Who says the 60's is out of style !
James Taylor holds true to form, and brings along some friends for the
experience:
At about 42 minutes in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfQf5Y545J4
OffWorld
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_re...@... wrote:
Whatever the cynics
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
Supposedly some translations engines use Sanskrit as an
intermediate language because it is unambiguous. The program
will take text in a language and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltabl...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal
L.Shaddai@ wrote:
We're probably looking at years of reruns of the inauguration on
FFL alone. Maharishi's barely gone a year and already we've
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal
l.shad...@... wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpRqvCps_MQ
Hitler is now down with the Jews, Gays and Blacks. A new age
has dawned today. Hail, Messiah! Hail, The One!
Hey L.Shaddai,
Remember when you were back on your course
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes103@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@
wrote:
But generally I'll hurry past a guitarist in case they start
playing this:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_re...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
Supposedly some translations engines use Sanskrit as an
intermediate language
And I have new respect for Springstien that I lacked before:
See about 15 minutes in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfQf5Y545J4
OffWorld
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_re...@...
wrote:
U2 sings their song form the days before LiveAid (Irish [Sir] Bob
Gledof's
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:
For anyone who missed it, video of Bush's helicopter
taking off from the White House for the last time and
disappearing in the distance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ7zRVuo7jQ
I had to go out this afternoon and didn't
On Jan 20, 2009, at 10:24 PM, grate.swan wrote:
At some point some very secular, simple, effective, inexpensive method
will emerge. With a good narrative. And that does have a marked effect
on learning, retention, creativity, synthesis of ideas, etc. Within 10
years it could have 80%
[ A rap, probably interesting only to those who dig language
or the principles of software design or both. Caveat emptor. ]
I admit to being fascinated by the topic of whether Sanskrit
would be a useful intermediate language for use in machine
translation software, because I am fascinated by
---Millions of cubicle dwellers across the country helped set records
for Internet traffic on Tuesday as they watched online video of the
inauguration ceremonies or at least tried to. The overwhelming
demand meant that some Web sites and data networks had trouble keeping
up, forcing many
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
For anyone who missed it, video of Bush's helicopter
taking off from the White House for the last time and
disappearing in the distance:
On Jan 20, 2009, at 10:24 PM, grate.swan wrote:
At some point some very secular, simple, effective, inexpensive
method
will emerge. With a good narrative. And that does have a marked
effect
on learning, retention, creativity, synthesis of ideas, etc.
Within 10
years it could have
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_re...@...
wrote:
Yea that's me on the left at the bottom Magoo.
Is that you with the t-shirt and the belt beside the woman with brown
hair?
(But really Shemp, what is your obsession with me?...
When I read some of the
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:
For example, the first stage would probably be searching for
known patterns again -- in this case, idioms, phrases that
consist of several words that, when placed together in a
certain order, pretty much always mean the
With Obama's pick for Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan, it looks
like we could see a repackaging of Bush's No Child Left Behind. Bush
designed NCLB to slowly destroy public education with the intention of
privatizing failing schools, thereby increasing the disparity between
the haves and have
Turq,
The last time I scanned the field of A.I., I came away thinking that
your well-reasoned below approach has been used many times by the best
of the best minds and found far more challenging an approach than
expected.
The A.I. industry's shop-talk admits that this approach requires the
At some point some very secular, simple, effective, inexpensive
method
will emerge. With a good narrative. And that does have a marked
effect
on learning, retention, creativity, synthesis of ideas, etc.
...
I too did TM throughout college and I'd have to say it's primary
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcg...@...
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@
wrote:
Yea that's me on the left at the bottom Magoo.
Is that you with the t-shirt and the belt beside the woman with
brown
hair?
Yes.
From a friend:
A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he cannot
afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent TM
teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco Bay
Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 3:47 AM, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.comwrote:
Hey L.Shaddai,
Remember when you were back on your course
and I pointed out the sometimes manic nature
of your posts while there and on program,
and that you might want to look at that later
to see whether it
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:
I have an approach that I've never seen considered in my A.I.
readings, and since I am a bear of little brain, I've discounted it
greatly -- thinking, who could I be to have insight into this
challenge when all these huge
Rick,
Do you feel the puja etc. is necessary for the technique to get
activated by Guru Dev or something of that ilk?
Seems to me that an ancient ritual has a chance of helping (deluding?)
a newbie to imprint on the technique, so that's a practical benefit,
but do you actually think there's
Time to temper the euphoria with commonsense and avoid delusion! Is the author
a bit pessimestic? It's positive to be vigilant and, find ways to participate
in 'giving back'.
Arhata
Is it just me?
Gerald Warner
Telegraph.co. uk
Barack Obama
What's wrong with hope?
After eight years, nay, three decades of shuck and jive presidents,
along comes one who truly offers a different approach, and yet
naysayers are panicking and tarring our new guy with a broad brush
before he's even done with his first day in office.
What's wrong with
SAVE THE DATE!
GLOBAL BENEFIT CONCERT
PAUL MCCARTNEY
FRIENDS | SATURDAY, APRIL 4, 2009
A once in a
lifetime event!
Teach one million
kids to meditate
Radio City Music Hall
New York City
Contact us today
Concert.DavidLynchFoundation.org
Guest stars to be announced soon!
Hope is great.
When one 'hits the field', it's passion to get the job done, meeting the
challenges
as they surely will come incessantly. At the end of day and the beginning of
the
next - push the hope button. People should enjoy the moment, but be vigilant
for
the shadowy and invisible rocks
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_re...@...
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings
no_reply@
wrote:
Yea that's me on the left at the bottom Magoo.
Is
Worship imbues the object of focus with vibration, feeling, sound, and
resonance with unseen, unspoken mystical power, beyond the senses,
whether it is the Catholic Eucharist, Native American dances and
chants, prayers to Mecca, a pilgrimage to the Haj, yagynas, a fire
ceremony, Buddhist rituals,
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:
What's wrong with hope?
After eight years, nay, three decades of shuck and jive presidents,
along comes one who truly offers a different approach, and yet
naysayers are panicking and tarring our new guy with a broad brush
Rick, the friend of your friend wants
to learn TM from Paul Brown.
http://www.thequietpath.org/
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote:
From a friend:
A friend of mine is very interested in
learning TM, though he cannot
afford the current fee of $2500. Does
anyone
TurquoiseB wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_re...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
Supposedly some translations engines use Sanskrit as an
TurquoiseB wrote:
[ A rap, probably interesting only to those who dig language
or the principles of software design or both. Caveat emptor. ]
I admit to being fascinated by the topic of whether Sanskrit
would be a useful intermediate language for use in machine
translation software, because
Is this contagious!?
Gordon Brown brings Britain to the edge of bankruptcy
Iain Martin says the Prime Minister hasn't 'saved the world' and now faces
disgrace in the history books
They don't know what they're doing, do they? With every step taken by the
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Nelson nelsonriddle2...@...
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
What's wrong with hope?
After eight years, nay, three decades of shuck and jive presidents,
along comes one who truly offers a different approach,
This is one of the reasons why I always felt someone like Deepak
Chopra should have begun his experience in the TMO as a Flower Boy on
Saturday mornings. Chopra is very much someone who, deservedly, was
a star pupil because he studied his ass off...but he was also the
Dauphin-like golden boy.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozg...@... wrote:
As as software professional and developer/designer my first step
would be to buy some time from linguistics experts. I would also
brainstorm with other developers on solutions to the problem of
language translation. Then
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:
snip
As for the website Bhairitu pointed to, all that
you have to do to see its True Believer nature
is to do a mental search and replace on the
text in it and replace every mention of Sanskrit
with Hebrew. Then you'll see
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote:
From a friend:
A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he
cannot
afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent
TM
teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_re...@...
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
snip
raunchydog isn't angry anyway, she's mocking the
excess of the day, and rightfully so. I hope I'd
have had the grace to be embarrassed by it if I
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozg...@... wrote:
snip
What else would Sanskrit scholars be looking at if
it wasn't spiritual texts, Turq? That seems to be
the only stuff that survived.
Not according to Briggs:
Besides works of literary value, there was a long
philosophical
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcg...@...
wrote:
This is one of the reasons why I always felt someone like Deepak
Chopra should have begun his experience in the TMO as a Flower Boy on
Saturday mornings. Chopra is very much someone who, deservedly, was
a star pupil
--(has a 415 telephone #): ...TM teacher available at
http://www.thequietpath.org
- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M compost...@...
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@
wrote:
This is one of the reasons why I always felt someone like Deepak
On Jan 21, 2009, at 12:30 AM, shempmcgurk wrote:
A Google Image search of Tom Barlow brings up the following mugs.
Will the real Tom Barlow...?
Choose the FairfieldLife Tom Barlow and you can win an all-expenses
paid trip for two to Swanton, Vermont:
Second prize is 2 trips...
Sal
On Jan 21, 2009, at 2:38 AM, off_world_beings wrote:
Who says the 60's is out of style !
James Taylor holds true to form, and brings along some friends for
the experience:
That's our boy. Still sounds great.
Sal
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcg...@...
wrote:
This is one of the reasons why I always felt someone like Deepak
Chopra should have begun his experience in the TMO as a Flower Boy on
Saturday mornings. Chopra is very much someone who, deservedly, was
a star pupil
SNOPES confirms this as a true virus.
THERE IS AN EMAIL WITH SUBJECT LINE OBAMA ACCEPTANCE SPEECH FLOATING
AROUND WITH A TROJAN HORSE ATTACHMENT. DO NOT OPEN FOR ANY
REASON!!! DELETE IMMEDIATELY. THE TROJAN STEALS ALL PASSWORDS AND
USER IDS!!!
It's real, all right! Check out the full
Have no fear- The Great Obama will provide whatever instruction is
necessary.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@...
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote:
From a friend:
A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though
do.rflex wrote:
The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by Maharishi
about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own
experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed.
So, are you equally comfortable the to give an
official-as-decreed-by-MMY second lecture in
Edg, in my opinion the adherence to the Gotta
do the puja thang comes from many sources. One
is the overall Maharishisez EQUALS gotta
mindset that was drilled into us for so many
years or decades.
Another is the fact that many teachers really
*did* feel a buzz from doing puja. I never
felt much
http://www.newsweek.com/id/180457
LETTERS
White House Advice
The author of 'The Color Purple' cautions Obama
not to lose himself, or his soul, to the burdens
of the office.
By Alice Walker | NEWSWEEK
Published Jan 19, 2009
From the magazine issue dated Jan 21, 2009
Dear Brother President:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:
do.rflex wrote:
The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by Maharishi
about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own
experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed.
So, are you
authfriend wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:
snip
As for the website Bhairitu pointed to, all that
you have to do to see its True Believer nature
is to do a mental search and replace on the
text in it and replace every mention of Sanskrit
with
TurquoiseB wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozg...@... wrote:
As as software professional and developer/designer my first step
would be to buy some time from linguistics experts. I would also
brainstorm with other developers on solutions to the problem of
Everybody sing along now:
Ding dong the Bush is gone,
the wicked, wicked Bush is gone.
Ding dong the wicked Bush is gone!
Ding dong Dick Cheney's gone,
the wicked wicked Cheney's gone.
Ding dong the wicked Cheney's gone!
BTW, I head the sun came once Bush flew away from the White House. ;-)
On Jan 21, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Bhairitu wrote:
Everybody sing along now:
Ding dong the Bush is gone,
the wicked, wicked Bush is gone.
Ding dong the wicked Bush is gone!
Ding dong Dick Cheney's gone,
the wicked wicked Cheney's gone.
Ding dong the wicked Cheney's gone!
BTW, I head the sun
Okay, I'll play along with your game once more.
Do you give full knowledge about the mantras when you give a second
lecture?
Edg
-- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex do.rf...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
do.rflex wrote:
The
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozg...@... wrote:
authfriend wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
snip
As for the website Bhairitu pointed to, all that
you have to do to see its True Believer nature
is to do a mental search and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@...
wrote:
On Jan 21, 2009, at 12:30 AM, shempmcgurk wrote:
A Google Image search of Tom Barlow brings up the following
mugs.
Will the real Tom Barlow...?
Choose the FairfieldLife Tom Barlow and you can win an all-
expenses
Just a heads up that the new season of Lost on ABC starts tonight. I
know there are a number of fans here.
Also the second half of Fringe's season on Fox started last night and I
thought that episode was quite good. Fringe is also another J.J. Abrams
creation.
The final episodes of
OK, but Criminal Minds is on tonight at 9 PM, followed by CSI NY.
And tomorrow the first episode without Grissom, the character now
played by Larry Fishburne.---
In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozg...@... wrote:
Just a heads up that the new season of Lost on ABC starts tonight.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:
Okay, I'll play along with your game once more.
Do you give full knowledge about the mantras when you give a second
lecture?
That's better.
I haven't initiated for a long time, but when I did, I'd answer
questions openly
One secular, simple, effective, inexpensive method that is
scientifically varified is from Heartmath (heartmath.com). They sell
a simple biofeedback, heart monitor that signals when your heart
rythms are in entrainment called the Emwave. http://www.emwave.com/
With minimal coaching, one can
Not sure you answered me, cuz, I want to know if you, as I did,
outrightly lied about the mantras utilizing a variety of diversions,
subtrafuges, misdirections, spinnings, and lies.
I assured my audiences that these mantras were known for their
life-supporting effects and had been refined
That's what DVRs are for. I can watch CSI OnDemand anyway so don't need
to record it. The Comcast DVR has two tuners (which most DVRs have
these days) plus I have an HDHomeRun box on my network with two digital
tuners so I can record shows to any computer on the network and play
them back
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:
Not sure you answered me, cuz, I want to know if you, as I did,
outrightly lied about the mantras utilizing a variety of diversions,
subtrafuges, misdirections, spinnings, and lies.
No. I didn't. And I think it's shameful
Instruct me then:
How would you answer the below questions from a first lecture audience:
Hi! My brother's an initiator and so I have an insider's viewpoint
that has led me to ask these questions:
Where did these mantras come from? Who invented them? How are they
used and why? Did Maharishi
Scroll down:
http://gamu-toys.info/sonota/sw/obama/obama.html
(Site is slow to load, but worth the wait.)
H/t Andrew Leonard of Salon
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:
Instruct me then:
How would you answer the below questions from a first lecture audience:
Hi! My brother's an initiator and so I have an insider's viewpoint
that has led me to ask these questions:
I'd likely have
Here's a spiritual exercise for you.
You all know the actress Meryl Steep. You know her
from her many roles, and the skill she has exhibited
in them. Most of those roles have been sympathetic,
people you can empathize with and love.
Now imagine her as horror incarnate, the incarnation
of all
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, boo_lives boo_li...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Nelson nelsonriddle2001@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
What's wrong with hope?
After eight years, nay, three decades of shuck and
Fairfield Life Post Counter
===
Start Date (UTC): Sat Jan 17 00:00:00 2009
End Date (UTC): Sat Jan 24 00:00:00 2009
506 messages as of (UTC) Wed Jan 21 23:53:25 2009
42 TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com
34 I am the eternal l.shad...@gmail.com
33 authfriend
I've gotten some preliminary information back, more details to follow.
Amma's ashram in Kerela is highly regarded and costs $3 a day for room and
board and $3 a day for PK. Delhi used to be the place to go for PK, cost
€90 a day (all inclusive rate), but now Hyderabad is preferred, cost is €70
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote:
From a friend:
A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he
cannot
afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent
TM
teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco
received e mail reply from Jerry Jarvis; in regard to the challenge
posed by Edg that I forward his (Edg's) statements/opinions to Jerry.
He says you (Edg) are welcome to talk to him personally about topics
and insinuations as stated previously (basically in regard to what you
feel was Jerry's
David Lynch Foundation
http://www.stressfreesummit.org/video/
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:
do.rflex wrote:
The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by Maharishi
about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own
experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed.
So, are you
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig lengli...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
snip
So, are you equally comfortable the to give an
official-as-decreed-by-MMY second lecture in
which you are required to shuck and jive the
folks about
Digby 1/19/09
Andrea Mitchell: ...It does go beyond rhetoric. He needs to engage
the American people in this joint venture. That's part of the call.
That's part of what he needs to accomplish in his speech and in the
days following the speech. He needs to make people feel that this is
their
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:
Edg, in my opinion the adherence to the Gotta
do the puja thang comes from many sources. One
is the overall Maharishisez EQUALS gotta
mindset that was drilled into us for so many
years or decades.
Another is the fact
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 8:49 PM, raunchydog raunchy...@yahoo.com wrote:
Digby 1/19/09
Andrea Mitchell: ...It does go beyond rhetoric. He needs to engage
the American people in this joint venture. That's part of the call.
That's part of what he needs to accomplish in his speech and in the
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 9:10 PM, wayback71 waybac...@yahoo.com wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:
There were also many stories of people seeing these robed, older men
walking around the
room while puja was going on during initiations-of some saying
- or that the siddhi program doesn't use Sanskrit?
I'm wondering where people got the idea that the various sutras should be used
only in a Sanskrit form? Although trained as a TM teacher, I took my sutra
training at a citizen siddha course. After receiving a couple of the sutras, a
few of
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, billy jim emptyb...@... wrote:
- or that the siddhi program doesn't use Sanskrit?
*
Siddhis instruction in India is in Sanskrit -- it's so close to Hindi
that understanding is not a problem, evidently.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, billy jim emptyb...@... wrote:
snip
it made perfect sense to me that they would not be
practiced in Sanskrit. The focus of the sutras was
their meaning - a meaning which was by definition
independent of their articulated sound value in any
language. The
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote:
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 9:10 PM, wayback71 waybac...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
There were also many stories of people seeing these robed, older men
walking
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, billy jim emptybill@ wrote:
snip
it made perfect sense to me that they would not be
practiced in Sanskrit. The focus of the sutras was
their meaning - a meaning which was by definition
Anyone have any opinions on fluoride in the drinking water, it's
benefits and health problems.Does Vedic City fluoridate it's water as
well as MUM?
While some candidates on the presidential campaign trail treat paint
promises in glittering generalities, President Obama was often quite
specific about what policies he'd implement as president, with
exhaustive lists of promised policy plans [1] on his much-ballyhooed
website.
As part of our
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, billy jim emptybill@ wrote:
snip
by discussing the sanyama practice as a advance
development through using meaning as a more subtle
value than the beginning practice of sound without
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