Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;692914 Wrote: ...there's more to CD conversion than the data itself... No, there isn't. All that's on the CD is the data. Getting a perfect rip and storing the bits is trivial these days. This is the crux of the issue. You seem to be giving credence to the daft TAS claims, and the fact that you're a hifi retailer, particularly one who is apparently an evangelist for computer-based audio, illustrates perfectly what's so annoying about those claims. -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
darrell;692937 Wrote: (Ignoring the puzzling reference to SBGK) I'm puzzled too: apparently someone/thing called SBGK sang the same tune recently. darrell;692937 Wrote: There is such a thing as pointless over-engineering. And the hifi industry is full of it. Are you really suggesting that if I wanted to spend £2000 on an upgrade to my system I would be better off improving my transport than looking at my speakers, my room, digital correction systems? I should worry about pico-second jitter, or tiny power supply fluctuations while ignoring the gross distortions in the conversion of electrical energy back into sound waves, and the further distortion of those sound waves between my speakers and my ears? Seriously, this knee jerk source first stuff has to stop. No dispute: if we say that (very roughly) 50% of what you're listening to is the speaker+room, perhaps 20% is the source. If digital, less than half of that is the transport. So, best case, we're talking about finessing 10% of the performance of a system. So, no, you'd be pretty dumb to spend £2K on a transport in a system with a £300 amplifier and £500 speakers in a badly designed room. That's Squeezebox or netbook territory. It's plain to see when economic and technical arguments are naively mixed up or deliberately obfuscated - as if every expensive thing is a con. I'm in the business of sound-per-pound: on a budget, netbook + DAC + small active speakers is the only way to fly. If you've more to spend, Squeezebox + NAS + DAC + what-have-you works too. If you're serious about getting a digital front end to sound really good, in a costly system - like a good turntable or old-school high-end CD player - you inevitably have to deal with the issues I've outlined. Horses for courses. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
No one here has claimed everything expensive is a con. What has been claimed is that asking for lots of money to polish your ones and zeros so they are more shiny is a con. -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
chill;692970 Wrote: No, there isn't. All that's on the CD is the data. Getting a perfect rip and storing the bits is trivial these days. This is the crux of the issue. You seem to be giving credence to the daft TAS claims, and the fact that you're a hifi retailer, particularly one who is apparently an evangelist for computer-based audio, illustrates perfectly what's so annoying about those claims. I'm refusing to scorn an idea that - granted - initially seems unlikely. I'm not leaping to the knee-jerk conclusion that everyone who says similar things is delusional. I am questioning the credibility of those throwing stones in ignorance. And, yes, we are a bit evangelical about computer audio in the geekiest possible way. However, given that no-one stands to make a penny from the idea that rips or file formats differ, we can't even impute a commercial motive to the OP, who isn't even getting the right to reply. So that shouldn't annoy you. Again, separating the technical from the economic, what's annoying is the price, not the claim. If we plug into the Randi debate for a moment, no-one would object to a £2000 interconnect if it costed £50 and sounded the same: in fact, we'd all be congratulating in on being so accomplished. Yes: high end cables cost too much. I've elsewhere argued that it's ethically indefensible for almost any interconnect to cost more than £500. Yes - some rich people are being overcharged for their toys: heck, there are worse things to complain about. What really rubs on us, I think, is knowing that the highest levels of sound reproduction are only available to the privileged few who can afford them. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
andynormancx;692978 Wrote: No one here has claimed everything expensive is a con. What has been claimed is that asking for lots of money to polish your ones and zeros so they are more shiny is a con. The cost is the issue that vexes people, though. Obviously transports vary: the Transporter sounded different to any other Logitech device, and the new models will probably sound better than the old ones. Transports and bitstreams are evidently highly polishable: but the aim is not to polish 'up' the data, additively, but to polish out noise and jitter imperfections. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
totoro;692943 Wrote: faux-adult concern-troll persona. Weren't they a Swedish avant-rock folktronic band from the Nineties? -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Best way of getting from SB to speakers
TheLastMan;692823 Wrote: Is the Squeezebox the only source component you are going to use? If the answer is yes you could go with the power-amp plus volume control (or attenuators) discussed here, *but try to keep it simple.* If the answer is no, and you might, in the future, be connecting a CD player, DAB radio or other source *or want to keep things simple* then get a good quality integrated amp. Not initially. The Touch already has an excellent internal DAC that you will struggle to better without paying a lot of money. If you are using the analogue RCA plugs there is no need to disable anything. If you are interested in music rather than hi-fi it would be better to *spend the money on a few more CDs and keep it simple.* Philosophical note from somebody who in their 20s had a severe case of upgraditis and was living in tweak hell; Go to a decent hi-fi dealer with a proper listening room who is prepared to give you some time (I took a day of holiday and did not regret it). Take your speakers (if they don't have your model) and do some *blind* listening to amplifiers. Pick the one that sounds best in your price range, buy it, plug it in and forget it. Don't buy an amplifier, DAC or any other piece of equipment based only on what I, a magazine review, or anybody else tells you *without listening to it first - ideally compared to other amps*. Don't dismiss second hand or ex-demo equipment. I bought my amplifier after a blind listening test. The dealer chucked it into the test saying I had to hear it even though the price was less than half my budget. I did not know what it was before I heard it. It was over 10 years old then and, despite being half the price, it blew anything newer I tried in the same test out of the water. It is still my main amplifier and is now 30 years old! If connected to a decent amplifier then the RCA (phono) cables will be fine. If you don't get a DAC you can forget the coax output. *Edit: *'My story from another thread' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=638210postcount=66) Some crucial points there: I would add that taking speakers into someone else's room is a no-no: it pays to think of your speakers and room as two components of the same cabinet (which it is!) There's no substitute for listening to equipment in your own room and system, for an extended period of time, not just a 'flash' audition: very often, your opinion of/acclimation to a piece of equipment changes considerably in the first week: I know that it's easy to impress a customer on a quick listen, but the keepers are sometimes those whose merits emerge gradually. Rather like people! You basically have to address three questions: 1. Is it worth it to spend on a better DAC than the one you already have? I would suggest that the entry point here is around £150. If you're not into at least that kind of spend, I'd stick with what you have. Similarly, if you're streaming MP3/Spotify or compressed formats, you're already living with a significant compromise, and would want to budget judiciously. However, the DAC is a big factor in the quality of your system, and you might be surprised by how good your Squeezebox can sound driving something exciting. 2. If you upgrade the DAC to an off-board model, do you shop for one with a volume control? If you decide on 'integrated' amplification, then no. If you decide on direct-to-power amplification, or active speakers, yes. A dedicated preamp at this price point is probably a bad idea, too: analog volume controls are expensive to build well, and sound grotty on a budget. The Endler attenuators sound good (and are cheap) but are clunky. There are several pro audio devices that are worth looking into. In terms of amplification, everything depends on your budget: there are now several integrated DAC/amplifiers that would give you a one-box solution that plays to the strengths of your Squeezebox (which isn't its analog stage!) On a budget, there's really nothing to touch the speed, value for money and transparency of Tripath amps paired with a good power supply. This is a golden age of good, cheap performance, so shop around: get home trials, and be prepared to look off the beaten track for the best deals: high street resellers are generally still peddling solutions from the 1980s from the big monolithic companies. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93776 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
totoro;692942 Wrote: What a complete load of shit. When you can show a properly blinded and controlled test that shows such effects exist, and/or can come up with any kind of reasonable hypothesis as to what might cause these effects, other than placebo, it might be worth having a discussion. As to adults vs children: some of us here work with this technology everyday in a non audio context, and probably have bit more of an adult perspective on how these things work than you do. I'd be willing to be that none of the experts involved in this testing have tried to control any of this by, for example, moving the files a couple of times, putting them onto partitions with different filesystems, checking before and after defragging, etc. All of this would be necessary for the pseudo-empiricism on display here to be anything more than the sad cargo-cult imitation of the real thing that it so plainly is. You are essentially demanding that someone _proves_ a negative here, which you are just about smart enough to know isn't possible. But you do seem dim enough to think that is a clever polemical move. Sigh. You are a troll and pretty clearly a shill as well. As we have all said, there is no working hypothesis yet. Only anecdotal evidence, subjectively reported. For some reason, this makes you fearful and uncertain and doubtful, and want to hurl rocks. No-one on this side of the fence is making demands of anyone: especially of proof: it's just interesting stuff to investigate. The more you look into it, the more evidentially based and interesting it becomes. The less you examine it, the simpler it seems and (apparently) the angrier it makes you. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;692990 Wrote: As we have all said, there is no working hypothesis yet. Only anecdotal evidence, subjectively reported. For some reason, this makes you fearful and uncertain and doubtful, and want to hurl rocks. No-one on this side of the fence is making demands of anyone: especially of proof: it's just interesting stuff to investigate. The more you look into it, the more evidentially based and interesting it becomes. The less one examines it, the simpler it seems and (apparently) the angrier it makes people. People are angry because non-information is being either cynically or stupidly paraded as some sort of evidence. 1 There absolutely no reason to believe that file location/identity of ripper/whatever affects the sound, on conversion to analog, of 2 identical files 2 there is no evidence they those files do sound different. Until such time as there is any evidence it is not an interesting topic of conversation any more than is the biochemistry of the unicorn.Anecdotal reports from audiophiles are of zero evidential value. There is no proposition too stupid to be reported by an audiophile Having read your postings, I have come to the conclusion that they just consistent of a loads of words more or less randomly. Eg The more you look into it, the more evidentially based and interesting it becomes- This is just drivel. There is nothing interesting about people claiming to hear differences in things which sound the same. It's not the exception it's the rule. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;692984 Wrote: I'm refusing to scorn an idea that - granted - initially seems unlikely. I'm not leaping to the knee-jerk conclusion that everyone who says similar things is delusional. I am questioning the credibility of those throwing stones in ignorance. And, yes, we are a bit evangelical about computer audio in the geekiest possible way. However, given that no-one stands to make a penny from the idea that rips or file formats differ, we can't even impute a commercial motive to the OP, who isn't even getting the right to reply. So that shouldn't annoy you. Not only is this delusional, it is dishonest and unethical. A bit-perfect rip is a bit-perfect rip and that really is all there is to it. There's nothing special about the bits on a music CD compared to those on a computer CD-ROM. They are both simply DATA. Are you trying to claim otherwise? To do so would be to deny that computers work properly and that there might be some variability in the way that CD-Roms are read by by CD-ROM drives. There isn't because - funnily enough - every time you insert a CD-ROM into a computer, it reads exactly the same bit values (or you get a fatal read error if it can't!). Good heavens, man. What if you download the 16/44.1 files from the Internet (e.g. from Linn, Naim etc)? Are those files different to ones own rips - I'll spare you the trouble... they aren't. Same data. It's just data. Not magic, alchemy, unknown alien technology or random acts of chaos. This can all be mathematically proven - something which is pretty rare in audio circles. I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree on this. There are lots of issues to resolve in audio reproduction. Getting the right data simply isn't one of them in the digital streaming model as this is all handled by the computers and - bizarrely - computers are rather good at handling data in reliable, predictable ways. The same comment also applies to networks. This whole TAS thing is a complete crock from start to finish. They are desperate to convince people that there are black arts to be mastered and (inevitably) expensive solutions to be found, in order to fuel pernicious attempts by snake oil merchants to part fools from their money. Caveat Emptor indeed!. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Yep TAS is basically saying that if I download from Linn Today and also Tomorrow and compare those copies and find them identical, they would still sound different ?? Complete idiocy . I wonder what folks would say about my sanity if I claimed to see things that does not stick to a photography this is an equivalent of hearing things that can not be measured or tested or adm*ed or abx*ed . I see the unicorn but somehow it's photons don't stick to film or excite the ccd in my camera ? -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
Mildly modded Touch - hardwired blue jeans coax with BNC - BNC modified Rega DAC -- HumanMedia HumanMedia's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44865 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Mnyb;693001 Wrote: I see the unicorn but somehow it's photons don't stick to film or excite the ccd in my camera ? Obviously. But the moment we refuse to quietly allow people like item_audio dominate any discussion, endlessly rehashing their idiocy about the nature of these unicorns, it means that we're knee-jerking, angry, childish, uncertain, leaping to conclusions and throwing rocks. (Hey, he forgot scared, closed-minded, selfish, evil and slaves of the system. A bit rusty on the suppression techniques, warming up on us before moving on to a more profitable audience maybe?) I think there must be some fraud's handbook around, because they all use the exact same means to inject their dishonest dreck into everything around them. Homeopaths, creationists, witch hunters, quantum healers, spirit mediums, antivaccinationists and audiofools. The exact same techniques. I wouldn't be surprised if audiofool scams even used classic devices such as cold reading when talking to people face to face. And they've all got something to sell. It's disgusting. -They-'re disgusting. But some of them sure are making money. I guess that's all that matters to them. /rant -- Soulkeeper 'Bug 17797: Updating wiki.slimdevices.com' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17797) Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Is not flooding the tread some kind of troll tactic ? item has multiple post in a row talking to himself before anyone replies ? This is not discussion is the intent to saturate the tread with BS ? I have not read all as he went to my ignore list long ago, but what you other guys quote is enough anyway . -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
FYI, I only refer to what others have quoted; he's on my ignore list too. -- Soulkeeper 'Bug 17797: Updating wiki.slimdevices.com' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17797) Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Mnyb;693006 Wrote: Is not flooding the tread some kind of troll tactic ? item has multiple post in a row talking to himself before anyone replies ? This is not discussion is the intent to saturate the tread with BS ? I have not read all as he went to my ignore list long ago, but what you other guys quote is enough anyway . Soulkeeper;693008 Wrote: FYI, I only refer to what others have quoted; he's on my ignore list too. Why has no one mentioned that the little button with quotation () mark on it, located right next to the button that says quote is the multi-quote button. Using the multi-quote button, just as I have done with this post, allows one to post just one response to multiple prior posts. So either item_audio doesn't know how to use the multi-quote feature or he does and just being foolish in order to make his equally foolish point. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 (oops) - Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
adamdea;692991 Wrote: People are angry because non-information is being either cynically or stupidly paraded as some sort of evidence. 1 There absolutely no reason to believe that file location/identity of ripper/whatever affects the sound, on conversion to analog, of 2 identical files 2 there is no evidence they those files do sound different. Until such time as there is any evidence it is not an interesting topic of conversation any more than is the biochemistry of the unicorn.Anecdotal reports from audiophiles are of zero evidential value. There is no proposition too stupid to be reported by an audiophile Having read your postings, I have come to the conclusion that they just consistent of a loads of words more or less randomly. Eg The more you look into it, the more evidentially based and interesting it becomes- This is just drivel. There is nothing interesting about people claiming to hear differences in things which sound the same. It's not the exception it's the rule. Currently, there are no explanations offered as to why or how rips may differ. It seems counter-intuitive, maybe even plain wrong-headed. It may just be delusion or self-deception. All granted. The OP admitted as much: his intention was evidently to stimulate debate in which something might be learned. Shutting down discussion in this way is rather like those who couldn't imagine how a man go travel faster than 15mph without exploding. Progress showed they were wrong. Linn and Naim and Logitech and Yamaha and Medidian and Bryston and Aurender and MSB and Marantz - indeed every leading authority in digital audio design know that case design, power supplies, data sourcing, EM, RF, clock implementation, cabling, board layout, etc affect transport performance. Back in the dark ages, when people believed only in bits, the idea that each of these components would impart a sonic signature was treated with derision. Progress showed they were wrong. So those of us who have previously been embarrassed by their lack of imagination are cagey about saying this or that is 'impossible'. Certainly Linn and Naim felt the question of WAV vs FLAC sufficiently important to investigate and - interestingly - came to different conclusions. Will some new variable emerge that explains rips differing? Who knows - and that's the point. Development is led as much by field results as lab tests: it's all data to the researcher. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
ralphpnj;693010 Wrote: Why has no one mentioned that the little button with quotation () mark on it, located right next to the button that says quote is the multi-quote button. Using the multi-quote button, just as I have done with this post, allows one to post just one response to multiple prior posts. So either item_audio doesn't know how to use the multi-quote feature or he does and just being foolish in order to make his equally foolish point. Different points; different posts. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
SBT coax Metrum NOS Mini DAC Octave ( Astintrew AT 2000plus Proac Response D15 and BW ASW 610 sub) = most satisfied! :-) The improvement of the DAC is the following: detail, stage and realism - to my ears it simply sounds as it should! -- MCG555 Greetings from Switzerland - Markus :-) Proac Response D15, BW Sub ASW 610, Astintrew AT2000plus, SB Touch, Metrum Octave NOS Mini DAC MCG555's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Soulkeeper;693005 Wrote: Obviously. But the moment we refuse to quietly allow people like item_audio dominate any discussion, endlessly rehashing their idiocy about the nature of these unicorns, it means that we're knee-jerking, angry, childish, uncertain, leaping to conclusions and throwing rocks. (Hey, he forgot scared, closed-minded, selfish, evil and slaves of the system. A bit rusty on the suppression techniques, warming up on us before moving on to a more profitable audience maybe?) I think there must be some fraud's handbook around, because they all use the exact same means to inject their dishonest dreck into everything around them. Homeopaths, creationists, witch hunters, quantum healers, spirit mediums, antivaccinationists and audiofools. The exact same techniques. I wouldn't be surprised if audiofool scams even used classic devices such as cold reading when talking to people face to face. And they've all got something to sell. It's disgusting. -They-'re disgusting. But some of them sure are making money. I guess that's all that matters to them. /rant You are entertaining! Who's selling CD rippers? Certainly not the journalists writing the article. I grant you, there seems to be no basis for saying bit-identical rips differ predictably, but you won't catch me throwing rocks or feeling Fearful, Uncertain or Doubtful as - apparently - it was intended. I don't understand why you don't just find it interesting. Please explain: who benefits from that little gem? The journalist made his money the moment he submitted the article, unless he has shares in the software company that make the recommended ripper. Which is free... 'Snake Oil' was an expensive 'remedy' sold as a cure-all by travelling salesmen without qualifications. Here - as with the discussion of WAV v FLAC - there is no snake oil, because nothing is for sale. In place of discussion we have a mess of sloppy thinking, unfounded rage and wildly mis-directed accusation. Don't leap to conclusions on the basis of half the evidence; don't reject field data as irrelevant; don't be quick to assume people are mental; don't get angry (it's only tech); don't assume you're omniscient; and keep your accusations on target. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693013 Wrote: Currently, there are no explanations offered as to why or how rips may differ. It seems counter-intuitive, maybe even plain wrong-headed. It may just be delusion or self-deception. All granted. The OP admitted as much: his intention was evidently to stimulate debate in which something might be learned. Shutting down discussion in this way is rather like those who couldn't imagine how a man go travel faster than 15mph without exploding. Progress showed they were wrong. Linn and Naim and Logitech and Yamaha and Medidian and Bryston and Aurender and MSB and Marantz - indeed every leading authority in digital audio design know that case design, power supplies, data sourcing, EM, RF, clock implementation, cabling, board layout, etc affect transport performance. Back in the dark ages, when people believed only in bits, the idea that each of these components would impart a sonic signature was treated with derision. Progress showed they were wrong. So those of us who have previously been embarrassed by their lack of imagination are cagey about saying this or that is 'impossible'. Certainly Linn and Naim felt the question of WAV vs FLAC sufficiently important to investigate and - interestingly - came to different conclusions. Will some new variable emerge that explains rips differing? Who knows - and that's the point. Development is led as much by field results as lab tests: it's all data to the researcher. There are no logical flaws with the all bit perfect rips sound the same belief. The one basic flaw is in the statement there are no explanations offered as to why or how rips may differ. Here's why there are no explanations: because the rips DO NOT sound different. Just as wav and flac files DO NOT sound different. Just as $5 USB cable and $500 USB cable DO NOT sound different. The TAS articles would be of no interest if they had stated that all bit perfect rips sound the same however stating that there seem to be differences is not only interesting to clueless audiophiles but really, really helpful for high end audio manufacturers trying to sell their new high priced computer audio device. Whether that device is a $$$ USB cable, $ streaming device, ripping software, USB DAC, etc. May I suggest that you take your nonsense and post it over on the TAS and Stereophile forums - those audiophools will eat it up and most of them will even defend you. But please leave the knowledgeable grownups on this forum alone! item_audio;693015 Wrote: Different points; different posts. I see that you did it again, even after I gently pointed out the existence of multi-quote feature. You sir are an (fill in the blank). -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 (oops) - Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Soulkeeper;693008 Wrote: FYI, I only refer to what others have quoted; he's on my ignore list too. Unfortunately, the Ignore List doesn't work for email options. Could people stop feeding the troll, please? It's simple enough, surely. -- cunobelinus cunobelinus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693019 Wrote: You are entertaining! Who's selling CD rippers? Certainly not the journalists writing the article. I grant you, there seems to be no basis for saying bit-identical rips differ predictably, but you won't catch me throwing rocks or feeling Fearful, Uncertain or Doubtful as - apparently - it was intended. I don't understand why you don't just find it interesting. Please explain: who benefits from that little gem? The journalist made his money the moment he submitted the article, unless he has shares in the software company that make the recommended ripper. Which is free... 'Snake Oil' was an expensive 'remedy' sold as a cure-all by travelling salesmen without qualifications. Here - as with the discussion of WAV v FLAC - there is no snake oil, because nothing is for sale. In place of discussion we have a mess of sloppy thinking, unfounded rage and wildly mis-directed accusation. Don't leap to conclusions on the basis of half the evidence; don't reject field data as irrelevant; don't be quick to assume people are mental; don't get angry (it's only tech); don't assume you're omniscient; and keep your accusations on target. What field data? - are you seriously expecting us to take heed of some anecdotal claim that there are audible difference between 2 bit-perfect rips? Some of the people here have done/listened to more rips than you or the guys at TAS or even at Record companies could imagine... 100,000's of them! No-one here claims/believes there is a difference. So that's field data for you. The whole point of the SB streaming model is that bit-perfect rips to hard disk eliminate the computer and it network - ALL of the software and hardware - from the replay chain. Ethernet packets arrive in SB player - they could have come from anywhere. They only hold data... no magic... and more importantly nothing that can be damaged/changed without us noticing. Don't believe me? - try playing back a dts or HDCD stream... We can discuss endlessly what happens within the SB player and/or attached DAC (if any) but all discussion about what happens prior to the SB player begins and ends with having a bit-perfect rip (a mathematically trivially provable thing, unlike all audio snake oil). Please we've been discussing this for the last 7+ years! There's no difference if I send this post from my Laptop, PC or iPad. Same data... this is COMPUTING not AUDIO. Computing has very rigid rules. Audio has almost no rules. There's no AUDIO until inside the SB... As for WAV/FLAC, I see both Linn Naim will happily sell you and let you playback both. Good for them. The data content is identical. What happens inside the player is a whole different issue. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Phil Leigh;693025 Wrote: The whole point of the SB streaming model is that bit-perfect rips to hard disk eliminate the computer and it network - ALL of the software and hardware - from the replay chain. But eliminating the computer and the network also eliminates the potential to sell overpriced solutions to problems caused by the computer and the network. What is happening with articles like the TAS Computer Music series is a form of manufactured consent/FUD. Create a problem where no problem exists and then sell a solution to the (created) problem. People are no longer buying CD players, especially those mega-buck high end CD players, and the manufacturers need something to replace this lost revenue stream so the manufacturers along with their friends in the audio press are trying to create a way NOT to eliminate the computer and the network from the replay chain. To paraphase: There's gold in them computers and networks! -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 (oops) - Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
ralphpnj;693030 Wrote: People are no longer buying CD players, especially those mega-buck high end CD players, and the manufacturers need something to replace this lost revenue stream so the manufacturers along with their friends in the audio press are trying to create a way NOT to eliminate the computer and the network from the replay chain. That's the most plausible explanation of the behavior that I've seen so far. And I think they're doing themselves a big disfavor. They can fool some of the people all of the time, etc. But in the long run, very few people wants anything to do with liars and scoundrels. -- Soulkeeper 'Bug 17797: Updating wiki.slimdevices.com' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17797) Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Phil Leigh;693025 Wrote: What field data? - are you seriously expecting us to take heed of some anecdotal claim that there are audible difference between 2 bit-perfect rips? Some of the people here have done/listened to more rips than you or the guys at TAS or even at Record companies could imagine... 100,000's of them! No-one here claims/believes there is a difference. So that's field data for you. The whole point of the SB streaming model is that bit-perfect rips to hard disk eliminate the computer and it network - ALL of the software and hardware - from the replay chain. Ethernet packets arrive in SB player - they could have come from anywhere. They only hold data... no magic... and more importantly nothing that can be damaged/changed without us noticing. Don't believe me? - try playing back a dts or HDCD stream... We can discuss endlessly what happens within the SB player and/or attached DAC (if any) but all discussion about what happens prior to the SB player begins and ends with having a bit-perfect rip (a mathematically trivially provable thing, unlike all audio snake oil). Please we've been discussing this for the last 7+ years! There's no difference if I send this post from my Laptop, PC or iPad. Same data... this is COMPUTING not AUDIO. Computing has very rigid rules. Audio has almost no rules. There's no AUDIO until inside the SB... As for WAV/FLAC, I see both Linn Naim will happily sell you and let you playback both. Good for them. The data content is identical. What happens inside the player is a whole different issue. This rather misses the point: they weren't writing about the Squeezebox or even the streaming model in most cases. This is AUDIO with COMPUTING devices. Some of you forget this: anything you attach to a sensitive device influences it: you can't wave a wand and say that hideous power supply is now magically OK because it's a computer: the amplifier and DAC don't care about its ability to process numbers: they only care about getting a clean signal, without intermod distortion. Computers fail epically in this regard. Where the data comes from, and how it is ripped, is absolutely irrelevant to the WAV v FLAC question: that's (once again) all about changes within the local playback environment. It's hard to know whether forum members are deliberately turning a blind eye to this stuff for rhetorical effect, or have genuinely been conditioned to believe it's unimportant. -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693035 Wrote: This rather misses the point: they weren't writing about the Squeezebox or even the streaming model in most cases. This is AUDIO with COMPUTING devices. Some of you forget this: anything you attach to a sensitive device influences it: you can't wave a wand and say that hideous power supply is now magically OK because it's a computer: the amplifier and DAC don't care about its ability to process numbers: they only care about getting a clean signal, without intermod distortion. Computers fail epically in this regard. Where the data comes from, and how it is ripped, is absolutely irrelevant to the WAV v FLAC question: that's (once again) all about changes within the local playback environment. It's hard to know whether forum members are deliberately turning a blind eye to this stuff for rhetorical effect, or have genuinely been conditioned to believe it's unimportant. How are you defining 'AUDIO'? Because (optical transmission aside) all I'm seeing are signals in wire and traces... all susceptible to the same stuff. The computer or Squeezebox makes it 'digital' by a process of conversion. The transceiver converts it into voltage; another transceiver converts it into digital; another series of D-A chipset(s) convert it into voltage; various amplification stages occur - everything is suspectible; everything matters. The extreme position here - that even USB cables sound identical - is fortunately diminishing in the public mindset, simply falling before experience. Phil was referring to the assertion that 2 bit identical rips may sound different. You have written some general blather about audio which entirely ignores the point about the two files. Saying they will both sound the same played through any given set of equipment is not the same as saying that all equipment sounds the same. Look why don't you either try to follow a point coherently or leave the forum alone. I don't blame you for trying to pick up some business by showing off to the weak minded but it hasn't worked, so now you're just being irritating. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
SBT to Audio Aero Capitole whith uses swiss anagram tech bespoke filter. In addition to the audio, the display also tells you the sample rate its being fed which is nice :-) Ian -- UV101 Touch,Linear Low Noise PSU,2 Regs,2 direct Clocks,Caps.. SB3 Deep Blue screen - 2 Clocks, 3 Low noise regs, SEPC ZA caps, External PSU 80VA, Hexfred Mundorf SI, RA Signature PowerKord. Audio Aero Capitole MKII Spinner DAC, RESTEK fantasy (modded), Heavily modded SL-1200MKII,Denon DL-103L by Expert Stylus Co (Sapphire Cantilever custom Diamond stylus),Classe Processor, Focal 706v kimber rewire and Mundorf Supreme in crossovers, 8TC speaker cables, Kimber power cables NNUX mains filter UV101's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
adamdea;693038 Wrote: I don't blame you for trying to pick up some business by showing off to the weak minded You don't find it despicable and morally reprehensible? Oh well, I suppose we've all got different tolerance levels and value sets. :P -- Soulkeeper 'Bug 17797: Updating wiki.slimdevices.com' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17797) Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Soulkeeper;693041 Wrote: You don't find it despicable and morally reprehensible? Oh well, I suppose we've all got different tolerance levels and value sets. :PActually I deleted that bit, I will leave it to you to decide whether I thought I was being too mean or to fair. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
soulkeeper;693041 Wrote: you don't find it despicable and morally reprehensible? Oh well, i suppose we've all got different tolerance levels and value sets. :p -- DaveWr DaveWr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9331 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Over in another forum, somebody posted a link to part 3 of the TAS article. It is 'here' (http://www.mediafire.com/?pb6btm5s7iby88v). The claim about a WAV file having been converted to FLAC and back again sounding different from one that hasn't been converted reminds me of the old thermos joke - 'how does it know?' (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jokes/read/483546/) -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
andy_c;693047 Wrote: Over in another forum, somebody posted a link to part 3 of the TAS article. It is 'here' (http://www.mediafire.com/?pb6btm5s7iby88v). The claim about a WAV file having been converted to FLAC and back again sounding different from one that hasn't been converted reminds me of the old thermos joke - 'how does it know?' (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jokes/read/483546/) yeh I this is what I get hung-up on every time, all thier unknowledge hinge around this actually :) if they can't get why they are utterly and provable totally wrong and be good enough to admit that. they are dishonest or complete tools, sadly I think they are dishonest :-/ I happens to notice that almost all operations a computer do requiring it to copy data between registers to and from disc to ram to a different place in ram to L2 cache to buffer in NIC to hither and either ad naseum the core of computer technology is to perfectly copy data all the time blindingly fast does it work or not eh ? Likewise selling cryogenically treated hifi anything says all you need to know about a certain outfit. If you follow the logic of this TAS find all other file operations would change the file's sound for example backup copies and shudder changing any tag which actually rewrites the file it migth have been moved or copied several times on that operation :p -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
TAS vol 3 contains the following quote: Once a CD or download is converted to FLAC, the only way you can achieve the superior sound of WAV files is to go back to the original CD or source for a new rip or WAV download It will be noted that this is not hedged about in qualified terms- there is no suggestion that there is any doubt about the testing methodology. It implies a belief that there exists an distinct property of bit-identical files depending on their origin but not represented in the information in the file. It is not suggested that this in any way depends on the particular system used to pay back the data. Why should anyone be angry about someone writing this? Because the author is either a fool or a liar. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
adamdea;693042 Wrote: Actually I deleted that bit, I will leave it to you to decide whether I thought I was being too mean or to fair. A little bit of both, maybe? ;) 'You've got to be cruel to be kind.' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0l3QWUXVho) -- Soulkeeper 'Bug 17797: Updating wiki.slimdevices.com' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17797) Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;692925 Wrote: 00110101011101 is the same as 0 01 1 0 101 0 1 1 1 01 to a printer, but not to a DAC. Similarly, your amplifier will amplify voltage fluctuations a cash machine will ignore. Audio systems are inherently sensitive to timing and rail noise; IT systems less so - as a cursory look at a motherboard reveals. You are using arguments about one part of the chain that do not apply to another part of the chain. Big animal pictures: 1) Digital file. The system is designed to exactly preserve this. RF noise, issues on the power rails, etc. can not change this, without a catastrophic failure. The bits don't change unnoticed. 2) DAC. As soon as the data is converted into an analog signal, it again becomes susceptiable to noise/etc. 3) The interconnect between the system and the DAC. There may or may not be possibilities for error here. a) With well designed interconnects (computer circuits, networks, modern interconnects like DLink or HDMI with handshakes) again, error detection/correction is in place. What leaves one end arrives on the other end exactly the same, or not at all. b) Unfortunately, digital coax and optical interconnects are not well designed, there is the possibility of jitter. Trying to attribute problems of 2) or 3b) to the digital domains of 1) and 3a) are false. So while we can have great discussions about the attributes of various DACs, or just how much effect noise can have on 2) and 3b), we can not have real discussions on, for instance, the audible effects of WAV/FLAC conversions or RF noise changing the signal while on a network. eric -- EricBergan EricBergan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4746 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
adamdea;693066 Wrote: TAS vol 3 contains the following quote: Once a CD or download is converted to FLAC, the only way you can achieve the superior sound of WAV files is to go back to the original CD or source for a new rip or WAV download It will be noted that this is not hedged about in qualified terms- there is no suggestion that there is any doubt about the testing methodology. It implies a belief that there exists an distinct property of bit-identical files depending on their origin but not represented in the information in the file. That's like the 'water memory' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory) claims of homeopathy advocates. The homeopathy people even claimed the effect could be transmitted over phone lines :-). Sounds like a tweak from a well-known audiophile fraudster. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
andy_c;693072 Wrote: That's like the 'water memory' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory) claims of homeopathy advocates. The homeopathy people even claimed the effect could be transmitted over phone lines :-). Sounds like a tweak from a well-known audiophile fraudster.yes or the Sheldrake morphic resonance. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693035 Wrote: This rather misses the point: they weren't writing about the Squeezebox or even the streaming model in most cases. This is AUDIO with COMPUTING devices. Some of you forget this: anything you attach to a sensitive device influences it: you can't wave a wand and say that hideous power supply is now magically OK because it's a computer: the amplifier and DAC don't care about its ability to process numbers: they only care about getting a clean signal, without intermod distortion. Computers fail epically in this regard. Where the data comes from, and how it is ripped, is absolutely irrelevant to the WAV v FLAC question: that's (once again) all about changes within the local playback environment. It's hard to know whether forum members are deliberately turning a blind eye to this stuff for rhetorical effect, or have genuinely been conditioned to believe it's unimportant. How are you defining 'AUDIO'? Because (optical transmission aside) all I'm seeing are signals in wire and traces... all susceptible to the same stuff. The computer or Squeezebox makes it 'digital' by a process of conversion. The transceiver converts it into voltage; another transceiver converts it into digital; another series of D-A chipset(s) convert it into voltage; various amplification stages occur - everything is suspectible; everything matters. The extreme position here - that even USB cables sound identical - is fortunately diminishing in the public mindset, simply falling before experience. Let me try again. Audio is anything DURING/AFTER the conversion from pure computer data to analogue. Therefore it explicitly excludes the transportation of the data from Router/PC/NAS/SD card/Jacquard Loom card to the place where either: 1) the data is converted to an analogue signal for playback by an amp+speakers by a DAC or 2) the data is converted to an analogue signal with an embedded clock such as s/pdif or toslink for transmission to a DAC ... and please don't do me the disservice of explaining to me how a Squeezebox works! What you need to understand is that - assuming no galvanic route for RFI/interference/noise between the two - the SB player is as likely to be influenced by what is happening on the file server as it is to be influenced by your neighbours fridge or sunspots. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
adamdea;693066 Wrote: TAS vol 3 contains the following quote: Once a CD or download is converted to FLAC, the only way you can achieve the superior sound of WAV files is to go back to the original CD or source for a new rip or WAV download ... This is pure and simple 100% solid gold bull. Whichever charlatan wrote that should be ashamed of themselves and whoever employed them should be equally ashamed for depriving a village of an idiot. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
I've just worked through that TAS article. Not only do they claim that WAV-FLAC-WAV degrades the sound, but they also claim that the effect is cumulative! Utter fruitcakes. The final paragraph gives a clue to where they're coming from though. Dishonest, and complete tools, yes. But it's evidently all about their egos - heroic pioneers of computer audio! In the final Part 4 of this series, we reveal how easily-made tweaks and optimizations to our computers can result in nothing short of vast improvements in sound quality. And lastly, we quantify the remarkable degree of improvement that anyone can achieve by applying our best of recommended software, tweaks, and computer playback refinements to his own computer- based audio system. That's an article for SBGK surely. :) -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
I can hardly wait -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Can you have a class action against magazines.. -- DaveWr DaveWr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9331 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
DaveWr;693107 Wrote: Can you have a class action against magazines.. Sadly not for this, and there are bigger fish like homeopaths and Scientology and creationism ( intelligent design ) that should go up against the wall first. -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
EricBergan;693071 Wrote: You are using arguments about one part of the chain that do not apply to another part of the chain. Big animal pictures: 1) Digital file. The system is designed to exactly preserve this. RF noise, issues on the power rails, etc. can not change this, without a catastrophic failure. The bits don't change unnoticed. 2) DAC. As soon as the data is converted into an analog signal, it again becomes susceptiable to noise/etc. 3) The interconnect between the system and the DAC. There may or may not be possibilities for error here. a) With well designed interconnects (computer circuits, networks, modern interconnects like DLink or HDMI with handshakes) again, error detection/correction is in place. What leaves one end arrives on the other end exactly the same, or not at all. b) Unfortunately, digital coax and optical interconnects are not well designed, there is the possibility of jitter. Trying to attribute problems of 2) or 3b) to the digital domains of 1) and 3a) are false. So while we can have great discussions about the attributes of various DACs, or just how much effect noise can have on 2) and 3b), we can not have real discussions on, for instance, the audible effects of WAV/FLAC conversions or RF noise changing the signal while on a network. eric There are two quite different issues in play here: it's axiomatic that network transfer preserves bit value integrity. Hence internet works blah. Where and how data is processed in realtime, as part of a sensitive audio system, is a much more interesting place: everything about that 'local playback environment' seems to matter: including all I/O. So yes, if you're decoding FLAC on the fly, that creates a different playback environment to streaming WAV to PCM: it's perfectly legitimate to question whether that difference is audible. It's not something you can work out on paper: it requires experimentation, measurement, and careful listening, and it inevitably varies from system to system. The 'armchair theorist' is useless in this conversation: only experience counts. Some of the claims made by the TAS article, however, do seem to cross the line and imply something either revolutionary or crazy. Then again I can't see how that could be true might only indicate a lack of imagination, and doesn't allow for future variables. Is it not better to reserve judgment than look an idiot in hindsight? -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
As many of you know by now the SB Touch includes inexpensive electrolytic caps on its outputs. These caps are polarized, which means they are supposed to be run with a bias voltage across the cap, this bias actually makes the cap work properly. But in the case of the touch there is NO bias voltage, I've been trying to find out what this lack of bias voltage does to the sound. I finally tracked down some articles on the web where people have been looking into this. It turns out that without bias a polarized capacitor still behaves as a capacitor for small AC voltages, BUT the distortion through the capacitor goes up exponentially as the AC voltage increases. The upshot is that at the full output of the Touch (2V RMS) the unbiased cap has 22 times as much distortion as a film capacitor does. At lower output voltages this distortion goes down significantly, but even at its best it's still about 5-6 times as much as a film cap. This has some interesting ramifications for connections to a system. The conventional wisdom says that you shoulkd run the Touch at 100% volume all the time and use an analog domain volume control, thus maximizing the bits used and the signal to noise ratio. But that doesn't take into account this exponential distortion. A number of people have reported that they get much better sound running the Touch directly into a power amp and using the digital volume to bring the level down. This is usually attributed to preamps not being very transparent, but in this case it might be the significantly lower distortion when you run the Touch at a lower output level. Of course all the above is JUST for the analog outs, it has nothing to do with running the digital signal into an external DAC. So what to do about it? You can use an external DAC, that has been talked about a LOT. You can open up the Touch and bypass the output caps. Opening the Touch and performing surgery and getiing it back together is not an easy task, so don't attempt this unless you know what you are doing and are willing to risk destroying it. There are threads on this over in the DIY forum. You can also build an external bias circuit that biases the capacitors without having to open up the Touch. I'll try and get a thread on this started over in the DIY forum in a day or two. I'm kind of surprised that none of the companies that supply tweaks haven't marketed one of these yet. It very simple, a 6V source (AC supply or battery) and 2 resistors. You can put it in a box with connectors, but then you need an extra set of interconnects. You can have pictails sticking out of a box, you can take an interconnect and cut it in half and insert this etc. There are several ways you can do it. Its still not as good as getting rid of the capacitors all together, but its much lower distortion than what you get out of the box, and you don't have to do anything to the Touch itself. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
By way of getting at the core issues - because some of you guys have evidently thrown out the baby with the bath-water here - if your SB is connected via optical SPDIF to a DAC, do you believe it is possible for an upgraded power supply to make any difference? -- item_audio item_audio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=51315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;692976 Wrote: If you're serious about getting a digital front end to sound really good, in a costly system - like a good turntable or old-school high-end CD player - you inevitably have to deal with the issues I've outlined. Horses for courses. I disagree. My speakers/amp combined cost over £3000. I also have a vinyl front end which cost over £1500, years ago. Modest in the general scheme of things, I know, and my turntable was criticised in some hifi circles for sounding too digital, lacking bloom, whatever that means, but I find the sound from the SB into a good DAC comparable. I do not have to deal with your issues. item_audio;692984 Wrote: However, given that no-one stands to make a penny from the idea that rips or file formats differ, we can't even impute a commercial motive to the OP, who isn't even getting the right to reply. So that shouldn't annoy you. There might not be a direct commercial angle to the TAS stuff under discussion, it might be that the authors are simply insane (see the recent quote that the original quality of a wave file cannot be recovered from a losslessly-compressed file!). But more generally, this sort of nonsense does feed, precisely, the fear, uncertainty and doubt of the more afflicted audiophile, and as such creates the environment in which dishonest people can sell snake oil. In any case, it annoys me, in the same way that the previously mentioned homeopaths and creationists do, because I care about the truth, in all areas of life. item_audio;692984 Wrote: I've elsewhere argued that it's ethically indefensible for almost any interconnect to cost more than £500. But you offer for sale (I nearly wrote you sell, but that might be going too far) several cables over that price, including an cable, perhaps with unintentional irony called the illusion, at well over £1000. item_audio;692984 Wrote: What really rubs on us, I think, is knowing that the highest levels of sound reproduction are only available to the privileged few who can afford them. And you seem to want to make this situation worse by encouraging people to spend money on solutions to problems that you can't even properly define - the very definition of the FUD tactic. Might it be that putting a cheap computer in a shiny box and fiddling with the software before selling it for a relative fortune is much more profitable that actually manufacturing anything worthwhile? -- darrell darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Mnyb;693059 Wrote: yeh I this is what I get hung-up on every time, all thier unknowledge hinge around this actually :) if they can't get why they are utterly and provable totally wrong and be good enough to admit that. they are dishonest or complete tools, sadly I think they are dishonest :-/ I happens to notice that almost all operations a computer do requiring it to copy data between registers to and from disc to ram to a different place in ram to L2 cache to buffer in NIC to hither and either ad naseum the core of computer technology is to perfectly copy data all the time blindingly fast does it work or not eh ? Likewise selling cryogenically treated hifi anything says all you need to know about a certain outfit. If you follow the logic of this TAS find all other file operations would change the file's sound for example backup copies and shudder changing any tag which actually rewrites the file it migth have been moved or copied several times on that operation :p They could be dishonest AND complete tools: there's no reason that or has to be an XOR :). The last paragraph of yours is the main point I've been trying to hammer home. -- totoro sb touch - classdaudio sds-450 - audio physic tempo 4 + rel storm 3 rythmik f12se totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
chill;693105 Wrote: I've just worked through that TAS article. Not only do they claim that WAV-FLAC-WAV degrades the sound, but they also claim that the effect is cumulative! Utter fruitcakes. The final paragraph gives a clue to where they're coming from though. Dishonest, and complete tools, yes. But it's evidently all about their egos - heroic pioneers of computer audio! In the final Part 4 of this series, we reveal how easily-made tweaks and optimizations to our computers can result in nothing short of vast improvements in sound quality. And lastly, we quantify the remarkable degree of improvement that anyone can achieve by applying our best of recommended software, tweaks, and computer playback refinements to his own computer- based audio system. That's an article for SBGK surely. :) Phil Leigh;693106 Wrote: I can hardly wait There is no need to wait since Part Four of the Computer Music Series was published in TAS #221, March 2012. By the way the conclusion of this insane series was/is everything one could possibly hope for since it is filled with same misinformation and BS as the first three parts. By all rights this four part series is a groundbreaking work and will be studied for years to come by every snake oil salesman as a primer on how to use FUD to build a market for their worthless products. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 (oops) - Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
You might find the attachment helpful. +---+ |Filename: cap_distortion.pdf | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13127| +---+ -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693111 Wrote: Where and how data is processed in realtime, as part of a sensitive audio system, is a much more interesting place: everything about that 'local playback environment' seems to matter: including all I/O. Look, cards on the table here. I've got 30+ years experience directly developing device drivers for serial, parallel, disk, network, etc. I/O. Lots of different computer types and OS. I've worked side by side with the guys developing the prototype h/w below the chip level. I've lead large groups of people developing systems for financial houses among other markets, and so I have a pretty good understanding of large real time data issues, as well. I understand you have people who have told you it's all a black art on the digital side, but I think they are being taken out of context. eric -- EricBergan EricBergan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4746 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693113 Wrote: By way of getting at the core issues - because some of you guys have evidently thrown out the baby with the bath-water here - if your SB is connected via optical SPDIF to a DAC, do you believe it is possible for an upgraded power supply to make any difference? Oh that's right... TOSLINK is crap, right? Pity about all that optical crap that was used in the studios to record some of the music we love then isn't it? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693111 Wrote: There are two quite different issues in play here: it's axiomatic that network transfer preserves bit value integrity. Hence internet works blah. Where and how data is processed in realtime, as part of a sensitive audio system, is a much more interesting place: everything about that 'local playback environment' seems to matter: including all I/O. So yes, if you're decoding FLAC on the fly, that creates a different playback environment to streaming WAV to PCM: it's perfectly legitimate to question whether that difference is audible. It's not something you can work out on paper: it requires experimentation, measurement, and careful listening, and it inevitably varies from system to system. The 'armchair theorist' is useless in this conversation: only experience counts. Some of the claims made by the TAS article, however, do seem to cross the line and imply something either revolutionary or crazy. Then again I can't see how that could be true might only indicate a lack of imagination, and doesn't allow for future variables. Is it not better to reserve judgment than look an idiot in hindsight? That seems more like an on-the-money critique. Much more plausible than the wild conspiracy theories floating about like chaff. However, if we're talking about computer audio mods, there is much greater scope for improvement than perhaps you Squeeze-jockeys realise... it's absolutely possible to transform the way a computer sounds (as a transport only) by software and hardware mods - simply by lowering jitter and rail noise. For them to give away such information freely is irreprehensible, and undermines all criticism of 'peddling' anything. Yeah we know all about how PCs need lots of hardware and software tweaking to work nicely as s/pdif transports. THAT'S WHY WE DON'T USE THEM! We use SB's, so unless so can sell us something that changes the inside of the SB in terms of either software or hardware -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693111 Wrote: So yes, if you're decoding FLAC on the fly, that creates a different playback environment to streaming WAV to PCM: it's perfectly legitimate to question whether that difference is audible. It's not something you can work out on paper: it requires experimentation, measurement, and careful listening, and it inevitably varies from system to system. The 'armchair theorist' is useless in this conversation: only experience counts. Some of the claims made by the TAS article, however, do seem to cross the line and imply something either revolutionary or crazy. Then again I can't see how that could be true might only indicate a lack of imagination, and doesn't allow for future variables. Is it not better to reserve judgment than look an idiot in hindsight? There are an infinite number of unfounded hypotheses which we could consider, but it would be a complete waste of time. Of course, scientists sometimes need imagination to take a leap into the unknown, and discover something new about our universe. But let's not kid ourselves - the assertion that a binary data file is identical to another binary data file, but at the same time not capable of delivering the same information content, is not an issue at the frontiers of science, it is simple madness. Without some sort of quality control (not to say a sanity filter), we might as well all go looking for Russell's teapot. -- darrell darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693111 Wrote: Then again I can't see how that could be true might only indicate a lack of imagination, and doesn't allow for future variables. When it comes to copying files or converting from FLAC to WAV and back affecting SQ I don't say I can't see how that could be true. I say I know it is not true. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Powered Speakers Recommendations
cbemoore;357124 Wrote: I'm amazed no-one's mentioned Mackie monitors yet. I've got a set of HR624's, and they're absolutely fantastic. Alternatively, Genelec monitors are almost universally acclaimed, so they've got to be worth an audition Genelec's are unreal . -- jhonsber...@msn.com jhonsber...@msn.com's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4438 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54559 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
item_audio;693111 Wrote: Some of the claims made by the TAS article, however, do seem to cross the line and imply something either revolutionary or crazy. Then again I can't see how that could be true might only indicate a lack of imagination, and doesn't allow for future variables. Is it not better to reserve judgment than look an idiot in hindsight? Would you care to say which of their claims, in your opinion, have crossed this line, and why those particular claims stand out? Is it perhaps their claim that WAV-FLAC-WAV degrades the sound, or maybe that identical files produced by different rippers can sound different? After all, all of this claptrap is supported by the same level of 'evidence'. At what point do you personally start to question this 'evidence'? -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
darrell;693130 Wrote: Without some sort of quality control (not to say a sanity filter), we might as well all go looking for Russell's teapot. Good point, however Russell's teapot is very easy to find: the teapot is the difference between an original wav file and the wav file one gets after doing 10,000 wav to flac to wav conversions of the original wav file. The number 10,000 is very, very important since even doing 9,999 conversions will not produce the right teapot. Oh wait, you wrote teapot! Duh! I was thinking crackpot! Sorry. In the case of crackpot any number of wav flac wav conversions will produce a clearly visible and audible crackpot! -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 (oops) - Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
That article is for a properly biased electrolytic, an unbiased one is MUCH worse, which is the situation we find in the Touch. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
No, it is unbiased. See Figure 2.14. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
Interesting reading. Its a real shame that Wima stopped their MKS2 range with the 5mm lead spacing as these were tiny compared to most. I have a few sets of 22uF 16v that I've used specifically for DC blocking on outputs. I used 1 set on my SB3 before I went transport only. In the Touch, I've removed the said elco's and bridged the pads as I've been playing to see how good the stock DAC can sound with a few tweeks as well as running it through an external DAC. The concept of applying DC to bias the caps is interesting. I would assume that you would need 2 sets of caps with the DC applied between the 2 sets? This assumption is based on the fact that you wouldn't want to inject DC to the DAC and the same would apply to the amp inputs. The caps are polarised and so would need be set positive to the supply (assuming a positive voltage is applied). What about and DC blocking caps on the amp input. In theory if they are polorised the oposite way to those in the touch, you already have 2 sets of caps? Just thinking out loud! Interesting -- UV101 Touch,Linear Low Noise PSU,2 Regs,2 direct Clocks,Caps.. SB3 Deep Blue screen - 2 Clocks, 3 Low noise regs, SEPC ZA caps, External PSU 80VA, Hexfred Mundorf SI, RA Signature PowerKord. Audio Aero Capitole MKII Spinner DAC, RESTEK fantasy (modded), Heavily modded SL-1200MKII,Denon DL-103L by Expert Stylus Co (Sapphire Cantilever custom Diamond stylus),Classe Processor, Focal 706v kimber rewire and Mundorf Supreme in crossovers, 8TC speaker cables, Kimber power cables NNUX mains filter UV101's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Data Rate Kbps
If I run Squeezebox Server 7.5.1 I get on my Transporter 100% at 3000Kbps on the network test. If I run LMS I'm only getting 35% at 1500Kbps Whats exactly is going on here? -- mashley mashley's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36549 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93879 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
Would installing a couple of non polar's solve the problem? -- mashley mashley's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36549 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Crackling only through server?
I'm still on this, sorry I'm taking so long. I'm in the process of re-capping my amps. -- mashley mashley's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36549 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82558 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Best way of getting from SB to speakers
I would buy used you'd get a hell of a lot more amp for your money. I was going to mention a (digital) T-Amp possibly a Topping (I have one and it's very good) I also have AudioNote gear too so I come from a good point of reference when saying the Topping sounds good. The Ice amp one of the guys posted a link is also very good indeed, As for spending $700 plus on an Arcam FMJ or the likes, thats not what I'd do (I have an Alpha 7r by the way and a 10P) the Alpha 7 is a really superb amp, but I think a T-amp or Ice is certainly worth thinking long and hard about, the performance of these types of amps is simply amazing. Only a couple of days left on this was a $1600 amp in its day http://www.ebay.com/itm/NAIM-NAIT-5-INTEGRATED-WITH-REMOTE-CONTROL-/250986412403?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiershash=item3a6ff4b973 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proceed-Madrigal-Digital-Audio-Processor-PDP-2-DAC-Converter-Mark-Levinson-/160747445656?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item256d4b5d98 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bryston-4B-Power-Amplifier-200-Watts-Per-Channel-8ohms-/330693860310?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2hash=item4cfee3dbd6 See, get the idea! You can get something worth double or even triple your budget, that will far outperform anything in the NEW $700 category -- mashley mashley's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36549 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93776 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
darrell;693130 Wrote: There are an infinite number of unfounded hypotheses which we could consider, but it would be a complete waste of time. Of course, scientists sometimes need imagination to take a leap into the unknown, and discover something new about our universe. But let's not kid ourselves - the assertion that a binary data file is identical to another binary data file, but at the same time not capable of delivering the same information content, is not an issue at the frontiers of science, it is simple madness. Without some sort of quality control (not to say a sanity filter), we might as well all go looking for Russell's teapot. +1 I would include the alleged WAV FLAC difference here and only experience count is bs, well this difference is mostly reported in sigthed test anecdotes by audiophiles aka crackpots , do you want an more unreliable source of information if so I don't know where to find it. Take this question to hydrogen audio they have exhausted the subject thoroughly for us . So we can move on to do something else. completely different environment WAV/flac ? The PC literally do 1000's of things at the same time the exceptionally undemanding task of yet open another file of any kind makes a difference ?? The environment change more depending on where on the disk the file is or what weekday it is. The laws of probability is against that any serous effort is to be spent chasing the unicorn in this case. There is well established explanations for this ( and most other tweak crap ) available from the field of psychoacoustic one name for it is expectation bias or placebo or confirmation bias, this is the most likely explanation . And why is there no anecdotes that says that FLAC is better than WAV ;) the offered explanation model of environment could easily apply to this POW to ( this makes this explanation crap but anyway ). Because in audiophile cargo cult fairytale land compression is such a scary word and the ignorant can't se the difference between lossles and lossy so this myth gained momentum and as all audiophile myths it never goes away :-/ initially some audiofools thought FLAC was similar to mp3 , you still get questions like this on some fora, sigh. The typical audiophile knee jerk reaction that you have to try yourself for everything is pure nonse , you must filter out things for example I'm not very likely to try out any magic pebbles from machine dynamica anytime soon . Nor I'm I likely to try homeopathy when I'm unwell there really is no mechanism by which it could work. -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...
Mnyb;693167 Wrote: +1 I would include the alleged WAV FLAC difference here and only experience count is bs, well this difference is mostly reported in sigthed test anecdotes by audiophiles aka crackpots , do you want an more unreliable source of information if so I don't know where to find it. Here in the USA that unreliable of information is known as Fox News. Sorry but I just couldn't resist. Now back the normal audio discussion. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 (oops) - Touch 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
JohnSwenson;693112 Wrote: As many of you know by now the SB Touch includes inexpensive electrolytic caps on its outputs. These caps are polarized, which means they are supposed to be run with a bias voltage across the cap, this bias actually makes the cap work properly. But in the case of the touch there is NO bias voltage, I've been trying to find out what this lack of bias voltage does to the sound. I finally tracked down some articles on the web where people have been looking into this. It turns out that without bias a polarized capacitor still behaves as a capacitor for small AC voltages, BUT the distortion through the capacitor goes up exponentially as the AC voltage increases. The upshot is that at the full output of the Touch (2V RMS) the unbiased cap has 22 times as much distortion as a film capacitor does. At lower output voltages this distortion goes down significantly, but even at its best it's still about 5-6 times as much as a film cap. This has some interesting ramifications for connections to a system. The conventional wisdom says that you shoulkd run the Touch at 100% volume all the time and use an analog domain volume control, thus maximizing the bits used and the signal to noise ratio. But that doesn't take into account this exponential distortion. A number of people have reported that they get much better sound running the Touch directly into a power amp and using the digital volume to bring the level down. This is usually attributed to preamps not being very transparent, but in this case it might be the significantly lower distortion when you run the Touch at a lower output level. Of course all the above is JUST for the analog outs, it has nothing to do with running the digital signal into an external DAC. So what to do about it? You can use an external DAC, that has been talked about a LOT. You can open up the Touch and bypass the output caps. Opening the Touch and performing surgery and getiing it back together is not an easy task, so don't attempt this unless you know what you are doing and are willing to risk destroying it. There are threads on this over in the DIY forum. You can also build an external bias circuit that biases the capacitors without having to open up the Touch. I'll try and get a thread on this started over in the DIY forum in a day or two. I'm kind of surprised that none of the companies that supply tweaks haven't marketed one of these yet. It very simple, a 6V source (AC supply or battery) and 2 resistors. You can put it in a box with connectors, but then you need an extra set of interconnects. You can have pictails sticking out of a box, you can take an interconnect and cut it in half and insert this etc. There are several ways you can do it. Its still not as good as getting rid of the capacitors all together, but its much lower distortion than what you get out of the box, and you don't have to do anything to the Touch itself. John S. 22 times ! as measured separately or -in this actual application- ? Touch has 0.0014% thd acording to stereophile so will it be 0.0014%/22 after for example removing the caps ? If I used the analog out I would remove them , so I'm fairly confident in your original assessment on how they work (or rather don't work ) plausible enough for me for an almost free mod and btw great initiative to actually have solution that can make people keep the warranty on the unit . -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
Mnyb;693176 Wrote: 22 times ! as measured separately or -in this actual application- ? I think he's referring to a Cyril Bateman article in which Bateman measured the THD of an electrolytic cap at about 22x that of a low-distortion film cap. I have the Bateman articles, which he used to provide for free at his web site, but that web site is gone now - it was on geocities. I've provided an alternate link 'here' (www.diy-audio-engineering.org/web_dl/papers/cap_dist.zip). The thing is, this distortion was measured with 1VRMS across the cap. But this is a coupling application, and if the cap is chosen to be large enough, the AC voltage across it is negligible. That's why the Douglas Self excerpt I posted shows the distortion approaching zero as the cap value is increased. Bateman did find that, for polar electrolytic caps, a reduction of distortion could be had by DC biasing. But that technique is wasteful. The absolute level of the second harmonic distortion component is proportional to the square of the amplitude of the AC voltage across the cap, while the absolute value of the third harmonic is proportional to the amplitude cubed of the AC voltage component across the cap. So decreasing that amplitude gives great benefits. I've attached a plot of that relationship from Bateman's articles. That's the relationship that Self is taking advantage of by limiting the AC voltage component across the cap to tens of mV. Bateman also found that non-polar electrolytics had lower distortion than polar ones, so they are a good choice. +---+ |Filename: polar_cap.jpg| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13128| +---+ -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
andy_c;693179 Wrote: I think he's referring to a Cyril Bateman article in which Bateman measured the THD of an electrolytic cap at about 22x that of a low-distortion film cap. I have the Bateman articles, which he used to provide for free at his web site, but that web site is gone now - it was on geocities. I've provided an alternate link 'here' (www.diy-audio-engineering.org/web_dl/papers/cap_dist.zip). The thing is, this distortion was measured with 1VRMS across the cap. But this is a coupling application, and if the cap is chosen to be large enough, the AC voltage across it is negligible. That's why the Douglas Self excerpt I posted shows the distortion approaching zero as the cap value is increased. Bateman did find that, for polar electrolytic caps, a reduction of distortion could be had by DC biasing. But that technique is wasteful. The absolute level of the second harmonic distortion component is proportional to the square of the amplitude of the AC voltage across the cap, while the absolute value of the third harmonic is proportional to the amplitude cubed of the AC voltage component across the cap. So decreasing that amplitude gives great benefits. I've attached a plot of that relationship from Bateman's articles. That's the relationship that Self is taking advantage of by limiting the AC voltage component across the cap to tens of mV. Bateman also found that non-polar electrolytics had lower distortion than polar ones, so they are a good choice. Cool I'm not that kind of engineer so I can't really have a well grounded opinion on circuit specifics just thought the number was a bit out of context now you provided some more context great :) now I understand more. Any engineered opinion on how it applies to Touchs output stage , but you may need schematics to have an opinion on that ? -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
Mnyb;693180 Wrote: Any engineered opinion on how it applies to Touchs output stage , but you may need schematics to have an opinion on that ? I'm not familiar with the circuit details of the Touch. I have an SB2 going into a Benchmark DAC. I must also mention this, about the audiophile double standard regarding harmonic distortion. If a cap has distortion levels in the ppm range, it seems to cause all kinds of hand-wringing. Yet for tube power amps with upwards of 1 percent THD, the distortion is routinely dismissed as benign. So, which is it? :-) -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
andy_c;693179 Wrote: Bateman also found that non-polar electrolytics had lower distortion than polar ones, so they are a good choice. I would suggest that although they are a better choice they are still not optimal. I never use electrolytic caps in the signal path. Lots of equipment use elcos in their output or input stage for this purpose. I always replace with film. In some of my better equipment I use Mundorf Supreme. Ampohm were exceptional vfm before they went out of business (although I believe they are being produced again now). Lots of the better philips players used nichicon bi-polar elcos and Marantz used elna silmic for this job and can again be improved upon by using film caps. I spent some time looking at DC servo circuits to null the DC offset on an output. This would mean you don't need any cap at all, I also used an adjustable constant current source tied to the output of a dac to trim dc offset to nil and remove the caps. What John is suggesting looks interesting. As suggested it would potentially mean you didn't need to open the sb. One question I do have, is would a biased cap actually sound any better than an elco bp. I already suggested that I use film or no cap where possible and I wonder where in the performance table a biased STD elco might fit? -- UV101 Touch,Linear Low Noise PSU,2 Regs,2 direct Clocks,Caps.. SB3 Deep Blue screen - 2 Clocks, 3 Low noise regs, SEPC ZA caps, External PSU 80VA, Hexfred Mundorf SI, RA Signature PowerKord. Audio Aero Capitole MKII Spinner DAC, RESTEK fantasy (modded), Heavily modded SL-1200MKII,Denon DL-103L by Expert Stylus Co (Sapphire Cantilever custom Diamond stylus),Classe Processor, Focal 706v kimber rewire and Mundorf Supreme in crossovers, 8TC speaker cables, Kimber power cables NNUX mains filter UV101's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch output caps
this stuff is a non issue. IMO, it feeds the audiophile nervosa disease...when there are much more sensible things to focus on(ie acoustic treatment for the room, speaker positioning, etc) distortion figures as low as measured in stereophile simply are not enough to worry about and id venture to say below the level of audibility.. -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(stock)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93875 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
