[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
BB - I think we are basically agreeing. I am not a fan of v. expensive interconnects/mains cables etc - but I can hear a difference between OK cables and rubbish cables. My amplifier remark was a bit flippant (I apologise) but I do strongly believe that the cables are as much part of the overall systems as the output transistors or the regulation caps (for example). Not every amp sounds the same - that's what I was really trying to say. Regards Phil -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
buddhabreath Wrote: Of course DB testing discriminates between different! It is a basic scientific procedure to ensure perceptive bias does not enter into a result. better is in the mind of the receiver - but often times that better goes away under DB conditions. BB, The point I was trying to make is exactly what I wrote... that DB testing does not discriminate between better and different - not that it doesn't discriminate between different and identical! different vs better is all in the mind (regardless of the methodology of the comparison). As for hearing mechanisms...actually the ear is an astonishingly sophisticated transducer coupled to an analogue computer of (so far) indescribable complexity. Other than in quite broad terms we all perceive the world differently (thank goodness). So in other words, ANY kind of third-party testing/comparison/evaluation is inherently flawed and you should only buy things that make YOU happy or satisfied, no matter what anyone else says or measures. There is NO science or religion that can replace your own ear/brain and how it evaluates something within your personal frame of reference. Unfortunately, we live in a world of external irrational influences that prey on our minds and continually threaten to undermine our independant judgement. I would only use reviews or bench testing as a guide to something being really bad/faulty/unreliable. If you don't believe that cables (or, more significantly, the design, quality of materials and topology used in the active components of a system) can possibly make any difference to what you hear that's fine. Although, logically that would imply that the first amplifier ever made was good enough... Your gasoline analogy is not correct. If the pipe is too wide/narrow, kinked or if the inner surface is not formed properly, turbulent flow and irregular pressure can result that may affect the performance of the downstream engine components - and ultimately the car itself. It's not that the nature of gasoline is changing. You are describing a mechanical system not an electrical one. In an electrical system there are other factors to take into account that can indeed change the nature of the gasoline - RFI, EMI etc etc can all interact with and thus change the actual waveform. So unfortunately, as any second year EE student would know and any AV professional does know, it's not just about LCR. The materials, quality of construction and efficiency of shielding all play a part in preserving the integrity of the complex signals passing through the cable. Any cable has the potential to degrade the signals - the trick is to minimise the degradation. Alternatively, you can design cables with a suitable LCR to act as a crude tone control...you'll certainly hear the difference with those! As usual, YMMV. Richidoo - looks like you better treasure those SACD's you've got coz I can't see a massive release program on the horizon. It looks like hi-res consumer audio formats are turning into a dead duck from the industry's point of view (IMHO). I guess the problem is twofold...actually 16/44.1 can be pretty good and whilst SACD/DVD-A are clearly capable of more accurate reproduction, do we really care? - a silver disc is just a silver disc and we've already got them. The general perception is simply ho-hum, a better mousetrap. Really a radically different physical format with better ergonomics and a different cost base was required to make the world sit up and take notice ... oh, and what's all this MP3/iPod stuff anyway? -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
The dynamic range of 16-bit recordings is 96 dB, which is readily obtainable these days (that wasn't the case in the early 80's). The dynamic range of 24-bit recordings is theoretically 144 dB! There are probably very few, if any, natural recordings (i.e. not completely synthesized) that have this dynamic range, and all but the most expensive playback systems cannot reproduce this range. DVD took off because even 50 year old t.v.'s could show a dramatic picture improvement over VHS. The problem with SACD/DVD-A is that our stereos can't readily take advantage of the new format (excluding multi-channel, which hasn't really caught on for other reasons). These hi-rez music formats were dead in the water ever since they were initiated. I thank my lucky stars that I never spent big bucks upgrading to these formats. Maybe they were right all along, CD: perfect sound forever. (Well, good enough sound forever.) -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Phil Leigh Wrote: BB, The point I was trying to make is exactly what I wrote... that DB testing does not discriminate between better and different - not that it doesn't discriminate between different and identical! different vs better is all in the mind (regardless of the methodology of the comparison). Phil, regarding the point of different vs. identical, I stand corrected, perhaps I should read (and listen more carefully) and I apologize for mis-reading that. Phil Leigh Wrote: As for hearing mechanisms...actually the ear is an astonishingly sophisticated transducer coupled to an analogue computer of (so far) indescribable complexity. Other than in quite broad terms we all perceive the world differently (thank goodness). So in other words, ANY kind of third-party testing/comparison/evaluation is inherently flawed and you should only buy things that make YOU happy or satisfied, no matter what anyone else says or measures. There is NO science or religion that can replace your own ear/brain and how it evaluates something within your personal frame of reference. Unfortunately, we live in a world of external irrational influences that prey on our minds and continually threaten to undermine our independant judgement. I would only use reviews or bench testing as a guide to something being really bad/faulty/unreliable. Well stated. I couldn't have said it better. My point was that the hearing mechanism is delicate and that our hearing rolls off with age. For example, I don't think that anyone needs tweeters that go up to 30KHz, when most of us can hear much past 16KHz, as least I can't, but I'm not a young kid any more, I just look like one. We agree the magic of hearing happens in the mind. That little hammer, stirrup and drum still seems pretty clunky and fragile to me. That doesn't make it any less astonishig in my view. Phil Leigh Wrote: If you don't believe that cables (or, more significantly, the design, quality of materials and topology used in the active components of a system) can possibly make any difference to what you hear that's fine. Although, logically that would imply that the first amplifier ever made was good enough... Well, we might have to part ways on some points Phil. Sure active components can make a difference, like a good driver in a well designed loudspeker enclosure - man can that make a difference! As for cables, you've got me wrong there. The cables should have good LCR and sheilding characteristics for the application. That might mean you need heavier guage, better-shielded cables than typical zip or lamp chord, but there's no need to pay a lot of money for exotic speaker cables, that's just a racket. I don't understand how the first amplifier ever made being good enough follows logically from this. That seems to be a complete non-sequior. Perhaps you can explain. For those that want this de-bunked, recommend Roger Russels article at http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#reviewdares. Roger is the Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Laboratory and the originator of McIntosh Loudspekers. I quote from the article: When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they can hear improvements in their wire, often arrived at by making listening tests without adequate controls or understanding of the problems involved. One of the prime tools in creating such a faith for the average consumer is by capitalizing on fear and ignorance as in many other things that arent readily apparent. There is fear that the wire currently in use is not good enough. There is ignorance because most people do not have scientific knowledge in this area and lack adequate measuring equipment to prove otherwise. That's my bottom line. Phil Leigh Wrote: Your gasoline analogy is not correct. If the pipe is too wide/narrow, kinked or if the inner surface is not formed properly, turbulent flow and irregular pressure can result that may affect the performance of the downstream engine components - and ultimately the car itself. It's not that the nature of gasoline is changing. You are describing a mechanical system not an electrical one. In an electrical system there are other factors to take into account that can indeed change the nature of the gasoline - RFI, EMI etc etc can all interact with and thus change the actual waveform. So unfortunately, as any second year EE student would know and any AV professional does know, it's not just about LCR. The materials, quality of construction and efficiency of shielding all play a part in preserving the integrity of the complex signals passing through the cable. Any cable has the potential to degrade the signals - the trick is to minimise the degradation. Alternatively, you can design cables with a suitable LCR to act as a crude tone control...you'll certainly hear the difference with those!
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Phil Leigh Wrote: -cut- 3) My wiring is very good so obviously my imagination must also be good. Let's try the converse argument - if you can't hear any improvement, your system (or ear/brain interface) must be defective... 4) Amongst many other things (too boring to discuss again) DB testing doesn't discriminate between better and different. Anyway, beyond entry-level all CDP's, DACs, amps are rather good these days...the two biggest audible impacts will be in changing speakers or applying room correction. Without RC you're not hearing anything like what the artist intended anyway, so no amount of tweaking cables or even major components will help. -cut- ... Of course DB testing discriminates between different! It is a basic scientific procedure to ensure perceptive bias does not enter into a result. better is in the mind of the receiver - but often times that better goes away under DB conditions. Mr. Fredrickj is exactly correct - this is why audiophile reviews will not touch this. They rely on suckers who don't understand what a second year EE student does, namely that anyone who pays big bukcs $$ for power cords or cables is a fool. The circuitry doesn't care how the power is transported anymore than your care engine cares what kind of hose the gasoline came in. The only thing to worry about with cabling are capacitance, resistance and inductance. For longer runs a heavier guage cable is required and shielded cables for noisy environments. Very simple. However, Mr. Leigh is correct in my view on one point: it is indeed about the ear/brain interface. As you all will know, the ears are rather clunky mechanisms that send electrical signals to the brain where they are interpreted and invariably that mechanism falls off in effectiveness as we age. In other words, hearing is in the brain. This is the same brain that decided to purchase $5,000 cables in a fancy presentation box, so if that brain is alredy convinced it will hear a difference it will! That same brain will not be willing to participate in a double blind test of that same cable because it will find that the sound cannot in all probablitiy be distiguished from run-of-the mill zip cord for 19 cents a foot. Believe what you want, hear what you want if it makes you happy. Believe that the world is 6000 years old and that the president is a great man. Whatever floats your boat. Just understand that there are people out there that take advantage of ignorance or delusion in the marketplace and in politics and people get taken for their money every day. BB P.S. The power supply is just fine for the little box fer cryin' out loud. Just as designed. Help me out here Slim Devices! Jeez! -- buddhabreath buddhabreath's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5743 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
I feel that SB3 with a linear power supply, played through a full range (30-30k or better) very dynamic speaker/amp combo is hard to beat. You won't hear the benefits of the PS upgrade unless your system is transparent and dynamic enough to allow the greater dynamic range of the upgrade to show through. But this is the audiophile forum, and so some of us do actually have systems sensitive enough to reveal a large improvement by canning the stock wart for a 5V/3A linear PS. If you have a mid-fi rig like a good receiver, the improvement you will hear will be in the smoothness and more natural sound on acoustic instruments. The dynamics and ultra lows will not be evident and so that diminishes the value of the upgrade for some people. It doesn't mean that the upgrade is not improving the quality of the input signal though. SB is vastly better than my $250 Samsung universal player on CDs, but the Samsung does sound pretty darn good on SACDs. I can only imagine what a decent SACD player is like. Rich -- richidoo richidoo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3097 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
fredrickj Wrote: I should point out that my testing (blind) of the stock SB3 compared to a CD transport thru a DAC, was testing the digital out only. I didn't buy the SB3 for its DAC. The ps upgrade may well make sense for the DAC but agian, it didn't test the DAC output. One point here is that, according to something Sean Adams (SD CEO) said a while back, the PS upgrade is more likely to affect the digital out than the analogue. That's because the DAC gets its power after several steps of regulation, starting (IIRC) with 14V to power the display. So the wallwart is several steps removed from the DAC power. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
For some reason, laws against fraud and false advertising seem to miss the audio industry for a mile. I'd love to see a parts list and English language explanation. And, in fact, Stereophile had a bit full of panic a while back when the New York State AG's office started to look into some of these issues. It really is all quite shameless. -- highdudgeon SB3, Lavry DA10, Sony DVP 555es, Bel Canto Pre2, Carver Sunfire, Rane DEQ60L, Harbeth Monitor 40s, ACI Force subs highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Phil Leigh Wrote: Well Fredrick...you've managed to open more cans of worms than a major explosion in a worm-canning factory...in one post!. 1) why do you own the ridiculously expensive Audio Note? - did you audition it first? 2)Then either most people you know have substandard hearing (unlikely) or your system is not as resolving as you believe it to be. I think the SB3 sounds BETTER than many top-end CDP's via its digital i/f. 3) My wiring is very good so obviously my imagination must also be good. Let's try the converse argument - if you can't hear any improvement, your system (or ear/brain interface) must be defective... 4) Amongst many other things (too boring to discuss again) DB testing doesn't discriminate between better and different. Anyway, beyond entry-level all CDP's, DACs, amps are rather good these days...the two biggest audible impacts will be in changing speakers or applying room correction. Without RC you're not hearing anything like what the artist intended anyway, so no amount of tweaking cables or even major components will help. 5)Why would a bunch of speaker designers care about the SB? - surely to them its just another source. IF, as you assert, it's no different to a CDP (and I notice that you carefully avoid mentioning any specific examples) I can't imagine why they would be even remotely interested? I didn't mean to rant but posts along the lines of I'm right and the rest of you are deaf aren't very helpful. It's hardly a scientific argument... I should point out that my testing (blind) of the stock SB3 compared to a CD transport thru a DAC, was testing the digital out only. I didn't buy the SB3 for its DAC. The ps upgrade may well make sense for the DAC but agian, it didn't test the DAC output. That said I pretty much agree with you on most points. My equipment and my hearing are variables to be considered. It might be wise however to test the results yourself before assumming my hearing or equipment accounts for the inability to hear the difference between the stock SB3 and a high quality CD transport through several high end DAC's. My point was not to challange anyone but to affirm the claim that anyone with a good DAC can now load all their music on their computer and listen to it without any compromise in sound, with a stock SB3. No need to go out and spend more money on upgrades. Unless of course one just wants to spend money for something bigger. -- fredrickj fredrickj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5645 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Well Fredrick...you've managed to open more cans of worms than a major explosion in a worm-canning factory...in one post!. 1) why do you own the ridiculously expensive Audio Note? - did you audition it first? 2)Then either most people you know have substandard hearing (unlikely) or your system is not as resolving as you believe it to be. I think the SB3 sounds BETTER than many top-end CDP's via its digital i/f. 3) My wiring is very good so obviously my imagination must also be good. Let's try the converse argument - if you can't hear any improvement, your system (or ear/brain interface) must be defective... 4) Amongst many other things (too boring to discuss again) DB testing doesn't discriminate between better and different. Anyway, beyond entry-level all CDP's, DACs, amps are rather good these days...the two biggest audible impacts will be in changing speakers or applying room correction. Without RC you're not hearing anything like what the artist intended anyway, so no amount of tweaking cables or even major components will help. 5)Why would a bunch of speaker designers care about the SB? - surely to them its just another source. IF, as you assert, it's no different to a CDP (and I notice that you carefully avoid mentioning any specific examples) I can't imagine why they would be even remotely interested? I didn't mean to rant but posts along the lines of I'm right and the rest of you are deaf aren't very helpful. It's hardly a scientific argument... -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Again...the audiophile version of the Squeezebox, which will be sold through dealers, is due out in the not-too-distant future. I think this is a semi-open secret at this point. Salient items are a digital input, improved DAC, power supply,etc. I'm sure it will be in a sleek, sexy, metallic case, to help justify a far higher price point. So, I guess what I'm saying is this: before spending hundreds or thousands on mods, why not wait a few months? In the meantime, the SB3 alone can be quite satisfactory. You won't be pulling out hairs over poor sound quality. Much of this is subjective, of course, but there are those on this forum, inlcuding me (please, no flames, no comments about my non-revealing system, etc.), who have found the differences between the SB3 and a high quality external DAC and the SB3 alone to be minimal. Ditto for power supplies. The differences ARE there, to be sure, but the price per square foot, as it were, is at Manhattan levels. So...if Slim Devices, who are obviously a bunch of very smart, very savvy, and very competent people, come out with an audiophile friendly version, I think it would be worth checking out. Fewer boxes, nicer design, equal or less money. -- highdudgeon SB3, Lavry DA10, Sony DVP 555es, Bel Canto Pre2, Carver Sunfire, Rane DEQ60L, Harbeth Monitor 40s, ACI Force subs highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Yes HD...you are probably right. Interesting times ahead! -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Maybe we need a Speculation and Rumors forum like they have over at AppleNova. (He says with a toothy grin.) -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
opaqueice Wrote: What do you think of the Red Wine Audio mods? There was a thread (over at audiocircle maybe?) a while back comparing Bolder SB mods to RWA which concluded that the RWA mod sounded (slightly) better than the Bolder. Personally I would hesitate to buy a product from someone that markets such things as Bybee quantum purifiers, as Bolder does, but hey... FWIW the review was quite some time ago. The owner of both units (Zybar) has since sold his RWA SB. He has upgraded his power supply a couple of times and now has one with all silver wiring and 4) Bybee quantum purifiers inside ;-) He is using the SB2 from the digital output into a TacT preamp/EQ. His speakers are Salk HT-3s. He has Channel Islands D-200 mono-blocks and just received a BAT VK-500 amp. If you wish to hear about a couple of direct comparisons between RWA and BOLDER modded SBs with analog output mods, you can contact Double Ugly and cryotweaks at AC. Both have owned or own RWA analog modded and battery powered SB. Both have compared them to a BOLDER modded unit with BOLDER PS. -- Wayne1 Wayne1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
opaqueice Wrote: I'm guessing (from the name and location) you're from Bolder Cable? Would you care to comment on those Bybees? I know it's a bit off-topic for this thread, but this (from http://www.bybeetech.com/ourtech.asp) is pure nonsense (and I _do_ know what I'm talking about here). There simply ain't no such thing as quantum noise energy - and that sets off my snake oil alarm. I do not care to comment on how Mr. Bybee chooses to describe his product. I do know that they DO change the sound of circuits that they are used in. I happen to like the changes. So do a goodly number of folk who have tried them. Others do not. -- Wayne1 Wayne1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
It has nothing to do with how he chooses to describe his widgets. The fact is, and I can also speak here with a respectable background in physics, it is pure baloney. Of course, you are free to like what you hear. People also like Tice Clocks and Mpingo disks and all the rest. There was, too, that lovely Stereophile account of a simple test that amounted to placing a pizza box support, I think painted silver, on top of a CD player. Listeners, prompted to the magical quality of the tweak, loved what they heard. The power of psychology... -- highdudgeon SB3, Lavry DA10, Sony DVP 555es, Bel Canto Pre2, Carver Sunfire, Rane DEQ60L, Harbeth Monitor 40s, ACI Force subs highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Anyone ever dissect one of these purifiers? I suppose at $150 (or whatever) a pop maybe not, but at least hook one up to a meter... I'll bet there's just some material in there with a bit of resistance, maybe some inductance - just enough to screw up the frequency response a bit and change the sound slightly (or maybe not, given the silver-pizza-box effect!). In any case, if I were selling (or re-selling) these things I'd be just a little bit catious. There are laws to protect people against fraud and false advertising. Irrespective of whether or not this thing improves sound, that description of how it functions might raise some eyebrows -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
95bcwh Wrote: I have already had my SB3 fully modded (analog + digital + battery power supply) by RedWineAudio, too late to change for now. But I plan to buy another unit when SB4 comes out...I will then ask Wayne to mod it for me. What do you think of the Red Wine Audio mods? There was a thread (over at audiocircle maybe?) a while back comparing Bolder SB mods to RWA which concluded that the RWA mod sounded (slightly) better than the Bolder. Personally I would hesitate to buy a product from someone that markets such things as Bybee quantum purifiers, as Bolder does, but hey... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Well I think I'm getting closer to the SB now. Thanks for your input guys. I just bought myself an external DAC (an MHDT Paradisea) and I've done some testing against my CPD (an Arcam CD23T). Using the Arcam as a full unit transport/DAC it is significantly better then using my Paradisea fed by an optical out of my Audigy soundcard. However, when I use the Arcam as transport, then the Paradisea DAC is different but as nice if not nicer then the Arcam's internal DAC. This demonstrate that using my portable PC with Audigy soundcard as a transport is no good against a reputable CDP transport. So I have to get a new transport that will be at least equivalent to my CDP and hopefully the SB3 will do the job! -- Loftprojection Loftprojection's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5525 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
squeezeme Wrote: I went for the full analogue mod with platinum caps etc. I am using a DIY power supply measuring excactly 5v out. This does improve the sound slightly, it tightens the bass and smooths the highs, but in comparison to the mods it is minimal. With the modded unit every aspect is improved, it really is beyond what you would think the SB is capable of. Bite the bullet and get the mods and power supply. I have already had my SB3 fully modded (analog + digital + battery power supply) by RedWineAudio, too late to change for now. But I plan to buy another unit when SB4 comes out...I will then ask Wayne to mod it for me. -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
95bcwh Wrote: Patrick, just curious what mod have you done to your SB3 to make it sound so good? We just use the 'transport' element of the SB. DAC, clocks, PSU, analogue and (coaxial) digital output circuitry are all new boards. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
I have been using my Bolder modded SB2 for 2-3 weeks now and i am astounded in the improvment in every aspect, I no longer use my Marantz CDP that is better sounding than the stock SB. I use a Naim Nait 5i amp and Dynaudio audience 62's and the quality is something i didn't think possble. I am not using the digital out as I don't think it can improve the sound enough to warrant bying a DAC. I also use a linear supply which is a very minor upgrade compared to the modded SB -- squeezeme squeezeme's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1106 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
squeezeme Wrote: I have been using my Bolder modded SB2 for 2-3 weeks now and i am astounded in the improvment in every aspect, I no longer use my Marantz CDP that is better sounding than the stock SB. I use a Naim Nait 5i amp and Dynaudio audience 62's and the quality is something i didn't think possble. I am not using the digital out as I don't think it can improve the sound enough to warrant bying a DAC. I also use a linear supply which is a very minor upgrade compared to the modded SB Which bolder mod did you go for? You sounded like you're not using Bolder's power supply, but I thought the vast improvement in SQ is due to the power supply? -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
I went for the full analogue mod with platinum caps etc. I am using a DIY power supply measuring excactly 5v out. This does improve the sound slightly, it tightens the bass and smooths the highs, but in comparison to the mods it is minimal. With the modded unit every aspect is improved, it really is beyond what you would think the SB is capable of. Bite the bullet and get the mods and power supply. -- squeezeme squeezeme's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1106 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Loftprojection Wrote: Well when I'm talking about comparing the SB to CDP it's not as a transport only. I mean more like a stock of fully analog modified SB versus a CDP (transport/DAC). Like you I'm quite convinced that the SB as a transport with or without mods is probably a great tool that can match a lot of CDP as transport only if you have an external DAC. It's when you use the SB as a whole that I'm not sure it can compete with good CDP. My SB2 easily bested the sound quality of both my Sony CDP's 9000ES and 999ES...mid level units for sure, but I was really shocked at how noticeable an improvement the SB2 was. I sold both CDP's over the last 6 months and invested the $$$ in oop DCC discs on eBay. ;) -- hal9000 hal9000's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=983 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Patrick Dixon Wrote: I have actually done comparative demos for people with SB2/3s and external DACs against our 'modded' SB+. In all cases the SB+ wins hands down. External DACs included examples from Benchmark, Meridian and various NOS types. YMMV. Patrick, just curious what mod have you done to your SB3 to make it sound so good? -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
I'd go along with that Azur comparison - maybe even a bit higher up the food chain for older CDP's. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
I'd been using an all marantz combo (66 KI SIG amp and matching 63 KI SIG cdp)quite happily, but the amount of discs overtaking my room was starting to irritate me, which is why I went for the sb3/qnap combo. I've been using an m-audio superdac between amp and sb3 and just sent that off to have some mods done to that (all the basic op amps and circuit board upgraded basically!). I'd love to send off the sb3 to somewhere like bolder, but not sure of the shipping costs from here in the uk, plus theres something like an 8 week waiting list anyway! Cheers... -- davidcotton davidcotton's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4588 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
Phil Leigh Wrote: On the contrary, I feel that the SB can exceed the capabilities of many exalted CDP's - or at least their transports. There are numerous good engineering reasons why this might theoretically be the case, but at the end of the day your ears (brain) have to decide. I know many will scoff at the SB beats Naim/dCS/Esoteric/(insert your fave transport here) hypothesis, but I've owned and been lucky enough to borrow many of the top drawer transports and I'm personally never going back... Well when I'm talking about comparing the SB to CDP it's not as a transport only. I mean more like a stock of fully analog modified SB versus a CDP (transport/DAC). Like you I'm quite convinced that the SB as a transport with or without mods is probably a great tool that can match a lot of CDP as transport only if you have an external DAC. It's when you use the SB as a whole that I'm not sure it can compete with good CDP. -- Loftprojection Loftprojection's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5525 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
As a full solution I would rate the Squeezebox as a good quality mid priced player such as the Cambridge Audio Azur 640. It wins for me in it's flexibility and user friendly features. -- dlite dlite's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4885 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB mod on not mod, what to expect vs CD player?
On the contrary, I feel that the SB can exceed the capabilities of many exalted CDP's - or at least their transports. There are numerous good engineering reasons why this might theoretically be the case, but at the end of the day your ears (brain) have to decide. I know many will scoff at the SB beats Naim/dCS/Esoteric/(insert your fave transport here) hypothesis, but I've owned and been lucky enough to borrow many of the top drawer transports and I'm personally never going back... On modding, I think the linear PSU is a minor improvement to the SB transport - not earth shattering (but worth doing). I don't feel the need to spend £'00's on exotic capacitors or digital transformers - and bearing in mind I am not using the SB DAC, there's only so much that can be modded on the transport side... I am so happy with the sound of my system now, I'm spending money on source material (CD's for ripping) and backup disks and system remotes. For me the two biggest changes I ever made to my sound quality/enjoyment were (in order)fully active speakers and room correction. After that it's all been increasingly thin icing on top of a very nice cake. YMMV of course. Phil -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=23948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
