Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Anthony Pace]

I think it has very little, if at all, to do with Apple wanting Adobe to 
produce a better product, and more to do with licensing fees, and 
revenue from app store purchases.  There would be a lot of lost revenue 
from the app store if you could just put flash on your device and play a 
game downloaded off the web for free from a plug-in that passed along 
the capacitance and accelerometer data to the swf.




On 2/4/2010 10:47 AM, Gregory Boudreaux wrote:

Also Flash is playing a bigger role in corporate eLearning, especially
after Adobe ended support for Authorware... and all the third party
development tools that publish .swfs.  In addition to Adobe Connect with
its presentations and virtual classroom features.

My personal opinion is that Jobs is trying to push Adobe to fix whatever
problems he feels the Flash Player has on the Mac and get it to a state
where he feels they can do business.  He is playing this out in the
public arena so that he can build up some support and maybe make Adobe
speed things up a bit.  With the emergence of Google in the mobile
device market, Apple will need to step it up to stay on top the
mountain... and I think one of those things will be to have the Flash
Player on Apple mobile devices.  It will be this big announcement and
everyone will think it is the greatest thing since the iPhone.

gregb

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com)]

how is it as a music player?

a

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 2:24 AM, John R. Sweeney Jr
wrote:

> I've been a Mac/Apple guy since the Apple IIe and I love the iPhone
> (several
> of my friends have them) and I've gotten to use it and take for a spin
> many,
> many times. I just got the Droid around Christmas and its easy, intuitive,
> well organized and I have to admit, for me I like it and find it easier to
> use than the iPhone. I love how I can organize things. It has it
> differences, but overall the experience is excellent and using it is a
> breeze.
>
> And the display for video, games and surfing IS AMAZING. The HD vid's are
> awesome.
>
> Just my 2 cents,
> John
>
>
> on 2/4/10 1:39 PM, Merrill, Jason at jason.merr...@bankofamerica.comwrote:
>
> > Hmm... all the Android phones I have seen, the UI experience was really
> not
> > impressive and not smooth and not intuitive compared to the iPhone OS.
>  It may
> > be as capable, but it's fairly ugly - or at least, I just haven't seen a
> good
> > implementation of it yet.
>
>
> John R. Sweeney Jr.
> Interactive Multimedia Developer
>
>
> OnDemand Interactive Inc
> 945 Washington Blvd.
> Hoffman Estates, IL 60169
> Office/Fax: 847.310.5959
> Cellular: 847.651.4469
> www.ondemandinteractive.com
>
>
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

I personally like the jailbroken iPhone the best.. :)
So much more you can do.

Karl -


On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:24 PM, John R. Sweeney Jr wrote:

I've been a Mac/Apple guy since the Apple IIe and I love the iPhone  
(several
of my friends have them) and I've gotten to use it and take for a  
spin many,
many times. I just got the Droid around Christmas and its easy,  
intuitive,
well organized and I have to admit, for me I like it and find it  
easier to

use than the iPhone. I love how I can organize things. It has it
differences, but overall the experience is excellent and using it is a
breeze.

And the display for video, games and surfing IS AMAZING. The HD  
vid's are

awesome.

Just my 2 cents,
John


on 2/4/10 1:39 PM, Merrill, Jason at  
jason.merr...@bankofamerica.com wrote:


Hmm... all the Android phones I have seen, the UI experience was  
really not
impressive and not smooth and not intuitive compared to the iPhone  
OS.  It may
be as capable, but it's fairly ugly - or at least, I just haven't  
seen a good

implementation of it yet.



John R. Sweeney Jr.
Interactive Multimedia Developer


OnDemand Interactive Inc
945 Washington Blvd.
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169
Office/Fax: 847.310.5959
Cellular: 847.651.4469
www.ondemandinteractive.com


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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[John R. Sweeney Jr]

I've been a Mac/Apple guy since the Apple IIe and I love the iPhone (several
of my friends have them) and I've gotten to use it and take for a spin many,
many times. I just got the Droid around Christmas and its easy, intuitive,
well organized and I have to admit, for me I like it and find it easier to
use than the iPhone. I love how I can organize things. It has it
differences, but overall the experience is excellent and using it is a
breeze.

And the display for video, games and surfing IS AMAZING. The HD vid's are
awesome.

Just my 2 cents,
John


on 2/4/10 1:39 PM, Merrill, Jason at jason.merr...@bankofamerica.com wrote:

> Hmm... all the Android phones I have seen, the UI experience was really not
> impressive and not smooth and not intuitive compared to the iPhone OS.  It may
> be as capable, but it's fairly ugly - or at least, I just haven't seen a good
> implementation of it yet.


John R. Sweeney Jr.
Interactive Multimedia Developer


OnDemand Interactive Inc
945 Washington Blvd.
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169
Office/Fax: 847.310.5959
Cellular: 847.651.4469
www.ondemandinteractive.com


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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

+1

On Feb 4, 2010, at 11:05 AM, Boerner, Brian J wrote:

As wireless device maybe but not 3G -- maybe once network gets up  
to 6 or 7G maybe resistance to flash fades for the handheld  
crowd... who can predict?


Adobe is so passive here -- why not a 'FlashPad' for learning? They  
then could think in terms of downloading apps that are closer to  
game installs on a handheld device... Why not? A 'FlashStore' could  
then take on the 'AppStore'...


Just saying...


-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders- 
boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Mendelsohn, Michael

Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:29 AM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

What's everyone's take on a possible Google tablet running on  
Android?  Of course, with the Flash Player that Adobe is building  
for Android.  I saw a mockup yesterday, I believe on cnn.com.  Say  
that has Flash on it, why bother with an iPad, except to feel more  
sophisticated or something.


- MM

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Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> GEEZ!!  Enough already.  Where's the list moderator when you really need
> him?   Finding the guy is not all that intuitive. :)

Yeah, well, he's kind of a dick anyway.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Merrill, Jason]

>> I think it's an important distinction, though. Many people use
>>"intuitive" this way, and many other people take what they said using
>>the actual meaning of the word, leading to significant confusion,
>>products failing or succeeding, etc. It makes a big difference in my
>>own observation.
>>Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software

GEEZ!!  Enough already.  Where's the list moderator when you really need
him?   Finding the guy is not all that intuitive. :) 


Jason Merrill 

Bank of  America  Global Learning 
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)



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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> Wow.  I think you're over-thinking things, or at least taking my comments too 
> literally.  :)  You know what I meant.

I think it's an important distinction, though. Many people use
"intuitive" this way, and many other people take what they said using
the actual meaning of the word, leading to significant confusion,
products failing or succeeding, etc. It makes a big difference in my
own observation.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[raymondp413]

I just read an article by Jared M. Spool titled "What Makes a Design Seem 
'Intuitive,'" (http://www.uie.com/articles/design_intuitive/).  Thought it 
might help flesh out this discussion about "intuitive" interfaces.

Also, from dictionary.reference.com:
* Intuitive: perceiving by intuition, as a person or the mind.
* Intuition: direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any 
reasoning process; immediate apprehension 
* Explicit: fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely 
implied; unequivocal: explicit instructions; an explicit act of violence; 
explicit language. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/explicit)

Thanks,
Raymond Simmons
Neon Sky Creative Media, Inc.


 "Merrill wrote: 
> Wow.  I think you're over-thinking things, or at least taking my comments too 
> literally.  :)  You know what I meant.
> 
> 
> Jason Merrill 
> 
> Bank of  America  Global Learning 
> Learning & Performance Soluions
> 
> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our 
> Instructional Technology Design Blog
> (note: these are for Bank of America employees only)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:06 PM
> To: Flash Coders List
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> 
> > In my head, "intuitive" does in fact mean "easier to use" and
> > "approachable".  I haven't seen the Droid's implementation though...
> > maybe it's better.
> 
> But this ease of use doesn't come from intuition, it comes from
> learned experience with other things. If I took a Droid and an iPhone
> to my father-in-law, he'd be equally perplexed by both. And for him to
> zoom in on a browser page, he'd need to know to double-tap on the
> Droid, and pinch-to-zoom on the iPhone. Neither is anything he could
> infer without prior experience. You don't go double-tapping or
> pinching things anywhere else to make them zoom in.
> 
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
> http://training.figleaf.com/
> 
> Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
> GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.
> 
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Jer Brand]

I've been dipping my toes in to both iPhone and Android dev. I think
people find the iPhone interface more "polished" and that translates,
for them, to intuitive -- it's consistency, and it is a good thing
that has made the iPhone very successful.

I want consistency in my DVR, TV, component systems, etc. But for a
hand-held computer -- and that's what I see these as -- I want
control.  We're dumping our iPhone/iPod Touches at home. Wife wanted a
MyTouch and I'm gonna order a Nexus One (once I get up the cash).

Personal preference. Same way some like OS X, some like *nix (and some
are stuck on Windows ;-)

[Stopping my self from going on about how Apple treats their
developers vs how Android or Adobe or Microsoft does, but resisting
the massive OT rant. However, THIS will be one of the things that
sinks them in the end.]

Jer
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Merrill, Jason]

Wow.  I think you're over-thinking things, or at least taking my comments too 
literally.  :)  You know what I meant.


Jason Merrill 

Bank of  America  Global Learning 
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our Instructional 
Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:06 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

> In my head, "intuitive" does in fact mean "easier to use" and
> "approachable".  I haven't seen the Droid's implementation though...
> maybe it's better.

But this ease of use doesn't come from intuition, it comes from
learned experience with other things. If I took a Droid and an iPhone
to my father-in-law, he'd be equally perplexed by both. And for him to
zoom in on a browser page, he'd need to know to double-tap on the
Droid, and pinch-to-zoom on the iPhone. Neither is anything he could
infer without prior experience. You don't go double-tapping or
pinching things anywhere else to make them zoom in.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> In my head, "intuitive" does in fact mean "easier to use" and
> "approachable".  I haven't seen the Droid's implementation though...
> maybe it's better.

But this ease of use doesn't come from intuition, it comes from
learned experience with other things. If I took a Droid and an iPhone
to my father-in-law, he'd be equally perplexed by both. And for him to
zoom in on a browser page, he'd need to know to double-tap on the
Droid, and pinch-to-zoom on the iPhone. Neither is anything he could
infer without prior experience. You don't go double-tapping or
pinching things anywhere else to make them zoom in.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Boerner, Brian J]

Sorry, it was pointed out to  me that Adobe does have an app store - the 
exchange... maybe it could be managed more like Apple's... seems to me 
something big needs to happen to 'stop the bleeding'

>From where I am I noted that ajax took a major bite out of "Rich Internet 
>Applications" done in Flash simply because there were more developers for it 
>and it made more sense from maintenance perspective.

For every project there is the ideal platform but it does seems to me that 
google, blackberry others are all doing the appStore deal - hopefully flash can 
get in on each and every one even if they don't get in on Apple... maybe then 
they will start to flex some muscle... To me they're starting to look like 
they're hoping for kindness of others vs charting a course



-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:23 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

> I'm frustrated because Apple is dictating in that market and Adobe is 
> passive about it... What do you think about the FlashApp
> Store?

I think that one of the great benefits of Flash is that it lets me add
functionality beyond HTML to HTML/HTTP delivery. I don't need a store
for Flash. And that's really the problem, from Apple's perspective.
The App Store is the big, long-term revenue generator from Apple's
perspective. The iPads, etc, are razors, and the App Store sells razor
blades. Apple doesn't want people getting free razor blades off the
street, so to speak.

> While Lynch is weighing options Apple has done all of this. As a CTO do you 
> think they're that well postioned? Should people
> abandon the Apple SDK for Flash? Where's the case being made that it should 
> be?

Adobe is in the position that they're in. There's not a lot they can
do to force Apple to let Flash on the iPhone OS. It's clear that
there's no technical limitation, as Flash can run on all sorts of
devices. So, Adobe has to bet that they're going to win - that enough
devices will support Flash. And I think that, while it's unfortunate
that Apple probably won't give in to Adobe on this, Apple doesn't have
enough marketshare to make that much of a difference. It's important
to remember this - while lots of people have iPhones, etc, they
certainly don't have market dominance there. And, if enough people
have better experiences on other devices that do support Flash, that
will motivate some people to move from the iPhone to those other
devices. The same also applies to the iPad, which at this point is
really an unknown quantity.

> I really think Flash does have potential to be great in that marketplace just 
> wondering what's holding them up from promoting
> themselves as major players there.

I think that's the release of FP 10.1 across its targeted platforms.
When that happens, I think that'll make a big difference.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Merrill, Jason]

>>"(You've really hit one of my pet peeves with "intuitive".)"
>>" equally approachable, and in many ways I find the
>>Android interface easier to use"

In my head, "intuitive" does in fact mean "easier to use" and
"approachable".  I haven't seen the Droid's implementation though...
maybe it's better.  

Jason Merrill 

Bank of  America  Global Learning 
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)



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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> Hmm... all the Android phones I have seen, the UI experience was really not 
> impressive and not smooth and not intuitive
> compared to the iPhone OS.  It may be as capable, but it's fairly ugly - or 
> at least, I just haven't seen a good implementation of it
> yet.

Well, I don't find either interface especially intuitive. Because they
aren't. (You've really hit one of my pet peeves with "intuitive".) But
I do find them equally approachable, and in many ways I find the
Android interface easier to use. I'm using a Droid (running 2.0) so I
will admit that it's a bit different than 1.5/1.6 devices. I'm able to
do more with it in less time than I could using the iPhone. I can
check mail and compose messages easier, synchronization works better,
there's a native Google Voice app, etc, etc. I can click on the
address of a calendar event, and get automatic GPS navigation to that
address. I could go on and on, but you get the point I guess.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Merrill, Jason]

Hmm... all the Android phones I have seen, the UI experience was really not 
impressive and not smooth and not intuitive compared to the iPhone OS.  It may 
be as capable, but it's fairly ugly - or at least, I just haven't seen a good 
implementation of it yet.


Jason Merrill 

Bank of  America  Global Learning 
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our Instructional 
Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:37 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

> I'm suspecting something,  maybe adobe and android are planning something,
> maybe one of them, so just let Jobs to fantasize with the world domination,
> true that sooner or later flash will emerge even better.

No suspicion of planning needed! FP 10.1 will soon be available for
Android, and Chrome OS will have no problem running Flash. So all
these new phones and tablets coming out using both of those OSs are
covered.

And Android is sweet. The ONLY competitive advantage Apple has with
the iPhone is the breadth of the App Store. I wouldn't want an iPhone,
but I have an iPod Touch just for that. But I suspect that'll change
over time as well, as developers embrace Android. There's a market for
$0.99 fart apps on the Android as well, I'm sure.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> I'm suspecting something,  maybe adobe and android are planning something,
> maybe one of them, so just let Jobs to fantasize with the world domination,
> true that sooner or later flash will emerge even better.

No suspicion of planning needed! FP 10.1 will soon be available for
Android, and Chrome OS will have no problem running Flash. So all
these new phones and tablets coming out using both of those OSs are
covered.

And Android is sweet. The ONLY competitive advantage Apple has with
the iPhone is the breadth of the App Store. I wouldn't want an iPhone,
but I have an iPod Touch just for that. But I suspect that'll change
over time as well, as developers embrace Android. There's a market for
$0.99 fart apps on the Android as well, I'm sure.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Gustavo Duenas]

I'm suspecting something,  maybe adobe and android are planning  
something, maybe one of them, so just let Jobs to fantasize with the  
world domination, true that sooner or later flash will emerge even  
better.


Gus

On Feb 4, 2010, at 2:01 PM, Boerner, Brian J wrote:

I not saying 3G can't run it -- but that's the impression that  
customers have...


Not get into hardware business but maybe they should partner for  
FlashPad and FlashStore


I'm frustrated because Apple is dictating in that market and Adobe  
is passive about it... What do you think about the FlashApp Store?


While Lynch is weighing options Apple has done all of this. As a CTO  
do you think they're that well postioned? Should people abandon the  
Apple SDK for Flash? Where's the case being made that it should be?


I really think Flash does have potential to be great in that  
marketplace just wondering what's holding them up from promoting  
themselves as major players there.



-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
] On Behalf Of Dave Watts

Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:29 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

As wireless device maybe but not 3G -- maybe once network gets up  
to 6 or 7G maybe resistance to flash fades for the handheld

crowd... who can predict?


Flash will work fine for all the people running Android and Symbian,
and probably WinMo, when FP 10.1 comes out. I suspect that'll be
pretty soon. Flash Player 7 actually worked just fine on my old WinMo
phone. 3G was good enough.

Adobe is so passive here -- why not a 'FlashPad' for learning? They  
then could think in terms of downloading apps that are closer
to game installs on a handheld device... Why not? A 'FlashStore'  
could then take on the 'AppStore'...


Adobe should get into the hardware business? Really? Very soon,
practically anything not iPhone/iPod/iPad will be able to run Flash!

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> I'm frustrated because Apple is dictating in that market and Adobe is 
> passive about it... What do you think about the FlashApp
> Store?

I think that one of the great benefits of Flash is that it lets me add
functionality beyond HTML to HTML/HTTP delivery. I don't need a store
for Flash. And that's really the problem, from Apple's perspective.
The App Store is the big, long-term revenue generator from Apple's
perspective. The iPads, etc, are razors, and the App Store sells razor
blades. Apple doesn't want people getting free razor blades off the
street, so to speak.

> While Lynch is weighing options Apple has done all of this. As a CTO do you 
> think they're that well postioned? Should people
> abandon the Apple SDK for Flash? Where's the case being made that it should 
> be?

Adobe is in the position that they're in. There's not a lot they can
do to force Apple to let Flash on the iPhone OS. It's clear that
there's no technical limitation, as Flash can run on all sorts of
devices. So, Adobe has to bet that they're going to win - that enough
devices will support Flash. And I think that, while it's unfortunate
that Apple probably won't give in to Adobe on this, Apple doesn't have
enough marketshare to make that much of a difference. It's important
to remember this - while lots of people have iPhones, etc, they
certainly don't have market dominance there. And, if enough people
have better experiences on other devices that do support Flash, that
will motivate some people to move from the iPhone to those other
devices. The same also applies to the iPad, which at this point is
really an unknown quantity.

> I really think Flash does have potential to be great in that marketplace just 
> wondering what's holding them up from promoting
> themselves as major players there.

I think that's the release of FP 10.1 across its targeted platforms.
When that happens, I think that'll make a big difference.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Boerner, Brian J]

I not saying 3G can't run it -- but that's the impression that customers have...

Not get into hardware business but maybe they should partner for FlashPad and 
FlashStore 

I'm frustrated because Apple is dictating in that market and Adobe is 
passive about it... What do you think about the FlashApp Store? 

While Lynch is weighing options Apple has done all of this. As a CTO do you 
think they're that well postioned? Should people abandon the Apple SDK for 
Flash? Where's the case being made that it should be?

I really think Flash does have potential to be great in that marketplace just 
wondering what's holding them up from promoting themselves as major players 
there.


-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:29 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

> As wireless device maybe but not 3G -- maybe once network gets up to 6 or 7G 
> maybe resistance to flash fades for the handheld
> crowd... who can predict?

Flash will work fine for all the people running Android and Symbian,
and probably WinMo, when FP 10.1 comes out. I suspect that'll be
pretty soon. Flash Player 7 actually worked just fine on my old WinMo
phone. 3G was good enough.

> Adobe is so passive here -- why not a 'FlashPad' for learning? They then 
> could think in terms of downloading apps that are closer
> to game installs on a handheld device... Why not? A 'FlashStore' could then 
> take on the 'AppStore'...

Adobe should get into the hardware business? Really? Very soon,
practically anything not iPhone/iPod/iPad will be able to run Flash!

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> As wireless device maybe but not 3G -- maybe once network gets up to 6 or 7G 
> maybe resistance to flash fades for the handheld
> crowd... who can predict?

Flash will work fine for all the people running Android and Symbian,
and probably WinMo, when FP 10.1 comes out. I suspect that'll be
pretty soon. Flash Player 7 actually worked just fine on my old WinMo
phone. 3G was good enough.

> Adobe is so passive here -- why not a 'FlashPad' for learning? They then 
> could think in terms of downloading apps that are closer
> to game installs on a handheld device... Why not? A 'FlashStore' could then 
> take on the 'AppStore'...

Adobe should get into the hardware business? Really? Very soon,
practically anything not iPhone/iPod/iPad will be able to run Flash!

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Boerner, Brian J]

As wireless device maybe but not 3G -- maybe once network gets up to 6 or 7G 
maybe resistance to flash fades for the handheld crowd... who can predict?

Adobe is so passive here -- why not a 'FlashPad' for learning? They then could 
think in terms of downloading apps that are closer to game installs on a 
handheld device... Why not? A 'FlashStore' could then take on the 'AppStore'... 

Just saying...


-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Mendelsohn, 
Michael
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:29 AM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

What's everyone's take on a possible Google tablet running on Android?  Of 
course, with the Flash Player that Adobe is building for Android.  I saw a 
mockup yesterday, I believe on cnn.com.  Say that has Flash on it, why bother 
with an iPad, except to feel more sophisticated or something.

- MM

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com)]

is that the msi built one?

that looked nice

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Mendelsohn, Michael <
michael.mendels...@fmglobal.com> wrote:

> What's everyone's take on a possible Google tablet running on Android?  Of
> course, with the Flash Player that Adobe is building for Android.  I saw a
> mockup yesterday, I believe on cnn.com.  Say that has Flash on it, why
> bother with an iPad, except to feel more sophisticated or something.
>
> - MM
>
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Mattheis, Erik (MIN - WSW)]

Afterwards, Macromedia bribed - er, hired Nielsen as a usability consultant. I 
wonder if Adobe will offer Jobs $1 a year for some important sounding title.

_ _ _
Erik Mattheis
Senior Web Developer
Minneapolis
T  952 346 6610
C 612 377 2272

Weber Shandwick
Advocacy starts here.

PRWeek Global Agency Report Card 2009 - Gold Medal Winner
The Holmes Report Global Agency of the Year
PR News Agency of the Year

-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Brian Mays
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 5:39 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

I'm going to chime in to say this current tide reminds me of the hubbub that
rose up when this article was written:

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html

The article's title: Flash is 99% bad.
It was published 10 years ago.

We've survived and evolved.

Brian Mays

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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Mendelsohn, Michael]

What's everyone's take on a possible Google tablet running on Android?  Of 
course, with the Flash Player that Adobe is building for Android.  I saw a 
mockup yesterday, I believe on cnn.com.  Say that has Flash on it, why bother 
with an iPad, except to feel more sophisticated or something.

- MM

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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Gregory Boudreaux]

My statement didn't refer to Jobs controlling the platform.  IMO, he is
doing what he thinks he needs to do to get the Flash player on his
devices.  Adobe will have the Flash Player on every non-Apple device in
the near future... and I think Jobs is positioning his company for some
concessions to get it on his devices as well.  Again this is just my
opinion.

Also the Appstore money, while nice to the bottom line, is peanuts
compared to the money they make on hardware sales.  Jobs wants to sell
mobile devices and a future selling point will be the Flash Player...
IMO.

gregb




-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Andrews
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:07 AM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Gregory Boudreaux wrote:
> Also Flash is playing a bigger role in corporate eLearning, especially
> after Adobe ended support for Authorware... and all the third party
> development tools that publish .swfs.  In addition to Adobe Connect
with
> its presentations and virtual classroom features.
>
> My personal opinion is that Jobs is trying to push Adobe to fix
whatever
> problems he feels the Flash Player has on the Mac and get it to a
state
> where he feels they can do business.  He is playing this out in the
> public arena so that he can build up some support and maybe make Adobe
> speed things up a bit.  With the emergence of Google in the mobile
> device market, Apple will need to step it up to stay on top the
> mountain... and I think one of those things will be to have the Flash
> Player on Apple mobile devices.  It will be this big announcement and
> everyone will think it is the greatest thing since the iPhone.
>   
It's not technical. App via Appstore = apple income $$$. App via flash 
developer = 0$

Anyway, we can talk all we like Jobs is in control of the platform, not 
Adobe. Adobe has taken the cross-compiling route to leverage "native" 
flash onto the platform.

Paul
> gregb
>
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>   

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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Merrill, Jason]

>> Also Flash is playing a bigger role in corporate eLearning especially
>> after Adobe ended support for Authorware

Yep - agree there - that's what pays my bills and most of the people I
work with.  Although, we dropped Authorware years ago, and I dropped
around 2001.  I run the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer
Community, a Flash user group, and we meet monthly.  I have about 80
employees in the group.  

>> Apple will need to step it up to stay on top the
>> mountain... and I think one of those things will be to have the Flash
>> Player on Apple mobile devices.  

Yeah, would be nice, but Apple has a history of painting themselves into
a corner and either not caring, or refusing to come out.  I don't think
it will happen, at least not anytime soon.  I agree with Paul, it's all
about the app store and money.  Flash or Silverlight support would take
a big chunk of that away (though I don't think as big of a chunk as
Apple thinks  - iPhone app development is in full swing and it's making
developers money).



Jason Merrill 

Bank of  America  Global Learning 
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)



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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Paul Andrews]

Gregory Boudreaux wrote:

Also Flash is playing a bigger role in corporate eLearning, especially
after Adobe ended support for Authorware... and all the third party
development tools that publish .swfs.  In addition to Adobe Connect with
its presentations and virtual classroom features.

My personal opinion is that Jobs is trying to push Adobe to fix whatever
problems he feels the Flash Player has on the Mac and get it to a state
where he feels they can do business.  He is playing this out in the
public arena so that he can build up some support and maybe make Adobe
speed things up a bit.  With the emergence of Google in the mobile
device market, Apple will need to step it up to stay on top the
mountain... and I think one of those things will be to have the Flash
Player on Apple mobile devices.  It will be this big announcement and
everyone will think it is the greatest thing since the iPhone.
  
It's not technical. App via Appstore = apple income $$$. App via flash 
developer = 0$


Anyway, we can talk all we like Jobs is in control of the platform, not 
Adobe. Adobe has taken the cross-compiling route to leverage "native" 
flash onto the platform.


Paul

gregb

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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Andrew Murphy]

Yes, you do indeed.

I'm looking forward to AIR 2.0 and the v10.1 plugin which will support
multi-touch and gestures.


--
Andrew Murphy
Interactive Media Developer
amur...@delvinia.com

Delvinia
370 King Street West, 5th Floor, Box 4 
Toronto Canada M5V 1J9
P (416) 364-1455 ext. 232
F (416) 364-9830  
W www.delvinia.com



 

> -Original Message-
> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf 
> Of Gustavo Duenas
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:12 AM
> To: Flash Coders List
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but for a touch screen flash based 
> application you will need a monitor with touch screen hardware right?
> 
> 
> gus
> 
> 
> On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:21 AM, Karl DeSaulniers wrote:
> 
> > Good to know. I guess I will have to try and build what I 
> am thinking 
> > of. lol I'll make it my first Air project. :) Thanks 
> everyone for the 
> > input,
> >
> > Karl
> >
> >
> > On Feb 4, 2010, at 6:56 AM, Andrew Murphy wrote:
> >
> >> I recently coded an AIR app for our reception area touch 
> screen which 
> >> demos one of Delvinia's other productions by loading it 
> into an HTML 
> >> component, that website includes a SWF embedded on the page and it 
> >> runs just fine in the HTML component in AIR.
> >>
> >> Building a touch screen keyboard in AIR that communicates 
> with that 
> >> SWF was a bit of a pain, but the SWF itself just loads and runs 
> >> exactly like it would in any other browser.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andrew Murphy
> >> Interactive Media Developer
> >> amur...@delvinia.com
> >>
> >> Delvinia
> >> 370 King Street West, 5th Floor, Box 4 Toronto Canada M5V 
> 1J9 P (416) 
> >> 364-1455 ext. 232 F (416) 364-9830 W www.delvinia.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> >>> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of 
> >>> Merrill, Jason
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:58 PM
> >>> To: Flash Coders List
> >>> Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> >>>
> >>>>> Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but 
> doesn't it 
> >>>>> still have to be installed to work with a browser?
> >>>
> >>> I was mostly kidding, but Adobe AIR does have a web 
> browser control 
> >>> so you can make an app that has web page inside it.
> >>> There are limitations to it of course, like I don't think it 
> >>> supports Flash which is ironic.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jason Merrill
> >>>
> >>> Bank of  America  Global Learning
> >>> Learning & Performance Soluions
> >>>
> >>> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our 
> >>> Instructional Technology Design Blog
> >>> (note: these are for Bank of America employees only)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> >>> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On 
> Behalf Of Karl 
> >>> DeSaulniers
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:51 PM
> >>> To: Flash Coders List
> >>> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> >>>
> >>> Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE, but it 
> >>> has flash and all its capabilities already in it.
> >>> No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.
> >>>
> >>> Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but 
> doesn't it 
> >>> still have to be installed to work with a browser?
> >>>
> >>> Karl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> I say its time for a Flash browser.
> >>>>
> >>>> I thought that was called AIR. :)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Jason Merrill
> >>>>
> >>>> Bank of  America  Global 

RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Gregory Boudreaux]

Also Flash is playing a bigger role in corporate eLearning, especially
after Adobe ended support for Authorware... and all the third party
development tools that publish .swfs.  In addition to Adobe Connect with
its presentations and virtual classroom features.

My personal opinion is that Jobs is trying to push Adobe to fix whatever
problems he feels the Flash Player has on the Mac and get it to a state
where he feels they can do business.  He is playing this out in the
public arena so that he can build up some support and maybe make Adobe
speed things up a bit.  With the emergence of Google in the mobile
device market, Apple will need to step it up to stay on top the
mountain... and I think one of those things will be to have the Flash
Player on Apple mobile devices.  It will be this big announcement and
everyone will think it is the greatest thing since the iPhone.

gregb

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Glen Pike]

Yep - we have these too, except 3M's touchscreen drivers are a b***h to 
get working on recent versions of Linux / X-Windows.


Gustavo Duenas wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but for a touch screen flash based application 
you will need a monitor with touch screen hardware right?



gus


On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:21 AM, Karl DeSaulniers wrote:

Good to know. I guess I will have to try and build what I am thinking 
of. lol

I'll make it my first Air project. :)
Thanks everyone for the input,

Karl


On Feb 4, 2010, at 6:56 AM, Andrew Murphy wrote:

I recently coded an AIR app for our reception area touch screen 
which demos
one of Delvinia's other productions by loading it into an HTML 
component,
that website includes a SWF embedded on the page and it runs just 
fine in

the HTML component in AIR.

Building a touch screen keyboard in AIR that communicates with that 
SWF was

a bit of a pain, but the SWF itself just loads and runs exactly like it
would in any other browser.


--
Andrew Murphy
Interactive Media Developer
amur...@delvinia.com

Delvinia
370 King Street West, 5th Floor, Box 4
Toronto Canada M5V 1J9
P (416) 364-1455 ext. 232
F (416) 364-9830
W www.delvinia.com






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf
Of Merrill, Jason
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:58 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash


Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it
still have to be installed to work with a browser?


I was mostly kidding, but Adobe AIR does have a web browser
control so you can make an app that has web page inside it.
There are limitations to it of course, like I don't think it
supports Flash which is ironic.


Jason Merrill

Bank of  America  Global Learning
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit
our Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf
Of Karl DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:51 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE,
but it has flash and all its capabilities already in it.
No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.

Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but
doesn't it still have to be installed to work with a browser?

Karl


On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:


I say its time for a Flash browser.


I thought that was called AIR. :)


Jason Merrill

Bank of  America  Global Learning
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On

Behalf Of Karl

DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Hello,
I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but

I have to

say one thing..

I say its time for a Flash browser.
No more installing plugins,
no more yellow line around your swf,
and no more relying on another browser to run flash.

Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to

another level

and another market.
All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple
platforms.
You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with
iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..

like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app

Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake

and eat it

too, you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont

be anything

anyone can do.
Oh, well, except catch up.. :)

+1 Flash for ever!

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Gustavo Duenas]

Correct me if I'm wrong but for a touch screen flash based application  
you will need a monitor with touch screen hardware right?



gus


On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:21 AM, Karl DeSaulniers wrote:

Good to know. I guess I will have to try and build what I am  
thinking of. lol

I'll make it my first Air project. :)
Thanks everyone for the input,

Karl


On Feb 4, 2010, at 6:56 AM, Andrew Murphy wrote:

I recently coded an AIR app for our reception area touch screen  
which demos
one of Delvinia's other productions by loading it into an HTML  
component,
that website includes a SWF embedded on the page and it runs just  
fine in

the HTML component in AIR.

Building a touch screen keyboard in AIR that communicates with that  
SWF was
a bit of a pain, but the SWF itself just loads and runs exactly  
like it

would in any other browser.


--
Andrew Murphy
Interactive Media Developer
amur...@delvinia.com

Delvinia
370 King Street West, 5th Floor, Box 4
Toronto Canada M5V 1J9
P (416) 364-1455 ext. 232
F (416) 364-9830
W www.delvinia.com






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf
Of Merrill, Jason
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:58 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash


Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it
still have to be installed to work with a browser?


I was mostly kidding, but Adobe AIR does have a web browser
control so you can make an app that has web page inside it.
There are limitations to it of course, like I don't think it
supports Flash which is ironic.


Jason Merrill

Bank of  America  Global Learning
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit
our Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf
Of Karl DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:51 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE,
but it has flash and all its capabilities already in it.
No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.

Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but
doesn't it still have to be installed to work with a browser?

Karl


On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:


I say its time for a Flash browser.


I thought that was called AIR. :)


Jason Merrill

Bank of  America  Global Learning
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On

Behalf Of Karl

DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Hello,
I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but

I have to

say one thing..

I say its time for a Flash browser.
No more installing plugins,
no more yellow line around your swf,
and no more relying on another browser to run flash.

Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to

another level

and another market.
All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple
platforms.
You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with
iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..

like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app

Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake

and eat it

too, you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont

be anything

anyone can do.
Oh, well, except catch up.. :)

+1 Flash for ever!

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Good to know. I guess I will have to try and build what I am thinking  
of. lol

I'll make it my first Air project. :)
Thanks everyone for the input,

Karl


On Feb 4, 2010, at 6:56 AM, Andrew Murphy wrote:

I recently coded an AIR app for our reception area touch screen  
which demos
one of Delvinia's other productions by loading it into an HTML  
component,
that website includes a SWF embedded on the page and it runs just  
fine in

the HTML component in AIR.

Building a touch screen keyboard in AIR that communicates with that  
SWF was
a bit of a pain, but the SWF itself just loads and runs exactly  
like it

would in any other browser.


--
Andrew Murphy
Interactive Media Developer
amur...@delvinia.com

Delvinia
370 King Street West, 5th Floor, Box 4
Toronto Canada M5V 1J9
P (416) 364-1455 ext. 232
F (416) 364-9830
W www.delvinia.com






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf
Of Merrill, Jason
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:58 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash


Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it
still have to be installed to work with a browser?


I was mostly kidding, but Adobe AIR does have a web browser
control so you can make an app that has web page inside it.
There are limitations to it of course, like I don't think it
supports Flash which is ironic.


Jason Merrill

Bank of  America  Global Learning
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit
our Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf
Of Karl DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:51 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE,
but it has flash and all its capabilities already in it.
No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.

Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but
doesn't it still have to be installed to work with a browser?

Karl


On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:


I say its time for a Flash browser.


I thought that was called AIR. :)


Jason Merrill

Bank of  America  Global Learning
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On

Behalf Of Karl

DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Hello,
I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but

I have to

say one thing..

I say its time for a Flash browser.
No more installing plugins,
no more yellow line around your swf,
and no more relying on another browser to run flash.

Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to

another level

and another market.
All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple
platforms.
You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with
iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..

like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app

Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake

and eat it

too, you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont

be anything

anyone can do.
Oh, well, except catch up.. :)

+1 Flash for ever!

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Andrew Murphy]

I recently coded an AIR app for our reception area touch screen which demos
one of Delvinia's other productions by loading it into an HTML component,
that website includes a SWF embedded on the page and it runs just fine in
the HTML component in AIR.

Building a touch screen keyboard in AIR that communicates with that SWF was
a bit of a pain, but the SWF itself just loads and runs exactly like it
would in any other browser.


--
Andrew Murphy
Interactive Media Developer
amur...@delvinia.com

Delvinia
370 King Street West, 5th Floor, Box 4 
Toronto Canada M5V 1J9
P (416) 364-1455 ext. 232
F (416) 364-9830  
W www.delvinia.com



 

> -Original Message-
> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf 
> Of Merrill, Jason
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:58 PM
> To: Flash Coders List
> Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> 
> >> Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it 
> >>still have to be installed to work with a browser?
> 
> I was mostly kidding, but Adobe AIR does have a web browser 
> control so you can make an app that has web page inside it.  
> There are limitations to it of course, like I don't think it 
> supports Flash which is ironic.
> 
> 
> Jason Merrill 
> 
> Bank of  America  Global Learning
> Learning & Performance Soluions
> 
> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit 
> our Instructional Technology Design Blog
> (note: these are for Bank of America employees only)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf 
> Of Karl DeSaulniers
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:51 PM
> To: Flash Coders List
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> 
> Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE, 
> but it has flash and all its capabilities already in it.
> No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.
> 
> Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but 
> doesn't it still have to be installed to work with a browser?
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:
> 
> >>> I say its time for a Flash browser.
> >
> > I thought that was called AIR. :)
> >
> >
> > Jason Merrill
> >
> > Bank of  America  Global Learning
> > Learning & Performance Soluions
> >
> > Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our 
> > Instructional Technology Design Blog
> > (note: these are for Bank of America employees only)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On 
> Behalf Of Karl 
> > DeSaulniers
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
> > To: Flash Coders List
> > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> >
> > Hello,
> > I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but 
> I have to 
> > say one thing..
> >
> > I say its time for a Flash browser.
> > No more installing plugins,
> > no more yellow line around your swf,
> > and no more relying on another browser to run flash.
> >
> > Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to 
> another level 
> > and another market.
> > All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple 
> > platforms.
> > You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with 
> > iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..
> >
> > like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app
> >
> > Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake 
> and eat it 
> > too, you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont 
> be anything 
> > anyone can do.
> > Oh, well, except catch up.. :)
> >
> > +1 Flash for ever!
> >
> > Karl DeSaulniers
> > Design Drumm
> > http://designdrumm.com
> >
> > ___
> > Flashcoders mailing list
> > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
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> Karl DeSaulniers
> Design Drumm
> http://designdrumm.com
> 
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Gustavo Duenas]

on other thoughts , I've always loved Hillman Curtis, the agency I  
mean, still straight though. Flash is still the best way to create  
cheap and creatives animations for the web... still unbeatable.


Gus
On Feb 3, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Jer Brand wrote:


"Just as people fall down and worship Steve Jobs today people fell
down and worshipped Jakob Nielssen in 2000."

... wait... I thought, as Flash developers, we were morally obligated
to worship Hillman Curtis back then ;-)


Jer
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Jer Brand]

"Just as people fall down and worship Steve Jobs today people fell
down and worshipped Jakob Nielssen in 2000."

... wait... I thought, as Flash developers, we were morally obligated
to worship Hillman Curtis back then ;-)


Jer
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[David Hunter]

I have made a very basic browser as an AIR app (just to test it out) and it 
definitely displays flash sites.

> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:10:16 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> From: dwa...@figleaf.com
> To: flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> 
> > >  I don't think it supports Flash which is ironic.
> >
> > Oh really! Wow that seems a bit odd.
> 
> Not really, because AIR can run Flash directly, rather than within a
> browser. You don't need Flash within your browser within Flash.
> 
> Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
> http://www.figleaf.com/
> http://training.figleaf.com/
> 
> Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
> GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
> instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.
> 
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Gustavo Duenas]

well I'm a flash designer now, as I was graphic designer in the past,  
same way I was an artist, illustrator and copy writer before that, I  
think you can always learn new things and new tricks. My point is the  
guy from the blog is right if Flash disappears, there is always  
something else to learn maybe with the same level of animation,  
creativity and interactivity as flash...I don't know but my hint is  
that Flash has been tried to be let down in the past and yet we are in  
the 2010 and there is a lot of interactive agencies, based on flash.  
that means something Mr. Jobs...but I'm a still loving macs...or  
hackingtosh my next garage project.


cya.

Gus
On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Brian Mays wrote:

I'm going to chime in to say this current tide reminds me of the  
hubbub that

rose up when this article was written:

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html

The article's title: Flash is 99% bad.
It was published 10 years ago.

We've survived and evolved.

Brian Mays

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Brian Mays]

In 2000 when the article was written there was no such thing as swfaddress,
or swfobject. Point being, everything this article criticized ended up being
addressed either by Adobe or developers creating solutions for those issues.

The uprising that we're seeing the last few days is very similar to the
uprising we saw when this article was put out. Just as people fall down and
worship Steve Jobs today people fell down and worshipped Jakob Nielssen in
2000. If he said, it was gospel. It caused a lot of ruckus and for YEARS was
the sole piece that many people would use when deriding Flash.

But we made it through that by proving that Flash was up to the task, and
moreso that we as developers were up to the task.

Brian 


On 2/3/10 6:02 PM, "Gustavo Duenas" 
wrote:

> "The "Back" button does not work. If you navigate within a Flash
> object, the standard backtracking method takes you out of the
> multimedia object and not, as expected, to the previous state."
> 
> has he/she ever tried the swfaddress ? I've done that and it works
> with the back and the forth button.
> 
> the rest of the article looks like the not to do list for flash
> designers. personally I've overpass the intros, using animated
> backgrounds now, they look nice most of the time :) and there is
> always the warning or advice page in the index (this site has flash,
> if you don't have the plug-in installed click here to download or got
> to the html version) more versions more hours for us, more pay...my
> two cents.
> 
> Gus

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Gustavo Duenas]

"The "Back" button does not work. If you navigate within a Flash  
object, the standard backtracking method takes you out of the  
multimedia object and not, as expected, to the previous state."


has he/she ever tried the swfaddress ? I've done that and it works  
with the back and the forth button.


the rest of the article looks like the not to do list for flash  
designers. personally I've overpass the intros, using animated  
backgrounds now, they look nice most of the time :) and there is  
always the warning or advice page in the index (this site has flash,  
if you don't have the plug-in installed click here to download or got  
to the html version) more versions more hours for us, more pay...my  
two cents.


Gus


On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Brian Mays wrote:

I'm going to chime in to say this current tide reminds me of the  
hubbub that

rose up when this article was written:

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html

The article's title: Flash is 99% bad.
It was published 10 years ago.

We've survived and evolved.

Brian Mays

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Brian Mays]

I'm going to chime in to say this current tide reminds me of the hubbub that
rose up when this article was written:

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html

The article's title: Flash is 99% bad.
It was published 10 years ago.

We've survived and evolved.

Brian Mays

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Kevin Newman]

I've found that when I break down the options (because I don't care, 
I'll do it in Ajax) by project requirements - Flash is often the better 
choice, from a cost benefit angle - as well as enabling a few more 
things than HTML is even capable of.


It seems easy to argue for Flash, if that's your goal:

Flash does more, and often cheaper to develope for - better tools, more 
consistent cross platform, etc.


HTML is limitted, has many tradeoffs between compatibility, and is 
inconsistent cross platforms (graceful degradation vs. progressive 
enhancement) - and some things simply can't be done - despite the buzz 
(HTML5 video, rich animation). There are other subtle things, that 
clients will eventually notice, and that will drive them back to Flash 
(text rendering can be an issue for clients, but it's not one they 
notice until the end of the probject).


That said, HTML is going to become an option for an increasing portion 
of the kinds of work that Flash is currently used for. I think that's ok 
personally. Sometimes, a quick JS/CSS widget is all you need.


Kevin N.



On 2/3/10 11:55 AM, artur wrote:

from my client ( an established design agency in NYC ):

   artur,

   I've been doing a lot of research and polling of colleagues.

   *Here's my takeaway:*

   - no one knows what's going on
   - flash developers I've spoken to all are saying it's no big deal,
   proceed with flash
   - all designers are making an abrupt shift away from flash, steering
   their clients as a result
   - clients are questioning flash even without prompting
   - media has called for the death of it

   I think the answer is that Flash will need to change ASAP, or else I
   can't recommend it without looking like an ignoramus to clients.
   That sucks, because I love Flash, but it's not where the momentum is
   moving.

   People still look at it as non SEO friendly.


they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - powered by 
WPress or Joomla/Drupal.


any articles , facts, that i can point them to that may change their 
minds?


thanks

artur
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Zeh Fernando]

IE7 and IE8 are a far cry from any sort of HTML5 support. I don't think it's
to support it at all, it's just to make the developer's job less miserable
(considering IE6 is a small part of their audience and it's on the way out
anyway).

Here's something everyone has to keep in mind: even if the HTML5 standard
was finished, and if *all* browsers had versions with full HTML5 support
*today*, it'd still take around 8 years for that to be feasible on
commercial projects, given the pace browser penetration usually follows (IE6
was released 8.5 years ago and it's still used by around 13% of the users*).

Add to that the fact that the HTML5 groups are still fighting over codec
support, nothing's ratified yet, and you begin to see why anyone saying
HTML5 will replace Flash anytime soon is out of their damn minds.

As developers we should not be emotionally attached to a platform and refuse
change. But at the same time, I work in the real world and like to look at
solid data; and the data says using HTML5 today is a pipe dream unless you
want problems with cross-browser development to achieve a ~6% user
penetration.

If you wanna convince clients, give them the numbers.

Zeh

[*]
http://www.statowl.com/web_browser_usage_by_version.php?limit[]=ie&limit[]=firefox&limit[]=safari&limit[]=chrome&limit[]=opera&limit[]=netscape

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote:

> I noticed something interesting, and perhaps relevant, a couple of
> days ago. Google  Docs and Google Apps is going to stop supporting
> older Browsers, like IE 6, on March 1. I understand the move is to
> promote HTML5.
>
> I don't believe Flash is going away soon either. There are too many
> sites out there that use Flash, including the one I'm working on,
> . We're basically a big Flash site, supported by
> the usual HTML, JavaScript, PHP, and the like.
>
> I think somebody else mentioned the fact that Disney uses Flash
> extensively (they do). It would be prohibitively expensive to redo all
> their apps in another language.
>
> I'm not retiring for another 5-6 years, and I expect to be a Flash
> programmer for the rest of my career.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Kerry Thompson
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Mattheis, Erik (MIN - WSW)]

In my experience, it's been several years since I've had to think about 
providing alternate content to anything but search engines, the player 
penetration has been so high for target audiences it hasn't made sense to worry 
about. The two exceptions being when something has to be 508 compliant or when 
the target audience is people who work in the medical field - and my perception 
is that most web browsers that don't have Flash are in hospitals.

_ _ _
Erik Mattheis
Senior Web Developer
Minneapolis
T  952 346 6610
C 612 377 2272

Weber Shandwick
Advocacy starts here.

PRWeek Global Agency Report Card 2009 - Gold Medal Winner
The Holmes Report Global Agency of the Year
PR News Agency of the Year


-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Murphy
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 3:33 PM
To: 'Flash Coders List'
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

It may be helpful to discuss with clients something that we should always be
doing when developing Flash web apps anyway; alternative content.  And I
mean giving the non-Flash user something more than just a link to download
the Flash plugin.


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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Merrill, Jason]

>> Not really, because AIR can run Flash directly, rather than within a
browser. You don't need Flash within your browser within Flash.

Uh, you do if you are using the HTML control to have a section of your AIR app 
act as a browser.  You don't want to miss out on the whole web experience 
inside that window.  What if you wanted a section of your AIR app that showed a 
Web site that used Flash elements within it? 


Jason Merrill 

Bank of  America  Global Learning 
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our Instructional 
Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Dave Watts
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 5:10 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

> >  I don't think it supports Flash which is ironic.
>
> Oh really! Wow that seems a bit odd.

Not really, because AIR can run Flash directly, rather than within a
browser. You don't need Flash within your browser within Flash.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

That almost made my head spin, but I think I got it. :)

On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Bob Wohl wrote:


It does but the real irony is that the flash object displayed in a web
page inside air is embeded inside the air runtime(instance of flash
running inside of air). If that description really makes sense. The
uh... runtime inside the runtime scenario.


Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

That makes sense.
So if I had an air app and I wanted it to say display another persons  
flash website, it will do this like a regular web browser?


On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Dave Watts wrote:


Not really, because AIR can run Flash directly, rather than within a
browser. You don't need Flash within your browser within Flash.


Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Bob Wohl]

It does but the real irony is that the flash object displayed in a web
page inside air is embeded inside the air runtime(instance of flash
running inside of air). If that description really makes sense. The
uh... runtime inside the runtime scenario.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Karl DeSaulniers  wrote:
> Oh really! Wow that seems a bit odd.
>
>
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:
>
>>  I don't think it supports Flash which is ironic.
>
> Karl DeSaulniers
> Design Drumm
> http://designdrumm.com
>
> ___
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Basically,
I was thinking of an app like say safari,
that had the flashplayer and air app already part of the app
and it handled all the other web standard languages as well.
Being a power-house for internet browsing that eliminated
any reason for a client to say "na I dont like flash" or "they say  
flash is dead".

If flash had its own browser that handled flash and air BEAUTIFULLY,
and handled the other HTML languages just as well if not better than  
the apps out there,
then flash will have made itself a nice niche to grow in and I don't  
see it being any type of issue for people to migrate to using just  
that browser.

I would bet money it would blow up.. sry for the slang.


On Feb 3, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Nathan Mynarcik wrote:

Air is an application just like a browser. You can pull HTML  
documents into an AIR app as well. So, yes, if someone wanted to  
make an App that was a browser, I don't see why they couldn't.
AIR does not need a browser to run. Its like starting up any  
program on your pc or mac.


Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> >  I don't think it supports Flash which is ironic.
>
> Oh really! Wow that seems a bit odd.

Not really, because AIR can run Flash directly, rather than within a
browser. You don't need Flash within your browser within Flash.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Jer Brand]

For those who haven't seen it yet

http://www.gskinner.com/blog/archives/2010/02/my_thoughts_on.html

Jer
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Oh really! Wow that seems a bit odd.


On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:


 I don't think it supports Flash which is ironic.


Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Hi Dave,

On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Dave Watts wrote:


I don't see how that would improve anything - instead of people
installing plugins in browsers they already have, they'd have to
install a new browser.



I don't see anything wrong with introducing a new browser that would  
work right off the bat.
I currently have about 3 to 5 browsers already because things don't  
work on just one.




The AIR runtime itself needs to be installed, and your AIR apps need
to be installed on top of that. But once they're installed, you don't
need a browser. It includes Webkit, which is the engine powering
Chrome and Safari.


I see. But for the average user, having a browser that they don't  
have to program,
seems a bit easier and user friendly then even the browser/plugin  
routine we all enjoy currently.


But like I said, it was just a thought.

Thanks for the input.

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Nathan Mynarcik]

Air is an application just like a browser. You can pull HTML documents into an 
AIR app as well. So, yes, if someone wanted to make an App that was a browser, 
I don't see why they couldn't.  
AIR does not need a browser to run. Its like starting up any program on your pc 
or mac. 

 
Nathan Mynarcik
Interactive Web Developer
nat...@mynarcik.com
254.749.2525
www.mynarcik.com

-Original Message-
From: Karl DeSaulniers 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:51:25 
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE, but it has  
flash and all its capabilities already in it.
No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.

Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it  
still have to be installed to work with a browser?

Karl


On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:

>>> I say its time for a Flash browser.
>
> I thought that was called AIR. :)
>
>
> Jason Merrill
>
> Bank of  America  Global Learning
> Learning & Performance Soluions
>
> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
> Instructional Technology Design Blog
> (note: these are for Bank of America employees only)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl
> DeSaulniers
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
> To: Flash Coders List
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
>
> Hello,
> I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but I have to
> say one thing..
>
> I say its time for a Flash browser.
> No more installing plugins,
> no more yellow line around your swf,
> and no more relying on another browser to run flash.
>
> Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to another level
> and another market.
> All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple  
> platforms.
> You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with
> iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..
>
> like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app
>
> Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake and eat
> it too,
> you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont be anything
> anyone can do.
> Oh, well, except catch up.. :)
>
> +1 Flash for ever!
>
> Karl DeSaulniers
> Design Drumm
> http://designdrumm.com
>
> ___
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> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
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> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Merrill, Jason]

>> Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it  
>>still have to be installed to work with a browser?

I was mostly kidding, but Adobe AIR does have a web browser control so
you can make an app that has web page inside it.  There are limitations
to it of course, like I don't think it supports Flash which is ironic.


Jason Merrill 

Bank of  America  Global Learning 
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl
DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:51 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE, but it has  
flash and all its capabilities already in it.
No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.

Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it  
still have to be installed to work with a browser?

Karl


On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:

>>> I say its time for a Flash browser.
>
> I thought that was called AIR. :)
>
>
> Jason Merrill
>
> Bank of  America  Global Learning
> Learning & Performance Soluions
>
> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
> Instructional Technology Design Blog
> (note: these are for Bank of America employees only)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl
> DeSaulniers
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
> To: Flash Coders List
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
>
> Hello,
> I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but I have to
> say one thing..
>
> I say its time for a Flash browser.
> No more installing plugins,
> no more yellow line around your swf,
> and no more relying on another browser to run flash.
>
> Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to another level
> and another market.
> All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple  
> platforms.
> You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with
> iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..
>
> like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app
>
> Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake and eat
> it too,
> you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont be anything
> anyone can do.
> Oh, well, except catch up.. :)
>
> +1 Flash for ever!
>
> Karl DeSaulniers
> Design Drumm
> http://designdrumm.com
>
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> ___
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> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Kerry Thompson]

I noticed something interesting, and perhaps relevant, a couple of
days ago. Google  Docs and Google Apps is going to stop supporting
older Browsers, like IE 6, on March 1. I understand the move is to
promote HTML5.

I don't believe Flash is going away soon either. There are too many
sites out there that use Flash, including the one I'm working on,
. We're basically a big Flash site, supported by
the usual HTML, JavaScript, PHP, and the like.

I think somebody else mentioned the fact that Disney uses Flash
extensively (they do). It would be prohibitively expensive to redo all
their apps in another language.

I'm not retiring for another 5-6 years, and I expect to be a Flash
programmer for the rest of my career.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Dave Watts]

> Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE, but it has flash
> and all its capabilities already in it.
> No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.

I don't see how that would improve anything - instead of people
installing plugins in browsers they already have, they'd have to
install a new browser.

> Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it still
> have to be installed to work with a browser?

The AIR runtime itself needs to be installed, and your AIR apps need
to be installed on top of that. But once they're installed, you don't
need a browser. It includes Webkit, which is the engine powering
Chrome and Safari.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Bob Wohl]

>Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it still have 
>to be installed to work with a browser?

wording should be "installed to work *AS* a browser."



On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Karl DeSaulniers  wrote:
> Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE, but it has flash
> and all its capabilities already in it.
> No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.
>
> Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it still
> have to be installed to work with a browser?
>
> Karl
>
>
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:
>
>>>> I say its time for a Flash browser.
>>
>> I thought that was called AIR. :)
>>
>>
>> Jason Merrill
>>
>> Bank of  America  Global Learning
>> Learning & Performance Soluions
>>
>> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
>> Instructional Technology Design Blog
>> (note: these are for Bank of America employees only)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
>> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl
>> DeSaulniers
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
>> To: Flash Coders List
>> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
>>
>> Hello,
>> I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but I have to
>> say one thing..
>>
>> I say its time for a Flash browser.
>> No more installing plugins,
>> no more yellow line around your swf,
>> and no more relying on another browser to run flash.
>>
>> Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to another level
>> and another market.
>> All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple platforms.
>> You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with
>> iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..
>>
>> like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app
>>
>> Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake and eat
>> it too,
>> you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont be anything
>> anyone can do.
>> Oh, well, except catch up.. :)
>>
>> +1 Flash for ever!
>>
>> Karl DeSaulniers
>> Design Drumm
>> http://designdrumm.com
>>
>> ___
>> Flashcoders mailing list
>> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
>> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>> ___
>> Flashcoders mailing list
>> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
>> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
> Karl DeSaulniers
> Design Drumm
> http://designdrumm.com
>
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Well yeah, but I mean an app like Safari or FireFox or IE, but it has  
flash and all its capabilities already in it.

No need to install flash, because its a flash browser.

Forgive me if I am unaware of what air actually is, but doesn't it  
still have to be installed to work with a browser?


Karl


On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote:


I say its time for a Flash browser.


I thought that was called AIR. :)


Jason Merrill

Bank of  America  Global Learning
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl
DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Hello,
I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but I have to
say one thing..

I say its time for a Flash browser.
No more installing plugins,
no more yellow line around your swf,
and no more relying on another browser to run flash.

Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to another level
and another market.
All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple  
platforms.

You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with
iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..

like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app

Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake and eat
it too,
you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont be anything
anyone can do.
Oh, well, except catch up.. :)

+1 Flash for ever!

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Andrew Murphy]

It may be helpful to discuss with clients something that we should always be
doing when developing Flash web apps anyway; alternative content.  And I
mean giving the non-Flash user something more than just a link to download
the Flash plugin.

To respond to client concerns and provide a great user experience I think
we'll be devoting more time and budget to building a non-Flash alternative,
using whatever technology is appropriate, that provides a similar user
experience to what we build in the Flash.  Which of course will raise the
question, "Why create a Flash version in the first place?"  I think the
answer to that will continue to be the reasons we've been using it all
along:

- gorgeous timeline based and programatic animation
- video & audio, these won't be going away just because you can do it
another way.. and when you can integrate video & audio with Flash's other
capabilities, there's nothing else that can compete right now
- a rich API that provides powerful integration with the web and desktop,
which also makes it adaptable to whatever need the client wakes up with
tomorrow
- you can create a seamless exerience regardless of your target software and
hardware platform (except for a few *ahem* exceptions).
- a massive user share that I expect will continue to grow when v10.1 drops
- a similarly massive developer base, including many open-source projects
providing even more depth to the API
- integration with Adobe's other products, and I don't believe that any of
those will be dropping out of the market any time soon.


In short, I think that developing richer alternate content (black & white)
could be that little bit of shugar that helps a fearful client swallow the
big Flash pill (kodachrome). :)



(ps:  Yes, I know I spell 'shugar' incorrectly.)


--
Andrew Murphy
Interactive Media Developer
amur...@delvinia.com

Delvinia
370 King Street West, 5th Floor, Box 4 
Toronto Canada M5V 1J9
P (416) 364-1455 ext. 232
F (416) 364-9830  
W www.delvinia.com



 

> -Original Message-
> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
> [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of artur
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: flashcoders
> Subject: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> 
> from my client ( an established design agency in NYC ):
> 
> artur,
> 
> I've been doing a lot of research and polling of colleagues.
> 
> *Here's my takeaway:*
> 
> - no one knows what's going on
> - flash developers I've spoken to all are saying it's no big deal,
> proceed with flash
> - all designers are making an abrupt shift away from 
> flash, steering
> their clients as a result
> - clients are questioning flash even without prompting
> - media has called for the death of it
> 
> I think the answer is that Flash will need to change 
> ASAP, or else I
> can't recommend it without looking like an ignoramus to clients.
> That sucks, because I love Flash, but it's not where the 
> momentum is
> moving.
> 
> People still look at it as non SEO friendly.
> 
> 
> they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - 
> powered by WPress or Joomla/Drupal.
> 
> any articles , facts, that i can point them to that may 
> change their minds?
> 
> thanks
> 
> artur
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Mattheis, Erik (MIN - WSW)]

Echoing Chris from earlier, I hope nobody here feels compelled to argue for 
Flash when it's not the best fit for a project.

As far as a stock response to an objection to Flash, perhaps a question "What 
features do you want the product to have and where and for who do you need it 
to run?" Based on the answer you can confidently say Flash is the only 
reasonable technology or not.

For the foreseeable future, HTML5 is NOT going to be the best technology for 
the most web apps --- most will need to run in a variety of web browsers, so 
Flash or HTML/CSS/JavaScript - iPhones and iPads notwithstanding.

_ _ _
Erik Mattheis
Senior Web Developer
Minneapolis
T  952 346 6610
C 612 377 2272

Weber Shandwick
Advocacy starts here.

PRWeek Global Agency Report Card 2009 - Gold Medal Winner
The Holmes Report Global Agency of the Year
PR News Agency of the Year


-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Boerner, Brian J
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 1:49 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Everyone move to Hollywood! ;^)

Does anyone on this list have a decent stock response we could all use? I don't.

Let's be realistic. Coming up with rationale for using Flash as development 
platform is tougher than it used to be by far... 


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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Merrill, Jason]

>> I say its time for a Flash browser.

I thought that was called AIR. :) 


Jason Merrill 

Bank of  America  Global Learning 
Learning & Performance Soluions

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community  and visit our
Instructional Technology Design Blog
(note: these are for Bank of America employees only)






-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl
DeSaulniers
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:03 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

Hello,
I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but I have to  
say one thing..

I say its time for a Flash browser.
No more installing plugins,
no more yellow line around your swf,
and no more relying on another browser to run flash.

Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to another level  
and another market.
All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple platforms.
You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with  
iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..

like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app

Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake and eat  
it too,
you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont be anything  
anyone can do.
Oh, well, except catch up.. :)

+1 Flash for ever!

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Hello,
I usually sit back and let the experts chum these out, but I have to  
say one thing..


I say its time for a Flash browser.
No more installing plugins,
no more yellow line around your swf,
and no more relying on another browser to run flash.

Just create a flash based browser and you take flash to another level  
and another market.

All you have to worry about is creating it to run on multiple platforms.
You can create your own security on the browser to coincide with  
iPods, iPads, iPlops whatever..


like combining air + flashplayer as a OS app

Once users/clients figure out that they can have their cake and eat  
it too,
you'll have them coming by the hordes and there wont be anything  
anyone can do.

Oh, well, except catch up.. :)

+1 Flash for ever!

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Jer Brand]

Lurker chiming in (I'm talkative today...)

In the end, I believe this will completely blow over, with very little
change. Yeah, for the next few months some panic-prone clients are
going to look for other solutions besides Flash. So long as you aren't
positioned in the market as only a "Flash Developer" rather than a web
developer, those same clients will still be coming to you for
solutions.

Stick to offering solutions and coming up with the best solution to
their needs. Most clients don't give a damn how you pull it off so
long as it's cost effective. Those demanding non-flash will come to
you to pull off some animation magic, and you'll politely explain that
what they want is only possible in Flash and they may need to scale
back their vision if they would like to avoid using that technology.

You might have to keep it in the back of your mind when pitching a
project that the client may object to the use of Flash. So have a
backup plan sans flash. They may end up changing their mind once they
realize what they're losing.

Adobe's got the right response here, which is to say nothing. Jobs can
spout and sputter but just because he says something doesn't make it
real -- despite what a few die-hards believe. Trying to refute his
speeches and insults at best would make Adobe look petty and
defensive, and a villain to those who believe Jobs walks on water.
What they can do is keep innovating and moving the platform forward.

See what happens when you draw out the lurkers -- we can't shut
ourselves up... ;-)

Jer
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Boerner, Brian J]

Everyone move to Hollywood! ;^)

Does anyone on this list have a decent stock response we could all use? I don't.

Let's be realistic. Coming up with rationale for using Flash as development 
platform is tougher than it used to be by far... I guess gaming is safe to 
decent extent... Does anyone here not think Adobe has gotten fat or at least 
overweight and lazy? They just had to know they weren't in great position to 
get plug-in for iPhone... so why as of yet have they not come out with a 
blow-the-doors-down release for all other platforms? Where's the 'strategy'? 

I guess they're too busy worrying about how to suck some more cash out of next 
version of photoshop... I really can't tell. As someone who likes Flash I'm 
stranded because it doesn't quite 'fit' the times anymore. To make things worse 
the heat from non-flash folks is white-hot. So much so that even perfect flash 
execution will take a beat-down for various reasons.

Adobe's response to Jobs was weak at best - certainly doesn't come across as 
confident they will win 'the market'. I'd give them a (generous) grade of 
"C"... I wonder if Macromedia would've been in front of this years ago!

If you were the Flash Product Manager what would you do now? You can't just 
stand there taking punches right?





-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Carl Welch
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:44 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

This scenario is exactly what I was worried would start happening. I'm
glad I live near Hollywood. They love Flash.

-- 
Carl Welch
http://www.carlwelch.com

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Matt S.  wrote:
> Whatever we might think of this agency or their opinions, we need to
> recognize that this is probably what the next year of our lives is
> going to look like, and I guarantee you you'll be hearing it from
> "respectable" agencies as well. Flash just took a shotgun blast to the
> stomach thanks to Steve Jobs and clients have no idea how to react or
> who to trust, so they're going to take the easy route and run with the
> herd, which in this case just turned tail and ran away from Flash. And
> it doesnt help when you have non-Flash developers who are only too
> eager to jump in and help dig the grave, or whisper in the ear of
> their bosses to ditch Flash already.
>
> .m
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Christian Pugliese  
> wrote:
>> sorry to say, but not a respectable agency in that case, not even aware of
>> what's really going on.
>>
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Christian Pugliese]

Btw, ABC.com is streaming Lost Final Season online in Flash, I wonder, in
case he haven't seen yesterday, if Steve Jobs will watch it online in Flash,
or will he just go illegal and download via torrent? what about those agency
guys as well? (just kidding)




On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 16:10, David Hunter  wrote:

>
> it will be interesting to see what happens.
> this post on the topic of html5 vs flash is well balanced and
> non-inflammatory:
> http://richardleggett.co.uk/blog/index.php/2010/02/01/the-world-is-moving-to-html5
> this post from someone at photoshop might cheer everyone up:
> http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01/sympathy_for_the_devil.html
> there are heaps of other articles i've seen but these are two good recent
> ones.
> david
> > Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:55:14 -0300
> > From: ar...@artur.com
> > To: flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > Subject: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> >
> > from my client ( an established design agency in NYC ):
> >
> > artur,
> >
> > I've been doing a lot of research and polling of colleagues.
> >
> > *Here's my takeaway:*
> >
> > - no one knows what's going on
> > - flash developers I've spoken to all are saying it's no big deal,
> > proceed with flash
> > - all designers are making an abrupt shift away from flash, steering
> > their clients as a result
> > - clients are questioning flash even without prompting
> > - media has called for the death of it
> >
> > I think the answer is that Flash will need to change ASAP, or else I
> > can't recommend it without looking like an ignoramus to clients.
> > That sucks, because I love Flash, but it's not where the momentum is
> > moving.
> >
> > People still look at it as non SEO friendly.
> >
> >
> > they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - powered by
> > WPress or Joomla/Drupal.
> >
> > any articles , facts, that i can point them to that may change their
> minds?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > artur
> > ___
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> > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
> _
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[David Hunter]

it will be interesting to see what happens.
this post on the topic of html5 vs flash is well balanced and 
non-inflammatory:http://richardleggett.co.uk/blog/index.php/2010/02/01/the-world-is-moving-to-html5
this post from someone at photoshop might cheer everyone 
up:http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01/sympathy_for_the_devil.html
there are heaps of other articles i've seen but these are two good recent ones.
david
> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:55:14 -0300
> From: ar...@artur.com
> To: flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> Subject: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash
> 
> from my client ( an established design agency in NYC ):
> 
> artur,
> 
> I've been doing a lot of research and polling of colleagues.
> 
> *Here's my takeaway:*
> 
> - no one knows what's going on
> - flash developers I've spoken to all are saying it's no big deal,
> proceed with flash
> - all designers are making an abrupt shift away from flash, steering
> their clients as a result
> - clients are questioning flash even without prompting
> - media has called for the death of it
> 
> I think the answer is that Flash will need to change ASAP, or else I
> can't recommend it without looking like an ignoramus to clients.
> That sucks, because I love Flash, but it's not where the momentum is
> moving.
> 
> People still look at it as non SEO friendly.
> 
> 
> they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - powered by 
> WPress or Joomla/Drupal.
> 
> any articles , facts, that i can point them to that may change their minds?
> 
> thanks
> 
> artur
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Gregory Boland]

with any luck they will succeed in getting flash player 10.1 on all future
cellphones using the ARM chip and will bring the ability to have apps on
many cellphones not called iphone

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Mendelsohn, Michael <
michael.mendels...@fmglobal.com> wrote:

> > adobe i hope your going to pack some punches.
>
> They better, and I'm fairly confident they will react appropriately.  Apple
> doesn't have a monopoly on anything.
>
> - MM
>
>
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Christian Pugliese]

I second Soren...

Good designers and developers must choose what fits best each website, and
that should have been done by a long time, now things are just going to get
more serious. Flash wont die, not in a near future, html5 badly supports
video tag, there are browser compatibility stuff, there are interactive, etc
etc... Flash people and Adobe just need to learn how to argue better, and
this had happen before.

Chris.



On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 15:46, Soeren.Meyer-Eppler <
soeren.meyer-epp...@buschnick.net> wrote:

> > People still look at it as non SEO friendly.
> >
> > they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - powered by
> > WPress or Joomla/Drupal.
>
> I think for the type of site where html/css/jquery is enough to
> implement it Flash is indeed a bad choice. What should be it's value
> proposition in those cases? At best it won't get into the way. At worst
> it'll increase load times, worsen SEO, break browser navigation, won't
> allow proper page links, won't honour browser color settings, won't
> degrade well, won't allow my adblockers etc... In my personal experience
> I have seen far more bad flash sites than usable ones. Granted, we are
> finally past the "skip intro" infant stage, but there is still a lot of
> garbage out there.
>
> Now don't get me wrong, I think flash fills a very important niche for
> developing highly interactive, dynamic and media rich browser
> applications. No other tool even comes close in the domains flash really
> shines - but please don't think it's the right platform for every website.
>
> best regards,
>
>Sören
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RE: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Mendelsohn, Michael]

> adobe i hope your going to pack some punches.

They better, and I'm fairly confident they will react appropriately.  Apple 
doesn't have a monopoly on anything.
 
- MM


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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[artur]

folks, this is a wake up call.
yes, larger agencies with an in-house internet dev dept. will be in the 
know.


but for the rest of the world..when the word on the street is : flash = 
stay away.

that hits my bottom line.

i need to counter. fast.
adobe i hope your going to pack some punches.


-a


On 2/3/2010 2:09 PM, Christian Pugliese wrote:
sorry to say, but not a respectable agency in that case, not even 
aware of what's really going on.




On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 14:55, artur > wrote:


from my client ( an established design agency in NYC ):

  artur,

  I've been doing a lot of research and polling of colleagues.

  *Here's my takeaway:*

  - no one knows what's going on
  - flash developers I've spoken to all are saying it's no big deal,
  proceed with flash
  - all designers are making an abrupt shift away from flash, steering
  their clients as a result
  - clients are questioning flash even without prompting
  - media has called for the death of it

  I think the answer is that Flash will need to change ASAP, or else I
  can't recommend it without looking like an ignoramus to clients.
  That sucks, because I love Flash, but it's not where the momentum is
  moving.

  People still look at it as non SEO friendly.


they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - powered
by WPress or Joomla/Drupal.

any articles , facts, that i can point them to that may change
their minds?

thanks

artur
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Soeren.Meyer-Eppler]

> People still look at it as non SEO friendly.
> 
> they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - powered by
> WPress or Joomla/Drupal.

I think for the type of site where html/css/jquery is enough to
implement it Flash is indeed a bad choice. What should be it's value
proposition in those cases? At best it won't get into the way. At worst
it'll increase load times, worsen SEO, break browser navigation, won't
allow proper page links, won't honour browser color settings, won't
degrade well, won't allow my adblockers etc... In my personal experience
I have seen far more bad flash sites than usable ones. Granted, we are
finally past the "skip intro" infant stage, but there is still a lot of
garbage out there.

Now don't get me wrong, I think flash fills a very important niche for
developing highly interactive, dynamic and media rich browser
applications. No other tool even comes close in the domains flash really
shines - but please don't think it's the right platform for every website.

best regards,

Sören
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Carl Welch]

This scenario is exactly what I was worried would start happening. I'm
glad I live near Hollywood. They love Flash.

-- 
Carl Welch
http://www.carlwelch.com

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Matt S.  wrote:
> Whatever we might think of this agency or their opinions, we need to
> recognize that this is probably what the next year of our lives is
> going to look like, and I guarantee you you'll be hearing it from
> "respectable" agencies as well. Flash just took a shotgun blast to the
> stomach thanks to Steve Jobs and clients have no idea how to react or
> who to trust, so they're going to take the easy route and run with the
> herd, which in this case just turned tail and ran away from Flash. And
> it doesnt help when you have non-Flash developers who are only too
> eager to jump in and help dig the grave, or whisper in the ear of
> their bosses to ditch Flash already.
>
> .m
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Christian Pugliese  
> wrote:
>> sorry to say, but not a respectable agency in that case, not even aware of
>> what's really going on.
>>
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Bob Wohl]

LMFAO! That's awesome Glen.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Glen Pike  wrote:
> Don't tell me - all the designers use Mac's and look like this guy.
>
> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/7/12/
>
>
>>
>
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Matt S.]

Whatever we might think of this agency or their opinions, we need to
recognize that this is probably what the next year of our lives is
going to look like, and I guarantee you you'll be hearing it from
"respectable" agencies as well. Flash just took a shotgun blast to the
stomach thanks to Steve Jobs and clients have no idea how to react or
who to trust, so they're going to take the easy route and run with the
herd, which in this case just turned tail and ran away from Flash. And
it doesnt help when you have non-Flash developers who are only too
eager to jump in and help dig the grave, or whisper in the ear of
their bosses to ditch Flash already.

.m

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Christian Pugliese  wrote:
> sorry to say, but not a respectable agency in that case, not even aware of
> what's really going on.
>
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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Glen Pike]

Don't tell me - all the designers use Mac's and look like this guy.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/7/12/






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Re: [Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[Christian Pugliese]

sorry to say, but not a respectable agency in that case, not even aware of
what's really going on.



On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 14:55, artur  wrote:

> from my client ( an established design agency in NYC ):
>
>   artur,
>
>   I've been doing a lot of research and polling of colleagues.
>
>   *Here's my takeaway:*
>
>   - no one knows what's going on
>   - flash developers I've spoken to all are saying it's no big deal,
>   proceed with flash
>   - all designers are making an abrupt shift away from flash, steering
>   their clients as a result
>   - clients are questioning flash even without prompting
>   - media has called for the death of it
>
>   I think the answer is that Flash will need to change ASAP, or else I
>   can't recommend it without looking like an ignoramus to clients.
>   That sucks, because I love Flash, but it's not where the momentum is
>   moving.
>
>   People still look at it as non SEO friendly.
>
>
> they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - powered by WPress
> or Joomla/Drupal.
>
> any articles , facts, that i can point them to that may change their minds?
>
> thanks
>
> artur
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[Flashcoders] and now..CLIENT now hates Flash

[artur]

from my client ( an established design agency in NYC ):

   artur,

   I've been doing a lot of research and polling of colleagues.

   *Here's my takeaway:*

   - no one knows what's going on
   - flash developers I've spoken to all are saying it's no big deal,
   proceed with flash
   - all designers are making an abrupt shift away from flash, steering
   their clients as a result
   - clients are questioning flash even without prompting
   - media has called for the death of it

   I think the answer is that Flash will need to change ASAP, or else I
   can't recommend it without looking like an ignoramus to clients.
   That sucks, because I love Flash, but it's not where the momentum is
   moving.

   People still look at it as non SEO friendly.


they now want to do all future sites in html/css/jquery - powered by 
WPress or Joomla/Drupal.


any articles , facts, that i can point them to that may change their minds?

thanks

artur
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