Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[cryptobyte]

ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting certifications,
..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called or
what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in part,
this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]

At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper end,
sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to stay
current.

In that it follows the path of least resistance, Capitalism starts to
acquire the properties of electricity.  Capitalism is a predicated on the
ability to produce and sell a product [or service] at the least expense
for the highest margin possible.  If your type of services are needed and
you are a bono fide, card carrying CCxx, MSxx, xNx, you have expectations
about market value, time in industry, what you know, who you know, how
much you know, etc.  To repeat, you have expectations of what you are
worth.

What happens, since you want x money and you can't get any work because
you are just a PAPER  at your new expertise level because joe/jane doe
will do the work for a fraction of what you have come to expect, probably
deserve and the market used to bear.  [Union shops come to mind.]

Suddenly, H1B and Certification are entwined - up to your and my neck.
Then, to take it a step further, what happens when an H1B starts under
cutting another H1B.  At that point, we are all on a downward spiral - if
not already.

Other than,  "It's not on topic ...", please explain your position
ElephantChild.






ElephantChild wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, cryptobyte wrote:
>
> > Given this venue, H1-B seems on topic.  Just sharing from
> > Greenspun.com:LUSENET:{GICC)
>
> It's not on topic for [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is about getting
> certifications, not jobs. And as for [EMAIL PROTECTED], any archive
> search would've shown that this was discussed before, generating much
> heat, little light, and no discernible change of position on either
> side.
>
> --
> Bungee jumping and skydiving are for wimps. If you want to experience
> true gut-wrenching terror, have children. --Dusty Rhoades.
>
> **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
> _
> UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
> FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
> Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
_
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Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Dale Holmes]

"We don't want none of dem dang ferners comin' over here an' takin' our jobs 
away from us... or our wimmen neether!"

Sometimes it is embarrassing to be from the US... In the technology arena, 
as in any other, there are typical salary ranges for certain types of 
positions, then there are exceptions, both high and low. If you have any 
savvy at all, you find that you will earn what you are willing to settle 
for. Remember when you contemplate your own value in the marketplace that 
the technology arena is a GLOBAL marketplace.

Think globally, act locally!

Dale
[=`)

>From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: ElephantChild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:20:08 -0600
>
>certifications, not jobs.>
>
>ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting certifications,
>..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called or
>what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
>At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in part,
>this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
>etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]
>
>At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
>beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
>they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper end,
>sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to stay
>current.
>
>In that it follows the path of least resistance, Capitalism starts to
>acquire the properties of electricity.  Capitalism is a predicated on the
>ability to produce and sell a product [or service] at the least expense
>for the highest margin possible.  If your type of services are needed and
>you are a bono fide, card carrying CCxx, MSxx, xNx, you have expectations
>about market value, time in industry, what you know, who you know, how
>much you know, etc.  To repeat, you have expectations of what you are
>worth.
>
>What happens, since you want x money and you can't get any work because
>you are just a PAPER  at your new expertise level because joe/jane doe
>will do the work for a fraction of what you have come to expect, probably
>deserve and the market used to bear.  [Union shops come to mind.]
>
>Suddenly, H1B and Certification are entwined - up to your and my neck.
>Then, to take it a step further, what happens when an H1B starts under
>cutting another H1B.  At that point, we are all on a downward spiral - if
>not already.
>
>Other than,  "It's not on topic ...", please explain your position
>ElephantChild.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ElephantChild wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, cryptobyte wrote:
> >
> > > Given this venue, H1-B seems on topic.  Just sharing from
> > > Greenspun.com:LUSENET:{GICC)
> >
> > It's not on topic for [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is about getting
> > certifications, not jobs. And as for [EMAIL PROTECTED], any archive
> > search would've shown that this was discussed before, generating much
> > heat, little light, and no discernible change of position on either
> > side.
> >
> > --
> > Bungee jumping and skydiving are for wimps. If you want to experience
> > true gut-wrenching terror, have children. --Dusty Rhoades.
> >
> > **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
> > _
> > UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
> > FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
> > Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
>http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
>_
>UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
>FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
>Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

_
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**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
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Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Dick Silva]

/
A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get experience
when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
other countries?

Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because they
work for so much less.

As I said,  just a thought.
\
-Original Message-
From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ElephantChild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


>certifications, not jobs.>
>
>ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting certifications,
>..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called or
>what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
>At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in part,
>this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
>etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]
>
>At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
>beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
>they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper end,
>sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to stay
>current.
>
>In that it follows the path of least resistance, Capitalism starts to
>acquire the properties of electricity.  Capitalism is a predicated on the
>ability to produce and sell a product [or service] at the least expense
>for the highest margin possible.  If your type of services are needed and
>you are a bono fide, card carrying CCxx, MSxx, xNx, you have expectations
>about market value, time in industry, what you know, who you know, how
>much you know, etc.  To repeat, you have expectations of what you are
>worth.
>
>What happens, since you want x money and you can't get any work because
>you are just a PAPER  at your new expertise level because joe/jane doe
>will do the work for a fraction of what you have come to expect, probably
>deserve and the market used to bear.  [Union shops come to mind.]
>
>Suddenly, H1B and Certification are entwined - up to your and my neck.
>Then, to take it a step further, what happens when an H1B starts under
>cutting another H1B.  At that point, we are all on a downward spiral - if
>not already.
>
>Other than,  "It's not on topic ...", please explain your position
>ElephantChild.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ElephantChild wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, cryptobyte wrote:
>>
>> > Given this venue, H1-B seems on topic.  Just sharing from
>> > Greenspun.com:LUSENET:{GICC)
>>
>> It's not on topic for [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is about getting
>> certifications, not jobs. And as for [EMAIL PROTECTED], any archive
>> search would've shown that this was discussed before, generating much
>> heat, little light, and no discernible change of position on either
>> side.
>>
>> --
>> Bungee jumping and skydiving are for wimps. If you want to experience
>> true gut-wrenching terror, have children. --Dusty Rhoades.
>>
>> **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
>> _
>> UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
>> FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
>> Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>___
>To unsubscribe from the Jobs list, send a message to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body containing:
>unsubscribe jobs
>

**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
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UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Sam Adams]

I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?

BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the foreign workers do
not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it easy
either.

IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Dick Silva
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


/
A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get experience
when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
other countries?

Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because they
work for so much less.

As I said,  just a thought.
\
-Original Message-
From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ElephantChild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


>certifications, not jobs.>
>
>ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting certifications,
>..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called or
>what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
>At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in part,
>this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
>etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]
>
>At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
>beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
>they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper end,
>sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to stay
>current.
>
>In that it follows the path of least resistance, Capitalism starts to
>acquire the properties of electricity.  Capitalism is a predicated on the
>ability to produce and sell a product [or service] at the least expense
>for the highest margin possible.  If your type of services are needed and
>you are a bono fide, card carrying CCxx, MSxx, xNx, you have expectations
>about market value, time in industry, what you know, who you know, how
>much you know, etc.  To repeat, you have expectations of what you are
>worth.
>
>What happens, since you want x money and you can't get any work because
>you are just a PAPER  at your new expertise level because joe/jane doe
>will do the work for a fraction of what you have come to expect, probably
>deserve and the market used to bear.  [Union shops come to mind.]
>
>Suddenly, H1B and Certification are entwined - up to your and my neck.
>Then, to take it a step further, what happens when an H1B starts under
>cutting another H1B.  At that point, we are all on a downward spiral - if
>not already.
>
>Other than,  "It's not on topic ...", please explain your position
>ElephantChild.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ElephantChild wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, cryptobyte wrote:
>>
>> > Given this venue, H1-B seems on topic.  Just sharing from
>> > Greenspun.com:LUSENET:{GICC)
>>
>> It's not on topic for [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is about getting
>> certifications, not jobs. And as for [EMAIL PROTECTED], any archive
>> search would've shown that this was discussed before, generating much
>> heat, little light, and no discernible change of position on either
>> side.
>>
>> --
>> Bungee jumping and skydiving are for wimps. If you want to experience
>> true gut-wrenching terror, have children. --Dusty Rhoades.
>>
>> **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
>> _
>> UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
>> FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
>> Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>___
>To unsubscribe from the Jobs list, send a message to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body containing:
>unsubscribe jobs
>

___
To unsubscribe from the Jobs list, send a message to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body containing:
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**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
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Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Raymond Thomas]

They are supposed to be but certain companies take advantage and pay them
lower than what they would normally pay a US resident. Sucks, doesn't it?
Poor guys and gals need the money so they take what is thrown at them. It
makes me sad and mad at times thinking about the way certain people are
treated at times.

Raymond Thomas
Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
Great Neck, NY 11021
(516)498-2300 ext. 103
(516)498-1749 fax
(917)444-1334 pager
Web: http://lewisconsultants.com <http://lewisconsultants.com/>


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Sam Adams
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 6:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?

BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the foreign workers do
not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it easy
either.

IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Dick Silva
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


/
A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get experience
when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
other countries?

Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because they
work for so much less.

As I said,  just a thought.
\
-Original Message-
From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ElephantChild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


>certifications, not jobs.>
>
>ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting certifications,
>..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called or
>what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
>At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in part,
>this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
>etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]
>
>At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
>beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
>they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper end,
>sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to stay
>current.
>
>In that it follows the path of least resistance, Capitalism starts to
>acquire the properties of electricity.  Capitalism is a predicated on the
>ability to produce and sell a product [or service] at the least expense
>for the highest margin possible.  If your type of services are needed and
>you are a bono fide, card carrying CCxx, MSxx, xNx, you have expectations
>about market value, time in industry, what you know, who you know, how
>much you know, etc.  To repeat, you have expectations of what you are
>worth.
>
>What happens, since you want x money and you can't get any work because
>you are just a PAPER  at your new expertise level because joe/jane doe
>will do the work for a fraction of what you have come to expect, probably
>deserve and the market used to bear.  [Union shops come to mind.]
>
>Suddenly, H1B and Certification are entwined - up to your and my neck.
>Then, to take it a step further, what happens when an H1B starts under
>cutting another H1B.  At that point, we are all on a downward spiral - if
>not already.
>
>Other than,  "It's not on topic ...", please explain your position
>ElephantChild.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ElephantChild wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, cryptobyte wrote:
>>
>> > Given this venue, H1-B seems on topic.  Just sharing from
>> > Greenspun.com:LUSENET:{GICC)
>>
>> It's not on topic for [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is about getting
>> certifications, not jobs. And as for [EMAIL PROTECTED], any archive
>> search would've shown that this was discussed before, generating much
>> heat, little light, and no discernible change of position on either
>> side.
>>
>> --
>> Bungee jumping and skydiving are for wimps. If you want to experience
>> true gut-wrenching terror, have children. --Dusty Rhoades.
>>
>> **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
>> _
>> UPDATED Posting Guidel

Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Dick Silva]

/
H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it is federal law.

In Clearwater, FL there is a company that recruits only H-1Bs from other
countries.
One of their salesman was being interviewed by the local newspaper, St
Petersburg Times, and he was naming off the advantages of hiring foreign
workers, and I quote, "We just placed one man in Boston for $55k/yr if it
had been an American they would have had to pay $85K/yr".
I keep wondering about that level playing field George Bush Sr was always
talking about.

Like the man said...The H-1B program is a fraud.

-Original Message-
From: Sam Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


>I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?
>
>BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the foreign workers
do
>not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
>transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it easy
>either.
>
>IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
>Dick Silva
>Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
>To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>
>
>/
>A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get experience
>when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
>other countries?
>
>Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because
they
>work for so much less.
>
>As I said,  just a thought.
>\
>-Original Message-
>From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: ElephantChild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:28 AM
>Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>
>
>>>certifications, not jobs.>
>>
>>ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting certifications,
>>..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called or
>>what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
>>At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in part,
>>this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
>>etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]
>>
>>At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
>>beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
>>they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper end,
>>sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to stay
>>current.
>>
>>In that it follows the path of least resistance, Capitalism starts to
>>acquire the properties of electricity.  Capitalism is a predicated on the
>>ability to produce and sell a product [or service] at the least expense
>>for the highest margin possible.  If your type of services are needed and
>>you are a bono fide, card carrying CCxx, MSxx, xNx, you have expectations
>>about market value, time in industry, what you know, who you know, how
>>much you know, etc.  To repeat, you have expectations of what you are
>>worth.
>>
>>What happens, since you want x money and you can't get any work because
>>you are just a PAPER  at your new expertise level because joe/jane doe
>>will do the work for a fraction of what you have come to expect, probably
>>deserve and the market used to bear.  [Union shops come to mind.]
>>
>>Suddenly, H1B and Certification are entwined - up to your and my neck.
>>Then, to take it a step further, what happens when an H1B starts under
>>cutting another H1B.  At that point, we are all on a downward spiral - if
>>not already.
>>
>>Other than,  "It's not on topic ...", please explain your position
>>ElephantChild.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>ElephantChild wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, cryptobyte wrote:
>>>
>>> > Given this venue, H1-B seems on topic.  Just sharing from
>>> > Greenspun.com:LUSENET:{GICC)
>>>
>>> It's not on topic for [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is about getting
>>> certifications, not jobs. And as for [EMAIL PROTECTED], any archive
>>> search would've shown that this was discussed before, generating much
>>> heat, little light, and no discernible change of 

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Sam Adams]

I don't know what controls are in place to enforce the law.  But I would
think that someone tooting his horn about cheap foreign workers is asking
for trouble.  Perhaps, you should show the article to the INS or the
appropriate agency to put these guys out of business.  Not only are they
exploiting the system and the American people but exploiting the foreign
workers as well.

-Original Message-
From: Dick Silva [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:43 PM
To: Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


/
H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it is federal law.

In Clearwater, FL there is a company that recruits only H-1Bs from other
countries.
One of their salesman was being interviewed by the local newspaper, St
Petersburg Times, and he was naming off the advantages of hiring foreign
workers, and I quote, "We just placed one man in Boston for $55k/yr if it
had been an American they would have had to pay $85K/yr".
I keep wondering about that level playing field George Bush Sr was always
talking about.

Like the man said...The H-1B program is a fraud.

-Original Message-
From: Sam Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


>I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?
>
>BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the foreign workers
do
>not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
>transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it easy
>either.
>
>IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
>Dick Silva
>Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
>To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>
>
>/
>A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get experience
>when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
>other countries?
>
>Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because
they
>work for so much less.
>
>As I said,  just a thought.
>\
>-Original Message-
>From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: ElephantChild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:28 AM
>Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>
>
>>>certifications, not jobs.>
>>
>>ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting certifications,
>>..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called or
>>what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
>>At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in part,
>>this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
>>etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]
>>
>>At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
>>beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
>>they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper end,
>>sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to stay
>>current.
>>
>>In that it follows the path of least resistance, Capitalism starts to
>>acquire the properties of electricity.  Capitalism is a predicated on the
>>ability to produce and sell a product [or service] at the least expense
>>for the highest margin possible.  If your type of services are needed and
>>you are a bono fide, card carrying CCxx, MSxx, xNx, you have expectations
>>about market value, time in industry, what you know, who you know, how
>>much you know, etc.  To repeat, you have expectations of what you are
>>worth.
>>
>>What happens, since you want x money and you can't get any work because
>>you are just a PAPER  at your new expertise level because joe/jane doe
>>will do the work for a fraction of what you have come to expect, probably
>>deserve and the market used to bear.  [Union shops come to mind.]
>>
>>Suddenly, H1B and Certification are entwined - up to your and my neck.
>>Then, to take it a step further, what happens when an H1B starts under
>>cutting another H1B.  At that point, we are all on a downward spiral - if
>>not already.
>>
>>Other than,  "It's not on topic ...", please explain your position
>>ElephantChild.
>>
>>
>>
&

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Matt C. Lange]

Hey just remember they are willing to take the pay cut to get citizenship.
Also, 50,000 grand is like 1 millions over there so I have been told by a
Consultant from India.   They come here take away american jobs and  make
there nest egg and go back as kings.
Just my two cents, Oh and I am not racist I would feel the same if it were
someone form Germany as well.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Sam Adams
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:12 PM
To: 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


I don't know what controls are in place to enforce the law.  But I would
think that someone tooting his horn about cheap foreign workers is asking
for trouble.  Perhaps, you should show the article to the INS or the
appropriate agency to put these guys out of business.  Not only are they
exploiting the system and the American people but exploiting the foreign
workers as well.

-Original Message-
From: Dick Silva [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:43 PM
To: Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


/
H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it is federal law.

In Clearwater, FL there is a company that recruits only H-1Bs from other
countries.
One of their salesman was being interviewed by the local newspaper, St
Petersburg Times, and he was naming off the advantages of hiring foreign
workers, and I quote, "We just placed one man in Boston for $55k/yr if it
had been an American they would have had to pay $85K/yr".
I keep wondering about that level playing field George Bush Sr was always
talking about.

Like the man said...The H-1B program is a fraud.

-Original Message-
From: Sam Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


>I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?
>
>BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the foreign workers
do
>not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
>transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it easy
>either.
>
>IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
>Dick Silva
>Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
>To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>
>
>/
>A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get experience
>when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
>other countries?
>
>Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because
they
>work for so much less.
>
>As I said,  just a thought.
>\
>-Original Message-
>From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: ElephantChild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:28 AM
>Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>
>
>>>certifications, not jobs.>
>>
>>ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting certifications,
>>..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called or
>>what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
>>At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in part,
>>this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
>>etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]
>>
>>At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
>>beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
>>they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper end,
>>sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to stay
>>current.
>>
>>In that it follows the path of least resistance, Capitalism starts to
>>acquire the properties of electricity.  Capitalism is a predicated on the
>>ability to produce and sell a product [or service] at the least expense
>>for the highest margin possible.  If your type of services are needed and
>>you are a bono fide, card carrying CCxx, MSxx, xNx, you have expectations
>>about market value, time in industry, what you know, who you know, how
>>much you know, etc.  To repeat, you have expectations of what you are
>>worth.
>>
>>What happens, since you want x money and you can't get any work because
>>you are just a PAPER  at

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[dsilva]

/
And while they have your job, ie, you're not working, your family is hungry, 
what is your point?
\



Quoting "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hey just remember they are willing to take the pay cut to get citizenship.
> Also, 50,000 grand is like 1 millions over there so I have been told by a
> Consultant from India.   They come here take away american jobs and  make
> there nest egg and go back as kings.
> Just my two cents, Oh and I am not racist I would feel the same if it were
> someone form Germany as well.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Sam Adams
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:12 PM
> To: 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> 
> 
> I don't know what controls are in place to enforce the law.  But I would
> think that someone tooting his horn about cheap foreign workers is asking
> for trouble.  Perhaps, you should show the article to the INS or the
> appropriate agency to put these guys out of business.  Not only are they
> exploiting the system and the American people but exploiting the foreign
> workers as well.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Dick Silva [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:43 PM
> To: Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> 
> 
> /
> H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it is federal law.
> 
> In Clearwater, FL there is a company that recruits only H-1Bs from other
> countries.
> One of their salesman was being interviewed by the local newspaper, St
> Petersburg Times, and he was naming off the advantages of hiring foreign
> workers, and I quote, "We just placed one man in Boston for $55k/yr if it
> had been an American they would have had to pay $85K/yr".
> I keep wondering about that level playing field George Bush Sr was always
> talking about.
> 
> Like the man said...The H-1B program is a fraud.
> 
> -Original Message-----
> From: Sam Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 3:29 PM
> Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> 
> 
> >I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?
> >
> >BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the foreign workers
> do
> >not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
> >transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it
> easy
> >either.
> >
> >IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.
> >
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> >Dick Silva
> >Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
> >To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> >/
> >A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get experience
> >when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
> >other countries?
> >
> >Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because
> they
> >work for so much less.
> >
> >As I said,  just a thought.
> >\
> >-Original Message-
> >From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: ElephantChild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:28 AM
> >Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> >> >>certifications, not jobs.>
> >>
> >>ElephantChild, I say it has alot to do " ... about getting
> certifications,
> >>..."  If you have a Certification, but no experience, what is it called
> or
> >>what is the state, status of your certification - you are a PAPER .
> >>At least, that is what is advocated by some; therefore, at least, in
> part,
> >>this is applicable whether you are a CCNA, CCDA, CCxx, CCIE, xNx, MSxx,
> >>etc. [Extended to Novell, Micrsoft, ...]
> >>
> >>At least with Cisco devices, at the lower end, it is hard for people to
> >>beg, borrow or steal an entry level position.  And then, to paraphrase,
> >>they must pay there dues and proceed with their career.  At the upper
> end,
> >>sacrifice and hard work, money, prestige, status and on going work to
> stay
> &

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[JEROME OKOLO]

It's amazing how certain people assume that they are the only ones who have 
foreigners employed in their country. There are many good jobs from where i 
come from that are being done by expatriates. Even though there is no 
shortage of qualified citizens. Get over it guys and realize that what gets 
you a job is your intelligence and your skills, not some accident of birth.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,Sam Adams 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'Dick Silva'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,        
>[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:08:18 -0400
>
>/
>And while they have your job, ie, you're not working, your family is 
>hungry,
>what is your point?
>\
>
>
>
>Quoting "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Hey just remember they are willing to take the pay cut to get 
>citizenship.
> > Also, 50,000 grand is like 1 millions over there so I have been told by 
>a
> > Consultant from India.   They come here take away american jobs and  
>make
> > there nest egg and go back as kings.
> > Just my two cents, Oh and I am not racist I would feel the same if it 
>were
> > someone form Germany as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > Sam Adams
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:12 PM
> > To: 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > I don't know what controls are in place to enforce the law.  But I would
> > think that someone tooting his horn about cheap foreign workers is 
>asking
> > for trouble.  Perhaps, you should show the article to the INS or the
> > appropriate agency to put these guys out of business.  Not only are they
> > exploiting the system and the American people but exploiting the foreign
> > workers as well.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dick Silva [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:43 PM
> > To: Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > /
> > H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it is federal law.
> >
> > In Clearwater, FL there is a company that recruits only H-1Bs from other
> > countries.
> > One of their salesman was being interviewed by the local newspaper, St
> > Petersburg Times, and he was naming off the advantages of hiring foreign
> > workers, and I quote, "We just placed one man in Boston for $55k/yr if 
>it
> > had been an American they would have had to pay $85K/yr".
> > I keep wondering about that level playing field George Bush Sr was 
>always
> > talking about.
> >
> > Like the man said...The H-1B program is a fraud.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sam Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 3:29 PM
> > Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > >I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?
> > >
> > >BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the foreign 
>workers
> > do
> > >not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
> > >transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it
> > easy
> > >either.
> > >
> > >IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.
> > >
> > >
> > >-Original Message-
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > >Dick Silva
> > >Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
> > >To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> > >
> > >
> > >/
> > >A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get 
>experience
> > >when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
> > >other countries?
> > >
> > >Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because
> > they
> > >work for so much less.
> > >
> > >As I said,  just a thought.
> > >\
> > >-Original Message-
> > >Fro

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Fuzz]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, JEROME OKOLO wrote:

> shortage of qualified citizens. Get over it guys and realize that what gets 
> you a job is your intelligence and your skills, not some accident of birth.

Not true!  I myself was beaten half to death by a horde of
foaming-at-the-mouth Indian engineers as I was waiting patiently and
expectantly in the lobby of my future employer to begin what was to be the
most important job interview of my tender young life.  Needless to say, my
badly bruised, bloody and inappropriately unconscious body failed to
impress the discriminating tastes of the hiring manager.  However I did
wake up to discover pinned to the blood-encrusted collar of my finest
whitest interview shirt a job offer to work at their help desk.  


:Fuzz

**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
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Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Matt C. Lange]

Lets kill them all!  hehehe

-Original Message-
From: William E Gragido [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:39 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Matt C. Lange; Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


I belive that this topic has a history of being regurgitated on this list.
H1B visas do one thing and that is weaken the economy of the nation by
allowing for a flood of underpriced competition into the market.  Its
unfortunate and although it may seem an abrupt attitude to adopt, I for one
do not believe that by believing this to be the truth makes a person a
xenophobe.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 6:08 PM
> To: Matt C. Lange; Sam Adams; 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>
>
> /
> And while they have your job, ie, you're not working, your family
> is hungry,
> what is your point?
> \
>
>
>
> Quoting "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Hey just remember they are willing to take the pay cut to get
> citizenship.
> > Also, 50,000 grand is like 1 millions over there so I have been
> told by a
> > Consultant from India.   They come here take away american jobs
> and  make
> > there nest egg and go back as kings.
> > Just my two cents, Oh and I am not racist I would feel the same
> if it were
> > someone form Germany as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > Sam Adams
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:12 PM
> > To: 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > I don't know what controls are in place to enforce the law.  But I would
> > think that someone tooting his horn about cheap foreign workers
> is asking
> > for trouble.  Perhaps, you should show the article to the INS or the
> > appropriate agency to put these guys out of business.  Not only are they
> > exploiting the system and the American people but exploiting the foreign
> > workers as well.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dick Silva [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:43 PM
> > To: Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > /
> > H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it is federal law.
> >
> > In Clearwater, FL there is a company that recruits only H-1Bs from other
> > countries.
> > One of their salesman was being interviewed by the local newspaper, St
> > Petersburg Times, and he was naming off the advantages of hiring foreign
> > workers, and I quote, "We just placed one man in Boston for
> $55k/yr if it
> > had been an American they would have had to pay $85K/yr".
> > I keep wondering about that level playing field George Bush Sr
> was always
> > talking about.
> >
> > Like the man said...The H-1B program is a fraud.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sam Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 3:29 PM
> > Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > >I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?
> > >
> > >BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the
> foreign workers
> > do
> > >not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
> > >transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it
> > easy
> > >either.
> > >
> > >IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.
> > >
> > >
> > >-Original Message-
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > >Dick Silva
> > >Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
> > >To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> > >
> > >
> > >/
> > >A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get
> experience
> > >when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
> > >other countries?
> > >
> > >Maybe U.S.

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[William E Gragido]

I belive that this topic has a history of being regurgitated on this list.
H1B visas do one thing and that is weaken the economy of the nation by
allowing for a flood of underpriced competition into the market.  Its
unfortunate and although it may seem an abrupt attitude to adopt, I for one
do not believe that by believing this to be the truth makes a person a
xenophobe.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 6:08 PM
> To: Matt C. Lange; Sam Adams; 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>
>
> /
> And while they have your job, ie, you're not working, your family
> is hungry,
> what is your point?
> \
>
>
>
> Quoting "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Hey just remember they are willing to take the pay cut to get
> citizenship.
> > Also, 50,000 grand is like 1 millions over there so I have been
> told by a
> > Consultant from India.   They come here take away american jobs
> and  make
> > there nest egg and go back as kings.
> > Just my two cents, Oh and I am not racist I would feel the same
> if it were
> > someone form Germany as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > Sam Adams
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:12 PM
> > To: 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > I don't know what controls are in place to enforce the law.  But I would
> > think that someone tooting his horn about cheap foreign workers
> is asking
> > for trouble.  Perhaps, you should show the article to the INS or the
> > appropriate agency to put these guys out of business.  Not only are they
> > exploiting the system and the American people but exploiting the foreign
> > workers as well.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dick Silva [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:43 PM
> > To: Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > /
> > H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it is federal law.
> >
> > In Clearwater, FL there is a company that recruits only H-1Bs from other
> > countries.
> > One of their salesman was being interviewed by the local newspaper, St
> > Petersburg Times, and he was naming off the advantages of hiring foreign
> > workers, and I quote, "We just placed one man in Boston for
> $55k/yr if it
> > had been an American they would have had to pay $85K/yr".
> > I keep wondering about that level playing field George Bush Sr
> was always
> > talking about.
> >
> > Like the man said...The H-1B program is a fraud.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sam Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 3:29 PM
> > Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > >I thought H1-B were suppose to be paid at market rate?
> > >
> > >BTW, it takes about 3 months to transfer a H1-B so if the
> foreign workers
> > do
> > >not like their jobs then they have no recourse but work until it is
> > >transferred.  Or not work until it is transferred.  They don't have it
> > easy
> > >either.
> > >
> > >IMHO, it seems that the only winners are the companies who hire them.
> > >
> > >
> > >-Original Message-
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > >Dick Silva
> > >Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 9:58 AM
> > >To: cryptobyte; ElephantChild; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> > >
> > >
> > >/
> > >A thought that occurred to me is.how do all the H-1Bs get
> experience
> > >when supposedly the U.S. is so much more technically advanced than most
> > >other countries?
> > >
> > >Maybe U.S. corporations do not require H-1Bs to have experience because
> > they
> > >work for so much less.
> > >
> > >As I said,  just a thought.
> > >\
> > >-Original Message-
> > >From: cryptobyte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Foreign Foreign]

Hi  Folks
I been reading the thread  "H1 B is a fraud" with some 
interest as I too had come here to the US on an H1 visa.
Initially I chose not to reply to this thread but I have found 
some of the emails begenning to increase in their hate content.. i just read one 
which horrified me in which some guy suggested that "WE KILL ALL OF 
THEM".
 
To such people I would like to say that your 
words  seem to mean either of these two things.
 
One.. You need a serious lesson on the history of 
america  
 
OR  
 
Two .. You are an american indian..
 
If you are NOT an american indian (the original inhabitants of 
this great country),  then I would like to remind you that you too are just 
a foreigner in the US... just because your 
great-grandparents/grandparents/parents came to America before I came here, 
doesnt mean that you have less foreign than I am.
Please remember that America is a land of people who have come 
from all parts of the world in order to make it good
Let us all work together to make America great and in the 
process make ourself great too.
 
Regards and Peace
 
 
F
 
 
 

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Dale Holmes]

Was that YOU Sorry man...


>From: Fuzz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Fuzz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: JEROME OKOLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:32:04 -0500 (CDT)
>
>
>
>On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, JEROME OKOLO wrote:
>
> > shortage of qualified citizens. Get over it guys and realize that what 
>gets
> > you a job is your intelligence and your skills, not some accident of 
>birth.
>
>Not true!  I myself was beaten half to death by a horde of
>foaming-at-the-mouth Indian engineers as I was waiting patiently and
>expectantly in the lobby of my future employer to begin what was to be the
>most important job interview of my tender young life.  Needless to say, my
>badly bruised, bloody and inappropriately unconscious body failed to
>impress the discriminating tastes of the hiring manager.  However I did
>wake up to discover pinned to the blood-encrusted collar of my finest
>whitest interview shirt a job offer to work at their help desk.
>
>
>:Fuzz
>
>**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
>http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
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>UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
>FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
>Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Raees Ahmed Shaikh]

Full 
cents to you Thomas I really appreciate your 
broad-mindedness.

  -Original Message-From: Raymond Thomas 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 
  2000 1:12 PMTo: Jobs@Groupstudy. ComSubject: RE: The 
  H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
  
  Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the 
  consultants on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence 
  in your own skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
  Here is a very simple FACT:
  There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified 
  "Americans" to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed 
  sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better qualified for 
  the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and made a 
  "wise", yet unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed 
  sponsorship because they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical decision would 
  be to import talent when there is a shortage, but pay them at market value. 
  The people that require sponsorship are more desperate for work in the US 
  because they get paid peanuts in their own country and because of a shortage 
  in opportunities. I feel bad for them because I know what it was like to be 
  poor in this country. 
  Back home, my grandfather owned an oil refinery and a textile factory. My 
  father was a doctor in our country and we were among the top 10 richest people 
  in the whole country. We owned 3-4 mansions in each city. We came to the US as 
  refugees when the Soviets invaded our country and we gave up everything we 
  ever owned and worked hard for, just for the chance of living. The military 
  now use them as army bases or meeting grounds for the generals. The US 
  wouldn't give my father a job as a doctor so he was forced to become a cab 
  driver for 6 years till he studied English and Medicine all over again to pass 
  the "American Exams". We are now considered middle to upper middle class. AT 
  first, there were 7 of us living in a small 2 bedroom apartment. One bedroom 
  was for my mother and father and the other was for my aunt, my 3 siblings and 
  myself. Barely ate at times. Not a great neighborhood. 
  I have worked hard in my short life and learned so much and am willing to 
  give up my position to someone that was more qualified than me, even if he or 
  she required sponsorship. I am all for the H1 professionals in this world, 
  especially in this country and those willing to give up a lot to come for an 
  opportunity here.
  Only the weak feel threatened.
   
  
  Raymond 
  Thomas
  Lewis Consultants International, 
  Inc.
  295 Northern Blvd 
  Suite 302
  Great Neck, NY 
  11021
  (516)498-2300 ext. 
  103
  (516)498-1749 
  fax
  (917)444-1334 
  pager
  Web: http://lewisconsultants.com 
  
   

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Raymond Thomas]

Well said. Thank you very much for your input. Hope it opens up the hearts
of the close minded ones =)

Raymond Thomas
Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
Great Neck, NY 11021
(516)498-2300 ext. 103
(516)498-1749 fax
(917)444-1334 pager
Web: http://lewisconsultants.com 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Cisco Bug
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 4:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


Hello Engineers,

 I would like to address a few issues regarding H1B
visas as this became the hot topic for some frustrated
people who could not qualify to get a job opening.

 I am amazed how people like here in this big educated
list talk about such things, especially in the golden
age of IT, where there is no boundary of country,
caste, religion, race, color etc etc. We are talking
big internet, and transit points, and gateways and
routers, and global connectivity and reachability and
balancing and faster access.

These are true hypocrites who take advantage of the
technology but when it comes to personal things they
discriminate between x & y.

To end this talk, I would add an example.

If you are given a option to buy a foreign product
much more sophisticated, cheaper, durable, and having
lot of advantages V/s selecting any local made brand
of the same product which may or may not have the same
features but it will be costlier, which one would you
people personally go for.

If you say local product, I will be sorry my friends
we are using the best type of US products all over the
world because of blah blah reasons and if everybody
thinks your way, then ??? you get what I mean,

and I am sure in US also many different products from
different countries are given preference over local
products.

Thinks yourself as a product and the employer as the
customer you will get a answer.

Everybody loves his country, and is proud of it, but
when it comes to being a customer whatever is best for
you, people go for it.

Think broader, Do broad, increase the bandwidth of
your heart, and reduce the delay of your mind get to
pure business, where there is no difference between a
citizen or a expat, quality job is the requirement
cisco is the certification.

i apologize everybody if I said something wrong.

I just want to say think broad, be global and stop
criticising others Be a polished product local/Foreign
people will go for you all over the world.

Thanks.

__
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Babashola Madariola]

Wisdom can surely not be bought.
I've never been disappointed by your comments.





"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20 AM

Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud





Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the consultants
on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in your own
skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?

Here is a very simple FACT:

There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified "Americans"
to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed
sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better qualified for
the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and made a
"wise", yet unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed
sponsorship because they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical decision
would be to import talent when there is a shortage, but pay them at market
value. The people that require sponsorship are more desperate for work in
the US because they get paid peanuts in their own country and because of a
shortage in opportunities. I feel bad for them because I know what it was
like to be poor in this country.

Back home, my grandfather owned an oil refinery and a textile factory. My
father was a doctor in our country and we were among the top 10 richest
people in the whole country. We owned 3-4 mansions in each city. We came to
the US as refugees when the Soviets invaded our country and we gave up
everything we ever owned and worked hard for, just for the chance of living.
The military now use them as army bases or meeting grounds for the generals.
The US wouldn't give my father a job as a doctor so he was forced to become
a cab driver for 6 years till he studied English and Medicine all over again
to pass the "American Exams". We are now considered middle to upper middle
class. AT first, there were 7 of us living in a small 2 bedroom apartment.
One bedroom was for my mother and father and the other was for my aunt, my 3
siblings and myself. Barely ate at times. Not a great neighborhood.

I have worked hard in my short life and learned so much and am willing to
give up my position to someone that was more qualified than me, even if he
or she required sponsorship. I am all for the H1 professionals in this
world, especially in this country and those willing to give up a lot to come
for an opportunity here.

Only the weak feel threatened.


Raymond Thomas
Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
Great Neck, NY 11021
(516)498-2300 ext. 103
(516)498-1749 fax
(917)444-1334 pager
Web: http://lewisconsultants.com







Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the consultants 
on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in your own 
skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
Here is a very simple FACT:
There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified "Americans" 
to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed sponsorship, 
there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better qualified for the position. 
The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and made a "wise", yet 
unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed sponsorship because 
they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical decision would be to import talent 
when there is a shortage, but pay them at market value. The people that require 
sponsorship are more desperate for work in the US because they get paid peanuts 
in their own country and because of a shortage in opportunities. I feel bad for 
them because I know what it was like to be poor in this country. 
Back home, my grandfather owned an oil refinery and a textile factory. My 
father was a doctor in our country and we were among the top 10 richest people 
in the whole country. We owned 3-4 mansions in each city. We came to the US as 
refugees when the Soviets invaded our country and we gave up everything we ever 
owned and worked hard for, just for the chance of living. The military now use 
them as army bases or meeting grounds for the generals. The US wouldn't give my 
father a job as a doctor so he was forced to become a cab driver for 6 years 
till he studied English and Medicine all over again to pass the "American 
Exams". We are now considered middle to upper middle class. AT first, there were 
7 of us living in a small 2 bedroom apartment. One bedroom was for my mother and 
father and the other was for my aunt, my 3 siblings and myself. Barely ate at 
times. Not a great neighborhood. 
I have worked hard in my sho

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Lopez, Robert]

Well put...

  Basically,  if you do not like your job, find another.  If you are having
issues with people from other cultures and backgrounds,  get over it.  This
is AMERICA  It's only going to get better.  Lets face it,  the
boundaries of the world are shrinking.  The folks who have issues with
"foreigners",  better take a closer look at the content of your heart.  I
have to go, I have work to do.

Robert

p.s.  Don't forget to register to vote!!

-Original Message-
From: Cisco Bug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


Hello Engineers,

 I would like to address a few issues regarding H1B
visas as this became the hot topic for some frustrated
people who could not qualify to get a job opening.

 I am amazed how people like here in this big educated
list talk about such things, especially in the golden
age of IT, where there is no boundary of country,
caste, religion, race, color etc etc. We are talking
big internet, and transit points, and gateways and
routers, and global connectivity and reachability and
balancing and faster access.

These are true hypocrites who take advantage of the
technology but when it comes to personal things they
discriminate between x & y.

To end this talk, I would add an example.

If you are given a option to buy a foreign product
much more sophisticated, cheaper, durable, and having
lot of advantages V/s selecting any local made brand
of the same product which may or may not have the same
features but it will be costlier, which one would you
people personally go for.

If you say local product, I will be sorry my friends
we are using the best type of US products all over the
world because of blah blah reasons and if everybody
thinks your way, then ??? you get what I mean, 

and I am sure in US also many different products from
different countries are given preference over local
products.

Thinks yourself as a product and the employer as the
customer you will get a answer.

Everybody loves his country, and is proud of it, but
when it comes to being a customer whatever is best for
you, people go for it.

Think broader, Do broad, increase the bandwidth of
your heart, and reduce the delay of your mind get to
pure business, where there is no difference between a
citizen or a expat, quality job is the requirement
cisco is the certification.

i apologize everybody if I said something wrong.

I just want to say think broad, be global and stop
criticising others Be a polished product local/Foreign
people will go for you all over the world.

Thanks.

__
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Claudette Graham]

Well said, I couldn't put it any better.


Claudette Graham ("Cee")
Technical Recruiter  - (Specializing in Information Technology)
The Pollak & Skan Group
Toll Free Main #: 800-995-6858
Toll Free Fax # : 888-995-8788
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WebSite Address: www.pscts.com

The Pollak and Skan Group is a privately owned company with over forty-seven 
successful years in the Technical Staffing Industry



-Original Message-
From:   Cisco Bug [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Tuesday, September 12, 2000 10:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

Hello Engineers,

 I would like to address a few issues regarding H1B
visas as this became the hot topic for some frustrated
people who could not qualify to get a job opening.

 I am amazed how people like here in this big educated
list talk about such things, especially in the golden
age of IT, where there is no boundary of country,
caste, religion, race, color etc etc. We are talking
big internet, and transit points, and gateways and
routers, and global connectivity and reachability and
balancing and faster access.

These are true hypocrites who take advantage of the
technology but when it comes to personal things they
discriminate between x & y.

To end this talk, I would add an example.

If you are given a option to buy a foreign product
much more sophisticated, cheaper, durable, and having
lot of advantages V/s selecting any local made brand
of the same product which may or may not have the same
features but it will be costlier, which one would you
people personally go for.

If you say local product, I will be sorry my friends
we are using the best type of US products all over the
world because of blah blah reasons and if everybody
thinks your way, then ??? you get what I mean, 

and I am sure in US also many different products from
different countries are given preference over local
products.

Thinks yourself as a product and the employer as the
customer you will get a answer.

Everybody loves his country, and is proud of it, but
when it comes to being a customer whatever is best for
you, people go for it.

Think broader, Do broad, increase the bandwidth of
your heart, and reduce the delay of your mind get to
pure business, where there is no difference between a
citizen or a expat, quality job is the requirement
cisco is the certification.

i apologize everybody if I said something wrong.

I just want to say think broad, be global and stop
criticising others Be a polished product local/Foreign
people will go for you all over the world.

Thanks.

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
___
To unsubscribe from the Jobs list, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the 
body containing:
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_
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Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Curtis Phillips]

Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as the 
left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in this 
country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and ignorant. 
What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a 
result of "cheap labor".

Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the 
difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this 
country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested citizens 
and that does make a difference.

I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying so 
hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have 
succeeded in building their companys in India or China.

I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere have 
taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies 
couldn't support.


>From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
>
>
>
>Wisdom can surely not be bought.
>I've never been disappointed by your comments.
>
>
>
>
>
>"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20 AM
>
>Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
>Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
>
>
>
>Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the 
>consultants
>on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in your 
>own
>skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
>
>Here is a very simple FACT:
>
>There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified 
>"Americans"
>to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed
>sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better qualified 
>for
>the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and made 
>a
>"wise", yet unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed
>sponsorship because they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical decision
>would be to import talent when there is a shortage, but pay them at market
>value. The people that require sponsorship are more desperate for work in
>the US because they get paid peanuts in their own country and because of a
>shortage in opportunities. I feel bad for them because I know what it was
>like to be poor in this country.
>
>Back home, my grandfather owned an oil refinery and a textile factory. My
>father was a doctor in our country and we were among the top 10 richest
>people in the whole country. We owned 3-4 mansions in each city. We came to
>the US as refugees when the Soviets invaded our country and we gave up
>everything we ever owned and worked hard for, just for the chance of 
>living.
>The military now use them as army bases or meeting grounds for the 
>generals.
>The US wouldn't give my father a job as a doctor so he was forced to become
>a cab driver for 6 years till he studied English and Medicine all over 
>again
>to pass the "American Exams". We are now considered middle to upper middle
>class. AT first, there were 7 of us living in a small 2 bedroom apartment.
>One bedroom was for my mother and father and the other was for my aunt, my 
>3
>siblings and myself. Barely ate at times. Not a great neighborhood.
>
>I have worked hard in my short life and learned so much and am willing to
>give up my position to someone that was more qualified than me, even if he
>or she required sponsorship. I am all for the H1 professionals in this
>world, especially in this country and those willing to give up a lot to 
>come
>for an opportunity here.
>
>Only the weak feel threatened.
>
>
>Raymond Thomas
>Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
>295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
>Great Neck, NY 11021
>(516)498-2300 ext. 103
>(516)498-1749 fax
>(917)444-1334 pager
>Web: http://lewisconsultants.com
>
>
><< att1.htm >>

_
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Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
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**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
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Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Raymond Thomas]

>I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
have
taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
couldn't support.<

So they don't waste a great mind. Why should someone just be a farmer for
example, when they have a brain to be damn good engineer?

Why do those that are against H1B professionals have so much animosity
towards them and those for them, when it's THE HIRING COMPANY to be blamed
IF and ONLY IF they hire them as cheap labor? 80% of the H1 professionals
are here because there aren't enough qualified "Americans" for the job.

THE PROBLEM IS OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM!!!
We are too damn lenient. I hated it when some ignorant bastard makes a
comment like "That Chink thinks he's so smart". It frustrated me and made me
so angry back in school. That "Chink" who happened to be Japanese came from
the school of hard Knox! He was smarter than most college kids, only because
the education system was much tougher in their country, and not because he
was born a genius. The human brain is so complex and such a phenomenon, that
we still don't know how much one can absorb. So in Japan, they threw more at
the kids, and what happened... they turned out smarter than our kids.

THINK PEOPLE!

Raymond Thomas
Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
Great Neck, NY 11021
(516)498-2300 ext. 103
(516)498-1749 fax
(917)444-1334 pager
Web: http://lewisconsultants.com <http://lewisconsultants.com/>


-Original Message-
From: Curtis Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:49 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as the
left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in this
country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and ignorant.
What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a
result of "cheap labor".

Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this
country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested citizens
and that does make a difference.

I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying so
hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
succeeded in building their companys in India or China.

I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere have
taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
couldn't support.


>From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
>
>
>
>Wisdom can surely not be bought.
>I've never been disappointed by your comments.
>
>
>
>
>
>"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20 AM
>
>Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
>Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
>
>
>
>Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the
>consultants
>on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in your
>own
>skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
>
>Here is a very simple FACT:
>
>There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified
>"Americans"
>to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed
>sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better qualified
>for
>the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and made
>a
>"wise", yet unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed
>sponsorship because they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical decision
>would be to import talent when there is a shortage, but pay them at market
>value. The people that require sponsorship are more desperate for work in
>the US because they get paid peanuts in their own country and because of a
>shortage in opportunities. I feel bad for them because I know what it was
>like to be poor in this country.
>
>Back home, my grandfather owned an oil refinery and a textile factory. My
>father was a doctor in our country and we were among the top 10 richest
>people in the whole country. We owned 3-4 mansions in each city. We came to
>the US as

Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Foreign Foreign]

Curtis

Please answer a question for me. Actually two.
1) You expect to be given first rights because your ancestors have bled for
this country? Have you bled for this country?
2) Why did your ancestors come to this country? Is it because they had
everything in their motherland and chose to give it all up and start all
over again? If they really did so then, I salute them. If not, I rest my
case.


- Original Message -
From: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


> Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as
the
> left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in this
> country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and
ignorant.
> What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a
> result of "cheap labor".
>
> Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
> difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this
> country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested citizens
> and that does make a difference.
>
> I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying so
> hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
> succeeded in building their companys in India or China.
>
> I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
have
> taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> couldn't support.
>
>
> >From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
> >
> >
> >
> >Wisdom can surely not be bought.
> >I've never been disappointed by your comments.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20 AM
> >
> >Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
> >Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the
> >consultants
> >on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in your
> >own
> >skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
> >
> >Here is a very simple FACT:
> >
> >There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified
> >"Americans"
> >to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed
> >sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better qualified
> >for
> >the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and
made
> >a
> >"wise", yet unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed
> >sponsorship because they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical decision
> >would be to import talent when there is a shortage, but pay them at
market
> >value. The people that require sponsorship are more desperate for work in
> >the US because they get paid peanuts in their own country and because of
a
> >shortage in opportunities. I feel bad for them because I know what it was
> >like to be poor in this country.
> >
> >Back home, my grandfather owned an oil refinery and a textile factory. My
> >father was a doctor in our country and we were among the top 10 richest
> >people in the whole country. We owned 3-4 mansions in each city. We came
to
> >the US as refugees when the Soviets invaded our country and we gave up
> >everything we ever owned and worked hard for, just for the chance of
> >living.
> >The military now use them as army bases or meeting grounds for the
> >generals.
> >The US wouldn't give my father a job as a doctor so he was forced to
become
> >a cab driver for 6 years till he studied English and Medicine all over
> >again
> >to pass the "American Exams". We are now considered middle to upper
middle
> >class. AT first, there were 7 of us living in a small 2 bedroom
apartment.
> >One bedroom was for my mother and father and the other was for my aunt,
my
> >3
> >siblings and myself. Barely 

RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[patric . ozoux]

Most of us are not interested with your childish opinions, please give us a
break.


IMPORTANT NOTICE:
This email is confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the
intended recipient only.  Access, disclosure, copying, distribution, or
reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal
offence.  Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the
sender.


**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
_
UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Curtis Phillips]

Do I expect first rights? Of course. And you would as well.
No I have not bled for this country but I could have. Could you?
H1Bs are not a citizenship issue anyway. These people are not applying for 
citizenships.. that is another issue.
I am not angry at these people. I am unhappy that there is an attempt to 
decieve the American people as to the severity of this shortage and
because there is an undercutting of wage value.



>From: "Foreign Foreign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:29:25 -0400
>
>Curtis
>
>Please answer a question for me. Actually two.
>1) You expect to be given first rights because your ancestors have bled for
>this country? Have you bled for this country?
>2) Why did your ancestors come to this country? Is it because they had
>everything in their motherland and chose to give it all up and start all
>over again? If they really did so then, I salute them. If not, I rest my
>case.
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:49 PM
>Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
> > Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as
>the
> > left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in 
>this
> > country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and
>ignorant.
> > What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a
> > result of "cheap labor".
> >
> > Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
> > difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this
> > country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested 
>citizens
> > and that does make a difference.
> >
> > I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying 
>so
> > hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
> > succeeded in building their companys in India or China.
> >
> > I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
>have
> > taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> > couldn't support.
> >
> >
> > >From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Wisdom can surely not be bought.
> > >I've never been disappointed by your comments.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20 
>AM
> > >
> > >Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
> > >Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the
> > >consultants
> > >on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in 
>your
> > >own
> > >skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
> > >
> > >Here is a very simple FACT:
> > >
> > >There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified
> > >"Americans"
> > >to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed
> > >sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better 
>qualified
> > >for
> > >the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and
>made
> > >a
> > >"wise", yet unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed
> > >sponsorship because they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical 
>decision
> > >would be to import talent when there is a shortage, but pay them at
>market
> > >value. The people that require sponsorship are more desperate for work 
>in
> > >the US because they get paid peanuts in their own country and because 
>of
>a
&g

RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Curtis Phillips]

I assure you there is nothing childish about my opinion.
Have you been reduced to name calling already?


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:29:23 -0400
>
>
>
>
>
>Most of us are not interested with your childish opinions, please give us a
>break.
>
>
>IMPORTANT NOTICE:
>This email is confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the
>intended recipient only.  Access, disclosure, copying, distribution, or
>reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal
>offence.  Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the
>sender.
>
>

_
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
_
UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Ole Drews Jensen]

Are you saying that if you happen to be born in - let's say Greenland, your
only carrier choice would be whale catcher because neither Microsoft nor
Cisco started their business up there?

I think that if the fathers and grandfathers you're talking about knew they
were going to bled before they left their mother country, they would
probably have stayed at home. The reason why they immigrated over here was
because they hoped for better opportunities, just like foreigners who come
here now to get IT jobs. Nobody immigrates anywhere to get in to a worse
situation - at least not by their free will.

Just my $0.02.

Ole

~~
 Ole Drews Jensen
 Systems Network Manager
 CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I
 RWR Enterprises, Inc.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
~~



-Original Message-
From: Curtis Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 12:49 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as the 
left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in this 
country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and ignorant. 
What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a 
result of "cheap labor".

Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the 
difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this 
country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested citizens 
and that does make a difference.

I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying so 
hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have 
succeeded in building their companys in India or China.

I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere have

taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies 
couldn't support.


>From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
>
>
>
>Wisdom can surely not be bought.
>I've never been disappointed by your comments.
>
>
>
>
>
>"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20 AM
>
>Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
>Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
>
>
>
>Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the 
>consultants
>on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in your 
>own
>skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
>
>Here is a very simple FACT:
>
>There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified 
>"Americans"
>to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed
>sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better qualified 
>for
>the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and made 
>a
>"wise", yet unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed
>sponsorship because they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical decision
>would be to import talent when there is a shortage, but pay them at market
>value. The people that require sponsorship are more desperate for work in
>the US because they get paid peanuts in their own country and because of a
>shortage in opportunities. I feel bad for them because I know what it was
>like to be poor in this country.
>
>Back home, my grandfather owned an oil refinery and a textile factory. My
>father was a doctor in our country and we were among the top 10 richest
>people in the whole country. We owned 3-4 mansions in each city. We came to
>the US as refugees when the Soviets invaded our country and we gave up
>everything we ever owned and worked hard for, just for the chance of 
>living.
>The military now use them as army bases or meeting grounds for the 
>generals.
>The US wouldn't give my father a job as a doctor so he was forced to become
>a cab driver for 6 years till he studied English and Medicine all over 
>again
>to pass the "American Exams". We are now considered middle to upper middle
>class. AT first, there were 7 of us living in a small 2 bedroom apartment.
>One bedroom was for my mother and father and the other was for my aunt, my 
>3
>siblings and myself. Barely ate at times. Not a great neighborhood.
>
>I have worked hard in my short l

Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Foreign Foreign]

Hi

I have to agree with Ramond on the Education issue.
This is an article an friend of mine sent me the education system. He was
from India hence the comparison bet the Indian system and the American one.
But I think it would apply to other parts of the world.

http://www.cecs.uci.edu/~sumitg/essays/IndianVsUSEducation.html

Read this and reflect on what he says. Having seen both systems first hand I
agree with him.




- Original Message -
From: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


> >I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
> have
> taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> couldn't support.<
>
> So they don't waste a great mind. Why should someone just be a farmer for
> example, when they have a brain to be damn good engineer?
>
> Why do those that are against H1B professionals have so much animosity
> towards them and those for them, when it's THE HIRING COMPANY to be blamed
> IF and ONLY IF they hire them as cheap labor? 80% of the H1 professionals
> are here because there aren't enough qualified "Americans" for the job.
>
> THE PROBLEM IS OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM!!!
> We are too damn lenient. I hated it when some ignorant bastard makes a
> comment like "That Chink thinks he's so smart". It frustrated me and made
me
> so angry back in school. That "Chink" who happened to be Japanese came
from
> the school of hard Knox! He was smarter than most college kids, only
because
> the education system was much tougher in their country, and not because he
> was born a genius. The human brain is so complex and such a phenomenon,
that
> we still don't know how much one can absorb. So in Japan, they threw more
at
> the kids, and what happened... they turned out smarter than our kids.
>
> THINK PEOPLE!
>
> Raymond Thomas
> Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
> 295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
> Great Neck, NY 11021
> (516)498-2300 ext. 103
> (516)498-1749 fax
> (917)444-1334 pager
> Web: http://lewisconsultants.com <http://lewisconsultants.com/>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Curtis Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:49 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
> Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as
the
> left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in this
> country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and
ignorant.
> What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a
> result of "cheap labor".
>
> Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
> difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this
> country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested citizens
> and that does make a difference.
>
> I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying so
> hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
> succeeded in building their companys in India or China.
>
> I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
have
> taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> couldn't support.
>
>
> >From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
> >
> >
> >
> >Wisdom can surely not be bought.
> >I've never been disappointed by your comments.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20 AM
> >
> >Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
> >Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the
> >consultants
> >on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence

Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Foreign Foreign]

 Hi

 I have to agree with Ramond on the Education issue.
 This is an article an friend of mine sent me about the education system. He
was
 from India hence the comparison bet the Indian system and the American one.
 But I think it would apply to other parts of the world.

 http://www.cecs.uci.edu/~sumitg/essays/IndianVsUSEducation.html

 Read this and reflect on what he says. Having seen both systems first hand
I
 agree with him.




 - Original Message -
 From: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:07 AM
> Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
> > >I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
> > have
> > taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> > couldn't support.<
> >
> > So they don't waste a great mind. Why should someone just be a farmer
for
> > example, when they have a brain to be damn good engineer?
> >
> > Why do those that are against H1B professionals have so much animosity
> > towards them and those for them, when it's THE HIRING COMPANY to be
blamed
> > IF and ONLY IF they hire them as cheap labor? 80% of the H1
professionals
> > are here because there aren't enough qualified "Americans" for the job.
> >
> > THE PROBLEM IS OUR EDUCATION
SYSTEM!!!
> > We are too damn lenient. I hated it when some ignorant bastard makes a
> > comment like "That Chink thinks he's so smart". It frustrated me and
made
> me
> > so angry back in school. That "Chink" who happened to be Japanese came
> from
> > the school of hard Knox! He was smarter than most college kids, only
> because
> > the education system was much tougher in their country, and not because
he
> > was born a genius. The human brain is so complex and such a phenomenon,
> that
> > we still don't know how much one can absorb. So in Japan, they threw
more
> at
> > the kids, and what happened... they turned out smarter than our kids.
> >
> > THINK PEOPLE!
> >
> > Raymond Thomas
> > Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
> > 295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
> > Great Neck, NY 11021
> > (516)498-2300 ext. 103
> > (516)498-1749 fax
> > (917)444-1334 pager
> > Web: http://lewisconsultants.com <http://lewisconsultants.com/>
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Curtis Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:49 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> >
> >
> > Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as
> the
> > left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in
this
> > country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and
> ignorant.
> > What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a
> > result of "cheap labor".
> >
> > Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
> > difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this
> > country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested
citizens
> > and that does make a difference.
> >
> > I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying
so
> > hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
> > succeeded in building their companys in India or China.
> >
> > I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
> have
> > taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> > couldn't support.
> >
> >
> > >From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Wisdom can surely not be bought.
> > >I've never been disappointed by your comments.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20
AM
> > >
> > >Pleas

RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[William E Gragido]

Well, I served this country in USMC and I feel that there is a media slant
to this issue as well.  While in the service my job was high tech and when I
came out I never had a problem finding work nor did I experience a problem
competing with those here on H1B Visas.


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Curtis Phillips
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
> Do I expect first rights? Of course. And you would as well.
> No I have not bled for this country but I could have. Could you?
> H1Bs are not a citizenship issue anyway. These people are not
> applying for
> citizenships.. that is another issue.
> I am not angry at these people. I am unhappy that there is an attempt to
> decieve the American people as to the severity of this shortage and
> because there is an undercutting of wage value.
>
>
>
> >From: "Foreign Foreign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:29:25 -0400
> >
> >Curtis
> >
> >Please answer a question for me. Actually two.
> >1) You expect to be given first rights because your ancestors
> have bled for
> >this country? Have you bled for this country?
> >2) Why did your ancestors come to this country? Is it because they had
> >everything in their motherland and chose to give it all up and start all
> >over again? If they really did so then, I salute them. If not, I rest my
> >case.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:49 PM
> >Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> >
> >
> > > Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as
> predictable as
> >the
> > > left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in
> >this
> > > country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and
> >ignorant.
> > > What is being said is that wages, in general are being
> watered down as a
> > > result of "cheap labor".
> > >
> > > Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
> > > difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to
> defend this
> > > country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested
> >citizens
> > > and that does make a difference.
> > >
> > > I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should
> be lobbying
> >so
> > > hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
> > > succeeded in building their companys in India or China.
> > >
> > > I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from
> elsewhere
> >have
> > > taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> > > couldn't support.
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Wisdom can surely not be bought.
> > > >I've never been disappointed by your comments.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on
> 09/12/2000 09:12:20
> >AM
> > > >
> > > >Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >
> > > >To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
> > > >Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the
> > > >consultants
> > > >on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in
> >your
&

RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Raymond Thomas]

Last time I checked, this was a forum for jobs, and the H1 workers are part
of the equation.

Raymond Thomas
Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
Great Neck, NY 11021
(516)498-2300 ext. 103
(516)498-1749 fax
(917)444-1334 pager
Web: http://lewisconsultants.com
-Original Message-
From: Sherwood, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:44 PM
To: 'Foreign Foreign'; Raymond Thomas; Curtis Phillips;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jobs@Groupstudy. Com
Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


While I respect everyones opinion here, isn't there a cultural discussion
group somewhere on the web for this?  Could we please get back to the matter
at hand?  Cisco Routers.
Thanks -
-Original Message-
From: Foreign Foreign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 2:04 PM
To: Raymond Thomas; Curtis Phillips; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jobs@Groupstudy. Com
Subject: Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


Hi
I have to agree with Ramond on the Education issue.
This is an article an friend of mine sent me the education system. He was
from India hence the comparison bet the Indian system and the American one.
But I think it would apply to other parts of the world.
http://www.cecs.uci.edu/~sumitg/essays/IndianVsUSEducation.html
Read this and reflect on what he says. Having seen both systems first hand I
agree with him.




- Original Message -
From: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


> >I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
> have
> taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> couldn't support.<
>
> So they don't waste a great mind. Why should someone just be a farmer for
> example, when they have a brain to be damn good engineer?
>
> Why do those that are against H1B professionals have so much animosity
> towards them and those for them, when it's THE HIRING COMPANY to be blamed
> IF and ONLY IF they hire them as cheap labor? 80% of the H1 professionals
> are here because there aren't enough qualified "Americans" for the job.
>
> THE PROBLEM IS OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM!!!
> We are too damn lenient. I hated it when some ignorant bastard makes a
> comment like "That Chink thinks he's so smart". It frustrated me and made
me
> so angry back in school. That "Chink" who happened to be Japanese came
from
> the school of hard Knox! He was smarter than most college kids, only
because
> the education system was much tougher in their country, and not because he
> was born a genius. The human brain is so complex and such a phenomenon,
that
> we still don't know how much one can absorb. So in Japan, they threw more
at
> the kids, and what happened... they turned out smarter than our kids.
>
> THINK PEOPLE!
>
> Raymond Thomas
> Lewis Consultants International, Inc.
> 295 Northern Blvd Suite 302
> Great Neck, NY 11021
> (516)498-2300 ext. 103
> (516)498-1749 fax
> (917)444-1334 pager
> Web: http://lewisconsultants.com <http://lewisconsultants.com/>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Curtis Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:49 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
> Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as
the
> left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in this
> country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and
ignorant.
> What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a
> result of "cheap labor".
>
> Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
> difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this
> country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested citizens
> and that does make a difference.
>
> I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying so
> hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
> succeeded in building their companys in India or China.
>
> I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
have
> taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> couldn't support.
>
>
> >From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "

Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[John Kaberna]

Waaa waaa w.  Could you people create your own b!tching list to talk
about this subject.  The vast majority could care less.  I woke up this
morning after 7 hours of sleep and 70 of the 100 messages I had were on this
stupid topic.  It's getting really old deleting everyone's garbage.
Opinions are like @ssholeseveryone has one.  And everyone certainly has
one on this topic but this is not the forum to share your stupid opinion.
Get your own damn list so you can cry and complain to each other and leave
the rest of us that are trying to study and solve problems alone.  Ok?  Got
it?  Good.

John

- Original Message -
From: Foreign Foreign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Curtis Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


> Curtis
>
> Please answer a question for me. Actually two.
> 1) You expect to be given first rights because your ancestors have bled
for
> this country? Have you bled for this country?
> 2) Why did your ancestors come to this country? Is it because they had
> everything in their motherland and chose to give it all up and start all
> over again? If they really did so then, I salute them. If not, I rest my
> case.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:49 PM
> Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
> > Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as
> the
> > left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in
this
> > country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and
> ignorant.
> > What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a
> > result of "cheap labor".
> >
> > Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
> > difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this
> > country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested
citizens
> > and that does make a difference.
> >
> > I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying
so
> > hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
> > succeeded in building their companys in India or China.
> >
> > I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
> have
> > taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> > couldn't support.
> >
> >
> > >From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Wisdom can surely not be bought.
> > >I've never been disappointed by your comments.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20
AM
> > >
> > >Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
> > >Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the
> > >consultants
> > >on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in
your
> > >own
> > >skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
> > >
> > >Here is a very simple FACT:
> > >
> > >There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified
> > >"Americans"
> > >to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed
> > >sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better
qualified
> > >for
> > >the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and
> made
> > >a
> > >"wise", yet unethical, "business decision" to use someone that needed
> > >sponsorship because they CAN and WILL low ball them. An ethical
decision
> > >would be to import talent when there is a shortage, but pay them at
> market
> > >value. The people that 

RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud

[Nadeem Khawaja]

STOP IT 

-Original Message-
From: John Kaberna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 4:20 PM
To: Foreign Foreign; Curtis Phillips
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


Waaa waaa w.  Could you people create your own b!tching list to talk
about this subject.  The vast majority could care less.  I woke up this
morning after 7 hours of sleep and 70 of the 100 messages I had were on this
stupid topic.  It's getting really old deleting everyone's garbage.
Opinions are like @ssholeseveryone has one.  And everyone certainly has
one on this topic but this is not the forum to share your stupid opinion.
Get your own damn list so you can cry and complain to each other and leave
the rest of us that are trying to study and solve problems alone.  Ok?  Got
it?  Good.

John

- Original Message -
From: Foreign Foreign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Curtis Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud


> Curtis
>
> Please answer a question for me. Actually two.
> 1) You expect to be given first rights because your ancestors have bled
for
> this country? Have you bled for this country?
> 2) Why did your ancestors come to this country? Is it because they had
> everything in their motherland and chose to give it all up and start all
> over again? If they really did so then, I salute them. If not, I rest my
> case.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Curtis Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:49 PM
> Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
>
>
> > Well, I guess the arguments of the pro-H1B people are as predictable as
> the
> > left-leaning, politically correct arguments of so many people here in
this
> > country. Everyone who opposes them is fearful, closed-minded, and
> ignorant.
> > What is being said is that wages, in general are being watered down as a
> > result of "cheap labor".
> >
> > Yeah, we are all imigrants or decendants of imigramts... maybe the
> > difference is that our fathers and grandfathers have bled to defend this
> > country. Whether you like it or not we are generationally-vested
citizens
> > and that does make a difference.
> >
> > I find it reprehensible that companys like Microsoft should be lobbying
so
> > hard for increased visas. I wonder whether they think they could have
> > succeeded in building their companys in India or China.
> >
> > I am having a hard time understanding why so many people from elsewhere
> have
> > taken the time to become educated in an area that their own economies
> > couldn't support.
> >
> >
> > >From: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: "Babashola Madariola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:05:39 +0100
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Wisdom can surely not be bought.
> > >I've never been disappointed by your comments.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 09/12/2000 09:12:20
AM
> > >
> > >Please respond to "Raymond Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >To:   "Jobs@Groupstudy. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >cc:(bcc: Babashola Madariola/C/Africa/Mobil-Notes)
> > >Subject:  RE: The H1-B Visa Program is a fraud
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Let's close the book on H1 professionals. Why are so many of the
> > >consultants
> > >on this board threatened by them? Do you not have any confidence in
your
> > >own
> > >skill-sets to keep your job or beat the other to a new one?
> > >
> > >Here is a very simple FACT:
> > >
> > >There are more available jobs in the US than there are qualified
> > >"Americans"
> > >to fill them. If you were beaten to a job by someone that needed
> > >sponsorship, there's an 85% chance that he/she was just better
qualified
> > >for
> > >the position. The 15% was because the company couldn't afford you and
> made
> > >a
> > >"wise", yet unethical, "b

Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.(enough)

[NeoLink2000]

Group,
   Can we get off this weak @ss topic already. This is clearly a 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] subject and I know this because I remember when it came 
up in there 4 months ago. We get enough technical e-mails in our mail 
everyday. Why give us more junk to sift through. Sorry if I sound rude but 
I'm just being real. 

Mark Zabludovsky ~ CCNA, CCDA, 1/4-NP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a 
thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved."
  
  ~William Jennings Bryan~

**NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html
_
UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html
FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com
Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fwd: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Syed Faisal Ashraf]

I totally agree with Jerome and would like to add
something to it.

I remember a day when one of the gas station in the
town reduced the gas price from $1.35 to $0.59. There
was a mad rush at that gas station since everyone
wanted to get the cheap gas.

If you were an owner of a nearby gas station, I bet
you would be furious to see all your customer lining
up at another gas station. 

Now tell me who would you blame, the gas station owner
who reduced the price of gasoline or the people who
are lining up at his gas station? I see analogy of
this scenerio with US Government giving out H1-B
visas.

Now H1-B is an invention of companies like Microsoft
and others who love cheap labour. And then of course
it has blessings of majority of leaders in Washington.
So if foreigners are taking advantage of this who is
to blame, the people who are seeking H1-B or who are
giving it. I'd say it US government one should blame
and not the H1-B seekers.

On top of that I know that H1-B in nothing more than
an elegant form of slave labour where an employee has
absolutely no right what so ever and companies exploit
them to the max.

So as Jerome said what gets you a job is your skills
and how you market it. So lets end this useless
conversation here and talk about something more
productive like how to study to achieve cisco 
certifications.

--- JEROME OKOLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "JEROME OKOLO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:21:24 GMT
> Reply-to: "JEROME OKOLO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> It's amazing how certain people assume that they are
> the only ones who have 
> foreigners employed in their country. There are many
> good jobs from where i 
> come from that are being done by expatriates. Even
> though there is no 
> shortage of qualified citizens. Get over it guys and
> realize that what gets 
> you a job is your intelligence and your skills, not
> some accident of birth.
> 
> 
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,     
>   Sam Adams 
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'Dick Silva'"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:08:18 -0400
> >
> >/
> >And while they have your job, ie, you're not
> working, your family is 
> >hungry,
> >what is your point?
> >\
> >
> >
> >
> >Quoting "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > > Hey just remember they are willing to take the
> pay cut to get 
> >citizenship.
> > > Also, 50,000 grand is like 1 millions over there
> so I have been told by 
> >a
> > > Consultant from India.   They come here take
> away american jobs and  
> >make
> > > there nest egg and go back as kings.
> > > Just my two cents, Oh and I am not racist I
> would feel the same if it 
> >were
> > > someone form Germany as well.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > > Sam Adams
> > > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:12 PM
> > > To: 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't know what controls are in place to
> enforce the law.  But I would
> > > think that someone tooting his horn about cheap
> foreign workers is 
> >asking
> > > for trouble.  Perhaps, you should show the
> article to the INS or the
> > > appropriate agency to put these guys out of
> business.  Not only are they
> > > exploiting the system and the American people
> but exploiting the foreign
> > > workers as well.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Dick Silva [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:43 PM
> > > To: Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> > >
> > >
> > > /
> > > H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it
> is federal law.
> > >
> > > In Clearwater, FL there is a company that
> recruits only H-1Bs from other
> > > countries.
> > > One of their salesman was being interviewed by
> the local newspap

RE: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.

[Lopez, Robert]

ditto!!



-Original Message-
From: Syed Faisal Ashraf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:08 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Fwd: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.


I totally agree with Jerome and would like to add
something to it.

I remember a day when one of the gas station in the
town reduced the gas price from $1.35 to $0.59. There
was a mad rush at that gas station since everyone
wanted to get the cheap gas.

If you were an owner of a nearby gas station, I bet
you would be furious to see all your customer lining
up at another gas station. 

Now tell me who would you blame, the gas station owner
who reduced the price of gasoline or the people who
are lining up at his gas station? I see analogy of
this scenerio with US Government giving out H1-B
visas.

Now H1-B is an invention of companies like Microsoft
and others who love cheap labour. And then of course
it has blessings of majority of leaders in Washington.
So if foreigners are taking advantage of this who is
to blame, the people who are seeking H1-B or who are
giving it. I'd say it US government one should blame
and not the H1-B seekers.

On top of that I know that H1-B in nothing more than
an elegant form of slave labour where an employee has
absolutely no right what so ever and companies exploit
them to the max.

So as Jerome said what gets you a job is your skills
and how you market it. So lets end this useless
conversation here and talk about something more
productive like how to study to achieve cisco 
certifications.

--- JEROME OKOLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "JEROME OKOLO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:21:24 GMT
> Reply-to: "JEROME OKOLO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> It's amazing how certain people assume that they are
> the only ones who have 
> foreigners employed in their country. There are many
> good jobs from where i 
> come from that are being done by expatriates. Even
> though there is no 
> shortage of qualified citizens. Get over it guys and
> realize that what gets 
> you a job is your intelligence and your skills, not
> some accident of birth.
> 
> 
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,     
>   Sam Adams 
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'Dick Silva'"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:08:18 -0400
> >
> >/
> >And while they have your job, ie, you're not
> working, your family is 
> >hungry,
> >what is your point?
> >\
> >
> >
> >
> >Quoting "Matt C. Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > > Hey just remember they are willing to take the
> pay cut to get 
> >citizenship.
> > > Also, 50,000 grand is like 1 millions over there
> so I have been told by 
> >a
> > > Consultant from India.   They come here take
> away american jobs and  
> >make
> > > there nest egg and go back as kings.
> > > Just my two cents, Oh and I am not racist I
> would feel the same if it 
> >were
> > > someone form Germany as well.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > > Sam Adams
> > > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:12 PM
> > > To: 'Dick Silva'; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't know what controls are in place to
> enforce the law.  But I would
> > > think that someone tooting his horn about cheap
> foreign workers is 
> >asking
> > > for trouble.  Perhaps, you should show the
> article to the INS or the
> > > appropriate agency to put these guys out of
> business.  Not only are they
> > > exploiting the system and the American people
> but exploiting the foreign
> > > workers as well.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Dick Silva [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:43 PM
> > > To: Sam Adams; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: The H1-B visa program is a fraud.
> > >
> > >
> > > /
> > > H-1Bs are not paid at market rate even though it
> is federal law.
> &