of it, in a very narrow specification, gives the patina of dealing
with something, without the substance.
So it establishes a false sense of resolving a security issue.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
___
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not allow
assuming.
As offered, the modification would have the effect that I stated and /not/
the
one you state.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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.
This probably requires a substantive change to the specification. I'm not
clear
whether it would force the spec to re-cycle at Proposed.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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.
What is the actual value of this marking, given that Alice is really a
spammer?
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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. There is no commonly-agreed upon and documented concept of normal set of
options that I'm aware of. What is normal for you might or might not be
normal
for the next person configuring DKIM.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
the advice, merely that we need to
distinguish between soft advice and serious, technical specification.
d/
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Dave Crocker
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,
The pattern is completely consistent, so I will take this as agreement to
remove
both.
Anyone objecting very strongly needs to speak up.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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http
. But an
inaccurate formal record warranted correcting.
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into play during the specification phase.
For example, it might be why a distinguishing label gets added.
In this case, we've gone to some lengths to make the environment pure, by using
the underscore branch. And then along come these pesky wildcards.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg
and, for example, not about the DNS for mail.
The fact that we hadn't even thought to include such basic citations in the
original work on the draft provides good insight about the reader we are adding
these for...
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
of its problems. DKIM records go into a protected subbrance,
given the underscore name.
RFC 4871 discusses about DNS in various sections. Unfortunately,
there is no reference to the DNS specifications.
we've just fixed that during the current edits.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg
recruits receivers to enforce what really are
matters of internal controls within the sender. It's one thing to recruit
receivers to help deal with attacks by outsiders, but quite another to burden
receivers with tasks that are within the signer's control.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg
about compatibility with, and
transition from, DomainKeys was essential. Now it isn't.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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organization, an operational relay or one of their agents.
...
Note that the sentence is slightly modified, which is the reason I'm running
this past the wg. It defers reference to signing domain until later.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
myself increasingly fond of the idea of putting such wisdom into the
Deployment document...
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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be an author's organization, an
operational relay or one of their agents.
d/
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Dave Crocker
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holds for more general message conformance
checking.
The checking does not make DKIM work, and it does not make it work better or
worse.
So it isn't needed.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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to make it nearly
impossible to apply valid use of a DKIM identifier to different content.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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). It's valid and even
essential, to a different, larger discussion.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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are not in the MUA business because we lack the expertise,
as a group.
d/
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Dave Crocker
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for would be good to have. It should be done. Just not
in
the signing spec.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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that a message is
compliant with those specifications prior to processing. /t
d/
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Dave Crocker
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accepts submissions only from subscribers, as
checked
in the From: field. This test message failed that stricture.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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right and the current text
confusing.
sigh.
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Dave Crocker
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, it's probably more efficient for further comments
to be on -02. (Efficient, but not necessary, of course,)
d/
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Dave Crocker
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of the scope of what DKIM is trying to achieve?
d/
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Dave Crocker
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On 10/7/2010 1:00 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:
so maybe it's best to fall back to something more generic and say a module
can reject instead of naming one or the other specifically.
+1
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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described here, might get resolved.
Darn. That would probably require normative status for such a document.
Hmmm. I wonder where the closes approximation might be...
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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to change its behavior to do
so). The next paragraph describes a pro of removing them, etc.
I'm not a huge fan of having pro con in a title.
Perhaps simply: Signature Removal Issues.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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to DKIM.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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the simplicity and sufficiency of Steve's point pretty darn appealing.
To emphasize: It's sufficient because it focuses on DKIM's actual goal and
does
not expand that scope.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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something that OpenPGP and S/Mime do;
it's not something DKIM does. DKIM merely tries to do enough to ensure that
the
d= is valid, to provide a basis for reputation assessment.
Hence, I recommend that this ISSUE be declined and closed.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
provisions. Plainly bad specification methodology.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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On 10/2/2010 5:58 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
On 01/10/10 18:28, Dave CROCKER wrote:
I think the text should therefore be revised from:
1.1. Signing Identity
...
INFORMATIVE RATIONALE: The signing identity specified by a DKIM
signature is not required to match an address
effective?)
The nature of statistical analysis inherently constraints their actual meaning.
Let's be careful not to go outside those constraints.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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. We had 20.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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-pressed to call DKIM's 'value'
lower
than for a first-party signer.
Most of the 1st party signers I have spoken with are more focused on
abuse issues.
Well, it's certainly true that first party signers have an easier opportunity
to
conflate goals.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg
the protocol work. Does this really rise to that level?
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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, rather than explanation of its
motivation or the like.)
d/
ps. just so no one is confused: this does not change the protocol at all; it
merely clarifies a point that is often misunderstood.
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
of the IETF implementation report for Draft Standard, I suspect it is
distracting or possibly worse, since it implies that that bit of data is
relevant to the protocol and its deployment.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
excellent training as an
attorney. (or is this just an artifact of the high quality of Canadian
education?)
In other words, good point. I withdraw my suggestion.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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are designed to be used. Ain't
gonna work.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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up. We need to find a way to get some solid data
published about the costs and tradeoffs.
I wonder whether this is a task best pursued in MAAWG?
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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, they will, at
best,
start discarding much more selectively. Selectively means using information
beyond ADSP.
Given sufficient selectivity, the mechanism that defines selective will
contain enough information to make ADSP redundant.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
, I think the latter is more
feasible than the former.
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in the MUA text. /d)
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Dave Crocker
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: move the set of subsections that
introduce higher-level constructs, to come before the sub-sections that define
syntactic elements?
Sounds like an improvement to me.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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On 9/23/2010 4:07 PM, John Levine wrote:
Seems unanimous. Dave, do you have enough changes to do another
version?
I was planning on waiting a couple of (work) days.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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between lists that restrict posting
rights and those that don't.)
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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to addresses known to the list
software, such as list subscribers. Mail from other addresses is typically
either rejected or sent for manual handling by the list manager.
Again, you are offering a reasonable hypothesis in the form of an
unsubstantiated conclusion.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg
relevant (and in fact essential) only to ADSP.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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verifying the author or the sender. Formally,
it
does neither.
I strongly suggest that when someone is talking about ADSP, they need to say
ADSP.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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usage in other circumstances.
We could, I suppose, write an ADSP erratum that redefines its usage. I've no
idea whether that would be worth the effort.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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to the original document, except perhaps as a historical reference.
So, IMO, anything the original document defines -- including registries --
should be (re-)defined in the bis verison.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
for privacy, not authentication.
Here's where you get to supply the point that a) defines 2nd party sig for
s/mime, and b) makes clear that I'm wrong...
As of now, I've no idea what your statement about S/MIME means.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
, and indeed...
http://www.iana.org/protocols/
SMTP Service Extensions RFC 5321
The current registry definition entry has the latest defining draft, not the
original.
We of course should do the same.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
-review/current/msg00286.html
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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to expectations
at the human level. It's not simply a mechanical issue.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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would be
appreciated. I’ll approach the APPS ADs about a venue.
+1
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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we could start that process before
then?
'minor' and 'charter change' in the same sentence constitute an oxymoron. it's
a formal ietf process.
perhaps more importantly, i'll suggest it's a distraction from our current work.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
signing specification. That's ok to do, but requires a
normative spec to define the behavior and meaning.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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On 8/24/2010 11:59 AM, MH Michael Hammer (5304) wrote:
Then it would appear that we are substantially in violent agreement.
in spite of our best efforts.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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.
As for MUA considerations, anyone making claims about what is needed for
utility
in an MUA needs to cite their sources, providing empirical justification, not
merely mathematical logic for why utility ought to be improved.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
but the raw text version. Not nearly as pretty to the recipient.)
I don't see this as profound insight, but merely another example of designing
with modest expectations for a variable Internet.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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. Folks making predictions usually have far too little information or
insight for making serious predictions.
Your prediction falls into that category, especially since it is based on such
a
problematic assessment of what DKIM does and how it is intended to be used.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
specification.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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to claim a certain outcome for that debate. Merely
noting that it has credible people on both sides and no track record.
Steve Atkins' summary and the Intro to 4871bis have the focus accurate, IMO.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
name that was used in the DNS query.
For additional information, please contact the list administrators.
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Dave Crocker
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the DKIM signature.
Submitter: Dave Crocker (dcroc...@bbiw.net)
Author(s):
Dave Crocker, dcroc...@bbiw.net
Tony Hansen, tony+dki...@maillennium.att.com
Murray Kucherawy, m...@cloudmark.com
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
On 8/16/2010 8:50 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote:
Various formats of the draft, along with a diff from the RFC, are located at
the
DKIM site:
http://dkim.org/ietf-dkim.htm#rfc7871bis
sigh.
Sorry. The url is:
http://dkim.org/ietf-dkim.htm#rfc4871bis
d/
--
Dave Crocker
attempting to
define.
That's clear. It's also beyond the skillset of this group. It's also not
required for DKIM to be useful.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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http
no idea what is
effective.
* MLMs break signatures and MUA will still need to present verified identity
As noted, you are seeking to have DKIM perform functions it was not designed to
perform. There should be no surprise that it falls shy of your desired mark.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
after. Still,
during
SMTP is better than later.)
This tidbit probably needs to be touted more. Not sure how.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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in this space.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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searching for
a way to divide into smaller bits that are easier to digest.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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. But that makes it not
Informational,
but probably a BCP.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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message.
Leave the sentence alone.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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goal for DKIM.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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.)
d/
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Dave Crocker
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as similar to MLM handling
that affixes an RFC5322.Subject tag or similar information. Thus it does not
introduce any new concerns.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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, the standards to no
institutionalize anything that forces it.
d/
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Dave Crocker
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. I think I understand why one might, but
the semantics really are different.
Reaction versus prevention...
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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a mailing list.
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consider
solving it.
d/
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Dave Crocker
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postings one at a time?
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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the original DKIM signature.
Is there consensus that in the context of an MLM the original DKIM signature
can
be dropped and we should not care about it?
/rolf
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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, that would be precise and
possibly accurate.
As Steve notes, this has nothing to do with DKIM and therefore must not be
labeled DKIM-friendly.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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Does anyone know of an open-source module that is used to develop a reputation
table by watching traffic and correlating spamminess with the original IP
Address?
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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On 7/9/2010 9:56 AM, Barry Leiba wrote:
I'd also like a
sort of show of hands to let me know who's going to be attending in
person, and who will participate remotely, using the audio stream or
jabber.
i.p.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
of message content.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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On 6/2/2010 9:13 PM, John Levine wrote:
At this point my published drop list contains paypal domains, who
publish ADSP, and ebay and amazon who don't publish ADSP, but who send
transaction mail all of which is as far as I can tell signed.
What is the pointer to that list?
d/
--
Dave
interface works makes pretty clear that they won't...)
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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the reputations more usable.
That's not a reputation system. It's possibly useful information, but it's
not reputation as the term is typically used in the industry.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
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that
says anything at all about whether the discarder says anything at all.
Taken on its own and without further technical specifications 'discard' does
not
direct, imply or request that the action be silent or noisy, and if noisy who
gets to hear it.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg
,
in general and security-related protocols in particular, I suppose it is simple
and reasonable to anticipate failure.)
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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in a standards arena.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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audience.
d/
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Dave Crocker
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