Re: perfect orchard -The soil
Allan-- Do you mean compost tea made with fish and yucca used as microbial foods? For starters recall that I am quoting Elaine here from something she wrote last spring. I believe it's accurate, but My impression was that adding fish and yucca to your mix AFTER the tea is brewed will move up the process of breaking up hard pan. As we know, adding too much (if any) fish during the compost tea brewing can cause your tea to go anaerobic. For grapes in foliar feeding, I add a little fish after brewing to provide an extra N and calcium kick. For a soil drench, extra fish added after tea brewing should be even better. The calcium in the fish helps that aspect. It's my understanding that compost teas like this can be applied weekly through the winter season, as long as the ground is NOT frozen. Yes, this is my understanding as well. As I understand it, it is kosher to deep mulch the soil you are remdiating, so, regardless of the ambient temperatures, the microbes can work through the winter. Yes, that's a good point--that you can brew the compost tea and apply during winter so long as the mulch keeps the ground from freezing. I like to use barrel compost in my compost teas, also, so the effect of the compost preps is also felt in the soil. Yes, I just purchased some BC from JPI and will give it a try. Regarding the preps and their effectiveness, there are lots more knowledgable people on this list. I am just getting started. Dorothy __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: Perfect Orchard -soil test
Per, if you are going to start using the biodynamic remedies or compost teas it is my recommendation to not place too much emphasis on a soil test. The increase in biological activity will unlock bound nutrients and minerals. This will manifest in an increase in natural ground cover diversity; different native grasses and clovers will spring up and grow where none have been before. This is something I have observed time and again in vineyards, pastureland, turfgrass, and farms. The use of hardwood chips, [ramial chipped wood, put that in search engine] is a great promoter of highly fungal soils mimicking ancient forest soil that has a long term storage of nutrients for grapevines. Just start spraying teas and bd remedies, keep this up through the winter so long as it is not frozen, muddy or too nasty, you can't go wrong... sstorch
Re: Perfect Orchard ?? Brookside Lab
Dear Per, Here are some address details for the Brookside Laboritories:- e-mail address for the brookside lab director Mark Flock is [EMAIL PROTECTED] . snail-mail P.O. Box 456 New Knoxville, OH 45871 fax (419) 753 2949. I hope this information will help you along the way. Peter. - Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? Brookside Lab Brookside Lab, can you please provide contact address/email Thanks Per Garp/ NH ( sorry i'm running 500+ email late) - Original Message - From: Peter Michael Bacchus pbaBrookside [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 04:49 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? Dear Per Now that you have given your location and soil description it is easier to make a suggestion. Have your soil chemistry analyzed by Brookside Lab. or similar then work on balancing your cation exchange to suit grape vines. Drain as mentioned and form up windrows to plant on. grape roots like to be warm. I would be a bit cautious about sheep and goat manure as they tend to make the ground harder, or at least that is my experience. Horse manure has the most soil loosening effect, followed by cow. This is of course to be composted and prepped. Then be generous with the Horn manure and barrel compost. You need to get the soil life going which means you may need to drain to avoid waterlogging at any time. If you really do need to loosen the subsoil mechanically I suggest that you look at gelignite, I have seen it used to good effect under trees that were stunted by hard pan. In this way the topsoil would remain on top. Go and have a look at what Steven Storch is doing and perhaps get some advice from him. Best of luck, Peter. - Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? I appreciate this comments, We are here permanently, Hardpan is very common in the Eastern US, in NH winery's are Uncommon. Gypsum has been suggested in the past but only a hand full of it in for each grape planting. Hardpan in the NH is a sand like product with a bunch of stones large to small, it act much like quicksand when water soaked, water have a hard time penetrate it and that's way I need to drain my fields as grapes do not like wet feet's. We do not have any clay, as far as what I have seen. On top of the Hard pan we have 1 to 2 feet's of good top soil Some time more some time less pending on location and past cow manure deposit. We have consider ripping the hardpan whit a 2-3 foot Hardpan buster type of equipment but have fund that it is harder to do a good job of that type of equipment, a 3x3 dug ditch seems more functional. ( But more costly) and then the gypsum can do it's job !? I plan to cover the rows with wood chips, (and add goat and sheep manure)as a soil help and to prevent grass and competition. (I like to see chickens and Guinea fouls in the fields) Please describe the full BD cycle. Thanks Per Garp/NH
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Allan Balliett wrote: Is it only oil that the US is after or is it power over all decisions made by anyone in all facets of life? Look up your own pipe, James. Without enthusiastic allies like Australia and the UK, even Geo W. would be a little more cautious about making the world safe for multi-nationals, eh? -Allan If it happens, Iraq will be the 44th regime change the US has manipulated since WWII. Most have been without allies. Nor is the present 'campaign' about multi-nationals unless they are US-owned. Or 'weapons of mass destruction'. Try 'wresting control of Earth's remaining dregs of oil from their rightful owners' instead. Or 'racng headlong for world supremacy'. Or 'diverting attention from the parlous state of the economy'. Roger --
Re: perfect orchard -The soil
Per-- I echo the advice to get a good soil test. Then follow recommendations of someone who knows how to read it. Taking advice from local farmers can (doesn't have to be) hazardous because most of them farm conventionally and don't have the same concerns that organic growers do. For example, I followed similar advice from local growers to apply lime several years ago. The problem is that applying the local lime intensified my out of whack calcium/magnesium ratio. I am still struggling with this problem. I am spraying fish, compost tea and using lots of mulch as one way of responding to these problems. The hardpan interferes with your vine root growth. Adding wood chips might be great, but it can tie up the N in your soil until they decompose. This could slow your vine growth while its going on. Several months ago someone on this list posted a link to an article from a Candadian University about chipping twigs and small branches from deciduous trees and using this as a soil fertility booster. As I recall, the concentration of N in these wood chips prevented the problem of slow decomposition. I would like to try this, but it would require another piece of expensive equipment. : Dorothy --- COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perfect Orchard -The soil Is it a problem having mix top soil with hardpan sandy soil ? If it is a problem what do you do to fix it ?? And after adding calcium (local farmer recommend 2 ton to the acre) do we need to add this stuff every year ? In this perfect orchard what do we do ? with mulch and added green manure/compost ? I like to add 2/4 inch of wood chips in a strip 3 foot wide to promote soil life and to limited weed growing ? Per Garp?NH Please bear with me I'm many emails behind. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Hi all Sorry, I enjoy a Political discussion normally, but in MY/our all Perfect Orchard there is no room for Politics and Bushes. Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 04:47 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium Allan Balliett wrote: Is it only oil that the US is after or is it power over all decisions made by anyone in all facets of life? Look up your own pipe, James. Without enthusiastic allies like Australia and the UK, even Geo W. would be a little more cautious about making the world safe for multi-nationals, eh? -Allan If it happens, Iraq will be the 44th regime change the US has manipulated since WWII. Most have been without allies. Nor is the present 'campaign' about multi-nationals unless they are US-owned. Or 'weapons of mass destruction'. Try 'wresting control of Earth's remaining dregs of oil from their rightful owners' instead. Or 'racng headlong for world supremacy'. Or 'diverting attention from the parlous state of the economy'. Roger --
Re: perfect orchard -The soil
Happy Holiday's chipping twigs and small branches from deciduous trees and using this as a soil fertility booster. It was posted on the ORGANICVITICULTURE and I'm basing my idee of wood chips composting from that source and more. Then follow recommendations of someone who knows how to read it. Will the soil test give this recommendation's or who will have the knowledge in my part of the US, NH ?? The hardpan interferes with your vine root growth. Yea, that's way we are digging trenches, will microbes have the ability to loosen up the hardpan and or keeping it so rots can penetrate it ? And will the wood chip composting promote microbes growth ? Witch BD prep or in what order and way does the BD prep be applied to the soil or the compost ?? Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Dorothy O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 09:58 AM Subject: Re: perfect orchard -The soil Per-- I echo the advice to get a good soil test. Then follow recommendations of someone who knows how to read it. Taking advice from local farmers can (doesn't have to be) hazardous because most of them farm conventionally and don't have the same concerns that organic growers do. For example, I followed similar advice from local growers to apply lime several years ago. The problem is that applying the local lime intensified my out of whack calcium/magnesium ratio. I am still struggling with this problem. I am spraying fish, compost tea and using lots of mulch as one way of responding to these problems. The hardpan interferes with your vine root growth. Adding wood chips might be great, but it can tie up the N in your soil until they decompose. This could slow your vine growth while its going on. Several months ago someone on this list posted a link to an article from a Candadian University about chipping twigs and small branches from deciduous trees and using this as a soil fertility booster. As I recall, the concentration of N in these wood chips prevented the problem of slow decomposition. I would like to try this, but it would require another piece of expensive equipment. : Dorothy --- COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perfect Orchard -The soil Is it a problem having mix top soil with hardpan sandy soil ? If it is a problem what do you do to fix it ?? And after adding calcium (local farmer recommend 2 ton to the acre) do we need to add this stuff every year ? In this perfect orchard what do we do ? with mulch and added green manure/compost ? I like to add 2/4 inch of wood chips in a strip 3 foot wide to promote soil life and to limited weed growing ? Per Garp?NH Please bear with me I'm many emails behind. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: perfect orchard -The soil
Per-- Elaine I. contends that compost tea, liquid fish and yucca extract will break up a hardpan in less than 6 months. So spraying that mixture on the soil or into the trough should help alot. I know next to nothing about the BD preps, just following along and learning from this list. Dorothy __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Dear Roger, You state, 500, 501 and the other preparations are miracles-in-being whose greatness, despite the passage of time, has in no way been fully realised. Similarly we have hardly explored the energies available to us naturally (and I don't mean fossil fuels). The opportunity to do so - indeed, I feel I should say 'necessity' - is upon us. From now until the bombs start falling, and never mind that the time of year or month is 'incorrect', make preparations for the future. After the last desperate empirical doomed-to-failure grasp of the 'western' nations at world supremacy is over, we will all be too busy chopping wood and carrying water! I think that you have hit the nail right on the head. As long as there is cheap fossil fuel, and most of the American people are prepared to sell their birthright and also the birthright of every person on the planet, for access to sharing the dream, of GW, Cheney and Rumsfeld and company, of total world domination there is not much chance for anyone who does not share that dream with them. There is not a single facet of life over the whole planet that the US does not try to influence or control in one way or another. For a country that started off with such high ideals and freedoms to set out to take the freedom of billions of people from them is for me incomprehensible. Is it only oil that the US is after or is it power over all decisions made by anyone in all facets of life? It will be really amazing to see what happens world wide when the bombs start dropping. To me the only honourable outcome for this war is George. W. Bush and Saddam Hussein to have a pistol duel in prime news time, with the winner to have a regime change in the others country. It would make a great New Years Day spectacular on CNN. Have a great Christmas and dont let the great American spin doctors stuff up your Christmas. James Hedley
ALBRECHT LAB was: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? Brookside Lab
Per - Check will Joel Simmons of EarthWorks, outside of Easton, PA. He's been doing Albrecht consulting for years and has just opened his own lab, which I understand is an upgrade over what either Brookside or Perry are currently offering. (You'll have to talk to Joel to get the details, but it's my understanding that it was disappointment with the prevailing Albrecht labs that led Joel to open his own.) Make sure they know that you are looking for an ag interpretation for your samples. http://www.soilfirst.com/soilfirst_frame.html EarthWorks Natural Organic Products 6574 S. Delaware Drive P.O. Box 278K Martins Creek, PA 18063 1 800 732-TURF
perfect orchard -The soil
Perfect Orchard -The soil Is it a problem having mix top soil with hardpan sandy soil ? If it is a problem what do you do to fix it ?? And after adding calcium (local farmer recommend 2 ton to the acre) do we need to add this stuff every year ? In this perfect orchard what do we do ? with mulch and added green manure/compost ? I like to add 2/4 inch of wood chips in a strip 3 foot wide to promote soil life and to limited weed growing ? Per Garp?NH Please bear with me I'm many emails behind.
Perfect Orchard -soil test
Perfect Orchard -soil test What do you need to look for in a soil test, and why ? looking for an ag interpretation Per Garp/NH
Re: Perfect Orchard -soil test
Perfect Orchard -soil test What do you need to look for in a soil test, and why ? looking for an ag interpretation Per Garp/NH Per - For a literal answer to your question, Go to the EarthWorks site I gave you the url for earlier. There you can find both a blank soil test form (results ie what's quantified) and, I believe, the interpretive commentary.
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Lloyd Charles wrote: But I do know that 3.8 grams of BD501 mixed with 34 litres of fresh water and potentised, and sprayed on one hectare of degraded farmland in the evening when the land is drawing its nutrients and energies back into itself, will unlock and catalyse natural minerals and vitamins. The same mixture, sprayed on african lovegrass in the heat of the day, renders the seed unviable. Instantly. This is unconventional usage of 501 - can you just answer yes or no if what you've written is what you did please. Also what was the effect on other plants in the pasture? Hardly unconventional when the whole of BD agriculture is regarded as unconventional by mainstream farming and general communities. Unusual, untried, untested, legitimate development, extension, pushing the envelope, better descriptions i think. very busy so not much time. Liquid 501 potentised by hedley hedley supplied in 20 to 1 concentration was mixed with african lovegrass pepper (potentised on site by hh in mid oct) hand sprayed from a 15 litre clean backpack unit directly on to one patch of seeding plants. Actual (ie powdered) 501 supplied by BACA a year ago was mixed with AL pepper at proportionate rate (to match 3.8 grams to 34 litres), stirred in recommended manner, sprayed from the same backpack in same manner on a separate patch. Lovegrass was late growing and a healthy green with full seed. Pendulum questioning indicated result would be instant and effects visible within 15 minutes. We did not believe that was possible but it was true. Have 'during' and 'after' photos in digital format but unfortunately not 'before' (was going to take some of another patch, untreated, but got too hot (me, that is.) Time of spray was mid afternoon, temp about 33, place Dalgety TSR. more later Merry Christmas to everyone Roger Pye Robin Tennant-Wood Canberra Australia
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Allan Balliett wrote: . . . . Pfeiffer, in practice, however, was open to the use of chemical fertilizers to get the soil productive enough to produce cover crops that could have benefit if once turned into the soil. (A person starting a bd project on an abused piece of ground - - as almost every square foot of american ground is EVEN much of what is covered by forest today - - may need to go to extremes to create those first few crops that the well established german farmers steiner was speaking to during the lectures did not have to) *** I have serious doubts about the The Plan, the Consultant commented. There are too many variables and complications. For instance, there is a likelihood for difficulties to arise during the several billion years it will take to get the planet into the right position and prepare it for introduction of the trial species. More importantly there is the obtuse energy / nutrition system. Soils, plants including trees, mammals, insects, birds, microbial life, bacteria and so on will all have adapted to each other and to prevailing planetary, cosmic and weather influences. Projections show that the good health of all the above will rely on complex groupings of minerals, proteins, vitamins, enzymes, acid and alkaline fluids. As will the introduced species. For example, to clear wastes from organs and tissues will require sodium working with potassium, and balanced digestion will need calcium in conjunction with sodium and phosphorus. All in precise quantities and natural states, of course. Potable water, nitrogen, oxygen and trace elements complete the picture. Previous experiments with this species have demonstrated their ego intolerance, lack of control, greed and inability to let well alone. The potential for them to stuff the whole thing up arouses in me grave fears for them, the planet and the universe. His boss smiled enigmatically. Well, it is the best my advisers can come up with so we will have to wait and see, won't we? Press the button! A muffled WHOOMPH signalled the start of The Plan; despite his misgivings, the Consultant watched in awe as stars, planets, comets and other universal elements began receding from the centre of the cosmos, accelerating as their distance from it and each other increased. *** Several billions of years later, and 200,000 after our ancestors first raised their heads, we have indeed 'stuffed it up'. So much so that in the majority of cases, the conventional agriculture farmyard storehouse (and, most regrettably, that of many organic and even some biodynamic farms) contains a 'weapon of mass destruction' which makes the nuclear bomb, anthrax, bubonic plague and their biological/chemical companions pale into insignificance. A weapon which comes in a common or garden UV protected white polyethylene bag. A weapon which, during the last hundred years and in particular the last forty, has almost wholly destroyed the natural abilities of soils to grow nutritious crops. Globally. 'The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.' (Franklin D. Roosevelt) You may not believe that I cringe when I read of people advocating the use of chemical fertilisers in the face of overwhelming evidence of their destructive qualities. Identities whose reputations are such that less knowledgeable people follow blindly in their footsteps. Well, I do cringe - and so should you. For those who do not, or who believe otherwise, I suggest you read 'Silent Spring' by Rachel Carson and 'The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight' (Thom Hartmann), just two books of a growing number castigating the actions of so-called 'developed' nations and elements of the human race. With cause. I contend there is no justification for any use of chemical fertilisers, for the subjugation of 'Quality' to 'Quantity', for the abandonment or rejection of holisticism in farming. Treat the soil, as the living organism that it is, with care and compassion, maintain its chemical, mineral and organic balance naturally, and it will see you right. In ANY circumstances. roger %% Today, do not worry, do not anger Honour your parents, teachers and elders Earn your living honestly Be thankful to all life %% Roger Pye Reiki Earth Healing, Energy Water Dowsing PO Box 2057 Queanbeyan NSW 2620 Australia Ph: +61 2 6255 3824 Fax: +61 2 6255 1028 Mob: +61 410 469 541 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
- Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium Allan Balliett wrote: . . . . Pfeiffer, in practice, however, was open to the use of chemical fertilizers to get the soil productive enough to produce cover crops that could have benefit if once turned into the soil. (A person starting a bd project on an abused piece of ground - - as almost every square foot of american ground is EVEN much of what is covered by forest today - - may need to go to extremes to create those first few crops that the well established german farmers steiner was speaking to during the lectures did not have to) You may not believe that I cringe when I read of people advocating the use of chemical fertilisers in the face of overwhelming evidence of their destructive qualities. Identities whose reputations are such that less knowledgeable people follow blindly in their footsteps. Well, I do cringe - and so should you. I contend there is no justification for any use of chemical fertilisers, for the subjugation of 'Quality' to 'Quantity', for the abandonment or rejection of holisticism in farming. Roger dont you think you have got a bit carried away with this? After all we were talking about minute amounts of calcium nitrate used not as fertiliser but as a material to activate and catalyse soil calcium and to deter weed growth on farmland in conversion. 2 pounds per acre in an application!! Just for the record there is still a goodly amount of mineral deficient, low brix organic produce (and probably some BD stuff too) around that is probably way worse for your health than what the eco farmers are producing using the sort of program that I've talked about in this thread. You know the destructive qualities of the salt fertiliser materials have much more to do with the quantities used and the manner in which they are used than the actual makeup of the fertilisers in many cases. Too much of anything is bad for soil health (rain water included), but most fertilisers can be beneficial in some circumstances IF they are used correctly. That is for the benefit of the soil not the benefit of the fertiliser salesman! Cheers Lloyd Charles I am not trying to argue that conventional fertiliser use is good for soils!
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Lloyd said: Roger, dont you think you have got a bit carried away with this? Lloyd , I assume that Roger was responding to my more generalized statement about the use of artificial fertilizers to jump start a depleted piece of ground. Roger, I appreciate that you spoke up for the finer sensibilities. I ask that you understand that Pfeiffer was advocating the use of commercial fertilizer as a TOOL in a biodynamic farming practice and not as an end in and of itself. Quantities of synthetics used would be small, and, as I understand it, applied one season,only. The suggetion, of course, is for situations of extreme depletion, just to get green covers growing that inturn would perk up the biology. All this is assuming that the grower couldn't access tons of high quality compost for this start-up season. Hear! Hear! for remembering the higher principles!
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Hi! Roger, Great post, as all ways, Have a good one! Gil Roger Pye wrote: Allan Balliett wrote:
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Allan Balliett wrote: Lloyd said: Roger, dont you think you have got a bit carried away with this? Lloyd , I assume that Roger was responding to my more generalized statement about the use of artificial fertilizers to jump start a depleted piece of ground. Roger, I appreciate that you spoke up for the finer sensibilities. I ask that you understand that Pfeiffer was advocating the use of commercial fertilizer as a TOOL in a biodynamic farming practice and not as an end in and of itself. Quantities of synthetics used would be small, and, as I understand it, applied one season,only. The suggetion, of course, is for situations of extreme depletion, just to get green covers growing that inturn would perk up the biology. All this is assuming that the grower couldn't access tons of high quality compost for this start-up season. Hear! Hear! for remembering the higher principles! I am not arguing on the basis of remembering higher principles but on encouraging their use. A simple fact about 'good' water quality and availability in Oz (leaving aside water's gross mismanagement by whole generations of populations, rural and urban alike) is that for every kilo of chemical fertiliser used in the 'growth' cycle, a minimum of 300 grams is not used by plants at all. Some of this leaches out into waterways, dams and ponds where it generates algae and poisonous blooms, the remainder stays in the soil adversely affecting microbial and bacterial life and the long term ability of the soil to support growth cycles. Think now about the other 700 grams per kilo which are used in some way by plants. These are mineral salts, remember. Every gram is capable of attracting up to 70 grams of moisture which has to go somewhere - is it any wonder that green crops are outwardly so boisterous and exuberant? Unfortunately it is just a facade, a brave show to divert attention from the lack of true nutrition internally. Plough or turn these crops into the soil and one perpetuates the damage caused by the initial spread. Why? Because all attracted moisture will itself have become salty. Given a choice between drinking sweetness, neutrality or saltiness, what would you choose? Neither soils nor plants have that choice when chemical fertilisers are in use, yet their natural chemical, mineral and energy composition is the same as yours. I don't hold with everything that Rachel Carson or Tom Hartmann wrote, or for that matter Rudolph Steiner. But I do know that 3.8 grams of BD501 mixed with 34 litres of fresh water and potentised, and sprayed on one hectare of degraded farmland in the evening when the land is drawing its nutrients and energies back into itself, will unlock and catalyse natural minerals and vitamins. (For the record, in my opinion 3.8 grams IS a minute quantity.) The same mixture, sprayed on african lovegrass in the heat of the day, renders the seed unviable. Instantly. 500, 501 and the other preparations are miracles-in-being whose greatness, despite the passage of time, has in no way been fully realised. Similarly we have hardly explored the energies available to us naturally (and I don't mean fossil fuels). The opportunity to do so - indeed, I feel I should say 'necessity' - is upon us. From now until the bombs start falling, and never mind that the time of year or month is 'incorrect', make preparations for the future. After the last desperate empirical doomed-to-failure grasp of the 'western' nations at world supremacy is over, we will all be too busy chopping wood and carrying water! roger --
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
- Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium Think now about the other 700 grams per kilo which are used in some way by plants. These are mineral salts, remember. Every gram is capable of attracting up to 70 grams of moisture which has to go somewhere - is it any wonder that green crops are outwardly so boisterous and exuberant? Unfortunately it is just a facade, a brave show to divert attention from the lack of true nutrition internally. Roger I think you've missed the point of what I have been writing. You are talking about fertiliser usage of these materials (in bags to the acre). I'm not and never was! one ... I wrote about this as a mechanism to catalyse locked up soil minerals and so deter weeds from germinating and to kick start the system nutritionally. Alex Podolinsky and PA Yeomans both made reference to this tactic with superphosphate in startup situations - two of the most astute and dedicated soil men that ever left a bootprint. What you write about quantity use of salt fertilisers is right and I have not disagreed with that. two .. I have been very careful, anytime I have written about this, to recommend that organic growers look at OTHER liquid calcium sources such as calcium lignosulfonate or some of the liquid limes and see if they can get beneficial results similar to what I can get with the calcium nitrate. T three ... its what is going on in the soil system thats important here NOT the material used or the quantity of it. four .. what you do, what I do, Allan, Hugh Lovel, whoever, these are all tools for us to use and we fixate on one of em at our peril - particularly in the early stages - its expecting too much of biodynamics to think we can bring highly degraded soils back to full production in the short time necessary economically, without doing something else to help as well. But I do know that 3.8 grams of BD501 mixed with 34 litres of fresh water and potentised, and sprayed on one hectare of degraded farmland in the evening when the land is drawing its nutrients and energies back into itself, will unlock and catalyse natural minerals and vitamins. The same mixture, sprayed on african lovegrass in the heat of the day, renders the seed unviable. Instantly. This is unconventional usage of 501 - can you just answer yes or no if what you've written is what you did please. Also what was the effect on other plants in the pasture? 500, 501 and the other preparations are miracles-in-being whose greatness, despite the passage of time, has in no way been fully realised. Similarly we have hardly explored the energies available to us naturally. Could'nt agree more. Cheers again Lloyd Charles
Radionics. Was Re; Perfect Orchard
Deart Per, When you ask will Radionics help the perfect orchard, the answer is no! If you already have a perfect orchard you wont need radionics. To try to obtain a perfect something is an exercise in futility. As to your point will it help the soil, or the general well feeling or .Yes it will do all of these in the hands of a competent practitioner, but don't expect it to do miracles overnight. The better the physical and biological structure of your soil, the better results that radionics will give. As far as being able to give a broad explanation of Radionics I think it would depend on which school of thought you follow. Ruth Drown , one of the early pioneers of Radionics tried to write a brief overview of the subject and wound up at about 400 pages. I suggest that you search on Google or some other search engine for the key words Radionic Instruments 176,000 references. The Russian Academy of Sciences, somewhere about the same. Radionic Rates on any of the search engines will give several thousand references. Even a search through the archives of BDnow will give you a lot of information that does not need to be repeated. By the time that you study some of these web pages you will have an idea of how you might use radionics on your farm, or in treatment of your family. The soil that you describe will break your heart and your bank, but good luck for trying. Couldn't you find a better drained area on your farm. However if you are going to persevere with this project I would suggest that you use something like a D7 Caterpillar Bulldozer and rip the whole patch down the direction of the rows, to a depth of about 8 ft and have high calcium lime dropped down into the rip furrow. This method is common on many of the local vineyards in areas that have a hard pan subsoil. From there implementation of good organic farming practices, will get you away to a good start.The point to remember is to always work to enhance the life forces in the soil and atmosphere. James Hedley
Re: Perfect Orchard - gelignite?
Yes, gelignite is an explosive that is a relative slow burner as explosives go, certainly much slower than T.N.T. tri nitro toluene. I'm not sure where you would get it in the U.S. Anyway it would be good to get a qualified practitioner to do the job. If you ar e using it and wipe a contaminate hand across your brow you get a headache like you wont forget in a long time. To use it for the purpose of loosening soil or blowing ditches out one bores holes with an auger just a little bigger than the plug. Usually for loosening soil hlf a plug is put in each hole with a detinator and a length of rapid burning fuse. Connect as many fast fuses together as is possible as the effect is cumulative. To all the fast fuse joined to gether attach one slow fuse or use a detinator like that used in a quarry. It is important to asses the depth of each charge and the distance between them to just achieve the optimum fracturing of the pan. There should be no soil or stones flying around. The soil should lift between one to two inches then settle back. All the holes need to be well packed. Once more I suggest this is a job for an expert, and only to be used when more gentle methods are inadiquate. It is not part of the biodynamic method! It can be extremely effective when expertly executed. I have farmed land that has had a pan formed by a high water table. This is one of the reasons for adequate drainage. The objective of all this is to get an active soil life that will keep the soil free enough to allow good root penetration. A couple of auger holes under each plant filled with compost or a mix of soil and compost may be all it takes to achieve your objective while the biodynamic method gets on with dissolving the pan over time. Best wishes, Peter. - Original Message - From: Doug Jay Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:43 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard - gelignite? What is gelignite? How is it used? Where is it obtained?
Re: Perfect Orchard - gelignite?
HI ALL gelignite n?, for the explosive farm, fun apart what do you do whit it. And more problem is the terrorist issue, If one is planing to have this on the field I suggested to have Federal permit. Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Aurora Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 02:47 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard - gelignite? Sometimes the dictionary is just what we need: Gelignite n. An explosive mixture, comprised of nitroglycerine, guncotton, wood pulp, and potassium nitrate. [GEL(atin) + Lat. ignis, fire + ITE.] Would probably work nicely to loosen soil, eh? Woody at Aurora Farm. the only unsubsidized, family-run seed farm in North America offering garden seeds grown using Rudolf Steiner's methods of spiritual agriculture. http://www.kootenay.com/~aurora -Original Message- From: Doug Jay Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:44 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard - gelignite? What is gelignite? How is it used? Where is it obtained? DS From: Peter Michael Bacchus [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:49:03 +1300 If you really do need to loosen the subsoil mechanically I suggest that you look at gelignite, I have seen it used to good effect under trees that were stunted by hard pan. In this way the topsoil would remain on top. _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Perfect Orchard
Hi Merla Confusing stuff, can any one explain the difference in the calcium products : Lime, Calcium Prilled calcium Gypsum, I'm sure there is many more that I don't understand it's function , and when are this Organic and accepted for DB farming ?? Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Merla Barberie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 03:34 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Lloyd Charles wrote: . . . If you have low calcium soil, Lime is needed to restore the CEC balance and you will need a carbon source to hold and activate it. and later he wrote to Gil who had said, Calcium will come from the application of gypsum.: And leave almost as quick as it came! LIME is the way to get good calcium levels, When I was working with Hugh Courtney on test plots for the right-of-way, one of his suggestions was to add high calcium lime. I called around to all the the feed stores that sell lime and asked for a high calcium lime. None of the salesmen knew what I was talking about. They always sold dolomite and they really didn't understand anything about lime so they left it to me to choose. I chose hydrated lime, and they sold it to me. The blind leading the blind. Luckily, I only used it on two plots. Then when I got connected to someone who sold soil amendments for Bruce Tainio, Tainio Technology and Technique, a soil scientist recommended by Elaine, she gave me Calpril which is a prilled calcium carbonate 91`% and 1% magnesium, whatever prilled means from a company in Tonasket, WA. There's a series of mesh sizes on the bag. This one is probably overkill, but I was glad to get something that was the right thing... When you suggest lime to someone, you need to be more specific about what you mean. Can you do a rundown of limes that are available and what they are used for just to clarify what you mean when you say add lime? Best, Merla
Re: Perfect Orchard
HI all , This is my 3rd year going in to the 4, (Planing and implementing my Orchard and refurbishing our Barn) but perhaps my fingers will not work that long. And they are hurting today as I got hit by a popping wood piece of ash as we where splitting the wood for the winters heating. I understand that I need to be an open minded person that's why I like wine. I do still not comprehend what do this setup do, field broadcaster is not Radionics. What is the function ?? Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 05:48 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard - Original Message - From: James Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:36 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Dear Hugh, Lloyd, Gil, Per Garp and others, Just to start the discussion rolling I agree that a field broadcaster is not Radionics. It is just one of the many tools available to try to influence subtle energy or force fields. OK guys - if its not radionics, what is it? We use radionically prepared homeopathic reagents in it, we can use it to do many of the same things that are done with a proper radionic instrument (broadcasting crows out of a paddock for example). I believe that the top well of a pipe could function as a radionic instrument does ie across time, space, unlimited distance. Do we need to agree on tight definitions here? Radionics to me is scanning analysis and treatment using variable rate instruments such as the Mattioda/ Rogers. There is much more of radiesthesia involved in the English system, but there is a huge area of overlap in all subtle energies from the ormus minerals through instruments of various types to classical biodynamic agriculture, all of these are treading the same patch of ground. Subtle energy is a step by step process for the newcomer. example- Its relatively easy to get across to an open minded person that we can take a polaroid photo of a field , animal, or whatever and capture the energy pattern on the metallic negative, then put that in the well of a radionic instrument and treat - the box has knobs and dials on , its ok for many people to go that far. Now tell that same person that we can use an old photo to treat a new problem and the eyes glaze a bit - we are into science fiction - time travel here to the newcomer. Another problem we have is where does our reality end (results) and our imagination start (what was going to happen anyway) I look forward to an interesting christmas break - this discussion could last into january easy Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard
Per - Visit Hugh Lovel's website: www.unionag.org for a good, thorough explanation and diagram of the construction of a field broadcaster. If you want to come over and see my broadcaster, I'll be home more than I ordinarily am over the holidays and we could set something up after Christmas. Essie At 09:07 PM 12/16/02 -0500, you wrote: HI all , This is my 3rd year going in to the 4, (Planing and implementing my Orchard and refurbishing our Barn) but perhaps my fingers will not work that long. And they are hurting today as I got hit by a popping wood piece of ash as we where splitting the wood for the winters heating. I understand that I need to be an open minded person that's why I like wine. I do still not comprehend what do this setup do, field broadcaster is not Radionics. What is the function ?? Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 05:48 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard - Original Message - From: James Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:36 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Dear Hugh, Lloyd, Gil, Per Garp and others, Just to start the discussion rolling I agree that a field broadcaster is not Radionics. It is just one of the many tools available to try to influence subtle energy or force fields. OK guys - if its not radionics, what is it? We use radionically prepared homeopathic reagents in it, we can use it to do many of the same things that are done with a proper radionic instrument (broadcasting crows out of a paddock for example). I believe that the top well of a pipe could function as a radionic instrument does ie across time, space, unlimited distance. Do we need to agree on tight definitions here? Radionics to me is scanning analysis and treatment using variable rate instruments such as the Mattioda/ Rogers. There is much more of radiesthesia involved in the English system, but there is a huge area of overlap in all subtle energies from the ormus minerals through instruments of various types to classical biodynamic agriculture, all of these are treading the same patch of ground. Subtle energy is a step by step process for the newcomer. example- Its relatively easy to get across to an open minded person that we can take a polaroid photo of a field , animal, or whatever and capture the energy pattern on the metallic negative, then put that in the well of a radionic instrument and treat - the box has knobs and dials on , its ok for many people to go that far. Now tell that same person that we can use an old photo to treat a new problem and the eyes glaze a bit - we are into science fiction - time travel here to the newcomer. Another problem we have is where does our reality end (results) and our imagination start (what was going to happen anyway) I look forward to an interesting christmas break - this discussion could last into january easy Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard
- Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Hi Merla Confusing stuff, can any one explain the difference in the calcium products : Lime, In America this seems to be a generic term with variable meaning so lets divide it up into :: High calcium lime which is Calcium Carbonate - this is mined and crushed from the type of rock where you find underground Limestone caves :: Dolomitic Lime (or dolomite) which is a mixture of Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate Calcium Refers to the metallic or elemental form - look in a dictionary or scientific text Prilled calcium Used to describe a re granulated form of high calcium lime - its treated this way to make it easier to spread . Gypsum, Calcium Sulfate - often refered to as 'clay breaker' in the store or garden shop - mined from soft underground deposits in dry inland areas where old lakebeds were - or obtained as a by product of concentrated phosphate fertiliser manufacture - this form will likely have some heavy metal contamination concentrated from the original source material (cadmium, lead,) . Gypsum is the white stuff they make wallboard for your house. When we use high rates of gypsum we are supplying a massive overdose of sulfate sulfur . I'm sure there is many more that I don't understand it's function , and when are this Organic and accepted for DB farming ?? Your organic certifier will have a list of accepted input materials L Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Dear friends - Does anyone know of anyone who has 'applied lime' using the Kolisko approach? If so, can you comment on the effect(s)? Thanks _Allan
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
- Original Message - From: Chris Shade [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 4:34 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium Chris Allan et al., . With cal nitrate , Ca(NO3)2, you are applying two nitrates for every calcium, so if you used alot, you would soon be a chemical fertilizer. Exactly correct! Dont want you all to get the idea that I am pushing for Calcium Nitrate to be on the organic input list - we use it - non certified - get great results - BUT I expect that our soils will progress to the stage that it becomes unneccessary - there are probably other ways of doing the same thing organically - but when I go visit organic grain farms I often see a whole bunch of the same weeds, strangling the crop and ruining the yield, that I can easily get rid of using this material. And again I dont use much - 2 pounds to the acre in an application - I'm sure there would be organically acceptable alternatives that dont have the disadvantage? of nitrate attached. What is happening in the soil system is far more important here than the actual material used to make it happen! Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Lloyd - Remind me: how do you get the calcium nitrate down? What are your rates? How would you modify this if you were working in a garden? Thanks -Allan
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
- Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium Lloyd - Remind me: how do you get the calcium nitrate down? What are your rates? How would you modify this if you were working in a garden? Thanks -Allan Phil Wheelers book recommends 2pounds cal nitrate and 2 gal molasses per acre to deter weeds - application as a surface spray within 24 hours of seeding - soil disturbance - I use much less molasses, as I am only using 50lt per hectare total volume. Later as a foliar spray its a pure growth energy and I use the refractometer to check for beneficial results (or not) . Calcium nitrate is difficult to mix with many of the normal organic materials (kelp etc) so you need to do bottle tests for compatability.
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
12/18/2002 10:21:55 AM, Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you have contact info on this Phil Wheeler? Dr. Phil Wheeler can be contacted at Crop Services International Inc., 1718 Madison S.E., Grand Rapids, Michigan 49507-2518, phone (616) 246-7933, fax (616) 246-6039, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], website www.cropservicesintl.com. As far as calcium goes, I want to add that Dr. Arden Andersen preaches mightily that it should be added in fertilizer quantities. If you'll check 5 Acres Independence, you'll find a chart that shows that even in well-kept land a year's worth of rainfall will leach away about 500 pounds of your finest lime. Althought this becomes much less true as you move the organic matter content up to 5%, Andersen still teaches that you should spread a little each year to grow the finest crops. I think all the brix hierarchy teaches that calcium should always be encouraged even as potassium is discouraged. This seems, at least to me, to tie in 100% with Albrecht's teachings that the soils of the humid east produce woody carbohydrates whereas those of the arid west produce high quality proteins. The little professor knew that we in the east need some hi-cal added until we get that good balance that occurred naturally in the corn belt. I interpret this (optomistically) to mean that once you get your soil in good Albrecht balance (i.e., 70% calcium), you should be able to keep it there with just a little hi-cal lime each year---probably best mixed in with your compost. On the other hand, there are those who insist that as you get the microbes working better in any given soil, they will start chewing on those bigger chunks of lime and break down what is needed to replenish what is leached away. I guess there are many answers. Liquid Cal can often be just the ticket, at least temporarily, when you're working a dead piece of ground. A problem, of course, is what Lloyd Charles warned about: somebody, somewhere, will use 10---or a 100---times more than is needed and create a whole new cycle of soil plant indigestion. I was so pleased a month or so ago when he went through the process of explaining how to use a refractometer to let the plants talk to their farmer. That is the true test of how much is enough. What we calculate as a needed addition means dip-squat when the brix stays the same or, ugh, drops. PS Let me know if you want to borrow any tapes from ACRES this year Sounds like a treat to me. Thanks... Regards, Rex Harrill
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Dorothy, et al - If you get a good soil test, like one from Jerry Brunetti http://www.agri-dynamics.com or Joel at Logan Labs, the recommendations for lime will be layed right for you: you'll know if you need dolomite or if you need high-calcium lime. A good soil test interpreter will also look at your overall test and decide if you can get jumpstarted by using some (or a lot of!) gypsum. The issue for me is being able to trust the source of my lime. Southern States here in the South East US just doesn't think tere is any reason that I need to know that the lime is anything but lime. We bought our high calcium lime in 50 lb bags from Doug Brit of Ag-Life. It's expensive that way, but at least we knew what we were getting. I've also been advised to ask anyone selling lime where their quarry is and could I get a state analysis of their lime. Apparently, a lot of lime is contaminated by heavy metals and that will show up in one of these reports. As everyone knows, I worked in a hellish situation last summer. (I growing food for 160 families on soil that had been supporting no-till conventional ag for the previous 30 years) We needed a lot of lime to reach our Albrecht goals. I bought the finest talc-like lime I could buy. I still had lots of weird plant problems and never ever felt that foliars for CT applications were effective. Graham of Nutri-Tech at ACRES pointed out that I couldn't possibly have adequate accessible lime in one season and that I should have moved to liquid calcium in my situation. I realize that this is not a certificable organic substance, but I also understand that it is considered to be a safe amendment by many responsible sustainable growers, particularly those who push for hi-BRIX plant quality. I'd like to experiment with liquid Calcium in my 2003 gardens. Does anyone know where or how to buy it in the US? I'm looking for more advice on buying field lime, also. -Allan
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
. Graham of Nutri-Tech at ACRES pointed out that I couldn't possibly have adequate accessible lime in one season and that I should have moved to liquid calcium in my situation. I realize that this is not a certificable organic substance, but I also understand that it is considered to be a safe amendment by many responsible sustainable growers, particularly those who push for hi-BRIX plant quality. I'd like to experiment with liquid Calcium in my 2003 gardens. Does anyone know where or how to buy it in the US? I'm looking for more advice on buying field lime, also. -Allan Allan If you just want to grow good food and dont HAVE to be certified to sell, then you can buy greenhouse grade calcium nitrate fertiliser - you can take this dry granulated fertiliser and mix in water - hey presto! - liquid calcium - the stuff made in norway is the best you can get - comes in a 25kg white and orange bag - and should cost around $12 to $15 per bag - there are a couple of other European sources that are good - I dont like the Asian stuff and would not use it - we have already had one instance in OZ of serious heavy metal contamination in fertiliser from china. If you can't find calcium nitrate locally - go look where they grow grapes or citrus - our guys run this material in the dripper lines so I have ready access to it - it is a very valuable input for our crops, we dont use much, probably only 6 to 8 kg per hectare per season, in three or four separate treatments. . If you need certification have a look at calcium lignosulfonate - this is certifiable organic in our country.
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Pardon my ignorance, Lloyd: do you have any idea of why calcium nitrate is not acceptable for organically certified crops? Graham is very health conscious and he was very accepting of calcium nitrate as a first season or emergency input. How do you feel about it? (And, why?) Thanks! -Allan
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
Allan Balliett wrote: As everyone knows, I worked in a hellish situation last summer. (I growing food for 160 families on soil that had been supporting no-till conventional ag for the previous 30 years) We needed a lot of lime to reach our Albrecht goals. I bought the finest talc-like lime I could buy. I still had lots of weird plant problems and never ever felt that foliars for CT applications were effective. Graham of Nutri-Tech at ACRES pointed out that I couldn't possibly have adequate accessible lime in one season and that I should have moved to liquid calcium in my situation. I realize that this is not a certificable organic substance, but I also understand that it is considered to be a safe amendment by many responsible sustainable growers, particularly those who push for hi-BRIX plant quality. I'd like to experiment with liquid Calcium in my 2003 gardens. Does anyone know where or how to buy it in the US? I'm looking for more advice on buying field lime, also. Soya beans, dandelion, horsetail (equisetum arvense), horseradish, kelp, valerian root are all high in calcium and other growth essentials. A suggestion is that you make up a BD compost incorporating two or more of these plants, take it right through the worm stage, separate the worms out leaving the castings in, liquefy the compost with fresh water (rainwater or water which has been exposed to the elements is preferable but not mandatory) so there are no large solid particles, dilute by 50 to 1 and spray a test area at a rate of 103 litres per hectare in early spring or after frosts have well and truly gone off. Repeat spray halfway through the growth stage and after harvest. roger -- %% Show gratitude to all living things %% Roger Pye Reiki Earth Healing Energy Water Dowsing PO Box 2057 Queanbeyan NSW 2620 Ph: 02 6255 3824 Fax: 02 6255 1028 Mob: 0410 469 541 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
12/17/2002 9:26:22 AM, Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to experiment with liquid Calcium in my 2003 gardens. Does anyone know where or how to buy it in the US? Phil Wheeler in Michigan sells it. He's a brixer. I'm looking for more advice on buying field lime, also. Try Willie Hilliard, (304) 876-6114, Shenandoah Jct, Shepherdstown, WV 25443. It's been a few years, but he came over and spread a truckload of hi-calcium lime over my acres. He gets it down at the hydrated lime place in Stephens City and he provides a test result that indicates rather low mag. Regards, Rex Harrill http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/lime/390201.pdf
Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium
- Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard-Calcium Pardon my ignorance, Lloyd: do you have any idea of why calcium nitrate is not acceptable for organically certified crops? When people draw a line they tend to draw it in the easiest place not always where it should be drawn. I believe organic certification allows any naturally occurring material ? So if you can dig it out of a hole in the ground you're allowed to spread it on your farm - broadly speaking - so trace elements are allowed in the sulfate form - because thats how they occur in nature. Calcium nitrate in the form we use is a manufactured salt fertiliser - so I guess its taboo on those grounds regardless of whether or not its a beneficial material - I guess the certifiers figure that using a little bit is like being half pregnant. Graham is very health conscious and he was very accepting of calcium nitrate as a first season or emergency input. How do you feel about it? (And, why?) Calcium nitrate lets us catalyse and activate our soil calcium - which in turn lets us get good results with affordable rates of high calcium lime. Calcium nitrate has allowed us (in early conversion to regenerative farming) to eliminate early broadleaf weed spraying, without suffering a yield penalty, on high potassium soils where these weeds are a huge problem. We use small amounts of it in growth energy foliar sprays and it helps to further depress weed growth I make a special mix with cal nitrate and some other goodies that has given real nice energetic readings when tested radionically. As I said earlier we dont use much of this - 6 to 8 pounds per acre per year is all - but its a very beneficial input to our system . I guess if it was allowed in organics next thing you would have guys using 500 pound to the acre on vegetable crops and getting back on the same ole treadmill they thought they just got off!! Cheers Lloyd Charles
Radionics and Field Broadcasting was Re: Perfect Orchard
Hugh - Let's do it! -Allan Dear Per, We need a discussion on this. Radionics, is not exactly the same as field broadcasting. But they are related. I'll have to get back to this. In the meanwhile, any others like to have a go at this? Hugh Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: Radionics and Field Broadcasting was Re: Perfect Orchard
Now, I'm not going to even begin to try to explain field broadcasting, but (after it's explained), Per can come over to my place to see my broadcaster, if he wishes. He, by my reckoning, lives about 20 minutes from me. Essie At 06:40 AM 12/16/02 -0500, you wrote: Hugh - Let's do it! -Allan Dear Per, We need a discussion on this. Radionics, is not exactly the same as field broadcasting. But they are related. I'll have to get back to this. In the meanwhile, any others like to have a go at this? Hugh Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Perfect Orchard
We have the same stoney hardpan here in Hollis NH. A 2-foot deep chisel plow will get rid of it and leave all the topsoil in place. No need to resort to explosives (gelignite). - Original Message - From: Peter Michael Bacchus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 4:49 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? Dear Per Now that you have given your location and soil description it is easier to make a suggestion. Have your soil chemistry analyzed by Brookside Lab. or similar then work on balancing your cation exchange to suit grape vines. Drain as mentioned and form up windrows to plant on. grape roots like to be warm. I would be a bit cautious about sheep and goat manure as they tend to make the ground harder, or at least that is my experience. Horse manure has the most soil loosening effect, followed by cow. This is of course to be composted and prepped. Then be generous with the Horn manure and barrel compost. You need to get the soil life going which means you may need to drain to avoid waterlogging at any time. If you really do need to loosen the subsoil mechanically I suggest that you look at gelignite, I have seen it used to good effect under trees that were stunted by hard pan. In this way the topsoil would remain on top. Go and have a look at what Steven Storch is doing and perhaps get some advice from him. Best of luck, Peter. - Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? I appreciate this comments, We are here permanently, Hardpan is very common in the Eastern US, in NH winery's are Uncommon. Gypsum has been suggested in the past but only a hand full of it in for each grape planting. Hardpan in the NH is a sand like product with a bunch of stones large to small, it act much like quicksand when water soaked, water have a hard time penetrate it and that's way I need to drain my fields as grapes do not like wet feet's. We do not have any clay, as far as what I have seen. On top of the Hard pan we have 1 to 2 feet's of good top soil Some time more some time less pending on location and past cow manure deposit. We have consider ripping the hardpan whit a 2-3 foot Hardpan buster type of equipment but have fund that it is harder to do a good job of that type of equipment, a 3x3 dug ditch seems more functional. ( But more costly) and then the gypsum can do it's job !? I plan to cover the rows with wood chips, (and add goat and sheep manure)as a soil help and to prevent grass and competition. (I like to see chickens and Guinea fouls in the fields) Please describe the full BD cycle. Thanks Per Garp/NH
Re: Perfect Orchard - gelignite?
What is gelignite? How is it used? Where is it obtained? DS From: Peter Michael Bacchus [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:49:03 +1300 If you really do need to loosen the subsoil mechanically I suggest that you look at gelignite, I have seen it used to good effect under trees that were stunted by hard pan. In this way the topsoil would remain on top. _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Perfect Orchard - gelignite?
Sometimes the dictionary is just what we need: Gelignite n. An explosive mixture, comprised of nitroglycerine, guncotton, wood pulp, and potassium nitrate. [GEL(atin) + Lat. ignis, fire + ITE.] Would probably work nicely to loosen soil, eh? Woody at Aurora Farm. the only unsubsidized, family-run seed farm in North America offering garden seeds grown using Rudolf Steiner's methods of spiritual agriculture. http://www.kootenay.com/~aurora -Original Message- From: Doug Jay Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:44 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard - gelignite? What is gelignite? How is it used? Where is it obtained? DS From: Peter Michael Bacchus [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:49:03 +1300 If you really do need to loosen the subsoil mechanically I suggest that you look at gelignite, I have seen it used to good effect under trees that were stunted by hard pan. In this way the topsoil would remain on top. _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Perfect Orchard
Lloyd Charles wrote: . . . If you have low calcium soil, Lime is needed to restore the CEC balance and you will need a carbon source to hold and activate it. and later he wrote to Gil who had said, Calcium will come from the application of gypsum.: And leave almost as quick as it came! LIME is the way to get good calcium levels, When I was working with Hugh Courtney on test plots for the right-of-way, one of his suggestions was to add high calcium lime. I called around to all the the feed stores that sell lime and asked for a high calcium lime. None of the salesmen knew what I was talking about. They always sold dolomite and they really didn't understand anything about lime so they left it to me to choose. I chose hydrated lime, and they sold it to me. The blind leading the blind. Luckily, I only used it on two plots. Then when I got connected to someone who sold soil amendments for Bruce Tainio, Tainio Technology and Technique, a soil scientist recommended by Elaine, she gave me Calpril which is a prilled calcium carbonate 91`% and 1% magnesium, whatever prilled means from a company in Tonasket, WA. There's a series of mesh sizes on the bag. This one is probably overkill, but I was glad to get something that was the right thing... When you suggest lime to someone, you need to be more specific about what you mean. Can you do a rundown of limes that are available and what they are used for just to clarify what you mean when you say add lime? Best, Merla
Re: Perfect Orchard
. - Original Message - From: Merla Barberie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard When you suggest lime to someone, you need to be more specific about what you mean. Can you do a rundown of limes that are available and what they are used for just to clarify what you mean when you say add lime? Best, Merla Good point Merla Aussies are renowned for being casual in their use of language, and I have to admit to being worse than most! On top of that we often use it differently than you do, so here's my lime story. # Agricultural LIME (your high calcium lime) is finely ground limestone rock - calcium carbonate - CaCo3 - the finer the grind the better - we look for 90% finer than 300micron, this gives a high neutralising value for acid soils and, we need to use less. This material is also called High Calcium Lime and has only a low amount, or nil, of magnesium. Its usually white to greyish off white but can have a pink or brownish tinge depending on the amount and type of soil or other rock contamination - use Ag LIME on loam and heavier soils,where on the CEC soil test calcium is low and magnesium is adequate (above 12% of total CEC) # Dolomite (often called LIME in your country) is a combination of magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate - again a finely ground rock - only use this where there is a tested need for magnesium in the soil CEC. Thats only likely to be sandy and sandy loam soils. Excess dolomite will tighten up soils and burn out nitrogen so the fertiliser men love to see farmers using dolomite to neutralise acid soils, cause they will soon be back in the store to order heaps of bagged nitrogen. A lot of people use dolomite to good effect in homemade animal licks so yes its easy to find in the feed stores. # calcium oxide - is burnt limestone rock - hot stuff this - very active - it will burn you and your soil critters. #calcium hydroxide - burnt limestone hydrated (it takes in some water) this is your ordinary builders lime - can get this in any hardware store - its used for making mortar for bricks - not the effect we want in soil. It can be used ok in some circumstances in small quantities # There are a whole raft of commercial liquid calcium liquid lime products around. To me the common theme seems to be they are way expensive - and have a heavy advertising budget attached - calcium is a cheap base material to buy - calcium nitrate is not expensive (50 cents US per kg or litre) but put it in a plastic drum with fancy label and a little colouring agent and the price goes up by a factor of about five. The liquid limes - again in a fancy container with some of what looks like paint thinner /oil added to suspend it, it makes a real high price for what probably started out as a piece of rock. I am not arguing about the effect of these products on soils or growing crops, I just dont like them because of the massive markup. # Your prilled material sounds like it is fine ground, high calcium lime that has been reformed into granules to make spreading easier. Is this OK Merla - come back if you think it needs more Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard
Lloyd - I take it that this is the 'dolomite' that Pat Colbey recommends as a free choice mineral supplement for livestock. Everyone - Is LIME what we would ask for to get 'dolomitic lime'? Is this something that one can buy with confidence at the coop or is it best purchased from an organic amendment salesman? Thanks -Allan # Dolomite (often called LIME in your country) is a combination of magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate - again a finely ground rock - only use this where there is a tested need for magnesium in the soil CEC. Thats only likely to be sandy and sandy loam soils. Excess dolomite will tighten up soils and burn out nitrogen so the fertiliser men love to see farmers using dolomite to neutralise acid soils, cause they will soon be back in the store to order heaps of bagged nitrogen.
Re: Perfect Orchard
- Original Message - From: James Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:36 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Dear Hugh, Lloyd, Gil, Per Garp and others, Just to start the discussion rolling I agree that a field broadcaster is not Radionics. It is just one of the many tools available to try to influence subtle energy or force fields. OK guys - if its not radionics, what is it? We use radionically prepared homeopathic reagents in it, we can use it to do many of the same things that are done with a proper radionic instrument (broadcasting crows out of a paddock for example). I believe that the top well of a pipe could function as a radionic instrument does ie across time, space, unlimited distance. Do we need to agree on tight definitions here? Radionics to me is scanning analysis and treatment using variable rate instruments such as the Mattioda/ Rogers. There is much more of radiesthesia involved in the English system, but there is a huge area of overlap in all subtle energies from the ormus minerals through instruments of various types to classical biodynamic agriculture, all of these are treading the same patch of ground. Subtle energy is a step by step process for the newcomer. example- Its relatively easy to get across to an open minded person that we can take a polaroid photo of a field , animal, or whatever and capture the energy pattern on the metallic negative, then put that in the well of a radionic instrument and treat - the box has knobs and dials on , its ok for many people to go that far. Now tell that same person that we can use an old photo to treat a new problem and the eyes glaze a bit - we are into science fiction - time travel here to the newcomer. Another problem we have is where does our reality end (results) and our imagination start (what was going to happen anyway) I look forward to an interesting christmas break - this discussion could last into january easy Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Radionics and Field Broadcasting was Re: Perfect Orchard
Essie, I told you that you would have information that are very interesting ! Please I would like to and I will bring some wine to. Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Essie Hull [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 08:51 AM Subject: Re: Radionics and Field Broadcasting was Re: Perfect Orchard Now, I'm not going to even begin to try to explain field broadcasting, but (after it's explained), Per can come over to my place to see my broadcaster, if he wishes. He, by my reckoning, lives about 20 minutes from me. Essie At 06:40 AM 12/16/02 -0500, you wrote: Hugh - Let's do it! -Allan Dear Per, We need a discussion on this. Radionics, is not exactly the same as field broadcasting. But they are related. I'll have to get back to this. In the meanwhile, any others like to have a go at this? Hugh Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: Perfect Orchard
Hi Richard, From what I understand of grape vines and rot development of the grapes it needs more space than what a chisel plow will do, ( grape rots need to have their tap rot go down 6/8 feet? ) also you are only touching the surface of the hardpan digging will do a real trench, topsoil on the other hand and the problem that I have created with digging the trench, I Don't know god or bad ?? No need to resort to explosives (gelignite) What is gelignite it sound like a stone ?? Thanks Per Garp/NH, Loudon - Original Message - From: Richard Kalin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:20 AM Subject: Perfect Orchard We have the same stoney hardpan here in Hollis NH. A 2-foot deep chisel plow will get rid of it and leave all the topsoil in place. No need to resort to explosives (gelignite). - Original Message - From: Peter Michael Bacchus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 4:49 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? Dear Per Now that you have given your location and soil description it is easier to make a suggestion. Have your soil chemistry analyzed by Brookside Lab. or similar then work on balancing your cation exchange to suit grape vines. Drain as mentioned and form up windrows to plant on. grape roots like to be warm. I would be a bit cautious about sheep and goat manure as they tend to make the ground harder, or at least that is my experience. Horse manure has the most soil loosening effect, followed by cow. This is of course to be composted and prepped. Then be generous with the Horn manure and barrel compost. You need to get the soil life going which means you may need to drain to avoid waterlogging at any time. If you really do need to loosen the subsoil mechanically I suggest that you look at gelignite, I have seen it used to good effect under trees that were stunted by hard pan. In this way the topsoil would remain on top. Go and have a look at what Steven Storch is doing and perhaps get some advice from him. Best of luck, Peter. - Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? I appreciate this comments, We are here permanently, Hardpan is very common in the Eastern US, in NH winery's are Uncommon. Gypsum has been suggested in the past but only a hand full of it in for each grape planting. Hardpan in the NH is a sand like product with a bunch of stones large to small, it act much like quicksand when water soaked, water have a hard time penetrate it and that's way I need to drain my fields as grapes do not like wet feet's. We do not have any clay, as far as what I have seen. On top of the Hard pan we have 1 to 2 feet's of good top soil Some time more some time less pending on location and past cow manure deposit. We have consider ripping the hardpan whit a 2-3 foot Hardpan buster type of equipment but have fund that it is harder to do a good job of that type of equipment, a 3x3 dug ditch seems more functional. ( But more costly) and then the gypsum can do it's job !? I plan to cover the rows with wood chips, (and add goat and sheep manure)as a soil help and to prevent grass and competition. (I like to see chickens and Guinea fouls in the fields) Please describe the full BD cycle. Thanks Per Garp/NH
Re: Perfect Orchard
- Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Hi Allan Lloyd - I take it that this is the 'dolomite' that Pat Colbey recommends as a free choice mineral supplement for livestock. Yes Everyone - Is LIME what we would ask for to get 'dolomitic lime'? Is this something that one can buy with confidence at the coop or is it best purchased from an organic amendment salesman? Allan Be specific when you buy - if you want dolomite - ask for dolomite or dolomitic lime If your soil needs magnesium and calcium then ask for dolomite BUT you will probably only need a percentage of the treatment as dolomite and the rest will need to be high calcium lime - you will only need dolomite or magnesium as a soil amendment on light loam and sandy soils If you have soils from medium clay loam on you should not want dolomite so ask for high calcium lime and see an analysis of the product from where it is mined. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard
From what I've heard, the hardpan we have in New England is the result of improper plowing. When I put in a French Intensive garden 25 years ago, I dug down 30+ inches by hand. The hardpan was a 6 thick layer about a foot below the surface. Once I pickaxed through it, the digging got easy again, relatively speaking. Not having access to manure at the time, I refilled the trenches with a mixture of soil and leaves. I used to impress visitors with how I could push a bamboo garden stake 2-1/2 feet deep into the ground. Samuel Kaymen (Stony Field Farm Yogurt) introduced me to the chisel plow. He used it on a worn out piece of hillside and harvested 2-foot long carrots the next year. How far down is your water table? - Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:15 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Hi Richard, From what I understand of grape vines and rot development of the grapes it needs more space than what a chisel plow will do, ( grape rots need to have their tap rot go down 6/8 feet? ) also you are only touching the surface of the hardpan digging will do a real trench, topsoil on the other hand and the problem that I have created with digging the trench, I Don't know god or bad ?? No need to resort to explosives (gelignite) What is gelignite it sound like a stone ?? Thanks Per Garp/NH, Loudon - Original Message - From: Richard Kalin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:20 AM Subject: Perfect Orchard We have the same stoney hardpan here in Hollis NH. A 2-foot deep chisel plow will get rid of it and leave all the topsoil in place. No need to resort to explosives (gelignite). - Original Message - From: Peter Michael Bacchus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 4:49 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? Dear Per Now that you have given your location and soil description it is easier to make a suggestion. Have your soil chemistry analyzed by Brookside Lab. or similar then work on balancing your cation exchange to suit grape vines. Drain as mentioned and form up windrows to plant on. grape roots like to be warm. I would be a bit cautious about sheep and goat manure as they tend to make the ground harder, or at least that is my experience. Horse manure has the most soil loosening effect, followed by cow. This is of course to be composted and prepped. Then be generous with the Horn manure and barrel compost. You need to get the soil life going which means you may need to drain to avoid waterlogging at any time. If you really do need to loosen the subsoil mechanically I suggest that you look at gelignite, I have seen it used to good effect under trees that were stunted by hard pan. In this way the topsoil would remain on top. Go and have a look at what Steven Storch is doing and perhaps get some advice from him. Best of luck, Peter. - Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? I appreciate this comments, We are here permanently, Hardpan is very common in the Eastern US, in NH winery's are Uncommon. Gypsum has been suggested in the past but only a hand full of it in for each grape planting. Hardpan in the NH is a sand like product with a bunch of stones large to small, it act much like quicksand when water soaked, water have a hard time penetrate it and that's way I need to drain my fields as grapes do not like wet feet's. We do not have any clay, as far as what I have seen. On top of the Hard pan we have 1 to 2 feet's of good top soil Some time more some time less pending on location and past cow manure deposit. We have consider ripping the hardpan whit a 2-3 foot Hardpan buster type of equipment but have fund that it is harder to do a good job of that type of equipment, a 3x3 dug ditch seems more functional. ( But more costly) and then the gypsum can do it's job !? I plan to cover the rows with wood chips, (and add goat and sheep manure)as a soil help and to prevent grass and competition. (I like to see chickens and Guinea fouls in the fields) Please describe the full BD cycle. Thanks Per Garp/NH
Re: Perfect Orchard ??
Dear Per Now that you have given your location and soil description it is easier to make a suggestion. Have your soil chemistry analyzed by Brookside Lab. or similar then work on balancing your cation exchange to suit grape vines. Drain as mentioned and form up windrows to plant on. grape roots like to be warm. I would be a bit cautious about sheep and goat manure as they tend to make the ground harder, or at least that is my experience. Horse manure has the most soil loosening effect, followed by cow. This is of course to be composted and prepped. Then be generous with the Horn manure and barrel compost. You need to get the soil life going which means you may need to drain to avoid waterlogging at any time. If you really do need to loosen the subsoil mechanically I suggest that you look at gelignite, I have seen it used to good effect under trees that were stunted by hard pan. In this way the topsoil would remain on top. Go and have a look at what Steven Storch is doing and perhaps get some advice from him. Best of luck, Peter. - Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard ?? I appreciate this comments, We are here permanently, Hardpan is very common in the Eastern US, in NH winery's are Uncommon. Gypsum has been suggested in the past but only a hand full of it in for each grape planting. Hardpan in the NH is a sand like product with a bunch of stones large to small, it act much like quicksand when water soaked, water have a hard time penetrate it and that's way I need to drain my fields as grapes do not like wet feet's. We do not have any clay, as far as what I have seen. On top of the Hard pan we have 1 to 2 feet's of good top soil Some time more some time less pending on location and past cow manure deposit. We have consider ripping the hardpan whit a 2-3 foot Hardpan buster type of equipment but have fund that it is harder to do a good job of that type of equipment, a 3x3 dug ditch seems more functional. ( But more costly) and then the gypsum can do it's job !? I plan to cover the rows with wood chips, (and add goat and sheep manure)as a soil help and to prevent grass and competition. (I like to see chickens and Guinea fouls in the fields) Please describe the full BD cycle. Thanks Per Garp/NH
Re: Perfect Orchard
Hi Gil and all -One can not create a hard pan in sand, gravel or loam- Our hardpan was created when our part of the would was a part of the African continent and the plates was under water for millions of year's ? (words from our university people) Most of the Eastern US have this stuff. Hardpan in our case are nearly always sandy. Clay is around but you need to look for it. Our hardpan is a 10 cm thick layer of compressed sand, and if you dig more the sand will be more coarser the more/dipper you dig, normally a dug well is 10/20 feet dip here and it will have water Please describe the difference cycles: -there is nothing like a fully functional BD cycle to assist. A good organic cycle will also -work, but I see a BD cycle as being better. In a Chemical Cycle BD cycle Organic cycle Chemical cycle Please elaborate -does not bring salt or clay to the surface, nor does it bury the soil in the lower levels. - Are you stating that digging a trench and mixing the soil and sub-soil is a bad thing ?? To recap, you would recommend gypsum 4 ton/hectare (=1 ton/acre) over 4 year ?? Please explain -"functional cationic forces to hold water and minerals"- Thanks for all of this comments, they are very helpful Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 06:23 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Hi! Markess, While Lute Larson may have developed additional rates, she started with the same that I have access to, but have not has occasion to use, in the case of Hard Pan. Hard Pan either indicates the lower point of tillage and is some times treated by the sue of irregular depth tines or chisel plough. It usually is associated with clay or some form a colloidal. It may be related to loading by stock or machinery, again related to a clay layer. One can not create a hard pan in sand, gravel or loam. The advantage of using Gypsum, in some places called Clay Breaker or Pan Breaker, is that it is a very low impact, energetic method, which requires little fuel/ machinery and does not bring salt or clay to the surface, nor does it bury the soil in the lower levels. As I have said before, there is nothing like a fully functional BD cycle to assist. A good organic cycle will also work, but I see a BD cycle as being better. In a Chemical Cycle, most activity is in the top 50 mil (2") or so. A really high firing Organic or BD Cycle can penetrate 400, 500 or even 600 mil. This will require enough soil biota food, as stated in the earlier post, and mineral balancing, if required. In cases of bad pan, gypsum will bring results in months instead of years. The amount of gypsum held in the space made by cupping both hands and spread on a square metre is about one tonne to the hectare and is the minimum amount. If one has half a metre to one and a half metres to deal with, to get down to weathered granite and to allow in ground drainage, such as in totally saturated soils, then, one may use up to four tonne to the hectare. This would not usually be applied at one time, but over two to four years. Over time the effect of the gypsum will fall away and on occasionally, need replication. I have 50 mil to 150 mil of highly clayey top soil, with 100 to 150 mil of clayey sub-soil, with 600 to 1,200 mil of sticky brown clay, over a penetrable weathered granite of 700 to 1,500 mil, then solid granite. I have gone from drowning fruit trees and vines to allowing drainage, with the equivalent of around three tonne to the hectare over three years. This has been supported with composting/ Preps/ Soil Food. The roots can now get down to the natural mineral layers. I( have over come the difficulties related to the drying of clay soils, where there is great damage to the root hairs, which only shows up later as set back trees and is usually regarded as being something else. If your soils clump, clod or crack, you have to look at breaking them with gypsum. When looking at this, do not get carried away with trying to work out the chemistry. We are dealing with energy and the various attractive forces at a molecular level. We still need some functional cationic forces to hold water and minerals for use by the soil biota and ultimately the plant, but we also need to allow penetration of air and water. Moen Creek wrote: Gil you wrote: Clay has the ability to cling together and form tough blocks. Great for making adobe or pise houses. Increased soil carbon and increased soil biota will help, but in the short term use one to four tonnes of gypsum to the hectare, will break the clay and allow water penetration and largely break the pan without ripping. If you trench, you will most likely loose your soil into the lower regions and bring the clay to the surface. It
Re: Perfect Orchard
Title: Re: Perfect Orchard Lloyd, Gil etal., One of the parts Per had written was: In our case we also need to drain the field from stagnated water, Now over the years I others have brought bladder infections and diarrhea etc. back from health threateningness. By dowsing the correct potency of the burning urine or stool soup and potentizing it as a remedy. (There is of course still the need to set the system to balance etc. but it stops the gross expression of the dis-ease literally can keep one in the body!) So where I am going is obvious: potentize the stagnate water and broadcast it to the field as part of the remedial work. ?. But her I am trying to resolve a situation and need to ask: Per what else do you know of the soils history? In Love Light Markess
Re: Perfect Orchard
Title: Re: Perfect Orchard HI AND GOOD MORNING -Per what else do you know of the soils history?- This farm was establish proximally 1830 or so, it was a hors farm at first, but it turned to be a milking farm probably in the 20/30 as ware common sheep farming was the big thing but that's a guess, all our fields have been farmed all this time probably with grasses for hey. Manure from cows and/or sheep have been spread on the fields for many years, but for 10 years as of lately normal chemical have been spread in the spring, our pond/ water are normally contaminated with runofffrom a farm up the street. (covered with green slime stuff)We have goats and sheep to help prepare the land for grapes. Thanks Per Garp/NH - Original Message - From: Moen Creek To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 11:23 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Lloyd, Gil etal.,One of the parts Per had written was:In our case we also need to drain the field from stagnated water,Now over the years I others have brought bladder infections and diarrhea etc. back from health threateningness. By dowsing the correct potency of the burning urine or stool soup and potentizing it as a remedy. (There is of course still the need to set the system to balance etc. but it stops the gross expression of the dis-ease literally can keep one in the body!)So where I am going is obvious: potentize the stagnate water and broadcast it to the field as part of the remedial work. ?. But her I am trying to resolve a situation and need to ask:Per what else do you know of the soils history?In Love LightMarkess
Re: Perfect Orchard
- Original Message - From: COYOTEHILLFARM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:19 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Hi Gil and all -One can not create a hard pan in sand, gravel or loam- Our hardpan was created when our part of the would was a part of the African continent and the plates was under water for millions of year's ? (words from our university people) Most of the Eastern US have this stuff. Gooday Per Garp I live in a different part of Australia to Gil and we have no trouble finding hardpan in sand, gravel or loam soils, usually at shallow depth, cultivation to break it will work, but if the basic chemistry and microbes are not taken care of it will quickly reform - usually at the bottom of the new level of cultivation - so all that ripping does in the long term is drive the hardpan further down the profile. If you intend to rip (or dig trenches) you need to do a soil test of the subsoil (a full CEC test with all trace minerals) to make sure that you are not going to expose yourself to more problems in the form of chemical imbalances that are in the subsoil (accumulated Boron and high Sodium would be two that I would look for in southern Australian soils). If the mixed soil will make a decent soil test then its OK to proceed but there are often problems in the subsoil that are better left undisturbed. You should probably read some of the acres eco farming books (Phil Wheeler, Arden Andersen) If you have low calcium soil, Lime is needed to restore the CEC balance and you will need a carbon source to hold and activate it. Get the soil critters working for you but remember that like you, they work best with food, water,air, and a comfortable home. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard
Lloyd, Gil etal., One of the parts Per had written was: In our case we also need to drain the field from stagnated water, Now over the years I others have brought bladder infections and diarrhea etc. back from health threateningness. By dowsing the correct potency of the burning urine or stool soup and potentizing it as a remedy. (There is of course still the need to set the system to balance etc. but it stops the gross expression of the dis-ease literally can keep one in the body!) So where I am going is obvious: potentize the stagnate water and broadcast it to the field as part of the remedial work. ?. Hi Markess This is interesting!!. I drank a lot of rough water as a youngster - pond water - roadside puddles - as long as there was no actual dead body visible I would drink it - I developed a little more sense as I grew older - but I never had stomach or bladder problems from drinking water with bugs in it, and almost never got diarrhea either. Chemical treated town water is a different issue, dont like that stuff. I guess I'm thinking that if there's chemicals in this stagnant water its a bad idea? otherwise would probably be good? Also think Gils idea of broadcasting rates for porosity, air circulation, is good, I've done this using Rae cards and got good reactions (there's a card for unbeneficial effect of pesticides too). Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard
Dear Per, We need a discussion on this. Radionics, is not exactly the same as field broadcasting. But they are related. I'll have to get back to this. In the meanwhile, any others like to have a go at this? Hugh Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: Perfect Orchard ??
- Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:32 AM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Hi Gil I disagree very strongly with some of what you have recommended in this post to Per Garp !! lets have a look but in the short term use one to four tonnes of gypsum to the hectare, will break the clay and allow water penetration and largely break the pan without ripping. Man - four tonnes of gypsum is way way too much for the good health of soil - sure it will open up that clay - almost blow it apart!! - and with the rains or irrigation a whole bunch of valuable mineral nutrition will be flushed out into the drainage system along with some of what is causing the problem. For gosh sakes go gently with this stuff! Use a little bit! Soil carbon and soil biota activity are inter-related. In Oz we have very low soil carbon and are for ever looking for ways of adding carbon. Coal dust from a coal washing facility/ some fly ashes from power stations, Coal dust is inert carbon, almost USELESS for soil nutrition in the short term - yes it pumps up the soil carbon numbers on a soil test but is not active. Power station fly ash is a prime suspect for contamination and the few samples I have looked at have in every case I tested brought the radionic energy of the soil sample DOWN. composts of high carbon materials etc can be used if available. Thats better!! Calcium will come from the application of gypsum. And leave almost as quick as it came! LIME is the way to get good calcium levels, gypsum is a real good source of sulphur at fertiliser rates and a good softener for sodic soils but never forget that with gypsum you are applying sulphur in the active sulphate form and too much will do a lot of long term harm. There are farms in the US that started with applications of 4 to 5 ton /ha gypsum and have progressed rapidly to using neat sulphuric acid as a soil amendment because they blew all their nutrients off the soil colloid with excess gypsum As far as traffic impacted soil, try and keep the loading as low as possible, particularly when wet. Also I note that the soil does not compact as much if the full BD cycle is carried out. Gil The other advice given with regard to green manuring, tillage, wet weather traffic, etc is good and I agree with all of that just not these points listed above. Sorry but on this soil amendment stuff I just cant go the conventional big hammer chemical agriculture track. cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard
Hi Markess (and others following this thread) But I believe Lute Larson and others have had great Radionic success with hard pan and even standing water using Radionic rates to increase porosity and air circulation. The field broadcaster would be a great device to set these patterns consistently. For sure ! and there are Malcolm Rae cards for these conditions that can be used in the small, cheap, potentiser instruments, I have about ten cards that relate to soil health, in addition to the BD cards, that I use quite often in the field broadcasters. Given my assumed role of CU ZN in soil's circulation of light do you think that gypsum would decrease heavy clays tendencies to towards celating these metals. Hm ! The conventional guys would talk about Cu ZN as electrolytes - circulation of electrical energy - not so different - you have nailed it here - gypsum does loosen up and release these metallic nutrients into the soil solution - thats why a little bit of gypsum (in the right soils) is nice and a lot is damaging Gypsum as a gem stone has interesting transmissions of laser light with odd effects ie halos and hot spots. The gypsum thats mined for sale tends to be variable and have lots of extraneous material in it - maybe just the same thing in the gem grade stuff - impurities refracting light at different rates and angles?? Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Perfect Orchard
Hi! Per Garp/NH, Has it occurred that you may not have a suitable site for what you want to do? By this I mean would it be better to obtain a more suited site? If you are stuck with the site:- Hard pan usually means several things are involved. Clay, not enough soil carbon, reduced soil biota activity, lack of air/ oxygen in the soil, water saturated soil for at least part of the year, not enough calcium in the soil, heavy traffic, either machinery or stock on wet and depleted soil. Clay has the ability to cling together and form tough blocks. Great for making adobe or pise houses. Increased soil carbon and increased soil biota will help, but in the short term use one to four tonnes of gypsum to the hectare, will break the clay and allow water penetration and largely break the pan without ripping. If you trench, you will most likely loose your soil into the lower regions and bring the clay to the surface. It will also tend to make a place for water to lay and rot the roots. I would not do it. Try gypsum first. Soil carbon and soil biota activity are inter-related. In Oz we have very low soil carbon and are for ever looking for ways of adding carbon. Coal dust from a coal washing facility/ some fly ashes from power stations, composts of high carbon materials etc can be used if available. With all these it is most important to have enough nitrogen in the soil to allow the soil biota to use these. Growing legume cover crops is the best way to do this. Do not get sucked into chemical nitrogen, most of it is not in a form the soil/ plants can use. Other wise it is a matter of growing as much cover crops etc and allowing it incorporate. This may be just mowing and allowing to lay on top, or incorporating with tillage. If chopped finely and sprayed with the compost preps, they will break down and enter the soil surprisingly quickly. My preference is low till/ no till. To get the soil biota going, some dilute molasses or other sugar sprayed in the cut cover crop with the preps will really help. Soil oxygenation will tend to come with the use of gypsum and improved soil carbon and soil activity. One can use a chisel plough, but I prefer to let the soil biota do it. Water stagnation may be site related, but if it is related to the pan, it will improve as the effect of the above comes into play. Calcium will come from the application of gypsum. The test for enough calcium is to walk around in really wet weather. If you have to clean your boots to get in the car, you do not have enough calcium, so add more gypsum. As far as traffic impacted soil, try and keep the loading as low as possible, particularly when wet. Also I note that the soil does not compact as much if the full BD cycle is carried out. Gil COYOTEHILLFARM wrote: Perfect Orchard what would it be like. A very practical question, please describe an ideal plantation of an Orchard starting from scratch. In my case with a hard pan, and we will plant Hybrids grapes (cold hardy types) We will start digging a 3 foot wide trench 3 foot dip for the purpose of loosening up the hardpan, and as long as we plan to plant. In our case we also need to drain the field from stagnated water, Ok, what do we do next ?? Hardy and decease resistant grapes. Mulch or not Cover crop or not What type of cover crop Companion planting with the cover crop Grassing animals in the vineyard and more Thanks, for your input. Per Garp/NH
Re: Perfect Orchard
Hi Gil, I'm wondering why you recomend gypum instead of lime for adding calcium. Do you just put the gypsum on top of the soil or do you incorporate it? Thanks, Daniel - Original Message - From: Gil Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Perfect Orchard Hi! Per Garp/NH, Has it occurred that you may not have a suitable site for what you want to do? By this I mean would it be better to obtain a more suited site? If you are stuck with the site:- Hard pan usually means several things are involved. Clay, not enough soil carbon, reduced soil biota activity, lack of air/ oxygen in the soil, water saturated soil for at least part of the year, not enough calcium in the soil, heavy traffic, either machinery or stock on wet and depleted soil. Clay has the ability to cling together and form tough blocks. Great for making adobe or pise houses. Increased soil carbon and increased soil biota will help, but in the short term use one to four tonnes of gypsum to the hectare, will break the clay and allow water penetration and largely break the pan without ripping. If you trench, you will most likely loose your soil into the lower regions and bring the clay to the surface. It will also tend to make a place for water to lay and rot the roots. I would not do it. Try gypsum first. Soil carbon and soil biota activity are inter-related. In Oz we have very low soil carbon and are for ever looking for ways of adding carbon. Coal dust from a coal washing facility/ some fly ashes from power stations, composts of high carbon materials etc can be used if available. With all these it is most important to have enough nitrogen in the soil to allow the soil biota to use these. Growing legume cover crops is the best way to do this. Do not get sucked into chemical nitrogen, most of it is not in a form the soil/ plants can use. Other wise it is a matter of growing as much cover crops etc and allowing it incorporate. This may be just mowing and allowing to lay on top, or incorporating with tillage. If chopped finely and sprayed with the compost preps, they will break down and enter the soil surprisingly quickly. My preference is low till/ no till. To get the soil biota going, some dilute molasses or other sugar sprayed in the cut cover crop with the preps will really help. Soil oxygenation will tend to come with the use of gypsum and improved soil carbon and soil activity. One can use a chisel plough, but I prefer to let the soil biota do it. Water stagnation may be site related, but if it is related to the pan, it will improve as the effect of the above comes into play. Calcium will come from the application of gypsum. The test for enough calcium is to walk around in really wet weather. If you have to clean your boots to get in the car, you do not have enough calcium, so add more gypsum. As far as traffic impacted soil, try and keep the loading as low as possible, particularly when wet. Also I note that the soil does not compact as much if the full BD cycle is carried out. Gil COYOTEHILLFARM wrote: Perfect Orchard what would it be like. A very practical question, please describe an ideal plantation of an Orchard starting from scratch. In my case with a hard pan, and we will plant Hybrids grapes (cold hardy types) We will start digging a 3 foot wide trench 3 foot dip for the purpose of loosening up the hardpan, and as long as we plan to plant. In our case we also need to drain the field from stagnated water, Ok, what do we do next ?? Hardy and decease resistant grapes. Mulch or not Cover crop or not What type of cover crop Companion planting with the cover crop Grassing animals in the vineyard and more Thanks, for your input. Per Garp/NH
Perfect Orchard
Perfect Orchard what would it be like. A very practical question, please describe an ideal plantation of an Orchard starting from scratch. In my case with a hard pan, and we will plant Hybrids grapes (cold hardy types) We will start digging a 3 foot wide trench 3 foot dip for the purpose of loosening up the hardpan, and as long as we plan to plant. In our case we also need to drain the field from stagnated water, Ok, what do we do next ?? Hardy and decease resistant grapes. Mulch or not Cover crop or not What type of cover crop Companion planting with the cover crop Grassing animals in the vineyard and more Thanks, for your input. Per Garp/NH
