://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV
as both very limited and the same...
Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via
EV
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM
To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
Mark
[mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW
via
EV
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM
To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
Mark,
Please stop wittering on and actually address some of the points the anti
H2
To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion
List ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 27-Jun-14 1:51:59 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)
But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the
density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel
: Thursday, June 26, 2014 6:14 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it.
On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
Yes, an energy carrier. I
Can you tell us how the survey was worded? The one resulting in a desire for
renewable fuels?
On June 26, 2014 11:25:14 AM CST, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
Are you saying that the main problem
] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
Can you tell us how the survey was worded? The one resulting in a desire
for renewable fuels?
On June 26, 2014 11:25:14 AM CST, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote
@lists.evdl.org
To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion
List ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 27-Jun-14 1:51:59 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)
But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the
density of chemical fuel for the long
: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:21 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
Old news.
http
Hello Mark,
My contention was not to w(h)ine but to point out the technical
deficiencies that needed to be addressed. Have they been addressed???
In reading the latest ad from Toyota on their 2015 FCV, the tanks will
store hydrogen at 70 mega-pascals which converts to slightly over 10,000
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
Sorry, finger slipped before I was done.
**
Sounds like a very old analysis.
Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your
first clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via
EV
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM
To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
Mark,
Please stop wittering on and actually address some
...@enviropolicy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:21 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
Old news.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/planning/vision/docs/vision_for_clean_air_public_r
eview_draft.pdf
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 26, 2014, at 7:32 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Folks,
EV's and Hydorgen fuel cell cars are NOT in competition. (except in
Toyota's fantasy dreams).. There is no need to get worked up.
EV's are far, far better for local travel and daily commuting ...
Are you saying that the main problem with battery electrics
is also that most of the power it uses is not renewable?
Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have SOLAR
or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities. It is -not- a
coincidence that those who want to
On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Are you saying that the main problem with battery electrics
is also that most of the power it uses is not renewable?
Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have SOLAR
or sign up for 100%
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
Catastrophic failures would be catastrophic.
To me, this is it in a nutshell. A gasoline tank explosion would pale in
comparison
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the
: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
On Jun 26, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Mark,
I asked you to give background for your absolute statement that an
unproven technology is the only solution
I did not, and have never said that. I said:
It is just
Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have
SOLAR or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities.
Very interesting and promising statistic.
Do you have a cite?
Yes. Thanks for making me look it up. Its actually 60% in this study if
you include those that would
BEVs will run on electricity you can make on your rooftop or back yard. Try
that with an ICEV or FCV. It can be done (veggie van anyone?), but the cost
and complexity can be daunting and it's not for the average guy.
The big energy companies like the idea of FCVs because it preserves their
Thanks.
ITS does lots of interesting stuff.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 26, 2014, at 10:24 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have
SOLAR or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities.
Very interesting and
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
-Original Message-
From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:51 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
On Jun 26, 2014, at 12:09
On Jun 26, 2014, at 11:37 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
BEVs will run on electricity you can make on your rooftop or back yard. Try
that with an ICEV or FCV. It can be done (veggie van anyone?), but the cost
and complexity can be daunting and it's not for the
On 26 Jun 2014 at 13:00, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
Your premise is wrong. The big energy companies do *not* like FCVs.
I suspect that they'd much prefer them to BEVs.
Remember, hydrogen is not really a fuel. You can't pump it out of the
ground. You have to make it from some other
On Jun 26, 2014, at 4:04 PM, EVDL Administrator evp...@drmm.net wrote:
On 26 Jun 2014 at 13:00, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
Your premise is wrong. The big energy companies do *not* like FCVs.
I suspect that they'd much prefer them to BEVs.
Remember, hydrogen is not really a fuel.
Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you.
But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason
that everyone who understands Physics draws the conclusion
that there is no future in Hydrogen as fuel because it is
worse than just using the source energy (that what is used
to
: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
Yes, an energy carrier. I
On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you.
But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason
that everyone who understands Physics draws the conclusion
that there is no future in Hydrogen
Mark Abramowitz wrote:
If you are saying that using natural gas directly in an ICE as
opposed to converting it to Hydrogen is a more efficient use,
I would tell you that you are missing my point.
That is exactly what I am saying and I love to hear your point.
In contrast to you, I love
Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it.
On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you.
But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason
that everyone who understands Physics draws
Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 6:14 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it.
On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev
List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it.
On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you.
But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency
Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little
sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The
business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for
trucks and road warriors).
BUT!
There is a future for hydrogen in utility scale
Surely there is a more efficient way of storing excess electric power than
this?! Even pumping water up into reservoirs and then dropping again through
turbines (like the UK national grid does in wales
http://www.fhc.co.uk/ffestiniog.htm ) must be more efficient? Wont work very
well in the
.
Peri
-- Original Message --
From: Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion
List ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 25-Jun-14 8:28:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
Surely there is a more efficient way of storing
On Jun 25, 2014, at 7:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little
sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The
business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for
Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes
little sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their
garage). The business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it
is needed for trucks and road warriors).
I'm not sure what you mean by needed for trucks and
On 6/25/2014 9:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no infrastructure) makes little
sense compared to EV’s (everyone has an outlet in their garage). The
business model for hydrogen cars is very weak (though it is needed for
trucks and road warriors).
I've heard of this many times, but personally I've real concerns about the use
of ammonia.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Geoff Pullinger via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
On 6/25/2014 9:36 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
Generally, Hydrogen for transportation (no
The difficulty in using Ammonia is, the ammonia used is Anhydrous Ammonia
100% and that is deadly poison at only a few percent when breathed.
Household ammonia is less than 5% concentration in water and not useable in
the process. Forget It !! I don't want to certainly die by poisoning in a
minor
Sorry, that is Hazardous Material Handling protocol.
*Dennis Lee Miles *
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Dennis Miles dmiles33...@gmail.com wrote:
The difficulty in using Ammonia is, the ammonia used is Anhydrous Ammonia
100% and that is deadly poison at only a few percent when
AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the efficiency
of various fuels. Their standard was an EV with the equivalent of 50
MPG. A similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen produced from reformatted
natural gas and fed into a fuel cell, was the equivalent of 30 mpg while
] On Behalf Of Peter Eckhoff
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 3:48 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the efficiency
of various fuels. Their standard was an EV with the equivalent of 50
MPG
Sorry, finger slipped before I was done.
**
Sounds like a very old analysis.
Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your first
clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own challenges, too. But it's just not
productive to focus on those as have all the
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
Sorry, finger slipped before I was done.
**
Sounds like a very old analysis.
Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your
first clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own
Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
There are a number of you that think that this is a technology food
fight. It's not. Any food fight is one way, and fortunately you're just
shouting into your own echo chamber.
That's a good thing, because despite
In the 1990's Honda sold an ICE Accord that had zero emissions. In LA it
made cleaner exhaust than what it aspirated. (Ignoring the CO2) The
meaning if zero is slippery, but the point is still there - even ICE can be
pretty good WRT to clean air, if not carbon.
A main problem with H2 is
On Jun 25, 2014, at 8:45 PM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote:
In the 1990's Honda sold an ICE Accord that had zero emissions. In LA it
made cleaner exhaust than what it aspirated. (Ignoring the CO2) The meaning
if zero is slippery, but the point is still there - even ICE can
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