RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Your talking about Pop super stardom. A mere mention on MTV, mainstream magazines you see at your local 7-11 convenient store like Rolling Stone is pretty significant. This means people like Derrick May have established a legacy, a name for themselves in the music industry's eye. They've already been recognized by the city of Detroit and made front page headlines with the festival. Not to mention dance music is pretty mainsteme in America, take a look at the dance section at your local Virgin megastore or HMV. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh - ok, you're talking about being *mentioned* in some mainstream press (if being on a magazine rack equates mainstream then so is High Times and Juxtapose) - this is different that being recognized. MTV - when Carl Craig walks onto TRL and the crowd outside hold up signs saying I (heart) C2!!! then I will agree with you. There might be highlights but you never see a video, you never hear an interview, evidently they aren't buzzworthy, and I'm waiting for the day that one of their talking heads of the month comes on and declares We're here live at the Movement '05 music festival in downtown Detroit city for the next three days! instead of repeating MTV's Spring Break in Cancun '98 for the third time that week. as for the popular music thing with Amazon/CD Now - that's just to say he isn't making Classical music. They only have two general classifications at the highest level - Classical music and Popular music. You'll also find stuff like Jean Ritchie, Oumou Sangare, and Opiate in the Popular music even though you'd be hard pressed to find them being recognized within the mainstream. All said and done - you might see their names pop up but until you *hear* their music on the radio or *see* a video on MTV - they aren't being recognized because it is the music, their art, that they produce that is important. Until the day they stop paying lip service saying oh yeah - he's techno pioneer and we respect that but never play his music (or any other under represented techno/house/etc. innovator) then he/she isn't being recognized. MEK spw [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313@hyperreal.org gy.net cc: Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw 06/23/03 03:09 PM was going on about) I think he has, artist like Jay-Z and Herbbie Hancock are well aware of who Derrick May is, I think Carl Craig is more popular though. Someone told they saw highlights of the DEMF on MTV which is about as mainstream as it gets. Carl Craig has been featured in mainstream American magazines like Rolling Stone on numerous occasions, Wasnt it you that mentioned them making the cover of Urb? Urb is on a lot of Magazine racks. Speaking of Rolling Stone I rember reading an article (or was it Spin?) about Kraftwerk when they went on tour back in the late 90's it had all the bands Kraftwerk had influenced and Carl Craig was up there with the likes of Devo. These guys are not hitting the Billboard Top 40 but that doesn't mean they are not getting recognition for their accomplishments by the music industry. If you still have any doubts look what's classifdied under Popular Music on the CDNOW: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-7582885-0525427 Innovator -- Derrick May; Audio CD Editorial Reviews Amazon.com Thanks to legendary singles like Strings of Life and Nude Photo, Derrick May is universally regarded as the definitive techno producer; by hijacking the rhythmic sensibilities of house and adding the intelligence of European electronica and the spirit of Motown, he single-handedly defined and articulated the sound of Detroit. But despite (or perhaps because of) his status as a legend, nary a bleep had emerged from his studio since 1990 before the release of Innovator, a collection of his past work. This double CD contains the aforementioned Strings and Nude Photo singles as well as other classics like It Is What It Is, Salsa Life, and The Beginning, all of which have been available only in vinyl form on May's own Transmat label. Until he reemerges from a self-imposed musical hiatus, your course in the spirit of Detroit begins and ends here. --Matthew Corwine Customers who bought this
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
the term soul had a resergance in trend with the music industry starting around the mid to late 90's Soul is only a figment of the hu-man imagination which can not be scientifically proven, a primitive concept based in tradition. Ignoring for a second statements from the artists about how the landscape of Detroit impacted their soundscape, LISTEN to the music. Do you hear horror or contextual poverty in STRINGS OF LIFE? In NUDE PHOTO? In TRIANGLE OF LOVE? There is undoubtedly some darkness in these and other songs. But that isn't all there is. Just as techno is solely a reaction to a limited vision of what Detroit is, soul (and the blues) isn't simply a reaction to subjugation. I don't think we'd be listening to this stuff if it were. I hear simple tracks composed on drum machines and synthesizers, 4/4 16- step sequences. Derrick May isn't exactly Van Cliburn competition material if you know what I mean in fact Stings Of Life was more like good production/ editing skills but I'm glad to see him establish a name for himself in the mainstreme music community as the techno pioneer and reeping the awards of good marketing and PR skills. This nonsense about Detroit techno a way of escaping the economic, Industrial waste land of Detroit or the ghetto is complete nonsense. I'm sure maybe on a subconscience level. What was going on in Chicago with house and technology with drum machines, midi sequencers that Juan Atkins was into was more of a factor influencing the first techno coming out of Detroit. =
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 16:34:39 -0700 (PDT), spw [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: the term soul had a resergance in trend with the music industry starting around the mid to late 90's Soul is only a figment of the hu-man imagination which can not be scientifically proven, a primitive concept based in tradition. I must pick up my latest copy of Muzik or MixMag so I can catch up with the latest trends. I didn't realise 'soul' wasn't trendy again until 1996. You can now imagine the despair that I face when I see my 'friends' next, now that I know I just wasn't cool in 1995. Oh the humanity! -- Benn Glazier [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.royaltech.net
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
-- Original Message -- From: spw [EMAIL PROTECTED] Soul is only a figment of the hu-man imagination which can not be scientifically proven, a primitive concept based in tradition. i bet if you try REALLY REALLY HARD, you could say something even more stupid than this. id tell you to soul search to really get into it, but that would be futile. I hear simple tracks composed on drum machines and synthesizers, 4/4 16- step sequences. Derrick May isn't exactly Van Cliburn competition material if you know what I mean in fact Stings Of Life was more like good production/ editing skills but I'm glad to see him establish a name for himself in the mainstreme music community as the techno pioneer and reeping the awards of good marketing and PR skills. This nonsense about Detroit techno a way of escaping the economic, Industrial waste land of Detroit or the ghetto is complete nonsense. I'm sure maybe on a subconscience level. What was going on in Chicago with house and technology with drum machines, midi sequencers that Juan Atkins was into was more of a factor influencing the first techno coming out of Detroit. this bit was good too, but not nearly as dumb as the hu-man imagination bit. try again. tom andythepooh.com
Re: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
On 6/22/03 7:34 PM, spw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Soul is only a figment of the hu-man imagination which can not be scientifically proven, a primitive concept based in tradition. And so it becomes clear. You ARE channeling the spirit of Criswell from Plan 9 from Outer Space. You see -- your stupid hu-man brains! Stupid, stupid, stupid! -- Im We are all interested in the future, for that, my friend, is where you and I will spend the rest of our lives.
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
I hear simple tracks composed on drum machines and synthesizers, 4/4 16- step sequences. Derrick May isn't exactly Van Cliburn competition material if you know what I mean in fact Stings Of Life was more like good production/ editing skills but I'm glad to see him establish a name for himself in the mainstreme music community as the techno pioneer and reeping the awards of good marketing and PR skills. Uh, he's established a name for himself in the mainstream music community? Really? That's interesting because last time I checked very few people even know what the Movement festival or even the DEMF is, let alone songs like Nude Photo, Beyond the Dance, Stings of Life, or The Dance. Pop his name into MTV's search and in the news archives you get one item that comes up - and that item is - BLANK. There isn't anything there on him. There is one review of Innovator and a bio. The other CD they list is a compilation that includes other artists like - Propellerheads, The Crystal Method, Atomic Babies, Headrillaz, Electric Skychurch, BT, Rabbit in the Moon, Fatboy Slim, etc. Plus Derrick isn't even mentioned in the review! All this despite pulling off one of the nation's largest electronic festivals without any financial backing and managing to bring the spirit, dare I say soul, back to the festival. The reason I use MTV as a thermometer is because *that is the mainstream music community*. If you think Derrick May is being recognized by the mainstream music community then you are seriously fooling yourself. Now back to our regularly featured program featuring the White Stripes and Justin Timberlake. MEK spw [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313@hyperreal.org gy.net cc: Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw 06/22/03 06:34 PM was going on about) the term soul had a resergance in trend with the music industry starting around the mid to late 90's Soul is only a figment of the hu-man imagination which can not be scientifically proven, a primitive concept based in tradition. Ignoring for a second statements from the artists about how the landscape of Detroit impacted their soundscape, LISTEN to the music. Do you hear horror or contextual poverty in STRINGS OF LIFE? In NUDE PHOTO? In TRIANGLE OF LOVE? There is undoubtedly some darkness in these and other songs. But that isn't all there is. Just as techno is solely a reaction to a limited vision of what Detroit is, soul (and the blues) isn't simply a reaction to subjugation. I don't think we'd be listening to this stuff if it were. I hear simple tracks composed on drum machines and synthesizers, 4/4 16- step sequences. Derrick May isn't exactly Van Cliburn competition material if you know what I mean in fact Stings Of Life was more like good production/ editing skills but I'm glad to see him establish a name for himself in the mainstreme music community as the techno pioneer and reeping the awards of good marketing and PR skills. This nonsense about Detroit techno a way of escaping the economic, Industrial waste land of Detroit or the ghetto is complete nonsense. I'm sure maybe on a subconscience level. What was going on in Chicago with house and technology with drum machines, midi sequencers that Juan Atkins was into was more of a factor influencing the first techno coming out of Detroit. =
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Trivial point I know but: Stings of Life spw ?!?! I guess it would be an appropriate title given those infamous sampled string stabs, which even my younger sister remembers, although she doesn't know where from ... Or maybe spw's spelling is just as poor as his reasoning ooh - something tells me some more stings of life will be heading in my direction shortly ;-) k -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:26 PM To: spw Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) I hear simple tracks composed on drum machines and synthesizers, 4/4 16- step sequences. Derrick May isn't exactly Van Cliburn competition material if you know what I mean in fact Stings Of Life was more like good production/ editing skills but I'm glad to see him establish a name for himself in the mainstreme music community as the techno pioneer and reeping the awards of good marketing and PR skills. Uh, he's established a name for himself in the mainstream music community? Really? That's interesting because last time I checked very few people even know what the Movement festival or even the DEMF is, let alone songs like Nude Photo, Beyond the Dance, Stings of Life, or The Dance. Pop his name into MTV's search and in the news archives you get one item that comes up - and that item is - BLANK. There isn't anything there on him. There is one review of Innovator and a bio. The other CD they list is a compilation that includes other artists like - Propellerheads, The Crystal Method, Atomic Babies, Headrillaz, Electric Skychurch, BT, Rabbit in the Moon, Fatboy Slim, etc. Plus Derrick isn't even mentioned in the review! All this despite pulling off one of the nation's largest electronic festivals without any financial backing and managing to bring the spirit, dare I say soul, back to the festival. The reason I use MTV as a thermometer is because *that is the mainstream music community*. If you think Derrick May is being recognized by the mainstream music community then you are seriously fooling yourself. Now back to our regularly featured program featuring the White Stripes and Justin Timberlake. MEK spw [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313@hyperreal.org gy.net cc: Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw 06/22/03 06:34 PM was going on about) the term soul had a resergance in trend with the music industry starting around the mid to late 90's Soul is only a figment of the hu-man imagination which can not be scientifically proven, a primitive concept based in tradition. Ignoring for a second statements from the artists about how the landscape of Detroit impacted their soundscape, LISTEN to the music. Do you hear horror or contextual poverty in STRINGS OF LIFE? In NUDE PHOTO? In TRIANGLE OF LOVE? There is undoubtedly some darkness in these and other songs. But that isn't all there is. Just as techno is solely a reaction to a limited vision of what Detroit is, soul (and the blues) isn't simply a reaction to subjugation. I don't think we'd be listening to this stuff if it were. I hear simple tracks composed on drum machines and synthesizers, 4/4 16- step sequences. Derrick May isn't exactly Van Cliburn competition material if you know what I mean in fact Stings Of Life was more like good production/ editing skills but I'm glad to see him establish a name for himself in the mainstreme music community as the techno pioneer and reeping the awards of good marketing and PR skills. This nonsense about Detroit techno a way of escaping the economic, Industrial waste land of Detroit or the ghetto is complete nonsense. I'm sure maybe on a subconscience level. What was going on in Chicago with house and technology with drum machines, midi sequencers that Juan Atkins was into was more of a factor influencing the first techno coming out of Detroit. =
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
It's not only with dance music culture but with more mainstream music like rock, country (artist going back to blue grass, folk music roots) genres like neo-soul (coke classic commercials)electronica Pop artsit like Moby. Pick up and read magazines like Rolling Stone, Vibe, I'm sure youll have no problem spotting the word soul which is a common place cliche these days. Eddie Flashin' Fowlkes get's credit for using the term first with techno way before it became common place and trendy with dance music culture. He even had the concept of soulful house and tech-house down incoporating more sample happy/ natural sounding beats. --- Benn Glazier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I must pick up my latest copy of Muzik or MixMag so I can catch up with the latest trends. I didn't realise 'soul' wasn't trendy again until 1996. You can now imagine the despair that I face when I see my 'friends' next, now that I know I just wasn't cool in 1995. Oh the humanity! =
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
nonsense. On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, spw wrote: It's not only with dance music culture but with more mainstream music like rock, country (artist going back to blue grass, folk music roots) genres like neo-soul (coke classic commercials)electronica Pop artsit like Moby. Pick up and read magazines like Rolling Stone, Vibe, I'm sure youll have no problem spotting the word soul which is a common place cliche these days. Eddie Flashin' Fowlkes get's credit for using the term first with techno way before it became common place and trendy with dance music culture. He even had the concept of soulful house and tech-house down incoporating more sample happy/ natural sounding beats. --- Benn Glazier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I must pick up my latest copy of Muzik or MixMag so I can catch up with the latest trends. I didn't realise 'soul' wasn't trendy again until 1996. You can now imagine the despair that I face when I see my 'friends' next, now that I know I just wasn't cool in 1995. Oh the humanity! =
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
I think he has, artist like Jay-Z and Herbbie Hancock are well aware of who Derrick May is, I think Carl Craig is more popular though. Someone told they saw highlights of the DEMF on MTV which is about as mainstream as it gets. Carl Craig has been featured in mainstream American magazines like Rolling Stone on numerous occasions, Wasnt it you that mentioned them making the cover of Urb? Urb is on a lot of Magazine racks. Speaking of Rolling Stone I rember reading an article (or was it Spin?) about Kraftwerk when they went on tour back in the late 90's it had all the bands Kraftwerk had influenced and Carl Craig was up there with the likes of Devo. These guys are not hitting the Billboard Top 40 but that doesn't mean they are not getting recognition for their accomplishments by the music industry. If you still have any doubts look what's classifdied under Popular Music on the CDNOW: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-7582885-0525427 Innovator -- Derrick May; Audio CD Editorial Reviews Amazon.com Thanks to legendary singles like Strings of Life and Nude Photo, Derrick May is universally regarded as the definitive techno producer; by hijacking the rhythmic sensibilities of house and adding the intelligence of European electronica and the spirit of Motown, he single-handedly defined and articulated the sound of Detroit. But despite (or perhaps because of) his status as a legend, nary a bleep had emerged from his studio since 1990 before the release of Innovator, a collection of his past work. This double CD contains the aforementioned Strings and Nude Photo singles as well as other classics like It Is What It Is, Salsa Life, and The Beginning, all of which have been available only in vinyl form on May's own Transmat label. Until he reemerges from a self-imposed musical hiatus, your course in the spirit of Detroit begins and ends here. --Matthew Corwine Customers who bought this title also bought: * Faces Phases ~ Kevin Saunderson * Wax Trax! Mastermix, Vol. 1 ~ Juan Atkins * X-Mix: Transmission from Deep Space Radio ~ Kevin Saunderson * Classics [IMPORT] ~ Model 500 * Clear ~ Cybotron * A Hundred Days Off ~ Underworld * Selected Ambient Works, Vol. 2 ~ Aphex Twin * The Beatles (The White Album) ~ Beatles Explore Similar Items: 9 in Music Customers who shopped for this item also shopped for these items: * Mysterious Traveller ~ System 7, Derrick May * Deep Space ~ Model 500 * Vol. 1 - Club Classics 10th Anniversary ~ Soul II Soul * Dig Your Own Hole ~ The Chemical Brothers --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uh, he's established a name for himself in the mainstream music community? Really? That's interesting because last time I checked very few people even know what the Movement festival or even the DEMF is, let alone songs like Nude Photo, Beyond the Dance, Stings of Life, or The Dance. Pop his name into MTV's search and in the news archives you get one item that comes up - and that item is - BLANK. There isn't anything there on him. There is one review of Innovator and a bio. The other CD they list is a compilation that includes other artists like - Propellerheads, The Crystal Method, Atomic Babies, Headrillaz, Electric Skychurch, BT, Rabbit in the Moon, Fatboy Slim, etc. Plus Derrick isn't even mentioned in the review! All this despite pulling off one of the nation's largest electronic festivals without any financial backing and managing to bring the spirit, dare I say soul, back to the festival. The reason I use MTV as a thermometer is because *that is the mainstream music community*. If you think Derrick May is being recognized by the mainstream music community then you are seriously fooling yourself. Now back to our regularly featured program featuring the White Stripes and Justin Timberlake. MEK =
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
--- Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i bet if you try REALLY REALLY HARD, you could say something even more stupid than this. id tell you to soul search to really get into it, but that would be futile. No it isn't if you think about it and observe the evidence. There's a great documentary on PBS about animal behavior, they had one of the great chimpanzee researchers describe how she thinks the first first primitive religions came about with prehistoric man watching apes dance and jump around in awe of the rain. Just like how the first tools were invented form developing weapons and fighting in tribal warfare by prehistoric man. =
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
-- Original Message -- From: spw [EMAIL PROTECTED] No it isn't if you think about it and observe the evidence. There's a great documentary on PBS about animal behavior, they had one of the great chimpanzee researchers describe how she thinks the first first primitive religions came about with prehistoric man watching apes dance and jump around in awe of the rain. Just like how the first tools were invented form developing weapons and fighting in tribal warfare by prehistoric man. blahblahblahblahblah. what the hell are you talking about? and youre still a f*cking idiot. on CDnow/amazon.com all non-classical music is under the popular music section. i hope something heavy falls on you from a great height. tom andythepooh.com
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Oh - ok, you're talking about being *mentioned* in some mainstream press (if being on a magazine rack equates mainstream then so is High Times and Juxtapose) - this is different that being recognized. MTV - when Carl Craig walks onto TRL and the crowd outside hold up signs saying I (heart) C2!!! then I will agree with you. There might be highlights but you never see a video, you never hear an interview, evidently they aren't buzzworthy, and I'm waiting for the day that one of their talking heads of the month comes on and declares We're here live at the Movement '05 music festival in downtown Detroit city for the next three days! instead of repeating MTV's Spring Break in Cancun '98 for the third time that week. as for the popular music thing with Amazon/CD Now - that's just to say he isn't making Classical music. They only have two general classifications at the highest level - Classical music and Popular music. You'll also find stuff like Jean Ritchie, Oumou Sangare, and Opiate in the Popular music even though you'd be hard pressed to find them being recognized within the mainstream. All said and done - you might see their names pop up but until you *hear* their music on the radio or *see* a video on MTV - they aren't being recognized because it is the music, their art, that they produce that is important. Until the day they stop paying lip service saying oh yeah - he's techno pioneer and we respect that but never play his music (or any other under represented techno/house/etc. innovator) then he/she isn't being recognized. MEK spw [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313@hyperreal.org gy.net cc: Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw 06/23/03 03:09 PM was going on about) I think he has, artist like Jay-Z and Herbbie Hancock are well aware of who Derrick May is, I think Carl Craig is more popular though. Someone told they saw highlights of the DEMF on MTV which is about as mainstream as it gets. Carl Craig has been featured in mainstream American magazines like Rolling Stone on numerous occasions, Wasnt it you that mentioned them making the cover of Urb? Urb is on a lot of Magazine racks. Speaking of Rolling Stone I rember reading an article (or was it Spin?) about Kraftwerk when they went on tour back in the late 90's it had all the bands Kraftwerk had influenced and Carl Craig was up there with the likes of Devo. These guys are not hitting the Billboard Top 40 but that doesn't mean they are not getting recognition for their accomplishments by the music industry. If you still have any doubts look what's classifdied under Popular Music on the CDNOW: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-7582885-0525427 Innovator -- Derrick May; Audio CD Editorial Reviews Amazon.com Thanks to legendary singles like Strings of Life and Nude Photo, Derrick May is universally regarded as the definitive techno producer; by hijacking the rhythmic sensibilities of house and adding the intelligence of European electronica and the spirit of Motown, he single-handedly defined and articulated the sound of Detroit. But despite (or perhaps because of) his status as a legend, nary a bleep had emerged from his studio since 1990 before the release of Innovator, a collection of his past work. This double CD contains the aforementioned Strings and Nude Photo singles as well as other classics like It Is What It Is, Salsa Life, and The Beginning, all of which have been available only in vinyl form on May's own Transmat label. Until he reemerges from a self-imposed musical hiatus, your course in the spirit of Detroit begins and ends here. --Matthew Corwine Customers who bought this title also bought: *Faces Phases ~ Kevin Saunderson *Wax Trax! Mastermix, Vol. 1 ~ Juan Atkins *X-Mix: Transmission from Deep Space Radio ~ Kevin Saunderson *Classics [IMPORT] ~ Model 500 *Clear ~ Cybotron *A Hundred Days Off ~ Underworld *Selected Ambient Works, Vol. 2 ~ Aphex Twin *The Beatles (The White Album) ~ Beatles Explore Similar Items: 9 in Music Customers who shopped for this item also shopped for these items: *Mysterious Traveller ~ System 7, Derrick May *
Re: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
I think maybe what David was trying to say is there is a series of exchanges, a dialetic? I am sure no one here would dispute that African-Americans have been the driving force behind today's pop cultures. I think you guys are in agreement. There's just been a misunderstanding because of the medium of the Internet. Its discussions like this that really makes me hate techno and everyone that goes with it. |-Original Message- |From: Sylvia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: 18 June 2003 23:52 |To: David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going |on about) | | |because African-Americans have always borrowed from |the white European tradition, | |Borrowed ? say What ? Kind of comment can just come from a |perfect imbecile who is a waste of human flesh, and his only |use on this earth is to take up space, God knows why, thank |you very much for your brilliant comments, I much appreciated |meantime let me tell you that: | |The music was a product of the existing environment of the |time in which the musicians who created it lived.. social and |political striking periods of black people in America, have |always been accompanied with a new musical genre, as an |example Period of Soul is roughly defined as 1955 - 1970. It |very much parallels the Civil Rights movement. | |- African roots music 1619! brought to us Negro spirituals 1825-1850 |- Negro spiritual antique Gospel Music brought to us Gospel |music: 1890 then Rhythm and Blues as BLUES: early 1900s and |then Jazz: 1920 |- Gospel and RB brought to us Soul |- Jazz brought to us Funk | |I wonder how you can be daily, next, go alongside to people of |which you do not even know the life, the existence, the |history ...the roots! | |Take some teach on my web at |http://www.guerrillafunk.com/thoughts/doc1788.html | |And let me quote myself from an email that I sent to this same |list on March 6th 2002! | |Yeah, it is...but a lot of things used to be black people |music too. Although jazz was pioneered by black artists...who |is the most well known jazz musician today? Kenny G? (What |happened to Coltrane and Miles Davis?) Although blues music |was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well known |blues musician today? Stevie Ray Vaughn? (What happened to |Muddy Waters, Albert King and Robert Johnson? Even Robert |Cray?) |And although rock was pioneered by black artists...who is the |most well loved and respected rock group in the world? The |Beatles? (What happened to Little Richard , Chuck Berry, and |Bo Diddley?) Apathy. People didn't care, they didn't pay |attention to what was going on, they didn't take a |stand...they supported what was safe, common, |predictable, expected...just like Living Colour's record |company did with the cover of their first album...they didn't |and dont' challenge the presumed wisdom of the day...and so |much of this music (Black Music?) has died. They largely did |this because, they were comfortable and complacent in the |cultural resonance they were receiving from MI at the time - |and the fact that the music industry was successful in keeping |them pacified in this way. Same game today? They were content |with their Bread and Circuses... It's hard to say. .. | | ||-Original Message- ||From: David Powers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ||Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:31 PM ||To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; David Powers ||Cc: 313@hyperreal.org ||Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on ||about) || || ||Great post. I may have been misinformed, I was thinking |about it more ||in terms of the classifying of music by the record labels than the ||meaning of the music for the people who made it. Now I'm trying to ||remember which label it was that the record industry used, |maybe it was ||RB? || ||And actually, I have to admit that the concept of soul you are ||speaking about does not require any kind of metaphysics and |could be a ||very useful Idea. I come from a very conservative white Christian ||background where soul is used as an extremely repressive idea and ||justifies oppresion rather than encouraging people to seek |for a better ||life here on earth. So what is really interesting is that ||African-Americans took a notion from their oppresors and transformed ||it, took it down a life of flight so that it became a liberating ||concept. || ||And if you think about it in terms of music, this is really |interesting ||because African-Americans have always borrowed from the white |European ||tradition, but at the same time have often been successful at ||liberating these elements from their hierarchical origins and |set them ||in motion, into a continuous variation where the elements that are ||ripped from their foundation in an oppresive hierarchical Culture now ||enter into free play and communicate with all the other elements of
Re: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
What I am talking about is a tactic of cultural survival in the face of slavery, oppresion and genocide. This is not simply about an exchange fo cultural ideas, although exchanges do happen The problem faced by Africans of the diaspora was: what do we do when the master takes away our drums, our language, our religion, by force? The answer, as far as I see, is that they took what they had, even if it was part of the masters' culture, and transformed it in order to re-assert themselves collectively. We can't play our drums? Then we will take your instruments, and your songs, and we will transform them, add our own inflections, we will drum even more effectively through your music until it is not any more yours but ours again. We can't speak our own langauge? Then we will transform your language until it becomes our own, allowing us to expresse ourselves collectively even in a medium that is not our own, since what is our own has been stolen from us. We can't practice our religion? Then we will follow yours, but in such a way that everything that matters is still there, your saints will be taken on a journey to Africa, they will now function as our own gods once did, we will go to catholic church and at the same time we will preserve the traditions which we have always followed. It is not only a question of black and white, it is something faced by all kinds of oppresed people. BORROWING DOES NOT IMPLY LACK OF INGENUITY OR DEFICIENCY!!! Rather it implies a joyful pragmaticism that allows one to create no matter what circumstances one is faced with. It does not matter what material elements you begin with, it only matters whate creative use you make of what you have. Use the enemy's resources against them. So if you have 303 808 and 909, use that. If you have a laptop, use that. If you have a washboard and a harmonica, use that. Use your poverty as a strength, transform your disadvantages into advantages. Empower yourself. The techno philosophy of DIY as pioneered by the Detroit crew can be seen in this light as an extension of the creative strategy developed time and again by the Africans of the diaspora. dave -- Original Message - Subject: Re: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:52:39 +1000 From: Cyclone Wehner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313 Detroit 313@hyperreal.org I think maybe what David was trying to say is there is a series of exchanges, a dialetic? I am sure no one here would dispute that African-Americans have been the driving force behind today's pop cultures. I think you guys are in agreement. There's just been a misunderstanding because of the medium of the Internet. Its discussions like this that really makes me hate techno and everyone that goes with it. |-Original Message- |From: Sylvia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: 18 June 2003 23:52 |To: David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going |on about) | | |because African-Americans have always borrowed from |the white European tradition, | |Borrowed ? say What ? Kind of comment can just come from a |perfect imbecile who is a waste of human flesh, and his only |use on this earth is to take up space, God knows why, thank |you very much for your brilliant comments, I much appreciated |meantime let me tell you that: | |The music was a product of the existing environment of the |time in which the musicians who created it lived.. social and |political striking periods of black people in America, have |always been accompanied with a new musical genre, as an |example Period of Soul is roughly defined as 1955 - 1970. It |very much parallels the Civil Rights movement. | |- African roots music 1619! brought to us Negro spirituals 1825-1850 |- Negro spiritual antique Gospel Music brought to us Gospel |music: 1890 then Rhythm and Blues as BLUES: early 1900s and |then Jazz: 1920 |- Gospel and RB brought to us Soul |- Jazz brought to us Funk | |I wonder how you can be daily, next, go alongside to people of |which you do not even know the life, the existence, the |history ...the roots! | |Take some teach on my web at |http://www.guerrillafunk.com/thoughts/doc1788.html | |And let me quote myself from an email that I sent to this same |list on March 6th 2002! | |Yeah, it is...but a lot of things used to be black people |music too. Although jazz was pioneered by black artists...who |is the most well known jazz musician today? Kenny G? (What |happened to Coltrane and Miles Davis?) Although blues music |was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well known |blues musician today? Stevie Ray Vaughn? (What happened to |Muddy Waters, Albert King and Robert Johnson? Even Robert |Cray?) |And although rock was pioneered by black artists...who is the |most well loved and respected rock group in the world? The |Beatles? (What happened
Re: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
The problem faced by Africans of the diaspora was: what do we do when the master takes away our drums, our language, our religion, by force? The answer, as far as I see, is that they took what they had, even if it was part of the masters' culture, and transformed it in order to re-assert themselves collectively. We can't play our drums? Then we will take your instruments, and your songs, and we will transform them, add our own inflections, we will drum even more effectively through your music until it is not any more yours but ours again. blues and jazz. i had this cool classes up here when i was a music theory major. jazz and blues history. the professor had all these old field recordings from the early '20s son house, charle patton, loads of gospal vocal groups, and some jazz groups i forgot the names. he also had some african tribal drumming with chanting. but to get to my point here, there was this note i forget exacatly what its name was but i rememebr it was a raised 3rd. this note was in the traditional african tribal music. it was also in blues and jazz from the period as well as today
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Yeah, it is...but a lot of things used to be black people music too. Although jazz was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well known jazz musician today? Kenny G? (What happened to Coltrane and Miles Davis?) Um, they died. I would also suspect that these datys Winston Marsalis is more popular than Kenny G. Although blues music was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well known blues musician today? Stevie Ray Vaughn? (What happened to Muddy Waters, Albert King and Robert Johnson? Even Robert Cray?) Again, mostly dead. As for Cray, I gotta figure that Vaughn's fusion of rock and blues was more appealing than Cray's more basic straigh blues style. And although rock was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well loved and respected rock group in the world? The Beatles? (What happened to Little Richard , Chuck Berry, and Bo Diddley?) I gotta say the Beatles took the formula of Richard, Berry, Diddley and made a lot of innovations on it. Their songwriting was much more advanced and as for recording, instumentation and experimentation, you can't touch the Beatles for their time. Apathy. People didn't care, they didn't pay attention to what was going on, they didn't take a stand...they supported what was safe, common, predictable, expected...just like Living Colour's record company did with the cover of their first album...they didn't and dont' challenge the presumed wisdom of the day...and so much of this music (Black Music?) has died. They largely did this because, they were comfortable and complacent in the cultural resonance they were receiving from MI at the time - and the fact that the music industry was successful in keeping them pacified in this way. Same game today? They were content with their Bread and Circuses... It's hard to say. .. |-Original Message- |From: David Powers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:31 PM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) | | |Great post. I may have been misinformed, I was thinking about it |more in terms of the classifying of music by the record labels |than the meaning of the music for the people who made it. Now I'm |trying to remember which label it was that the record industry |used, maybe it was RB? | |And actually, I have to admit that the concept of soul you are |speaking about does not require any kind of metaphysics and could |be a very useful Idea. I come from a very conservative white |Christian background where soul is used as an extremely |repressive idea and justifies oppresion rather than encouraging |people to seek for a better life here on earth. So what is really |interesting is that African-Americans took a notion from their |oppresors and transformed it, took it down a life of flight so |that it became a liberating concept. | |And if you think about it in terms of music, this is really |interesting because African-Americans have always borrowed from |the white European tradition, but at the same time have often been |successful at liberating these elements from their hierarchical |origins and set them in motion, into a continuous variation where |the elements that are ripped from their foundation in an oppresive |hierarchical Culture now enter into free play and communicate with |all the other elements of music. A continuous line of variation |rather than a strict code of meaning. (On the other hand there is |always a Winton Marsalis at the end of the line trying to block |the development, saying our music is a CLASSICAL music, hip hop, |techno and free jazz, well THAT doesn't swing, that's not real |music, that's not our identity, we need to find our place as an |extension of Western Culture.) | |313 people, you might think I'm off topic but really I'm talking |about things like jazz chords, instrumental virtuosity, 808, 909, |303, DIY use of technology, sampler; all the elements of Detroit |techno can be understood very well in this context. | |dave | | |-- Original Message - |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) |Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:41:17 +0200 |From: Sylvia [EMAIL PROTECTED] |To: David Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | | ||On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for ||black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a spiritual ||or metaphysical concept. | |Euphemism | |'blues' is without hope and that its singers accept their |conditions without |complaint or expectation of anything better. Soul borrowed an |expectation of |a better world from gospel, but translate it into a worldly context as |opposed to a religious one. Gospel gives soul its optimism because it |believes in a better world in heaven, soul starts looking for that better |world on earth. | |Soul Music is the product of
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Its discussions like this that really makes me hate techno and everyone that goes with it. |-Original Message- |From: Sylvia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: 18 June 2003 23:52 |To: David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going |on about) | | |because African-Americans have always borrowed from |the white European tradition, | |Borrowed ? say What ? Kind of comment can just come from a |perfect imbecile who is a waste of human flesh, and his only |use on this earth is to take up space, God knows why, thank |you very much for your brilliant comments, I much appreciated |meantime let me tell you that: | |The music was a product of the existing environment of the |time in which the musicians who created it lived.. social and |political striking periods of black people in America, have |always been accompanied with a new musical genre, as an |example Period of Soul is roughly defined as 1955 - 1970. It |very much parallels the Civil Rights movement. | |- African roots music 1619! brought to us Negro spirituals 1825-1850 |- Negro spiritual antique Gospel Music brought to us Gospel |music: 1890 then Rhythm and Blues as BLUES: early 1900s and |then Jazz: 1920 |- Gospel and RB brought to us Soul |- Jazz brought to us Funk | |I wonder how you can be daily, next, go alongside to people of |which you do not even know the life, the existence, the |history ...the roots! | |Take some teach on my web at |http://www.guerrillafunk.com/thoughts/doc1788.html | |And let me quote myself from an email that I sent to this same |list on March 6th 2002! | |Yeah, it is...but a lot of things used to be black people |music too. Although jazz was pioneered by black artists...who |is the most well known jazz musician today? Kenny G? (What |happened to Coltrane and Miles Davis?) Although blues music |was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well known |blues musician today? Stevie Ray Vaughn? (What happened to |Muddy Waters, Albert King and Robert Johnson? Even Robert |Cray?) |And although rock was pioneered by black artists...who is the |most well loved and respected rock group in the world? The |Beatles? (What happened to Little Richard , Chuck Berry, and |Bo Diddley?) Apathy. People didn't care, they didn't pay |attention to what was going on, they didn't take a |stand...they supported what was safe, common, |predictable, expected...just like Living Colour's record |company did with the cover of their first album...they didn't |and dont' challenge the presumed wisdom of the day...and so |much of this music (Black Music?) has died. They largely did |this because, they were comfortable and complacent in the |cultural resonance they were receiving from MI at the time - |and the fact that the music industry was successful in keeping |them pacified in this way. Same game today? They were content |with their Bread and Circuses... It's hard to say. .. | | ||-Original Message- ||From: David Powers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ||Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:31 PM ||To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; David Powers ||Cc: 313@hyperreal.org ||Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on ||about) || || ||Great post. I may have been misinformed, I was thinking |about it more ||in terms of the classifying of music by the record labels than the ||meaning of the music for the people who made it. Now I'm trying to ||remember which label it was that the record industry used, |maybe it was ||RB? || ||And actually, I have to admit that the concept of soul you are ||speaking about does not require any kind of metaphysics and |could be a ||very useful Idea. I come from a very conservative white Christian ||background where soul is used as an extremely repressive idea and ||justifies oppresion rather than encouraging people to seek |for a better ||life here on earth. So what is really interesting is that ||African-Americans took a notion from their oppresors and transformed ||it, took it down a life of flight so that it became a liberating ||concept. || ||And if you think about it in terms of music, this is really |interesting ||because African-Americans have always borrowed from the white |European ||tradition, but at the same time have often been successful at ||liberating these elements from their hierarchical origins and |set them ||in motion, into a continuous variation where the elements that are ||ripped from their foundation in an oppresive hierarchical Culture now ||enter into free play and communicate with all the other elements of ||music. A continuous line of variation rather than a strict code of ||meaning. (On the other hand there is always a Winton Marsalis at the ||end of the line trying to block the development, saying our |music is a ||CLASSICAL music, hip hop, techno and free jazz, well THAT doesn't ||swing, that's not real music, that's not our identity, we |need to find
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Borrowed ? say What ? Kind of comment can just come from a perfect imbecile who is a waste of human flesh, and his only use on this earth is to take up space, God knows why, thank you very much for your brilliant comments, Whoa, Sylvia, chill the f*ck out for a second. I questioned David too but he did have some stuff to back up what he was saying (Dave I hope you don't mind me posting this and I apologize for including sections of a private post but I think in this case it's necessary): 1. Adaption of western instruments, use of these instruments in non-traditional ways. Although it's not cut and dry - there are some instruments that African's picked up after being taken to the Americas (largely brass marching band instruments and piano). 2. Obvious examples, the black church's use of white gospel music; Duke Ellington influenced by Ravel and Debussy; Art Tatum's reworking of the Western classical virtuosic pianistic tradition; Charlie Parker playing along with Stravinsky records; the uses jazz musicians have made of a classical text called Slominsky's Thesaurus of Scales... This is true. *Some* African-American jazz artists were and are influenced by European classical forms. 3. All jazz harmony is a mutant, revised version of Western classical harmony. Well, this isn't actually true - blue notes/harmonies are African in origin and never existed in Western scales /dave I don't think he is saying that African-American's have borrowed *everything* from European traditions. I think what he is trying to say is that there was a bit of back and forth between both cultures. However, you are right, Anglo culture has taken much more without giving credit (and also watering it down to the point of *blah*) and also trying to keep black artists underfunded, underrepresented, and corralled into a stereotype (ie. gangsta rap). Here's some other info that does defend what Dave was saying: Many Jazz writers have pointed out that the non-Jazz elements from which Jazz was formed, the Blues, Ragtime, Brass Band Music, Hymns and Spirituals, Minstrel music and work songs were ubiquitous in the United States and known in dozens of cities. Why then, they reason, should New Orleans be singled out as the sole birthplace of Jazz? These writers are overlooking one important factor that existed only in New Orleans, namely, the black Creole subculture. The Creoles were free, French and Spanish speaking Blacks, originally from the West Indies, who lived first under Spanish then French rule in the Louisiana Territory. They became Americans as a result of the Louisiana Purchase of 1803 and Louisiana statehood in 1812. The Creoles rose to the highest levels of New Orleans society during the 19th century. They lived in the French section of the city east of Canal Street and became prominent in the economic and cultural life of the section. The Creole musicians, many of whom were Conservatory trained in Paris, played at the Opera House and in chamber ensembles. Some led the best society bands in New Orleans. They prided themselves on their formal knowledge of European music, precise technique and soft delicate tone and had all of the social and cultural values that characterize the upper class. In sharp contrast were the people of the American part of New Orleans, who lived west of Canal Street. They were newly freed blacks who were poor, uneducated, and totally lacking in cultural and economic advantages. The musicians of the American section, also called the Back o' town section, were schooled in the blues, Gospel music, and work songs that they sang or played mostly by ear. Memorization and improvisation characterized the west side bands; sight reading and correct performance were characteristic of Creole bands. Then in 1894 an odious racial segregation law was enacted in New Orleans which forced the refined Creoles to live on the other side of Canal Street. Though this was a cultural catastrophe for the Creoles, they soon gained musical leadership of the American section . It was the musical sparks that flew on the clashing of these very different cultures in the ensuing decade that ignited the flames of Jazz. These happenings are discussed in the numerous recordings of Jelly Roll Morton made in 1938 at the Library of Congress in which he is interviewed by folk music expert Alan Lomax. They are the best documents we have of the
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
|On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for |black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a spiritual |or metaphysical concept. Euphemism 'blues' is without hope and that its singers accept their conditions without complaint or expectation of anything better. Soul borrowed an expectation of a better world from gospel, but translate it into a worldly context as opposed to a religious one. Gospel gives soul its optimism because it believes in a better world in heaven, soul starts looking for that better world on earth. Soul Music is the product of ever evolving social conditions and a diversity of musical influences Soul Music is about the problems faced by groups of people, not of individuals Soul Music is about poverty and day to day drudgery Soul Music is the belief that circumstances can improve Soul Music is about realism, it is not blinkered by romantic ideals The 'Moan' is a defining characteristic of Soul Music Soul Music is tolerant Soul Music is. Euphemism, pt, dubya! but yes understanding Soul Music can just escape from a brain with 2 neurons without connector. |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 12:58 AM |To: David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; spw |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) | | | |On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for |black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a spiritual |or metaphysical concept. | |The hell it doesn't have a spiritual concept! Where the hell do you think |Soul music came from? | |Listen to Ray Charles man, and then tell me that there isn't a spiritual |side to Soul music - one of the biggest influences on Soul music was the |church. All those singers - All Green, Mavis Staple, Aretha Franklin, and |so many more got their start in the church. That's not to say that Soul = |Gospel but there in a huge influence of Gospel on Soul. Soul music is the |merging of the spiritual with the physical - that's why it's so great to |dance to... it satisfies the body, mind and soul. |(That's why I love the term High Tech Soul = Techno or Techno Soul) | |MEK | | |
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a spiritual or metaphysical concept. Random tangent : did any uk peeps see the soul documentary with trevor nelson last night ? Was pretty interesting stuff ! Peace, Marc -- This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded as an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial product, an official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official statement of Lehman Brothers. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Therefore, we do not represent that this information is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All information is subject to change without notice.
Re: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Random tangent : did any uk peeps see the soul documentary with trevor nelson last night ? Was pretty interesting stuff ! Peace, Marc Yeah man, I've always been pretty fascinated by that old Wigan Northen Soul scene. Looked like a wicked scene when it was happening. If I'd been 10 years older I reckon I would have been donning a pair of baggy trousers, braces and a vest and getting down myself:) Those guys were nutty dancers and it was cool to see all them die hard old soul boys still doing thier moves today! Every now and then I try and check out Keb Darge's Legendary Deep funk night down at Jo Jo's and Cant resist throwing the old twirl into my moves :) What I find interesting about it is the comparison the scene had with the whole early rave days that I was a part of. To hear some of the guys explain how it started out all about the music, but as the drugs became a bigger and bigger part of it and it grew from a relativly underground scene to something that everyone wanted to get into, the music slowly started to deterioate as the DJs started playing for the masses rather than the hardcore fans. Guess its always the same with any underground scene where drugs play a large part of it, your never gonna get more than a couple of years out of it before it blows up and loses its original vibe. Stewart __ Join Freeserve http://www.freeserve.com/time/ Winner of the 2003 Internet Service Providers' Association awards for Best Unmetered ISP and Best Consumer Application.
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
There was this show on lastnight about soul music. Bunch of poms strutting around in pastel colours and getting naked at beach raves listening to soul. Was amusing :-) |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: 17 June 2003 23:58 |To: David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; spw |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going |on about) | | | |On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for |black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as |a spiritual or metaphysical concept. | |The hell it doesn't have a spiritual concept! Where the hell |do you think Soul music came from? | |Listen to Ray Charles man, and then tell me that there isn't a |spiritual side to Soul music - one of the biggest influences |on Soul music was the church. All those singers - All Green, |Mavis Staple, Aretha Franklin, and so many more got their |start in the church. That's not to say that Soul = Gospel but |there in a huge influence of Gospel on Soul. Soul music is the |merging of the spiritual with the physical - that's why it's |so great to dance to... it satisfies the body, mind and |soul. (That's why I love the term High Tech Soul = Techno |or Techno Soul) | |MEK | |
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Random tangent : did any uk peeps see the soul documentary with trevor nelson last night ? Was pretty interesting stuff ! Yeah, yeah, I saw it. Thought it was really good. Kind of a different perspective on it all. Deffo an essex boys take on soul. Did you see Norman Jay talking about Wigan? I was laughing... Anyway, if its repeated and you missed it - get on it! I have a feeling the next two won't be as good, but still interesting _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
really enjoyed it and it reminded me of when I listened to Loose Ends, Imagination and all those people when I was 8/9 and then I moved onto Hip Hop. Its funny how long all this has been going on :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 June 2003 09:41 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) Random tangent : did any uk peeps see the soul documentary with trevor nelson last night ? Was pretty interesting stuff ! Yeah, yeah, I saw it. Thought it was really good. Kind of a different perspective on it all. Deffo an essex boys take on soul. Did you see Norman Jay talking about Wigan? I was laughing... Anyway, if its repeated and you missed it - get on it! I have a feeling the next two won't be as good, but still interesting _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 10/06/03 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 10/06/03
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Great post. I may have been misinformed, I was thinking about it more in terms of the classifying of music by the record labels than the meaning of the music for the people who made it. Now I'm trying to remember which label it was that the record industry used, maybe it was RB? And actually, I have to admit that the concept of soul you are speaking about does not require any kind of metaphysics and could be a very useful Idea. I come from a very conservative white Christian background where soul is used as an extremely repressive idea and justifies oppresion rather than encouraging people to seek for a better life here on earth. So what is really interesting is that African-Americans took a notion from their oppresors and transformed it, took it down a life of flight so that it became a liberating concept. And if you think about it in terms of music, this is really interesting because African-Americans have always borrowed from the white European tradition, but at the same time have often been successful at liberating these elements from their hierarchical origins and set them in motion, into a continuous variation where the elements that are ripped from their foundation in an oppresive hierarchical Culture now enter into free play and communicate with all the other elements of music. A continuous line of variation rather than a strict code of meaning. (On the other hand there is always a Winton Marsalis at the end of the line trying to block the development, saying our music is a CLASSICAL music, hip hop, techno and free jazz, well THAT doesn't swing, that's not real music, that's not our identity, we need to find our place as an extension of Western Culture.) 313 people, you might think I'm off topic but really I'm talking about things like jazz chords, instrumental virtuosity, 808, 909, 303, DIY use of technology, sampler; all the elements of Detroit techno can be understood very well in this context. dave -- Original Message - Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:41:17 +0200 From: Sylvia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] |On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for |black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a spiritual |or metaphysical concept. Euphemism 'blues' is without hope and that its singers accept their conditions without complaint or expectation of anything better. Soul borrowed an expectation of a better world from gospel, but translate it into a worldly context as opposed to a religious one. Gospel gives soul its optimism because it believes in a better world in heaven, soul starts looking for that better world on earth. Soul Music is the product of ever evolving social conditions and a diversity of musical influences Soul Music is about the problems faced by groups of people, not of individuals Soul Music is about poverty and day to day drudgery Soul Music is the belief that circumstances can improve Soul Music is about realism, it is not blinkered by romantic ideals The 'Moan' is a defining characteristic of Soul Music Soul Music is tolerant Soul Music is. Euphemism, pt, dubya! but yes understanding Soul Music can just escape from a brain with 2 neurons without connector. |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 12:58 AM |To: David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; spw |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) | | | |On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for |black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a spiritual |or metaphysical concept. | |The hell it doesn't have a spiritual concept! Where the hell do you think |Soul music came from? | |Listen to Ray Charles man, and then tell me that there isn't a spiritual |side to Soul music - one of the biggest influences on Soul music was the |church. All those singers - All Green, Mavis Staple, Aretha Franklin, and |so many more got their start in the church. That's not to say that Soul = |Gospel but there in a huge influence of Gospel on Soul. Soul music is the |merging of the spiritual with the physical - that's why it's so great to |dance to... it satisfies the body, mind and soul. |(That's why I love the term High Tech Soul = Techno or Techno Soul) | |MEK | | |
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
Sounds heavy |-Original Message- |From: David Powers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: 18 June 2003 16:31 |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going |on about) | | |Great post. I may have been misinformed, I was thinking about |it more in terms of the classifying of music by the record |labels than the meaning of the music for the people who made |it. Now I'm trying to remember which label it was that the |record industry used, maybe it was RB? | |And actually, I have to admit that the concept of soul you |are speaking about does not require any kind of metaphysics |and could be a very useful Idea. I come from a very |conservative white Christian background where soul is used |as an extremely repressive idea and justifies oppresion rather |than encouraging people to seek for a better life here on |earth. So what is really interesting is that |African-Americans took a notion from their oppresors and |transformed it, took it down a life of flight so that it |became a liberating concept. | |And if you think about it in terms of music, this is really |interesting because African-Americans have always borrowed |from the white European tradition, but at the same time have |often been successful at liberating these elements from their |hierarchical origins and set them in motion, into a continuous |variation where the elements that are ripped from their |foundation in an oppresive hierarchical Culture now enter into |free play and communicate with all the other elements of |music. A continuous line of variation rather than a strict |code of meaning. (On the other hand there is always a Winton |Marsalis at the end of the line trying to block the |development, saying our music is a CLASSICAL music, hip hop, |techno and free jazz, well THAT doesn't swing, that's not real |music, that's not our identity, we need to find our place as |an extension of Western Culture.) | |313 people, you might think I'm off topic but really I'm |talking about things like jazz chords, instrumental |virtuosity, 808, 909, 303, DIY use of technology, sampler; all |the elements of Detroit techno can be understood very well in |this context. | |dave | | |-- Original Message - |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going |on about) |Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:41:17 +0200 |From: Sylvia [EMAIL PROTECTED] |To: David Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | | ||On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for ||black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a ||spiritual or metaphysical concept. | |Euphemism | |'blues' is without hope and that its singers accept their |conditions without complaint or expectation of anything |better. Soul borrowed an expectation of a better world from |gospel, but translate it into a worldly context as opposed to |a religious one. Gospel gives soul its optimism because it |believes in a better world in heaven, soul starts looking for |that better world on earth. | |Soul Music is the product of ever evolving social conditions |and a diversity of musical influences Soul Music is about the |problems faced by groups of people, not of individuals Soul |Music is about poverty and day to day drudgery Soul Music is |the belief that circumstances can improve Soul Music is about |realism, it is not blinkered by romantic ideals The 'Moan' is |a defining characteristic of Soul Music Soul Music is tolerant |Soul Music is. | |Euphemism, pt, dubya! but yes understanding Soul Music can |just escape from a brain with 2 neurons without connector. | | | ||-Original Message- ||From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ||[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ||Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 12:58 AM ||To: David Powers ||Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; spw ||Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on ||about) || || || ||On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for ||black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a ||spiritual or metaphysical concept. || ||The hell it doesn't have a spiritual concept! Where the hell do you ||think Soul music came from? || ||Listen to Ray Charles man, and then tell me that there isn't a ||spiritual side to Soul music - one of the biggest influences on Soul ||music was the church. All those singers - All Green, Mavis Staple, ||Aretha Franklin, and so many more got their start in the |church. That's ||not to say that Soul = Gospel but there in a huge influence of Gospel ||on Soul. Soul music is the merging of the spiritual with the |physical - ||that's why it's so great to dance to... it satisfies the |body, mind and ||soul. (That's why I love the term High Tech Soul = Techno or ||Techno Soul) || ||MEK || || || | | |
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Sylvia wrote: |On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for |black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a spiritual |or metaphysical concept. Euphemism 'blues' is without hope and that its singers accept their conditions without complaint or expectation of anything better. Soul borrowed an expectation of a better world from gospel, but translate it into a worldly context as opposed to a religious one. Gospel gives soul its optimism because it believes in a better world in heaven, soul starts looking for that better world on earth. Albery Murray in STOMPING THE BLUES, argues that the blues is actually about CHANGING MATERIAL CONDITIONS THROUGH STYLE, GRACE, AND SONG. The blues (the song genre) were played to actually TAKE THE BLUES (the feeling) AWAY! Now i don't like the blues in general. But it's important to correct this. Sylvia isn't coming up with this out of thin air--her interpretation is the generally accepted interpretation in mainstream literature. Soul Music is the product of ever evolving social conditions and a diversity of musical influences Soul Music is about the problems faced by groups of people, not of individuals Soul Music is about poverty and day to day drudgery Soul Music is the belief that circumstances can improve Soul Music is about realism, it is not blinkered by romantic ideals The 'Moan' is a defining characteristic of Soul Music Soul Music is tolerant Soul Music is. Euphemism, pt, dubya! but yes understanding Soul Music can just escape from a brain with 2 neurons without connector. Similarly, soul music isn't JUST about the problems. Maybe looking at techno (the detroit brand) will clear this up a bit. By now, many of you have been able to actually see Detroit in all of her terrible glory. And I'm pretty sure ALL of you have read about Detroit in interviews with Detroit artists. When they talk about Detroit inevitably the idea of it being like a Western version of Beirut comes up. Images of Detroit being a Very Bad Place come to mind readily. Ignoring for a second statements from the artists about how the landscape of Detroit impacted their soundscape, LISTEN to the music. Do you hear horror or contextual poverty in STRINGS OF LIFE? In NUDE PHOTO? In TRIANGLE OF LOVE? There is undoubtedly some darkness in these and other songs. But that isn't all there is. Just as techno is solely a reaction to a limited vision of what Detroit is, soul (and the blues) isn't simply a reaction to subjugation. I don't think we'd be listening to this stuff if it were. peace lks
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
because African-Americans have always borrowed from the white European tradition, Borrowed ? say What ? Kind of comment can just come from a perfect imbecile who is a waste of human flesh, and his only use on this earth is to take up space, God knows why, thank you very much for your brilliant comments, I much appreciated meantime let me tell you that: The music was a product of the existing environment of the time in which the musicians who created it lived.. social and political striking periods of black people in America, have always been accompanied with a new musical genre, as an example Period of Soul is roughly defined as 1955 - 1970. It very much parallels the Civil Rights movement. - African roots music 1619! brought to us Negro spirituals 1825-1850 - Negro spiritual antique Gospel Music brought to us Gospel music: 1890 then Rhythm and Blues as BLUES: early 1900s and then Jazz: 1920 - Gospel and RB brought to us Soul - Jazz brought to us Funk I wonder how you can be daily, next, go alongside to people of which you do not even know the life, the existence, the history ...the roots! Take some teach on my web at http://www.guerrillafunk.com/thoughts/doc1788.html And let me quote myself from an email that I sent to this same list on March 6th 2002! Yeah, it is...but a lot of things used to be black people music too. Although jazz was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well known jazz musician today? Kenny G? (What happened to Coltrane and Miles Davis?) Although blues music was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well known blues musician today? Stevie Ray Vaughn? (What happened to Muddy Waters, Albert King and Robert Johnson? Even Robert Cray?) And although rock was pioneered by black artists...who is the most well loved and respected rock group in the world? The Beatles? (What happened to Little Richard , Chuck Berry, and Bo Diddley?) Apathy. People didn't care, they didn't pay attention to what was going on, they didn't take a stand...they supported what was safe, common, predictable, expected...just like Living Colour's record company did with the cover of their first album...they didn't and dont' challenge the presumed wisdom of the day...and so much of this music (Black Music?) has died. They largely did this because, they were comfortable and complacent in the cultural resonance they were receiving from MI at the time - and the fact that the music industry was successful in keeping them pacified in this way. Same game today? They were content with their Bread and Circuses... It's hard to say. .. |-Original Message- |From: David Powers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:31 PM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; David Powers |Cc: 313@hyperreal.org |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) | | |Great post. I may have been misinformed, I was thinking about it |more in terms of the classifying of music by the record labels |than the meaning of the music for the people who made it. Now I'm |trying to remember which label it was that the record industry |used, maybe it was RB? | |And actually, I have to admit that the concept of soul you are |speaking about does not require any kind of metaphysics and could |be a very useful Idea. I come from a very conservative white |Christian background where soul is used as an extremely |repressive idea and justifies oppresion rather than encouraging |people to seek for a better life here on earth. So what is really |interesting is that African-Americans took a notion from their |oppresors and transformed it, took it down a life of flight so |that it became a liberating concept. | |And if you think about it in terms of music, this is really |interesting because African-Americans have always borrowed from |the white European tradition, but at the same time have often been |successful at liberating these elements from their hierarchical |origins and set them in motion, into a continuous variation where |the elements that are ripped from their foundation in an oppresive |hierarchical Culture now enter into free play and communicate with |all the other elements of music. A continuous line of variation |rather than a strict code of meaning. (On the other hand there is |always a Winton Marsalis at the end of the line trying to block |the development, saying our music is a CLASSICAL music, hip hop, |techno and free jazz, well THAT doesn't swing, that's not real |music, that's not our identity, we need to find our place as an |extension of Western Culture.) | |313 people, you might think I'm off topic but really I'm talking |about things like jazz chords, instrumental virtuosity, 808, 909, |303, DIY use of technology, sampler; all the elements of Detroit |techno can be understood very well in this context. | |dave | | |-- Original Message - |Subject: RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about) |Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:41:17 +0200 |From:
RE: (313) Soul Music (was some nonsense spw was going on about)
On the other hand, Soul Music as a genre was a just a euphimism for black music, and doesn't have anything to do with soul as a spiritual or metaphysical concept. The hell it doesn't have a spiritual concept! Where the hell do you think Soul music came from? Listen to Ray Charles man, and then tell me that there isn't a spiritual side to Soul music - one of the biggest influences on Soul music was the church. All those singers - All Green, Mavis Staple, Aretha Franklin, and so many more got their start in the church. That's not to say that Soul = Gospel but there in a huge influence of Gospel on Soul. Soul music is the merging of the spiritual with the physical - that's why it's so great to dance to... it satisfies the body, mind and soul. (That's why I love the term High Tech Soul = Techno or Techno Soul) MEK
