From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> I don't see any reason why [C4] should be harder to read than [cd]. Not for
> humans, and not for computers.
Actually, C4 is not [cd]. C4 is actually [cf] on a 9x9 board. It's something
else on a 19x19 or 13x13 board. The row character depends on the boar
On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 01:16 -0700, Phil G wrote:
> As a community, I believe we can improve SGF by extending the
> specification slightly to allow points to also be encoded in
> "standard" coordinates and depreciated, admittedly slowly, the use of
> the old coordinate system. We already see Go prog
Heikki Levanto wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 10:03:56PM -0700, Phil G wrote:
>
>> To my surprise, GoGui can already read SGF with standard coordinates! :)
>>
>
>
> I think you are muddying the waters by calling non-standard extensions
> 'standard' coordinates.
>
> I don't see any reas
There is a lot to be said about standards, but common sense should
prevail. Very few things have remained the same in computers, such
as the program language you use.I've programmed for years and C is
not the same as it was when I started and will not compile on the
original compilers. I
On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 08:42 -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
> GTP pretty much replace GMP.A lot of resistance because GMP was the
> defacto standard at the time. It would have been foolish to insist on
> being backwards compatible.
GTP was a huge change in protocol with clear benefits. What's bein
to be fair, most K&R code will compile on modern
compilers, if you ask nicely.
s.
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: computer-go
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:42:15 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF
There is a lot to be said about stan
On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 08:29:36AM -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
> I have a few books on GO and there are many articles on the web and they
> all seem to use one standard. Are you saying that the standard is
> really 'cd' and not 'C4' ?
No, I am not saying anything about books and articles. I am say
>>From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> I don't see any reason why [C4] should be harder to read than [cd]. Not for
>> humans, and not for computers.
For computers, C4 and CD are equivalent. For humans, C4 is slightly easier to
process, since this is a common coordinate system used by
There was some chatter a while back concerning it. I offered to admin
it, and possibly to host it. Though there was another taker so not
sure what it's current status is.
-Josh
On 10/22/07, Christoph Birk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What happened to the 19x19 CGOS revival?
>
> Christoph
>
> _
There was some chatter a while back concerning it. I offered to admin
it, and possibly to host it. Though there was another taker so not
sure what it's current status is.
I have installed a 19x19 cgos server here.
but it is still unstable and under test. I have not mentioned it on the
l
On 10/23/07, Jeff Nowakowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 01:16 -0700, Phil G wrote:
> > As a community, I believe we can improve SGF by extending the
> > specification slightly to allow points to also be encoded in
> > "standard" coordinates and depreciated, admittedly slow
But that's backward compatibility.We don't write code that compiles
on old compliers even though we can compile older code on new compilers.
Which is exactly what is being suggested by me. We can improve SGF
without losing the ability to read older SGF files with no sweat.
- Don
steve u
I find it interesting the position I am taking on this.I'm a bit of
believer in not making your parser too forgiving, or gratuitously
breaking standards because it encourages sloppiness. In the days
when PGN files for chess were just starting to become popular, it was
horrible what you woul
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes
< snip >
However, I differently with this issue of allowing "standard" notation
with SGF. I advocate "defining" it as acceptable. One of the primary
reasons for having non-binary formats such as SGF and XML is to make
On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 10:02 -0400, Jason House wrote
> Obviously, small changes can't be done violently as it'd break
> everything. For an sgf reader, this change is so simple to implement,
> it's trivial. By first getting programs to read the formats and make
> converters available, it becomes q
Much of the discussion in this thread has focused very narrowly on
using an XML format to replace SGF, I believe that if an XML format is
to take off, it should offer capabilities beyond what are possible in
SGF, conversion to XML for XMLs sake is pointless. Possibilities
include:
* A person namin
On Oct 23, 2007, at 9:01 AM, Stuart A. Yeates wrote:
Much of the discussion in this thread has focused very narrowly on
using an XML format to replace SGF, I believe that if an XML format is
to take off, it should offer capabilities beyond what are possible in
SGF, conversion to XML for XMLs sa
What is used in Asia?
Terry McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind
masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster
- Original Message
From: Ian Osgood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: computer-go
Sent: Tuesday, October 23
> I'm surprised no one has brought up an obvious benefit of XML: well
> defined character encoding. A prime weakness of SGF is its unspecified
> character encoding. I thought that SGF is not well accepted in Asia
> due to this limitation.
I'm also a firm believer in UTF-8 only. This is an exampl
> I'm surprised no one has brought up an obvious benefit of XML: well
> defined character encoding. A prime weakness of SGF is its unspecified
> character encoding. I thought that SGF is not well accepted in Asia
> due to this limitation.
I'm also a firm believer in UTF-8 only. This is an exampl
On Mon October 22 2007 18:24, Don Dailey wrote:
> > On Mon October 22 2007 10:15, Don Dailey wrote:
> > it also seems to be hard to write an SGF file without bugs.
>
> 20% of the games or 20% of the sources? 20% of the games could have
> come from a single source.
from different sources. You can
I've been looking further at the jago xml format, and for a very
simple game it looks like:
Jago:Version 4.7
19
cheers
stuart
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Does anyone know of a simple GTP engine written in Ruby that I would
be able to use as a starting point?
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I have a simple GO class in ruby that you can have if you are interested
and if I can find it.
It's doesn't do GTP but it creates a game object and validates moves and
calculates scores.
Send me private email if you are interested and I will look around for it.
- Don
Chris Fant wrote:
> Does a
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Olivier Teytaud wrote:
http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/cgosStandings.html
If someone wants to test it, the port is 6919 on machine pc5-120.lri.fr.
10 minutes per side. But only try it if you want to take risks, it is almost
surely
not stable yet, and the connection might be ref
I oppose more time per side.
On 10/23/07, Christoph Birk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Olivier Teytaud wrote:
> > http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/cgosStandings.html
> >
> > If someone wants to test it, the port is 6919 on machine pc5-120.lri.fr.
> > 10 minutes per side. But only try
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Markus Enzenberger wrote:
its not about adding more and more. Its about selecting a few
best-practice norms and conventions. XML is a standard that is
used by a large number of projects and it handles problems on
an intermediate layer that every complicated file format will
r
Jason House wrote:
An XML alternative [1] to SGF has recently come to my attention. What
do others think of this alternative? Personally, the effect of a tag
affecting the previous tag seems kind of strange to me.
For use in GNU Go it would need to have quite compelling benefits to
become i
Less than 20 minutes per side would be practically blitz speed.
- Original Message
From: Chris Fant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I oppose more time per side.
On 10/23/07, Christoph Birk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Olivier Teytaud wrote:
> > http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/cgos
Christoph Birk wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Olivier Teytaud wrote:
http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/cgosStandings.html
If someone wants to test it, the port is 6919 on machine pc5-120.lri.fr.
10 minutes per side. But only try it if you want to take risks, it is
almost surely
not stable yet, and the c
Chris,
I think Olivier is using fast games only because he is testing the
server.
I want to see if Mogo can beat Many Faces at a level that at least
resembles what they play the top 19x19 computer Go tournaments.
But Olivier will be running the server, so it's his choice.
- Don
Chri
What were the time controls for the previous (and short-lived) 19x19 cgos?
On 10/23/07, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> I think Olivier is using fast games only because he is testing the
> server.
>
> I want to see if Mogo can beat Many Faces at a level that at least
> resemb
On 10/23/07, Gunnar Farnebäck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But I can provide a hint for something I would find useful. If it's
> something I'm missing in today's sgf viewers it's a good way to dump and
> inspect a transposition table. It's possible to expand the
> transpositions into a big tree wit
30 minutes per side.
- Don
Chris Fant wrote:
> What were the time controls for the previous (and short-lived) 19x19 cgos?
>
>
> On 10/23/07, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Chris,
>>
>> I think Olivier is using fast games only because he is testing the
>> server.
>>
>> I want to se
Rémi wrote:
> I'll connect Crazy Stone after the tournament in Hakone
> (mid november).
Is it a tournament or the usual annual Game Programming Workshop? Do you
have any more information? I've found a page saying the tentative date
is Nov 9th to Nov 11th, but haven't yet tracked down exact informa
> yes. Allowing everyone to add non-standard properties means that
> you cannot validate the files in a meaningful way anymore.
> Also, I haven't really seen convincing use cases for non-standard
> properties. SGF defines (more than) enough, even if some of them
> are a bit underspecified ...
I've
The Workshop itself is usual but we have a local computer-go
tournament as a night event this year (and possibly following
years).
-Hideki
Darren Cook: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Rémi wrote:
>> I'll connect Crazy Stone after the tournament in Hakone
>> (mid november).
>
>Is it a tournament or the usua
Ok for 30 minutes after the testing phase (for the tests
I guess that 10 minutes is too long :-) ).
For the moment I am trying to get the authorization
of opening a port for socket connection -
for the moment I guess only
people in the same laboratory as me can connect to
the machine, what is no
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