RE: The Lost Hearts and Minds
Gary Denton, disowning responsibility: Mike Lee ignoring the title and head of the post. This is what we have now caused our supporters in Iraq to think. You posted that crap with your full stamp of approval. It's disgusting that you now try to sidestep on that. And worse that nobody else on this list has objected, except to what I said back. -Mike Lee Honest Liberal ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
that is competent and impartial to decide on their status. Amnesty International is entitled to their opinion (in the US), but they are wrong. Where it's fucking obvious, we don't have to convene a tribunal. So now you are down with the Red Cross? It is interesting to see what you base your claims of moral superiority on. No, Gary Gary the Prepositionally Challenged Fairy, I'm down ON the Red Cross. Lets see, you agree Bush is a right wing moron and that what happened in Iraqi prisons is wrong. I think we are making progress. When have I ever said otherwise? I'm not progressing. I'm reiterating. Bush gets it that the sand Nazis intend to turn the whole world into Thunderdome. Kerry doesn't get it. Kerry doesn't get anything. I bet he doesn't even get laid by the Ketchup Kween. What happened in those Iraqi prisons is oh-so wrong, as I've said over and over, more eloquently and insightfully by far than anyone on this list. And it doesn't prove America is evil. It proves we're human, and the way we've reacted so far proves we're better than the rest. We should apologize to Arabs, but we should take no shit off them. They can accept the apology or go to hell. We offered the apology because we're living up to our standards, not because they have any standards. Mike Lee Islamic Physics Professor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The Lost Hearts and Minds
Gary Denton, showing his true colors: I don't understand the 'shock' Americans claim to feel at the lurid pictures. You've seen the troops break down doors and terrify women and children. curse, scream, push, pull and throw people to the ground with a boot over their head. You've seen troops shoot civilians in cold blood. You've seen them bomb cities and towns. You've seen them burn cars and humans using tanks and helicopters. Is this latest debacle so very shocking or appalling? snip There was a time when people here felt sorry for the troops. No matter what one's attitude was towards the occupation, there were moments of pity towards the troops, regardless of their nationality. We would see them suffering the Iraqi sun, obviously wishing they were somewhere else and somehow, that vulnerability made them seem less monstrous and more human. That time has passed. People look at troops now and see the pictures of Abu Ghraib. and we burn with shame and anger and frustration at not being able to do something. Now that the world knows that the torture has been going on since the very beginning, do people finally understand what happened in Falloojeh? And through all this, Bush gives his repulsive speeches. He makes an appearance on Arabic tv channels looking sheepish and attempting to look sincere, babbling on about how this 'incident' wasn't representative of the American people or even the army, regardless of the fact that it's been going on for so long. He asks Iraqis to not let these pictures reflect on their attitude towards the American people. and yet when the bodies were dragged through the streets of Falloojeh, the American troops took it upon themselves to punish the whole city. You don't know very many people in the military, do you? I don't expect anyone on this list, except the one or two reviled conservatives, to recoil or denounce this. Prove me wrong. Gary Denton hates America, hates Western civilization, doesn't even genuflect to the ridiculous fiction of supporting the troops. There's a clear choice in November: Bush/Cheney or Kerry/Denton. Denton just said that the burned and mutilated bodies of some Americans in Fallujah were less offensive than some dumbitch from West Virginia pointing and laughing at some terrorist's dick. We must understand and feel guilty for being the cause of our own murder and mutilation, according to Gary. Fallujah still stands, and our forbearance means nothing to Gary. He can't tell the difference between feeding someone into a woodchipper and leading a prisoner around on a leash. Yeah, America blew it. We did bad things and didn't supervise sufficiently. We may even have killed a couple dozen people for no reason. Does the phrase orders of magnitude ring a bell? I'm done talking to Gary. I may be done talking to the rest of you. I've listened to your all your faux bitching about me not being nice to you when you've come to expect everyone to be nice to you no matter how stupid what you say is. It's been entertaining, I'll say that. I love plinking stupid people in the forehead. But Gary has gone way over the line. I can't wait to see what y'all will say now. I don't expect much, so surprise me, prove you're not just a cozy coterie of moral dilettantes. Mike Lee Liberal Patriot ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: New Hate-Mongering Chick Tract is out
The Fool has his knickers in a twist: Subject: New Hate-Mongering Chick Tract is out This is indescribable: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052/1052_01.asp Homophobe apologists (like JDG), only empower people like Chick. Oh, for Christ's sake. I love Chick comics. They're a hott. I've been running across them since I was a kid. If you want to do something to help build tolerance for gays, hand this one out to high schoolers. Sometimes I think Jack Chick is really a minion of Satan sent to make Christians look silly. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
When Gary's right, he's right (vis a vis Rumsfeld declaring that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to most of the assholes we have in jail in Iraq). But Rumsfeld is right too, on the law. The Geneva Conventions do not apply to everyone who picks a fight with us, especially if they violate the rules defined in the conventions. You can argue that we should observe the Geneva Conventions, regardless of whether we are legally bound to do so, but that's different from arguing we're violating them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Denton Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 12:24 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture On Fri, 7 May 2004 02:20:34 -0500, Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but forgot to include the url Washington Post - The lawlessness began in January 2002 when Mr. Rumsfeld publicly declared that hundreds of people detained by U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan do not have any rights under the Geneva Conventions. That was not the case: At a minimum, all those arrested in the war zone were entitled under the conventions to a formal hearing to determine whether they were prisoners of war or unlawful combatants. No such hearings were held, but then Mr. Rumsfeld made clear that U.S. observance of the convention was now optional. Prisoners, he said, would be treated for the most part in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the conventions -- which, the secretary breezily suggested, was outdated. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5840-2004May5.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
keeping POWs in cells or isolated from each other. Those are the kinds of provisions we need to violate. When the cops interrogate criminals they don't put them all in the same holding cell so they can get their stories straight. What our MPs did to those prisoners in Iraq sucked. Whether it technically violated the conventions, I don't know or care. I'm proud of how the Bushies have sucked it up and taken their lumps. No, they haven't been perfect. Bush didn't say the A-word timely. Rumsfeld was a little defensive the first time he was confronted about it. But what the Chappaquiddick Kid did today was beyond shameful, and Rumsfeld was spot on, only losing his temper at stupidity a couple of times today. If you think the dog and pony show that went on today is going to play well with the voters, please keep thinking that. As a great man once said, Bring it on! Amnesty International and others in the coalition, however, have argued that those held in Guantanamo are presumed to be prisoners of war, and if there is any doubt about their status, it is not the prerogative of the US secretary of defense to unilaterally make the determination. Fuck Amnesty International. I used to give them money. What a maroon. Amnesty International can take the issue to court or go to hell. They choose soft targets and ignore the really bad stuff. Poseurs. According to Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention, said Amnesty, the US must convene a competent tribunal that is competent and impartial to decide on their status. Read more, believe AI propaganda less. This is also the position exposed by the International Committee of the Red Cross, considered a key interpreter of the Geneva Conventions. First, that would be espoused, not exposed and second, too bad for the Red Cross. They shouldn't play politics like this or they could go the way of French wine in America. Really, I'm about done with taking crap off my moral inferiors, especially when they are wallowing in their pretensions to moral superiority. Which has a lot to do with my attitude when posting in this forum. Mike Lee Islamic Easter Bunny ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: New Hate-Mongering Chick Tract is out
Nick said: Besides, we Christians, as a group, really don't need *any* help at this sort of thing. But perhaps I'm just being silly. Silly Christian. Chick's are for kids! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Gary Denton, putting me in Oh, Please! mode: Mike Lee Savior of the Masses writes: Like all true Saviors, the masses loathe me. You have a very good point here. Even a blind hog can find an acorn now and then. Seems to be your version of a compliment. If you can't tell a compliment from an insult, I hope you enjoy eating that acorn. See, here's your problem: You link to and cling to anything that makes America look bad. You do your little happy dance whenever we fuck up. I did not do a happy dance Well, I guess it's hard to call it dancing, but it was pretty happy. thing, you seem to have gone of the talking point it was just just the equivalent of hazing. It really is the equivalent of hazing. As an Iraqi, being in American custody is orders of magnitude better than being in the same jail before we showed up. It's annoying to have to make this point. The soldiers who did that, I want them (metaphorically) crucified. But the hydrophobic hyperbole from the left is forcing me to defend what happened. It's like when you have to defend some weird pornographer on free speech grounds. The liberals and leftists you despise were pointing out the corruption in the Food for Oil program since just after it started. For various reasons it is a big talking point for conservatives now to use against those same liberals and leftists. If it's been a big talking point for you ll's for so long, why shut up now? Where are the demonstrations organized by ANSWER in front of the UN building? Where's Michael Whoore or John Kerry talking about it every damn day? Ya'll went piranha on Marthat Stewart. Let's see you shred Kofi like he deserves. North Korea has always been a bigger threat, a worse mass murderer. True enough, on the mass murderer side of it. No, they're not a bigger threat. They think they're a bigger threat, but then again they're run by a guy who thinks that haircut looks good. The Sudan, Columbia, Cuban suppression of dissent are all problems. It is not the left in America who makes a habit of supporting dictators until it becomes time to demonize and get rid of them. Stalin and Mao don't count, I guess? At least the right supports itty bitty dictators, unlike you leftists who say that as soon as a dictator kills 10 million he's no longer a cult but a church. Every American who commits a misdemeanor deserves the death penalty. Point out where I have said that. In fact, you have been down on the American soldiers. I am more disgusted by the intel boys setting up these operations. Note that the section where the problems took place is run by the experts from Gitmo. Well, I hope you enjoyed that acorn, because obviously you're not going to find another one soon. First, I didn't say you said that. I interpreted you, as in interpretive dunce. Second, fuck yeah, I'm down on those soldiers. The whining and we weren't trained shit makes me want to make them get naked in a big pyramid while I fire paintballs up their stupid asses. Of course, I would never do that, because I have been properly trained. Here's the point everyone must get: They were HAVING FUN in those pictures. Those pictures were SOUVENIRS. Saying that they only did this because they weren't trained or because the chain of command really wanted it is just plain stupid. That doesn't mean the chain of command should get off scot free. Brigadier General Dumbitch, whether she knew about this or not, deserve cashiering for her mewling excuse making. But as for everyone else, let's see what comes out in the wash. Your attention is drawn to where your hatred is, and that's for America. I despise the people who through racism, ignorance, jingoism and and no understanding of American democracy, balance of powers and the Constitution are shredding American values and losing the respect of the world. Ooh, yeah, we need to retain the respect of the French, the Belch and the Germs. And the Islamic world, they're so into human rights too. Screw the world. It's time they started feeling like they need to live up to our standards, instead of expecting us to excuse theirs. But you make an interesting, if deranged, point: what exactly is it about what's going on that's unconstitutional and destroying the separation of powers? You, on the other hand, are a precancerous wart on the butt of the West. Continuing your witty and elevated discourse. At least I'm accurate. You need biopsying. Bush had his typical pattern, nice words, no apology, just a few bad apples, not much real action, patronizing tone to you Arabs. First, I'm sick of you idiots whose only slogan has become Bush should apologize for everything! By the way, Bush just used the word apologize but it still won't make you happy. What he did was gutsy and difficult and you don't care. No matter what he does, you'll find some way to bitch about it. He went on Arab TV and did an interview and condemned
RE: March for Women's Lives
Jim, lacking parenting experience: As my brother-in-law (a stay at home dad*) put it having one kid is a hobby, adding a second makes it a career. It definitely gets exponentially harder with the second one. That is so dumb. It does not. And it's probably not what he meant anyway. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: What America Does with its Hegemony
Gary Denton, traitor in waiting: Neo-imperialist or even, as a couple political scientists have pointed, out neo-confederate might be better. Hey, Gary, there's a whole bunch of us not afraid to say that Western democracy is better by far than anything the Muslims have done since the invention of zero. I'm all for imperialism or confederacy or whatever it takes to make the sand Nazis quit cutting off little girls' clits and being racist morons and go out and get a job. Islam sucks. Anybody who can't say that out loud and proud is PC pussy-whipped dhimmi-bait. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Ronn, bemused: At 02:10 AM 5/5/04, Mike Lee wrote: And f$ck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way. Umm . . . -- Ronn! :) Yeah, I can see why you'd be left speechless and aroused by that. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Gary Denton, self-loathing American keeps on keeping on: Begin - Boston Globe:Civilians ID'd in abuse may face no charges When they get away with it, call me. The pointing-with-alarm-possibility that they might get away with it doesn't much make me care. Though I will give you credit if the pointing makes it more likely they don't get away with it. There was a systemic and ongoing problem with abuse and even deaths of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was an military intel and CIA operation whose operative and civilian contractors gave guidance and procedures to follow. There had been three separate Army generals writing reports which the pentagon had for months and refused to act on. You have a very good point here. Even a blind hog can find an acorn now and then. It's looking pretty bad for the military right now, and I'm not expecting it to look a lot better after the dust settles. Some of our soldiers and their commanders have been behaving badly. It reflects badly on the rest of us. We bear some responsibility for at least fixing it, and probably responsibility for it happening. According to the Financial Times, It has become commonplace for George W. Bush and Tony Blair to assert that the insurgents are enemies of democracy, but it is the US that most Iraqis see as anti-democratic. This is a disastrous image for a nation that waged a war promising freedom and democracy. http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/Story FT/FullStoryc=StoryFTcid=1083180270210p=1012571727088 See, here's your problem: You link to and cling to anything that makes America look bad. You do your little happy dance whenever we fuck up. You dont give a damn about the Saddam-sucking corruption of Kofi's UN boys. Or any of the other million bigger atrocities committed by anybody-but-Americans. Every American who commits a misdemeanor deserves the death penalty. Your attention is drawn to where your hatred is, and that's for America. I don't know what we did to piss you off and I don't care. George Bush may not be the brightest guy on the short bus, but Tony Blair is the first hero of the 21st Century (or maybe the second--Rudy Guiliani is certainly in the running). You, on the other hand, are a precancerous wart on the butt of the West. The NYT(earlier link) writes, the Pentagon, the State Department and the White House had difficulty explaining why they had not acted earlier and more aggressively to deal with the abuse. One reason: No one wants to admit to having read the report. According to the LA Times, the White House has known about the investigation since December. The report is 53 pages. It is available online. What are they waiting for? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/ Bush responded *appropriately*. John Kerry just lost the election today. Welcome to 4 more years of people like me running the country. Mike Lee Savior of the Masses ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Julia, trying to prove that the exceptions justify the rule: Actually, if you've got infant twins they have an older sibling who's still pretty young, or if you have triplets or more, you could really use the help for the first year or so. Hire someone or see how much family and friends are willing to do to help. (I know one woman with quadruplets; her sister is practically living there to help out with the kids. And she had them before her first child's second birthday, so that's a lot of kids in a very short period of time.) Ok, you win, Julia. If someone has quadruplets, that's pretty hard. What percentage of incompetent mothers have quadruplets? Hell, we probably should give massive overdoses of fertility drugs to all women, because if we made them all have quadruplets, even the incompetent ones would raise the level of their game just to survive. You can quote all the weird statistical anomolies you want, but that doesn't change the fact that most women don't even have twins much less quadruplets, and most mothers are whining incompetents with one child at a time. (And if you're working and you have twins or more, it's more cost-effective to hire a nanny than to put them all in daycare, at least for the first couple of years.) What great advice, you pampered princess! p.s. I'm wondering how many kids Mike Lee has, because it gets more interesting the more you have First, it only gets more interesting till about 3. Then the costs are marginal. Second, it's none of your damn business. I'm not basing my arguments on my own experience, but rather on my observation of the general incompetence of women to raise children (or do any other useful work). Third, well, I can't do a third, because I'd have to claim that not only is logic on my side but also experience. And I just don't want to do that. You're idiots. I can prove it. That settles it. Mike Lee Easter Bunny ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Gary Denton, Islamist traitor had this to say: Flattening it as you suggest would have cost us more support and universal condemnation. Or is that what you want? Since you keep proposing solutions that would increase hatred for America maybe you are on their side. No, Gary, you cute little girl, I'm saying, you're going to get all your Muslim friends killed you dumbass. I'm trying to save their lives. It doesn't matter who hates America. It matters who America hates. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Ronn insults my offspring: I sincerely \*hope*\ that the answer is zero, and also that he is single, otherwise I feel very sorry for some poor unfortunate woman and some innocent children . . . Ronn is very sorry. Feeling very sorry makes him feel very sorry. That gives Ronn a warm fuzzy. And, probably, a Happy Ending. Ick, Ronn, ick! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Julia, expressing her contempt for women who work instead of breed for a living: been eaten alive by undergrads in 3 minutes flat. :P If you can't handle a relatively simple phone system when you're being sent out by a temp agency to be a receptionist, there's very little hope for you in the short run. If you can't corral your toddlers, you'll likely fail as a receptionist like you've failed as a mother. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Julia, the voice of bloody reason: It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify all the people who participated in the torture-for-amusement, and turn them over to the Iraqi people. Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would be served, and it would be a hell of a deterrent against anyone else doing anything remotely like it for a good, long time. You sound like one of the Iraqi people. The more bloody-minded, primitive honor-killing sort. You want to lob a rock at Lynndie from West Virginnie? Cast the first stone or shut up. I've been told you're the heart of the list, a really sweet girl, and beyond criticism. In this post you engaged in a bloody hate fantasy. I'm in no mood right now to say something funny or provocative. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Guatam, justifiably pissed: That aside, I have to say that I find myself virtually incapable of thinking about this rationally. I am _quivering_ with rage about this. This is personal to me. I volunteered to go there almost a year ago. _Two weeks ago_ they called me to say that my security clearance was being processed and that a final offer might be imminent. Just by _volunteering_ I probably did permanent damage to my career at McKinsey, which was not a small thing to give up. These fucking idiots have permanently stained the effort of every one of my friends over there, of every _person_ working there in both the army and the civilian service. If the army decided to shoot them in the main street of _Baghdad_ I wouldn't be upset. I had a conversation with a friend of mine tonight who wanted all them executed too. I was the voice of reason about this (surprise! Surprise! Sergeant Carter!). The effect of what these young idiots did is huge. If it were just about them, I wouldn't punish them too harshly. They're already shocked and awed enough that they won't do crap like this again. But too bad for their lives. They should go to jail. We should use them to get the point through to their peers not to act like this. They read the rules, and we seldom enforce them this harshly, and they really probably don't deserve it, but too bad. Even if the rot went all the way up the chain of command, and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, they were dumb enough to get caught, and can be an object lesson. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Guatam, with spot-on analysis, as usual, until he loses it with a single word: would be too stupid for words). Some high-value prisoners were probably being aggressively interrogated. That ethos spread through much of the prison. The particular guards involved with this were a bunch of fuck-ups. They picked up that ethos, had no adult supervision (because, at least in part and from my experience with them, American officers tend to have a blind spot about things like this, in part because of their excellent historical record and in part because they're used to dealing with highly competent regulars, not idiots like these clowns, and those regulars would - I'm guessing - never do anything so unimaginably stupid and vile) and normal group dynamic behaviors - ones that we see in experimental psychology all the time - promptly asserted themselves, until you got the atrocity that we saw here. It wasn't an atrocity. It was Boys and Girls Behaving Badly. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Oh, and Gary forgot to mention: The Iraqi's name was Tawanna Brawley. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Denton Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 6:28 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture Here is the url - http://www.sundayherald.com/41693 Don't just blame untrained unsupervised Americans either: The British pictures show a hooded Iraqi aged between 18-20 on the floor of a military truck being brutalised. According to two squaddies who took part in the torture, but later blew the whistle, the Iraqi's ordeal lasted eight hours and he was left with a broken jaw and missing teeth. He was bleeding and vomited when his captors threw him out of a speeding truck. No-one knows if he lived or died. One of the British soldiers said: Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The other whistle-blower said he had witnessed a prisoner being beaten senseless by troops. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine ... One of the lads broke his wrist off a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot kicking him. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Gary, in ugly self-loathing American mode: So we aren't like Saddam because our guys are wimps and not bloody enough? It amazes me what you liberals can say and not think you need to wipe your mouths with toilet paper. You really think the only reason that those soldiers didn't rape mutilate instead of haze humiliate is they were too chicken? How stupid can you be? That's not a rhetorical question, I want to find out if you know. None of this takes away from how serious I think this is. Every single one of those soldiers who went Animal House should do hard time, because that's about the only way to send a message to other testosterone-crazed 20 year olds of both sexes that they better knock it off. In terms of ultimate moral seriousness, I place this about 3 points higher than the antics of Jenna Bush. In terms of PR, it's a complete disaster. Clearly, if we're going to send 20 year olds over there, we need to do a better job of teaching them table manners. Now, one thing that's starting to bother me, looking at the pictures on the web and listening to the false-ringing bullshit from the military, is the possibility that what these kids did is tip of the iceberg. What if these kids (and they are kids) did this because everyone else was doing it, and they just were the dumbest, not the most brutal? I'm not at all convinced right now that this behavior is atypical of how we're treating Iraqi prisoners. And if I don't get convinced of the atypicality pretty soon, I want to see people up the chain of command in serious trouble, including jail time. Starting with Brigadier General Dumbitch Waa Waa or whatever her name is. I must look up funny. Well, don't look up too long, or you'll drown if it rains. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop: I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners. Is that more like Saddam for you Mike? Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If so, I'm not surprised. You know how those West Virginia girls are. Did she use a strap on? Did she whittle it while sitting on her front porch playing the banjo? Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't facing charges. We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison, no crime has been committed in the US, and the US doesn't recognize the World Court. Where do you get this shit? Seriously, I want to know. And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way. The pictures of US soldiers torturing their captives have the added horror of sexual abuse. In five of the 14 images that the Sunday Herald has seen, a female soldier - identified as Lynndie England, a 21-year-old from a West Virginia trailer park - is playing up to the camera while her captives are tortured. In one picture, she's smiling and giving the thumbs-up. Her hand rests on the buttocks of a naked and hooded Iraqi who has been forced to sit on the shoulders of another Iraqi prisoner. Point with alarm! Point with alarm! I'm not horrified. I'm annoyed. Somehow, I think Iraqis accustomed to living under the real horrors of Saddam will put into context the horrors of being sexually harassed by West Virginia trailer trash. In another, she is sprawled laughing over a pyramid of naked Iraqis. A male colleague stands behind her grinning. Later, she's got a cigarette clenched between grinning lips and is pointing at the genitals of a line of naked, hooded Iraqis. A third snap shows her embracing a colleague as a naked Iraqi lies before them. Clearly, Private Lynndie needs sensitivity training. on to each other's backs. One dreadful picture features nothing but the bloated face of an Iraqi who has been beaten to death. His body is wrapped in plastic. Prove it. Seriously. Dead Iraqis (and dead anybodys) look like hell after they die. If the American military is in any widespread way tacitly or otherwise condoning and encouraging such abuses, I'll go maddog on them instead of just on you stupid liberals. The last thing the last defenders of Western civilization need to do is to give free ammunition to you liberal slackers. Other pictures, which the world has not seen, but which are in the hands of the US military, include shots of a dog attacking a prisoner. An accused soldier says dogs are used for intimidation factors. Pictures, not rumours. Please. Thank you. There are also pictures of an apparent male rape. An Iraqi PoW claims that a civilian translator, hired to work in the prison, raped a male juvenile prisoner. He said: They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming ... and the female soldier was taking pictures. Substantiate or retract. If you don't do either, you are on the other side. I'm giving you every chance to ram my words down my throat, like an American solder ramming a toilet plunger up an Iraqi prisoner's ass. If you can prove it, I'll turn right around and hold Bush to account like I hold you anti-Western idiots to account. No, it won't make you right, and it won't make you smart, but at least it will take my attention off you for a while, and isn't that worth something? Mike Lee Easter Bunny ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Jim, declaring victory since it's the only way he ever gets one: It's been fun watching you utilize every corny, cliched Internet argument tactic ever invented in such a short time, Mike. I look forward to more entertainment in the future! Don't worry, Jim, you'll be entertained. Not enlightened, since Christ on the cross couldn't make you think a new thought, but you'll laugh, even if you still don't know why. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Gary Denton is wondering: As a new member can I ask if he is always like this? Is this supposed to be satire? If I've said anything to offend you, let me apologize in advance, because I seldom apologize post facto. Welcome to the group! I hope this question was satire, and you're not going to immediately join the Dreary and Humorless Brigade that seems to think they should be in charge of everything except the Middle East. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Dim Jim, happy in his role as not-so-primary-caretaker of his progeny: Not incompetent at all, Mike. Just don't want to do the job 24/7. Quite happy in my role, thanks. Why wouldn't you want to raise your kids if you could? Why do you think your wife is any happier doing what you consider shitwork than you would be if your positions were reversed? Don't let your rampant personality defects make you a hater, Mike. Don't worry. I won't. When you're around as much smugly self-satisfied liberal stupidity as I've been around lately reading this list, it is a danger, I realize. Think of me more as a pitcher, not an underwear stitcher. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
, do you? Christ. Fear, not understanding, is what is needed right now. The Muslims and their fellow travelers are acting like they're still in charge, and it's going to get all of them killed. Who are the fellow travelers of muslims? And how are they acting as if they are in charge? The North Koreans. Every dreary little dictatorship in Africa. The French, the Belch, the Germans and several other EU countries, and the EU bureaucracy itself. American liberals. You. All the people who think that cultural diversity trumps human rights. All the people who think that appeasement and listening is the way to get terrorists to play nice. Every person who thinks there's any moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinian death cult. This decadent worldview has been firmly in charge for decades now because most intelligent people were too busy doing real work and living real lives to really listen to what the chattering classes have been saying. And, on the surface, what you've been saying has sounded a little ditzy, but not too bad--be tolerant of people who are different than you, help poor people, etc. But the truth is that an entrenched elite has, under cover of all this treacly ditziness, ensconced their fat corrupt butts in university chairs and government positions and Oil for Food programs and turned into a clique of self-congratulatory postmodernist luftmenschen. Their reaction to 9-11 has made real people realize how full of crap they are. And for the sake of the record, neither America, nor the muslims are in charge of the world. Uh, yeah, actually, when you get down to it, America is in charge of the world. When push comes to shove, what America really wants, America gets. And we really want Islam to knock it off. I just have one thing to say here: if this is how things work out, Western Civilisation would already have lost. The Western states might still win this one, based on a lot of factors, not the least of which is untiy, but the Western Civilisation would have been one of the first casualties of the war. No, Western Civilization will not be the first casualty. We wasted Tokyo and nuked Japan and slaughtered most everyone in Dresden, and Western civilization is ticking along just fine. It is not one of the tenets of Western civilization that you don't defend yourself--we sometimes do it without regard to enemy casualties, civilian or not. And that's something the sand Nazis better clue into damn quick. We won't sit down and cry and not be able to get out of bed the rest of our lives if we end up having to kill a whole lot of Muslims. 99% of Iraq is still standing for one reason--we could afford to win the war that way. If we are forced to engage in more theaters than we feel comfortable in, our lethality will increase immediately by orders of magnitude. Again, keep pushing it, you idiots. To take the fact that Fallujah still exists as a sign of American weakness is a terrible miscalculation. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Dan sure has lots of questions: 1) How strong was the emphasis on getting information vs. keeping professional and humane standards? 2) What training did the guards have? 3) What was the role of the private contractor? 4) How much supervision did the guards have? 5) How easy was it to report abuses? 6) How were the guards regularly reminded of the absolute need to continue humane treatment? What happened has nothing to do with lack of training. It has to do with lack of adult supervision. What those guards did was no different than what they were doing a few years go in high school: giving swirlies to the nerds. They did it then because teacher couldn't be watching them every second, and they did this crap now because they thought it was funny and that they would still get away with it. Let's remember how old (young) all those involved are. I'm not excusing them. Every one of the soldiers involved should do hard jail time, and the trials should be expedited. One dumbass prank too many, and look what they've cost America in terms of moral high ground, and for no reason. All our enemies, including the New York Times and Ted Koppel, are already all over this. Let's also remember that this is hazing, not torture. No wood chippers, no blood splashing all over the place. It's not morally equivalent to what Saddam did (as I've heard several media morons saying this morning). You have to admit, though, some of those pictures were pretty funny. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Ritu, laughing out loud: *lol* You have never raised children, have you, Mike? Well, I think I have; my poor child may have a different opinion. But that's neither here nor there, since my comments were not based on my own experience but on my observation of all the lazy, whining, incompetent, neurotic housewives I've observed over the years. Really, you could train a chimp to do a better job than most stay-at-home-moms. It is one of the most tiring job in the world No, it's not. It's really not. If taking care of children 24/7 doesn't tire you out, then you are not raising them properly. Exhaustion is the last refuge of the incompetent mother. Really, get a nanny if you're so damn tired, because you're not very good at being a mom, and obviously you need professional help. Mike Lee Feminist Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mike Lee quotes
David Hobby makes the debatable point: I've often wondered about this idea of winning a debate. Some people seem to actually judge the winner on the basis of snappy lines like the following, regardless of the facts: I KNEW Jack Kennedy, and you're no Jack Kennedy. If it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, ... then it is a duck. (Sorry about the mess I made of the last one!) Maybe we can have a Special Debating Olympics and then you can be a winner too. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Jim, lobbying less than competently for father of the year: Gosh, Mike, how many kids have you raised? 'Cause we all know how darn easy that one is. I frankly can't imagine doing the job my wife does. I far prefer having my real job. I'm so tired of the fawning faux incompetence expressed by so many men when it comes to domestic responsibilities. If you can't imagine raising kids competently, then you shouldn't have had them. Saying things like the above is the sure sign of the sexist jackass who has no real intention of accepting full responsibility for his sperm donees. Now that you do have kids, quit pretending that it's so hard to handle the job, buckle down and learn how to do it right. None of this takes away from my earlier point that most stay-at-home moms are marginally competent at best. Part of the reason they suck so bad at their jobs is that they aren't held to real standards of performance and outcome. And how could we expect them to be held accountable by their husbands? We all know what happens to accountability when a woman is sleeping with the boss So, I may not be able to hold my wife accountable, and you may not be able to hold your wife accountable, but we can at least do a little Throw Momma From the Train service for each other by helping to kill the self-congratulatory female meme that full time moms work harder than anyone else and are doing a great job. Your average receptionist deals with more stress, interruptions and infantile behavior than the average mother of three, and she does it a lot better too. And she's probably easier to talk into bed. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mike Lee quotes
The list's general fascination with my shock and awe approach to rancid liberal hypocrisy, stupidity and self-loathing continues to build momentum: For what's it worth, I have Mike Lee arriving about one month before John Doe. Both seemed to have arrived rather quietly before eventually turning on the heat. And like you, I did note that Mike Lee appeared to be the perfect foil for John Doe.Almost like somebody wanted to see if a right-winger on the List could get banned as easily as a left-winger. And, yes, since you were wondering, it was me on the grassy knoll. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate So do you know who really killed JFK Maru? No, I'm just glad someone did Maru. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Tom Tom the Brin List Mom: Why is anyone even bothering to respond to this guy? It's clear to me he's just trolling, flapping his gums, saying outrageous stuff to try to provoke a response. So why give him the satisfaction of being provoked? You go right ahead and get the rest of those little cowpokes in line, lil pony! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Ronn, pulling this thumb out of his own pie, and saying what a good boy am I!: You've never been married, have you? Ooh, good shot! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mike Lee quotes
Wow, I can't believe it's taken me this long to become a thread subject. Thank you thank you thank you. You really like me! I wouldn't want to offend you after all the care you have taken not to hurt anyone's feelings, but there's a rumor that you are an alter ego of an established list member. A few minutes ago, I started trolling (ahem) through past list messages looking for examples of rhetoric at least as intemperate as mine. After a couple of minutes, I had these recent examples: Those who idintify themselves along that one-dimensional insipidity only advertise that they are idiots. (Brin) This, in response to Americans who think the two party system is A-OK. But shouldn't they all be ideots? The latest, attacking Kerrey's war record, shows just how biliously crazy [the right wing] are. (Brin) Wow, it's been a bad newsday for this quote, hasn't it? Waiting breathlessly for Brin's biliously crazy post about John Kerry. All of which is to say that we are due for an insane season of outright lies and incredible character assasination. These friends of ous (remember that!) on the right are ill, folks. So don't hold it against them that they MUST see all opposition as hateful, evil, filled with lust for utter destruction of every decent human value. (Brin) This, in a post about how awful it is to demonize your political enemies. Of course what a snot nosed kid whose idea of being poor is having to eat raman for diner for a few nights because his allowance ran out early wouldn't understand is that (pensinger) I think he was referring to me. It's hard to tell. Doug's not articulate, but he does try hard and he always wants to sit in the front of the short bus. See, the point was, but is no more, that I was going to go through all the last few weeks of posts and point out the hundreds of cases where the pet posters said things in language at least as intemperate as mine, but they got a pass. But I'm easily bored and a few dead fish in this barrel were enough to make me want to stop plunking and start drinking. (Yes, of course, I was going to exclude everything The Fool says. Without doing that, not only would this be the longest post ever, but it would probably exceed available server storage.) Anyway, the fuckit factor quickly outweighed the funny factor, so contrary to my initial intention, this will not be longest message ever posted to the Brin list. Why the hell should I do your research for you, you lazy liberal layabouts? Here's a helpful hint though: the fastest way to find your own mouth-foaming is to search for posts with the word Bush in them. Or Brin, surprisingly. Am I saying here that you are a cozy little clique that resents the intrusion of newcomers? A little bit, but you're no worse than any high school pep squad suspicious of the new smart kid. Am I saying here that y'all have double standards? Well, kinda, but that's not that big a deal either. You're snotty when you criticize snottiness. You're aggressive when you criticize aggressiveness. Unfortunately, you're not clever when you criticize cleverness. Really, I've never seen a group of people so slow to get a joke. Y'all thud. So what exactly am I saying here? Pissing on hothouse flowers is my hobby. If the tinkling noise on your craniums drives some of you to suicide, that's fine with me as long as I do it before you vote for Kerry. After that, I don't care if you live or die. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Dan M, continuing his streak of stupid, pretentious questions asked me: How many oil rigs have you been on? None. Do you have a point? Or are you trying to sell your latest Girls of the Oil Rig calendar? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
The Fool, repetitiously: You aren't very bright are you. You keep saying that to me. Maybe you're hoping I'll get it through my thick head or something. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Doug, a paragon of logic again: Geeze, Julia, raising kids wouldnt be meaningfull work now, would it? It's not all that meaningful, no. That's why it pays so well, and why most people doing it are incompetent, but don't get fired. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Doug says another thing that his mom should put up on the fridge just to help his self-esteem: As far as winning though, I would think that unless he's convinced anyone that all poor people deserve their fate or that we can solve our problems by nuking them or that women are worthless, or that corporations are inherently honest, or that Bush gets it, I think he's got a ways to go yet. You're right. I do have a ways to go. About 3 more inches. I think if I push a knitting needle about that far behind my eyeball and stir, I might someday soon after that be able to match your effortless eloquence. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Julia, sharing a hoary old feminist conceit: I'd be willing to bet that they statistically match the working women's population--which is something like 62% employed... And the other 38% is working, just not for a paycheck. They don't work very hard. And if they do, it's because they're neurotic or incompetent. Face it--women don't work near as hard as men, in this culture or any other culture. I'm so tired of the whining about how baking bread and eating bonbon's is just as valuable as manning an oil rig. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
The Fool, amusing me today: I'd be willing to bet that they statistically match the working women's population--which is something like 62% employed... Any other group that had a 38% unemployment rate would be considered a social disaster. So what you're saying, is 4 out of 10 women don't even have jobs, which dovetails with my point pretty well, don't you think? Of course, you don't. I'll add the point that the majority of women who do work are overpaid and underemployed because, compared to men, they're lazy, not career-minded, and refuse to do the hard jobs. But of course in Stupid Troll's world working people don't matter. And neither do women, or poor people, or anyone who isn't a rich white English speaker or a corporation. Of course, working people matter. They just don't matter *as much.* Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
David Hobby, dodging and weaving, metaphorically speaking: jobs. Did they VOLUNTARILY choose those jobs? Technically, yes. But they didn't have enough other choices for it to really be a free choice. Metaphorically, I said it was gray. You simplified my position to your choice of black or white in the way that suited you. I don't like partisan arguments that reduce complex issues to simplistic statements, since I find they are not useful. Saying simplistic is the last refuge of a liberal. And you didn't say any of that metaphorical or gray stuff. You made very strong, definite statements to the effect that workers didn't have free choice in taking jobs. I'm the one who brought up the metaphorical stuff, in saying you were literalizing a metaphorical use of coercion. And, if it's metaphorical coercion, then it doesn't merit having a literal law made about it. What I had in mind was that the Government would modify the market to include an appropriate price for maintaining an unsafe workplace. Now, this is an interesting proposal. Let's hear the details. Will this work like pollution credits? A company can pay the government for not installing handrails or providing hard hats? Or maybe you'll just have a corporate income tax surcharge tied to the rate of worker injury claims--a kind of Alternative Mayhem Tax. find a safer solution. Companies should not be allowed to profit by acting in an unethical manner; failure to provide (cost-effective) safety measures is unethical. Why is cost effectiveness part of the ethical equation? If creating a safe product/workplace causes me to price myself out of the market, am I then justified in making an unsafe product? After all, if I can't make a profit, then it's not cost effective. For shame, putting dollars over lives! PLEASE. I know what I meant, I did study Economics. Gosh, how swell for you. My point remains: you say market when you mean everything else but government. You don't want to rely on voluntary processes for solving this problem. Since no coercion is involved in creating this problem, I think it's obvious that voluntary processes should be relied on. If the problem isn't getting solved, then perhaps you care more about it than the workers whose safety you are trying to guarantee. I say let them make their own assessments of risk and reward. No. The employer is not the one engaged in coercion, the system is. Great. Then regulate and fine the system, and leave the employer alone. Some government interventions would be effective ways to increase workplace safety. Some would not. There, I picked. Yes, so you believe that government can effectively increase workplace safety. Guess what? I think it can too. I just don't think it's government's place, and the overall cost of it is likely to outweigh the benefit. One of the non-market costs is people coming to rely more and more on the Mommy State to look out for them. As an example of what happens with this over-reliance, think of all of the weird weight loss, memory enhancement and virility nostrums being marketed on the radio and Internet these days. Most Americans have the mistaken impression that the FDA effectively regulates at least the safety, if not the efficacy of all this snake oil. How many times have you heard some boob say, Well, if it was that dangerous, the government wouldn't let them sell it... I think we'd all be much better off if everyone knew that anyone can sell anything, and you shouldn't trust strangers on the basis that the government is supposed to have vetted them for you. As for market malfunctions I meant when the market does not find the optimal solution for any of a variety of reasons. One example is when the market ignores externalities, so that it solves the wrong problem. First, you don't have knowledge of what is optimal. Second, the market doesn't ignore externalities. Externalities are created because of the framework of property rights that is generated by the legal system in which the market operates. If you want to solve the problem of externalities, you reform property rights. Every externality is an indication that property rights have not been appropriately defined. I saw that you were starting, and warned you. I don't believe you. Neither would anyone else. You were obviously accusing me of already misrepresenting your position. Vivisection does not give accurate results. I'm going to go put that on a bumper sticker, right now. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: a Right-Wing Terrorist Prepares for Mass-Murder
A new word is coined, and just in time too: -- I will not rest till I purge these United States from the treasonist (sic) parasites. In other news, the Treasonist Party candidate nominated Hilary Clinton to be his running mate, after she agreed to put the lotion on its skin. Ms. Clinton's political career has skyrocketed ever since the night she said to her husband, You come near me with that goddamn cigar again and I swear to Christ I will mace you. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
William T Goodall, noticing the obvious: Wouldn't reforming the legal system and property rights be something the government does? Yes. I guess your point is (I shudder to speak for you, but must do so because you didn't speak for yourself, but at least I'll probably speak for you better than you could have yourself) that if government reforms property rights, and it eventually results in better safety for workers, then government has shown itself to be effective in improving worker safety. Ok, on those terms, I'm fine with you winning. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Well, when you appeal to a constituency that doesn't do a lot of meaningful work, you can get a lot of them to show up in the middle of the day for a march. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William T Goodall Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 5:02 PM To: Brin-L Subject: March for Women's Lives That was a big march apparently. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs. -- Robert Firth ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [L3] Re: Scouted: Protecting Creation on Earth Day
Eric, wiff his feewwings hurt: But not all disagreements are worthy of respect. Understood. People disagreeing with you must respect you, but you don't have to respect people you disagree with. Crystal clear. No, Eric, the crystal clear point is that when you get stupid enough, we don't have to pretend you're not stupid anymore, even if it ruins Thanksgiving dinner. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Feel Like I'm Fixing To Die Rag - Revisited
Robert Seeberger asks a fair question, for once: Is this your raison d'être? Any excuse to throw insults? I note that you can't seem to post without doing so. It could be me, it could be the idiots. I despise passive aggression. Actually, I loathe it. There are a lot of very passive aggressive people who post here. You do the math. LOL. Its plagerism if you claim to have written it. If its a parody, it falls under fair use. Sounds like an oxymoron. First of all, it's plagiarism if you can spell it. Otherwise, it's plagerism, which is probably a cult based on the worship of some guy named Plager. Second, if you plagiarize a parody, you're still a parody-plagiarizing piece of penguin poop. (That last sentence was an example of alliteration, in case you want to look it up.) Your Revisited Rag was posted from your email address with no attribution to anyone else. Are we to assume from now on that everything sent from your email address is somebody else's words? Or are you saying that you don't claim to have written anything posted from your email address? I'm confused. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Feel Like I'm Fixing To Die Rag - Revisited
Ronn thinks there isn't a dime's worth of difference: I despise passive aggression. Actually, I loathe it. Um . . . active aggression isn't all that much better . . . Um...yeah, it is, umkay? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
Robert defends the virtue of St. Julia: Wow! Going after the most consistently inoffensive person on this list with an insult. Not just that, But Julia is the heart and soul of this little community. I bet you spend your Tuesday nights repeatedly dialing the American Idol phone lines and voting for the l0053r5. You don't have a BOZO in your job title do you? (An obscure reference you won't get unless you actually do have BOZO in your job title) I've only been here a while, but there's something I've already noticed: There are a hell of a lot people on this list whose skins are as thin as their skulls are thick, specializing in playing He hit me back first! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
David Hobby thinks I've mischaracterized his position: David Hobby thinks that workers are coerced into taking dangerous jobs and that government can make us all safe: Mike-- If you mischaracterize my position, I won't discuss things with you. Basta. I'll address both of my characterizations of you and demonstrate their accuracy. First, I said that you believe workers are coerced into taking jobs. Quoting you: When the market messes up, and people start dying from risks they did not have a chance to freely accept, then Government SHOULD intervene. Do I have to get out the dictionary, or will you freely accept that I characterized you accurately? (I understand you might feel coerced in making this admission, kind of like how somebody feels coerced when his dream job isn't available, but in neither case is there any coercion.) I also said that you think government can make us all safe. Quoting you: Intervening when markets malfunction is an integral part of what Government should do. Now, in this case, the connection between my characterization and your position is not so patently obvious. So I'll connect the logical dots. First, though, let me say that when people of your ideological stripe talk about markets malfunctioning, that's not what you really mean. You mean every institution and association except government. You hubristically plan to interfere in the voluntary relationships and associations people enter into, and to impose your own view of what outcomes should be. To provide moral cover for this arrogance, you literalize metaphorical references to coercion. For example, you pretend that an employer who offers a deal to a freely consenting adult is engaged in coercion by mere virtue of the fact that no better deal is being offered elsewhere. I also thought it was inadvertently revealing that you capitalized the word government. Clearly, you believe that government is *capable* of correcting market malfunctions (whatever the hell those are), or you wouldn't be advocating government intervention in the first place. The particular issue under discussion in this thread has been workplace safety. Therefore, your argument is obviously that government intervention is an effective way to achieve workplace safety. Or are you saying that you don't believe that government intervention is an effective way to achieve workplace safety? You have to pick one or the other. Finally, while I'm still in logical vivisection mode, I feel *compelled* to comment on this: Mike-- If you mischaracterize my position, I won't discuss things with you. Basta. Now, I'll admit that this statement is not inherently incoherent. Perhaps it could be taken as you warning me that, up till now, I have not mischaracterized your position, but you suspect I might start soon, so I better not or you'll give me the silent treatment. But we both know that's not what you meant. You obviously believe that I have already mischaracterized your position. But you still kept discussing things with me anyway, didn't you? Bitcha. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
Andrew, probably not meaning what I think he means: Nicely put Dan. It would seem the most enery efficent too, and the most sensible. From all angles, except perhaps that of the delusional paranoids trying to hang onto power in a changing world. Nice description of the New York Times staff. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Feel Like I'm Fixing To Die Rag - Revisited
Did you write that all by yourself? I bet not. A plagiarized parody of a parody. Yeah, that's about your speed. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Seeberger Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Feel Like I'm Fixing To Die Rag - Revisited Come on all of you big strong men Uncle Sam needs your help again he's got himself in a terrible crack way down yonder in ole Iraq So put down your books and pick up a gun we're gonna have a whole lotta fun And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for don't ask me I don't give a crap, next stop's Bush's Iraq And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die Come on generals, let's move fast your big chance has come at last now you can go out and kill ragheads cos the only good Moslem is the one that's dead and you know that peace can only be won when we've blown 'em all to kingdom come And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for don't ask me I don't give a crap, next stop's Bush's Iraq And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die Come on wall street don't be slow Fox will report it blow by blow there's plenty good money to be made by supplying the army with the tools of its trade let's hope and pray that if they drop the bomb, they drop it on a loudmouth Iman And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for don't ask me I don't give a crap, next stop's Bush's Iraq And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die Come on mothers throughout the land pack your boys off for Uncle Sam come on fathers don't hesitate send your sons off before it's too late and you can be the first ones on your block to have your boy come home in a box And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for don't ask me I don't give a crap, next stop's Bush's Iraq And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die xponent Old Protest Songs Never Die Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
Julia, in snottier-than-thou mode: That's really brilliant -- counter an ad hominem argument with another one. You got it! I was so afraid that would go over everyone's heads. Now, there may be some irony intended in that. I'll assume that ML is calculating enough to have planted the irony intentionally, and give him half a point for it. I'm more generous: you deserve a full point for your facility in belaboring the obvious. -Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
David Hobby thinks that workers are coerced into taking dangerous jobs and that government can make us all safe: That's a great laissez-faire argument, which I might even accept if unemployment were sufficiently low that it was clear that employees had some other options. Are you really going to try to argue that people don't have multiple options about what jobs to take, regardless of the unemployment rate? Just checking, before I spend time with obvious rebuttals. When the market messes up, and people start dying from risks they did not have a chance to freely accept, then Government SHOULD intervene. Do you really feel that helpless, living in the presence of more abundant choices than at any previous time in history? -Mike ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
What about workers who put profit over their own lives? Huh? Your assumption is that employers are adults and employees are stupid children unable or unwilling to look out for their own best interests. There may be cases where hidden hazards cannot be perceived by employees, but these are the exception, not the rule. Employees have a responsibility to refuse to work in conditions they deem too dangerous. When they ignore dangers, then they are putting their own profit over their own lives. -Mike ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Alternate History
Rich, gloomily asked: So you're saying that neither major party in the US is competent? How reassuring... Both parties are incompetent in many respects, but I'll limit discussion here to prosecution of the war with Islam. The American people in general did not consider Islamic terrorism to be a serious issue pre 9/11. It was treated as an annoyance, but not a real threat. If there's any incompetence here, it's on the part of the American voter who cared a lot more about Monica and Enron than the Cole or Beirut or the first try at the WTC. Any attempt by any administration to ratchet up the war to the levels it deserved would have met with huge politcal opposition. It wouldn't just have been risky, but impossible, for Clinton or Bush to really go after these guys before 9/11. There's no question that the Dhimmicrats are incompetent to carry on this war. They just don't get it, any more than they did before 9/11. If they did get it, they would have nominated Leiberman instead of the Massachusetts Munster. Whatever mistakes Bush might make, he gets it. He's not going off in fundamentally the wrong direction. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
only a jerk would argue that it's their personal choice to work in hazardous conditions. Only a liberal idiot would think an ad hominem argument like that answers anything. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Alternate History
Dan Minette: The main criticism was the lack of focus on defense against terrorism in the US. Allow me to bottom line this: all this hindsight 9/11 carping is going nowhere politically. Dick Clark and Jamie Gorelick (what an unfortunate last name) will not show the Dhimmicrats the way to victory. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This time I won't blame Bush
Tom Beck, certain that only capitalists have moral responsibility for everything that happens: The problem is not just OSHA, of course, but companies that put profit over life. What about workers who put profit over their own lives? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: 4thReichKlan LGF
I got all but one right. Too bad you have a tin ear for being able to tell pissed off people from genocidal morons. For a real good time, head over to Indymedia or Democratic Underground or any of several other left-wing advocacy sites and read their discussion boards. The freedom to engage in intemperate rhetoric is one of the really cool things about free speech. And, by the way, it would be impossible for anyone to dehumanize Palestinians more than they have done themselves. Check out the LGF posts on Palestinian Child Abuse. A hundred pictures are worth a million words. My all time sick favorite is the little girl about 9 or 10 years old on her daddy's shoulders. She's flashing a V-sign with 3 sticks of pretend dynamite strapped to her chest. Welcome to Thunderdome. Oh, and yes, I'm top posting. It makes sense in this case. Don't make me punish you for getting pissy about it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of The Fool Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 3:27 PM To: xBrin-L Subject: 4thReichKlan LGF The Escalation of dehumanizing rhetoric in popular wartime Right-Wing propaganda frex littlegreenfootballs: http://www.drmenlo.com/lgfquiz/ Care to test your knowledge of history and ear for dialogue? Each of the following 14 quotes represents either: a) a poster from Littlegreenfootballs.com dehumanizing Palestinians, arabs or Iraqis - OR - b) Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler or some other late German fascist dehumanizing Jews See if you can tell which is which! --- 62% ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Shrub 911 Timeline
The Fool gives us a history lesson: Booker Elementary School, listening to children read. Chief of Staff Andrew Card came over and whispered in Bush's ear, A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack. What did the Commander in Chief do? Nothing. He sat there. He sat for well over 5 minutes, doing nothing while 3,000 people were dying and the attacks were still in progress. This is perhaps the stupidest criticism of Bush I have ever seen. Being president is different from winning a video game. more surprising. Bush is described as smiling and chatting with the children as if he didn't have a care in the world If Bush were the controlled boob you claim he is, wouldn't his handlers have hustled him off? You have no idea what was going on really. You can interpret as you wish. I'll interpret differently. Grace under pressure. No, he's not articulate and really fast on his feet. This isn't a video game, so I'm fine with that. How's it feel, that sinking feeling deep in your stomach, that you're going to get 4 more years of Bush? That all you have left is desperately silly attacks like this? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
This is why you don't recruit police from the place they are policing. They should have done something like have most of the police forces for shia areas be kurdish, the police forces for sunni be shias, and police forces for kurds be sunnis. That's worked out great in LA. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: America the Theocracy
Nick, in hiding under the bed mode: A band of influential preachers is praying for the power to rule America. For those who disagree, they have a solution -- stoning. They're not influential. I know a hell of a lot more about them than anyone else here. I have seen Rousas Rushdoony's withered wattles up close (I was a kid at the time, what is he, 110?) I have seen Gary North's blotchy face explaining how the revolution of rising expectations must come to an end soon and Jesus would return soon after that. Still waiting for both. Christian Reconstructionists are out of touch with zero chance of affecting anything except the digestion of liberals who are addicted to pointing with alarm. And the children of parents who don't have the sense to keep their kids away from Christian Reconstructionists. Anybody who is alarmed by Christian Reconstructionists and is not alarmed by Islam is a pernicious dumbass. Or maybe you just hate America. I know, your hackles go up when somebody says that. But too bad. I'm starting to think my father-in-law saw something I've missed all these years. You do hate America. All evil is within our borders. Outside our borders, racism and genocidal intentions are cultural diversity. Mainstream Islam is stupider, meaner, more racist, more authoritarian, more genocidal than Christian Reconstructionism. Anyone care to debate that? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [ADMIN] Pseudonymous postings from the Netherlands
Ok, we confess. John Doe and Mike Lee are the same person. Well, we're two personalities of the same person. If you ban us from this list, we will sue you under ADA. If you think it's hard listening to us fight, you ought to have to be in the bathroom in the morning with us. You're getting off easy. Every morning, I try to make a reasonable argument, but then it always ends up with me trying to hang that sonofabitch from the shower rod. Just when I think I've strung him up this time, I pass out and wake up with my head half in the toilet. Still, somehow, I always make it to work on time. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Arnett Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 5:51 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Pseudonymous postings from the Netherlands Deborah Harrell wrote: If your supposition is correct, I agree; people are capable of change, and should be allowed to demonstrate that. Certainly. Elsewhere. Subscribing under a pseudonym doesn't demonstrate positive change to me. In a moderated message, John Doe says he's holding off on answering my direct question about his identify, so I'm going to assume that he is the person I suspected. Nick -- Nick Arnett Director, Business Intelligence Services LiveWorld Inc. Phone/fax: (408) 551-0427 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Welcome to life in George W. Bush's America
Andrew, apologizating: Yea, you are right. Sorry.. Must have been something I watched over dinner. One of the most enduring and archetypal of human behaviors is the hollow apology. Perhaps someone here who understands evolutionary psychology can explain the genesis of this phenomenon better than I. Maybe it comes from orangutangs forced to bow to the alpha male who cower and then fling feces at his back as he goes off to mount their woman. In any case, anyone who apologizes and then makes a flip remark, appends the word but to their apology, says, Now there's something I need you to listen to, or frames their apology with, If I did/I said/you took it...is full of shit. The way humans apologize is to say I'm sorry, I was wrong. And then shut up. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: America the Theocracy
From: Fool Let do some numbers. Al Qaida has killed how many people, total? Lets be generous and say 10,000. How many did Saddam kill? Lets be conservative and say 300,000. How many has Vatican killed throughout the years? Lest be conservative and say tens-of-millions. If you're going to hold Christians accountable all through their history, then you have to do the same for Muslims, fool. And if you're going to be sensible, fool, you have to look at what people living today are doing. The notion that the current Pope (while a fool) is anywhere near morally equivalent to Sodamn Insane is asinine. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Changed my whole political views on the middle east in 2 minutes. Russell C. This may provide even more food for thought: http://victorhanson.com/Articles/Private%20Papers/Mirror_of_Fallujah.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Welcome to life in George W. Bush's America
Tom Beck, after sticking his foot in his mouth, sucks hard trying to get his leg in at least up to the shin: Incidentally, by slugging my original post, Welcome to life in George W. Bush's America, I did not mean to imply that Bush himself bears any responsibility for what is happening. My point was, for the past 3+ years, we've been ruled by an administration that has shown next to no concern for corporate malfeasance of any kind and has attempted to eliminate most regulations concerning corporate behavior. There's nothing I can add that won't go over the head of anyone who needs me to add something. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror
Takes one to know one. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of The Fool Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 3:19 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror From: Keith Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:33 PM 01/04/04 -0800, Mike Lee wrote: Note to Keith: saying meme a lot doesn't make you intelligible. Sorry. I didn't realize the term was unfamiliar within this group. Mr. Lee is a Troll. Apparently you have been trolled. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror
Question to Mike: do you really mean intelligible, or did you mean intelligent? I meant intelligible, in a somewhat metaphoric sense. For example, someone might be said to be unintelligibly muttering. Or a schizophrenic might be unintelligibly ranting. I was referring more to the latter sense of the word. like meme, but intelligible? In my experience, people don't go around trying to make themselves sound more intelligible, except for the fine folks I've worked with in radio and video who do voice-overs, where being intelligible is stock in trade. In my experience, people who are trying to sound more intelligent frequently succeed only in being more unintelligible. BTW, according to Encarta, intelligible intelligible [in tllijbl] adj 1. understandable: capable of being understood his ideas were barely intelligible ---this is sorta kinda the thing I was getting at. 2. philosophy understandable by the mind alone: perceptible only by the mind, not the senses [14th century. Via Old French from Latin intelligibilis , from intellegere to perceive (see intelligent).] -intelligibility [in tllij blltee], n -intelligibleness [in tllijblnss], n -intelligibly, adv Microsoft Encarta Reference Library 2003. 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. So, given all the above, I'd say your objections are perfectly intelligible, but somewhat incoherent. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror
I know what a meme is. I meant I couldn't understand what you were saying. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Henson Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 6:12 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: RE: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror At 11:33 PM 01/04/04 -0800, Mike Lee wrote: Note to Keith: saying meme a lot doesn't make you intelligible. Sorry. I didn't realize the term was unfamiliar within this group. A meme is an element of culture, a replicating information pattern affecting behavior. There are many other related definitions that are also ok as long as you get the idea of a spreading idea over. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics I wrote one of the earliest popular articles on memes MEMETICS AND THE MODULAR-MIND in Analog (1987). http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=hkhensonE5ozq9.K8x%40netco m.comoe=UTF-8output=gplain It was reprinted in Whole Earth Review and that version is webbed here: http://www.nancho.net/memes/infoviru.html The entire topic would be academic except that there are two levels of evolution (genes and memes) involved and the memetic level is only loosely coupled to the genetic. Memes which override genetic survival, such as those which induce young Lebanese Shiites to blow themselves into the next world from the front seat of a truck loaded with high explosives, or induce untrained Iranians to volunteer to charge Iraqi machine guns, or the WWII Kamikaze social movement in Japan are all too well known. I have proposed the term memeoid for people whose behavior is so strongly influenced by a replicating information pattern (meme) that their survival becomes inconsequential in their own minds. 18 years later and in view of the rich developments in evolutionary psychology, I now think that the particular class of xenophobic memes that drives tribes (or nations) into wars is *tightly coupled* to genes. War was an adaptive response of genes to overpopulation and periodic privation/starvation during the vast majority of our evolution when we lived as hunter gatherers. For details of my horrified thoughts on this subject you can put xenophobic memes (with quotes) in Google. I am almost the only one using that term. Incidentally, war may be highly non-adaptive for technologies higher than hunter gatherer. For example, warfare in the American Southwest starting about 1250 CE and the response the tribes made (moving into forts) was incompatible with their corn farming technology. This incompatibility caused continuing privation driven war. The result was that most of the population died out in a generation. It is quite a story. http://www.athenapub.com/8prewar.htm Easter Island is another spectacular example of humans switching into war mode. In that case, war and starvation reduced the population to perhaps 1000 people from a peak that might have been up to 20,000. At the much lower population level the environment was able to recover somewhat and with the rise in per capita income (mostly food) warfare switched off. It is unnerving to discover what looks like an airtight evolutionary psychology based argument that humans have conditionally activated psychological traits that (among other things) massively impair rational thinking. This is because genes that turned off rational thinking in some circumstances did better over the long haul. If you can find a flaw in my reasoning on this subject, I would be very interested in hearing about it. Keith Henson (from the above URL) From AD 1150 to 1250, communities became more defensive in location and construction, incidents of violence increased, and the new social system disintegrated. The Late Period (AD 1250 to Spanish Contact) is described by LeBlanc as a time of crisis and catastrophe. Within 50 years the entire population of the Colorado Plateau moved into approximately 100 very large communities constructed in clusters of 2 to 18 pueblos. Many were built with line-of-sight communication in mind. Over time the communities declined in size and most of them were completely abandoned. Finally, the entire Colorado Plateau was reduced to 3 clusters of sites: Acoma, Hopi, and Zuni. At the time of Spanish Contact, Acoma consisted of a single pueblo and Hopi and Zuni both had been reduced to 6 or 7 pueblos each. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Henson Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:13 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror At 03:34 PM 30/03/04 -0800, you wrote: The truth is that sufficient violence ends violence. That is true enough. But that only works when you can seal the outlines of the geographical area and flood the same with your
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Tell me, for entertainment purposes only, what percentage of Muslims worldwide do *you* think got a cheap thrill out of 9-11? What percentage think Osama is a hero? I came across with an indicative poll. Now you put up or shut up. Based on conversations with Muslims and based on the reactions of many Muslims to the terrorist activities by some people who insult Allah by calling themselves Muslim, I expect it to be 1% (yes, less than one percent). Well, that was certainly entertaining. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
This is exactly what a Kerry adminstration will sound like and feel like. Ick. Poo. Barf. We're going to go kill a bunch of people in Fallujah in less than a week. Friends of your friends. Useful idiot. Does it ring a bell? I thought not. Idiots have bad high frequency hearing. Why are you so sure that proof by insult is valid? I never said it was valid. But sometimes it's all that will do. It's about not dignifying it if you want to think about it that way. I gave solid, factually based counter examples, and you reply by calling me an idiot. A useful idiot. Can't wait to hear next week about your trip to the Scientology lecture, where they will also tell you what fine, misunderstood fellows they are too. Do you consider your views correct a priori, simply because they are your views, or is there at least a theoretical possibility that you could be wrong? I actually have been wrong before. I know that will surprise you. It surprised me too. I'm not wrong about this. Mainstream Islam is poison. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: America the Theocracy
I'm getting really fed up with Mike's endless hatemongering against Muslims here. Would this be a good time to ask the list admins to remove him? How Islamic of you. Why don't you issue a fatwa against me while you're at it? Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Umm, so just what was it that turned this lying, murdering pack of muslim assholes into such perfect poll subjects? Right. They were lying about loving Osama just to...well, you fill in a theory. Quote all the statistics basics you like, but I would have thought that we were all aware of the vagaries of polls at the best of times, let alone on a subject such as this. Just what questions were asked, by whom, and of whom? I posted that information. Pew Research did the poll. You can check them out on Google. While you're at it you might want to search for reading comprehension improving. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: America the Theocracy
Still talking to yourself? Oh. I can see how you might be confused. Let me explain: When someone's being a really egregious idiot, I don't take the time to identify them when I quote them. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror
Rules are made to be broken. Intelligently. I top post only when the original message or thread is short or the top posting makes it more readable and obvious. Both were true in this case. But thanks for being officious. Oh, and I top post in one other case. But you've probably already guessed what that is, so I don't need to tell you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William T Goodall Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 5:49 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror On 3 Apr 2004, at 2:26 am, Mike Lee wrote: I know what a meme is. I meant I couldn't understand what you were saying. Nothing wrong with being stupid. Most people are. But top-posting is a no-no on this list. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Virus infection alert !
MyDoom, which is pretty popular right now, tries to read whatever address books it can find on the victim's computer to harvest email addresses. It also crawls through a lot of different files--everything with .txt, .htm and several other extensions, for anything that looks like an email address. (One of the file extensions is searchs is .dbx, so if you use Outlook Express, it will find every passing reference to an email address in any message you still have.) It then picks a harvested address at random to be the lucky From person, and starts sending mail to all the others. MyDoom also includes a nifty little mail server in case it can't use your ISP's mail server. It sends messages with attachments with different extensions, including .ZIP. It tries to fool you into opening the attachments by using names like this: whatever.dochundred spaces.exe So you think it's a .doc or .txt or .zip file, and it's really an executable program. It also does a limited dictionary attack, with a list of several dozen common names, sending a message to each of these names on each domain in its list. So it doesn't just send to email addresses it got from you, it also tries to guess email address names for all the domains it found anywhere on your computer. This is very rude, and means that the big domains are having to send tons of non-delivery reports for all the bogus email coming at them. And if you're the poor From guy, then you start getting all those NDRs delivered to your mailbox too. Along with all the bitch mail from antivirus programs telling you that you sent them a virus. (This is why these programs should quit notifying senders of viruses--forged From is getting to be so common that they just end up panicking or annoying someone innocent.) It also copies itself to your Kazaa share directory, so you start offering it to other unwary Kazaa users as one of several different file names. As for why it ended up being in the body of a message, who knows (or really cares)? There are new strains of the same old viruses released every day, each one more incompetent and buggy than the last. Or some kind of filter munged it up, or something. It could have gotten corrupted or truncated en route in such a way that the MIME blob became interpreted as plain text. Bottom line: if you get a virus via email, it's more likely than not these days that it didn't come from the From: person. You don't even need to inform them just to be safe. Someone else who's less educated (lots of someone else's, most likely) will have already done it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erik Reuter Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 6:08 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Virus infection alert ! On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 06:03:32PM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: But if anyone figures to play games thus, they'd better also figure out how to do some sort of IP spoofing... Or write a virus that gets other people to send the email for you, or find an open relay, or take over someone's insecure computer on a cable modem or DSL network... -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: America the Theocracy
John D. Giorgis is heartened by the reaction of religious leaders in Fallujah: At risk of feeding the troll, I should point out that the muslim leadership of Fallujah have issued fatwas condemning the mutiliation of the corpses. ''Islam does not condone the mutilation of the bodies of the dead,'' the cleric said. Yeah, I bet they're getting pretty scared now with that cordon around them and the ominous quiet I'd expect more half-assed sucking up over the next few days. Too bad the marines won't be buying it. I'm assuming that you just forgot to quote the part where the cleric said that the killings were also wrong. And that he encouraged all his followers to cooperate with the authorities and the Americans in bringing the murderers to justice. You should post that so nobody gets the wrong impression. You know, though, it just occurred to me: maybe you didn't just forget to post the rest of the quote. Maybe you're wagging your tail for the mullahs based only on one of them saying we may be murderers and I'm glad we just got a dozen of you, but we do believe in proper infidel waste disposal. If so, that's pretty grotesque. If you really did go into group hug mode based only on the quotes you posted, that would make me guess that your middle initial stands for Dhimmi. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: 20/20 Hindsight
What if the troubles in Northern Ireland start up again? Will that be part of the War Against Terror? Or the Red Brigade in Italy or ... Last I heard the IRA wasn't interested in Total World Domination. As for the rest of 'em, yeah, I think they better keep a civil tongue in their heads because we're all tired of it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The color of truth (L3) (part 1)
Could you define what you mean by a fundie religion? I know that there are people who are fundamentalists and churches that are fundamentalist, but fundamentalist religion strikes me as a non sequitur. Any religious group/believer that thinks they have revealed truth from God, the Cosmos, the Thetans, and who looks to resolve moral and political questions by recourse to an inspired book or leader who's the current pipeline from the G/C/T axis. Once you buy into this way of running your life, you always end up trying to run everyone else's life the same way. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The color of truth (L3) (part 1)
Incidentally, as for that famous escape of the Saudis. Do you know who made the decision to let them out of the country? It was, well, your hero, Richard Clarke. Hmmm. God knows I don't want to defend Richard Clarke, but from what I've read about this, he was just the waterboy on this one. He was asked to check with the military to see if they had objections, and when they said no, he shrugged and had no objections of his own. True enough though that he should have fought like hell over it. And that Bush and the military should not have done it. And now, a song to start your day (to the tune of...well you already know) Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Saud. A poor mountaineer, barely kept his wimmen cowed, Then one day he was shootin' at some Jew, And up through the ground came a bubblin' crude... Oil that is, black gold, Infidel tea. Well the first thing you know al Saud's are billionaires, Kinfolk said Abd, move away from there Said Key West is the place you ought to be So they loaded up the Lear and they moved to Miami... Beach, that is. Swimmin' pools, nekkid Infidel girls... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Oh, man, I want that on at T-shirt: If you believe crazy shit, you're gonna do crazy shit! ROTFLMAO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William T Goodall Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 4:40 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Winning the War on Terror On 2 Apr 2004, at 12:48 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OTOH what religion does dance in the streets when innocents are killed? Don't forget hanging mutilated corpses on bridges and dancing around the bridge chanting death to Americans... Any civilization that permits this deserves some serious re-arrangement of their belief system. Apologetics to the Muslim culture should seriously ask themselves at what point is this behavior acceptable. What really pisses me off is when the same people who are dancing around a bridge where mutilated corpses are hanging from, they have the ignorance to say well, that just may be against what the Koran teaches. Killing Americans is OK, but mutilating the bodies may be immoral - MAYBE?!?!?! I really don't have the adjective to describe how this makes me feel. Religion is EVIL and must be extirpated :) As long as people believe crazy shit (religion) they will do crazy shit. And we don't want people to do crazy shit do we? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. - Ken Olsen, President of DEC, 1984. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
You're not being consistent. You mentioned the figure of 80% (or 65%) of Muslems *worldwide*, but now you've suddenly switched to Muslems in Muslem countries. However, Muslems can be found all around the globe. Your credibility rating is going downhill rapidly, mate. Assuming you have any credibility left. Good god, mate (and I mean that derisively), where the hell do you think most of the Muslims are? Tell me, for entertainment purposes only, what percentage of Muslims worldwide do *you* think got a cheap thrill out of 9-11? What percentage think Osama is a hero? I came across with an indicative poll. Now you put up or shut up. Pew, the polling organisation questioned 1220 people in Pakistans urban areas Oh great. They asked 1,220 people; not much given that Pakistan has a population of approx. 150 million. I'd make a hell of a lot of reservations before declaring that 65% of a country's population consists of supporters of Osama bin Laden, based on such a small poll. And while you're googling for Muslim majority Osama bad naughty why don't you google for statistics basics. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: 20/20 Hindsight
Mike Lee wrote: ... I think they better keep a civil tongue in their heads because we're all tired of it. Et tu, Mike Et me, Dave. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: America the Theocracy
belief of a movement called Christian Reconstruction, and DeMar is its Tom Paine. Many followers accord him the status of transforming an arcane offshoot of Calvinism into a political dreadnought -- and of launching that theological warship at a speech 20 years ago. I was forced and literally bludgeoned into going to a Christian Reconstructionist school when I was a kid. I took economics classes from Gary North. I was bored into somnescence by Rousas Rushdoony. I even got into a physical fight once with Rousas' kid, who was my History teacher. What a little shit he was. I won the fight. I was 13. This may clue some people in to my visceral hatred of Islam and my intimate and clear understanding of these fundamentalist assholes. The CRs intend to deny Baptists the vote, execute gays, witches, Mormons, Greenpeacers, and Democrats. Who cares? In America, they're going nowhere. In Islam, assholes like this run the place. The goal, one Reconstructionists feel is now within reach, is a transformation of America into a religious state whose mission is to spread the Gospel (as they interpret it). Violence isn't shunned. As Gary North, the current grand man of the movement, wrote, In winning a nation to the Gospel, the sword as well as the pen must be used. Those who don't buy the plan could flee, or face unbending Mosaic justice. Eek! It's a mouse! If you're upset at CRs why the hell aren't you ballistic at the corpse mutilating Muslims? Every Muslim is more intolerant, stupid, bigoted and violent than any CR idiot. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror
Note to Keith: saying meme a lot doesn't make you intelligible. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Henson Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:13 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Meta Level was Winning the War on Terror At 03:34 PM 30/03/04 -0800, you wrote: The truth is that sufficient violence ends violence. That is true enough. But that only works when you can seal the outlines of the geographical area and flood the same with your troops. It also works if you are violent enough to convince the rest of them they need to knock if off or they're next. Remember, we don't want to occupy and control these countries. And the violence we've already visited on them has made a few of them blink (like Qaddafi Duck). I prefer to give them a memory of a mushroom cloud over Medina that will make them remember that they shouldn't fuck with the adults. Quick comment on Mike's postings and related material such as America the Theocracy. This spread of xenophobic memes such as Mike advances is to be expected for both being attacked and widespread belief in a tribe substitute (nation) that the future is bleak. The US's economic situation--converting to a third world income distribution--is such that a huge number of people in the US have seen their incomes fall. If I am right about the way human psychological traits map from the tribal days, this is one of the two things that increase the circulation of xenophobic memes. The other one is being attacked. The evolved purpose of spreading xenophobic memes was to sync a tribe's warriors up to attack. If the build up of xenophobic memes continues long enough, the US will see massive public support for attacks that will kill millions, perhaps hundreds of millions. Hunter gatherer tribes would sometimes kill everyone in an attacking tribe though they usually just killed the males. Will it go that far? It's hard to say, it certainly did in Rwanda. Keith Henson ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Dan, I'm quoting you extensively not to annoy everyone else but out of astonishment: It may be a good time to repeat what I posted about the local Islamic society. They are members, along with the local synagogue and our church and a few other churches, of Faiths Together...an ecumenical organization. One of the things they did was sponsor a community prayer for Peace in the Mid-East back when the violence was just restarting. After 9-11, they asked for a chance to explain Islam and its teachings in relationship to 9-11. They talked about what jihad really was fundamentally. The most important jihad was the war against evil in one's own soul. Only as a last step is war against another a justified part of jihad. Then they discussed the attacks in terms of Koranic teachings. They listed a number of violations of the Koran involved in 9-11. They then stated that this was one occasion where jihad does involve war. They then called for a jihad against those who perverted the teachings of Islam as they did evil. Their call to fight AQ was the strongest of all those at the meeting. Finally, I am reminded of an article put out by the SPLC that recounted a lynching in Duluth, my home town, that was the basis for the line they selling pictures of the hanging on Desolation Row. While this is not of the same magnitude as what happened in Iraq, its the same kind. Murdering someone and then selling postcards of the murder is not something that should be acceptable in a civilized country. The point here is not to make any excuses at all for what happened. It is, indeed, disgusting. It is merely to suggest that one should be slower to compare the inherent level of civilization in two cultures when horrid incidents like these occur. This is exactly what a Kerry adminstration will sound like and feel like. Ick. Poo. Barf. We're going to go kill a bunch of people in Fallujah in less than a week. Friends of your friends. Useful idiot. Does it ring a bell? I thought not. Idiots have bad high frequency hearing. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The color of truth (L3) (part 1)
You and I might be able to sneak something by security, but 5 or 6 Saudi nationals (per plane), some of whom are suspected terrorists? Don't think so. Oh, my, you're not advocating racial profiling, are you? Every time I get on a plane, I'm around people who look suspicious to me. And, by the way, I'm all in favor of racial/country of origin/mideast accent profiling. By the way, can you quote me the Gore speech where he said he would beef up airport security if elected to prevent terrorist attacks? I can remember the heightened security during certain periods of the Clinton administration - such as the millennium. I'll take that as a No. Several attacks were thwarted - especially around the millennium. Attacks are always getting thwarted. Since 9-11, I'll bet the Bushies have racked up more points than all administrations in the last 3 decades. (As, probably, would any administration have done.) But I don't remember a rash of Al Qaeda plots around then. Just a lot of paranoia. Refresh my memory. I was working a lot and not paying attention to the news. Hate to tell you this, but with your fanatical stance on Islam, lots of people are shaking their heads at you. Those mo-fo's have been running around declaring war on us over and over and over again for the last 40 years. I think it's time we accept them at their word. And, really, all you head shaking, nice politically correct Americans who think that the KKK are Neanderthals and shouldn't be allowed to breed, but you give Muslims a pass (I guess because at least they're not Republicans)...what the hell is up with you? Islam is plain nasty. Racist, woman-hating, implacably oppposed to democratic institutions and freedom of thought--Every mainstream Muslim who's following the mainstram faith holds opinons that are far more obnoxious than those of David Duke or the current Grand Dragon. They lie about it when you ask them about it. I know about this. I was raised Mormon. When Mormons talk to non-Mormons, they soft-pedal all kinds of weird, ugly stuff. Every fundie religion does it. Yet you kiss Muslim butt and don't press them on their bullshit while whaling on any bubba who comes near you and tells a racist joke. This is where the rest of us get the idea that you really do hate America. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: 20/20 Hindsight
Um, didn't Germany declare war on the US shortly after Pearl Harbor? And hasn't war been declared on the US every week for years by Saddam and Al Qaeda and every psychotic imam in damn near every mosque in every Arab country? You know, it's funny we don't take them seriously. We act like they're just petulant children throwing a tantrum every time the promise genocide against the Jews and insane violence against the rest of the West. Then the little brat got a couple of airplanes, so now we're going to go spank them all. Not just UBL. All of them. Or, at least all of them who don't take an object lesson from the first few we take out. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Then let me say it again: Every Muslim who's a fan of UBL is an asshole. That's about 80% of them worldwide. Ah! Finally an actual figure rather than that most Muslems are fundamentalists rhetoric. Of course, now that you have given us that 80% figure, we expect you to come up with the scientific research that confirms your claim that some 80% of all Muslems worldwide support Osama bin Laden. Don't worry, you won't have to Cut Paste all that data. A few URLs to relevant websites will do. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. Here's one poll, courtesy of Jihad Watch from the other day. Oh, and it's only 65% (in Muslim countries that are supposed to be our allies) so I guess I exaggerated a little. You go find more. Every time anyone does one of these Arab street polls the numbers are similar. Go do your own research and find one where a majority in an Arab country aren't open fans of terrorists. I just love how Musharraf gets even higher marks. Not quite as high as Saddam's last electoral results, but high enough to tell you who wears the panty hose in Pakistan. March 28, 2004 Tiny minority of extremists update: 65% Pakistanis support Osama A popular man An interesting report on polling in Pakistan, from Mid Day: Nearly two thirds of people in Pakistan hold favourable views of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and 86 per cent approve of President Pervez Musharraf, according to a survey by a major American organisation. Nearly half of those interviewed said suicide bombings against Israelis and, in Iraq, against Americans and other Westerners are justified. The report by the Washington-based Pew Global Attitudes Project survey found that 65 per cent favoured Osama and that pluralities of 47 per cent believed Palestinian suicide attacks on Israelis were justified. Forty-six per cent thought attacks on Westerners in Iraq were justified. The Pew Research Centre is a non-profit and non-governmental organisation, which specialises in opinion surveys. Its reports are widely respected in Washingtons academic circles. Pakistan was one of four Muslim-majority countries in the survey, which also included Turkey, Jordan and Morocco, the governments of all of which have strong ties with the US. Pew, the polling organisation questioned 1220 people in Pakistans urban areas, 1000 nationwide in four Moroccan cities and about 1000 each nationwide in Turkey and Jordan between February 19 and March 3. The survey had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. Pew also conducted polls during the same period in the United States, Britain, France, Germany and Russia. Posted at March 28, 2004 09:04 PM ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Ease the pain but don't stop offshoring
Bethlehem steel is the biggest one I know; they didn't fund their retirement plans properly, they declared bankruptcy and the gov is left holding the bag. I agree that business that work the system this way are despicable. One more reason for workers not to trust a corporation to take care of them. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Bush's brand new enemy is the truth
Huh? Have you ever read how to books on job transitions? He was just following quitting 101 when he did that. You never write nasty stuff in a resignation letter. Especially to the president. You may have your say verbally before you resign, but once you decide to go, you keep it as pleasant as possible. That's not the time to burn bridges. Obviously, after reflection, he decided to burn bridges, but the books state that, even if you think you will do that eventually, you still accentuate the positive in the resignation letter. This isn't about quitting a job because you had a personality conflict with your boss. This is serious business. This is more like quitting Enron over the fraud, and in your resignation letter congratulating Ken Lay on his integrity and business ethics. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
What religion is based on killing unbelievers, subjugating all women, (and a other things). I hope you don't need a hint on these questions skippy. Almost All of them. At least the major ones anyway. Christianity is a pale shadow of its former ferocious self. If Islam wants to survive, it better morph into a similar pussycat. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
OTOH what religion does dance in the streets when innocents are killed? None. The only ones who were dancing belonged to the minority of Muslem fundamentalists; the moderates are as disgusted as you and I are when innocent people are killed. This Islamic Moderate, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny walk into a bar... This meme must die, the idea that UBL is as fringe in Islamic culture as Tim McVeigh is in Christian culture. UBL is revered in Islamic culture like George Washington is in America. There were a lot more than a few nuts dancing in the streets after 9-11. I remember reading an account from an American who happened to be in Egypt, watching the ensuing Mardi Gras from his hotel and staying out of sight for several days to avoid getting lynched. What religion has no moderate voices; or at least none that can be heard over the bloodthirsty masses? Can't think of any religion whose moderate voices can't be heard. If you can't hear them, you're just not listening. If they speak up they put out a death warrant on them. If you leave the religion, chances are good they'll hunt you down and kill you for it. Why do the few moderates who publish on the Internet hide their identities? None that I know of, although Christianity has quite a track record when it comes to killing unbelievers. If you believe that Islam is based on killing unbelievers, then you really ought to read the Koran and talk to moderate Muslems. The all unbelievers must be killed etcetera is only the interpretation of the fundamentalist minority. Right, the moderate mainstream believes in killing unbelievers only if they resist subjugation and/or conversion. And Christianity hasn't done jack in the killing unbelievers area in several centuries. The mainstream of Islam is fundamentalist. It's plain stupid to assert otherwise. Or dangerous. Go to a mosque and start arguing that the Koran shouldn't be taken literally, and that Mohammed was a nice guy, but not really in communication with God. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Do you only hate Muslims, or does your hatred extend to other religions as well? I don't much like most religions period. Muslims are way ahead on my S-list at the moment. Let's say a group of Christian fanatics (to put it in perspective: the kind that would make JDG look like a moderate) would believe that the US Government isn't doing enough to force Christian values on everyone. To show their dissatisfaction, they set off bombs at the White House, the Capitol and a few other places in Washington, killing 2,000 people in the process. Would you then propose nuking the Vatican? If the Vatican was giving speeches every damn day about how cool that was and encouraging people to go do it some more, yes, I would. And that's what's happening in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and every other Islamic hellhole country. Mainstream imams and government tv and billboards and newspapers all egging it on. I must say that your ideas on how to deal with Islamic terrorism scare the hell out of me. What have Muslims done to you that warrants such blind hatred? Some Islamic kid once stole your lunch money when you were in Elementary School? They murdered 3000 Americans a couple years ago. I can hear the echoes of people like you from the 30's: What have Nazis ever done to you that warrants such blind hatred? Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
or the Germans open their yaps, we can blow up a train station and watch them elect Republicans the next day. Or do you see the possibility of a world-wide conflagration increasing? I see the latter - go around bombing enough countries and you'd push the rest of the world into declaring war on you too. So much the worse for them. We're not a superpower. We're a hyperpower. The only people with the balls and technology to really challenge us are in our corner. Or pocket. However you want to look at it. Y'see, a lot of countries in the world suffer from Islamic terrorism but in each of these countries, only a small, lunatic fringe calls for genocide. I'm not calling for genocide. I'm predicting it. If they push hard enough. And I'm saying they're underestimating how much of a push it would take for us to go over the edge. That's the biggest danger. That they still think they can poke the bear and climb a tree fast enough. Actually, what you propose, nuking Medina, is the only way a billion muslims would march behind Osama. And I'd like to say that I find your characterisation of an entire people as 'assholes' offensively ignorant. Then let me say it again: Every Muslim who's a fan of UBL is an asshole. That's about 80% of them worldwide. It's not just the Americans who are terrible when they are pissed off, Mike. That holds true for everyone. You might be able to bully cowards into shouting truce but these cowards do not form a majority in Muslims. Yes, Islam is a brittle, coward-culture. Lots of bluster and lots of bootlicking after you show 'em who's boss. You would merely be pushing the rest of the Muslims towards a rage so deep and visceral that tackling AQ would seem like a child's play in retrospect. So much the worse for them. Japan doesn't hate our guts 40 years after Hiroshima. Germany doesn't either. Conquered people usually get over it pretty quickly, especially when you introduce freedom to them. Being on the losing side of a war tends to make you think about not picking any more fights. Now that I think about it, Haiti should declare war on the US and lose. That's by far the fastest route available to modernization and economic prosperity. Fear, not understanding, is what is needed right now. The Muslims and their fellow travelers are acting like they're still in charge, and it's going to get all of them killed. Who are the fellow travelers of muslims? And how are they acting as if they are in charge? Well, you're one of those fellow travelers, and you are acting like they are in charge. You've just spent all this time painting a doomsday scenario about how they will come back and kick all our asses if we really spank them. Nonsense. Western civilization is going to win this one. The only question is how many people will have to die to make it happen. If the cost gets up to more than a million Americans, I predict that it could easily cost half a billion Muslim lives. I'm basing that guess on the kill ratio recently in Iraq, but there are other factors in play. I don't really think it will take killing more than 50 million Muslims to make the rest get the message, but I could be wrong. I hope it doesn't take killing that many. After all, those poor people have been raised in an abusive, stupid culture and it's a tragedy that they believe the crap they do. Because of nice liberal people and nice Spanish people and nice UN people, the Muslim world thinks they have a lot more rope to play with than they actually do. Every peace marcher gives encouragement and hope to those poor dumb bastards, and makes it more likely we're going to have to make more of them die for their religion. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: RednecKKKlans stalk and assault gay web-poster
It may be that this is an urban legend in the making. Following your link now gets this: A political hate crime Saturday, March 27, 2004 [I have decided to delete this post for now. The story cannot be confirmed, and I have no desire to be disseminating false information. I'm leaving its position here so the discussion about it can continue. I spoke today to Sgt. Connie Locke, the Atlanta Police Department's liaison to the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community. She says she monitors cases like this closely and would -- or should -- have been immediately notified in an assault case like this, and was not. Moreover, she says she personally walked the case down to APD's database center and searched for an assault case like this one and came up empty. There is still the possibility that the case simply hasn't been directed her way yet, or that it is actually being investigated by another authority, such as Fulton County. In the meantime, the alleged victim's friends are hoping to provide some kind of substantiation, but it has not been forthcoming. I'm giving this case another week or so to settle out, since it is still possible that tangled wires have kept it from surfacing. I'm being restrained for now because of this possibility. But I'll post some more thoughts on this later, when the matter is definitively settled. For now, I'll simply apologize to my readers for abrogating my own standards for ascertaining the veracity of material sent to me in the process of getting this story up on the Web.] 4:17 PM -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of The Fool Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 12:10 PM To: xBrin-L Subject: RednecKKKlans stalk and assault gay web-poster http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_03_21_dneiwert_archive.htm l#1080433045 07322450 A political hate crime Saturday, March 27, 2004 Now comes a fairly clear-cut case of a politically inspired assault by right-wingers on a gay man in Atlanta -- in fact, it appears they drove all the way from at least Kansas to commit the crime. The assault -- which included raping the man with a sawed-off broomstick and holding a knife up to his scrotum and threatening to cut it off -- was in apparent retaliation for a LiveJournal post in which the victim, an Atlanta artist, depicted (through the wonders of Photoshop) George W. Bush as a Grand Dragon at a Klan rally. Using information they gathered from the Web, they stalked him and brutalized him into unconsiousness, leaving him for dead in an alley. A fellow named spatula at morons.org pieces together most of the details from the victim's continuing LiveJournal posts: So they stalked him using information they gathered from LiveJournal, attacked him outside an Atlanta restaurant, cut his hand so as to inflict nerve damage (apparently to prevent him creating any more art their found offensive), sexually assaulted him with a sawed-off broom handle and left him naked and bloody in an alley. All this because they were so weak and pathetic that they just couldn't cope with a Photoshopped jpeg image. And they had a gang of them against one small guy, hitting him over the head first so he couldn't fight back. From what he could remember, authorities were able to locate a van that had been stolen from a used car lot in Topeka, Kansas in which [the victim's] blood was found. If Topeka sounds familiar to you, it may be because that's where Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church who bring us GodHatesFags.com are located. It's far too early to say whether Phelps and his clan had anything to do with this assault, but detectives have found [the victim's] name posted on several sites of similar ilk. A few points: -- There's no reason to connect Phelps' gang to this other than the locale. Topeka may have simply been a way station. It's significant, moreover, that the main motivation for this assault appears to be the victim's Photoshop post. That suggests a pro-Bush political motivation -- and Phelps is decidedly not pro-Bush. -- At the same time, the case has the classic appearance of a gay-bashing hate crime: The overkill violence, the stalking, the intentional selection, the clear bias motivation. Even if there proves to be a political motive involved here, that factor should not preclude an anti-gay bias motivation. Unfortunately, that will not make a lot of difference in this case. Georgia is one of 23 states that do not include sexual orientation as a bias category in any hate-crime statute. (Kansas, as it happens, is one of the 27 that do.) This is the kind of case where a federal hate-crimes bill would make a real difference. It clearly involves the interstate commission of a crime, but unfortunately, those kinds of cases are typically only enforced under the bias-crime provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, which
RE: The color of truth (L3) (part 1)
What color is the truth in your world? This color: TRUTH CONSEQUENCES The Bush Administration and September 11 TABLE OF CONTENTS Pre-9/11: White House Received Warnings.2 Pre-9/11: Administration Reduces Counter-Terrorism3 Pre-9/11: Strengthening Saudi Relations Despite Terror Ties..4 After 9/11: Maintaining Strong Saudi Ties, Despite 9/11 Connection..5 After 9/11: Refusing to Protect the Homeland6 Really, Doug, all this Monday morning quarterbacking is going nowhere. Next you'll be complaining because Tom Clancy warned us about crashing a plane into the capitol building. Spin every little thing you can all day long, but everybody knows the truth: nobody took these jackasses as seriously as we wish we had before 9-11. I'm just glad Bush was there instead of Gore when the wake-up call came. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The color of truth (part 3)
Oh, and one more thing The indispensible Mark Steyn, once again giving in to his habit of saying it better than anyone: http://opinion.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/03/28/do 2804.xml ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The color of truth (L3) (part 1)
I've said it before here; I'm convinced that heightened airport security would have thwarted the attacks. Oh, for Christ's sake. I didn't even think you'd come up with something as lame as that. I fly quite a bit. I'll give you this: increased airport security is a complete waste of time by the Bush administration, and it's only being done to make the flying public see the visible face of Homeland Security. Might as well give us all happyface not-a-terrorist stickers on our foreheads for all the good it does. I'm so sick of taking my shoes off and pulling out my laptop. They don't even make me turn on my cell phone and pager anymore like they used to. I travel with a dead laptop battery from watching too much porn in the terminal, since they never make me turn that on either anymore. Since I learned the proper ways to genuflect and walk around in my socks, it's been months since they pulled me out of line. And my bags always have so much suspicious electronics that they should be surrounding me with machine guns. Once I got my attitude right, no problems. Too bad about that poor geezer in the wheelchair crying over there in the corner because they're stripsearching him to make quota. Trust me, if I wanted to blow up a plane, it would get blown up. If I wanted to take one over, it would get taken over. It does a lot more good to tell commercial pilots that if they wander out of where they're supposed to be, and don't answer the phone, they're going to die, than it does to pretend to seach me. Here, you want to prevent terrorism on planes? Put a little card in the seat pocket along with the how to put your oxygen mask on before you help your baby card that says, If this plane is hijacked, you have about 5 minutes to take care of the problem before the Air Force does. Don't be a pussy if you want to live. By the way, can you quote me the Gore speech where he said he would beef up airport security if elected to prevent terrorist attacks? We know that Ashcroft quit flying commercial because of a threat assessment. If it was enough of a threat to keep Ashcroft off the planes, why wasn't it enough to increase security? I love it when people say, We know... The best cable shows about UFOs say We know... a lot. Maybe they kept Ashcroft off because they knew that Americans would hijack the plane just to get the porcine bastard killed. Hell, it would tempt me. I don't love the Bushies. But they get it right on the only issue that matters right now, so screw the gays, screw pornographers, casino owners and people who have been stupid enough to get within shouting distance of a terrorist cell. We'll make it up to you after we deal with Islam. Trust me. You're better off being denied a marriage license than being blown up on the BART. We also know that while under Reno, anti-terrorism was a tier one priority Yeah, too bad she thought it was all going in in Waco and Ruby Ridge. All I can say is what an incompetent Frankenstein-looking junkyard refrigerator if it was her #1 priority and she didn't do a damn thing to help. What exactly did her making it a #1 priority make turn out better, pray tell? while under Ashcroft, it didn't make the top seven. You know, despite my personal distaste for Ashcroft, I'll bet he gets more done with #7 on his task list than Reno did with #1. It doesn't seem to far fetched to me to assume that a field agent throwing up flags about suspected terrorists taking flying lessons and asking about airport security would have been taken more seriously by an administration that had made anti-terrorism a priority. You've never worked for a large corporation, have you? Or if you have, you're one of those people that everyone shakes their heads about. Of course, you don't know about the head shaking, do you? Or you wouldn't be so enamored of Janet Reno's Powerpoint slides with terrorism as #1. Let me leave you with this: Condi Rice versus Janet Reno. Pick your venue. Thunderdome. Celebrity Death Match. One two three four I declare a thumb war. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Oh, whatever. I guess the John Birch Society had to be reincarnated somewhere, and the left this year is a huge petri dish anyway. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
