Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 4:26 PM, Pete Freitag wrote: On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Mike K wrote: Is there any benefit of one flavour of Linux over another? Yes, if you pick an obscure distribution intended for hardcore linux users (for example Gentoo linux) you will have a hard time as a newbie. Pick one that is commonly used such as Redhat Enterprise Linux / CentOS or Ubuntu. I think the most important consideration for a new user is whether the software you want to install is available as a package or needs to be installed from source. If everything you want is a package, you can expect the different applications to integrate together quite easily and you can expect security updates to become available automatically. For us that typically means we install Apache, Tomcat7 and PostgreSQL from packages. This automatically installs dependencies such as Java and the modules to connect Apache to Tomcat. Then we add a configuration to forward requests for .cfm files from Apache to Tomcat and deploy a Railo WAR on Tomcat. From then on, the platform is easily updated from the package manager. We never use the official Railo installer: it may be easier for the initial installation, but being able to install security updates for all installed application with just one command is more important in the long run. Jochem -- Jochem van Dieten http://jochem.vandieten.net/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358710 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
You can customize the location of the WEB-INF directory for each context (site): https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/railo/AEQGOlv4m0I This becomes particularly important when multiple contexts use a single code base (when clustering, some CMS's, etc). Just FYI. Warm Regards, Jordan Michaels On 05/28/2014 11:13 PM, Jaime Metcher wrote: but if you take the path of least resistance (use mod_cfml and make the Apache document root the same as the Tomcat context root) then at the very least you end up with a dirty big WEB-INF folder in your document root. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358711 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Mike K afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Are there any other 'gotchas' moving from windows to linux? I did a presentation on Linux for CF users at cf.Objective() this year, my slides are here: http://slides.com/petefreitag/cf-on-linux#/ Is there any benefit of one flavour of Linux over another? Yes, if you pick an obscure distribution intended for hardcore linux users (for example Gentoo linux) you will have a hard time as a newbie. Pick one that is commonly used such as Redhat Enterprise Linux / CentOS or Ubuntu. I like RHEL/CentOS because they are pretty stable and they don't do bleeding edge, main bug/security fixes, you have to upgrade to the next major release to upgrade major versions of many packages. This has downsides too, for example RHEL/CentOS 6.x will only support Apache 2.2.x if you want Apache 2.4 you have to install it manually or wait for RHEL7. -- Pete Freitag - Adobe Community Professional http://foundeo.com/ - ColdFusion Consulting Products http://hackmycf.com - Is your ColdFusion Server Secure? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubESB87vl5U - FuseGuard your CFML in 10 minutes ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358706 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
I like RHEL/CentOS because they are pretty stable and they don't do bleeding edge, main bug/security fixes, you have to upgrade to the next major release to upgrade major versions of many packages. Yeah what Pete said, I have been on Centos and RedHat for years. It is very stable but the package manager seems to be a few versions behind the latest release of software packages. This is mostly for security and stability reasons, i.e. they err on the side of caution. Which is fine and dandy with me. There are a multitude of hosting CF's out there what will automate a lot of, if not most, admin chores. But the downside of these are of course security concerns. The most infamous of which is Kloxo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloxo#Security_issues So caveat emptor and do your research first. G! *Gerald Anthony Guido* Nullius in verba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba -- Horace Twitter https://twitter.com/CozmoTrouble Facebook https://www.facebook.com/gerald.guido.9 On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Pete Freitag p...@foundeo.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Mike K afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Are there any other 'gotchas' moving from windows to linux? I did a presentation on Linux for CF users at cf.Objective() this year, my slides are here: http://slides.com/petefreitag/cf-on-linux#/ Is there any benefit of one flavour of Linux over another? Yes, if you pick an obscure distribution intended for hardcore linux users (for example Gentoo linux) you will have a hard time as a newbie. Pick one that is commonly used such as Redhat Enterprise Linux / CentOS or Ubuntu. I like RHEL/CentOS because they are pretty stable and they don't do bleeding edge, main bug/security fixes, you have to upgrade to the next major release to upgrade major versions of many packages. This has downsides too, for example RHEL/CentOS 6.x will only support Apache 2.2.x if you want Apache 2.4 you have to install it manually or wait for RHEL7. -- Pete Freitag - Adobe Community Professional http://foundeo.com/ - ColdFusion Consulting Products http://hackmycf.com - Is your ColdFusion Server Secure? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubESB87vl5U - FuseGuard your CFML in 10 minutes ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358708 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
We use CentOS extensively here at CFWT and have many customers using it as well. Very solid. -Original Message- From: Gerald Guido [mailto:gerald.gu...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:29 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ... I like RHEL/CentOS because they are pretty stable and they don't do bleeding edge, main bug/security fixes, you have to upgrade to the next major release to upgrade major versions of many packages. Yeah what Pete said, I have been on Centos and RedHat for years. It is very stable but the package manager seems to be a few versions behind the latest release of software packages. This is mostly for security and stability reasons, i.e. they err on the side of caution. Which is fine and dandy with me. There are a multitude of hosting CF's out there what will automate a lot of, if not most, admin chores. But the downside of these are of course security concerns. The most infamous of which is Kloxo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloxo#Security_issues So caveat emptor and do your research first. G! *Gerald Anthony Guido* Nullius in verba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba -- Horace Twitter https://twitter.com/CozmoTrouble Facebook https://www.facebook.com/gerald.guido.9 On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Pete Freitag p...@foundeo.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Mike K afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Are there any other 'gotchas' moving from windows to linux? I did a presentation on Linux for CF users at cf.Objective() this year, my slides are here: http://slides.com/petefreitag/cf-on-linux#/ Is there any benefit of one flavour of Linux over another? Yes, if you pick an obscure distribution intended for hardcore linux users (for example Gentoo linux) you will have a hard time as a newbie. Pick one that is commonly used such as Redhat Enterprise Linux / CentOS or Ubuntu. I like RHEL/CentOS because they are pretty stable and they don't do bleeding edge, main bug/security fixes, you have to upgrade to the next major release to upgrade major versions of many packages. This has downsides too, for example RHEL/CentOS 6.x will only support Apache 2.2.x if you want Apache 2.4 you have to install it manually or wait for RHEL7. -- Pete Freitag - Adobe Community Professional http://foundeo.com/ - ColdFusion Consulting Products http://hackmycf.com - Is your ColdFusion Server Secure? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubESB87vl5U - FuseGuard your CFML in 10 minutes ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358709 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
Coming in a couple of months late here, but I've just been through a move from Windows/Adobe CF/MS SQL Server to Linux/Railo/MySQL and found a couple of things not previously mentioned. Windows - Linux: already covered above, but I'll just add that anything that turns into a file name (like CFC paths) is also included in the case-sensitivity issue. One issue that hit me was case inconsistency in strings stored in the database that were later used to build path names. AdobeCF - Railo: Even aside from the unsupported tags, syntax compatibility although very good is not 100%. See e.g. http://lagod.id.au/blog/?p=378. A lot of this will come down to coding style - your code might be completely fine. The big thing for me though is the way Apache and Tomcat work together. ACF goes to some lengths to disappear the Tomcat layer and make the whole thing look like a web server that miraculously knows what to do with cfm files. Railo is much more of a classic Tomcat app, in that it is definitely sitting behind the web server with its own separate configuration. I can go into more detail about the consequences of that if you like, but if you take the path of least resistance (use mod_cfml and make the Apache document root the same as the Tomcat context root) then at the very least you end up with a dirty big WEB-INF folder in your document root. MSSQL - MySQL: CRUD queries will almost certainly be fine. Heavy-weight slicing and dicing queries probably won't. There are lots of differences in DDL (I have a very home-brewed set of regexes that did the trick for me - happy to share). Stored procedures will need to be completely rewritten. Many functions are different, but most have direct equivalents. One gotcha is that when MySQL is running on Linux, database object names (e.g. table names) are case sensitive. That sounds like a lot, but it is perfectly feasible to have one codebase that will deploy and run happily in both environments (that might not be a requirement for you, but it does illustrate that the differences are not major). My total changeover time was about six weeks, but I was completely reworking my build and provisioning procedures at the same time. Feel free to ping me on or off list if you want any more detail on any of this. Jaime On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Mike K afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you everybody, I'm glad I asked.I have changed my plan now. Cameron and others made a good point. I was trying to do too many thing at once. My plan now is to get a new hosting environment as similar as possible to my current one, so its gives me the most chance that I'll be able to just copy everything over and most of it will work as is. Then work from there on the transition to Linux or the cloud and Railo in two more steps. Thanks to a suggestion from another member of this list off-list I'm not going with the cloud just yet, I'll go with a VPS at Viviotech and work from there. So far every question I've asked they have said yes we can do that all you do is Once again this group helps me out. In this case, I can see if I had gone with my original plan, it MIGHT have worked out ok, but with my luck the odds were that it would give me a lot of grief before it was all said and done.Thank you all I'll let you know how it all turns out. Cheers Mike Kear On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 2:12 AM, Money Pit websitema...@gmail.com wrote: Having been there/done that myself, I would follow Cameron's described route. You don't want to be debugging so many different issues at once on an OS you aren't intimately familiar with (and maybe not familiar at all). You mentioned you are on Win2003. Have you by chance missed out on running CF on a 64-bit Win OS? That was like manna from heaven when I first switched. Consider a Windows VPS from Viviotech. They can license you a copy of CF Enterprise *very* inexpensively. They are surprisingly robust for the prices charged, they are CF-literate and an excellent firm on general principles. From there consider leasing another Windows VPS and put Railo on it (Viviotech will do this for you for a small setup fee or for free IIRC). Then tinker away, migrate a low-profile site over when you're ready etc. This is what I did with my personal sites. You could take it a step further and after mastering Railo, retire the Windows/Railo VPS, fire up one with linux and start over again on the tinkering so you limit your issues to that part of the change. If you need more horsepower and have the budget for a CF license, look at the blade servers at Cybercon; check out their hardware configs. I don't see how you can beat those prices. My servers there have been absolutely reliable. -- --m@Robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
Thanks for the details. Have you considered dping a blog post detailing the process Russ Michaels www.michaels.me.uk cfmldeveloper.com cflive.net cfsearch.com On 29 May 2014 07:13, Jaime Metcher jmetc...@gmail.com wrote: Coming in a couple of months late here, but I've just been through a move from Windows/Adobe CF/MS SQL Server to Linux/Railo/MySQL and found a couple of things not previously mentioned. Windows - Linux: already covered above, but I'll just add that anything that turns into a file name (like CFC paths) is also included in the case-sensitivity issue. One issue that hit me was case inconsistency in strings stored in the database that were later used to build path names. AdobeCF - Railo: Even aside from the unsupported tags, syntax compatibility although very good is not 100%. See e.g. http://lagod.id.au/blog/?p=378. A lot of this will come down to coding style - your code might be completely fine. The big thing for me though is the way Apache and Tomcat work together. ACF goes to some lengths to disappear the Tomcat layer and make the whole thing look like a web server that miraculously knows what to do with cfm files. Railo is much more of a classic Tomcat app, in that it is definitely sitting behind the web server with its own separate configuration. I can go into more detail about the consequences of that if you like, but if you take the path of least resistance (use mod_cfml and make the Apache document root the same as the Tomcat context root) then at the very least you end up with a dirty big WEB-INF folder in your document root. MSSQL - MySQL: CRUD queries will almost certainly be fine. Heavy-weight slicing and dicing queries probably won't. There are lots of differences in DDL (I have a very home-brewed set of regexes that did the trick for me - happy to share). Stored procedures will need to be completely rewritten. Many functions are different, but most have direct equivalents. One gotcha is that when MySQL is running on Linux, database object names (e.g. table names) are case sensitive. That sounds like a lot, but it is perfectly feasible to have one codebase that will deploy and run happily in both environments (that might not be a requirement for you, but it does illustrate that the differences are not major). My total changeover time was about six weeks, but I was completely reworking my build and provisioning procedures at the same time. Feel free to ping me on or off list if you want any more detail on any of this. Jaime On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Mike K afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you everybody, I'm glad I asked.I have changed my plan now. Cameron and others made a good point. I was trying to do too many thing at once. My plan now is to get a new hosting environment as similar as possible to my current one, so its gives me the most chance that I'll be able to just copy everything over and most of it will work as is. Then work from there on the transition to Linux or the cloud and Railo in two more steps. Thanks to a suggestion from another member of this list off-list I'm not going with the cloud just yet, I'll go with a VPS at Viviotech and work from there. So far every question I've asked they have said yes we can do that all you do is Once again this group helps me out. In this case, I can see if I had gone with my original plan, it MIGHT have worked out ok, but with my luck the odds were that it would give me a lot of grief before it was all said and done.Thank you all I'll let you know how it all turns out. Cheers Mike Kear On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 2:12 AM, Money Pit websitema...@gmail.com wrote: Having been there/done that myself, I would follow Cameron's described route. You don't want to be debugging so many different issues at once on an OS you aren't intimately familiar with (and maybe not familiar at all). You mentioned you are on Win2003. Have you by chance missed out on running CF on a 64-bit Win OS? That was like manna from heaven when I first switched. Consider a Windows VPS from Viviotech. They can license you a copy of CF Enterprise *very* inexpensively. They are surprisingly robust for the prices charged, they are CF-literate and an excellent firm on general principles. From there consider leasing another Windows VPS and put Railo on it (Viviotech will do this for you for a small setup fee or for free IIRC). Then tinker away, migrate a low-profile site over when you're ready etc. This is what I did with my personal sites. You could take it a step further and after mastering Railo, retire the Windows/Railo VPS, fire up one with linux and start over again on the tinkering so you limit your issues to that part of the change. If you need more horsepower and have the budget for a CF license, look at the blade
Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
Yes yes yes, I know its been done and done again here.I'd like to know the opinion of some of you who've been down this road a few times - its quite a while since I've moved hosts.. here's my issue: I need to move to a new hosting company from the one I have my small business sites on. These are the mom-pop businesses that make up quite a bit of my business.Typically they're relatively stable sites with a SQLServer2005 database in a shared hosting environment. My hosting wholesaler has pissed me off once too often and I am going to move that part of my business somewhere else. I am thinking of a virtual server in the cloud, moving to Linux and Railo from Windows2003 Server and ColdFusion. [A] OS move: I'm aware from past experience that I'm going to get some links that fail because Linux is case sensitive in filenames and Windows isnt. I've tried to be disciplined in using filenames because of that but I just know there are going to be some links or cflocations that fail on that account. Are there any other 'gotchas' moving from windows to linux? Is there any benefit of one flavour of Linux over another? [B] Server environment move: How about moving from ColdFusion (currently v9) to Railo?Is it REALLY compatible? Am i really likely to be able to just copy my files to a Railo environment and have most of them work ok? What's been your experience with that move? -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358171 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Mike K wrote: I am thinking of a virtual server in the cloud, moving to Linux and Railo from Windows2003 Server and ColdFusion. We are working on a similar move with a client right now and here's what advise I can give based on the decisions we made. Only change one thing at a time. You're contemplating changing 3 things at a time. If you are going to most hosts, move hosts and stay on Win/CF for now. If the site is important to your business (and it sounds like it is) am a big proponent of only changing one thing at a time. It sounds like your real immediate problem is hosting, I would solve that problem first. If you want to manage the servers yourself, look at Amazon or RackSpace or one of the cloud providers and move to windows VMs running there. Moving to a VM should be relatively straightforward and since this is the most urgent thing, I would do this one first. It should be the quickest, though you may have to deal with things like getting outbound email routed/whitelisted properly. I would bet you are thinking about moving to Linux/Railo since you're about to be responsible for license costs all the sudden that you don't have and are not cheap. Valid reason, but I would wait. Pay the extra money for the short term and move the code over to Linux/Railo later. Moving to Linux/Railo is not a bad move at all, and you can probably do these at the same time. However, you're probably going to want to spend some quality time with the code first. Sometimes it's easy as cake and no modifications are required tot he code at all. Sometimes it's more complex. I'm guessing you'll want to move to something like MySQL or another lower cost DB server as well. Just make sure that you give yourself some time to play with the Linux/Railo setup before you make the final move. Lastly, you might take a quick peek at RightScale for cloud server management / configuration management. It's basically Chef/Puppet scripts you can glue together to automate server deployments across various cloud platforms. The single user version is free last time I checked. http://www.rightscale.com/ -Cameron -- Cameron Childress -- p: 678.637.5072 im: cameroncf facebook http://www.facebook.com/cameroncf | twitterhttp://twitter.com/cameronc | google+ https://profiles.google.com/u/0/117829379451708140985 ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358174 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
Mike, Based on what youve outlined below, and what youre already aware of, I would say the biggest challenge for your migration is going to be in migrating the databases from SQLServer. That one can tricky but there are a number of good tools out there to help you do that. In answer to your other questions: A) 1) The case-sensitivity is the big issue with existing apps. For relative paths in your apps, make sure you take a look at any hard-coded path delimiters as well and change back-slashes to slashes. The other challenges come on the differences in the configuration side of things. 2) Linux distros are a matter of preference, and the debate can rage on forever. That said, CentOS is the winner in my book, hands down, for Coldfusion web application servers and for most dedicated database servers. The distro is active, well maintained, and just about every module or library you would need is actively developed to be compatible with CentOS/RedHat. Ubuntu is a solid server distro as well, but falls a bit short to CentOS, IMHO, as a CF/Railo platform. B) Yes, the move is relatively painless - even more so with Railo 4 than it was with Railo 3. You may have some pain if you have apps that create or manipulate PDFs extensively for reporting or CFChart as you may find some differences in the way they are rendered. The unsupported tags list will help you there as it identifies where there are differences in functionality: https://github.com/getrailo/railo/wiki/CFML-tags-that-are-not-supported You will miss the ability to drop a CF application in to a new webroot and go, but configuring the server.xml file for a new site is relatively painless. You can also install mod_cfml to automate the process: http://www.modcfml.org/ A Control Panel is really helpful for administering multiple clients. VirtualMin is my preference among Linux CPs. HTH, Jon On Mar 28, 2014, at 5:21 AM, Mike K afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Yes yes yes, I know its been done and done again here.I'd like to know the opinion of some of you who've been down this road a few times - its quite a while since I've moved hosts.. here's my issue: I need to move to a new hosting company from the one I have my small business sites on. These are the mom-pop businesses that make up quite a bit of my business.Typically they're relatively stable sites with a SQLServer2005 database in a shared hosting environment. My hosting wholesaler has pissed me off once too often and I am going to move that part of my business somewhere else. I am thinking of a virtual server in the cloud, moving to Linux and Railo from Windows2003 Server and ColdFusion. [A] OS move: I'm aware from past experience that I'm going to get some links that fail because Linux is case sensitive in filenames and Windows isnt. I've tried to be disciplined in using filenames because of that but I just know there are going to be some links or cflocations that fail on that account. Are there any other 'gotchas' moving from windows to linux? Is there any benefit of one flavour of Linux over another? [B] Server environment move: How about moving from ColdFusion (currently v9) to Railo?Is it REALLY compatible? Am i really likely to be able to just copy my files to a Railo environment and have most of them work ok? What's been your experience with that move? -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358175 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
I will also mention, that running on Windows doe snot need to incur any license costs Most VPS hosts will give you Windows Server Web Edition for free, and some can give ANY edition for FREE, because it doesn't cost them anything on your SPLA licensing model. You can also run Railo and CF together on the same server quite happily. On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Cameron Childress camer...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Mike K wrote: I am thinking of a virtual server in the cloud, moving to Linux and Railo from Windows2003 Server and ColdFusion. We are working on a similar move with a client right now and here's what advise I can give based on the decisions we made. Only change one thing at a time. You're contemplating changing 3 things at a time. If you are going to most hosts, move hosts and stay on Win/CF for now. If the site is important to your business (and it sounds like it is) am a big proponent of only changing one thing at a time. It sounds like your real immediate problem is hosting, I would solve that problem first. If you want to manage the servers yourself, look at Amazon or RackSpace or one of the cloud providers and move to windows VMs running there. Moving to a VM should be relatively straightforward and since this is the most urgent thing, I would do this one first. It should be the quickest, though you may have to deal with things like getting outbound email routed/whitelisted properly. I would bet you are thinking about moving to Linux/Railo since you're about to be responsible for license costs all the sudden that you don't have and are not cheap. Valid reason, but I would wait. Pay the extra money for the short term and move the code over to Linux/Railo later. Moving to Linux/Railo is not a bad move at all, and you can probably do these at the same time. However, you're probably going to want to spend some quality time with the code first. Sometimes it's easy as cake and no modifications are required tot he code at all. Sometimes it's more complex. I'm guessing you'll want to move to something like MySQL or another lower cost DB server as well. Just make sure that you give yourself some time to play with the Linux/Railo setup before you make the final move. Lastly, you might take a quick peek at RightScale for cloud server management / configuration management. It's basically Chef/Puppet scripts you can glue together to automate server deployments across various cloud platforms. The single user version is free last time I checked. http://www.rightscale.com/ -Cameron -- Cameron Childress -- p: 678.637.5072 im: cameroncf facebook http://www.facebook.com/cameroncf | twitterhttp://twitter.com/cameronc | google+ https://profiles.google.com/u/0/117829379451708140985 ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358176 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
Having been there/done that myself, I would follow Cameron's described route. You don't want to be debugging so many different issues at once on an OS you aren't intimately familiar with (and maybe not familiar at all). You mentioned you are on Win2003. Have you by chance missed out on running CF on a 64-bit Win OS? That was like manna from heaven when I first switched. Consider a Windows VPS from Viviotech. They can license you a copy of CF Enterprise *very* inexpensively. They are surprisingly robust for the prices charged, they are CF-literate and an excellent firm on general principles. From there consider leasing another Windows VPS and put Railo on it (Viviotech will do this for you for a small setup fee or for free IIRC). Then tinker away, migrate a low-profile site over when you're ready etc. This is what I did with my personal sites. You could take it a step further and after mastering Railo, retire the Windows/Railo VPS, fire up one with linux and start over again on the tinkering so you limit your issues to that part of the change. If you need more horsepower and have the budget for a CF license, look at the blade servers at Cybercon; check out their hardware configs. I don't see how you can beat those prices. My servers there have been absolutely reliable. -- --m@Robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358179 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Moving part of my hosting business - thoughts about my plan please ...
Thank you everybody, I'm glad I asked.I have changed my plan now. Cameron and others made a good point. I was trying to do too many thing at once. My plan now is to get a new hosting environment as similar as possible to my current one, so its gives me the most chance that I'll be able to just copy everything over and most of it will work as is. Then work from there on the transition to Linux or the cloud and Railo in two more steps. Thanks to a suggestion from another member of this list off-list I'm not going with the cloud just yet, I'll go with a VPS at Viviotech and work from there. So far every question I've asked they have said yes we can do that all you do is Once again this group helps me out. In this case, I can see if I had gone with my original plan, it MIGHT have worked out ok, but with my luck the odds were that it would give me a lot of grief before it was all said and done.Thank you all I'll let you know how it all turns out. Cheers Mike Kear On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 2:12 AM, Money Pit websitema...@gmail.com wrote: Having been there/done that myself, I would follow Cameron's described route. You don't want to be debugging so many different issues at once on an OS you aren't intimately familiar with (and maybe not familiar at all). You mentioned you are on Win2003. Have you by chance missed out on running CF on a 64-bit Win OS? That was like manna from heaven when I first switched. Consider a Windows VPS from Viviotech. They can license you a copy of CF Enterprise *very* inexpensively. They are surprisingly robust for the prices charged, they are CF-literate and an excellent firm on general principles. From there consider leasing another Windows VPS and put Railo on it (Viviotech will do this for you for a small setup fee or for free IIRC). Then tinker away, migrate a low-profile site over when you're ready etc. This is what I did with my personal sites. You could take it a step further and after mastering Railo, retire the Windows/Railo VPS, fire up one with linux and start over again on the tinkering so you limit your issues to that part of the change. If you need more horsepower and have the budget for a CF license, look at the blade servers at Cybercon; check out their hardware configs. I don't see how you can beat those prices. My servers there have been absolutely reliable. -- --m@Robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:358215 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
At Hostek.com we are proud to serve and support the CF community. In researching, I believe it was a couple years ago when the previous poster about phone support was with us. Sure, we were not perfect then and still have areas to improve on; hey, we're honest :) Since then we have doubled our support staff, have a 99+% call answer rate and a ticket response time that averages less than 20 MINUTES. Also, the kind words for Vivio are deserving. Brian Anderson ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352410 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
My experience with Viviotech has been nothing short of stellar. I think all told between myself and the people I am still responsible for, I have maybe 8 VPS' running a variety of things over there, including CF. I saved a fortune over my former discrete dedicated servers and paid almost no noticeable performance penalty. They did have one scary outage for a few hours not too long ago, but that was the only one over the last couple of years. In the typical cycle of hosting company growth (with the inevitable accompanying service+quality decay) Viviotech remains in that small-company/high-quality mode. -- --m@Robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352415 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
Viviotech remains in that small-company/high-quality mode. I second that. I've got two VPSes there. They are good people. -Original Message- From: Money Pit [mailto:websitema...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:41 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek? My experience with Viviotech has been nothing short of stellar. I think all told between myself and the people I am still responsible for, I have maybe 8 VPS' running a variety of things over there, including CF. I saved a fortune over my former discrete dedicated servers and paid almost no noticeable performance penalty. They did have one scary outage for a few hours not too long ago, but that was the only one over the last couple of years. In the typical cycle of hosting company growth (with the inevitable accompanying service+quality decay) Viviotech remains in that small-company/high-quality mode. -- --m@Robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352419 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
In the typical cycle of hosting company growth (with the inevitable accompanying service+quality decay) Viviotech remains in that small-company/high-quality mode. 1++. One more thing I would like to add to this is that when they set their machines up they lock them down and add security features. It was a nice surprise to find that my machine had already been patched, the firewall configured and locked down, and a SSH protection server to block brute force attacks. My experience with hosts in that price range is that you get a bare bones/default server install and you are on your own to set it up and lock everything down. G! On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Money Pit websitema...@gmail.com wrote: My experience with Viviotech has been nothing short of stellar. I think all told between myself and the people I am still responsible for, I have maybe 8 VPS' running a variety of things over there, including CF. I saved a fortune over my former discrete dedicated servers and paid almost no noticeable performance penalty. They did have one scary outage for a few hours not too long ago, but that was the only one over the last couple of years. In the typical cycle of hosting company growth (with the inevitable accompanying service+quality decay) Viviotech remains in that small-company/high-quality mode. -- --m@Robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352420 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
Hi Folks I would also put in a big plug for kickassvps, Brian Emerson and his crew. Their tech support is very responsive and outages in the past few years virtually nonexistent. Rob Robert J. Voyle, Psy.D. Director, Clergy Leadership Institute For Coaching and Training in Appreciative Inquiry Author: Restoring Hope: Appreciative Strategies to Resolve Grief and Resentment http://www.appreciativeway.com/ 503-647-2378 or 503-647-2382 ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352425 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
I would avoid... I'm glad they are helping the CF community at tradeshows and conferences but the lack of phone support really is noticeable compared to the fortune 500 that host CF.\Try Rackspace, intermedia.net or HostMySite.com On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 9:35 PM, .jonah jonah@creori.com wrote: Hi All, I have a client who's thinking of using Hostek.com for a fairly large Mura site. I don't know anything about them - any experiences / thoughts / recommendations? (Off list is fine too.) Thanks! .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352382 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
I am biased as hell (no, I don't make a penny from my bias), but I would strongly urge you to have your client go with Vivio instead. You **will not** find a better host in the CFML world. Period. https://www.viviotech.net/ On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jordan Michaels jor...@viviotech.netwrote: The folks at Hostek are good people that I'm proud to call friends of mine. They know their stuff. I'm confident they can take care of you and your client. Warm Regards, Jordan Michaels On 08/30/2012 06:35 PM, .jonah wrote: Hi All, I have a client who's thinking of using Hostek.com for a fairly large Mura site. I don't know anything about them - any experiences / thoughts / recommendations? (Off list is fine too.) Thanks! .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352383 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
You **will not** find a better host in the CFML world. Period. 1++ for what Matt said. Hands down the best hosting company I have ever dealt with and I have had (and worked for a couple) a lot of hosting companies. G! On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote: I am biased as hell (no, I don't make a penny from my bias), but I would strongly urge you to have your client go with Vivio instead. You **will not** find a better host in the CFML world. Period. https://www.viviotech.net/ On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jordan Michaels jor...@viviotech.net wrote: The folks at Hostek are good people that I'm proud to call friends of mine. They know their stuff. I'm confident they can take care of you and your client. Warm Regards, Jordan Michaels On 08/30/2012 06:35 PM, .jonah wrote: Hi All, I have a client who's thinking of using Hostek.com for a fairly large Mura site. I don't know anything about them - any experiences / thoughts / recommendations? (Off list is fine too.) Thanks! .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352384 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
Thanks All. On 8/31/12 1:17 PM, Gerald Guido wrote: You **will not** find a better host in the CFML world. Period. 1++ for what Matt said. Hands down the best hosting company I have ever dealt with and I have had (and worked for a couple) a lot of hosting companies. G! On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote: I am biased as hell (no, I don't make a penny from my bias), but I would strongly urge you to have your client go with Vivio instead. You **will not** find a better host in the CFML world. Period. https://www.viviotech.net/ On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jordan Michaels jor...@viviotech.net wrote: The folks at Hostek are good people that I'm proud to call friends of mine. They know their stuff. I'm confident they can take care of you and your client. Warm Regards, Jordan Michaels On 08/30/2012 06:35 PM, .jonah wrote: Hi All, I have a client who's thinking of using Hostek.com for a fairly large Mura site. I don't know anything about them - any experiences / thoughts / recommendations? (Off list is fine too.) Thanks! .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352385 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
You can find some good host reviews over at forta.com and brownbook.net If your in usa i would recommend edge web hosting If your in uk, give us a try, cfmxhosting.co.uk Regards Russ Michaels On Aug 31, 2012 9:28 PM, .jonah jonah@creori.com wrote: Thanks All. On 8/31/12 1:17 PM, Gerald Guido wrote: You **will not** find a better host in the CFML world. Period. 1++ for what Matt said. Hands down the best hosting company I have ever dealt with and I have had (and worked for a couple) a lot of hosting companies. G! On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote: I am biased as hell (no, I don't make a penny from my bias), but I would strongly urge you to have your client go with Vivio instead. You **will not** find a better host in the CFML world. Period. https://www.viviotech.net/ On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jordan Michaels jor...@viviotech.net wrote: The folks at Hostek are good people that I'm proud to call friends of mine. They know their stuff. I'm confident they can take care of you and your client. Warm Regards, Jordan Michaels On 08/30/2012 06:35 PM, .jonah wrote: Hi All, I have a client who's thinking of using Hostek.com for a fairly large Mura site. I don't know anything about them - any experiences / thoughts / recommendations? (Off list is fine too.) Thanks! .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352386 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
I agree completely about Vivio. Great folks. On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.comwrote: You **will not** find a better host in the CFML world. Period. 1++ for what Matt said. Hands down the best hosting company I have ever dealt with and I have had (and worked for a couple) a lot of hosting companies. G! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352391 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
Hi All, I have a client who's thinking of using Hostek.com for a fairly large Mura site. I don't know anything about them - any experiences / thoughts / recommendations? (Off list is fine too.) Thanks! .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352373 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
The folks at Hostek are good people that I'm proud to call friends of mine. They know their stuff. I'm confident they can take care of you and your client. Warm Regards, Jordan Michaels On 08/30/2012 06:35 PM, .jonah wrote: Hi All, I have a client who's thinking of using Hostek.com for a fairly large Mura site. I don't know anything about them - any experiences / thoughts / recommendations? (Off list is fine too.) Thanks! .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352374 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek?
I have been using them for about 9 months now and not a complaint yet. Three Ravens Consulting Eric Roberts Owner/Developer ow...@threeravensconsulting.com tel: 630-486-5255 fax: 630-310-8531 http://www.threeravensconsulting.com -Original Message- From: Jordan Michaels [mailto:jor...@viviotech.net] Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:41 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Hostek? The folks at Hostek are good people that I'm proud to call friends of mine. They know their stuff. I'm confident they can take care of you and your client. Warm Regards, Jordan Michaels On 08/30/2012 06:35 PM, .jonah wrote: Hi All, I have a client who's thinking of using Hostek.com for a fairly large Mura site. I don't know anything about them - any experiences / thoughts / recommendations? (Off list is fine too.) Thanks! .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:352376 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Comparisons - Your thoughts
I was wondering what the community was doing with comparisons, like in a cfif. I have done it many different ways. List below are just few examples, and yes I know that the Compare() and CompareNoCase() should be used for string comparison and not numbers, but I have seen it done that way in some code that I maintain at work. I'm not saying one way is better than another I just want you to give your opinions. What is your opinion on the way to do it? Numbers 1. cfif this EQ that 2. cfif Compare(this, that) EQ 0 or cfif CompareNoCase(this, that) EQ 0 3. cfif NOT Compare(this, that) or cfif NOT CompareNoCase(this, that) Strings 1. cfif this IS that 2. cfif Compare(this, that) EQ 0 or cfif CompareNoCase(this, that) EQ 0 3. cfif NOT Compare(this, that) or cfif NOT CompareNoCase(this, that) This was just something I was thinking about, that's all. Enjoy and I can't wait for the responses. Chuck ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:324544 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Comparisons - Your thoughts
I prefer cfif iif(this eq that,de(true),de(false)) Seriously though, do what looks best and is easiest to read and maintain. I have seen performance benefits of one way over another, but they are few and far between. Most of my business logic is in cfscript these days and I'm usually kickin it with the ECMA operators like == != etc. ~Brad Original Message Subject: Comparisons - Your thoughts From: Chuck Weidler h...@coldfusionguru.com Date: Wed, July 15, 2009 1:52 pm To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com I was wondering what the community was doing with comparisons, like in a cfif. I have done it many different ways. List below are just few examples, and yes I know that the Compare() and CompareNoCase() should be used for string comparison and not numbers, but I have seen it done that way in some code that I maintain at work. I'm not saying one way is better than another I just want you to give your opinions. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:324550 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Comparisons - Your thoughts
I have long been in the habit of using EQ and NEQ (and now moving to == and !=)
for numbers in all cases, since there is no such thing as 'sort of equivalent',
like there is with strings ('foo IS FOO' etc). For strings I use IS, unless
case is important, and then I use CompareNoCase().
~|
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Re: Comparisons - Your thoughts
According to this Performance tuning for ColdFusion applications post,
you should always use compare() or compareNoCase() instead of the IS NOT
operator, and you should use listFindNoCase() or listFind() instead of
the IS and OR operators.
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/coldfusion/articles/coldfusion_performance_04.html
Thanks,
Eric Cobb
Certified Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer
http://www.cfgears.com
Jason Fisher wrote:
I have long been in the habit of using EQ and NEQ (and now moving to == and
!=) for numbers in all cases, since there is no such thing as 'sort of
equivalent', like there is with strings ('foo IS FOO' etc). For strings I
use IS, unless case is important, and then I use CompareNoCase().
~|
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Re: Comparisons - Your thoughts
I'd be leery of something that says, always.
Sometimes, it's OK to consider the readability/maintainability factor.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Eric Cobb cft...@ecartech.com wrote:
According to this Performance tuning for ColdFusion applications post,
you should always use compare() or compareNoCase() instead of the IS NOT
operator, and you should use listFindNoCase() or listFind() instead of
the IS and OR operators.
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/coldfusion/articles/coldfusion_performance_04.html
Thanks,
Eric Cobb
Certified Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer
http://www.cfgears.com
Jason Fisher wrote:
I have long been in the habit of using EQ and NEQ (and now moving to ==
and !=) for numbers in all cases, since there is no such thing as 'sort of
equivalent', like there is with strings ('foo IS FOO' etc). For strings I
use IS, unless case is important, and then I use CompareNoCase().
~|
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Re: Comparisons - Your thoughts
While I'll agree that the readability/maintainability factor is
important from a developer's viewpoint, that particular article was
specifically focused on performance and was merely pointing out which
functions were technically faster.
If one function is built to be faster than another function, then that's
how it's going to perform, regardless of whether or not it's easy for
the developer to read.
That being said, I'll have to agree with Brad and Charlie on sometimes
coding what's easiest to read and maintain. You do reach a point where
maintainability can play a larger role than squeezing out every tiny
little millisecond of speed (on most apps).
Thanks,
Eric Cobb
Certified Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer
http://www.cfgears.com
Charlie Griefer wrote:
I'd be leery of something that says, always.
Sometimes, it's OK to consider the readability/maintainability factor.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Eric Cobb cft...@ecartech.com wrote:
According to this Performance tuning for ColdFusion applications post,
you should always use compare() or compareNoCase() instead of the IS NOT
operator, and you should use listFindNoCase() or listFind() instead of
the IS and OR operators.
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/coldfusion/articles/coldfusion_performance_04.html
Thanks,
Eric Cobb
Certified Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer
http://www.cfgears.com
Jason Fisher wrote:
I have long been in the habit of using EQ and NEQ (and now moving to ==
and !=) for numbers in all cases, since there is no such thing as 'sort of
equivalent', like there is with strings ('foo IS FOO' etc). For strings I
use IS, unless case is important, and then I use CompareNoCase().
~|
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(ot) Need your thoughts
I have a cf app package which is also bundled with sql server express 2005 at a hosting company for download, a large number of users are able to download and install it. HOWEVER, a few of them most recently reported crashing their systems, even deleting their system files. What do you think of the possibility of super intelligent but EVIL hacking in this madness? By super intelligent, I meant, having two identical packages there (one is BAD and the other good), depending on XYZ to make one of them available for downloading? Or am I nuts? ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:38 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: (ot) Need your thoughts
By super intelligent, I meant, having two identical packages there (one is BAD and the other good), depending on XYZ to make one of them available for downloading? Or am I nuts? Personally, I would go with the latter ;o) Hey, you asked! While my training is science had taught me never to rule out anything (statistics you know) it is highly improbable that anyone would go through the trouble of creating a scenario you just described. But on the other hand it would be a lot of fun pulling off something like that. G! -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com http://www.cfsimple.org/ To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. -- Thomas A. Edison ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:39 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: (ot) Need your thoughts
Thank you for your thought. More info: on scenario one, part of the installation package was removed from the process (not by the installer itself), hmm? By super intelligent, I meant, having two identical packages there (one is BAD and the other good), depending on XYZ to make one of them available for downloading? Or am I nuts? Personally, I would go with the latter ;o) Hey, you asked! While my training is science had taught me never to rule out anything (statistics you know) it is highly improbable that anyone would go through the trouble of creating a scenario you just described. But on the other hand it would be a lot of fun pulling off something like that. G! -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com http://www.cfsimple.org/ To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. -- Thomas A. Edison ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:322231 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
The product will be stored in the database but all the versions of it would be stored on the server in XML with the transactions being recorded in it. The database would be better suited to store the information than an XML file unless you want to transmit that XML info without going to the DB. We have done something similar except that the customer wanted a change log of all changes. We created a change_log table in the DB and used the unique product ID as one of the fields. When a change was made to the product we recorded the date, the revision, and various info like the person who initiated the change, the department who wanted did it...etc and other details of the changes in that table. That way when someone wanted to know what changed in a product we could query against the change_log table to see the history. Dennis Powers UXB Internet - A website design and Hosting Company http://www.uxbinternet.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302988 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
This type of data logging is quite common. One way to do it is before doing the update, get the record again from the db. Compare it to the form data. Another way is to have the form send a duplicate set of form fields named something like orig_productName. Or you could even be fancy with some javascript to make a list of the fields changed when they are changed. For tracking what was changed, you don't really need the XML, you can do it with an additional table. You could have a table with something like changed_ID | changed_table | changed_field | orig_value | new_value. A sample record would be 1234 | 'tbl_product' | 'product_name' | 'my widget' | 'my cool widget' Matt On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Phill B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I need some input on this. I need to keep track of changes made to products in our database. The best thing I have come up with that meets the customers needs is using CF to track the product using XML. The product will be stored in the database but all the versions of it would be stored on the server in XML with the transactions being recorded in it. Here is how I think it should work but it just doesn't feel right yet. A new product is created so an XML file is written to the server with the date and user name attached. When a potential change is made, the current product will be compared to the most current XML to see if anything really was changed. If a change is detected, a new XML file is written to the server with the date and user name attached to the change. Does this sound solid enough to use or is there a better way? All input is appreciated. It would be great if I could find an easy way to integrate Subversion, CF and SQL2K for this but that's just crazy talk. :-) Thanks -- Phil ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302855 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
I need some input on this. I need to keep track of changes made to products in our database. The best thing I have come up with that meets the customers needs is using CF to track the product using XML. The product will be stored in the database but all the versions of it would be stored on the server in XML with the transactions being recorded in it. Here is how I think it should work but it just doesn't feel right yet. A new product is created so an XML file is written to the server with the date and user name attached. When a potential change is made, the current product will be compared to the most current XML to see if anything really was changed. If a change is detected, a new XML file is written to the server with the date and user name attached to the change. Does this sound solid enough to use or is there a better way? All input is appreciated. It would be great if I could find an easy way to integrate Subversion, CF and SQL2K for this but that's just crazy talk. :-) Thanks -- Phil ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302851 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
Hi, Phil... I'm not experience with XML, just vaguely familiar with it, but I'm curious as to why you're using XML as part of your process and not just interacting with a database only. Rick -Original Message- From: Phill B [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:40 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this? I need some input on this. I need to keep track of changes made to products in our database. The best thing I have come up with that meets the customers needs is using CF to track the product using XML. The product will be stored in the database but all the versions of it would be stored on the server in XML with the transactions being recorded in it. Here is how I think it should work but it just doesn't feel right yet. A new product is created so an XML file is written to the server with the date and user name attached. When a potential change is made, the current product will be compared to the most current XML to see if anything really was changed. If a change is detected, a new XML file is written to the server with the date and user name attached to the change. Does this sound solid enough to use or is there a better way? All input is appreciated. It would be great if I could find an easy way to integrate Subversion, CF and SQL2K for this but that's just crazy talk. :-) Thanks -- Phil ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302859 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
The customer would like to have versions of the product that he could print out. I'm not sure I see an easy way of doing this with the data stored like this. Then again its Monday morning and I'm not firing on all cylinders yet. :-\ On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Matt Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This type of data logging is quite common. One way to do it is before doing the update, get the record again from the db. Compare it to the form data. Another way is to have the form send a duplicate set of form fields named something like orig_productName. Or you could even be fancy with some javascript to make a list of the fields changed when they are changed. For tracking what was changed, you don't really need the XML, you can do it with an additional table. You could have a table with something like changed_ID | changed_table | changed_field | orig_value | new_value. A sample record would be 1234 | 'tbl_product' | 'product_name' | 'my widget' | 'my cool widget' Matt On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Phill B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I need some input on this. I need to keep track of changes made to products in our database. The best thing I have come up with that meets the customers needs is using CF to track the product using XML. The product will be stored in the database but all the versions of it would be stored on the server in XML with the transactions being recorded in it. Here is how I think it should work but it just doesn't feel right yet. A new product is created so an XML file is written to the server with the date and user name attached. When a potential change is made, the current product will be compared to the most current XML to see if anything really was changed. If a change is detected, a new XML file is written to the server with the date and user name attached to the change. Does this sound solid enough to use or is there a better way? All input is appreciated. It would be great if I could find an easy way to integrate Subversion, CF and SQL2K for this but that's just crazy talk. :-) Thanks -- Phil ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302860 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Phill B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The customer would like to have versions of the product that he could print out. I'm not sure I see an easy way of doing this with the data stored like this. Then again its Monday morning and I'm not firing on all cylinders yet. If you require more extensive data tracking, then consider a duplicate table named something like product_archive. It would have all the same fields, plus its own primary key (product_id would be FK back to original product table), and maybe a time stamp. -- Matt Williams It's the question that drives us. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302866 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
The product will be stored in the database but all the versions of it would be stored on the server in XML with the transactions being recorded in it. Why not store that in the database? That's what databases are for. XML is better for transport between systems, databases are better for storage. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302867 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
Hey Rick The thought is that we could have an easy to access snap shot of the product that would include a reference to the last edit. Here is my idea behind the XML. Lets say I have the following XML (I hope it comes thru) product nameCool Product/name cost321/cost /product If Jerry adds the length to the product, it would be record as follows in a new XML file. product nameCool Product/name cost321/cost length transType=Added date=4/5/08 user=Jerry52'/length /product With this process I can have links to each of the version of the document. Just click a link and the XML is rendered to the page with all the changes noted. I don't know if this a good idea so thats why I'm asking the group. :-) Phil On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Phil... I'm not experience with XML, just vaguely familiar with it, but I'm curious as to why you're using XML as part of your process and not just interacting with a database only. Rick ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302869 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
Very true. The problem I'm having is that I cant figure out how to do this in a database. I've never worked with a database driven application that stores revisions that I can dig through the code to see how they do it. Plus, I couldn't find any good articles or books on this sort of thing. That's why I'm asking for help. I know there has to be a better way. I just don't have the experience to pull from to figure out what it is. On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Dave Watts wrote: The product will be stored in the database but all the versions of it would be stored on the server in XML with the transactions being recorded in it. Why not store that in the database? That's what databases are for. XML is better for transport between systems, databases are better for storage. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302871 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
]'')' select @sql = @sql +',''' + @UpdateDate + select @sql = @sql +',''' + @UserName + select @sql = @sql +' from #ins i full outer join #del d' select @sql = @sql +@PKCols select @sql = @sql +' where i.' + @fieldname + ' d.' + @fieldname select @sql = @sql +' or (i.' + @fieldname + ' is null and d.' + @fieldname + ' is not null)' select @sql = @sql +' or (i.' + @fieldname + ' is not null and d.' + @fieldname + ' is null)' exec (@sql) --PRINT @sql end end END go === Regards Richard -Original Message- From: Phill B [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 April 2008 17:30 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this? Very true. The problem I'm having is that I cant figure out how to do this in a database. I've never worked with a database driven application that stores revisions that I can dig through the code to see how they do it. Plus, I couldn't find any good articles or books on this sort of thing. That's why I'm asking for help. I know there has to be a better way. I just don't have the experience to pull from to figure out what it is. On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Dave Watts wrote: The product will be stored in the database but all the versions of it would be stored on the server in XML with the transactions being recorded in it. Why not store that in the database? That's what databases are for. XML is better for transport between systems, databases are better for storage. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302891 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
-Original Message- From: Matt Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this? This type of data logging is quite common. One way to do it is before doing the update, get the record again from the db. Compare it to the form data. Another way is to have the form send a duplicate set of form fields named something like orig_productName. Or you could even be fancy with some javascript to make a list of the fields changed when they are changed. For tracking what was changed, you don't really need the XML, you can do it with an additional table. You could have a table with something like changed_ID | changed_table | changed_field | orig_value | new_value. A sample record would be 1234 | 'tbl_product' | 'product_name' | 'my widget' | 'my cool widget' I've done this before using the same table. Basically I added two new columns: EditDate (the date of the change) and EditUser (the user ID of the one making the change). When somebody updates something you save a new row with the updated data - then select it using a MAX date. Deletes can be handled in two ways: 1) You can just plain delete things. Done and done - but you lose the audit trail. 2) You can add another column, a boolean - something like Active or Deleted. Only active records should be shown - the rest would be considered deleted. The main issue with this is that it's a waste of space - even a small change will result in a duplicate of all information. This is fine for small databases (storage is cheap) and it does make things easier. Going back to an older version is as easy as copying a row and setting a date. Matt's system above is much better on storage although it has a shadow of the same problem. The most commonly edited fields tend to be the larger ones (descriptions for example) and these will be double stored as well - in fact for them (since you're saving a before and after instance for each field) the total space usage might end being the same as my version depending on the data you're talking about. Really the only way to truly optimize storage would be to implement a base difference system like they do in high-end source control. This would be complicated, require more processing and would be generally icky (that's a technical term). This seems like enormous overkill unless your database is so large that storage costs are an issue. One major advantage to Matt's, however, is that it can be bolted on to an existing system more easily - although the process for storing and recovering edits is more complex no changes are needed to the core system. In my case everything that accesses the tables will need to understand to grab only the latest version. There are probably dozens of variations here - the size of your data, the frequency of updates, the traffic, etc - that's going to determine what you want to do. Jim Davis ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302895 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can you guys give me your thoughts on this?
I do something similar, but I have date_added and date_removed columns (each with a corresponding user column), so I know that if date_removed IS NULL then I have the latest version of the record. It provides full auditing in that we know when a record was added, when it was removed and by whom. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 2:38 AM, Jim Davis wrote: I've done this before using the same table. Basically I added two new columns: EditDate (the date of the change) and EditUser (the user ID of the one making the change). -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:302919 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Your thoughts even opinion would be appreciated
What's your opinion in terms of value to an organization and its members, which of the following would produce more for similar cost? http://24.254.1.94:8000/technology4business/generation2.htm http://24.254.1.94:8000/technology4business/generation3.cfm Thanks. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:301771 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
Watch out for that though. I remember someone on this list who used to use the extends= attribute in their cfcomponent tags. That worked great until CF8 when Adobe actually implemented that attribute and all their code broke. :) ~Brad -Original Message- From: s. isaac dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts... When CF6 was introduced they allowed you to add whatever arbitrary attributes you want to cfcomponent, cffunction, cfargument and cfproperty tags so you could use that metadata via getMetaData() ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300070 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
Watch out for that though. I remember someone on this list who used to use the extends= attribute in their cfcomponent tags. That worked great until CF8 when Adobe actually implemented that attribute and all their code broke. :) You mean with an empty value? -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300073 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
They didn't use an empty value. They put in cfc names and/or notes as to what other component that component extended. Of course, the values they had been putting in there were not valid for CF8. The empty quotes were the lines your imagination was supposed to go between. ~Brad -Original Message- From: s. isaac dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:24 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts... Watch out for that though. I remember someone on this list who used to use the extends= attribute in their cfcomponent tags. That worked great until CF8 when Adobe actually implemented that attribute and all their code broke. :) You mean with an empty value? ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300074 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
You mean 'extends=' didn't actually extend a CFC? Wow, then my code was working through magic and incantation all that time! Hot Damn, call the Enquirer! ;) Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Brad Wood wrote: They didn't use an empty value. They put in cfc names and/or notes as to what other component that component extended. Of course, the values they had been putting in there were not valid for CF8. The empty quotes were the lines your imagination was supposed to go between. ~Brad ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300078 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
Lol. You got me. I meant implements=, not extends=. That was the one CF8 introduced. :) ~Brad -Original Message- From: Cutter (CFRelated) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts... You mean 'extends=' didn't actually extend a CFC? Wow, then my code was working through magic and incantation all that time! Hot Damn, call the Enquirer! ;) Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300086 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
Jim Davis said: I know it won't validate, but can't you do that now? I would expect CF to ignore any unknown attributes. Way back when, CF5 and prior, it would throw errors on attributes it didn't recognize. When CF6 was introduced they allowed you to add whatever arbitrary attributes you want to cfcomponent, cffunction, cfargument and cfproperty tags so you could use that metadata via getMetaData() -- with other tags I'm not sure, haven't tried it. But it's likely that the server might already ignore unrecognized attributes on tags by default. So yeah, you could possibly get away with it, although I tend to agree with Dave Watts' comments regarding its usefulness. As do I, personally. But I'm also of two minds on the issue: While I wouldn't use such a feature (for all the reasons already stated) some people clearly might. In the end consistency and workability is more important to me. If this guy finds this useful and, most importantly, is consistent with his usage then great. Anything that lets us remember what the hell we were thinking a year later can't be all bad. ;^) Of course there are other considerations. I think the most important one is are you inflicting this system on others? If so, and they DON'T understand then your consistency means nothing - you must be consistent within your workgroup for anything like this to truly work. I've actually gone further and created my own comment tag and parsing engine for CFC development... probably worse that this to many people but it works wonders for me and allows me to self-document my code pretty darn well. In any case any documentation, whether it's via strict comments, code markup, naming conventions, etc is definately more good than bad. But it only works really when everybody involved works together. Jim Davis ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300103 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
I've actually gone further and created my own comment tag and parsing engine for CFC development... probably worse that this to many people but it works wonders for me and allows me to self-document my code pretty darn well. Not all that far-out for those of us who've worked with Fusedocs for example. There's a similar XML dialect called SPEC that I created used for documenting functions and such in the onTap framework, though the dialect itself was designed with the intention of being independent of the language or framework, so you could use SPEC to document Java (or create SPEC docs from JavaDocs) if you wanted. I use it in the framework as a skeleton for displaying language reference in HTML format. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300111 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
Lol. You got me. I meant implements=, not extends=. That was the one CF8 introduced. :) Oh interfaces... that makes more sense. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300112 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
-Original Message- From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:13 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts... Watch out for that though. I remember someone on this list who used to use the extends= attribute in their cfcomponent tags. That worked great until CF8 when Adobe actually implemented that attribute and all their code broke. :) Yeah... you really can't use any common words. Since my imprint in the DepressedPress I prefix everything with DP_... something like that should keep it off any reserved word lists. ;^) Jim Davis ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300140 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
As I was doing my stuff today I had an interesting idea and wondered what others thought. In a nutshell it would be cool to be able to have a HINT attribute for every CFML tag for VERY SHORT comments. I know this mixes comments within logic but it would be great for certain things. For example: CFPARAM NAME=myVar DEFAULT=233 HINT=myHint I have an extensive db value key table with all sorts of combinations and use its numeric key to represent its value. So, in the above, 233 would equal some value and the HINT would help the programmer to remember what the key was. Yes, you could just as easily do !--- myHint --- but the above idea is much cleaner. You could use HINT for all sorts of brief notes... Thoughts? ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300023 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
I would be inclined to simply use a regular comment. I might see value in your suggestion if you wanted to have some auto-documenting process for your code. Kind of like Java's Annotations. Even in that case, annotations feel more like structured comments that are parsed. Generally auto-documenting applies at your class and method level-- not at each individual line of code. Interesting thought though... ~Brad -Original Message- From: John Skrotzki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 3:13 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts... CFPARAM NAME=myVar DEFAULT=233 HINT=myHint ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300024 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
CFPARAM NAME=myVar DEFAULT=233 HINT=myHint What would be the advanteage over simply using CFPARAM NAME=myVar DEFAULT=233 !--- myHint --- ? -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300025 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
I disagree that hints are cleaner than comments. Comments are set apart from the logic, display, whatever. They are semantically easy to parse as ignorable by the system, remove systematically, etc. They don't clutter the tags. They're available both in the tag-based language and script-based language. They're a standard feature, in some way or another, of *every* language. Replacing them is, in my opinion, silly, and your suggestion seems like an unnecessary augmentation that would add neither a fundamental improvement in performance, a new ability, or enhanced ease-of-use. Sorry to be so negative, but I just don't see it. --Ben Doom John Skrotzki wrote: As I was doing my stuff today I had an interesting idea and wondered what others thought. In a nutshell it would be cool to be able to have a HINT attribute for every CFML tag for VERY SHORT comments. I know this mixes comments within logic but it would be great for certain things. For example: CFPARAM NAME=myVar DEFAULT=233 HINT=myHint I have an extensive db value key table with all sorts of combinations and use its numeric key to represent its value. So, in the above, 233 would equal some value and the HINT would help the programmer to remember what the key was. Yes, you could just as easily do !--- myHint --- but the above idea is much cleaner. You could use HINT for all sorts of brief notes... Thoughts? ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300026 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
-Original Message- From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts... I would be inclined to simply use a regular comment. I might see value in your suggestion if you wanted to have some auto-documenting process for your code. Kind of like Java's Annotations. Even in that case, annotations feel more like structured comments that are parsed. Generally auto-documenting applies at your class and method level-- not at each individual line of code. I know it won't validate, but can't you do that now? I would expect CF to ignore any unknown attributes. Jim Davis ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300029 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
On another note, some people programmatically remove comments and whitespace during an ANT build/deployment. A hint attribute, for comments, might make such a process much more difficult. Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Ben Doom wrote: I disagree that hints are cleaner than comments. Comments are set apart from the logic, display, whatever. They are semantically easy to parse as ignorable by the system, remove systematically, etc. They don't clutter the tags. They're available both in the tag-based language and script-based language. They're a standard feature, in some way or another, of *every* language. Replacing them is, in my opinion, silly, and your suggestion seems like an unnecessary augmentation that would add neither a fundamental improvement in performance, a new ability, or enhanced ease-of-use. Sorry to be so negative, but I just don't see it. --Ben Doom ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300034 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
As I was doing my stuff today I had an interesting idea and wondered what others thought. In a nutshell it would be cool to be able to have a HINT attribute for every CFML tag for VERY SHORT comments. I know this mixes comments within logic but it would be great for certain things. For example: CFPARAM NAME=myVar DEFAULT=233 HINT=myHint I have an extensive db value key table with all sorts of combinations and use its numeric key to represent its value. So, in the above, 233 would equal some value and the HINT would help the programmer to remember what the key was. Yes, you could just as easily do !--- myHint --- but the above idea is much cleaner. You could use HINT for all sorts of brief notes... Thoughts? The HINT attribute is useful for CFCs because you can see the values in the self-generated documentation. Beyond that, though, I don't see the utility of doing this instead of adding a comment. My problem with comments in general is that I often see them used to describe things that are self-describing, but not used when something needs to actually be described in detail. I think a HINT attribute would incline people toward that style of commenting, which is useless, although it wouldn't really be the fault of the attribute itself. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300036 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My problem with comments in general is that I often see them used to describe things that are self-describing, I tend to agree with Dave. IMO comments should tell ppl the what and why you are doing something. I have been a long time advocate of self documenting code. Even if it is as simple as including the data type on database column or variable names UserID strUserName curTotalCost bitIsActive lkpTblStatesID (lkp being my shorthand for a lookup). OR for naming data structures StructUsersAddress listCategoryIds qrytblUsers Or for table names and PK's for a Lookup table lkpTblStates lkpTblStatesID Or function names: GetUserRightsStruct() GetIDListofHippiesWhoHateWater() I have gotten flak about this before because it can get rather verbose. But I can walk into code I wrote years ago and know what is what on sight. -- I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult. - E. B. White ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300038 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Interesting idea for next CF - thoughts...
Jim Davis said: I know it won't validate, but can't you do that now? I would expect CF to ignore any unknown attributes. Way back when, CF5 and prior, it would throw errors on attributes it didn't recognize. When CF6 was introduced they allowed you to add whatever arbitrary attributes you want to cfcomponent, cffunction, cfargument and cfproperty tags so you could use that metadata via getMetaData() -- with other tags I'm not sure, haven't tried it. But it's likely that the server might already ignore unrecognized attributes on tags by default. So yeah, you could possibly get away with it, although I tend to agree with Dave Watts' comments regarding its usefulness. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:300047 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Thoughts on my version of a DAO
Waiting for the big guy :OD -Original Message- From: s. isaac dealey Sent: 25 December 2007 21:39 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Thoughts on my version of a DAO Don't ask why I'm up at 5 in the morning on Xmas day! I won't. :) -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295369 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Thoughts on my version of a DAO
Waiting for the big guy :OD Oh I hate it when the ghost of Dom Delouise tries to shove himself through my chimney. Wasn't so bad before when it was John Belushi... but it's gonna get worse, 'cause now I think Povarotti's taking over. :P -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295376 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Thoughts on my version of a DAO
Don't ask why I'm up at 5 in the morning on Xmas day! I won't. :) -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295341 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Thoughts on my version of a DAO
Merry Christmas all. Don't ask why I'm up at 5 in the morning on Xmas day! I've written my own version of a DAO and have been using this for my latest project and have found it to be very nice to use albeit not perfect. I would love peoples' criticisms and comments. http://www.adrianlynch.co.uk/post.cfm?postID=21 Thanks. Adrian Lynch ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295332 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function
We are talking about phpBB not Windows and/or PHP in general. If you want to have a conversation with the grownups, stick with the topic and make your comments BEFORE you get all giddy from watching a video of the walking Grand Canyon and her ex-has-been. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 1:41 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function well damn I never thought php would be just like windows... ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Bobby Hartsfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:40 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function Wal-Mart is one of the most widely shopped at stores on the planet but that's just because there are so many of them out there ;-) PHPBB may get hacked occasionally but it's because its widely used and well known... not to mention, anyone can see the source. Usually, the hacks happen because people don't update or pay attention to notifications of vulnerabilities. I don't recall any of those notifications or updates fixing and security risks in the encryption it uses though. :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:233459 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function
That's not completely true. I've done full scale phpBB integration and for the most part it's mainly insecure because of feature creep. They started off with a good idea, but have put a lot of people at risk with the type of framework they put in place. !k -Original Message- From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 7:38 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function Wal-Mart is one of the most widely shopped at stores on the planet but that's just because there are so many of them out there ;-) PHPBB may get hacked occasionally but it's because its widely used and well known... not to mention, anyone can see the source. Usually, the hacks happen because people don't update or pay attention to notifications of vulnerabilities. I don't recall any of those notifications or updates fixing and security risks in the encryption it uses though. ...:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 7:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function I'd be worried about the reverse situation - PHPBB is one of the most hacked web apps on the planet. On 2/20/06, Rick Root [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In an effort to do something different with my chat app, I thought it'd be cool to integrate with an EXTERNAL third party app - phpBB. I run a little blog... www.thecaniac.com (I'm a big fan of the Carolina Hurricanes hockey club). I'm also a heavy participant in the organizations official message boards, which use phpBB. So I put up a chat room on my blog, and I want people to use their phpbb usernames.. but I don't want people to be able to masquerade as someone else. So I wrote a little script that actually uses my message board login, and using CFHTTP, logs into phpbb and sends a private message to the user with a link they can use to access the chat room. The link contains an access key which is encrypted and url-encoded, it contains their username and a timestamp. And it worked! I was actually amazed. Question - how difficult is it to crack the encyption that CF uses by default? Without knowing the key I used to encrypt it, of course. -- CFAJAX docs and other useful articles: http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/ ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:233470 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function
That may be, but the fact still remains that it is a widely known, widely used, open source application which makes it more vulnerable than a piece of software that is RIDDLED with security holes but hardly used. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Kevin Aebig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 1:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function That's not completely true. I've done full scale phpBB integration and for the most part it's mainly insecure because of feature creep. They started off with a good idea, but have put a lot of people at risk with the type of framework they put in place. !k -Original Message- From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 7:38 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function Wal-Mart is one of the most widely shopped at stores on the planet but that's just because there are so many of them out there ;-) PHPBB may get hacked occasionally but it's because its widely used and well known... not to mention, anyone can see the source. Usually, the hacks happen because people don't update or pay attention to notifications of vulnerabilities. I don't recall any of those notifications or updates fixing and security risks in the encryption it uses though. :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 7:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function I'd be worried about the reverse situation - PHPBB is one of the most hacked web apps on the planet. On 2/20/06, Rick Root [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In an effort to do something different with my chat app, I thought it'd be cool to integrate with an EXTERNAL third party app - phpBB. I run a little blog... www.thecaniac.com (I'm a big fan of the Carolina Hurricanes hockey club). I'm also a heavy participant in the organizations official message boards, which use phpBB. So I put up a chat room on my blog, and I want people to use their phpbb usernames.. but I don't want people to be able to masquerade as someone else. So I wrote a little script that actually uses my message board login, and using CFHTTP, logs into phpbb and sends a private message to the user with a link they can use to access the chat room. The link contains an access key which is encrypted and url-encoded, it contains their username and a timestamp. And it worked! I was actually amazed. Question - how difficult is it to crack the encyption that CF uses by default? Without knowing the key I used to encrypt it, of course. -- CFAJAX docs and other useful articles: http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/ ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:233471 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function
well damn I never thought php would be just like windows... ~Dave the disruptor~ From: Bobby Hartsfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:40 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function Wal-Mart is one of the most widely shopped at stores on the planet but that's just because there are so many of them out there ;-) PHPBB may get hacked occasionally but it's because its widely used and well known... not to mention, anyone can see the source. Usually, the hacks happen because people don't update or pay attention to notifications of vulnerabilities. I don't recall any of those notifications or updates fixing and security risks in the encryption it uses though. ...:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:233448 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function
James Holmes wrote: I'd be worried about the reverse situation - PHPBB is one of the most hacked web apps on the planet. Granted =) But I don't have any control over that! Of course, phpBB is the most hacked cuz it's one of the most popular. I wish I had time to start hacking away at Galleon, there's a lot of phpBB features I'd like to see in it. Rick ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:232910 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function
In an effort to do something different with my chat app, I thought it'd be cool to integrate with an EXTERNAL third party app - phpBB. I run a little blog... www.thecaniac.com (I'm a big fan of the Carolina Hurricanes hockey club). I'm also a heavy participant in the organizations official message boards, which use phpBB. So I put up a chat room on my blog, and I want people to use their phpbb usernames.. but I don't want people to be able to masquerade as someone else. So I wrote a little script that actually uses my message board login, and using CFHTTP, logs into phpbb and sends a private message to the user with a link they can use to access the chat room. The link contains an access key which is encrypted and url-encoded, it contains their username and a timestamp. And it worked! I was actually amazed. Question - how difficult is it to crack the encyption that CF uses by default? Without knowing the key I used to encrypt it, of course. Rick ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:232868 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function
I'd be worried about the reverse situation - PHPBB is one of the most hacked web apps on the planet. On 2/20/06, Rick Root [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In an effort to do something different with my chat app, I thought it'd be cool to integrate with an EXTERNAL third party app - phpBB. I run a little blog... www.thecaniac.com (I'm a big fan of the Carolina Hurricanes hockey club). I'm also a heavy participant in the organizations official message boards, which use phpBB. So I put up a chat room on my blog, and I want people to use their phpbb usernames.. but I don't want people to be able to masquerade as someone else. So I wrote a little script that actually uses my message board login, and using CFHTTP, logs into phpbb and sends a private message to the user with a link they can use to access the chat room. The link contains an access key which is encrypted and url-encoded, it contains their username and a timestamp. And it worked! I was actually amazed. Question - how difficult is it to crack the encyption that CF uses by default? Without knowing the key I used to encrypt it, of course. -- CFAJAX docs and other useful articles: http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/ ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:232879 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function
Wal-Mart is one of the most widely shopped at stores on the planet but that's just because there are so many of them out there ;-) PHPBB may get hacked occasionally but it's because its widely used and well known... not to mention, anyone can see the source. Usually, the hacks happen because people dont update or pay attention to notifications of vulnerabilities. I don't recall any of those notifications or updates fixing and security risks in the encryption it uses though. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 7:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Various thoughts on chat, cfhttp, phpbb, and the encrypt function I'd be worried about the reverse situation - PHPBB is one of the most hacked web apps on the planet. On 2/20/06, Rick Root [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In an effort to do something different with my chat app, I thought it'd be cool to integrate with an EXTERNAL third party app - phpBB. I run a little blog... www.thecaniac.com (I'm a big fan of the Carolina Hurricanes hockey club). I'm also a heavy participant in the organizations official message boards, which use phpBB. So I put up a chat room on my blog, and I want people to use their phpbb usernames.. but I don't want people to be able to masquerade as someone else. So I wrote a little script that actually uses my message board login, and using CFHTTP, logs into phpbb and sends a private message to the user with a link they can use to access the chat room. The link contains an access key which is encrypted and url-encoded, it contains their username and a timestamp. And it worked! I was actually amazed. Question - how difficult is it to crack the encyption that CF uses by default? Without knowing the key I used to encrypt it, of course. -- CFAJAX docs and other useful articles: http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/ ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:232881 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I'd like to see an example of your code. Keep in mind that as I said, javascript in and of itself is not necessarily inaccessible. Its just that depending on what level of accessibility you are trying to reach and how you interpret the guidelines or requirements, determines whether javascript usage meets those requirements. -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:04 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I've tested my CFAJAX driven DHTML with JAWS, Window-Eyes and the popular screen reader on Mac (I've already forgotten its name) and all worked perfectly. On 10/17/05, Sandy Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many screen readers for the blind, can't deal with DOM changes that happen after an onLoad. I'm not saying that javascript in and of itself makes a page inaccessible, I'm saying that the requirement for a page to meet either 508 or WCAG accessibility guidelines require that the page work with javascript disabled. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221318 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I can tell you that section 508 and the WCAG both have a requirement that a page be able to work without javascript in order to be considered accessible. If you are required to build accessible web pages, then that is a major consideration. However, IBM demonstrated an accessible javascript which the new Firefox beta is supporting. Once that is widely available, I believe that the javascript disabled rule for accessibility will be deprecated. Sandra Clark -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I've never supported non-JS. Cross browser JS, yes, but building a non-JS version...? Then what? A version that works in Netscape 2? Maybe a Lynx only version? There comes a point when you can't cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, JS is pretty darn common place. Those afraid of JS and cookies should probably stick to sneaker net and snail mail :) On 10/15/05, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221184 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
That's strange - the AJAX driven DHTML JS I've built into web pages works perfectly with more than one screen reader. Is there a particular reason they made that ruling? On 10/17/05, Sandy Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can tell you that section 508 and the WCAG both have a requirement that a page be able to work without javascript in order to be considered accessible. If you are required to build accessible web pages, then that is a major consideration. However, IBM demonstrated an accessible javascript which the new Firefox beta is supporting. Once that is widely available, I believe that the javascript disabled rule for accessibility will be deprecated. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221185 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I guess that is the problem, then. Google, apparently, doesn't care to follow the 508 or WCAG requirements in regards to their Gmail and Google Maps applications. We are a privately-owned university which would not fall under any requirements, unless we wanted to, so we are a somewhat flexible. As far as our intranet, it's not totally under our control. Although we have standardized on most university-owned computers, we still have to deal with student computers which are not under our control. However, as I said, students will be forced to use Blackboard beginning the next full school year. Since it requires JS, either the students will bitch about it or quietly enable JS. As we are rebuilding our intranet site, I can find numerous places where JS/AJAX would certainly improve the experience for the majority of users. Now, I just need to figure out the best solution for when a person disables JS. Thanks for everyone's comments, and if you have more suggestions to share, please do. M!ke From: Sandy Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon 10/17/2005 6:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I can tell you that section 508 and the WCAG both have a requirement that a page be able to work without javascript in order to be considered accessible. If you are required to build accessible web pages, then that is a major consideration. However, IBM demonstrated an accessible javascript which the new Firefox beta is supporting. Once that is widely available, I believe that the javascript disabled rule for accessibility will be deprecated. Sandra Clark -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I've never supported non-JS. Cross browser JS, yes, but building a non-JS version...? Then what? A version that works in Netscape 2? Maybe a Lynx only version? There comes a point when you can't cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, JS is pretty darn common place. Those afraid of JS and cookies should probably stick to sneaker net and snail mail :) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221186 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
How do you handle non-JS users, technically? Let's say you have a page that requires JS. Do you immediately redirect them (using JS) to a JS-enabled page and then leave the others with noscript? Or, do you keep the JS and non-JS content on the same page? Thanks M!ke From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat 10/15/2005 9:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript Internally as you've said... I'd say, Sorry, you need JS To an extent, I would do it on many external sites as well. Sometimes budget doesn't give room to do two versions of specific components so the client needs to decide which is more important to them. Global usability or flare for the masses. If budget does allow it, I usually write 2 versions. (provided that the site isn't dependant on something like milonic menu throughout anyway) Of course, you are already running blackboard (I feel for you) and users must have JS for 95% of that anyway so why not an intranet? On a different note, I found so many bugs in Blackboard, it wasn't even funny! SQL Injection heaven. You could mimic the data structure and half the code simply from error messages in that thing! ...:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221187 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I personally use Urchin web stats on all of my sites. As part of it, it has some JS that creates cookies which are available immediately to a CF page. So the visitor hits the page, the urchin code kicks off and sets a domain cookie. You can then check for the existence of it in the cookie scope. If it doesn't exist you can assume that JS is disabled. Martin Parry http://www.beetrootstreet.com -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 October 2005 13:39 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript How do you handle non-JS users, technically? Let's say you have a page that requires JS. Do you immediately redirect them (using JS) to a JS-enabled page and then leave the others with noscript? Or, do you keep the JS and non-JS content on the same page? Thanks M!ke From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat 10/15/2005 9:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript Internally as you've said... I'd say, Sorry, you need JS To an extent, I would do it on many external sites as well. Sometimes budget doesn't give room to do two versions of specific components so the client needs to decide which is more important to them. Global usability or flare for the masses. If budget does allow it, I usually write 2 versions. (provided that the site isn't dependant on something like milonic menu throughout anyway) Of course, you are already running blackboard (I feel for you) and users must have JS for 95% of that anyway so why not an intranet? On a different note, I found so many bugs in Blackboard, it wasn't even funny! SQL Injection heaven. You could mimic the data structure and half the code simply from error messages in that thing! :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221188 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
John! You literally took the words right out mf my mouth. I've said those exact words before and I still believe it. Honestly, except for nerds, security-paranoid hackers and the occasional non-tech person who's disabled javascript because they were told that someone could steal their credit card information with it turned on, how many people REALLY have js disabled? More likely that they would have an older browser that doesn't support new methods than no javascript. Do you still worry about web-safe colors too? :) !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I've never supported non-JS. Cross browser JS, yes, but building a non-JS version...? Then what? A version that works in Netscape 2? Maybe a Lynx only version? There comes a point when you can't cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, JS is pretty darn common place. Those afraid of JS and cookies should probably stick to sneaker net and snail mail :) On 10/15/05, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221190 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
Sandy... How is having javascript on your website causing a site to be un-accessible? That makes no sense. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Sandy Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I can tell you that section 508 and the WCAG both have a requirement that a page be able to work without javascript in order to be considered accessible. If you are required to build accessible web pages, then that is a major consideration. However, IBM demonstrated an accessible javascript which the new Firefox beta is supporting. Once that is widely available, I believe that the javascript disabled rule for accessibility will be deprecated. Sandra Clark -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I've never supported non-JS. Cross browser JS, yes, but building a non-JS version...? Then what? A version that works in Netscape 2? Maybe a Lynx only version? There comes a point when you can't cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, JS is pretty darn common place. Those afraid of JS and cookies should probably stick to sneaker net and snail mail :) On 10/15/05, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221191 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
So Martin... Care to share with us the percentage of users who have js disabled on your site? !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Martin Parry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I personally use Urchin web stats on all of my sites. As part of it, it has some JS that creates cookies which are available immediately to a CF page. So the visitor hits the page, the urchin code kicks off and sets a domain cookie. You can then check for the existence of it in the cookie scope. If it doesn't exist you can assume that JS is disabled. Martin Parry http://www.beetrootstreet.com -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 October 2005 13:39 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript How do you handle non-JS users, technically? Let's say you have a page that requires JS. Do you immediately redirect them (using JS) to a JS-enabled page and then leave the others with noscript? Or, do you keep the JS and non-JS content on the same page? Thanks M!ke From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat 10/15/2005 9:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript Internally as you've said... I'd say, Sorry, you need JS To an extent, I would do it on many external sites as well. Sometimes budget doesn't give room to do two versions of specific components so the client needs to decide which is more important to them. Global usability or flare for the masses. If budget does allow it, I usually write 2 versions. (provided that the site isn't dependant on something like milonic menu throughout anyway) Of course, you are already running blackboard (I feel for you) and users must have JS for 95% of that anyway so why not an intranet? On a different note, I found so many bugs in Blackboard, it wasn't even funny! SQL Injection heaven. You could mimic the data structure and half the code simply from error messages in that thing! .:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221192 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
Another thing to think about is how/why your users come to any given site. If I have an ecommerce app into which I'm desparately trying to pull as many people as possible, I'm highly unlikely to do anything that might preclude anyone from efficiently using the site. However, if I have a site that people are using because they need to use it, then there's less of a problem requiring js or flash... --Ferg Bobby Hartsfield wrote: Internally as youve said... I'd say, Sorry, you need JS To an extent, I would do it on many external sites as well. Sometimes budget doesn't give room to do two versions of specific components so the client needs to decide which is more important to them. Global usability or flare for the masses. If budget does allow it, I usually write 2 versions. (provided that the site isnt dependant on something like milonic menu throughout anyway) Of course, you are already running blackboard (I feel for you) and users must have JS for 95% of that anyway so why not an intranet? On a different note, I found so many bugs in Blackboard, it wasn't even funny! SQL Injection heaven. You could mimic the data structure and half the code simply from error messages in that thing! ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221195 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
It'd be interesting to see the numbers on how many people disable JS these days On 10/17/05, Ken Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another thing to think about is how/why your users come to any given site. If I have an ecommerce app into which I'm desparately trying to pull as many people as possible, I'm highly unlikely to do anything that might preclude anyone from efficiently using the site. However, if I have a site that people are using because they need to use it, then there's less of a problem requiring js or flash... --Ferg Bobby Hartsfield wrote: Internally as you've said... I'd say, Sorry, you need JS To an extent, I would do it on many external sites as well. Sometimes budget doesn't give room to do two versions of specific components so the client needs to decide which is more important to them. Global usability or flare for the masses. If budget does allow it, I usually write 2 versions. (provided that the site isn't dependant on something like milonic menu throughout anyway) Of course, you are already running blackboard (I feel for you) and users must have JS for 95% of that anyway so why not an intranet? On a different note, I found so many bugs in Blackboard, it wasn't even funny! SQL Injection heaven. You could mimic the data structure and half the code simply from error messages in that thing! ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221198 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
Many screen readers for the blind, can't deal with DOM changes that happen after an onLoad. I'm not saying that javascript in and of itself makes a page inaccessible, I'm saying that the requirement for a page to meet either 508 or WCAG accessibility guidelines require that the page work with javascript disabled. Section 508 has two paragraphs that can be construed with this in mind for DHTML /Javascript (d) Documents shall be organized so they are readable without requiring an associated style sheet. (l) When pages utilize scripting languages to display content, or to create interface elements, the information provided by the script shall be identified with functional text that can be read by assistive technology. WCAG is more direct. 6.1 Organize documents so they may be read without style sheets. For example, when an HTML document is rendered without associated style sheets, it must still be possible to read the document. [Priority 1] 6.3 Ensure that pages are usable when scripts, applets, or other programmatic objects are turned off or not supported. If this is not possible, provide equivalent information on an alternative accessible page. [Priority 1] For more information see Section 508 http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContentID=12#Web WCAG http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/ -Original Message- From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 9:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript Sandy... How is having javascript on your website causing a site to be un-accessible? That makes no sense. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Sandy Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I can tell you that section 508 and the WCAG both have a requirement that a page be able to work without javascript in order to be considered accessible. If you are required to build accessible web pages, then that is a major consideration. However, IBM demonstrated an accessible javascript which the new Firefox beta is supporting. Once that is widely available, I believe that the javascript disabled rule for accessibility will be deprecated. Sandra Clark -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I've never supported non-JS. Cross browser JS, yes, but building a non-JS version...? Then what? A version that works in Netscape 2? Maybe a Lynx only version? There comes a point when you can't cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, JS is pretty darn common place. Those afraid of JS and cookies should probably stick to sneaker net and snail mail :) On 10/15/05, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221200 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
She didnt write it, she simply pointed it out and it's true. http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContentID=12 I love it when .gov sites are written in CF... it makes me feel all giddy. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 9:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript Sandy... How is having javascript on your website causing a site to be un-accessible? That makes no sense. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Sandy Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I can tell you that section 508 and the WCAG both have a requirement that a page be able to work without javascript in order to be considered accessible. If you are required to build accessible web pages, then that is a major consideration. However, IBM demonstrated an accessible javascript which the new Firefox beta is supporting. Once that is widely available, I believe that the javascript disabled rule for accessibility will be deprecated. Sandra Clark -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I've never supported non-JS. Cross browser JS, yes, but building a non-JS version...? Then what? A version that works in Netscape 2? Maybe a Lynx only version? There comes a point when you can't cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, JS is pretty darn common place. Those afraid of JS and cookies should probably stick to sneaker net and snail mail :) On 10/15/05, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221202 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I like seeing .gov sites written in CF. The reason I think most .gov sites are written in CF is because those contracts are low bid and CF has an advantage there. If you meet the requirements and have the lowest price, you get the job. Mark -Original Message- From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 10:27 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript She didnt write it, she simply pointed it out and it's true. http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContentID=12 I love it when .gov sites are written in CF... it makes me feel all giddy. ...:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 9:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript Sandy... How is having javascript on your website causing a site to be un-accessible? That makes no sense. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Sandy Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:33 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I can tell you that section 508 and the WCAG both have a requirement that a page be able to work without javascript in order to be considered accessible. If you are required to build accessible web pages, then that is a major consideration. However, IBM demonstrated an accessible javascript which the new Firefox beta is supporting. Once that is widely available, I believe that the javascript disabled rule for accessibility will be deprecated. Sandra Clark -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I've never supported non-JS. Cross browser JS, yes, but building a non-JS version...? Then what? A version that works in Netscape 2? Maybe a Lynx only version? There comes a point when you can't cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, JS is pretty darn common place. Those afraid of JS and cookies should probably stick to sneaker net and snail mail :) On 10/15/05, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221206 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
Sandy, You and I read the 508 differently with respect to whether it requires a page to function without javascript. I defer to the government's own document interpreting the requirement and giving examples of problem situations and workarounds: http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(l) It doesn't say that the page must work with javascript disabled, instead it talks about how javascript is beneficial to many government sites but that some ways in which it is implemented that can cause problems. As I'm sure you know, 508 was specifically created because the WAI rules were too convoluted and restrictive. On the up side, 508 doesn't specifically require the page to function without javascript. On the flip side though, because it's not a clear cut yes/no to javascript it's hard to agree on what is and isn't compliant because it requires so much subjective interpretation. For the point of this discussion though I agree with you that it does seem that using AJAX in .gov/.edu can be a problem, which is very unfortunate. --- Kevin Graeme Cooperative Extension Technology Services University of Wisconsin-Extension -Original Message- From: Sandy Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 8:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript Section 508 has two paragraphs that can be construed with this in mind for DHTML /Javascript (d) Documents shall be organized so they are readable without requiring an associated style sheet. (l) When pages utilize scripting languages to display content, or to create interface elements, the information provided by the script shall be identified with functional text that can be read by assistive technology. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221212 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I'd be interested as well, but I'd think the number could vary widely depending on the audience of a given site. I once had a client with a huge percentage of no-cookie visitors. Turned out they were being visited by hundreds of users per organization they contracted with (which were hospitals) and some of those banned cookies. That same site used Milonic for their main menu for the last four years until recently. I moved them back to html but not because of js issues. -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221225 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I've tested my CFAJAX driven DHTML with JAWS, Window-Eyes and the popular screen reader on Mac (I've already forgotten its name) and all worked perfectly. On 10/17/05, Sandy Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many screen readers for the blind, can't deal with DOM changes that happen after an onLoad. I'm not saying that javascript in and of itself makes a page inaccessible, I'm saying that the requirement for a page to meet either 508 or WCAG accessibility guidelines require that the page work with javascript disabled. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221292 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I've never supported non-JS. Cross browser JS, yes, but building a non-JS version...? Then what? A version that works in Netscape 2? Maybe a Lynx only version? There comes a point when you can't cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, JS is pretty darn common place. Those afraid of JS and cookies should probably stick to sneaker net and snail mail :) On 10/15/05, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221174 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221140 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript
Internally as youve said... I'd say, Sorry, you need JS To an extent, I would do it on many external sites as well. Sometimes budget doesn't give room to do two versions of specific components so the client needs to decide which is more important to them. Global usability or flare for the masses. If budget does allow it, I usually write 2 versions. (provided that the site isnt dependant on something like milonic menu throughout anyway) Of course, you are already running blackboard (I feel for you) and users must have JS for 95% of that anyway so why not an intranet? On a different note, I found so many bugs in Blackboard, it wasn't even funny! SQL Injection heaven. You could mimic the data structure and half the code simply from error messages in that thing! ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: SOT: Thoughts on Requiring Javascript I'm interested in what you think of requiring JS for a web site. What is the current mentality on JS? I know that to use Gmail, Google Maps and, in our case, Blackboard Learning System, you must enable JS. I would love to get more into AJAX to make my pages easier to build and use, but I'm afraid I may alienate some people. I will say, that as an educational institution, we have some people that will disable JS, but it should be a minimal amount. Let's say that I do require an extensive amount of JS on my site (it will be an intranet), then how far do I go to support non-JS users? Let's also say I create a form that lets me look up a user based on their ID number, name or email address. AJAX will make this task very easy. However, if a person disables JS, should I bother to create a non-JS version of the page? I'm just curious in how far you go to require JS and, if you do, do you give an alternative other than Sorry, this page requires javascript? Thanks ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:221141 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Architecture thoughts
On Tuesday 09 August 2005 18:32, Dawson, Michael wrote:
We are currently working on a small project to test AJAX feasibility for
us. We found that it is a great deal of work compared to simple page
I've got a simple wrapper JS function that goes around the Sarissa crosbrowser
xmlHttpRequest, and allows me to say
xmlDoc=makeRequest('getUserDetails','userid=32');
This is translated inside makeRequest into a HTTP form post.
The wrapper handles all the client-side error reporting and traps.
The wrapper calls a single server-side .cfm page,which basically acts as a
fusebox/switch, and returns empty strong or an xml doc. Errors are trapped
and logged, as well as passed back to the client for display.
This makes it very, very easy, and fast.
I'm hopefully going to get a chance to write up some details in my blog today.
--
Tom Chiverton
Advanced ColdFusion Programmer
~|
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