date:20050112

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:09:33 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto:
  Personally, I think that if you are in a
  country where the majority of the population are religious Muslims and
  they have a good democratic-type government which respects the will of
  the people and is accountable, then Islamic values and principles
  would naturally be incorporated into the structure of the government
  and the society. And there is more than one way which that can happen
  and there is more than one way that can look like.
 
 Can you give an example of any Muslim country as you ideally define above
 today?
 

I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal.  But that's
what I would like to see other countries move towards. Secularization
in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force and
repression. So I'm wary if you are somehow holding it up as a model.

The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims and
so if you democratize and had governments which were more inclusive
and responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of places
religious leaders might have more influence in government, not less.

Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocratically
represses the Islamic parties.

http://www.religioscope.com/articles/2002/017_turkey_elect.htm

A few years back Algeria was going to have elections where everyone
knew that the Islamic party was going to win, until the military
stepped in to stop the elections.

Not that I'm an expert but it looks like a similar story can be told
in Iraq. Sistani is a popular leader whose voice is listened to by
many and its looking as if under democratic elections, and it seems
like the religious parties are popular and will have a strong role in
whatever government gets elected.

Peace

GIlberto


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I'm not sure exactly which point you are trying to make.
J: Forget it. Pretend I never wrote it.
Some of what is written doesn't necessarily ring true for me, and I'm not certainwhat other assumptions you might be making.
J:No other assumptions. Everything was layed out in the two emails.
I think there are many different differences of opinion between the typical Christian and the typical Muslim and I honestly don't think that the typical Christian'sbiggest objection to Islam is the idea of continuation of prophecy.
J:No, it is the logical conclusion that Jesus as the Son of God and Word of God does not need to be replaced. Why would God replace His own word? Same argument that Muslims make to prove the finality of the Prophet.
Before even getting to that point, there is the whole, rejecting the crucifixion, rejecting the Trinity, rejecting the deity of Christ, and top of that is the whole woman-hating terrorist stereotype to get over plus several issues on top of that before youget to the idea of scripture being continued.
J: Can you blame them? These teachings are part of their religion. Actually, I don't blame the people, I blame their religious leaders and their scholars. Also, Christians can't really use the verse in question in the way being suggested because if Jesus said ""Heaven and earth shall pass away: by My words shall not pass away." Luke 21:33 and this was intended to be some kind of cap on scripture, well, the entire New Testament seems to have been finished AFTER Jesus.
J: This is funny. From what I remember, the Qur'an was also written after the passing of the Prophet. Still, in my view, both are the Word of God.
So whatever the verse means, it shouldn't mean no more scriptures are coming, even for Christians.
J: The same must also then apply to the Qur'an. This proves your statement incorrect.
Also I'm not even sure if I would say that Muslims are saying the words of Jesus "passed away"
J: The fact that you have the Qur'an?It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a formbeyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particularculture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form ofthe scriptures we are familiar with.Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah is the Gospel is the Quran etc.Although that's just a suggestion I'm throwing out there based on theabove site.J: No response. You're line of reasoning makes me uncomfortable.It makes it seem like you arehere to propagate Islam and do not want to learn anything. Don't worry about the Baha'is, we already believe in the Holy Qur'an.

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Re: Women in West/Islam

G: I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal.
J: Itdoes appear thatnon-Muslim countries are more ideal that Muslim countries, doesn't it? Why is that? Could it be that Muslim law is not suitable for today'sWorld governance? Could it be that God sent Baha'u'llah with an administration as a guide for the people to create the ideal country?
G: But that's what I would like to see other countries move towards.
J: With the help ofGod alone can we get there. Praised be God for unveiling His Baha.
G: Secularization in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force andrepression.
J: It is funny that you are preaching the Good in Muslim countries, while Baha'is are being imprisoned, prevented from going to University, cannot get a decent job, even killed in Iran. A Baha'i cannot even practice his religion inmost Muslim countries.
G: The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims andso if you "democratize" and had governments which were more inclusiveand responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of placesreligious leaders might have more influence in government, not less.
J: How unfortunate for Baha'is if it be so.G: Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocraticallyrepresses the Islamic parties.
J: A good thing for the protection of people who are not Muslims, like Baha'is. You don't think that if Islamic parties won the election there, they would stop all Baha'i activities and overtake all Baha'i holy sites, do you? Hmm... let me think about it.
G: Sistani is a popular leader whose voice is listened to bymany and its looking as if under democratic elections, and it seemslike the religious parties are popular and will have a strong role inwhatever government gets elected.
J: Sistani would probably skin the Baha'is alive if he had the chance. I pray for a secular Iraq so that the Baha'i Pilgrimage to the House of Baha'u'llah in Baghdad may be possible. If Iran is a model, an Islamic Iraq may even tear down the Baha'i holy sites.
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Re: Women in West/Islam

2005-01-12 Thread Firouz Anaraki

Gilberto:
I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal.  But that's
what I would like to see other countries move towards. Secularization
in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force and
repression. So I'm wary if you are somehow holding it up as a model.
What is forcing Iranian People to wish for secularization? It seems to me 
that Sharia laws are very undemocratic for today's world or in other words 
Islamic laws cannot  go hand in hand with ideals of democracy. That's why we 
cannot find and will not find a just society under Islamic Sharia in this 
age. It did work well during the dispensation of Muhammad but not in 20th 
century and beyond.

Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocratically
represses the Islamic parties.
http://www.religioscope.com/articles/2002/017_turkey_elect.htm
Thanks to military in Turkey which has kept Turkey the most advanced and 
civilized Muslim country. Many Muslim clergy there would like to establish a 
Taliban like government in Turkey and revive the past Ottoman empire.

A few years back Algeria was going to have elections where everyone
knew that the Islamic party was going to win, until the military
stepped in to stop the elections.
I believe in many Muslim countries including Algeria if real democracy and 
justice exists, people don't like to join extreme Islamic militia. The 
clergy in many of Muslim countries are telling lies to their people to 
attract them to fanatic and fundamentalist aspect of Islam. Personally I am 
happy for Algeria for not having an Islamic country under Sharia.

Not that I'm an expert but it looks like a similar story can be told
in Iraq. Sistani is a popular leader whose voice is listened to by
many and its looking as if under democratic elections, and it seems
like the religious parties are popular and will have a strong role in
whatever government gets elected.
Most Shia religious parties in Iraq are supported by Iran. They want to set 
up a puppet Shiia government in Iraq. I sincerely hope that Shiia parties in 
Iraq supported by Iran could not win the election. They will create hell for 
their Sunni brothers. Sunnis in Iraq know this well and that's why the 
majority of Sunnis are boycotting the election. Actually Sistani is one of 
the few clergy who is in favor of separation of religion from politics.

regards,
Firouz
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Re: Chastity

2005-01-12 Thread Sheila Spatz

Dear Louise,
It has been my experiance that when I know better, I do better. I stand before God ready to learn a better way but I can not adhere to a code of conduct that just leaves me miserable.
Marriage was a solution for me. My husband and I enjoyed many years of a very good marriage before the disease of addiction destroyed it.
I have every intention of adhering to the adultery laws if God will grant me the strength to do so. After that, well... That's a ways down the road. Who knows, mabey God will teach me a better way. Or maybe He will provide me with more opportunities for growth.
I agree that violation of the chastity laws hurts not only me, but any and all other parties concerned. Sometimes it's a question of what is going to hurt more. I do the best I can with the tools, skills and qualities I have. I am no longer such a fool as to think I can just force myself to 'do the right thing'. It doesn't work, and I end up hurting myself. For me, I need to surrender to God's process and allow myself to be fully human, frailties and all. Trusting Him and His process to guide me toward becoming the person He would have me be.
Sheilalouise mchenry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Sheila, I always value personal experience, when people arewilling and able to make themselves vulnerable andrelate of their own experiences. Thank you for doingso, giving me therefore a glimpse into yourexperience. It has helped me a lot to read over and over againwhat is written about marriage in the Bahai writings,to help keep my urges under control. Also some shamewith regards to the times when I was not able to.These experiences have helped me to realise that nomatter how attractive sex may be or a man may be, orthe possibility of finding true love may be, violatingthe chastity rule is not worth it, because in the endI invariably feel bad about myself. much love, janine--- Sheila Spatz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: OK, This little "lookie-lu" is going to chirp!
in on
this one because this is a subject rather near and dear to my heart. As a woman who was raised as a Biah'i during the roaring sixties and the sexy seventies, I have struggled with compliance to this recommendation with varying levels of success. Here is what I have learned through brutal experiance. I share this not to shock but to hopefully spare others the same pain. If there are any young people reading this I hope you will try to understand and set aside the perfectly normal youthful tendancy to beleive that it can't or won't happen to you. As I came into young adulthood during the seventies (pre-AIDS and post-sexual revolution)- baby it was ON. Even in the Baha'i community, I could not find a young man who was serious about complying with this law. I'm not saying they weren't out there, but lets face it - there aren't a!
lot of us
and we're pretty scattered. I came to the conclusion that although this was a laudable goal, it clearly was not realistic under the current social conditions. The only way I was going to find a marriage partner was to get with the program. I was very angry about this and refused multiple offers of marriage because I felt they didn't realy want me for a partner, they were just looking for a secure "regular". Some of the young men I got involved with were from cultures where if an unmarried woman was not a virgin, she was anybodies meat. This really pissed me off. Some of these young men were so aggressive that they would have faced criminal charges if I had not decided that it ! was more important to protect the reputation of the Faith than to hold them accountable. (The Baha'i community was NOT consulted - it wasn't any of their
bussiness) The pain grew, I became increasingly angry. The anger turned inward, I was eaten up with shame and fury. I rebelled against this Baha-u-llah who would place me in this messed up position without an option that I could accept. This led to me going inactive, diving into the culture around me, I quickly got into the party scene. I found releif for my pain in drugs and alchohol. I knew that this was also recommended against but frankly, at this point, I could not stand this world as I was experiencing it. I had to find releif or kill myself (I'm not exagerrating here - I thought about suicide ALOT.). I looked at the options - and made a decision. Suicide was rather permenant- and besides the idea of facing God given the spiritual condition I was in scared me half to death. As it came to pass, alchoholism and drug addiction so!
on had me
by the throat. I couldn't get far enough away from this rotten world and the people in it. I hated being the person I had become and my life was a disaster. Fast forward... I got into a 12 step program in the late 80s. By the grace of God I have come a long way since then. I'm currently in the process of a divorce because although I had no difficulty being monogamous (Thank-You God) my husband developed sex addiction with such severity that he became

Re: Women in West/Islam

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:04:16 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 G: I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal.
 
 J: It does appear that non-Muslim countries are more ideal that Muslim
 countries, doesn't it?  Why is that? 

Because during the Age of Discovery and Exploration and during the
colonial period Western countries extracted resources and labor from
much of what is now the developing world.

 Could it be that Muslim law is not
 suitable for today's World governance?

This line of argument strikes me as really really bizzare coming from
Bahais. According to the Bahai faith, Christianity is even more out of
date and unsuitable than Islam. And Christianity is actually dying in
Europe and the people there are becoming rejecting religion more and
more. So what exactly do you think Western technological and material
advances prove? What kind of model do they point to?
Are technological and material advances ANY kind of proof of spiritual
validity anyway?

 
 G:  Secularization in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of
 force and
 repression. 
 
 J:  It is funny that you are preaching the Good in Muslim countries, while
 Baha'is are being imprisoned, prevented from going to University, cannot get
 a decent job, even killed in Iran.  A Baha'i cannot even practice his
 religion in most Muslim countries.  

And you are acting as if I think that is a good thing. The question is
how should these problems be dealt with? And you seem to think the
answer is to get rid of or at least repress Islam.
 
 G:  The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims and
 so if you democratize and had governments which were more inclusive
 and responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of places
 religious leaders might have more influence in government, not less.
 
 J:  How unfortunate for Baha'is if it be so.

The way you are conceiving the problem doesn't allow for any kind of
unity or compromise.
 
 G:  Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocratically
 represses the Islamic parties.

 J:  A good thing for the protection of people who are not Muslims, like
 Baha'is.  You don't think that if Islamic parties won the election there,
 they would stop all Baha'i activities and overtake all Baha'i holy sites, do
 you?  Hmm... let me think about it.

You are not going to get any sympathy if the way you are suggesting we
should deal with this problem by discriminating against Muslims.
Turkish women can't wear hijab in many public venues. Religious
Muslims in Turkey are weeded out from the higher ranks of the army. I
recently spoke with a Muslim friend who was with the US military in
Iraq and he was telling me how the Turkish soldiers weren't allowed to
pray in the mosques in Baghdad.

This issue comes up in different forms and its sad. In the west
democracy seems to lead towards secularism. But in the Muslim world,
democracy would lead to a greater role for Islam. And so because
Western countries don't want to see that happen, they sacrifice
spreading democracy for imposing secularism.

Peace

Gilberto
 




My people are hydroponic

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Re: Women in West/Islam

G:And Christianity is actually dying in Europe and the people there are becoming rejecting religion more and more. So what exactly do you think Western technological and material advances prove? What kind of model do they point to?Are technological and material advances ANY kind of proof of spiritualvalidity anyway?
J:Technological advances prove the vitality and power of the mind.
' "Before all else, God created the mind." From the dawn of creation, it was made to be revealed in the temple of man. ' -Abdu'l-Baha
' Consider carefully: all these highly varied phenomena, these concepts, this knowledge, these technical procedures and philosophical systems, these sciences, arts, industries and inventions--all are emanations of the HUMAN MIND. WHATEVER PEOPLE has ventured deeper into this shoreless sea, has come to EXCEL THE REST. The happiness and pride of a nation consist in this, that it should shine out like the sun in the high heaven of knowledge. "Shall they who have knowledge and they who have it not, be treated alike?"(Qur'an 39:12) ' -Abdu'l-Baha
' Have they forgotten the celebrated hadíth (Holy Tradition): Seek after knowledge, even unto China? It is certain that the people of China were, in the sight of God, among the most rejected of men, because they worshiped idols and were unmindful of the omniscient Lord. The Europeans are at least Peoples of the Book, and believers in God and specifically referred to in the sacred verse, Thou shalt certainly find those to be nearest in affection to the believers, who say, We are Christians. It is therefore quite permissible and indeed more appropriate to acquire knowledge from Christian countries. How could seeking after knowledge among the heathen be acceptable to God, and seeking it among the People of the Book be repugnant to Him? ' -Abdu'l-Baha
G: The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims and so if you "democratize" and had governments which were more inclusive and responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of places religious leaders might have more influence in government, not less. J: How unfortunate for Baha'is if it be so.G: The way you are conceiving the problem doesn't allow for any kind ofunity or compromise.
J: We would love to be in unity with the Muslims around the world. Will you and yourbrothers accept me if I told you nothing you can do will shake my belief thatBaha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Judgement? We sure accept you because we accept the Prophet Muhammad and His Book the Qur'an.

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Re: Women in West/Islam

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:47:56 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Gilberto:
  I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal.  But that's
  what I would like to see other countries move towards. Secularization
  in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force and
  repression. So I'm wary if you are somehow holding it up as a model.
 
 What is forcing Iranian People to wish for secularization? It seems to me
 that Sharia laws are very undemocratic for today's world or in other words
 Islamic laws cannot  go hand in hand with ideals of democracy. 

I don't see how there is enough information to really say that. It's
not like the secular regimes in the Middle East are bastions of
democracy either. And it is clear that in certain parts of the Muslim
world, the people there clearly want religious parties to have a
greater role in the government because they see the secular
governments as corrupt and not promoting their interests. I would
rather see people trying to promote good government in the region.
Less authoritarianism, more freedom of expression. The government
should be more accountable to their citizens. As long as that's what
you are really talking about I think that would be a good thing. But
if you don't really care about that and are trying to impose
secularism on religious populations then you are promoting oppression
of Muslims and I'd have little sympathy.

 
  Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocratically
  represses the Islamic parties.

  http://www.religioscope.com/articles/2002/017_turkey_elect.htm

 Thanks to military in Turkey which has kept Turkey the most advanced and
 civilized Muslim country. Many Muslim clergy there would like to establish a
 Taliban like government in Turkey and revive the past Ottoman empire.\

That would only work if the democratically elected representatives in
the Turkish parliament wanted to have a Taliban-like government. If a
country actually has a fair election and the Taliban win, then why
shouldn't they form a government? In any case, I think you are just
using the Taliban as a boogey-man. The religious parties weren't going
to ban music and keep people from flying kites and make the women wear
burqas.  Religious women in Turkey are still working on being allowed
to wear hijab instead of being forced not to.

 
  A few years back Algeria was going to have elections where everyone
  knew that the Islamic party was going to win, until the military
  stepped in to stop the elections.
 
 I believe in many Muslim countries including Algeria if real democracy and
 justice exists, people don't like to join extreme Islamic militia.

I think I could agree with that. I'm not trying to defend extreme
Islamic militias.

 The
 clergy in many of Muslim countries are telling lies to their people to
 attract them to fanatic and fundamentalist aspect of Islam. Personally I am
 happy for Algeria for not having an Islamic country under Sharia.


And if you were Algerian and had a chance to vote in that election
which was stopped, you would have gotten your one vote, but bulk of
the rest of the Algerians would have outvoted you and you would have a
democratic government where the Islamic political parties would have
had a strong voice.

Maybe it was just how I was taught in school or something. I learned
to respect the democratic process more than the result. I mean, if we
really believe all those pretty words about one man, one vote and
how government rests on the consent of the governed, etc.then we
should support democracy even if we don't like the result.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Women in West/Islam

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:16:33 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 G: And Christianity is actually dying in Europe and the people there are
 becoming rejecting religion more and more. So what exactly do you think
 Western technological and material advances prove? What kind of model do
 they point to?
 Are technological and material advances ANY kind of proof of spiritual
 validity anyway?

 
 J: Technological advances prove the vitality and power of the mind.
 
 ' Before all else, God created the mind. From the dawn of creation, it was
 made to be revealed in the temple of man. '   -Abdu'l-Baha

Sure,

The first thing created by God was the Intellect (Prophetic hadith)

I guess there might be a question of what kind of knowledge and what
kind of intellect is more important, And what kind of knowledge is
related to spirituality.

 
 ' Consider carefully: all these highly varied phenomena, these concepts,
 this knowledge, these technical procedures and philosophical systems, these
 sciences, arts, industries and inventions--all are emanations of the HUMAN
 MIND. WHATEVER PEOPLE has ventured deeper into this shoreless sea, has come
 to EXCEL THE REST. The happiness and pride of a nation consist in this, that
 it should shine out like the sun in the high heaven of knowledge. Shall
 they who have knowledge and they who have it not, be treated alike?(Qur'an
 39:12) '   -Abdu'l-Baha
 

(I think the Quranic reference numbers is the wrong one but yes I've
read similar things in the Quran. But again, I'm not convinced that
the primary meaning is that countries with microwave ovens and cell
phones are supposed to be spiritually more advanced than the countries
which don't.

 ' Have they forgotten the celebrated hadíth (Holy Tradition): Seek after
 knowledge, even unto China? It is certain that the people of China were, in
 the sight of God, among the most rejected of men, because they worshiped
 idols and were unmindful of the omniscient Lord.

Gilberto:
I actually wouldn't say that. Buddhism and Taoism would have been
growing in China by then and I wouldn't just want to dismiss those
beliefs as simple idolatry. I'm not saying that the hadith excludes
seek worldly secular knowledge. A Muslim should seek all kinds of
knowledge, both sacred and secular. But that's besides the point. All
I'm saying is that secular knowledge doesn't prove spiritual
superiority.


 
  G: The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims and
  so if you democratize and had governments which were more inclusive
  and responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of places
  religious leaders might have more influence in government, not less.
 
  J: How unfortunate for Baha'is if it be so.
 
 G:  The way you are conceiving the problem doesn't allow for any kind of
 unity or compromise.
 
 J:  We would love to be in unity with the Muslims around the world.  Will
 you and your brothers accept me if I told you nothing you can do will shake
 my belief that Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Judgement?  We sure
 accept you because we accept the Prophet Muhammad and His Book the Qur'an.

I can accept you as an individual regardless of what you believe. 

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Regarding membership on the Universal House of Justice

2005-01-12 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Dear Gilberto and Scott,
In an attempt to add some balance to the endless discussion 
about who determined that women should not serve on the 
Universal House of Justice; I offer the following from the 
Kitab-i-Aqdas, after your comments.

Gilberto:  The UHJ which interprets the laws excludes women, 
while there are no theological
barriers to having women be ulema (scholars) muftis (those who 
issue fatwas or legal rulings) or judges. 

SC:  To my knowledge there are no theological barriers to 
Baha'i women being scholars or participating in decisions of a 
judicial nature within the prerogatives of a Local Spiritual 
Assembly [future *Local* House of Justice]

Scott:  Actually it was a Universal House of Justice 
decision that ruled that women could not be on the UHJ.

SC:  There was no arbitrary decision on the part of the 
Universal House of Justice to exclude women.  That directive 
is from Baha'ullah, Himself...

THE TABLET OF ISHRAQAT
THE EIGHTH ISHRAQ

This passage, now written by the Pen of Glory, is accounted as 
part of the Most Holy Book: The *men* of God's House of 
Justice have been charged with the affairs of the people. 
They, in truth, are the Trustees of God among His servants and 
the daysprings of authority in His countries.  O people of 
God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is 
upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two 
pillars are the sources of life to the world. Inasmuch as for 
each day there is a new problem and for every problem an 
expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the 
House of Justice that the members thereof may act according to 
the needs and requirements of the time. They that, for the 
sake of God, arise to serve His Cause, are the recipients of 
divine inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is incumbent 
upon all to be obedient unto them. All matters of State should 
be referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must 
be observed according to that which God hath revealed in His 
Book.  (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 91)

* my asterisks

Lovingly, Sandra

Lovingly,  Sandra
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Re: Luke 21:33 the Qur'an

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:25:26 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Gilberto:
 I think there are many different differences of opinion between the typical
 Christian and the typical Muslim and I honestly don't think that the typical
 Christian's
 biggest objection to Islam is the idea of continuation of prophecy.
 
 J: No, it is the logical conclusion that Jesus as the Son of God and Word of
 God does not need to be replaced.  Why would God replace His own word?  

Gilberto:
No that's not it either.

Gilberto:
 Before even getting to that point, there is the whole, rejecting the
 crucifixion, rejecting the Trinity, rejecting the deity of Christ, and top
 of that is the whole woman-hating terrorist stereotype to get over plus
 several issues on top of that before you get to the idea of scripture being 
 continued.

 J:  Can you blame them?

Gilberto:
I'm not blaming them. I'm describing them. All I'm saying is that the
concept of finality of revelation is not as essential, or emphasized,
or as clear in Christianity as it is in Islam. It's not the most
common argument Christians have against Islam.

Gilberto:.  
 
 Also, Christians can't really use the verse in question in the way being
 suggested because if Jesus said Heaven and earth shall pass away: by My
 words shall not pass away. Luke 21:33 and this was intended to be some kind
 of cap on scripture, well, the entire New Testament seems to have been
 finished AFTER Jesus. 
 
 J:  This is funny.  From what I remember, the Qur'an was also written after
 the passing of the Prophet.

Gilberto:
Not in the same sense. The Quran was all written down on materials
before the passing of the prophet. It was recited in prayers before
the passing of the prophet. The early Muslims already had a concept of
a set of recited chapters called the Quran which was fixed before
the passing of the prophet. Everything in the Quran was spoken and in
some sense implicitly (and probably explicitly) approved before the
passing of the prophet.

The same thing can't be said about the New Testament. It's not like
Jesus went around saying and in the future according to Luke I will
say

 
 So whatever the verse means, it shouldn't mean no more scriptures are
 coming, even for Christians.
 
 J:  The same must also then apply to the Qur'an.  This proves your statement
 incorrect.
 

No. I'm not saying that the Word of the Lord will endure forever or
similar phrases imply an end to revelation anyway. It's like you are
trying to disprove an argument I'm not even making.


I would say seal of the prophets implies an end to prophethood. And
I would say that there are many different hadith which imply that
Muhammad was the last prophet and the last messenger. I don't think I
would use other parts of the Quran to make that argument.

 Also I'm not even sure if I would say that Muslims are saying the words of
 Jesus passed away
 
 J:  The fact that you have the Qur'an?

I would suggest that the essence of Jesus teachings are found in
Islam, even in the Quran.

But also, from the Islamic side there is an alternative tradition of
Jesus which is actually quite interesting and rich. There are two
books which I have with alot of good examples. One is called Jesus in
the Eyes of the Sufis and the other is more recent called The Muslim
Jesus Some of the accounts come from hadith, but they also come from
many other places. Some are reminiscent of things in the Bible but
some are not in the Bible at all (although they share something of the
same spirit).

I was reading online that one of the Bahai central figures (Abdul-Baha
I think) quoted one of these traditions. Where Jesus and his disciples
were wandering and they came across the body of a dead rotting dog.
And they all were commenting on the offensive smell. Except Jesus who
said But it's teeth are so white!

The one which is my favorite is the following:

One day as Jesus was walking through a village, some of the
inhabitants began throwing insults at him. But Jesus answered by
repeating prayers on their behalf. Later one of his disciples asked
him, Rabbi, you prayed for those people and wished them well. Why did
you not invoke a curse upon them instead? And Jesus is said to have
replied, I could only spend what I had in my purse.


http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Belief_and_Islam/bbooks.htm

 It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a form
 beyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particular
 culture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form of
 the scriptures we are familiar with.
 
 Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah is the Gospel is the Quran
 etc.
 
 Although that's just a suggestion I'm throwing out there based on the
 above site.
 
 J:  No response.  You're line of reasoning makes me uncomfortable.  It makes
 it seem like you are here to propagate Islam and do not want to learn
 anything.  Don't worry about the Baha'is, we already believe in the Holy
 Qur'an.

I

Re: Women in West/Islam

G: I guess there might be a question of what kind of knowledge and whatkind of intellect is more important, And what kind of knowledge isrelated to spirituality.
J:I would say thatreligion is necessary for the advancement of material civilization, spiritual civilization, as well as the progress of the individual.G: I think the Quranic reference numbers is the wrong one but yes I'veread similar things in the Quran. But again, I'm not convinced thatthe primary meaning is that countries with microwave ovens and cellphones are supposed to be spiritually more advanced than the countrieswhich don't.
J: Just because one is spiritual does not mean that one should through awaythe material. If the material is a substitute for God (i.e. materialism), then if is wrong, I agree.[Regarding China]
Gilberto: I actually wouldn't say that.
J: Muslims in Iran do say that. Understood, you don't agree with them.G: I can accept you as an individual regardless of what you believe. J: Please pass these good words on to you Muslim brothers and sisters.
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.

Re: Women in West/Islam

2005-01-12 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Gilberto:   The rights of Muslim women to property and 
inheritance, to some protection if
divorced, and to the conducting of business, were rights 
prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they 
were not everywhere translated into practice. 

Dear Gilberto,
And, interestingly, this is just one of many possible examples 
why it is necessary for God in His Omnipotence to send 
progressive revelations through His Manifestations. 
...rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, 
even if they were not everywhere translated into practice. 
We KNOW the PRESCRIPTION of the Divine Physician we don't 
always take the medicine!!  We meaning humanity...

You undoubtedly are also aware that Baha'u'llah's revealed 
prescriptions for this Day were not some dark and hidden 
secret - certainly not in the Muslim countries during His 
lifetime.

With respect and appreciation of your scholarly endeavours!
Lovingly, Sandra

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:14:56 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Gilberto:
 Shia and Sunni disagree about certain issues but I'm not
 persuaded that the issues are fundemnantal or essential. 

  Well, you may
 be in a minority here. Sunni are killing Shi'a in India and they are
 persecuted in Saudi Arabia. Iraq is a whole other kettle of worms.

Gilberto:
In some neighborhoods, teenagers will kill one another because someone
is wearing a red bandana instead of a blue bandana (and vice versa in
certain other neighborhoods). This doesn't prove that bandana color is
a fundamental essential issue.

What I'm trying to say is that some groups of Shias (namely Zaydis) as
Shias, are still able to be ok with the fact that Abu Bakr was the
khalifa. On the other hand there are some Sunnis (especially from a
Sufi background) who have a very high regard for Ali and believe he
was correct in the disagreement with Muawiya and that Muawiya was
incorrect. What I'm trying to say is that there is room for some
middle ground.

Gilberto:
 If Bahais can try to
present the doctrines of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism,
 Zorastrianism,
etc. in a way which reconciles the apparent differences
 between them,
then narrowing the differences between Sunnis and Shias is a
 walk in
the park. 



Rich:
  I don't reconcile them. I say that there founders
 taught the same Faith, which has gone through a cosmic game of telephone
 over the decades, but that each has retained enough of the truth to
 recognize the next Prophet if they try. I also say that enough of their
 writings have gone down through the ages to make a credible interpretation
 of monotheism. I also believe that Muslims have gone through the same
 telephone game, I just don't think God minds as much as we do.
 
 
  There is not a consensus that he was infallible. Among Sunnis, no. The
 Shi'a I know all seem to think so.
 It is generally
thought that he was correct in his disagreement with
 Muawiya. And its
not like there is a sunni list floating around of Imam
 Ali's top 10
mistakes. AS I said before, he could be considered a kind of
 saint
and might even be a Perfect Man.   




Rich:
 You still are beating around the
 bush. Let me put it this way. The Shi'a and the Sunni do not accept Ali in
 the same way.

Ok. So what is the difference between saying that Ali was infallible
and saying that he was a Perfect Man?

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: To Gilberto

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:32:35 -0800 (PST), louise mchenry
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Gilberto,
 
 I just read this mail over and I apologise that it is
 not that clear as I had intended it to be. While
 writing I got frequently interrupted. English is not
 my native tongue, hence the gramatical errors! ;o)


Wow, that is interesting. What is your native tongue, if I might ask?
 

And thanks for sharing your feelings about the Administrative Order.

Peace

Gilberto


 I hope it is clear enough for you why I think that the
 Administrative Order is divinely inspired and how I
 can see that justice can be practiced most perfectly,
 until the wintertime for the Bahai faith has arrived
 and the time for a new spiritual impetus is ripe, at
 which time God will send another Manifestation.
 For me there is only one religion and each new chapter
 in the book of religion builds upon the knowledge and
 understanding gained from the previous chapter. In my
 view the human world needs to receive a new spiritual
 impetus on a regular basis (well, in God's eyes), to
 spur it on to greater heights. Islam and other
 religions had their peak. The holy words still retain
 their power, but at the moment fail to create overall
 real understanding. These faiths have lost the power
 to inspire great numbers of people to the extent they
 were able to inspire before, bringing forth in great
 numbers of people the best of their being. They have
 helped humanity forward, but because of the material
 side of the human nature, eventually ego darkened the
 light of these words, until the majority of its people
 is now going through the motions, attached to the
 name, and also the practice and interpretation of
 people before them, and their religion has become a
 shell without spirit.
 
 much love,
 
 janine van rooij
 dublin ireland
 
 --- louise mchenry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  thank you for your response Gilberto.
 
  Apparently no human has thought before of the same
  simple yet to me so powerful solution on how to put
  the ideal of unity in diversity, and the way to
  universal peace to become a reality in this world,
  before Baha'u'llah made it known.
 
  What I find divinely inspired in it is that it is so
  simple. The formula is as follows: choose on a local
  level 9 (or more, the Bahai writings allow for more,
  although at present 9 is the number) representatives
  of that particular community via secret ballot, and
  do
  this yearly. Look for the qualities of purity of
  motive (so not the ones who are canvassing for
  themselves), maturity in outlook and thought and
  deeds, wisdom, humbleness, amongst others.
 
  This assembly of representatives, called in Bahai
  terms a local house of justice, has the power to
  deal
  with local issues, relating to the people and
  circumstances of that locality. While there are
  national guidelines and international guidelines to
  be
  followed, this local house of justice works closely
  together with the national assembly. They take
  decisions based on respectful, yet open and frank
  consultation, where again purity of motive and truth
  is what is to be striven for.
 
  Every year anew this assembly is formed, by secret
  ballot, from among the members of that local
  community.
 
  Same for the national assembly, via representatives
  of
  the different localities, who can elect anybody in
  the
  country who is of the age of maturity and above. And
  every 5 years for the assembly called universal
  house
  of justice, now chosen by all the members of the
  national assemblies of the different countries, but
  again all males of and above the age of maturity all
  over the world are electable.
 
  This is the layout. But this system would not work
  if
  there was not a key: consultation. In the Bahai
  sense
  this means that one is not attached to the view one
  put forward, because that can hinder the light of
  truth to become apparent. One can see the view as a
  brick with which one can build a new structure. so
  one
  offers one's thoughts in a loving, open, frank,
  respectful and detached way, concentrated on finding
  an approach/solution that is the best the assembly
  can
  come up with.
 
  It is an exercise in doing away with ego. And it can
  only work when people are willing to let go of ego.
 
  I never have read anything like it, to this detail.
  all gradations of assemblies have areas they can
  legislate on, and they can consult one another, and
  refer very difficult matters to the Universal House
  of
  Justice, which has the last say in things.
 
  I find it amazing that nobody has thought this up in
  this detail, not only the layout but also the
  concept
  of consultation as I explained above, and how this
  is
  a practical expression of spiritual principles, one
  of
  which is letting go of what profits oneself only for
  looking at what is good for all.
 
  Theoretically I think a human being is capable of
  coming up with anything,

Two Baha'is Deported from Iran

2005-01-12 Thread Max Jasper

Title: Message



Two Baha'is Deported from Iran
http://www.farsnews.com/NewsVm.asp?ID=122492
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Re: Women in West/Islam

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:57:45 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto:   The rights of Muslim women to property and
 inheritance, to some protection if
 divorced, and to the conducting of business, were rights
 prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they 
 were not everywhere translated into practice. 
 
 Dear Gilberto,
 
 And, interestingly, this is just one of many possible examples
 why it is necessary for God in His Omnipotence to send
 progressive revelations through His Manifestations.
 ...rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago,
 even if they were not everywhere translated into practice.
 We KNOW the PRESCRIPTION of the Divine Physician we don't
 always take the medicine!!  We meaning humanity...
 


But we've always known the prescription. Our souls have the same basic needs.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Women in West/Islam




In a message dated 1/12/2005 1:53:46 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice." 
Wives have the right to be summarily divorced by their husbands. Wives have the right to be beaten by their husbands. These were VAST improvements in the rights of women 1200 years ago. WOmen had the right to be cast out by their husbands without any of their dowry or property BEFORE the Qur'an. Wives had the right to be killed outof hand by their husbands before the Qur'an. These improvements under Islam are progressive, but by today's standards, they are NOT final.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Women in West/Islam

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:32:21 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 G:  I guess there might be a question of what kind of knowledge and what
 kind of intellect is more important, And what kind of knowledge is
 related to spirituality.
 
 J:  I would say that religion is necessary for the advancement of material
 civilization, spiritual civilization, as well as the progress of the
 individual.

It depends on how you mean. The growth of material civilization should
certainly be guided by spiritual principles. Advances in technology
(communications, the internet, industrialization, cloning,
reproductive technology, etc.) should certainly be guided by moral and
ethical considerations.  And what you are saying, fine.

Let me just say it this way. I get the impression that some Bahais
think Western technological and material advances show some kind of
Western spiritual superiority over the Muslim world. Is that what you
are saying? If not, then we are fine. If so, then I think you are
mistaken.


[Regarding the Quranic verse Shall they who have knowledge and they
who have it not, be treated alike?]
 
Gilberto:
 I'm not convinced that
 the primary meaning is that countries with microwave ovens and cell
 phones are supposed to be spiritually more advanced than the countries
 which don't.

 J:  Just because one is spiritual does not mean that one should through away  
 the material. 

Gilberto:
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying to throw away technology and live
in a cave somewhere. (or at least if I were going to say that I would
probably do it in a hand-written letter instead of on an e-mail list)
I'm just saying that technological advances are one thing, spiritual
advances are another. And one doesn't prove the other. And I would add
that they probably tend to be in a kind of tension rather than going
up and down together because there are only so many hours in a day.
And so a society where large numbers of people spend time working in
labs, doing calculations, programming computers, etc. would tend to
leave less time for praying, meditation, acts of charity, etc. And
vice versa.


 [Regarding China]
[And whether when the Prophet said Seek knowledge even unto China
should that be a special endorsement of technology  or does it mean
spiritual knowledge. And the argument was that it meant technology
because the Chinese are a bunch of pagans and so obviously their
religion wasn't intended]

 Gilberto: I actually wouldn't say that. 
 
 J: Muslims in Iran do say that.  Understood, you don't agree with them.
 

 There are actually a whole lot of Chinese Muslims and alot of them
didn't just reject the previous Chinese religions (Taoism,
Confucianism, Buddhism) by just dismissing them outright. There was
alot more engagement. There is a book called The Tao of Islam which
touches on this. There are alot of examples in Islam about how certain
things can be thought of as coming out the interplay between apparent
opposites. The right and left hand of God, The jamal and jalal. The
tablet and the pen. male and female. heaven and earth. There are
interesting ways of relating yin-and-yang to Islamic philsophy.

Then there is also a book called Chinese Gleams of Sufi Light which
contains translations of Chinese Muslim writings and talks about the
history of Islam and China. Another book is called Sufism and Taoism.

It just makes sense that *some* prophets were sent to China and that
some aspect of their teachings could have survived in the form of
their contemporary religions. Personally, I've been wondering whether
the I Ching might be an actual scripture.

Peace

Gilberto



My people are hydroponic

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Re: Women in West/Islam

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:15:49 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/12/2005 1:53:46 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, 
 even if they were not everywhere translated into practice. 

  Wives have
 the right to be beaten by their husbands.

There are numerous texts in the Quran and hadith where husbands are
told to treat their wives kindly and mercifully. And they are told
specifically not to beat them. If Bahais can make seal mean
something other than last, then you should be able to find ways of
understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent with fair, just
compassionate treatment of women.

...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble
Quran, 2:231)

If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is
no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between
themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are
swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is
well-acquainted with all that ye do.  (The Noble Quran, 4:128)

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our
wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and
clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do
not revile them.  (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab
Al-Nikah), Number 2139)

Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: I said: Apostle of Allah, how should
we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied:
Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food
when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her
face, and do not beat her.  (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab
Al-Nikah), Number 2138)


O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their
will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away
part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the
marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been
guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing
of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye
dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.
 (The Noble Quran, 4:19)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, 'The strong is not the
one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the
one who controls himself while in anger.  (Translation of Sahih
Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number
135)

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Women in West/Islam

G:
If Bahais can make "seal" mean something other than last, then you should be able to find ways of understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent with fair, just compassionate treatment of women.
J:

Gilberto, this is an interesting statement. I have a couple of comments:

1) Do you think we are making 'seal' mean something other than last to *justify* Baha'u'llah? Thefact is that Baha'u'llah stands on His own merits and does need the Qur'an's interpretationforvalidation. Qur'anic proof for Baha'u'llah is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Baha'u'llah would still be Baha'u'llah even if He failed to meet *all* the prophecies of the Qur'an, for it would be a test for the people. But don't get me wrong, all the prophecies of the Qur'an do point to Baha'u'llah (but that is not the point). Stated another way, we are not into word games,to try toreinterpret (for the good) the meaning of the Qur'an to prove that women have absolute equality. We are only human, and none of us are interpreters of the Word of God.Baha'is are promoters of the Words of Baha'u'llah, and believe that revelation is progressive, so there is a need for the renewal of God's Law and God's
Commandments and God's Word, plain and simple.

2) If you have not gotten the impression yet, Baha'u'llah states that there are always multiple levels of meaning in the words of God. This applies to the equality of men and women, and to the 'seal of the Prophets', and to whether the Manifestation is God, or whether God's religion stays the same over time, or whether all the prophets are one, or whether everything.

3) *ALLVALID* ways of viewing the meaning of the 'seal of the prophets'.
1 - The Last Prophet of all time. In this view, Muhammad as a Manifestation has the same spirit as Baha'u'llah, Jesus, and the very last physical prophet before the Sun goes into a supernova. Therefore, in this sense, since Muhammad is the same spirit as the last prophet to walk the earth in like 100 years or whatever, He is in fact the Last Prophet.

2- The Last Prophet of the Prophetic Cycle. In this view, Muhammad was the last to foretell the coming of the Twin Manifestations the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who opened the Cycle of Fullfillment.

3 -Confirmer/Ratifier/Securer of the Prophets. In this view, Muhammad as the etc. etc.

4- Stamp of the Prophets.In this view, ... I think you get my drift.

5 -End of Nabis.

6 -etc. etc. I am sure you can think of a few more. I am no scholar.

4) The same principle can apply on the question of Women. Yes, on one level, the Qur'an established COMPLETE equality between men and women. On another level, there are marked differences between the sexes. Both are valid, as history has attested to the abuse of Women by the Muslim people as well as other people. The veiling of women may have been a sign of PURITY and CHASTITY and HOLINESS, as nuns are veiled too. But this has been taken advantage of my men in the middle east to batter, put down, and cage women in their own homes.

5) One way or another,nothing changes the fact that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God, and the only one since the coming of Muhammad (except the Bab). He will also be the only Manfiestation of God within the next 800 or so years. How do I know this? Faith in His words, for I am convinced that He is Who He says He is.

6) Baha'u'llah states that Revelation is Progressive, and only God can change people from badto good. Reformers, scholars, and good, honest people like you can, indeed, make a big difference in Islam, and I, and others, praise you for your efforts. But Only God can resurrect the dead, enrich the poor, cure the blind, and heal the leper.God be praisedfor Speaking again to humanity through Him Manifestation Baha'u'llah.
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! What will yours do?

re: Regarding membership on the Universal House of Justice

2005-01-12 Thread Brent Poirier

 Actually it was a Universal House of Justice 
decision that ruled that women could not be on the UHJ.

I would like to offer my own take on this.

I think that what the House decided, was that it is not a matter on which it 
can legislate, as the Text has already addressed the subject.  The House can 
only legislate where the Text is silent, or to supplement legislation revealed 
in the Text.

What the House did, after reviewing the Text and the authorized interpretations 
by the Master and the Guardian, was conclude that the Text states that 
membership on the House is limited to men, and that it cannot change that 
provision.
The letter is here: 
http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_women_uhj.html

Brent
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Re: Regarding membership on the Universal House of Justice




In a message dated 1/12/2005 6:58:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What the House did, after reviewing the Text and the authorized interpretations by the Master and the Guardian, was conclude that the Text states that membership on the House is limited to men, and that it cannot change that provision.The letter is here: 
I do not see any way for it to change, but I am willing to admit, my vision is not perfect. However the House ruled that it could not change that provision, House rulings in general, however, are reversable. IF, let me emphasize IF, the House were to run across new information they could change their minds on that decision as they can on any decision they make.

"The wisdom of it" will someday be as clear as the sun, what that wisdom will turn out to be, I cannot venture.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Women in West/Islam

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:16:12 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 G:
 
 If Bahais can make seal mean something other than last, then you should be
 able to find ways of understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent
 with fair, just compassionate treatment of women.
 J:
  
 Gilberto, this is an interesting statement.  I have a couple of comments:
  
 1) Do you think we are making 'seal' mean something other than last to
 *justify* Baha'u'llah?  The fact is that Baha'u'llah stands on His own
 merits and does need the Qur'an's interpretation for validation.  

In some ways, I think so. I wouldn't say that to a Buddhist or a Hindu
or a Taoist or a Rastafarian because they are more or less silent
about the Quran. But that Bahai faith actually says that it believes
in Muhammad as a person sent from God, a Manifestation, and it
actually say that the Quran is the absolutely authentic word of God.
So if the Quran has a sentence in it which contradicts satatments in
the Bahai faith then that is a problem (for the Bahai faith). For the
Bahai faith, everything in the Quran is true, so whatever
interpretation the verses have, they have to be consistent with the
Bahai faith.

Christians have a similar relation to the Jewish scriptures. This is
because the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible.

On the
 Baha'u'llah would still be Baha'u'llah even if He failed to meet *all* the
 prophecies of the Qur'an, for it would be a test for the people. 

If there are clear prophecies in the Quran, and we could agree to how
to interpret those prophecies, and Bahaullah failed to meet those
prophecies, then that would be a serious contradiction at the
foundation of the Bahai faith. Not just a test, but a logical problem.

  
 2)  If you have not gotten the impression yet, Baha'u'llah states that there
 are always multiple levels of meaning in the words of God.  This applies to
 the equality of men and women, and to the 'seal of the Prophets', and to
 whether the Manifestation is God, or whether God's religion stays the same
 over time, or whether all the prophets are one, or whether  everything.

Ok, let's start from that idea. There are multiple levels of meaning
in the words of God. I can agree to that. So when it comes to the term
seal of the prophets Bahais can get creative (not meaning to be
facetious) and come up with all sorts of interpretations of seal
other than last. For example:


  
 3)  *ALL VALID* ways of viewing the meaning of the 'seal of the prophets'.
 
 1 - The Last Prophet of all time.  In this view, Muhammad as a Manifestation
 has the same spirit as Baha'u'llah, Jesus,  and the very last physical
 prophet before the Sun goes into a supernova.  Therefore, in this sense,
 since Muhammad is the same spirit as the last prophet to walk the earth in
 like 100 years or whatever, He is in fact the Last Prophet.
  
 2- The Last Prophet of the Prophetic Cycle.  In this view, Muhammad was the
 last to foretell the coming of the Twin Manifestations the Bab and
 Baha'u'llah, who opened the Cycle of Fullfillment.
  
 3 - Confirmer/Ratifier/Securer of the Prophets.  In this view, Muhammad as
 the  etc. etc.
  
 4 - Stamp of the Prophets.  In this view, ... I think you get my drift.
  
 5 - End of Nabis.
  
 6 - etc. etc. I am sure you can think of a few more.  I am no scholar.
  

Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran,
I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of effort.
Instead of saying how the Quran can be read on multiple levels they
would rather have an insulting view of God, and believe that God
endorsed wife-beating, and so then it becomes an excuse to get rid of
Islam and replace it with something else.

When if you didn't want to have an insulting view of God, another
approach would be to point out that just as seal might mean
something other than last in Arabic, that daraba can mean many
other things besides beat. It's even used in multiple ways in the
Quran itself.


the word daraba which some people translate as beat actually
appears elsewhere in the Quran itself with other meanings.



To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273  
To set up: 43:58; 57:13 

To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58;
36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
To take away, to ignore: 43:5 
To condemn: 2:61 
To seal, to draw over: 18:11 
To cover: 24:31 
To explain: 13:17 

Not to mention the other meanings it takes elsewhere in Arabic
literature.


And if you want more clarification on the subject you can look at
other places in the Quran and sunnah:


Among the Muslims, the most perfect as regards his faith is the one
whose character is most excellent, and the best among you are those
who treat their wives well. (Narrated by Tirmidhi.)


We went to the apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: What do you say
[command] about our wives??He replied: Give them the same food you
have for yourself, and clothe them with the

Re: Women in West/Islam




In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Christians have a similar relation to the Jewish scriptures. This isbecause the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible.
Yes . . . and . . . no. Most Jews will tell you that the Christian Old Testament is based upon a Greek translation of the Hebrew text that is insufficiently accurate. When reading the TaNakh, even in English translation, one can notice a number of differences - the most notorious is the quote from Isaiah about a virgin bringingforth a child. Well, the word in Hebrew is "almah" and means "young woman". THere is an entirely different word in Hebrew for "virgin" but I cannot recall it at the moment. This is probably the most notorious difference between the Septuagint and the Hebrew text.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Women in West/Islam




In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran,I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of effort.Instead of saying how the Quran can be read on multiple levels theywould rather have an insulting view of God, and believe that Godendorsed wife-beating, and so then it becomes an excuse to get rid ofIslam and replace it with something else.When if you didn't want to have an insulting view of God, anotherapproach would be to point out that just as "seal" might meansomething other than "last" in Arabic, that "daraba" can mean manyother things besides "beat". It's even used in multiple ways in theQuran itself.the word "daraba" which some people translate as "beat" actually
I mentioned the Aur'anic license to beat wives for a purpose, but it was not to demean Islam. 
The limitation on ill-treatment of wives was a geometric progression forthebenefit of women in the time of Muhammed. There were no such restrictions on husbands before Muhammed.
All three of these translations seem to agree on the meaning of 'daraba'. As does Rodwell to the best of my recollection.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Luke 21:33 the Qur'an

2005-01-12 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 12:06 PM 1/12/2005, you wrote:
I'm not blaming them. I'm describing them. All I'm saying is that the concept 
of finality of revelation is not as essential, or emphasized, or as clear in 
Christianity as it is in Islam. It's not the most common argument Christians 
have against Islam.
 
You don't think that the statement, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No 
one comes to the Father except through Me, is the principal argument used by 
the fundamentalist and conservative evangelical websites against Islam?

 The exclusivity of Christ appears to be the most common objection raised by 
these folks against, not only Muslims, but Buddhists, Hindus, Baha'is, and just 
about every other religion I recall.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Regarding membership on the Universal House of Justice

2005-01-12 Thread Patti Goebel

 What the House did, after reviewing the Text and the authorized
interpretations by the Master and the Guardian, was conclude that the Text
states that membership on the House is limited to men, and that it cannot
change that provision.


It's my understanding that there is also the future institution of the
Supreme Tribunal, from which women are not excluded.

Should differences arise, they shall be amicably and conclusively settled
by the Supreme Tribunal, that shall include members from all the governments
and peoples of the world.  (Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 13)

Patti


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Re: Women in West/Islam

2005-01-12 Thread Patti Goebel

 There are numerous texts in the Quran and hadith where husbands are
 told to treat their wives kindly and mercifully. And they are told
 specifically not to beat them. 

Gilberto,

Thanks for pointing these out.

Patti

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Re: Women, Prophets, Contradictions, Interpretations