If the Bahai faith truly represents radical progress and maturity ...
If the Bahai faith truly represents radical progress and maturity then it should provide something which is missing from the other religions. If there is nothing missing from previous religions then they are perfectly sufficient for today. The Baha'i Faith ie the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, proclaims this to be the Day of God and His Justice. XII. Bestir yourselves, O people, in anticipation of the days of Divine justice, for the promised hour is now come. Beware lest ye fail to apprehend its import and be accounted among the erring. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 16) XIII. Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of Divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face -- the face of God Himself (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 17) It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man's understanding and the Divine Luminary which shineth forth from the day spring of the Divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith -- principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked, -- they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth. Such things are as clouds that veil the eyes of those whose inner being hath not tasted the Salsabil of detachment, nor drunk from the Kawthar of the knowledge of God. Such men, when acquainted with those circumstances, become so veiled that, without the least question, they pronounce the Manifestation of God as infidel, and sentence Him to death. You must have heard of such things taking place all down the ages, and are now observing them in these days. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 26) XVI. Say: O men! This is a matchless Day. Matchless must, likewise, be the tongue that celebrateth the praise of the Desire of all nations, and matchless the deed that aspireth to be acceptable in His sight. The whole human race hath longed for this Day, that perchance it may fulfil that which well beseemeth its station, and is worthy of its destiny. Blessed is the man whom the affairs of the world have failed to deter from recognizing Him Who is the Lord of all things. So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor. The allusions made in the Scriptures have been unfolded, and the signs recorded therein have been revealed, and the prophetic cry is continually being raised. And yet all, except such as God was pleased to guide, are bewildered in the drunkenness of their heedlessness! Witness how the world is being afflicted with a fresh calamity every day. Its tribulation is continually deepening. From the moment the Suriy-i-Ra'is (Tablet to Ra'is) was revealed until the present day, neither hath the world been tranquillized, nor have the hearts of its peoples been at rest. At one time it hath been agitated by contentions and disputes, at another it hath been convulsed by wars, and fallen a victim to inveterate diseases. Its sickness is approaching the stage of utter hopelessness, inasmuch as the true Physician is debarred from administering the remedy, whilst unskilled practitioners are regarded with favor, and are accorded full freedom to act. ...The dust of sedition hath clouded the hearts of men, and blinded their eyes. Erelong, they will perceive the consequences of what their hands have wrought in the Day of God. Thus warneth you He Who is the All-Informed, as bidden by One Who is the Most Powerful, the Almighty. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 39) LXX. The world's equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind's ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System -- the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
"We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38)" G: I don't think it gives positive support, they aren't even mentioned or implied. And in order to harmonize it you have to qualify "anything" to a certain degree... ...that's what you are claiming because of the Bahai writings. All I'm saying is that the particular passage in the Quran doesn't say that.M: There is no need to mention them directly in this verse, since their merit stands on their Own persons and their Own writings. They have reproduced texts equal to the Revelation of the Qur'an. After this is accepted, then Qur'an 6:38 becomes clear. M: The Christian-Islamdialogue perfectly parallels this phenomenon. The Bible does not directly name Muhammad as the 'Comforter'to the Christian's satisfaction. It is the Prophet Muhammad's life and Revelation that first prove who he is. After the proof for Muhammad is solidified based on his own merits, it is clear as Aquafina to the Muslim that the 'Comforter' is a reference to Muhammad. Gilberto: Yes. I actually thought the Bahai writings agreed on this point. Don't the Bahai writings affirm that Muhammad is the Comforter promised by Jesus and/or the Prophet Like Unto Moses mentioned in Deuteronomy? M: The Baha'i writings do agree that the 'Comforter' is Muhammad. But the Christians do not agree that Muhammad is the Comforter. The Christians are obviously mistaken. --- Similarly, although the Baha'i Writings say that the Lord of Qur'an 6:28 is Baha'u'llah, Muslims do not agree. Do you see that history is repeating itself? G: I agree that people aren't always prepared to hear what God is saying. that is true. But what I'm saying is that those truths actually *are* in the Quran in some form. It's not left out. In particular, because the Quran itself says "We did not leave anything out of this Book"... Firstly I don't know of any Christians who have made this same argument with regard to Islam. There are many arguments I've heard from Christians against Islam (usually involving slandering Muhammad or Islamic teachings somehow) but I've never heard the above. Secondly, the argument I"m making doesn't say to reject future religious figures but just that they are unnecessary. M: Let me lay it out for you graphically, so you can see where I am coming from, that you are making the same exact arguments against Baha'u'llah that Christians make against Prophet Muhammad. Christian belief based on Christian Holy Text-- 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.'Christian conclusion-- Muhammad is wrong because there is no need for anyone after Christ. Muslim belief based on Muslim Holy Text (Qur'an) -- 'We did not leave anything out of this Book'.Muslim conclusion -- Baha'u'llah is wrong because there is no need for another book after Qur'an. Gilberto: If the doctrine (that there is a "Days of the Lord" when each Manifestation comes) is true, I don't think there is anything which would make it hard to understand. M: You yourself prove that it is hard to understand, since someone as smart as you cannot understand and accept it. :) I think that it is only the Qur'anic emphasis on the Oneness of God, over the last 1000 years, that makes this (that there is a "Days of the Lord" when each Manifestation comes) come into correct perspective. Without the Qur'an, people would think that the Manifestation is the incarnation of the Essence of God. Gilberto: But you didn't explain anything. You just asserted it was true. But ifyou look at the Quran something which is supposed to happen during judgement day is that they were supposed to be paid back for their deeds. So how did that happen when the Bab came? And then again with Bahaullah? M: "Do men think when they say We believe they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?"[Quran 29:2.] Gilberto: Ok, that [J: Just as the explanations you give about the perfection of the Qur'an are convincing evidence for the Muslim but not the Christian and Jew.] doesn't make them right or me wrong. M: Exactly my point. You have to base it on the Writings and Person of Baha'u'llah. Read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and tell me that they are not equal to the Revelation of the Qur'an. "This Day is indeed an infinitely mighty Day, for in it the Divine Tree proclaimeth from eternity unto eternity, 'Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me.' " The Bayan 8:9 Gilberto: So in the Bahai writings the "divine tree" stands for Muhammad specifically? M: Yes, ir a reference specifically to the Manifestation of God. Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah are Manifestations of God in the Baha'i view, so this statement may be made by any one of them. The Manifestations of God are One. This specific Day is 'infinitely mighty' because *only now* does the Divine Tree proclaim this statement ['Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me.] clearly and boldly. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more.
Re: If the Bahai faith truly represents radical progress and maturity
I believe the Baha'i version of the "Golden Rule" is significantly different, although I notice a similar Qur'anic reference to the same concept in a more specific context: Charity is pleasing and praiseworthy in the sight of God and is regarded as a prince among goodly deeds. Consider ye and call to mind that which the All-Merciful hath revealed in the Qur'an: `They prefer them before themselves, though poverty be their own lot. And with such as are preserved from their own covetousness shall it be well.'(1) Viewed in this light, the blessed utterance above is, in truth, the day-star of utterances. Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself. Verily, such a man is reckoned, by virtue of the Will of God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, with the people of Baha who dwell in the Crimson Ark. (Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 71) Don Calkins wrote: At 11:39 PM -0500 1/9/05, Gilberto Simpson wrote: iIf the Bahai faith truly represents radical progress and maturity then it should provide something which is missing from the other religions. If there is nothing missing from previous religions then they are perfectly sufficient for today. Of course. And it is an explicit lesser Covenant, which defends against divisiveness, and the Baha'i administration, which, according to Shoghi Effendi, is a "pattern for future society." These are the *only* new teachings in the Faith. Everything else is a re-statement of the principles enunciated by the religions of the past. (see the Baha'u'llah's intro to the Hidden Words and then re-read them in that light.) Note that the Bible (Revelations) states that at this time, the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, there will be a new heaven and a new earth for the old heaven and earth have passed away. The new heaven, religion, will, for the first time in known history, be characterized by unity, a lack of division. The new earth, civil society, will be run by inidividuals selected by the masses on the basis of the criteria delineated by Shoghi Effendi - individual spiritual development, a history of service to mankind, and a critical mind. Along with beginning to implement these teachings, we are also called to develop the spiritual princilples of previous religions, such as humility and service, to a degree unknown by them. This will be a major change in how society functions. Don C He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/05 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
Dear John, Your previous post was edited in an odd way. Certain comments were left out and I think it was a little unclear what arguments/comments were being responded to. I'll try to clarify. On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 06:59:03 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38) [Then you had claimed this verse supports the stations of the Bab and Bahaullah] G: I don't think it gives positive support, they [the Bab and Bahaullah] aren't even mentioned or implied. [...] All I'm saying is that the particular passage in the Quran doesn't say that. [Then you had asked me about whether there were Bible verses refering to Muhammad. And I had suggested that this was affirmed in the Bahai writings] M: The Christian-Islam dialogue perfectly parallels this phenomenon. The Bible does not directly name Muhammad as the 'Comforter' to the Christian's satisfaction. It is the Prophet Muhammad's life and Revelation that first prove who he is. After the proof for Muhammad is solidified based on his own merits, it is clear as Aquafina to the Muslim that the 'Comforter' is a reference to Muhammad. [This yes was to an earlier comment (When you rhetorically asked if there were references to Muhammad in the Bible), not to the above] Gilberto: Yes. I actually thought the Bahai writings agreed on this point. Don't the Bahai writings affirm that Muhammad is the Comforter promised by Jesus and/or the Prophet Like Unto Moses mentioned in Deuteronomy? M: The Baha'i writings do agree that the 'Comforter' is Muhammad. But the Christians do not agree that Muhammad is the Comforter. The Christians are obviously mistaken. --- Similarly, although the Baha'i Writings say that the Lord of Qur'an 6:28 is Baha'u'llah, Muslims do not agree. Do you see that history is repeating itself? At least from my perspective, it feels like there is an aspect of this which isn't being appreciated. There are ALOT of religions in the world. Even today, there are many different groups claiming to be led by the mahdi or his successors, or the second coming of christ, or the latest installation of God's religion. From the Moonies, to the Branch Davidians, to the Matreya followers, to the Ahmadiya, or the Ansarullah, or the Nation of Islam, or the Cao Dai people etc. They all have at least a certain minimal amount of plausibility or else they wouldn't attract any followers. From your perspective, the Bab and Bahaullah are obviously the real thing but from my perspective there are alot of people making similar claims and they all can't be true. So you seem to think that accepting the Bahai faith is just a simple matter of saying yes to God. But from my perspective that's not it at all. Yes to one thing on some level implies no to the other mutually exclusive things. And I would suggest that Bahais don't seem to be very worried about all those other figures they are implicitly saying no to. G: I agree that people aren't always prepared to hear what God is saying. that is true. But what I'm saying is that those truths actually *are* in the Quran in some form. It's not left out. In particular, because the Quran itself says We did not leave anything out of this Book... Firstly I don't know of any Christians who have made this same argument with regard to Islam. There are many arguments I've heard from Christians against Islam (usually involving slandering Muhammad or Islamic teachings somehow) but I've never heard the above. Secondly, the argument Im making doesn't say to reject future religious figures but just that they are unnecessary. M: Let me lay it out for you graphically, so you can see where I am coming from, that you are making the same exact arguments against Baha'u'llah that Christians make against Prophet Muhammad. G: You may this is strange but I don't think I've really been making arguments *against* Bahaullah. I don't think I've slandered him, said bad things about him, in any way. (If I have, please point it out to me so that if you are offended I can apologize) G: What I think I have been doing is arguing against what seems to me Bahai belief in the incompleteness, insufficiency and inferiority of Islam. Christian belief based on Christian Holy Text-- 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.' Christian conclusion-- Muhammad is wrong because there is no need for anyone after Christ. Muslim belief based on Muslim Holy Text (Qur'an) -- 'We did not leave anything out of this Book'. Muslim conclusion -- Baha'u'llah is wrong because there is no need for another book after Qur'an. Gilberto: [Quran 2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
Hi, Gilberto, At 10:30 AM 1/10/2005, you wrote: And I would suggest that Bahais don't seem to be very worried about all those other figures they are implicitly saying no to. In one sense, none of that matters. What God expects of His servants is to recognize His Messenger in the age He appears. Other claimants to a title may be inspired or have a particular spiritual function to perform. God only knows. As I said before, I accept that these individuals have whatever name or position they claim in the context of their structurization or socially constructed paradigm. It is not mine to judge whether God is using them for some purpose. Therefore, while I may not accept the messianic legitimacy of other religious or spiritual leaders outside their respective narratives, I am really not saying no to them. I am saying yes to the One I have recognized as God's most recent Prophet. Whether other people have a similar response to Baha'u'llah is, in my view, a matter of personal investigation. Perhaps one of the important implications of the Baha'i principle of non-proselytization, or the Islamic no compulsion in religion, is that no one can make this determination for anyone else. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:02:22 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 10:30 AM 1/10/2005, you wrote: And I would suggest that Bahais don't seem to be very worried about all those other figures they are implicitly saying no to. In one sense, none of that matters. What God expects of His servants is to recognize His Messenger in the age He appears. Other claimants to a title may be inspired or have a particular spiritual function to perform. God only knows. But even Iblis and the Dajjal have a particular spiritual function, no? As I said before, I accept that these individuals have whatever name or position they claim in the context of their structurization or socially constructed paradigm. It is not mine to judge whether God is using them for some purpose. I think that's an idea that I have a hard time getting my head around. I mean, consider the fact that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad say that he was the Mahdi. The Nation of Islam says that Fard Muhammad was the Mahdi. In the late 1800s in Sudan there arose a leader who was considered to be the Mahdi (I think the followers of Malachi Z. York still follow the claim). And that one claiming to be Maitreya associated with Share International also claims to be the Mahdi. So there are all these claims. Aren't they mutually exclusive? In what sense can you accept all the above, while on top of that saying that the Bab (another title, in reality) really is the Mahdi? Do you accept all the claims equally or is one more real than the other? And isn't it possible for someone to claim to be the Mahdi, have a bunch of people believe him (or her) but then be lying or mistaken? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
G: Even today, there are many different groups claiming to be ledby the mahdi or his successors, or the second coming of christ, or thelatest installation of God's religion. From the Moonies, to the BranchDavidians, to the Matreya followers, to the Ahmadiya, or theAnsarullah, or the Nation of Islam, or the Cao Dai people etc. M: Just as it was clear that Jesus was the real thing among his many competitors, and Muhammad in his day, it is clearbased onthe Writings of Baha'u'llah that these Writings are the only Ones equal to the Qur'an in every criteria. --G: What I think I have been doing is arguing against what seems to meBahai belief in the incompleteness, insufficiency and inferiority ofIslam. M: No where has the blanket statement been made that Islam is incomplete, insufficient, andinferior. On the other hand! It is complete, sufficient, and the Proof of God among the people. Only its time has expired because the Most Great Judgement is here. G: If a well-intentioned monotheistic Christian had trouble seeing pastthe stereotypes and prejudices of their background to recognizingMuhammad and said Christianity was a sufficient guide for them, Iwould actually not object to that person as much as you seem to think. M: And on the same grounds, my objectionsin this forumsare a bit exaggerated, since you are a well-intentioned monotheist Muslim. G: It is totally possible that he is one of those who beleives in God, the last day, and does good. Maybe even Bahias can fit into the same category even if they aren't People of the Book. M: And obviously, the difference between the Baha'is and the Presbytarians (who acknowledge the humanity of Christ), is that the Baha'is are informing you that the Last Day is here and you are being Judged/Tested by the Lord. We Baha'is are not acknowledging what you already believe. G: And again, I haven't dwelt on whether or not Bahaullah is wrong, butfocused on whether Islam is sufficient. M: Fair enough. It is an important distinction, yes.--- G: People are always being tested. All the time. Every day. If you wantedto say that according to your metaphorical understanding judgement dayis happening all the time with everyone, I actually don't think Iwould object. In fact just yesterday I was listening to a CD from atalk by a Shadhili teacher who was saying something similar... thatJudgement Day can be thought of as an individual spiritual event. M: No, I am not talking about the Lesser Judgement, which is true as the Shadhili teacher described. I am refering to the Most Great Judgement Day foretold by all the Prophets. This is Baha'u'llah claims. It is not a light claim to make, and therefore, the Muslim divines of his time persecuted Him and His followers, because it is such a bold statement. G: But then if Judgement Day happens all the time the coming of the Bab and Bahaullah isn't going to be special.M: Don't get me wrong, there are different levels of Judgement. The appearance of each Manifestationmaybe considered as a Great Judgement Day. But the Most Great Judgement Daydid only happen once, with the coming of the Twin Manifestations Bab and Baha'u'llah. It was They who clarified thatGreat Judgement Days didhappen over and over with the coming of each Manifestation, something which was not apparent at the time of Their coming. Further, Muhammad ended the'Cycle of Prophet',and we are now in the 'Cycle of Fullfillment' (i.e.'the Most GreatJudgement Day foretold by all the Prophets'.) Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! What will yours do? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
Hi, Gilberto, At 11:49 AM 1/10/2005, you wrote: But even Iblis and the Dajjal have a particular spiritual function, no?, For those who believe in the devil and/or the anti-Christ, they have a function. A position, even an imaginary one, can perform a role (expected behavior) without having an association with an actual being. Fundamentally, I am suggesting something along the line of Kuhn's paradigmatic pragmatism. IMO, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Spiritual and scientific truths are only truths in relation to a particular divine or human paradigm or structurization (a volitional framework). So, if God's Will changes, truths may change, as well. I wrote: As I said before, I accept that these individuals have whatever name or position they claim in the context of their structurization or socially constructed paradigm. It is not mine to judge whether God is using them for some purpose. You replied: I think that's an idea that I have a hard time getting my head around. My views on structurization are fairly similar to Thomas Kuhn's paradigmatics and Harold Garfinkel's ethnomethodology. Rules, whether for God or for man, are relative. So there are all these claims. Aren't they mutually exclusive? In what sense can you accept all the above, while on top of that saying that the Bab (another title, in reality) really is the Mahdi? Messianic claims are mutually exclusive if one exports them from their paradigms. Do you accept all the claims equally or is one more real than the other? And isn't it possible for someone to claim to be the Mahdi, have a bunch of people believe him (or her) but then be lying or mistaken? I accept all of their claims equally. However, I am not asserting a divine involvement with all of them. (How would I know?) I am simply affirming the particularity of their paradigms. As I said before, whether I regard them as seers or inspired, and to what degree, is a separate issue. For instance: Not even the dramatic execution of its Herald, nor the blood-bath which, in circumstances of fiendish cruelty followed quickly in its wake in the city of Tihran, nor even the widely advertised travels of the Center of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in the West, succeeded in focusing the attention of the world and in inviting the notice of those in high places as has this latest manifestation of God's inscrutable will, this marvelous demonstration of His invincible power, this latest move in His Own Major Plan, using both the mighty and lowly as pawns in His world-shaping game, for the fulfillment of His immediate purpose and the eventual establishment of His Kingdom on earth. -- Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, pp.139-140 With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:51:59 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 11:49 AM 1/10/2005, you wrote: But even Iblis and the Dajjal have a particular spiritual function, no?, Mark: For those who believe in the devil and/or the anti-Christ, they have a function. A position, even an imaginary one, can perform a role (expected behavior) without having an association with an actual being. Gilberto: I didn't mean to invoke a discussion on whether Satan is literally real or metaphorical or something else. I just meant that at least as I understand it, the Dajjal is supposed to be a false claimant and that in fact there would be many false claimants. The Bible says something similar. You seem to almost be suggesting that any claimant with any sort of following can be true as far as they go. So it seems you are refraining from applying your paradigm in some cases. Or just being silent about it. Fundamentally, I am suggesting something along the line of Kuhn's paradigmatic pragmatism. IMO, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Spiritual and scientific truths are only truths in relation to a particular divine or human paradigm or structurization (a volitional framework). So, if God's Will changes, truths may change, as well. So there is no paradigm which is more divine than the others? I wrote: As I said before, I accept that these individuals have whatever name or position they claim in the context of their structurization or socially constructed paradigm. It is not mine to judge whether God is using them for some purpose. You replied: I think that's an idea that I have a hard time getting my head around. My views on structurization are fairly similar to Thomas Kuhn's paradigmatics and Harold Garfinkel's ethnomethodology. Rules, whether for God or for man, are relative. Gilberto: So there are all these claims. Aren't they mutually exclusive? In what sense can you accept all the above, while on top of that saying that the Bab (another title, in reality) really is the Mahdi? Messianic claims are mutually exclusive if one exports them from their paradigms. Do you accept all the claims equally or is one more real than the other? And isn't it possible for someone to claim to be the Mahdi, have a bunch of people believe him (or her) but then be lying or mistaken? I accept all of their claims equally. However, I am not asserting a divine involvement with all of them. (How would I know?) I am simply affirming the particularity of their paradigms. As I said before, whether I regard them as seers or inspired, and to what degree, is a separate issue. Gilberto: How is it a seperate issue? Is there ever a case when a person can claim to be a religious figure of a certain sort but thne you would say that they were ultimately false? Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Chastity
OK, This little "lookie-lu" is going to chirp in on this one because this is a subject rather near and dear to my heart. As a woman who was raised as a Biah'i during the roaring sixties and the sexy seventies, I have struggled with compliance to this recommendation with varying levels of success. Here is what I have learned through brutal experiance. I share this not to shock but to hopefully spare others the same pain. If there are any young people reading this I hope you will try to understand and set aside the perfectly normal youthful tendancy to beleive that it can't or won't happen to you. As I came into young adulthood during the seventies (pre-AIDS and post-sexual revolution)- baby it was ON. Even in the Baha'i community, I could not find a young man who was serious about complying with this law. I'm not saying they weren't out there, but lets face it - there aren't alot of us and we're pretty scattered. I came to the conclusion that although this was a laudable goal, it clearly was not realisticunder the current social conditions. The only way I was going to find amarriage partner was to get with the program. I was very angry about this andrefused multiple offers of marriage because I felt they didn't realy want me for a partner, they were just looking for a secure "regular". Someof the young men I got involved with were from cultures where if an unmarriedwoman was not a virgin, she was anybodies meat. This really pissed me off. Someof these young men were so aggr! essive that they would have faced criminal charges if I had not decided that it was more important to protect the reputation of the Faith than to hold them accountable. (The Baha'i community was NOT consulted - it wasn't any of their bussiness) Thepain grew, I became increasingly angry. The anger turned inward, I was eaten up with shame and fury. I rebelled against this Baha-u-llah who would place me in this messed up position without an option that I could accept. This led to me going inactive, diving into the culture around me, I quickly got into the party scene. I found releif for my pain in drugs and alchohol. I knew that this was also recommended against but frankly, at this point, I could not stand this world as I was experiencing it. I had to find releif or kill myself (I'm not exagerrating here - I thought about suicide ALOT.). I looked at the options - and made a decision. Suicide was rather permenant- and besides the idea of facing God given the spiritual condition I was in scared me half to death. As it came to pass, alchoholism and drug addiction soon had me by the throat. I couldn't get far enough away from this rotten world and the people in it. I hated being the person I had become and my life was a disaster. Fast forward... I got into a 12 step program in the late 80s. By the grace of God I have come a long way since then. I'm currently in the process of a divorce because although I had no difficulty being monogamous (Thank-You God) my husband developed sex addiction with such severity that he became unemployable and completely dependant as the result of the severe depression experianced as a result of his addicition and it's consequences. He ended up spending over a month in a double lock down psychiatric unit on suicide watch. We had no children, fertility counselling indicated we had both been damaged by chlamidia (no symptoms) this disease is responsible for a significant percentage of fertility problems. I also had to have surgery on my cervex as the the result of HPV (Human Papilloma Virus) which is responsible over 90% of cervical cancer. This lovely little 'sleeper' not only has no symptoms, it can't even be treated for - it's a retro-virus. It sleeps until it decides to wake up. This is why women have PAP smears. A man has relations when he's a hot 18 with some little wild thing (whoops) and ends up giving his future wife a disease which could kill her and will probably mark and end to her child bearing. I am having great difficulty complying with the 'year of patience'. I'm not real disiplined in this area. But hey - I'm OK so far. Lots and lots of prayer!!! I have only managed by being down right paranoid about the situations I allow my self to be in. I won't allow myself to be alone in the same room with someone who happens to be male. I don't care if they're married, eighty years old, in a wheel chair, or even gay. It's a blanket rule. I still struggle with the idea that I won't have an option, so far as finding another suitable partner without violating the chastity laws. We shall see what we shall see. May God have mercy on us all, Sheila "Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, David,Looking at the passage, the Guardian, through his secretary, didn't say anything about chastity *before* marriage as "the only way to a happy and successful marital life." He said that chastity was "only way to a happy and successful marital life."Chastity, or sexual purity, is not only, from a Baha'i perspective, an
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
In a message dated 1/10/2005 12:19:44 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So there are all these claims. Aren't they mutually exclusive? In whatsense can you accept all the above, while on top of that saying thatthe Bab (another title, in reality) really is the Mahdi? Do you acceptall the claims equally or is one more real than the other? And isn'tit possible for someone to claim to be the Mahdi, have a bunch ofpeople believe him (or her) but then be lying or mistaken? If the Bab was indeed Who He said He was, and He truly said that He Whom God Will Make Manifest would come quickly (Baha`u'llah) and Baha`u'llah says quite clearly that no other Manifestation will apear for a thousand years; then how can we put credence in the other claimants? Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:15:39 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G: Even today, there are many different groups claiming to be led by the mahdi or his successors, or the second coming of christ, or the latest installation of God's religion. From the Moonies, to the Branch Davidians, to the Matreya followers, to the Ahmadiya, or the Ansarullah, or the Nation of Islam, or the Cao Dai people etc. M: Just as it was clear that Jesus was the real thing among his many competitors, and Muhammad in his day, it is clear based on the Writings of Baha'u'llah that these Writings are the only Ones equal to the Qur'an in every criteria. I'm actually *really* sympathetic to religious diversity. I don't think the truth is always obvious. Sometimes it takes time to see past all the obstacles which can get in the way. G: What I think I have been doing is arguing against what seems to me Bahai belief in the incompleteness, insufficiency and inferiority of Islam. M: No where has the blanket statement been made that Islam is incomplete, insufficient, and inferior. Not in so many words, but it pretty clearly is believed and taught by implication. G: If a well-intentioned monotheistic Christian had trouble seeing past the stereotypes and prejudices of their background to recognizing Muhammad and said Christianity was a sufficient guide for them, I would actually not object to that person as much as you seem to think. M: And on the same grounds, my objections in this forums are a bit exaggerated, since you are a well-intentioned monotheist Muslim. So what are you trying to say? It seems like your position is changing. G: It is totally possible that he [the Presbyterian minister I was talking about] is one of those who beleives in God, the last day, and does good. Maybe even Bahias can fit into the same category even if they aren't People of the Book. M: And obviously, the difference between the Baha'is and the Presbytarians (who acknowledge the humanity of Christ), is that the Baha'is are informing you that the Last Day is here and you are being Judged/Tested by the Lord. We Baha'is are not acknowledging what you already believe. I'm not following you again. What are you trying to say? I don't know why you would think the above is obvious. It seems like you were trying to make an analogy earlier between the relation between Christians and Muslims and the relation between Muslims and Bahais. I just think that there are difficulties with that argument because there are aspects where the cases aren't perfectly parallel. G: And again, I haven't dwelt on whether or not Bahaullah is wrong, but focused on whether Islam is sufficient. M: Fair enough. It is an important distinction, yes. --- G: People are always being tested. All the time. Every day. If you wanted to say that according to your metaphorical understanding judgement day is happening all the time with everyone, I actually don't think I would object. In fact just yesterday I was listening to a CD from a talk by a Shadhili teacher who was saying something similar... that Judgement Day can be thought of as an individual spiritual event. M: No, I am not talking about the Lesser Judgement, which is true as the Shadhili teacher described. I am refering to the Most Great Judgement Day foretold by all the Prophets. G: In the Quran when it talks about judgement day, one aspect So there are at least three kinds of judgements we havebeen talking about. One one be some kind of individual constant judgement day that every individual goes through. There is the Bahai idea that every new Manifestation ushers in a judgement day for the previous dispensation. And now you seem to be saying that there is a Most Great Judagement day, is this unique? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Rumi Prophet Muhammad - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
Gilberto, I challenge you to read the writing of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and compare themto the writings of Baha'u'llah. Mirza Ghulam Ahmadmay even bea great personbecause he hasmade an impact on 10 million Muslims around the world, like a philosopher, a great reformer. However, his writings are comparable neither to the Qur'an nor to the Writings of Baha'u'llah. Forget about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad for a moment. Take a look at the Poet Jalal ad-Din Rumi. A great man, right? Can you compare himto Prophet Muhammad? Why or why not? Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:54:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/10/2005 2:49:47 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you can easily dismiss the claims of all those groups (and others not mentioned) on the grounds that the 1000 year clock hasn't buzzed yet then it sounds alot like the typical accusations Bahais make about Muslim consideration of Bahai claims. Scott: Most muslim claims deny the possibility of another Prophet. Baha`u'llah does not do that. Gilberto: Yes, but Muslims (especially Sufis) are wiling to permit the continuance of other kinds of figures which the Bahais are not willing to.l He promises there will indeed be another in due time. Due time is defined very strictly by Baha`u'llah. I have seen the web sites about Maitreyah. Personally I think they are ludicrous. I would have considered them ludicrous before I was a Baha, I think. I think there are many claims made by many religions which are ludicrous. Ahmadiyyih claims seem to me to be very in synch with Baha`i precewpts, but they lack the presence of a clear Manifestation of God to authenticate them. What do you mean by that? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had a large body of writings. He claimed to be the Mahdi and the second coming. He claimed to fulfill prophecy. According to one Ahmadi I talked to there were even signs in the heaven which foretold his coming. (something involving eclipses). I think they even have an order of succession and a living khalifah Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Rumi Prophet Muhammad - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:35:17 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forget about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad for a moment. Take a look at the Poet Jalal ad-Din Rumi. A great man, right? Can you compare him to Prophet Muhammad? Why or why not? But the difference between Rumi and Bahaullah is that as a Muslim, it is possible to accept the greatness of Rumi and he fits into and enriches an Islamic paradigm. He was a Muslim, and taught his followers to be better Muslims. There isn't any conflict with accepting Islam and Rumi. The same can be said of the other many saintly charismatic figures in Islamic history. Some of them may have been eccentric or iconoclastic, But fundamentally they were part of the same spiritual universe. But since Bahai teachings are DIScontinuous with and actually violate Islamic principles, then accepting Bahaullah means rejecting Islam. Even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is similarly problematic but nowhere near as extreme. They still call themselves Muslims, they substantially follow the same Shariah as sunnis, and at least one of the major branches are actually careful not to call Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a prophet. My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Rumi Prophet Muhammad - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
Gilberto, By the way, thanks for your time because these conversations have been a learning experience for me. --- But the difference between Rumi and Bahaullah is that as a Muslim, itis possible to accept the greatness of Rumi and he fits into andenriches an Islamic paradigm. He was a Muslim, and taught hisfollowers to be better Muslims. There isn't any conflict withaccepting Islam and Rumi.The same can be said of the other many saintly charismatic figures inIslamic history. Some of them may have been eccentric or iconoclastic,But fundamentally they were part of the same spiritual universe.But since Bahai teachings are DIScontinuous with and actually violateIslamic principles, then accepting Bahaullah means rejecting Islam.Even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is similarly problematic but nowhere near asextreme. They still call themselves Muslims, they substantially followthe same Shariah as sunnis, and at least one of the major branches areactually careful not to call Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a prophet. Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
In a message dated 1/10/2005 3:20:40 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What do you mean by that? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had a large body ofwritings. He claimed to be the Mahdi and the second coming. He claimedto fulfill prophecy. According to one Ahmadi I talked to there wereeven signs in the heaven which foretold his coming. (somethinginvolving eclipses). I think they even have an order of succession anda living "khalifah" Claims can be made. One must test them. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
Gilberto, At 01:49 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote: I didn't mean to invoke a discussion on whether Satan is literally real or metaphorical or something else. I just meant that at least as I understand it, the Dajjal is supposed to be a false claimant and that in fact there would be many false claimants. The Bible says something similar. There are similar statements made in the Baha'i texts. You seem to almost be suggesting that any claimant with any sort of following can be true as far as they go. So it seems you are refraining from applying your paradigm in some cases. Or just being silent about it. Let me explain it another way: I am saying that the assertions made by adherents of the paradigm of each religion (however defined) needs to be accepted in its own relative context. My view is fairly close to Max Weber's concept of Verstehen, i.e., understanding the Weltanschauung (worldview) of those one is studying. The difference is I am saying that truth claims cannot be separated from paradigms. So there is no paradigm which is more divine than the others? I am not making any judgments about divinity apart from the paradigm. Now, when I look at the different paradigms *as a Baha'i* (not as a sociologist of religion), I may, subjectively, regard some paradigms, and their developers (or founders), as more inspired than others. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
Hi, Gilberto, Sorry, I forgot to respond to your last paragraph. I wrote: I accept all of their claims equally. However, I am not asserting a divine involvement with all of them. (How would I know?) I am simply affirming the particularity of their paradigms. As I said before, whether I regard them as seers or inspired, and to what degree, is a separate issue. You replied: How is it a seperate issue? Is there ever a case when a person can claim to be a religious figure of a certain sort but thne you would say that they were ultimately false? Because I am speaking as a sociologist of religion, not as a Baha'i. If I were speaking as a Baha'i, I might meditate on whether a particular person was inspired. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:37:59 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/10/2005 3:20:40 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: Yes, but Muslims (especially Sufis) are wiling to permit the continuance of other kinds of figures which the Bahais are not willing to. Scott: Saints and such will arise. They are not, of themselves, manifestations of God, however. Gilberto: That's something I'm not convinced of. One book from the Shadhili tariqat which I am in the middle of reading actually talks about how the soul of the saint is a perfect mirror for the attributes of God. Even earlier Khazeh seemed to be saying that this was the main (defining?) property of a Manifestation. I think one possible unified way to look at this situation is that a manifestation is a common concept between the Bahai faith and Islam (especially among Sufis). The disagreement is that according to the Bahai faith another Manifestation won't come until the end of the 1000 years while for a certain group of Muslims these manifestations have come repeatedly and there are probably several alive today. I can recognize Maitreya, for instance as asaint, but I do not need to believe he is a Manifestation of God. I would put the Hugging Saint on that level for instance - a saint, before I would put the elusive Maitreya figure on that scale. But I do not believe that the Hugging Saint has a Revelation. The Hugging Saint posses a saintly soul and is perhaps a Perfect Human. But that does not mean Manifestation of God. So what do you think is the defining property of manifestation (not just a description or summary of what you think, but the essential definition)? And how is Manifestation different from a saintly Perfect Human (Did you read that description I posted earlier about Perfect Men?) Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
Gilberto, If I might jump in here. (I go back to work on Wednesday, and I won't be on the Internet quite as much as I am now.) At 05:55 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote: So what do you think is the defining property of manifestation (not just a description or summary of what you think, but the essential definition)? I don't think there are essential definitions, only conceptual and operational definitions. In the context of this discussion, the defining characteristic of a supreme Manifestation, or greater Prophet, is that He brings a Book and is a Lawgiver. Your description of a manifestation in Islam might come closest to the Baha'i concept of a lesser Prophet (a dependent Manifestation): - Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers. The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality. The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun. The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life. With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets. -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp.164-165 With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
G: I think one possible unifiedway to look at this situation is that a manifestation is a commonconcept between the Bahai faith and Islam (especially among Sufis).The disagreement is that according to the Bahai faith anotherManifestation won't come until the end of the 1000 years while for acertain group of Muslims these manifestations have come repeatedly andthere are probably several alive today. J:Can you give us more information on theSufis concept of Manifestation(or where I can read more about it) so I can compare it to the Baha'i concept of the Manifestation? Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Rumi Prophet Muhammad - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:53:55 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, By the way, thanks for your time because these conversations have been a learning experience for me. --- You are welcome. But the difference between Rumi and Bahaullah is that as a Muslim, it is possible to accept the greatness of Rumi and he fits into and enriches an Islamic paradigm. He was a Muslim, and taught his followers to be better Muslims. There isn't any conflict with accepting Islam and Rumi. The same can be said of the other many saintly charismatic figures in Islamic history. Some of them may have been eccentric or iconoclastic, But fundamentally they were part of the same spiritual universe. But since Bahai teachings are DIScontinuous with and actually violate Islamic principles, then accepting Bahaullah means rejecting Islam. Even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is similarly problematic but nowhere near as extreme. They still call themselves Muslims, they substantially follow the same Shariah as sunnis, and at least one of the major branches are actually careful not to call Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a prophet. Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Chastity
Hi, Sheila. Since your message was sort of a response to what I had written to David, I have been thinking of whether I had anything to add. I have looked into the twelve-step movement as a quasi-religious phenomenon, a second-generation offshoot from Lutheranism (via the Oxford movement, now called Initiatives of Change), but my first-hand knowledge of it is pretty much limited to attending a CoDA meeting with a former girlfriend. I will add you to my prayer list. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:57:45 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 05:55 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote: So what do you think is the defining property of manifestation (not just a description or summary of what you think, but the essential definition)? I don't think there are essential definitions, only conceptual and operational definitions. In the context of this discussion, the defining characteristic of a supreme Manifestation, or greater Prophet, is that He brings a Book and is a Lawgiver. Your description of a manifestation in Islam might come closest to the Baha'i concept of a lesser Prophet (a dependent Manifestation): Are dependent Manifestations also ruled out during the 1000 years? I seem to recall banned any new person claiming to have revelation. I don't remember it only limiting independent manifestations. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
The appearance of dependent Manifestations prior to the next Independent Manifestation are, in my view, ruled out by a different verse -- the closing verse of the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, in which He states to turn to the Center of the Cause (the Guardian) and the Universal House of Justice, and nowhere else. Brent, I think that perhaps many of those equal to Lesser Prophets may well be acknowledged in the institution of the learned, the Continental Counsellors, appointed by the House of Justice. Although that's not to say that all Counsellors equal Lesser Prophets. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:26:25 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 08:07 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote: Are dependent Manifestations also ruled out during the 1000 years? Yes. However, `Abdu'l-Baha wrote: The station which he who hath truly recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one ordained for such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as Manifestations `endowed with constancy.' - cited: Shoghi Effendi, World Order of Baha'u'llah, p.111 That's kind of interesting. It's reminiscent of a hadith. 'Ulama ummatee ka-anbiyya Bani Isra'il The Scholars [Knowers] of my Nation are like the prophets of the Children of Israel My own understanding of that statement has been that a person can reach the spiritual station, or status, of a dependent Manifestation (following and promoting the teachings of the supreme Manifestation) without actually being one. I seem to recall banned any new person claiming to have revelation. I don't remember it only limiting independent manifestations. Yes, I believe so. So I guess some of this whole question could depend on how the terms match up and how the translations are done. If the kashf or ilham given to saints is revelation then the Bahai faith would object to them before the 1000 years. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
In a message dated 1/10/2005 9:51:23 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So I guess some of this whole question could depend on how the termsmatch up and how the "translations" are done. If the kashf or ilhamgiven to saints is "revelation" then the Bahai faith would object tothem before the 1000 years. You might think of it thusly. A minor Prophet when called upon to produce authority for what he says, will go to the Major Prophet Whom he looks to. A major Prophet when call upon to produce His authority stands Himself. He is independent. While He may call upon His listeners to remember the Revelations of the Past itis only to provide reference. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:54:07 -, Brent Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are dependent Manifestations also ruled out during the 1000 years? Yes, but not by that verse from Baha'u'llah. The verse from Baha'u'llah states that no independent Manifestation, with a Revelation direct from God, will come for at least a thousand years. It does not make reference to Minor Prophets. Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying imposter. Don't the Dependent prophets also receive revelation direct from God? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:43:29 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that perhaps many of those equal to Lesser Prophets may well be acknowledged in the institution of the learned, the Continental Counsellors, appointed by the House of Justice. Although that's not to say that all Counsellors equal Lesser Prophets. Like lesser prophets? How much lesser are we talking about? Are you saying that the Continental Consellors are like Confucious or Isaiah or Solomon? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
Gilberto, At 09:58 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote: Like lesser prophets? How much lesser are we talking about? Are you saying that the Continental Consellors are like Confucious or Isaiah or Solomon? My own view is that is best not to equate, or even relate, any kind of appointment within, or by, the Baha'i administration with a person having attained the station of the Lesser Prophets. If there are such people living, and no one has any means of knowing one way or another, speculating on who or where they are can, IMO, cause all sorts of problems. Although a person might attain the station of a Lesser Prophet, they would not actually be Lesser Prophets. As Shoghi Effendi wrote through his secretary, all Prophets, Greater and Lesser, have a differently defined nature from the one God names for ordinary humans: The Prophets `regarded as One and the same person' include the Lesser Prophets as well, and not merely Those Who bring a `Book'. The station is different, but they are Prophets and Their nature thus different from that of ours. -- From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual Baha'i, February 8, 1949 (Lights of Guidance, p.499) `Abdu'l-Baha regarded Confucius as a reformer, not as a Lesser Prophet. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
Gilberto, At 09:51 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote: So I guess some of this whole question could depend on how the terms match up and how the translations are done. If the kashf or ilham given to saints is revelation then the Bahai faith would object to them before the 1000 years. It depends on how those words are defined. Generally speaking, we use the word Revelation for the communication of the Logos to man through the Prophets. Inspiration is a more general concept which can apply to anyone. However, I think it is important not to get hung up on the words. Sometimes, based on different terminologies, people can think they agree (or disagree) with each other, while perhaps the opposite is true. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:45:30 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 09:58 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote: Like lesser prophets? How much lesser are we talking about? Are you saying that the Continental Consellors are like Confucious or Isaiah or Solomon? [...] `Abdu'l-Baha regarded Confucius as a reformer, not as a Lesser Prophet. So is the idea that With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...
Ooops, hit the wrong button. On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:07:30 -0500, Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:45:30 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 09:58 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote: Like lesser prophets? How much lesser are we talking about? Are you saying that the Continental Consellors are like Confucious or Isaiah or Solomon? [...] `Abdu'l-Baha regarded Confucius as a reformer, not as a Lesser Prophet. When I look it up the issue seems confusing. Some sites critical of the Bahai faith seem to list the status of Confucius as a blatant contradiction. ] There is a talk of Abdul-Baha's which says: Blessed soulswhether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius or Muhammadwere the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light? How can we dispute the validity of Christ? This is injustice. This is a denial of reality. Man must be just. We must set aside bias and prejudice. We must abandon the imitations of ancestors and forefathers. We ourselves must investigate reality and be fair in judgement. My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Religion is a Choice and Baha'i is Good
This could be useful, especially if one can apply a more rigid notion of fulfillment of prophecy. Where you have a prophecy which clearly designated as a prophecy, and where it is clear what conditions would satisfy the prophecy and what would not. But very very very few prophecies are like that. Gilberto: This is working backward through some of the messages I flagged, but, as I already noted, I believe that the prophecy of Daniel, regarding the abomination which makes desolate is a specific one, with many specific implications, some of which I mentioned. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Responding with more affection and Sura 81 of the Holy Qur'an
Dear Janine van rooij Today you wrote: In http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43402.html Khazeh, but where in the Qur'an is the idea of the Administrative Order, i.e. the Universal House of Justice, the Local Houses of Justice, the election by blind election of the members of these Houses? Where in the Qur'an is unequivocally stated that men and women are equal? Where in the Qur'an is stated that at the moment Qur'an was revealed, we have entered into the era of the Most Great Peace? Much love, Janine You dear Janine earlier wrote on this list ** I am a Dutch Bahai of more than 20 years, finding the Bahai faith when I was 16. I live currently in Ireland, in Dublin. I have no academic qualifications, but I am interested in the study of the Bahai faith, both academically and non-academically.** You also wrote dearest Janine Without the administrative order, the Bahai faith gives out nice ideas, but lacks in a system For implementing these ideas. Religions have laws especially because God wants them to impact Society, the way we live, the way we make rules. A society cannot function without laws. The practical needs to interact with the spiritual, the spiritual needs to find practical expressions and the foremost expression of spirituality is in deeds, which then become a culture, a way of thinking, a way of relating to one another. I became a Bahai because I wanted to actively help to build up this administrative order. . Janine van rooij ** Dear Janine I would think you posed your recent question because in a reply to my brother Gilberto Simpson I [khazeh f] had written: *** Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the Holy Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES.*** That was the Background and the Iqtidarat passage is quoted in http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43297.html and http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43266.html that Passage in these two messages is the background... This is the trouble with lists and e-mails the thread becomes longer and longer and the sequence of ideas gets lost. Ro summarize dearest Janine. [I am now a temporary self-imposed break from this list so I can TRULY catch up with all my sins of omission! And pray for the sins of commission!!]. I have promised to come back when I have seen some light. I learnt a lot from Gilberto Simpson. I like him very much and I like all our friends and brothers and sisters indeed who are contributing. My initial point was something like this: Gilberto had said: Was not every thing mentioned before? This servant knew that this is a fundamental recurring question. So I quoted three verses of His holiness Baha'u'llah, the Divine Revealer today, the Lord of the Covenant today, that YES in a sense all [kull] was mentioned afore and, in a sense, ALL is made new. [All things made new as the Bible promises]. Our conversation had gone to and fro and then I sought a break.a much needed occultation as they say in Islam! But now if I do not write to you, Janine, you would think it impolite. In reply to you dearest Janine I would say Of course all the things re the Divinely Appointed Administrative system are new, are wondrous, and were not there before This is the problem. I am trying to speak in different levels. We speak one word and We mean 72 Meanings the 6th Imam [PBUH] had said. If you look at the Alpha you also believe in the Omega. But Omega is the externalization, the fulfilment, the Promise of the Alpha. If you would kindly follow my humble thought. The Faith the Beloved Shoghi Effendi said is the [Essence, the Promise, the Reconciler, and the Unifier of all the past revelations] Not only have the peoples of the earth ignored, and some of them even assailed, a Faith WHICH IS AT ONCE THE ESSENCE, THE PROMISE, THE RECONCILER, AND THE UNIFIER OF ALL RELIGIONS, but they have drifted away from their own religions, and set up on their subverted altars other gods wholly alien not only to the spirit but to the traditional forms of their ancient faiths. (Shoghi Effendi: the Promised Day is Come, Page: 112) [Emphasis added ] But in relation to your questions above at the start Yes the Holy Qur'an commands all to Justice to 'Adl. The same word we use for the Universal House of Justice Baytul'Adl. *** 016.090 YUSUFALI: God commands JUSTICE, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition. As to gender equality it is promised for the future eschatological Event namely the Advent of this day of Days. The Day of Baha'u'llah about which Sura 81 speaks 081.008 YUSUFALI: WHEN THE FEMALE (INFANT), BURIED ALIVE, IS QUESTIONED - FOR WHAT CRIME SHE WAS KILLED; This verse is seen as the beginning of female liberation. It all depends on perspective. Dearest. Perspective and opening one's heart and mind to this Revelation. You are very lucky and
Re: Chastity
Prayers help I only know a little about the history of the 12 step movement. My experiance is practical. It worked for me and that -frankly - is all I care about. It continues to work where nothing else has beeneffective. I am, in the end, a pragmatist. Theories are for those who can afford them. Sheila"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Sheila.Since your message was sort of a response to what I had written to David, I have been thinking of whether I had anything to add. I have looked into the twelve-step movement as a quasi-religious phenomenon, a second-generation offshoot from Lutheranism (via the Oxford movement, now called "Initiatives of Change"), but my first-hand knowledge of it is pretty much limited to attending a CoDA meeting with a former girlfriend.I will add you to my prayer list.With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in! the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
