Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Has there been any development in a replacement for WOBuilder? Although XCODE is dead I rely quite a lot on some sort of visual binding and element view and so keep on using it for that. Any news would be good - I have seen the thread on the WIKI but that does not have a conclusion - and I would love to contribute financially to a basic but functional replacement. Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. It is a lot of work and I doubt it will happen. The text tools in WOLIps are really quite good (meaning easy to use and productive). Personally, I much prefer them to how WOBuilder does it. I got used to WOComponentEditor, I must admit. But I still think a replacement for WOBuilder is necessary. That would increase productivity on some types of components, and help attract programmers to WO. And I think WO need a bigger community (although today's community is clever). JPM ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WO used internally by Apple, a bad thing?
This post ought to be sent to WO-talk, but I can't post there right now. A lot of people say that because Apple is using WO internally, we need not worry about WO death. I agree with that, but I am starting to wonder whether Apple using WO is a good thing for WO... If Apple had chosen another technology for iTunes store, the Apple Store and .mac, WO would no longer be a matter of competitive advantage for Apple and therefore, Apple could open source it. WO would have evolved much faster if Apple was not using it. What is the reason for sticking with apache 1.3 and java 1.4 for so long if not Apple internal apps? Isn't WO evolving slowly because Apple needs to keep it compatible with old code it uses in its internal applications, and old deployment platforms? What prevent Apple from publishing clear roadmaps for WO? The fact that the future of the product depends on Apple's internal needs, which can vary a lot, and that Apple does not want to disclose. Overall, I am not sure that Apple using WO internally is a very good thing for WO. JPM ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. I'd certainly buy a few licenses at that price. In fact, I wouldn't bat an eye lid at 500 USD. I'm getting use to WOComponentEditor, but i'm still no where near as productive as I am with WOBuilder. I tend to use WOBuilder to throw together the main structure of a component and then tinker with it in WOComponentEditor thereafter. Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO used internally by Apple, a bad thing?
On 5 Jul 2007, at 08:32, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: What prevent Apple from publishing clear roadmaps for WO? On the subject of road maps, I don't think there has been any public announcement of what was said at WWDC yet has there ? I have been away for a week, but I'm sure the mailing lists would have been teeming with posts had there been any news! Can anyone at Apple give us an update on that ? Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO used internally by Apple, a bad thing?
On 5 Jul 2007, at 08:32, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: A lot of people say that because Apple is using WO internally, we need not worry about WO death. I don't see Apple's use of it as a reason not to worry about WO death. They tend to do what the hell they like anyway (like deprecating the tools !!). I think the fact that WO is still embedded in the heart of many huge organisations (the BBC, European banks etc) is WO's saving grace. My confidence in WO's future is directly proportional to the number of big deployments. So if the BBC ever drop WO, I'll be getting nervous again... Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO used internally by Apple, a bad thing?
On 05/07/2007, at 5:32 PM, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: This post ought to be sent to WO-talk, but I can't post there right now. A lot of people say that because Apple is using WO internally, we need not worry about WO death. I agree with that, but I am starting to wonder whether Apple using WO is a good thing for WO... If Apple had chosen another technology for iTunes store, the Apple Store and .mac, WO would no longer be a matter of competitive advantage for Apple and therefore, Apple could open source it. WO would have evolved much faster if Apple was not using it. What is the reason for sticking with apache 1.3 and java 1.4 for so long if not Apple internal apps? Isn't WO evolving slowly because Apple needs to keep it compatible with old code it uses in its internal applications, and old deployment platforms? What prevent Apple from publishing clear roadmaps for WO? The fact that the future of the product depends on Apple's internal needs, which can vary a lot, and that Apple does not want to disclose. Overall, I am not sure that Apple using WO internally is a very good thing for WO. All conjecture/speculation but either way... what's the purpose of this email thread? with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Le 07-07-05 à 03:12, Jean Pierre Malrieu a écrit : Has there been any development in a replacement for WOBuilder? Although XCODE is dead I rely quite a lot on some sort of visual binding and element view and so keep on using it for that. Any news would be good - I have seen the thread on the WIKI but that does not have a conclusion - and I would love to contribute financially to a basic but functional replacement. Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. The problem is that we don't have those numbers. So far, we have 82 organizations who are willing to buy/finance a WO Builder-like tool, and since the average number of people per organization is 3, that means 246 possible licenses, so that means 400$ per people. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO used internally by Apple, a bad thing?
Hi! One thing that Apple has cleared showed it's clients is that they don't specially care about backward compatibility beyond a certain point. If they think there's a clear advantage in doing something, they will do it, like moving to Apache 2, etc. So I don't think that backward compatibility with Apple installed systems is the reason for WO development being so slow. Keep in mind that Apache 2 will only be the default web server on Leopard Server that didn't come out yet. Tiger Server has Apache 2, but the default and recommended server is Apache 1. So this is not a WO-specific issue. Looks like Apple didn't trust Apache 2 until a few months ago. About open-sourcing, I have very mixed feeling about open-source in general. I prefer to have few people working slowly in a certain product, but keeping a high level of quality, than having everyone (including people that don't really understand the framework) committing code. I think that, most of the times, open source leads to lower quality, unless the project leaders have a very strong hand. We are lucky in the WO Community because guys like Mike and Anjo know a lot about WO and are very good coders, but the majority of the other projects are not that lucky. (Of course, one could say exactly the same about commercial apps, that's why I have mixed feelings!) Also, I believe the fact that Apple uses WO internally is the reason why it still exists, why is it so stable, and why is Apple supporting the WO open-source community. Yours Miguel Arroz On 2007/07/05, at 08:32, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: This post ought to be sent to WO-talk, but I can't post there right now. A lot of people say that because Apple is using WO internally, we need not worry about WO death. I agree with that, but I am starting to wonder whether Apple using WO is a good thing for WO... If Apple had chosen another technology for iTunes store, the Apple Store and .mac, WO would no longer be a matter of competitive advantage for Apple and therefore, Apple could open source it. WO would have evolved much faster if Apple was not using it. What is the reason for sticking with apache 1.3 and java 1.4 for so long if not Apple internal apps? Isn't WO evolving slowly because Apple needs to keep it compatible with old code it uses in its internal applications, and old deployment platforms? What prevent Apple from publishing clear roadmaps for WO? The fact that the future of the product depends on Apple's internal needs, which can vary a lot, and that Apple does not want to disclose. Overall, I am not sure that Apple using WO internally is a very good thing for WO. JPM ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz% 40guiamac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Webobjects XCode
Chuck Hill pisze: On Jul 4, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Ketema J. Harris wrote: I appreciate the advice. I now have Eclipse up an WOLips installed. I am running through some tutorials and have a bunch to learn. In one of the links provided by Chuck, I noticed that apache can be used as the webserver for WO. Is this the standard now? Reason I ask is because I have plenty of Linux boxes with apache on them lying around with which I can play, and really do not want to use my xserve if I don't have to. (I like it doing what's it doing). You can deploy on Linux, but some extra steps are needed to build the Apache module for WO on your specific Linux distro. I don't have any links handy for the steps. http://www.power.com.pl/pl/webobjects/installation#header ^ there's a gentoo WO installation guide -- Cyryl Plotnicki-Chudyk Software Developer Power Media S.A. http://www.power.com.pl District Court for Wroclaw-Fabryczna KRS: 281947 NIP: PL-898-16-47-572 Capital stock: 500 000 PLN ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Le 5 juil. 07 à 09:57, Pascal Robert a écrit : Le 07-07-05 à 03:12, Jean Pierre Malrieu a écrit : Has there been any development in a replacement for WOBuilder? Although XCODE is dead I rely quite a lot on some sort of visual binding and element view and so keep on using it for that. Any news would be good - I have seen the thread on the WIKI but that does not have a conclusion - and I would love to contribute financially to a basic but functional replacement. Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. The problem is that we don't have those numbers. So far, we have 82 organizations who are willing to buy/finance a WO Builder-like tool, and since the average number of people per organization is 3, that means 246 possible licenses, so that means 400$ per people. If Mike is doing it, I am sure it will be worth the 400$! Let's say 500$ for a fully functional, polished EntityModeler / WOBuilder bundle... That would be a fair reward, considering all the stuff Mike gave to the community. I think you can expect selling more than 250 licences. I know at least two companies here in France, in the town where I live, that are so busy that they no longer read the american mailing lists, and probably have not completed your survey. Did Steve Jobs complete the survey? I heard there are 100 WO developpers at Apple, that means 100 licences! ;-) JPM ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Hi Pascal - Have you asked the 82 organisations how much they would pay ? We would buy 3 seats at 400 USD each. Simon On 5 Jul 2007, at 08:57, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 07-07-05 à 03:12, Jean Pierre Malrieu a écrit : Has there been any development in a replacement for WOBuilder? Although XCODE is dead I rely quite a lot on some sort of visual binding and element view and so keep on using it for that. Any news would be good - I have seen the thread on the WIKI but that does not have a conclusion - and I would love to contribute financially to a basic but functional replacement. Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. The problem is that we don't have those numbers. So far, we have 82 organizations who are willing to buy/finance a WO Builder-like tool, and since the average number of people per organization is 3, that means 246 possible licenses, so that means 400$ per people. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/simon_mclean% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
I too would pay $400 Gino On 5 Jul 2007, at 09:55, Simon McLean wrote: Hi Pascal - Have you asked the 82 organisations how much they would pay ? We would buy 3 seats at 400 USD each. Simon On 5 Jul 2007, at 08:57, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 07-07-05 à 03:12, Jean Pierre Malrieu a écrit : Has there been any development in a replacement for WOBuilder? Although XCODE is dead I rely quite a lot on some sort of visual binding and element view and so keep on using it for that. Any news would be good - I have seen the thread on the WIKI but that does not have a conclusion - and I would love to contribute financially to a basic but functional replacement. Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. The problem is that we don't have those numbers. So far, we have 82 organizations who are willing to buy/finance a WO Builder-like tool, and since the average number of people per organization is 3, that means 246 possible licenses, so that means 400$ per people. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/simon_mclean% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ginokris% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
On 5 Jul 2007, at 09:53, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: Let's say 500$ for a fully functional, polished EntityModeler / WOBuilder bundle... That would be a fair reward, considering all the stuff Mike gave to the community. Now that is a fine idea. Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
getting the database values of an object without changing the one in the current editing context
Hi, I'm not sure my subject is understandable, anyway. Assuming I have an object x, I'm manipulating it in an editing context. At a certain point I need to get the original object (the one from the database) but without changing anything to the one in my editing context. How could I do that? I need the object in its globality, so if I can get the object directly and not a dictionary of its values it's better:) You can answer bla bla project wonder:) but please point me to the correct method as I didn't find it for now;) Thanks, Xavier ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
DirectAction: NSDictionary of the form values
Hi guys,
I'm having a problem w/ the Dictionary returned by the DirectAction's
form values. More precisely, I have a DirectAction w/ some form
values like:
...DirectAction.woa/wa/default?key1=value1key2=value2
The method request().formValues() returns an NSDictionary looking
like that:
{key1 = (value1); key2 = (value2); }
Unfortunately, the values are wrapped into ( ) and therefore I
cannot pass this dictionary to ask the
EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method for database entries.
Am I doing s.th. wrong or is there an easy way to convert the wrapped
values to unwrapped versions?
Thanx,
Edgar
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Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Although $500 might be a fair reward for such a tool, I truly doubt that enough parties would pay it to cover Chuck's and Mike's estimates. I think that there are few on this list who individually, or whose companies, would pony up $500 per developer head for an undeveloped piece of software. That would mean that either some one or two companies underwrites the development, or the developers work for about a year on no pay until they have a product to market, then they might get paid, but only after people have taken the time to download and test the resulting product and found it worthy. That latter activity can take a few months for many in the community. Once they have the new WOBuilder in hand, how many of them will hold the old WOBuilder in the other hand and say, Hmmm... $500 for this one and the old one is FREE along with the WO frameworks, all the other development tools and Project Wonder! Does it make sense for me to spend $500 on this one tool. Nah, we can get by with the old tools till they cease to function, then we can keep a couple workstations running the old versions of Mac OS X and WO to get by for a few more years. To Chuck and Mike, was your ... estimate of US$100,000 to US $150,000 ... based on starting from scratch, or on building from the original WOBuilder's Objective C codebase? If Apple provided the code base, would that reduce the estimate in your opinion? I think building a new WOBuilder is a worthy objective, but I don't realistically believe that whoever does it will recoup the money indicated by estimates of the sizes given. Regards, Jerry On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:58 AM, Simon McLean wrote: On 5 Jul 2007, at 09:53, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: Let's say 500$ for a fully functional, polished EntityModeler / WOBuilder bundle... That would be a fair reward, considering all the stuff Mike gave to the community. Now that is a fine idea. Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jerrywwalker% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- __ Jerry W. Walker, WebObjects Developer/Instructor for High Performance Industrial Strength Internet Enabled Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203 278-4085office ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting the database values of an object without changing the one in the current editing context
WO Dev wrote: Hi, I'm not sure my subject is understandable, anyway. Assuming I have an object x, I'm manipulating it in an editing context. At a certain point I need to get the original object (the one from the database) but without changing anything to the one in my editing context. How could I do that? I need the object in its globality, so if I can get the object directly and not a dictionary of its values it's better:) You can answer bla bla project wonder:) but please point me to the correct method as I didn't find it for now;) one of the possible ways of doing that is to make object.snapshot() before changing it and after some time create new editing context , fetch the object into it and then do objectInTheNewEditingContext.updateFromSnapshot() changes would be made to the objectInTheNewEditingContext only -- Cyryl Plotnicki-Chudyk Software Developer Power Media S.A. http://www.power.com.pl District Court for Wroclaw-Fabryczna KRS: 281947 NIP: PL-898-16-47-572 Capital stock: 500 000 PLN ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Reminder] WebObjects Community Survey 2007 !
Pascal, is it possible to see the results? atze Am 04.07.2007 um 02:34 schrieb Pascal Robert: I know, it was Canada Day 3 days ago, and now it's Independance Day in the States, but don't forget our community survey ! http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=Rd8PBbh0xxJh3eyuPPvdIg_3d_3d It only takes 5 to 10 minutes to complete it, so don't be shy. Other rules : - One survey per organization, if I see the same organization more than one time, I will delete the duplicates - Please, please, be honest in your answers The survey is open up to August 31th. If you have a blog, please add a link to the survey so that more people are aware of it. Thanks ! Freeport Soliversum Alexander Spohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.freeport.de ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
That is collective action. You are never sure others will behave in a cooperative way. But you must trust others in order to get anything happening. So perhaps, instead of saying what you think others will do, you should tell us about what you can be reasonably sure about: what price you or your company would pay or donate for such a product. And I no longer use WOBuilder. It keeps crashing, you need to have xCode open to get bindings workings, when you have WOBuilder and WOComponentEditor editing the same file, you are never sure you are not overwriting changes... We need an IDE, not a bunch of partial, unstable solutions. I agree with you that 500$ is perhaps a high price, compared to what you can get on the market for Eclipse plugins. On the other hand, you are working all day long with these tools, and if something really neat can be used, you will not hesitate very long. JPM Le 5 juil. 07 à 12:34, Jerry W. Walker a écrit : Although $500 might be a fair reward for such a tool, I truly doubt that enough parties would pay it to cover Chuck's and Mike's estimates. I think that there are few on this list who individually, or whose companies, would pony up $500 per developer head for an undeveloped piece of software. That would mean that either some one or two companies underwrites the development, or the developers work for about a year on no pay until they have a product to market, then they might get paid, but only after people have taken the time to download and test the resulting product and found it worthy. That latter activity can take a few months for many in the community. Once they have the new WOBuilder in hand, how many of them will hold the old WOBuilder in the other hand and say, Hmmm... $500 for this one and the old one is FREE along with the WO frameworks, all the other development tools and Project Wonder! Does it make sense for me to spend $500 on this one tool. Nah, we can get by with the old tools till they cease to function, then we can keep a couple workstations running the old versions of Mac OS X and WO to get by for a few more years. To Chuck and Mike, was your ... estimate of US$100,000 to US $150,000 ... based on starting from scratch, or on building from the original WOBuilder's Objective C codebase? If Apple provided the code base, would that reduce the estimate in your opinion? I think building a new WOBuilder is a worthy objective, but I don't realistically believe that whoever does it will recoup the money indicated by estimates of the sizes given. Regards, Jerry On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:58 AM, Simon McLean wrote: On 5 Jul 2007, at 09:53, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: Let's say 500$ for a fully functional, polished EntityModeler / WOBuilder bundle... That would be a fair reward, considering all the stuff Mike gave to the community. Now that is a fine idea. Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jerrywwalker% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- __ Jerry W. Walker, WebObjects Developer/Instructor for High Performance Industrial Strength Internet Enabled Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203 278-4085office ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting the database values of an object without changing the one in the current editing context
Xavier, maybe you should use a second EOEditingContext to fetch that „original“? Or you migrate to a second edcon before you start to modify? atze Am 05.07.2007 um 12:28 schrieb WO Dev: Hi, I'm not sure my subject is understandable, anyway. Assuming I have an object x, I'm manipulating it in an editing context. At a certain point I need to get the original object (the one from the database) but without changing anything to the one in my editing context. How could I do that? I need the object in its globality, so if I can get the object directly and not a dictionary of its values it's better:) You can answer bla bla project wonder:) but please point me to the correct method as I didn't find it for now;) Thanks, Xavier ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/atze% 40freeport.de This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freeport Soliversum Alexander Spohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.freeport.de ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting the database values of an object without changing the one in the current editing context
Xavier, EOF does this exact thing when it's deciding what has changed in your object, and what updates it needs to perform. It does this by using the snapshot, which is how I'd recommend you doing this as well. It would help if you clued us in to *why* you need it - so that answers could be crafted to your particular usage. Ken On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:28 AM, WO Dev wrote: Hi, I'm not sure my subject is understandable, anyway. Assuming I have an object x, I'm manipulating it in an editing context. At a certain point I need to get the original object (the one from the database) but without changing anything to the one in my editing context. How could I do that? I need the object in its globality, so if I can get the object directly and not a dictionary of its values it's better:) You can answer bla bla project wonder:) but please point me to the correct method as I didn't find it for now;) Thanks, Xavier ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists% 40anderhome.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting the database values of an object without changing the one in the current editing context
Thanks Cyryl, Well I was hoping not to have to deal with I have to store the object somewhere before even knowing I might need it's previous state later;) Xavier WO Dev wrote: Hi, I'm not sure my subject is understandable, anyway. Assuming I have an object x, I'm manipulating it in an editing context. At a certain point I need to get the original object (the one from the database) but without changing anything to the one in my editing context. How could I do that? I need the object in its globality, so if I can get the object directly and not a dictionary of its values it's better:) You can answer bla bla project wonder:) but please point me to the correct method as I didn't find it for now;) one of the possible ways of doing that is to make object.snapshot() before changing it and after some time create new editing context , fetch the object into it and then do objectInTheNewEditingContext.updateFromSnapshot() changes would be made to the objectInTheNewEditingContext only -- Cyryl Plotnicki-Chudyk Software Developer Power Media S.A. http://www.power.com.pl District Court for Wroclaw-Fabryczna KRS: 281947 NIP: PL-898-16-47-572 Capital stock: 500 000 PLN ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting the database values of an object without changing the one in the current editing context
Hello Atze:), I could do that. Am I going to have issues if I try to create a local instance in my current editing context? I'll try that, thanks Xavier Xavier, maybe you should use a second EOEditingContext to fetch that „original“? Or you migrate to a second edcon before you start to modify? atze Am 05.07.2007 um 12:28 schrieb WO Dev: Hi, I'm not sure my subject is understandable, anyway. Assuming I have an object x, I'm manipulating it in an editing context. At a certain point I need to get the original object (the one from the database) but without changing anything to the one in my editing context. How could I do that? I need the object in its globality, so if I can get the object directly and not a dictionary of its values it's better:) You can answer bla bla project wonder:) but please point me to the correct method as I didn't find it for now;) Thanks, Xavier ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/atze% 40freeport.de This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freeport Soliversum Alexander Spohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.freeport.de ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
I am skeptical about fundraising in general, but then somehow even losing US political candidates manage to raise tens of millions for their campaigns, so what do I know :-) Good luck! And maybe if you raise the cash upfront (as opposed to trying to recoup the costs by selling licenses afterwards), you can keep the tool open source? Andrus On Jul 5, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Jerry W. Walker wrote: Although $500 might be a fair reward for such a tool, I truly doubt that enough parties would pay it to cover Chuck's and Mike's estimates. I think that there are few on this list who individually, or whose companies, would pony up $500 per developer head for an undeveloped piece of software. That would mean that either some one or two companies underwrites the development, or the developers work for about a year on no pay until they have a product to market, then they might get paid, but only after people have taken the time to download and test the resulting product and found it worthy. That latter activity can take a few months for many in the community. Once they have the new WOBuilder in hand, how many of them will hold the old WOBuilder in the other hand and say, Hmmm... $500 for this one and the old one is FREE along with the WO frameworks, all the other development tools and Project Wonder! Does it make sense for me to spend $500 on this one tool. Nah, we can get by with the old tools till they cease to function, then we can keep a couple workstations running the old versions of Mac OS X and WO to get by for a few more years. To Chuck and Mike, was your ... estimate of US$100,000 to US $150,000 ... based on starting from scratch, or on building from the original WOBuilder's Objective C codebase? If Apple provided the code base, would that reduce the estimate in your opinion? I think building a new WOBuilder is a worthy objective, but I don't realistically believe that whoever does it will recoup the money indicated by estimates of the sizes given. Regards, Jerry On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:58 AM, Simon McLean wrote: On 5 Jul 2007, at 09:53, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: Let's say 500$ for a fully functional, polished EntityModeler / WOBuilder bundle... That would be a fair reward, considering all the stuff Mike gave to the community. Now that is a fine idea. Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jerrywwalker% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- __ Jerry W. Walker, WebObjects Developer/Instructor for High Performance Industrial Strength Internet Enabled Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203 278-4085office ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/andrus% 40objectstyle.org This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
The problem is that we don't have How many licenses would you buy at $X? which is really all that matters. On Jul 5, 2007, at 8:34 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Yes, the survey is asking that question with price ranges : Some people think that what's missing from Eclipse/WOLips is a graphical WOComponent editor to WebObjects Builder. Do you want such a tool, and if yes, how much are you ready to give to have such a tool. Yes, but it must be free and open source Yes, but it must be free (closed or open source) $100 USD or less $250 USD or less $500 USD or less No, I won't use such a tool The 82 organizations number is the stats for people willing to buy it, I didn't count the people that said Yes, but it must be free. 16.3% said that they won't use such a tool. Hi Pascal - Have you asked the 82 organisations how much they would pay ? We would buy 3 seats at 400 USD each. Simon On 5 Jul 2007, at 08:57, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 07-07-05 à 03:12, Jean Pierre Malrieu a écrit : Has there been any development in a replacement for WOBuilder? Although XCODE is dead I rely quite a lot on some sort of visual binding and element view and so keep on using it for that. Any news would be good - I have seen the thread on the WIKI but that does not have a conclusion - and I would love to contribute financially to a basic but functional replacement. Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. The problem is that we don't have those numbers. So far, we have 82 organizations who are willing to buy/finance a WO Builder-like tool, and since the average number of people per organization is 3, that means 246 possible licenses, so that means 400$ per people. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Yes, the survey is asking that question with price ranges : Some people think that what's missing from Eclipse/WOLips is a graphical WOComponent editor to WebObjects Builder. Do you want such a tool, and if yes, how much are you ready to give to have such a tool. Yes, but it must be free and open source Yes, but it must be free (closed or open source) $100 USD or less $250 USD or less $500 USD or less No, I won't use such a tool The 82 organizations number is the stats for people willing to buy it, I didn't count the people that said Yes, but it must be free. 16.3% said that they won't use such a tool. Hi Pascal - Have you asked the 82 organisations how much they would pay ? We would buy 3 seats at 400 USD each. Simon On 5 Jul 2007, at 08:57, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 07-07-05 à 03:12, Jean Pierre Malrieu a écrit : Has there been any development in a replacement for WOBuilder? Although XCODE is dead I rely quite a lot on some sort of visual binding and element view and so keep on using it for that. Any news would be good - I have seen the thread on the WIKI but that does not have a conclusion - and I would love to contribute financially to a basic but functional replacement. Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. The problem is that we don't have those numbers. So far, we have 82 organizations who are willing to buy/finance a WO Builder-like tool, and since the average number of people per organization is 3, that means 246 possible licenses, so that means 400$ per people. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Those estimates were all for starting from scratch, which I believe is what should be done (Apple will not release the source to the original, anyway -- I've brought it up several times over the last couple years). To do a WOBuilder properly, it needs to be rethought. WOBuilder now is built like IB, but that's really not exactly right, because in a proper system, you're dealing almost entirely in custom components and you can only really render custom components with live-like data (or in a live environment). I have some ideas for this, but a lot of it just comes down to interface experimentation to see what works and what doesn't. If we built a WOBuilder, we would really only build one that I would use, too, so it has to not suck (this quite possibly means such an app is not an Eclipse plugin, but just has an eclipse plugin integration layer along the lines of how WOB + PB/Xc work). I think about this app all the time, but I just have not yet seen the economics. I asked at WWDC who would pay real money (granted, an unspecified amount) for a WOBuilder and VERY few hands went up in a pretty large room of WO developers. I'm with Jerry ... I am just not convinced that there would be enough licenses sold to justify such an effort. Who knows .. Maybe I'm wrong. Speak up with #'s and prove me wrong. Email me directly if you're not comfortable posting on the list and I'll post some aggregates. Like I said, I think about this all the time, but I have to be able to go to my boss (who graciously already lets me donate huge numbers of man-hours to this stuff as it stands) with some sort of justification for putting people on a project like this for several months. ms On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:34 AM, Jerry W. Walker wrote: Although $500 might be a fair reward for such a tool, I truly doubt that enough parties would pay it to cover Chuck's and Mike's estimates. I think that there are few on this list who individually, or whose companies, would pony up $500 per developer head for an undeveloped piece of software. That would mean that either some one or two companies underwrites the development, or the developers work for about a year on no pay until they have a product to market, then they might get paid, but only after people have taken the time to download and test the resulting product and found it worthy. That latter activity can take a few months for many in the community. Once they have the new WOBuilder in hand, how many of them will hold the old WOBuilder in the other hand and say, Hmmm... $500 for this one and the old one is FREE along with the WO frameworks, all the other development tools and Project Wonder! Does it make sense for me to spend $500 on this one tool. Nah, we can get by with the old tools till they cease to function, then we can keep a couple workstations running the old versions of Mac OS X and WO to get by for a few more years. To Chuck and Mike, was your ... estimate of US$100,000 to US $150,000 ... based on starting from scratch, or on building from the original WOBuilder's Objective C codebase? If Apple provided the code base, would that reduce the estimate in your opinion? I think building a new WOBuilder is a worthy objective, but I don't realistically believe that whoever does it will recoup the money indicated by estimates of the sizes given. Regards, Jerry On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:58 AM, Simon McLean wrote: On 5 Jul 2007, at 09:53, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: Let's say 500$ for a fully functional, polished EntityModeler / WOBuilder bundle... That would be a fair reward, considering all the stuff Mike gave to the community. Now that is a fine idea. Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jerrywwalker% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- __ Jerry W. Walker, WebObjects Developer/Instructor for High Performance Industrial Strength Internet Enabled Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203 278-4085office ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Reminder] WebObjects Community Survey 2007 !
I will post a preview of the stats this week-end. Pascal, is it possible to see the results? atze Am 04.07.2007 um 02:34 schrieb Pascal Robert: I know, it was Canada Day 3 days ago, and now it's Independance Day in the States, but don't forget our community survey ! http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=Rd8PBbh0xxJh3eyuPPvdIg_3d_3d It only takes 5 to 10 minutes to complete it, so don't be shy. Other rules : - One survey per organization, if I see the same organization more than one time, I will delete the duplicates - Please, please, be honest in your answers The survey is open up to August 31th. If you have a blog, please add a link to the survey so that more people are aware of it. Thanks ! Freeport Soliversum Alexander Spohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.freeport.de ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DirectAction: NSDictionary of the form values
Hi, Edgar,
The NSDictionary that you receive from request().formValues()
contains NSArray values for each key. WO must presume that the values
returned are arrays of values, because some form elements can return
an array of values and WO has no way of determining whether a given
form value should be an array or not, so it opts for the more general
case, presuming that they should all be arrays, and returns single
valued arrays for the cases that only a single value is returned for
a given key.
Given that information, you could use request().formValueKeys() to
get the list of keys present and iterate through all the keys using
request().formValueForKey(key) to unwrap the array around each given
value to build out your own NSMutableDictionary to pass to the
EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method. Such as:
...
NSArray myResults = EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues
(unwrappedFormValues());
...
private NSDictionary unwrappedFormValues()
{
NSArray keys = request().formValueKeys();
NSMutableDictionary results = new NSMutableDictionary(keys.count());
Enumeration e = keys.objectEnumerator();
while (e.hasMoreElements()) {
NSArray theValueArray = request().formValueForKey(key);
results.setObjectForKey(theValueArray.lastObject(), key);
}
return results.immutableClone();
}
Regards,
Jerry
On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:33 AM, Edgar Ra. Klein wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm having a problem w/ the Dictionary returned by the
DirectAction's form values. More precisely, I have a DirectAction
w/ some form values like:
...DirectAction.woa/wa/default?key1=value1key2=value2
The method request().formValues() returns an NSDictionary looking
like that:
{key1 = (value1); key2 = (value2); }
Unfortunately, the values are wrapped into ( ) and therefore I
cannot pass this dictionary to ask the
EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method for database entries.
Am I doing s.th. wrong or is there an easy way to convert the
wrapped values to unwrapped versions?
Thanx,
Edgar
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Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Can't Apple be persuaded to contribute a small development team that worked with other WO Community members on this... That might bring costs down and offer a soft landing for those of us that like to use a GUI to components and interface design... Gino On 5 Jul 2007, at 14:03, Jeremy Matthews wrote: Although I understand the speed and the ease of Eclipses' Editor, I must admit that sometimes I miss WOBuilder... I'd gladly pay $500 for a full WOBuilder Replacement...with or without Entity Modeler bundled (Since Mike is working on that anyways...)...maybe 2 licenses. I might be able to swing more next year Now whether it integrates with Eclipse or not...well, I've seen some nice things in Eclipse...but I'm willing to hear it out. Thanks, j ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ginokris% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Although I understand the speed and the ease of Eclipses' Editor, I must admit that sometimes I miss WOBuilder... I'd gladly pay $500 for a full WOBuilder Replacement...with or without Entity Modeler bundled (Since Mike is working on that anyways...)...maybe 2 licenses. I might be able to swing more next year Now whether it integrates with Eclipse or not...well, I've seen some nice things in Eclipse...but I'm willing to hear it out. Thanks, j ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
People : I will create a specific survey in a couple of days about WOLips and WOBuilder alternatives, so wait until next Monday (July 9th) to say how much licenses you will buy. It will be way more easier to collect the numbers with a survey :-) The problem is that we don't have How many licenses would you buy at $X? which is really all that matters. On Jul 5, 2007, at 8:34 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Yes, the survey is asking that question with price ranges : Some people think that what's missing from Eclipse/WOLips is a graphical WOComponent editor to WebObjects Builder. Do you want such a tool, and if yes, how much are you ready to give to have such a tool. Yes, but it must be free and open source Yes, but it must be free (closed or open source) $100 USD or less $250 USD or less $500 USD or less No, I won't use such a tool The 82 organizations number is the stats for people willing to buy it, I didn't count the people that said Yes, but it must be free. 16.3% said that they won't use such a tool. Hi Pascal - Have you asked the 82 organisations how much they would pay ? We would buy 3 seats at 400 USD each. Simon On 5 Jul 2007, at 08:57, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 07-07-05 à 03:12, Jean Pierre Malrieu a écrit : Has there been any development in a replacement for WOBuilder? Although XCODE is dead I rely quite a lot on some sort of visual binding and element view and so keep on using it for that. Any news would be good - I have seen the thread on the WIKI but that does not have a conclusion - and I would love to contribute financially to a basic but functional replacement. Mike Schrag and I kicked this idea around a while back. We made a ballpark estimate of US$100,000 to US$150,000 in development costs. Still want to contribute financially? :-) Yes why not? That's 100$ for 1000 persons, or 200$ for 500 persons. It seems reasonable to me. The problem is that we don't have those numbers. So far, we have 82 organizations who are willing to buy/finance a WO Builder-like tool, and since the average number of people per organization is 3, that means 246 possible licenses, so that means 400$ per people. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DirectAction: NSDictionary of the form values
Hi,
On 05.07.2007, at 14:56, Jean-François Veillette wrote:
from your description, it look like 'formValues()' wrap all values in
an array (from the doc).
formValues()
Returns an NSDictionary containing all of the form data
with names for keys and NSArrays containing the value(s)
associated with those keys for values.
so to get value1, you would do :
String value1 = (String) request().formValues().valueForKey
(key1).objectAtIndex(0);
Or simply use 'formValueForKey':
String value1 = (String) request().formValueForKey(key1);
Thanx for the helpful hint :)
Regards,
Edgar
Le 07-07-05 à 06:33, Edgar Ra. Klein a écrit :
Hi guys,
I'm having a problem w/ the Dictionary returned by the
DirectAction's form values. More precisely, I have a DirectAction
w/ some form values like:
...DirectAction.woa/wa/default?key1=value1key2=value2
The method request().formValues() returns an NSDictionary looking
like that:
{key1 = (value1); key2 = (value2); }
Unfortunately, the values are wrapped into ( ) and therefore I
cannot pass this dictionary to ask the
EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method for database entries.
Am I doing s.th. wrong or is there an easy way to convert the
wrapped values to unwrapped versions?
Thanx,
Edgar
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Re: DirectAction: NSDictionary of the form values
Hi Jerry,
On 05.07.2007, at 15:26, Jerry W. Walker wrote:
Hi, Edgar,
The NSDictionary that you receive from request().formValues()
contains NSArray values for each key. WO must presume that the
values returned are arrays of values, because some form elements
can return an array of values and WO has no way of determining
whether a given form value should be an array or not, so it opts
for the more general case, presuming that they should all be
arrays, and returns single valued arrays for the cases that only a
single value is returned for a given key.
This is a good thing to know, thank you!
Given that information, you could use request().formValueKeys() to
get the list of keys present and iterate through all the keys using
request().formValueForKey(key) to unwrap the array around each
given value to build out your own NSMutableDictionary to pass to
the EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method. Such as:
...
NSArray myResults = EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues
(unwrappedFormValues());
...
private NSDictionary unwrappedFormValues()
{
NSArray keys = request().formValueKeys();
NSMutableDictionary results = new NSMutableDictionary(keys.count());
Enumeration e = keys.objectEnumerator();
while (e.hasMoreElements()) {
NSArray theValueArray = request().formValueForKey(key);
results.setObjectForKey(theValueArray.lastObject(), key);
}
return results.immutableClone();
}
The code I just wrote is:
public NSDictionary convertFormValues() {
NSMutableDictionary resultDictionary = new NSMutableDictionary();
NSArray keys = request().formValueKeys();
for (int i = 0 ; i keys.count() ; i++) {
String key = (String) keys.objectAtIndex(i);
String value = (String) request().formValueForKey(key);
resultDictionary.takeValueForKey(value, key);
}
return resultDictionary.immutableClone();
}
I feel like having a deja vu ;)
Thanx and regards,
Edgar
On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:33 AM, Edgar Ra. Klein wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm having a problem w/ the Dictionary returned by the
DirectAction's form values. More precisely, I have a DirectAction
w/ some form values like:
...DirectAction.woa/wa/default?key1=value1key2=value2
The method request().formValues() returns an NSDictionary looking
like that:
{key1 = (value1); key2 = (value2); }
Unfortunately, the values are wrapped into ( ) and therefore I
cannot pass this dictionary to ask the
EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method for database entries.
Am I doing s.th. wrong or is there an easy way to convert the
wrapped values to unwrapped versions?
Thanx,
Edgar
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Re: DirectAction: NSDictionary of the form values
On 5-Jul-07, at 9:26 AM, Jerry W. Walker wrote:
Hi, Edgar,
The NSDictionary that you receive from request().formValues()
contains NSArray values for each key. WO must presume that the
values returned are arrays of values, because some form elements
can return an array of values and WO has no way of determining
whether a given form value should be an array or not, so it opts
for the more general case, presuming that they should all be
arrays, and returns single valued arrays for the cases that only a
single value is returned for a given key.
Given that information, you could use request().formValueKeys() to
get the list of keys present and iterate through all the keys using
request().formValueForKey(key) to unwrap the array around each
given value to build out your own NSMutableDictionary to pass to
the EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method. Such as:
...
NSArray myResults = EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues
(unwrappedFormValues());
...
private NSDictionary unwrappedFormValues()
{
NSArray keys = request().formValueKeys();
NSMutableDictionary results = new NSMutableDictionary(keys.count());
Enumeration e = keys.objectEnumerator();
while (e.hasMoreElements()) {
NSArray theValueArray = request().formValueForKey(key);
results.setObjectForKey(theValueArray.lastObject(), key);
}
return results.immutableClone();
}
Umm, request().formValueForKey(thekey); should return a single
value. Calling valueForKey on the dictionary or formValuesForKey on
the request will return an array.
--
;david
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site: http://codeferous.com
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Re: WOBuilder Replacement
I believe that Gino is on the right track here. Having heard Mike Schrag speak at WOWODC, I am sure that he and his associates could create a wonderful (no pun intended) new WOBuilder. But for reasons apart from the financing, such an effort seems ill-advised at this time. The main problem is the lack of a WO developer organization and lack a formal relationship with Apple Inc.Through a combination of genius, expertise, generosity and sweat equity, certain individuals, including Mike Schrag, have come into leadership roles on this list. But at this point that is all there is, a list, an ad hoc network of developers, and the ability to survey the opinions of this anarchic, amorphous group. There is no clear idea how many of us there are! Without a formal, dues-paying, voting-for-officers organization, the group does not have the clout that it could have. I am NOT advocating the creation of a formal organization here. Just pointing out the obvious -- there is not one. And so, for example, when creating a 'survey', you are never sure what the group is that your are surveying. And if WO developers were more formally organized then the organization as a whole could approach Apple with more coherence and clout. At some point, with organized WO developers having a collective voice and funds to send their leadership to meet with Apple, some type of written agreement might be drawn up between Apple and the developers, such that Apple itself would be intimately involved in guiding (and not inadvertently undermining) the creation of something like a new WOBuilder. Would one really want to invest 50K-100K in a product so intimately connected to WO, without some type of formal relationship with Apple? Please don't take my specific wording of the above points too seriously -- I am only trying to sketch, in a general sense, the dilemma that we developers are in. Mike W. Can't Apple be persuaded to contribute a small development team that worked with other WO Community members on this... That might bring costs down and offer a soft landing for those of us that like to use a GUI to components and interface design... Gino On 5 Jul 2007, at 14:03, Jeremy Matthews wrote: Although I understand the speed and the ease of Eclipses' Editor, I must admit that sometimes I miss WOBuilder... I'd gladly pay $500 for a full WOBuilder Replacement...with or without Entity Modeler bundled (Since Mike is working on that anyways...)...maybe 2 licenses. I might be able to swing more next year Now whether it integrates with Eclipse or not...well, I've seen some nice things in Eclipse...but I'm willing to hear it out. Thanks, j ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ginokris% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mmwarner% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DirectAction: NSDictionary of the form values
from your description, it look like 'formValues()' wrap all values in
an array (from the doc).
formValues()
Returns an NSDictionary containing all of the form data
with names for keys and NSArrays containing the value(s)
associated with those keys for values.
so to get value1, you would do :
String value1 = (String) request().formValues().valueForKey
(key1).objectAtIndex(0);
Or simply use 'formValueForKey':
String value1 = (String) request().formValueForKey(key1);
- jfv
Le 07-07-05 à 06:33, Edgar Ra. Klein a écrit :
Hi guys,
I'm having a problem w/ the Dictionary returned by the
DirectAction's form values. More precisely, I have a DirectAction
w/ some form values like:
...DirectAction.woa/wa/default?key1=value1key2=value2
The method request().formValues() returns an NSDictionary looking
like that:
{key1 = (value1); key2 = (value2); }
Unfortunately, the values are wrapped into ( ) and therefore I
cannot pass this dictionary to ask the
EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method for database entries.
Am I doing s.th. wrong or is there an easy way to convert the
wrapped values to unwrapped versions?
Thanx,
Edgar
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Not an Eclipse Plugin
I'd like to vote for this method, not all of us use Eclipse. We have 4 WO developers, and we use IntelliJ. On Jul 5, 2007, at 5:30 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: If we built a WOBuilder, we would really only build one that I would use, too, so it has to not suck (this quite possibly means such an app is not an Eclipse plugin, but just has an eclipse plugin integration layer along the lines of how WOB + PB/Xc work). ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DirectAction: NSDictionary of the form values
Hi, David,
On Jul 5, 2007, at 9:36 AM, David LeBer wrote:
On 5-Jul-07, at 9:26 AM, Jerry W. Walker wrote:
Hi, Edgar,
The NSDictionary that you receive from request().formValues()
contains NSArray values for each key. WO must presume that the
values returned are arrays of values, because some form elements
can return an array of values and WO has no way of determining
whether a given form value should be an array or not, so it opts
for the more general case, presuming that they should all be
arrays, and returns single valued arrays for the cases that only a
single value is returned for a given key.
Given that information, you could use request().formValueKeys() to
get the list of keys present and iterate through all the keys
using request().formValueForKey(key) to unwrap the array around
each given value to build out your own NSMutableDictionary to pass
to the EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues method. Such as:
...
NSArray myResults = EOUtilities.objectsMatchingValues
(unwrappedFormValues());
...
private NSDictionary unwrappedFormValues()
{
NSArray keys = request().formValueKeys();
NSMutableDictionary results = new NSMutableDictionary(keys.count());
Enumeration e = keys.objectEnumerator();
while (e.hasMoreElements()) {
NSArray theValueArray = request().formValueForKey(key);
results.setObjectForKey(theValueArray.lastObject(), key);
}
return results.immutableClone();
}
Umm, request().formValueForKey(thekey); should return a single
value. Calling valueForKey on the dictionary or formValuesForKey on
the request will return an array.
--
;david
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site: http://codeferous.com
blog: http://davidleber.net
profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber
--
Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group:
http://tacow.org
Yup, you're right.
I wrote the routine quickly this morning knowing that fact, but I had
so focused on why WO returns arrays for each of the values, that I
automatically and erroneously extracted the value from the
nonexistent array. Since I wrote the routine with Mail.app as my
editor, it didn't catch that. :-)
More coffee!
Regards,
Jerry
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Re: checking webobject's version
On 05.07.2007, at 09:52, Angelo Chen wrote: I just installed the weobjects come with June 2007's developer DVD, but any way to check what's the version of this WebObjects? cat /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaWebObjects.framework/Resources/ version.plist That does the trick on Tiger and WO 5.3.3. Don't know about the OpenBase database. cug ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting the database values of an object without changing the one in the current editing context
On Jul 5, 2007, at 3:28 AM, WO Dev wrote: Hi, I'm not sure my subject is understandable, anyway. Assuming I have an object x, I'm manipulating it in an editing context. At a certain point I need to get the original object (the one from the database) but without changing anything to the one in my editing context. How could I do that? I need the object in its globality, so if I can get the object directly and not a dictionary of its values it's better:) You can answer bla bla project wonder:) but please point me to the correct method as I didn't find it for now;) What, exactly, is it that you need? You can't have two different versions of the same EO in the same EOF stack. Avoiding that is one of the central objectives of EOF. Do you need it as an object or just as a dictionary of values. If you need it as an EO, you can't have it. If you need just a dictionary of values, then which dictionary? The values the last time that EOF fetched it from the database (or successfully saved it to the database): NSDictionary valuesAsLastFetchedFromTheDatabase = eo.editingContext ().committedSnapshotForObject(eo); If you need a dictionary of the current values in the database, use EOUtilities.qualifierForEnterpriseObject and a fetch spec set for raw rows. Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
On 05/07/2007, at 10:30 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: Those estimates were all for starting from scratch, which I believe is what should be done (Apple will not release the source to the original, anyway -- I've brought it up several times over the last couple years). To do a WOBuilder properly, it needs to be rethought. WOBuilder now is built like IB, but that's really not exactly right, because in a proper system, you're dealing almost entirely in custom components and you can only really render custom components with live-like data (or in a live environment). I have some ideas for this, but a lot of it just comes down to interface experimentation to see what works and what doesn't. If we built a WOBuilder, we would really only build one that I would use, too, so it has to not suck (this quite possibly means such an app is not an Eclipse plugin, but just has an eclipse plugin integration layer along the lines of how WOB + PB/Xc work). I think about this app all the time, but I just have not yet seen the economics. I asked at WWDC who would pay real money (granted, an unspecified amount) for a WOBuilder and VERY few hands went up in a pretty large room of WO developers. I'm with Jerry ... I am just not convinced that there would be enough licenses sold to justify such an effort. Who knows .. Maybe I'm wrong. Speak up with #'s and prove me wrong. Email me directly if you're not comfortable posting on the list and I'll post some aggregates. Like I said, I think about this all the time, but I have to be able to go to my boss (who graciously already lets me donate huge numbers of man-hours to this stuff as it stands) with some sort of justification for putting people on a project like this for several months. ... and don't forget that this would need to be an ongoing project with ongoing improvements (rather than getting to the point of standing still, like the old tools, after the initial features are in place). That's a serious business decision to make. Considering that Apple used to charge US$699, or whatever it was, for the whole set, including the frameworks - I think you'd need to be committed to keeping up with or ahead of the game in order to ensure continued revenue. It'd need to be compelling enough to make enough people cough up the funds time and time again. with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
On Jul 5, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Lachlan Deck wrote: On 05/07/2007, at 10:30 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: Those estimates were all for starting from scratch, which I believe is what should be done (Apple will not release the source to the original, anyway -- I've brought it up several times over the last couple years). To do a WOBuilder properly, it needs to be rethought. WOBuilder now is built like IB, but that's really not exactly right, because in a proper system, you're dealing almost entirely in custom components and you can only really render custom components with live-like data (or in a live environment). I have some ideas for this, but a lot of it just comes down to interface experimentation to see what works and what doesn't. If we built a WOBuilder, we would really only build one that I would use, too, so it has to not suck (this quite possibly means such an app is not an Eclipse plugin, but just has an eclipse plugin integration layer along the lines of how WOB + PB/ Xc work). I think about this app all the time, but I just have not yet seen the economics. I asked at WWDC who would pay real money (granted, an unspecified amount) for a WOBuilder and VERY few hands went up in a pretty large room of WO developers. I'm with Jerry ... I am just not convinced that there would be enough licenses sold to justify such an effort. Who knows .. Maybe I'm wrong. Speak up with #'s and prove me wrong. Email me directly if you're not comfortable posting on the list and I'll post some aggregates. Like I said, I think about this all the time, but I have to be able to go to my boss (who graciously already lets me donate huge numbers of man-hours to this stuff as it stands) with some sort of justification for putting people on a project like this for several months. ... and don't forget that this would need to be an ongoing project with ongoing improvements (rather than getting to the point of standing still, like the old tools, after the initial features are in place). That's a serious business decision to make. Considering that Apple used to charge US$699, or whatever it was, for the whole set, including the frameworks - I think you'd need to be committed to keeping up with or ahead of the game in order to ensure continued revenue. It'd need to be compelling enough to make enough people cough up the funds time and time again. There are a lot of good business reasons to _not_ develop this. I notice that everyone wants Mike to do it. I don't see anyone who thinks it is such a good idea that their company should do it. :-) Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: checking webobject's version
On Jul 05, 2007, at 17:52, Angelo Chen wrote: Hi, I just installed the weobjects come with June 2007's developer DVD, but any way to check what's the version of this WebObjects? Also I do see /application/Openbase folder, but can't create any new database, any way to use Openbase? Thanks. You need the OpenBase Manager app, from the Applications/OpenBase/ folder, to manage your databases. Assuming all is installed correctly, it is straightforward and easy. A.C. 無限電郵儲存量，立即使用Yahoo! Mail，你就無 需再擔心收件箱儲存空間會否過量! ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/flor385% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: checking webobject's version
Use the following for WebObjects version: defaults read /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaWebObjects.framework/Resources/Info CFBundleShortVersionString For Openbase I am not so sure. On 7/5/07, Florijan Stamenkovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 05, 2007, at 17:52, Angelo Chen wrote: Hi, I just installed the weobjects come with June 2007's developer DVD, but any way to check what's the version of this WebObjects? Also I do see /application/Openbase folder, but can't create any new database, any way to use Openbase? Thanks. You need the OpenBase Manager app, from the Applications/OpenBase/ folder, to manage your databases. Assuming all is installed correctly, it is straightforward and easy. A.C. 無限電郵儲存量，立即使用Yahoo! Mail，你就無 需再擔心收件箱儲存空間會否過量! ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/flor385% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/tanmoy.roy%40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Best, Tanmoy ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
There are a lot of good business reasons to _not_ develop this. I notice that everyone wants Mike to do it. I don't see anyone who thinks it is such a good idea that their company should do it. :-) Chuck Wise Chuck! I also would like someone to develop a Cocoa EOF replacement, and pay her $500... Dino ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting the database values of an object without changing the one in the current editing context
Hello Ken, Xavier, EOF does this exact thing when it's deciding what has changed in your object, and what updates it needs to perform. It does this by using the snapshot, which is how I'd recommend you doing this as well. It would help if you clued us in to *why* you need it - so that answers could be crafted to your particular usage. Actually I need it to save the previous object as a string (in fact an xml representation). So my process is to manipulate an object, and when I submit the changes, just before saveChanges, I'm tracking who did this, when, and the xml representation. That's why I'd like to get the database state of the object when I do te tracking part. Xavier Ken On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:28 AM, WO Dev wrote: Hi, I'm not sure my subject is understandable, anyway. Assuming I have an object x, I'm manipulating it in an editing context. At a certain point I need to get the original object (the one from the database) but without changing anything to the one in my editing context. How could I do that? I need the object in its globality, so if I can get the object directly and not a dictionary of its values it's better:) You can answer bla bla project wonder:) but please point me to the correct method as I didn't find it for now;) Thanks, Xavier ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists% 40anderhome.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
On Jul 5, 2007, at 3:32 PM, Ricardo Strausz wrote: There are a lot of good business reasons to _not_ develop this. I notice that everyone wants Mike to do it. I don't see anyone who thinks it is such a good idea that their company should do it. :-) Chuck Wise Chuck! I also would like someone to develop a Cocoa EOF replacement, and pay her $500... Dino I predict that, unless there is a financial reward of some kind, that WOLips development will stagnate and/or come to a complete halt within the next 18 months if not sooner. And yes, that is a challenge to the developers to hopefully prove me wrong. This has always been the problem and always will be the problem is that the OpenSource community has trained people to expect free software to the point were the users actually refuse to pay for it no matter how good it is. Usually people try to get their employers to buy it for them (which is were I get 99% of my software) but if they have to shell out the money themselves then they won't do it. They'd rather steal it first. But from a developer's point of view, it's really hard to eat when you're not making any money. As a result the OpenSource developers tend to loose their motivation to continue development of their projects. Instead they tend to go off and focus their energies on projects that do make them money. The end result is that OpenSource software, like WOLips, tend to reach what I call the Good Enough For Free Stage and then the developers abandon it. We've seen this in the Linux community for a number of years now. Things are still progressing but VERY SLOWLY. Meanwhile SourceForge is littered with the bones of abandoned OpenSource projects that developers have lost interest in. -- Galen Rhodes [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. -- Robert Heinlein -- ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
On Jul 5, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Galen Rhodes wrote: I predict that, unless there is a financial reward of some kind, that WOLips development will stagnate and/or come to a complete halt within the next 18 months if not sooner. And yes, that is a challenge to the developers to hopefully prove me wrong. I doubt that very much. The development to date has been developers building what _they_ personally need to get their job done. Most of what is in Entity Modeler and WOComponent Editor are things that Mike need to do his job more efficiently. He, and mDimension, were kind enough to donate the results. As long as we WO developers have unmet needs, development will continue. It may happen in fits and bursts as our needs dictate, but it will happen. It will only stagnate if all of our needs are met (or if those with needs are too damn lazy to do anything about them). And in that case, it will be more of stable than stagnant. This has always been the problem and always will be the problem is that the OpenSource community has trained people to expect free software to the point were the users actually refuse to pay for it no matter how good it is. Usually people try to get their employers to buy it for them (which is were I get 99% of my software) but if they have to shell out the money themselves then they won't do it. They'd rather steal it first. Sadly, I must agree with this. But from a developer's point of view, it's really hard to eat when you're not making any money. As a result the OpenSource developers tend to loose their motivation to continue development of their projects. Instead they tend to go off and focus their energies on projects that do make them money. Or make their work on projects that make money more efficient. Don't forget that. Money does not need to be made directly. And this is the primary reason, IMHO, why WOComponent Editor is not WYSIWYG. A developer set out to make something that would be very efficient to use while requiring less effort than it would save. I think that Mike has succeeded admirably in this. While it is not flashy, it is far more productive for me than WOBuilder ever was and I am FAR happier using it than I was using WOBuilder. Too many people seem to be more concerned with which font is used or IDE layout, or cute drag and drop tricks than they are with actual, real life productivity. OK, enough of that rant... The end result is that OpenSource software, like WOLips, tend to reach what I call the Good Enough For Free Stage and then the developers abandon it. We've seen this in the Linux community for a number of years now. Things are still progressing but VERY SLOWLY. Meanwhile SourceForge is littered with the bones of abandoned OpenSource projects that developers have lost interest in. Which to me means they were finished or poorly thought out and required more effort than they were going to save. Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
On Jul 5, 2007, at 5:30 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I think about this app all the time, but I just have not yet seen the economics. I asked at WWDC who would pay real money (granted, an unspecified amount) for a WOBuilder and VERY few hands went up in a pretty large room of WO developers. I don't feel the need for a WOBuilder replacement myself, so I didn't raise my hand, and I probably answered no to that question in Pascal's survey. But now that I've given it some thought I would pitch in to the effort anyway, for two reasons: 1. If you built it, it would be cool and useful 2. It's existence would help grow the community (some people are very visual and they are never going to be comfortable with the current tools) Maybe I'm the only one, but if not, hopefully Pascal's second survey will show some increased interest. I also think the suggestion of collecting the money upfront, to be returned if the target amount isn't reached, is a good one. janine ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: * SNIP * I doubt that very much. The development to date has been developers building what _they_ personally need to get their job done. Most of what is in Entity Modeler and WOComponent Editor are things that Mike need to do his job more efficiently. He, and mDimension, were kind enough to donate the results. As long as we WO developers have unmet needs, development will continue. It may happen in fits and bursts as our needs dictate, but it will happen. It will only stagnate if all of our needs are met (or if those with needs are too damn lazy to do anything about them). And in that case, it will be more of stable than stagnant. * SNIP * Or make their work on projects that make money more efficient. Don't forget that. Money does not need to be made directly. And this is the primary reason, IMHO, why WOComponent Editor is not WYSIWYG. A developer set out to make something that would be very efficient to use while requiring less effort than it would save. I think that Mike has succeeded admirably in this. While it is not flashy, it is far more productive for me than WOBuilder ever was and I am FAR happier using it than I was using WOBuilder. Too many people seem to be more concerned with which font is used or IDE layout, or cute drag and drop tricks than they are with actual, real life productivity. OK, enough of that rant... Your two statements really made my point for me. Your needs are not the same as someone else's needs. This is probably the #1 problem with the OpenSource community is that they develop software for themselves and not others. They develop software to meet their needs and not anyone else's needs. Which I think is probably why they never make any money off of their labors. And I personally LOVE your extremely insulting line of or if those with needs are too damn lazy to do anything about them. Wow! I mean WOW! Arrogance is always my favorite sin! Remember the old saying, Pride goeth before the fall? So what you're saying is that I'm a lazy bastard if I don't have time to develop the tools myself? WOW! That attitude is exactly what is going to kill WO off for good. I've said it before, you develop a WYSIWYG replacement for WOBuilder and EOModeler I'll pay upwards of $500 for them. That's not a small amount of money! But you know what? I'll save three times that much in a year over having to use the current WOLips tools! You may not desire WYSIWYG because it slows _YOU_ down. But there may be others that truly feel that WYSIWYG enhances _THEIR_ productivity. And your refusal to accept that is EXACTLY what is wrong with OpenSource projects. The developers adopt a very arrogant view that what's good for them is good for everyone. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Galen, Take some slow deep breaths before your head explodes. Here's the beauty of an open source project for you: you don't have to use it. If you think it isn't meeting your needs, run along and pay for something that will. If wonder dies, it dies, but right now a lot of people see it as very useful and beneficial, even if you don't. And if you don't, that's totally fine. If you don't see it as beneficial, don't use it. It's hard to feel ripped off if a volunteer open-source community creates something that you don't like, and you shouldn't get super angry if they don't take the project (or, especially, some small aspect of the project) in the direction you want it to go in. Mark On Jul 5, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Galen Rhodes wrote: On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: * SNIP * I doubt that very much. The development to date has been developers building what _they_ personally need to get their job done. Most of what is in Entity Modeler and WOComponent Editor are things that Mike need to do his job more efficiently. He, and mDimension, were kind enough to donate the results. As long as we WO developers have unmet needs, development will continue. It may happen in fits and bursts as our needs dictate, but it will happen. It will only stagnate if all of our needs are met (or if those with needs are too damn lazy to do anything about them). And in that case, it will be more of stable than stagnant. * SNIP * Or make their work on projects that make money more efficient. Don't forget that. Money does not need to be made directly. And this is the primary reason, IMHO, why WOComponent Editor is not WYSIWYG. A developer set out to make something that would be very efficient to use while requiring less effort than it would save. I think that Mike has succeeded admirably in this. While it is not flashy, it is far more productive for me than WOBuilder ever was and I am FAR happier using it than I was using WOBuilder. Too many people seem to be more concerned with which font is used or IDE layout, or cute drag and drop tricks than they are with actual, real life productivity. OK, enough of that rant... Your two statements really made my point for me. Your needs are not the same as someone else's needs. This is probably the #1 problem with the OpenSource community is that they develop software for themselves and not others. They develop software to meet their needs and not anyone else's needs. Which I think is probably why they never make any money off of their labors. And I personally LOVE your extremely insulting line of or if those with needs are too damn lazy to do anything about them. Wow! I mean WOW! Arrogance is always my favorite sin! Remember the old saying, Pride goeth before the fall? So what you're saying is that I'm a lazy bastard if I don't have time to develop the tools myself? WOW! That attitude is exactly what is going to kill WO off for good. I've said it before, you develop a WYSIWYG replacement for WOBuilder and EOModeler I'll pay upwards of $500 for them. That's not a small amount of money! But you know what? I'll save three times that much in a year over having to use the current WOLips tools! You may not desire WYSIWYG because it slows _YOU_ down. But there may be others that truly feel that WYSIWYG enhances _THEIR_ productivity. And your refusal to accept that is EXACTLY what is wrong with OpenSource projects. The developers adopt a very arrogant view that what's good for them is good for everyone. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mark% 40bluecollarsoftware.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Galen, Maybe you've had some bad experiences with open source projects, but in my view, the WO open source world has been growing and growing for many many years. Maybe it's because it's built around a commercial product that has extremely long legs... I don't know, but I don't think you could keep it down if you tried! Ken On Jul 5, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Galen Rhodes wrote: On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: * SNIP * I doubt that very much. The development to date has been developers building what _they_ personally need to get their job done. Most of what is in Entity Modeler and WOComponent Editor are things that Mike need to do his job more efficiently. He, and mDimension, were kind enough to donate the results. As long as we WO developers have unmet needs, development will continue. It may happen in fits and bursts as our needs dictate, but it will happen. It will only stagnate if all of our needs are met (or if those with needs are too damn lazy to do anything about them). And in that case, it will be more of stable than stagnant. * SNIP * Or make their work on projects that make money more efficient. Don't forget that. Money does not need to be made directly. And this is the primary reason, IMHO, why WOComponent Editor is not WYSIWYG. A developer set out to make something that would be very efficient to use while requiring less effort than it would save. I think that Mike has succeeded admirably in this. While it is not flashy, it is far more productive for me than WOBuilder ever was and I am FAR happier using it than I was using WOBuilder. Too many people seem to be more concerned with which font is used or IDE layout, or cute drag and drop tricks than they are with actual, real life productivity. OK, enough of that rant... Your two statements really made my point for me. Your needs are not the same as someone else's needs. This is probably the #1 problem with the OpenSource community is that they develop software for themselves and not others. They develop software to meet their needs and not anyone else's needs. Which I think is probably why they never make any money off of their labors. And I personally LOVE your extremely insulting line of or if those with needs are too damn lazy to do anything about them. Wow! I mean WOW! Arrogance is always my favorite sin! Remember the old saying, Pride goeth before the fall? So what you're saying is that I'm a lazy bastard if I don't have time to develop the tools myself? WOW! That attitude is exactly what is going to kill WO off for good. I've said it before, you develop a WYSIWYG replacement for WOBuilder and EOModeler I'll pay upwards of $500 for them. That's not a small amount of money! But you know what? I'll save three times that much in a year over having to use the current WOLips tools! You may not desire WYSIWYG because it slows _YOU_ down. But there may be others that truly feel that WYSIWYG enhances _THEIR_ productivity. And your refusal to accept that is EXACTLY what is wrong with OpenSource projects. The developers adopt a very arrogant view that what's good for them is good for everyone. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists% 40anderhome.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HTTP/1.1 and Chunked transfers
Hi there,
does anyone have any experience with receiving chunked data (or
perhaps sending chunked requests specifying the content-length with
Axis)?
I getting a 411 Length Required response in the client... so I'm
trying to ascertain whether there's some commons-httpclient setting
to have that generated when creating the requests (on the client
side) or if something else's afoot.
Any ideas?
i.e., in the client application there's something like this:
public MainServiceSoapBindingStub mainStub() {
if ( _stub == null ) {
MainService_ServiceLocator serviceLocator;
serviceLocator = new MainService_ServiceLocator();
this._stub = (MainServiceSoapBindingStub)
serviceLocator.getMainService();
...
if ( enable compression condition ) {
Map httpSettings;
// Set property to compress requests
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.MC_GZIP_REQUEST,
Boolean.TRUE);
// Tell the server it can compress responses
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.MC_ACCEPT_GZIP,
Boolean.TRUE);
// enable chunking and http 1.1
httpSettings = new Hashtable();
httpSettings.put(MessageContext.HTTP_TRANSPORT_VERSION,
HTTPConstants.HEADER_PROTOCOL_V11);
httpSettings.put(HTTPConstants.HEADER_TRANSFER_ENCODING_CHUNKED,
Boolean.TRUE);
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.REQUEST_HEADERS,
httpSettings);
}
}
}
And the stack trace below when calling one of the webservice methods.
with regards,
--
Lachlan Deck
[java] AxisFault
[java] faultCode: {http://xml.apache.org/axis/}HTTP
[java] faultSubcode:
[java] faultString: (411)Length Required
[java] faultActor:
[java] faultNode:
[java] faultDetail:
[java] {}:return code: 411
[java] lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC quot;-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//
ENquot;gt;
[java] lt;HTMLgt;lt;HEADgt;
[java] lt;TITLEgt;411 Length Requiredlt;/TITLEgt;
[java] lt;/HEADgt;lt;BODYgt;
[java] lt;H1gt;Length Requiredlt;/H1gt;
[java] A request of the requested method POST requires a valid
Content-length.lt;Pgt;
[java] chunked Transfer-Encoding forbidden: /cgi-bin/WebObjects/
WillowServices.woa/-55443/ws/MainServicelt;Pgt;
[java] lt;HRgt;
[java] lt;ADDRESSgt;Apache/1.3.33 Server at lds-mac.local
Port 80lt;/ADDRESSgt;
[java] lt;/BODYgt;lt;/HTMLgt;
[java]
[java] {http://xml.apache.org/axis/}HttpErrorCode:411
[java]
[java] (411)Length Required
[java] at
org.apache.axis.transport.http.CommonsHTTPSender.invoke
(CommonsHTTPSender.java:218)
[java] at
org.apache.axis.strategies.InvocationStrategy.visit
(InvocationStrategy.java:32)
[java] at org.apache.axis.SimpleChain.doVisiting
(SimpleChain.java:118)
[java] at org.apache.axis.SimpleChain.invoke
(SimpleChain.java:83)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.AxisClient.invoke
(AxisClient.java:165)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invokeEngine
(Call.java:2784)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2767)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2443)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2366)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:1812)
[java] at
my.client.app.ws.stubs.MainServiceSoapBindingStub.blahBlah
(MainServiceSoapBindingStub.java:874)
[java] ..
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Re: HTTP/1.1 and Chunked transfers
Post this on the Wonder list and Anjo can probably tell you more ...
Wonder has a replacement for WOHttpIO where Anjo implemented support
for chunked data.
/**
* Bugfix class that adds support for chunked content, which a HTTP
1.0 client MUST
* support. This is escpecially important for Axis clients 1.1.
br /
* If this class is going to be used, you need to make sure that it
comes before
* JavaWebObjects in the classpath.
*
* @author ak
*/
ms
On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:51 PM, Lachlan Deck wrote:
Hi there,
does anyone have any experience with receiving chunked data (or
perhaps sending chunked requests specifying the content-length with
Axis)?
I getting a 411 Length Required response in the client... so I'm
trying to ascertain whether there's some commons-httpclient setting
to have that generated when creating the requests (on the client
side) or if something else's afoot.
Any ideas?
i.e., in the client application there's something like this:
public MainServiceSoapBindingStub mainStub() {
if ( _stub == null ) {
MainService_ServiceLocator serviceLocator;
serviceLocator = new MainService_ServiceLocator();
this._stub = (MainServiceSoapBindingStub)
serviceLocator.getMainService();
...
if ( enable compression condition ) {
Map httpSettings;
// Set property to compress requests
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.MC_GZIP_REQUEST,
Boolean.TRUE);
// Tell the server it can compress responses
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.MC_ACCEPT_GZIP,
Boolean.TRUE);
// enable chunking and http 1.1
httpSettings = new Hashtable();
httpSettings.put(MessageContext.HTTP_TRANSPORT_VERSION,
HTTPConstants.HEADER_PROTOCOL_V11);
httpSettings.put(HTTPConstants.HEADER_TRANSFER_ENCODING_CHUNKED,
Boolean.TRUE);
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.REQUEST_HEADERS,
httpSettings);
}
}
}
And the stack trace below when calling one of the webservice methods.
with regards,
--
Lachlan Deck
[java] AxisFault
[java] faultCode: {http://xml.apache.org/axis/}HTTP
[java] faultSubcode:
[java] faultString: (411)Length Required
[java] faultActor:
[java] faultNode:
[java] faultDetail:
[java] {}:return code: 411
[java] lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC quot;-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//
ENquot;gt;
[java] lt;HTMLgt;lt;HEADgt;
[java] lt;TITLEgt;411 Length Requiredlt;/TITLEgt;
[java] lt;/HEADgt;lt;BODYgt;
[java] lt;H1gt;Length Requiredlt;/H1gt;
[java] A request of the requested method POST requires a valid
Content-length.lt;Pgt;
[java] chunked Transfer-Encoding forbidden: /cgi-bin/
WebObjects/WillowServices.woa/-55443/ws/MainServicelt;Pgt;
[java] lt;HRgt;
[java] lt;ADDRESSgt;Apache/1.3.33 Server at lds-mac.local
Port 80lt;/ADDRESSgt;
[java] lt;/BODYgt;lt;/HTMLgt;
[java]
[java] {http://xml.apache.org/axis/}HttpErrorCode:411
[java]
[java] (411)Length Required
[java] at
org.apache.axis.transport.http.CommonsHTTPSender.invoke
(CommonsHTTPSender.java:218)
[java] at
org.apache.axis.strategies.InvocationStrategy.visit
(InvocationStrategy.java:32)
[java] at org.apache.axis.SimpleChain.doVisiting
(SimpleChain.java:118)
[java] at org.apache.axis.SimpleChain.invoke
(SimpleChain.java:83)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.AxisClient.invoke
(AxisClient.java:165)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invokeEngine
(Call.java:2784)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2767)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2443)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2366)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:1812)
[java] at
my.client.app.ws.stubs.MainServiceSoapBindingStub.blahBlah
(MainServiceSoapBindingStub.java:874)
[java] ..
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Re: Get server host from request or url
Hello Benoit,
How are you handling sessions? When the Flash client requests a web
service, what URL does it use?
Chuck
On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:56 AM, Benoit Cantin wrote:
Dear list,
I would like to establish a connexion between a webobjects server
and a flash client.
To do so, I have to transfer the server's FQDN, or the server's IP
adress to the flash client as a flash variable passed to the swf.
The flash client, then, communicate through web services using this
variable.
The problem is that it seems that when the server return its FQDN
and if a try to contact the server through it's IP adress without
specifying the port on which my application instance run, then, I
just can't get my web services.
If I force the server to return it's IP, it just work. But if I try
to contact the server through it FQDN, it fails.
Here is the method involved on the server in returning the host name.
public String serverNameFromRequest(WORequest request) {
String s = request.headerForKey(x-webobjects-server-name);
if (s == null) {
s = request.headerForKey(server_name);
}
if (s == null) {
s = request.headerForKey(host);
}
if (s == null) {
s = request._originatingAddress().getHostAddress();
}
if (s == null) {
s = WOApplication.application().host();
}
return s;
Does anybody ever have this problem ? Any help is appreciated.
Thank you.
--
Benoit Cantin
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--
Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific
problems.
http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects
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Get server host from request or url
Dear list,
I would like to establish a connexion between a webobjects server and a
flash client.
To do so, I have to transfer the server's FQDN, or the server's IP
adress to the flash client as a flash variable passed to the swf.
The flash client, then, communicate through web services using this
variable.
The problem is that it seems that when the server return its FQDN and
if a try to contact the server through it's IP adress without specifying
the port on which my application instance run, then, I just can't get my
web services.
If I force the server to return it's IP, it just work. But if I try to
contact the server through it FQDN, it fails.
Here is the method involved on the server in returning the host name.
public String serverNameFromRequest(WORequest request) {
String s = request.headerForKey(x-webobjects-server-name);
if (s == null) {
s = request.headerForKey(server_name);
}
if (s == null) {
s = request.headerForKey(host);
}
if (s == null) {
s = request._originatingAddress().getHostAddress();
}
if (s == null) {
s = WOApplication.application().host();
}
return s;
Does anybody ever have this problem ? Any help is appreciated.
Thank you.
--
Benoit Cantin
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Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Sorry, this has accumulted inside of me for months, listening to the eclipse evangelism..., but mostly to xcode/wobuilder tools being disparaged and ridiculed, along with those who prefer them ... On 5-Jul-07, at 16:36 , Chuck Hill wrote: While it is not flashy, it is far more productive for me than WOBuilder ever was and I am FAR happier using it than I was using WOBuilder. I'm thrilled for you. Too many people seem to be more concerned with which font is used or IDE layout, or cute drag and drop tricks than they are with actual, real life productivity. Every time I hear this argument, it brings me back to the 80's when some people argued that Emacs was the end all tool, that they were not slowed down by taking their hands off the keyboard to get to the mouse and that this graphical user stuff was just for wimps. I use a wide variety of tools, languages and methods to do my work. I have to write assembler, C, Obj-C, Java, shell scripts ... Doing all of my work with only a single tool would be gauche and unproductive. Productivity for some means thinking textually and with a keyboard, for others it means thinking graphically and with a mouse. Three things should motivate a WOBuilder replacement: 1) Its absence denatures WebObjects, which was initially marketed as a rapid and relatively easy way to build webapps. Sure, eventually, you had to write more code and get down into the technology, but you could get simple apps with good results rather easily. It made the entry easier and certainly attracted new developers to join. While I agree wolips's component editor is good, the overall suite will not attract any significant numbers of new developers. Eclipse OpenSource connection's will not expose WebObjects to a new receptive crowd (as they will also stick with other opensourced solutions like Rails/ Hibernate/Cayenne/Tapestry or whatever). Meanwhile, the abandon of XCode/WoBuilder will mean the abandon of Apple's crowd who like simple/graphical/elegant tools. Over time, I'm convinced it spells the drift of WO to insignificance. 2) For full time developer, proficiency with the tool can be developed with time and productivity then ensues. In those scenarios, Eclipse might yield some positive return on investment to learn/ master it. But what about those who do not developpe WO apps full time ? I have to learn those tools just a few hours at a time. While I may intensely work on a project for a while, I may have to switch to writing assembler to boot a ARM CPU and implement a real-time app and then to spend weeks designing/building/testing optical/mechanical/ electronics systems. Next, I may have to go back and revisit a tools I've developed with WO to add some feature we need ! Drop back into eclipse, I Think not. Startup WOBuidler, makes more sense. I'll be up an running much faster. I doubt I'm the only one who doing this part time, and for us, WOBuilder is the only thing that makes sense. 3) I also develop apps in Cocoa, and the combination of XCode/ Interface Builder/Cocoa/Bindings just rocks! It allows to build great tools quickly (part-time) faster than anything else ( even from my Windows collegues) I do not understand why a new generation of WOBuilder could not do the same for WebObjects. I always expected that the technologies were converging to allow this, Webkit, Core Data, Cocoa ... It would help promote WebOjects and make it accessible to more developers, including novice, and part-time. Apple should care very much about reason 1 Developers like myself should care about 2. Everybody should care about 3 rant of my own To those who think WO will not go away because it's too significant a framework and because Apple uses it, think MacApp... A very sophisticated Application framework that died from neglect and eventually disappeared despite Apple using it for many of its own apps. A GUI editor (forgot the name) was also part of the toolchain and it too was eventually neglected by Apple. Faced with the obsolescence of the tool, a third party developed from scratch a better replacement and sold it (named AdLib). I do not know if it was profitable, but every body I knew switched to it for the few bug fixes and the few new features it offered. Apple eventually bought the application and distributed it... Lastly, everybody is free to do what they want and I certainly agree the we do not have any right to expect others to do work freely for any of us. However I do not understand why there has to be a business case for developing a WOBuilder replacement ? that it must be absolutely profitable ? I'm curious to see the numbers that supported the development of WOLips, Project Wonder ??? Should I assume that these were profitable endeavors ! To me, they certainly seem equally large/serious development efforts, probably even more than a WOBuilder replacement. If
Let's cool down ! Was : WOBuilder Replacement
Ok people, let's cool down a bit. It's not easy with that big Sun over us, but please wait until I get my WOLips survey up and running. This way, everyone will be able to voice their opinion in a structured way :-) It should be up before tomorrow night. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Really tired of what I see a pointless conversation, but there are a couple of things I feel a need to address. On Jul 5, 2007, at 5:22 PM, Louis Demers wrote: To those who think WO will not go away because it's too significant a framework and because Apple uses it, think MacApp... A very sophisticated Application framework that died from neglect and eventually disappeared despite Apple using it for many of its own apps. A GUI editor (forgot the name) was also part of the toolchain and it too was eventually neglected by Apple. Faced with the obsolescence of the tool, a third party developed from scratch a better replacement and sold it (named AdLib). I do not know if it was profitable, but every body I knew switched to it for the few bug fixes and the few new features it offered. Apple eventually bought the application and distributed it... Like everything, it will survive on its own merit, or not. When Apple finds something better to run iTunes etc. on, they will drop it. When I find something that let's me develop more functionality, faster then I will drop it. I hope I am not using this same technology for the next twenty years. I do not understand why there has to be a business case for developing a WOBuilder replacement ? that it must be absolutely profitable ? I'm curious to see the numbers that supported the development of WOLips, Project Wonder ??? Should I assume that these were profitable endeavors ! To me, they certainly seem equally large/serious development efforts, probably even more than a WOBuilder replacement. But you are comparing apples and oranges there. Look at the history. These projects were not developed, they _grew_. Wonder was just a couple of frameworks at first and in Objective-C. As developers have needed functionality over the years they created it for themselves and generously donated it to all in the form of a contribution to Wonder. The same goes for WOLips. Andrus Adamchik started the project around 2001 as a set of tools to build WebObjects projects independent from platform and IDE based on Apache Ant technology. It was all command line scripts then. But it worked and it was good enough to get people going on it. Other people wanted more and so they built it. Emily Bache and Ulrich Koester helped to flesh out project and add core Ant tasks in the early years. Ulrich started the WOLips Eclipse plugin which has evolved into what you now see. Harald Niesche developed the incremental builder which has become the core of WOLips. It really depends on how those who would developed it want to be rewarded for their effort/contribution. It does not have to be free, neither does it have to make commercial sense. What I see is this: The tools we have are the product of people who made them for themselves, over a long period of time, but were gracious enough to share them. This WOBuilder replacement seems different. Those who want this seem unwilling or unable to make it. Which is part of the reason that I think it has to be a commercial effort. The other part is that it needs to be pretty complete when released otherwise it will be worse than none at all. Unlike the early versions of what we now call WOLips, the shell of a GUI editor is going to be pretty useless. So an incremental build out over years does not seem feasible to me. Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO used internally by Apple, a bad thing?
On Jul 5, 2007, at 12:32 AM, Jean Pierre Malrieu wrote: This post ought to be sent to WO-talk, but I can't post there right now. A lot of people say that because Apple is using WO internally, we need not worry about WO death. I agree with that, but I am starting to wonder whether Apple using WO is a good thing for WO... If Apple had chosen another technology for iTunes store, the Apple Store and .mac, WO would no longer be a matter of competitive advantage for Apple and therefore, Apple could open source it. This is not true. The reason that Apple cannot open source WO has a lot more to do with the intellectual property in WebObjects. Unfortunately, how IP is interpreted in the US leads to some really screwed up situations, and Apple has a lot of lawyers. WO would have evolved much faster if Apple was not using it. What is the reason for sticking with apache 1.3 and java 1.4 for so long if not Apple internal apps? Isn't WO evolving slowly because Apple needs to keep it compatible with old code it uses in its internal applications, and old deployment platforms? No, this is not the reason. This would be more sensible than the real reasons. What prevent Apple from publishing clear roadmaps for WO? The fact that the future of the product depends on Apple's internal needs, which can vary a lot, and that Apple does not want to disclose. Apple just does not do roadmaps. They are a consumer company, and that is the way that they are. The fact that it is not sensible for this case is irrelevant. Overall, I am not sure that Apple using WO internally is a very good thing for WO. Whether it is a good thing for WO or not is also irrelevant. - ray ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Lastly, everybody is free to do what they want and I certainly agree the we do not have any right to expect others to do work freely for any of us. However I do not understand why there has to be a business case for developing a WOBuilder replacement ? that it must be absolutely profitable ? I'm curious to see the numbers that supported the development of WOLips, Project Wonder ??? Should I assume that these were profitable endeavors ! To me, they certainly seem equally large/serious development efforts, probably even more than a WOBuilder replacement. All I can speak for is my own company, but the reason there needs to be a business case for WOBuilder for us is that there is a substantial up-front development investment that has to happen to have anything worth using. By substantial, I'm talking many man-months. You bring up current-state WOLips and Wonder in contrast, so I feel that some context needs to be provided here. In the case of Wonder, I would say that 95+% of the code that I have contributed to Wonder was code that I had to write to solve a problem and we chose to contribute it back because we felt the community would benefit more (and by proxy, us) than we would if we kept it locked away. For Wonder, the answer is it was already paid for. The business case was generally made already because we either already decided that we needed an internal app that required the feature, or we had a paying customer that literally paid for it to happen. So that's Wonder. For WOLips, it's all tools, so it's harder to quantify. For almost all of the things I've worked on in WOLips, I felt that sinking the time into working on the feature either 1) made us more productive (i.e. automatically calling eogenerator -- relatively small feature, but a nice little bump), 2) made us less error prone (i.e. binding validation, code completion, etc), or 3) made me not want to kill people (i.e. replacing the previous HTML editor with a WO-smart one, which also ties into #1 and #2). We have invested a very large number of man-hours into WOLips development, don't get me wrong, but it's generally spread out over a year in little chunks. I didn't have to dedicate 4 months to get the new HTML editor out. Now it was maybe a week or two, but I dedicate a large amount of personal time in addition to work time on a lot of that stuff just because I enjoy it. So I tacitly make the business case for the majority of our WOLips contributions that I believe our development will be stronger because of it. Entity Modeler is an ENTIRELY different beast. I got a phone call from someone who worked with Apple and was asked how serious were you when you mentioned on the mailing list that you were thinking about an Eclipse-based Entity Modeler, because that might be a really good idea. Entity Modeler was the single largest time investment that I've made to WO open source, and if we took that on entirely inside the company, I would have absolutely have had to make a business case for it. And it's entirely possible that Bill would have said absolutely, but at the time, it was sort of exploratory, and I wasn't sure things would come of it, but I spent 5 weeks of completely off-hours personal time to try to get that out before WWDC 06, because I felt it was important to WO to have it. I'm not pointing that out because I want any sort of yay thanks, but rather that I took that on independently, which gave me the freedom to not have to make a 5 man-week business case for it. Now we have since dedicated quite a few (many many) hours to it under the company, because we believe (and Apple agreed) that Entity Modeler provided a direction for the tools story to go for WO, at which point it became its own business case (we use WO, we don't want to use the alternatives, so we need to support this tool). And then we come to WOBuilder again. It's the big missing chunk of the toolchain. But WOB is really hard, or at least doing WOB WELL is really hard. It's not just stick a webkit front-end on a text editor and ta-da!. You have to write Interface Builder. And not only do you have to write interface builder, you have to write interface builder that works well with essentially entirely custom NSViews (meaning, go make a UI in IB that uses nothing but custom NSViews -- nice gray boxes, right?). Just making a good previewing HTML editor is hard, let alone throwing in arbitrarily-nested- dynamically-changing-based-on-content-and-data-that-doesn't-exist-yet- because-you-haven't-put-data-in-your-database components. And if we worked on it, I'm not content just rehashing what the original WOB is, because I don't _like_ the original WOB. I believe (and this has been debated to death, so I'm simply stating it as my personal opinion and NOT as a fact) that WOB falls down for complex components that make
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
As usual, Chuck says the same thing I do, but with 1/4 of the words :) On Jul 5, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: a bunch of stuff ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HTTP/1.1 and Chunked transfers
Just bringing part of the discussion back here - as I don't think
that when chunking is turned on in the Axis client that the request
is making it to WO in the first place before getting a 411 error code.
Anyone have any ideas on this? e.g., anyone successfully using
chunking transfers from a soap client?
Thanks.
On 06/07/2007, at 8:54 AM, Mike Schrag wrote:
Post this on the Wonder list and Anjo can probably tell you
more ... Wonder has a replacement for WOHttpIO where Anjo
implemented support for chunked data.
/**
* Bugfix class that adds support for chunked content, which a HTTP
1.0 client MUST
* support. This is escpecially important for Axis clients 1.1.
br /
* If this class is going to be used, you need to make sure that it
comes before
* JavaWebObjects in the classpath.
*
* @author ak
*/
ms
On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:51 PM, Lachlan Deck wrote:
Hi there,
does anyone have any experience with receiving chunked data (or
perhaps sending chunked requests specifying the content-length
with Axis)?
I getting a 411 Length Required response in the client... so I'm
trying to ascertain whether there's some commons-httpclient
setting to have that generated when creating the requests (on the
client side) or if something else's afoot.
Any ideas?
i.e., in the client application there's something like this:
public MainServiceSoapBindingStub mainStub() {
if ( _stub == null ) {
MainService_ServiceLocator serviceLocator;
serviceLocator = new MainService_ServiceLocator();
this._stub = (MainServiceSoapBindingStub)
serviceLocator.getMainService();
...
if ( enable compression condition ) {
Map httpSettings;
// Set property to compress requests
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.MC_GZIP_REQUEST,
Boolean.TRUE);
// Tell the server it can compress responses
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.MC_ACCEPT_GZIP,
Boolean.TRUE);
// enable chunking and http 1.1
httpSettings = new Hashtable();
httpSettings.put(MessageContext.HTTP_TRANSPORT_VERSION,
HTTPConstants.HEADER_PROTOCOL_V11);
httpSettings.put
(HTTPConstants.HEADER_TRANSFER_ENCODING_CHUNKED, Boolean.TRUE);
this._stub._setProperty(HTTPConstants.REQUEST_HEADERS,
httpSettings);
}
}
}
And the stack trace below when calling one of the webservice methods.
with regards,
--
Lachlan Deck
[java] AxisFault
[java] faultCode: {http://xml.apache.org/axis/}HTTP
[java] faultSubcode:
[java] faultString: (411)Length Required
[java] faultActor:
[java] faultNode:
[java] faultDetail:
[java] {}:return code: 411
[java] lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC quot;-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//
ENquot;gt;
[java] lt;HTMLgt;lt;HEADgt;
[java] lt;TITLEgt;411 Length Requiredlt;/TITLEgt;
[java] lt;/HEADgt;lt;BODYgt;
[java] lt;H1gt;Length Requiredlt;/H1gt;
[java] A request of the requested method POST requires a
valid Content-length.lt;Pgt;
[java] chunked Transfer-Encoding forbidden: /cgi-bin/
WebObjects/WillowServices.woa/-55443/ws/MainServicelt;Pgt;
[java] lt;HRgt;
[java] lt;ADDRESSgt;Apache/1.3.33 Server at lds-mac.local
Port 80lt;/ADDRESSgt;
[java] lt;/BODYgt;lt;/HTMLgt;
[java]
[java] {http://xml.apache.org/axis/}HttpErrorCode:411
[java]
[java] (411)Length Required
[java] at
org.apache.axis.transport.http.CommonsHTTPSender.invoke
(CommonsHTTPSender.java:218)
[java] at
org.apache.axis.strategies.InvocationStrategy.visit
(InvocationStrategy.java:32)
[java] at org.apache.axis.SimpleChain.doVisiting
(SimpleChain.java:118)
[java] at org.apache.axis.SimpleChain.invoke
(SimpleChain.java:83)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.AxisClient.invoke
(AxisClient.java:165)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invokeEngine
(Call.java:2784)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2767)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2443)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:2366)
[java] at org.apache.axis.client.Call.invoke(Call.java:1812)
[java] at
my.client.app.ws.stubs.MainServiceSoapBindingStub.blahBlah
(MainServiceSoapBindingStub.java:874)
[java] ..
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Re: WOBuilder Replacement
I was one of those who raised his hand - but honestly, I no longer feel the same way, so it's even fewer than those few. Having digested some of this discussion going on for the past several days, I've arrived at the conclusion that, as many people have indicated, the current WOComponent editor helps me be more productive than I ever was with WOBuilder. The pros for me that make WOBuilder irrelevant are things such as: * Autocompletion is fantastic. This is already a deeply ingrained part of my regular WOLips development workflow (I've only even been using WOLips for about nine months), so it extends easily for me to the WOD editor. Once I have a good grasp of the layout of the data I am modeling in a component, it's much faster than digging through the list of bindings in WOBuilder to figure out what I want to connect. * The latest, absolutely kick-ass round of refactoring features have made it so much easier to deal with my old, WOBuilder-built components that I might have ordinarily been tempted to open WOBuilder for. In a single click, I can convert all the ugly WOBuilder generated names to something much more meaningful, and the end result is that I don't have to go spelunking in my own code to figure out what's going on. I haven't opened WOBuilder at all since this surfaced, and even before then, it was an infrequent event. * Since I've been using WOLips, my component code ends up looking MUCH cleaner, simply because I have to look at and edit it all the time. That also makes me come off better to the people who actually like to admire others' HTML. Almost the only thing that is a bit of a headache for me is building tabular data views and whipping up the initial layout of forms. I often mock up the code for these with Dreamweaver and copy/paste, so I wouldn't mind seeing some alternative function in WOLips to accelerate that common task, but that's certainly not something I can't live without, either. * The WOD editor doesn't exhibit all of the bugs that WOBuilder does. So at the end of the day, would I pay real money for a graphical tool that does all this, except with eye candy? Possibly - I'd even go as far as to say probably. But it also definitely doesn't fit into the category of a must-have. Clark On 5 Jul 07, at 6:30 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I asked at WWDC who would pay real money (granted, an unspecified amount) for a WOBuilder and VERY few hands went up in a pretty large room of WO developers. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Webobjects XCode
there's a gentoo WO installation guide Followed your guide and have the ebuild, however i notice you have a requirement for dev-java/sun-jdk-1.4.2.15 I already have dev-java/sun-jdk-1.5.0.08 installed as well as dev-java/blackdown-jdk-1.4.2.03-r15 can/will your ebuild work with those java jdks ? On Jul 5, 2007, at 4:04 AM, Cyryl Plotnicki-Chudyk wrote: Chuck Hill pisze: On Jul 4, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Ketema J. Harris wrote: I appreciate the advice. I now have Eclipse up an WOLips installed. I am running through some tutorials and have a bunch to learn. In one of the links provided by Chuck, I noticed that apache can be used as the webserver for WO. Is this the standard now? Reason I ask is because I have plenty of Linux boxes with apache on them lying around with which I can play, and really do not want to use my xserve if I don't have to. (I like it doing what's it doing). You can deploy on Linux, but some extra steps are needed to build the Apache module for WO on your specific Linux distro. I don't have any links handy for the steps. http://www.power.com.pl/pl/webobjects/installation#header ^ there's a gentoo WO installation guide -- Cyryl Plotnicki-Chudyk Software Developer Power Media S.A. http://www.power.com.pl District Court for Wroclaw-Fabryczna KRS: 281947 NIP: PL-898-16-47-572 Capital stock: 500 000 PLN ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ketema% 40ketema.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WOBuilder Replacement
Hi Clark, Thank you for a reasoned response in what has become a rather feisty thread! On Jul 5, 2007, at 9:57 PM, Clark Mueller wrote: I was one of those who raised his hand - but honestly, I no longer feel the same way, so it's even fewer than those few. Having digested some of this discussion going on for the past several days, I've arrived at the conclusion that, as many people have indicated, the current WOComponent editor helps me be more productive than I ever was with WOBuilder. The pros for me that make WOBuilder irrelevant are things such as: * Autocompletion is fantastic. This is already a deeply ingrained part of my regular WOLips development workflow (I've only even been using WOLips for about nine months), so it extends easily for me to the WOD editor. Once I have a good grasp of the layout of the data I am modeling in a component, it's much faster than digging through the list of bindings in WOBuilder to figure out what I want to connect. * The latest, absolutely kick-ass round of refactoring features have made it so much easier to deal with my old, WOBuilder-built components that I might have ordinarily been tempted to open WOBuilder for. In a single click, I can convert all the ugly WOBuilder generated names to something much more meaningful, and the end result is that I don't have to go spelunking in my own code to figure out what's going on. I haven't opened WOBuilder at all since this surfaced, and even before then, it was an infrequent event. * Since I've been using WOLips, my component code ends up looking MUCH cleaner, simply because I have to look at and edit it all the time. That also makes me come off better to the people who actually like to admire others' HTML. Almost the only thing that is a bit of a headache for me is building tabular data views and whipping up the initial layout of forms. I often mock up the code for these with Dreamweaver and copy/paste, so I wouldn't mind seeing some alternative function in WOLips to accelerate that common task, but that's certainly not something I can't live without, either. That strikes me as an excellent suggestion! I do most forms with divs now, but it is still the same painful process getting the scaffolding laid out. Something to kickstart this might be quite useful and may not take too long to make. Think on how this might work and file a suggestion here: http://issues.objectstyle.org/jira/ secure/Dashboard.jspa In the meantime, have a look at AjaxGrid in Wonder's Ajax framework. It is driven from a plist file (for which I may write a nice editor one of these days) and makes tabular data views quick and easy to create. Chuck * The WOD editor doesn't exhibit all of the bugs that WOBuilder does. So at the end of the day, would I pay real money for a graphical tool that does all this, except with eye candy? Possibly - I'd even go as far as to say probably. But it also definitely doesn't fit into the category of a must-have. Clark On 5 Jul 07, at 6:30 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I asked at WWDC who would pay real money (granted, an unspecified amount) for a WOBuilder and VERY few hands went up in a pretty large room of WO developers. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill% 40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
