Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cleaning Vinyl
cliveb wrote: > Interesting. Ultrasonic cleaning is used in a variety of other > scenarios, so I guess it could work very well on LPs. > I do wonder whether ultrasonics are going to be able to shift dried on > gunge (especially using only distilled water) but I'm certainly not > going to attempt to judge without any first hand experience. > > I note that towards the end of the page they offer bottles of surfactant > to "improve the cleaning even more". > Maybe they discovered that pure water isn't enough in some cases?My home brew > cleaning solution is 3/4 distilled water, 1/4 isopropyl alcohol and a drop or two of Kodak Photo flow. Cheap and effective for my VPI Cyclone machine. Sent from my SM-G996W using Tapatalk doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=115093 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cleaning Vinyl
The Spin-Clean record bath is arguably the best bang for the buck. https://spinclean.com/ And distilled water is cheap... Doesn't leave white spots. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=115093 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Best Streaming Hardware For Audiophile and Hi Res File Support
ralphpnj wrote: > It's threads like this that make me really miss arnyk. In other words, > it appears that it's now safe to drink the kool-aid.Have you run out of audio > journalists to stalk? Or are you right now sitting in a car outside John Atkinson's place with a long lens SLR in your lap? doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=109312 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
@Golden Earring Your writing style is a breath of fresh air. Good work. Could you please post some rationalization regarding the Julius caesar atoms /breath in & out scenario? 50% seems rather high. Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Our Music Listening... in 10 years.
Julf wrote: > > > So forget optical. Forget audio cables (even Belkin was displaying their > cat5/6/7 cabling systems). It will all be over IP, and using common > protocols (instead of the current multitude of proprietary solution), > but all a bit too oriented towards "lifestyle". So like Squeezebox then. Talk about ahead of its time. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106933 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So they recommend Cat8 ethernet cables now!?
drmatt wrote: > So bipolar Arny is back. It's just not allowed to hold a view that > disagrees with yours, is it? > > Do you have any successful interpersonal relationships in your life? > Seems likely the only one is with your shrink. > > The "dr" is not an affectation, it is my title. So grow up a bit old > man. Life is so much calmer with that bitter, sad little man on ignore. If only folks would stop quoting him... Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106593 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Chips
If Edward goes away you'll have no one to ridicule. Be careful what you wish for. Hey - how come ralphy-boy hasn't chipped in about the evil audiophile press yet? doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106575 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New study on vinyl buyers
Julf wrote: > I have absolutely no problem with whatever listening preferences people > have, and whatever equipment choices they make. I do have an issue with > people who try to rationalize and defend their choices with > pseudoscience and false claims. > Nobody was making any false claims. You simply linked to an article that utterly misconstrued a survey in a way that validated your narrow worldview. Julf wrote: > > My whole point was about how the audiophile press and websites are very > quick to jump on (and feel very smug and self satisfied with) anything > that supports their narrow world view (the erroneous conclusions of the > research into audibility of "high res" formats is a good example), but > ignore anything that goes against it. I guess you missed the > meta-argument and went into "defensive ad-hominem attack" mode about the > specific example. There was nothing even remotely relevant to the -audiophile- mindset in that article. "Meta-argument?" Please. Your entire purpose here in this sub-forum is to belittle and demean anyone who doesn't think like you and your little group of sad-sack pseudo-objectivists. Normally I give your blatherings a wide berth, coming to this forum to see what's new in the wonderful world of LMS, help what little I can, and move on. I do that by perusing the unread section in Tapatalk, and I can usually spot your (I include others like Arny and Ralphy-baby in this pronoun) bleatings quite easily and thus steer clear. However this time you caught me - I love vinyl. Listened to it, and bought it for the last 35 years. I always hated the physical CD medium - the feel of the discs, their cases, the grinding sound of an opening CD player door. The small artwork. The brittle hinges on the cases. I also prefer the sound of LPs (which you'll tell us all now is far inferior to digital in 3... 2... 1...). Never was I happier than when CDs started phasing out, replaced by files. The resurgence of LPs also pleases me, as now I have a larger selection from which to choose. So I clicked, and clicked through - more fool me. So there's negative connotations to my age? To the fact that I have disposable income with which to buy LPs? That I love music? That I enjoy those rare times when my wife takes our child on an overnighter and I can crank the system for an evening? That's how you think? It's a sad little crusade you've got yourself here. You're saving the world from the big, bad audio press? Hoo, boy! You honestly think that's a worthy cause on which to hang your hat? Are you sure it's not you who's the lonely one? It sure seems like you've got nothing else to do. Like I said, it's a pathetic cause you're girl-slapping away at here. I'd wager that you've got a large portion of your self-worth tied up in convincing everyone who doesn't care that audiophiles are fools, cable manufacturers are satan incarnate, and magazine reviewers are working Machiavellian evil, so I'll let you have the last word here - I've got better things to do. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New study on vinyl buyers
The OP relishes the ridicule of those whose listening preferences and equipment choices do not mesh with his narrow world view. So it's no surprise that the click bait headline was instantly appealing and left him feeling smug and self satisfied. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New study on vinyl buyers
The header definitely is at odds with the article. If you prefer being alone, how can you be lonely? It's an inherently contradictory concept. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New study on vinyl buyers
Do you read beyond the click-bait heading? Or is that too much to expect? doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105982 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
philippe_44 wrote: > In the audiophile forum of LMS, where I hope people are usually > reasonnable, what would be your advice for a good pair of speakers and a > tube amplifier (I've always wanted to try one). Nothing extra fancy, but > a "reasonnable" budget. Please no fights here, my question is candide, > no hidden intention to create another flame war. > > Thank you So what did you decide, Philippe? I'm sure that this thread has been an invaluable resource. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
I simply like the tube sound. Ok, so there's a metric shit-ton of high tech, better-than-you-can-hear stuff in an avr, and a tube amp is point-to-point soldered garbage. In 10 years the tube amp will be worth close to its original value, while the avr will be worth pennies on the dollar. Isn't that what we were talking about? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
bonze wrote: > This might be a good time to remind everyone to remember to bring their > soldering iron guards to forthcoming meetings. > There have been a couple of 'incidents' involving stray hot irons and > Arnys wood-panelling :) Please tell me there's a shrine with a late 70s Sansui amp at the centre... doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
jh901 wrote: > Can you support your claim that "good" AVRs and modern, well regarded > tube power amps deliver the same audible experience and hold value > equally well? That cheery little chap is on my ignore list, so I don't see his posts. But your quote revealed one. Thanks for nothing! Anyway, a simple way to contrast the relative values is to nip over to Audiogon and check how much a 10-year-old top-of-the-line AVR sells for, versus a 10-year-old tube amp. Old AVRs are essentially worthless. They depreciate like computers. Makes sense, really - who wants an AVR that only switches S-video signals? On the other hand, a Dynaco Stereo 70 is worth more now than it was when new (not adjusted for inflation, of course). In 1993 or so, I bought a used Sonic Frontiers SFS-40 amp for (IIRC) $1000. Long out of production, they still sell for that now. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Archimago wrote: > A few points I need to make. First, there is no "gang". Although a > number of "objectivists" are gathered here, as far as I am aware, it's > not like we chat behind the scenes about the postings and somehow have a > common view about everything! Well, if there is some kind of weekly > -Objectivists Anonymous- meeting, I guess I have not been invited :-). > > Second. If you read my blog, what stuff do you consider "low-brow > pawn-shop gear" that I'm recommending? Of course if you consider the > Squeezebox Touch in this category, I guess you're way off course in > terms of a forum to chat about such things! My history with audio gear > has been one of my toys getting more expensive but I do try to be > reasonable because I am not after the Burmester gold fascia... Just to > give you a snapshot of my journey in this hobby, I started with my dad's > old hand-me-down Sony receiver, JVC CD player, Sansui speakers from the > early 80's. Then went with Tannoy bookshelves + sub in the late 90's > when I started getting a pay cheque. Then in the early 2000's, a good > sounding Denon 3802 receiver with Paradigm Studio 80v3 full height > speakers. Into 2010, I played with my dad's Onix Melody SP3 tube amp > (which I bought for him a few years earlier mentioned in the "Questions > on equipment" thread), along with some vintage Quad amps. Along the way > I've had the Sony SCD-1 SACD player, 555ES, a H/K HDCD player. Once I > stumbled on the SB3, the road ended with me and expensive disk spinners > (actually I still have an inexpensive Sony CE775 CD/SACD for backup - > sounds great and handles multichannel SACDs). Generations of > home-assembled computer music servers have come and gone since 2003. The > Transporter came in 2008. Sennheiser HD800 headphones in 2011. And in > 2013, the Emotiva XSP-1 preamp, XPA-1L dual monoblocks, TEAC UD-501 DAC, > Paradigm Signature S8v3 speakers + SUB 1, DRC playback and other stuff > you see on my blog today... Clearly not terrifyingly expensive in this > hobby but I think my system can take on many other more expensive stuff > I've heard. > > I've been very clear with my philosophy on audio gear. I want gear > capable of -accuracy-. Euphonic distortion is not my thing (tubes can > sound great but even you have identified potential rolled off highs and > lows, power limitations, clearly measurable harmonic distortion, etc.). > I enjoy LPs as collector items. I don't want equipment that imparts > "musicality" at the expense of precision and accuracy. As a result, I > focus on a combination of objective performance (for verification of > accuracy) and of course subjective evaluation to make sure I personally > like the sound, or at least am not hearing anything objectionable. This > is how I tend to write about the gear - objective performance first, > then subjective; obviously the opposite of magazines like -Stereophile > -where the primacy is on subjective descriptions. So long as the level > of performance is there, if it costs less, so be it! There are always > places for money to go into such as the mortgage, vacation, or kids' > education! What do I care if there's an extra 0 or 00 tagged to the end > if the objective of transparency is achieved? > > > > Let's split this discussion into DIGITAL and ANALOGUE. -I believe that > the abilities of the human ear/mind is inferior to the quality of > reasonably priced DIGITAL gear these days.- Good digital equipment > irrespective of the number of 0's at the end of the price tag can > "transparently" reproduce what's in the data. While I don't know > anything about Stereo Review - perhaps before my time so I would love to > read about these tests if anyone has a link, it's not difficult to test > the quality of DACs and players these days and demonstrate the excellent > level of resolution even with inexpensive chi-fi eBay DACs (not that I > necessarily endorse any specific equipment). This is what happens with > technological advancement. In the early 2000's, it might have cost $1000 > for a DAC that can accurately reproduce the LSB of a 16-bit PCM stream. > Now it's easily within the grasp of $200 gear. As per my philosophy of > accuracy, this means that what I desire as a threshold of "good enough > quality" is actually deflating in cost as time goes on. This is > congruent with technology in general - cell phones do more for cheaper, > computers faster for less, etc... No reason therefore in my mind arguing > for stratospheric priced digital audio gear unless one is after those > "non-utilitarian functions" I spoke of (which I have no issue with!). > And IMO definitely no reason to spend good money chasing after > ridiculously expensive cables; especially the "digital" variety. > > As for the ANALOGUE side, especially for speakers, this is where I feel > ABX really is essential. Notice I rarely get into the debates on ABX and > listening test design... It's Arny's baby :-). Like testing medications, > eve
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
RonM wrote: > What we have here is delusion -- delusion that is understood to be such > by the deluded, but still maintained. Self conscious delusion if you > will. > > It seems to be maintained primarily by a certain amount of cognitive > dissonance -- "I've invested all this money and time in addressing my > audiophile interests, so when I encounter evidence that suggests that > money and time has been sent into a black hole, I must absolutely refuse > to consider demonstrable reality, even when I know the reality is > real". > > I'm not an engineer or an audio scientist. But I AM a psychologist > (capital P, Ph.D., research, conferences), and very familiar with the > way in which belief can skew experience, and with the phenomena of cults > and "true belief". Because felt experience is fundamentally subjective, > we need to develop methods for achieving objectivity. Properly > controlled research (which often makes use of gold standard double blind > methods) is one way of doing so, as has been pointed out by many, at > length. > > The fact that there are some, such as the poster quoted above, who > persist in beliefs that at some level they know can't be true is a sad > reflection of broader social reality. Climate change denial, anyone? > > Of course, on both the bigger (societal) and smaller (audiophile) issues > it becomes necessary for these poor souls to imagine faults in the > objective data, such as "ABX masks differences". Or "climate change > theory is a radical conspiracy". Pretty feeble. > > R. I've got a number of problems with your post. First off - on a purely consumer level, we all do experience cognitive dissonance to a degree. But taking pride in a posession is part of human nature. My expensive chefs' knife cuts better and is more of a pleasure to use. I feel better driving my car after it's waxed. I have more confidence going into a meeting wearing a well-made suit. And when I hook my stereo up with high-end cables, it looks better, and I enjoy listening to music more. Go back and read my post again - at no point did I say that expensive cables sound better. Only that I like having them in my system, and that my system SEEMS to sound better. Just like wearing a nice suit makes me feel more confident. The suit does nothing, but my perception of the suit is what counts. But for you to conflate that concept into promoting pseudoscience and denying scientific method is a cheap, shitty move. If your PhD was worth the paper it was written on, you'd refrain from comparing those two concepts - "ABX masks differences and climate change theory is a radical conspiracy". Simply by doing that, you reduce your entire argument into worthlessness. You say that belief can skew experience -- sure it can. But we have evolved by trusting our experience, and that experience can also engender belief. I don't like the word "belief" because of the negative connotations it's picked up from religion - belief equals faith. But I can take my experience - a lifetime of listening to different amplifiers and hearing substantial differences between them -- and end up with the belief, or knowledge, or confidence, that often they sound different from each other. That's not cognitive dissonance. I've also participated in several ABX tests, and know just how confusing they are. I also know how agenda-driven some of these so-called objectivists are. I say go for it - take an ABX test and try to pick out whether you can hear the difference between 128kb MP3s and 16bit wav files. My guess is that without some training you'll have difficulties. Then spend a day listening to MP3s and then another day listening to the same music in wav format. Heck, do the second part blind! I'd wager that you'll enjoy the wav files much more, even if you can't pick them out in the ABX test. Bah! I've already spent more time than I wanted on this. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
ralphpnj wrote: > Although it hasn't been mentioned as yet but since you state that you > are doing this for own enlightenment I suggest that you fully explore > the used equipment market such as ebay and audiogon. Should it turn out > that tube sound is not for you then hopefully you can then resell the > equipment without taking a big monetary hit. One of the great things > about audiophiles is that so many of them are always chasing this year's > "ultimate" whatever that lots of last year's "ultimate" whatevers are > always showing up on the used market. Very true. However, tube gear seems to hold its value better than solid state. Probably due to the fact that the bog-standard EL34 pentode circuit matured 50+ years ago, and the value is all in the transformers. A 20 year old tube amp is going to hold more of its original value than is a 20 year old SS amp. Kinda like quartz watches vs automatics (the parallel there holds to several levels). Pretty much any cheap tube integrated is a Dynaco Stereo 70 at its core, and ST70s sell for more today than when they were new. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Backl to Pilippe's original point - an inexpensive tube integrated amp can be an exceptionally nice audio diversion. It's extremely nice at the end of a long day to sit back with the lights out and watch the tubes glowing happily away. The sound is generally softer, more relaxed, more involving. True the bass lacks a bit of definition and the top end is rolled off, but through the middle it can be very involving and rich. To cut back to the food analogy, it's pleasant to eat very rich food. You probably don't want to eat it every day, but once in a while, you should treat yourself. As someone else said, buy used and you should be able to get something decent for <$750. Just make sure the chassis is chromed - it sounds way better -- as chrome has been proven to cut down on that pesky upper-midrange glare. It also reflects the tube's light and looks really nice at night. Jason edit: Whoops - wrong thread! doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Backl to Pilippe's original point - an inexpensive tube integrated amp can be an exceptionally nice audio diversion. It's extremely nice at the end of a long day to sit back with the lights out and watch the tubes glowing happily away. The sound is generally softer, more relaxed, more involving. True the bass lacks a bit of definition and the top end is rolled off, but through the middle it can be very involving and rich. To cut back to the food analogy, it's pleasant to eat very rich food. You probably don't want to eat it every day, but once in a while, you should treat yourself. As someone else said, buy used and you should be able to get something decent for <$750. Just make sure the chassis is chromed - it sounds way better -- as chrome has been proven to cut down on that pesky upper-midrange glare. It also reflects the tube's light and looks really nice at night. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Archimago wrote: > But Jason, although Raph has already answered quite well already, I > actually don't see what's wrong with owning whatever one desires... Give > that this is the "audiophile" forum, many of the objectivists have main > systems in the 5-figures because there's nothing wrong with enjoying > luxury items for what they are whether we believe the "utilitarian > function" (ie. sound quality) improves or not. I could buy a Burmester > front end, enjoy the nice gold color, and show off the bling to my > audiophile friends when they come over without necessarily claiming that > the Burmester beats an Oppo in sound quality. > > Material quality, workmanship, reliability, socioeconomic status symbol, > esthetic appeal are all part of the price of luxury items and anyone of > us can justify the "value" of something we buy without claims of sound > quality... > > The "issue" with objectivists arises with claims of "remarkable" > differences in sound quality where there is no evidence or rationale. No buts, Arch. Of course, what you've stated is a given, and backs up Ralphy-boy's explanation as to why he still owns the Simaudio stuff. Fair is fair. However, your gang is forever harping about how audiophile stuff specifically, totally doesn't at all sound any better than low-brow pawn-shop gear. That's your thing right? Right? The audiophile stuff is a blatant rip-off because it DOESN'T SOUND ANY BETTER than gear missing one or even two zeros off the end. And my thing -- what I believe is the nut of the audiophile mistrust of ABX testing -- is that switching back and forth in real time MASKS the types of differences that distinguish high-end gear. That's why those audiophiles were so wamboozled by that Stereo Review test way back when and couldn't distinguish between (I forget the exact gear) Mark Levinson monos, tube OTL amps, and a mass-market receiver. By all accounts, they SHOULD have been able to do so - especially given that there were those nasty, distorting tube amps in the mix. I say they couldn't because a) ABX masks the type of differences that this gear makes and b) ABX is really, really hard to get the hang of, and the only people who care to master it are those with an agenda, who will then happily generate null results in tests (ok, that's a slanderous assumption on my part, but I'm not above the occasional cheap shot) So here's a chance for Ralphy-baby to put his money where his mouth is and turn the tables. Listen to a cheap receiver for a month or so, sighted, and then come back and report if after the month is over, whether he's just as happy with the cheaper component. Realistically, in your worldview, he should be just as happy. Shouldn't he? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
ralphpnj wrote: > Another fair question. My feelings on the analog side of things, and > power amps do fall on the analog side of things, are much less > "dogmatic' than they are on the digital side of things and so, as you > said, there are many factors which need to be accounted for when running > an ABX test on amplier/speaker combinations. But I would venture a guess > that the ABX test you outlined above would yield null results, i.e. I > would not be able to hear any difference. > > Why do you ask? Do you have a Yamaha receiver and some cash to trade for > my Sim Audio gear? Just be aware that the remote for the Sim Audio > preamp is very substantial and can be classified as a deadly weapon in > several US states. No trades, I'm chock-full of equipment at this end. What I was thinking was to do a sort of Trading Places thing - have you listen to a cheap receiver for a month or so, and see if -- at the end of it -- you still feel that they sound identical. The neat part about this sighted test is that there's no way in hell you'd have any sort of expectation bias for any result other than the same null you'd get from that ABX test. Reason being, I've found over the years that changes of gear don't immediately give me the results that I'd think they would. A new component that I expect to like very much impresses in the very short term (expectation bias, I guess), but over the long haul turns out to be very disappointing. The symptom of that disappointment is that I find myself listening to less and less music. I know, you -scientists- say that sighted tests are bullshit. However you'd be on guard for the type of confounds that sucker in us gullible audiophiles, right? So at the end of the month, you'd undoubtedly be as happy listening through that receiver as you ever were using the Simaudio, right? Don't you think this would be fun? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
ralphpnj wrote: > Fair question, which I've answered before: the Sim Audio equipment was > purchased used over 10 years ago when I was in my audiophile phase. The > Sim Audio equipment is well engineered and built and has the full > support of the manufacturer. Since I already own the equipment and it > sounds quite good I see no good reason to sell it OR upgrade it. Besides > the current upward price spiral of "audiophile" equipment means what I > paid for the Sim Audio equipment ten years ago would today barely pay of > the shipping carton :) Ok then. Serious question - do you think you could tell the difference in a blind ABX test between the Simaudio gear and - oh I don't know - a Yamaha receiver? Given that the receiver has enough power to drive your speakers, and given that the receiver is adequate to drive the load? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
ralphpnj wrote: > I got it: someone likes listening to music played back on a well > designed, sensibly engineered, properly manufactured and cost effective > audio system without having swallowed hook, line and sinker all those > commonly held but scientifically unsound and unproven audiophile > beliefs. > > I think that sums things up nicely. Hey Ralphy-baby, sez down there in your sig line that you use a Simaudio pre-power combo. That's mighty high-rent gear you've got there! Could you fill us in on how come you're using something so expensive and audiophile-like when good old ABX testing would likely PROVE that a ghetto Yamaha receiver would sound just as good? C'mon, man - think! You could sell that snake-oil audiophile nonsense and use the money for surveillance gear so you could stake out John Atkinson's place. He's fooling audiophiles -as we speak-, and YOU could be the one to get the low-down for CNN. Your Pulitzer awaits! Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question on equipment
SuperQ wrote: > With a room in the 40m2 size, maybe something like this would suit you: > > http://www.peachtreeaudio.com/all-products/amplifiers-dac.html > > It's a solid-state amp, but has an optional tube buffer to add a bit of > the "tube sound" analog noise that people like. > > For your room size, the 65w model is probably fine, but maybe the 125w > model would be better if you are thinking about putting it in a larger > room some day. > > The nice thing about the peachtree is also it comes with a reasonable > DAC built-in. I had one of those. The tube is a buffer only. On mine you could switch it in and out. Made no difference whatsoever. Good sounding amp and dac though. I recently bought a Yaqin chi-fi integrated el34 stereo amp.got it used for $600 Canadian. I'm using it in a second system and it's great. Slightly warm sounding but not over the top. Exactly what I was looking for. Jason. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Julf wrote: > Because some of us are. Even more of us are engineers. Engineering is > applied science - that is what audio is. > > > > But that is exactly what "subjectivists" seem to miss - we have done > exactly that. There are pretty well understood and verified scientific > explanations as to why people hear a difference, but the science is > perceptional science and psychology. > > > > "The scientific method is an ongoing process, which usually begins with > observations about the natural world. Human beings are naturally > inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see > or hear and often develop ideas (hypotheses) about why things are the > way they are. The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested > in various ways, including making further observations about nature. In > general, the strongest tests of hypotheses come from carefully > controlled and replicated experiments that gather empirical data. > Depending on how well the tests match the predictions, the original > hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even > rejection. If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported a > general theory may be developed. > > Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, > identifiable features are frequently shared in common between them. The > overall process of the scientific method involves making conjectures > (hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, > and then carrying out experiments based on those predictions. A > hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while > formulating the question. The hypothesis might be very specific or it > might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting > experiments. Under modern interpretations, a scientific hypothesis must > be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible > outcome of an experiment that conflicts with predictions deduced from > the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully > tested. > > The purpose of an experiment is to determine whether observations agree > with or conflict with the predictions derived from a hypothesis.[8] > Experiments can take place in a college lab, on a kitchen table, at > CERN's Large Hadron Collider, at the bottom of an ocean, on Mars, and so > on." > > So what specific parts are we ignoring? Yes, yes, yes. I understand scientific method. But you (again, your group) are agenda driven. I've seen the "tests" you perform where you set up two utterly different systems - one lo-fi, one upper-mid-fi, and abx them behind a screen. You trot out a bunch of audiophiles who are utterly wamboozled and unable to differentiate which one is X. I've taken these tests and know how incredibly difficult they are, even when there's an easily-verifiable difference waiting to be noticed. If you're not practiced at it -- really well practiced -- you're gonna flub the test. So, I am quite convinced by my own experience that ABX is not a valid test for subtle differences in audio. JH901 or whatever his name is, is trying to set up an ABX test using cables. Without even knowing the scenario in detail, I do know that if he sets the test up correctly he's going to fail miserably. Does that mean there's no difference? I really don't know. I hear differences in cables, but I can't say for sure whether it's expectation bias or a real difference that flies under the ABX radar. I suspect the latter, but have no way of proving it. I'm not about to spend my time and money trying to figure out how better to run or create a test, but my suspicions are, I feel, the basis for audiophile's rejection of ABX. It seems wrong, and nobody's trying to figure out anything better. There's no money in it, so nobody's putting effort into it. As I stated up front, I feel that you're 100% agenda driven, so I don't expect you to find any merit in what I'm saying, but I had to try. I'm gone now, until my blood pressure boils up again in a month or so. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Julf wrote: > I don't think we have an issue with that - what we have an issue with is > someone who sells knives and his friend who has come up with a badly > working sharpening stone walking into a cooking forum claiming cutlery > makes a major difference to the taste of food, and how the usual way of > tasting food must be flawed because it doesn't show the difference. There's truth to this, and I don't have a problem with calling out a manufacturer who sells snake oil - high-end Ethernet cables for instance - but the issue I have is with you and your gang's ridicule of and dog-piling on audiophiles. In the AUDIOPHILE forum for chrissakes! A point - I like nice, thick, well-made cables, ones that cost a lot of money (which I can afford). I liken it to putting proper P0 tires on my Maserati. Would General tires from Green and Ross do just as well for way less money? Probably. Would I notice a difference? Probably not. But I'm not gonna do it. I would KNOW they're sub-par for the car. Same with my stereo. I won't put zip cord between my tube mono amp and my $30k speakers. Does the cable I have in there now sound better than zip cord? Seems to me like it does. Could I pick it out in an ABX test? No goddamn way - I'm not stupid. But still, I think it sounds best with these here high-end cables, so I'm going to leave them in. It works for me. AND WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME I'M WRONG? What gives you the right? Now, if I were to post in the General forum about how my thick, penis-enlarging cables sound better than zip cord - have at it. Crucify me. I'd deserve it. But if I want to talk about getting rid of upper-midrange glare by changing cables down here in the audiophile basement, why should I have to deal with a gang of petty goons calling me an idiot? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
ralphpnj wrote: > Why is that in every field of science and technology objective research > is welcomed and given the utmost respect but in audio (by "audio" I am > referring to the use of technology to reproduce sound and music) the > objective approach is considered (at least by you) as irrational? For crying out loud, why is YOUR so-called objective approach the right one? who made you the arbiter of science? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
ralphpnj wrote: > Jason, I'm confused as to why you single me out. Many of my posts simply > try to point out how and why audiophiles are being duped, which I blame > on the "experts" - whether they be audiophile writers, editors or > manufacturers (and their marketing and advertising departments). > Individual audiophiles, with no commercial interests, can believe > whatever they chose to believe, however when they state these beliefs as > facts, facts that counter to accepted and well established science, well > then I have no problem calling them out and asking them to provide real > proof that these beliefs are facts rather than mere fantasies. In all honesty - 1) because you incessantly repeat the same diatribe about the audio press. Ok. We get it. It's not that big a deal, and nobody else really cares. Audio magazines are about advertising, and advertorials for the most part. Same goes for auto mags. And fashion. Watches. Cigars. Travel. Home furnishings. Who really gives a damn? You whinge on about this as if it's some profound truism, or as if you're revealing who was behind the grassy knoll. Give it a rest. 2) because you come first to mind (I don't really know why) regarding the constant sneering at audiophiles. I could easily substitute any of the others in your little gang, but I can't be bothered. I memorized your name, so you'll do. This behaviour comes across as a pathology - you protest too much and as such I would wager there's some dark little secret that compels you to do this. It's pathetic. Further, you (and this could be the royal -you-) harp on about established science, as if you're a -scientist!- But you take this one little corner - ABX etc - and trot it out as if it's the final, proven, de facto physical law that proves - -proves- I say - that there is no difference between a 90's era CD player and state of the art digital from the present day (or any other such -no difference- mantra - take your pick). A real scientist - someone who's actually interested in getting to the truth rather than furthering an agenda - would look at the situation and say "well, they swear that they're hearing a difference, and ABX doesn't reveal it. Let's try something else." What that something else is - I have no idea. I don't have enough skin in the game to spend time digging it out. But you blather on about pseudoscience all the while ignoring true scientific method. Will that do? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
philippe_44 wrote: > Point taken, but although not being involved in these flame wars, I > recently had to see them through the invasion of the "what's new" > timeline that was eaten up by the audiophile sub-forum. > > I think what is making the people with a scientific background (over) > reacting is when some people are in denial of simple scientific facts on > the principle "are you sure, there might be something you don't know, > open up". I even admit that I'm jumping a bit when I see discussions > like "a file transmitted by email sounded more echo-ish" ... well no, > this is the same file and I can explain and demonstrate the theory of > code correction. > > But there is nothing wrong to have a better experience with an equipment > that looks more refined or that you took hours to setup and polish. It > sounds better to you and this is not "imagination", this is just adding > extra sensorial factors to the experience, but factors that have nothing > to do with the sound characteristics. And the experience is unique, is > yours. > > On another discussion, I was making the parallel with eating: I can make > the (almost) exact same meal at the molecular level and serve it at the > same T°. Now, if you serve this to me in a nice and quiet restaurant, > nice plates and glasses, polite waiter on a cool summer evening, I will > probably tell you that the food tastes much better than the same one > served in a noisy place, in plastic plates & glasses and with a waiter > throwing meal at my table - and it *does* taste better and that > experience can be repeated as many times as you want. But that's me. > Some might have no sensitivity to the loudness of the restaurant and > won't see any difference. > > That would be as foolish from me to try to prove the difference by some > effect at the food atomic level as it would be foolish to say that > because things are the same at atomic level, then all of us have to feel > the same eating experience/pleasure. > > This is not relativism of everything, but just recognition of the > multi-factor aspect of listening experience whose only some part can be > quantified, but at least let's not waste our time on arguing on the > quantifiable parts when they are the same. Philippe, you're a huge contributor to this ecosystem and for that you have my utmost respect. And I think you definitely get what I'm trying to say. I too am saddened by Jkeny's and Arny's relentless squabbles, although I am rooting for JK to come out on top as at least he owns a SB and is part of this community - kruger is here to fight only. He's the master baiter. Still, this behaviour doesn't have to be. If you scorn homeopaths, you don't go to a homeopath conference and start hollering about science. But if a homeopath comes to a research lab at a university and starts yelling about how everyone's doing it wrong, well then - he's fair game. And that's what's going on here. Someone wants to chat about how lifting his cables off the floor "removes veils" from the sound, or how an emailed file sounds different... who is he hurting. You and I know it's bullshit, but why dogpile on him as these goons are doing? If they post nonsense in the General forum, well it's game on, but look at the name of this sub-forum - AUDIOPHILES. This ralphy guy must have been beaten up by a gang of audio reviewers, or maybe his wife cheated on him with an audiophile? Who knows. But this behaviour of him and his buddies is truly irrational. I come to this forum every few days to see what's new with plugins, hardware, software and the like. As you stated, these flame wars are at the top of the list. But I can't blame Jkeny for responding to the thuggish actions of the four or five goons who provoke and ridicule a harmless affectation of those who want to play with wires and gear and talk about it in the appropriate place. To follow up with your analogy regarding food. Say you spend $500 on a hand-made, forged Japanese chef's knife. You buy high-end waterstones to polish and refine the edge, which you get down to one molecule and it glows blue when Orcs are around. You make a meal with this knife, and -- as you said -- your pride in what you did makes it taste better. Wouldn't it suck to post this pride in your work on a forum and have a bunch of cheerless wankers jump all over you saying you wasted your money and that a $50 Wusthorf is as good? Really, there's plenty of room on the internet for everyone. Why spoil the fun of others? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
I've got nothing to say to you, troll. You don't own a Squeezebox and have nothing constructive to add here. You're the first member of my ignore list. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
ralphpnj wrote: > Pray tell - what would any self respecting audiophile be doing on the > Slimdevices forum? > > Perhaps trying to find out which Internet music streaming service sounds > best in the background? > > everything for everyone, is running the world and melting the polar ice > caps> own Squeezeboxes>. So no audiophiles want to hang around in the AUDIOPHILE section of this forum, because you say so therefore it must be true. But just in case they did happen to post an AUDIOPHILE query or observation about something YOU don't believe in because an ABX has shown it's too blunt of an instrument to pick it up, well hey - *you're here to run them off*. Got it. Carry on. Jason PS: Did you ever - just for a second - think that this sub-forum was created just so that there WAS a place where these audiophiles you so love to ridicule (and get a cheap buzz from doing so) could talk about cables and stuff without having to deal with you bunch of cheerless bullies? Why do you glean such a sour pleasure from ridiculing and name-calling a group that really doesn't want anything to do with you? Why not leave them in peace in a nice, damp little corner of this forum? What sad character flaws do you have that this activity soothes? doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Julf wrote:
> It has become clear from some of the threads here that we need a new
> term to describe a certain behaviour, where someone engages in something
> resembling trolling ("sowing discord on the Internet by starting
> arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or
> off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum,
> chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into
> an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic
> discussion."), but with a specific intent to promote a belief system or
> commercial agenda. In that sense, it also resembles astroturfing ("the
> use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing
> public opinion"), sockpuppets ("misleading uses of online identities,
> such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or
> organization") and meatpuppets ("community members that have been
> recruited by an existing member to support their position").
>
> The best terms I can think of are "astrotroll" for those with a
> commercial agenda, and "cosmotroll" for those with a purely ideological,
> non-commercial agenda, but I would love to hear suggestions for terms
> better describing these behaviours.
Or like the wankers who troll the audiophile forum just so they can feel
self important as they set upon anyone who dares to try and talk about
AUDIOPHILE Stuff in the AUDIOPHILE forum?
Like those guys?
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Julf wrote:
> It has become clear from some of the threads here that we need a new
> term to describe a certain behaviour, where someone engages in something
> resembling trolling ("sowing discord on the Internet by starting
> arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or
> off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum,
> chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into
> an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic
> discussion."), but with a specific intent to promote a belief system or
> commercial agenda. In that sense, it also resembles astroturfing ("the
> use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing
> public opinion"), sockpuppets ("misleading uses of online identities,
> such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or
> organization") and meatpuppets ("community members that have been
> recruited by an existing member to support their position").
>
> The best terms I can think of are "astrotroll" for those with a
> commercial agenda, and "cosmotroll" for those with a purely ideological,
> non-commercial agenda, but I would love to hear suggestions for terms
> better describing these behaviours.
You mean like arny? The guy who doesn't own a Squeezebox and come to a
Squeezebox-specific website to troll and fight?
Like him?
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Piss take or serious?
Nearly half the population of the US talks to an invisible man on a daily basis. And you think this machina dynamica stuff is loopy? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103830 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
arnyk wrote: > Wow, jkeny has empowered himself to speak for the 100's if not 1000's of > people who post on this forum! > > Amazing! > > What you jkeny and others around here don't get is that once one > obtains a certain critical mass of knowledge and experience and has the > mental power to put it together correctly, one achieves a certain level > of clarity. > > I've had the privilege of knowing personally over a period of many years > some of the great modern minds of audio, people like David Clark, Earl > Geddes, and James Johnston. In their areas of expertise they have > achieved a relatively high level of clarity. > > One of the consequences of well-informed and well-experienced clarity in > a certain area is that many things that are confusing to others are > unbelievably clear to them. This clarity enables the execution of > wonderful acts of diagnosis and invention. For example James Johnston > was an important member of the two different but overlapping small > groups of people who invented first MP3, and then AAC encoding. Earl > Geddes holds fundamental patents he was the sole developer of related to > speakers that, while they will probably be mostly broken before they are > widely used, nevertheless his scientific papers and patents have enabled > a lot of effective development in that area. > > People who have this clarity can leap over confusion and make things > that were once confusing to all, clear to themselves and others. > > One of the consequences of such limited clarity as I have been able to > obtain in certain narrow areas, is that in those areas and in some cases > I have sufficient clarity about certain audio components such as DACs > and amplifiers that I know what they are and what they can do in terms > of practical use and subjective experience. This clarity allows me to > study things, test things, and realize certain things about them that > turn out to be true and helpful in somewhat widespread use and in the > long run. > > It was that kind of clarity that enabled me to develop ABX from what it > was in 1950 to where I took it back in the middle-late 1970s. It was > that clarity that enabled me to do what I did back in Y2K to popularize > what I called PCABX which we now see implemented in wonderful tools like > FB2K/ABX. Everybody who does anything of value stands on the shoulder of > others. > > It is often clarity that enables people to see audio placeboes for what > they are. It clarity about certain things that is why I and certain > others say that knowing the technology that we know we can not ethically > be involved with certain audio products. > > It is probably that clarity that you call Motivations, but if you > understand clarity you realize that while clarity can be motivation it > is not really the kind of negative thing that you make it out to be. It > is power to do good. It is the power to act positively. It is the power > to speak directly. > > It probably takes a certain amount of clarity to understand higher > levels of clarity. > > I wish you could have a little clarity, jkeny. I really do. No matter > how you may wish to pretend that you have clarity, well IME not so much. > It is that lack of clarity about certain critical areas of audio that > explains the muddle of deflections, gross technical errors and libels > that you have imposed on this forum just lately. Holy shit! I had no idea that Arny had -clarity!- That he understood, grokked, -knew- (in the biblical sense) everything about audio, down to the quantum level. He's Jesus, Neo and Einstein all rolled into one. It's no wonder our petty, childish arguments bounce off his heavenly armour. He's got -clarity!- Seriously, you can't make this stuff up. Add in Ralph's proselytizing, his -testifying -about how he's found faith by leaving the unbeliever audiophiles, and it's pretty darn clear that we're dealing with fundamentalists and we all know how fruitful it is arguing against them. Once again, it's like trying to nail jello to a wall. Further, I get the feeling that Arny gleans a significant dosage of much-needed self-affirmation from these sorts of arguments - what else would possess him to wade into a forum dedicated to a product he doesn't even own and start up a controversial slam-down of a product produced by one of the foremost contributors. So ralph, julf et all, your cult leader is now amongst us, and you're saved. Unfortunately those of us with less skin in the game will still just quietly play with our stereos and swap around some components, and never reach the transcendence you've achieved. As an aside, thank you SO much for your ceaseless work to protect us from the evil audio companies and their toadies the audio press, as they collude for world domination. I'm you can all meet in Arny's basement (which I am still putting good odds on being panelled in rich oak veneer) and figure out how to bust wide open their manipulation of the markets th
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
arnyk wrote: > You're deflecting. There are two questions that you need to answer to > proceed logically: > > Here they are again: > > What free offers of hardware and/or software were made? > > Were the postings real world problem solving or sales pitches for the > benefit of a commercial venture? > > > > Jason, the above post seems to show an acute inability to view one's own > acts as they view others doing the identically same thing. > > Every discussion has two parties, or there is no discussion, just a > monologue, right? > > You and I have been discussing various topics and the discussion has > been bilateral and related to the same topic, no? > > There has been back-and-forth, no? > > If the topics we have been discussing are so trivial that it makes any > discussion of them into trolling, then both of us are trolling, no? No. I'm discussing you as a troll with this community that you know nothing about. I don't need to answer your questions on JS' contibutions. You know nothing about what you speak re: JS. You're the troll - Do your own research. Jason. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
arnyk wrote: > > Umm Give. Doesn't that mean offer for free without hope of remuneration > of any kind? What free offers of hardware and/or software were made? > Were the postings real world problem solving or sales pitches for the > benefit of a commercial venture? > > Can you link any posts that were truly free, unfettered gifts and not > part of a sales strategy for a commercial enterprise designed to provide > someone with financial gain? So John's only in it for the money? He never gives info or help? Probably just like triode and Michael too, the freeloaders. Here's the definition of a troll: "A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues." Listen, I know his message resonates with you ABX was out there, but this guy is here to argue, plain and simple. He doesn't even own a Squeezebox, for crying out loud. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
Hey all (and not Arny) I just took a peek at Mr K's profile, and every post he's made in the short time he's been here has been in regard to some sort of measurement wankery. Not one SB-related micron of information. He's trolling, pure and simple. And the first target of his vitriol? John Swenson - perhaps one of the most storied contributors to the Squeezebox ecosystem. No matter how it ended up for John, he gave more to this community than almost anyone else. This should be shut down and his account cancelled. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
So I guess the answer is no, you don't own a Squeezebox and you're over here trolling. Got it. Continue. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
arnyk wrote: > Back at you, fellow. I ask simple questions, you deflect the discussion > into something else, usually personal attacks like the one above. Hey! I wasn't talking to you. But since you're here, do you even own a squeezebox? Or did you just hear that the fishin's fine and presto, joined right up? As an aside from all this nastiness, an observation - I honestly think that ABX is the tipping point on the seesaw between the Os and the S'. Audiophiles mightily distrust ABX, and with good reason, I think. I've taken part in two of those hateful experiments, and found myself utterly wamboozled and unable to concentrate on the music without thinking about the test. "Is this this, or this?" Perhaps practice helps? I've also participated in blind AB tests at a prominent Canadian speaker manufacturer, and found them entertaining, informative and stress free. Take what you will from that. Anyway, I don't have a better, feasible, repeatable test to offer, so the standoff shall continue, yes? Back to your regularly scheduled programming - let the snippiness resume. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
jkeny wrote: > There is nothing more to say about the Regen other than for people to > try it for themselves & report their findings. There may be more to say > if JS or someone else produces measurements that show the affect of the > Regen? > > What the last page has been about is Arny's attempts at slandering the > business practices of Uptone audio & the cost of the Regen in > particular. > > It would appear that people on here don't know him or his past, apart > from Jason & I > So, before he gets much further in his attempts at trying to ruin a > company & their product I felt it was necessary to put his motivations > into some sort of context. I've always found that trying to nail Arny down is like trying to nail jello to a wall. In some ways it's like dealing with religious fundamentalists - not with regard to the message at all, but rather the deflection and obfuscation that you're constantly having to navigate It's an observationalist thing -- they think they're being clever -- but AK's the master. It's one of those I-don't-know-why-I-bother kind of things. And for the most part, I don't. Kind of like Ronnie (Man in a Van - who isn't a sock puppet I guarantee) who says that he's quite happy listening to the improvements wrought by expectation bias, I just change things around as I see fit, and enjoy the sound quality improvements. However, as I said earlier (maybe in another thread?) occasionally I reach my tipping point and then must chime in. For all the good it does. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
jkeny wrote: > Dodging the question, Arny > > As you well know I have produced positive ABX results on AVS forum for > differentiating high-res files & you rejected both mine & Amir's > numerous positive results saying that you distrusted us & that only if > the test was run with a trusted administrator would you accept any > results from me or him. So you have rejected multiple positive results > by different people on the basis that you don't trust them. > > Of course you have proven just how low you will sink in your attempts at > muddying the waters by publishing your ABX test purporting it to be a > real attempt at an ABX listening test when, in fact the timing in the > ABX log shows that you were randomly hitting keys at a fast pace. The > log showed 1 second response for some trials - the majority of trials > taking 4 seconds or less. > > You are jut playing your usual games, Arny which are transparent to all. Well, isn't this -exciting!- Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
arnyk wrote: > Another example post containing made up evil about others and spewed as > if it were the truth. > I'm not sure what sort of response I expected. Perhaps "Sweet blue jesus, Jason, you're right! What have I been doing? I'm off to rail against the cosmetics industry! arnyk wrote: > > Where would you get the strange idea that I don't like to play and play > with my stereo equipment? No, its just another made-up fantasy. > I kind of got the feeling that you were too busy measuring it. arnyk wrote: > > Where did you get the idea that my comments are relevant to ABX? Have I > mentioned it here? No, its just another made-up fantasy. > Right you are. You'll accept sighted tests as proof of difference. Thanks for correcting me. arnyk wrote: > > If someone perchance figures out how to avoid outlandish numbers of of > false positives and/or false negatives while not using ABX or any other > kind of DBT methodology, I'd love to see it! > Seriously though - this really is the nut of the matter. arnyk wrote: > > I'm retired and can't line up enough relevant charitable or for profit > work to fill all of my time. I do many hours of both every week, but its > not yet enough. That's my excuse - what is yours? ;-) > I occasionally reach my tipping point with regard to pedanticism. You're not the worst in this regard, but you are, in many ways, the standard bearer for the ABX crowd, and those who seem to glean a perverse pleasure in ridiculing audiophiles. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
arnyk wrote: > You have completely misinterpreted me. The people who make a fool out of > themselves over simple reasonable statements are grist for my mill. I > love watching people, particularly Placebophiles. Take note, all. This is what it all boils down to - the desire to ridicule and belittle anyone who wants to play with stereo equipment, but isn't willing to toe the ABX line. This is a petty way to spend your time, Arny. In all seriousness, you've probably forgotten more about how audio works than most of us will ever know. But your incessant need to constantly shoot down anyone who disagrees with the veracity of ABX tests precedes you. We all know what your eventual agenda is, so the thinly-veiled initial reasonableness of your arguments is easily pierced by those of us who've dealt with you before. It's a big world out there. Why not extend your reach to include the car guys who buy expensive tires where cheaper ones will do, or women who purchase tiny pots of >$100 cream? Sigh. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] PC internal Noise reduction products
Man in a van wrote: > Jason, I do like your second paragraph, excellent prose! It really has a > flow to it. > > Just like to add, that I don't consider myself as an objectivist (I'm > not very clever with technical stuff) and that I do hear differences > between some equipment, but as these differences are-* in my head*-, I > don't both much with telling folk about them. > > (I had to look up Ohm speakers) :D > > atb > > Ronnie. Thenk yew. It's not so much the message I disagree with - to some extent. It's the smug, self-congratulatory wanking-each-other-off arrogance in their tone that gets under my skin. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103683 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] PC internal Noise reduction products
Mnyb wrote: > Is this not 95% of treads in any forum especially audioforums , endless > diskussions at full speed to nowhere 😎 To some extent I do agree. However the moderators of this forum created the "audiophiles" subform specifically so that audiophiles (whatever you think of them) could discuss their audiophile stuff - power cords, DACS, amps etc - without having to suffer the ridicule of objectivists. But take a look - moments after some poor, unsuspecting audiophile posts a question or observation regarding ANYTHING other than speakers or room treatments, the same parade of humourless curmudgeons jumps in, battering down the OP with post after post of borderline-insulting, patronizing condescension-filled arguments. It's no wonder that this sub-forum is a tumbleweed-filled wasteland. Its original purpose is rendered mute. It's the same group - some in fact, some in spirit - from the rec.audio.high-end days, probably still sitting in their wood-paneled basements, listening to Ohm speakers and Sansui amps run through zip cord, because hey - ABX tests obscure any differences that could possibly lead to a system improvement. Remember, if you can't measure it, you DEFINITELY can't hear it. They truly are men without cheer. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103683 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] PC internal Noise reduction products
Man in a van wrote: > _-*Noun_or_verb?*-_ :p > > atb > > ronnie Verb. Definitely a verb. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103683 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] PC internal Noise reduction products
Man in a van wrote: > What is your point? > > Have you used these products or just being a shill? > > Please explain as I would like to know. It's an objectivist circle jerk.. Move along. Nothing to see here. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103683 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] uptone audio regen
Man in a van wrote: > As a non learned, non aquainted and frankly not bothered too much about > the opinion of others unless they are based on their experience, I > would say they are as valid as any claims made in that blog that is in > your signature. > > It might have been better if your question had been phrased in a manner > that does not suggest you are trolling. > > YMMV [emoji14] > > Ronnie. Go get 'im, Ronnie! Jason. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Ethernet Cable and Audio...
jimmypowder wrote: > I have heard the 10,000 dollar Audioquest Ethernet cable and it is > amazing !! The differences from a standard > Ethernet cable are profound . I'm thinking of buying a pair . You go, girlfriend! doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
I have dithered back and forth about trying once more to get my point across, as I have attempted several times over the past 20 or so years. However, I feel that it's a fool's game as nobody in this arena is even remotely interested in furthering the discussion. The participants fall into two camps: The first are split into two sub-grousp: first the audiofools, who blather on about how ANY testing is verboten and counter-music. There are fewer and fewer of these around. Science is such a part of our daily life that it's rare for these unicorns to rear their heads in public. The second sub-group are those who swap gear and hear clear differences. These chappies are far more sensible. They realize that there's been a large number of tests that show there SHOULDN'T be any differences, but still, their senses tell them there's more going on than can be explained by those tests. They're suspicious of ABX. These are the people who the ABX'ers wrongly characterize as anti-science creationist, homeopathic fools. For the most part, I find them somewhat apologetic. "I know there shouldn't be differences, but I -hear- them." The other camp labels themselves as objectivist (or some such name). I strongly object(!) to this label, as this group is just as biased, and just as agenda-driven as the audiophiles. There's significant anger and (I suspect) hidden gear envy here. This anti-subjectivist group has latched on to the ABX test as their herald, their mascot. "See? ABX shows there's no difference! You're fools! ABX! ABX!" It's as much a religion as believing that cables change the sound. True science-based experimentation goes thusly: A hypothesis, test it, theory, test it. True scientists wouldn't stop at ABX. They'd see that perhaps ABX is measuring the wrong thing, or is not valid for the model. In order to support the ABX model, they'd strive to find other ways of testing the hypothesis. ABX is stale. It comes up with null findings when -everything- points to the idea that it -should- show a result. Wildly different systems show no difference with ABX. To me, that says that perhaps ABX isn't capable of revealing those differences. So what do the anti-subjectivists do? They repeat the same tests over and over again, The duck floats, so they burn the witch. Any attempts to subvert the religion are met with obfuscation and sophistry. Suggest another test - what's the response? "ABX! ABX!" I've debated some on religious forums, and it's a fool's game. And so it goes here. While am thoroughly in favour of exposing quackery in audio (vis: ethernet cables, usb cables, and -- to a lesser extent -- speaker/interconnects) the religious fervour and vitriol that's expended by the anti-subjectivist against the possibility of ANY value whatsoever in high-end gear, along with the logistical, circular wrangling required to even try to deal with it, renders the prospect unsavoury and wasteful. Bah. I'm done. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote: > Have there been instances of two different amps that can't be told apart > in an ABX being reliably shown as actually sounding different? Jesus Christ - It's like trying to nail jello to a wall. That's the type of behaviour I see on fundy Christian websites. Never a straight answer. Could you answer the question please? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Have there been instances of two different amps that measure the same being reliably shown as sounding different via ABX? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote: > Just not sure why that would be useful information. If you can identify > X, it means you can tell a difference between A and B. ABX in the context of audio gear tests the subject not the equipment. It's confusing and confounding. We've already established that ABX can't reveal audible differences in amplifiers. It's of no use here. Why are you (not you specifically) resistant to a/B DBT? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote: > Absolutely. I was about to make that point too. This discussion started > from the premise that two pieces of gear that measure the same sound the > same, and that is largely true, and we should not underestimate the > psychological factors that make a $50 000 amp that looks like it was > built out of titanium to withstand a nuclear explosion appear to sound > better than a $200 plastic box. > > But mostly the gear doesn't measure the same. They are different, by > design. A lot of (especially high-end) gear is "voiced" on purpose. > > That doesn't imply that a $50 000 amp sounds better than a $200 one. It > implies that they sound *different*. Which one you prefer is a > subjective preference, but some manufacturers have been pretty > successful in creating voicing, colouring and even distortion that is > perceived as pleasant. Most audiophiles don't like to talk about > transparency and accuracy. They tend to talk about things like "rhythm", > "musicality", "pacing", "imaging" and whatever... I completely agree. Well said. Jason. doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
garym wrote: > "Whatever"...are you 14 years old? Why have you become so belligerent? I > thought you were trying to have a conversation here about potential > differences using science and engineering knowledge. I hope I'm wrong, > but I'm afraid that--despite your long membership here--you're coming > across as a troll who's not really interested in learning anything > new--instead just trying to stir things up. > > Edit: I apologize to the forum for being a bit testy here. But I > actually thought I was trying to help by interjecting with info about > ABX tests under the assumption that you didn't fully understand how they > worked. And then in your response, you made this comment regarding me/us > "wamboozling another stupid audiophile". I thought this was an uncalled > for remark that implies an attack on you that I did not make. I was > simply trying to be informative, not knowing what you know or don't > know, but only relying on your post in this thread. I've got nothing for you. I stated that I understand how ABX works, and you insist that I don't. I was having a nice, respectful conversation with another member (don't have his name here in edit mode, sorry) and you pipe in with this tired ABX schtick. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
garym wrote: > Sorry, your statement above still indicates a misunderstanding of ABX > tests. They are not about identifying the X. They are a method for > determining whether A is different from B. Whatever. That's semantics. The subject has to determine if X is A or B. It's still not relevant, and is old news regarding choosing between audio equipment. We KNOW that two different amps that measure the same will show as identical in ABX DBT testing. Try something different. Jsaon doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
garym wrote: > I must interject. Your statement above indicates that you don't > understand what an ABX test is or its acceptance in the scholarly > research literature. Google "ABX Test" and you'll find some useful > explanations. ABX is a scientifically valid method of doing a double > blind AB comparison. I understand exactly what an ABX test is. I also understand how useful it can be. But in my opinion it's not a valid way to determine preference in audio gear. It will clearly show whether the participant can identify X. That's not of concern to me. There has been test after test that shows ABX will not reveal differences in amplifiers. It's tired and stale. I was at Paradigm a number of years ago and looked into their development process. They use A/B tests to determine preference. "Here," they would say. "We've changed a crossover component. Which sounds better -- the before or after change?" And they do it DB. There's no X. There's no need for X. X is irrelevant to these professionals who are putting their product on the line. Instead of sitting around congratulating each other on how you've wamboozled another stupid audiophile, why not try to figure out if there's another test that can determine preference? Can we not try something different? Two systems. A and B. Which sounds better? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
ralphpnj wrote: > Ah, my mistake. Under those conditions I would that the less expensive > setup would sound the same as the more expensive setup the vast majority > of the time and in those few instances where they do sound different the > differences would be fairly minor. > > As for my idea of a good DBT, that would a DBT that is properly set up > and easy to run. > > One of the main objections to DBTs always cited in audiophile circles is > that we don't listen to music in short little 60 seconds bursts, as is > often the case in many DBTs, i.e. the constant switching between the > various pieces of equipment being tested. To which I say, where does it > say that the switching needs to be all that frequent? Why not set up the > equipment and test so that long (anything from 10 minutes to 10 days) > periods of listening can be accommodated. Set up the equipment and > listen as you normally would and then when you have good idea of how > things sound switch (or not, since not knowing whether or not you > actually switched is part of a good DBT) to the other piece of equipment > and listen until you have good idea of how things sound. Repeat as often > as you like. > > Many of the equipment reviews in the high end audio magazines take place > over a period of many months so I don't understand why the DBT I > described above can't be part of the review process. Well actually I do > know why - because such a DBT would blow the lid on all their nonsense, > assuming that is that they just don't lie about the results, something I > won't put past them. I agree with your points regarding the nonsense in audiophilia. The straw that broke the camel's back, in my mind, is high-end ethernet cables. It's so ludicrous that I don't even know where to start. But beware reductio ad absurdum (SP?) and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I took a brief look at one of the other guy's ABX DBT that was linked to up above... to me that was just plain confusing. As soon as the X appears, all bets are off. I firmly don't believe that ABX is good for anything except showing how to confound a test and confuse the participants. A and B, that's a great idea. Yes -- an easily-switchable DBT, would be just the ticket. Say, two USB outputs from a computer, level-matched, going to two completely different systems. And a decent pair of speakers. I've done it single-blind, with a buddy who was just as interested in the outcome as I. Although we were both aware of the dangers of SB, we tried to keep it fairly unbiased. With cables it was impossible to tell ANY difference, but with amps we had fairly good success. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
ralphpnj wrote: > Sorry to have to use this word: depends, as in it depends on a quite a > few factors. What kind of speakers, where are the speakers be placed, > how loud do you like to listen to music, will you be using a subwoofer, > etc. All of these factors are important and should be taken into > consideration when assembling an audio system. > > Another thing to keep in mind is that when I say that a $200 amp may > offer 95% of the performance of a $50,000 amp it doesn't necessarily > mean that the $50,000 amp sounds better all the time but rather that the > $200 sounds as good as the $50,000 amp 95% of the time. In other words > what the extra $49,800 gets you is better sound 5% of the time, say > during an orchestral peak or a very low bass note, otherwise the two > amps may indeed sound almost identical, meaning that in a double blind > test one would not be able to reliably tell the difference. But then > DBTs are verboten in the world of high end audio. I thought I was pretty clear: With the same speakers. And with speakers that match the load and sensitivity needs of the amp. I perhaps didn't overtly state the same room, but it was implied. So in those conditions, the amps/DACs would sound the same, is that right? DBTs are great ideas -- I've participated in two at a large speaker manufacturer, where they use DBTs to determine which speaker sounds best. They're eye-opening to say the least. I'd love to participate in a well-set-up DBT of amp and DAC. I would imagine your idea of a good DBT would probably be vastly different from mine. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
ralphpnj wrote: > > > Still another problem is the law of diminishing returns - a $200 amp may > offer 95% of the performance of a $50,000 amp and a $5000 amp may offer > 98% of the performance of a the same $50,000 amp. Often one has to > decide if the huge increase in price justifies the small improvement in > performance. Of course price is all too often not an issue for the high > end reviewer who either get the equipment on a semi-permanent loan or a > vastly reduced price. For the rest of us mere morals, price is very > important. > > . It's a little clearer. But still some questions: (I'll say "better" here but I understand your point about "different" and personal choice as to which is preferred) The $5k amp can sound better than the $200 amp. And the $50k amp may well sound better than the $5k amp (am I correct in paraphrasing your comparison?). But it's not the solid aluminum faceplate that's responsible for the improvement, it's something else that's responsible? So it is possible to assemble a system for, say $10k (not counting in speakers which I deduce is where you believe that spending more gets better sound) that is going to sound better than one for $500? Again, given that all components in both systems are well engineered? Thanks, Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
ralphpnj wrote: > Jason, > > I think you are mistaking sonic performance for build quality. The > Nelson Pass mono amps are built like small tanks and are able to handle > even the most difficult speaker loads. The high build quality should > make the Pass amps trouble free for many years but from a strictly sonic > viewpoint, as Julf pointed out, if the TPA31XXD2 amps are driving > speakers with a compatible load the two amps will "sound" very similar. > The same is true for DACs - the inexpensive DAC will have a lesser build > quality and less robust feature set but sonically will be very similar > to almost any mega-buck DAC. > > Edit: You can trust what I'm saying since, as you can plainly see for my > avatar, I have a golden ear. I'm a touch confused: "very similar" isn't "the same", and my (admittedly superficial) reading of this and other threads in here sees repeated use of words like "indistinguishable" to describe the sound of two amps and DACs that measure the same, regardless of cost. Build quality is obviously different, but I was asking specifically about sound quality. If all these overbuilt audiophile amps and DACs are really high-priced nonsense, then they should offer no sonic improvements over their inexpensive well-engineered counterparts. (Again, given the amp is driving a compatible speaker load and efficiency) Could you please clarify? Thanks, Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote: > For the DAC part, I am pretty sure the €140 Audioengine D1 that drives > my genelecs is more than transparent and accurate enough, and in fact > even the €24 UCA-202 combined ADC and DAC that I use for room > measurements 'seems to be good enough' > (http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm). Same goes for the €30 > hifiberry DAC I use on my raspberry pi. > > Cheapest amp? As long as they aren't pushed beyond their comfort zone in > terms of power and load impedance, the TPA31XXD2 series class D chips > probably give you transparency and accuracy at a reasonable price - you > can get a 2x50W stereo amp board for something like €25, but need to add > case, power supply and connectors, so looking at maybe €100 for a > complete amp. Fascinating! So a combination of the D1 and one of these TPA31XXD2 amps would sound as good as / indistinguishable from, say, a dCS stack feeding a set of Pass Labs mono amps? Given of course, a compatible speaker load? And, just to clarify the parameters, assuming they're driving a fairly high-end pair of speakers, not a set of Logitech desktop jobbies. Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote: > As Darren pointed out, no two speakers measure the same, but even if > they did, they would still sound different if they had the drivers > placed differently, had different shape/size baffle, etc - stuff that > affects how the speakers interact with the room. Fair enough. Another question: What's the cheapest amp/DAC combo you can think of that is transparent and accurate and will sound the same as any other competently-designed components regardless of price? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote: > "Does size matter?" :) > > I would say that measurements are really important when it comes to > speaker-room interaction. It is very hard to achieve a decent frequency > response without nasty room resonances unless you use in-room > measurements. With regard to choosing a pair of speakers, if the room is a constant then wouldn't measurements of the speakers tell you how they'd sound? IE: two speakers that measure the same should sound the same in the same listening room? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote: > That is a hard question, because it really boils down to "how much would > you think it reasonable to spend on your hobby?". How important is > listening to music to you? How important is it to feel you have a "nice" > speaker? Ultimately it will be a personal choice, based on your own > preferences, priorities and financial situation. Speakers (along with > the room), unlike something like amps, DACs and CD players, are where we > still are pretty far from perfection, and additional spending can > actually get you improvements. Are measurements important when it comes to speakers? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote: > I just like music, and have a keen interest (and some professional > experience) in audio technology, but that's all. How much would you think it reasonable to spend on a pair of floorstanding speakers for a medium-sized (say, 16x20ft) room? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102632 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Oh-oh, the ethernet/USB cable dispute all over again ...
Julf wrote:
> Oh, there are so many reasons for it - the need to believe, confirmation
> bias ("I only read what I believe"), the current me-centred "just
> because you are an engineer and have studied stuff doesn't mean your
> opinion is any more valuable than my opinion" attitude... Oh, don't get
> me started... :)
>
> Audiophilia is no different from alternative medicine, intelligent
> design, homeopathy, ESP, rebirthing, UFOlogy or any of the other
> pseudoscience that is still so prevalent in our society. At least
> audiophiles don't kill us for having an "evil eye"...
So I take it you're not an "audiophile?"
Jason.
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