Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Sorry to have missed some of the more fun stuff in between then and now, but a vacation on the coast beckoned. Any recommendations on drive manufacturers? Maxtor used to be one of my favorites until they got bought out by Seagate (which was one of my least favorites based on a series of failures we saw in about 2 dozen Sun workstations - true, it was many years ago, but still, the memories of the early morning phone calls linger). The My World Book has 2 Western Digital drives in it (seeing how it's sold by WD). I'm assuming both drives were new, but still, one failed a bit over a year after I bought it. So, right now, WD isn't too high on my list o' favorite drives. I usually buy from local reputable stores that have been in business for a looong time and avoid Toys R' Us for my computer equipment. Larry -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:28 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question Mirroring. Data loss can happen at a lot of stages. A mirror isn't going to increase your chances of losing data in itself. He had three drives, all with the same data...seems reasonable to me. Mike On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Tony B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remember there are like 7-8 types of RAIDs these days. I really can't remember now what the OP eventually decided on. The RAID controller itself adds a whole separate layer of complexity to controlling a disk, regardless if it's hard or soft. Don't forget - while RAIDs are rebuilding, they can be subject to total data loss if a second drive fails. Not so unlikely if it's age or a power surge that took out the first one. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:22 PM, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data, so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft? Mike On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would you recommend this pair of hard drives be setup as a RAID? Or at least 2 independent hard drives? I sort of like the idea of keeping one drive (or one pair of drives) off site. You want the two drives decoupled. RAID would immediately copy an error from one drive to the other -- not what you want. I rotate three drives, always keeping one off site. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
At 11:17 PM -0500 9/7/08, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Eric you forgot one important as[ect in this also. Wall Streets expected gains. All publicly held companies are expected to perform by Wall Street and they set the numbers. If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a problem and it leads to stock sell off, which means less capital to work with. How do you figure that? The company already has the capital from the original sale of the stock. Subsequent sales have no affect on the company. The company got theirs during the IPO (Initial Public Offering). -- Roger Lovettsville, VA * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a problem and it leads to stock sell off, which means less capital to work with. How do you figure that? Many companies like to buy things with stock, not cash. Hence a lower stock price actually does result in less capital to work with. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
It also effects how they can borrow and what they pay. I was just reading an article the other day about the big three auto companies in Detroit. Because their stocks are rated just above junk status they are having a hard time borrowing money to upgrade. They are looking to Uncle Sam for guarantees to borrow money. Stewart At 10:42 AM 9/8/2008, you wrote: If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a problem and it leads to stock sell off, which means less capital to work with. How do you figure that? Many companies like to buy things with stock, not cash. Hence a lower stock price actually does result in less capital to work with. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
That is not greed it is called expected return on investment. Not all profits are bad. Not all profits are good. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
We pay you out of our profits if you own our stock, you own the company. Some companies, like MS, hold on to their profits. What's up with that? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
It is called return on investment and there is an expectation of a percentage of earnings. Some companies keep a cash reserve for buy outs and reinvesting in the company. They also buy back stock to increase it's value. Public Service Commissions (they are called different things in different states) set what they feel is a proper return on investments and only allow Public Utilities to raise their rates up to what they feel is the ceiling. After that the only reason they will raise rates is to keep up with increased fuel costs. My mother lives in TN and has TVA as her supplier and they just got approval for a 20% rate hike due to increased fuel costs. How to explain what each individual company does is beyond my pay grade. Stewart At 12:14 PM 9/8/2008, you wrote: That is not greed it is called expected return on investment. Not all profits are bad. Not all profits are good. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
At 11:50 AM -0500 9/8/08, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: It also effects how they can borrow and what they pay. I was just reading an article the other day about the big three auto companies in Detroit. Because their stocks are rated just above junk status they are having a hard time borrowing money to upgrade. They are looking to Uncle Sam for guarantees to borrow money. I think you mean their BONDS, not their stocks. A different type of financing instrument. -- Roger Lovettsville, VA * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
It did not state clearly. Just that they are having a hard time borrowing money due to their low performing financial status. Stewart At 01:12 PM 9/8/2008, you wrote: At 11:50 AM -0500 9/8/08, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: It also effects how they can borrow and what they pay. I was just reading an article the other day about the big three auto companies in Detroit. Because their stocks are rated just above junk status they are having a hard time borrowing money to upgrade. They are looking to Uncle Sam for guarantees to borrow money. I think you mean their BONDS, not their stocks. A different type of financing instrument. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
It is called return on investment and there is an expectation of a percentage of earnings. Expectation is not an entitlement. There are good profits and bad profits. See note on mafia. Some companies keep a cash reserve for buy outs and reinvesting in the company. They also buy back stock to increase it's value. Have you looked up how much MS retained ($100B) and how that compares to other corporations? It recently had to disgorge $32B to avoid paying an excess retained earnings penalty. Public Service Commissions (they are called different things in different states) set what they feel is a proper return on investments and only allow Public Utilities Is MS now also a public utility? I missed that one. I guess that makes them entitled. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Larry, For photos, consider storage in the cloud. Smugmug.com allows unlimited photo storage for an annual fee. There are also paid versions of Google's Picasa that provide large amounts of storage. The disadvantage is that it will take a really long time to upload (or download) 200 GB, but keeping it updated is not so bad, and it's one of the few solutions that protects you in event of a disaster like fire, flood or tornado. Smugmug has some other features of interest to professionals. Jungledisk, which uses Amazon S3 on line storage, lets you store more than just photos. For local storage take a look at drobo.com. It's like RAID for the masses, allows you to use drives of mixed size, provides data redundancy, and allows you to hot-swap drives as they fail. Combining redundant local storage with on line storage is as safe as you can get. py On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Larry Sacks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to jump into the RAID vs No-RAID fray... but I seek a relatively easily managed data backup solution. I've got a photography business and am trying to keep photos from various shoots around. At this point, I'm mostly looking for the hardware answer. I'll worry about the software side of things down the road. My first solution was to keep copies of photos on 2 separate hard drives. I would just copy entire folders over to each drive although that was cumbersome since I didn't always copy the folders to the 2nd drive as they were created. I also use an external hard drive (USB) (that I keep off-site) that I only power on when I need to either recover something or add to it. A little over a year ago, I bought a WD My World Book II that offered 1 TB of storage. Out of fear of a single-point of failure (and before I saw any of the RAID discussion here), I set it up as a RAID (mirrored). Even though the MTBF's of hard drives is getting into years or decades over the weekend, the drive management console for the World Book informed me one of the two drives had failed. I've got it powered off now and don't want to power it back on again until I have the drive replaced and the mirror rebuilt - even if it's just a stop-gap procedure. Basically, I'm worried the other drive will crap out and I'll be left with a paper weight. I'm open to suggestions for data backup? I can't (or won't) rely on just 1 hard drive. DVD backups are a possibility, as are CD. I'm currently using about 200 or so gb disk space. Online data backups are a possibility, although cost per month is something I need to factor in as well. Thanks, Larry * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
that's called dilution. got 1 billion share out. issue 100 mil to purchase a new hot yacht, and a hot honey for decoration, and the stock depreciates by 10%. At 11:42 AM 9/8/2008, you wrote: If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a problem and it leads to stock sell off, which means less capital to work with. How do you figure that? Many companies like to buy things with stock, not cash. Hence a lower stock price actually does result in less capital to work with. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Why do you think every thing is a defense of MS$? (By the way the Mafia is an illegal entity and crime never is justified.) I have no friggin idea how much they hold back and I never mentioned them once in all I wrote. I was giving broad general Brush strokes. Me thinks you are showing signs of paranoia. Or at least MS$ on the brain. Stewart At 02:00 PM 9/8/2008, you wrote: It is called return on investment and there is an expectation of a percentage of earnings. Expectation is not an entitlement. There are good profits and bad profits. See note on mafia. Some companies keep a cash reserve for buy outs and reinvesting in the company. They also buy back stock to increase it's value. Have you looked up how much MS retained ($100B) and how that compares to other corporations? It recently had to disgorge $32B to avoid paying an excess retained earnings penalty. Public Service Commissions (they are called different things in different states) set what they feel is a proper return on investments and only allow Public Utilities Is MS now also a public utility? I missed that one. I guess that makes them entitled. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
My own recent experience with Jungle Disk and the boss's laptop full of unedited family pictures has not been without trouble. First, some people just don't have the dedication to process any of these pictures. Upon investigation, I found folder after folder full of huge pics of really dumb stuff like the dog in 30 poses, etc. etc. So that meant the initial backup would take some 24 hours on her DSL. Okay, if it went without a hitch. But it didn't. I don't know whether to blame JD or S3, but I had no choice but to tell her to offload all that crap to DVDs. She won't, but she also won't miss 99.9% of those pics when the laptop dies. On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 4:30 PM, P Yasuda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For photos, consider storage in the cloud. Smugmug.com allows unlimited photo storage for an annual fee. There are also paid versions of Google's Picasa that provide large amounts of storage. The disadvantage is that it will take a really long time to upload (or download) 200 GB, but keeping it updated is not so bad, and it's one of the few solutions that protects you in event of a disaster like fire, flood or tornado. Smugmug has some other features of interest to professionals. Jungledisk, which uses Amazon S3 on line storage, lets you store more than just photos. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
The essence of good management is the ability to properly assess risk. The essence of good management is turning a profit. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
The essence of good management is both of the above ... as neatly demonstrated by the recent history of the US housing loan business... db Eric S. Sande wrote: The essence of good management is the ability to properly assess risk. The essence of good management is turning a profit. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
The essence of good management is turning a profit. I can understand the greed is good philosophy, but I think we were put on earth for a higher purpose. There is also the problem of the sort-sighted pursuit of profits leading to long-term ruin. If the likes of Comcast Cox are allowed to run our information economy into the ground it will eventually hurt their stockholders too. That is why the EC has enacted price caps on various data-related services: to protect society and ultimately the greedy capitalists themselves from their pursuit of short-term goals. The essence of good management is the ability to properly assess risk. Long-term profits require good management. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Adding to the robustness of modern hard drives. I just read that when SMART drive performance data is sent back to a Mac (not all disk controllers do this), the Mac will automatically move and disable bad disk blocks. I don't know about Windows. www.macintouch.com/readereports/harddrives * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Are not all hard drives doomed to end, all hard drivers doomed to go soft, all soft drives doomed to hardened or fail? Hardly driven, Randall On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adding to the robustness of modern hard drives. I just read that when SMART drive performance data is sent back to a Mac (not all disk controllers do this), the Mac will automatically move and disable bad disk blocks. I don't know about Windows. www.macintouch.com/readereports/harddrives * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Are not all hard drives doomed to end, all hard drivers doomed to go soft, all soft drives doomed to hardened or fail? With a MTBF around 30 years, I expect you will toss the drive for other reasons before it fails. I forget the date, but it has been calculated that the sun will at some point become a black dwarf and kill all life on our planet. Nevertheless, I would not change my dinner reservations on that account. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Maybe the email didn't get through...Tom, which hard drives do you buy that aren't available at the Toys R Us? On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are not all hard drives doomed to end, all hard drivers doomed to go soft, all soft drives doomed to hardened or fail? With a MTBF around 30 years, I expect you will toss the drive for other reasons before it fails. I forget the date, but it has been calculated that the sun will at some point become a black dwarf and kill all life on our planet. Nevertheless, I would not change my dinner reservations on that account. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
I can understand the greed is good philosophy, but I think we were put on earth for a higher purpose. OK, I can see that and I may be oversimplifying. But let's get real here. You've got your own private business and you don't work for charity, I'm sure you charge your clients a market rate that includes a profit for you. I work for a publically held company that's responsible to its stockholders for return on investment, otherwise known as profits over time. To compete I either have to offer the best product at a competitive price, or a competitive product at the best price. I choose to do both depending on what infrastructure deployment I have. I want to move to the best model and I am taking risks to do this. In fact I am betting the store. But if I don't make a profit then I am not going to be able to operate. All of my employees, my stockholders, and my subscribers will be SOL because I can't pay dividends or even the light bill. So I don't think it's necessarily about greed. I think it's about keeping the engine running in the right direction. I couldn't do this without my top professional employees, my world class technology, and our collective dedication to the mission. Profits aren't bad. I ate dinner today and so did everybody that works for me as well as their families. And we added more subscribers to our optical network today. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Eric you forgot one important as[ect in this also. Wall Streets expected gains. All publicly held companies are expected to perform by Wall Street and they set the numbers. If a company comes in low for the quarter they are having a problem and it leads to stock sell off, which means less capital to work with. Stewart At 11:00 PM 9/7/2008, you wrote: I can understand the greed is good philosophy, but I think we were put on earth for a higher purpose. OK, I can see that and I may be oversimplifying. But let's get real here. You've got your own private business and you don't work for charity, I'm sure you charge your clients a market rate that includes a profit for you. I work for a publically held company that's responsible to its stockholders for return on investment, otherwise known as profits over time. To compete I either have to offer the best product at a competitive price, or a competitive product at the best price. I choose to do both depending on what infrastructure deployment I have. I want to move to the best model and I am taking risks to do this. In fact I am betting the store. But if I don't make a profit then I am not going to be able to operate. All of my employees, my stockholders, and my subscribers will be SOL because I can't pay dividends or even the light bill. So I don't think it's necessarily about greed. I think it's about keeping the engine running in the right direction. I couldn't do this without my top professional employees, my world class technology, and our collective dedication to the mission. Profits aren't bad. I ate dinner today and so did everybody that works for me as well as their families. And we added more subscribers to our optical network today. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Wall Streets expected gains. What part of a dividend check do you not understand? We pay you out of our profits if you own our stock, you own the company. You get to vote on policy. Buy a few shares. Buy a lot of shares. This is a perfect time to buy shares. I value your support. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
I agree and understand what you say. What I was also pointing out is that Wall street expects companies to gain and make money. That is part of the economy and free market. If company A does not meet earning expectations they get a no vote from Wall Street and their stock drops. If they beat expectations they get a nod and their stock increases. Buy stock, invest in mutual funds which buy stock. Your pension plan my pension plan most everyone's private pension plan has come to rely and expect stocks to profit on Wall Street. That is not greed it is called expected return on investment. Stewart At 11:52 PM 9/7/2008, you wrote: Wall Streets expected gains. What part of a dividend check do you not understand? We pay you out of our profits if you own our stock, you own the company. You get to vote on policy. Buy a few shares. Buy a lot of shares. This is a perfect time to buy shares. I value your support. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Are not we better off trying to do our best protecting all types of errors? Not necessarily. This is a great example of the importance of good judgement. There are 2 types of errors with soft occurring 98% of the time, and hard 2%. You want to make a major effort to protect against the 2% and do nothing about the 98%. To me that is just silly. RAID is a silly waste of resources. All your problems are soft related, I've seen more hardware related. I'm sorry the you don't understand that things change and the significance of MTBFs. You keep implementing tech solutions from the '80s and '90s. I would choose to try and protect both, you ignore one. Yep, that's a fine example of of bad judgement. Once events become very rare the technology used to protect against them becomes a significant source of problems. It can exceed the likelyhood of the original problem. Time to chnage with the times. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
It's not a matter of not understanding when MY OWN experience is that I have had more hard then soft errors. You seem to have a consistent problem of believing your experience equals facts. Just because in your experience you have had more soft errors then hard, doesn't make it true for everyone else. If I have a client who lost an entire days work because I chose to implement a solution that only solved soft errors I would be doing him a disservice. I'm not sure how I would tell him that at the cost of thousands of dollars of inactivity while down, was worth not spending a few hundred more when the server was being built. It was just a few weeks ago that this was exactly the case, a hard drive had failed hardware wise and the engineering company would have been completely down had it not been for a RAID. Instead he never noticed a problem at all, his company kept making money and with zero down time the HD was replaced. This solution from the 80's and 90's as you say, kept him running in 2008 when your so called 98% solution would have cost him a lot more in down time. Mike On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are not we better off trying to do our best protecting all types of errors? Not necessarily. This is a great example of the importance of good judgement. There are 2 types of errors with soft occurring 98% of the time, and hard 2%. You want to make a major effort to protect against the 2% and do nothing about the 98%. To me that is just silly. RAID is a silly waste of resources. All your problems are soft related, I've seen more hardware related. I'm sorry the you don't understand that things change and the significance of MTBFs. You keep implementing tech solutions from the '80s and '90s. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
what do you do to protect against the 98% soft errors Tom? db mike wrote: It's not a matter of not understanding when MY OWN experience is that I have had more hard then soft errors. You seem to have a consistent problem of believing your experience equals facts. Just because in your experience you have had more soft errors then hard, doesn't make it true for everyone else. If I have a client who lost an entire days work because I chose to implement a solution that only solved soft errors I would be doing him a disservice. I'm not sure how I would tell him that at the cost of thousands of dollars of inactivity while down, was worth not spending a few hundred more when the server was being built. It was just a few weeks ago that this was exactly the case, a hard drive had failed hardware wise and the engineering company would have been completely down had it not been for a RAID. Instead he never noticed a problem at all, his company kept making money and with zero down time the HD was replaced. This solution from the 80's and 90's as you say, kept him running in 2008 when your so called 98% solution would have cost him a lot more in down time. Mike On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are not we better off trying to do our best protecting all types of errors? Not necessarily. This is a great example of the importance of good judgement. There are 2 types of errors with soft occurring 98% of the time, and hard 2%. You want to make a major effort to protect against the 2% and do nothing about the 98%. To me that is just silly. RAID is a silly waste of resources. All your problems are soft related, I've seen more hardware related. I'm sorry the you don't understand that things change and the significance of MTBFs. You keep implementing tech solutions from the '80s and '90s. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
It's not a matter of not understanding when MY OWN experience is that I have had more hard then soft errors. Stop buying drives from Toys-R-Us. You seem to have a consistent problem of believing your experience equals facts. The change in MTBF stats from 2,000 to 300,000 is not just my experience. You too can pull up a spec sheet and read it. Then you can experience it too. We can all read the stats and make it a shared experience. If I have a client who lost an entire days work because I chose to implement a solution that only solved soft errors I would be doing him a disservice. Taking such a position you would also have to protect them from meteor strikes too. The essence of good management is the ability to properly assess risk. It was just a few weeks ago that this was exactly the case, a hard drive had failed hardware wise and the engineering company would have been completely down had it not been for a RAID. Stop buying drives from Toys-R-Us. And tell the rest of your clients that you wasted lots their money protecting them from a problem that is very unlikely to happen. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
So enlighten us as to where you buy hard drives that they never fail. On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not a matter of not understanding when MY OWN experience is that I have had more hard then soft errors. Stop buying drives from Toys-R-Us. You seem to have a consistent problem of believing your experience equals facts. The change in MTBF stats from 2,000 to 300,000 is not just my experience. You too can pull up a spec sheet and read it. Then you can experience it too. We can all read the stats and make it a shared experience. If I have a client who lost an entire days work because I chose to implement a solution that only solved soft errors I would be doing him a disservice. Taking such a position you would also have to protect them from meteor strikes too. The essence of good management is the ability to properly assess risk. It was just a few weeks ago that this was exactly the case, a hard drive had failed hardware wise and the engineering company would have been completely down had it not been for a RAID. Stop buying drives from Toys-R-Us. And tell the rest of your clients that you wasted lots their money protecting them from a problem that is very unlikely to happen. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Soft errors just for Tom was:Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
What do you do to protect against the 98% of soft errors, Tom? On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what do you do to protect against the 98% soft errors Tom? That is an entirely different question, having nothing to do with my disdain of RAID. No I won't respond to efforts to change the topic. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
So enlighten us as to where you buy hard drives that they never fail. Being silly gets you no credit. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
I had no doubt I would not get an answer from you. On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So enlighten us as to where you buy hard drives that they never fail. Being silly gets you no credit. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data, so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft? You are still talking hard errors, not soft errors. The soft error will have a perfectly fine CRC, but its payload will be poison. CRC is like spell chacking a paragraph that has no misspellings, but is full of grammar errors . * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data, so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft? Mike On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would you recommend this pair of hard drives be setup as a RAID? Or at least 2 independent hard drives? I sort of like the idea of keeping one drive (or one pair of drives) off site. You want the two drives decoupled. RAID would immediately copy an error from one drive to the other -- not what you want. I rotate three drives, always keeping one off site. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Remember there are like 7-8 types of RAIDs these days. I really can't remember now what the OP eventually decided on. The RAID controller itself adds a whole separate layer of complexity to controlling a disk, regardless if it's hard or soft. Don't forget - while RAIDs are rebuilding, they can be subject to total data loss if a second drive fails. Not so unlikely if it's age or a power surge that took out the first one. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:22 PM, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data, so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft? Mike On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would you recommend this pair of hard drives be setup as a RAID? Or at least 2 independent hard drives? I sort of like the idea of keeping one drive (or one pair of drives) off site. You want the two drives decoupled. RAID would immediately copy an error from one drive to the other -- not what you want. I rotate three drives, always keeping one off site. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Mirroring. Data loss can happen at a lot of stages. A mirror isn't going to increase your chances of losing data in itself. He had three drives, all with the same data...seems reasonable to me. Mike On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Tony B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remember there are like 7-8 types of RAIDs these days. I really can't remember now what the OP eventually decided on. The RAID controller itself adds a whole separate layer of complexity to controlling a disk, regardless if it's hard or soft. Don't forget - while RAIDs are rebuilding, they can be subject to total data loss if a second drive fails. Not so unlikely if it's age or a power surge that took out the first one. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:22 PM, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data, so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft? Mike On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would you recommend this pair of hard drives be setup as a RAID? Or at least 2 independent hard drives? I sort of like the idea of keeping one drive (or one pair of drives) off site. You want the two drives decoupled. RAID would immediately copy an error from one drive to the other -- not what you want. I rotate three drives, always keeping one off site. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data, so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft? You keep worying about the wrong type of errors. RAID is from an age where drive MTBFs were 2000 hours. Today MTBFs are at 300,000 hours. Today the kinds of errors we see the most are soft errors. RAID error checking will not see them, it will pass them on unfixed, but they will destroy your data just the same. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
That's what CRC does...why do you think it won't? You could possibly argue that if you have a bad controler that still functions 98% AND a bad hard drive that still gives the illusion of working that this could happen...otherwise this makes no sense. And under your way, with one drive in the box and one drive via usb/firewire...why wouldn't bad data be written then? On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 6:47 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually I don't think this is right. Hardware RAID does crc on the data, so corruption is almost impossible, the RAID would drop the bad drive off if it started returning errors. Of course this is moo as joey says if he is doing soft RAID. So the question is...hard or soft? You keep worying about the wrong type of errors. RAID is from an age where drive MTBFs were 2000 hours. Today MTBFs are at 300,000 hours. Today the kinds of errors we see the most are soft errors. RAID error checking will not see them, it will pass them on unfixed, but they will destroy your data just the same. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Okay. Now I understand the RAID fetish. You are not worrying about the logical structure of the drive. You are focusing on the hardware and testing bits and bytes as they go by. CRC has nothing to do with the logical structure of the drive, just the bits and bytes as they are being transferred. From my long experience almost all drive related problems are soft errors. That is why I worry about them and see no need for RAID's hardware protection. That's what CRC does...why do you think it won't? You could possibly argue that if you have a bad controler that still functions 98% AND a bad hard drive that still gives the illusion of working that this could happen...otherwise this makes no sense. And under your way, with one drive in the box and one drive via usb/firewire...why wouldn't bad data be written then? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
So then how do you correct soft errors? You seem to have a soft fetish...I want to protect both, you don't seem to feel the need to protect the hardware side. Hence why you keep talking about mtbf. Are not we better off trying to do our best protecting all types of errors? If I hire a IT manager I don't want just him relying on what he's seen, but what is true. I had a manager at a grocery store I used to work at order ad based on what he liked and not what the buying habits were for the area. That seems to be the way you work out data protection schemes. All your problems are soft related, I've seen more hardware related. I would choose to try and protect both, you ignore one. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay. Now I understand the RAID fetish. You are not worrying about the logical structure of the drive. You are focusing on the hardware and testing bits and bytes as they go by. CRC has nothing to do with the logical structure of the drive, just the bits and bytes as they are being transferred. From my long experience almost all drive related problems are soft errors. That is why I worry about them and see no need for RAID's hardware protection. That's what CRC does...why do you think it won't? You could possibly argue that if you have a bad controler that still functions 98% AND a bad hard drive that still gives the illusion of working that this could happen...otherwise this makes no sense. And under your way, with one drive in the box and one drive via usb/firewire...why wouldn't bad data be written then? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
You need two solutions--backup and archive. They're different. Backup is for day to day tasks to keep current files on hand. Archives are for the files you need to keep but may not look at until next year or later. Consider using network drives for backup. Buy the most reliable brand bare drives you can find--Seagate, Samsung, Toshiba, Hitachi and put them into a network drive case. Avoid Western Digital--they outsource manufacturing so the drives' chips may not be consistent, thus making damaged drives more costly, or perhaps impossible to restore, even if the drives are reliable. If backing up is mission critical, and it usually is, rotate several drives for backup; replace them after 2 years. DVDs are best for archiving. You want a static medium for archives, not a hard drive where changes and additions can affect existing files. Use a good database to find your pix and docs; do you have/use one? Betty Photos are usually best archived to DVD. But if you've got 200gb of archival photos it would take a month to burn all that. Yeah... I've looked into DVDs for backups. When I first started the biz, I used CDs for backup - one in my desk, the other into my safe deposit box but that's gotten somewhat full, plus it's a hassle having to go to the bank every few weeks. Question 1: Is that entire 200G archival photos? I know you shoot huge raw files for a given project, but after you pick out a few keepers and save them as jpgs or something, then it's time to delete the bulk of the raw stuff. Most of the photos are jpgs. Some are the original 'raw' format, but that's on a job-by-job basis. Figure 95% are jpgs and those have been sorted through so the non-keepers are not kept. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
So would you recommend this pair of hard drives be setup as a RAID? Or at least 2 independent hard drives? I sort of like the idea of keeping one drive (or one pair of drives) off site. You want the two drives decoupled. RAID would immediately copy an error from one drive to the other -- not what you want. I rotate three drives, always keeping one off site. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
I just bought a 500 Gig Seagate external hard drive, even though I only have 110 Gig hard drive. I Say I have 5 to 10 gigs of files (mostly text) I don't need to refer to on a regular basis. Couldn't I back them up onto the external and delete them from the hard drive, to improve performance? Actually, I only have about 25 to 30 Gigs total on hard drive, so could easily back up everything for now, with lots of room to spare. Thanks, Randy On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:47 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You need two solutions--backup and archive. They're different. Backup is for day to day tasks to keep current files on hand. Archives are for the files you need to keep but may not look at until next year or later. Consider using network drives for backup. Buy the most reliable brand bare drives you can find--Seagate, Samsung, Toshiba, Hitachi and put them into a network drive case. Avoid Western Digital--they outsource manufacturing so the drives' chips may not be consistent, thus making damaged drives more costly, or perhaps impossible to restore, even if the drives are reliable. If backing up is mission critical, and it usually is, rotate several drives for backup; replace them after 2 years. DVDs are best for archiving. You want a static medium for archives, not a hard drive where changes and additions can affect existing files. Use a good database to find your pix and docs; do you have/use one? Betty Photos are usually best archived to DVD. But if you've got 200gb of archival photos it would take a month to burn all that. Yeah... I've looked into DVDs for backups. When I first started the biz, I used CDs for backup - one in my desk, the other into my safe deposit box but that's gotten somewhat full, plus it's a hassle having to go to the bank every few weeks. Question 1: Is that entire 200G archival photos? I know you shoot huge raw files for a given project, but after you pick out a few keepers and save them as jpgs or something, then it's time to delete the bulk of the raw stuff. Most of the photos are jpgs. Some are the original 'raw' format, but that's on a job-by-job basis. Figure 95% are jpgs and those have been sorted through so the non-keepers are not kept. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
You need two solutions--backup and archive. They're different. Backup is for day to day tasks to keep current files on hand. Archives are for the files you need to keep but may not look at until next year or later. I see this changing. With disk storage as cheap as it is today, more and more archives are being left on spinning storage and included with the regular backups. And why not? If active work fills only a fraction of a 1 TB drive, one might as well do something with the remainder. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Data backup question
Not to jump into the RAID vs No-RAID fray... but I seek a relatively easily managed data backup solution. I've got a photography business and am trying to keep photos from various shoots around. At this point, I'm mostly looking for the hardware answer. I'll worry about the software side of things down the road. My first solution was to keep copies of photos on 2 separate hard drives. I would just copy entire folders over to each drive although that was cumbersome since I didn't always copy the folders to the 2nd drive as they were created. I also use an external hard drive (USB) (that I keep off-site) that I only power on when I need to either recover something or add to it. A little over a year ago, I bought a WD My World Book II that offered 1 TB of storage. Out of fear of a single-point of failure (and before I saw any of the RAID discussion here), I set it up as a RAID (mirrored). Even though the MTBF's of hard drives is getting into years or decades over the weekend, the drive management console for the World Book informed me one of the two drives had failed. I've got it powered off now and don't want to power it back on again until I have the drive replaced and the mirror rebuilt - even if it's just a stop-gap procedure. Basically, I'm worried the other drive will crap out and I'll be left with a paper weight. I'm open to suggestions for data backup? I can't (or won't) rely on just 1 hard drive. DVD backups are a possibility, as are CD. I'm currently using about 200 or so gb disk space. Online data backups are a possibility, although cost per month is something I need to factor in as well. Thanks, Larry * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
The trouble with CD and DVD backups is most just don't keep up with it enough for it to be viable. It's a lot of slow laborious work and indexing/ cataloging coupled with shuttling to offsite storage. It doesn't accommodate incremental backup unless you are running some backup software which then ends in another layer of complex indexing... db Larry Sacks wrote: Not to jump into the RAID vs No-RAID fray... but I seek a relatively easily managed data backup solution. I've got a photography business and am trying to keep photos from various shoots around. At this point, I'm mostly looking for the hardware answer. I'll worry about the software side of things down the road. My first solution was to keep copies of photos on 2 separate hard drives. I would just copy entire folders over to each drive although that was cumbersome since I didn't always copy the folders to the 2nd drive as they were created. I also use an external hard drive (USB) (that I keep off-site) that I only power on when I need to either recover something or add to it. A little over a year ago, I bought a WD My World Book II that offered 1 TB of storage. Out of fear of a single-point of failure (and before I saw any of the RAID discussion here), I set it up as a RAID (mirrored). Even though the MTBF's of hard drives is getting into years or decades over the weekend, the drive management console for the World Book informed me one of the two drives had failed. I've got it powered off now and don't want to power it back on again until I have the drive replaced and the mirror rebuilt - even if it's just a stop-gap procedure. Basically, I'm worried the other drive will crap out and I'll be left with a paper weight. I'm open to suggestions for data backup? I can't (or won't) rely on just 1 hard drive. DVD backups are a possibility, as are CD. I'm currently using about 200 or so gb disk space. Online data backups are a possibility, although cost per month is something I need to factor in as well. Thanks, Larry * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
I'm not overly worried about incremental backup. If I work a photo job, I'll copy the pictures to my computer but won't wipe the memory card until I've got the job completed and the photos are either online or in the customer's hands. At that point, (before I got the World Book) I'd copy the final versions of the photos to 2 separate hard drives and then reformat the memory card. With the World Book, I would just dump the files there. Then, about once a quarter, I'd get the offsite drive and bring it to the onsite stuff to update it. I keep things indexed by year. So far at least, I can usually remember when a job was. Larry -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of db Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 12:38 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question The trouble with CD and DVD backups is most just don't keep up with it enough for it to be viable. It's a lot of slow laborious work and indexing/ cataloging coupled with shuttling to offsite storage. It doesn't accommodate incremental backup unless you are running some backup software which then ends in another layer of complex indexing... db Larry Sacks wrote: Not to jump into the RAID vs No-RAID fray... but I seek a relatively easily managed data backup solution. I've got a photography business and am trying to keep photos from various shoots around. At this point, I'm mostly looking for the hardware answer. I'll worry about the software side of things down the road. My first solution was to keep copies of photos on 2 separate hard drives. I would just copy entire folders over to each drive although that was cumbersome since I didn't always copy the folders to the 2nd drive as they were created. I also use an external hard drive (USB) (that I keep off-site) that I only power on when I need to either recover something or add to it. A little over a year ago, I bought a WD My World Book II that offered 1 TB of storage. Out of fear of a single-point of failure (and before I saw any of the RAID discussion here), I set it up as a RAID (mirrored). Even though the MTBF's of hard drives is getting into years or decades over the weekend, the drive management console for the World Book informed me one of the two drives had failed. I've got it powered off now and don't want to power it back on again until I have the drive replaced and the mirror rebuilt - even if it's just a stop-gap procedure. Basically, I'm worried the other drive will crap out and I'll be left with a paper weight. I'm open to suggestions for data backup? I can't (or won't) rely on just 1 hard drive. DVD backups are a possibility, as are CD. I'm currently using about 200 or so gb disk space. Online data backups are a possibility, although cost per month is something I need to factor in as well. Thanks, Larry * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Photos are usually best archived to DVD. But if you've got 200gb of archival photos it would take a month to burn all that. Yeah... I've looked into DVDs for backups. When I first started the biz, I used CDs for backup - one in my desk, the other into my safe deposit box but that's gotten somewhat full, plus it's a hassle having to go to the bank every few weeks. Question 1: Is that entire 200G archival photos? I know you shoot huge raw files for a given project, but after you pick out a few keepers and save them as jpgs or something, then it's time to delete the bulk of the raw stuff. Most of the photos are jpgs. Some are the original 'raw' format, but that's on a job-by-job basis. Figure 95% are jpgs and those have been sorted through so the non-keepers are not kept. Otherwise, you may be a good candidate to early adopt blu-ray. Burners are maybe $300, blanks ~$15, and they can hold ~25gb. I was considering that. One concern is longevity - will whatever format (or media) I use will available upwards of 10 years down the road. Never use the words hard drive and archival in the same sentence. I usually try not to but it seemed to fit. Hard drives can and do fail suddenly and without warning. See my comment about my 1+ year old hard drive dying (the one that's part of the RAID). That's why I don't trust just one hard drive. I want to be sure I've got a backup to my backup (and quite possibly a backup to that). On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Larry Sacks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to jump into the RAID vs No-RAID fray... but I seek a relatively easily managed data backup solution. I've got a photography business and am trying to keep photos from various shoots around. At this point, I'm mostly looking for the hardware answer. I'll worry about the software side of things down the road. I'm open to suggestions for data backup? I can't (or won't) rely on just 1 hard drive. DVD backups are a possibility, as are CD. I'm currently using about 200 or so gb disk space. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
I'd stick with what you have going now, a true backup and then mirrored drives. I don't think anyone can say for sure that in a year a DVD will still work, I have some from a couple years ago that are starting to error out. I think it partially has to do with the drive they were originally burned on. I've noticed that if I want them to work for sure, I need to keep the drive I burned them on. My wife has about 8500 photos of the kids, to threat of a bloody end, I have all of them on three HD's and also on a NAS my friend has at his house which I update about every month. Paranoia of wife beatings is the best motivation. Mike On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Larry Sacks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Photos are usually best archived to DVD. But if you've got 200gb of archival photos it would take a month to burn all that. Yeah... I've looked into DVDs for backups. When I first started the biz, I used CDs for backup - one in my desk, the other into my safe deposit box but that's gotten somewhat full, plus it's a hassle having to go to the bank every few weeks. Question 1: Is that entire 200G archival photos? I know you shoot huge raw files for a given project, but after you pick out a few keepers and save them as jpgs or something, then it's time to delete the bulk of the raw stuff. Most of the photos are jpgs. Some are the original 'raw' format, but that's on a job-by-job basis. Figure 95% are jpgs and those have been sorted through so the non-keepers are not kept. Otherwise, you may be a good candidate to early adopt blu-ray. Burners are maybe $300, blanks ~$15, and they can hold ~25gb. I was considering that. One concern is longevity - will whatever format (or media) I use will available upwards of 10 years down the road. Never use the words hard drive and archival in the same sentence. I usually try not to but it seemed to fit. Hard drives can and do fail suddenly and without warning. See my comment about my 1+ year old hard drive dying (the one that's part of the RAID). That's why I don't trust just one hard drive. I want to be sure I've got a backup to my backup (and quite possibly a backup to that). On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Larry Sacks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to jump into the RAID vs No-RAID fray... but I seek a relatively easily managed data backup solution. I've got a photography business and am trying to keep photos from various shoots around. At this point, I'm mostly looking for the hardware answer. I'll worry about the software side of things down the road. I'm open to suggestions for data backup? I can't (or won't) rely on just 1 hard drive. DVD backups are a possibility, as are CD. I'm currently using about 200 or so gb disk space. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
That would be the normal state of events, but since the OS may 'touch' the drive occasinally it may not happen that often. Just turn it off (after properly stopping it). On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:18 PM, rlsimon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I back up my stuff to an external USB HDD ...it comes on with the computer ...is there a way to tell windows xp home sp3 to spin that drive down when not in use? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Never use the words hard drive and archival in the same sentence. Hard drives can and do fail suddenly and without warning. But much less frequently than they used to. Using a pair of hard drives should suffice. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=3 930502sku=S130-8032SRCCODE=WEM1693C 1tb free agent drive $169 ...not bad * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Data backup question
Which is why I specified 'drive' singular. As in this case, some things these days are just too large for optical media. In this case, a pair of drives, updated monthly and with alternates being kept off-premises, would serve. On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never use the words hard drive and archival in the same sentence. Hard drives can and do fail suddenly and without warning. But much less frequently than they used to. Using a pair of hard drives should suffice. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
