Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Martin Koppenhoefer writes: I do agree that they might likely have copyright on the routes, and that we maybe can't reproduce their routes in our db, but I do question that we can't map their signposts. Reasoning: the routes are nothing physically existing, they are, similar to a novel, creati

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Am 08.04.2015 um 15:23 schrieb Russ Nelson: > Simon Poole writes: > > The wiki already explains: they hold a trademark for GR which makes > > using the "official" names of the routes essentially impossible in and > > Perhaps French trademark law is different than US trademark law, but > in the

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Simon Poole writes: > The wiki already explains: they hold a trademark for GR which makes > using the "official" names of the routes essentially impossible in and Perhaps French trademark law is different than US trademark law, but in the US, you can *always* use a trademark truthfully. Thus, yo

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

2015-04-08 9:05 GMT+02:00 Simon Poole : > The wiki already explains: they hold a trademark for GR which makes > using the "official" names of the routes essentially impossible in and > for material they hold protection for and further they seem to claim > copyright on the routes themselves, which

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Am 07.04.2015 um 16:51 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: ... > > is this something the OSMF lawyers have had a look into? Is the issue > really "copyright" or is this about "trademark" (regarding the names > "GR" "PR" etc.)? Currently it seems we are accepting what the Fédération > Francaise de la Ra

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

2015-04-04 16:46 GMT+02:00 Simon Poole : > Sorry for the late answer, been on the road for two days and now are on a > rather flaky network connection. See > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France for a very short > synopsis of the GR issue. > is this something the OSMF lawyer

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Under French law, would it be a violation of that copyright if someone recorded a GPX trace while walking along the signposted route, then mapped that route in OSM using the GPX trace and not using the GR name or shield? Do any of these routes have non-copyrighted local names? On April 4, 2015

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Minh Nguyen writes: > On 2015-04-03 22:25, Russ Nelson wrote: > > Greg Morgan writes: > > > * In my case, TIGER isn't all the that bad. > > > > In some NY counties, TIGER is very good. In other places it is like > > Stevie Wonder was in charge of quality control. What I've heard is > > tha

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

I feel the OSM project is missing a major opportunity to find mappers, by focusing on finding mappers. Instead find enthusiasts for . It could be RV toilets, street art, abandoned railways (ahem), free book stands, fairy houses, whatever. OSM is far behind Goog

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On 4/3/2015 5:32 PM, Eleanor Tutt wrote: I'm interested in hearing more about how and why people contribute to the map. It's just a hobby for me, a way to get out and learn some obscure facts about a place. Most contributions come from a GPS survey or local observation. Although I believ

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: TIGER is much older than reasonably portable GPS units. According to [1] pre-TIGER paper map sources were below the quality of the 1:100,000 DLG data outside of urban areas. Many of the crazy spaghetti data areas we see probably haven't ch

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Hi Frederik, On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 3:36 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > On 04/04/2015 07:20 PM, Simon Poole wrote: > >> I just don't want to be called a couch potato in the course of it ;-) > > > Seriously, I believe Frederik was more referring to how OSM is viewed by > > third parties > > I

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

> So I think the issue of long term data maintenance is a separate issue from > that of imports though imported data may spotlight the issue more. Agreed. Data maintenance is a much duller task than adding new data, and that’s going to be an issue anywhere and has nothing to do with the origin o

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

OSM started out with the do-it-yourself, clean room approach of on-the-ground surveying. It offers the strongest guarantee of legal compliance and appropriateness for OSM -- no legal analysis required. All of us certainly hold such efforts in the highest esteem, but I do see an argument for let

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Tod Fitch wrote: > Might be interesting to see a breakdown of current map objects in the US > to see how many last had manual edits or corrections versus how many are > imports. > There are a lot of stealth imports... ___

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

> On Apr 4, 2015, at 1:36 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Indeed. I don't have much exposure to US Americans outside of OSM but in > the few interactions like that I had, if people did have any conception > about OSM it usually fell into one of the two categories I mentioned - > either "OSM the hac

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

TIGER is much older than reasonably portable GPS units. It was originally developed for the 1990 Census, which means work began much earlier than that. In 1990, handheld GPS units were not even available to the military. Much of the original data was traced from paper maps (which is also true of

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On 2015-04-02 17:41, stevea wrote: Simon Poole writes: Up to now OSM has drawn the line in such a way that stuff that is signposted and is observable on the ground is fair game (with some exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved). Yes, all of that is fair game. Though I don't know

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote: > I am much more worried about imports for a completely different reason, > and that is data maintenance > If the external data were not imported, but kept in a separate > external-data layer, the situation could be different, because you

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Hi, On 04/04/2015 07:20 PM, Simon Poole wrote: >> I just don't want to be called a couch potato in the course of it ;-) > Seriously, I believe Frederik was more referring to how OSM is viewed by > third parties Indeed. I don't have much exposure to US Americans outside of OSM but in the few int

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On 4/4/2015 1:04 PM, Minh Nguyen wrote: I wonder if it was even about the resolution in some counties. It's as if the data was traced off a cartogram, or maybe reconstructed from a table of intersections. Or recorded with a GPS back in the days when the signal was scrambled, that is with the

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Minh Nguyen wrote: > On 2015-04-03 22:25, Russ Nelson wrote: > >> Greg Morgan writes: >> > * In my case, TIGER isn't all the that bad. >> >> In some NY counties, TIGER is very good. In other places it is like >> Stevie Wonder was in charge of quality control. Wh

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On 4/3/2015 10:06 PM, Eleanor Tutt wrote: Paul - If perception of mapping in the US isn't aligning with reality, we probably *do* need to do a better job as a chapter board of telling the full story. I see what you mean about the blog posts, though I do think your interpretation is a bit harsh.

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Am 04.04.2015 um 18:40 schrieb stevea: > Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world > I respectfully and strenuously disagree. We still (and likely will) > continue to have some predictable and manageable problems with import > of data from third party sources, but we have procedures in pla

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Am 04.04.2015 um 17:03 schrieb Alex Barth: > I just don't want to be called a couch potato in the course of it ;-) Couch carrot? :-P Seriously, I believe Frederik was more referring to how OSM is viewed by third parties and the impression outsiders could get from the image we tend to market. And h

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On 2015-04-03 22:25, Russ Nelson wrote: Greg Morgan writes: > * In my case, TIGER isn't all the that bad. In some NY counties, TIGER is very good. In other places it is like Stevie Wonder was in charge of quality control. What I've heard is that the maps they were digitizing off were of MUCH l

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved). Yes, all of that is fair game. Though I don't know what "the GR issue" is, and ask you to please clarify. Sorry for the late answer, been on the road for two days and now are on a rather flaky network connection. See

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Many areas of the western US are sparsely populated. Not only are there few mappers per square mile, there are simply very few people per square mile. I map were I visit. But in more than a few cases I may only visit and area once. This could lead to the same issue you worry about for imports: T

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Thanks so much, Serge - seriously. Your apology means a lot to me. Happy mapping! Eleanor On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Eleanor Tutt > wrote: > > Hi, Serge. > > > > As a member of the chapter board, I feel a bit erased? misrepresen

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Also! There's still time to join the upcoming #mapathon by organizing an event in your community https://twitter.com/OpenStreetMapUS/status/584378522245922816 On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Eleanor Tutt > wrote: > > Hi, Serge. > > > >

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Eleanor Tutt wrote: > Hi, Serge. > > As a member of the chapter board, I feel a bit erased? misrepresented? by > your email. It hurt, especially because I think you and I share some common > ground about why we map and that it is important to feel a connection to a

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 8:53 PM, Paul Norman wrote: > In the current board term I counted 15 blog posts. The breakdown of these > is > > 7 conference > 3 indoor computer-based events > 2 non-OSM geo-related projects > 2 chapter administrative > 1 HOT > > Last year, it is similar, except the confer

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Hi, Serge. As a member of the chapter board, I feel a bit erased? misrepresented? by your email. It hurt, especially because I think you and I share some common ground about why we map and that it is important to feel a connection to a place. At any rate, while you are more qualified to speak to

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > > The events are characterized as "Edit-a-thons" and they were designed > to be run indoors. They were essentially a response from some members > of the community who felt that Mapping Parties were not for them. The > advantage of an Edit-A

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

I actually think it's fine Frederik has opinions about how we should do things around here in the US and shares them. I just don't want to be called a couch potato in the course of it ;-) On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Kate Chapman wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wro

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Am 03.04.2015 um 02:41 schrieb stevea: > Facts about the world > Simon Poole writes: >> Up to now OSM has drawn the line in such a way that stuff that is >> signposted and is observable on the ground is fair game (with some >> exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved). > > Yes, all of t

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Am 04.04.2015 um 14:57 schrieb Kate Chapman: ... Small reality check (not saying that this is anybodies fault, just how it is): - the US community shapes how the project is perceived by the media globally - US based companies control the majority of funds spent on OSM development and have a major

[Talk-us] Facts about the world

Hi all, I have been reading most of the exchange about the different approaches. My take on it is that the entire discussion is missing something that is in my view much more important than the quality of the data at the moment of important: I am much more worried about imports for a completely di

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > On 04/03/2015 02:41 AM, stevea wrote: > > > It seems to me that in the USA, what people think about OSM is one of > these two: > > (a) A project for hackers and couch potatoes who trawl their county web > pages and other sources to lo

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Paul Norman writes: Yes. To substantiate this, I looked at communications from the US chapter Hmph: "You guys seem to armchair map, I say from my armchair mapping substantiation perspective." Not me, at least, not always. Do your stats show how I (and thousands like me) map away from my a

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > It would be nice if we could have SotM US this June be a venue to dispel > some of the assumptions that seem to exist abroad about the U.S > OpenStreetMap community. Reducing the U.S. community to a bunch of couch > potatoes who are more

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Eleanor, I want to clarify some things: On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 1:06 AM, Eleanor Tutt wrote: > Paul - If perception of mapping in the US isn't aligning with reality, we > probably *do* need to do a better job as a chapter board of telling the full > story. I believe that the story that the boar

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Greg Morgan writes: > * In my case, TIGER isn't all the that bad. In some NY counties, TIGER is very good. In other places it is like Stevie Wonder was in charge of quality control. What I've heard is that the maps they were digitizing off were of MUCH lower resolution than we have available now.

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Serge - Thanks for the detailed response! I think I do recall seeing your blog post in the past, but I reread it now and your concerns - especially "who decides what gets shown on the map" - very much resonate with me. Paul - If perception of mapping in the US isn't aligning with reality, we prob

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Eleanor Tutt wrote: > Side note relevant to this conversation: I would love to hear from mappers > in the US who are collecting data "on the ground" - either by themselves or > by organizing mapathons and building community. I can think of quite a few > examples,

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Frederik Ramm writes: > isn't "us" who must move our flag to make it (even) easier to swamp us > with (often low quality) third-party data. You're blowing smoke in a no-smoking zone, Frederik. Looking at BNSF's system map (or calling up BNSF's public affairs office) to see what they call their s

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Eleanor, I don't see a reason not to be public with my reply to you. I organize mapping parties during the warmer months (have one next week) and during the colder months, organize indoor mapping events. The indoor events tend to get less participants than the outdoor ones, which is surprising.

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Hi everyone, Second warning. Please cool it down. We're all in this project together, and if we can't keep our conversations on the mailing list civil then we should step away from the e-mail client and go map. -Ian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@open

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

My god, this is arrogant. Crap like this is the #1 reason I’m not an OSMF member. If this is what counts as the “OSM community” – I want no part of it. d. On Apr 3, 2015, at 17:53, Paul Norman wrote: > On 4/3/2015 11:19 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: >> Perhaps we, as the U.S. chapter, play a ro

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On 4/3/2015 11:19 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: Perhaps we, as the U.S. chapter, play a role in creating or sustaining these false assumptions? Yes. To substantiate this, I looked at communications from the US chapter I looked through the current board term and the previous board term. In the c

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Side note relevant to this conversation: I would love to hear from mappers in the US who are collecting data "on the ground" - either by themselves or by organizing mapathons and building community. I can think of quite a few examples, but I'm interested in hearing more about how and why people co

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Darrell, > > On 04/03/2015 08:39 PM, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > > Ignore the haters, we’re doing fine. > > I don't know if that thing about "haters" is just a generic figure of > speech but if you should indeed believe that I have expressed h

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Darrell, On 04/03/2015 08:39 PM, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > Ignore the haters, we’re doing fine. I don't know if that thing about "haters" is just a generic figure of speech but if you should indeed believe that I have expressed hate about anything, then you are mistaken (and I would feel a bit of

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

> > Perhaps we, as the U.S. chapter, play a role in creating or sustaining these > false assumptions? Do we need to do a better job highlighting really good > local mapping efforts? I would welcome opinions and ideas. > Honestly, no, I don’t think we do. Frederik just isn’t paying attention if

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

It would be nice if we could have SotM US this June be a venue to dispel some of the assumptions that seem to exist abroad about the U.S OpenStreetMap community. Reducing the U.S. community to a bunch of couch potatoes who are more concerned with mapping remote places and importing data is not only

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On 04/03/2015 02:41 AM, stevea wrote: Erring on the side of "high ground" safety might be a good place to plant an initial flag, but if it's location is wrong and > we need to move it to a more accurate place, we must do so. And Frederik Ramm replied: Frankly - no. OSM does not depend on t

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

On 4/3/2015 8:18 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, I'm really sad that time and time again we have to fight about whether or not a specific source is permitted to be used in OSM, when we could just collect the facts ourselves and therefore be completely free of any legal implications (and also free

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Hello! While I think that (vetted, high quality) imports and armchair mapping have the ability to improve OSM, especially for things like building footprints that are hard to survey on the ground without traipsing across private property, I certainly hope that people do not view the US as *exclusi

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

> On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:18 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > . . . > It seems to me that in the USA, what people think about OSM is one of > these two: > > (a) A project for hackers and couch potatoes who trawl their county web > pages and other sources to look for stuff they could "upload" to OSM >

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Not sure it is necessary to suggest all nonhackers and non humanitarians on this list are couch potatoes to further the argument. Osm is a place where imports happen, we have rules to stick to, we want to have educated discussions about those rules. I am tired of import bashing as an unproductive

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

Hi, On 04/03/2015 02:41 AM, stevea wrote: > Erring on the side of "high ground" safety might be > a good place to plant an initial flag, but if it's location is wrong and > we need to move it to a more accurate place, we must do so. Frankly - no. OSM does not depend on the inclusion of third part

[Talk-us] Facts about the world

Simon Poole writes: Up to now OSM has drawn the line in such a way that stuff that is signposted and is observable on the ground is fair game (with some exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved). Yes, all of that is fair game. Though I don't know what "the GR issue" is, and ask yo