Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
I think you said it best here: Some of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and distribute of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will have tens of thousands people that will download said update within hours. Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and download a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. So as an ISP we should get clobbered with connections and network issues on our wireless network to take care of the budgets of all these legal places? Most of these make 10X the profit I do in a year, let them figure out a better way. Afterall, the customer is wanting their content. I limit the crap out of torrents. It is a poorly implemented application for most networks...for wireless networks for sure. I don't care if the government wants to distribute welfare checks across torrents on my network. It will work, although slowly. If the government want's to tell me how I can control my network and makes it law, I will do something else. I am not trading the big corp software support problem for my own at 10X the less profit. Hell, I was squirrel hunting when I started my ISP and I still got a pocket full of shells. Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
And do you believe the same goes for Open source applications? There are more open source being distributed this way then where large for profit companies use it for distribution. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:43 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I think you said it best here: Some of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and distribute of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will have tens of thousands people that will download said update within hours. Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and download a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. So as an ISP we should get clobbered with connections and network issues on our wireless network to take care of the budgets of all these legal places? Most of these make 10X the profit I do in a year, let them figure out a better way. Afterall, the customer is wanting their content. I limit the crap out of torrents. It is a poorly implemented application for most networks...for wireless networks for sure. I don't care if the government wants to distribute welfare checks across torrents on my network. It will work, although slowly. If the government want's to tell me how I can control my network and makes it law, I will do something else. I am not trading the big corp software support problem for my own at 10X the less profit. Hell, I was squirrel hunting when I started my ISP and I still got a pocket full of shells. Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
in the contract the people sign for service it clearly states over usage is not permitted, server setup is not permitted and include file sharing out to the internet. If all providers did this, then your support for bittorrent is fruitless. It would not work. It depends on people uploading(out to the internet) the bits to function. You are supporting the concept but not supporting the application on your network. Our TOS addresses servers also, but I still allow the torrents to work, but at much slower than normal traffic. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 21:23:48 -0600 Absolutely. Why we ourselves don't sell our service as a unlimited service. Nowhere do we ever say unlimited in our marketing material or other material, and in the contract the people sign for service it clearly states over usage is not permitted, server setup is not permitted and include file sharing out to the internet. There is even on the last page a table where all important information such as bandwidth allotment, # of e-mail accounts, monthly cap limits as well charge per GB over usage is denoted by hand depending on service level purchased. We say we will charge you $5/GB over your monthly 10GB limit. But we have never charged this at this point. We have people going way over 10GB but they have not created any issues on our network. No don't believe in unlimited internet and will not be like the mobile broadband providers calling their service unlimited but in small print you can read it's not unlimited and that they can charge or cancel your service for over usage. But reason they call it unlimited is because they have their limited plans that offer say 500MB or 5GB then their unlimited (which really isn't unlimited) I am still amazed that FTC have not slapped them on their hands for this IMO false advertisement. But I guess it comes down to it affects so very few people that for most people it really seems unlimited. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Eje, I always respect your opinons but let me play devils advocate. I agree file-sharing is being forced down ISP's throats, so we have to deal with it. Many compare ISPs to utilities. I come from a background working for and with electric companies. If you overload their network you will be cut off and fined. -RickG On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Not sure about that. Depending on whoms statistics you believe it can be anywhere from about 5% to about 30%. Do we count the people used it in the last x days. How many computers that have the software installed on them. According to stats 2008 17% of US computers had Limewire installed on them. uTorrent only 2.1%. But just because application is installed don't mean it's used or frequently used. Over 35% of internet traffic is fileshare application vs only 32% that is web traffic. If we believe RIAA then the base and usage is way higher. I wouldn't put much behind that 8% figure without knowing how they came to that conclusion. So fileshare usage in US is somewhere between 5% and 25% of all computers/household more bandwidth is being used by fileshare traffic then regular web traffic. Good QoS, traffic shaping and prioritizing means issue becoming less of an issue or even a non issue same goes even without file sharing. Just because it's a problem for the ISP we cannot just block it and pretend it don't exists. It would be like a city claiming that we do not have a traffic congestion system people just need to not drive as much or share a ride. We don't need more traffic lanes or better traffic control. Provide enough bandwidth on the AP, backhaul and upstream feed. Shape the traffic for maximum user experience and everyone is happy. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents 8% of Swedes do peer to peer. I would expect the American population to have a smaller figure. Regardless, can we not agree it's a small figure? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: May not be mainstream, but is a decent percentage. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7978853.stm On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). Basically you start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts once it is done. ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have fast speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give you good speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent download. ISO downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when you deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. Other adoptions BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for distributing popular content with their torrent system Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ albums. The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to distribute hundreds of video recordings of live shows. Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to distribute hundreds of demos and live videos. Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 radio programs. For example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files from RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only platform to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute their music, videos etc. In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show available for download using BitTorrent NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 experimented with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the Creative Commons license using Mininova. Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in BitTorrent support Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker on their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can access picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads. Some of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and distribute of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will have tens of thousands people that will download said update within hours. Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and download a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent basically to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers mostly when a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't mind to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new version is available as well. So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok to totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers pay you to get access to data what they access is after all really not your responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that they have good access and get what they pay for which means control and maintain network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that is good for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and especially when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC/government to step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are allowed or especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it and very upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your hide it in a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user sign it but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in deep waters. I personally allow any fileshare application on my network. I do throttle it and only allow a max of 60% of my available bandwidth for fileshare apps shared over all my customers and on top of it any interactive data transfers is prioritized (dns, mail, http, messengers to mention a few) above fileshare. The advantage to this is that my customer can still download things over fileshare and it will not kill their other usage nor my available bandwidth either. Works nice for them and for me and everyone is happy. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok to totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers pay you to get access to data what they access is after all really not your responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that they have good access and get what they pay for which means control and maintain network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that is good for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and especially when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC/government to step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are allowed or especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it and very upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your hide it in a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user sign it but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in deep waters. I personally allow any fileshare application on my network. I do throttle it and only allow a max of 60% of my available bandwidth for fileshare apps shared over all my customers and on top of it any interactive data transfers is prioritized (dns, mail, http, messengers to mention a few) above fileshare. The advantage to this is that my customer can still download things over fileshare and it will not kill their other usage nor my available bandwidth either. Works nice for them and for me and everyone is happy. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream protocol that needs to be supported. Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you need. *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, without answer, for other examples. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems with the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz APs. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would go under oath saying you torrented? On 2/14/10, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But allowing means no 24 hour downloading. Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via torrent. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Maybe the 75 is way too generous then? Hmm... On 2/14/10, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: And you would be one of those customers I'd accommodate. Your needs are way above average. I do have some techies on my network and I work with them. Most of them are happy if their Xboxes work well. I am of the opinion the entire human gene pool needs a little chlorine. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 4:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bit torrents Surprised that 20 connections works for you. I hit 75 with just my laptop open - just simply SSH, Winbox, bg services like Dropbox and Whatpulse then my browsing habits which include many many tabs in 2-3 browsers. I typically see 5-15 when a user requests a webpage. If it works it works, if your customers are happy that's well above what anyone can ask for. 90% is outstanding. Try pleasing 90% of your family for dinner plans, where to meet for Christmas, etc. These people are in a similar gene pool, too! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Well, yeah, 20 connections. If they were shorter duration, I'd allow more. Most software is polite enough to recognize the limitations and adapt. I've never set mine higher than 20 globally, and adjust by peer if they ask me. What is the maximum thread count you've ever seen on a web page opening? If I can make web pages load real fast, and let grandma upload her pictures to the grandkids and get her email, I've made 90% of my customers extremely happy. The other 10% will have to adapt or live with it. I guess by nature of being rural broadband and wireless, I've engineered for the bursty activity to rule. Mike -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bit torrents Only 20 connections? I've found 75 to be a good number (Butch put that in place ages ago and I've been the only person in 3 years to get up to that). I'm looking at an SM now from a customer that called in this morning...they're using 43 connections. It's one (wireless) laptop on a Linksys into the SM. Each connection is port 80 or 443 except one - 4500 (Cisco VP?) Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: They can do what they want, with the following caveats: They don't open more than 20 connections. The overhead on the pipe allows, while being subject to packet delays if the thread is long duration, and the overhead IS needed. I think the key to network control is to NEVER let ANY user impact the pipe at the peril of others. Mike -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:40 AM To: WISPA General List Cc: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bit torrents I allow it at 4kbps... For the entire network. muhahahahahahah *cough* But seriously. I have a play nice policy. If someone is affecting other users, we call them and ask them to slow down thier up/downloads so they don't piss off thier neighbors. My wife called one of our customers to ask that they stop bittorenting so much. The dad said that no-one was torrenting in the house... Further investigation showed it was the 13year old son downloading movies etc. He was grounded for the rest of his life... Turns out dad was the group program manager for Microsoft's DRM group! (whoops! We sure felt bad) ryan On Feb 13, 2010, at 9:54 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is ready to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the times faster downloads. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not sure where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, charge them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. Once again... I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead of waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted and got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The only Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def trailers/movies - http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_UStag=patches Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix, Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP. Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent? No one uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire. So why choose torrent over HTTP? I just don't see Grandma Bonnie Emailer or Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow example) using torrents. I just don't see the average user installing utorrent to get their blog videos, mp3s or latest content, it's easier to click one link in the browser, save it and use it. I also want to mention that 300GB/mo transfer at home is not high at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). Basically you start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts once it is done. ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have fast speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give you good speed. All I do
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is ready to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the times faster downloads. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not sure where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, charge them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. Once again... I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead of waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted and got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The only Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def trailers/movies - http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_UStag=patches Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix, Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP. Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent? No one uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire. So why choose torrent over HTTP? I just don't see Grandma Bonnie Emailer or Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow example) using torrents. I just don't see the average user installing utorrent to get their blog videos, mp3s or latest content, it's easier to click one link in the browser, save it and use it. I also want to mention that 300GB/mo transfer at home is not high at all. Josh Luthman Office
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
May not be mainstream, but is a decent percentage. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7978853.stm On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is ready to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the times faster downloads. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not sure where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, charge them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. Once again... I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead of waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted and got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The only Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def trailers/movies - http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_UStag=patches Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix, Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP. Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent? No one uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire. So why choose torrent over HTTP? I just don't see Grandma Bonnie Emailer or Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow example) using torrents. I just don't see the average user installing utorrent to get their blog videos
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
8% of Swedes do peer to peer. I would expect the American population to have a smaller figure. Regardless, can we not agree it's a small figure? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: May not be mainstream, but is a decent percentage. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7978853.stm On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is ready to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the times faster downloads. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not sure where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, charge them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. Once again... I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead of waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted and got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The only Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def trailers/movies - http
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Ya, I hear that all the time but guess what I find them downloading? Pirated software, music, and movies. LOL, many will admit it! The real issue is this: You get a phone call from several other customers on the same AP saying why is it so slow? - I want what I pay for. What do you tell them? On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:35 AM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: There are a lot of legal use of torrents. Many games use it for updates (WoW especially comes to mind), many Linux software solutions as well (MikroTik use it, Fedora use it and most other distros can be gotten by Torrent provided by distro owners). This is not the only fileshare app that is used for legal distributions. Napster is another protocol after all Napster gone legal and people are using it to download songs and videos they paid for. Blocking fileshare apps these days can't really legally be blocked anylonger. Throttle them sure but to a reasonable level, people downloading to much a good AUP should handle if they download 24/7 and use a large amount of bandwidth. /Eje --Original Message-- From: Josh Luthman Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org To: WISPA General List ReplyTo: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Sent: Feb 14, 2010 00:02 Can you put up another link for him specifically? Charge him a large install fee to drop the pps on your AP and a bit more monthly for the bandwidth. Ubnt NS5M come to mind. On 2/14/10, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Rick - what kind of AP and CPE? On 2/14/10, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Ya, I hear that all the time but guess what I find them downloading? Pirated software, music, and movies. LOL, many will admit it! The real issue is this: You get a phone call from several other customers on the same AP saying why is it so slow? - I want what I pay for. What do you tell them? On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:35 AM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: There are a lot of legal use of torrents. Many games use it for updates (WoW especially comes to mind), many Linux software solutions as well (MikroTik use it, Fedora use it and most other distros can be gotten by Torrent provided by distro owners). This is not the only fileshare app that is used for legal distributions. Napster is another protocol after all Napster gone legal and people are using it to download songs and videos they paid for. Blocking fileshare apps these days can't really legally be blocked anylonger. Throttle them sure but to a reasonable level, people downloading to much a good AUP should handle if they download 24/7 and use a large amount of bandwidth. /Eje --Original Message-- From: Josh Luthman Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org To: WISPA General List ReplyTo: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Sent: Feb 14, 2010 00:02 Can you put up another link for him specifically? Charge him a large install fee to drop the pps on your AP and a bit more monthly for the bandwidth. Ubnt NS5M come to mind. On 2/14/10, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Thats an idea but he's off a repeater so its affecting the backhaul as well. Maybe I just need better AP BHs? On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Can you put up another link for him specifically? Charge him a large install fee to drop the pps on your AP and a bit more monthly for the bandwidth. Ubnt NS5M come to mind. On 2/14/10, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a month have to be told. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is ready to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the times faster downloads. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not sure where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, charge them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. Once again... I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead of waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted and got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The only Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def trailers/movies - http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_UStag=patches Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix, Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP. Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent? No one uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire. So why choose torrent over HTTP? I just don't see Grandma Bonnie Emailer or Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow example) using torrents. I just don't see the average user installing utorrent to get their blog videos, mp3s
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
WRAP/StarOS. With mix of Tranzeo Ubiquiti CPE. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:17 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Rick - what kind of AP and CPE? On 2/14/10, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Ya, I hear that all the time but guess what I find them downloading? Pirated software, music, and movies. LOL, many will admit it! The real issue is this: You get a phone call from several other customers on the same AP saying why is it so slow? - I want what I pay for. What do you tell them? On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:35 AM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: There are a lot of legal use of torrents. Many games use it for updates (WoW especially comes to mind), many Linux software solutions as well (MikroTik use it, Fedora use it and most other distros can be gotten by Torrent provided by distro owners). This is not the only fileshare app that is used for legal distributions. Napster is another protocol after all Napster gone legal and people are using it to download songs and videos they paid for. Blocking fileshare apps these days can't really legally be blocked anylonger. Throttle them sure but to a reasonable level, people downloading to much a good AUP should handle if they download 24/7 and use a large amount of bandwidth. /Eje --Original Message-- From: Josh Luthman Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org To: WISPA General List ReplyTo: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Sent: Feb 14, 2010 00:02 Can you put up another link for him specifically? Charge him a large install fee to drop the pps on your AP and a bit more monthly for the bandwidth. Ubnt NS5M come to mind. On 2/14/10, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Not sure about that. Depending on whoms statistics you believe it can be anywhere from about 5% to about 30%. Do we count the people used it in the last x days. How many computers that have the software installed on them. According to stats 2008 17% of US computers had Limewire installed on them. uTorrent only 2.1%. But just because application is installed don't mean it's used or frequently used. Over 35% of internet traffic is fileshare application vs only 32% that is web traffic. If we believe RIAA then the base and usage is way higher. I wouldn't put much behind that 8% figure without knowing how they came to that conclusion. So fileshare usage in US is somewhere between 5% and 25% of all computers/household more bandwidth is being used by fileshare traffic then regular web traffic. Good QoS, traffic shaping and prioritizing means issue becoming less of an issue or even a non issue same goes even without file sharing. Just because it's a problem for the ISP we cannot just block it and pretend it don't exists. It would be like a city claiming that we do not have a traffic congestion system people just need to not drive as much or share a ride. We don't need more traffic lanes or better traffic control. Provide enough bandwidth on the AP, backhaul and upstream feed. Shape the traffic for maximum user experience and everyone is happy. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents 8% of Swedes do peer to peer. I would expect the American population to have a smaller figure. Regardless, can we not agree it's a small figure? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: May not be mainstream, but is a decent percentage. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7978853.stm On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Appropriate bandwidth bandwidth shaping with QoS and prioritization and more than likely you don't to tell anyone (well still very possible) but at least you will not get complains from other users on the network that it's slow. The good thing with fileshare it's not a interactive system that require a certain minimum bandwidth such as streaming audio or video. File share bandwidth usage is easy to handle. Streaming audio/video can only be fixed by providing the user with more dedicated bandwidth so less overselling. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a month have to be told. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is ready to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the times faster downloads. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not sure where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, charge them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. Once again... I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead of waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted and got the patch in minutes instead of hours
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Eje, I always respect your opinons but let me play devils advocate. I agree file-sharing is being forced down ISP's throats, so we have to deal with it. Many compare ISPs to utilities. I come from a background working for and with electric companies. If you overload their network you will be cut off and fined. -RickG On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Not sure about that. Depending on whoms statistics you believe it can be anywhere from about 5% to about 30%. Do we count the people used it in the last x days. How many computers that have the software installed on them. According to stats 2008 17% of US computers had Limewire installed on them. uTorrent only 2.1%. But just because application is installed don't mean it's used or frequently used. Over 35% of internet traffic is fileshare application vs only 32% that is web traffic. If we believe RIAA then the base and usage is way higher. I wouldn't put much behind that 8% figure without knowing how they came to that conclusion. So fileshare usage in US is somewhere between 5% and 25% of all computers/household more bandwidth is being used by fileshare traffic then regular web traffic. Good QoS, traffic shaping and prioritizing means issue becoming less of an issue or even a non issue same goes even without file sharing. Just because it's a problem for the ISP we cannot just block it and pretend it don't exists. It would be like a city claiming that we do not have a traffic congestion system people just need to not drive as much or share a ride. We don't need more traffic lanes or better traffic control. Provide enough bandwidth on the AP, backhaul and upstream feed. Shape the traffic for maximum user experience and everyone is happy. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents 8% of Swedes do peer to peer. I would expect the American population to have a smaller figure. Regardless, can we not agree it's a small figure? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: May not be mainstream, but is a decent percentage. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7978853.stm On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
I agree but you cant fix a large network overnight. Especially in this weather! Thanks for your input! On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Appropriate bandwidth bandwidth shaping with QoS and prioritization and more than likely you don't to tell anyone (well still very possible) but at least you will not get complains from other users on the network that it's slow. The good thing with fileshare it's not a interactive system that require a certain minimum bandwidth such as streaming audio or video. File share bandwidth usage is easy to handle. Streaming audio/video can only be fixed by providing the user with more dedicated bandwidth so less overselling. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a month have to be told. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is ready to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the times faster downloads. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not sure where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, charge them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Not sure of the capabilities of StarOS but Ubnt and Tranzeo can't help you limit connections. You may need to invest in some Routerboards or something more expensive. You said you had Butch's QOS application - do you already have some Mikrotik stuff in place? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:58 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: I agree but you cant fix a large network overnight. Especially in this weather! Thanks for your input! On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Appropriate bandwidth bandwidth shaping with QoS and prioritization and more than likely you don't to tell anyone (well still very possible) but at least you will not get complains from other users on the network that it's slow. The good thing with fileshare it's not a interactive system that require a certain minimum bandwidth such as streaming audio or video. File share bandwidth usage is easy to handle. Streaming audio/video can only be fixed by providing the user with more dedicated bandwidth so less overselling. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a month have to be told. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is ready to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
I have a MT firewall. Can you run Butch's QOS on MT APs CPE? On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Not sure of the capabilities of StarOS but Ubnt and Tranzeo can't help you limit connections. You may need to invest in some Routerboards or something more expensive. You said you had Butch's QOS application - do you already have some Mikrotik stuff in place? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:58 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: I agree but you cant fix a large network overnight. Especially in this weather! Thanks for your input! On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Appropriate bandwidth bandwidth shaping with QoS and prioritization and more than likely you don't to tell anyone (well still very possible) but at least you will not get complains from other users on the network that it's slow. The good thing with fileshare it's not a interactive system that require a certain minimum bandwidth such as streaming audio or video. File share bandwidth usage is easy to handle. Streaming audio/video can only be fixed by providing the user with more dedicated bandwidth so less overselling. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a month have to be told. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to be happy. Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate Bay. So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Absolutely. Why we ourselves don't sell our service as a unlimited service. Nowhere do we ever say unlimited in our marketing material or other material, and in the contract the people sign for service it clearly states over usage is not permitted, server setup is not permitted and include file sharing out to the internet. There is even on the last page a table where all important information such as bandwidth allotment, # of e-mail accounts, monthly cap limits as well charge per GB over usage is denoted by hand depending on service level purchased. We say we will charge you $5/GB over your monthly 10GB limit. But we have never charged this at this point. We have people going way over 10GB but they have not created any issues on our network. No don't believe in unlimited internet and will not be like the mobile broadband providers calling their service unlimited but in small print you can read it's not unlimited and that they can charge or cancel your service for over usage. But reason they call it unlimited is because they have their limited plans that offer say 500MB or 5GB then their unlimited (which really isn't unlimited) I am still amazed that FTC have not slapped them on their hands for this IMO false advertisement. But I guess it comes down to it affects so very few people that for most people it really seems unlimited. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Eje, I always respect your opinons but let me play devils advocate. I agree file-sharing is being forced down ISP's throats, so we have to deal with it. Many compare ISPs to utilities. I come from a background working for and with electric companies. If you overload their network you will be cut off and fined. -RickG On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Not sure about that. Depending on whoms statistics you believe it can be anywhere from about 5% to about 30%. Do we count the people used it in the last x days. How many computers that have the software installed on them. According to stats 2008 17% of US computers had Limewire installed on them. uTorrent only 2.1%. But just because application is installed don't mean it's used or frequently used. Over 35% of internet traffic is fileshare application vs only 32% that is web traffic. If we believe RIAA then the base and usage is way higher. I wouldn't put much behind that 8% figure without knowing how they came to that conclusion. So fileshare usage in US is somewhere between 5% and 25% of all computers/household more bandwidth is being used by fileshare traffic then regular web traffic. Good QoS, traffic shaping and prioritizing means issue becoming less of an issue or even a non issue same goes even without file sharing. Just because it's a problem for the ISP we cannot just block it and pretend it don't exists. It would be like a city claiming that we do not have a traffic congestion system people just need to not drive as much or share a ride. We don't need more traffic lanes or better traffic control. Provide enough bandwidth on the AP, backhaul and upstream feed. Shape the traffic for maximum user experience and everyone is happy. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents 8% of Swedes do peer to peer. I would expect the American population to have a smaller figure. Regardless, can we not agree it's a small figure? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: May not be mainstream, but is a decent percentage. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7978853.stm On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Yes you can if you want to. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 9:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I have a MT firewall. Can you run Butch's QOS on MT APs CPE? On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Not sure of the capabilities of StarOS but Ubnt and Tranzeo can't help you limit connections. You may need to invest in some Routerboards or something more expensive. You said you had Butch's QOS application - do you already have some Mikrotik stuff in place? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:58 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: I agree but you cant fix a large network overnight. Especially in this weather! Thanks for your input! On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Appropriate bandwidth bandwidth shaping with QoS and prioritization and more than likely you don't to tell anyone (well still very possible) but at least you will not get complains from other users on the network that it's slow. The good thing with fileshare it's not a interactive system that require a certain minimum bandwidth such as streaming audio or video. File share bandwidth usage is easy to handle. Streaming audio/video can only be fixed by providing the user with more dedicated bandwidth so less overselling. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a month have to be told. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the problem. I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this list. On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So no need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the link torrent file download and download client is launched. You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it the hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I downloaded been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter how new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source community by seeding the distro. I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and well honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a useful mirror. And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I gave it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then are we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or connection limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and with every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will continue to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then downloaded the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't going to be happy. Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data storage service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to figure out that you're
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
You might be off on your tens of thousands within hours bit with WoW... There's 11.5M as of the end of 2008 that use the service and most are addicts... I'd be wiling to say 2M within the first couple hours and 6M in the first day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 1:57 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). Basically you start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts once it is done. ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have fast speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give you good speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent download. ISO downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when you deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. Other adoptions BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for distributing popular content with their torrent system Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ albums. The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to distribute hundreds of video recordings of live shows. Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to distribute hundreds of demos and live videos. Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 radio programs. For example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files from RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only platform to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute their music, videos etc. In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show available for download using BitTorrent NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 experimented with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the Creative Commons license using Mininova. Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in BitTorrent support Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker on their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can access picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads. Some of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and distribute of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will have tens of thousands people that will download said update within hours. Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and download a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent basically to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers mostly when a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't mind to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new version is available as well. So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok to totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers pay you to get access to data what they access is after all really not your responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that they have good access and get what they pay for which means control and maintain network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that is good for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and especially when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC/government to step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are allowed or especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it and very upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your hide it in a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user sign it but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in deep waters. I personally allow any fileshare application on my network. I do throttle it and only allow a max of 60% of my available
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
They announced they broke 12M actually. On 2/15/10, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: You might be off on your tens of thousands within hours bit with WoW... There's 11.5M as of the end of 2008 that use the service and most are addicts... I'd be wiling to say 2M within the first couple hours and 6M in the first day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 1:57 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). Basically you start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts once it is done. ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have fast speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give you good speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent download. ISO downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when you deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. Other adoptions BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for distributing popular content with their torrent system Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ albums. The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to distribute hundreds of video recordings of live shows. Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to distribute hundreds of demos and live videos. Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 radio programs. For example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files from RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only platform to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute their music, videos etc. In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show available for download using BitTorrent NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 experimented with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the Creative Commons license using Mininova. Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in BitTorrent support Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker on their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can access picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads. Some of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and distribute of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will have tens of thousands people that will download said update within hours. Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and download a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent basically to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers mostly when a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't mind to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new version is available as well. So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok to totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers pay you to get access to data what they access is after all really not your responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that they have good access and get what they pay for which means control and maintain network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that is good for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and especially when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC/government to step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are allowed or especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it and very upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your hide it in a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user sign it but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in deep waters. I personally allow any fileshare
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
12M subscribers * $15 per month=$180M per month Assuming 50% for wages and server/bandwidth costs that is still $90M per month. Another 20% for layers and 10% for the management and there is still $36M per month. Even if there was only 1% left over that is $1.8M per month to play with just from WoW. With that much coming in it should be better than it is. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: They announced they broke 12M actually. On 2/15/10, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: You might be off on your tens of thousands within hours bit with WoW... There's 11.5M as of the end of 2008 that use the service and most are addicts... I'd be wiling to say 2M within the first couple hours and 6M in the first day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 1:57 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). Basically you start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts once it is done. ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have fast speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give you good speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent download. ISO downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when you deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. Other adoptions BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for distributing popular content with their torrent system Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ albums. The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to distribute hundreds of video recordings of live shows. Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to distribute hundreds of demos and live videos. Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 radio programs. For example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files from RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only platform to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute their music, videos etc. In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show available for download using BitTorrent NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 experimented with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the Creative Commons license using Mininova. Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in BitTorrent support Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker on their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can access picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads. Some of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and distribute of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will have tens of thousands people that will download said update within hours. Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and download a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent basically to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers mostly when a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't mind to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new version is available as well. So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok to totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers pay you to get access to data what they access is after all really not your responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that they have good access and get what they pay for which means control and maintain network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that is good for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and especially when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
I said that at 1M subscribers. Diablo II was 50 one time and seemed to be better made to me. On 2/15/10, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.com wrote: 12M subscribers * $15 per month=$180M per month Assuming 50% for wages and server/bandwidth costs that is still $90M per month. Another 20% for layers and 10% for the management and there is still $36M per month. Even if there was only 1% left over that is $1.8M per month to play with just from WoW. With that much coming in it should be better than it is. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: They announced they broke 12M actually. On 2/15/10, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: You might be off on your tens of thousands within hours bit with WoW... There's 11.5M as of the end of 2008 that use the service and most are addicts... I'd be wiling to say 2M within the first couple hours and 6M in the first day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 1:57 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). Basically you start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts once it is done. ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have fast speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give you good speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent download. ISO downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when you deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. Other adoptions BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for distributing popular content with their torrent system Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ albums. The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to distribute hundreds of video recordings of live shows. Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to distribute hundreds of demos and live videos. Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 radio programs. For example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files from RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only platform to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute their music, videos etc. In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show available for download using BitTorrent NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 experimented with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the Creative Commons license using Mininova. Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in BitTorrent support Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker on their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can access picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads. Some of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and distribute of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will have tens of thousands people that will download said update within hours. Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and download a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent basically to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers mostly when a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't mind to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new version is available as well. So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok to totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers pay you to get access to data what they access is after all really not your responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that they have good access and get what they pay for which means control and maintain network stability and speed by managing
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Can you put up another link for him specifically? Charge him a large install fee to drop the pps on your AP and a bit more monthly for the bandwidth. Ubnt NS5M come to mind. On 2/14/10, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would go under oath saying you torrented? On 2/14/10, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But allowing means no 24 hour downloading. Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via torrent. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
There are a lot of legal use of torrents. Many games use it for updates (WoW especially comes to mind), many Linux software solutions as well (MikroTik use it, Fedora use it and most other distros can be gotten by Torrent provided by distro owners). This is not the only fileshare app that is used for legal distributions. Napster is another protocol after all Napster gone legal and people are using it to download songs and videos they paid for. Blocking fileshare apps these days can't really legally be blocked anylonger. Throttle them sure but to a reasonable level, people downloading to much a good AUP should handle if they download 24/7 and use a large amount of bandwidth. /Eje --Original Message-- From: Josh Luthman Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org To: WISPA General List ReplyTo: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents Sent: Feb 14, 2010 00:02 Can you put up another link for him specifically? Charge him a large install fee to drop the pps on your AP and a bit more monthly for the bandwidth. Ubnt NS5M come to mind. On 2/14/10, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems with the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz APs. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would go under oath saying you torrented? On 2/14/10, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But allowing means no 24 hour downloading. Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via torrent. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream protocol that needs to be supported. Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you need. *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, without answer, for other examples. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems with the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz APs. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would go under oath saying you torrented? On 2/14/10, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But allowing means no 24 hour downloading. Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via torrent. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Talk to Butch for queuing, Talk to Mac /or Jeremy for packet and connection limiting. Both for Bandwidth Management. Remember, you can't hide packets in a vpn... -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream protocol that needs to be supported. Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you need. *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, without answer, for other examples. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems with the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz APs. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would go under oath saying you torrented? On 2/14/10, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But allowing means no 24 hour downloading. Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via torrent. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
I also get TV shows from the UK and anime, with English subtitles, a couple of days after it airs in Japan. The reason I get My Linux ISOs via bittorrent, is that I get them on release day and the HTTP/FTP servers go down. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream protocol that needs to be supported. Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you need. *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, without answer, for other examples. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems with the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz APs. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would go under oath saying you torrented? On 2/14/10, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But allowing means no 24 hour downloading. Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via torrent. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
Your example is illegally obtaining TV shows and not using a second HTTP instead of torrent? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: I also get TV shows from the UK and anime, with English subtitles, a couple of days after it airs in Japan. The reason I get My Linux ISOs via bittorrent, is that I get them on release day and the HTTP/FTP servers go down. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream protocol that needs to be supported. Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you need. *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, without answer, for other examples. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.comwrote: I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems with the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz APs. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would go under oath saying you torrented? On 2/14/10, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But allowing means no 24 hour downloading. Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via torrent. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents Even though our AUP TOS does not allow it, I have a customer demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am I being over zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows them? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
