Re: More Lies
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forgive me, but I'm not sure of your point in posting this with the subject More Lies - who are you accusing of lying? The Bush Administration or Howard Dean? No, forgive me, poor choice of titles. The Bushes are, of coarse, the devious ones. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Update
From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ancient precursors aren't exactly a new idea in SF. Sounds more like a ripoff of Star Control II/SC III anyway. Of course, since Star Control II was a *GREAT* game, at least they're borrowing from the best. :) Star Control 2 is one of the best games I've ever played. I still occasionally listen to some mp3's of the music from it! (OTOH, SC3 was pretty much a disappointment for me.) FYI for other SC2 fans: There's a group of fans (very slowly) trying to create a new Star Control game: http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/timewarp/ They intend to do both the whole adventure and combat portions, but right now only the melee-mode combat is available. It's actually pretty decent, but still fairly buggy yet. The original developers have released their SC2 source code as well, and there's another fan-based project to port it to assorted OS's here: http://sc2.sourceforge.net/ _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
William T Goodall wrote: On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 11:23 pm, Jon Gabriel wrote: It is impossible to prove that God either exists or does not exist somewhere, anywhere in the universe with the exception of anecdotal examples. Therefore, both belief *and* nonbelief in God are the result of faith and not scientific principle. So, one may accurately say that both Atheists and Theists rely on faith to support their conclusions. Only agnostics do not. It seems to me it makes more sense to be agnostic about whether woolly mammoths are extinct than about whether god(s) exist. After all, we have evidence that woolly mammoths *did* survive until relatively recently, and the world is a big place... There is no evidence at all that god(s) exist or ever did. So why be agnostic about that and not woolly mammoths? The reason I term myself Agnostic rather than Atheist is that though I have no doubt that there is no omnipotent, omnibenevolent god that watches over us and listens to our prayers, and absolutely no doubt that the idea of heaven is hogwash, I can't know without a doubt that there may be vastly superior beings - on the order of being gods. I have no way of being sure that the origins of life on this planet were not initialized by such a being either. I doubt it, but cannot verify my mistrust. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Update
At 02:14 PM 7/9/03 -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: The full paragraph from the press release reads: In Advent Rising, a common legend pervades the galaxy - that of a powerful, ancient race that will one day unite the universe. Millions of cultures from vastly distant worlds revere and hallow these mythological beings known as humans. One race, the Seekers, know humans actually exist and are threatened by their potential power. Under the guise of benevolent explorers, the Seekers travel throughout the galaxy in a desperate attempt to eradicate any human society they unearth. It doesn't seem like that really has much to do with Uplift, unless Dr. Brin is revealing the secret identity of the Progenitors to us unintentionally... :-) What was the race called in _Star Trek_ which was supposed to have seeded the Galaxy with the ancestors of the various intelligent races? Point: It's not exactly a unique idea. The _title_ of the game does sound rather familiar, but I don't know whether that was chosen by OSC or the marketing department of the game maker . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: more on printing organs
At 09:33 PM 7/9/03 -0500, The Fool wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3916 Nanotechnology may create new organs Oh. When I read the subject line, I wondered if it was about growing a built-in printer. Though I shudder to contemplate where the paper would come out . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Spider space elevator? (was: US-based missiles tohaveglobalreach)
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 01:03:14PM +1000, Ray Ludenia wrote: And once again, we have a winner! Congratulations! Which one? Which won? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 06:24:21PM -0500, Reggie Bautista wrote: It's just not evidence that lends itself easily to scientific study. And is therefore very poor information, not really evidence at all, just anecdotes. One of the most important things about science is that anyone, anytime who can perform an experiment can verify some bit of scientific knowledge. If they perform the same experiment as anyone else, they will get the same result. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars query: air pressure in spinning habitats
On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:11:22PM -0400, David Hobby wrote: Robert J. Chassell wrote: We may have interpreted the configuration differently. I interpreted C as meaning a torus, or donut, or `like the inner tube of a tire'. Agreed. The short columns must have the same pressure distribution as the long columns in the spokes, since they are in equilibrium with each other at any given height. Now C is nothing but short columns--again nothing changes. Except that this `inner tube' or torus arrangement has no long columns of air within spokes. Yes, but how do the short columns know that the long columns aren't there? It doesn't matter what the other columns are! Let me put this another way: Given (by the specification) that the pressure at the rim is 1 bar and the surface acceleration is 10 m/s^2, Case 1: the spinning tuna can The air column above a point on the rim is 10 km, going to the other side, and it is 5 km to the central spin axis. Case 2: the spinning donut The air column above a point on the rim is 1 km, although the diameter of the torus is 10 km. In each case, what is the air pressure at an altitude of 1 km from the rim? For case 1, based on what Erik wrote, the pressure is 0.988 of the rim pressure. What is the air pressure for case 2? The same as in case 1. Yes, I agree. P/P0 = exp[ - ( h / R )^2 / 3.45 ] Since h/R = 1/5 = 0.2, P/P0 = 0.988 (Although a pressure of .988 bar seems a bit high--a kilometer of height makes a much larger pressure difference on Earth.) As I said before, it does not make sense to make direct numerical comparisons with Earth. Earth has a different potential gradient and is much larger than a 5km habitat. You have a better physical intuition than I do, David, but I think your refusal to work with actual equations and numbers is hampering you here. The potential energy at a height h above the Earth is U = m g h / ( 1 + h / R_e ) and the resulting equation for pressure P/P0 = exp[ -( h / R_e )( R_e m g / k / T ) / ( 1 + h / R_e ) ] but since R_e = 6370km, and h = 1km, (1 + h / R_e) = 1 is an excellent approximation so the formula becomes P/P0 = exp[ -( h / R_e )( R_e m g / k / T ) ] = exp[ -739 ( h / R_e )] At 1km on Earth, P/P0 = 0.89, but it is worth repeating again that the formula is different, exp[-h] dependence instead of exp[-h^2], and the radius used in each formula is vastly different. So it is a bad idea to make direct numerical comparisons of pressure gradients between Earth and small, spinning habitats. I'll try one last time. You are free to add all the partitions between parts of the habitat you want, and it won't affect the pressure. So go from Case 1 to Case 2 by adding a ceiling partition at 1 km height. It makes no difference! Let me expand on this a little. At any point inside the habitat, there is a gas pressure (from many atoms randomly bouncing around and hitting whatever is measuring or feeling the pressure). But in equilibrium, the pressure exerted in one direction must be equal to the pressure in the opposite direction (if it were not, there would not be equilibrium and in the absence of any transient driving forces the system would change until it did reach such an equilibrium). The point I am making is that at any height the gas pressure pushing up must equal the gas pressure pushing down at equilibrium. One more point. If you push your hand against the wall, the wall pushes back with an equal and opposite force -- i.e., the force exerted by the wall is not constant, it depends on how hard you press. Some people find this counter-intuitive, but the wall is really no different than a very, very stiff spring. The more you squeeze (or pull) a spring the harder it becomes to squeeze (or pull) it further. The same for the wall, but it is so stiff you cannot see it compress (unless you are very strong or the wall is very cheap!). So, when the gas column above 1km is replaced by a wall, nothing is different about the pressures, since the gas molecules exert a pressure on the wall and the wall pushes back with the same pressure (which is also the same pressure as the 4km gas column above used to press on the 1km gas column below). -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Aliens? was Re: God, Religion, and Sports Medicine
On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 11:29:54PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does it change anyone's perspective recalling that as many people believe in aliens/intelligent life (or some such), as believe in religion? It doesn't change mine. I don't believe in intelligent life. I think there is a good chance that there has been, is, or will be other intelligent life in the universe other than us (if it can happen here and now, it could happen elsewhere and elsewhen). But that is just a guess. I don't claim intelligent extraterrestrial life actually exists, and if I were to live forever and search and search for millenia and I didn't find anything, I would change my assertion about there being a good chance. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Update
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ronn!Blankenship Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 4:20 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Update At 02:14 PM 7/9/03 -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: The full paragraph from the press release reads: In Advent Rising, a common legend pervades the galaxy - that of a powerful, ancient race that will one day unite the universe. Millions of cultures from vastly distant worlds revere and hallow these mythological beings known as humans. One race, the Seekers, know humans actually exist and are threatened by their potential power. Under the guise of benevolent explorers, the Seekers travel throughout the galaxy in a desperate attempt to eradicate any human society they unearth. It doesn't seem like that really has much to do with Uplift, unless Dr. Brin is revealing the secret identity of the Progenitors to us unintentionally... :-) What was the race called in _Star Trek_ which was supposed to have seeded the Galaxy with the ancestors of the various intelligent races? I thought they were called the Progenitors although I could be confusing episodes/series. A review of the episode you're referring to is here: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~werdna/sttng/tlynch/chase.rev.html (It doesn't mention the name of that race) And the quote that wraps up the major plot points in the episode, spoken by a projection of one of those progenitors: You're wondering who we are ... why we have done this ... how it has come that I stand before you, the image of a being from so long ago. Life evolved on my planet before all others in this part of the galaxy. We left our world, explored the stars, and found none like ourselves. Our civilization thrived for ages -- but what is the life of one race, compared to the vast stretches of cosmic time? We knew that one day we would be gone, and nothing of us would survive -- so we left _you_. Our scientists seeded the primordial oceans of many worlds, where life was in its infancy. The seed codes directed your evolution toward a physical form resembling ours: this body you see before you, which is of course shaped as yours is shaped, for you _are_ the end result. The seed codes also contain this message, which is scattered in fragments on many different worlds. It was our hope that you would have to come together in fellowship and companionship to hear this message -- and if you can see and hear me, our hope has been fulfilled. You are a monument, not to our greatness, but to our existence. That was our wish: that you too would know life, and would keep alive our memory. There is something of us in each of you, and so, something of you in each other. Remember us. Point: It's not exactly a unique idea. But the concept is pretty cool. :) The advent rising website is here: www.adventtrilogy.com Jon Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
---Original Message--- From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Saying that for hundreds or thousands of years, no one has publicized a repeatable experiment demonstrating the existence of some god, therefore, for all practical purposes, god does not exist seems much closer to a scientific statement than a faith statement. What about the Divine Clockmaker theory of God? i.e. that God set the universe into motion with some kind of divine plan, but essentially does not interfere in day-to-day existence on Earth. I believe that this theory is also compatible with belief in life-ever-after and salvation (but I'm sure Dan M. will correct me if I am wrong.) I would characterize this theory of God as being religious, and I also believe that most atheists would disagree with this theory. Yet, doesn't disagreement with this theory require a measure of faith, as Jon has suggested? JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: On the topic of atheism.
---Original Message--- From: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is impossible to prove that God ...exists... with the exception of anecdotal examples. Why does belief in anecdotal examples constitute faith? Is there some kind of critical mass of anecdotal examples that constitutes proof? Or do you consider belief in evolution to require a similar type of faith as you attribute to being required for belief in God? JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wasn't This Resolved a Long Time Ago? Re: God, Religion, andSports
---Original Message--- From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe they weren't paying attention either? I certainly stopped paying serious attention to you a long time ago, when you demonstrated your incapacity for civility and seriousness. Perhaps if you demonstrated such capacity, people might pay attention to you. But as Julia recently noted, incivility and unseriousness is the fast-track to getting yourself ignored. And if you simply prefer being ignored to changing your on-list behavior, you'll just have to tolerate the messages flowing into your e-mail account from the list-members who have ignored you and your conclusions :) and are proceeding to discuss things anyways. JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 05:50:47AM -0400, John D. Giorgis wrote: ---Original Message--- From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Saying that for hundreds or thousands of years, no one has publicized a repeatable experiment demonstrating the existence of some god, therefore, for all practical purposes, god does not exist seems much closer to a scientific statement than a faith statement. What about the Divine Clockmaker theory of God? i.e. that God set the universe into motion with some kind of divine plan, but essentially does not interfere in day-to-day existence on Earth. I believe that this theory is also compatible with belief in life-ever-after and salvation (but I'm sure Dan M. will correct me if I am wrong.) I would characterize this theory of God as being religious, and I also believe that most atheists would disagree with this theory. Yet, doesn't disagreement with this theory require a measure of faith, as Jon has suggested? Disagreement with that (I promised to be more precise in my word choice so I can't use theory here) hypothesis does not require faith. Saying the hypotheis is definitely wrong might, but since, as I said, no repeatable experiments are known to support the hypothesis, disagreement is reasonable. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: On the topic of atheism.
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 05:53:46AM -0400, John D. Giorgis wrote: ---Original Message--- From: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is impossible to prove that God ...exists... with the exception of anecdotal examples. Why does belief in anecdotal examples constitute faith? Is there some kind of critical mass of anecdotal examples that constitutes proof? Or do you consider belief in evolution to require a similar type of faith as you attribute to being required for belief in God? Because repeatable experiments that give the same results when done by anyone, anytime result in reliable knowledge. Anecdotes and folk tales are not reliable or repeatable. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
---Original Message--- From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Until someone can produce some convincing evidence (a specimen isn't necessary) then god(s) don't exist. Unforunately Wllliam, you aren't the final arbiter for humanity on the definition of convincing. To use just one example, some 70% of Americans seem to have found the evidence convincing - as has a significant supermajority of the entire worlds population... So, I'd guess that there is some other standard here for conclusion than convincing - since on that standard alone, I'd argue that God seems to win. JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Update
--- Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course, since Star Control II was a *GREAT* game, at least they're borrowing from the best. :) Jim Ah, Star Control 2. I think that might still be my all-time favorite game. That was a fun one. If there was anything like that out there right now, I might go back to playing computer games. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: test
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Julia Thompson Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 9:18 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: test Deborah Harrell wrote: Ping? Pong. I'm waiting to hear from Nick as to just what happened there. Julia who was out for over 4 hours and missed most of the interruption (and who had a good time this evening) There was an interruption? The network was okay here, so I'm not sure what the problem might have been. Believe me, I would have noticed -- we're on a very short deadline... announcement to follow in the next three hours. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 06:02:02AM -0400, John D. Giorgis wrote: To use just one example, some 70% of Americans seem to have found the evidence convincing - as has a significant supermajority of the entire worlds population... No, many of them believe different, contradictory things. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More Sci-Fi Channel sadness....
Erik Reuter wrote: On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:07:22PM -0500, Steve Sloan II wrote: I would be very interested to know how much of those ratings came from Stargate (their last surviving serious SF show), how much came from Tremors (mediocre, occasionally cute, but not evil), and how much came from the truly evil Scare Tactics. Laugh it up, you could be next! You forgot to wink. (I think I will never get that out of my mind. The horrors I sit through just to watch Stargate!) sigh Well, let's just hope they don't screw up SG-SG1. Or Cartoon Network's Adult Swim for that matter. It's really sad that there's only two things worth watching even semi-regularly any more. -- Matt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 12:24 am, Reggie Bautista wrote: As was discussed in another branch of this thread, many people *do* feel they have evidence of the divine, in the form of numinous experiences and apparitions and what some people see as a guiding hand in their life, etc. It's just not evidence that lends itself easily to scientific study. Reggie Bautista A feeling you have some evidence is not at all the same thing as actually having some evidence. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs. -- Robert Firth -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing because verbing weirds language. Then they arrival for the nouns, and I speech nothing because I no verbs. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: br!n: the Chronicles of Riddick look like a Jijo ripoff :-/
From: Julia Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, that's one way that some people have fun. And some people can't understand why I still play RPGs at my age. Different people have fun in different ways, huh? But, I must also point out, this is the only list I'm currently subscribed to where this sort of thing has happened since I first subscribed, so I'm not casting fatigued the way you seem to be. :) I've been reading Usenet way, way too long, I think. I'm not sure why I still do... - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Why we cast novels
From: Reggie Bautista [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] John Horn replied: rant mode Does anyone else *HATE* these sorts of discussions as much as I do? They are so unbelievably pointless! John, I have to respectfully disagree with you. And you are certainly allowed to. (Unlike in the religion thread, apparently...) I usually enjoy discussions like this. You learn a lot about people, and to some extent, you get to experience the story from a new point of view. You can learn a lot about a person by how they would cast a movie. OK. I guess I can buy that. Many times the choices just seem pointless. Then again, I haven't seen one of these discussions in a forum other than an unmoderated newsgroup so it might be a little different here. Who knows? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Why we cast novels
From: Bryon Daly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with Reggie, for pretty much the same reasons. I don't think that casting a novel is all that much more pointless than, say, discussing how Glorfindel, killed in the Silmarillion, is alive and well to assist Frodo et al on the way to Rivendell. Well, clearly, Glorfindel was released by Mandos and ... er ... nevermind. Or, say, discussing the cover art on a Springsteen album. You mean you can actually see the art on those itty-bitty CD cases? Give me a full-size LP for cover art anyday. Of course, not too many of those left... - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
SCOUTED : 'Reading Rainbow' and its elusive pot of gold
It's wholesome, bright, and unpolluted by advertising tie-in gimmicks; it promotes literacy, and my children benefit from it enormously, so it's only natural that the PBS show Reading Rainbow is about to lose its signature butterfly wings due to a lack of funding. http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0710/p09s02-coop.html Even though I was a bit old for the show, I did enjoy watching it. It would be a shame to see Reading Rainbow disappear. It seems that there is no room for more than 10 kids shows in America: Some corporations did come forward, only to be turned off by low ratings. Reading Rainbow - carried by 85 percent of PBS stations - has never made Nielsen's top 10 of all children's shows. (Other PBS programs, such as Clifford and Arthur, are frequently among the top five shows.) :-( Jean-Louis ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Reading lists.
I know that this list was originally started as a list dedicated to discussion of specific authors and their books, so I thought I would bring up a topic that is closer to being actually on topic in the little time that I have to compose email today (at least part of the reason that I haven't replied to other threads). I have been reading more than usual recently. Mostly because the air conditioner I have in my room sucks, so leaving my computer on all day makes the room intollerably hot on days when the air conditioner is not working the way it should. It started with reading _Dragonseye_ by Anne McCaffrey (one of the Pern novels). That was followed by reading _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ by Phillip K. Dick. After that I read _/_ by Greg Bear. I am currently reading _Expendable_ by James Alan Gardner. I wanted to ask those who have read some/many of the Pern novels a question. I have only read _Dragonseye_ and _The Dolphins of Pern_. The question I have is: Are the events in some of the other pern books more epic? Let me elaborate for clarity. I liked the books, but I found them to be a little lacking in the end because there never seems to be any grand, exciting events in the stories. No major climax to the story. Are the other Pern novels similar, or are there better ones? On the topic of _/_ by Greg Bear, I may start another thread later about that book, but I wanted to ask, for those who have read more of Greg Bear's books if _/_ represented a One of Greg Bear's better books, was on par with most of his books, or were his other books superior? I ask because I quite liked that novel. It was a bit like pushing a heavy item on wheels. It was a little hard to start reading (mostly because the events at the begining are so disjointed), but once momentum was built up (and events started to tie together), it was difficult to stop reading it. If some people would care to recommend some other Greg Bear books, that would be appreciated. Reading _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ was interesting and painful. Worth reading once in my opinion, but it is a book I probably won't read again. Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much... the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons. - Douglas Adams ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Why we cast novels
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Bryon Daly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] You mean you can actually see the art on those itty-bitty CD cases? Give me a full-size LP for cover art anyday. Of course, not too many of those left... I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. It's a real shame: the death of the LP and the small size of CD and tape covers seem to have killed most of that whole art-concept aspect of albums. _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: test
Nick Arnett wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Julia Thompson Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 9:18 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: test Deborah Harrell wrote: Ping? Pong. I'm waiting to hear from Nick as to just what happened there. Julia who was out for over 4 hours and missed most of the interruption (and who had a good time this evening) There was an interruption? The network was okay here, so I'm not sure what the problem might have been. The webserver was certainly having a problem -- I tried to take care of some administrative requests, and could not. Got some sort of error (never saw that error number before that I remember, it was 5-something-something, might check the logs to see if it was recorded), and no listmail was coming through. Don't know how much was *posted* during that time. (We *do* get lulls sometime, just not usually on a weekday evening.) Believe me, I would have noticed -- we're on a very short deadline... announcement to follow in the next three hours. Still waiting to see what that is. ;) Looking forward to it. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Aliens? was Re: God, Religion, and Sports Medicine
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 11:29:54PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does it change anyone's perspective recalling that as many people believe in aliens/intelligent life (or some such), as believe in religion? It doesn't change mine. I don't believe in intelligent life. [Slight connotation change by snipping there, but it was worth it.] We even have about 6 billion examples of intelligent biological life forms handy to bolster that claim. ;-) So we have pretty undeniable proof that the universe supports intelligent biological life; finding more examples is, as Erik says, just a matter of looking. There is no faith required. Either we'll find more examples or we won't, but it doesn't change the fact that some do, in fact, exist, right here on Earth. Compare/contrast with belief in supernatural beings, where we don't have any handy, uncontestable examples of any members of the entire class of such entities. Joshua _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: test
At 06:34 2003-07-10 -0700, Nick wrote: Believe me, I would have noticed -- we're on a very short deadline... announcement to follow in the next three hours. Nick Nice way to pique my curiosity, Nick. Should I put some bubbly in the refrigerator? Jean-Louis ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
Michael Harney wrote: I know that this list was originally started as a list dedicated to discussion of specific authors and their books, so I thought I would bring up a topic that is closer to being actually on topic in the little time that I have to compose email today (at least part of the reason that I haven't replied to other threads). I have been reading more than usual recently. Mostly because the air conditioner I have in my room sucks, so leaving my computer on all day makes the room intollerably hot on days when the air conditioner is not working the way it should. It started with reading _Dragonseye_ by Anne McCaffrey (one of the Pern novels). That was followed by reading _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ by Phillip K. Dick. After that I read _/_ by Greg Bear. I am currently reading _Expendable_ by James Alan Gardner. I wanted to ask those who have read some/many of the Pern novels a question. I have only read _Dragonseye_ and _The Dolphins of Pern_. The question I have is: Are the events in some of the other pern books more epic? Let me elaborate for clarity. I liked the books, but I found them to be a little lacking in the end because there never seems to be any grand, exciting events in the stories. No major climax to the story. Are the other Pern novels similar, or are there better ones? _Dragonflight_, the first one written, has some grand, exciting events. _Dragonsdawn_ is more exciting, as well. _Moreta_ at least has a much greater sense of urgency than either of the two you've read. Let's see if I can remember order of publication: Dragonflight Dragonquest The White Dragon Moreta Dragonsdawn Nerilka's Story OK, I'm losing it now, and I'm not sure that Nerilka's Story was published before Dragonsdawn. (I know I read it *after*, and I was seizing McCaffrey books as soon as they came out in paperback for awhile there) There are a number that follow, including the two you read. There was also the Harper Hall Trilogy, starting with _Dragonsong_, followed by _Dragonsinger_ and concluding with _Dragondrums_. They're on an easier reading level, not terribly epic, but about characters I enjoyed reading about. Then again, I read the first one for the first time at age 10, and read _Dragonsinger_ repeatedly when I was in junior high, so take that into consideration. (At least they're quicker reads, so if you're somewhat disappointed, you won't have invested as much time in them.) You might like _The Ship Who Sang_, which is by McCaffrey, but not a Pern book. Or _Decision on Doona_ (same). Reading _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ was interesting and painful. Worth reading once in my opinion, but it is a book I probably won't read again. The movie that was based on it, Blade Runner, is worth watching. Painful in different ways. (I won't say not as painful, but it's a very good movie, IMO.) That's all I have to say about that right now. :) Julia p.s. if you can get it from your library, you might be interested in _Speed of Dark_ by Elizabeth Moon. It'll be out in paperback sometime early next year, I think. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 11:20:29AM -0600, Michael Harney wrote: On the topic of _/_ by Greg Bear, I may start another thread later about that book, but I wanted to ask, for those who have read more of Greg Bear's books if _/_ represented a One of Greg Bear's better books, was on par with most of his books, or were his other books superior? I'd say par. Are you aware that _Slash_ was a (loose) sequel to _Queen of Angels_? I'd recommend _Moving Mars_ and _Blood Music_ as his best novels. Another good one is _Eon_. He also has a less-SciFi'ish (fantasy) book, _Songs of Earth and Power_ that was pretty good. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
Not really a direct reply, but I'm currently reading _The Mote Arround Mucheson's Eye_ (yes, the sequel to _A Mote in god's Eye_) and _Shadow Puppets_ (OSC - third in the _Shadow_ saga) Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wasn't This Resolved a Long Time Ago? Re: God, Religion, andSports
On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 10:57 am, John D. Giorgis wrote: I certainly stopped paying serious attention to you a long time ago, when you demonstrated your incapacity for civility and seriousness. Perhaps if you demonstrated such capacity, people might pay attention to you. But as Julia recently noted, incivility and unseriousness is the fast-track to getting yourself ignored. And if you simply prefer being ignored to changing your on-list behavior, you'll just have to tolerate the messages flowing into your e-mail account from the list-members who have ignored you and your conclusions :) and are proceeding to discuss things anyways. Still talking to yourself? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I speak better English than this villain Bush - Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Information Minister ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
From: Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] I wanted to ask those who have read some/many of the Pern novels a question. I have only read _Dragonseye_ and _The Dolphins of Pern_. The question I have is: Are the events in some of the other pern books more epic? Let me elaborate for clarity. I liked the books, but I found them to be a little lacking in the end because there never seems to be any grand, exciting events in the stories. No major climax to the story. Are the other Pern novels similar, or are there better ones? I never read any of the Pern books, so I can't comment on this. On the topic of _/_ by Greg Bear, I may start another thread later about that book, but I wanted to ask, for those who have read more of Greg Bear's books if _/_ represented a One of Greg Bear's better books, was on par with most of his books, or were his other books superior? I ask because I quite liked that novel. It was a bit like pushing a heavy item on wheels. It was a little hard to start reading (mostly because the events at the begining are so disjointed), but once momentum was built up (and events started to tie together), it was difficult to stop reading it. If some people would care to recommend some other Greg Bear books, that would be appreciated. I haven't read (or even heard of) _/_ (or does this mean Slant, which I also haven't read?), but I mostly liked the Greg Bear books I have read: Blood Music, Forge of God, Anvil of Stars: these all had some interesting concepts and I enjoyed them a lot. Heads - short, so-so. IIRC, shares a bit of the same concept at the end as Blood Music. Eternity - I read this when it came out and enjoyed it, but by the time the sequel came out, I had lost entirely all memory of what this book was about. I have zero recall of its story. It just didn't catch my imagination, I guess. _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
My latest -- OpenSector.org
Sometime in the past few minutes, Mitch Kapor, in his keynote at O'Reilly's Open Source conference in Portland announced my company's latest piece of work, which you can visit at http://www.opensector.org. It's a web site focused on public sector open software initiatives. This has been a bit of a fire drill to have ready this morning; it was only about three weeks ago that we decided to do it, when we saw that one of our big clients and Mitch saw the same opportunity and were both willing to support it. It fits fairly well into what we're doing. A quote from Mitch: There's a tremendous amount of interest in open source in government and education around the world. Until now, there have been few resources to help public sector decision-makers stay current on government initiatives related to Linux and other open source software. We are pleased to have been able to make a small contribution to the launch of OpenSector.org, which promises to be a powerful and useful site for anyone interested in what's going on with open source in the public sector. For those who don't know, Mitch founded Lotus, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and most recently, the Open Software Applications Foundation (http://www.osafoundation.org). My business partner, who's missed at least as much sleep as I have getting this done, is David Land, former publisher of http://java.sun.com, who also developed much of Apple's web site. Feedback is most certainly welcome, as we're mopping up bugs and design flaws, even as we also work on upgrades. For those who wonder about the underlying tech, it is Squishdot running under Plone, which is a Zope CMF gizmo. All of that runs on the same server as this mailing list(!), but it has a Squid caching server as its front end, which is hosted at Verio, so it should be able to handle a fairly hefty load. We're eager for article submissions and looking for volunteer editors, who will review and edit submissions, and have access to some back-end tools that we're building to help find relevant articles. -- Nick Arnett Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
From: Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] _The Mote Arround Mucheson's Eye_ (yes, the sequel to _A Mote in god's Eye_) Hmmm. I thought the sequel to The Mote In God's Eye was The Gripping Hand. Perhaps they titled the book differently in Europe? _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the topic of _/_ by Greg Bear, I may start another thread later about that book, but I wanted to ask, for those who have read more of Greg Bear's books if _/_ represented a One of Greg Bear's better books, was on par with most of his books, or were his other books superior? I ask because I quite liked that novel. It was a bit like pushing a heavy item on wheels. It was a little hard to start reading (mostly because the events at the begining are so disjointed), but once momentum was built up (and events started to tie together), it was difficult to stop reading it. If some people would care to recommend some other Greg Bear books, that would be appreciated. I haven't read (or even heard of) _/_ (or does this mean Slant, which I also haven't read?), but I mostly liked the Greg Bear books I have read: Blood Music, Forge of God, Anvil of Stars: these all had some interesting concepts and I enjoyed them a lot. Heads - short, so-so. IIRC, shares a bit of the same concept at the end as Blood Music. Eternity - I read this when it came out and enjoyed it, but by the time the sequel came out, I had lost entirely all memory of what this book was about. I have zero recall of its story. It just didn't catch my imagination, I guess. Yes, _/_ is also called _Slant_. Thanks for the recommendations. Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much... the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons. - Douglas Adams ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
On 10 Jul 2003 at 13:55, Bryon Daly wrote: From: Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] _The Mote Arround Mucheson's Eye_ (yes, the sequel to _A Mote in god's Eye_) Hmmm. I thought the sequel to The Mote In God's Eye was The Gripping Hand. Perhaps they titled the book differently in Europe? Yep (just checked Amazon). Go figure, I think I prefer the European title :P It's...well. It's no _A Mote in god's Eye_. Still a good read, though. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
Erik wrote: I'd recommend _Moving Mars_ and _Blood Music_ as his best novels. I haven't read _Moving Mars_, but I agree that _Blood Music_ is one of Bear's best. In fact, right now it's my favorite novel by any of the Killer B's. Reggie Bautista _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
Julia wrote: Let's see if I can remember order of publication: Dragonflight Dragonquest The White Dragon Moreta Dragonsdawn Nerilka's Story I think _Nerilka's Story was before Dragonsdawn, and at least two of the HarperHall books were before The White Dragon if I'm not mistaken... The first three on Julia's list make a great trilogy about a colony left alone that has lost much of it's knowledge and is just starting the process of rediscovery. Those three are my favorites from the Pern books, along with _Dragonsdawn_ which tells the story of the founding of the colony. Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Why we cast novels
John Horn wrote: Give me a full-size LP for cover art anyday. Of course, not too many of those left... Bryon Daley replied: I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. I still have the original fold-out LP of News of the World by Queen. I also liked the cover for Physical Graffiti by Led Zeppelin -- IIRC it had cutout windows for a subtle but nice 3d effect. The only really nice work I've seen done on a CD is the multi-panel fold-out on Sting's Soul Cages album, and the nicely textured cover for the LOTR:TTT Special Edition soundtrack CD. Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Why we cast novels
I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. Â It's a real shame: the death of the LP and the small size of CD and tape covers seem to have killed most of that whole art-concept aspect of albums. I miss the cover of Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief (if you've seen it, you know what I mean). Actually, I miss Matching Tie and Handkerchief. Well, I own the LP, but if you've heard it only on CD, you've unfortunately completely missed the joke, which is that is the world's first (and most likely only) three-sided album - they cut two grooves into one side of the vinyl LP, so the record player (what an archaic concept and word!) played first one track and then the other - which is utterly impossible to duplicate on CD. Sigh. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
Michael Harney wrote: I wanted to ask those who have read some/many of the Pern novels a question. I have only read _Dragonseye_ and _The Dolphins of Pern_. The question I have is: Are the events in some of the other pern books more epic? Let me elaborate for clarity. I liked the books, but I found them to be a little lacking in the end because there never seems to be any grand, exciting events in the stories. No major climax to the story. Are the other Pern novels similar, or are there better ones? I thought _Dragonseye_ was one of the weaker Pern novels, and _Dolphins_ was mostly to clean up loose ends left over from _All the Weyrs of Pern_. _All the Weyrs_ is definitely epic, though. The Pern stories take place over a lot of different time periods. If you want to read a more-or-less chronologically straight-through story with an epic ending, read _Dragonflight_, Dragonquest_, _The White Dragon_, _Renegades of Pern_ (which goes back to the time of _Dragonflight_ and then skips through the intervening years to just past the end of _The White Dragon_), and then _All the Weyrs of Pern_. Many Pern fans consider those the core Pern story told over 5 books, and everything else is just filling in the history and backstory. IIRC, _Dragonseye_ takes place several hundred years before the core books. For the history and backstory books, I'd start with _Dragonsdawn_ which covers the original colonization of Pern and the Harperhall trilogy which Julia mentioned (_Dragonsong_, _Dragonsinger_, and _Dragondrums_), which covers the same time period as the first three core books but from the perspective of a couple of characters who are student Harpers (and as a musician, I think these three books are great). Reggie Bautista YMMV Maru _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 11:02 am, John D. Giorgis wrote: ---Original Message--- From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Until someone can produce some convincing evidence (a specimen isn't necessary) then god(s) don't exist. Unforunately Wllliam, you aren't the final arbiter for humanity on the definition of convincing. And see what a mess resulted from that? :) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. - Bertrand Russell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
In a message dated 7/10/2003 12:27:17 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I miss the cover of Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief (if you've seen it, you know what I mean). Actually, I miss Matching Tie and Handkerchief. Well, I own the LP, but if you've heard it only on CD, you've unfortunately completely missed the joke, which is that is the world's first ( and most likely only) three-sided album - they cut two grooves into one side of the vinyl LP, so the record player (what an archaic concept and word!) played first one track and then the other - which is utterly impossible to duplicate on CD. Sigh. The British edition was better than what us herms got. The cover slipped out to reveal the hanged man. It didn't for the US edition. Mad Magazine had a pull out floppy that was at least two sided--one one side. William Taylor -- Gubru Ministry of Silly Squacks ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
On 10 Jul 2003 at 14:47, Reggie Bautista wrote: Michael Harney wrote: I wanted to ask those who have read some/many of the Pern novels a question. I have only read _Dragonseye_ and _The Dolphins of Pern_. The question I have is: Are the events in some of the other pern books more epic? Let me elaborate for clarity. I liked the books, but I found them to be a little lacking in the end because there never seems to be any grand, exciting events in the stories. No major climax to the story. Are the other Pern novels similar, or are there better ones? I thought _Dragonseye_ was one of the weaker Pern novels That has another name in Europe as well, can't remember what it is tho. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: On the topic of atheism. Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:59:35 -0400 On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 05:50:47AM -0400, John D. Giorgis wrote: ---Original Message--- From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Saying that for hundreds or thousands of years, no one has publicized a repeatable experiment demonstrating the existence of some god, therefore, for all practical purposes, god does not exist seems much closer to a scientific statement than a faith statement. What about the Divine Clockmaker theory of God? i.e. that God set the universe into motion with some kind of divine plan, but essentially does not interfere in day-to-day existence on Earth. I believe that this theory is also compatible with belief in life-ever-after and salvation (but I'm sure Dan M. will correct me if I am wrong.) I would characterize this theory of God as being religious, and I also believe that most atheists would disagree with this theory. Yet, doesn't disagreement with this theory require a measure of faith, as Jon has suggested? Disagreement with that (I promised to be more precise in my word choice so I can't use theory here) hypothesis does not require faith. Saying the hypotheis is definitely wrong might, but since, as I said, no repeatable experiments are known to support the hypothesis, disagreement is reasonable. So as long as it's not an absolute disagreement (it could 'never' happen) versus an open-ended one (i could be wrong but it's highly unlikely) it's not faith? Jon Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: On the topic of atheism. Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:28:26 +0100 On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 12:24 am, Reggie Bautista wrote: As was discussed in another branch of this thread, many people *do* feel they have evidence of the divine, in the form of numinous experiences and apparitions and what some people see as a guiding hand in their life, etc. It's just not evidence that lends itself easily to scientific study. Reggie Bautista A feeling you have some evidence is not at all the same thing as actually having some evidence. Just ask Lamarck. :) Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
The British edition was better than what us herms got. The cover slipped out to reveal the hanged man. It didn't for the US edition. Yes it did. At least, mine did. Unless I somehow managed to buy the British edition in a US store. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: HUBBLE HELPS CONFIRM OLDEST KNOWN PLANET
Donald Savage Headquarters, Washington (Phone: 202/358-1547) July 10, 2003 Nancy Neal Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. (Phone: 301/286-0039) Ray Villard Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore (Phone: 410/338-4514) RELEASE: 03-234 HUBBLE HELPS CONFIRM OLDEST KNOWN PLANET Long before our Sun and Earth ever existed, a Jupiter- sized planet formed around a sun-like star. Now, almost 13 billion years later, NASA's Hubble Space Telescope has precisely measured the mass of this farthest and oldest known planet. The ancient planet has had a remarkable history, because it has wound up in an unlikely, rough neighborhood. It orbits a peculiar pair of burned-out stars in the crowded core of a globular star cluster. The new Hubble findings close a decade of speculation and debate as to the true nature of this ancient world, which takes a century to complete each orbit. The planet is 2.5 times the mass of Jupiter. Its very existence provides tantalizing evidence the first planets were formed rapidly, within a billion years of the Big Bang, leading astronomers to conclude planets may be very abundant in the universe. The planet lies near the core of the ancient globular star cluster M4, located 5,600 light-years away in the summer constellation Scorpius. Globular clusters are deficient in heavier elements, because they formed so early in the universe that heavier elements had not been cooked up in abundance in the nuclear furnaces of stars. Some astronomers have therefore argued globular clusters cannot contain planets. This conclusion was bolstered in 1999 when Hubble failed to find close-orbiting hot Jupiter-type planets around the stars of the globular cluster 47 Tucanae. Now, it seems astronomers were just looking in the wrong place, and gas-giant worlds, orbiting at greater distances from their stars, could be common in globular clusters. Our Hubble measurement offers tantalizing evidence that planet formation processes are quite robust and efficient at making use of a small amount of heavier elements. This implies that planet formation happened very early in the universe, said Steinn Sigurdsson of Pennsylvania State University, State College. This is tremendously encouraging that planets are probably abundant in globular star clusters, says Harvey Richer of the University of British Columbia (UBC), Vancouver, Canada. He bases this conclusion on the fact a planet was uncovered in such an unlikely place: orbiting two captured stars, a helium white dwarf and a rapidly spinning neutron star, near the crowded core of a globular cluster. In such a place, fragile planetary systems tend to be ripped apart due to gravitational interactions with neighboring stars. The story of this planet's discovery began in 1988, when the pulsar, called PSR B1620-26, was discovered in M4. It is a neutron star spinning just under 100 times per second and emitting regular radio pulses like a lighthouse beam. The white dwarf was quickly found through its effect on the clock-like pulsar, as the two stars orbited each other twice per year. Sometime later, astronomers noticed further irregularities in the pulsar that implied a third object was orbiting the others. This new object was suspected to be a planet, but it also could have been a brown dwarf or a low- mass star. Debate over its true identity continued through the 1990s. Sigurdsson, Richer, and their co-investigators settled the debate by at last measuring the planet's actual mass through some ingenious celestial detective work. They had exquisite Hubble data from the mid-1990s taken to study white dwarfs in M4. Sifting through these observations, they were able to detect the white dwarf orbiting the pulsar and measure its color and temperature. Using evolutionary models computed by Brad Hansen of the University of California, Los Angeles, the astronomers estimated the white dwarf's mass. This in turn was compared to the amount of wobble in the pulsar's signal, allowing the team to calculate the tilt of the white dwarf's orbit as seen from Earth. When combined with the radio studies of the wobbling pulsar, this critical piece of evidence told them the tilt of the planet's orbit, too, and so the precise mass could at last be known. With a mass of only 2.5 Jupiters, the object is too small to be a star or brown dwarf and must instead be a planet. The planet is likely a gas giant without a solid surface like the Earth. The full team involved in this discovery is composed of Hansen, Richer, Sigurdsson, Ingrid Stairs, UBC, and Stephen Thorsett, University of California in Santa Cruz. Electronic images and additional information are available on the Internet at: http://hubblesite.org/news/2003/19 -end- * * * NASA press releases and other information are available automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message (not the subject line) users should type the words
Re: Re: On the topic of atheism.
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Re: On the topic of atheism. On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 05:53:46AM -0400, John D. Giorgis wrote: ---Original Message--- From: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is impossible to prove that God ...exists... with the exception of anecdotal examples. Why does belief in anecdotal examples constitute faith? Is there some kind of critical mass of anecdotal examples that constitutes proof? Or do you consider belief in evolution to require a similar type of faith as you attribute to being required for belief in God? Because repeatable experiments that give the same results when done by anyone, anytime result in reliable knowledge. Anecdotes and folk tales are not reliable or repeatable. Erik, could you give me a brief rundown on the repeatable experiments performed in the past that tried to prove or disprove the existence of deities or Deity. I'd also like to hear your opinion on the qualities that would make or not make them good science. I know it sounds like I'm being sarcastic or flippant, but you seem to have been convinced at some point by something you consider factual or actual, and I'm curious as to what it was you found to be convincing. xponent Broaden My Horizons Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars query: air pressure in spinning habitats
I goofed in calculating the air pressures in Rama. I hope these calculations are correct! (mapconcat '(lambda (h) Calculate air pressures in a spinning space habitat (format %f \n (let ((e 2.718181828) (R 8.0)) ; radius of habitat (expt e (- (/ (expt (/ h R) 2) (* (/ 5.0 R) 3.45))) '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) ) Pressure Pressure Calculated pressure Altitude ratiogiven in book 0.0 1.00 390 rim (i.e., `surface') 1.0 0.99 387 2.0 0.97 379 3.0 0.94 365 4.0 0.89 347 5.0 0.83 325 6.0 0.77 300 mb 300 7.0 0.70 273 8.0 0.63 245 central spin axis (Calculated pressure is 390 times Pressure-ratio) As I said earlier, humans have a hard time breathing a standard Earthly air mix when the pressure is less than about 40% of sea level, or less than about 400 mb. This is equivalent to an altitude of 6500 meters (21000 ft) on Earth. A rim pressure of 390 mb is doable, but not great. -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
- Original Message - From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: RE: Why we cast novels From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Bryon Daly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] You mean you can actually see the art on those itty-bitty CD cases? Give me a full-size LP for cover art anyday. Of course, not too many of those left... I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. It's a real shame: the death of the LP and the small size of CD and tape covers seem to have killed most of that whole art-concept aspect of albums. LOL When I was 20, my apartment was decorated with Roger Dean. xponent In And Around The Lake Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
Andrew Crystall wrote: On 10 Jul 2003 at 14:47, Reggie Bautista wrote: Michael Harney wrote: I wanted to ask those who have read some/many of the Pern novels a question. I have only read _Dragonseye_ and _The Dolphins of Pern_. The question I have is: Are the events in some of the other pern books more epic? Let me elaborate for clarity. I liked the books, but I found them to be a little lacking in the end because there never seems to be any grand, exciting events in the stories. No major climax to the story. Are the other Pern novels similar, or are there better ones? I thought _Dragonseye_ was one of the weaker Pern novels That has another name in Europe as well, can't remember what it is tho. Hm, I went to amazon.co.uk, and they do list _Dragonseye_. But they also list _Red Star Rising_, which could also be the same novel under a different title. Except they *don't* list _Chronicles of Pern: First Fall_, so that's a more likely candidate for that one. Been awhile since I read either, and between the babies inside me and the toddler in the house, I'm somewhat scatterbrained. :) Debbi, if you're following this thread, McCaffrey has written some non-SF stuff, some of it about women who ride horses. Try _Ring of Fear_ or _The Lady_, unless you absolutely can't stand romances. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
Bryon Daly wrote: I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. It's a real shame: the death of the LP and the small size of CD and tape covers seem to have killed most of that whole art-concept aspect of albums. I'm guessing cost cutting would have killed them anyway... I remember the Alice Cooper LP where he was released from the sanitarium, and the cover had all sorts of folding and sliding panels in all sorts of places, so that it was effectively a cardboard model of the sanitarium, with views in through the windows to the characters mentioned in the songs, and opening doors that let him out etc. Must have cost a fortune to produce compared to a simple card sleeve. I had a Led Zeppelin album which had about 4 covers between you and the vinyl, and my personal favourite - Led Zeppelin's In Through The Out Door - the cover was a bland sepia look, but if you painted it with a wet paintbrush, it came out in vivid colours...wierd but fun. Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: more on printing organs
From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Brin-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: more on printing organs Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 03:26:27 -0500 At 09:33 PM 7/9/03 -0500, The Fool wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3916 Nanotechnology may create new organs Oh. When I read the subject line, I wondered if it was about growing a built-in printer. Though I shudder to contemplate where the paper would come out . . . Well, the end of an appendage might be converted to an inkjet head. I should probably stop speculating here. Jon Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Why we cast novels The British edition was better than what us herms got. The cover slipped out to reveal the hanged man. It didn't for the US edition. Yes it did. At least, mine did. Unless I somehow managed to buy the British edition in a US store. Mine did also. xponent The Records Stuck Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
Bryon Daly wrote: I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. It's a real shame: the death of the LP and the small size of CD and tape covers seem to have killed most of that whole art-concept aspect of albums. I've just bought a box of blank CD's which, instead of the traditional metallic look label on the upper face have a smaller brightly coloured paper centre label, and pseudo vinyl covering on the rest complete with tiny concentric grooves. To look at it in isolation it looks just like a vinyl 45 - way cool for an old fart like me to listen to music on... These are similar, but without the paper label (or a reasonable price-mine were the same as regular CDRs): http://www.benq.com.au/Showproduct.asp?prodID=116 Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
- Original Message - From: Russell Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Why we cast novels Bryon Daly wrote: I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. It's a real shame: the death of the LP and the small size of CD and tape covers seem to have killed most of that whole art-concept aspect of albums. I'm guessing cost cutting would have killed them anyway... I remember the Alice Cooper LP where he was released from the sanitarium, and the cover had all sorts of folding and sliding panels in all sorts of places, so that it was effectively a cardboard model of the sanitarium, with views in through the windows to the characters mentioned in the songs, and opening doors that let him out etc. Schools Out came with a pair of women's panties which by some odd chance I never wore. G xponent All The Young Girls Love Alice Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
- Original Message - From: Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Brin-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:20 PM Subject: Reading lists. I know that this list was originally started as a list dedicated to discussion of specific authors and their books, so I thought I would bring up a topic that is closer to being actually on topic in the little time that I have to compose email today (at least part of the reason that I haven't replied to other threads). I have been reading more than usual recently. Mostly because the air conditioner I have in my room sucks, so leaving my computer on all day makes the room intollerably hot on days when the air conditioner is not working the way it should. It started with reading _Dragonseye_ by Anne McCaffrey (one of the Pern novels). That was followed by reading _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ by Phillip K. Dick. After that I read _/_ by Greg Bear. I am currently reading _Expendable_ by James Alan Gardner. Gardner is a quite good journeyman writer. Expendable is pretty good, but its sequels are even more fun. xponent Read Them All Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
On 10 Jul 2003 at 18:01, Julia Thompson wrote: Andrew Crystall wrote: On 10 Jul 2003 at 14:47, Reggie Bautista wrote: Michael Harney wrote: I wanted to ask those who have read some/many of the Pern novels a question. I have only read _Dragonseye_ and _The Dolphins of Pern_. The question I have is: Are the events in some of the other pern books more epic? Let me elaborate for clarity. I liked the books, but I found them to be a little lacking in the end because there never seems to be any grand, exciting events in the stories. No major climax to the story. Are the other Pern novels similar, or are there better ones? I thought _Dragonseye_ was one of the weaker Pern novels That has another name in Europe as well, can't remember what it is tho. Hm, I went to amazon.co.uk, and they do list _Dragonseye_. But they also list _Red Star Rising_, which could also be the same novel under a different title. Except they *don't* list _Chronicles of Pern: First Fall_, so that's a more likely candidate for that one. Been awhile since I read either, and between the babies inside me and the toddler in the house, I'm somewhat scatterbrained. :) Aha yes, the European name for _Dragonseye_ is _Red Star Rising_. I prefer the European name, again (heh). Then again, most UK printing's cover art tends to be well...not as good. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
In a message dated 7/10/2003 4:14:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The British edition was better than what us herms got. The cover slipped out to reveal the hanged man. It didn't for the US edition. Yes it did. At least, mine did. Unless I somehow managed to buy the British edition in a US store. Mine did also. Maybe there were illegal counterfeit knockoffs! My copy was white, and I remember a US copy with some sort of yellow plaid motif. I first heard Monty Python about the same time I was taping I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again programs off of Friday noon NPR. William Talyot - The well known typing error. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
Robert Seeberger wrote: Erik, could you give me a brief rundown on the repeatable experiments performed in the past that tried to prove or disprove the existence of deities or Deity. I'd also like to hear your opinion on the qualities that would make or not make them good science. And while you're at it, how about a rundown on the repeatable experiments performed in the past that tried to prove or disprove the existence of The easter bunny, the tooth fairy, santa claus and, for that matter, IPUs. I know it sounds like I'm being sarcastic or flippant, but you seem to have been convinced at some point by something you consider factual or actual, and I'm curious as to what it was you found to be convincing. I would say that the burden of proof is on those who claim that something exists despite a complete absence of credible evidence. Question for yourself and the rest of the believers on the list: If you believe in a god, why? What convinced you? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On the topic of atheism.
William T Goodall wrote: What does the coelacanth is extinct mean? And what did it mean 100 years ago? Exactly! You seem to have grasped the point. Until someone can produce some convincing evidence (a specimen isn't necessary) But it would be helpful! 8^) then god(s) don't exist. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
Except that Koufax pitched in Dodger Stadium, off a 20 mound (the mound in Dodger Stadium was illegally high) in an era when the _batting title winner_ hit .301 in the American League, and the HR high was in the low 30s, IIRC. Pedro puts up ERAs similar to Koufax's when the batting title winner hits in the .370s, the HR champion hits 70 HRs, the mound is 10 high, and he does it in _Fenway Park_ (which favors hitters), not Dodger Stadium (then and now the best pitcher's park in MLB). In fact, until Koufax moved to Dodger Stadium, he wasn't an overwhelming pitcher. He was very good, but if I had to pick one pitcher of the post-war era to win a game for me, the list would go something like: 1. Pedro 2. Pedro 3. Tom Seaver 4. Roger Clemens 5. Greg Maddux 6. Koufax And I'm not even sure I'd put him that high. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond but I have been busy and twice a composed responses only to have aol log me out before I can send the response. Gautam - I would have thought you could have come up with something better than this response. Sure Koufax pitched in an era when pitchers had an advantage. The mound was a bit high at Dodgers Stadium (although it actually height is not known; had it been measured and found to be high the team would have had to lower it). But Koufax pitched half his games at other parks. Hitters weren't as successful but using a single league leading batting average which was anomalously low is unfair. There were a few people who could hit then. Mantle Mays Maris Museil (and I still in the M's). Yes Dodger Stadium was a pitcher's park but to attribute Koufaz's success to this is absurd. After all, other people pitched in Dodger stadium but they did not do what Koufax did. Before 61 Koufax was a disappointing pitcher. Leavy argues that it was Dodger mismanagement that messed Koufax up. Alston did not trust or like Koufax and stiffled him for the first 6 years of his career. Koufax started coming on in 61 and was the best pitcher ever from 62 to 66. In those 5 years he won 111 games (22 per year) had an ERA 1.97. He threw 33 shut outs and had 4 no hitters. 4 no hitters in 5 years. No one has approached this sort of dominance. He had 1444 strikeouts (290 per year for god's sake). (to insure that I will be able to continue to rant I am sending this now and will continue in the next post). ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Update
Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course, since Star Control II was a *GREAT* game, at least they're borrowing from the best. :) Ah, Star Control 2. I think that might still be my all-time favorite game. That was a fun one. If there was anything like that out there right now, I might go back to playing computer games. It's definitely one of my top five, at least. I loved how each race had its own soundtrack that helped bring its personality to life. It was funny and fun at the same time. I've never been in a discussion of all-time great computer games where SC2 isn't brought up by a dozen different people. I've never seen a game since that combined adventure elements, role-playing, and arcade-style combat with such phenomenal results. Man, I need to grab a cheapass 486 with Win 3.1 just so I can play it again. :) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 11:20:29AM -0600, Michael Harney wrote: On the topic of _/_ by Greg Bear, I may start another thread later about that book, but I wanted to ask, for those who have read more of Greg Bear's books if _/_ represented a One of Greg Bear's better books, was on par with most of his books, or were his other books superior? I'd say par. Are you aware that _Slash_ was a (loose) sequel to _Queen of Angels_? I'd recommend _Moving Mars_ and _Blood Music_ as his best novels. Another good one is _Eon_. He also has a less-SciFi'ish (fantasy) book, _Songs of Earth and Power_ that was pretty good. I've read Vitals*, Darwin's Radio, Blood Music, Moving Mars, Dinosaur Summer and the Forge of God (Queen of Angels and / are in the queue). I would recommend all of them. Doug *Just finished last week and have been intending to post a comment or two about it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Update
Bryon Daly wrote: From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Of course, since Star Control II was a *GREAT* game, at least they're borrowing from the best. :) Star Control 2 is one of the best games I've ever played. I still occasionally listen to some mp3's of the music from it! Oooh, where'd you get them? There's a group of fans (very slowly) trying to create a new Star Control game: http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/timewarp/ and there's another fan-based project to port it to assorted OS's here: http://sc2.sourceforge.net/ Thanks for the links, Byron. I'll check these out! Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
Koufax continued. Koufax pitched 397 games; he completed 137 and had 40 shut outs (11 in 63 got that 11 shutouts in one year, 7 in 64 and 8 in 65). Koufax pitched 7 ws games. He was 4 and 3 (4 and 2 from 63 on). His ERA was .97. In 63 the Dodgers swept the Yankess a team that won the AL by over 10 games. Kofax won two complete games. He gave up three runs. In 65 he was 2 and 1; his ERA was .37. These numbers demonstate absolute dominance. The counter arguement that he did this in a week hitting era does not prove that he would not have done it in any era. After all ERA is a statistic that has a lower theoretical limit (it cannot be less than 0) and a low practical limit (given the fact that this is a game played by at least 18 humans with a ball that can do peculiar things it seems reasonable to argue that an ERA of 1.00 is essentially perfect (remember WS ERA .97). So With truely outstanding pitchers (ERA around 2.0) ERA cannot be a good metric. So in comparing pitchers of different eras one has to rely on other tools. How about the opinion of other players (pitchers and hitters)? Koufax is almost unanimously rated as the best by players and baseball folks who saw him pitch. People like Bob Feller and Bob Gibson who do not give complements to other pitchers often both had stated he was the best. Hank Aaron another weak hitter from the era sadi the same. See next post ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
part 3 Koufax was big and strong. He had enormous powerful hands. He could hold 6 balls in one hand. He threw two pitches and never varied his release point. He threw fast ball that batters swore sped up. This is of course impossible but what it did not do is slow down (all others do). His speed was 95-100 miles per hour. He threw his curve with the motion but it just dropped at the plate. Gautam would take Pedro in a game against Sandy but would this be a reasonable choice based on actual success in big games. Pedro has won lets see no WS games. Of course that isn't his fault because the Sox didn't get to the Series. They might have. The made the playoffs but Pedro couldn't drag his team over the Yankess to get to the series. Sandy did that for his Dodgers. Pedro pitched against the Yankees on Monday and he was brilliant but not quite brilliant enough. He left the game with score tied 1-1 and the sox lost the game in the 9th. In fact in 20 games against the dreaded Yankees he has won 8 lost 7 and no decisioned 5. So he won 8 in 20. ERA was great but won only 8. Now surely you are saying how unfair this is. It wasn't Pedro's fault that his team failed to score for him that his relief failed. Uh except Koufax's team didn't score for him either. His relief wasn't so great but of course he did not need relief. He completed those games, always in pain often on fumes (in some of the 65 games against the twins he had no curve ball. He won on his fast ball). He won those games. Now based on past performance who would one choose in a game between the current Red Sox and the 65 Dodgers. Remember if the game goes 7 or 8 innings Pedro is out while Koufax is going to keep pitching (he and Gibson once went 12 innnings against each other - guess who won). The arguement about players from different eras usually goes like this. Athletes in the current era are in so much better shape and have so much better coaching that players from prior eras could not compete. Dave Debusscher heard this arguement about the Knicks. They couldn't win because current players were so much stronger. When asked what he and his team mates would have done, he sighed and said We would have worked out. We would have been just as strong and we would be better passers, better long range shooters and better defenders than current players. He was a bit wrong about the last part. People are always the products of their time and culture. So maybe that Knick team would not have been good at fundamental skills. So in comparing Koufax to Pedro it may not be fair to look at complete games. It may not be fair to point out that Koufax rarely missed a start despite serious elbow arthritis that has left him unable to straighten his left arm. Pitchers did that then. Now pitchers and the teams they work for protect their arms. They have MRI scans at the drop of a hat. They go on the DL. Pedro has been shut down for parts of the last few seasons. So Koufax pitching now would not have all those complete games. Like everyone else he would be pitching every 5th day not every 4th day (or on occaison on two days rest as he did in the WS in 65, you know the one where he had and era of .37). He would have lasted longer and almost certainly had more wins. But he might not have been so dominant for any 5 year period. As to Gautam's list. He lists Pedro, Maddux (who has really done well in post season) Clemons and Seaver. Thus the 4 greatest picthers have all pitched in the past 20 years and three are active simultaneously. What are the odds of that? Baseball has been around for over 100 years and its 3 greatest pitchers are active at the same time. Maybe we have a bit of selection bias here? Others have had lists. SI had a list of greatest athletes of the 20th century. There was one pitcher Koufax. No one seriously argued about this. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These numbers demonstate absolute dominance. The counter arguement that he did this in a week hitting era does not prove that he would not have done it in any era. After all ERA is a statistic that has a lower theoretical limit (it cannot be less than 0) and a low practical limit (given the fact that this is a game played by at least 18 humans with a ball that can do peculiar things it seems reasonable to argue that an ERA of 1.00 is essentially perfect (remember WS ERA .97). So With truely outstanding pitchers (ERA around 2.0) ERA cannot be a good metric. So in comparing pitchers of different eras one has to rely on other tools. How about the opinion of other players (pitchers and hitters)? Koufax is almost unanimously rated as the best by players and baseball folks who saw him pitch. People like Bob Feller and Bob Gibson who do not give complements to other pitchers often both had stated he was the best. Hank Aaron another weak hitter from the era sadi the same. Bob, the problem is that _we have other tools_. Win Shares. ERA+. And so on. And they all tell us the same thing. Yes, Koufax pitched half his games outside Doger Stadium. And when he did, he wasn't as good as he was _inside_ Dodger Stadium. Using evidence the way you do, I can prove that Mike Mussina is the best pitcher of all time. You have to have some sort of yardstick. Compared to his era, Pedro's statistics are considerably more dominant. Clemens put together that sort of dominance for 20 years - Koufax had _five_ great seasons. Clemens has more _Cy Youngs_ than Koufax had great seasons. He was never great until he moved to Dodger Stadium. He was great in the easiest era ever for a pitcher to be great. The unreliability of memory is one of the strongest findings from all of psychology - as you surely know far better than I. So I don't really _care_ what Bob Feller thinks about who the best pitcher ever was - if we listened to Feller about pitching we'd have every young pitcher throw 200 pitches a game and blow out their arms. How many times did Koufax face a hitter capable of 70 HRs? 60? 50? Not that many. How many times did he face Mantle in his entire career, actually? Even once? How many times did he face a lineup where every hitter - 1 through 9 - was capable of hitting at least 20 in a season? How many times did he throw off a 10 mound? How many times did he pitch with the modern strike zone, not the one from 1968? Against batters with thin-handled bats with cupped ends? Koufax was a phenomenal pitcher. If he had pitched somewhere other than Dodger Stadium, we'd still remember him as one of the best pitchers ever. But no one would even argue that he was the best pitcher ever. If it's no-hitters you want, Ryan is better. Strikeouts? Who was the first pitcher to strike out 20 batters in a game? The first to do it _twice_? Now, that's not necessarily the most amazing thing in the world, because batters are easier to strike out now than they used to be. But not as easy as they were in Koufax's day, probably. How tough do you think Randy Johnson would be off a 20 mound? Actually, that's your exact comparison right there. Sandy Koufax and Randy Johnson are basically the same pitcher - except Randy has been just as good as Koufax, for longer. I'll actually go a bit farther on one more point. If Koufax weren't Jewish, we wouldn't be having this argument either. There's a sort of halo that surrounds him because he was Jewish and a great athlete. He was. He was a phenomenal pitcher of extraordinary skill with great stuff. But that doesn't make him the best pitcher of all time (take your pick from Tom Seaver, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Roger Clemens). It doesn't make him the single most dominant pitcher of all time. Gibson had a better single season ERA than Koufax ever managed - why not argue for him? He was very, very great. But every piece of evidence for which I am aware argues that there have been other pitchers who were better. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As to Gautam's list. He lists Pedro, Maddux (who has really done well in post season) Clemons and Seaver. Thus the 4 greatest picthers have all pitched in the past 20 years and three are active simultaneously. What are the odds of that? Baseball has been around for over 100 years and its 3 greatest pitchers are active at the same time. Maybe we have a bit of selection bias here? Others have had lists. SI had a list of greatest athletes of the 20th century. There was one pitcher Koufax. No one seriously argued about this. I did. I think that was ridiculous. If you think Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher of all time, you're simply wrong. There is no serious argument for this. If you think he was the most dominant pitcher on a per-game basis you're also wrong, but at least you have a case and we can talk about it. Arguing that he was better than Seaver or Clemens is foolish. He didn't pitch for long enough. Now, I _don't know_ if Walter Johnson or Cy Young was better than Clemens or Seaver. My guess is that they weren't - I have a moderns bias, which puts me in a contentious, but respectable, position in the sabermetric community. I believe that the modern game is so much more difficult (particularly for pitchers, but true for everyone) than the older game that when there is a close call, the tie goes to the modern player. But even if you don't believe this, he still wasn't the best pitcher ever, or even (quite possibly) of his era. But it's just too hard to compare them. But if he isn't the best pitcher since the Second World War, he _certainly_ isn't the best pitcher ever, which is why I talked about post-war pitchers. Note that Pedro is clearly not the best pitcher ever either. The most dominant on a per-game basis? Probably yes. But not the best ever. Too many injuries, too short a career. But as for all your post season arm waving, Bob. Tell me - how many pitches per game did Koufax throw? In a very tough game, probably 120. Pitches per game has gone up year after year after year with the inevitability of the tides. So if Pedro were throwing off a 20 mound, in Dodger Stadium, with a strike zone twice the size of todays, against batters who couldn't hit the ball out of the park if you let them use golf balls - what do you think he would do? Did Koufax's teams really not score for him? I don't think that's the case. Take Dodger Stadium into account, and you will find out (IIRC) that those Dodgers teams hit pretty well, actually. Your argument, Bob, boils down to Koufax was better because those old time players played the exact same game players do today. That pitching in Dodger Stadium off a 20 mound and pitching in Fenway Park off a 10 mound are identical. That pitching to little guys who don't lift weights and think a double is a career highlight is the same as pitching to Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds. Teams hit 200 HRs per season routinely nowadays. How many teams Koufax pitched to could do that? Frankly, if this argument were about anyone except Koufax, _you_ wouldn't take you seriously. Particularly since by _your_ standards, Gibson was better than Koufax, so where's your argument? In fact, though, it _isn't_ the same game. It's not even close. Pedro in his best season was farther ahead of his peers than Koufax was in his best season. So (I would argue) were several other pitchers, but let's leave that one be. For career value - well, it's close now, but I'd probably take Pedro at the moment. I'd take Clemens in a heartbeat over either, though. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars query: air pressure in spinning habitats
Erik Reuter wrote: ... The same as in case 1. Yes, I agree. P/P0 = exp[ - ( h / R )^2 / 3.45 ] Since h/R = 1/5 = 0.2, P/P0 = 0.988 (Although a pressure of .988 bar seems a bit high--a kilometer of height makes a much larger pressure difference on Earth.) As I said before, it does not make sense to make direct numerical comparisons with Earth. Earth has a different potential gradient and is much larger than a 5km habitat. You have a better physical intuition than I do, David, but I think your refusal to work with actual equations and numbers is hampering you here. Thank you. O.K., maybe next week... The potential energy at a height h above the Earth is U = m g h / ( 1 + h / R_e ) Agreed. and the resulting equation for pressure P/P0 = exp[ -( h / R_e )( R_e m g / k / T ) / ( 1 + h / R_e ) ] Sorry, didn't check. but since R_e = 6370km, and h = 1km, (1 + h / R_e) = 1 is an excellent approximation so the formula becomes P/P0 = exp[ -( h / R_e )( R_e m g / k / T ) ] = exp[ -739 ( h / R_e )] I can't find the post where you derived the potential energy at a height h above the rim of a habitat of radius R. So here's mine, assuming artificial gravity on the rim of 1 g. The radius from the axis is R-h, and centrifical force goes as radius, so the force must be (mg/R)*(R-h). We choose the zero of potential energy to be when h = 0, just as in your formula for the Earth. We get this potential U by integrating the force, so we have: U = Integral(0,h) of (mg/R)*(R-t) dt = (mg/R)*[Rt - t^2/2] Evaluate(0,h) = (mg/R)*[Rh - h^2/2] = mgh*[1 - (h/2R)] As you point out above in the case of the Earth, this is also approximately equal to mgh for small h. At 1km on Earth, P/P0 = 0.89, but it is worth repeating again that the formula is different, exp[-h] dependence instead of exp[-h^2], and the radius used in each formula is vastly different. So it is a bad idea to make direct numerical comparisons of pressure gradients between Earth and small, spinning habitats. We're doing a habitat with R = 5, and are considering h = 1. But then [1 - (h/2R)] is .9, which is not that far from 1, and I have trouble seeing why it should make such a huge difference... ---David More math than usual, at least. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Update
From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bryon Daly wrote: From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Of course, since Star Control II was a *GREAT* game, at least they're borrowing from the best. :) Star Control 2 is one of the best games I've ever played. I still occasionally listen to some mp3's of the music from it! Oooh, where'd you get them? The dearly departed Napster. I just went and took a look at them that I actually have the majority of the SC2 music in .mod format, which is actually their original format. I had downloaded some .mp3 music later because the .mod Ur-Quan theme has an odd minor glitch and in seraching Napster, I found some other ones that I didn't have. It seems that the .mp3 versions are ripped from the later 3DO port of Starcon2, and sound a bit different than the PC version I'm used to, so I guess I should have said I still listen to the .mods rather .mp3s. (I have a nice freeware modplayer, but Winamp plays 'em fine). FYI: the .mod format, originally used by Amiga computers, uses small digitized samples as instruments to play the music notes, which makes for a vastly smaller file than digitizing the music itself does. For example, the Quasi-space theme .mp3 file is almost 2 MB, while the quasi-space .mod file is 43 KB! (They are not exactly the same song (since the .mp3 is from the 3DO version), so it's not a directly valid comparison, but it's a decent rough comparison Anyway, I have a zip file with 34 .mods from SC2 - it's about 1.9MB. I'd upload it to my website, but attbi.com converted to Comcast, but I just discovered they didn't convert my web space, which is now apparently gone. I'll have to go eventually through some rigamarole to set it up again, but I don't know when I'll get to that... So if your interested, I can email the file to you (and anyone else who's interested). Also, Winamp plays the .mods fine, but the modplayer I have (Mod4Win) might be of some interest since it provides more info about the music. The .zip for that is 850 KB so I can email that to anyone interested as well. -bryon _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
From: Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aha yes, the European name for _Dragonseye_ is _Red Star Rising_. I prefer the European name, again (heh). Then again, most UK printing's cover art tends to be well...not as good. For the Harry Potter books, I like the UK cover art better, at least judging from Order Of The Phoenix. And I regret the dumbing down of the book 1 title in the US by changing Philosopher's Stone to Sorceror's Stone. -bryon _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. It's a real shame: the death of the LP and the small size of CD and tape covers seem to have killed most of that whole art-concept aspect of albums. LOL When I was 20, my apartment was decorated with Roger Dean. That's exactly who I had in mind! Sadly, that kind of artwork just isn't as cool when it's on a 4 CD cover. -bryon _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
From: Russell Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Must have cost a fortune to produce compared to a simple card sleeve. I had a Led Zeppelin album which had about 4 covers between you and the vinyl, and my personal favourite - Led Zeppelin's In Through The Out Door - the cover was a bland sepia look, but if you painted it with a wet paintbrush, it came out in vivid colours...wierd but fun. I think the Zep album with ~4 covers was In Through The Out Door: It had a brown paper-bag-like cover with the album name stamped on it, the real, heavy cardboard outer cover, a thin white inner cardboard liner (I thought this is what you'd wet to see the picture get colorized), and maybe a paper album liner inside that. I remember asking a friend what the heck he was doing when he started swabbing down my album with a sponge, and him telling me It'll be cool, you'll see. But nothing happened; my album must have been from a later print run where they cut the cost and left out that feature. :-( ahh, memory lane! -bryon _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
SC2 music (was Re: Update)
Bryon Daly wrote: I actually have the majority of the SC2 music in .mod format, which is actually their original format. Anyway, I have a zip file with 34 .mods from SC2 - it's about 1.9MB. So if your interested, I can email the file to you (and anyone else who's interested). Also, Winamp plays the .mods fine, but the modplayer I have (Mod4Win) might be of some interest since it provides more info about the music. The .zip for that is 850 KB so I can email that to anyone interested as well. I'd be interested in both, but after I get back from vacation. I have to clear out a little space at this address to be able to receive them, and I'll probably be best off getting one file, d/ling and deleting, then getting the other. I'll e-mail you after I get back, OK? Thanks! Jim Ur-Quan Master Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
