Michael Perelman wrote:
Is this discussion or the elitism thread going anywhere?
Not really, but does any thread ever go anywhere?
Doug
. In much of the discussion here, we get conclusions without the
supporting facts. This has been true of the Vandana Shiva thread as well as
the liberalism/expertise thread. Unfortunately, in the latter case the
rules of participation would almost exclude facts, etc. because the context
Doug Henwood wrote:
Michael Perelman wrote:
Is this discussion or the elitism thread going anywhere?
Not really, but does any thread ever go anywhere?
It's the journey, dudes, not the destination.
Right now, I think liberalism'd be a lovely idea. I'm sure we'd've got
there years
:
In much of the discussion here, we get conclusions without the
supporting facts. This has been true of the Vandana Shiva thread as well as
the liberalism/expertise thread. Unfortunately, in the latter case the
rules of participation would almost exclude facts, etc. because the context
up. Why do you?
Is it something about me that sets you off?
jks
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:28998] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: : liberalism
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:14:48 -0700
Lou expressed my thought better than I did. I
Rob Schaap wrote:
Doug Henwood wrote:
Michael Perelman wrote:
Is this discussion or the elitism thread going anywhere?
Not really, but does any thread ever go anywhere?
It's the journey, dudes, not the destination.
How about, Is this discussion becoming or going?
Tom Walker
Michael writes:
I would only add that in
these debates nobody seems to learn anything from anybody else -- at
least, you can pretty well predict what the few participants in such
debates will write.
To be sure, most postings in most PEN-L debates appear as predictable
rehearsals of existing
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28995] Re: Re: Re: : liberalism
the best any thread on pen-l (and lbo-talk?) seems to be able to do is to clarify differences.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
-Original Message-
From: Doug Henwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28996] Re: Re: Re: Re: : liberalism
Louis writes:
I know this is an onerous burden to place on pen-l'ers, but
you should search for ways to impart some kind of concrete information
whenever you post.
That's good, but I like a weaker standard, since not all
as
the liberalism/expertise thread. Unfortunately, in the latter case the
rules of participation would almost exclude facts, etc. because the context
is preeminently philosophical. When the discussion revolves around the
individual versus society, etc., you are entering the vaporous realm
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28981] The last of liberalism
This is my last post on this thread -- and my last of the day. Work calls. (I have also cut the message down to one part, the one in which Justin makes a false accusation. I am sorry that it's so abstract.)
I wrote:
I don't identify democracy
the best any thread on pen-l (and lbo-talk?) seems to be able to do is to clarify
differences.
Jim Devine
'perceptual fault lines' run through apparently stable communities that appear to have
agreed on basic institutions and structures and on general governing rules.
Justin Schwartz wrote:
As I said before, almost everyone here--you too--favors
univ. suffrage --- Yes
extensive civil rights and liberties Yes
representative govt - NO
This form of democracy has never produced democracy -- and it never
will.
It's replacement
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28943] Re: Re: liberalism
Justin Schwartz wrote:
As I said before, almost everyone here--you too--favors
univ. suffrage --- Yes [Carrol's response]
extensive civil rights and liberties Yes [ditto]
representative govt - NO [ditto]
Carrol
As I said, almost everyone. jks
Almost everyone is right; as far as I can tell, yer man Posner is not in
favour of representative government or of extensive civil rights and
liberties in as much as these can't be derived from property rights.
What's your argument against his utopia of a small
a desirable set of rights would
be is less expansive than ours, but P is well within the range of
responsible non-authoritarian conservatism that counts as supporters of a
variant of liberalism. He has a new book on democracy in manuscript that he
gave me. Some of hsi views are set forth in his
representative govt - NO [ditto]
Carrol continues:
This form of democracy has never produced democracy -- and it never
will.
It's replacement will have to be worked out in practice -- not from a
blueprint I or anyone else can provide at this time.
Representative
Justin Schwartz wrote:
I have already responded noless dogmatically.
No Sir, I am not dogmatic, I am deliberate.
Samuel Johnson
:-)
Carrol
It is interesting to look at the Jugoslav experience with
representative vs direct democracy to show some light on this
question. Direct democracy was just not feasible at the commune,
republic or national level so the delegate system was used with
elections conducted using constitutencies
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28928] liberalism
Justin:These (Manchester and New Deal liberalisms) are economic liberalisms. I'm a political liberal, like Mill and Rawls.
me:please explain.
Justin:OK. Manchester liberalism is what we now call libertarianism, favoring a nightwatchman state
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28960] Re: liberalism
I don't know of anyone in favor of _direct_ democracy. I thought people were arguing for delegatory democracy, in which delegates can be recalled easily, fewer government officials are immune to democratic control, and there are clear limits
Devine, James wrote:
Self-government? this means profound democracy to me
I like the term profound democracy better than direct democracy,
which (both in its positive and its negative aspects) is tied to
specific social structures of the past. For that reason also it
contributes to an
We need to continue to criticize _what is_, and be aware that only as
that criticism turns into practice under given (and now unknown)
conditions will we have more than an inkling of what might be the
positive results of that criticism.
Let us criticize by all means, and experiment, and learn.
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Let us criticize by all means, and experiment, and learn. In an
off-list discussion Jim D accused me of being vague and
ambiguous about liberal democracy, which I am not, but my
conception is very minimal, and compatible with many
implementations. Including a workers'
It's important to remember that the New Deal also had lots of support for
businesses, too.
Like I said, it saved c pitalism.
Further, the progressive -- or better, the democratic -- aspects of New
Deal liberalism did NOT arise from liberalism as much as from mass
struggles (the Veterans
Of what use is a
concept that includes the soviets of the revolutionary period and the U.S.
Senate today under the same classification?
Doug
Well, they have this in common: they are both government institutions
staffed by representatives who are elected by the people they are supposed
to
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28970] Re: RE: liberalism
I wrote: It's important to remember that the New Deal also had lots of support for businesses, too.
Justin: Like I said, it saved c pitalism.
there's a difference: individual businesses often care about nothing but their own profit. It's only
Is this discussion or the elitism thread going anywhere?
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 05:25:03PM -0400, Doug Henwood wrote:
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Let us criticize by all means, and experiment, and learn. In an
off-list discussion Jim D accused me of being vague and
ambiguous about liberal
), and Marxian/Hegelian real freedom (obedience to the law one
gives to oneself, disalienation). The matter is complex,and I refer you
tomy
papers on exploitation...
but if freedom includes the Marxian real freedom, that goes against
liberalism.
Sez who? Not Mill, and if he's not a liberal, no one
Justin:These (Manchester and New Deal liberalisms) are economic
liberalisms. I'm a political liberal, like Mill
and
Rawls.
please explain.
OK. Manchester liberalism is what we now call libertarianism, favoring a
nightwatchman state and unfettered free markets with private property. New
,
Joanna
Part of it is epater les socialistes, but in fact the bourgeoisie invented
liberalism, and its only historical form has been liberal democratic
capitalism, unless you count the few months of the Paris Commune (which
wasn't socialist econonomically speaking), or maybe Sandinista
Justin Schwartz wrote:
As I said before, almost everyone here--you too--favors
univ. suffrage --- Yes
extensive civil rights and liberties Yes
representative govt - NO
This form of democracy has never produced democracy -- and it never
will.
It's replacement
http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~shgape/sklar2.html
Sohrab Behdad (Economics, Denison University), From Populism to
Economic Liberalism: The Iranian Predicament,
http://www.denison.edu/~behdad/Populism.pdf.
Sohrab Behdad, Khatami and His 'Reformist' Economic (Non-)Agenda,
21 May 2001, http://www.merip.org/pins/pin57.html.
--
Yoshie
[another pen-l perennial that people are bored with?]
Cash and carry misery in Ghana
Britain is backing reforms which are deepening Africa's poverty
John Kampfner
Friday February 8, 2002
The Guardian
Tony Blair is not planning to meet Mary Agyekum while in Ghana. Perhaps he
should. Mary
Martin Brown wrote
When I was in London recently I saw a play called Feel Good, a
ruthless
satire of Blair's Labor Party. Have you seen it?. Any thoughts.
=
MK: Unfortunately no. I'd appreciate your review of it.
=
If a similar play about the Clinton Administration had appeared on
Penners
A few weeks ago Tony Blair presidentially appointed the chairman of the
Labour Party without acknowledging that the post already existed, and
has done for decades. The chair of the party an elected post. But such
is Mr Tony's adherence to the norms of democracy that he saw fit to
or a member of Hillary's right wing conspiracy.
-Original Message-
From: Michael Keaney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 9:16 AM
To: PEN-L (E-mail)
Subject: [PEN-L:15927] New Labour and the triumph of Cold War liberalism
Penners
A few weeks ago Tony Blair
.
(International Herald Tribune IHT)
BB: 'Putin is really destroying what we created in the last ten years.'
The new party will be dedicated to 'liberalism'.
Chris Burford
London
unproductive.
For example perhaps the privatisation of 200 companies in 1996 to
associates of the SPS was not a progressive compromise with market forces.
Resisting neo-liberalism is enormously difficult. But lessons could be
learned.
Chris Burford
London
The Nation Magazine, May 8, 2000
FREE-MARKET LIBERALISM IS NOW PROCLAIMED A UNIVERSAL MODEL FOR SUCCESS, BUT
THIS BELIEF IS BASED ON A PARTIAL AND LIMITED WORLDVIEW.
The American Ascendancy: Imposing a New World Order
by BRUCE CUMINGS
The turn of the millennium provided yet another occasion
cing areas.
The economic restructuring ,sometimes called neo-liberalism,
consists of trade liberalization( i.e. the reduction or elimination of
import and foreign investment controls), privatization of state
enterprises, deregulation( elimination of price controls and subsidies.)
The purpose of the
-Original Message-
From: Craven, Jim
Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 1:15 PM
To: Craven, Jim
Subject: Liberalism: Classical or Neo, Same Shit
From "Year 501: The Conquest Continues" by Noam Chomsky, South End Press,
Boston, 1993
"Adam Smith may
NY Times Book Review, March 7, 1999
Without a Cause
An attorney bemoans the decline of liberal political passions in America.
By ROBERT B. REICH
Today's young adults are the first generation born this century to have
missed the passion of American liberalism. Previous generations witnessed
f free software. The necessary
specifications and background information have been made available,
so that people can adapt or improve the software as they see fit,
and redistribute it, with or without payment, and without any
control over this redistribution by third parties. True to
on race per se rather than worker identity
becomes de facto another brand of "identity politics."
Barkley Rosser
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:10:04 + maxsaw
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Whatever liberalism came out of FDR's time has
now split between a quasi-social democratic view
which is
Whatever liberalism came out of FDR's time has
now split between a quasi-social democratic view
which is oriented to labor and living standard
issues on one side, and a more middle-class
focus on 'the poor,' ecology, reproductive
rights, civil liberties, and at its worst,
'identity politics
This message is going to several lists simultaneously.
Some time ago on several lists there was a discussion
regarding how it came to be that in the US "liberal" came
to mean someone who favored government intervention in the
economy, in contrast to "classical libe
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for more info.
--75BA3FF15BB1
At the signing ceremony for Ukraine s admission into the aggressive
Rieter and Smolz. 1993. "The Idea of German Ordoliberalism "
European Journal of the History of Economic Thought, 1: 1.
Other sources on the subject take note that part of the German context
was a much more paternalistic corporate system. In this sense, we can
compare them with the U.S.
and a bulwark against the power of the state. [footnote: anonymous
interview, 22 March 1990; cf. 'Une esthetique de l'existence, Le Monde
Aujourd'hui 15-16 July 1994, p. xi, English translation in MF, Politics,
Philosophy, Culture, p. 50].
In his public lectures, Foucault at the same time turne
I would suggest that a national element in Foucault's
late turn to Austrian style liberalism is the nature of the
French state and society. It has long been dirigiste and
etatiste in comparison to most other societies and still
is, with one of the strongest ongoing systems of indicative
In "The Birth of Biopolitics," one of the course descriptions collected in
Ethics: Subjectivity and Truth [The Essential Works of Foucault 1954-1984,
vol. 1] just out from the New Press, Foucault wrote:
"...German liberalism of the second postwar period was defined, progr
as limited by the limited ability of government to match the
knowledge of individuals, still this problem is and could be addressed
by social movements which also produce knowledge. HW gives some
examples from Euro left social movements. Shades of cybernetics and
anarcho-syndicalism...
1) German
I don't know anything about the Austrian School bit. Sympathy for
English liberalism would indeed be surprising, since it goes against the
grain of everything Foucault had written. As you know, he spends a lot
of time both in Discipline and Punish and in the History of Sexuality V1
examples from Euro left social movements. Shades of cybernetics and
anarcho-syndicalism...
1) German liberalism
by Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:48:44 -0500
From: Doug Henwood
arket economy." It's
sozialmarktwirtschaft.
Barkley Rosser
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Tavis Barr
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't know anything about the Austrian School bit. Sympathy for
English liberalism would indeed be surprising, since it goes against the
grain of
f Foucault 1954-1984,
vol. 1] just out from the New Press, Foucault wrote:
"...German liberalism of the second postwar period was defined, programmed,
and even to a certain extent put into practice by men who, starting in the
years 1928-1950, had belonged to the Freiburg school...and
Came through a while back...
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:22:04 -0800
From: D Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Forum on Labor in the Global Economy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Multiple recipients of list LABOR-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Primer on Neo-Liberalism
On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Chris Johnston wrote:
Came through a while back...
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:22:04 -0800
From: D Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip
29 August 1996
WHAT IS "NEO-LIBERALISM"?
A brief definition for activists
by Elizabet
People have adopted the term neoliberal because they're unwilling to or
afraid of talking about capitalism. I first became aware of this when I was
interviewing Mark Ritchie on my radio show. He said, "...neoliberalism - we
used to call it capitalism" (The fact that he said this is one of
I always thought that the word "neo-liberalism" was a (perhaps unconscious)
effort to deal with the conflicting meanings of the word "liberalism":
"liberalism" means "classical liberalism" (laissez-faire) in Europe and
most other places, while in the U.
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:9522] Re: neo-liberalism question
People have adopted the term neoliberal because they're unwilling to or
afraid of talking about capitalism. . . .
Gee, I thought I was just being hip
One thing to keep in mind is that the differences between conservatism and
liberalism at different times and places in history had a deep class basis.
In Central America, liberalism in the 1890s meant free trade, an end to
clerical ownership of land, and other reforms that were associated
From South Africa, same answer as Colin's in reference to etymology.
On David's query...
How is this paen to market
solutions different from what we have been referring to as the
'conservative' laissez-faire perspective?
To crudely personify, I think the key difference, at least in the context
What is the origin of the word, "neo-liberalism"? Does it refer to a
ressurection of classical liberalism (a la Adam Smith) or a revision of
modern liberalism (a la Keynes)?
The former; I've always assumed the word came from the Latin American
debates, in which it's widely us
I've had the same question as Michael. Although I've seen "neoliberal"
used in the context of World Bank/IMF policies and Latin American discussions,
"neoliberal" has also been used in the U.S. context, e.g., in an article
on privatization in the latest Dollars and Sense. How is this paen to
What is the origin of the word, "neo-liberalism"? Does it refer to a
ressurection of classical liberalism (a la Adam Smith) or a revision of
modern liberalism (a la Keynes)?
I have heard that the head of the World Bank said that his goal was to
change from a world of poor people wi
29 August 1996
WHAT IS "NEO-LIBERALISM"?
A brief definition for activists
by Elizabeth Martinez and Arnoldo Garcia
"Neo-liberalism" is a set of economic policies that
have become widespread
during the last 25 years or so. Although the word is
rarely heard in the Un
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So, Greg, are you saying that John Locke, who many see as the
founder of classical liberalism and was clearly an important
intellectual predecessor of Adam Smith, didn't posit in the
"state of nature" the existence of a generally-accepted
morality, in
as the
founder of classical liberalism and was clearly an important
intellectual predecessor of Adam Smith, didn't posit in the
"state of nature" the existence of a generally-accepted
morality, in which "all men may be restrained from invading
others' rights" (SECOND TREATISE
8
La Jornada, January 30, 1996
THE EZLN CALLS FOR INTERCONTINENTAL
GATHERING AGAINST NEO-LIBERALISM
First Declaration of La Realidad
Against Neoliberalism and For Humanity
"I have arrived, I am here present, I the singer.
Enjoy in good time, come here to present
yours
Please pass this on, comrades. I told the Haitians that PEN-L and the
CPE are the best places to spread the word on these job openings and
popular education training consultancies. Thanks!
***Job openings for progressive economists/financial analysts***
1) Economic Advocacy Director with
I am a teaching fellow this year, and for our meeting next week we are
reading an article by Clark Kerr, "Knowledge Ethics and the New Academic
Culture" (_Change_ Jan/Feb, 1994: 9-15). I remember Clark as Chancellor
at UC Berkeley and one of the guys we demonized in the sixties.
Well Clark's
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