On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:49:00 -0500 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > DAVEH: > > I don't (can't) want to speak for Blaine, but you may > > be underestimating what I read and don't read. I have > > already read a fair amount of anti-LDS material. > > ... at the moment, I have more on my plate than I can > > consume......and I have a voracious appetite! > > Dave, I have expressed to you that this book is the smoking gun with > regard > to the LDS world view. It clearly shows Joseph Smith to be a fraud, > not by > rhetoric, but by pointing the reader to hard scientific facts. > There is > some rhetoric, especially toward the end of the book, but the bulk > of it > simply presents many facts in a readable way that tells the story of > the > Book of Abraham and the discovery of the original documents from > which > Joseph Smith worked. > > The problem is that rational Mormons who consider this evidence > either leave > Mormonism or they realize that it is a false religion but find > solace in the > idea that it is the best of all religions which are all simply > fraternities > of men. It would be like someone proving the Bible to be a hoax, > what would > we all do? I would ditch the Bible and any church that claimed the > Bible > was the inerrant Word of God. > > What is puzzling to us is how you and Blaine so nonchalantly dismiss > this > book without reading it. You are offered it free of charge with > only the > requirement that you read it. Yet, you show a curious lack of > concern about > it. If someone offered me a free book about how the Bible is > exposed as a > fraud, claiming that it would seriously challenge my worldview about > the > Bible, then I would readily accept such an offer. I would be eager > to read > such a book if it were recommended by you as the smoking gun that > exposed > mainstream Christianity as a hoax. You and Blaine do not have this > attitude > of openness, so it seems to us a reason how you guys can let > yourselves be > deceived by Mormonism. Obviously, if you only look at evidence > through the > positive and sanitized viewpoint of the LDS church, you are opening > yourself > up to deception if there is deception in that church. This is what > happened > in Roman Catholicism and accounts for much of the error that they > fell into. > It appears that Mormonism is repeating their history.
Blainer) It also appears DavidM is pressuring us to read something that is far more important to him than it is to us. I often refuse to do something if I am being pressured. What about you, Dave? If it were not so terribly important to DavidM that we read this book, I might read it, I just hate being pressured. We defer to these guys all the time as to what we discuss, and we respect their right to ignore something, which they do constantly, day in and day out. But apparently this is not going to happen for us. I think this is the third or fourth time you, DaveH, have told them to back off. What I wonder is why they are so insistent. I think they just finally found what they THINK is an ace in the hole, and they are so anxious to play that card!! I am actually having fun resisting! LOL > > Dave H wrote: > > It seems that several/many TTers want to argue > > against "Mormonism" with me. I have repeatedly > > stated that I am not here to argue LDS theology. > > That has been difficult for some to grasp, but recently I think you > are > getting caught in some crossfire because Blaine is apparently not > here for > the same reasons. He readily attacks Protestant views and argues > LDS > theology. It has revealed much about LDS theology that we never > learned > from you. Surely you must understand that we also find it > interesting to > learn about LDS theology just as you find it interesting to learn > about > mainstream Christianity theology. Therefore, we are going to quiz > you and > challenge you on LDS theology to learn how you can possibly put > trust in a > man like Joseph Smith. > > Dave H wrote: > > I'm rather surprised that you might expect me to leave > > it simply because you think it's wrong. > > I think if you read this book by Larson, you might leave the LDS > church. > Either that, or you would take the position of Ferguson that while > the > Mormon church is promoting a hoax, it is the best fraternity around > and > there are plenty of reasons to stay in it even if it is all a fraud. > > Dave H wrote: > > You on the other hand are always looking for > > the contradiction and read his (and mine too) > > posts in a negative light trying to frame them > > opposite of your Protestant background. So > > you are bending over backwards trying to make > > every comment an issue to dispute. > > I think you have a valid point here. That is done far too often in > this > forum. It would be better if we all tried to understand one > another. > > DAVEH: > > Many things (theological/doctrinal) that seem so > > obvious to me (LDS) are completely foreign to > > you (Protestants). E.g., the pre-mortal existence. > > I've often wondered why Protestants (and RCC > > for that matter) fail to appreciate things like the > > pre-mortal existence. > > This doctrine of pre-mortal existence was taught in the early second > century > by men like Justin Martyr, and especially Origen. Jews, especially > the > kabbalists, taught about it too. It was not until the sixth century > when > the Council of Constantinople condemned it. For the most part, I > think in > modern times we put so much stock on the Bible and what it teaches, > most > Protestants are simply reluctant to consider seriously ideas that > have their > origin in viewpoints outside of the Bible. It is simple enough for > us to > consider that our existence started at birth and we see little > reason for > challenging that assumption. Even today, I do not understand why > this view > is so important to you. It seems to be somewhat irrelevant to me. > > Dave H wrote: > > Most LDS folks assume that most Protestants > > believe the Trinity is represented by one entity > > (whether it be our Heavenly Father, Jesus or the > > Holy Ghost) as being the same being/entity/person. > > Obviously, LDS folks are being misinformed by their leaders, which > stregthens our viewpoint that they brainwash their members with > falsehood. > > DaveH wrote: > > To us, that seems a paradox when confronted with > > passages that indicate they are separate > > beings/entities/persons. > > As it ought to, which is why the Trinity doctrine seeks to explain > that they > are three persons yet one Godhead. > > DaveH wrote: > > When I/we read it, it seems a mumble-jumble of > > convoluted theological concepts designed to confuse > > rather than explain the nature of the Godhead. > > That's because you have been misinformed from the start what the > Trinity > doctrine teaches, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have been > misinformed about it. When I explained the Trinity to Jeff when he > was > here, he said it was the same concept of the Godhead that he had. > His only > confusion was whether or not what I was telling him the truth about > what the > Trinity doctrine was. > > DaveH wrote: > > Trying to understand the T-Doctrine from LDS > > sources is seemingly futile, as we tend to all wonder > > what it means. I doubt that any LDS person really > > comprehends it or can explain it. > > And this is frustrated further by many Protestants and Roman > Catholics who > hold to the viewpoint that the Trinity is a mystery that nobody > fully > understands. Mainstream Christianity has the viewpoint that some > matters > will always be viewed through a glass darkly and not have full and > clear > explanation. In other words, there are mysteries that cannot be > explained > with words. > > DaveH wrote: > > Even after discussing it with other TTers for 3 years > > now, I don't think I understand it enough to really > > explain it to another person. > > I hope you are least understand enough to say that the Trinity > teaches that > there are three persons in Godhead. > > DaveH wrote: > > Reading anti-Mormon literature fails to convey a > > solid understanding of what we believe. > > There are different types of anti-Mormon literature. Some of it is > blind to > what Mormonism actually believes. I agree with you on that. > However, there > is a lot of anti-Mormon literature written by men who were good > Mormons, who > truly understand Mormon belief. You should not dismiss their > testimony > without even considering it just because they are no longer Mormons. > They > might have very legitimate reasons for why they are no longer > Mormons. > > DaveH wrote: > > I can certainly read LDS related material which tries > > to explain Protestant theology, and I can ask other > > LDS folks. But I never feel I'm getting a good > > understanding researching it from the LDS perspective. > > I am much more comfortable seeking out a Protestant > > and asking directly. Then I don't have to worry about > > it being biased due to LDS theology. > > Good point. > > DaveH wrote: > > The problem I'm finding (which rather surprises me) is that > > getting answers about Protestantism is much more difficult > > than I would have imagined. I think there are several reasons > > for that. > > >From my perspective, there are two main reasons: > > 1. Protestantism is not a cohesive organization like the LDS. The > term > refers to a collection of Christian sects which have broken away > from Roman > Catholicism. As you know, I consider the LDS to be historically > another > Protestant sect. So you will not find some clear dogma in > Protestatism, but > rather many contradictory teachings on a wide variety of subjects. > > 2. Many Protestants view you with suspicion, thinking that you are > gathering information to help you win converts to Mormonism. I have > received many emails over the years from people being concerned that > we are > aiding and abetting your efforts to promote Mormonism. They view > you as a > spy, much like the U.S. might put spies into Iraq to learn what the > Iraqi's > think and are planning. > > DaveH wrote: > > I think there are a lot of unanswered questions > > within Protestantism. Protestantism fails to address > > many things that are so basic to LDS theology. > > If I ask a question and there is utterly no response, > > I am left to wonder if Protestantism offers no doctrinal > > position, or if there is a lot of controversy amongst > > Protestants about it, or if it doesn't make sense with > > respect to Protestant theology, or if others think I'm > > setting them up to knock them down, or........there > > are lots of things I ponder when I don't receive answers > > to my questions. > > Sometimes, Dave, you ask such basic questions that I don't know how > to > respond. It is like someone asking, "if I throw a ball up into the > air, why > does it come back down?" Sometimes questions like this are just > ignored > because they are so basic. A few other times, you ask questions > that would > take so much time to answer, that I figure I just don't have time to > get > into it. > > All things considered, please understand that Blaine does argue LDS > theology, even warning Glenn of hell because of his rejection of it. > You > take a different approach, but sometimes, because you are both > Mormons, we > deal with you guys together. > > If you guys don't want to read about the history of the Book of > Abraham, are > you at least interested in discussing it? > > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you > have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
