diverse
backgrounds and religions, and enjoy our conversations and admire and respect 
their expertise.  I
work closely with at least 2 (former) Iranian citizens, and asked why they 
decided to come here and
become U.S. citizens... Care to know why?  One, Farshid, even converted from 
Islam to
Zoroastrianism.  Care to know why?

My son-in-law has served three deployments in Iraq, and I'll take his word for 
what the place was
like before we got there and when he left... And for how the average Iraqi 
citizen feels about our
presence there.  Frankly, I wish we weren't there at all…

I also realize that the extremists I referred to are a small # of the muslim 
population, but you
don't see the muslim leaders coming out in strong opposition to the radical 
sects.  Why not?
Perhaps they are too afraid? That in itself speaks volumes...

You say that terrorist activity is not supported by the general region.  Saudi 
Arabia has unlimited
$ to help combat it, yet, are they?  Not that I'm aware of.  In fact, there are 
some who think that
the Saudis are to some degree funding it.  Have they sent in any equipment or 
security forces to
help the Iraqi govt stabilize things? Their other neighbor, Iran, is doing 
everything it can to
encourage the terrorist activities!  So I reject your premise that the region 
doesn't support that
behavior... And suggest that they could do a lot more to help… but the leaders 
in that area  would
rather build extravagant artificial islands and palaces.  How did they get all 
that wealth?
Capitalism perhaps?

You said: 
We killed thousands and destroyed a society in an attempt to kill a few people 
who might try to
hurt us in the future

And that former 'society' killed a hundred times that many (of it's own 
people), so I guess your
solution is to just turn a blind eye to it… we haven't taken any goods from 
that country, just the
opposite, nor their pride.

Granted, I'm not nearly caught up on the 250+ posting that are still unread, 
but I don't sense much
'love of country' in what I've read so far…

As I've said before, I am no fan of the Bush admin, and am pretty much fed up 
with most all
politicians… they are more concerned about the power struggle with the opposing 
party, and how to
get back or maintain power, than legislating in a responsible manner what's 
best for the average
citizen.  I have no doubt that this country would be much better off if we 
eliminated the political
parties altogether… people and politicians might begin to put country first 
instead of party.

-Mark


-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [HYPERLINK mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL 
PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:40 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan


As usual, your emotions get the better of logic. First of all, not all Muslims 
are suicide bombers
nor is this an action that is supported by the general region. Also, how do you 
separate this action
from when we operate when we bomb from the air? Of course, you can say that we 
are trying to hit bad
people, which we miss on occasion, but we are sorry when innocent people are 
killed. We killed
thousands and destroyed a society in an attempt to kill a few people who might 
try to hurt us in the
future.  But this is ok with you because we are acting in self defense, but the 
suicide bombers are
not.  In fact, this is he only way they have to fight us and the better armed 
countries that take
their goods

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-02 Thread thomas malloy


R C Macaulay wrote:

I noticed that Colin didn't dwell on the oldest running war in history 
that started way back in Canaan's day, next to 1800 BC with Ismael.. 
then to Edom.. to Herod ( Esau's kinfolk)  and a slight jump to 
Muhammed in AD600. Or as t



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXWqX_O4BKY

It moved me to tears.



Brilliant post Richard


--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

Re: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

2008-11-02 Thread Harry Veeder

The same argument applies to Christains with respect
to certain passages in their bible.

Harry

- Original Message -
From: Jeff Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008 10:20 pm
Subject: RE: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

 If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have
 Jews been living in their cities for over a millennium?

 Because most Muslims are not living their religion by the book!  
 Only what
 we refer to as the extremists behave that way.  Most Muslims show 
 much more
 kindness than that.

 Jeff

 -Original Message-
 From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:47 PM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Subject: Re: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

 If good Muslims kill all non-muslims why have
 Jews been living in their cities for over a millennium?

 Harry

 - Original Message -
 From: Jeff Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008 9:33 pm
 Subject: RE: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan

  Good Christians, living their faith by the book, love their 
  enemies.  Good
  Muslims, living their faith by the book, kill their enemies which 
  includeall non Muslims.  Don't take my word for it.  Look it up.

  The people on this list are technically brilliant, but in some other
  important areas, the ignorance is astounding.

  Jeff

Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan