Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Hello Tom -- and et al Now that the crush of the holidays are ebbing I can try and focus on some email responses which are past due. Tom, I didn't intend by my original response to negate any specific professor/trainer/teacher. I simply cited my own personal experience that I found successful in teaching. Perhaps it was because I was trained in a rigid catholic elementary school. But I have found that reps and continued reps tend to reinforce tasks to the brain that a one-time only exhibition (which is usually undertaken once because of time constraints) fails to ensure a student truly understands. For myself, I learned the multiplication tables standing in the aisles with my classmates and loudly reciting (and re-reciting) many times 1x1=1, 1x2=2, etc. until it was permanently stamped on my brain. I have transferred (for better or worse) those teaching traits to my own teaching along with personal -- one-on-one sessions. The personal sessions I have utilized to give a student confidence and to allow for each student to ask questions that he/she would otherwise be reluctant to raise in front of their peers -- for whatever reason. Also, these sessions allow me to drive home the various concepts I have been teaching and to ensure -- as much as humanly possible -- that each of my students has a firm grasp on these concepts. I have always believed that it was my responsibility as a teacher to ensure that my methods were successful for each of my students. On the other hand, I don't sugggest that a teacher is shirking their duties by not doing this. Rather, I consider it my personal responsibility. Anyway, enuf ( I always wanted to spell it that way -- God Bless you Sr. Victoria!!! ) preaching. Just, a further explanation of my own .02!! Have a great New Year to you Tom (and your family) and to everyone else who may want to waste time reading this thread Greg Macaulay (Almost) Oldest CCNP/CCDP on Earth Lifetime AARP member Retired Attorney/Law Professor - Original Message - From: Tom Lisa To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 2:45 AM Subject: Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212] Greg, You may not be aware, but many, if not all, academies allow the student a retake if they fail the Skills Based Assessment (practical exam in plain english -- just put that in since you're a lawyer) the first time. Every area tasked in the practical is covered at least once in a lab experiment during the semester. The 60% failure rate I had indicated was for the first try. Final pass rate was 90%. I don't think this is an unacceptable failure rate for CCNP level students. BTW, I am reminded, from my days as a consultant for law office management systems, that there isn't anything brief about a legal brief. Happy Holidays All, Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy (Still Pres., Groupstudy Old Geezers Club) Greg Macaulay wrote: I'd like to inject my own .02 here -- for what it's worth. I am a retired law professor -- having taught law students, lawyers and even judges over the years! One of my pet peeves during my career was the inability of students (on whatever level) to effectively communicate both orally and with the written word. For a number of years I taught in Ireland, England and Australia where there was only one examination per year in each subject. This meant that a student's entire grade for an entire year rested on their performance in a single written examination. Since I had come from an American academic background, where there are finals each semester (rather than annually) and mid-terms, term papers, class performance, etc. I was a bit shocked at this different academic system. So, in an effort to both deal with my pet peeve, and ensure that my students would be able to effectively communicate their knowledge on a final examination, I instituted a process whereby I gave students, short papers to write every two weeks and reviewed them individually with each student. Also, I gave continuous mock examinations to teach students to communicate under pressure. None of this admittedly was for credit. Everything still depended on a student's performance on their final examination. However, by aggressively pushing students to master written communications during the academic year, I hopefully ensured that they maximized their chances of passing -- and with a good grade. In fact, though I never -- never mentioned it to any student -- I never failed any student who showed up for my final examination. I knew that their efforts in dealing with the persistent intense pressure to write during the year, and answer my searching cross-examinations of their substantive knowledge far surpassed anything they might produce during a 3 or 4 hour written examination in June. However, this only became an issue with border
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Greg, et al, I agree that repetition is the way to rote memorization, if not understanding. Unfortunately, we do have time constraints and must move on each day. That said, there is a certain degree of repetition in that many succeeding labs contain portions of previous labs. At the CCNP level we assume a certain degree of motivation and seriousness of purpose on the part of the student. We provide open lab time for them to practice. Also, we hope to soon be implementing a web based simulator that will allow students to practice at home. I am afraid though, that some students equate the academy program to a Cisco approved brain-dump and aren't prepared to put in the hours out of class that are required. Now matter how forcefully I tell them at the beginning, they still don't come into class properly prepared. I'm sure you have had the same experience with your students (those would be the ones ending up as slipfall specialists, right?). :) Best Holiday Wishes to You and Yours, Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy P.S. I don't consider reading your posts a waste of time. Greg Macaulay wrote: Hello Tom -- and et al Now that the crush of the holidays are ebbing I can try and focus on some email responses which are past due. Tom, I didn't intend by my original response to negate any specific professor/trainer/teacher. I simply cited my own personal experience that I found successful in teaching. Perhaps it was because I was trained in a rigid catholic elementary school. But I have found that reps and continued reps tend to reinforce tasks to the brain that a one-time only exhibition (which is usually undertaken once because of time constraints) fails to ensure a student truly understands. For myself, I learned the multiplication tables standing in the aisles with my classmates and loudly reciting (and re-reciting) many times 1x1=1, 1x2=2, etc. until it was permanently stamped on my brain. I have transferred (for better or worse) those teaching traits to my own teaching along with personal -- one-on-one sessions. The personal sessions I have utilized to give a student confidence and to allow for each student to ask questions that he/she would otherwise be reluctant to raise in front of their peers -- for whatever reason. Also, these sessions allow me to drive home the various concepts I have been teaching and to ensure -- as much as humanly possible -- that each of my students has a firm grasp on these concepts. I have always believed that it was my responsibility as a teacher to ensure that my methods were successful for each of my students. On the other hand, I don't sugggest that a teacher is shirking their duties by not doing this. Rather, I consider it my personal responsibility. Anyway, enuf ( I always wanted to spell it that way -- God Bless you Sr. Victoria!!! ) preaching. Just, a further explanation of my own .02!! Have a great New Year to you Tom (and your family) and to everyone else who may want to waste time reading this thread Greg Macaulay (Almost) Oldest CCNP/CCDP on Earth Lifetime AARP member Retired Attorney/Law Professor - Original Message - From: Tom Lisa To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 2:45 AM Subject: Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212] Greg, You may not be aware, but many, if not all, academies allow the student a retake if they fail the Skills Based Assessment (practical exam in plain english -- just put that in since you're a lawyer) the first time. Every area tasked in the practical is covered at least once in a lab experiment during the semester. The 60% failure rate I had indicated was for the first try. Final pass rate was 90%. I don't think this is an unacceptable failure rate for CCNP level students. BTW, I am reminded, from my days as a consultant for law office management systems, that there isn't anything brief about a legal brief. Happy Holidays All, Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy (Still Pres., Groupstudy Old Geezers Club) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=30288t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
I'd like to inject my own .02 here -- for what it's worth. I am a retired law professor -- having taught law students, lawyers and even judges over the years! One of my pet peeves during my career was the inability of students (on whatever level) to effectively communicate both orally and with the written word. For a number of years I taught in Ireland, England and Australia where there was only one examination per year in each subject. This meant that a student's entire grade for an entire year rested on their performance in a single written examination. Since I had come from an American academic background, where there are finals each semester (rather than annually) and mid-terms, term papers, class performance, etc. I was a bit shocked at this different academic system. So, in an effort to both deal with my pet peeve, and ensure that my students would be able to effectively communicate their knowledge on a final examination, I instituted a process whereby I gave students, short papers to write every two weeks and reviewed them individually with each student. Also, I gave continuous mock examinations to teach students to communicate under pressure. None of this admittedly was for credit. Everything still depended on a student's performance on their final examination. However, by aggressively pushing students to master written communications during the academic year, I hopefully ensured that they maximized their chances of passing -- and with a good grade. In fact, though I never -- never mentioned it to any student -- I never failed any student who showed up for my final examination. I knew that their efforts in dealing with the persistent intense pressure to write during the year, and answer my searching cross-examinations of their substantive knowledge far surpassed anything they might produce during a 3 or 4 hour written examination in June. However, this only became an issue with border-line examination scores, as most students passed with sufficiently high-grades. In those instances where a few students who had undergone the year-long writing process performed badly or inadequately on the final examination, I was always able to give them the benefit of the doubt -- as I knew their true abilities from observing their efforts during the academic year. Oftentimes, too many external factors, such as a suddent loss of memory, physical ailments, fear, stress or other similar factors negatively effect a student's performance on a final examination. My process was a stopgap to ensure that those factors were either minimized or negated entirely. Only those few who failed to attend class, either at all or sporadically during the year were not given the benefit of the doubt in borderline cases. Everyone else was given this benefit. I mention this -- long-windedly (as I am an attorney) -- because it seems that there may have been a breakdown in the testing process here. A teacher's responsibility -- especially in a hands-on environment as here -- is to drum this information into students' heads -- during the acadmeic year -- to the point that student's know and understand the information without any effort. The lab hands-on should not be a means of eliminating students, but to ratify that the teacher has effectively communicated the information to students during the academic year. If ALL or MOST students fail such an examination, it is a strong sign that the teacher has failed his/her responsbilities to the students. I guess I could go on, but I'll wait and see what flames this message brings! To all, Have a Happy and Joyous Holiday! Greg Macaulay (Almost) Oldest CCNP/CCDP on Earth Lifetime AARP member Retired Attorney/Law Professor - Original Message - From: Tom Lisa To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 5:59 PM Subject: Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212] Although I would prefer that all my students passed on the first try, you are correct in your assessment. Unfortunately, having passed the CCNA exam does not guarantee success at the CCNP level. I have stated before that I like to compare the Cisco certs to the Crafts skills designators. I consider the CCNA an apprentice, the CCNP journeyman, and CCIE master craftsman level of expertise. Not all apprentices make it to the journeyman level and very few journeymen ascend to the Master craftsman level. Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Brian Whalen wrote: I really don't agree that everyone should pass, tho perhaps that was a wisecrack I didn't see. Inevitably in any class some students try and some don't. If everyone fails then yes perhaps that is a problem, but given the material difficulty, I would expect a substantial failure rate. Brian Sonic Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tom Lisa wrote: I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
That's par for the course. When they first deployed the CCNA curriculum it was ugly, inaccurate, and ambiguous, and it read like stereo instructions... not to mention the first version of the textbooks for the class, which weren't even useful as doorstops (I checked; they were too thin to wedge under the door, and they didn't have enough weight to hold the door open on their own) No curriculum is going to be 100% error-free and self-explanatory. That's why we instructors still have jobs. Hal Logan Network Specialist / Adjunct Faculty Computing and Engineering Technology Manatee Community College -Original Message- From: Jeff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212] I saw the Solaris cert project when netacad had just posted the beta for academys to review, and I took a recheck again recently. I honestly believe they could have done a much better job with it. I noticed alot of the info was either incorrect, half right, or ass-backwards. It's sort of like the web design cert. Someone here please tell me why a Cisco network engineer needs a certification of good practices with Adobe GoLive? I can understand trying to broaden your horizons, but the solaris cert and the adobe cert just were not at all up to the academys normal standards. -jeff On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Patricia Leeb-Hart wrote: Thanks, Brian, for the sound advice. I've just finished Semester 4 (though I got my CCNA a couple of months ago) and look forward to Sem. 5. As I've stated before, I'm going the Academy route for cost reasons, hands-on with an extensive lab but also to benefit from the interaction between other students. They range in experience from an experienced network consultant through guys and gals just a couple of years out of high school to people making a mid-life career switch. One thing I will add to your post is to stick with it, practice, practice, practice, do as much labwork as you can. If possible, work with xNIX -- the Academy program is expanding to include a Solaris cert which I'm very excited about. This will get you comfortable with CLI, scripting, and networking concepts like DNS zones, DHCP, routing daemons, mail daemons, processes, debugging and generally finding your way around a network.. Remember that a router is basically a dedicated computer. The broader the networking-related knowledge, the better. From my experience, employers don't necessarily want someone whose skills are too tightly focussed on one platform, not to mention that you won't be as effective in troubleshooting if all you know is the Cisco Way. And one last thing -- this is exciting stuff. It can be fun. Love the technology, people. (it won't love you back, but it makes your job a lot more enjoyable ) brian hall 12/17/2001 7:48:19 PM --minor snip-- I wanted it to be more of a heads up to all who are about to take on sem5 FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29808t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
in reply to Mr Macaulay's post: I've had the same instructor throughout the 5 sems of cisco acad I've taken. He's been here and pushed us as hard as we could go and been a damned good instructor. Even with that, over half of our class failed our practical final in sem 5. I think More responsibility needs to be put on the students for their own failures. I had a hell of a school schedule, and an even worse work schedule during the sem 5 class, and it showed. You get out of it, what you put into it. and for those students failing the practical, it was lack of preparation... I'd take the blame for that before I'd pin it on my instructor. -jon kintner Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29836t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Greg, You may not be aware, but many, if not all, academies allow the student a retake if they fail the Skills Based Assessment (practical exam in plain english -- just put that in since you're a lawyer) the first time. Every area tasked in the practical is covered at least once in a lab experiment during the semester. The 60% failure rate I had indicated was for the first try. Final pass rate was 90%. I don't think this is an unacceptable failure rate for CCNP level students. BTW, I am reminded, from my days as a consultant for law office management systems, that there isn't anything brief about a legal brief. Happy Holidays All, Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy (Still Pres., Groupstudy Old Geezers Club) Greg Macaulay wrote: I'd like to inject my own .02 here -- for what it's worth. I am a retired law professor -- having taught law students, lawyers and even judges over the years! One of my pet peeves during my career was the inability of students (on whatever level) to effectively communicate both orally and with the written word. For a number of years I taught in Ireland, England and Australia where there was only one examination per year in each subject. This meant that a student's entire grade for an entire year rested on their performance in a single written examination. Since I had come from an American academic background, where there are finals each semester (rather than annually) and mid-terms, term papers, class performance, etc. I was a bit shocked at this different academic system. So, in an effort to both deal with my pet peeve, and ensure that my students would be able to effectively communicate their knowledge on a final examination, I instituted a process whereby I gave students, short papers to write every two weeks and reviewed them individually with each student. Also, I gave continuous mock examinations to teach students to communicate under pressure. None of this admittedly was for credit. Everything still depended on a student's performance on their final examination. However, by aggressively pushing students to master written communications during the academic year, I hopefully ensured that they maximized their chances of passing -- and with a good grade. In fact, though I never -- never mentioned it to any student -- I never failed any student who showed up for my final examination. I knew that their efforts in dealing with the persistent intense pressure to write during the year, and answer my searching cross-examinations of their substantive knowledge far surpassed anything they might produce during a 3 or 4 hour written examination in June. However, this only became an issue with border-line examination scores, as most students passed with sufficiently high-grades. In those instances where a few students who had undergone the year-long writing process performed badly or inadequately on the final examination, I was always able to give them the benefit of the doubt -- as I knew their true abilities from observing their efforts during the academic year. Oftentimes, too many external factors, such as a suddent loss of memory, physical ailments, fear, stress or other similar factors negatively effect a student's performance on a final examination. My process was a stopgap to ensure that those factors were either minimized or negated entirely. Only those few who failed to attend class, either at all or sporadically during the year were not given the benefit of the doubt in borderline cases. Everyone else was given this benefit. I mention this -- long-windedly (as I am an attorney) -- because it seems that there may have been a breakdown in the testing process here. A teacher's responsibility -- especially in a hands-on environment as here -- is to drum this information into students' heads -- during the acadmeic year -- to the point that student's know and understand the information without any effort. The lab hands-on should not be a means of eliminating students, but to ratify that the teacher has effectively communicated the information to students during the academic year. If ALL or MOST students fail such an examination, it is a strong sign that the teacher has failed his/her responsbilities to the students. I guess I could go on, but I'll wait and see what flames this message brings! To all, Have a Happy and Joyous Holiday! Greg Macaulay (Almost) Oldest CCNP/CCDP on Earth Lifetime AARP member Retired Attorney/Law Professor - Original Message - From: Tom Lisa To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 5:59 PM Subject: Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212] Although I would prefer that all my students passed on the first try, you are correct in your assessment. Unfortunately, having passed the CCNA exam does not guarantee success at the CCNP level. I have stated before that I like to compare
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
All right Jon, your check will be in the mail tomorrow. :) Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy jon kintner wrote: in reply to Mr Macaulay's post: I've had the same instructor throughout the 5 sems of cisco acad I've taken. He's been here and pushed us as hard as we could go and been a damned good instructor. Even with that, over half of our class failed our practical final in sem 5. I think More responsibility needs to be put on the students for their own failures. I had a hell of a school schedule, and an even worse work schedule during the sem 5 class, and it showed. You get out of it, what you put into it. and for those students failing the practical, it was lack of preparation... I'd take the blame for that before I'd pin it on my instructor. -jon kintner Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29861t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Thanks, Brian, for the sound advice. I've just finished Semester 4 (though I got my CCNA a couple of months ago) and look forward to Sem. 5. As I've stated before, I'm going the Academy route for cost reasons, hands-on with an extensive lab but also to benefit from the interaction between other students. They range in experience from an experienced network consultant through guys and gals just a couple of years out of high school to people making a mid-life career switch. One thing I will add to your post is to stick with it, practice, practice, practice, do as much labwork as you can. If possible, work with xNIX -- the Academy program is expanding to include a Solaris cert which I'm very excited about. This will get you comfortable with CLI, scripting, and networking concepts like DNS zones, DHCP, routing daemons, mail daemons, processes, debugging and generally finding your way around a network.. Remember that a router is basically a dedicated computer. The broader the networking-related knowledge, the better. From my experience, employers don't necessarily want someone whose skills are too tightly focussed on one platform, not to mention that you won't be as effective in troubleshooting if all you know is the Cisco Way. And one last thing -- this is exciting stuff. It can be fun. Love the technology, people. (it won't love you back, but it makes your job a lot more enjoyable ) brian hall 12/17/2001 7:48:19 PM --minor snip-- I wanted it to be more of a heads up to all who are about to take on sem5 . Don't think of advance routing as a course to run through just to reach a designation of ccnp and hopefully ccie. It cant work for you that way. I bit off more than I can chew by spreading myself too thin . That will be remedied. They are good skills to master and will benefit for the obvious reasons. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29506t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Patricia, I must disagree on one small point. I just purchased a very lovely 805 router with a wonderful personality. Immediately after unpacking it I felt a close bond developing between us. I am sure it will return my affection.:) Happy Holidays Everyone, Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Patricia Leeb-Hart wrote: Thanks, Brian, for the sound advice. I've just finished Semester 4 (though I got my CCNA a couple of months ago) and look forward to Sem. 5. As I've stated before, I'm going the Academy route for cost reasons, hands-on with an extensive lab but also to benefit from the interaction between other students. They range in experience from an experienced network consultant through guys and gals just a couple of years out of high school to people making a mid-life career switch. One thing I will add to your post is to stick with it, practice, practice, practice, do as much labwork as you can. If possible, work with xNIX -- the Academy program is expanding to include a Solaris cert which I'm very excited about. This will get you comfortable with CLI, scripting, and networking concepts like DNS zones, DHCP, routing daemons, mail daemons, processes, debugging and generally finding your way around a network.. Remember that a router is basically a dedicated computer. The broader the networking-related knowledge, the better. From my experience, employers don't necessarily want someone whose skills are too tightly focussed on one platform, not to mention that you won't be as effective in troubleshooting if all you know is the Cisco Way. And one last thing -- this is exciting stuff. It can be fun. Love the technology, people. (it won't love you back, but it makes your job a lot more enjoyable ) brian hall 12/17/2001 7:48:19 PM --minor snip-- I wanted it to be more of a heads up to all who are about to take on sem5 FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
I saw the Solaris cert project when netacad had just posted the beta for academys to review, and I took a recheck again recently. I honestly believe they could have done a much better job with it. I noticed alot of the info was either incorrect, half right, or ass-backwards. It's sort of like the web design cert. Someone here please tell me why a Cisco network engineer needs a certification of good practices with Adobe GoLive? I can understand trying to broaden your horizons, but the solaris cert and the adobe cert just were not at all up to the academys normal standards. -jeff On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Patricia Leeb-Hart wrote: Thanks, Brian, for the sound advice. I've just finished Semester 4 (though I got my CCNA a couple of months ago) and look forward to Sem. 5. As I've stated before, I'm going the Academy route for cost reasons, hands-on with an extensive lab but also to benefit from the interaction between other students. They range in experience from an experienced network consultant through guys and gals just a couple of years out of high school to people making a mid-life career switch. One thing I will add to your post is to stick with it, practice, practice, practice, do as much labwork as you can. If possible, work with xNIX -- the Academy program is expanding to include a Solaris cert which I'm very excited about. This will get you comfortable with CLI, scripting, and networking concepts like DNS zones, DHCP, routing daemons, mail daemons, processes, debugging and generally finding your way around a network.. Remember that a router is basically a dedicated computer. The broader the networking-related knowledge, the better. From my experience, employers don't necessarily want someone whose skills are too tightly focussed on one platform, not to mention that you won't be as effective in troubleshooting if all you know is the Cisco Way. And one last thing -- this is exciting stuff. It can be fun. Love the technology, people. (it won't love you back, but it makes your job a lot more enjoyable ) brian hall 12/17/2001 7:48:19 PM --minor snip-- I wanted it to be more of a heads up to all who are about to take on sem5 FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Network people are scary sometimes :) -jeff On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Tom Lisa wrote: Patricia, I must disagree on one small point. I just purchased a very lovely 805 router with a wonderful personality. Immediately after unpacking it I felt a close bond developing between us. I am sure it will return my affection.:) Happy Holidays Everyone, Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Patricia Leeb-Hart wrote: Thanks, Brian, for the sound advice. I've just finished Semester 4 (though I got my CCNA a couple of months ago) and look forward to Sem. 5. As I've stated before, I'm going the Academy route for cost reasons, hands-on with an extensive lab but also to benefit from the interaction between other students. They range in experience from an experienced network consultant through guys and gals just a couple of years out of high school to people making a mid-life career switch. One thing I will add to your post is to stick with it, practice, practice, practice, do as much labwork as you can. If possible, work with xNIX -- the Academy program is expanding to include a Solaris cert which I'm very excited about. This will get you comfortable with CLI, scripting, and networking concepts like DNS zones, DHCP, routing daemons, mail daemons, processes, debugging and generally finding your way around a network.. Remember that a router is basically a dedicated computer. The broader the networking-related knowledge, the better. From my experience, employers don't necessarily want someone whose skills are too tightly focussed on one platform, not to mention that you won't be as effective in troubleshooting if all you know is the Cisco Way. And one last thing -- this is exciting stuff. It can be fun. Love the technology, people. (it won't love you back, but it makes your job a lot more enjoyable ) brian hall 12/17/2001 7:48:19 PM --minor snip-- I wanted it to be more of a heads up to all who are about to take on sem5 FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29546t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
AwwwI'm happy for you, Tom. May it be a lasting, joyful relationship :-D Tom Lisa 12/18/2001 2:06:08 PM Patricia, I must disagree on one small point. I just purchased a very lovely 805 router with a wonderful personality. Immediately after unpacking it I felt a close bond developing between us. I am sure it will return my affection.:) Happy Holidays Everyone, Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Patricia Leeb-Hart wrote: Thanks, Brian, for the sound advice. I've just finished Semester 4 (though I got my CCNA a couple of months ago) and look forward to Sem. 5. As I've stated before, I'm going the Academy route for cost reasons, hands-on with an extensive lab but also to benefit from the interaction between other students. They range in experience from an experienced network consultant through guys and gals just a couple of years out of high school to people making a mid-life career switch. One thing I will add to your post is to stick with it, practice, practice, practice, do as much labwork as you can. If possible, work with xNIX -- the Academy program is expanding to include a Solaris cert which I'm very excited about. This will get you comfortable with CLI, scripting, and networking concepts like DNS zones, DHCP, routing daemons, mail daemons, processes, debugging and generally finding your way around a network.. Remember that a router is basically a dedicated computer. The broader the networking-related knowledge, the better. From my experience, employers don't necessarily want someone whose skills are too tightly focussed on one platform, not to mention that you won't be as effective in troubleshooting if all you know is the Cisco Way. And one last thing -- this is exciting stuff. It can be fun. Love the technology, people. (it won't love you back, but it makes your job a lot more enjoyable ) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29560t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Hmmm, Jeff, sorry to hear you're disappointment. I won't be able to make a judgement yet myself; sounds like you have much more Unix experience than I do (which is mainly shell scripting and basic user administration). From what I've seen it's extremely basic but it'll be useful for students who've never been in front of an xNIX box, and I've no doubt it'll expand as well. And it covers an area I'm weak in, printing. As far as the GoLive goes, no idea why that's in there. Only thing I can think of is that the Academy curriculum will eventually tie together WAN and Web administration training. Jeff 12/18/2001 2:32:40 PM I saw the Solaris cert project when netacad had just posted the beta for academys to review, and I took a recheck again recently. I honestly believe they could have done a much better job with it. I noticed alot of the info was either incorrect, half right, or ass-backwards. It's sort of like the web design cert. Someone here please tell me why a Cisco network engineer needs a certification of good practices with Adobe GoLive? I can understand trying to broaden your horizons, but the solaris cert and the adobe cert just were not at all up to the academys normal standards. -jeff Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29567t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
I didn't take offense, Priscilla. BTW, we now have a ver. 2 of the BCRAN course (haven't had a chance to review it yet -- another Winter Break project) and hopefully the new skills based final will be less stressful. Part of the problem with the first one was more with the ambiguous instructions rather than the knowledge level required. Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: I wasn't criticizing the teacher. I just wanted to make that clear. ;-) Designing a final exam that everyone fails just seems like a poor method of eduction. We learned to do the opposite in the education classes I took recently. I realize that the design is Cisco's, not the Academy instructor's. Priscilla At 03:13 PM 12/14/01, you wrote: I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29413t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Oh, I don't know; maybe they might be trying to take the paper aspect out of the cert you're studying to get? Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Doug wrote: Well, I am taking my test in Aurora, CO. We will have 2.5 hrs and no group...one shot...wonderful, huh! Wonder how they come up with this final? Doug Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29414t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Although I would prefer that all my students passed on the first try, you are correct in your assessment. Unfortunately, having passed the CCNA exam does not guarantee success at the CCNP level. I have stated before that I like to compare the Cisco certs to the Crafts skills designators. I consider the CCNA an apprentice, the CCNP journeyman, and CCIE master craftsman level of expertise. Not all apprentices make it to the journeyman level and very few journeymen ascend to the Master craftsman level. Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Brian Whalen wrote: I really don't agree that everyone should pass, tho perhaps that was a wisecrack I didn't see. Inevitably in any class some students try and some don't. If everyone fails then yes perhaps that is a problem, but given the material difficulty, I would expect a substantial failure rate. Brian Sonic Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tom Lisa wrote: I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29418t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Priscilla, Every component of the skills based exam is seen by the students during the semester. The academic portion is presented, and then one or more labs on that area are given. This volume of labs done during the semester, nearly 60, may also contribute to the problem. Version 2 of the curriculum combines and reduces the number of lab assignments. Time will tell whether this is good or bad. In addition to my previous comment regarding clarity of the instructions, perhaps we are requiring too much in the time allotted. BTW, my students get to use any handwritten notes they have during the exam. Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It wasn't a wisecrack, but it wasn't very well stated. The final exam should be a summary of what was taught and practiced in class. It shouldn't contain surprises or new materials or test new skills that weren't developed in the course. The course developer's goal should be that everyone passes. Everyone passing means the course worked. That doesn't mean that everyone will. In this particular example, I would imagine that to pass, a student has to spend a lot of time practicing. Ensuring that is outside the course developer's control. On the other hand, the course developer could incorporate lots of labs, practice tests, etc., into the materials. It sounds to me like the interim tests were multiple choice and the final was hands-on. That's broken. Priscilla At 05:42 PM 12/16/01, Brian Whalen wrote: I really don't agree that everyone should pass, tho perhaps that was a wisecrack I didn't see. Inevitably in any class some students try and some don't. If everyone fails then yes perhaps that is a problem, but given the material difficulty, I would expect a substantial failure rate. Brian Sonic Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tom Lisa wrote: I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
looks like my message is moving further into the archives. But a hot subject nontheless. I wanted it to be more of a heads up to all who are about to take on sem5 . Don't think of advance routing as a course to run through just to reach a designation of ccnp and hopefully ccie. It cant work for you that way. I bit off more than I can chew by spreading myself too thin . That will be remedied. They are good skills to master and will benefit for the obvious reasons. Sounds like Prof. lisa knows what up and will but quality as well quantity of students out in the field. Thanks!for everyones input!! Brian, Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29447t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
looks like my message is moving further into the archives. But a hot subject nontheless. I wanted it to be more of a heads up to all who are about to take on sem5 . Don't think of advance routing as a course to run through just to reach a designation of ccnp and hopefully ccie. It cant work for you that way. I bit off more than I can chew by spreading myself too thin . That will be remedied. They are good skills to master and will benefit for the obvious reasons. Sounds like Prof. lisa knows what up and will but quality as well quantity of students out in the field. Thanks!for everyones input!! Brian, Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29448t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
I really don't agree that everyone should pass, tho perhaps that was a wisecrack I didn't see. Inevitably in any class some students try and some don't. If everyone fails then yes perhaps that is a problem, but given the material difficulty, I would expect a substantial failure rate. Brian Sonic Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tom Lisa wrote: I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29355t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Usually you're given a preview of the Hands-On topology with minimal info and without full details though. The key to passing is more practice! I simulate the the hands-on and provide my own scenario details and configure/run it in the lab. At Southwestern College, Chula Vista, CA, a Cisco Academy Regional Center passing rate is 50% for Sem5/6. You still have a second chance but will lose 100 points toward your grade. Fredl Azares On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:42:24 -0500 Brian Whalen writes: I really don't agree that everyone should pass, tho perhaps that was a wisecrack I didn't see. Inevitably in any class some students try and some don't. If everyone fails then yes perhaps that is a problem, but given the material difficulty, I would expect a substantial failure rate. Brian Sonic Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tom Lisa wrote: I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29357t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
It wasn't a wisecrack, but it wasn't very well stated. The final exam should be a summary of what was taught and practiced in class. It shouldn't contain surprises or new materials or test new skills that weren't developed in the course. The course developer's goal should be that everyone passes. Everyone passing means the course worked. That doesn't mean that everyone will. In this particular example, I would imagine that to pass, a student has to spend a lot of time practicing. Ensuring that is outside the course developer's control. On the other hand, the course developer could incorporate lots of labs, practice tests, etc., into the materials. It sounds to me like the interim tests were multiple choice and the final was hands-on. That's broken. Priscilla At 05:42 PM 12/16/01, Brian Whalen wrote: I really don't agree that everyone should pass, tho perhaps that was a wisecrack I didn't see. Inevitably in any class some students try and some don't. If everyone fails then yes perhaps that is a problem, but given the material difficulty, I would expect a substantial failure rate. Brian Sonic Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tom Lisa wrote: I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29362t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Ok, Brian will take your advice. I was thinking on going over most of the labs before my final, but will try to focus a little more on them. Do you feel that the class book was sufficent enough, that you didn't need to read other books before taking the Cisco Routing Exam? Did you try any other questions, like from Boson or anything? C ya Doug Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29287t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
At what location are you taking your Cisco Academy classes?? Just curious; I have a friend that is also taking the classes, and I was quite surprised at the layout (content) of the courses for each semester. Though, after thinking about it, I think the Cisco Academy format is probably the best way to learn how to become a Cisco Engineer at the CCNP+ level. I just don't agree with how drawn out it is over so, so many college semesters. I personally think that most individuals could and should be able to master CCNP level material in 9 months or less. The biggest challenge for anybody is the math involved in the IP address subnetting, VLSM, and Access-Lists. Once you get past that, I think the rest is a no-brainer, as you more-or-less just have to learn a laundry list of rules on how each protocol is implemented, how they work with each other, and why. Now, that's not to mean that I think that within 9 months or less, those same engineers would be CCIE level networking experts (in my opinion at least). Learning in-depth practices for some of the protocols (OSPF, IS-IS, BGP, SNA, DECnet, Vines, etc.) that there isn't much field practice impressed upon, is a totally different ball game. For some of these protocols, you simply can only rely on On-the-Job experience, as it's a little difficult at best to emulate at home a Mainframe, or a Vines server/client environment (just as an example). Just my 0010 cents worth :) Mark Odette II StellarConnection Services -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212] Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29293t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
I completed and passed the 5th semester hands-on practical test early this year. The lab scenario was to design, (i.e., IP address assignment) and configure a 7 router, 2 switches and multiple hosts set-up with RIP and OSPF routing protocols, NAT for internet access, etc. We were three in a group and beforehand discussed on the IP address assignment and who will configure what. The good thing with our group is that we are all fast typists - and know what we are doing. Everything worked fine except one major problem (although my memory fails me now with the details)- the RIP subnetworks are not redistributed to the OSPF networks. It took a while troubleshooting this problem and this has something to do with the IP address assigment. This was corrected and everything worked as it should be. This was a whole day hands-on practicals but we were able to complete this in 5-6 hours. The other group was not able to complete their practicals that day and they had to schedule extra meetings to get their set-up working. Our practicals for the 4th semester was also tough. Four router set-up, with one router configured as frame relay and a router with ISDN fail-over backup when the frame relay switch fails. There were other conditions to be met and took us hours to properly configure and make it work. It was a closed book and notes practical exam and our only resource is the Internet - online materials from Cisco. I missed my lunch as it took us about 5 hours to complete and troubleshoot the configurations. This time we were two in a group. Our instructor examined our set-up and configurations, tested it (extended pings, disabled the frame-relay switch to initiate the ISDN fail-over back-up, etc.) and graded us accordingly. I am pleased that we only got a 5 point (or was it 10 points) deduction. The Cisco Networking Academy hands-on practical exams are not that easy. I can only imagine how tough are the CCIE lab exams. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29295t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Well, I am taking my test in Aurora, CO. We will have 2.5 hrs and no group...one shot...wonderful, huh! Wonder how they come up with this final? Doug Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29305t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
The ironic thing about going through the academy and doing well wont help you pass the 640 routing exam . I would recommend boson.com and purchase one of their test. They'll offer you three test to buy just buy one if you feel that sem5 was learned well . I only have experience with boson so I couldnt tell you about the others ( heard that transenders is the best but expensive!!! )boson has done well for me . Cisco academy does little in preparing you for the test environment you'll take the 640 routing exam . For one thing there are multiple correct or incorrect answers. Thats something you never do when taking an academy test. (one question one answer)Taking the routing exam you can only go forward,once you answer the question you can't go back. The question structures are different. Routing exam questions in comparison are so different from the academy that as you read the questions you scratch your head thinking did I learn anything from the course??? The answer is !! yes you did . Its just that your not use to the structure of the questions. Thats why purchasing a practice test will get you in the grove and you wont be shocked when you walk into the test environment. Not only do you have to study heavy duty material. But you have to practice on how to take their test . I am not sure but I dont think the Academy is responsible for writing the 640 routing exams . I think they come from the professionals at Cisco . Boson software can be set up to have the look and feel of a real 640 exam. You need to practice with it. Boson is also good on helping you focus on the areas the test will be on . You may see a few (if lucky) of the questions from boson on the actual test . The important thing is not getting the answers(which you'll wont) from boson. But just to practice and get through the routing exam the first time. Remember that testing has gone up to $125. Get through the test the first and spend the $40 for the practice or spend another $125 for round 2 P.S. No!! I dont work for Boson.com books I liked were all ciscopress bscn book 640 routing exam Ok, Brian will take your advice. I was thinking on going over most of the labs before my final, but will try to focus a little more on them. Do you feel that the class book was sufficent enough, that you didn't need to read other books before taking the Cisco Routing Exam? Did you try any other questions, like from Boson or anything? C ya Doug Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29306t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
good luck !!! Get it right the first time!! If you don't, don't worry about!! Brian, Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29308t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Are you referring to the CCNP academy? -junovtv Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29215t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
I like your humble spirit and your admission that you need to learn more to do well in the real world (and CCIE), but I would also recommend that you not beat yourself up about this particular test. It doesn't sound like a good test. The test should match what you learned in the semester. Newer educational theories say that the goal should be for everyone to pass a final exam. If everyone passes, then the class worked. It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Don't get too upset by it. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29224t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
H, interesting! I am taking this class and any help you can give me, would be much appreciated! I have heard it's a bear too. Doug Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29231t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29269t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
Oh, I feel so much better now! Only 60% of my class failed the practical exam. I must be an exceptional teacher (or do I have exceptional students; nah, it must be me). :) :) Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
the best thing to do is follow your reading with the labs meaning as you read chapter 4 do chapter 4 labs . Concepts sink in better when you can implement them. Study only cisco academy's material for the testing and exams. There is great material out there but will only take time away from doing well in the course. Trust me on this one!! As I started to take sem 5 I was allready half way through getting my ccnp certification . I was more focused on that certification than taking care in learning the course well. Just because I pass the routing 640 exam didnt mean that I would coast through the course. In fact it was my weakest semester score wise. Work on vlsm and summarization Its something that you will learn in the begining and wont see until you need it for the skills final. Stay on top of it . Everyone I know was so focused on getting good scores that the labs would almost take a backseat. Bad mistake!!! What is an employer going to hire you on good scores or on the fact that you can design, implement and troubleshoot. A no brainer for sure but the smart ones seem to miss this one. I have my certifications which can impress for a good 5 seconds but quickly wain when it gets down to doing the work. An instructor responded to my original message and had only 40% of his class pass the skills test. Yes it is a Bear of a test !!! If I was an employer looking for someone to hire I would take the ccna who passed the skills final over a ccnp show couldnt. Not to bash myself but it is an honest assessment. good luck!! Study hard!!! P.S. Not to scare you even more but sem 5 is considered the hardest of the 4 semesters and why do they teach it first is beyond me! The good news!! once your over the hump its down hill(at least for the remaining semesters) So I'm told!! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29276t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cisco academy's routing skills final ,tough!!! [7:29212]
I wasn't criticizing the teacher. I just wanted to make that clear. ;-) Designing a final exam that everyone fails just seems like a poor method of eduction. We learned to do the opposite in the education classes I took recently. I realize that the design is Cisco's, not the Academy instructor's. Priscilla At 03:13 PM 12/14/01, you wrote: I resemble that remark! Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: It sounds like some old-fashioned meanie wrote this test. Priscilla At 12:32 PM 12/14/01, brian hall wrote: Just a message to those who (like me!) thinking that reading, doing labs and taking multiple choice test will prepare you for the real world and (hopefully)the CCIE lab need to be exposed to cisco's network accademy semester 5 skills final . I just took it yesterday and failed . In fact the whole class failed. One of our students who scored high on most test and blazed through the final written exam in 10 mins, walked out in frustration . Another student who works as an administrator, was are best chance of having someone pass missed it . I myself knew after an hour that if you don't have those commands down cold with a solid understanding of how to implement them your GOOSE is cooked !!! . You do have the option to have your own written notes to help but that might weigh you down if too much is in front of you . Working on idividual labs is one thing but putting the whole environment together is a whole different animal . Once given the actual skills asessment designing, implementing and trouble shooting you assume that this ones in the bag . The environment wasn't large and looking back at the running config's there wasnt much to them other than having MED and CBAC . Ah!!! but how wrong I was!!! I'll spare the details and say that this was an eye opener . It showed me what I really don't know and to do the job in the real world will take a lot work on my part . Buyer Beware !!! Overall it was good to go through and to be pushed just shows the weak areas FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=29280t=29212 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
