Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-06 Thread David Woolley
Rich wrote: I am not an audiologist (?) but isn't a harmonic that is 45db below the fundamental tone essentially non-detectable to normal hearing? Kind of why the harmonics of a RF carrier are to be 40dbs down. The transmitter limits are legislative/engineering compromises. They reflect what

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-05 Thread Jim Brown
On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 17:51:42 -0700 (PDT), Rich wrote: >I am not an audiologist (?) but isn't a harmonic that is 45db below the >fundamental tone essentially non-detectable to normal hearing? It depends on the order of the harmonic. There are studio processors that INTENTIONALLY generate 2nd harm

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-05 Thread Rich
I am not an audiologist (?) but isn't a harmonic that is 45db below the fundamental tone essentially non-detectable to normal hearing? Kind of why the harmonics of a RF carrier are to be 40dbs down. Rich -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-Harmonic-Distortion-tp797780p842

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-05 Thread Lyle Johnson
Paul Christensen wrote: Hmmmmy schematic shows TLV320ACC23 for U29. I see that, too. The "D" is missing. Lyle ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Ch

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-05 Thread Paul Christensen
Hmmmmy schematic shows TLV320ACC23 for U29. Paul, W9AC - Original Message - From: "Lyle Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "P.B. Christensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Disto

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-05 Thread Lyle Johnson
...I believe the device listed as U29 on the K3 schematic may be a mis-print and my best guess is that's it's the Texas Instruments TLV320AIC23 -- as is the case with U7. The schematic is correct, U29 is a TLV320DAC23. 73, Lyle KK7P ___ Elecraft mai

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-05 Thread P.B. Christensen
> "As near as I can see from tracing from one sheet to another, U29, a TLV320ACC23 DAC with integrated headphone amplifier drives the TTC-108 LIN OUT transformers directly. Headphone and speaker audio, in contrast, are derived from a second TLV320 DAC driving a LM4950 amplifier for speaker ou

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-04 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
n, G4ILO > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:20 AM > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion > > > > The measurements that have been made seem to suggest that the > problem is not regular distortion or clipping. I am wondering > if it

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-04 Thread Jack Smith
David: Even a rather poor transformer improves significantly when driven by a "zero ohm" source such as an op amp. The typical modem line transformers that are spec'd at 0.5% THD, for example, come in one to two orders of magnitude better when driven by a low impedance source. In fact, it's at

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-04 Thread David Cutter
I haven't done the sort of testing that you must do for your applications, but I've used the OEP8000 transformers in several applications with good results for speech only. I've no idea of its high frequency response. They are tiny in comparison. http://www.oep.co.uk/admin/UploadDocuments/OEP

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-04 Thread NZ0T
This may be a glass half full response but being an old hearing impaired guy has it's positives: 1. Ignoring XYL when needed and excusing it by pointing to hearing aids. 2. Sleeping like a baby every night with said hearing aids removed. 3. Not hearing any distortion in my K3. Life is good 7

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-04 Thread Julian, G4ILO
The measurements that have been made seem to suggest that the problem is not regular distortion or clipping. I am wondering if it is some kind of quantisation effect due to the fact that the signal processing is digital or analog? I am thinking of the fact that there are people who claim that viny

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-03 Thread Paul Fletcher
Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote: > > The solution is simply not pushing the output gain and keeping > the output under 1V peak and use high impedance devices. With > the speaker amplifier 800 mW into a 16 Ohm speaker shows less > than .01% THD+N - if more audio is necessary 1V peak will easily > dr

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-03 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
08 9:39 AM > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion > > > > Clearly I must be missing something. > > In my view, all the reported distortion numbers are beyond > expectations. After all you are buying a $2K radio, not a >

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-03 Thread alsopb
Clearly I must be missing something. In my view, all the reported distortion numbers are beyond expectations. After all you are buying a $2K radio, not a many kilobuck audio system. The "problems" people are having with "harmonics" when they listen to CW with a 2.7KHz filter/DSP setting seem to

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-03 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
VP8NO writes: > Perhaps someone suitably qualified and tooled up might like to try and > [repeat] and comment upon the view presented by Rob Sherwood at the > Dayton convention. According to him the K3 audio amp stage has > serious shortcomings. I had to listen to the audio of Sherwood's tal

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Brendan Minish
In my previous posting I referenced to a couple of plots I made of the Line output using a wideband RF noise source I put the 2 plots on my blog here http://ei6iz.com/?p=22 73 Brendan EI6IZ -- Don‘t complain. Nobody will understand. Or care. And certainly don‘t try to fix the situation your

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
To: Jack Smith; Brendan Minish > Cc: Elecraft > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion > > > I find virtually the same results here using 50uV RF from an > Elecraft signal source, and measuring using Wave Spectra. > An offset of 43 to 45dB, and below LIN OUT = 5 the har

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Lyle Johnson
only to be sure - if I have in CONFIG: LINE OUT - PHONES which D/A is used - this one for SP/PHONES ? LINE OUT is always driven by the LINE OUT DAC. 73, Lyle KK7P ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber t

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Alexandr Kobranov
Hi Lyle, only to be sure - if I have in CONFIG: LINE OUT - PHONES which D/A is used - this one for SP/PHONES ? Then LINE OUT level is controlled by AF knob so I suppose that PH/SP channel is used but not sure. Thanks Lexa, OK1DST Lyle Johnson napsal(a): There are three distinct stereo a

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Jim Brown
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:36:19 -0700, Mike Scott wrote: >I know that LIN OUT and AGC settings might interplay, Yes. >so for what it is >worth I run LIN OUT gain at 3, AGC SLP = 10, AGC THR = 6. Other parameters >are default. I haven't studied what the ideal settings are, but I would follow Lyle'

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Jim Brown
On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:06:29 +0100, Brendan Minish wrote: >I used an old copy of SMAART pro that I have from my Sound engineering >days. I have that software, and have long used it to analyze ham filters. >the sound card is a delta44 I don't know this card, but it's own noise floor (or inpu

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Stewart Baker
I find virtually the same results here using 50uV RF from an Elecraft signal source, and measuring using Wave Spectra. An offset of 43 to 45dB, and below LIN OUT = 5 the harmonics drop rapidly. 73 Stewart G3RXQ On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:28:02 -0400, Jack Smith wrote: > Brendan: > > You might wish

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Lyle Johnson
There are three distinct stereo audio channels in the K3, and they all have slightly different characteristics. LINE OUT This has its own digital-to-analog converter (DAC) and is transformer isolated. PHONES This shares a DAC with the speaker channel, but has its own amplifier and isolatin

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:34:31 -0700 From: Lyle Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There are three distinct audio channels in the K3, and they all have slightly different characteristics. LINE OUT This has its own digital-to-analog converter (DAC) and is transformer isolated.

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Brendan Minish
On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 12:28 -0400, Jack Smith wrote: > > However, setting the LIN OUT at 2 results in quite a bit better odd > order harmonic suppression, on the order of nearly 70 dB. This might be due to simply running out of usable bits to represent accurately the harmonics at the low end o

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Lyle Johnson
There are three distinct audio channels in the K3, and they all have slightly different characteristics. LINE OUT This has its own digital-to-analog converter (DAC) and is transformer isolated. PHONES This shares a DAC with the speaker channel, but has its own amplifier and isolating resis

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Jack Smith
Brendan: You might wish to look at the measurements I made, with LIN OUT settings from 2 to 100. There's an animated GIF that steps through the LIN OUT settings so you can see the effect. The data was taken at 600 Hz. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm about ha

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Jim Brown
On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:53:23 -0400, Jack Smith wrote: >The solution of choice in my opinion for the >Softrock receivers turns out to be a MILSPEC Triad transformer, SP-70, >with excellent frequency response and quite low distortion. In single >lot prices, an SD-70 costs about four times as much

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Brendan Minish
Jack I have seen postings on the main reflector recommending settings as low as 3 to avoid distortion products that are being attributed to transformer distortion. This did not really make sense to me, especially at such low levels where consumer sound cards tend to get non-linear and nasty. I t

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Jack Smith
Working through the K3's schematic this morning, it seems that both the headphone output port and the LIN OUT port are driven by similar devices, a Texas Instruments DAC with integrated headphone amplifier. (Two DACs, one for LIN OUT and one for headphones and speaker output.) As near as I can

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU
It would be nice to see this problem with the the K3IO board addressed at some point. It may be, as Jim K9YC has hinted, related to core saturation from low frequency components that could attenuated before reaching the board. Or it may be that the transformers that fit in the space are as bi

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Mike Scott
>Anyway, the "noise/distortion" is still there coming out of the headphone socket. Berni, this is a technical group and as such we need hard data and not subjective descriptions of what you hear coming out of the headphone jack. I don't doubt that you are hearing something. There is very little I

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Mike Harris
From: "Jim Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Elecraft List" Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion | On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 18:45:36 -0400, Jack Smith wrote: | | >I've found that the LIN OUT port has typical third ha

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-02 Thread Julian, G4ILO
The spectrum display you sent me shows an excessive level of 50 Hz harmonics - some 15 dB above the noise floor and only 40 dB below the desired signal from 150 Hz to above 3 KHz. That strongly indicates serious grounding issues, power supply filtering problems, improper power supply decoupli

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
, September 01, 2008 7:13 PM > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion > > > Yes indeed it would be a sorry situation if an operator can't > tell the difference between a desired signal and an audio > harmonic, fortunately > my thre

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Jim Brown
On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 18:45:36 -0400, Jack Smith wrote: >I've found that the LIN OUT port has typical third harmonic levels >around -45 dB from the fundamental, with the LIN OUT level set at 10, >the factory default. The headphone port, under the same conditions, will >show the third harmonic do

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread K7TV
Julian, G4ILO wrote: >I think it was me who used the term "ghost" signals when referring to the harmonically related CW traces >I could see on the CW Skimmer display. Julian, About 6 months ago I found a similar situation with another radio and another program. In that case the distortion was d

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Berni G0IDA
he cables) which is well below the "band noise" - typically around -60 dBu. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 1:33 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subjec

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Jack Smith
I've found that the LIN OUT port has typical third harmonic levels around -45 dB from the fundamental, with the LIN OUT level set at 10, the factory default. The headphone port, under the same conditions, will show the third harmonic down about 70 dB or so at levels appropriate for my Sony high

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
ge- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Berni G0IDA > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 3:20 PM > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion > > > Thanks everyone for the replies. > > I just would l

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
signals at the soundcard input (noise on the cables) which is well below the "band noise" - typically around -60 dBu. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Brown > Sent: Monday, Septem

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Julian, G4ILO
I think it was me who used the term "ghost" signals when referring to the harmonically related CW traces I could see on the CW Skimmer display. I probably would have been completely unaware of it if I had never tried this program. It was only obvious as I was listening to CW with a narrow filter a

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread David Woolley (E.L)
Berni G0IDA wrote: I just would like to put this thread back onto its tracks. The problem is with CW (although SSB does suffer too) and the main problem is that I can hear the 3rd harmonic which when mixed with the fundamental makes a rough note on CW especially when tuning away going up

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Jack Smith
I've made a number of measurements on the K3's audio output a few days ago in CW mode and again today, this time with two close spaced signals inside the SSB filter as well as a single tone. Yes, there are 3rd and other odd-order harmonics and, to a lesser degree, even order harmonics. Howev

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Berni G0IDA
Thanks everyone for the replies. I just would like to put this thread back onto its tracks. The problem is with CW (although SSB does suffer too) and the main problem is that I can hear the 3rd harmonic which when mixed with the fundamental makes a rough note on CW especially when tuning a

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Jim Brown
On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:38:31 -0400, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >Jim is entirely correct although we will disagree a bit about >the need to keep the line out as low as he suggests. My own >measurements say the harmonic distortion is insignificant as >long as the Line Out levels stay below .5V RMS.

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
ailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of n4lq > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 12:14 PM > To: Jim Brown; elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion > > > Jim > None of those things helps. I can reduce my LINE OUT gain to > 1 and still see

RE: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV
m: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Brown > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 12:06 PM > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion > > > On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:30:45 +0100, Berni G0IDA wrote: > > >

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread n4lq
stortion in the speaker output but I'm told that this is a separate amplifier. Steve Ellington [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Jim Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion On Mo

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Jim Brown
On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:30:45 +0100, Berni G0IDA wrote: >I hope there is a cure for this as it's frustrating listening to CW with >this sort of distortion. There are three things you should do. 1) Make sure that the AGC is on, and that the CONFIG AGC settings are at the defaults. 2) Reduce

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Jack Smith
I will also try two simultaneous signals and see if I can duplicate your mixing observations. Jack K8ZOA Berni G0IDA wrote: Hi Everyone, I'm re doing the thread as this time I have some concrete findings to share with you and wail be writing to Elecraft about this problem. My previous thr

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Harmonic Distortion

2008-09-01 Thread Jack Smith
Berni: Have you looked at my measurements of K3 audio distortion at http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_receive_audio.htm ? Indeed, there is odd order harmonic distortion, but that's commonly found in all receivers. The issue is how far down the distortion products are. A waterfal