[WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?
Hello group, It's another brain fade moment for me, so I hope someone can help me. In IE7, the nav buttons are showing a black underline when the mouse hovers over them, even though I have specifically put text-decoration:none in the IE style sheet. (In other browsers the buttons do what they're supposed to) Can anyone see what I've missed please? http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/ Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0414 622 847 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion 9 hosting from A$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Disappearing legends in IE 6
Hi Christian, Put a ' margin : 0;' style to your legend tag and you're home free.. Regards, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: maandag 17 november 2008 17:20 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Disappearing legends in IE 6 Hello list. I just put up a new design at http://christianmontoya.com and I'm just trying to make it work in IE 6. The one problem that's left is that the legends on my fieldsets don't show up. If you view it in IE 6 you'll see just white spaces in place of them. Can anyone suggest a fix? Thanks in advance. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1793 - Release Date: 16-11- 2008 19:58 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Flash on top of Flash
Hello, Anthony.
Set the object's and embed's parameter wmode to transparent. like:
param name=wmode value=transparent
embed wmode=transparent
Hi,
I have two flash files - 1 contains a flash menu the other contains an
animation. We are trying to position them on top of each other...
The flash menu is contained in a DIV with the following css..
.top_nav {position:absolute; top:0; left:0px; z-index:1000;}
The other flash animation file is contained in an iframe which is
contained in a DIV and the css for both the Iframe and DIV container are
as follows...
#ourrange_flash {width:1000px; height:420px;}
#ourrange_flash iframe {width:1000px; height:420px; padding:0; border:0;
margin:0; z-index:0;}
Firefox loads this page correctly, that is the menu on top of the
animation.
In IE, Safari and Opera the menu loads but appears BEHIND the animation.
I would have thought position:absolute with z-index has authority.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Anthony
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[WSG] Force landscape on a print style sheet?
I'm doing a print style sheet for a reporting system, and I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to force a printer to print in landscape orientation using CSS. I know there are postscript and PCL commands to switch the printer to landscape, but I'm not sure if you can add PCL Commands to the print stream from the browser. Can you? Anyone know how that would be done? Alternatively, how would you force the page to print in landscape? At the moment I have a workaround, in that the user calls up the report to the browser, then goes to print preview and selects print preferences to print in landscape, then sends the job to print. But I'd like to make it automatic if I can. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] RE:
Your penis is as hard to find as an itty bitty needle. With Penis Enlarge Patch it will be shown even from the distance. http://www.koppalt.com/?wluhmnlbd Turn your penis from a peasant to a Nobel. bring down a subject with it at the present German range -- you only cripple German novel -- which a slight parenthesis in it. I will make a perfectlyliteral translation, and throw in the parenthesis-marks and some hyphens for *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] RE:
Do you want to pleasure your partner like noone else has before? Try Penis Enlarge Patch. http://www.netopr.com/?velbgmvxsv Your penis will make more shadow than the tree. not be warned, it will at last either soften his brain or petrify it.Personal pronouns and adjectives are a fruitful nuisance in this language,and should have been left out. For instance, the same sound, SIE, means YOU, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] RE:
Penis Enlarge Patch - she will be sore for weeks. http://www.leaxtir.com/?atdagrviuzoyo *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] RE:
When you start to realize that you need to change your size, try Penis Enlarge Patch. http://www.studkin.biz/?yrujdmpzgnm With Penis Enlarge Patch your confidence will be shown. Seventhly, I would discard the Parenthesis. Also the reparenthesis, the *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Javascript image rotator
Hi Paul
Hmm, I have seen a few examples of people using Jscript only to do it.
I don't need to modify the image, just reload a new one every five
seconds or so. I can find scripts to do this, just need the fade bit I
guess.
Apparently, I can't use Flash for this.
I recently used jquery [1] for this, and a plug in called innerfade [2],
at http://reviews.somuchworld.com
Innerfade iterates through a list of items. For browsers with javascript
off, quick fix for me was to set all but the first item's visibility to
hidden. A nicer fix might be to pull the additional items through via
ajax.
Once jquery and innerfade were in place, this is the additional javascript
I wrote:
/**
* Attach to #random_town, and fade in towns
*/
$(document).ready(function () {
$('#random_town .town').css('display', 'block');
$('#random_town').innerfade({ speed: 4000, timeout: 6000, type:
'sequence', containerheight: 'auto' });
});
[1] http://jquery
[2] http://medienfreunde.com/lab/innerfade/
PS. The somuchworld site is a work in progress, albeit live.
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[WSG] input/text random background color in IE?
Why is it that IE turns the background of some input/text elements to light yellow? I can't find any information as to why or how it's doing this...and I want to stop it. Anybody know what this is about? Thanks, v ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] input/text random background color in IE?
o, autofill...i bet it has to do with how i name my form elements... ok, then it makes sense and 'no', i wouldn't want to turn that off. i don't see it actually, i'm on a mac. when i'm on a pc testing stuff i see this though and i've always wondered what it is... the mystery has been demystified...thanks... On Jun 27, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Ben Curtis wrote: Why is it that IE turns the background of some input/text elements to light yellow? I can't find any information as to why or how it's doing this...and I want to stop it. Keep in mind when you want to stop normal behavior of the browser, if you succeed then people that expect that behavior will become disoriented and perhaps will believe that your site is broken. In essence, the answer to your question may be IE turns some input/text elements to light yellow because the user wants them that way. You haven't given us enough background to understand if this general rule applies to your circumstance. I'm not sure about IE, but Safari does this to indicate which fields were filled in by the auto-fill and which the user had modified. Without this distinction, the users may submit more incomplete or inaccurate forms. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] problem with utf-8 page encoding
I see that it is possible, but how many folks use it? Like an individual or a small business...is it common enough (yet)?
The below links aren't working in Safari...
I've been researching how alot of open source cms's and blog tools deal with this issue and they don't. Most of them either have some kind of conversion map (that is completely inadequate for the task) or they create urls that have little to do with the page title. For instance...
http://www.site.com/1-eaeraceceac.php // = the eaeraceceac is a botched character conversion from Chinese
or
http://www.site.com/page0001.php // = no reference to the page title whatsoever...
The Chinese websites I have looked up have latin1 style urls...no sign of Chinese text anywhere in there.
Aside of requiring a Chinese to enter in a latin page name for an article/entry/page I can't see any way possible to create urls (clean urls) using Chinese (non-latin) characters.
Ideas?
thanks...v
On Jun 7, 2005, at 1:11 AM, tee wrote:
Hi Vaska, as the w3c links Anders provided, it can. However I will be very
skeptical to using it as obviously browsers are not advance enough to handle
it, but then it maybe the server issue too. Sorry, I am too ignorant on this
matter to tell you anything more.
I did a test on Safari, FF, IE and Opera by entering domain in Chinese, only
FF picks up the address. Wonder how it works on PC browsers.
You may like to try:
Simplified Chinese sites:
A Chinese famous seach engine baidu.com> = ~{0Y6H~}
Or this 163.com> = ~{RWMx~}
Ebay China ebay.com.cn> = ~{RWH$~}
Traditional sites:
tw.yahoo.com> = ~{FfD~}
yam.com> = ~{^,JmLY~}
These are domains but the one Anders provided does have a path in Japanese
character, and it works in FF.
http://www.w3.org/International/tests/sec-iri-3
tee
From: Vaska.WSG [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:32:08 +0200
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] problem with utf-8 page encoding
tee, or really any Chinese person on this list,
one thing that I've been cuious about is how do you deal with creating
urls. this could sound extremely naive and i'm sorry for that. it's
my understanding that use of latin1 characters only is allowed to make
a url...or create folders etc...
http://www.this-is-latin1-text.com/and-this-is-a-folder/and-this-is-a-
filename.php
this wouldn't be possible...
http://www.~{6(;[EMAIL PROTECTED]~{Q!Pc~}.com/~{6(;[EMAIL PROTECTED]/~{6(;[EMAIL PROTECTED].php
i've been having to find a way to deal with this issue and so far i've
only come up with workarounds that just don't seem very user-friendly.
i was looking at conversion maps but it became a completely crazy
exercise...
v
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Re: [WSG] problem with utf-8 page encoding
You really need to give us the URL of the page that this occurs on so others can test it. It's on my dev server. If you really want to see a test page (where the images aren't working and alot of the css is totally in outerspace right now) it's here. http://www.vaska.com/wsg/08test.php We also need to know os/ver and browser/ver it occurs on to emulate it. OSX 10.3.9...Safari, Firefox, Mozilla, IE... Opening it as a local file is not a good test Apparently so, because the test, at least for me, works when it's on my server. I should have thought of this one. There are a few validation errors right now as well... Thanks for the advice Peter. I think I'm on the right track...just trying to get over some of the finer details so I can move forward (I'm competely rebuilding something that I've been using with clients for years en route to making it an open source thing). v
[WSG] tr onmouseover or class:hover
I've been fishing for an answer to this but I can't find one.
I know I've read somewhere in the past that if you want to change the
color of a table row TR I need to use:
class='transparent' onmouseover=this.className='over';
onmouseout=this.className='transparent';
I would certainly prefer to use something along the lines of (sans
mouseoverout action):
.transparent:hover
{
background: #00;
}
It certainly does work in modern browsers, but isn't there some issue
with IE (per the usual) that prevents this route from being more
commonly used? What are the limitations I need to be aware, etc...
The discussion about tables isn't relevant here...I'm using tabular
data...ahem...
Thanks, v
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Re: [WSG] problem with utf-8 page encoding
tee, or really any Chinese person on this list,
one thing that I've been cuious about is how do you deal with creating urls. this could sound extremely naive and i'm sorry for that. it's my understanding that use of latin1 characters only is allowed to make a url...or create folders etc...
http://www.this-is-latin1-text.com/and-this-is-a-folder/and-this-is-a-filename.php
this wouldn't be possible...
http://www.~{6(;[EMAIL PROTECTED]~{Q!Pc~}.com/~{6(;[EMAIL PROTECTED]~{Q!Pc~}/~{6(;[EMAIL PROTECTED]~{Q!Pc~}.php
i've been having to find a way to deal with this issue and so far i've only come up with workarounds that just don't seem very user-friendly.
i was looking at conversion maps but it became a completely crazy exercise...
v
Re: [WSG] Character encoding
For some reason, I feel I have to escape every character that is not a letter or number. I was feeling the same, and working on it, when this thread arrived. At the time it appeared I was looking up numeric entity lists in Cyrillic and adapting them to a conversion_map function (for PHP). I was arriving at the conclusion that it was completely crazy to go this route...because Chinese was on the horizon. Thanks...v ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] problem with utf-8 page encoding
I'm not sure what the deal is, but when I bring up a page in my system it doesn't encode properly at first. I have to go the browser options and change it to utf-8. The funny thing is that utf-8 is my default as set in all my browsers.
This is my header...
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd>
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml xml:lang='en' lang='en'>
head>
title>Page title/title>
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 />
etc...etc...
And in my document I am specifying the correct language as needed...yes, I know it's a table but this is tabular data...I'm just trying to show the pertinent parts here...
td width='60%' class='cell-doc' xml:lang='zh' lang='zh'>~{6(~} ~{;[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~{4N~}~{Q!Pc~}/td>
I don't have any output buffering or anything of the kind going on here. Is there some on the surface here that I'm missing?
Thanks, v
Re: [WSG] Regarding foreign languages
Vaska, you¨re still mixing those: I think you are mixing two things which should be separated. The first problem is the language of the page (defined in the header) The second problem is how to create a non-ascii character He is right. I've already identified that I will be using utf-8. And I've accepted use of xml:lang/lang: in both the header and on the individual form elements (as necessary) - what am I still mixing on this issue? Am I missing something more obvious? No, the browser will. It will send the characters in the encoding (charset, not language!) of the page. Thanks, I understand what's going on with this now. I was really just curious how it was dealt with - I don't believe it changes anything on the server-end (and didn't think it would). You mention the use of Unicode...perhaps I'm way out there on this point but am I not allowed to assume that the user will be using unicode to input their data? I know it's a web browser, but is there some way I can restrict their input to unicode (the page xml:lang that is)? If they enter something else, it likely won't work. Perhaps this is where I'm still 'mixing' things up? v ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Regarding foreign languages
Am I allowed to ask about non-CSS things here? In particular, I'm trying to deal with how to handle inputs of Chinese characters via some forms. What I'm wondering is... - will utf-8 suffice? - do I need to specify html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang='en' lang='en' as ZN? is it necessary? Isn't utf-8 good enough? And further, I'm not sure how to handle Chinese text on the validation end of things, but this might be a subject for a different list altogether. I'll eventually have to deal with some other languages but Chinese will likely be one of the more difficult ones. ??? I'll see what happens when I send this...v ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Regarding foreign languages
It's for a multilanguage site and base language will be English. Everything on the form will be English except the actual input (textarea). Would it hurt anything if I just kept the lang declaration as EN in the header? Or, since the input will be Chinese should it be ZN? Or, do I need to be more specific and delcare lang=ZN on the textarea itself? I was wondering though...since it's ALL utf-8 it might not be necessary to declare lang=whatever at all? Out of curiousity, I'm not sure why we need to declare lang and xml:lang since utf-8 (I believe) is all we really need? On Jun 2, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Ben Ward wrote: The language in your html element should be the language of the page. If you have a section of the page (be that a parapraph, form, anything) which uses a different language then you can add a lang and xml:lang attribute to that as well. HTML is generally rather good at doing multi-lingual documents. I could do this on a page (this is condensed down and is missing some attributes, but I just want to show the xml:lang/lang behaviour): html xml:lang=en-gb !-- the page is in English -- head/head body form xml:lang=fr !-- this form is in french -- /form !-- outside of the form, the language is still English -- /body /html The language declaration doesn't restrict the characters you can use in forms, regardless. So you don't need to add a language attribute to your sub-elements unless you are explicitly requiring Chinese input. Obviously if it's an all chinese site then it would make sense to change the language value in the html element itself. Ben ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
It's a pretty solution, but it doesn't word-wrap...at least not in Safari. Make your browser window thinner and see what happens? What I'm doing is no different except that I'm going through the trouble of having php count the number of tabs and then using that information to insert the correct class. If there are more than 5 \t's I just stop it there. This information is coming out of a database so it's no trouble going this route... Oh, I'm not using pre either...v On Jun 1, 2005, at 1:08 AM, Lachlan Hardy wrote: Vaska.WSG wrote: I've been reading around (via Google) and I find others with similar problems but no solution. Is there a solution to this? Whenever I present code in a page, I use something similar to the method Simon Willison put forward by in July 2002: http://development.incutio.com/simon/numbered-code-experiment.html Works for me. I've yet to find a better method (although if someone has one...) Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
I'm trying to make a page that will display some source code. The PRE tag works very will with retaining \t and \n but I can not find a way to make it wrap words. Words fly off the monitor... I've been reading around (via Google) and I find others with similar problems but no solution. Is there a solution to this? Help... ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Thanks for the discussion folks...
Actually, because I can't really find a way to get by on the word-wrap
issue and also the use of indents (as they appear in the code) I've
done all of this in php without code or pre. It uses nbsp;'s for the
tabs (preg_replace(/\t/...). Aside from creating a few more regex
rules to deal with inputting slashes and the like, it seems to work
well enough.
What I'm doing is meant purely for presentation...it's a fast way for a
person to view a script and try to determine where a bug might live
(via the line number).
If you are curious this is what an output looks like (I'm not sure if
the nbsp;'s will encode when I send this email). If there is time I
might add some simple syntax highlighting rules to the script...
strong1/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;lt;?phpbr /
strong2/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;br /
strong3/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;function
rowNumber($i)br /
strong4/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;{br /
strong5/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;if ($i lt; 10) {br /
strong6/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;return
quot;lt;stronggt;$ilt;/stronggt;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;
amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;quot;;br /
strong7/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;} elseif (($i gt;= 10) amp;amp; ($i lt;= 999)) {br /
strong8/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;return
quot;lt;stronggt;$ilt;/stronggt;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;
amp;nbsp;quot;;br /
strong9/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;} else {br /
strong10/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;
nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;return
quot;lt;stronggt;$ilt;/stronggt;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;amp;nbsp;
quot;;br /
strong11/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;}br
/
strong12/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;}br /
strong13/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;br
/
strong14/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;?gt;br /
On May 31, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Patrick Lauke wrote:
designer
Surely, the fact that pre denotes 'preformatting' means that the
formatting has occurred 'somewhere else' and not in the body
of the html.
So, in that sense, in what way is pre 'presentational' any
more than all
CSS is 'presentational?
Aeh...I'm not quite following your reasoning here. But to pick up
just on the last bit: CSS is *meant* for presentation, while HTML
should only mark up *content*. That's where I see the problem:
pre denotes how something looks, rather than what it is (which
is the whole idea of semantic markup).
To take a simple example, if I set
CSS rules in
defining H1 characteristics, is using that h1 tag in the
html 'purely
presentational' or is it different to pre?
You'd use h1 only if the text you're marking up is an actual
heading (unless you use h1 to mark up oh, i want that text nice
and big, in which case you're abusing h1 for presentational
purposes).
But to reiterate: h1 has semantic connotations - the content it
marks up is a heading. pre, on the other hand, does not provide
any indication of what's inside, only how it's displayed.
Sometimes, pre strikes me just like a css declaration,
except that you
don't have to declare what the formatting is in the header :-)
And that's a bad thing; we want separation of content and presentation.
Patrick
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
I think this will do the trick. It's a little odd, and I'll have to
test this out more, doing a preg_match_all to determine how many \t's
there are (so we know what class='tab$number' to use), but I think in
most instances this will suffice.
Thanks for pointing this solution out...v
On May 31, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Ingo Chao wrote:
Vaska.WSG schrieb:
Actually, because I can't really find a way to get by on the
word-wrap issue and also the use of indents (as they appear in the
code) I've done all of this in php without code or pre. It uses
nbsp;'s for the tabs (preg_replace(/\t/...). ...
If you are curious this is what an output looks like ...
strong1/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;lt;?phpbr /
strong2/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;br /
strong3/strongnbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;function
rowNumber($i)br /
When you are using php, you can do this with
ol class=csshtml
li class=t01codelt;?php/code/li
li class=t02codefunction rowNumber($i)/code/li
...
/ol
and so on. I saw this on
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/
fixed_or_fluid_width_elastic/
and I think it makes much sense to put a source listing in a ol and
the tabulator as a class for li and the line code in code.
And it's flexible enough for indenting, hovering and so on. Now you
can style the classes and code for your needs.
For example, I don't use the line numbers for short code snippets in
my demo here:
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/forgottenbg.html
see what happens when the line wraps: the indention/tab takes effect.
( IMHO that's better than
pre { white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: pre-wrap;}
starts at the beginning of the line after a wrap)
Should be usable even when CSS is off.
Another way without php might be to leave the pre on the page
pre ... /pre
and to write a javascript injection routine for this to get
ol class=csshtml
li class=t01codelt;?php/code/li
...
/ol
automagically. Anyone sure can do this, might be practical for pages
with listings.
Ingo
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[WSG] 100% table in 775px div w/overflow:auto
Certainly modern browsers (Safari, Firefox, Mozilla) handle what I'm trying to do, but IE is mucking this up. I'd post a link but this is on an internal dev server... I have a div that is 775px wide and 300px tall with overflow:auto. Inside there is a table (for tabular type data) that is 100% wide. Modern browsers show this just right...a scroll bar at the right so users can scroll through the data. div style='width:775px:height:300px;overflow:auto;' table width='100%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' border='0' trtdtabular data/td/tr /table /div IE gives me a scrollbar at the bottom and the width of the table does not reduce itself for the scrollbar at the right (which is the real problem). Is there a way to get by this (using css I mean)? IE also blows out the data so that even objects that are in the hidden range are active (like an onmouseover action for instance). Do I just toss in the towel trying to deal with the issue or is there anything that can somehow be done about this. Thanks, v ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 100% table in 775px div w/overflow:auto
Yeah, the typo was from a fast typist... ;)
I think Rowan's solution will just have to do. I do make a point to
specify to users that it's highly recommended they use a 'modern'
browser - complete with a link to Firefox. So, I think that will just
have to cover this problem well enough...
Thanks for the tip...v
On May 26, 2005, at 11:55 AM, Rowan Lewis wrote:
Patrick, I'm sure that was just a quick example to show us what the
problem was, no need to be picky :)
Anyhow, when I come across problems like this with IE, I tend to use
something like this:
table {
width : 100% !important;
width : 95%;
}
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Re: [WSG] multiple columns and 100% height
No, that's not it. Now I'm totally dying because I can't find it. Some guy had figured out, and I believe had tested a way to audtomatically keep column heights at equal heights to each other. No javascript and it didn't even appear to be a hack. He made some comment that he stared at his monitor in disbelief because it worked. Then he told some colleagues and everybody was mystified by the utter simplictiy of the method. I'm not joking...but it might not have been widely tested (I can't remember this part). Guess I should start keeping a history of every site I visit in the browser from now on...darn. On Apr 18, 2005, at 10:30 AM, Carlos Rincon Sanchez wrote: maybe this can help you http://www.neuroticweb.com/recursos/3-columns-layout/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] multiple columns and 100% height
Fauxcolumns isn't it. Darn, I can't believe I didn't put this link in my read me files... On Apr 16, 2005, at 5:28 PM, David wrote: Also a case for faux columns... http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/ A short while ago somebody wrote an article about achieving 100% height divs when using multiple columns. Their solution was something really simple but for the life of me I can't remember the trick - it was some kind of one line rule...height: ???. But I'm not sure. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] typographic challenge with css
Hi folks: I'm trying to do something and I'm not sure if this is possible. What I want to do is write simple sentence constructed of left floated divs...like... div class='sentence'This/div div class='sentence'is/div div class='sentence'a/div div class='sentence'sentence./div The tricky part, since I can't do this with a span (I believe) is that I only want class='sentence' to be just the width of the word itself (just as a span does it). Additionally, and this is why it's necessary, I want to mark up each div with further things (the 'sub' class would center the text underneath the 'sentence' class and would have smaller text)... div class='sentence' This div class='sub'A/div /div div class='sentence' is div class='sub'A/div /div div class='sentence' a div class='sub'A/div /div div class='sentence' sentence. div class='sub'A/div /div ??? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] typographic challenge with css
Thanks for that. I was missing the span display:block...plus I had
forgotten the simplicity of a floated div that doesn't have a width
applied to it.
*) except old buggy browsers, ofcourse
Yep...it's will work in IE5/Mac is it's just span (without
display:block) oddly enough, otherwise it doesn't. Good thing I don't
really develop for that browser any more. I still need to check all of
this on IE5/PC though...later. ;)
On Mar 31, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Kornel Lesinski wrote:
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:31:25 +0100, Vaska.WSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The tricky part, since I can't do this with a span (I believe) is
that I only want class='sentence' to be just the width of the word
itself (just as a span does it)
a bit offtopic note:
From CSS point of view there is no difference between tags.
You can* do same things with span, div, b, table or even apply
styles to title and meta tags.
*) except old buggy browsers, ofcourse
Magic:
span {display: block;}
div {display: inline;}
and you have presenation of those two swapped!
This doesn't affect HTML, which still has to follow
it's own rules and should carry semantics.
--
regards, Kornel Lesi?ski
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Re: [WSG] Floated right div gets pushed below the left
Nice. We're currently in a prototype stage so I won't really think about the final solution until next week (but I'm downloading your markups right now). Thanks very much, vaska On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:28 AM, Andrew Hawthorne wrote: Hi Vaska, I think I may have a solution for you -- negative margins. I've used this method before and have had great luck with it. You can read up on Creating Liquid Layouts with Negative Margins for some details on the technique. This is one of my favorite articles on A List Apart. I was bored over lunch so I threw this together for you as an example http://boxmodel.com/wsg/vaska.php . It's a rushed so I apologize. It's tested in IE6, Firefox 1.0.2, Netscape 7.2, and Safari 1.2.4 (v125.12). I hope this sends you in a positive direction. regards, Andrew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] you've been framed! - Pt2 : overflow
Javascript...calculate the height of the window or even a particular div (like the one that the overflow is inside of)...and then apply height to the div in question (based upon the calculated heights of things minus some amount perhaps)...not the most elegant way to things however... What about...I can't find it right now...there's a tutorial out there about creating frameless frames using css...it might be a better solution then you can have your nav on the left and when you scroll it won't move...just your right side content will scroll...v On Mar 25, 2005, at 1:10 PM, designer wrote: Happy Easter to all! So I've done some fiddling with overflow : auto, and failed. My problem is (as far as I can see) that one has to specify a height for the div which has overflow:auto, and I don't know how to set the height to fill the viewport space under the menu. Normally I'd set it to 100%, but that gives me all kinds of problems. Firstly, if I pick the 'happy medium' of 1024 by 768 and give the div a height of 500px, it looks great. When I resize to 800 x 600 however, I get 2 vertical scrollbars - the one in the div and the one in the browser itself. So I set the overflow to hidden on the body, and that solved that, but what remains is still a clumsy looking mess. The effect I'm after can be seen by going to: www.kernowproperties.co.uk and when you get in, select the 200k max link. You will see a long list of houses for sale. The list can be scrolled, whilst the menu on the left stays put. Great! However, my attempt ( which can be seen at: http://www.kernowproperties.fsnet.co.uk/propertydetails/ noframes_200kmax.html ) shows my problem: I cannot set the height so that it makes good use of the viewport area - what fits in 800 x 600 looks ridiculous in 1240 by 1024. etc etc. OK, maybe I'm missing a trick here (do please tell me!) but if not, it looks as though this solution isn't one, after all. Your comments, suggestions and general help would be most welcome. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] you've been framed! - Pt2 : overflow
Check this out...not sure if it's what you want, but I found an article about it for you... http://www.stunicholls.myby.co.uk/layouts/frame.html Doesn't work in IE5 but I think if you dig around enough you could find somebody who has solved this problem... good luck...v On Mar 25, 2005, at 1:10 PM, designer wrote: Happy Easter to all! So I've done some fiddling with overflow : auto, and failed. My problem is (as far as I can see) that one has to specify a height for the div which has overflow:auto, and I don't know how to set the height to fill the viewport space under the menu. Normally I'd set it to 100%, but that gives me all kinds of problems. Firstly, if I pick the 'happy medium' of 1024 by 768 and give the div a height of 500px, it looks great. When I resize to 800 x 600 however, I get 2 vertical scrollbars - the one in the div and the one in the browser itself. So I set the overflow to hidden on the body, and that solved that, but what remains is still a clumsy looking mess. The effect I'm after can be seen by going to: www.kernowproperties.co.uk and when you get in, select the 200k max link. You will see a long list of houses for sale. The list can be scrolled, whilst the menu on the left stays put. Great! However, my attempt ( which can be seen at: http://www.kernowproperties.fsnet.co.uk/propertydetails/ noframes_200kmax.html ) shows my problem: I cannot set the height so that it makes good use of the viewport area - what fits in 800 x 600 looks ridiculous in 1240 by 1024. etc etc. OK, maybe I'm missing a trick here (do please tell me!) but if not, it looks as though this solution isn't one, after all. Your comments, suggestions and general help would be most welcome. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] you've been framed!
As far as I'm concerned, when you have a great long scrolling list (for example) and you want (need) to keep the nav stuff stationary, frames represent the ONLY way to do it. The ONLY? What about: div style='width:300px;height:300px;overflow:auto;' !-- put your stuff in here -- /div That seems to work pretty well too. Iframes are perfecty fine in some situations, but don't forget about the above...it works quite well too... ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Who's putting javascript in my code?
i had a similar problem recently...we figured out after a week that it wasn't just on my end...although the host claimed they had checked everything, the server had a virus (that was connect to a java applet on another site that was a known home for hackers)...hopefully your problem isn't nearly as bad as mine was... are you on a mac or pc? i moved to a new server (still with the same host)...v On Mar 24, 2005, at 5:04 PM, Alex Katechis wrote: Seems interesting... the address 127.0.0.1 is the TCP address for loopback. This means that any computer that calls that address is actually referring to itself. The only reason I can think of, is that your browser is inserting it in order to allow or block certain functionality on the page (popup-blocking, ad-blocking, etc.) Have you tried inserting that address into a browser window and trying to download the file? Maybe then you can open up the script and it may give you clues as to its origin and purpose.
Re: [WSG] Targeting Mac IE5.1 on OSX
I can't find the exact webpage, but it is possible to arget IE on
Mac...like this...it's an odd hack that does work...
.innerbox {
/* commented backslash for IE5-Mac \*/
background: url(../imgs/bg-menu-test.png) repeat !important;
/* end hack */
background: #666;
height: 36px;
padding: 6px 0 0 51px;
}
What I'm doing in this example is using a PNG background for modern
browsers and then for:
IE/Mac it ignores the background item and goes to the background color
option instead
IE/PC it ignores the !important line and uses the background color
option...
No need for conditional statements...v
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[WSG] Inline list with images, no text
Aside from an example over at Shaun Inmans great site, has anybody come up with a reasonable method for creating an inline list that hides the text (via text-indent) and uses image swapping on hover via css? Inman's is great, but after experimenting with what he has done it doesn't hold up well enough for my purposes. I've searched my collection of over 11,000 posts to this newslist and also the web and I can't come up with anything...??? Thanks for any ideas... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] 1px shift on inline list for visited links only
I can't quite figure out why my list (site navigation) shifts to the
right 1px every time I hover over an item that has a link that I've
already visited - in Safari and Firefox on the mac at least. It
doesn't effect links that I have not visited.
I've validated both the page and the css and I am using sIFR and
YoungPup's sliding menu script (but I'm pretty sure these are not the
problem).
This is the page = http://www.vaska.com/a/
This is the css = http://www.vaska.com/a/css/c.css
And below is the css where I'm sure the problem resides. It has
something to do with the visited state of things but I'm drawing a
blank right now. Any help would be much appreciated, thanks. v
ps: Hover over menu/options to get the menu. If you are using IE on
the pc the menu when it comes down it might look kind of crazy since I
haven't yet applied the background stuff to it...
#navigation {
width: 700px;
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}
#navigation li {
list-style-type: none;
display: inline;
}
#navigation li a {
text-indent: -3000px;
height: 27px;
padding: 0;
margin: 0;
border: 0;
}
#navigation li a#home {
float: left;
width: 40px;
background: url(../imgs/nav-home.gif) left top no-repeat;
}
#navigation li a#work {
float: left;
width: 35px;
background: url(../imgs/nav-work.gif) left top no-repeat;
}
#navigation li a#svcs {
float: left;
width: 53px;
background: url(../imgs/nav-svcs.gif) left top no-repeat;
}
#navigation li a#jrnl {
float: left;
width: 49px;
background: url(../imgs/nav-jrnl.gif) left top no-repeat;
}
#navigation li a#hello {
float: left;
width: 44px;
background: url(../imgs/nav-hello.gif) left top no-repeat;
}
#navigation li a#en {
float: right;
width: 19px;
background: url(../imgs/lang-en.gif) left top no-repeat;
}
#navigation li a#es {
float: right;
width: 19px;
background: url(../imgs/lang-es.gif) left top no-repeat;
}
#navigation li a#fr {
float: right;
width: 19px;
background: url(../imgs/lang-fr.gif) left top no-repeat;
}
#navigation li a:visited#home,
#navigation li a:visited#work,
#navigation li a:visited#svcs,
#navigation li a:visited#jrnl,
#navigation li a:visited#hello,
#navigation li a:visited#en,
#navigation li a:visited#es,
#navigation li a:visited#fr {
text-decoration: none;
border: 0;
}
#navigation li a:active#home,
#navigation li a:active#work,
#navigation li a:active#svcs,
#navigation li a:active#jrnl,
#navigation li a:active#hello,
#navigation li a:active#en,
#navigation li a:active#es,
#navigation li a:active#fr {
text-decoration: none;
border: 0;
}
#navigation li a:hover#home,
#navigation li a:hover#work,
#navigation li a:hover#svcs,
#navigation li a:hover#jrnl,
#navigation li a:hover#hello,
#navigation li a:hover#en,
#navigation li a:hover#es,
#navigation li a:hover#fr {
background-position: 0 -27px;
}
#navigation li.active a#home,
#navigation li.active a#work,
#navigation li.active a#svcs,
#navigation li.active a#jrnl,
#navigation li.active a#hello {
background-position: 0 -27px;
}
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[WSG] Background does not show up
Sorry, this is on an internal server that's not accessible to the
outside.
I'm having a strange little bug that is showing up in Safari 1.2.4
(oddly, it works fine in IE). I have a container div and then a
content div inside of that. The content div has a margin at the top of
150px. When I have a background color applied to the container div it
does not appear until the content div begins (so I have a 150px band of
just the body background color.
This is basically how it's coded:
div id='container'
div id='content'
All the content stuff...
/div
/div
#container {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 51px;
background: #cc;
}
#content {
width: 705px;
margin: 150px 0 75px 0;
}
Strange enough, if I place a letter in the container div (like an 'a')
it displays as it should (except with the a). I really don't feel that
I should need a hack for this...???
v
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Re: [WSG] Background does not show up
Ah gee, after having this in the back of my head for two days I get a
solution the second after I posted this (I'll wait three days in the
future). Unless somebody has a more solid solution (like exactly why
it does that) this does the trick and doesn't get in the way of the
design. ;)
Change the content margin spacing to the container padding spacing...
#container {
margin: 0;
padding: 150px 0 0 51px;
background: #cc;
}
#content {
width: 705px;
margin: 0 0 75px 0;
}
On Jan 21, 2005, at 5:11 PM, Vaska.WSG wrote:
Sorry, this is on an internal server that's not accessible to the
outside.
I'm having a strange little bug that is showing up in Safari 1.2.4
(oddly, it works fine in IE). I have a container div and then a
content div inside of that. The content div has a margin at the top
of 150px. When I have a background color applied to the container div
it does not appear until the content div begins (so I have a 150px
band of just the body background color.
This is basically how it's coded:
div id='container'
div id='content'
All the content stuff...
/div
/div
#container {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 51px;
background: #cc;
}
#content {
width: 705px;
margin: 150px 0 75px 0;
}
Strange enough, if I place a letter in the container div (like an 'a')
it displays as it should (except with the a). I really don't feel
that I should need a hack for this...???
v
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Re: [WSG] Another amazing css zen garden entry
It's not beautiful if you zoom your text. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Space problem in CSS menu with IE5.0
Perhaps it's the line-height in #jour? Looks like it's about 12px extra there...you might need to add that to #jour a...v On Dec 10, 2004, at 1:08 PM, Antonio wrote: I can't solved a space problem in a CSS menu that only affects IE5.0: XHTML: http://kalimeo.com/menu CSS: http://kalimeo.com/menu/menu.css IE5.0 screenshot : http://kalimeo.com/menu/IE5.html Any ideas? Thanks for your help... Antonio ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Looking for party animals
I'm signed up for the one in Winnipeg, MB, Canada! :D Hopefully more will sign up! Joseph Lindsay wrote: And for the Kiwis (Wellington): http://www.openforce.at/mozparty2/?party=172 On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:51:40 +1000, Nigel McFarlane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear OSIA and WSG members, If you happen to: - like Mozilla or Firefox Web browsers - enjoy social occasions - reside in one of these places in Oz: - Adelaide (or SA) - Canberra - Tassie - Darwin and possibly know how to book a casual evening event, then could you please get fired up? Firefox 1.0 is about to turn zero and we're trying to organise something in every state and territory in Australia in November. Currently organised parties are advertised here: http://www.openforce.at/mozparty2/?view=AU C'mon, join in! (and maybe win a book) thanks, Nigel. -- - Nigel McFarlane [EMAIL PROTECTED] Services: Analysis, Programming, Writing, Education Expertise:Software, Telecommunications, Internet, Physics "Rapid Application Development with Mozilla" / www.nigelmcfarlane.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] proper header backgrounds
Thanks so muchh Amit! That worked
great, with a few modifications for my specific design. Thank you so
much! 8-)
Jeremy S.
Author of JezzJournal
Co-Founder of Effuse
Amit Karmakar wrote:
Jeremy, here goes. my $0.02
div id="banner"
h1a href="" accesskey="1"My Header/a/h1
/div
#banner {background-color: #ccc;
background-image: url(header.jpg);
background-repeat: repeat-x;
font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;
height: 60px;
padding: 15px 0 15px 15px;
text-align: left;
}
#banner a {color: #990; text-decoration: none;}
#banner h1 {font-size: xx-large;}
hope this helps.
On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 04:46:26 -0500, Jeremy S. (WSG) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm trying to make my header image be completely controlled by css, so if I
was to have a style switcher, it would be easily changed. I know this is
really easy, but I'm having trouble finding any information from google.
Right now, I've got this.
div id="header"
h1JezzJournal/h1
/div
CSS
#header {
background: url(../images/header.jpg);
width: widthofjpg;
height: widthofjpg;
}
doesn't seem to be working, but I'm sure I'm doing it wrong. Thanks for all
your help! 8-)
--
Jeremy S.
Author of JezzJournal
Co-Founder of Effuse
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[WSG] proper header backgrounds
I'm trying to make my header image
be completely controlled by css, so if I was to have a style switcher,
it would be easily changed. I know this is really easy, but I'm having
trouble finding any information from google.
Right now, I've got this.
div id="header"
h1JezzJournal/h1
/div
CSS
#header {
background: url(../images/header.jpg);
width: widthofjpg;
height: widthofjpg;
}
doesn't seem to be working, but I'm sure I'm doing it wrong. Thanks for
all your help! 8-)
--
Jeremy S.
Author of JezzJournal
Co-Founder of Effuse
inline: getfirefox.gif
[WSG] Web Site Structure Suggestions, Second Post!
To the many members of WSG: This is my second post on this same subject, and I'm hoping that this time I'll be able to get a response. :-) I have built up a design in Photoshop, which you can view here or here. I'm looking to get help on how I should write up the structure for the site, as I'm a bit confused about the best way to attack it. So far, this is what I have. !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd" html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" head titleJezzJournal *new*/title meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" / /head body div id="container" div id="header" h1 id="header-text"JezzJournal/h1 /div div id="sidebar" sidebar links. /div div id="navigation" links. /div div id="content" all sorts of content here /div /div /body /html What do you think? Would what I have be best for what I'm trying to accomplish? -- Jeremy S. Author of JezzJournal Co-Founder of Effuse inline: getfirefox.gif
[WSG] New Design Structure
Hey there. I'm currently working on a design, and have finished the look of it (almost competely), which you can view here. http://effuse.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=461#461 Now, my question regards how to properly take this design and mark it up. This is what I'm thinking basically, at this time. div id="container" div id="header" (blank, as I want to imbed the header.jpg in CSS) /div div id="sidebar" (side bar information) /div div id="content-container" div id="navigation" (navigation information) /div div id="content" (all content goes here) /div /div /div Of course, if it is any other way, or if there is a better way to mark it up, please let me know. I'm looking for the best way to do it, which will cause the least issues possible. -- Jeremy S. Author of JezzJournal Co-Founder of Effuse inline: getfirefox.gif
Re: [WSG] Accessible Odeon on BBC Radio 4
Just listened to this excellent piece. They had a similar debate/questionaire on CBC Radio One a few months back, unfortunately, it is not avaliable online. :-( Charles Roper wrote: Today I heard a short piece on BBC Radio 4's Today programme talking about Matthew Somerville's Accessible Odeon site and web accessibility in general. Worth a listen (requires RealPlayer): http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_business_20040921.ram Good to hear accessibility issues such as this reaching the mainstream media. -- Jeremy S. Author of JezzJournal Co-Founder of Effuse inline: getfirefox.gif
Re: [WSG] introduction
Welcome John! I'm sure you'll fit right in here. =) john wrote: Hello, everybody. I've been reading the list for a day or two, and I'm very excited to be part of the growing number of designers/developers who are taking a stand for standards. A little bit about me: I am originally from Seattle, Washington, USA, but moved to Portugal in April, 2003, in order to get off the fast track and slow my pace a little (it helps that my wife is Portuguese *grin*). I've been a Web developer since 1995, and started off on the right foot with learning HTML, coding by hand (via PICO), and using the tags for what they were meant for (rather than what they did to the appearance of a Web page). In 1998, however, I went to work for the Seattle Chamber of Commerce, who was naturally a strong supporter of Microsoft -- the result was that I was forced to start using FrontPage and Internet Explorer. In 2002, I switched to Dreamweaver (which permits me to hand-code again, with a few bells amp; whistles)...and a year ago I made Mozilla my default browser. Having just bought and devoured Jeffrey Zeldman's book, I am (again) a supporter and devout follower of Web standards and plan to redesign all my sites as time permits. Seems that, while I have a solid background in HTML, a natural tendency towards minimalist design, and some experience with CSS1, I have a lot to learn regarding CSS2. Forgive me, reader, for I have sinned against tables...bastardizing them for layout and whitespace. :/ I have repented and am slowly making my way towards the light, which is why I have joined this list, as I hope to get support in my efforts. -- Jeremy S. Author of JezzJournal Co-Founder of Effuse inline: getfirefox.gif
Re: [WSG] Moz vs. FF
Hey there. I find that when I do so, even with my site, it simply breaks my site design. It's when I click on the EditCSS button that such happens. It doesn't seem to happen with many other sites, just mine. Would that be a problem with my CSS code? Matt Andrews wrote: ... and, if you're using the Web Developer extension, Firefox has a huge advantage over Mozilla: the "Edit CSS" feature - a must for any CSS developer! load a page, choose "Edit CSS", and a sidebar opens with the CSS files. edit them and see the results *instantly* in the browser. save the CSS files out to disk. bliss :) On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:50:22 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: Mozilla has a more mature UI, besides bundling not only mailnews but also IRC chat, address book, and web page composer. Firefox is less mature, but offers more customizability of the UI itself, separate from any extensions you may choose to add. FF, being smaller, runs slightly faster. So, which to pick depends on personal preferences as to look and feel and minor functionality, in addition to whether you need or want the bundled apps. Either way you choose, you'll want the web developer extension: http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/webdeveloper ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Moz vs. FF
Hey there. I find that when I do so, even with my site, it simply breaks my site design. It's when I click on the EditCSS button that such happens. It doesn't seem to happen with many other sites, just mine. Would that be a problem with my CSS code? Matt Andrews wrote: ... and, if you're using the Web Developer extension, Firefox has a huge advantage over Mozilla: the "Edit CSS" feature - a must for any CSS developer! load a page, choose "Edit CSS", and a sidebar opens with the CSS files. edit them and see the results *instantly* in the browser. save the CSS files out to disk. bliss :) On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:50:22 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: Mozilla has a more mature UI, besides bundling not only mailnews but also IRC chat, address book, and web page composer. Firefox is less mature, but offers more customizability of the UI itself, separate from any extensions you may choose to add. FF, being smaller, runs slightly faster. So, which to pick depends on personal preferences as to look and feel and minor functionality, in addition to whether you need or want the bundled apps. Either way you choose, you'll want the web developer extension: http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/webdeveloper ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Moz vs. FF
I apologize for the repeat message. My mistake. :-( Jeremy S. (WSG) wrote: Hey there. I find that when I do so, even with my site, it simply breaks my site design. It's when I click on the EditCSS button that such happens. It doesn't seem to happen with many other sites, just mine. Would that be a problem with my CSS code? Matt Andrews wrote: ... and, if you're using the Web Developer extension, Firefox has a huge advantage over Mozilla: the "Edit CSS" feature - a must for any CSS developer! load a page, choose "Edit CSS", and a sidebar opens with the CSS files. edit them and see the results *instantly* in the browser. save the CSS files out to disk. bliss :) On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:50:22 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: Mozilla has a more mature UI, besides bundling not only mailnews but also IRC chat, address book, and web page composer. Firefox is less mature, but offers more customizability of the UI itself, separate from any extensions you may choose to add. FF, being smaller, runs slightly faster. So, which to pick depends on personal preferences as to look and feel and minor functionality, in addition to whether you need or want the bundled apps. Either way you choose, you'll want the web developer extension: http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/webdeveloper ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne Meeting tonight
I have finally posted the notes from last Mondays presentation in Melbourne on using XSLT to produce websites. (Sorry for the delay.) It includes more details about using XSLT and some concrete examples for those that have asked for them. The url is http://woric.net/wsg_presentation The notes have been split into 2 parts: - part 1 is an overview of XSLT with some examples - part 2 covers the CMS functionality, with some code examples If you have questions or comments after reading through the presentation, then please contact me off list or via my website. (http://woric.net) woric ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] AntiSpam Alert from tbrick52
Title: AntiSpam Alert: Request For Authentication apple From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 21, 2004 2:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] AntiSpam Alert from tbrick52 Importance: High Hi, this is tbrick52. Your recent email has been delivered to my computer, but because you're not yet in my trusted senders list, it hasn't been placed in my inbox. To get added to my trusted senders list, please reply to this message with my AntiSpam passcode. Here's all you have to do: 1. Press Reply 2. In the body of the reply, type in my AntiSpam Passcode: 3. Press Send. When I receive this reply, I will know that it was really you that sent me the email and not a computerized spammer. I will then be able to read all your mail. This authentication will be done only once. Thank you have a great day, tbrick52 Bongosoft AntiSpam authenticates the SENDER of each incoming email. Using our patent-pending Passcode Authentication Technoloy Bongosoft AntiSpam is unmatched at spam elimination while providing you with total control of your incoming email. For more information about Bongosoft AntiSpam, please visit us at www.bongosoft.com X-Bongosoft-AntiSpamRFA ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) image001.gif
[WSG] Some Problems in IE (what else?)
Hey everyone, Havent been too active on the whole web development front for quite some time, so Im having trouble executing some things that I want to get done. Ive recently been working on a revision of the design for my main site (www.jezzjournal.com) because there are issues in IE, and it needs to look better as my skills progress. =) Ive been working on the design located at http://www.affectus.net/freelance/2004_07_jezzjournal/ and as you can see, Ive been changing how things look, trying to shine the apple per say. Problem is, in IE the sidebar really messes up. Instead of the h2 tag aligning nicely, it has about 10px of space on the left side in IE 6.0, and it hides some of the ulli tags! Im really not sure how to fix this without ruining alignment in Firefox (my testing browser). Also, in the comments section of my new design, you may notice Ive played with how the comments appear (the ol li stuff). In Firefox, Ive got it almost looking like what I want, but in IE 6.0 for some reason it adds a lot of extra space, and it doesnt look as good. =/ And, problem 3. In my current design, when I use the class imgleft to separate my pictures from the post, it breaks my sidebar in IE6.0. For an example, please check out this page http://www.jezzjournal.com/?s=imgleft . I want to avoid this in my revision, so if you could figure out a way to fix this, which Im sure is the boxhack, that would be great. I would like to know how to get the box model hack working my revision design as well, I have never really understood it. =/ Thanks so much for your help with my three issues, I know its a lot, but I really hope you guys can help. Im so frustrated with IE! Ack! Jeremy Shields www.jezzjournal.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [WSG] [OT] Internet Explorer Weblog
It's great to see they -may- be opening up to the community, but I really do not forsee any great changes in the IE philosophy by Microsoft. They see 85% of market, and are happy with just that and a few security updates. I'd hate to work for Microsoft. Well, maybe not, they pay well don't they? Jeremy www.jezzjournal.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Krassy Sent: July 23, 2004 1:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] [OT] Internet Explorer Weblog There is an ounce of hope that IE might listen to what the world is waiting for. Let the IE developers know that we would love to see an upgraded IE browser with better web standards support. IEBlog - the Microsoft Internet Explorer Weblog: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/ Cheers, Krassy = Krassy Lyakov web.developer web: http://www.krassy.com/ blog: http://www.krassycandoit.com/blah/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Quick Poll
How about monthly? Its very easy to remember. eg: first Mon of each month. woric - Original Message - From: afdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 7:53 AM Subject: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Quick Poll Hey there all Melbourne members of this list. At the last meeting of the Melbourne WSG, it was suggested that we meet more frequently. Currently we are meeting every 8 weeks. The alternatives are: 1. Meet every 4 weeks 2. Meet every 6 weeks If you have a strong feeling either way, please send your thoughts to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Of course feel free to use this opportunity to give us any other feedback/suggestions (such as future speakers, how we run meetings, our fashion sense etc.) PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS LIST You have till Monday 5pm, to have your say. cheers dez Melbourne WSG Co-Organiser * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Next WSG Melbourne Meeting Monday June 28
Just a reminder that the next WSG Melbourne Meeting is this Monday June 28. Another meeting already... time flies when you're busy. Unfortunately I will be out of town next Mon and unable to attend, but I do promise to be in town for the next meeting. woric * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Must Read
I took a look at the example page, and in FireFox .9 and a broadband connection, it took a good couple of seconds before the images showed up properly. I was considering using some sort of image replacement for my new design of my journal, and I was highly considering this one. But I'm really not sure at this point. I really do agree with the idea of accessibility, and this seems to limit that. Jeremy - www.jezzjournal.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bert Doorn Sent: June 16, 2004 12:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Must Read opinion Whatever the technique, using images for headings is, to me, backward, pixel perfect, print thinking. I visited the site - I only have a modem connection. I dind't like the way the headings disappeared, got replaced with image placeholders which slwly filled up with text that was there in the first place. Perhaps I am a lone voice in the desert, but why go back to 1990's style websites when we have CSS? Is it necessary to make people wait, just so you can show them the font YOU like (and they might not be able to see anyway)? /opinion Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] CSS Menu Issues - Client Site
Hello there. Im developing a site for a local hat shop, and Im having some problems with the menu. If you could please take a look at the following link: http://www.affectus.net/freelance/2004_05_phathats/ Here are the issues I am experiencing: 1) I would like for the navigation to stretch 100% of the width (750px). I will style the a:active stuff later, once the base is aligned the way I would like. 2) I notice there is a break between the different boxes of the navigation. Id like to know how to get rid of these things. 3) In Firefox .8 (which I test on), I find that there is a break in the white background right about where the navigation is. I would like to make a solid white background from header to footer. Thanks so much for your time. I hope you guys can figure it out, Ive been banging my head on the table for the last two hours. Jeremy Shields www.jezzjournal.com www.affectus.net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
I use the code view in Dreamweaver MX 2004, and I do a lot of hand coding still. I also have used TopStyle from time to time, great little utility. =) Jeremy S. www.jezzjournal.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of helmut Sent: June 5, 2004 11:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use? What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] lotus domino vs doctype
Sadly, with Lotus Domino the only reliable way to control DOCTYPE (as far as I can tell) is to generate the entire page from scratch with an agent. If your first print is a DOCTYPE, then Domino won't generate headers. But if you use Forms you get stuck with what Domino decides is best for you. But if you have to go to that trouble, Why use Domino at all? one might begin to wonder. --David
RE: [WSG] Accessibility software
Hello Amit, I'm sort of confused by your question. Do you mean something that tests your code for validation according to the doctype? If you are looking for something like that, the WC3 Validator is great. Or do you mean software? Like TopStyle / Dreamweaver etc? Jeremy S. www.jezzjournal.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Amit Karmakar Sent: June 1, 2004 10:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Accessibility software People, A few questions regarding accessibility. I am thinking of buying a software for testing Accessibility for sites. Presently I test it through Firefox's Web Developer extension which uses Cynthia says http://www.cynthiasays.com/accverifycs/index.html My questions Is this the best Accessibility software to buy? What are my other options? How well does cynthia Says rate for testing Accessibility to Australian standards? Are there any particular softwares recommended from the Australian standpoint as far as 508 and WAI is concerned? Thanks for your inputs. Amit Karmakar www.karmakars.com ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
I second j.neen's suggestion for a tread-based forum. Also, I prefer an RSS feed of the thread as my way to review. --David
Re: [WSG] javascript form submission
If you are an ASP coder and want to move to Linux then why not use ASP.NET? It will be a much easier learning curve than PHP. FYI: Many ASP.NET pages run on Mono [C# compiler for Linux] including web services, and many DotNet apps run without modification. The Mono website is http://mono.org. woric Original Message - Nancy Johnson wrote: Dear All, This is a side track to this thread: I have always used .asp for form submission, but I want to find a _javascript_ and/or php versions of form submissions in case I have to do a site that does not have a windows based server. I think PHP is the way to go, since it works on almost all servers out there, including Windows.
Re: [WSG] back to basics
Excuse me for possibly subtracting from the sum of human knowledge, but I don't recall reading in the original problem statement that it had to be a *semantic* single quote, which means the entity apos; would do just fine. My apologies, I presumed that Justin had already checked the existing XHTML entities and couldnt find one. You are correct that apos; is available in XHHTML and is defined as character 39... though only when you are using ISO Latin character sets. So, yes, apos; is a better solution than the one I posted. Perhaps somebody can tell me whether or not it's an urban legend (for once the Microsoft XML documentation is obscure) that putting on an XML header automatically gets you apos; regardless of DTD? Using ?xml version='1.0'? only gets you 3 entities... lt; gt; and amp; All extra entities must be declared in a DTD but the XHTML DTD declares alot of them so using a XHTML DTD gets you all the entities you should need... inlcuding apos; woric * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] back to basics
I can't find a way of escaping a single quote inside the attribute, The simple answer seems to be use double quotes for all attributes, so that at least the nested double quotes can be replaced with a quot; entity, but I can't believe this is my only option -- am I missing something?? Hi Justin, You can either: a) use the appropriate type of quote (single or double) for each attribute and not to religously stick to one or the other. b ) declare an entity in an inline DTD declaration at the top of the document to signify a single quote. eg: ?xml version=1.0? !DOCTYPE html [ !ENTITY sq #039; ] You can now refer to single quotes as sq; woric * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Design Philosophy
I'm following behind the curve on this one as it seems people have put this to rest. However, I really do not want to be grouped into a category of people who believe in standards above all else. I am a print designer first and foremost. My response, below, was really more about shock than anything else. I couldn't believe that somebody would propose to take the visual design out of things. If that were the case, I would probably stop building websites tommorrow. In reality, it would need to be much higher than 7% to get me to stop building websites. I would just stop using CSS first... Anyways, we were dealing with an article from 1999 (or so) - things become antiquated rather quickly. Having worked in a few design shops I can say that group discussions about design 'philosphies' tend to become pedagogical exercises rather quickly as every job you ever do will likely be unique. On 12 May 2004, at 18:04, P.H.Lauke wrote: Yes, but are there any really hard statistics about what the public is doing. We know roughly 7% don't use or diable javascript. But what about disabling styles? rant type=unfocussed rambling Why is that relevant? Heck, it's almost like we're going back to the old how many % of users still run at 800x600...lamers We know it's 7% ? Do we ? Lies, statistics and lies...it always comes down to *your* particular audience. Yes, we have to give up a level of control on how our pages are presented (if you want pixel perfect, go back to print, or use flash/PDF/etc), but we gain flexible delivery based on user preferences. We're not forcing our visual sensibilities onto users that don't want them (e.g. those surfing with a simple text browsers couldn't give a damn about lines and lines of markup relating to presentation, or stylesheets). However, that's obviously *not* the same as saying that we should therefore not care about presentation at all. /rant P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] old browser download site?
Hi Kevin, Try: http://www.skyzyx.com/archives/94.php Multi older versions of IE + instructions on how to get them to all play nice on one machine. Brian Kevin McMonagle wrote: Hi all, I need older browsers for testing sites. Is there anywhere i can download ie windows pre version 6? They are not available at mircrosofts site. thanks -Kevin _ Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] reference entity year end with ; ???
It's frustrating as it can be very difficult to find information about these things via Google. Anyways, I'm getting alot of error messages when I validate - in particular I'm getting messages like this: 7. Line 50, column 40: cannot generate system identifier for general entity year td class=calndrHdra href=?month=4year=2004a=Homelaquo;/a/td 8. Line 50, column 40: general entity year not defined and no default entity td class=calndrHdra href=?month=4year=2004a=Homelaquo;/a/td 9. Line 50, column 44: reference not terminated by REFC delimiter td class=calndrHdra href=?month=4year=2004a=Homelaquo;/a/td 10. Line 50, column 44: reference to external entity in attribute value td class=calndrHdra href=?month=4year=2004a=Homelaquo;/a/td 11. Line 50, column 44: reference to entity year for which no system identifier could be generated td class=calndrHdra href=?month=4year=2004a=Homeq=indexlaquo;/a/td 12. Line 50, column 39: entity was defined here td class=calndrHdra href=?month=4year=2004a=Homelaquo;/a/td Oi vey, wondering what I'm doing with this stuff anymore... Can somebody shed some light on these messages? v * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] reference entity year end with ; ???
Thanks, all of this is just making more stupid by the second... ;) On 12 May 2004, at 17:15, Chatham, Will wrote: What it's trying to say is that you need to change your '' to the 'amp;' entity in your URL's. The XHTML validator is trying to parse year, which isn't valid. Check out this (Section C12) for more info: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ Will Chatham * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Design Philosophy
Yes, but are there any really hard statistics about what the public is doing. We know roughly 7% don't use or diable javascript. But what about disabling styles? On 12 May 2004, at 16:13, Jeremy Flint wrote: On the web, you really have NO control over your site once it is public. Users have the ability to disable styles, images, apply different fonts and colors that override yours. The only thing you truly have control over is the information and the code behind it. All asthetic aspects of a site are open to whether a user wants to see them. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] reference entity year end with ; ???
Thanks Justin, It's clear to me. But what I can't figure out is why I've never noticed this one before? Really...I'm just amazed this hasn't crossed my path before... It will probably only take a couple of hours to make all the changes, not very much in the grand scheme of things...v On 12 May 2004, at 17:29, Justin French wrote: Vaska, The answer is simple. Your URLs contain ampersands (), which are a character which cannot be used directly in HTML. Why? Because it's used for entities, like amp; and copy; and #8212;. Without boring you with the details, you need to use ?month=4amp;year=2004amp;a=Home, not ?month=4year=2004a=Home to pass validation (hence write well-formed HTML). No, the validator is not broken or wrong. Yes, I know every book tells you to use a plain ampersand. Yes I know it works in most browsers and situations today, but plain ampersands are not correct :) If it's a huge deal to re-write your application at this point, you might consider writing a quick function (in PHP, I'd use ob_start() with a call back function with a regex to replace all the problematic ampersands in URLs on the way to the browser), but your mileage may vary. You're better off getting it right now, rather than relying on such a beast. Justin * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Problems with tables and two fixed-width columns
On 11 May 2004, at 15:41, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: For one - you have a width defined container (#middle) next to a floated box, this is sometimes (hmm) problematic in IE - the 3px jog is messing things up. Do you think so? I have a space in between the left and middle divs that is left empty...it's about 15px wide...nothing occupies this zone... Reading, reading, reading...v * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Problems with tables and two fixed-width columns
Since it seems like a rather common problem... My solution certainly required the box model hack. Plus instead of left and right floats I used only left floats. All my column widths are obviously fixed. Perhaps things were helped by the fact that only one of the tables required a width of 100% also. It's all working (and tested) very nicely now...v ps: I've never used a mail list to search for problems. But now that I have 3,087 WSG messages in this mailbox I can usually search the subject or message body and find solutions to problems - it's really quite cool. Thanks WSG... On 11 May 2004, at 15:41, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: For one - you have a width defined container (#middle) next to a floated box, this is sometimes (hmm) problematic in IE - the 3px jog is messing things up. Do you think so? I have a space in between the left and middle divs that is left empty...it's about 15px wide...nothing occupies this zone... Reading, reading, reading...v * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Textarea problem
This is really a pain. The problem I can see is that with a liquid
layout I need to specify an actual width for the middle column (the
left and right columns both being fixed-width) - so the solution is not
so easy. Holly's hack didn't work and besides I rarely use hacks as I
generally simplify things to a point where I either don't need them or
I can go around the problem.
As for this problem, M$/IE wins again, I'll go back to two columns for
this particular part of things.
Thanks for the input...v
On 10 May 2004, at 03:41, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:
On May 9, 2004, at 11:14 pm, Vaska.WSG wrote:
I'm having a problem with a textarea. It will display properly on
the page (which has three div columns) but when a person begins to
input data it automatically expands (to the right) so it occupies two
columns instead of just the middle column. I've never seen anything
like this before...
textarea name='msg' class='t1'/textarea
.t1 {
display:inline; - this is a tip I got from the mail list
width:98%;
height:125px;
}
I've seen this more when using percentage based width (and the same
happens to tables, but mostly in quirks mode).
One solution is to have a width (or height [1]) explicitly declared on
the direct parent container.
[1] height:1% on that parent container would be OK, but only served to
IE Windows, by using the 'Holly' hack.
Hack explained down this page
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
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[WSG] Textarea problem
I'm having a problem with a textarea. It will display properly on the
page (which has three div columns) but when a person begins to input
data it automatically expands (to the right) so it occupies two columns
instead of just the middle column. I've never seen anything like this
before...
textarea name='msg' class='t1'/textarea
.t1 {
display:inline; - this is a tip I got from the mail list
width:98%;
height:125px;
}
I've validated the code and this problem seems consistent in IE6 in
windows 2000.
Has anybody experience this same problem? I could post more code for
this but I'll wait and see if there might be an easy solution to this
first.
Thanks, v
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[WSG] Validator Question re SHORTTAG YES
I'm not sure what this means actually. This is from a table in my code which is for tabular data, not for layout. ??? Am I correct in assuming that the validator does not like the 'nowrap'? And that probably being the case, and since I do need it, is there some other betther method for pulling this off? From http://validator.w3.org/: 2. Line 65, column 23: the name and VI delimiter can be omitted from an attribute specification only if SHORTTAG YES is specified td width='10%' nowrapa href='#'Updated/a/td * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Melbourne Meeting - May
Hey Cameron, that's exactly what I was thinking... where did the last 2 months go. See you tonight. woric - Original Message - From: Cameron Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:14 AM Subject: [WSG] Melbourne Meeting - May Is the Melbourne meeting really May 3? (like it says on the web site) If so, it snuck up quick! -- Cameron Adams W: www.themaninblue.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] XML Includes?
Mark Stanton wrote:
Could you convert:
window
titlebarmycontent/titlebar
contentmycontent/content /window
into: div class="window"
div class="titlebar"mycontent/div div
class="content"mycontent/div /div
using XSL?
Mark (and Scott),
not having noticed the original post I'm a bit out of the loop
on this discussion, but the Xsl below does the transformation with the fewest of
lines of code possible.
?xml version="1.0"?
xsl:stylesheet version="1.0" xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
xsl:output omit-xml-declaration="yes"
encoding="utf-8"/
xsl:template match="window | titlebar |
content" div
class="{name()}"
xsl:apply-templates/
/div
/xsl:template
/xsl:stylesheet
woric
PS: If you need a Xsl transformation tool and are using a
ASP.NET box try XsltFilter (http://xsltfilter.tigris.org). If you are using
Linux there are lots of Xslt tools for apache and
java.
Re: [WSG] XML Includes?
Mark Stanton wrote:
Could you convert:
window
titlebarmycontent/titlebar
contentmycontent/content /window
into: div class="window"
div class="titlebar"mycontent/div div
class="content"mycontent/div /div
using XSL?
Mark (and Scott),
not having noticed the original post I'm a bit out of the loop
on this discussion, but the Xsl below does the transformation with the fewest of
lines of code possible.
?xml version="1.0"?
xsl:stylesheet version="1.0" xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
xsl:output omit-xml-declaration="yes"
encoding="utf-8"/
xsl:template match="window | titlebar |
content" div
class="{name()}"
xsl:apply-templates/
/div
/xsl:template
/xsl:stylesheet
woric
PS: If you need a Xsl transformation tool and are using a
ASP.NET box try XsltFilter (http://xsltfilter.tigris.org). If you are using
Linux there are lots of Xslt tools for apache and
java.
[WSG] Improved digest format
I subscribe to the digest form of this discussion list. The key idea for a digest preference is to scan the information as efficiently as possible, looking for items of interest, and in this way try to fit the pertinent items from this discussion into a busy day. What are the possibilities for an improved, more efficient digest format for this list? Currently, it starts off with almost a screen's worth of administrivia -- stuff usually located at the end of a digest, and it has no form of table of contents. --David
[WSG] advice re min-height
I'm not sure if my understanding of min-height is correct. What I want to do is set a min-height on a div and then when there is too much info it will automatically expand itself. Apparently, I need to use height as well for M$ browsers but what I don't quite understand is how do the other browsers properly interpret that when you have both a height and a min-height...? Wouldn't it possibly be easier to just use height and then overflow:visible to achieve the same effect? I can test around with this but I'm curious if there is a best-practice for this kind of thing... Thanks for any thoughts...v * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] WSG Design competition is now open
As mentioned a week or so ago, We are introducing a design competition for members. Russ, Excellent news about the competition, however I have a question about the voting system. You say All members will only be allowed one vote (though you can change your vote). My question is will the voting results will be kept secret until the voting finishes, or will they be known before voting closes so we can change our vote accordingly? It might make a big difference as to whether or not the poll reflects the true intentions of the group. woric PS: Secret is bad. Big bad. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Thanks all, I guess the many explanations explain just why I've never done it with pure CSS before. I'll go back to my javascript and have a coke and a smile. ;) On 31 Mar 2004, at 07:28, scott parsons wrote: Well it depends upon the exact behaviour desired, and the browsers you want to support, but something like this can be done with the :focus, :target or for win/ie the broken model of :active I wouldn't necessarily suggest that any of these methods are perfect, and would reccommend javascript but hey there are possibilities there s P.H.Lauke wrote: What you describe can only be achieved with javascript, if you want to avoid server calls and do it all in a single document...the page needs to keep track of which link has been pressed, for instance...something that CSS is not meant for... Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster University of Salford www.salford.ac.uk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Trimming the fat
I haven't been following how things are going on PHP5, but do we have a target on when this might be a full stable release (and then have to really start dealing with it)? v On 25 Mar 2004, at 06:38, Justin French wrote: PHP5 looks to have some VERY NICE features in the form of Tidy, which amongst other things, will help clean up HTML output -- either on the way to the browser, or with batch-processing. It can even drop proprietary tags and elements, drop font tags, clean up your CSS, and much more. It won't fix Java, bloated images and flash, or truckloads of presentational tables and all that guff, but it's a nice feature I'll be sure to try when PHP 5 is stable. http://www.zend.com/php5/articles/php5-tidy.php --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Scrollbars in IE6 (PC)
Hi everybody...
I'm having a terrible time trying to figure out just why IE6 (Windows
XP) is throwing scrollbars at me when I view a page in a frame - I'm
really not sure what the trick is to this (if there is one). I hate to
ask dumb or redundant questions, but this one is really nagging.
Thanks for any advice on this...v
Once again, this is being view in a frame...here is the gist of the CSS:
body {
margin: 0px;
}
.container {
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
width: 100%;
}
.subhead1 {
margin: 0px;
padding: 6px 0px 0px 12px;
}
.subhead2 {
margin: 0px;
padding: 3px 12px 1px;
height: 30px;
border-bottom: 1px solid #99;
}
.content {
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
width: 100%;
}
.content-pad {
padding: 0px;
margin: 12px;
}
etc...
The makeup of the file...
div class='container'
div class='subhead1'Just some title text/div
div class='subhead2'
A table at width='100%'...
/div
div class='content'
div class='content-pad'
div class='column'
Lots of things go in here, it varies. Some times a table at
width='100%'
/div
/div
/div
/div
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Re: [WSG] Scrollbars in IE6 (PC)
Yes, but it's not the overflow of the div, it's the frame itself. The page is going larger than the frame window - meaning, the divs aren't respecting the size of the window. Sorry if my explanation was confusing on that point. ;) On 24 Mar 2004, at 09:40, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not quite sure what you mean... maybe this will help. if content of a div is larger than the space provided (eg screen size restriction, or width, height, settings) there is an overflow css attribute to handle it. For example overflow: hidden; hides any thing that doesn't fix, overflow: scroll; will give the div scroll bars, and overflow: visible; will show it usually by stretching the height of the div. Maybe that was completely useless, hope it helps though. Darian * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Serving XHTML as application/xhtml+xml
Depending on the type of document (FAQs, press release, staff list, etc), they run an XSLT to re-format the content. For example, for FAQs, the XSLT goes through each header, anchors it and creates a list of hyperlinks at the top of the page to jump to each FAQ. You can only do this if you author your content in XHTML. Sorry to be a pedant, but this statement is misleading and in my opinion, not very good advice. Using XSLT to transform a document is not limited to XHTML, and using XHTML as the source for XSLT is taking one step forward so you can take 2 steps backwards. One of the main benefits of using XSLT is that it seperates the presentation [the HTML] and the content, which wont happen if you use XHTML. My advice for keeping presentation and content seperate, which is what vlad is promoting here, though he doesnt know that, is to author in XML and then use XSLT to create the HTML for you. For example, write the faq in Xml: FAQ Q=Place question here The answer goes in here. /FAQ Then apply a XSLT script to transform this into a valid Html document. woric PS: I do this on every website I make. See http://xsltfilter.tigris.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Serving XHTML as application/xhtml+xml
I think we're saying the same thing. XHTML is XML and the latest XHTML spec (with the exception of maybe 4 tags) cleanly separates formatting from data. I think we are too, and maybe I need to look into XHTML again. XSLT is a wonderful language but it has nothing to do with separating presentation from content. XSLT does one thing and one thing only - it transforms in input document into an output document based on rules. You are 100% right about this. With hindsight I should said... One of the benefits in using XSLT for making web sites is that you can keep the content and the presentation totally seperate. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] ASP.NET HTML (continued from my Bobby discussion)...
Hi Martin, the page you posted with the sample datagrid is auto-generated. It also looks like your developers had spent at least 30 seconds writing the page. (Click on datagrid component, drop on page, specify table, save page. Thats it, no kidding.) It is not hard to replace the auto-generated datagrid code with templated code which can be written as valid html, but this does require a rudimentary knowledge of ASP.NET, which the developers may not have. Tell them to go and read about templating in MSDN. It has many examples of how to use custom html for the datagrid. But be warned, it will take longer than 30 seconds to write the page. Probably 3 or 4 minutes, or if they are really untalented, 30 or 40 minutes. Good luck. woric * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] FireFox
I don't know if this is common knowledge, but I haven't seen anybody mention this - if this has been reported before sorry. Firefox has an extension called EditCSS that allows you to edit CSS live in your browser. Actually, you can view and edit any CSS from any site (only your machine). Then you can save your changes. This will save me so much time. http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/editcss v * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Font weight weirdness in Safari 1.2?
Hi Todd, I don't have a solution for you, but I too can see the same problem - using Safari 1.2. v On 11 Feb 2004, at 07:07, Hugh Todd wrote: Hey, this is sort of an OT post, but affects my CSS development, so... I'm testing my pages as I go along (coding in BBEdit). But I'm finding that in a sequential series of DIVs, or dls, I'm getting a sort of cumulative weight gain in my fonts, whether they're normal or bold weight. CSS at http://members.ozemail.com.au/~hughtodd/lsp/playvan/playvan.css Very disconcerting. Am I alone here? -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Background PNGs in IE/Win?
What about YoungPup's solution to transparentizing pngs? It seems it's been updated, but worthy reading on the subject... http://www.youngpup.net/?request=/snippets/sleight.xml Jv On 30 Jan 2004, at 04:16, Chris Blown wrote: Just for the record... I wouldn't recommend using this, but it does work. This is totally a DirectX hack and only works in Windows IE. filter:progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader(src='images/ image.png',sizingMethod='scale'); Regards Chris Blown PS. I am not totally against CSS extensions, but they should be done it the correct way, like -moz-opacity : 0.5; On Fri, 2004-01-30 at 06:42, Anton Andreasson wrote: Anyone knows of the support for background (24bit) PNGs in IE/Win? I've seen PNGs show up with a gray box around it, but does this apply when using them in background-image: as well? TIA, /Anton * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Russ' point from last night's meeting
Do people really code/tweak for NS4? My netscape traffic generally ranges less than 3% and I can only imagine that a very small chunk of that is actually NS4. Am I missing something? v On 16 Jan 2004, at 11:10, James Ellis wrote: Hi all For those who didn't make it, Russ in his presentation made a really good point about cross browser implementation Basically we can tweak to 6.7 different browsers but are the people who view our sites going to do the same? Provided the content is structured to be readable for our IE5 and NS4 viewers (for instance) out there, they might just say hey that looks all right They may even label something normal that we call broken. It certainly is a good point to remember when we get stuck in the CSS tweak-to-death mindset. Cheers James * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] re: Sarari CSS
Thanks Russ, Actually, that's not quite it, but it's pretty good. If I manage to find it again (I spent about an hour trying yesterday) I'll send a note along - it also had a nice discussion about producing hacks for the various browsers. Vaska On 14 Jan 2004, at 19:34, russ weakley wrote: Hi Vaska, Are you talking about a Safari browser support chart? Like this: http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/macbrowsercsssupport.html Russ Hi all, I actually hate to ask this, but awhile back I found a resource that had all the possible (both currently supported and not) CSS attributes for the Safari browser. Additionally, it also had Mozilla I believe. Does anybody know where I might find this (these)? Actually, I guess this is off the path from web standards, but I'm still trying to track it down. Thanks much...v * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] re: Sarari CSS
Hi all, I actually hate to ask this, but awhile back I found a resource that had all the possible (both currently supported and not) CSS attributes for the Safari browser. Additionally, it also had Mozilla I believe. Does anybody know where I might find this (these)? Actually, I guess this is off the path from web standards, but I'm still trying to track it down. Thanks much...v * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A few links...
russ, i just wanted to mention that these links you provide perdiodically have really been helping me get up to speed with css - thank you very much! if you're ever in brussels, i'll gladly buy you a beer... and happy 2004 to the list...v On 07 Jan 2004, at 21:18, russ weakley wrote: Abstracting CSS - another thought provoking post at Mezzoblue with discussion: http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/01/07/abstracting_/ CSSED - a tiny GTK2 CSS editor - open source http://cssed.sourceforge.net/ Simple CSS A CSS Authoring Tool http://www.hostm.com/css/ No idea how good either of these tools are yet, just passing on info... Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Vertical align text middle no work?
yes, that would work great, however...i can't force the height (sorry i
didn't mention this previously) because it will wonk up another div where
the height is being set by javascript to fill all the available space in the
window it can (minus the top div height of course)...
what i have done, was set the topthing height to a pixel value, set a top
padding amount and left ample room at the bottom of the div just in case
somebody text zooms to 200%...not really how i wanted to solve this, but
simple is better than not...
and so far, it seems to be testing very well in every browser this way...i
can live with it if i have to...
thanks for your input...vaska
Hi
vertical-align doesn't really work the way valign in a table cell works
- it applies to inline elements and table cell elements only (see css2
rec 10.8.1).
You have to approach the matter from the other way, remove the table
layout hat and put on a box model hat :
div id=topthing
div class=dudewheresmyboxmodel
hi i#039;m top thing text!
/div
/div
#topthing
{
width : auto;
}
.dudewheresmyboxmodel
{
/* t r b l */
margin : 30px 0px 30px 0px;
padding : 2px;
}
so this will align your text to the 'middle' of #topthing. In reality
it's the text forcing the 'height' of the topthing up and down - so it
looks like you have middle aligned text
HTH
james
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