>
> By the way, what has happened to that movement? At one time, it was a
> strong force for social change. Now it seems to do little more than
> represent a particular group interest, and that interest appears to be
> concerned with little more than ensuring that it gets its "slice of the pie
The capitalist argument usually is the same
as with the defence of the arm-industry:
just imagine all those who have to be made
unemployed if we scrap the pet-food industry...
Less revenues from taxes... etc, etc.
The socialist argument is, that if the
economic system stayes the same both here
an
Just to cheer up Jay and all the artists:
Word Power - New Words for the Week
Bozone (n.) The substance surrounding stupid people that
stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer,
unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the
near future.
Dopelar effect (n.) The t
I wasn't aware that the present - or indeed
any economic system before, besides
the autocratically planned USSR style
ones, were "designed".
It is all a chaotic mess, and it should
be quite clear now that it cannot be controlled
or manipulated to provide all what human kind needs for
a sustai
>
> The reason I am so cynical about the future is my personal experience in
> politics. The plutocrats will not suddenly notice that the rest of the
> world is dying at their hands, feel empathy, and transfer political power to
> some more benevolent system. That's not how politics works.
>
So the burden is again nicely appropriated on
inept undemocratic
national governments/elites/dictators/warlords
living off the bribes/support of the west/multinationals
and on women,
instead of the underlying economic insanities that
continuously take resourses and options away from
people in th
None of your characters are right in this tale;
There is no such thing as absolute freedom (Jesus),
the best way to define it is by e
freely, individually made (continuous,
dynamic) collective decision.
No totalitarian elite - however intelligent -
will be able
to provide happiness for us. We ca
>
>Marx required angelic robots for his utopia: The basic
> principle is "from each according to their ability to each according to
> their work".
In a democratic system with limited resources
this is a natural way of distribution.
No angels required, only the old suspicious and evil
spe
Just to put you minds at rest... Eva
NET DEPRESSION STUDY CRITICIZED
Various researchers, including Vanderbilt University's Donna L. Hoffman, are
criticizing the recently released Carnegie Mellon University study that
suggested that the Net may be a lonely place, causing depression in many
peop
Your suggestion seems to assume that the "nurturing" of these future
supergood leaders could happen in an isolated vacuum.
Until we have a system where money/profit
means power, the state will exist to defend this power, regardless of
what the polititians are saying or even doing, they
are rather
Just some figures from a person I am arguing with
about present trends... Eva
>
> Fact: Every decade since WWII, the number of famine victims have been
> steadily and surely decreasing.
>
> A friend sent me a Swedish "State of the World" report for 1994 ("Laget i
> Varlden 1994"). It gives t
However, first time evr we have a global view of
our history and of our future, and we can and
must effect the outcome via a cooperative,
all-inclusive and conscious fashion.
Eva
>
> Because of this complexity induced "stuckness", I would foresee a long
> decline, much like that of Rome, even i
>
> Even among the former Communists, (good 19th century scientists) this
> has been turned to a puritanical rigidity
If you mean Marx et al, you're wrong. The most picked up
and ridiculed of their ideas by contemporaries were
those on free love, which they developed from the
french utopian
>
>
> I've read the review and have gone back to reread parts of the Manifesto
> itself. What incredible idealism the Manifesto contains! And what
> perversions in the name of that idealism have actually occurred!
>
>
>
ok, I slept on it and I cannot leave it... what is more Idealism
in t
I support the idea as a "transitional demand"
as it cannot be realised in the
capitalist framework.
Eva
>
> "Basic Income" is an idea whose time has come. It's one of the keys to
> solving our environmental crisis. I support "basic Income" 100%.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> Thomas: Again I would point out that for many of the statements you make to
> be true, you have to believe in the self interest view of humans. I choose
> to believe that underneath that view exists a human who is compassionate,
> inclined to sharing and supportive of others. However when
...
>
> This raised a question for me: Could this be a useful weak spot we could
> exploit more cleverly than so far? Rather than take on the whole issue of
> free trade and thus the entire global nomenklatura, by distinguishing
> between trade in commodities and manufactures and the frictionl
gt;
> Now that all being said, I re-state the original question:
> > how do you justify your opinion about all women everywhere as property with
> > the fact that in most Native American communities the women owned the property
> > and could put the husband out of the marri
hat it is the same for scientific
> expression as well. Are the arts and anthropology really that far ahead of the
> sciences? REH
>
> P.S. you never answered my post about the reverse cultures of the New World in our
> relationship to gender and ownership.
>
> Eva Durant
I think this must be the exception, in tribes
where the idea of surplus/private property
of the means of production such as land
and the separation of
of work did not occur. I don't remember any such
matriarchal structures mentioned in the inca
and other city-dwelling or nomadic ancient americans
>
> The objective is minimize human suffering. Thus, the highest priority is
> given to preserving our life-support system. Those scientists (probably
> mostly ecologists) who understand the system best would be selected by their
> peers. Probably no more than, say, 2000 altogether including
a bit of relaxation... I have no idea
if the names have significance for USians.Eva
> Well, I was teaching a wonderful black dramatic soprano today and her answer to
> this particular question was that there was something in the Caucasian gene
> that didn't allow for serious long term cooperation.The statement sounds
> racist but somehow you all seem to be coming up with the
>
> I saw one estimate that behavior was 1/.3 genetic, 1/3 family, and 1/3
> culture. The point is that if we are ever going to solve these problems, we
> are going to have to stop making excuses and start dealing with people as
> they really are: animals.
>
If it is only one-third genetic, th
>
> >Your fatalistic misery built on an entropy misconception
> >is not at all constructive; let's do ourselves in
> >because the Earth is doomed in x million years.
> >- see Ron Ebert's response in an other message.
>
> It's not "x million" Eva, the scientific concensus is about 24.
>
We we
Gee, thanks Jay, you won't mind if I take this
personally...
Eva
> This is by far the best mailing list I have been on.It's a brainstorming
> list. The free flow of intelligent ideas and interesting, reliable
> information really sets this list apart from the others. This is the
> intern
So, please sum up the argument, how does entropy effect
the earth if it is not a closed system;
If population growth levels out due to
universal restructured well-being;
if fusion and other alternative energy will use
non-fossil raw materials available to us (such as seawater)
until the sun dies.
>
> I did not say that the Russians produced no consumer goods. Indeed they
> produce fridges. The one in the dormitory I stayed in kept things
> luke-cold. They also produce cars, washbasins, brooms, toilets and many
> other things in daily use. However, ever so many of the things you see i
Except that this fatalistic "let's use the
laws of thermodynamics" - would perhaps
make some sense if the Earth was a closed
local system. It is not even that.
Eva
>
> It's because the "reality" of it is too much for people to cope with. The
> "reality" is that Russia is merely the next count
>
> >Very interesting, but what is the point?
>
> Ah ha! Eva, you gave me the straight line I was fishing for. Thank you.
>
> The POINT IS the point of inflection. The three quotations that I forwarded
> to the list yesterday all came up in the first ten hits of an Alta Vista
> search on the p
Very interesting, but what is the point?
There is no intrinsic growth for humans,
there is too much social/cultural impact.
The human capacity to interact with the environment
and to forsee/simulate the results of such an equation,
and manipulate all factors adds some uncomfortable
maths to thi
I hope this was just a figure of speech...
I can't see any circumstance for me
to think that.
Eva
>
>
> It's stuff like this that makes me think the Taliban may be on the right
> track.
>
> Ed Weick
>
>
> >> How big could global ICT outsourcing get? The below "Teratrend
> >> Theory," which I developed some years ago (but shelved for more concrete
> >> endeavors), claims the U.S. economy will eventually be importing $1
> trillion
> >> in information-based productivity. It also explain
WE and our individual behaviour are
the product of our social/economic
environment. Those of us who are conscious
of this fact should make all the effort to
change the social/economic structure to serve
human needs and not chaotic haphazard capitalist
market/profit orders.
Eva
>
> I find it
It amazes me how I am ignored ususally offhand
as a naive dreamer or worse but such notions as the world's
billionaires cooperating to solve the problems
created by capitalism are to be taken taken seriously!
Though I have to admit, that at least George
Soros has some idea about the problems.
Eva
I am sorry, but at times I get pricked by all the
self-congratulatory tone around here...
>
> If you didn't already know, sarcasm is pretty cheap. I've experienced yours
> before and I wish you'd learn some ordinary courtesy.
>
>
> >Gee, if you'd just listen to me, you could have saved
> >a
Gee, if you'd just listen to me, you could have saved
a lot of your valuable time...
Eva
...
> List, I came to the conclusion that no overall policy, certainly no
> government-led policy, could solve unemployment problems or determine the
> nature of future work.
>
>
>
> Keith
>
Your hypothesis would mean that the number
of unemployed in a given country is linked to
the number of immigrants. I am not aware of
such a relationship.
The number of unemployed is however linked with
the capacities of workplaces used; at present
the UK is working at 1973 capacities, and
the (
>
>
> Agriculture became a catastrophe because, according to Jared Diamond,
> all evidence (skelletons and bones from humans) shows that before
> agriculture was developed humans were never suffering from hunger and
> malnutrition. But some time afterwards it became usual that there were
> time
> I hate to say it, but you are speaking platitudes that don't stem from
> original thought, but from more ancient platitudes. That has to be so
> when the typical reference of "proof" is, "it is so because HE said it's
> so." The Social Scientist is apparently well read, but lacking even one
>
It seems to me, that not ideology but dogma
has been described, the two are not necessarily
the same.
I wasn't aware, that "corporationism" is an
ideology. I think it is a form of self-defence
for capitalism, incorporating some necessary
seeds such as integration and planning for future
analysis,
>
> We are not computers, we are animals. The genetic distance that separates
> us from pygmy or common chimps is only 1.6% (the two chimps are separated
> by 0.7%). In fact, we are the chimp's closest relative with the gorilla
> differing by 2.3%.
>
We are neither computers nor animals.
su
Some dreams may come true, if they are based on
reality. When humans are made aware of some
dire danger, they act. I rather try to do something
than sitting back, watching the suffering of
other people, including my offsprings and
uttering my dying whisper: I told you so...
We have the means to m
> Eva Durant wrote,
> >...
> >>
> >> If emancipation may be described as a project of organizing non-repressive,
> >> socially useful activity, the Dow Jones Industrial Average must then be
> >> properly seen as a token for eroticizing repressive su
who wouldn't agree with you?
The question is, what to do, when we know, that
the present economical structure is not
able to cope with global environmental and social
problems.
Giving money to failing economies means
giving western financial institutions back what they
"risked" in investment, wh
> >
> >So the "thinker" and the "herd" are different species... there is no
> >evidence of this and all theories that attempt to use such notions
> >were very limited in their efficiency besides being sinister.
> >Jay, I think you are into some sort of personality-cult stuff...
>
> Not differen
...
>
> If emancipation may be described as a project of organizing non-repressive,
> socially useful activity, the Dow Jones Industrial Average must then be
> properly seen as a token for eroticizing repressive sublimation.
>
it is SO evident that my inner plane of non-delusional
alpha-dimensi
A little help for our few mystiques on this list...
Eva
-- Start of included mail From: James Randi --- Wizard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:12:10 -0400 (EDT)
Mailing-List: contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]; run by ezmlm
Delivered-To: mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTE
>
>
> Durant wrote:
>
> > I had no response to my arguments;
> >
> > Science is only a tool and even art would be non-existent without
> >scientific problemsolving.
>
> What is the date on the invention of the modern scientific process? Method?
>
>
The old one was just the same as th
I keep forget to reset the address to futureworld,
would you please forward the message if it gets to you
private, thanks, Eva
>
> >1. People educated to be able to and be confident to have opinions
> >on all decisionmaking issues.
> >2. They have all the information easily available for all
> >decisionmaking
> >3. They can see the direct consequence of theexecution of their
> >decisions
> >4. they have insta
>
> It's really quite simple. I see things totally in a material context. For
> example, people need a certain amount of water each day to survive.
> Moreover, the depth of a water table can be measured objectively.
>
> If objective measures show that water tables are falling, then ultimatel
> > so far the effect of globalisation is making the rich richer and the
> > poor poorer in every country - perhaps with the exception of Norway.
> > Everywhere we are demanded by the monetarists and the free-marketeers
> > to tighten our belt if we are employees, and concessions, tax-breaks
> > a
The pie had a remarkable growth in this century,
and if all the waste of research and resources
for arm and car production for example
turned into socially useful activities,
such as environmental protection,
the scope is limitless.
If you see a limited pie, your only scope
is the annihilation of
I admit I did not follow this thread
closely, what I'd like to know, where the EXTRA
jobs are coming from for these targeted
people?
Eva
>
> I would like to share my concerns about an apparent contradiction in
> the UK Employment Zones approach.
>
> Reform of active labour market measures in
I hope you won't mind, I think
most of you are interested.
Eva
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:14:05 +
From: Sang-Hyun KIM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: EO Wilson SCIENCE AND SOCIETY
>From EnviroEthics mailing-list
---
However, without North-Sea oil, Denmark and
Sweden run into a lot of economic difficulties
in the last decades and the first "solution" was
to attempt to cut back social benefits.
The Suiss are a special case, but I
think they also rely on
the world money market ultimately.
I doubt if the capital
for those of you who think hi-tech
people are in a different position than
other workers.
Eva
from EduPage, 31 March:
HIGH-TECH CHEAP LABOR SHORTAGE
The computer industry has been lobbying Congress to allow more foreign
computer science specialists into the country to fill what they say is a
s
>
> > >Physics Story
> > >
> > >A thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for her
> > graduate
> > >students. It had one question:
> > >
> > >"Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with a
> proof."
> > >
> > >Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs usin
>
> Here is the short version of the laws of
> thermodynamics:
>
> #1. You can't win.
>
> #2. You can't break even.
>
> #3. You can't even get out of the game.
>
> Jay
>
I did some physics in my distant and fuzzy past, but
I cannot remember these...
Eva
I thought some of you would enjoy this...
Eva
> >
> > Geraldo, Eat Your Avant-Pop Heart Out
> >
> > By MARK LEYNER
> >
> >JENNY JONES: Boy, we have a show for you today! Recently, the University
> >of Virginia philo
>
> Alas, yes. I rather liked Mikes sentiments in a mail to me, though how we
> put them into practical effect I'm not sure. It just seems to abstract for
> most people nowadays to build a political movement on...
>
> +++
It's not that abstract, just self-organised and
self-started groups will
perhaps this will convince you...
Eva
>
> [...]
>
> That's my very favourite. The runner-up was by Robert T. Morris III,
> author of the Internet Worm:
>
>
> Date: 11-31-88 (24:60) Number: 32769
> To: ALL Refer#: NONE
> From: ROBERT MORRIS III Read: (N/A)
> Subj: VIRUS ALERT Status:
>
> Your program is what, socialism?
>
and why not? Convincing capitalist to be capitalist in
a non-capitalist way is more difficult than socialism.
Eva
>
>
> At 12:23 PM 12/9/97 +, you wrote:
> >What you suggest is an interesting excercise
> >in democracy.
> >However
so how does the "national income" relate to GDP?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> puzzled over them earlier.
>
> Bill asks about the components of GDP and perhaps this will help.
> In 1995, for example:
>
> . GDP in the U.S. totaled $7,245.8 billion
> . Go
- About human desires being limitless - I can't see anything
wrong with that. It is a rational assumption - through science
we are getting better and better approximations to the
physical/chemical/cosmic etc laws of the universe, and we
are producing the technology that makes life easier
forwarded as I keep forget, that futurework is
not set for reply.
>
> (Pete Vincent:)
> >
> > I think the real problem is in the mechanics of it. The idea behind all
> > economic systems is to provide for the public good;
>
(me:)
>
> Sorry, you are wrong. The "mechanics" of economics hav
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