RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

I think that's a great idea Baz. Makes perfect sense to me. Pay for the
features you need as you grow.



-Original Message-
From: Baz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:21 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


I definitely don't think limiting features is the way to go. In fact I would
like to see the opposite happen. Right now we have CFStandard and
CFEnterprise, which are 2 totally different products, with different
installs, paths and administration. Adding a CFFree to the mix with more
limitations and idiosyncrasies is just going to make things more confusing.
There should only be one CFServer that has ALL functionality including
gateways.


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ryan Guill]

Yeah, it is a very nice feature.  In fact, you can install the
developer edition and then later when you buy the server just put in
the serial number and it just removes all of the restrictions.

On 3/12/06, Baz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I actually did not know that. Things just got a lot nicer...
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ryan Guill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:42 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
> Right, the only difference really is that and what serial number you
> put in.  You can install cf standard and then put in a new enterprise
> serial number and it just starts working as enterprise, with no
> reinstall.
>
> On 3/12/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Right now we have CFStandard and CFEnterprise, which are
> > > 2 totally different products, with different installs,
> > > paths and administration.
> >
> > This isn't quite accurate. The primary difference between installs isn't
> > between CF Standard and Enterprise, but between a J2EE and a standalone
> > server install, both of which can be done with Enterprise.
> >
> > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> > http://www.figleaf.com/
> >
> > Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> > instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> > Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> > Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Baz]

I actually did not know that. Things just got a lot nicer...

 
-Original Message-
From: Ryan Guill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:42 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

Right, the only difference really is that and what serial number you
put in.  You can install cf standard and then put in a new enterprise
serial number and it just starts working as enterprise, with no
reinstall.

On 3/12/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Right now we have CFStandard and CFEnterprise, which are
> > 2 totally different products, with different installs,
> > paths and administration.
>
> This isn't quite accurate. The primary difference between installs isn't
> between CF Standard and Enterprise, but between a J2EE and a standalone
> server install, both of which can be done with Enterprise.
>
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
>
> Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
>
>
> 



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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ryan Guill]

Right, the only difference really is that and what serial number you
put in.  You can install cf standard and then put in a new enterprise
serial number and it just starts working as enterprise, with no
reinstall.

On 3/12/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Right now we have CFStandard and CFEnterprise, which are
> > 2 totally different products, with different installs,
> > paths and administration.
>
> This isn't quite accurate. The primary difference between installs isn't
> between CF Standard and Enterprise, but between a J2EE and a standalone
> server install, both of which can be done with Enterprise.
>
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
>
> Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
>
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> Right now we have CFStandard and CFEnterprise, which are 
> 2 totally different products, with different installs, 
> paths and administration.

This isn't quite accurate. The primary difference between installs isn't
between CF Standard and Enterprise, but between a J2EE and a standalone
server install, both of which can be done with Enterprise.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Baz]

I definitely don't think limiting features is the way to go. In fact I would
like to see the opposite happen. Right now we have CFStandard and
CFEnterprise, which are 2 totally different products, with different
installs, paths and administration. Adding a CFFree to the mix with more
limitations and idiosyncrasies is just going to make things more confusing.
There should only be one CFServer that has ALL functionality including
gateways. The pricing should perhaps be more granular, such as:
 
-0$: limited to 3 IPs (like developer edition today)
-  500$: max of 1 instance/sandbox (similar to CF Standard is today)
- 1000$: max of 2-5 instances/sandboxes
- 2000$: max of 5-20 instances/sandboxes
- 3000$: max of 20-50 instances/sandboxes
- 4000$: unlimited instances/sandboxes (like CF Enterprise is today)

At least like this small shops will be more encouraged to implement secure
environments using sandboxes without having to dish out 5K.

Perhaps a free version could be limited to 3 concurrent connections (rather
than 3 IPs) so that small sites who can't pay can get up and running. When
they start to get popular and grow, it will be a no-brainer to dish out 500$
or 1000$ to upgrade, instead of recoding the whole site in PHP to avoid it:

- 0$: limited to 3 concurrent connections

Just some thoughts,
Baz




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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Mark Drew]

Rick,

That is not the plan for CFEclipse, it wont (as far as I am  
concerned) do any WYSIWYG functions in the near future but there will  
be a lot of improvements and functions going in over the next few  
months.

Its simply not our focus, since we dont particularly want to compete  
with DW

MD
On 1 Mar 2006, at 15:39, Rick Faircloth wrote:

> So...what combination of development tools
> and the compiler would make Flex 2 "not free"...?
>
> And what did he show about CFEclipse that was
> so great?  I don't use it, so I'm not that familiar
> with it.  I'm a WYSIWYG interface developer and I code
> around that, so I perfer WYSIWYG tools.
>
> Will CFEclipse have a WYSIWYG environment in
> upcoming versions?
>
> Thanks for the info...
>
> Rick
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 10:26 AM
>> To: CF-Talk
>> Subject: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>>
>>
>> I just saw Ben Forta speak last night at a Kansas City user group  
>> about
>> Flex 2 and I am sooo excited.  I think there's a chance we can  
>> actually
>> convince my boss to go for it now.
>>
>> One thing I didn't know that Ben said:
>> If you wanted to code your markup in notepad and download the flash
>> compiler for free, you could be using flex 2.0 for absolutely free.
>>
>> Of course, I don't know how you could stand to do that with the sweet
>> stuff he was showing us in CFEclipse.  :)
>>
>> ~Brad
>>
>>
>>
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Munson, Jacob]

> Free use for those who never copy, modify or distribute. As long as
> you never distribute the MySQL Software in any way, you are free to
> use it for powering your application, irrespective of whether your
> application is under GPL license or not.

It's probably obvious, but I wanted to make it clear that 'distribute'
does not refer to putting MySQL behind a public facing web application.
But if you wanted to ship CDs (or downloadable binaries), and include
MySQL with your application, you'd have to buy a license.  I'm not sure
if you could ship it without MySQL, but state that it is required and
then point your customers to the MySQL website (and thus avoid a license
charge).  Seems like a gray area/loophole.  Heck, last I checked the
licenses are pretty cheap anyway.  :)


-

This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential 
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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Mike Chambers]

Yes. That is correct.

The Flex Framework and compiler will be free, and don't require the Flex 
server to integrate with ColdFusion.

mike chambers

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dave Watts wrote:

> According to my understanding, you don't necessarily have to purchase any
> server component at all. You can use Flex to talk to CF applications, web
> services, etc. without any server component. The optional server component
> is very impressive, though - it provides some very useful pieces of
> functionality, like the ability to tie into JMS very easily. As for your
> not-for-profit development team, Adobe may offer alternative pricing for
> different sorts of organizations, so you may be able to get it cheaper than
> I can.
> 
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
> 
> Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[James Holmes]

Also from that site:

Free use for those who never copy, modify or distribute. As long as
you never distribute the MySQL Software in any way, you are free to
use it for powering your application, irrespective of whether your
application is under GPL license or not.

http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/opensource-license.html

On 3/2/06, CF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Actually MySQL is free for commercial use.  The only time you have to
> > buy a license is if you want to redistribute MySQL with a product.
>
> Hmmm... going from http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/
> to the license detail pages, all I could find was, if your software is
> not GPL Licensed and free, you have to pay for MySQL.


--
CFAJAX docs and other useful articles:
http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[CF]

> Actually MySQL is free for commercial use.  The only time you have to
> buy a license is if you want to redistribute MySQL with a product.

Hmmm... going from http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/
to the license detail pages, all I could find was, if your software is
not GPL Licensed and free, you have to pay for MySQL.

Although I don't use MySQL myself, I have friends who use it, so the
information still is interesting to me. I submitted a question
about this "which license for web application use" scenario via their
web site, they should know. 

Best,

Chris


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ken Ferguson]

MySQL is definitely free, even for production use.
--Ferg

CF wrote:
> Hi,
>
>   
>> No MySQL support?  Don't know about that one...since
>> MySQL is free and powerful (I use it) I wouldn't cut that
>> one out...they might start using Access... ;o)
>> 
>
> AFAIK MySQL is not free, at least not for commercial use. But, you are
> definitely right about Access, so better leave the MySQL driver in. ;-) 
>
>   
>> Since you want to be able to introduce the newbies
>> to all the powerful features of CF, would a full-featured
>> free version work if it were limited to one domain?
>> 
>
> There are free alternatives... BlueDragon (for non-commercial use),
> IgniteFusion (upcoming version looks pretty good), and Railo (IMHO
> better than Ignite, targets 6.1 compatibility, very good performance,
> in most parts better performance than the original).
>
> One could easily start with one of these, and, if necessary, switch to
> CF for enterprise projects.
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
>
>
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[dave]

Lets be realistic though, we can't even market coldfusion right so how are 
we/they gunna market those alternitive products? Hell most of us don't even 
know about them.

That's kinda like making a web site with the navigation only being done as 
keyboard shortcuts and having us expect that all the users will know the 
shortcuts...hell I don't even know the damn shortcuts lol.

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: CF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:53 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta 

Hi,

> No MySQL support? Don't know about that one...since
> MySQL is free and powerful (I use it) I wouldn't cut that
> one out...they might start using Access... ;o)

AFAIK MySQL is not free, at least not for commercial use. But, you are
definitely right about Access, so better leave the MySQL driver in. ;-) 

> Since you want to be able to introduce the newbies
> to all the powerful features of CF, would a full-featured
> free version work if it were limited to one domain?

There are free alternatives... BlueDragon (for non-commercial use),
IgniteFusion (upcoming version looks pretty good), and Railo (IMHO
better than Ignite, targets 6.1 compatibility, very good performance,
in most parts better performance than the original).

One could easily start with one of these, and, if necessary, switch to
CF for enterprise projects.

Best,

Chris



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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

It's my understanding that MySQL is free for
any use, except for development which packages
MySQL in the product.

Free alternatives, yes...but if I were Adobe, I'd want
them cutting their teeth on my version of CF server...

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: CF [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:51 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > No MySQL support?  Don't know about that one...since
> > MySQL is free and powerful (I use it) I wouldn't cut that
> > one out...they might start using Access... ;o)
> 
> AFAIK MySQL is not free, at least not for commercial use. But, you are
> definitely right about Access, so better leave the MySQL driver in. ;-) 
> 
> > Since you want to be able to introduce the newbies
> > to all the powerful features of CF, would a full-featured
> > free version work if it were limited to one domain?
> 
> There are free alternatives... BlueDragon (for non-commercial use),
> IgniteFusion (upcoming version looks pretty good), and Railo (IMHO
> better than Ignite, targets 6.1 compatibility, very good performance,
> in most parts better performance than the original).
> 
> One could easily start with one of these, and, if necessary, switch to
> CF for enterprise projects.
> 



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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Munson, Jacob]

> AFAIK MySQL is not free, at least not for commercial use. But, you are
> definitely right about Access, so better leave the MySQL 
> driver in. ;-) 

Actually MySQL is free for commercial use.  The only time you have to
buy a license is if you want to redistribute MySQL with a product.


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[CF]

Hi,

> No MySQL support?  Don't know about that one...since
> MySQL is free and powerful (I use it) I wouldn't cut that
> one out...they might start using Access... ;o)

AFAIK MySQL is not free, at least not for commercial use. But, you are
definitely right about Access, so better leave the MySQL driver in. ;-) 

> Since you want to be able to introduce the newbies
> to all the powerful features of CF, would a full-featured
> free version work if it were limited to one domain?

There are free alternatives... BlueDragon (for non-commercial use),
IgniteFusion (upcoming version looks pretty good), and Railo (IMHO
better than Ignite, targets 6.1 compatibility, very good performance,
in most parts better performance than the original).

One could easily start with one of these, and, if necessary, switch to
CF for enterprise projects.

Best,

Chris


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

But there's the rub...PHP and ASP allow the *crap*
to be developed along with the good stuff.  People
who need to spend money on the Professional or
Enterprise versions should be smart enough to
fully investigate the capabilities of the product.  The


The more you try to protect the product and stifle
creativity for fear of *abuse* the less used it will be.

Why do you think we have high school orchestras?
It's certainly not for the performance quality...

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:14 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> > See my reply to Ian..not even a student wants to
> > develop something no one can see or use...
> 
> 2 IPsthey can show it to whomever they wish...reset IP as needed.
> 
> Now if you mean make publicly accessible sitethey SHOULD have 
> to pay for 
> hosting...period.  If not then chaos ensues when every student on 
> the planet has 
> a free hosting account ;-)  I think you'll see it could get ugly 
> and result in 
> total crap that is suppoed to "represent CF".



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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

Not familiar with that but it sounds interesting.

Anything to get an offering of CF to let the kids
play for free...

> -Original Message-
> From: Donnie Bachan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:59 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> > > > I wonder, however, since many "cutting edge" developers
> > > > tend to be college students who have no money and are
> > > > out to see what they can do, how CF would compete
> > > > if it were free or at least less expensive...
> 
> 
> Maybe Adobe can release a tool for creating a portable archive file
> (war/ear/jar) that you can just dump into a free J2EE
> server.similar to what they are doing with Flex. It is already
> possible with the enterprise version of CF. A free version of this
> tool may give some of those new developers incentive to develop in it
> since they will not need to pay for the server .



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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[dave]

I said since day 1 when adobe was annouced taking over that they should have a 
free version, especially with their already deep roots in the schools.

But you can't take out some of the stuff like cfmail, hell just give schools a 
license.

The funny thing is cfmail could be one of the biggest reasons to actually give 
it to them. You see all these designers and such make these flash apps and the 
only processing they use is for sending mail, like a contact form and so of 
course they are taught php to do it. Then when they get in the real world and 
have to learn more programming they of course go with php. Now if the school 
had cfm they of course could learn that mail tag a lot quicker and then they'd 
probably continue on with cfm because that's human nature, it's not rocket 
science either.

One of the biggest pitfalls for cfm is that these students are taught in school 
that coldfusion is very expensive and it will cost them $1200 just to try it, 
so of course they stay well clear of it. These are ppl that use shared hosting 
and as we all know means they don't actually have to pay anything for for cfm 
but instead they go to php. That and since php has so many "free" apps but 
thats our fault.

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: "Mark Fuqua" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:03 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta 

Free ColdFusion could work. It would have to work for Adobe too though.
How about adding one more level...

ColdFusion Basic FREE no cfmail, cfchart, cfr's, cfc's, cfforms, no
mysql support (essentially the old free version of Blue dragon). License
limited to one domain.

ColdFusion Standard (renamed professional?) 1200 (although 900 looks better)

ColdFusion Enterprise $5000

Adobe would benefit from increased market/developer share as more people
became acquainted with the power and simplicity of ColdFusion, then the
benefit of ColdFusion "Professional" for 1200 would be easy to grasp. And
once a company needs enterprise level software, $5k is not much, especially
if all your apps already run on coldfusion.

Mark





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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

Did they work for you or were they making the
choices about what langauge they would use?

And...more importantly, were they footing any
bills associated with their work?

Rick


> -Original Message-
> From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:46 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> Thats interesting since over the past 6+ years I have worked with a lot of
> students who did CF work.
>
> On 3/2/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > See my reply to Ian..not even a student wants to
> > develop something no one can see or use...
> >
> >
>
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

Sounds like a winner!  (But leave the CFMail...that's
a great outreach tool that would be used to send email
promoting Cold Fusion...anything that helps get into
an inbox is invaluable, therefore CF takes on a huge
value just with that feature...)

No MySQL support?  Don't know about that one...since
MySQL is free and powerful (I use it) I wouldn't cut that
one out...they might start using Access... ;o)

Since you want to be able to introduce the newbies
to all the powerful features of CF, would a full-featured
free version work if it were limited to one domain?

Would that hurt Adobe too much?

Rick


> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Fuqua [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:38 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> Free ColdFusion could work.  It would have to work for Adobe too though.
> How about adding one more level...
>
> ColdFusion Basic  FREE no cfmail,
> cfchart, cfr's, cfc's, cfforms, no
> mysql support (essentially the old free version of Blue dragon).  License
> limited to one domain.
>
> ColdFusion Standard (renamed professional?) 1200 (although 900
> looks better)
>
> ColdFusion Enterprise $5000
>
> Adobe would benefit from increased market/developer share as more people
> became acquainted with the power and simplicity of ColdFusion, then the
> benefit of ColdFusion "Professional" for 1200 would be easy to grasp.  And
> once a company needs enterprise level software, $5k is not much,
> especially
> if all your apps already run on coldfusion.
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:11 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> Hmmm...
>
> So CFEclipse must not be a good tool then. Open Office must not be good.
> Winamp, the Flash player, Linux. All of those must be total trash because
> they're free.
>
> The point I'm wanted to make is that I love ColdFusion and want it to
> succeed. Some clients/companies simply can't get past the fact
> that CF costs
> $1200 minimum to get into ColdFusion when PHP is "free". You and
> I both know
> the pros and cons to "free" software like PHP, but the client doesn't see
> past the dollars signs.
>
> And by the way...I said ColdFusion should be free...my names Andy
> Matthews.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>
>
>
>
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Bryan Stevenson]

> See my reply to Ian..not even a student wants to
> develop something no one can see or use...

2 IPsthey can show it to whomever they wish...reset IP as needed.

Now if you mean make publicly accessible sitethey SHOULD have to pay for 
hosting...period.  If not then chaos ensues when every student on the planet 
has 
a free hosting account ;-)  I think you'll see it could get ugly and result in 
total crap that is suppoed to "represent CF".

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

Mark...

I think that could be a great idea.



-Original Message-
From: Mark Fuqua [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:38 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Free ColdFusion could work.  It would have to work for Adobe too though.
How about adding one more level...

ColdFusion BasicFREE no cfmail, cfchart, cfr's, 
cfc's, cfforms, no
mysql support (essentially the old free version of Blue dragon).  License
limited to one domain.

ColdFusion Standard (renamed professional?) 1200 (although 900 looks better)

ColdFusion Enterprise   $5000

Adobe would benefit from increased market/developer share as more people
became acquainted with the power and simplicity of ColdFusion, then the
benefit of ColdFusion "Professional" for 1200 would be easy to grasp.  And
once a company needs enterprise level software, $5k is not much, especially
if all your apps already run on coldfusion.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:11 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Hmmm...

So CFEclipse must not be a good tool then. Open Office must not be good.
Winamp, the Flash player, Linux. All of those must be total trash because
they're free.

The point I'm wanted to make is that I love ColdFusion and want it to
succeed. Some clients/companies simply can't get past the fact that CF costs
$1200 minimum to get into ColdFusion when PHP is "free". You and I both know
the pros and cons to "free" software like PHP, but the client doesn't see
past the dollars signs.

And by the way...I said ColdFusion should be free...my names Andy Matthews.








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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Donnie Bachan]

> > > I wonder, however, since many "cutting edge" developers
> > > tend to be college students who have no money and are
> > > out to see what they can do, how CF would compete
> > > if it were free or at least less expensive...


Maybe Adobe can release a tool for creating a portable archive file
(war/ear/jar) that you can just dump into a free J2EE
server.similar to what they are doing with Flex. It is already
possible with the enterprise version of CF. A free version of this
tool may give some of those new developers incentive to develop in it
since they will not need to pay for the server .


--
Donnie Bachan
Website: http://www.islandwizards.com
Blog: http://angrytrini.blogspot.com
"Nitendo Vinces - By Striving You Shall Conquer"
==
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
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taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Josh Nathanson]

>> I wonder, however, since many "cutting edge" developers
>> tend to be college students who have no money and are
>> out to see what they can do, how CF would compete
>> if it were free or at least less expensive...
>
> Rick...it is free to use to play with..developer version...so I don't see 
> your
> point

With the very small caveat that you have to pay for CF hosting somewhere, a 
few bucks a month.

-- Josh


- Original Message - 
From: "Bryan Stevenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" 
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


>
> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
> Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
> phone: 250.480.0642
> fax: 250.480.1264
> cell: 250.920.8830
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.electricedgesystems.com
>
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Mark Fuqua]

Free ColdFusion could work.  It would have to work for Adobe too though.
How about adding one more level...

ColdFusion BasicFREE no cfmail, cfchart, cfr's, 
cfc's, cfforms, no
mysql support (essentially the old free version of Blue dragon).  License
limited to one domain.

ColdFusion Standard (renamed professional?) 1200 (although 900 looks better)

ColdFusion Enterprise   $5000

Adobe would benefit from increased market/developer share as more people
became acquainted with the power and simplicity of ColdFusion, then the
benefit of ColdFusion "Professional" for 1200 would be easy to grasp.  And
once a company needs enterprise level software, $5k is not much, especially
if all your apps already run on coldfusion.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:11 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Hmmm...

So CFEclipse must not be a good tool then. Open Office must not be good.
Winamp, the Flash player, Linux. All of those must be total trash because
they're free.

The point I'm wanted to make is that I love ColdFusion and want it to
succeed. Some clients/companies simply can't get past the fact that CF costs
$1200 minimum to get into ColdFusion when PHP is "free". You and I both know
the pros and cons to "free" software like PHP, but the client doesn't see
past the dollars signs.

And by the way...I said ColdFusion should be free...my names Andy Matthews.






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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Aaron Rouse]

Thats interesting since over the past 6+ years I have worked with a lot of
students who did CF work.

On 3/2/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> See my reply to Ian..not even a student wants to
> develop something no one can see or use...
>
>


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

> But one can get CF hosting accounts for a very 
> reasonable rate these days, albeit not free.

Good point...perhaps Adobe should consider setting
up some free hosting accounts with basic CF features,
to allow students to use CF *publicly*...I think a development
version is a waste of hard drive space, except for those
who are developing for production.

No students wants to develop and then not be able to
show off his work...

The key is to get new developers in the door and I think
the best "breeding ground" for developers is in the colleges.
I remember being in college and there were times when
it wouldn't have been possible to pay for hosting...especially
an account that provides CF.

And yes, I think there are free CF accounts (?), but how many
college kids know about them?  Adobe should start a massive
outreach program to provide free accounts for verifiable students.

Hosted at Adobe...free students for registered, verifiable students
who want to see what they can do.  They develop portfolios
and free components for the CF community because they can
afford to work for free and have time to kill.

Give 'em the goodies at first and they'll pay for them later once
they're hooked...how do you think crack sellers work?

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: Ian Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:25 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> Perhaps Adobe should consider a version which lacks
> advanced features to offer for free...that would give students 
> something to play with, learn from, and grow comfortable with. 
> And give small business (especially single developers) a start 
> with the server, begin to make money, then invest in more 
> advanced versions.  I see software vendors doing this all the time.
> 
> Would this be something like Adobe's nee Macromedia's Free 
> Developer edition?  This is exactly how I got started with CF 
> back in 1996/97 during the 4.5 days.  And is the version I still 
> do all my development in.  And the developer version doesn't even 
> lack advanced features, just lacks the ability to be run on a 
> public server.  But one can get CF hosting accounts for a very 
> reasonable rate these days, albeit not free.
> 
> 
> --
> Ian Skinner
> Web Programmer
> BloodSource
> www.BloodSource.org
> Sacramento, CA
> 
> -
> | 1 |   |
> -  Binary Soduko
> |   |   |
> -
>  
> "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
> - Cynthia Dunning
> 
> Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any
> attachments is for the sole use of the intended
> recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> intended recipient, please contact the sender and
> delete any copies of this message. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

See my reply to Ian..not even a student wants to 
develop something no one can see or use...

> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:28 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> > I wonder, however, since many "cutting edge" developers
> > tend to be college students who have no money and are
> > out to see what they can do, how CF would compete
> > if it were free or at least less expensive...
> 
> Rick...it is free to use to play with..developer version...so I 
> don't see your 
> point
> 
> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
> Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
> phone: 250.480.0642
> fax: 250.480.1264
> cell: 250.920.8830
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.electricedgesystems.com 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Bryan Stevenson]

> I wonder, however, since many "cutting edge" developers
> tend to be college students who have no money and are
> out to see what they can do, how CF would compete
> if it were free or at least less expensive...

Rick...it is free to use to play with..developer version...so I don't see your 
point

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ian Skinner]

Perhaps Adobe should consider a version which lacks
advanced features to offer for free...that would give students something to 
play with, learn from, and grow comfortable with. And give small business 
(especially single developers) a start with the server, begin to make money, 
then invest in more advanced versions.  I see software vendors doing this all 
the time.

Would this be something like Adobe's nee Macromedia's Free Developer edition?  
This is exactly how I got started with CF back in 1996/97 during the 4.5 days.  
And is the version I still do all my development in.  And the developer version 
doesn't even lack advanced features, just lacks the ability to be run on a 
public server.  But one can get CF hosting accounts for a very reasonable rate 
these days, albeit not free.


--
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA

-
| 1 |   |
-  Binary Soduko
|   |   |
-
 
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

Concerning CF server cost...

I wonder, however, since many "cutting edge" developers
tend to be college students who have no money and are
out to see what they can do, how CF would compete
if it were free or at least less expensive...  I don't think
the "kids" would purposefully use a less-intuitive language
just for the fun of it.  Thost "kids" who can afford PHP and
ASP in college and grow used to it become the developers
who sway organizations to use those languages instead
of CF when it comes time for them to develop for profit
and for a company.

Perhaps Adobe should consider a version which lacks
advanced features to offer for free...that would give students
something to play with, learn from, and grow comfortable with.
And give small business (especially single developers) a start
with the server, begin to make money, then invest in more
advanced versions.  I see software vendors doing this all the time.

And I don't think charging for CF server is unreasonable.
I think it's perfectly normal for it to cost money.  I make
money from it...

(I do think the upgrade prices are too high...50%...to much...
way abovethe norm for the range of products I use, which
tend to be non-enterprise and *part* of the reason I'm still
using 4.5.2, and happily so...I know it, understand it, and
it does all I need to do at this point.)

Rick



> -Original Message-
> From: Josh Nathanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:56 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> +1 for Tom Harris.  Seems like software is the only industry where people
> expect free products.  Since CF is presumably making us all money
> in one way
> or another it's only fair that Adobe should also make money on
> the product.
> Flex has huge potential to create a better end user experience, thus
> ultimately making us developers more money and so easily
> justifies the price
> tag.
>
> I was amazed when I got into CF and found out the developer
> edition is free.
> Since I use shared hosting, CF is essentially free for me.  I
> would gladly
> pay some kind of a subscription or up front fee to use developer
> edition if
> it was imposed and it seemed reasonable.  To me the reason CF has
> been slow
> to catch on is not because it isn't free, but because of crusty C++ and
> Windows guys who think PHP or ASP is the greatest thing since
> sliced bread
> (my boss is one of those guys).  Also some programmers (no one on
> this list
> obviously) tend to be stubborn and unwilling to learn new technologies.
>
> -- Josh
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Tom Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Talk" 
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:28 AM
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> > Regarding the anticipated pricing of FlexBuilder: What is it with all
> > you people who think everything should be free?  Are cars and houses
> > free?  Are bread and milk free?  Do you work for free?  If you think
> > everything should be free, then you need to stop billing your clients
> > for work, or stop accepting paychecks from your employer.  Or maybe it's
> > that YOU get to charge money for YOUR services, but you shouldn't have
> > to pay anyone else for their services... is that it?  Maybe some day, in
> > some bright and shining utopian wonderland, everything will be free.  In
> > the meantime, do those of you who constantly bitch about everything
> > costing money know ANYTHING about BUSINESS at all?  I cannot believe
> > that someone on this list actually said they think CF should be free!
> >
> > As far as FlexBuilder goes, I think $2000 would still be a bargain.
> >
> > As someone once said, "If you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on
> > the porch!"  Or, if you can't afford to buy good tools, there are always
> > the free ones.  But quit complaining that good tools cost money -- they
> > always have and they always will.
> >
> > I just needed to vent.  The best to you all.
> >
> > Tom Harris
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

Hmmm...

So CFEclipse must not be a good tool then. Open Office must not be good.
Winamp, the Flash player, Linux. All of those must be total trash because
they're free.

The point I'm wanted to make is that I love ColdFusion and want it to
succeed. Some clients/companies simply can't get past the fact that CF costs
$1200 minimum to get into ColdFusion when PHP is "free". You and I both know
the pros and cons to "free" software like PHP, but the client doesn't see
past the dollars signs.

And by the way...I said ColdFusion should be free...my names Andy Matthews.



-Original Message-
From: Tom Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 1:28 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Regarding the anticipated pricing of FlexBuilder: What is it with all
you people who think everything should be free?  Are cars and houses
free?  Are bread and milk free?  Do you work for free?  If you think
everything should be free, then you need to stop billing your clients
for work, or stop accepting paychecks from your employer.  Or maybe it's
that YOU get to charge money for YOUR services, but you shouldn't have
to pay anyone else for their services... is that it?  Maybe some day, in
some bright and shining utopian wonderland, everything will be free.  In
the meantime, do those of you who constantly bitch about everything
costing money know ANYTHING about BUSINESS at all?  I cannot believe
that someone on this list actually said they think CF should be free!

As far as FlexBuilder goes, I think $2000 would still be a bargain.

As someone once said, "If you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on
the porch!"  Or, if you can't afford to buy good tools, there are always
the free ones.  But quit complaining that good tools cost money -- they
always have and they always will.

I just needed to vent.  The best to you all.

Tom Harris





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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ken Ferguson]

This is the point that's got me laughing now. I was leading the 
bitch-fest about Flex costing so freakin' much for the server... Now I'm 
incredibly exited that the cost is being so drastically reduced. I'm 
finally going to get to do some cool Flex work, Yppp! And now I 
see people complaining about that too! I'm certain you'd waste no time 
finding something else to complain about if they made the IDE free. I'm 
convinced that some of you chuckleheads would complain about a penny 
pitcher of beer, just because it wasn't free!

--Ferg

Ian Skinner wrote:
> Lets not forget that Flex is currently a $12,000 product that requires it's 
> own server to run and can't even be run on shared servers.
>
> So they are dropping the price over 90% and making it serverless and anywhere 
> deployable, i think thats a pretty good deal!
>
> Especially with the kinda $$ you can quickly make off of it.
>
> ~Dave the disruptor~ 
>
> Just a point of consideration, the current Flex is the IDE and the FES (Flex 
> Enterprise Server).  The price of the Flex2 FES has not been announced.  Ben 
> Forta did say that he expects the price barrier for FES would be greatly 
> reduced for Flex2, but could not be more specific then that.  He also gave an 
> interesting explanation on the price point for the current Flex version.
>
> But the point is that the IDE price of "less then $1000" does not include the 
> FES that will be some kind of extra cost, IF YOU NEED/WANT it. 
>
> The neat thing is that you should only need or want the FES if you are 
> building applications that will push data from a server to the clients.  To 
> pull data in Flex2 does not require FES and can be done for free, as long as 
> you don't mind coding in an alternate IDE.
>
>
> --
> Ian Skinner
> Web Programmer
> BloodSource
> www.BloodSource.org
> Sacramento, CA
>
> -
> | 1 |   |
> -  Binary Soduko
> |   |   |
> -
>  
> "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
> - Cynthia Dunning
>
> Confidentiality Notice:  This message including any
> attachments is for the sole use of the intended
> recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> intended recipient, please contact the sender and
> delete any copies of this message. 
>
>
>
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Russ]

I'm sorry... typo... meant to say Flash 8.5... 

> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:29 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> > For those just joining us, we're talking about Flex2, which requires
> Flash
> > 8.5.
> >
> > russ
> 
> Thanks Russ...gee I hadn't noticed ;-)
> 
> That still does not explain why you'd need CF to update a Flash Player!!
> for your refernce:
> 
> > >I haven't tried it, but my guess is the reason it doesn't work is
> because
> > CF
> > > 8.5 isn't released yet, and therefore not part of the auto update.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
> Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
> phone: 250.480.0642
> fax: 250.480.1264
> cell: 250.920.8830
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.electricedgesystems.com
> 
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ken Ferguson]

"Also some programmers (no one on this list obviously) tend to be 
stubborn and unwilling to learn new technologies."

Hey wait a second, I resemble that remark!!!
--Ferg

Josh Nathanson wrote:
> +1 for Tom Harris.  Seems like software is the only industry where people 
> expect free products.  Since CF is presumably making us all money in one way 
> or another it's only fair that Adobe should also make money on the product. 
> Flex has huge potential to create a better end user experience, thus 
> ultimately making us developers more money and so easily justifies the price 
> tag.
>
> I was amazed when I got into CF and found out the developer edition is free. 
> Since I use shared hosting, CF is essentially free for me.  I would gladly 
> pay some kind of a subscription or up front fee to use developer edition if 
> it was imposed and it seemed reasonable.  To me the reason CF has been slow 
> to catch on is not because it isn't free, but because of crusty C++ and 
> Windows guys who think PHP or ASP is the greatest thing since sliced bread 
> (my boss is one of those guys).  Also some programmers (no one on this list 
> obviously) tend to be stubborn and unwilling to learn new technologies.
>
> -- Josh
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tom Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Talk" 
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:28 AM
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
>   
>> Regarding the anticipated pricing of FlexBuilder: What is it with all
>> you people who think everything should be free?  Are cars and houses
>> free?  Are bread and milk free?  Do you work for free?  If you think
>> everything should be free, then you need to stop billing your clients
>> for work, or stop accepting paychecks from your employer.  Or maybe it's
>> that YOU get to charge money for YOUR services, but you shouldn't have
>> to pay anyone else for their services... is that it?  Maybe some day, in
>> some bright and shining utopian wonderland, everything will be free.  In
>> the meantime, do those of you who constantly bitch about everything
>> costing money know ANYTHING about BUSINESS at all?  I cannot believe
>> that someone on this list actually said they think CF should be free!
>>
>> As far as FlexBuilder goes, I think $2000 would still be a bargain.
>>
>> As someone once said, "If you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on
>> the porch!"  Or, if you can't afford to buy good tools, there are always
>> the free ones.  But quit complaining that good tools cost money -- they
>> always have and they always will.
>>
>> I just needed to vent.  The best to you all.
>>
>> Tom Harris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Carabetta]

On 3/2/06, dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lets not forget that Flex is currently a $12,000 product that requires it's 
> own server to run and can't even be run on shared servers.
>
> So they are dropping the price over 90% and making it serverless and anywhere 
> deployable, i think thats a pretty good deal!
>
> Especially with the kinda $$ you can quickly make off of it.
>

Actually, Flex is now $29,000 USD. They dropped the $12K offering a
long time ago in favor of a package that includes Flex plus support
and maintenance. At least, that's what our sales rep told us.

Regards,
Dave.

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ian Skinner]

Lets not forget that Flex is currently a $12,000 product that requires it's own 
server to run and can't even be run on shared servers.

So they are dropping the price over 90% and making it serverless and anywhere 
deployable, i think thats a pretty good deal!

Especially with the kinda $$ you can quickly make off of it.

~Dave the disruptor~ 

Just a point of consideration, the current Flex is the IDE and the FES (Flex 
Enterprise Server).  The price of the Flex2 FES has not been announced.  Ben 
Forta did say that he expects the price barrier for FES would be greatly 
reduced for Flex2, but could not be more specific then that.  He also gave an 
interesting explanation on the price point for the current Flex version.

But the point is that the IDE price of "less then $1000" does not include the 
FES that will be some kind of extra cost, IF YOU NEED/WANT it. 

The neat thing is that you should only need or want the FES if you are building 
applications that will push data from a server to the clients.  To pull data in 
Flex2 does not require FES and can be done for free, as long as you don't mind 
coding in an alternate IDE.


--
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA

-
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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Josh Nathanson]

+1 for Tom Harris.  Seems like software is the only industry where people 
expect free products.  Since CF is presumably making us all money in one way 
or another it's only fair that Adobe should also make money on the product. 
Flex has huge potential to create a better end user experience, thus 
ultimately making us developers more money and so easily justifies the price 
tag.

I was amazed when I got into CF and found out the developer edition is free. 
Since I use shared hosting, CF is essentially free for me.  I would gladly 
pay some kind of a subscription or up front fee to use developer edition if 
it was imposed and it seemed reasonable.  To me the reason CF has been slow 
to catch on is not because it isn't free, but because of crusty C++ and 
Windows guys who think PHP or ASP is the greatest thing since sliced bread 
(my boss is one of those guys).  Also some programmers (no one on this list 
obviously) tend to be stubborn and unwilling to learn new technologies.

-- Josh


- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" 
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


> Regarding the anticipated pricing of FlexBuilder: What is it with all
> you people who think everything should be free?  Are cars and houses
> free?  Are bread and milk free?  Do you work for free?  If you think
> everything should be free, then you need to stop billing your clients
> for work, or stop accepting paychecks from your employer.  Or maybe it's
> that YOU get to charge money for YOUR services, but you shouldn't have
> to pay anyone else for their services... is that it?  Maybe some day, in
> some bright and shining utopian wonderland, everything will be free.  In
> the meantime, do those of you who constantly bitch about everything
> costing money know ANYTHING about BUSINESS at all?  I cannot believe
> that someone on this list actually said they think CF should be free!
>
> As far as FlexBuilder goes, I think $2000 would still be a bargain.
>
> As someone once said, "If you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on
> the porch!"  Or, if you can't afford to buy good tools, there are always
> the free ones.  But quit complaining that good tools cost money -- they
> always have and they always will.
>
> I just needed to vent.  The best to you all.
>
> Tom Harris
>
>
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[dave]

Lets not forget that Flex is currently a $12,000 product that requires it's own 
server to run and can't even be run on shared servers.

So they are dropping the price over 90% and making it serverless and anywhere 
deployable, i think thats a pretty good deal!

Especially with the kinda $$ you can quickly make off of it.

~Dave the disruptor~ 





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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Brad Wood]

> >I haven't tried it, but my guess is the reason it doesn't work is
because
> CF
> > 8.5 isn't released yet, and therefore not part of the auto update.

I'm assuming that was a typo and they meant "Flash 8.5 hasn't been
released yet".


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ian Skinner]

That still does not explain why you'd need CF to update a Flash Player!! for 
your refernce:

> >I haven't tried it, but my guess is the reason it doesn't work is 
> >because
> CF
> > 8.5 isn't released yet, and therefore not part of the auto update.

Cheers

I'm going to speculate "typo" and he meant Flash, not CF.  CF is a ways away 
from an 8.5 version since it is currently only on 7.01.





--
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA

-
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"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Nick Han]

If Adobe could get their return of investment solely through tech
support revenue stream, they would have gone that route.  The business
reality is they want to get their return of investment and return on
investment for their shareholders in the relative shortest timeframe.



-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:09 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

Tech support. Plenty of companies make their money supporting free
products.



-Original Message-
From: Nick Han [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 12:24 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


>Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
>complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
>because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to
proliferate.
>It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would
be >using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.

Andy,
A company's primary purpose for its existence is to make money.
If CF were made available for free, who is going to pay for the
developers' time and product support?  ASP is not really free if you
think about it.  Microsoft had already factored in the costs of ASP into
the price of every copy of Windows OS sold.

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

Actually, yes, I do think that $1200 for the server is excessive. Seeing
as
how CF is the ONLY language that makes you pay for the engine.

PHP = free
ASP = free (with the windows OS)
Java = free ( I beleive )
Perl = free
Python = free
Ruby = free

Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to proliferate.
It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would
be
using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.



-Original Message-
From: Ryan Guill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:25 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Do you use coldfusion?  You know it competes against other products
that can do the same thing, and some of those options are free right?
PHP, ASP, RoR, etc?

Did you pay for the coldfusion server?  or do you use a hosting plan
that you pay for that costs more than some of the other options?  Do
you think that 12xx for coldfusion is excessive?

Of course they could release coldfusion for less money, but it costs
money to develop the software, to maintain it, to train on it, etc.
They think 12xx for the server is a pretty good price and so do plenty
of corporations / developers.

The point is, that while you can get other software that may be
cheaper or even free, its worth paying for because you are getting
value for your money.  While you may pay 1000 for flexbuilder, while
you could get some other product for free, flexbuilder is going to
allow you to do more faster, increasing your return on investment.

Also, if you dont like eclipse, or flexbuilder, use whatever xml /
actionscript editor you want.  You can get the compiler and flex
framework for free...

Just realize that you aren't going to have the IDE thats going to make
everything easier for you.  But I dont see 1000 per developer as
excessive at all for the power that you get out of flexbuilder.

Truth is, i dont see why anyone is trying to convince you... If you
dont use it, it just means less competition later... ;)

On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it
several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all
of
> you are raving about.
>
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do,
the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same
thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive
for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>

--
Ryan Guill
BlueEyesDevelopment
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.ryanguill.com
(270) 217.2399
got google talk?  Chat me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Coldfusion Open Application Library - COAL -
http://coal.ryanguill.com

Use CF and SQL? Try qBrowser - http://www.ryanguill.com/docs/

www.ryanguill.com/
The Roman Empire: www.ryanguill.com/blog/









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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Bryan Stevenson]

> For those just joining us, we're talking about Flex2, which requires Flash
> 8.5. 
> 
> russ

Thanks Russ...gee I hadn't noticed ;-)

That still does not explain why you'd need CF to update a Flash Player!!
for your refernce:

> >I haven't tried it, but my guess is the reason it doesn't work is because
> CF
> > 8.5 isn't released yet, and therefore not part of the auto update.

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Tom Harris]

Regarding the anticipated pricing of FlexBuilder: What is it with all
you people who think everything should be free?  Are cars and houses
free?  Are bread and milk free?  Do you work for free?  If you think
everything should be free, then you need to stop billing your clients
for work, or stop accepting paychecks from your employer.  Or maybe it's
that YOU get to charge money for YOUR services, but you shouldn't have
to pay anyone else for their services... is that it?  Maybe some day, in
some bright and shining utopian wonderland, everything will be free.  In
the meantime, do those of you who constantly bitch about everything
costing money know ANYTHING about BUSINESS at all?  I cannot believe
that someone on this list actually said they think CF should be free!

As far as FlexBuilder goes, I think $2000 would still be a bargain.  

As someone once said, "If you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on
the porch!"  Or, if you can't afford to buy good tools, there are always
the free ones.  But quit complaining that good tools cost money -- they
always have and they always will.

I just needed to vent.  The best to you all.

Tom Harris



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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Russ]

For those just joining us, we're talking about Flex2, which requires Flash
8.5. 

russ

> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:10 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> >I haven't tried it, but my guess is the reason it doesn't work is because
> CF
> > 8.5 isn't released yet, and therefore not part of the auto update.
> 
> What would CF have to do with a Flash Player update???
> 
> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
> Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
> phone: 250.480.0642
> fax: 250.480.1264
> cell: 250.920.8830
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.electricedgesystems.com
> 
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> From Ben's presentation in NYC, Adobe was working on some RDS 
> functionality as well that may be contributed to Eclipse or 
> just be part of the Flex Builder tool, that alone in my 
> opinion is worth it's weight in gold.

I'm pretty sure that the RDS functionality for Eclipse is separate from
FlexBuilder. I suspect that it'll be released for free.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

Same here. I get a blank blue screen on any of the examples found here:
http://labs.macromedia.com/showcase/



-Original Message-
From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 12:59 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash Player update
(kicked
off from a Flash based site) work.

How about the rest of ya?


Well, it's not looking too good.  I have flash player 8 and I just went
to labs.adobe.com and clicked on all their flex 2.0 examples (requires
Flash 8.5) and every one of them gave me a blank screen, or an infinite
loading page.  I've gotta say, they need to work on their detection
script.  I even waited for about five minutes to see if it was just
loading in the background with out telling me, but nothing ever
happened.

~Brad




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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Bryan Stevenson]

>I haven't tried it, but my guess is the reason it doesn't work is because CF
> 8.5 isn't released yet, and therefore not part of the auto update.

What would CF have to do with a Flash Player update???

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

Tech support. Plenty of companies make their money supporting free products.



-Original Message-
From: Nick Han [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 12:24 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


>Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
>complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
>because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to
proliferate.
>It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would
be >using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.

Andy,
A company's primary purpose for its existence is to make money.
If CF were made available for free, who is going to pay for the
developers' time and product support?  ASP is not really free if you
think about it.  Microsoft had already factored in the costs of ASP into
the price of every copy of Windows OS sold.

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

Actually, yes, I do think that $1200 for the server is excessive. Seeing
as
how CF is the ONLY language that makes you pay for the engine.

PHP = free
ASP = free (with the windows OS)
Java = free ( I beleive )
Perl = free
Python = free
Ruby = free

Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to proliferate.
It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would
be
using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.



-Original Message-
From: Ryan Guill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:25 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Do you use coldfusion?  You know it competes against other products
that can do the same thing, and some of those options are free right?
PHP, ASP, RoR, etc?

Did you pay for the coldfusion server?  or do you use a hosting plan
that you pay for that costs more than some of the other options?  Do
you think that 12xx for coldfusion is excessive?

Of course they could release coldfusion for less money, but it costs
money to develop the software, to maintain it, to train on it, etc.
They think 12xx for the server is a pretty good price and so do plenty
of corporations / developers.

The point is, that while you can get other software that may be
cheaper or even free, its worth paying for because you are getting
value for your money.  While you may pay 1000 for flexbuilder, while
you could get some other product for free, flexbuilder is going to
allow you to do more faster, increasing your return on investment.

Also, if you dont like eclipse, or flexbuilder, use whatever xml /
actionscript editor you want.  You can get the compiler and flex
framework for free...

Just realize that you aren't going to have the IDE thats going to make
everything easier for you.  But I dont see 1000 per developer as
excessive at all for the power that you get out of flexbuilder.

Truth is, i dont see why anyone is trying to convince you... If you
dont use it, it just means less competition later... ;)

On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it
several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all
of
> you are raving about.
>
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do,
the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same
thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive
for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>

--
Ryan Guill
BlueEyesDevelopment
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.ryanguill.com
(270) 217.2399
got google talk?  Chat me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Coldfusion Open Application Library - COAL -
http://coal.ryanguill.com

Use CF and SQL? Try qBrowser - http://www.ryanguill.com/docs/

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Aaron Rouse]

I thought there was no automatic update to the beta player.

On 3/2/06, Brad Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash Player update
> (kicked
> off from a Flash based site) work.
>
> How about the rest of ya?
>
>
> Well, it's not looking too good.  I have flash player 8 and I just went
> to labs.adobe.com and clicked on all their flex 2.0 examples (requires
> Flash 8.5) and every one of them gave me a blank screen, or an infinite
> loading page.  I've gotta say, they need to work on their detection
> script.  I even waited for about five minutes to see if it was just
> loading in the background with out telling me, but nothing ever
> happened.
>
> ~Brad
>
>
> 

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash 
> Player update (kicked off from a Flash based site) work.
> 
> How about the rest of ya?

Yeah, I have, actually.

> Well, it's not looking too good.  I have flash player 8 and I 
> just went to labs.adobe.com and clicked on all their flex 2.0 
> examples (requires Flash 8.5) and every one of them gave me a 
> blank screen, or an infinite loading page.  I've gotta say, 
> they need to work on their detection script.  I even waited 
> for about five minutes to see if it was just loading in the 
> background with out telling me, but nothing ever happened.

The 8.5 version is a beta. It will not be automatically installed by any of
the examples, for obvious reasons.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Russ]

I haven't tried it, but my guess is the reason it doesn't work is because CF
8.5 isn't released yet, and therefore not part of the auto update.


> -Original Message-
> From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 1:59 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash Player update
> (kicked
> off from a Flash based site) work.
> 
> How about the rest of ya?
> 
> 
> Well, it's not looking too good.  I have flash player 8 and I just went
> to labs.adobe.com and clicked on all their flex 2.0 examples (requires
> Flash 8.5) and every one of them gave me a blank screen, or an infinite
> loading page.  I've gotta say, they need to work on their detection
> script.  I even waited for about five minutes to see if it was just
> loading in the background with out telling me, but nothing ever
> happened.
> 
> ~Brad
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Bryan Stevenson]

> Once... but it has to be deployed and implemented *perfectly*.
>
> In a way it's like seeing an albino family eating at Burger King... it
> happens, but it's rare.
>
> !k

hehe...and my most recent failure was on www.tv.com you'd think they'd get it 
right with the traffic they must have ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ken Ferguson]

Can't say for certain that I've seen it NOT work.

--Ferg

Bryan Stevenson wrote:
>> I think that the 8.5 install base will grow very quickly. Current versions
>> of Flash, as you've noticed, can upgrade themselves pretty easily.
>> 
>
> You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash Player update 
> (kicked 
> off from a Flash based site) work.
>
> How about the rest of ya?
>
> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
> Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
> phone: 250.480.0642
> fax: 250.480.1264
> cell: 250.920.8830
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.electricedgesystems.com 
>
>
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ken Ferguson]

yeah, I love when people go on about ASP being free. It's not free, it's 
just that you've already paid for it. As a shareholder, I don't ever 
want to see CF made "free".

Nick Han wrote:
>> Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
>> complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
>> because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to
>> 
> proliferate.
>   
>> It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would
>> 
> be >using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.
>
> Andy, 
>   A company's primary purpose for its existence is to make money.
> If CF were made available for free, who is going to pay for the
> developers' time and product support?  ASP is not really free if you
> think about it.  Microsoft had already factored in the costs of ASP into
> the price of every copy of Windows OS sold.
>   


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Brad Wood]

You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash Player update
(kicked 
off from a Flash based site) work.

How about the rest of ya? 


Well, it's not looking too good.  I have flash player 8 and I just went
to labs.adobe.com and clicked on all their flex 2.0 examples (requires
Flash 8.5) and every one of them gave me a blank screen, or an infinite
loading page.  I've gotta say, they need to work on their detection
script.  I even waited for about five minutes to see if it was just
loading in the background with out telling me, but nothing ever
happened.

~Brad


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Donnie Bachan]

I think we need to remember that there has been no set pricing on the
tool yet. Ben noted that it could be "under $1000" and that could mean
anything from $1 - $999 even though I think it will be on the higher
end. The fact of the matter is that if you decide that you like what
the tool does and how it works you will fork over the money. I
personally think it is worth the investment. Adobe will, I assume,
allow you to download a trial when the final version is shipped so you
can test it out.

>From Ben's presentation in NYC, Adobe was working on some RDS
functionality as well that may be contributed to Eclipse or just be
part of the Flex Builder tool, that alone in my opinion is worth it's
weight in gold. Not everyone is going to like the product, some people
hate Dreamweaver while other swear by it, you can't please everyone
but there is nothing else at present that can accomplish what this
tool will deliver when released. That is the bottom line and Adobe
will price it accordingly for their target audience. If you don't like
the product and want to either build one or hand code everything you
can do so also since the XML style markup is quite easy to use but
again, it's up to you if you prefer to spend 100 hrs hand coding it
versus using the visual tool. I really think that all the AJAX talk is
going to quiet down a bit when Flex is released.


Just my 2 cents.


On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
> you are raving about.
>
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 9:57 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> > I do still think it's a bit of a cheek to charge the
> > equivalent of a full app suite (or a new PC for that matter)
> > for a plugin - no matter how wonderful it is. As to whether
> > it would save me time/money thats a moot point.  Flex 2 is
> > not the only option out there, and wearing either of my hats
> > (as an independent developer or as a member of a large dev
> > team working for a not for profit) $1000 is a lot to spend
> > per seat - especially as we would probably need the server
> > as well.
>
> I don't really understand why it matters whether it's a plugin or a "full
> app suite". What matters to me is what it allows you to do. I'd much rather
> pay $1000 for FlexBuilder as a plugin to Eclipse, which is somewhat of a
> known quantity, than have Adobe spend time and developer resources to build
> an entire IDE from scratch. They'd have to charge more for it just to cover
> their costs, and it probably wouldn't be nearly as good. And again, the only
> thing that should matter is whether it helps you deliver better applications
> faster, at least enough to offset the per-seat cost!
>
> And yes, Flex 2 is not the only option out there. But it's fundamentally
> different from the other options that are available. Based on what I've seen
> so far, I think it's quite a bit better than the other options. In my
> opinion, AJAX is hardly comparable to Flex 2 - and I've been working with
> AJAX (and AJAXish predecessor) applications for a long, long time. You don't
> need to listen to me, though. Download the open beta and see for yourself!
>
> > I am interested in Flex2, I am also interested in Ajax and
> > several other options - money will be a big part of any
> > decisions made. To set up 2 servers and 12 developers to use
> > Flex might be a very significant outlay.
>
> According to my understanding, you don't necessarily have to purchase any
> server component at all. You can use Flex to talk to CF applications, web
> services, etc. without any server component. The optional server component
> is very impressive, though - it provides some very useful pieces of
> functionality, like the ability to tie into JMS very easily. As for your
> not-for-profit development team, Adobe may offer alternative pricing for
> different sorts of organizations, so you may be able to get it cheaper than
> I can.
>
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
>
> Fig Lea

RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ian Skinner]

You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash Player update (kicked 
off from a Flash based site) work.

How about the rest of ya?

Yes, I have.  I have never seen a Flash player update not work.

I have once experience of a system that, no matter how many times I try, is not 
able to install Flash.

But for systems that have flash, updating has never been a problem.



--
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Kevin Aebig]

Once... but it has to be deployed and implemented *perfectly*.

In a way it's like seeing an albino family eating at Burger King... it
happens, but it's rare.

!k

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 2, 2006 12:44 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

> I think that the 8.5 install base will grow very quickly. Current versions
> of Flash, as you've noticed, can upgrade themselves pretty easily.

You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash Player update
(kicked 
off from a Flash based site) work.

How about the rest of ya?

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 




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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Bryan Stevenson]

> I think that the 8.5 install base will grow very quickly. Current versions
> of Flash, as you've noticed, can upgrade themselves pretty easily.

You now..I don't think I've ever seen an automatic Flash Player update (kicked 
off from a Flash based site) work.

How about the rest of ya?

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> Hmm, that's a bummer. I'd not release any major apps from 
> Flex 2 until 8.5 has a wide install base. However, the 
> upgrade to new versions /is/ pretty painless. I was very 
> surprised the other day when I hit a site in my new install 
> of Ubuntu, Flash was required and Firefox did the install 
> painlessly, then sent me back to the original page without 
> restarting the browser!  Very slick!

I think that the 8.5 install base will grow very quickly. Current versions
of Flash, as you've noticed, can upgrade themselves pretty easily.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Munson, Jacob]

> Flex 2 applications will require the latest version of Flash 
> (8.5), which is
> in beta right now along with Flex 2 itself. So, yes, some 
> folks will be out.

Hmm, that's a bummer.  I'd not release any major apps from Flex 2 until
8.5 has a wide install base.  However, the upgrade to new versions /is/
pretty painless.  I was very surprised the other day when I hit a site
in my new install of Ubuntu, Flash was required and Firefox did the
install painlessly, then sent me back to the original page without
restarting the browser!  Very slick!


---

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Nick Han]

Andy, 
A company's primary purpose for its existence is to make money.
If CF were made available for free, who is going to pay for the
developers' time and product support?  ASP is not really free if you
think about it.  Microsoft had already factored in the costs of ASP into
the price of every copy of Windows OS sold.

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

Actually, yes, I do think that $1200 for the server is excessive. Seeing
as
how CF is the ONLY language that makes you pay for the engine.

PHP = free
ASP = free (with the windows OS)
Java = free ( I beleive )
Perl = free
Python = free
Ruby = free

Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to proliferate.
It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would
be
using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.




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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Nick Han]

>Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
>complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
>because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to
proliferate.
>It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would
be >using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.

Andy, 
A company's primary purpose for its existence is to make money.
If CF were made available for free, who is going to pay for the
developers' time and product support?  ASP is not really free if you
think about it.  Microsoft had already factored in the costs of ASP into
the price of every copy of Windows OS sold.

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

Actually, yes, I do think that $1200 for the server is excessive. Seeing
as
how CF is the ONLY language that makes you pay for the engine.

PHP = free
ASP = free (with the windows OS)
Java = free ( I beleive )
Perl = free
Python = free
Ruby = free

Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to proliferate.
It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would
be
using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.



-Original Message-
From: Ryan Guill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:25 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Do you use coldfusion?  You know it competes against other products
that can do the same thing, and some of those options are free right?
PHP, ASP, RoR, etc?

Did you pay for the coldfusion server?  or do you use a hosting plan
that you pay for that costs more than some of the other options?  Do
you think that 12xx for coldfusion is excessive?

Of course they could release coldfusion for less money, but it costs
money to develop the software, to maintain it, to train on it, etc.
They think 12xx for the server is a pretty good price and so do plenty
of corporations / developers.

The point is, that while you can get other software that may be
cheaper or even free, its worth paying for because you are getting
value for your money.  While you may pay 1000 for flexbuilder, while
you could get some other product for free, flexbuilder is going to
allow you to do more faster, increasing your return on investment.

Also, if you dont like eclipse, or flexbuilder, use whatever xml /
actionscript editor you want.  You can get the compiler and flex
framework for free...

Just realize that you aren't going to have the IDE thats going to make
everything easier for you.  But I dont see 1000 per developer as
excessive at all for the power that you get out of flexbuilder.

Truth is, i dont see why anyone is trying to convince you... If you
dont use it, it just means less competition later... ;)

On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it
several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all
of
> you are raving about.
>
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do,
the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same
thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive
for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>

--
Ryan Guill
BlueEyesDevelopment
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.ryanguill.com
(270) 217.2399
got google talk?  Chat me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Coldfusion Open Application Library - COAL -
http://coal.ryanguill.com

Use CF and SQL? Try qBrowser - http://www.ryanguill.com/docs/

www.ryanguill.com/
The Roman Empire: www.ryanguill.com/blog/





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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

By the way...

For anyone that's interested, here's a recorded Breeze presentation made by
Jesse Warden for the Nashville CFUG.

http://mmusergroup.breezecentral.com/p86821128/



-Original Message-
From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:55 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


>The one thing I'm
> not sure about is flash player versions.

Flex 2 runs on Flash 8.5.
Completely rebuilt VM and MUCH FASTER!

My current cfform stuff uses flash 8 (and flex 1 in the back-end) and
sometimes takes up to TEN SECONDS to initialize on the screen.

The examples Ben F was showing us, were coming up instantly and he said
that speed would not slow even as your app grew.

Truthfully, that was one of the most exciting things for me.  I couldn't
sell my powers that be on cf flash forms even because they were so dang
slow to load in the past.

~Brad




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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Brad Wood]

>The one thing I'm
> not sure about is flash player versions.  

Flex 2 runs on Flash 8.5.
Completely rebuilt VM and MUCH FASTER!

My current cfform stuff uses flash 8 (and flex 1 in the back-end) and
sometimes takes up to TEN SECONDS to initialize on the screen.

The examples Ben F was showing us, were coming up instantly and he said
that speed would not slow even as your app grew.  

Truthfully, that was one of the most exciting things for me.  I couldn't
sell my powers that be on cf flash forms even because they were so dang
slow to load in the past.

~Brad


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> I've  had the same questions running through my mind.  I used 
> Ajax to build cfQuickDocs, and I loved it.  One thing I do 
> think that will be nice with Flex is cross platform 
> compatibility.  You build one app, and every client that has 
> the flash player will run it.  The one thing I'm not sure 
> about is flash player versions.  I think Linux people are 
> still stuck with Flash Player 7, so if Flex requires the 
> latest versions then some folks will be out.

Flex 2 applications will require the latest version of Flash (8.5), which is
in beta right now along with Flex 2 itself. So, yes, some folks will be out.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

Let me step back here and say that I'm probably coming across badly and I
apologize. I tend to argue more than is necessary and for that I'm sorry.

I'm excited about seeing this Flex application succeed. I love Macromedia
products and I think that they can only get better. I want to look at it and
see if it might be the solution for some of our clients, but at this point
it's yet another thing I need to learn. I'm going as fast as I can, learning
as much as is possible, but they keep coming out with new stuff.

Anyway...sorry for the argumentative pose.



-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:36 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Actually, yes, I do think that $1200 for the server is excessive. Seeing as
how CF is the ONLY language that makes you pay for the engine.

PHP = free
ASP = free (with the windows OS)
Java = free ( I beleive )
Perl = free
Python = free
Ruby = free

Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to proliferate.
It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would be
using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.



-Original Message-
From: Ryan Guill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:25 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Do you use coldfusion?  You know it competes against other products
that can do the same thing, and some of those options are free right?
PHP, ASP, RoR, etc?

Did you pay for the coldfusion server?  or do you use a hosting plan
that you pay for that costs more than some of the other options?  Do
you think that 12xx for coldfusion is excessive?

Of course they could release coldfusion for less money, but it costs
money to develop the software, to maintain it, to train on it, etc.
They think 12xx for the server is a pretty good price and so do plenty
of corporations / developers.

The point is, that while you can get other software that may be
cheaper or even free, its worth paying for because you are getting
value for your money.  While you may pay 1000 for flexbuilder, while
you could get some other product for free, flexbuilder is going to
allow you to do more faster, increasing your return on investment.

Also, if you dont like eclipse, or flexbuilder, use whatever xml /
actionscript editor you want.  You can get the compiler and flex
framework for free...

Just realize that you aren't going to have the IDE thats going to make
everything easier for you.  But I dont see 1000 per developer as
excessive at all for the power that you get out of flexbuilder.

Truth is, i dont see why anyone is trying to convince you... If you
dont use it, it just means less competition later... ;)

On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it
several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
> you are raving about.
>
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>

--
Ryan Guill
BlueEyesDevelopment
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.ryanguill.com
(270) 217.2399
got google talk?  Chat me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Coldfusion Open Application Library - COAL - http://coal.ryanguill.com

Use CF and SQL? Try qBrowser - http://www.ryanguill.com/docs/

www.ryanguill.com/
The Roman Empire: www.ryanguill.com/blog/





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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've 
> tried it several times and each time I return to my copy of 
> Editplus wondering what all of you are raving about.

I'm not a huge fan of Eclipse either. I can take it or leave it. The value
that FlexBuilder 2 brings to the table isn't that it improves Eclipse. The
fact is, Adobe had to start somewhere to provide the kind of IDE
functionality that something like FlexBuilder 2 needs, and they didn't have
suitable starting point in any of their existing products. If you ever tried
to use FlexBuilder 1.5, which was built on Dreamweaver, I think you'd agree.
I like Dreamweaver, but it simply doesn't fit the needs of something like
FlexBuilder.

> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it 
> can do, the fact is that it's competing against other stuff 
> that can do the same thing and some of those options are 
> free. It just seem a little excessive for Adobe to charge 
> $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.

I haven't seen anything that can do the same thing as Flex 2. I don't think
anything yet exists. It's not an incremental improvement to web
applications; it's something entirely different.

As for how much exactly it'll cost, there hasn't been an announcement. All
they've said so far is that it'll probably be under $1000. So everyone's
assuming that it'll be $1000, but for all we know it could be any of those
numbers you've given. For all we know, it could be $5. I don't think they've
decided yet, frankly, but I don't know any more than you do.

But again, you should really check it out for yourself, and see how much you
think it's worth. After you've done this, you may well think that $1000 is
more than fair. I don't think you'll find anything else that can "do the
same thing" at any price.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Aaron Rouse]

Did you not like Eclipse or CFEclipse?  I personally do not care for
CFEclipse, I randomly try it out and leave wondering what all the hype is
about.  I have used Flex Builder a little bit and was impressed with how it
worked as a tool.

If you do not like the price of Flex Builder you can still build Flex
applications and for free you just use the compiler with whatever text
editor you like.  So I really do not see the issue here, you either spend
whatever they decide to charge and potentially save that much money in
regards to time saved on the first Flex project you do or you spend more
time coding the same stuff in your preferred text editor then use the free
compiler on that.


On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it
> several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
> you are raving about.
>
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>
>


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

How is that when someone brings up VALID concerns about a software
application it's considered "whining"?



-Original Message-
From: Mark Fuqua [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:25 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


and you would whine less if it was 600? Somehow I doubt it.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:09 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it several
times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
you are raving about.

I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.







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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

Actually, yes, I do think that $1200 for the server is excessive. Seeing as
how CF is the ONLY language that makes you pay for the engine.

PHP = free
ASP = free (with the windows OS)
Java = free ( I beleive )
Perl = free
Python = free
Ruby = free

Are you seeing a pattern here? I personally LOVE Coldfusion and I'm not
complaining about it at all. But I do think that it should be free, not
because I don't see a value in it, but because I want CF to proliferate.
It's such a great language that if it were "free" LOADS of people would be
using it. Because WHY NOT? It's powerful, easy to use and fun.



-Original Message-
From: Ryan Guill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:25 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Do you use coldfusion?  You know it competes against other products
that can do the same thing, and some of those options are free right?
PHP, ASP, RoR, etc?

Did you pay for the coldfusion server?  or do you use a hosting plan
that you pay for that costs more than some of the other options?  Do
you think that 12xx for coldfusion is excessive?

Of course they could release coldfusion for less money, but it costs
money to develop the software, to maintain it, to train on it, etc.
They think 12xx for the server is a pretty good price and so do plenty
of corporations / developers.

The point is, that while you can get other software that may be
cheaper or even free, its worth paying for because you are getting
value for your money.  While you may pay 1000 for flexbuilder, while
you could get some other product for free, flexbuilder is going to
allow you to do more faster, increasing your return on investment.

Also, if you dont like eclipse, or flexbuilder, use whatever xml /
actionscript editor you want.  You can get the compiler and flex
framework for free...

Just realize that you aren't going to have the IDE thats going to make
everything easier for you.  But I dont see 1000 per developer as
excessive at all for the power that you get out of flexbuilder.

Truth is, i dont see why anyone is trying to convince you... If you
dont use it, it just means less competition later... ;)

On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it
several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
> you are raving about.
>
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>

--
Ryan Guill
BlueEyesDevelopment
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.ryanguill.com
(270) 217.2399
got google talk?  Chat me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Coldfusion Open Application Library - COAL - http://coal.ryanguill.com

Use CF and SQL? Try qBrowser - http://www.ryanguill.com/docs/

www.ryanguill.com/
The Roman Empire: www.ryanguill.com/blog/



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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Bryan Stevenson]

> TOAD?

Oracle DB tool

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Munson, Jacob]

> I am interested in Flex2, I am also interested in Ajax and several
> other options - money will be a big part of any decisions made. To set
> up 2 servers and 12 developers to use Flex might be a very significant
> outlay.

I've  had the same questions running through my mind.  I used Ajax to
build cfQuickDocs, and I loved it.  One thing I do think that will be
nice with Flex is cross platform compatibility.  You build one app, and
every client that has the flash player will run it.  The one thing I'm
not sure about is flash player versions.  I think Linux people are still
stuck with Flash Player 7, so if Flex requires the latest versions then
some folks will be out.

---


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Mark Fuqua]

and you would whine less if it was 600? Somehow I doubt it.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:09 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it several
times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
you are raving about.

I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.





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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Russ]

Eclipse is not bad... it could use some improvement, and I'm guessing after
whatever adobe contributed to eclipse gets released it will be even better,
but it's good now... 

It was kind of buggy and still is in the 1.2 version (which is the final
stable version posted on cfeclipse.org), but if you download the nightly
build, it's much more user friendly (at least I feel it is).  

Russ

> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:09 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it
> several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
> you are raving about.
> 
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
> 
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
> 
> -Original Message-----
> From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 9:57 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> > I do still think it's a bit of a cheek to charge the
> > equivalent of a full app suite (or a new PC for that matter)
> > for a plugin - no matter how wonderful it is. As to whether
> > it would save me time/money thats a moot point.  Flex 2 is
> > not the only option out there, and wearing either of my hats
> > (as an independent developer or as a member of a large dev
> > team working for a not for profit) $1000 is a lot to spend
> > per seat - especially as we would probably need the server
> > as well.
> 
> I don't really understand why it matters whether it's a plugin or a "full
> app suite". What matters to me is what it allows you to do. I'd much
> rather
> pay $1000 for FlexBuilder as a plugin to Eclipse, which is somewhat of a
> known quantity, than have Adobe spend time and developer resources to
> build
> an entire IDE from scratch. They'd have to charge more for it just to
> cover
> their costs, and it probably wouldn't be nearly as good. And again, the
> only
> thing that should matter is whether it helps you deliver better
> applications
> faster, at least enough to offset the per-seat cost!
> 
> And yes, Flex 2 is not the only option out there. But it's fundamentally
> different from the other options that are available. Based on what I've
> seen
> so far, I think it's quite a bit better than the other options. In my
> opinion, AJAX is hardly comparable to Flex 2 - and I've been working with
> AJAX (and AJAXish predecessor) applications for a long, long time. You
> don't
> need to listen to me, though. Download the open beta and see for yourself!
> 
> > I am interested in Flex2, I am also interested in Ajax and
> > several other options - money will be a big part of any
> > decisions made. To set up 2 servers and 12 developers to use
> > Flex might be a very significant outlay.
> 
> According to my understanding, you don't necessarily have to purchase any
> server component at all. You can use Flex to talk to CF applications, web
> services, etc. without any server component. The optional server component
> is very impressive, though - it provides some very useful pieces of
> functionality, like the ability to tie into JMS very easily. As for your
> not-for-profit development team, Adobe may offer alternative pricing for
> different sorts of organizations, so you may be able to get it cheaper
> than
> I can.
> 
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
> 
> Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
> Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
> Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Ryan Guill]

Do you use coldfusion?  You know it competes against other products
that can do the same thing, and some of those options are free right? 
PHP, ASP, RoR, etc?

Did you pay for the coldfusion server?  or do you use a hosting plan
that you pay for that costs more than some of the other options?  Do
you think that 12xx for coldfusion is excessive?

Of course they could release coldfusion for less money, but it costs
money to develop the software, to maintain it, to train on it, etc. 
They think 12xx for the server is a pretty good price and so do plenty
of corporations / developers.

The point is, that while you can get other software that may be
cheaper or even free, its worth paying for because you are getting
value for your money.  While you may pay 1000 for flexbuilder, while
you could get some other product for free, flexbuilder is going to
allow you to do more faster, increasing your return on investment.

Also, if you dont like eclipse, or flexbuilder, use whatever xml /
actionscript editor you want.  You can get the compiler and flex
framework for free...

Just realize that you aren't going to have the IDE thats going to make
everything easier for you.  But I dont see 1000 per developer as
excessive at all for the power that you get out of flexbuilder.

Truth is, i dont see why anyone is trying to convince you... If you
dont use it, it just means less competition later... ;)

On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it several
> times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
> you are raving about.
>
> I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
> fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
> and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
> Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>

--
Ryan Guill
BlueEyesDevelopment
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.ryanguill.com
(270) 217.2399
got google talk?  Chat me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Coldfusion Open Application Library - COAL - http://coal.ryanguill.com

Use CF and SQL? Try qBrowser - http://www.ryanguill.com/docs/

www.ryanguill.com/
The Roman Empire: www.ryanguill.com/blog/

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

So what about those of us who just don't like Eclipse? I've tried it several
times and each time I return to my copy of Editplus wondering what all of
you are raving about.

I'm now knocking it, or you Dave, but it I don't care WHAT it can do, the
fact is that it's competing against other stuff that can do the same thing
and some of those options are free. It just seem a little excessive for
Adobe to charge $999. Why not $500? Or even $600.



-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 9:57 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


> I do still think it's a bit of a cheek to charge the
> equivalent of a full app suite (or a new PC for that matter)
> for a plugin - no matter how wonderful it is. As to whether
> it would save me time/money thats a moot point.  Flex 2 is
> not the only option out there, and wearing either of my hats
> (as an independent developer or as a member of a large dev
> team working for a not for profit) $1000 is a lot to spend
> per seat - especially as we would probably need the server
> as well.

I don't really understand why it matters whether it's a plugin or a "full
app suite". What matters to me is what it allows you to do. I'd much rather
pay $1000 for FlexBuilder as a plugin to Eclipse, which is somewhat of a
known quantity, than have Adobe spend time and developer resources to build
an entire IDE from scratch. They'd have to charge more for it just to cover
their costs, and it probably wouldn't be nearly as good. And again, the only
thing that should matter is whether it helps you deliver better applications
faster, at least enough to offset the per-seat cost!

And yes, Flex 2 is not the only option out there. But it's fundamentally
different from the other options that are available. Based on what I've seen
so far, I think it's quite a bit better than the other options. In my
opinion, AJAX is hardly comparable to Flex 2 - and I've been working with
AJAX (and AJAXish predecessor) applications for a long, long time. You don't
need to listen to me, though. Download the open beta and see for yourself!

> I am interested in Flex2, I am also interested in Ajax and
> several other options - money will be a big part of any
> decisions made. To set up 2 servers and 12 developers to use
> Flex might be a very significant outlay.

According to my understanding, you don't necessarily have to purchase any
server component at all. You can use Flex to talk to CF applications, web
services, etc. without any server component. The optional server component
is very impressive, though - it provides some very useful pieces of
functionality, like the ability to tie into JMS very easily. As for your
not-for-profit development team, Adobe may offer alternative pricing for
different sorts of organizations, so you may be able to get it cheaper than
I can.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!




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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> I do still think it's a bit of a cheek to charge the 
> equivalent of a full app suite (or a new PC for that matter) 
> for a plugin - no matter how wonderful it is. As to whether 
> it would save me time/money thats a moot point.  Flex 2 is 
> not the only option out there, and wearing either of my hats 
> (as an independent developer or as a member of a large dev 
> team working for a not for profit) $1000 is a lot to spend 
> per seat - especially as we would probably need the server 
> as well.

I don't really understand why it matters whether it's a plugin or a "full
app suite". What matters to me is what it allows you to do. I'd much rather
pay $1000 for FlexBuilder as a plugin to Eclipse, which is somewhat of a
known quantity, than have Adobe spend time and developer resources to build
an entire IDE from scratch. They'd have to charge more for it just to cover
their costs, and it probably wouldn't be nearly as good. And again, the only
thing that should matter is whether it helps you deliver better applications
faster, at least enough to offset the per-seat cost!

And yes, Flex 2 is not the only option out there. But it's fundamentally
different from the other options that are available. Based on what I've seen
so far, I think it's quite a bit better than the other options. In my
opinion, AJAX is hardly comparable to Flex 2 - and I've been working with
AJAX (and AJAXish predecessor) applications for a long, long time. You don't
need to listen to me, though. Download the open beta and see for yourself!

> I am interested in Flex2, I am also interested in Ajax and 
> several other options - money will be a big part of any 
> decisions made. To set up 2 servers and 12 developers to use 
> Flex might be a very significant outlay.

According to my understanding, you don't necessarily have to purchase any
server component at all. You can use Flex to talk to CF applications, web
services, etc. without any server component. The optional server component
is very impressive, though - it provides some very useful pieces of
functionality, like the ability to tie into JMS very easily. As for your
not-for-profit development team, Adobe may offer alternative pricing for
different sorts of organizations, so you may be able to get it cheaper than
I can.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Aaron Rouse]

It some interesting stuff, I'd like to see more examples integrating it with
CF.  The one example I found ended up crashing my CF7 box when I tried to
apply the updater for it to run, have yet to get back to trying to fix that
installation.

On 3/2/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've got the labs.adobe.com site open in
> a browser window...just waiting to have time
> to view the videos and read the white papers!
>
> Thanks for your feedback...
>
> Rick
>
>


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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

I've got the labs.adobe.com site open in
a browser window...just waiting to have time
to view the videos and read the white papers!

Thanks for your feedback...

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: Donnie Bachan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 9:40 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> Rick,
> 
> You need to see what Flex Builder does. If Ben makes it to an Users
> Group near you go see the presentation. I am pretty old fashioned, I
> don't use many visual tools unless I have to, so I still develop in
> Homesite and Eclipse but after seeing Flex Builder 2 I am now a big
> fan and starting to put aside cash for this. You will have to code the
> actions for the interface but things that would take a flash developer
> hours or days to do you can now do in minutes. Visit labs.adobe.com
> and download the beta and you too will become a believer! ;-)



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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> Is there a single developer version that's less?

No, I don't think there will be. However, the Flex framework itself - the
compiler that builds Flex apps - will be free, if I understand correctly.

But again, if the product saves you enough development time, $1000 isn't
very much. I strongly encourage you to download the public beta and see what
you think.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Wayne Putterill]

Answers in line

On 3/2/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It does seem expensive, especially given that from what I
> > understand its basically a plugin for an open source program?
>
> Yes, that's all it is. However, it's one hell of a plugin.
>
> The problem that a lot of people seem to have when looking at software
> pricing is that they expect it to match the complexity or size of the
> application in question. This is silly. The value of a piece of software -
> like anything else - isn't derived from how big it is, or how complicated it
> is, but whether it saves you money that you'd otherwise spend doing things
> some other way.

I do still think it's a bit of a cheek to charge the equivalent of a
full app suite (or a new PC for that matter) for a plugin - no matter
how wonderful it is. As to whether it would save me time/money thats a
moot point.  Flex 2 is not the only option out there, and wearing
either of my hats (as an independent developer or as a member of a
large dev team working for a not for profit) $1000 is a lot to spend
per seat - especially as we would probably need the server as well.

> If you're interested in building Flex 2 applications - and I strongly
> encourage everyone to take a good look at Flex 2 - you can build them with
> your favorite text editor, or you can use FlexBuilder. Having worked with
> FlexBuilder myself, I'd buy it in a minute - it makes building Flex 2
> applications so much simpler, that you'll recoup your labor costs in a week.

I am interested in Flex2, I am also interested in Ajax and several
other options - money will be a big part of any decisions made. To set
up 2 servers and 12 developers to use Flex might be a very significant
outlay.

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Dave Watts]

> It does seem expensive, especially given that from what I 
> understand its basically a plugin for an open source program?

Yes, that's all it is. However, it's one hell of a plugin.

The problem that a lot of people seem to have when looking at software
pricing is that they expect it to match the complexity or size of the
application in question. This is silly. The value of a piece of software -
like anything else - isn't derived from how big it is, or how complicated it
is, but whether it saves you money that you'd otherwise spend doing things
some other way.

If you're interested in building Flex 2 applications - and I strongly
encourage everyone to take a good look at Flex 2 - you can build them with
your favorite text editor, or you can use FlexBuilder. Having worked with
FlexBuilder myself, I'd buy it in a minute - it makes building Flex 2
applications so much simpler, that you'll recoup your labor costs in a week.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Wayne Putterill]

It does seem expensive, especially given that from what I understand
its basically a plugin for an open source program?

Have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick here, is it more than that?

On 3/2/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark...
>
> Just to be nitpicky...you can't compare full versions of Studio or CS
> because they each contain multiple programs, Studio has 5 and CS has 4. From
> what I've heard here, Flex is just...well...Flex. You're paying $1000 for
> one application.
>
>  andy matthews
> web developer
> ICGLink, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 615.370.1530 x737
> --//->
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Fuqua [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 7:55 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> Rick,
>
> A full version of studio is $800.  A full version of Adobe creative suite is
> $1200.  Upgrades of course are much less expensive.
>
> People are already working on alternatives using primalScript and ANT.  For
> me, I have already set aside my $1000.  Adobe's will be the best for sure
> and will be the only one with a visual design component similar to
> dreamweaver.  And from what I have seen, it is quite useful.
>
> To each there own.
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:01 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> It's hard for me to believe an IDE would be worth
> $1000 (oh, excuse, me $999, which is less than $1000 :P )
>
> Most design software, whether it's for web design, as in
> Dreamweaver, photo manipulation, as in Photoshop,
> graphics, as in Illustrator, etc., is not even that much...most
> of it not anywhere near $1000 unless you get everything
> in a bundle.
>
> Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance about the Flex IDE,
> but with it priced so high (I don't, at this point, see how it could
> possibly be worth that much money), it's wide open for
> a company with hungrier developers to come in and sell
> something for half that and take a lot of business from Adobe
> and Flex...what makes it worth $1000?
>
> Rick
>
>
>
>
>
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Donnie Bachan]

Rick,

You need to see what Flex Builder does. If Ben makes it to an Users
Group near you go see the presentation. I am pretty old fashioned, I
don't use many visual tools unless I have to, so I still develop in
Homesite and Eclipse but after seeing Flex Builder 2 I am now a big
fan and starting to put aside cash for this. You will have to code the
actions for the interface but things that would take a flash developer
hours or days to do you can now do in minutes. Visit labs.adobe.com
and download the beta and you too will become a believer! ;-)


--
Donnie Bachan
Website: http://www.que7.com
"Nitendo Vinces - By Striving You Shall Conquer"
==
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

Mark...

Just to be nitpicky...you can't compare full versions of Studio or CS
because they each contain multiple programs, Studio has 5 and CS has 4. From
what I've heard here, Flex is just...well...Flex. You're paying $1000 for
one application.



-Original Message-
From: Mark Fuqua [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 7:55 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Rick,

A full version of studio is $800.  A full version of Adobe creative suite is
$1200.  Upgrades of course are much less expensive.

People are already working on alternatives using primalScript and ANT.  For
me, I have already set aside my $1000.  Adobe's will be the best for sure
and will be the only one with a visual design component similar to
dreamweaver.  And from what I have seen, it is quite useful.

To each there own.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:01 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


It's hard for me to believe an IDE would be worth
$1000 (oh, excuse, me $999, which is less than $1000 :P )

Most design software, whether it's for web design, as in
Dreamweaver, photo manipulation, as in Photoshop,
graphics, as in Illustrator, etc., is not even that much...most
of it not anywhere near $1000 unless you get everything
in a bundle.

Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance about the Flex IDE,
but with it priced so high (I don't, at this point, see how it could
possibly be worth that much money), it's wide open for
a company with hungrier developers to come in and sell
something for half that and take a lot of business from Adobe
and Flex...what makes it worth $1000?

Rick





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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

I'll give a thorough check-out...thanks for the info, Mark.

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Fuqua [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:55 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> Rick,
> 
> A full version of studio is $800.  A full version of Adobe 
> creative suite is
> $1200.  Upgrades of course are much less expensive.
> 
> People are already working on alternatives using primalScript and 
> ANT.  For
> me, I have already set aside my $1000.  Adobe's will be the best for sure
> and will be the only one with a visual design component similar to
> dreamweaver.  And from what I have seen, it is quite useful.




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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Andy Matthews]

But Flex isn't C++ or Visual Studio, both of which have proved themselves
over time.



-Original Message-
From: Joe Rinehart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:22 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


Hey Rick,

After using Flex Builder 2.0, I can't believe it's only $1,000.
That's pretty dirt cheap in the world of enterprise software, much
less development software - heck, one seat of Visual Studio 2005 Team
Suite can be like $3.5k, and that's *cheap* compared to the price of
some of the Borland modelling/development tools.

-Joe

On 3/1/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's hard for me to believe an IDE would be worth
> $1000 (oh, excuse, me $999, which is less than $1000 :P )
>
> Most design software, whether it's for web design, as in
> Dreamweaver, photo manipulation, as in Photoshop,
> graphics, as in Illustrator, etc., is not even that much...most
> of it not anywhere near $1000 unless you get everything
> in a bundle.
>
> Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance about the Flex IDE,
> but with it priced so high (I don't, at this point, see how it could
> possibly be worth that much money), it's wide open for
> a company with hungrier developers to come in and sell
> something for half that and take a lot of business from Adobe
> and Flex...what makes it worth $1000?
>
> Rick
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:07 PM
> > To: CF-Talk
> > Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> >
> >
> > Wonder how long it will be before someone just writes their own IDE or
> > plug
> > in for Eclipse and offers it for free, much like CFEclipse.  Or is there
> > something legally preventing that from happening?
> >
> >
> > According to Ben Forta, there is nothing legally to keep someone from
> > doing exactly that.  As Ben put it, it would be very difficult to
> > reproduce the entirety of the functionality they have put in Flex
> > builder and he thinks enough people will still continue to pay for
> > Adobe's IDE because of those features for a while.  I am very interested
> > to see what free-ware versions will come about, however.
> >
> > ~Brad
> >
> >
> >
>
>



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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Mark Fuqua]

Rick,

A full version of studio is $800.  A full version of Adobe creative suite is
$1200.  Upgrades of course are much less expensive.

People are already working on alternatives using primalScript and ANT.  For
me, I have already set aside my $1000.  Adobe's will be the best for sure
and will be the only one with a visual design component similar to
dreamweaver.  And from what I have seen, it is quite useful.

To each there own.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:01 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta


It's hard for me to believe an IDE would be worth
$1000 (oh, excuse, me $999, which is less than $1000 :P )

Most design software, whether it's for web design, as in
Dreamweaver, photo manipulation, as in Photoshop,
graphics, as in Illustrator, etc., is not even that much...most
of it not anywhere near $1000 unless you get everything
in a bundle.

Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance about the Flex IDE,
but with it priced so high (I don't, at this point, see how it could
possibly be worth that much money), it's wide open for
a company with hungrier developers to come in and sell
something for half that and take a lot of business from Adobe
and Flex...what makes it worth $1000?

Rick



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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Aaron Rouse]

Depending on what version of it one needs it is not "too pricey"   Oracle
has its Raptor product which is free and should be interesting to see how
much it matures and if it becomes a competitor with Toad.

On 3/1/06, James Holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Tool for Oralce Application Developers. One of the premium
> enterprise-level Oracle developer apps. It costs a packet and it's
> worth every cent.
>
> On 3/2/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > TOAD?
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:10 PM
> > > To: CF-Talk
> > > Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> > >
> > >
> > > You've never used TOAD then...
>
> --
> CFAJAX docs and other useful articles:
> http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/
>
> 

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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[James Holmes]

Tool for Oralce Application Developers. One of the premium
enterprise-level Oracle developer apps. It costs a packet and it's
worth every cent.

On 3/2/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> TOAD?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:10 PM
> > To: CF-Talk
> > Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> >
> >
> > You've never used TOAD then...

--
CFAJAX docs and other useful articles:
http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/

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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

TOAD?

> -Original Message-
> From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:10 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> You've never used TOAD then...
> 



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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

I guess, being a sole proprietor and, hence,
the *only* developer on *staff*, I don't work
in an Enterprise version world...so I'm always
looking for something for just one developer.

Is there a single developer version that's less?

Rick


> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Rinehart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:22 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
>
>
> Hey Rick,
>
> After using Flex Builder 2.0, I can't believe it's only $1,000.
> That's pretty dirt cheap in the world of enterprise software, much
> less development software - heck, one seat of Visual Studio 2005 Team
> Suite can be like $3.5k, and that's *cheap* compared to the price of
> some of the Borland modelling/development tools.
>
> -Joe
>
> On 3/1/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It's hard for me to believe an IDE would be worth
> > $1000 (oh, excuse, me $999, which is less than $1000 :P )
> >
> > Most design software, whether it's for web design, as in
> > Dreamweaver, photo manipulation, as in Photoshop,
> > graphics, as in Illustrator, etc., is not even that much...most
> > of it not anywhere near $1000 unless you get everything
> > in a bundle.
> >
> > Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance about the Flex IDE,
> > but with it priced so high (I don't, at this point, see how it could
> > possibly be worth that much money), it's wide open for
> > a company with hungrier developers to come in and sell
> > something for half that and take a lot of business from Adobe
> > and Flex...what makes it worth $1000?
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:07 PM
> > > To: CF-Talk
> > > Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> > >
> > >
> > > Wonder how long it will be before someone just writes their own IDE or
> > > plug
> > > in for Eclipse and offers it for free, much like CFEclipse.
> Or is there
> > > something legally preventing that from happening?
> > >
> > >
> > > According to Ben Forta, there is nothing legally to keep someone from
> > > doing exactly that.  As Ben put it, it would be very difficult to
> > > reproduce the entirety of the functionality they have put in Flex
> > > builder and he thinks enough people will still continue to pay for
> > > Adobe's IDE because of those features for a while.  I am very
> interested
> > > to see what free-ware versions will come about, however.
> > >
> > > ~Brad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> 

~|
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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Joe Rinehart]

Hey Rick,

After using Flex Builder 2.0, I can't believe it's only $1,000. 
That's pretty dirt cheap in the world of enterprise software, much
less development software - heck, one seat of Visual Studio 2005 Team
Suite can be like $3.5k, and that's *cheap* compared to the price of
some of the Borland modelling/development tools.

-Joe

On 3/1/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's hard for me to believe an IDE would be worth
> $1000 (oh, excuse, me $999, which is less than $1000 :P )
>
> Most design software, whether it's for web design, as in
> Dreamweaver, photo manipulation, as in Photoshop,
> graphics, as in Illustrator, etc., is not even that much...most
> of it not anywhere near $1000 unless you get everything
> in a bundle.
>
> Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance about the Flex IDE,
> but with it priced so high (I don't, at this point, see how it could
> possibly be worth that much money), it's wide open for
> a company with hungrier developers to come in and sell
> something for half that and take a lot of business from Adobe
> and Flex...what makes it worth $1000?
>
> Rick
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:07 PM
> > To: CF-Talk
> > Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> >
> >
> > Wonder how long it will be before someone just writes their own IDE or
> > plug
> > in for Eclipse and offers it for free, much like CFEclipse.  Or is there
> > something legally preventing that from happening?
> >
> >
> > According to Ben Forta, there is nothing legally to keep someone from
> > doing exactly that.  As Ben put it, it would be very difficult to
> > reproduce the entirety of the functionality they have put in Flex
> > builder and he thinks enough people will still continue to pay for
> > Adobe's IDE because of those features for a while.  I am very interested
> > to see what free-ware versions will come about, however.
> >
> > ~Brad
> >
> >
> >
>
> 

~|
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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[James Holmes]

You've never used TOAD then...

On 3/2/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's hard for me to believe an IDE would be worth
> $1000 (oh, excuse, me $999, which is less than $1000 :P )
>
> Most design software, whether it's for web design, as in
> Dreamweaver, photo manipulation, as in Photoshop,
> graphics, as in Illustrator, etc., is not even that much...most
> of it not anywhere near $1000 unless you get everything
> in a bundle.

--
CFAJAX docs and other useful articles:
http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/

~|
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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

Maybe I've been blacklisted... :P

Rick


> -Original Message-
> From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:08 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> Weird, haven't been getting Rick Faircloth's posts in the talk list, but
> I appear to be getting everyone else's messages...
> 
> ~Brad
> 



~|
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RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Rick Faircloth]

It's hard for me to believe an IDE would be worth
$1000 (oh, excuse, me $999, which is less than $1000 :P )

Most design software, whether it's for web design, as in
Dreamweaver, photo manipulation, as in Photoshop,
graphics, as in Illustrator, etc., is not even that much...most
of it not anywhere near $1000 unless you get everything
in a bundle.

Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance about the Flex IDE,
but with it priced so high (I don't, at this point, see how it could
possibly be worth that much money), it's wide open for
a company with hungrier developers to come in and sell
something for half that and take a lot of business from Adobe
and Flex...what makes it worth $1000?

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:07 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Flex 2 and Ben Forta
> 
> 
> Wonder how long it will be before someone just writes their own IDE or
> plug
> in for Eclipse and offers it for free, much like CFEclipse.  Or is there
> something legally preventing that from happening?
> 
> 
> According to Ben Forta, there is nothing legally to keep someone from
> doing exactly that.  As Ben put it, it would be very difficult to
> reproduce the entirety of the functionality they have put in Flex
> builder and he thinks enough people will still continue to pay for
> Adobe's IDE because of those features for a while.  I am very interested
> to see what free-ware versions will come about, however.
> 
> ~Brad
> 
> 
> 

~|
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Re: Flex 2 and Ben Forta

[Aaron Rouse]

Yeah, an exact functionality copy would be difficult but I am sure people
will make IDEs that do enough for their needs.  Should be interesting to see
if those do enough for many others.  I personally will just buy the IDE so
long as the pricing stays in the ballpark ranges I have heard.

On 3/1/06, Brad Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> According to Ben Forta, there is nothing legally to keep someone from
> doing exactly that.  As Ben put it, it would be very difficult to
> reproduce the entirety of the functionality they have put in Flex
> builder and he thinks enough people will still continue to pay for
> Adobe's IDE because of those features for a while.  I am very interested
> to see what free-ware versions will come about, however.
>
> ~Brad
>
>
> 

~|
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