Re: Best Way(R) to test for existence of a relationship
Just my 2 cents to the discussion )
If we consider the object model to be correct then the task of
traversing the array with 2 types of objects seems to be ideal for the
Visitor pattern. Am I missing something?
On 4/8/08, David Avendasora [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Unfortunately, no. There's _lots_ of differences. There are a number of
attributes that they share, but they each have completely different business
logic for deriving those values, and they each have attributes that are
unique to themselves that would make no sense to have on the other.
As uncommon as it is to actually need inheritance in the Model, the amount
of work I would have to do to not use it would far exceed the amount of work
I have to do to use it.
Believe me, I'm not using it just because it is a cool OO concept. Not that
I don't do that in other places in my app - just not here. :-)
Dave
On Apr 7, 2008, at 3:18 PM, Alexander Spohr wrote:
What are the other differences between RawMaterial and ManufacturedPart?
Wouldn't it be enough to just flag the RawMaterial ones as such and just
have one class for both?
atze
Am 07.04.2008 um 18:02 schrieb David Avendasora:
You know, I was hoping to avoid the whole question if the domain was
actually well-modeled or not, but with such dispersions cast on my flawless
modeling skills, I must respond! :-P
I have 2 types of Parts. One purchased from an outside vendor
(RawMaterial), and ones that are manufactured (ManufacturedPart). A
ManufacturedPart is made up of any number of component Parts. These
component Parts can be _either_ a RawMaterial or another ManufacturedPart.
So I have modeled it like this:
ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - Part
To make things more complicated each given Manufactured Part can have
one or more ways of making it and therefor have multiple BillsOfMaterial.
Hence, I have a branching, recursive relationship tree that can be any
number of levels deep:
ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - ManufacturedPart
- BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - ManufacturedPart - Rinse, lather,
repeat.
Or it can be very simple
ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - RawMaterial
What all this comes down to is that billsOfMaterial() does _not_ belong
on Part as it does not belong on RawMaterial because a RawMaterial is NOT
manufactured by us so it will never have a BillOfMaterial.
But there are several places in my code that I want to recursively
navigate this tree and I just don't see a right way to do that without
some variation of instanceOf (in code or in a fetch), a case statement or
adding the method to Part.
The simplicity of one simple method returning NSArray.emptyArray wins.
Even though it sullies my object graph, it does so in a much less
complicated, fragile way.
Dave
On Apr 7, 2008, at 11:26 AM, Chuck Hill wrote:
The real question is whether it makes sense in the domain for a Part
to have a bill of materials. The default implementation could be
public NSArray billOfMaterials() { return this; }
With complex parts overriding it as appropriate. It could just be
that the model / design is incomplete and leading David into doing Bad
Things in code.
Otherwise, (a) the model is just wrong, or (b) David's processing is
just wrong.
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Alexander Spohr
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With best regards,
Michael Bushkov
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Webservice serialization
Hi I'm trying to serialize for a webservice and Strings get serialized without a problem, but integers and floats will get a href, and as such WSMakeStubs result applescript or cocoa class return 0 with the values Using Soap Client to check the resulting xml file I get the following for numbers: s_int href=#id3/s_int with a multiref outside my object class like this multiRef id=id3 soapenc:root=0 soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/ xsi:type=soapenc:int15/multiRef The code used to serialize the integer is this: context.serialize(new QName(, s_int), null, new Integer(15)); The result that I would like to have is to have the item look like this: s_int xsi:type=soapenc:int15/s_int without a reference to the int. Am I missing a configuration option here to set this? Freddie Tilley ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Webservice serialization
Hello Freddie; I'm not sure if this has changed in 10.5, but 10.4 WebServicesCore was not able to handle multirefs as far as I could see. Here is a note I put on the wiki about this from 2006 or 2007; WebServicesCore does not appear to be able to process the 'multiref' values which are returned from the AXIS engine. To get around this, turn off multiref support in the WebObjects application. To achieve this, locate the server.wsdd file and the element parameter with the name sendMultiRefs. Modify this element to have the value false. cheers. ___ Andrew Lindesay www.lindesay.co.nz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best Way® to test for existence of a re lationship
An alternative way to handle this is to use the Strategy design
pattern and just have one Entity ... Part.
You would then create a PartBehaviour interface that encapsulates all
the things that vary among the various parts. It would give you great
flexibility to easily (easier than adding/maintaining another entity
to the eomodel inheritance hierarchy IMHO) add other kinds of parts
too such as SubassemblyPart, FinishedPart, ConsumablePart, etc.
A few years ago I had an inheritance hierarchy that was getting
painful (No Fun) to maintain as the system evolved and new
requirements had to be implemented . I collapsed the inheritance
hierarchy into one Entity and implemented the Strategy design pattern
and this has served me very well (even Fun to add features).
Switching from an inheritance hierarchy to Strategy design pattern is
very easy if you are already using Single table inheritance in
fact IIRC, there is no database schema changes required at all.
The downside is that *every* Part has *all* attributes ... however
the approriate answer is returned when a Part is sent a message
so if asked for an attribute that does not make sense for it to have,
then it would return null or an empty array in the case of a to-many.
The advantage of Strategy design pattern is that each entity can have
any subset of the total attributes, even overlapping subsets without a
thought or a care as to inheritance layers and overriding logic of
subclasses.
Of course Stratagy d.p. is not a panacea . sometimes it just works
better where inheritance design is becoming No Fun to deal with, which
often happens down the road as requirements change/evolve :-)
However, if you are under pressure to Just Fix It right now, then
Chuck's solution might be easiest and quickest. If you find the
inheritance archtecture of Parts is hurting your ability to easily add
Real World business logic, then check out the Strategy design pattern
(Head First patterns book ... the first one described IIRC)
Regards, Kieran
On Apr 7, 2008, at 4:03 PM, David Avendasora wrote:
Unfortunately, no. There's _lots_ of differences. There are a number
of attributes that they share, but they each have completely
different business logic for deriving those values, and they each
have attributes that are unique to themselves that would make no
sense to have on the other.
As uncommon as it is to actually need inheritance in the Model, the
amount of work I would have to do to not use it would far exceed the
amount of work I have to do to use it.
Believe me, I'm not using it just because it is a cool OO concept.
Not that I don't do that in other places in my app - just not
here. :-)
Dave
On Apr 7, 2008, at 3:18 PM, Alexander Spohr wrote:
What are the other differences between RawMaterial and
ManufacturedPart?
Wouldn’t it be enough to just flag the RawMaterial ones as such and
just have one class for both?
atze
Am 07.04.2008 um 18:02 schrieb David Avendasora:
You know, I was hoping to avoid the whole question if the domain
was actually well-modeled or not, but with such dispersions cast
on my flawless modeling skills, I must respond! :-P
I have 2 types of Parts. One purchased from an outside vendor
(RawMaterial), and ones that are manufactured (ManufacturedPart).
A ManufacturedPart is made up of any number of component Parts.
These component Parts can be _either_ a RawMaterial or another
ManufacturedPart.
So I have modeled it like this:
ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - Part
To make things more complicated each given Manufactured Part can
have one or more ways of making it and therefor have multiple
BillsOfMaterial.
Hence, I have a branching, recursive relationship tree that can be
any number of levels deep:
ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent -
ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent -
ManufacturedPart - Rinse, lather, repeat.
Or it can be very simple
ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - RawMaterial
What all this comes down to is that billsOfMaterial() does _not_
belong on Part as it does not belong on RawMaterial because a
RawMaterial is NOT manufactured by us so it will never have a
BillOfMaterial.
But there are several places in my code that I want to recursively
navigate this tree and I just don't see a right way to do that
without some variation of instanceOf (in code or in a fetch), a
case statement or adding the method to Part.
The simplicity of one simple method returning NSArray.emptyArray
wins. Even though it sullies my object graph, it does so in a much
less complicated, fragile way.
Dave
On Apr 7, 2008, at 11:26 AM, Chuck Hill wrote:
The real question is whether it makes sense in the domain for a
Part to have a bill of materials. The default implementation
could be
public NSArray billOfMaterials() { return this; }
With
Google App Engine
Hi! FYI: http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine.html I bet Mike can't write an adaptor for the Datastore in a weekend... ;) Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google App Engine
I actually looked at this ... I'm not sure if you can access the datastore outside of the python API's running in the cluster. Amazon's is a possibility also, but the query capability is very limited, and joins would have to be implemented inside the adaptor. Google's at least appears to expose a SQL-like API, though I don't know how extensive it is. ms On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! FYI: http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine.html I bet Mike can't write an adaptor for the Datastore in a weekend... ;) Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google App Engine
. but then i think you were only semi-serious ;) On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:53 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I actually looked at this ... I'm not sure if you can access the datastore outside of the python API's running in the cluster. Amazon's is a possibility also, but the query capability is very limited, and joins would have to be implemented inside the adaptor. Google's at least appears to expose a SQL-like API, though I don't know how extensive it is. ms On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! FYI: http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine.html I bet Mike can't write an adaptor for the Datastore in a weekend... ;) Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Integer i in EOModel creates Long or Integer in EOGeneration
I have two entities,
one with attribute showPublish,
one with attribute performancePublish
As you can imagine these are booleans, which I make up from an int4 in
postgresql.
I checked the database, both fields are the same type integer.
So far so good. here are the plist descriptions of both:
{
columnName = show_publish;
externalType = int4;
name = showPublish;
valueClassName = NSNumber;
valueType = i;
},
{
columnName = perf_publish;
externalType = int4;
name = performancePublish;
valueClassName = NSNumber;
valueType = i;
},
When I use EOGenerate to create a _Show class, and a _Performance
class, this results in:
public Long showPublish() {
return (Long) storedValueForKey(showPublish);
}
public Integer performancePublish() {
return (Integer) storedValueForKey(performancePublish);
}
Can anybody explain to me why this is happening? Is there some magic
involved that, before the EOModel gets written out, there is a check
in the database of some kind that could cause this?
(WOLips)
Regards,
Johan Henselmans
http://www.netsense.nl
Tel: +31-20-6267538
Fax: +31-20-6279159
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Re: Integer i in EOModel creates Long or Integer in EOGeneration
When I use EOGenerate to create a _Show class, and a _Performance
class, this results in:
If you're using the stock eogenerator templates, they call WOLips'
attribute.getJavaClassName(), which is pretty straightforward:
String className = getValueClassName();
if (Number.equals(className) || NSNumber.equals(className))
{
...
} else if (i.equals(valueType)) {
className = Integer;
...
All that matters is that your attribute is NSNumber + i. Given the
simplicity of this code, I don't see any way this would mess up except
that you're not looking at the model you think you're looking at,
you're not looking at the class you think you're looking at, or you're
not using the velocity templates you think you're using.
ms ___
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Re: Best Way® to test for existence of a rela tionship
On Apr 7, 2008, at 10:50 AM, David Avendasora wrote: On Apr 7, 2008, at 1:23 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: I have 2 types of Parts. One purchased from an outside vendor (RawMaterial), and ones that are manufactured (ManufacturedPart). A ManufacturedPart is made up of any number of component Parts. These component Parts can be _either_ a RawMaterial or another ManufacturedPart. Consider it from a different point of view. You have parts that can be composed of sub-parts. There are two sub-classes, 1. SimplePart (aka RawMaterial). This never has any sub-parts. 2. ComplexPart (aka ManufacturedPart). This has one or more sub- parts. In this scenario, Part.subParts() makes sense for all types. I'm not sure how this is much different conceptually than what I have already. It is not. I was just using different names so you might look at it with fresh eyes. I find that tricks like that sometimes help break out of a path of thinking. The problem is that I cannot simplify it that far because there may be 5 or more ways of making a given part depending upon which Manufacturing Line is being used, the time of year, wether or not a piece of equipment on the manufacturing line is broken-down or not, etc. I do have the concept of the default BillOfMaterial for a given Part, but that is controlled by the user setting a flag on the one they want to be default. So, in theory I could have convenience methods that return the subParts of the default BillOfMaterial for the given Part, but in most cases, that is not useful information for my users. I need to know much more before I can say what the subParts are. So I have modeled it like this: ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - Part What is BOMComponent? Why not just ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - Part Or, in my terminology ComplexPart - ConstructionDescription - Part It's actually even more complicated because there are Steps between the BillOfMaterial and BOMComponents like so: BillOfMaterial - Step - BOMComponent Think of the BillOfMaterial as a recipe to make a specific Part. In Step 1 you will use 5 different BOMComponents. Each Step has attributes such as instructions, tools used, etc. Each BOMComponent has attributes like quantity, unit of measure, etc as well as the part. Yes, that does complicate it. To make things more complicated each given Manufactured Part can have one or more ways of making it and therefor have multiple BillsOfMaterial. Hence, I have a branching, recursive relationship tree that can be any number of levels deep: ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - ManufacturedPart - Rinse, lather, repeat. Or it can be very simple ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - RawMaterial What all this comes down to is that billsOfMaterial() does _not_ belong on Part as it does not belong on RawMaterial because a RawMaterial is NOT manufactured by us so it will never have a BillOfMaterial. Why are you iterating over Parts calling billOfMaterial()? What is the goal? What exactly are you doing with this information? I have an idea of what you are missing, but I will wait for an answer to this. In this specific example, I'm adding the specified Part to a Manufacturing Schedule and I need to know what subParts (using your terminology) need to be scheduled in addition to the Part that was ordered. The way I find the subParts that need to be scheduled is to open the selected BillOfMaterial for the Part, drill down to the components and step through them to see if they need to be scheduled as well. You mention selected BillOfMaterials. What happens when some of the sub-parts are also Manufactured parts? Does the user manually select their BillOfMaterials too? But there are several places in my code that I want to recursively navigate this tree and I just don't see a right way to do that without some variation of instanceOf (in code or in a fetch), a case statement or adding the method to Part. The simplicity of one simple method returning NSArray.emptyArray wins. Even though it sullies my object graph, it does so in a much less complicated, fragile way. Still seems wrong. Tell me how to do it right. I'm all ears. Well, you went and complicated it. :-) The Visitor pattern suggestion is a good one. It could be your processing, rather than model, that needs a change. Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
ApplicationDidFinishLaunchingNotification Problem
There is a handy notification in WOApplication called ApplicationDidFinishLaunchingNotification for which you can register an observer. In fact, this is what Wonder uses for ERXApplication's didFinishLaunching(). However, I've noticed that when when building for deployment as a servlet (using Leopard Server Tomcat), no observers for ApplicationDidFinishLaunchingNotification get called! If I deploy as a .woa it works fine, but as a servlet it does not. I've reduced it to a very simple test case and will file a bug with Apple, but I just wanted to find out if anyone else has seen this problem? Is there a recommended alternative for performing one time application startup batch operations other than in the constructor or using ApplicationDidFinishLaunchingNotification? I guess there is always the request-response loop... Thanks, Aleksey ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google App Engine
I don't know if it would be possible to integrate EOF and such a data store, as EOF is very tight to the relational model, without doing some heavy trickery Speaking of that, why do we continue the Cargo Cult of the relational database? Isn't it about time to move past them, and begin moving to persistent storage that makes sense in the modern age of objects? That's all I'll say on the subject. I'm not trying to start a long discussion that will all end in tears. On Apr 8, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! Of course I was! :) I don't know if it would be possible to integrate EOF and such a data store, as EOF is very tight to the relational model, without doing some heavy trickery (ie, bugs, instability, limitations, etc). And there's also the problem of not being able to access it outside of the python sandbox. But being able to do queries against the google infrastructure is very very interesting, specially considering my permanent performance concerns with traditional DBs... Interesting note, they also use OL to handle concurrency. I hope their implementation actually works! :) Yours Miguel Arroz On 2008/04/08, at 16:54, Mike Schrag wrote: . but then i think you were only semi-serious ;) On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:53 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I actually looked at this ... I'm not sure if you can access the datastore outside of the python API's running in the cluster. Amazon's is a possibility also, but the query capability is very limited, and joins would have to be implemented inside the adaptor. Google's at least appears to expose a SQL-like API, though I don't know how extensive it is. ms On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! FYI: http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/ whatisgoogleappengine.html I bet Mike can't write an adaptor for the Datastore in a weekend... ;) Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag% 40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz% 40guiamac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/robert.walker% 40bennettig.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google App Engine
Hi! On 2008/04/08, at 17:12, Robert Walker wrote: Speaking of that, why do we continue the Cargo Cult of the relational database? Isn't it about time to move past them, and begin moving to persistent storage that makes sense in the modern age of objects? That's all I'll say on the subject. I'm not trying to start a long discussion that will all end in tears. I do agree, I hate relational DBs. The problem is that I still didn't find any other persistent store that: 1) Can scale and handle high load (in a real environment, not just on the spec sheet); 2) Is affordable/free; 3) Integrates well with powerful frameworks like WO. When something comes up that meets these criteria, I will move on the first day. I feel the same as you, it's incredible how little databases have evolved in the last decades. But if making a good alternative was easy, we would have lots of them around, I guess. Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best Way® to test for existence of a re lationship
Kieran, Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I'm going to take a serious look at using this in the future as I can see adding other classes and being able to morph from one behavior to another could be helpful as well. Thanks for the heads up! Dave On Apr 8, 2008, at 9:32 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: An alternative way to handle this is to use the Strategy design pattern and just have one Entity ... Part. You would then create a PartBehaviour interface that encapsulates all the things that vary among the various parts. It would give you great flexibility to easily (easier than adding/maintaining another entity to the eomodel inheritance hierarchy IMHO) add other kinds of parts too such as SubassemblyPart, FinishedPart, ConsumablePart, etc. A few years ago I had an inheritance hierarchy that was getting painful (No Fun) to maintain as the system evolved and new requirements had to be implemented . I collapsed the inheritance hierarchy into one Entity and implemented the Strategy design pattern and this has served me very well (even Fun to add features). Switching from an inheritance hierarchy to Strategy design pattern is very easy if you are already using Single table inheritance in fact IIRC, there is no database schema changes required at all. The downside is that *every* Part has *all* attributes ... however the approriate answer is returned when a Part is sent a message so if asked for an attribute that does not make sense for it to have, then it would return null or an empty array in the case of a to-many. The advantage of Strategy design pattern is that each entity can have any subset of the total attributes, even overlapping subsets without a thought or a care as to inheritance layers and overriding logic of subclasses. Of course Stratagy d.p. is not a panacea . sometimes it just works better where inheritance design is becoming No Fun to deal with, which often happens down the road as requirements change/ evolve :-) However, if you are under pressure to Just Fix It right now, then Chuck's solution might be easiest and quickest. If you find the inheritance archtecture of Parts is hurting your ability to easily add Real World business logic, then check out the Strategy design pattern (Head First patterns book ... the first one described IIRC) Regards, Kieran On Apr 7, 2008, at 4:03 PM, David Avendasora wrote: Unfortunately, no. There's _lots_ of differences. There are a number of attributes that they share, but they each have completely different business logic for deriving those values, and they each have attributes that are unique to themselves that would make no sense to have on the other. As uncommon as it is to actually need inheritance in the Model, the amount of work I would have to do to not use it would far exceed the amount of work I have to do to use it. Believe me, I'm not using it just because it is a cool OO concept. Not that I don't do that in other places in my app - just not here. :-) Dave On Apr 7, 2008, at 3:18 PM, Alexander Spohr wrote: What are the other differences between RawMaterial and ManufacturedPart? Wouldn’t it be enough to just flag the RawMaterial ones as such and just have one class for both? atze Am 07.04.2008 um 18:02 schrieb David Avendasora: You know, I was hoping to avoid the whole question if the domain was actually well-modeled or not, but with such dispersions cast on my flawless modeling skills, I must respond! :-P I have 2 types of Parts. One purchased from an outside vendor (RawMaterial), and ones that are manufactured (ManufacturedPart). A ManufacturedPart is made up of any number of component Parts. These component Parts can be _either_ a RawMaterial or another ManufacturedPart. So I have modeled it like this: ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - Part To make things more complicated each given Manufactured Part can have one or more ways of making it and therefor have multiple BillsOfMaterial. Hence, I have a branching, recursive relationship tree that can be any number of levels deep: ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - ManufacturedPart - Rinse, lather, repeat. Or it can be very simple ManufacturedPart - BillOfMaterial - BOMComponent - RawMaterial What all this comes down to is that billsOfMaterial() does _not_ belong on Part as it does not belong on RawMaterial because a RawMaterial is NOT manufactured by us so it will never have a BillOfMaterial. But there are several places in my code that I want to recursively navigate this tree and I just don't see a right way to do that without some variation of instanceOf (in code or in a fetch), a case statement or adding the method to Part. The simplicity of one simple method returning
Re: Google App Engine
I do agree, I hate relational DBs. The problem is that I still didn't find any other persistent store that: 1) Can scale and handle high load (in a real environment, not just on the spec sheet); 2) Is affordable/free; 3) Integrates well with powerful frameworks like WO. http://www.intersystems.com/cache/index.html I don't yet know a lot about this, but from reading their feature list, systems like this may be in our near future. Feature and Benefits: http://www.intersystems.com/cache/technology/fb/fb_02.html On Apr 8, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2008/04/08, at 17:12, Robert Walker wrote: Speaking of that, why do we continue the Cargo Cult of the relational database? Isn't it about time to move past them, and begin moving to persistent storage that makes sense in the modern age of objects? That's all I'll say on the subject. I'm not trying to start a long discussion that will all end in tears. I do agree, I hate relational DBs. The problem is that I still didn't find any other persistent store that: 1) Can scale and handle high load (in a real environment, not just on the spec sheet); 2) Is affordable/free; 3) Integrates well with powerful frameworks like WO. When something comes up that meets these criteria, I will move on the first day. I feel the same as you, it's incredible how little databases have evolved in the last decades. But if making a good alternative was easy, we would have lots of them around, I guess. Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com Robert Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Integer i in EOModel creates Long or Integer in EOGeneration
Op 8 apr 2008, om 18:00 heeft Mike Schrag het volgende geschreven:
When I use EOGenerate to create a _Show class, and a _Performance
class, this results in:
If you're using the stock eogenerator templates, they call WOLips'
attribute.getJavaClassName(), which is pretty straightforward:
String className = getValueClassName();
if (Number.equals(className) || NSNumber.equals(className))
{
...
} else if (i.equals(valueType)) {
className = Integer;
...
All that matters is that your attribute is NSNumber + i. Given the
simplicity of this code, I don't see any way this would mess up
except that you're not looking at the model you think you're looking
at, you're not looking at the class you think you're looking at, or
you're not using the velocity templates you think you're using.
I completely agree, but after some hard learned lessons I think I have
done all the things that should be done (apart from completely
reinstalling the OS, WOLips and WebObjects, and dancing three times
around the camp fire while shouting Woa, Woa, Woa!)
ms
If anyone would care to look at the code, I have a postgresql schema
and the Business Logic Framework project in a zip. I am thinking of
sleeping a night over it. It seems to give the best answers, if you
can afford it against the deadline...
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Johan Henselmans
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Re: Best Way® to test for existence of a re lationship
However, if you are under pressure to Just Fix It right now, then Chuck's solution might be easiest and quickest. Actually, if you're under pressure to Just Fix It right now ... I would Just Leave It Alone :) It's only wrong because we're grumpy software developers. Your current code gets the job done just fine and it's not that big of a deal. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google App Engine
One of our suppliers used this DB and it was, to use a technical term, a bag of crap. That was a few years back now, so it may have moved on a bit, but it's one of those things filed under avoid at all costs in my brain. To me relational = reliable. It's a bit like EOF vs Ruby on Rails. Yeah, there's stacks of whizzy new bits of kit out there, but at the end of the day would you lay your life on something that's got just a few months under it's belt, or stick with something that's been running heavily used systems for years ? Simon On 8 Apr 2008, at 17:55, Robert Walker wrote: http://www.intersystems.com/cache/index.html I don't yet know a lot about this, but from reading their feature list, systems like this may be in our near future. Feature and Benefits:http://www.intersystems.com/cache/technology/fb/fb_02.html On Apr 8, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2008/04/08, at 17:12, Robert Walker wrote: Speaking of that, why do we continue the Cargo Cult of the relational database? Isn't it about time to move past them, and begin moving to persistent storage that makes sense in the modern age of objects? That's all I'll say on the subject. I'm not trying to start a long discussion that will all end in tears. I do agree, I hate relational DBs. The problem is that I still didn't find any other persistent store that: 1) Can scale and handle high load (in a real environment, not just on the spec sheet); 2) Is affordable/free; 3) Integrates well with powerful frameworks like WO. When something comes up that meets these criteria, I will move on the first day. I feel the same as you, it's incredible how little databases have evolved in the last decades. But if making a good alternative was easy, we would have lots of them around, I guess. Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Leaving WebObjects
For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) 2. EOF 3. WONDER 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Pity. :( = Robert = ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google App Engine
One of our suppliers used this DB and it was, to use a technical term, a bag of crap. That was a few years back now, so it may have moved on a bit, but it's one of those things filed under avoid at all costs in my brain. Exactly why I made it very clear that I don't have any details on that database. I was merely suggesting that there is work being done in this area, and that I feel we will benefit from it sometime in the not-so-distant future. To me relational = reliable. It's a bit like EOF vs Ruby on Rails. Yeah, there's stacks of whizzy new bits of kit out there, but at the end of the day would you lay your life on something that's got just a few months under it's belt, or stick with something that's been running heavily used systems for years ? That's also the thinking that brings innovation to crawl. Sometimes that's necessary, and a very good thing. But, not everything must be absolutely bullet-proof stable. Plus there's nothing in either EOF or RoR that is inherently more stable or unstable. Poor, unstable code is as easy to write in WO as it is in RoR. At least in my experience anyway. It's interesting that you bring up the EOF vs Rails argument. If RoR was a completely unstable pile of crap, then its popularity would have faded long before now. There's some real innovation going on in that space. There's a lot of things to learn from looking at competing framework. I'm a big fan of EOF, but I'm also a big fan of RoR. I'll use the tool that best fits my requirements. Making blanket statements about a framework, based on hearsay, simply because it may compete with what you're using doesn't really do anyone any good. This is a trend that seems to be perpetual. I just try to step outside the arguments and take advantage of what each language and framework has to offer. My apologies, I will be quiet now. I didn't mean to start anything, but I want my point of view to be clear. On Apr 8, 2008, at 1:09 PM, Simon McLean wrote: One of our suppliers used this DB and it was, to use a technical term, a bag of crap. That was a few years back now, so it may have moved on a bit, but it's one of those things filed under avoid at all costs in my brain. To me relational = reliable. It's a bit like EOF vs Ruby on Rails. Yeah, there's stacks of whizzy new bits of kit out there, but at the end of the day would you lay your life on something that's got just a few months under it's belt, or stick with something that's been running heavily used systems for years ? Simon On 8 Apr 2008, at 17:55, Robert Walker wrote: http://www.intersystems.com/cache/index.html I don't yet know a lot about this, but from reading their feature list, systems like this may be in our near future. Feature and Benefits:http://www.intersystems.com/cache/technology/ fb/fb_02.html On Apr 8, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2008/04/08, at 17:12, Robert Walker wrote: Speaking of that, why do we continue the Cargo Cult of the relational database? Isn't it about time to move past them, and begin moving to persistent storage that makes sense in the modern age of objects? That's all I'll say on the subject. I'm not trying to start a long discussion that will all end in tears. I do agree, I hate relational DBs. The problem is that I still didn't find any other persistent store that: 1) Can scale and handle high load (in a real environment, not just on the spec sheet); 2) Is affordable/free; 3) Integrates well with powerful frameworks like WO. When something comes up that meets these criteria, I will move on the first day. I feel the same as you, it's incredible how little databases have evolved in the last decades. But if making a good alternative was easy, we would have lots of them around, I guess. Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com Robert Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
Robert, Welcome to my world. Our company recently completed just such a transition. We went to Oracle ADF/BC (A JSF implementation). All I can say is to prepare yourself to see your nice clean EOGenericRecord subclasses replaced by thousand plus line class and XML configuration files. But, the good news is those classes are a little easier to learn, because they do a whole lot less than enterprise objects. On Apr 8, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) 2. EOF 3. WONDER 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Pity. :( = Robert = ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/robert.walker% 40bennettig.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
Hello Robert, Any chance you or any from your company could attend the WOWODC this year ? http://www.wocommunity.org/wowodc08/ WO is more than alive, and getting new adopters. Today, I gave a short (45 mn) introduction to 9 young students from the engineer school in Sophia Antipolis (France); to my own surprise, they were more than receptive, impressed. Cheers, Christian Trotobas [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://intellicore.net Le 8 avr. 08 à 20:50, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt a écrit : For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) 2. EOF 3. WONDER 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Pity. :( = Robert = ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/trotobas% 40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Final Cut Server a Java Client Application??
A minute or so into the getting started tutorial of Final Cut Server http://www.apple.com/finalcutserver/tutorials/#tutorial =gettingstarted you see them launch the client application portion of the application, which starts with Java WebStart! Now, I have no idea if it is or is not a WO application or what, but it certainly is interesting... Dave ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Final Cut Server a Java Client Application??
Yeah this is crazy -- They show a shot of it running on Mac and Windows ... This is the best looking Java client app ever if it is. I'm really curious if this is an awesome Apple Pro App Swing Look and Feel or if they custom wrote a UI toolkit. ms On Apr 8, 2008, at 3:31 PM, David Avendasora wrote: A minute or so into the getting started tutorial of Final Cut Server http://www.apple.com/finalcutserver/tutorials/#tutorial =gettingstarted you see them launch the client application portion of the application, which starts with Java WebStart! Now, I have no idea if it is or is not a WO application or what, but it certainly is interesting... Dave ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
Hi there, On 09/04/2008, at 4:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. For some time WO5.3.3 has been out... and free. And WO5.4.1 is also out. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-) 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on *any* platform. 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) Hardly anyone uses Xcode, WOBuilder, EOModeler anymore -- especially if you're on Leopard. They use Eclipse/WOLips which is much better and improving in leaps and bounds all the time. http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home - perhaps you/they've not had a look through the wiki... tutorials etc 2. EOF If you're not using EOF - what part of WebObjects were you using? 3. WONDER That's a huge loss - especially given that they're big on non- proprietary frameworks. 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. I do understand where companies (or more specifically, management) are coming from when they get nervous about a certain technology such as WebObjects. For years Apple was quite silent about WebObjects. e.g., Bug reports went unnoticed, updates didn't seem to be a priority. But that has turned around quite dramatically in the last couple of years... ironically beginning with the announcement of the tools deprecation. The community is thriving and Apple (i.e., the employees) are also contributing in significant ways and being proactive about bug reports and taking part in the mailing lists. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. Personally I think Apple has done something about it - and for the better. But as I've explained, you're only left with one argument: proprietary. You can't argue with management, unfortunately, when their on the buzz word bandwagon of open-source despite the maturity of a particular framework in comparison to other stuff... Certainly if it's completely closed and there's no possibility of customising stuff... but we've already mentioned WOnder (or Houdah, or similar frameworks) I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Perhaps you held it too long and didn't realise what's happened these last few years ;-) with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ApplicationDidFinishLaunchingNotification Problem
Hello Aleksey; Yes I have had this problem as well -- I'm not deploying into servlets at the moment so I have not followed it up. cheers. I've reduced it to a very simple test case and will file a bug with Apple, but I just wanted to find out if anyone else has seen this problem? Is there a recommended alternative for performing one time application startup batch operations other than in the constructor or using ApplicationDidFinishLaunchingNotification? I guess there is always the request-response loop... ___ Andrew Lindesay www.lindesay.co.nz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
On Apr 8, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hi there, On 09/04/2008, at 4:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. For some time WO5.3.3 has been out... and free. And WO5.4.1 is also out. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-) Touché! I see this as more of a manufactured justification than a real reason. 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on *any* platform Windows is not an officially supported platform. There is the matter of a web server adaptor on Windows. There are options, but it is not a supported, out of box experience. 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) Hardly anyone uses Xcode, WOBuilder, EOModeler anymore -- especially if you're on Leopard. They use Eclipse/WOLips which is much better and improving in leaps and bounds all the time. http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home - perhaps you/they've not had a look through the wiki... tutorials etc 2. EOF If you're not using EOF - what part of WebObjects were you using? Not the really nice parts apparently. Not using EOF? WTF? 3. WONDER That's a huge loss - especially given that they're big on non- proprietary frameworks. Well, IIRC, Wonder does use EOF. :-P 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. I do understand where companies (or more specifically, management) are coming from when they get nervous about a certain technology such as WebObjects. For years Apple was quite silent about WebObjects. e.g., Bug reports went unnoticed, updates didn't seem to be a priority. But that has turned around quite dramatically in the last couple of years... ironically beginning with the announcement of the tools deprecation. Oddly, probably one of the best things to ever happen to WO! Largely, of course, to the obsessive Mr. Schrag. The community is thriving and Apple (i.e., the employees) are also contributing in significant ways and being proactive about bug reports and taking part in the mailing lists. The parrot is definitely not dead and we DO have that sort of cheese. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. Personally I think Apple has done something about it - and for the better. But as I've explained, you're only left with one argument: proprietary. You can't argue with management, unfortunately, when their on the buzz word bandwagon of open-source despite the maturity of a particular framework in comparison to other stuff... Certainly if it's completely closed and there's no possibility of customising stuff... but we've already mentioned WOnder (or Houdah, or similar frameworks) I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Perhaps you held it too long and didn't realise what's happened these last few years ;-) Grin. Chuck -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. Hey, you guys should try finding good WebObjects developers in the UK - employed or otherwise. You are doing unbelievably well if you can find a recruitment agent that has even heard of WebObjects :-) Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Integer i in EOModel creates Long or Integer in EOGeneration
On 09/04/2008, at 2:55 AM, Johan Henselmans wrote: Op 8 apr 2008, om 18:00 heeft Mike Schrag het volgende geschreven: All that matters is that your attribute is NSNumber + i. Given the simplicity of this code, I don't see any way this would mess up except that you're not looking at the model you think you're looking at, you're not looking at the class you think you're looking at, or you're not using the velocity templates you think you're using. I completely agree, but after some hard learned lessons I think I have done all the things that should be done (apart from completely reinstalling the OS, WOLips and WebObjects, and dancing three times around the camp fire while shouting Woa, Woa, Woa!) ROTFLOL... :-)) ... continuing Mike's analogy, you're not dancing around the camp fire you think you're dancing around, or you've got the wrong chant/ tune ;-) with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
Of course we, the nerds, know that WO is doing better than ever. Hell, I've never been happier or more productive with WO and I've been a full time WO programmer since 1998. The stuff that's coming from Mike in WOLips (and Wonder) is nothing short of amazing. And I'm lucky - I control what software I use, and I choose WO. I can, because I don't have to deal with managers that know better. But I completely understand why managers are reluctant to choose WO. Try Googling WebObjects. The first site that comes up is Apple's site (surprise!) - and the first and only article there celebrated it's fourth birthday last month. I mean, if someone comes to you and says check out product X, it's really cool! - you go to the website of the company that makes X, and see that nothing's happened since 2004 Catch my drift? I'm not trying to be negative. I don't have to. Thanks to Mike and Wonder, life is good with WO, and Pierre and his team are doing an excellent job in many regards. But perhaps it's time for Apple to spend like 1 man month on the WO web site (like, making it not look dead) or just plain redirect to the community efforts, where actual stuff is happening. - hugi On 8.4.2008, at 20:40, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hi there, On 09/04/2008, at 4:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. For some time WO5.3.3 has been out... and free. And WO5.4.1 is also out. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-) 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on *any* platform. 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) Hardly anyone uses Xcode, WOBuilder, EOModeler anymore -- especially if you're on Leopard. They use Eclipse/WOLips which is much better and improving in leaps and bounds all the time. http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home - perhaps you/they've not had a look through the wiki... tutorials etc 2. EOF If you're not using EOF - what part of WebObjects were you using? 3. WONDER That's a huge loss - especially given that they're big on non- proprietary frameworks. 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. I do understand where companies (or more specifically, management) are coming from when they get nervous about a certain technology such as WebObjects. For years Apple was quite silent about WebObjects. e.g., Bug reports went unnoticed, updates didn't seem to be a priority. But that has turned around quite dramatically in the last couple of years... ironically beginning with the announcement of the tools deprecation. The community is thriving and Apple (i.e., the employees) are also contributing in significant ways and being proactive about bug reports and taking part in the mailing lists. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. Personally I think Apple has done something about it - and for the better. But as I've explained, you're only left with one argument: proprietary. You can't argue with management, unfortunately, when their on the buzz word bandwagon of open-source despite the maturity of a particular framework in comparison to other stuff... Certainly if it's completely closed and there's no possibility of customising stuff... but we've already mentioned WOnder (or Houdah, or similar frameworks) I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Perhaps you held it too long and didn't realise what's happened these last few years ;-) with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
This is linked from the Apple WO front page: http://developer.apple.com/softwarelicensing/agreements/webobjects.html I thought that $699 thing was dead since, like, 2005? - h On 8.4.2008, at 21:29, Hugi Þórðarson wrote: Of course we, the nerds, know that WO is doing better than ever. Hell, I've never been happier or more productive with WO and I've been a full time WO programmer since 1998. The stuff that's coming from Mike in WOLips (and Wonder) is nothing short of amazing. And I'm lucky - I control what software I use, and I choose WO. I can, because I don't have to deal with managers that know better. But I completely understand why managers are reluctant to choose WO. Try Googling WebObjects. The first site that comes up is Apple's site (surprise!) - and the first and only article there celebrated it's fourth birthday last month. I mean, if someone comes to you and says check out product X, it's really cool! - you go to the website of the company that makes X, and see that nothing's happened since 2004 Catch my drift? I'm not trying to be negative. I don't have to. Thanks to Mike and Wonder, life is good with WO, and Pierre and his team are doing an excellent job in many regards. But perhaps it's time for Apple to spend like 1 man month on the WO web site (like, making it not look dead) or just plain redirect to the community efforts, where actual stuff is happening. - hugi On 8.4.2008, at 20:40, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hi there, On 09/04/2008, at 4:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. For some time WO5.3.3 has been out... and free. And WO5.4.1 is also out. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-) 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on *any* platform. 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) Hardly anyone uses Xcode, WOBuilder, EOModeler anymore -- especially if you're on Leopard. They use Eclipse/WOLips which is much better and improving in leaps and bounds all the time. http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home - perhaps you/they've not had a look through the wiki... tutorials etc 2. EOF If you're not using EOF - what part of WebObjects were you using? 3. WONDER That's a huge loss - especially given that they're big on non- proprietary frameworks. 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. I do understand where companies (or more specifically, management) are coming from when they get nervous about a certain technology such as WebObjects. For years Apple was quite silent about WebObjects. e.g., Bug reports went unnoticed, updates didn't seem to be a priority. But that has turned around quite dramatically in the last couple of years... ironically beginning with the announcement of the tools deprecation. The community is thriving and Apple (i.e., the employees) are also contributing in significant ways and being proactive about bug reports and taking part in the mailing lists. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. Personally I think Apple has done something about it - and for the better. But as I've explained, you're only left with one argument: proprietary. You can't argue with management, unfortunately, when their on the buzz word bandwagon of open-source despite the maturity of a particular framework in comparison to other stuff... Certainly if it's completely closed and there's no possibility of customising stuff... but we've already mentioned WOnder (or Houdah, or similar frameworks) I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Perhaps you held it too long and didn't realise what's happened these last few years ;-) with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be
Re: Leaving WebObjects
I know a bunch of good British WO Developers but they're all gainfully employed over here in the US. in fact, most of them now work for the same company! :-) Alan On Apr 8, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Simon McLean wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. Hey, you guys should try finding good WebObjects developers in the UK - employed or otherwise. You are doing unbelievably well if you can find a recruitment agent that has even heard of WebObjects :-) Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award% 40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
On 09/04/2008, at 7:26 AM, Simon McLean wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. Hey, you guys should try finding good WebObjects developers in the UK - employed or otherwise. You are doing unbelievably well if you can find a recruitment agent that has even heard of WebObjects :-) I suspect that'd true in most places around the world (or outside of the US, or France perhaps). Australia is no different 'WebObjects who'? with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
there was discussion about the subject of googling wo probably 12 months ago and one conclusion drawn then was that hot IT topics get publicity via search engines because there is so much blogged about them. look at RoR - one community web site + lots of blogging = hot property. maybe we should all be saying check out WOnder, it's really cool instead ? Simon On 8 Apr 2008, at 22:29, Hugi Þórðarson wrote: Of course we, the nerds, know that WO is doing better than ever. Hell, I've never been happier or more productive with WO and I've been a full time WO programmer since 1998. The stuff that's coming from Mike in WOLips (and Wonder) is nothing short of amazing. And I'm lucky - I control what software I use, and I choose WO. I can, because I don't have to deal with managers that know better. But I completely understand why managers are reluctant to choose WO. Try Googling WebObjects. The first site that comes up is Apple's site (surprise!) - and the first and only article there celebrated it's fourth birthday last month. I mean, if someone comes to you and says check out product X, it's really cool! - you go to the website of the company that makes X, and see that nothing's happened since 2004 Catch my drift? I'm not trying to be negative. I don't have to. Thanks to Mike and Wonder, life is good with WO, and Pierre and his team are doing an excellent job in many regards. But perhaps it's time for Apple to spend like 1 man month on the WO web site (like, making it not look dead) or just plain redirect to the community efforts, where actual stuff is happening. - hugi On 8.4.2008, at 20:40, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hi there, On 09/04/2008, at 4:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. For some time WO5.3.3 has been out... and free. And WO5.4.1 is also out. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-) 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on *any* platform. 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) Hardly anyone uses Xcode, WOBuilder, EOModeler anymore -- especially if you're on Leopard. They use Eclipse/WOLips which is much better and improving in leaps and bounds all the time. http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home - perhaps you/they've not had a look through the wiki... tutorials etc 2. EOF If you're not using EOF - what part of WebObjects were you using? 3. WONDER That's a huge loss - especially given that they're big on non- proprietary frameworks. 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. I do understand where companies (or more specifically, management) are coming from when they get nervous about a certain technology such as WebObjects. For years Apple was quite silent about WebObjects. e.g., Bug reports went unnoticed, updates didn't seem to be a priority. But that has turned around quite dramatically in the last couple of years... ironically beginning with the announcement of the tools deprecation. The community is thriving and Apple (i.e., the employees) are also contributing in significant ways and being proactive about bug reports and taking part in the mailing lists. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. Personally I think Apple has done something about it - and for the better. But as I've explained, you're only left with one argument: proprietary. You can't argue with management, unfortunately, when their on the buzz word bandwagon of open-source despite the maturity of a particular framework in comparison to other stuff... Certainly if it's completely closed and there's no possibility of customising stuff... but we've already mentioned WOnder (or Houdah, or similar frameworks) I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Perhaps you held it too long
Re: Leaving WebObjects
And the only ones left over here work for the BBC !! + the company I work for, of course :-) Simon On 8 Apr 2008, at 22:39, Alan Ward wrote: I know a bunch of good British WO Developers but they're all gainfully employed over here in the US. in fact, most of them now work for the same company! :-) Alan On Apr 8, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Simon McLean wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. Hey, you guys should try finding good WebObjects developers in the UK - employed or otherwise. You are doing unbelievably well if you can find a recruitment agent that has even heard of WebObjects :-) Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
Now I wonder which one that might be... ;-) On Apr 8, 2008, at 2:39 PM, Alan Ward wrote: I know a bunch of good British WO Developers but they're all gainfully employed over here in the US. in fact, most of them now work for the same company! :-) Alan On Apr 8, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Simon McLean wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. Hey, you guys should try finding good WebObjects developers in the UK - employed or otherwise. You are doing unbelievably well if you can find a recruitment agent that has even heard of WebObjects :-) Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
On 08.04.2008, at 15:07, Chuck Hill wrote: 1. WebObjects is proprietary So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-) Touché! I see this as more of a manufactured justification than a real reason. It always is. Is the management killer argument when they don't have arguments. Idiots. 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on *any* platform Windows is not an officially supported platform. There is the matter of a web server adaptor on Windows. There are options, but it is not a supported, out of box experience. Is it on Mac OS X? Was there working support in the last five years other than from the mailing list? I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. As it is with all good developers. But there are much more morons running around claiming to be experts in technology XY than for WebObjects. cug -- http://www.event-s.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
On 09/04/2008, at 7:36 AM, Hugi Þórðarson wrote: This is linked from the Apple WO front page: http://developer.apple.com/softwarelicensing/agreements/ webobjects.html I thought that $699 thing was dead since, like, 2005? On 8.4.2008, at 21:29, Hugi Þórðarson wrote: ... And I'm lucky - I control what software I use, and I choose WO. I can, because I don't have to deal with managers that know better. But I completely understand why managers are reluctant to choose WO. Try Googling WebObjects. The first site that comes up is Apple's site (surprise!) - and the first and only article there celebrated it's fourth birthday last month. I mean, if someone comes to you and says check out product X, it's really cool! - you go to the website of the company that makes X, and see that nothing's happened since 2004 Catch my drift? I'm not trying to be negative. I don't have to. Thanks to Mike and Wonder, life is good with WO, and Pierre and his team are doing an excellent job in many regards. But perhaps it's time for Apple to spend like 1 man month on the WO web site (like, making it not look dead) or just plain redirect to the community efforts, where actual stuff is happening. Yep - well put. Now be fair... someone did put 'some' effort in... by 'like' re- directing from webobjects.com which used to go to apple.com/webobjects to now point to developer.apple.com/tools/webobjects ;-) with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) ... Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). ... I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. I'm having a lull at the moment if anybody wants to discuss anything... :) cheers. ___ Andrew Lindesay www.lindesay.co.nz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
It is only 2008! Give them another few years to get around to it. On Apr 8, 2008, at 2:36 PM, Hugi Þórðarson wrote: This is linked from the Apple WO front page: http://developer.apple.com/softwarelicensing/agreements/ webobjects.html I thought that $699 thing was dead since, like, 2005? - h On 8.4.2008, at 21:29, Hugi Þórðarson wrote: Of course we, the nerds, know that WO is doing better than ever. Hell, I've never been happier or more productive with WO and I've been a full time WO programmer since 1998. The stuff that's coming from Mike in WOLips (and Wonder) is nothing short of amazing. And I'm lucky - I control what software I use, and I choose WO. I can, because I don't have to deal with managers that know better. But I completely understand why managers are reluctant to choose WO. Try Googling WebObjects. The first site that comes up is Apple's site (surprise!) - and the first and only article there celebrated it's fourth birthday last month. I mean, if someone comes to you and says check out product X, it's really cool! - you go to the website of the company that makes X, and see that nothing's happened since 2004 Catch my drift? I'm not trying to be negative. I don't have to. Thanks to Mike and Wonder, life is good with WO, and Pierre and his team are doing an excellent job in many regards. But perhaps it's time for Apple to spend like 1 man month on the WO web site (like, making it not look dead) or just plain redirect to the community efforts, where actual stuff is happening. - hugi On 8.4.2008, at 20:40, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hi there, On 09/04/2008, at 4:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. For some time WO5.3.3 has been out... and free. And WO5.4.1 is also out. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-) 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on *any* platform. 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) Hardly anyone uses Xcode, WOBuilder, EOModeler anymore -- especially if you're on Leopard. They use Eclipse/WOLips which is much better and improving in leaps and bounds all the time. http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home - perhaps you/they've not had a look through the wiki... tutorials etc 2. EOF If you're not using EOF - what part of WebObjects were you using? 3. WONDER That's a huge loss - especially given that they're big on non- proprietary frameworks. 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. I do understand where companies (or more specifically, management) are coming from when they get nervous about a certain technology such as WebObjects. For years Apple was quite silent about WebObjects. e.g., Bug reports went unnoticed, updates didn't seem to be a priority. But that has turned around quite dramatically in the last couple of years... ironically beginning with the announcement of the tools deprecation. The community is thriving and Apple (i.e., the employees) are also contributing in significant ways and being proactive about bug reports and taking part in the mailing lists. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. Personally I think Apple has done something about it - and for the better. But as I've explained, you're only left with one argument: proprietary. You can't argue with management, unfortunately, when their on the buzz word bandwagon of open-source despite the maturity of a particular framework in comparison to other stuff... Certainly if it's completely closed and there's no possibility of customising stuff... but we've already mentioned WOnder (or Houdah, or similar frameworks) I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Perhaps you held it too long and didn't realise what's happened these last few years ;-) with
Re: Leaving WebObjects
Yeah? You guys can come complain to me when you've tried looking for WO developers in a country with a population of 300.000 (no good bunch of whiners, grumble grumble mumble ;-)) On 8.4.2008, at 21:42, Simon McLean wrote: And the only ones left over here work for the BBC !! + the company I work for, of course :-) Simon On 8 Apr 2008, at 22:39, Alan Ward wrote: I know a bunch of good British WO Developers but they're all gainfully employed over here in the US. in fact, most of them now work for the same company! :-) Alan On Apr 8, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Simon McLean wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. Hey, you guys should try finding good WebObjects developers in the UK - employed or otherwise. You are doing unbelievably well if you can find a recruitment agent that has even heard of WebObjects :-) Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:45 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 08.04.2008, at 15:07, Chuck Hill wrote: Windows is not an officially supported platform. There is the matter of a web server adaptor on Windows. There are options, but it is not a supported, out of box experience. Is it on Mac OS X? Was there working support in the last five years other than from the mailing list? http://www.apple.com/services/technicalsupport/ Aloha, Art ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Google App Engine
To quote Chuck... From: Chuck Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 13 March 2008 9:37:05 AM Sounds suspiciously like I can't... ;-) On 09/04/2008, at 1:53 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I actually looked at this ... I'm not sure if you can access the datastore outside of the python API's running in the cluster. Amazon's is a possibility also, but the query capability is very limited, and joins would have to be implemented inside the adaptor. Google's at least appears to expose a SQL-like API, though I don't know how extensive it is. ms On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! FYI: http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine.html I bet Mike can't write an adaptor for the Datastore in a weekend... ;) with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
IMO, there's no excuse for somebody saying there aren't any good WO developers to hire these days. I know of several who are working on J2EE stuff that would gladly jump to a WO project if one came up. I'm more than happy to be working in WO now, I actually think it's much better now than just a few years ago. At least I feel like there's more WO going on these days (I actually got a WO call from a recruiter the other day, yikes!) Don't give up WO because of all these reasons--do what I do and show them that WO is better for all the right reasons and make them come around. There are lots of reasons to stick with it. On Apr 8, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Andrew Lindesay wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) ... Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). ... I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. I'm having a lull at the moment if anybody wants to discuss anything... :) cheers. ___ Andrew Lindesay www.lindesay.co.nz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jas35%40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
And of course all the old arguments still apply. Like how many J2EE developers (and how long) would it take to put together an online commerce site that could become the #1 music retailer in the world? ;-) You may be able to find them more easily but how productive are they? Alan On Apr 8, 2008, at 4:06 PM, Jeff Smith wrote: IMO, there's no excuse for somebody saying there aren't any good WO developers to hire these days. I know of several who are working on J2EE stuff that would gladly jump to a WO project if one came up. I'm more than happy to be working in WO now, I actually think it's much better now than just a few years ago. At least I feel like there's more WO going on these days (I actually got a WO call from a recruiter the other day, yikes!) Don't give up WO because of all these reasons--do what I do and show them that WO is better for all the right reasons and make them come around. There are lots of reasons to stick with it. On Apr 8, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Andrew Lindesay wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) ... Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). ... I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. I'm having a lull at the moment if anybody wants to discuss anything... :) cheers. ___ Andrew Lindesay www.lindesay.co.nz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jas35%40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award% 40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
#1 music retailer in the world? Do you guys all have a new key combination to insert that statement with ease ? :-) Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
Am 08.04.2008 um 23:47 schrieb Hugi Þórðarson: Yeah? You guys can come complain to me when you've tried looking for WO developers in a country with a population of 300.000 (no good bunch of whiners, grumble grumble mumble ;-)) With your country's beautiful nature who could resist accepting the challenge to migrate ;-) On 8.4.2008, at 21:42, Simon McLean wrote: And the only ones left over here work for the BBC !! + the company I work for, of course :-) Simon On 8 Apr 2008, at 22:39, Alan Ward wrote: I know a bunch of good British WO Developers but they're all gainfully employed over here in the US. in fact, most of them now work for the same company! :-) Alan On Apr 8, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Simon McLean wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject- dev). I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. Hey, you guys should try finding good WebObjects developers in the UK - employed or otherwise. You are doing unbelievably well if you can find a recruitment agent that has even heard of WebObjects :-) Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/werner%40isd.uni-stuttgart.de This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
On Apr 8, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Johann Werner wrote: Am 08.04.2008 um 23:47 schrieb Hugi Þórðarson: Yeah? You guys can come complain to me when you've tried looking for WO developers in a country with a population of 300.000 (no good bunch of whiners, grumble grumble mumble ;-)) With your country's beautiful nature who could resist accepting the challenge to migrate ;-) I grew up in Manitoba, in central Canada. There is a fairly large Icelandic population there, especially around Gimli. We even have an Icelandic Festival: http://www.icelandicfestival.com/ Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire! Chuck and wasting bandwidth -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
On 08.04.2008, at 15:52, Art Isbell wrote: Is it on Mac OS X? Was there working support in the last five years other than from the mailing list? http://www.apple.com/services/technicalsupport/ Oh yeah. I totally forgot about that one ... :-/ Never used it. I know we had other support incidents and they couldn't really help so I never bothered to ask with WebObjects problems ... cug -- http://www.event-s.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
It's done with thought control On Apr 8, 2008, at 4:20 PM, Simon McLean wrote: #1 music retailer in the world? Do you guys all have a new key combination to insert that statement with ease ? :-) Simon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
I think there is a lot of this with many companies doing the same thing. Without Apple support of windows, it does not have much of a future and the unsupported WOLips does not help enough. I have been on and off this list or others like it for years and I read this all the time and the WebObjects knowledge base is very small now. Apple has killed WebObjects and WOLips is just slowing the death. I have been doing WO for over a decade and I have never seen it this weak. I'm working and still doing WO (Yea!) but i'm in the process of moving off WO even-though it was a great technology. WO rest in peace... cheers On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) 2. EOF 3. WONDER 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Pity. :( = Robert = ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/objcman% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
I knew someone would get a WO is dead comment onto the list somehow but I honestly thought it would be in response to the WWDC calendar. That one was out of left field! Mike, I've been working with WO for almost a decade and I've seen it much weaker than it is right now. Alan On Apr 8, 2008, at 5:45 PM, mike deavila wrote: I think there is a lot of this with many companies doing the same thing. Without Apple support of windows, it does not have much of a future and the unsupported WOLips does not help enough. I have been on and off this list or others like it for years and I read this all the time and the WebObjects knowledge base is very small now. Apple has killed WebObjects and WOLips is just slowing the death. I have been doing WO for over a decade and I have never seen it this weak. I'm working and still doing WO (Yea!) but i'm in the process of moving off WO even-though it was a great technology. WO rest in peace... cheers On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) 2. EOF 3. WONDER 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Pity. :( = Robert = ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/objcman% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award% 40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ERXMigration wrong SQL formed
Hi I've been following David LeBer's Screencast on ERXMigration and I continually get problems with the SQL that is formed for MySQL. The SQL has quotes instead of no quotes or `` which MySQL prefers. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. SQL: CREATE TABLE _dbupdater(lockowner VARCHAR(100), modelname VARCHAR(100)NOT NULL, updatelock INTNOT NULL, version INTNOT NULL) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ERXMigration wrong SQL formed
Using 5.4.0 or 5.4.1? On Apr 8, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Ted Archibald wrote: Hi I've been following David LeBer's Screencast on ERXMigration and I continually get problems with the SQL that is formed for MySQL. The SQL has quotes instead of no quotes or `` which MySQL prefers. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. SQL: CREATE TABLE _dbupdater(lockowner VARCHAR(100), modelname VARCHAR(100)NOT NULL, updatelock INTNOT NULL, version INTNOT NULL) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ERXMigration wrong SQL formed
I think 5.4.0, I'll go and update it. BTW, does ERXMigration work with 5.3? ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
migrations with booleans and postgresql
I am working with the examples with using migrations. I want to add a boolean column. Originally, I would have used a varchar and methods to use the strings true and false... Then I found that I can use an external type of bool and a Data Type Boolean - boolean c... How can I use migrations to create the same thing with the migrations? Ted You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Leaving WebObjects
Hi Mike, We, at WEBAPPZ strongly disagree with your opinions: On 8-Apr-08, at 4:45 PM, mike deavila wrote: I think there is a lot of this with many companies doing the same thing. AFIK a lot more companies have been starting to get involved with the WebObjects community in the last year or so. Without Apple support of windows, With Eclipse, WO can be developed from Windows and, since it is JAVA, it can be deployed on Windows. But why would anyone deal with such a virus-prone platform? it does not have much of a future and the unsupported WOLips does not help enough. WOLips is perfectly supported by many friendly people on this list who usually respond within 30 minutes. The support has been very satisfying for us at WEBAPPZ! I have been on and off this list or others like it for years and I read this all the time and the WebObjects knowledge base is very small now. AFIK, again not correct: please read this list. Apple has killed WebObjects and WOLips is just slowing the death. Apple has actually hired more resources, including a friend of us, Pierre, to work on WO full-time. With WO 5.4.1, the WO team has done an excellent job. At last year's WWDC I had the pleasure of having lunch with the entire team. I should really brush up on my French! I have been doing WO for over a decade and I have never seen it this weak. You mean this strong!!! There is now a unique WebObjects conference planned aside from WWDC: http://www.wocommunity.org/wowodc08/ I'm working and still doing WO (Yea!) but i'm in the process of moving off WO even-though it was a great technology. WO rest in peace... It is a great technology and will become even greater; look how quickly WO 5.4.1 came out after WO5.4.0. :) MMM loving it With Kind Regards, Dennis Gaastra, M.B.A.[sfu.ca], B.Sc.[ubc.ca] Chief Technology Officer, WEBAPPZ.COM cheers On Apr 8, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) 2. EOF 3. WONDER 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath. Pity. :( = Robert = ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/objcman%40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects_lists%40webappz.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
Greetings Hugi and the rest of the WO community, I agree Mike and Pierre are doing a good job. I hope that the WO can do me a favor in WO's own interest. I am working on paper intended for journal publication, https://venus.cs.ttu.edu/svn/iqsIntroPaper/introPaper/IQSReviseViaWO.pdf. The favor I would like as is, would members of the WO community like to help peer review this paper and respond with criticism?It is a little hard to have buzz to anyone about WO without academia considering its merit and showing the computer science in it. Thank you, Dan Beatty Ph.D. Student, Computer Science Department Texas Tech University On Tuesday, April 08, 2008, at 04:30PM, Hugi Þórðarson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course we, the nerds, know that WO is doing better than ever. Hell, I've never been happier or more productive with WO and I've been a full time WO programmer since 1998. The stuff that's coming from Mike in WOLips (and Wonder) is nothing short of amazing. And I'm lucky - I control what software I use, and I choose WO. I can, because I don't have to deal with managers that know better. But I completely understand why managers are reluctant to choose WO. Try Googling WebObjects. The first site that comes up is Apple's site (surprise!) - and the first and only article there celebrated it's fourth birthday last month. I mean, if someone comes to you and says check out product X, it's really cool! - you go to the website of the company that makes X, and see that nothing's happened since 2004 Catch my drift? I'm not trying to be negative. I don't have to. Thanks to Mike and Wonder, life is good with WO, and Pierre and his team are doing an excellent job in many regards. But perhaps it's time for Apple to spend like 1 man month on the WO web site (like, making it not look dead) or just plain redirect to the community efforts, where actual stuff is happening. - hugi On 8.4.2008, at 20:40, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hi there, On 09/04/2008, at 4:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote: For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects. We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers. For some time WO5.3.3 has been out... and free. And WO5.4.1 is also out. We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end. Company's reasons for leaving: 1. WebObjects is proprietary So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-) 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on *any* platform. 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). We do NOT use: 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it) Hardly anyone uses Xcode, WOBuilder, EOModeler anymore -- especially if you're on Leopard. They use Eclipse/WOLips which is much better and improving in leaps and bounds all the time. http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home - perhaps you/they've not had a look through the wiki... tutorials etc 2. EOF If you're not using EOF - what part of WebObjects were you using? 3. WONDER That's a huge loss - especially given that they're big on non- proprietary frameworks. 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway) I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects would be more palatable to companies such as mine. I do understand where companies (or more specifically, management) are coming from when they get nervous about a certain technology such as WebObjects. For years Apple was quite silent about WebObjects. e.g., Bug reports went unnoticed, updates didn't seem to be a priority. But that has turned around quite dramatically in the last couple of years... ironically beginning with the announcement of the tools deprecation. The community is thriving and Apple (i.e., the employees) are also contributing in significant ways and being proactive about bug reports and taking part in the mailing lists. Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do something about it. Personally I think Apple has done something about it - and for the better. But as I've explained, you're only left with one argument: proprietary. You can't argue with management, unfortunately, when their on the buzz word bandwagon of open-source despite
Re: Leaving WebObjects
So, how many would it take if the #1 music retail online commerce site was a J2EE project with J2EE devs . 50, 100, 150? On Apr 8, 2008, at 6:13 PM, Alan Ward wrote: And of course all the old arguments still apply. Like how many J2EE developers (and how long) would it take to put together an online commerce site that could become the #1 music retailer in the world? ;-) You may be able to find them more easily but how productive are they? Alan On Apr 8, 2008, at 4:06 PM, Jeff Smith wrote: IMO, there's no excuse for somebody saying there aren't any good WO developers to hire these days. I know of several who are working on J2EE stuff that would gladly jump to a WO project if one came up. I'm more than happy to be working in WO now, I actually think it's much better now than just a few years ago. At least I feel like there's more WO going on these days (I actually got a WO call from a recruiter the other day, yikes!) Don't give up WO because of all these reasons--do what I do and show them that WO is better for all the right reasons and make them come around. There are lots of reasons to stick with it. On Apr 8, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Andrew Lindesay wrote: 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise) ... Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists. (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev). ... I think they meant lack of unemployed, knowledgeable WebObjects programmers. Most (all?) of us are gainfully employed most of the time. Good WO developers are a little hard to find. I'm having a lull at the moment if anybody wants to discuss anything... :) cheers. ___ Andrew Lindesay www.lindesay.co.nz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ jas35%40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leaving WebObjects
It's done with thought control I was going to guess that Apple's mail server randomly inserts that comment into all outgoing emails ... ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EO Programming Guide ?s
Another quick question on EOs if I may. I'm trying to learn all the
in's and out's of the object graph, and am wondering about this code
generated by the EOGenerator, and specifically the call to
editingContext():
public com.netbracketsfw.model.Game createGamesRelationship() {
EOClassDescription eoClassDesc =
EOClassDescription.classDescriptionForEntityName(Game);
EOEnterpriseObject eo =
eoClassDesc.createInstanceWithEditingContext(editingContext(), null);
editingContext().insertObject(eo);
addObjectToBothSidesOfRelationshipWithKey(eo, Games);
return (com.netbracketsfw.model.Game) eo;
}
Which editing context is being retrieved by the editingContext()
call? Since the object is being added to that editingContext, how do
I get a hold of it from outside the class? And finally, why isn't the
editing context passed in, as is done in a lot of the other generated
operations?
Thanks,
Jeff
On Apr 6, 2008, at 11:06 AM, David LeBer wrote:
On 6-Apr-08, at 12:03 PM, David LeBer wrote:
On 6-Apr-08, at 11:14 AM, Jeff Schmitz wrote:
As I read on, I'm guessing that the cache they refer to is
actually the Snapshot of the database described as:
When an EODatabaseContext fetches objects from a database, a
snapshot is recorded of the state of the fetched database row. A
snapshot is a dictionary of a row’s primary keys, class
properties, foreign keys used in relationships that are class
properties, and the attributes of an entity that participate in
optimistic locking.
You can imagine that an application that fetches hundreds of rows
of data builds up a large cache of snapshots.
And furthermore, editing contexts are usually per/session and
Snapshots are usually per/application. Correct?
There is one snapshot are per EOF Stack (centered on an
EOObjectStoreCoordinator)[1], and by default there is one EOF
stack per application - you can create additional EOF stacks, but
snapshots are not automatically synchronized.
That should read: and by default there is one EOF stack per
application instance
[1]http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/download/attachments/196869/enterprise-objects-stack-diagram.png
There is one 'defaultEditingContext' per session, but relying on
the defaultEC alone is not recommended as abandoned edit operations
may result in dirtied data. In general it is recommended that you
'sandbox' editing operations in their own peer or child EC.
Note: If you create your own ECs you must assume responsibility for
correctly locking and unlocking them. For this reason I personally
recommend using Project Wonder and it's EC auto-locking.
;david
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site: http://codeferous.com
blog: http://davidleber.net
profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber
--
Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group:
http://tacow.org
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Re: Leaving WebObjects
and the unsupported WOLips does not help enough For the record, we support WOLips. We have a contract with the iTunes Store, for instance, for this. That standalone Entity Modeler and standalone Velocity EOGenerator -- thank Apple for them, because their contract funded them. If you want support, we're more than happy to offer it. Heck, if you want WO support, we offer that, too. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EO Programming Guide ?s
On 8-Apr-08, at 11:46 PM, Jeff Schmitz wrote:
Another quick question on EOs if I may. I'm trying to learn all the
in's and out's of the object graph, and am wondering about this code
generated by the EOGenerator, and specifically the call to
editingContext():
public com.netbracketsfw.model.Game createGamesRelationship() {
EOClassDescription eoClassDesc =
EOClassDescription.classDescriptionForEntityName(Game);
EOEnterpriseObject eo =
eoClassDesc.createInstanceWithEditingContext(editingContext(), null);
editingContext().insertObject(eo);
addObjectToBothSidesOfRelationshipWithKey(eo, Games);
return (com.netbracketsfw.model.Game) eo;
}
Which editing context is being retrieved by the editingContext() call?
That method creates a new Game objects and adds it to the
games (which should have a lower case g by the way) relationship
of the current EO. So the editingContext() call is the same as
this.editingContext(), and returns the editing context of the current
EO.
Since the object is being added to that editingContext, how do I get
a hold of it from outside the class?
MyObject myEO; //assume exists
EOEditingContext ec1 = myEO.editingContext();
Game game = myEO.createGamesRelationship();
EOEditingContext ec2 = game.editingContext();
ec1 == ec2
And finally, why isn't the editing context passed in, as is done in
a lot of the other generated operations?
Because it doesn't need to. The EO you are calling the method on
already has an EC.
Thanks,
Jeff
On Apr 6, 2008, at 11:06 AM, David LeBer wrote:
On 6-Apr-08, at 12:03 PM, David LeBer wrote:
On 6-Apr-08, at 11:14 AM, Jeff Schmitz wrote:
As I read on, I'm guessing that the cache they refer to is
actually the Snapshot of the database described as:
When an EODatabaseContext fetches objects from a database, a
snapshot is recorded of the state of the fetched database row. A
snapshot is a dictionary of a row’s primary keys, class
properties, foreign keys used in relationships that are class
properties, and the attributes of an entity that participate in
optimistic locking.
You can imagine that an application that fetches hundreds of
rows of data builds up a large cache of snapshots.
And furthermore, editing contexts are usually per/session and
Snapshots are usually per/application. Correct?
There is one snapshot are per EOF Stack (centered on an
EOObjectStoreCoordinator)[1], and by default there is one EOF
stack per application - you can create additional EOF stacks, but
snapshots are not automatically synchronized.
That should read: and by default there is one EOF stack per
application instance
[1]http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/download/attachments/196869/enterprise-objects-stack-diagram.png
There is one 'defaultEditingContext' per session, but relying on
the defaultEC alone is not recommended as abandoned edit
operations may result in dirtied data. In general it is
recommended that you 'sandbox' editing operations in their own
peer or child EC.
Note: If you create your own ECs you must assume responsibility
for correctly locking and unlocking them. For this reason I
personally recommend using Project Wonder and it's EC auto-locking.
;david
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site: http://codeferous.com
blog: http://davidleber.net
profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber
--
Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group:
http://tacow.org
;david
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site: http://codeferous.com
blog: http://davidleber.net
profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber
--
Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group:
http://tacow.org
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Re: migrations with booleans and postgresql
I am working with the examples with using migrations.
I want to add a boolean column. Originally, I would
have used a varchar and methods to use the strings
true and false... Then I found that I can use an
external type of bool and a Data Type Boolean -
boolean c...
How can I use migrations to create the same thing with
the migrations?
newIntBooleanColumn MIGHT work here? I use the varchar(5) variant, so
I've just never tried. You always have the option of using the full
newColumn method, but you'll have to check the jdbc types, etc to see
what ends up being the right mappings.
/**
* Returns a new ERXMigrationColumn with the given attributes. This
method is the
* most general-purpose of the .newXxx methods. If this table
already exists,
* calling the .newXxxColumn methods will immediate execute the SQL
to add the
* columns to the table. If this table is new, however,
calling .newXxxColumn
* will only return a metadata object, and you must call .create() on
* the table.
*
* @param name the name of the column to create
* @param jdbcType the JDBC type of the column (see java.sql.Types)
* @param width the width of the column (or 0 for unspecified)
* @param precision the precision of the column (or 0 for unspecified)
* @param scale the scale of the column (or 0 for unspecified)
* @param allowsNull if true, the column will allow null values
* @return the new ERXMigrationColumn
* @throws SQLException if the column cannot be created
*/
public ERXMigrationColumn newColumn(String name, int jdbcType, int
width, int precision, int scale, boolean allowsNull, String
overrideValueType) throws SQLException {
ms ___
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Re: ERXMigration wrong SQL formed
BTW, does ERXMigration work with 5.3? ERXMigration works ONLY with 5.3 until the next 5.4 update, which fixes SQL generation calls through the old 5.3 API's. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
