Am 10.02.2011 19:50, schrieb Michael von Glasow:
What I
am certain of is that OSM can represent public transport routes,
possibly with some concessions on precision (such as not handling some
route variants).
Yes and no. That is, to some extent: in cities perhaps all the main
lines, but not al
On 02/02/2011 02:42 PM, Jo wrote:
Is it possible to add a way to a relation twice with Potlatch?
Out of 80 lines I "manage", I have such a situation once (not a way, but
a bus stop, actually). Is it an issue in your area?
LMB
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On 02/02/2011 03:14 PM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
On 02.02.2011 13:04, Michał Borsuk wrote:
Let's just get down to differences, I say your proposal is too
difficult. I've already spoken well about its data integrity, but new
users don't care about it. We need something tha
On 01/28/2011 07:26 PM, Michael von Glasow wrote:
On 01/28/2011 11:59 AM, Richard Mann wrote:
As I said in my previous post, I'm open to discussing that, though I
personally find tram stops beside the way are more consistent with bus
stops.
That, plus one data point for two geographical locatio
On 01/28/2011 02:45 PM, Jo wrote:
Yes that's one option. I'm a bit reluctant to put in separate
relations for each direction unless someone actually gives me a
compelling reason to do so. I already have some ways with more than 20
relations, and I don't really want to double that
On 01/28/2011 01:16 PM, Richard Mann wrote:
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Jo wrote:
You look at the schedule for that line and determine which one is considered
the terminus by the PT company.
Yes that's one option.
I've implemented it.
I'm a bit reluctant to put in separate
relations
On 01/27/2011 06:56 PM, ant wrote:
Hi,
On 27.01.2011 10:49, Richard Mann wrote:
Thanks, Richard.
I think we've got three broad decisions:
1) Whether the use of stop area / group relations should be
a) widespread
b) exceptional
b
b, ideally with a definition to what cases those exceptio
On 01/27/2011 07:20 AM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
On 01/26/2011 08:40 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
The bus service number 10 in Wintherthur is the most simple case you can
have. Absolutely no exceptions. See timetables of the two terminal
stations:
So there is yet another "line 10"
On 01/26/2011 10:01 AM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
On 26.01.2011 09:28, Michał Borsuk wrote:
"Here's an excerpt from the ZVV timetable for Bus 210, uptown Zürich"
In Zürich / ZVV there does NOT exist a bus 210.
And the data come from this:
http://www.zvv.ch/en/ti
Am 25.01.2011 13:52, schrieb Dominik Mahrer (Teddy):
On 01/25/2011 12:01 AM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
So far, so good. Let's then take a tram line, I selected a *random* stop
in the centre of Zürich, and *randomly* took tram line 10. Here's the
list of routes and their conditions:
..
Am 26.01.2011 08:43, schrieb Wojciech Kulesza:
>
> Just compare your relation with the working one :)
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/361959
> On first sight i'm wondering why you are mixing "railway=halt" and
> "railway=tram_stop"? Isn't all of it a tram line? Additionally yo
Am 25.01.2011 20:03, schrieb Claudius Henrichs:
Am 25.01.2011 18:30, Wojciech Kulesza:
Was wondering if the planned changes to approach in mapping public
transport would have an impact on this service:
http://78.46.81.38/public_transport.html
While it behaves quite nicely for the examples provi
On 01/24/2011 11:43 PM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
On 01/24/2011 07:24 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
On 01/24/2011 03:04 PM, Oleksandr Vlasov wrote:
3. bus_stop already defines `ref' tag, will proposed `stop_id' be
something
different?
>
ref= on a bus stop? That's news to
On 01/24/2011 11:06 AM, Frankie Roberto wrote:
[...] I don't think you'd consider Embankment and
Charing Cross stations to be part of the same stop area, even though
they're very close to each other? On the other hand, some stop areas
(Waterloo perhaps) may be huge, even though it may take you m
On 01/24/2011 11:22 AM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
By the way, I have removed stop_area_group from the proposal.
In essence this is good. I tried to implement this concept in OSM, but
could not find (come up with) a sensible standard.
Then what is the exact difference between public_
On 01/25/2011 12:19 AM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
On 01/24/2011 11:38 PM, Christian Krützfeldt wrote:
If disagree then please attack my arguments with
counter-arguments. I stand by what I wrote.
Well, I could agree with you that your proposal is fine for most usage
cases. But below you say it
On 01/24/2011 11:38 PM, Christian Krützfeldt wrote:
If disagree then please attack my arguments with
counter-arguments. I stand by what I wrote.
Well, I could agree with you that your proposal is fine for most usage cases.
But below you say it yourself, the direction is lost, so for all tho
On 01/24/2011 10:16 AM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
On 01/22/2011 08:38 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
On 01/22/2011 09:32 AM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
The more exact the OSM map is, the
more likely it is that the two directions do not share the same way for
the both directions (the lines
On 01/24/2011 03:04 PM, Oleksandr Vlasov wrote:
Michał Borsuk gmail.com> writes:
Just a small set of questions:
1. As I can see, currently stop-on-a-way is the preferred approach for mapping
tram stops. Do you propose to map tram stops like bus ones, i.e. beside the way?
I'd p
On 01/24/2011 02:09 PM, Richard Mann wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Christian wrote:
but it also includes people ... who would like to map also
physical path a bus takes on the street.
I think there's a logic in encouraging the use of ordered relations to
show the paths of bus/etc r
On 01/24/2011 12:40 PM, Christian wrote:
On 23.01.2011 13:18, Michał Borsuk wrote:
No, this can't be done in such detail, but it's not necessary as of
2011. All you need to know is where is the bus stop for the direction
you're interested in, or whether the bus stop you f
Am 24.01.2011 10:39, schrieb Dominik Mahrer (Teddy):
On 01/24/2011 10:10 AM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
As far as I understand the issue, stop areas are used to tie different
stops into one "transferring area".
No, you did not understand correct. stop_area_group is (was?) for that.
Th
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here *you* want me to?
Greetings,
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On 01/16/2011 10:54 PM, ant wrote:
On 15.01.2011 14:46, Michał Borsuk wrote:
Yes! I've been raising this issue here, it may have died among other
arguments: An overhaul and update of the documentation is more important
than pushing the new schema.
Do you have the resources to lead this pr
Compatibility of the proposal:
#Relations:
* with two relations per line: merging relations is necessary
* with one relation per line: 100% compatibility; if the existing lines
contain roles, they would be ignored
#Bus stops:
* with bus stops: 100% compatibility with existing bus stops which
Continuing on "How routing software works (and why OSM as-is is not
ready for routing)":
Coming back to the mapping of bus lines in OSM: you can see now that
what is presented to the user, as in the example before (the PDF
http://tisseo.fr/sites/default/files/Tisseo_hiv16web.pdf), is a
cut-an
On 01/22/2011 11:04 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
IMHO not related to the proposal:
- potlatch can not handle the proposal/nested relations correctly:
The latest version of Potlatch (Potlatch 2) handles nested relations
excellently. About 10 seconds' research would
Hello.
A few words how data is stored in routing software stores data and
works: both HAFAS (specs not officially published) and GOOGLE TRANSIT
(http://code.google.com/transit/spec/transit_feed_specification.html)
store *not* actual bus, tram, etc. lines, but each departure from the
terminus
On 01/23/2011 12:57 PM, Vincent Privat wrote:
2011/1/23 Michał Borsuk mailto:michal.bor...@gmail.com>>
Could you please explain what you mean, because I'm not sure. The
links provided show bus routes with nothing difficult in particular.
They could be mapped as one re
On 01/22/2011 10:00 PM, Vincent Privat wrote:
2011/1/22 Michał Borsuk mailto:michal.bor...@gmail.com>>
In urban regions it is common that a bus line has different
routes for
the both directions (often one way).
This doesn't matter as OSM itself is
On 01/22/2011 09:32 AM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
I try to seperate the criticism from the spam around my proposal:
- stop_area is not needed/too complicated:
[...]And it does not seam to be too complicated,
We have so many advanced issues in comparison to the total number of PT
objects b
On 01/17/2011 01:36 PM, Oleksandr Vlasov wrote:
Michał Borsuk gmail.com> writes:
This were true if we had 30 editors, but we have three. We have to bend
over to those who maintain them.
I do value the time and efforts editors' authors invested, and I believe
everyone does.
On 14 January 2011 18:53, ant wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> On 14.01.2011 13:30, Michał Borsuk wrote:
>
>> Even invariant lines become challenging for beginners, because the
>>> concept of forward and backward roles is really difficult to grasp.
>>>
>> I may h
ssignment? If so, in which journal would you like
to publish?
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On 01/14/2011 07:22 PM, ant wrote:
Sorry for flooding this list.
On 14.01.2011 13:30, Michał Borsuk wrote:
What's wrong with multiple, non-nested relations? - I'm not saying we
need a route master.
1. weak point in case of rerouting: a beginner may move only one route;
more work
Am 14.01.2011 12:29, schrieb Oleksandr Vlasov:
Michał Borsuk gmail.com> writes:
Au contraire. Whatever is used, is the law, or is going to become the
law. There is no divine being telling us what to do, so your promise of
"not being obliged to do whatever" is worth nothing. bec
Am 14.01.2011 12:46, schrieb ant:
Hi,
On 14.01.2011 09:58, Michał Borsuk wrote:
How about you, and the few of us who understand why the proposal is a
mere nonsense, develop a better proposal? We seem to share the
understanding of the flaws; a new proposal may lead to a secession,
which is the
Am 14.01.2011 12:36, schrieb Carsten Schönert:
Am 14.01.2011 09:43, schrieb Michał Borsuk:
Whith any kind of an preset for JOSM it is easier to tag complex data,
And? Is a plugin for Potlatch also on the way?
And?
And you're cutting off beginners. This is indeed a strong
counter-arg
t
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Am 14.01.2011 12:21, schrieb Oleksandr Vlasov:
Michał Borsuk gmail.com> writes:
With what's in the proposal? That's pretty arogant, don't you find? We
haven't decided on the final shape yet.
It's not by any mean.
There's nothing bad in developing a softwa
On 01/14/2011 02:16 AM, Tobias Knerr wrote:
Dominik Mahrer wrote:
One month ago I already posted an RFC on this proposal. In the meantime
I got plenty of comments and I have extended/corrected/rewritten nearly
the whole proposal.
I'm not very happy with the extensive use of relations. Especial
On 01/14/2011 08:37 AM, André Joost wrote:
Am 13.01.11 21:57, schrieb Michał Borsuk:
If this is your project, please stop at once, and wait until after the
vote.
Otherwise you will piss off many valuable mappers.
I think you never used josm so far.
You're tryng to derail the convers
On 01/14/2011 09:19 AM, Vincent Pottier wrote:
Le 13/01/2011 21:57, Michał Borsuk a écrit :
If this is your project, please stop at once, and wait until after the
vote. Otherwise you will piss off many valuable mappers.
-1
Please don't stop making tools evolve ! Please, try on, s
On 01/14/2011 08:43 AM, Carsten Schönert wrote:
Hello
Am 13.01.2011 21:57, schrieb Michał Borsuk:
Somewhere besides the "Doctors in Greece", the "OpenPisteMap" and
the "Japanese 50 sounds order" presets.
A preset could help testing the proposal
On 13 January 2011 21:42, Claudius Henrichs wrote:
> Am 13.01.2011 21:33, Michał Borsuk:
>
>
>
> On 13 January 2011 13:59, André Joost
>
> > wrote:
>
>> Am 13.01.11 13:27, schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
>>
>>> Could I have your assurance that
ngs,
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On 01/13/2011 06:16 PM, Oleksandr Vlasov wrote:
Richard Fairhurst systemeD.net> writes:
It is incumbent on those making the proposal to consider how this
might be achieved. Saying "oh, the editor writers are my coding
bitches and will happily spend a weekend of their time supporting my
latest
On 01/13/2011 01:27 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Hello all,
I note with some alarm the very complex, relation-heavy proposal for
mapping simple public transport objects.
Suddenly I am not all alone?
Greetings,
LMB
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On 01/12/2011 06:34 PM, ant wrote:
On 12.01.2011 17:27, Richard Mann wrote:
I think there is some misunderstanding. I'm talking about the use of
relations to group stop positions and platforms together that are
considered a stop or station where one can change vehicles.
Again, why enter it
On 01/12/2011 05:07 PM, ant wrote:
A node in this context means "a
place where i can change from one bus (tram) line to another without
having to walk more than a few metres".In the proposed scheme a stop
area is exactly this.
Sorry, but this is absolutely pointless. First of all, modern rou
we want to
have a clear standard for beginners, and for our own ease of use (and fun).
Greetings,
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ome
people may want to simply copy Google Transit data, but again, Google
Transit at present covers very small area.)
Greetngs,
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sure a
similar plan could be applied in the UK. My point is not to reinvent the
wheel, no matter how much one likes programming.
cheers
also,
ant
michal
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Am 12.01.2011 12:37, schrieb ant:
On 12.01.2011 09:52, Michał Borsuk wrote:
The visually impaired are a very small minority, and clearly OSM has
different, more basic issues to deal with. We should focus on the
mainstream first, to get OSM out of the beta version it is now.
It is not our
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Am 12.01.2011 11:10, schrieb Albin Michlmayr:
Am Tue, 11 Jan 2011 20:21:41 +0100
schrieb Michał Borsuk:
On 11 January 2011 18:59, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy)
wrote:
I began searching for alternatives and found Oxomoa, unified
stoparea, stop place and others. All are created because the
current
Am 12.01.2011 07:50, schrieb André Joost:
Am 11.01.11 17:01, schrieb Michał Borsuk: You do get that information
when you are at the spot. It is written on
the timetable.
If you are able to see, yes. But disabled (that is everyone who has to
use public transport because he/she is not able to
Am 12.01.2011 00:54, schrieb Vincent Pottier:
Le 11/01/2011 18:25, Michał Borsuk a écrit :
I totally agree! For me it was a very timeconsuming search when I
tried to figure out how to set the role of an element in the route. I
found contradicting wiki pages
YES! that'
On 01/11/2011 08:53 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
Hello everybody.
Now to what I'd change in the proposal:
1. Data consistency
Data consistency (not having a myriad of standards) is important,
...but it's not everything. Reaching this point to near 100% will cost
us the point
ine, that's how public collaboration works after
all.
5. Info page on wiki
Absolutely crucial.
I hope this is simple and clear. A creative (I hope) criticism of oxomoa and
Teddych's proposal follows.
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arning curve" may be
> correct, but it does not help further.
>
In another topic.
>
> Teddych
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On 11 January 2011 18:06, Albin Michlmayr wrote:
> Am Tue, 11 Jan 2011 15:15:27 +0100
> schrieb André Joost
> >:
>
> > Am 11.01.11 15:00, schrieb Michał Borsuk:
> >
> > > Questions:
> > > * What has been achieved by *three *relations that could have
On 11 January 2011 17:20, Sander Deryckere wrote:
> 2011/1/11 Michał Borsuk
>
>> Am 11.01.2011 10:42, schrieb Sander Deryckere:
>>
>>
>>> Before this becomes standard, could someone please make a script to
>>> transform one tagging scheme in an other
Am 11.01.2011 16:17, schrieb Vincent Pottier:
Le 11/01/2011 15:00, Michał Borsuk a écrit :
Everybody: please note that I am not stubbornly defending the old
way. I just want to make sure that *efficiency, ease of use and the
learning curve* had been taken into account when designing the new
Am 11.01.2011 13:28, schrieb Christian:
On 11.01.2011 12:15, Michał Borsuk wrote:
Am 11.01.2011 10:34, schrieb Claudius Henrichs:
Arguments for relations in each direction:
- easier to check correctness and completeness (simply select each
direction's relation in JOSM)
- easier to m
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Am 11.01.2011 15:15, schrieb André Joost:
Am 11.01.11 15:00, schrieb Michał Borsuk:
Questions:
* What has been achieved by *three *relations that could have not been
achieved by roles? How faster and easier is managing two/three relations
than managing a role on the route?
This role thing is
Am 11.01.2011 11:55, schrieb André Joost:
Am 11.01.11 08:33, schrieb Michał Borsuk:
Is there anybody else using it? I'd like to see more examples out of
Germany or Switzerland, bitte.
You will find a lot of well-mapped routes here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/AVV
I have opened
ies (next to "clarity
of data"):
*ease of use,
*efficiency,
*sensible learning curve.
Greetings,
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Am 11.01.2011 13:14, schrieb Vincent Privat:
2011/1/11 Michał Borsuk <mailto:michal.bor...@gmail.com>>
Am 11.01.2011 10:34, schrieb Claudius Henrichs:
Arguments for relations in each direction:
- easier to check correctness and completeness (simply select
each di
strongly support this proposal which 90% reflect how I'm currently
mapping in Europe and Asia.
Think of new users.
Claudius
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ttp://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1244886/history
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1281532/history
Is there anybody else using it? I'd like to see more examples out of Germany
or Switzerland, bitte.
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draft? What are the arguments for two relations in each
direction?
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strange way, and with
smaller places it isn't always clear.
> That way renderers get the actual (local) name of the stop separately from
> the town it is in and can decide how to process these:
But it's more complicated, and not compatible with existing software, I am
specific
On 15 December 2010 07:37, David Murn wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-12-15 at 07:10 +0100, Michał Borsuk wrote:
>
>
> > Sorry, but what is between me and him personally is not your business.
>
> Maybe you sent more to him, but the only part that was posted here were
> 2 sen
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On 14 December 2010 22:56, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
> Today morning I got this off the list:
>
> On 12/14/2010 07:56 AM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
>
>> I already told you twice to behave, you little shit. If it continues, I
>> will have you removed from the list.
>&
On 11 December 2010 15:08, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
> On 12/11/2010 09:26 AM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
>
>>Many city and/or network public transport wiki pages in central
>>europe recommend to use highway=bus_stop _on_ the way
>>
>>
>> And they a
way. They do not want to move them (in which direction ever).
>
Do you have any other personal accusations towards other mappers?
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pproach, and tag
> stats displayed to show which is dominant where. It does not need a
> public_transport key to confuse matters further.
>
Most of all, it works.
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_
we really need this role? Could you provide an
example, as I may not completely understand the details?
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data user worry about it.
I do it this way: end points from the timetable (Kursbuch), so the
"forward" role goes to the last stop indicated in the timetable, and the
"backward" role goes forth.
Richard
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On 9 December 2010 23:40, Michael von Glasow wrote:
> On 12/09/2010 01:31 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
>
>
>
>
> There is the issue of "multiple relations per line" in oxomoa, which in my
> opinion is a total misfit. There are "roles" in relations, and d
atch and
Merkaartor account for 2/3 edits together.
This simply cannot be passed to the final draft unchanged (as is).
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Talk
I was not
> clear enough: First, let us consider
>
Izvinite, Andriei, but this is not the correct newsgroup (mailing list) for
such elaborations. Let us then not consider further.
Greetings,
Michał
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nsporter is only copying THEIR "database", which is not big enough
to make a database. You see?
No, I don't.
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rhaps not in
France. Stay cautious. Ask another lawyer?
Greetings, and good luck.
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http://lis
with only the bus lines being awarded to the winner of an auction.
That's how it is west of Rhine (which is, of course, not necessarily
better). Such a body is easier to approach with an offer to share the
timetable.
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On 17.11.2010 13:51, Hillsman, Edward wrote:
Opnvkarte does not provide coverage in North America.
It might, as it did shortly in September, before the stall. It's called
opebusmap.org internationally.
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Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia,
M
eundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia,
Michał Borsuk
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I'd not be able
to imagine how that'd work. But it does.
> regards,
>
also,
> Sander
>
>
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Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia,
Michał Borsuk
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o an
overlay website, but are you sure what you're getting into? Good luck.
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Michał Borsuk
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volunteers to pull this off. We had a public
transport routes map, which stalled and is not updated anymore. I'd wish
that would be repaired first (http://öpnvkarte.de<http://xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de>
).
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On 04.10.2010 11:09, Peter Miller wrote:
On 2 October 2010 05:28, Michał Borsuk <mailto:michal.bor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
2010/10/1 Jo mailto:winfi...@gmail.com>>
[...] I'm pretty sure that if one gets the PT companies to
share their data, it's
nd store child routes withing that
collection, but as of today there is no efficient way to deal with this.
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T
the entry-level editor for most
mappers, and common editor for 1/3 of all users? (Mind you, there are things
Potlatch can do that are hardly possible in Josm or Merkaartor)
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Michał Borsuk
_
one way streets are are, quite an overkill (because it's
rarely needed, mostly around termini). This could be solved by child
relations/roles as well, but only for sections where the routes forwards and
backwards don't match.
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n, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia,
Michał Borsuk
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