subject:"\[OSM\-talk\] MAPS.ME edits \- partly sub\-standard"

while at it, whitespace at the beginning and end of the tag values should
be removed before upload...

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39910220

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-22 17:07 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> yet another issue


and another type of issue:
a place has 2 names: "I Briganti" (in name) and "Frattelli Briganti" (in
alt_name)
maps.me editor has changed the name to the same as alt_name

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/938211195/history (version 4)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-22 Thread Paul Johnson

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 8:52 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 21/06/2016 10:12, joost schouppe wrote:
>
> Some ideas:
>
> - maps.me should probably stick to simple-to-map objects when it adds
> data. Complicated stuff should go in a note.
>
>
> - if the maps.me data is old, any added object should be a note by default
>
>
> We get "notes by default" from other apps that use old data (e.g. Navmii)
> and in that case it's just as annoying to deal with - actually more so in
> that case as the notes are anonymous.
>

This is my frustration with Mapdust (and why I ultimately just Gave Up on
that system) and with notes from Craigslist.  I do see (by cursory glance)
that maps.me expects a user to have a OSM account.  This is good.  I'm not
sure if signing in with some other sign in method causes you to use one of
maps.me's accounts for nodes created, but if so, perhaps this user should
also be the one posting notes, so if responses to to the note happens, the
originating user is notified and can respond.

> - maybe we should have a manual review system in place for ALL maps.me
> changesets, until someone marks the account as "experienced"
>
>
> That's pretty much what's happening already (just not with MAPS.ME users
> only).  In many places around the world new mappers are either explicitly
> welcomed or helped along through their first few edits.  There's even been
> a recent help question about using whodidit for the purpose:
>
>
> https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/50331/how-to-search-for-go-map-editor-in-whodidit
>

Don't feel bad about being part of the welcome wagon.  Oklahoma's slowly
getting some traction beyond just me actively editing.  Which is great
compared to when I came back from stranded in Oregon and there was a bit of
a "dead mall" feel to the way it was basically untouched in Tulsa (and
especially the rest of the state) while I was away.  I think notes helped,
since usually my first indication of someone else working someplace I've
been is I get a notification that someone's worked one of my notes.
Floating observations faster than you can realistically map them isn't
necessarily a bad thing...as of right now hdyc has me at 6867 Opened, 335
Commented, 5573 Closed, using notes to help mark rapidly changing areas
that need a ground survey or my own ground observations.  And yes, headway
is being made on that biblical open:closed ratio now that I'm not on the
road all day, every day, in a mostly TIGER area (being not on the road
enough to actually want to think about roads helps).
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

yet another issue: it seems maps.me is setting the tag:
"cuisine=italian_pizza;italian"?
Is this a standard tag? First time I see it:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2136164336/history  (version3)

At the moment there are only 23 instances:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/cuisine#values

I suggest they support
oven=wood_fired/electric

there are just 200 occurences, but that's still a lot more and gives more
detail than "italian_pizza;italian"

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-22 15:52 GMT+02:00 Andy Townsend :

> The scope for growth of our community with Maps.me is phenomenal. Of
> course there is room for improvement. But it's never going to be easy to
> lower the barriers to participation without losing quality.
>
>
> I don't think that it's an explicitly MAPS.ME problem - it's a "new
> mappers" one.  There have been "ban iD", "ban Potlatch" etc. complaints
> since those editors have existed, and new mappers using JOSM are just as
> likely to make a mess of things as with other editors, but the resulting
> fallout tends to be rather more nuclear.
>


there are some fundamental differences between our common editors and
maps.me:
1. maps.me doesn't show the full geometry of things / everything available
in osm
2. maps.me doesn't show tags and has few feature classes and has sometimes
problematic translations (maybe the last point applies to other editors in
non-pro-mode as well)
3. maps.me doesn't show recent data but old data
4. maps.me doesn't show all information at an object, even common stuff
like internationalized names aren't available to the editor (they promised
to work on this)



> - if the maps.me data is old, any added object should be a note by default
>
>
> We get "notes by default" from other apps that use old data (e.g. Navmii)
> and in that case it's just as annoying to deal with - actually more so in
> that case as the notes are anonymous.
>


it's not a point that other apps do things worse by using anonymous users
for their contributions. If we got as much feedback from Navmii than we do
currently from maps.me we would surely blame them as well.



>
> - maps.me should investigate why response is so low to changeset
> comments. Maybe OSM messages can be integrated in the app? Maybe added info
> should be Note by default until they have responded to a test message sent
> through the OSM messaging system. (though in my experience response to any
> OSM message is low, not just maps.me users)
>
>
> I'm not convinced that the reply rate from MAPS.ME users is much lower
> than other new mappers.  As you say, new mappers often don't reply -
> probably because they think of OSM as a map or a database rather than a
> community, and databases don't in general talk back to you.



well, IF the database talks back, and this is what is happening, they would
make up their mind then, no?



> The same options are available with unresponsive MAPS.ME users as with
> other users - try and contact them via changeset discussions, and if that
> doesn't work drop a mail to the Data Working Group explaining the problem.



I have refrained from doing so until now, because DWG ressources are
limited as well, and I didn't want to throw too much on them.



>
> - maybe we should have a manual review system in place for ALL maps.me
> changesets, until someone marks the account as "experienced"
>
>
> That's pretty much what's happening already (just not with MAPS.ME users
> only).  In many places around the world new mappers are either explicitly
> welcomed or helped along through their first few edits.  There's even been
> a recent help question about using whodidit for the purpose:
>


can't speak for others, but I am currently just reviewing the FIRST edits
by NEW users, and I don't have near the ressources I'd need to stick to
this and follow them. It doesn't matter whether the edits are one week or
one hour old, in most cases I have reviewed noone has either commented on
the changesets or changed the objects so far, so I guess this is not
something that will sort itself out "automatically".

Have a look at whodidit for the center of Rome:
Zverik's instance is currently not working (no tiles):
http://zverik.osm.rambler.ru/whodidit/?zoom=14=41.89546=12.49434=B
try this one:
http://simon04.dev.openstreetmap.org/whodidit/?zoom=13=41.88897=12.4797=BTT

Some users I have found with Pascal Neis' new users tool have headed to
Florence and Paris afterwards, I bet you can find a similar situation
there, and also in Venice, London, Munich and other places that are heavily
frequented by tourists.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-22 Thread Andy Townsend

On 21/06/2016 10:12, joost schouppe wrote:
The scope for growth of our community with Maps.me is phenomenal. Of
course there is room for improvement. But it's never going to be easy
to lower the barriers to participation without losing quality.

I don't think that it's an explicitly MAPS.ME problem - it's a "new
mappers" one. There have been "ban iD", "ban Potlatch" etc. complaints
since those editors have existed, and new mappers using JOSM are just as
likely to make a mess of things as with other editors, but the resulting
fallout tends to be rather more nuclear.

That said, there may well be some mileage in the ideas below:

Some ideas:

- maps.me should probably stick to simple-to-map
objects when it adds data. Complicated stuff should go in a note.

- if the maps.me data is old, any added object should
be a note by default

We get "notes by default" from other apps that use old data (e.g.
Navmii) and in that case it's just as annoying to deal with - actually
more so in that case as the notes are anonymous.

- maps.me should investigate why response is so low
to changeset comments. Maybe OSM messages can be integrated in the
app? Maybe added info should be Note by default until they have
responded to a test message sent through the OSM messaging system.
(though in my experience response to any OSM message is low, not just
maps.me users)

I'm not convinced that the reply rate from MAPS.ME users is much lower
than other new mappers. As you say, new mappers often don't reply -
probably because they think of OSM as a map or a database rather than a
community, and databases don't in general talk back to you. However,
that's just a gut feeling on my part - someone would need to go through
changesets and discussions and count up to be sure.

The same options are available with unresponsive MAPS.ME users as with
other users - try and contact them via changeset discussions, and if
that doesn't work drop a mail to the Data Working Group explaining the
problem. We can send them a message via the "block" mechanism that they
have to read before they can continue editing (without actually stopping
them from editing for any length of time). Usually the problem is a
language barrier one, or they're just not getting emails because they
don't monitor the account they signed up with, or they're just "not very
communicative", and once it's clear that the problem won't go away of
it's own accord they'll engage positively.

- maybe we should have a manual review system in place for ALL maps.me
changesets, until someone marks the account as
"experienced"

That's pretty much what's happening already (just not with MAPS.ME users
only). In many places around the world new mappers are either
explicitly welcomed or helped along through their first few edits.
There's even been a recent help question about using whodidit for the
purpose:

https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/50331/how-to-search-for-go-map-editor-in-whodidit

Cheers,

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-22 Thread joost schouppe

Yes, Johan, there was some Maps.me involvement in this thread already. Ilya
Zverev works with them.
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Andreas Vilén

My concern is based on the fact that post codes are deemed "important"
enough to be among maps.me's presets (they only allow presets and no free
tagging if I'm not mistaken) and post codes are something that's easy to
look up in sources we can't use but new users oblivious to what their
contributions in fact are don't know we can't use.

/Andreas, who has been surveying the province of Skåne, Sweden since 2008.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Grillo

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Richard Fairhurst 
wrote:

> Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > Post codes are also a little dubious, since those aren't open
> > data in Sweden and can normally only be figured out through
> > local knowledge
>
> Perish the thought that people might add their local knowledge to OSM. I
> thought it was all imports, armchairing and tagwanking these days.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/MAPS-ME-edits-partly-sub-standard-tp5875743p5876046.html
> Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Nicolás Alvarez

2016-06-21 10:28 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
> 2016-06-21 14:18 GMT+02:00 Andrew Harvey :
>>
>> I assume I need to manually download these and put them in the right
>> directory on my Android?
>
>
>
> on iOS you'll have to compile and codesign the app yourself, something
> that's far from trivial in this case, because the maps.me repo has versions
> for all OS in the same repo and uses a lot of scripting and advanced
> features and libs and has lots of targets and stuff (e.g. watch OS). I had a
> look at it for hours and couldn't get it to work, an while I'm sure someone
> with good programming skills could make this fly in a few minutes, it surely
> isn't an option for Joe Avarage.

That makes no sense, why would you need to compile the app? This is
just map files. You can use iTunes to put a new .mwm into the app.

-- 
Nicolás

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Johan C

Is MAPS.ME involved in this discussion? Without them interacting with the
community it will be of no use to have  further discussion.

Cheers, Johan
Op 21 jun. 2016 16:05 schreef "Oleksiy Muzalyev" <
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>:

> On 21.06.2016 15:36, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
>
>>
>> I wrote a program http://ausleuchtung.ch/geo_wiki/ which allows to find
>> location of all Wikipedia articles either by coordinates in the articles
>> themselves, or by the OpenStreetMap tags (wikipedia, wikimedia_commons,
>> wikidata) in the radius of ten kilometers around a click.
>>
>> It works for all language versions of Wikipedia, just change Wikipedia
>> language field from en to fr, de, it, ru, etc. A search by an OSM tag may
>> take 2 - 3 seconds.
>>
>> So it is possible to check Wikipedia articles locations and OSM tags in
>> an area visually. I noticed and corrected quite of few Wikipedia articles
>> with wrong geographical coordinates with this tool. Probably people, who
>> posses encyclopedic knowledge and create articles, are not always too good
>> in cartography.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Oleksiy
>>
>> For example, - the article Chapelle Notre-Dame-des-Voirons de Boëge
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapelle_Notre-Dame-des-Voirons_de_Bo%C3%ABge
>
> You can see in the History of this Wikipedia article the correction of
> geographical coordinates on January 1, 2016. This chapel is situated on a
> mountain, but before the correction the coordinates had been pointing on
> the top of another mountain, about 15 kilometers away.
> brgds
> Oleksiy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Oleksiy Muzalyev


On 21.06.2016 15:36, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:


I wrote a program http://ausleuchtung.ch/geo_wiki/ which allows to 
find location of all Wikipedia articles either by coordinates in the 
articles themselves, or by the OpenStreetMap tags (wikipedia, 
wikimedia_commons, wikidata) in the radius of ten kilometers around a 
click.


It works for all language versions of Wikipedia, just change Wikipedia 
language field from en to fr, de, it, ru, etc. A search by an OSM tag 
may take 2 - 3 seconds.


So it is possible to check Wikipedia articles locations and OSM tags 
in an area visually. I noticed and corrected quite of few Wikipedia 
articles with wrong geographical coordinates with this tool. Probably 
people, who posses encyclopedic knowledge and create articles, are not 
always too good in cartography.


Best regards,

Oleksiy

For example, - the article Chapelle Notre-Dame-des-Voirons de Boëge 
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapelle_Notre-Dame-des-Voirons_de_Bo%C3%ABge


You can see in the History of this Wikipedia article the correction of 
geographical coordinates on January 1, 2016. This chapel is situated on 
a mountain, but before the correction the coordinates had been pointing 
on the top of another mountain, about 15 kilometers away.

brgds
Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Oleksiy Muzalyev

On 21.06.2016 15:18, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2016-06-21 14:40 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett >:

On 20 Jun 2016 5:31 pm, "Martin Koppenhoefer"
> wrote:

> I have just discovered another type of problem:

> people adding full wikipedia urls into the website tag. In all
cases there was already a wikipedia tag present.

This is precisely the sort of thing a bot could clean up, daily or
weekly say.

actually it is not that simple. As we haven't only 1 method, but, for 
good reason, several, to store references to wikipedia, this bot would 
have to check whether the linked full url in the website is already 
covered by the wikipedia interlanguage links or not. This is not 
impossible, but also not completely trivial. This bot should also 
check whether the previous version had a different website value and 
restore this in case it makes sense, or flag it for human review.

Cheers,
Martin

I wrote a program http://ausleuchtung.ch/geo_wiki/ which allows to find 
location of all Wikipedia articles either by coordinates in the articles 
themselves, or by the OpenStreetMap tags (wikipedia, wikimedia_commons, 
wikidata) in the radius of ten kilometers around a click.

It works for all language versions of Wikipedia, just change Wikipedia 
language field from en to fr, de, it, ru, etc. A search by an OSM tag 
may take 2 - 3 seconds.

So it is possible to check Wikipedia articles locations and OSM tags in 
an area visually. I noticed and corrected quite of few Wikipedia 
articles with wrong geographical coordinates with this tool. Probably 
people, who posses encyclopedic knowledge and create articles, are not 
always too good in cartography.

Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 15:18 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> this bot would have to check whether the linked full url in the website is
> already covered by the wikipedia interlanguage links or not.



sorry, left out the rest: in case it isn't covered you'll have to check
whether it makes sense to store this as an alternative link (in the key
wikipedia:lang), something a human capable of understanding the language
and ideally knowing the situation, will have to do. Or alternatively
interlink this language with the other wikipedia articles, if this makes
sense.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 14:18 GMT+02:00 Andrew Harvey :

> I assume I need to manually download these and put them in the right
> directory on my Android?
>


on iOS you'll have to compile and codesign the app yourself, something
that's far from trivial in this case, because the maps.me repo has versions
for all OS in the same repo and uses a lot of scripting and advanced
features and libs and has lots of targets and stuff (e.g. watch OS). I had
a look at it for hours and couldn't get it to work, an while I'm sure
someone with good programming skills could make this fly in a few minutes,
it surely isn't an option for Joe Avarage.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 14:40 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett :

> On 20 Jun 2016 5:31 pm, "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
> wrote:
>
> > I have just discovered another type of problem:
>
> > people adding full wikipedia urls into the website tag. In all cases
> there was already a wikipedia tag present.
>
> This is precisely the sort of thing a bot could clean up, daily or weekly
> say.
>

actually it is not that simple. As we haven't only 1 method, but, for good
reason, several, to store references to wikipedia, this bot would have to
check whether the linked full url in the website is already covered by the
wikipedia interlanguage links or not. This is not impossible, but also not
completely trivial. This bot should also check whether the previous version
had a different website value and restore this in case it makes sense, or
flag it for human review.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Andy Mabbett

On 20 Jun 2016 5:31 pm, "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
wrote:

> I have just discovered another type of problem:

> people adding full wikipedia urls into the website tag. In all cases
there was already a wikipedia tag present.

This is precisely the sort of thing a bot could clean up, daily or weekly
say.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Andrew Harvey

On 21 June 2016 at 08:26, Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:
> But you don't need to; Maps.me already provides semi-official current map 
> files!
> http://direct.mapswithme.com/regular/daily/

I assume I need to manually download these and put them in the right
directory on my Android? Do you know if there is a way to have Maps.me
point to this directly and natively update maps using this? Unless
this is improved my Maps.me by default it won't get solved for the
majority of editors.

On 21 June 2016 at 16:20, Simon Poole  wrote:
> May I ask why you are not using Vespucci? Except naturally if you are on
> iOS, there I would recommend Go Map!
>
> It does have the disadvantage that you have to download the area of
> interest either online or in advance (but then you have to do that with
> maps.me too), it uses JOSM presets, you can change all tags. It has a
> reasonably well working address prediction system if you are actually
> surveying (which is the prime use case for the app which is why the
> focus is slightly different than for other apps) . 0.9.8 (which is in
> beta) offers, besides the conventional, key-value view a form based UI
> for adding tags, in general it is a bit like iD  from the tag editing pov.

I'm on Android. With Maps.me I can download whole countries in advance
and work offline which is important when you're paying per MB. With
Vespucci I believe it calls the OSM API directly to download a region,
not practical for downloading a whole country in advance (or not
possible if you don't set out to do mapping in the first place).

I tried Vespucci a while back and just tried it out again now, I find
the UI a bit clunky it just presents me with dots and lines (no
background map because I'm offline), Maps.me is very simple, easy and
fast to use, which is the key.

Also because I use Maps.me for day to day navigation I already have it
open and may see things missing while I'm navigating, if I can edit
straight in the same UI it's faster and easier than branching off to
another app to edit.

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread joost schouppe

>
> Joost, we don't have such entry barriers until now, it would be better to
> avoid them in improving the editor.
> Yves
>

What I meant to say is that there are currently barriers to participation:
the level of commitment required to learn iD or JOSM.

maps.me lowers that barrier, and here we are, complaining about the result.

So lowering the barriers means more QA. I'm agnostic as to whether it's
best to achieve better QU through improving the editor, asking for more
mapper involvement or more manual revision.
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 06/21/2016 11:07 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Perish the thought that people might add their local knowledge to OSM. I
> thought it was all imports, armchairing and tagwanking these days.

Only Canadians are allowed to enter their own post codes. The other
countries haven't had their lawsuits resolved yet.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 11:47 GMT+02:00 Yves :

> Joost, we don't have such entry barriers until now, it would be better to
> avoid them in improving the editor.



yes, it would be better to avoid entry barriers, but until the editor is
improved it could be a solution to add these edits as notes rather than
live edits to avoid a lot of stuff entered that lowers the map quality, and
that occurs in such a quantity that experienced mappers in most parts of
the world are not sufficiently numerous to adjust or remove it in time.
Notes also have the advantage that people can be more precise in their
descriptions compared to a small list of predefined tags.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Yves

Joost,  we don't have such entry barriers until now,  it would be better to 
avoid them in improving the editor. 
Yves 

Le 21 juin 2016 11:12:32 GMT+02:00, joost schouppe  a 
écrit :
>> OsmAnd has had online/offline simple editing feature for years and
>> still there were no problems with that.
>
>Therefore my guess would be
>> that mapsme does not make it clear to users that they are actually
>> editing the global/common database, not their local "favourites".
>>
>> Maybe because Osmand is mostly used by OpenStreetMappers and Maps.me
>by a
>much wider set of people.
>
>The scope for growth of our community with Maps.me is phenomenal. Of
>course
>there is room for improvement. But it's never going to be easy to lower
>the
>barriers to participation without losing quality.
>
>Some ideas:
>
>- maps.me should probably stick to simple-to-map objects when it adds
>data.
>Complicated stuff should go in a note.
>- if the maps.me data is old, any added object should be a note by
>default
>- maps.me should investigate why response is so low to changeset
>comments.
>Maybe OSM messages can be integrated in the app? Maybe added info
>should be
>Note by default until they have responded to a test message sent
>through
>the OSM messaging system. (though in my experience response to any OSM
>message is low, not just maps.me users)
>- maybe we should have a manual review system in place for ALL maps.me
>changesets, until someone marks the account as "experienced"
>
>-- 
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>Twitter  | LinkedIn
> | Meetup
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard



sent from a phone

> Il giorno 21 giu 2016, alle ore 11:12, joost schouppe 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Some ideas:
> 
> - maps.me should probably stick to simple-to-map objects when it adds data. 
> Complicated stuff should go in a note.


and there should go some more  thought into the presets, which objects are 
possible to map, for instance I noticed that there is no preset for church or 
place of worship, while there is "temple" (at least in the Italian 
translation), but I guess nobody would add a church as temple in Europe (I 
can't check which tags this will set).

Also there should likely be synonymous terms (at least in the tag search), for 
example amenity=fuel gets translated to "stazione di rifornimento", but  
(unlike our wiki) you don't find anything for the common term "benzinaio". Also 
the search in the app would gain from such a list, because currently I only get 
2 hits for a search for "benzinaio" in Rome, one being a brownfield 500km from 
here.

The fewer possibilities people are offered for feature classes to choose from, 
the more likely they will choose something similar but not appropriate (e.g. I 
saw a place which buys precious metals like gold tagged as jeweller's store, 
but it clearly isn't). On the other hand if the list gets too long, it becomes 
unwieldy to find something appropriate, so likely there should be some multi 
level structured list, rather than the current, longish, flat list.

Additionally people should actively be encouraged not to choose a similar term 
but rather add a note so that someone using a fully featured editor can add it 
later.



> - if the maps.me data is old, any added object should be a note by default
> - maps.me should investigate why response is so low to changeset comments. 
> Maybe OSM messages can be integrated in the app? Maybe added info should be 
> Note by default until they have responded to a test message sent through the 
> OSM messaging system. (though in my experience response to any OSM message is 
> low, not just maps.me users)
> - maybe we should have a manual review system in place for ALL maps.me 
> changesets, until someone marks the account as "experienced"


+1, these are all good suggestions.

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread joost schouppe

> OsmAnd has had online/offline simple editing feature for years and
> still there were no problems with that.

Therefore my guess would be
> that mapsme does not make it clear to users that they are actually
> editing the global/common database, not their local "favourites".
>
> Maybe because Osmand is mostly used by OpenStreetMappers and Maps.me by a
much wider set of people.

The scope for growth of our community with Maps.me is phenomenal. Of course
there is room for improvement. But it's never going to be easy to lower the
barriers to participation without losing quality.

Some ideas:

- maps.me should probably stick to simple-to-map objects when it adds data.
Complicated stuff should go in a note.
- if the maps.me data is old, any added object should be a note by default
- maps.me should investigate why response is so low to changeset comments.
Maybe OSM messages can be integrated in the app? Maybe added info should be
Note by default until they have responded to a test message sent through
the OSM messaging system. (though in my experience response to any OSM
message is low, not just maps.me users)
- maybe we should have a manual review system in place for ALL maps.me
changesets, until someone marks the account as "experienced"

-- 
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Openstreetmap  |
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 | Meetup

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Andreas Vilén wrote:
> Post codes are also a little dubious, since those aren't open 
> data in Sweden and can normally only be figured out through 
> local knowledge

Perish the thought that people might add their local knowledge to OSM. I
thought it was all imports, armchairing and tagwanking these days.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Tomas Straupis

OsmAnd has had online/offline simple editing feature for years and
still there were no problems with that. Therefore my guess would be
that mapsme does not make it clear to users that they are actually
editing the global/common database, not their local "favourites".

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard



sent from a phone

> Il giorno 20 giu 2016, alle ore 23:49, Andrew Harvey 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> I've been editing in JOSM for years and just started editing with
> Maps.me, and the fact that it's very fast and easy to make the edit is
> the main reason I have. If I walk past a shop, it's very easy to add
> it straight through the app, vs making a note and then spending time
> back home converting that note into mapping in JOSM.


yes, using a mobile editor "in the field"
has clearly advantages and if you don't have to draw a lot of geometry it is 
handy to use a phone or tablet.

On iOS I recommend goMap!! and on android you could have a look at Vespucci for 
more expert editing (everything that goes beyond fixing typos or adding the 
most common things). They allow for any tag to add 

cheers,
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Yves



Le 21 juin 2016 09:46:20 GMT+02:00, Frederik Ramm  a écrit 
:
>
>It sounds like all that's missing is for the application to refuse
>edits
>to a map that is too old (or at the very least allow that under
>protest)?
>

...  Or a validation at change upload time. 

Yves

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 06/21/2016 08:44 AM, Simon Poole wrote:
> The problem is not with people that know what the conceptual trade-offs
> are and if they so want could generate a more current map.

Well Nicolás said that maps.me do already produce daily maps. Daily
updates of course would still lead to more conflicts than a semi-live
editor like Vespucci but I guess it would be acceptable.

It sounds like all that's missing is for the application to refuse edits
to a map that is too old (or at the very least allow that under protest)?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Oleksiy Muzalyev

Thank you for the information. Frankly I heard about Vespucci, but I was 
not sure what this app does. Now I will definitively give Vespucci a 
try. It is much better to have two or more excellent mobile maps and 
editors than none.

Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 21.06.2016 8:20, Simon Poole wrote:

May I ask why you are not using Vespucci? Except naturally if you are on
iOS, there I would recommend Go Map!

It does have the disadvantage that you have to download the area of
interest either online or in advance (but then you have to do that with
maps.me too), it uses JOSM presets, you can change all tags. It has a
reasonably well working address prediction system if you are actually
surveying (which is the prime use case for the app which is why the
focus is slightly different than for other apps) . 0.9.8 (which is in
beta) offers, besides the conventional, key-value view a form based UI
for adding tags, in general it is a bit like iD  from the tag editing pov.

And in particular it renders everything.



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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Simon Poole

The problem is not with people that know what the conceptual trade-offs
are and if they so want could generate a more current map. That know
that they might be duplicating existing data and that will not be upset
when it promptly gets zapped. Try softening the experience for a well
meaning newbie of having the work you just did summarily removed right
after you entered it .

Now that might be rare if you are adding stuff in the middle of nowhere
where nobody is editing. But the people using maps.me are editing in
areas that can easily have 1000s of edits in a week if not 10'000s, they
are tourists in the busy centres of the world.

Simon

Am 21.06.2016 um 00:14 schrieb Frederik Ramm:
> Hi,
>
> On 06/20/2016 11:49 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>> The down side of course is that the Maps.me data isn't updated very
>> frequently so I might be duplicating data which has been added after
>> Maps.me last generated the data extracts, 
> Isn't Maps.me Open Source - could not someone else simply make current
> extracts available?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-21 Thread Simon Poole



Am 20.06.2016 um 23:49 schrieb Andrew Harvey:
> On 20 June 2016 at 22:48, Oleksiy Muzalyev  
> wrote:
>> Maps.me editor has got the principal difference from other editors, - it can 
>> be used without an active Internet connection.
> I've been editing in JOSM for years and just started editing with
> Maps.me, and the fact that it's very fast and easy to make the edit is
> the main reason I have. If I walk past a shop, it's very easy to add
> it straight through the app, vs making a note and then spending time
> back home converting that note into mapping in JOSM.
>
> The down side of course is that the Maps.me data isn't updated very
> frequently so I might be duplicating data which has been added after
> Maps.me last generated the data extracts, or potentially already in
> OSM but Maps.me wasn't rendering it (so I thought it didn't exist). I
> think this is something Maps.me should address that if it finds a
> similar tag nearby which was created at a time after your local
> offline data and if so let you know about it before uploading.
May I ask why you are not using Vespucci? Except naturally if you are on
iOS, there I would recommend Go Map!

It does have the disadvantage that you have to download the area of
interest either online or in advance (but then you have to do that with
maps.me too), it uses JOSM presets, you can change all tags. It has a
reasonably well working address prediction system if you are actually
surveying (which is the prime use case for the app which is why the
focus is slightly different than for other apps) . 0.9.8 (which is in
beta) offers, besides the conventional, key-value view a form based UI
for adding tags, in general it is a bit like iD  from the tag editing pov.

And in particular it renders everything.

>
> It's also frustrating that I can't add key=value tags, as an expert
> user this would be a handy option.
See above.
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Andreas Vilén

I'm using Go Map for quick editing on the go. It's only available for IOS
though: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Go_Map!!

It's pretty much as powerful as iD (at least to my knowledge, I never use
iD for anything more complicated than adding poi's or changing tag values)
and pretty easy to use for smaller edits, or for example adding a shop or
street name on the go.

/Andreas

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> On 20 June 2016 at 22:48, Oleksiy Muzalyev 
> wrote:
> > Maps.me editor has got the principal difference from other editors, - it
> can be used without an active Internet connection.
>
> I've been editing in JOSM for years and just started editing with
> Maps.me, and the fact that it's very fast and easy to make the edit is
> the main reason I have. If I walk past a shop, it's very easy to add
> it straight through the app, vs making a note and then spending time
> back home converting that note into mapping in JOSM.
>
> The down side of course is that the Maps.me data isn't updated very
> frequently so I might be duplicating data which has been added after
> Maps.me last generated the data extracts, or potentially already in
> OSM but Maps.me wasn't rendering it (so I thought it didn't exist). I
> think this is something Maps.me should address that if it finds a
> similar tag nearby which was created at a time after your local
> offline data and if so let you know about it before uploading.
>
> It's also frustrating that I can't add key=value tags, as an expert
> user this would be a handy option.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Nicolás Alvarez

2016-06-20 19:14 GMT-03:00 Frederik Ramm :
> Hi,
>
> On 06/20/2016 11:49 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>> The down side of course is that the Maps.me data isn't updated very
>> frequently so I might be duplicating data which has been added after
>> Maps.me last generated the data extracts,
>
> Isn't Maps.me Open Source - could not someone else simply make current
> extracts available?
>

Yes, and I have done it (downloaded a .pbf, applied diffs to it,
generated my own .mwm).

But you don't need to; Maps.me already provides semi-official current map files!
http://direct.mapswithme.com/regular/daily/

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 06/20/2016 11:49 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> The down side of course is that the Maps.me data isn't updated very
> frequently so I might be duplicating data which has been added after
> Maps.me last generated the data extracts, 

Isn't Maps.me Open Source - could not someone else simply make current
extracts available?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Jóhannes Birgir Jensson

I've been using Maps.me myself and find it easy to add shops - although 
I'm missing many presets (I change them when I come home to the right 
one but other users will not do that generally).


Maps.me was perfect for one activity that is usually painful - updating 
shops inside Iceland's largest mall. Several had shut down and others 
opened and updating it as I walked past each one in Maps.me was very 
easy to do - for those that had shut down I modified the name to make it 
clear and then deleted node at home. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39646645


It would be nice if there was a power-user setting on it - perhaps 
unlockable elsewhere (or based on edit # in OSM or something using 
non-Maps.me editors) so novice users can't wreak more havoc.



Þann 20.6.2016 21:49, skrifaði Andrew Harvey:

On 20 June 2016 at 22:48, Oleksiy Muzalyev  wrote:

Maps.me editor has got the principal difference from other editors, - it can be 
used without an active Internet connection.

I've been editing in JOSM for years and just started editing with
Maps.me, and the fact that it's very fast and easy to make the edit is
the main reason I have. If I walk past a shop, it's very easy to add
it straight through the app, vs making a note and then spending time
back home converting that note into mapping in JOSM.

The down side of course is that the Maps.me data isn't updated very
frequently so I might be duplicating data which has been added after
Maps.me last generated the data extracts, or potentially already in
OSM but Maps.me wasn't rendering it (so I thought it didn't exist). I
think this is something Maps.me should address that if it finds a
similar tag nearby which was created at a time after your local
offline data and if so let you know about it before uploading.

It's also frustrating that I can't add key=value tags, as an expert
user this would be a handy option.

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Andrew Harvey

On 20 June 2016 at 22:48, Oleksiy Muzalyev  wrote:
> Maps.me editor has got the principal difference from other editors, - it can 
> be used without an active Internet connection.

I've been editing in JOSM for years and just started editing with
Maps.me, and the fact that it's very fast and easy to make the edit is
the main reason I have. If I walk past a shop, it's very easy to add
it straight through the app, vs making a note and then spending time
back home converting that note into mapping in JOSM.

The down side of course is that the Maps.me data isn't updated very
frequently so I might be duplicating data which has been added after
Maps.me last generated the data extracts, or potentially already in
OSM but Maps.me wasn't rendering it (so I thought it didn't exist). I
think this is something Maps.me should address that if it finds a
similar tag nearby which was created at a time after your local
offline data and if so let you know about it before uploading.

It's also frustrating that I can't add key=value tags, as an expert
user this would be a handy option.

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Andreas Vilén

Look at this edit:http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4253750089/history

Is it not possible to use "special" characters lika åäö in the Maps.me app?
Also, why is it suggesting adding opening hours to a school? Post codes are
also a little dubious, since those aren't open data in Sweden and can
normally only be figured out through local knowledge (as what's on your
letters or if you work as a mail man). We have had some communication with
governing agency Post- och Telestyrelsen but so far they have not agreed
making post code data open. (see also http://www.postnummeruppror.nu/ )

/Andreas

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2016-06-20 17:48 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>> another issue: housenumber added to a building. This is not going to work
>> in Italy, because every entrance of a building gets it's own housenumber.
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/242789192
>>
>
>
> maybe there is more to this (like pre-compiled fields in the app?),
> because a business on the opposite side of the street has the same address:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4252088796
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 17:48 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> another issue: housenumber added to a building. This is not going to work
> in Italy, because every entrance of a building gets it's own housenumber.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/242789192
>


maybe there is more to this (like pre-compiled fields in the app?), because
a business on the opposite side of the street has the same address:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4252088796

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

another issue: housenumber added to a building. This is not going to work
in Italy, because every entrance of a building gets it's own housenumber.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/242789192

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 15:03 GMT+02:00 Philip Barnes :

> I guess an example of what I am seeing as a poor quality edit,
> http://osm.org/changeset/40156579
>
> An embassy called Rachel?
> Mistagging of a Monument?
>



well, this seems to be more the kind of "test" some newbies think they have
to perform to really be sure that they are doing online edits ;-)

I have just discovered another type of problem:
* people adding full wikipedia urls into the website tag. In all cases
there was already a wikipedia tag present.

I have now started to add: "Please contact maps.me for further support." at
the end of my changeset comments ;-)

One thing is clear, this new editor brings us an order of magnitude more
edits and new users than before, and if OSM will survive it (i.e. data
quality does not reach abyssal levels) it will be a major boost.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Philip Barnes

I guess an example of what I am seeing as a poor quality edit, 
http://osm.org/changeset/40156579

An embassy called Rachel?
Mistagging of a Monument?

Phil (trigpoint)

Phil 

On Mon Jun 20 12:52:13 2016 GMT+0100, Philip Barnes wrote:
> On Mon, 2016-06-20 at 11:26 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > 
> > 2016-06-19 22:35 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev :
> > > As for the maps.me, I am glad that foreign names issue is basically
> > > the only one that most people agree on.
> > > 
> > 
> > there are lots of different issues, and even if many of them have not
> > yet commented on them, I still believe they do have the potential to
> > harm overall data quality. From the manual reviews I have performed
> > so far, the amount of new issues introduced was far bigger than the
> > useful information that has been added, but I didn't look at enough
> > data to make this representative in any way (of course).
> > 
> > Some of the issues that come to mind:
> > 1. stuff put projected to the middle of the road rather than the
> > actual position (common newbie error, possibly because that's how
> > google and others present search results)
> > 2. stuff put without a tag what it is (just a name and a property
> > like tourism=attraction)
> > 3. duplicates added (things that are already there)
> > 4. poor semantic level (very low detail in tagging, in some
> > occassions to a point where it becomes not understandable any more,
> > sometimes mistagged as something vaguely similar)
> > 5. sometimes missplaced objects far off (likely due to bad location
> > data in the device and users not familiar with the area, and not
> > willing to properly orient themselves)
> > 
> Many of these are newbie errors, the same as we see with any other
> editor however the big difference I see with maps.me is the apparent
> lack of reaction to changeset comments that allow the community to help
> newbies through their initial edits. When adding comments to maps.me
> changesets I do get the feeling I am wasting my time.
> Another observation I see is the geographical spread of edits, a bar in
> Portugal followed by a guest house in the UK about the local knowledge
> of what they are adding.
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Oleksiy Muzalyev

Maps.me editor has got the principal difference from other editors, - it 
can be used without an active Internet connection. It means it is 
possible now to map in wilderness, in mountains, while traveling without 
worrying about roaming fees. Couple of years ago I used the Google maps 
on smartphone for several minutes to find an address in Milan and paid 
later an equivalent of 400 USD of roaming charges.


Facebook is completely internationalized. One can use Facebook in 113 
(!) languages. Facebook users after signing into Maps.me Editor with 
their Facebook credentials, probably, also expect a seamless exhaustive 
internationalization, which is not the case for any world map yet at 
all. But they may not know it and keep using one of those 113 languages 
unsuspectingly for mapping too. We were already informed that Maps.me 
will address this linguistic issue in future releases.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 20.06.2016 13:52, Philip Barnes wrote:


Many of these are newbie errors, the same as we see with any other 
editor however the big difference I see with maps.me is the apparent 
lack of reaction to changeset comments that allow the community to 
help newbies through their initial edits. When adding comments to 
maps.me changesets I do get the feeling I am wasting my time.


Another observation I see is the geographical spread of edits, a bar 
in Portugal followed by a guest house in the UK about the local 
knowledge of what they are adding.


Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

2016-06-20 Thread Philip Barnes

On Mon, 2016-06-20 at 11:26 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 2016-06-19 22:35 GMT+02:00 Ilya Zverev :
> > As for the maps.me, I am glad that foreign names issue is basically
> > the only one that most people agree on.
> > 
> 
> there are lots of different issues, and even if many of them have not
> yet commented on them, I still believe they do have the potential to
> harm overall data quality. From the manual reviews I have performed
> so far, the amount of new issues introduced was far bigger than the
> useful information that has been added, but I didn't look at enough
> data to make this representative in any way (of course).
> 
> Some of the issues that come to mind:
> 1. stuff put projected to the middle of the road rather than the
> actual position (common newbie error, possibly because that's how
> google and others present search results)
> 2. stuff put without a tag what it is (just a name and a property
> like tourism=attraction)
> 3. duplicates added (things that are already there)
> 4. poor semantic level (very low detail in tagging, in some
> occassions to a point where it becomes not understandable any more,
> sometimes mistagged as something vaguely similar)
> 5. sometimes missplaced objects far off (likely due to bad location
> data in the device and users not familiar with the area, and not
> willing to properly orient themselves)
> 
Many of these are newbie errors, the same as we see with any other
editor however the big difference I see with maps.me is the apparent
lack of reaction to changeset comments that allow the community to help
newbies through their initial edits. When adding comments to maps.me
changesets I do get the feeling I am wasting my time.
Another observation I see is the geographical spread of edits, a bar in
Portugal followed by a guest house in the UK about the local knowledge
of what they are adding.
Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard