Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Joshua and EMael: Remember the promise to Teo.Be good boys and maintain the dignity and decorum of the CTRL. Meanwhile, Moo Moo is going to the War Protest. Moo Moo Jones DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: >There are actually many people who come to their conclusions on their >own. > -> >J2 <- just like josh here DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > >There is no freedom of the press. The press is a corporate tool and so is > the government. > > And they're the ones telling us guns are bad. Hmmmn. There are actually many people who come to their conclusions on their own. J2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- >There is no freedom of the press. The press is a corporate tool and so is the government. And they're the ones telling us guns are bad. Hmmmn. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Joshua2 Wrote: >Your a liar. >And an idiot. >Only to an idiot. >A hard working idiot. Well J2..your argument has just blown me out of the water. Such eloquence >OK. So you are saying that the choice should be for gun owners to >either >get rid of their guns, or commit suicide. I am not suggesting this at all. I am suggesting that the destruction of all human life on earth would be relatively simple when compared with collecting and destroying 10 billion + firearms. (I would love to bid on that contract) Guns are everywhere in abundance. Bad people are everywhere in abundance. Neither of these things are going to change...ever. Any solution must take both of these truths into account. >I thought my idea would be more reasonable and humane, but if you >insist... >I could get behind your suggestion. After all, that's what America is >all >about. Choice. >Joshua2 Calling me a liar and an idiot I can handle, but hard working!!! That is the last straw. Lets address each of your points on its merit. 1. 2. 3. oops...sorry..look like your arguments have no merit. O.K. Now that we have done that lets address the silly things that you have said. 1. idiot & liar. Mea culpa, mea maxima bloody culpa. You seem to have a big problem with other people having guns. Is this because you are afraid that your attitude that everyone who does not share you opinion is both a liar and an idiot might get you shot? I am afraid that it is the likes of you who make guns necessary. Lets face it...when the shit hits the fan where will you be??? Hiding under the bed waiting for someone with a gun to come and save you? Do you have a solution to the gun problem? And I don't mean a meaningless diatribe on the evils of people with guns. Give us a real solution. Also...if you can..I don't mind personal abuse if it is relevant. When it is not relevant it just makes you look incapable of sustaining your argument. Respond to my statements with some intelligent arguments and maybe we can have a reasonable debate on the subject. Your response to my post made no contribution to this discussion. Feel free to abuse me via my personal Email but please don't fill everyone elses mailboxes with silly opinions. But only one abusive Email per dissenting opinion please. Thanks. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Back to the perverbial name calling... hmm. ... >Let us please be civil and as always< [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>that's what America is all about. Choice. Joshua2<< Where have you been J2? "Choice" comes by and through FREEDOM and LIBERTY. And just where do you think freedom and liberty came from? Hm? I'll tell you where. It came from a lot of blood sweat and tears by people who cared about their own, and the many future generations of this great country. I dare say, without those who brandished weapons on this soil as well as many foreign soils, to maintain and fight for FREEDOM and LIBERTY... for those of us here in the great US of A, you would not be sitting comfortably in front of your computer screen right now. eagle1 -Original Message- From: nurev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2 > -Caveat Lector- > >Gary Amedee wrote: >> >> -Caveat Lector- >> >> Sorry Joshua2 but your blowing smoke. >> People with guns don't kill people. > >Your a liar. > >> I see people everyday who are in posession of guns and I >> haven't been killed once. > >And an idiot. > >> With regard to the hypothetical prison mentioned below... >> There are so few murders probably because of the fact that the >> prison officers HAVE SOME GUNS. Not because sharpening those >> spoons is such darn hard work. A sharpened spoon is another >> word for KNIFE. > >Only to an idiot. > >> Mass killings with knives DO happen. >> RAWANDA? EAST TIMOR? > >A hard working idiot. > >> >> So by your logic... >> >> Guns + people = death >> People + no guns = not quite as much death >> Guns + no people = No death > >This is indeed logical. > >> >> Lets get rid of the people! >> Most of us are arseholes anyway and wouldn't it be a lovely planet without >> people everywhere. > >OK. So you are saying that the choice should be for gun owners to >either >get rid of their guns, or commit suicide. > >I thought my idea would be more reasonable and humane, but if you >insist... >I could get behind your suggestion. After all, that's what America is >all >about. Choice. > >Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Teo One Thousand wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 6/2/99 6:26:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > Well let's assume that we are looking > > at an > > high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the > > gun > > deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill > > really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons > > just > > don't happen. > > > > The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove > > either one > > from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier > > to > > remove guns than people from the equation. > > > > That is why it will happen. > > > > Joshua2 > > > > I grant your point, even though, as you rightly say, yours is not a perfect > example. One must not forget, that in the environment that you have chosen > for your example there is a much greater degree of control over every action > of the prisoners. This is what keeps the death rate down to a great extent, > not JUST the lack of weapons, notably guns. I know that you do not advocate > this type of control on society in general so the analogy is flawed to some > extent. However, point taken and conceded. My own personal opinion on the > matter is that much more would be gained and in a better fashion if we attack > the root of much of the death's by shooting that occur. That is crime. > Decriminalizing drugs, and some other less drastic means than banning all gun > ownership, except for law enforcement, are effective, and necessary in my > opinion, things that could be done to reduce the violent crime rate, > especially death by gun. > Teo1000 The issue is much bigger than just crime. If crime stayed as it is and remained unchanged, or were magically solved as a societal problem, the rest of the problems related to guns would still warrant their removal from easy access. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- "Stopforth, Jamie" wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > I've heard from numerous people that shootings and crime is becoming a > trend due to the media it gets. Therefore it's done to gain attention... > How about removing the 1st amendment thus taking away the freedom of the > press so we can lower the crime rate, sounds easier to me. But heck no, the > press is the key tool in controlling the sheople. Can't you see it's what > "they" want? If the elitists want it, I don't. That's a pretty easy > philosophy to live by. > > Jamie > > > Well let's assume that we are looking > > at an > > high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the > > gun > > deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill > > really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons > > just > > don't happen. > > > > The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove > > either one > > from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier > > to > > remove guns than people from the equation. > > > > That is why it will happen. > > > > Joshua2 There is no freedom of the press. The press is a corporate tool and so is the government. No more red herrings eh guys. The problem is guns. Quit blaming every damn thing in the universe. The problem is easy access to too many guns. That's where the focus is right now and that's where the problem will be solved. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Gary Amedee wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > Sorry Joshua2 but your blowing smoke. > People with guns don't kill people. Your a liar. > I see people everyday who are in posession of guns and I > haven't been killed once. And an idiot. > With regard to the hypothetical prison mentioned below... > There are so few murders probably because of the fact that the > prison officers HAVE SOME GUNS. Not because sharpening those > spoons is such darn hard work. A sharpened spoon is another > word for KNIFE. Only to an idiot. > Mass killings with knives DO happen. > RAWANDA? EAST TIMOR? A hard working idiot. > > So by your logic... > > Guns + people = death > People + no guns = not quite as much death > Guns + no people = No death This is indeed logical. > > Lets get rid of the people! > Most of us are arseholes anyway and wouldn't it be a lovely planet without > people everywhere. OK. So you are saying that the choice should be for gun owners to either get rid of their guns, or commit suicide. I thought my idea would be more reasonable and humane, but if you insist... I could get behind your suggestion. After all, that's what America is all about. Choice. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Nope, not in America. Of course we can't say for sure, but that's where my bet is. Yep, people with guns of course occasionally kill people. I'm excluding from the equation all forms of government -- in which you seem to have so much inherent faith -- whose guns have always killed people in ASTRONOMICAL proportions compared to day-to-day murders & other crimes, or even mass-murdering psychotics on ritalin. However, the number of DEFENSIVE uses of guns -- many of which entail merely showing the weapon without a shot ever being fired -- far, FAR outweighs the number of perpetrators. www.nvcdl.org - Lyn > -Original Message- > From: nurev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove > either one > from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier > to > remove guns than people from the equation. > > That is why it will happen. > > Joshua2 > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: > I've heard from numerous people that shootings and crime is becoming a >trend due to the media it gets. Therefore it's done to gain attention... >How about removing the 1st amendment thus taking away the freedom of the >press so we can lower the crime rate, sounds easier to me. But heck no, >the >press is the key tool in controlling the sheople. Can't you see it's what >"they" want? If the elitists want it, I don't. That's a pretty easy >philosophy to live by. > >Jamie many times these crimes are done in broad daylight so maybe we should blot out the sun but no; light is how we see and what we can see we can know and that is exactly what they want us to do so they won't be blotting out the sun for us either. oh the crime, oh the humanity; there ought to be another law. counting with my eyes closed DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Amelia Edgeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > From: Ric Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > From: Gary Amedee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Lets get rid of the people! Most of us are arseholes anyway > > > and wouldn't it be a lovely planet without people everywhere. > > > > Good idea. Let's start with blondes. > > I represent that statement! Was that another > one of those blonde jokes? I would've said, "Let's start with gun-owners", but I feared being shot. Also, I'm currently a gun-owner, so that wouldn't have served my best interests. At one time I was blonde, but I reformed, so it's safe [for me] to target blondes. But we can start almost anywhere. Serbs, surfers, serfs, CPAs, truckers, televangelists, UFOlogists, Scientologists, Libertarians, geeks, conspiratorialists, Wobblies, smokers, dwarves, any identifiable group will do. Once targeted, members of the selected group[s] would be encouraged to convert/reform, at least outwardly. For precedent, see the Spanish Inquisition. Rev. RN "I am not a geek" Carter, ULC DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Gary Amedee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Lets get rid of the people! > Most of us are arseholes anyway and wouldn't it be a lovely planet > without people everywhere. Good idea. Let's start with blondes. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Sorry Joshua2 but your blowing smoke. People with guns don't kill people. I see people everyday who are in posession of guns and I haven't been killed once. With regard to the hypothetical prison mentioned below... There are so few murders probably because of the fact that the prison officers HAVE SOME GUNS. Not because sharpening those spoons is such darn hard work. A sharpened spoon is another word for KNIFE. Mass killings with knives DO happen. RAWANDA? EAST TIMOR? So by your logic... Guns + people = death People + no guns = not quite as much death Guns + no people = No death Lets get rid of the people! Most of us are arseholes anyway and wouldn't it be a lovely planet without people everywhere. > Well let's assume that we are looking > at an > high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the > gun > deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill > really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons > just > don't happen. > > The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove > either one > from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier > to > remove guns than people from the equation. > > That is why it will happen. > > Joshua2 > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- I've heard from numerous people that shootings and crime is becoming a trend due to the media it gets. Therefore it's done to gain attention... How about removing the 1st amendment thus taking away the freedom of the press so we can lower the crime rate, sounds easier to me. But heck no, the press is the key tool in controlling the sheople. Can't you see it's what "they" want? If the elitists want it, I don't. That's a pretty easy philosophy to live by. Jamie > Well let's assume that we are looking > at an > high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the > gun > deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill > really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons > just > don't happen. > > The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove > either one > from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier > to > remove guns than people from the equation. > > That is why it will happen. > > Joshua2 > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 6/2/99 6:26:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Well let's assume that we are looking > at an > high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the > gun > deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill > really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons > just > don't happen. > > The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove > either one > from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier > to > remove guns than people from the equation. > > That is why it will happen. > > Joshua2 > I grant your point, even though, as you rightly say, yours is not a perfect example. One must not forget, that in the environment that you have chosen for your example there is a much greater degree of control over every action of the prisoners. This is what keeps the death rate down to a great extent, not JUST the lack of weapons, notably guns. I know that you do not advocate this type of control on society in general so the analogy is flawed to some extent. However, point taken and conceded. My own personal opinion on the matter is that much more would be gained and in a better fashion if we attack the root of much of the death's by shooting that occur. That is crime. Decriminalizing drugs, and some other less drastic means than banning all gun ownership, except for law enforcement, are effective, and necessary in my opinion, things that could be done to reduce the violent crime rate, especially death by gun. Teo1000 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Teo One Thousand wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 6/1/99 7:03:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > We have. The majority of American prisoners are nonviolent offenders (i.e. > > drug users). > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: nurev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Look at a prison. > > > > > > J2 > > > > > > > I think Joshua's point is that there are no gun deaths in prison. He used it > to support his argument that gun control is good and means less murder. In > prison though there are NO weapons so it is not a really good example, IMO. > Deaths do occur though, so whatever serves the purpose at the time will > suffice, be it a shiv, a sharpened spoon, or fists. > Teo1000 By George I think he's got it. Yes TK that was my point. Though it is imperfect, it is a response to the specious argument that guns don't kill people, criminals kill people. Well let's assume that we are looking at an high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the gun deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons just don't happen. The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove either one from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier to remove guns than people from the equation. That is why it will happen. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 6/1/99 7:03:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > We have. The majority of American prisoners are nonviolent offenders (i.e. > drug users). > > > -Original Message- > > From: nurev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Look at a prison. > > > > J2 > > > I think Joshua's point is that there are no gun deaths in prison. He used it to support his argument that gun control is good and means less murder. In prison though there are NO weapons so it is not a really good example, IMO. Deaths do occur though, so whatever serves the purpose at the time will suffice, be it a shiv, a sharpened spoon, or fists. Teo1000 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- >In fact, a number of books, one by a professor at Florida State University, has proven your statement incorrect. There is more than ample proof that the death rate goes up when gun ownership Read by John R. Lott Jr. ISBN 0-226-49363-6. It'll open your eyes. Consider Table 5.4 on page 104. "Crime and county data on concealed-handgun permits: Pennsylvania counties with populations greater than 200,000" Percent of change in the crime rate due to a one percent change in then number of right-to-carry permits/population over 21 between 1988 and each year since the law was implimented: Violent crime: -5.3% Murder: -26.7% Rape: -5.7% Aggravated assault: -4.8% Robbery: 1.2% Property crime: -0.12% Auto theft: 1.5% Burglary: -1.4% Larceny: 0.7% Percent of change in the crime rate due to a one percent change in the arrest rate for the crime catagory: Violent crime: -0.79% Murder: -0.37% Rape: -0.08% Aggravated assault: -0.76% Robbery: -0.84% Property crime: -0.41% Auto theft: -0.065% Burglary: -1.1% Larceny: 0.13% That's one page. The book is 220 pages long. Read every one of 'em. Clearly an armed populace has a greater effect on crime than does an armed constabulary. What else does this tell us about the failure of our comparatively recent experiment with palming off the collective duty of every citizen, every human, to protect each other onto a tiny handful of corrupt, cowardly, mercenary goons who don't even do the job? After a century and a half of progressively increasing failure, it's time to learn waht the expiriment has to teach, call it quits and to go back to the tried and true way, armed citizens. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- We have. The majority of American prisoners are nonviolent offenders (i.e. drug users). > -Original Message- > From: nurev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Look at a prison. > > J2 > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: >These stupid NRA arguments don't cut it anymore. You are now fighting >a >rearguard defensive action, and you think your in some kind of strong >position. >YOU ARE NOT. > >Everything has changed. > >Joshua2 not quite, bellybutton lint. the idiot takes the position that the problem is the guns and that is the low road and will get run down everytime it pops up its widdle head. guns are not the issue at all. your assignment, if you can take a challenge is: tell us what the real issue is; i know what it is and a lot of others do too, you seem to be the only one who does not know. read the previous post that i am responding to here. you accepted a sarcastic smear as a compliment. guess it don't take much to make you happy. that says it all. "joshua", isn't that name just delicious. p.s.; if you are going to attempt to slur me; PLEASE, PLEASE get some new material, this forth grade school yard stuff has gotten real old. you don't get around much, do you? smilin DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > >The fact is that people with guns kill, and when you take them away, the > death rate drops like a rock. > > You SAY it's a fact, but you cite no proof. Look at a prison. J2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- Liz Schumacher wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > without the 2nd amendment, the first is useless, and unenforceable > josh, u may know everything about everything, but when you grow up, you just > may feel differently--but maybe not--but who gives a wild rip anyhow? > liz > Well, I'm very flattered that you think I know everything about everything. Unfortunately it's not the case. I only know something about most things. But I do know this, if pro gun people don't wake up and see that the US has changed after Littleton, you all will see drastic changes in the status of gun ownership. Now, that's OK with me, but you people need to get smart. These stupid NRA arguments don't cut it anymore. You are now fighting a rearguard defensive action, and you think your in some kind of strong position. YOU ARE NOT. Everything has changed. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- Eagle 1 wrote: What is it with guns? Guns don't kill anyone. nurev wrote: You are a liar! MJ: If you and I sat in a room (or you sat alone) with a gun on the table ... at what point does the gun shoot you or I? Regard$, --MJ I am convinced that we can do to guns what we've done to drugs: create a multi-billion dollar underground market over which we have absolutely no control. -- George L. Roman DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."3/3
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-05-27 16:48:33 EDT, you write: << avin Phillips wrote: snip> > >> According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban > > > >Yes that's right. And voluntary compliance from law abiding citizens. > >It > >doesn't need to be permanent either. But I want to see what happens > >when > >guns are out of the equation. And it looks like we'll soon find out. > > > Gavin; > > How soon do you think? Depends on the economy. > >> social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far > more > >> peacful then, right Nurev? > > > >No not then, after then. > > > > Gavin; > > After the carnage, and a country more divided than it has ever been. Oh, now > I get it. There I go with my predictions again. I just wonder how many others > on the list agree with my predictions as opposed to yours; of a kinder, > gentler America, disarmed. America has never been kind or gentle. It has been a murderous offshoot ( pun intended ) of the most violent culture in all the world in all of history > Gavin; > > There you go bringing your Darwinian religion into it again. Isn't it great > to have the crutch and faith of Darwinian evolution to give you all the > answers. Makes things far less complicated. Please, stop making a fool of yourself. I am an atheist. What you are describing is religion. Gavin; As I have pointed out, belief in Darwinian evolution requires faith also. There is no proof for macroevolution. > >> Gavin; snip> > I take it you would live as a slave, and wait for better men than you to free > you. You think you're the smart one, the survivor, right? Listen buddy. You really need to understand this. In nature, the organism that survives intact enough to reproduce is the winner. If you are stupid enough to piss your life away for stupid ideologies, you lose. That is why the slogan " live free or die " is insane. It is unnatural and wasteful of human potential. But if live free or die causes you to die because you can't live free, then you can understand the process of natural selection. Gavin; As I said earlier, natural selection is a tautology which has never been proven. It has no informative value whatsoever. There are 40 million Blacks in America. Their ancestors were slaves for hundreds of years. They endured and endured the brutality of slavery. Real slavery, not your feverish apocalyptic paranoiac nonsense. They are here today enjoying life because their ancestors did what they needed to do to survive. If their ancestors had been as dumb as you are, and dumb as the religio/patriot types I see quoted on this list, we would never have the pleasure of watching Bill Cosby sell sugared up junk food to little children. Gavin; Your definition of dumb is to fight for freedom and maybe die because of it rather than live as a slave and endure the degradations, humiliations, beatings, rapes and whatever else your owner decides to impose on you until for some reason or other you get your freedom, however long that takes, if you ever get it at all. Sounds very "smart" to me. What about other people who do not agree with your cowering nature and overthrow the people subjugating them and in the process also free you. Do you thank them for risking their lives to free themselves and others or do you stay true to your philosophy and tell them what idiots they are for risking their lives and not waiting it out? What about prisoners of war trying to escape from prison and getting killed, I suppose they are also dumb. The "smart" thing to do is wait it out and piss your life away hopeing for one of the miracles you've stated above or when somebody else might risk their life to rescue or free you. > >> Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others > fought > >> for it. How about buying your way out? How about if the slave owners can't afford to keep slaves? How about if the slave owner suddenly becomes a mentch and frees his slaves because it's wrong to own human beings? Do you ever stop exaggerating? Gavin; Buy your way out, what with? Who says they are going to pay you? Feeding slaves is really costly when you can get them to work there ass off for you for just food and water. People who own slaves in the first place are usually not known for their philanthropy. What you are advocating is cowardice and dressing it up as some kind of smart evolutionary philosophy which is totally bogus. Being a human being means more than just surviving to leave some offspring you moron. It means to try and make a better world for tomorrow than we have today. It means to further our understanding of our world free of dogma and bigotry. It is having the courage to stand up for what you believe in. There are risks large and small associated with everything we do. Life without any risk at all is a useless and unfullfillled life. A
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay." 2/3
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-05-27 16:48:32 EDT, you write: << >> > >> Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above > cases, > >> or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive > >> government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it. > > > >I'm not doubting government malfeasance. I'm doubting your judgment. > >Not all these pet paranoias are facts either. The reason I answered yes to > all > >your your examples of paranoid foolishness is because they have nothing to > >do with YOU. > > > > Yes they are facts. You can deny them till you're blue in the face.Ask > Charles Key about OKC, if you can be bothered. Bu then again, if what he says > doesn't fit your dogma you'll dismiss it just like everything else that is > contrary to your mindset. You are so simple minded that you think that those > incidents do not > effect me or others? Are you that stupid? Do you think Waco hasn't greatly > exacerbated people's fears about the government? They have everything to do > with me when the government kills people because maybe I am next. That is > not paranoid delusions, that is facing facts. Why would you be next? Gavin; Stupid question. Ask the surviving Branch Davidians if they thought they were next. Ask the woman at Ruby Ridge who got shot in the face if she thought she was going to be next. Ask the woman in Salisaw Oklahoma who got shot through the arm, nearly blowing it off, when the cops raided her house for drugs finding nothing, if she thought she was next, ad infinitum. > > >> Gavin; > >> > >> I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters. > > > >I hoped this was a joke but it's not. The term " true believer," is > >rooted > >in religion. It means that you are blinded by your belief system. > > Gavin; > Au contrair, what about your Darwinian evolution religious belief system? Darwinian evolution does not require belief. It is a common observable fact. It is unfortunate for you that you can't make the same claims for your " religious matters." Gavin; I will get to punctuated equilibrium later. Lets deal with Darwinism first which is what most biologists adhere to, including one of the most pre-eminent evolutionists of them all, Oxford University's Stephen Dawkins. Darwinian evolution does require belief because it has never been observed or repeated in a laboratory. When I talk about Darwinnian evolution I am referring to macroevolution as opposed to microevolution which is what you are talking about. Microevolution refers to birds getting longer beaks, animals slightly modifying their shape in order to help them catch prey or avoid being eaten. These changes are factual and observable. The hypothesis of macroevolution is when one species totally changes into another species, fish to reptiles, reptiles to birds, monkey to man. This has never been observed or proven in a laboratory because it supposedly happens over billions of years. Darwinian macroevolution requires 1000's of minute random mutations in order to go from one species to another. This is when Darwin embarrassed himself when he wrote in the first edition of The Origin of Species; quote page 162 "The Facts of Life" by Richard Milton "I can see no difficulty in a race of bears being rendered, by natural selection, more and more aquatic in their habits, with larger and larger mouths, till a creature was produced as monstrous as a whale." In later editions he ommitted this. Nonetheless, this is what Darwinian macroevolution is saying. Darwinists speculated that if a Finch could change the size of it's beak in order to adapt to it's island home, then maybe by the same process one species could change into a completely different species. One of the major problems with this hypothesis is that the genetic code for whales is not present in bears, the genetic code for reptiles is not present in fish, etc. Further, when man has selectively bred domesticated animals such as dogs, cats there are strict limitations as to what is possible. You can get a dog as big as a Great Dane or as small as a chihuahua. You cannot make a dog as small as a mouse or as big as a horse. After so much inbreeding the line goes sterile. The biologists favorite insect, Drosophils, the fruit fly,which has a very short gestational period of a month, for all the tens of thousands of offspring that have been manipulated by man, not random mutation as in Darwinism, all they have is a fruit fly. They have got fruit fly's with more hairs, or bigger fruit fly's, after a while they go sterile. Darwin said; "This preservation of favourable individual differences and variations, and the destruction of those which are injurious, I have called natural selection, or the survival of the fittest." But, as Milton says in The Facts of Life page 147 "As natural selection or differential reproduction is such an impor
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- remember the "Luby's" massacre a few years ago?? one of the women survivors had been carrying till THAT DAY--she watched her mom and dad get shot in the head. if she had been carrying, that WOULD NOT have happened liz DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > >The fact is that people with guns kill, and when you take them away, the > death rate drops like a rock. > > You SAY it's a fact, but you cite no proof. In fact, a number of books, one by a professor at Florida State University, has proven your statement incorrect. There is more than ample proof that the death rate goes up when gun ownership goes down! Jim > > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- without the 2nd amendment, the first is useless, and unenforceable josh, u may know everything about everything, but when you grow up, you just may feel differently--but maybe not--but who gives a wild rip anyhow? liz DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Eagle 1 wrote: > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > What is it with guns? > > Guns don't kill anyone. > > You are a liar! Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Either support your argument with facts or stop wasting bandwith. Jim Norman > > > > The person who pulls the trigger is the responsible party here. > > This is all about responsibility. > > No it's NOT about responsibility it's about unnecessary deaths. Socialism all the way. You sir are espousing a communist/socialist point of view. > > > Not about children getting their > > hands on guns. Parents, teachers, and other care givers are > > responsible for passing on valid information to children. Adults > > who purchase guns are expected to act as responsible adults. > > Unfortunately, we have come into a time where adults do not > > believe that they are liable. How did this happen? > > That's not the point. I have been saying all along, that Americans > are not mature enough to be trusted with guns. That is why they > should be banned. The sooner the better. > > > > > Here are some other thoughts: > > Scenario #1: > > I have a gas stove. I may choose to leave the gas on and asphyxiate > > someone I don't like. What? Do we now ban natural gas, > > because it became a 'lethal weapon'? The gas did the > > dirty deed? So ban it... right? > > > > Scenario #2: > > I see someone I decide I want to do away with... the only > > way I can find to do this is to run them over with my car. > > Ban the car, therefore, because it has become a lethal weapon... > > right? > > > > Scenario #3: > > I may choose to pick up a large rock, > > and bludgeon someone to death. > > The rock then becomes a lethal weapon. > > Which did the damage? The rock? > > The rock did the damage, therefore we outlaw rocks? > > Right? > > > > This is obviously getting to the ludicrous. But I think anyone > > can see the point to be made here. If guns are banned, what > > will it be next? Kitchen knives? Automobiles? Rocks? > > C'mon! > > Yeah, I see the point. You are a phony and a liar. These examples are > idiotic in the extreme. Rocks and cars were not designed to kill. > Anything can be used to kill, but guns are for killing. A " Slippery > Slope " argument does not really stand up to actual gun deaths. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Slandering your opponent is NOT a effective debating technique. It only exposes the fact that you have run out of substance. It also illustrates a lack of respect or manners. > > > > > > Banning guns is not going to resolve the problem. Locks on guns are > > an absolute waste of money as well as time. If someone is breaking > > into my house, with the intent and immediate threat to kill a member > > of my household, I don't want to have to fumble around to find a key, > > to unlock my defense. I want my defense immediate. And since I'm > > not in the habit of wearing a bullet proof vest day in and day out, the > > only way to fight back is to fight fire with fire. Fire power, that is. > > No gun locks? No guns. You guys are cutting your own throats and your > playing right into our hands. You are not in a position to argue about > restrictions any more. Unless you clowns get smart, you will lose your > guns. Total ban! Assuming that through a Con Con, the Federal Constitution is amended to eliminate guns, how long do you think YOUR liberty would last? (Assuming you desire liberty.) > > > > > > Safe use of guns will help, but still will not resolve the problem overall. > > Leaving the Constitution alone, and as it stands is what the forefathers > > intended; bearing arms for personal protection, not for murder. > > There will be amendments to the 2nd Amendment. It is outdated. > > Not without a Constitutional Convention. > > Banning guns is definitely not the answer. > > > > Education and RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR is. > > Yeah right that's the solution. And it's much easier to change > society's > behavior than to ban guns. Right? I think you got it now. Keep that thought in your mind. > > > > > > Laws, if there are any to be improved upon, should be sending a very > > serious message to the general public that irresponsible use of firearms > > is not acceptable and is not tolerated in a civil society. > > Following through with appropriate penal codes should be the mandate. > > Guns will be banned because gun nuts live in the past. You are my best > ally. There are no gun nuts. There is only ANTI-gun nuts. And you are the socialist poster child. Keep up the good work! Jim Norman > > > Keep up the good work. > > Joshua2 > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright > frauds is used politica
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- >The fact is that people with guns kill, and when you take them away, the death rate drops like a rock. You SAY it's a fact, but you cite no proof. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- Is name calling really necessary? The liars are those who do not believe that PEOPLE pull the trigger. The gun does not operate by itself. face the facts... Unnecessary deaths? Like I said, this would be laughable if it weren't such a serious issue. PEOPLE who are criminally minded are going to use a weapon durogatorily, regardless of gun laws, regardless of banning... they will find some way to commit murder, because they have an obsession with it. Ask Cain. He didn't have a gun. Yet he managed to kill his own brother. Murder was the the first sin committed against humanity and it's not going to stop until PEOPLE accept the fact that there are rules, laws and regulations to be followed. Evidentally the forefathers gave Americans the benefit of the doubt that they were 'mature' enough to handle firearms. So much so that they wrote it into the Constitution. The Constitution was based on Biblical Law and should remain. Landmarks should not be removed. You are entitled to your opinion, Joshua2, but calling someone a 'liar' just because you disagree is pretty immature in itself. At this point, I consider the source here. You are right about one thing, someone like you would be too immature to handle a firearm. Your own words speak for themselves. Loud and clear. I remain, no gun control, no banning regarding firearms. eagle 1 -Original Message- From: nurev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay. > -Caveat Lector- > >Eagle 1 wrote: >> >> -Caveat Lector- >> >> What is it with guns? >> Guns don't kill anyone. > >You are a liar! > >> The person who pulls the trigger is the responsible party here. >> This is all about responsibility. > >No it's NOT about responsibility it's about unnecessary deaths. > >Not about children getting their >> hands on guns. Parents, teachers, and other care givers are >> responsible for passing on valid information to children. Adults >> who purchase guns are expected to act as responsible adults. >> Unfortunately, we have come into a time where adults do not >> believe that they are liable. How did this happen? > >That's not the point. I have been saying all along, that Americans >are not mature enough to be trusted with guns. That is why they >should be banned. The sooner the better. > >> >> Here are some other thoughts: >> Scenario #1: >> I have a gas stove. I may choose to leave the gas on and asphyxiate >> someone I don't like. What? Do we now ban natural gas, >> because it became a 'lethal weapon'? The gas did the >> dirty deed? So ban it... right? >> >> Scenario #2: >> I see someone I decide I want to do away with... the only >> way I can find to do this is to run them over with my car. >> Ban the car, therefore, because it has become a lethal weapon... >> right? >> >> Scenario #3: >> I may choose to pick up a large rock, >> and bludgeon someone to death. >> The rock then becomes a lethal weapon. >> Which did the damage? The rock? >> The rock did the damage, therefore we outlaw rocks? >> Right? >> >> This is obviously getting to the ludicrous. But I think anyone >> can see the point to be made here. If guns are banned, what >> will it be next? Kitchen knives? Automobiles? Rocks? >> C'mon! > >Yeah, I see the point. You are a phony and a liar. These examples are >idiotic in the extreme. Rocks and cars were not designed to kill. >Anything can be used to kill, but guns are for killing. A " Slippery >Slope " argument does not really stand up to actual gun deaths. > >> >> Banning guns is not going to resolve the problem. Locks on guns are >> an absolute waste of money as well as time. If someone is breaking >> into my house, with the intent and immediate threat to kill a member >> of my household, I don't want to have to fumble around to find a key, >> to unlock my defense. I want my defense immediate. And since I'm >> not in the habit of wearing a bullet proof vest day in and day out, the >> only way to fight back is to fight fire with fire. Fire power, that is. > >No gun locks? No guns. You guys are cutting your own throats and your >playing right into our hands. You are not in a position to argue about >restrictions any more. Unless you clowns get smart, you will lose your >guns. Total ban! > >> >> Safe use of guns will help, but still will not resolve the problem overall. >> Leaving the Constitution alone, and as it stand
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > >Before we ban guns all together > > It is physically impossible to ban guns. The genii is out of the bottle. > All the laws in the world can't put it back in. Not a problem at all. > > What we must do is create a world in which the use of guns, or of any > other tool, to oppress others in any way is unthinkable because the > oppression of others is unthinkable in and of itself, with tools or > without. Such a world cannot be created with guns and such a world cannot > be created without guns. That's just beautiful. Such a world is our only hope because this world, > the world we have today, will otherwise destroy us and in the meantime is > a prison. There are no guns in prison just killers without guns. Killers without guns are very inefficient, and therefore there are very few deaths due to gunshot wounds in a population of killers. This is a refutation to that moronic, idiotic ditty " guns don't kill, people kill. " The fact is that people with guns kill, and when you take them away, the death rate drops like a rock. Bye bye Mr. Smith Bye bye Mr. Wesson Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- Eagle 1 wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > What is it with guns? > Guns don't kill anyone. You are a liar! > The person who pulls the trigger is the responsible party here. > This is all about responsibility. No it's NOT about responsibility it's about unnecessary deaths. Not about children getting their > hands on guns. Parents, teachers, and other care givers are > responsible for passing on valid information to children. Adults > who purchase guns are expected to act as responsible adults. > Unfortunately, we have come into a time where adults do not > believe that they are liable. How did this happen? That's not the point. I have been saying all along, that Americans are not mature enough to be trusted with guns. That is why they should be banned. The sooner the better. > > Here are some other thoughts: > Scenario #1: > I have a gas stove. I may choose to leave the gas on and asphyxiate > someone I don't like. What? Do we now ban natural gas, > because it became a 'lethal weapon'? The gas did the > dirty deed? So ban it... right? > > Scenario #2: > I see someone I decide I want to do away with... the only > way I can find to do this is to run them over with my car. > Ban the car, therefore, because it has become a lethal weapon... > right? > > Scenario #3: > I may choose to pick up a large rock, > and bludgeon someone to death. > The rock then becomes a lethal weapon. > Which did the damage? The rock? > The rock did the damage, therefore we outlaw rocks? > Right? > > This is obviously getting to the ludicrous. But I think anyone > can see the point to be made here. If guns are banned, what > will it be next? Kitchen knives? Automobiles? Rocks? > C'mon! Yeah, I see the point. You are a phony and a liar. These examples are idiotic in the extreme. Rocks and cars were not designed to kill. Anything can be used to kill, but guns are for killing. A " Slippery Slope " argument does not really stand up to actual gun deaths. > > Banning guns is not going to resolve the problem. Locks on guns are > an absolute waste of money as well as time. If someone is breaking > into my house, with the intent and immediate threat to kill a member > of my household, I don't want to have to fumble around to find a key, > to unlock my defense. I want my defense immediate. And since I'm > not in the habit of wearing a bullet proof vest day in and day out, the > only way to fight back is to fight fire with fire. Fire power, that is. No gun locks? No guns. You guys are cutting your own throats and your playing right into our hands. You are not in a position to argue about restrictions any more. Unless you clowns get smart, you will lose your guns. Total ban! > > Safe use of guns will help, but still will not resolve the problem overall. > Leaving the Constitution alone, and as it stands is what the forefathers > intended; bearing arms for personal protection, not for murder. There will be amendments to the 2nd Amendment. It is outdated. > Banning guns is definitely not the answer. > > Education and RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR is. Yeah right that's the solution. And it's much easier to change society's behavior than to ban guns. Right? > > Laws, if there are any to be improved upon, should be sending a very > serious message to the general public that irresponsible use of firearms > is not acceptable and is not tolerated in a civil society. > Following through with appropriate penal codes should be the mandate. Guns will be banned because gun nuts live in the past. You are my best ally. Keep up the good work. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay." 1/2
-Caveat Lector- > Drugs are addictive Some are and some are not. And those that are, so what? it's none of your damn business what somebody else does with their own body. In point of fact, I myself have been a drug addict for nearly forty years and as far as I can tell it's done me nothing but good. Of course I'm lucky in that my drug of choice, caffiene, happens to be legal. Were that not the case I'd do it anyway. So would most caffiene addicts. > Drugs relieve pain, Some do and some don't. All drugs are not the same. I strongly suggest that you study up on the subject before you spout off like an ignorant fool. >Yes there very well might be a black market in guns. That's OK. That means guns will be harder to get than they are now. That's not OK. That means that guns would (NOT will) be harder to get for the law abiders, ie. the victims of armed predators. >And that's OK too. I take it you've never been raped, have you? >So the prisons will fill with gun dealers and illegal owners. (1.) That ain't gonna happen. What would happen is a bloody civil war. We'd win. We have overwhelming numerical superiority and superb position. (2.) But if it did happen, the grave yards would fill even faster with the unarmed victims of violent predators. >If guns become like drugs in the society, that would be a vast improvement over going down the street to buy a lethal weapon as if it were a toaster. What makes an inanimate object, be it a gun or a toaster or whatever, a weapon, is the use to which it is put. Except for a miniscule fraction of a percent, most guns are not lethal weapons. They're glorified paper hole punchers, nothing more. They have the potential to be used as lethal weapons, but so do toasters. The variable is not the object itself, but the action of a human being. Before you criticise the superstitions of others you really ought to outgrow in your own animism. Objects are objects. They have no intrinsic purpose outside of that to which their human animators put them. A toaster can be a weapon if that is the purpose to which it is put. A gun can be a paper weight; the one on my desk is the proof. It can also be a very effective lethal weapon should the occassion arise, a fact which gives me immeasurable peace of mind. At the moment I don't need a lethal weapon; I do need a paper weight. But should the occasion arise that I do need a lethal weapon I'd far rather have one than not have one. By relying on a gun and not a toaster I don't have to talk an attacker into standing in the tub while I run it full of water and toss in the toaster. I feel that this is a wise choice on my part. If you doubt my wisdom, attack me and see what happens. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- Gavin Phillips wrote: snip> > >> According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban > > > >Yes that's right. And voluntary compliance from law abiding citizens. > >It > >doesn't need to be permanent either. But I want to see what happens > >when > >guns are out of the equation. And it looks like we'll soon find out. > > > Gavin; > > How soon do you think? Depends on the economy. > >> social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far > more > >> peacful then, right Nurev? > > > >No not then, after then. > > > > Gavin; > > After the carnage, and a country more divided than it has ever been. Oh, now > I get it. There I go with my predictions again. I just wonder how many others > on the list agree with my predictions as opposed to yours; of a kinder, > gentler America, disarmed. America has never been kind or gentle. It has been a murderous offshoot ( pun intended ) of the most violent culture in all the world in all of history > Gavin; > > There you go bringing your Darwinian religion into it again. Isn't it great > to have the crutch and faith of Darwinian evolution to give you all the > answers. Makes things far less complicated. Please, stop making a fool of yourself. I am an atheist. What you are describing is religion. > >> Gavin; snip> > I take it you would live as a slave, and wait for better men than you to free > you. You think you're the smart one, the survivor, right? Listen buddy. You really need to understand this. In nature, the organism that survives intact enough to reproduce is the winner. If you are stupid enough to piss your life away for stupid ideologies, you lose. That is why the slogan " live free or die " is insane. It is unnatural and wasteful of human potential. But if live free or die causes you to die because you can't live free, then you can understand the process of natural selection. There are 40 million Blacks in America. Their ancestors were slaves for hundreds of years. They endured and endured the brutality of slavery. Real slavery, not your feverish apocalyptic paranoiac nonsense. They are here today enjoying life because their ancestors did what they needed to do to survive. If their ancestors had been as dumb as you are, and dumb as the religio/patriot types I see quoted on this list, we would never have the pleasure of watching Bill Cosby sell sugared up junk food to little children. > >> Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others > fought > >> for it. How about buying your way out? How about if the slave owners can't afford to keep slaves? How about if the slave owner suddenly becomes a mentch and frees his slaves because it's wrong to own human beings? Do you ever stop exaggerating? Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay." 1/2
-Caveat Lector- > >> > >> Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above > cases, > >> or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive > >> government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it. > > > >I'm not doubting government malfeasance. I'm doubting your judgment. > >Not all these pet paranoias are facts either. The reason I answered yes to > all > >your your examples of paranoid foolishness is because they have nothing to > >do with YOU. > > > > Yes they are facts. You can deny them till you're blue in the face.Ask > Charles Key about OKC, if you can be bothered. Bu then again, if what he says > doesn't fit your dogma you'll dismiss it just like everything else that is > contrary to your mindset. You are so simple minded that you think that those > incidents do not > effect me or others? Are you that stupid? Do you think Waco hasn't greatly > exacerbated people's fears about the government? They have everything to do > with me when the government kills people because maybe I am next. That is > not paranoid delusions, that is facing facts. Why would you be next? > > >> Gavin; > >> > >> I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters. > > > >I hoped this was a joke but it's not. The term " true believer," is > >rooted > >in religion. It means that you are blinded by your belief system. > > Gavin; > Au contrair, what about your Darwinian evolution religious belief system? Darwinian evolution does not require belief. It is a common observable fact. It is unfortunate for you that you can't make the same claims for your " religious matters." > >> Stop making > >> assumptions. I have never shot or owned a gun in my life. > > > >I'll say it again. It's not that the government's propaganda has > >fooled silly > >me into thinking that Americans should be disarmed. I HAVE COME TO > >THAT CONCLUSION ON MY VERY OWN. I don't think Americans are sane, mature, > >or responsible enough to own guns. So if the government thinks that way > >too for whatever nefarious reason, I DON'T CARE! At this point in time > armed > >Americans are more of a threat to all of us stuck with each other, than the > >government.In your paranoid world ,it's the government that's the biggest > threat. > >In my world, its way too many guns in the hands of way too many people that > >is the threat. I DON'T have to buy in to your paranoia. > > Gavin; > But "silly you" is using the governments rhetoric and demogoguery after > tragedies such as Colombine to help ban guns. Does "silly you" think that > some of these events could have been staged by our "friends" in government so > as to have further > excuses to ban guns. NO! And that's why I think you're a paranoid loony. > > >The reason this is paranoid lunacy, is because, it's a sexy and > >dramatic story, > >IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. > > > Gavin; > Once again you wade in with total drivel and your favorite word, "paranoia." > It has everything to do with me. Does anything effect you Nurev, except > trying to make a credible argument and having to work with frazzled brain > cells? > snip> > >And they are changing their minds in my direction. Every shooting and > >massacre > >will be another nail in the coffin of the NRA. > > Gavin > My point is, wow it's really dense in here,(read it s-l-o-w-l-y) people will > rapidly change their opinion if the body count gets to high. W-h-a-t b-o-d-y c-o-u-n-t l-o-o-n-y b-i-r-d ? The only body count that is changing people's minds here on planet Earth, are gun related deaths. And more people want less guns. > > > >> If the time ever came when the government passed a law > >> to ban all weapons and there were hundreds of Wacos going on, you might > find > >> their opinion rapidly changing. Don't count on support from sheep. They > go > >> wherever public opinion and emotion herds them. > > > >They go wherever they see safety for their children. And that's OK > >because > >that's their job. They are coming to the conclusion that there is easy > >access to > >guns, and it's now scaring them. > > > Gavin; > The government is scaring them, along with the mainstream media whores. > Whipping them up into a tizzy, and it's okay by you because the end > justifies the means, right? It's more than OK by me. > > >> > You so quickly forget history's many lessons of dictators disarming the > >> > citizenry only to be followed by genocide. What about the Warsaw > uprising in > >> > which a handful of Jews took on and held their own for quite some time > >> > against the Nazis' s after they had managed to obtain some firearms. snip> > >The Jews died. But what does this have to do with YOU? > >I am not a Statist. If I were I would say so. I don't consider it an > >insult. I > >consider Libertarianism to be an insult. And I'm not against human > >rights. In > >fact, I spend much of my ti
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- Amen. Here's another point I heard recently... Gun's aren't the problem because they have been around for a LONG time. Guns weren't invented at the time these school shootings took place. Obviously it's not the guns that are the problem. It's the common denominator that's the same in every criminal action. People. Jamie What is it with guns? Guns don't kill anyone. The person who pulls the trigger is the responsible party here. This is all about responsibility. Not about children getting their hands on guns. Parents, teachers, and other care givers are responsible for passing on valid information to children. Adults who purchase guns are expected to act as responsible adults. Unfortunately, we have come into a time where adults do not believe that they are liable. How did this happen? Ask your local chapter of the Illuminati, or the local mafia. They might know how this all came about, if you don't already know. Here are some other thoughts: Scenario #1: I have a gas stove. I may choose to leave the gas on and asphyxiate someone I don't like. What? Do we now ban natural gas, because it became a 'lethal weapon'? The gas did the dirty deed? So ban it... right? Scenario #2: I see someone I decide I want to do away with... the only way I can find to do this is to run them over with my car. Ban the car, therefore, because it has become a lethal weapon... right? Scenario #3: I may choose to pick up a large rock, and bludgeon someone to death. The rock then becomes a lethal weapon. Which did the damage? The rock? The rock did the damage, therefore we outlaw rocks? Right? This is obviously getting to the ludicrous. But I think anyone can see the point to be made here. If guns are banned, what will it be next? Kitchen knives? Automobiles? Rocks? C'mon! Banning guns is not going to resolve the problem. Locks on guns are an absolute waste of money as well as time. If someone is breaking into my house, with the intent and immediate threat to kill a member of my household, I don't want to have to fumble around to find a key, to unlock my defense. I want my defense immediate. And since I'm not in the habit of wearing a bullet proof vest day in and day out, the only way to fight back is to fight fire with fire. Fire power, that is. Safe use of guns will help, but still will not resolve the problem overa= ll. Leaving the Constitution alone, and as it stands is what the forefathers intended; bearing arms for personal protection, not for murder. Educating people about guns is an alternative solution, but will not keep those who are turned to use the weapon in a durogatory manner, from using it. If only outlaws, police and nuts are going to be allowed to have guns, what have I left to defend myself with? It's almost laughable if this weren't such a serious issue. Banning guns is definitely not the answer. Education and RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR is. Laws, if there are any to be improved upon, should be sending a very serious message to the general public that irresponsible use of firearms is not acceptable and is not tolerated in a civil society. Following through with appropriate penal codes should be the mandate.*** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay.
-Caveat Lector- What is it with guns? Guns don't kill anyone. The person who pulls the trigger is the responsible party here. This is all about responsibility. Not about children getting their hands on guns. Parents, teachers, and other care givers are responsible for passing on valid information to children. Adults who purchase guns are expected to act as responsible adults. Unfortunately, we have come into a time where adults do not believe that they are liable. How did this happen? Ask your local chapter of the Illuminati, or the local mafia. They might know how this all came about, if you don't already know. Here are some other thoughts: Scenario #1: I have a gas stove. I may choose to leave the gas on and asphyxiate someone I don't like. What? Do we now ban natural gas, because it became a 'lethal weapon'? The gas did the dirty deed? So ban it... right? Scenario #2: I see someone I decide I want to do away with... the only way I can find to do this is to run them over with my car. Ban the car, therefore, because it has become a lethal weapon... right? Scenario #3: I may choose to pick up a large rock, and bludgeon someone to death. The rock then becomes a lethal weapon. Which did the damage? The rock? The rock did the damage, therefore we outlaw rocks? Right? This is obviously getting to the ludicrous. But I think anyone can see the point to be made here. If guns are banned, what will it be next? Kitchen knives? Automobiles? Rocks? C'mon! Banning guns is not going to resolve the problem. Locks on guns are an absolute waste of money as well as time. If someone is breaking into my house, with the intent and immediate threat to kill a member of my household, I don't want to have to fumble around to find a key, to unlock my defense. I want my defense immediate. And since I'm not in the habit of wearing a bullet proof vest day in and day out, the only way to fight back is to fight fire with fire. Fire power, that is. Safe use of guns will help, but still will not resolve the problem overall. Leaving the Constitution alone, and as it stands is what the forefathers intended; bearing arms for personal protection, not for murder. Educating people about guns is an alternative solution, but will not keep those who are turned to use the weapon in a durogatory manner, from using it. If only outlaws, police and nuts are going to be allowed to have guns, what have I left to defend myself with? It's almost laughable if this weren't such a serious issue. Banning guns is definitely not the answer. Education and RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR is. Laws, if there are any to be improved upon, should be sending a very serious message to the general public that irresponsible use of firearms is not acceptable and is not tolerated in a civil society. Following through with appropriate penal codes should be the mandate. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- >Before we ban guns all together It is physically impossible to ban guns. The genii is out of the bottle. All the laws in the world can't put it back in. What we must do is create a world in which the use of guns, or of any other tool, to oppress others in any way is unthinkable because the oppression of others is unthinkable in and of itself, with tools or without. Such a world cannot be created with guns and such a world cannot be created without guns. Such a world is our only hope because this world, the world we have today, will otherwise destroy us and in the meantime is a prison. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 5/25/99 12:59:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >The highest percentage of shootings are drug related. > > Actually, the highest percentage of shootings are drug MONEY related. End > drug prohabition and the profit motive ceases to be a factor in drug use, > the drug user's prime reason to recruit evaporates, as does the vast > overwhelming majority of all crimes. Before prohibition drug abuse was a > tiny percent of all recreational drug use and was only a problem for the > individual involved and for his doctor. It had no effect on the rest of > society. After prohibition came into effect drug abuse mushroomed, and > crime with it. The cost to society of prohibition has been enormous, and > nothing, NOTHING, has been gained. End it NOW. > Before we ban guns all together this is the FIRST thing that should be done. Decriminalizing drugs would solve a whole bucket of problems, one of the most important being that which is identified above. Teo1000 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay." 1/2
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 5/25/99 12:43:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > good critiques of Darwinian evolution. > > > are not, in and of themselves, a good critique of evolution itself. Like > Freud or Columbus, Darwin and Wallace were on to something big, but were > fairly clueless as to what. Yes, the mind does have definable internal > functions. No, they are not static structures. Yes, you can strike land > sailing west from Spain. No, it is not India. Yes, life evolves. No, > competition alone does not select the survivors. > > Allow me to recommend an excellent book on the subject, Factor in Evolution> by Peter Kropotkin. It'll open your eyes. > The problem is not in the idea of evolution. I think that it is more or less a proven fact. The problem with how this issue polarizes people is the unwillingness of Materialists (which most scientists and most defenders of Darwinian [only the fittest survive] evolution are) to allow for anything that does not fit their paradigm, i.e., non-materiality, spirituality, etc. The same is true for "true believers" and others of less ideological bent who refuse to accept ANY amount of evolution and do not recognize it as a function in nature. There should be room for both. I have no problem accepting evolution in some fashion (the exact actions and functions and extent thereof is still open to much debate) and allowing room for a non-materiality in the universe as well, hence my interests in the paranormal which has no counterpart in Material Rationalism. Teo1000 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- >The highest percentage of shootings are drug related. Actually, the highest percentage of shootings are drug MONEY related. End drug prohabition and the profit motive ceases to be a factor in drug use, the drug user's prime reason to recruit evaporates, as does the vast overwhelming majority of all crimes. Before prohibition drug abuse was a tiny percent of all recreational drug use and was only a problem for the individual involved and for his doctor. It had no effect on the rest of society. After prohibition came into effect drug abuse mushroomed, and crime with it. The cost to society of prohibition has been enormous, and nothing, NOTHING, has been gained. End it NOW. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay." 1/2
-Caveat Lector- > good critiques of Darwinian evolution. are not, in and of themselves, a good critique of evolution itself. Like Freud or Columbus, Darwin and Wallace were on to something big, but were fairly clueless as to what. Yes, the mind does have definable internal functions. No, they are not static structures. Yes, you can strike land sailing west from Spain. No, it is not India. Yes, life evolves. No, competition alone does not select the survivors. Allow me to recommend an excellent book on the subject, by Peter Kropotkin. It'll open your eyes. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2
-Caveat Lector- < > Not at all. Violence is failure. The only justification for violence >> iself defense. Real self defense not your paranoid fantasies of a >> future that may or may not happen. >> >> Gavin; >> >> That's right. Violene is failure. Unfortunately it will never be erradicated, >> especially with the likes of the ATF, FBI and other government gestapo >> harrassing and murdering Americans. Real self defence? What is your >> definition of real self defence. No knock warrants, government agencies >> trashing your house looking for drugs or guns which they cannot find because >> they were never there in the first place. Government seizing your house, car, >> other belongings because they found some marijuana. > >Bad...bad government. > >> According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban > >Yes that's right. And voluntary compliance from law abiding citizens. >It >doesn't need to be permanent either. But I want to see what happens >when >guns are out of the equation. And it looks like we'll soon find out. > Gavin; How soon do you think? >> and >> the government sending in the military on house to house searches in order to >> get them, (because that is the only way they will get them)and the massive >> social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far more >> peacful then, right Nurev? > >No not then, after then. > Gavin; After the carnage, and a country more divided than it has ever been. Oh, now I get it. There I go with my predictions again. I just wonder how many others on the list agree with my predictions as opposed to yours; of a kinder, gentler America, disarmed. >> There will be civil war the likes of which we have >> never seen. Far fewer gun related deaths? I don't think so. > >There you go with your apocalyptic visions again. Most of you big >talkers >will give up your guns like pussycats. Some will fight it out. It's >just >natures way of improving the gene pool. Gavin; There you go bringing your Darwinian religion into it again. Isn't it great to have the crutch and faith of Darwinian evolution to give you all the answers. Makes things far less complicated. > >> snip> >> Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant >> that the police are useless. >> >> Gavin; >> >> First of all they were not kids. They were young men who had the wherewithal >> to construct their own bombs. How difficult do you think it would have been >> for them to get guns on the black market after your supposed gun ban? > >I don't know and neither do you. What we do know is that they had no >trouble >at all getting the guns they did. Gavin; Nice tautology. Of course we know that they got them. You say it's impossible to predict our future after a gun ban. I say there are certain things we can logically expect, and a large black market is one of them. You deny it because it ruins your argument. >snip> >> > "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- >> > Malcolm X >> >> So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are >> they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no. >> they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians >> in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a >> Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world. >> >> Gavin; >> >> As I said before, banning guns will do little if anything to decrease the >> gang bangers and drug dealers from killing each other. >> The vast majority of >> them already have criminal records and cannot obtain guns legally, but that >> doesn't stop them, and it will not stop them if there is a gun ban. >> >You don't KNOW that, and I want to find out for mysel >> > >> > >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. >> > >> > And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery. >> >> And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves >> get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put >> your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to the >> 2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body." >> Prove Darwin right. >> >> Gavin; >> >> Wrong again. It is better to die fighting for freedom than live as a slave. > >Good I'm glad you take that position. It proves that if your brain is >defective >you are not likely to pass it on to another generation. Love that >Darwin. > Gavin; Darwin really is a god to you isn't he? He's the answer to all your dreams, anybody who gets killed by the government can be blamed on Darwinian evolution and "survival of the fittest." You don't have to take responsibility for anything as long as you can blame it all on the greatest culler of all time, according to you, Darwinian evolution. I take it you would live as a slave, and wait for better
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay." 1/2
-Caveat Lector-
< >
>Gavin Phillips wrote:
>>
>> -Caveat Lector-
>>
>> Caveat Lector-
>>
>> Gavin Phillips wrote:
>> >
>> > -Caveat Lector-
>> >
>> > Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to
read
>> the
>> > hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns
out
>> to
>> > be a statist.
>>
>> I'm done with this subject for now in light of a REALLY dangerous
>> situation in
>> Europe. But I will reply briefly. I am far less concerned with what
>> your
>> Libertarian fears are about the state and guns, than you are.
>>
>> > The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the
>> > government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They
did
>> > such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the
OKC
>> > bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these
90's
>> > gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset
forfeiture). Yes
>> > that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only
ones
>> to
>> > have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder
and
>> > subjugation.
>>
>> I am NOT required to take your paranoid foolishness seriously.
>>
>> Gavin;
>> When the government tortures, gases, shoots and incinerates some 80 kids,
>> woman and men for absolutely no reason. Paranoid foolishness?
>
>Yes.
>
>>
>> Law enforcement shoots a 14 year old in the back and his nursing mother
in
>> the face, killing them both. Paranoid foolishess?
>
>Yes.
>
>>
>> FBI instruct their undecover agent, Elam A. Salem in the New York World
Trade
>> Center Bombing, not to switch a harmless powder for the bomb and it blows
up.
>> They then pay him (bribe?) a million dollars for his testimony against
the
>> supposed bombers. Paranoid foolishness?
>
>Yes.
>
>>
>> An ATF agent at the scene in the OKC bombing told Bruce Shaw that there
were
>> no ATF in the building at the time of the explosions, they were paged and
>> told not to go to work that day. Shaws employer overheard this
conversation.
>> The government is lieing about every aspect of this incident-period.
Paranoid
>> foolishness?
>
>Yes.
>
>>
>> Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above
cases,
>> or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive
>> government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it.
>
>I'm not doubting government malfeasance. I'm doubting your judgment.
>Not all these pet paranoias are facts either. The reason I answered yes to
all
>your your examples of paranoid foolishness is because they have nothing to
>do with YOU.
>
Yes they are facts. You can deny them till you're blue in the face.Ask
Charles Key about OKC, if you can be bothered. Bu then again, if what he says
doesn't fit your dogma you'll dismiss it just like everything else that is
contrary to your mindset. You are so simple minded that you think that those
incidents do not
effect me or others? Are you that stupid? Do you think Waco hasn't greatly
exacerbated people's fears about the government? They have everything to do
with me when the government kills people because maybe I am next. That is
not paranoid delusions, that is facing facts.
>> > But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall
>> > to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving
>> > government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely
>> corrupted
>> > from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most
thorough
>> > going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be
>> > trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in
charge of
>> > government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace?
>>
>> I think that my position on Government and Clinton is quite clear by
>> now. But I don't trust you armed even more than I don't trust the
>> Government armed. That's because
>> you are a " true believer " with a gun and seemingly nuts to boot. I,
>> and apparently
>> very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with weapons. How
>> about that?
>>
>> Gavin;
>>
>> I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters.
>
>I hoped this was a joke but it's not. The term " true believer," is
>rooted
>in religion. It means that you are blinded by your belief system.
Gavin;
Au contrair, what about your Darwinian evolution religious belief system?
>
>> Stop making
>> assumptions. I have never shot or owned a gun in my life.
>
>Well I have, and still do.
>
>(except an air gun
>> when I was 12. Really powerful, you could see the pellet coming out of
the
>> barrel). Do us all a favor, and cut down on the purile name calling, it
>> doesn't strengthen your argument. ("and seemingly nuts to boot")
>
>It's not to strengthen my argument, it's to express my feelings.
>
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector-
Gavin Phillips wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Caveat Lector-
>
> Gavin Phillips wrote:
> >
> > -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to read
> the
> > hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns out
> to
> > be a statist.
>
> I'm done with this subject for now in light of a REALLY dangerous
> situation in
> Europe. But I will reply briefly. I am far less concerned with what
> your
> Libertarian fears are about the state and guns, than you are.
>
> > The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the
> > government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They did
> > such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the OKC
> > bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these 90's
> > gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset forfeiture). Yes
> > that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only ones
> to
> > have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder and
> > subjugation.
>
> I am NOT required to take your paranoid foolishness seriously.
>
> Gavin;
> When the government tortures, gases, shoots and incinerates some 80 kids,
> woman and men for absolutely no reason. Paranoid foolishness?
Yes.
>
> Law enforcement shoots a 14 year old in the back and his nursing mother in
> the face, killing them both. Paranoid foolishess?
Yes.
>
> FBI instruct their undecover agent, Elam A. Salem in the New York World Trade
> Center Bombing, not to switch a harmless powder for the bomb and it blows up.
> They then pay him (bribe?) a million dollars for his testimony against the
> supposed bombers. Paranoid foolishness?
Yes.
>
> An ATF agent at the scene in the OKC bombing told Bruce Shaw that there were
> no ATF in the building at the time of the explosions, they were paged and
> told not to go to work that day. Shaws employer overheard this conversation.
> The government is lieing about every aspect of this incident-period. Paranoid
> foolishness?
Yes.
>
> Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above cases,
> or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive
> government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it.
I'm not doubting government malfeasance. I'm doubting your judgment.
Not all
these pet paranoias are facts either. The reason I answered yes to all
your
your examples of paranoid foolishness is because they have nothing to
do with
YOU.
> > But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall
> > to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving
> > government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely
> corrupted
> > from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most thorough
> > going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be
> > trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in charge of
> > government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace?
>
> I think that my position on Government and Clinton is quite clear by
> now. But I don't trust you armed even more than I don't trust the
> Government armed. That's because
> you are a " true believer " with a gun and seemingly nuts to boot. I,
> and apparently
> very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with weapons. How
> about that?
>
> Gavin;
>
> I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters.
I hoped this was a joke but it's not. The term " true believer," is
rooted
in religion. It means that you are blinded by your belief system.
> Stop making
> assumptions. I have never shot or owned a gun in my life.
Well I have, and still do.
(except an air gun
> when I was 12. Really powerful, you could see the pellet coming out of the
> barrel). Do us all a favor, and cut down on the purile name calling, it
> doesn't strengthen your argument. ("and seemingly nuts to boot")
It's not to strengthen my argument, it's to express my feelings.
> It seems that you Nurev are starting to become a "true believer" in the
> government's/mainstream media's propaganda swill about why Americans should
> be disarmed.
I'll say it again. It's not that the government's propaganda has
fooled silly
me into thinking that Americans should be disarmed. I HAVE COME TO
THAT
CONCLUSION ON MY VERY OWN. I don't think Americans are sane, mature,
or
responsible enough to own guns. So if the government thinks that way
too for
whatever nefarious reason, I DON'T CARE! At this point in time armed
Americans
are more of a threat to all of us stuck with each other, than the
government.
In your paranoid world ,it's the government that's the biggest threat.
In my
world, its way too many guns in the hands of way too many people that
is the
threat. I DON'T have to buy in to your paranoia.
> Nothing, nothing Billl Clinton does or attempts to do is for the
> good of Americans. He marches t
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- > But I want to see what happens when guns are out of the equation. And it looks like we'll soon find out. Dream on. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- >What is real is the astronomical number of gunshot tragedies every single day. What EXACTLY is that number? be specific. Cite your sources. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay." 1/2
-Caveat Lector-
Gavin Phillips wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to read
the
> hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns out
to
> be a statist.
I'm done with this subject for now in light of a REALLY dangerous
situation in
Europe. But I will reply briefly. I am far less concerned with what
your
Libertarian fears are about the state and guns, than you are.
> The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the
> government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They did
> such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the OKC
> bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these 90's
> gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset forfeiture). Yes
> that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only ones
to
> have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder and
> subjugation.
I am NOT required to take your paranoid foolishness seriously.
Gavin;
When the government tortures, gases, shoots and incinerates some 80 kids,
woman and men for absolutely no reason. Paranoid foolishness?
Law enforcement shoots a 14 year old in the back and his nursing mother in
the face, killing them both. Paranoid foolishess?
FBI instruct their undecover agent, Elam A. Salem in the New York World Trade
Center Bombing, not to switch a harmless powder for the bomb and it blows up.
They then pay him (bribe?) a million dollars for his testimony against the
supposed bombers. Paranoid foolishness?
An ATF agent at the scene in the OKC bombing told Bruce Shaw that there were
no ATF in the building at the time of the explosions, they were paged and
told not to go to work that day. Shaws employer overheard this conversation.
The government is lieing about every aspect of this incident-period. Paranoid
foolishness?
Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above cases,
or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive
government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it.
> But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall
> to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving
> government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely
corrupted
> from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most thorough
> going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be
> trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in charge of
> government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace?
I think that my position on Government and Clinton is quite clear by
now. But I don't trust you armed even more than I don't trust the
Government armed. That's because
you are a " true believer " with a gun and seemingly nuts to boot. I,
and apparently
very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with weapons. How
about that?
Gavin;
I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters. Stop making
assumptions. I have never shot or owned a gun in my life.(except an air gun
when I was 12. Really powerful, you could see the pellet coming out of the
barrel). Do us all a favor, and cut down on the purile name calling, it
doesn't strengthen your argument. ("and seemingly nuts to boot")
It seems that you Nurev are starting to become a "true believer" in the
government's/mainstream media's propaganda swill about why Americans should
be disarmed. Nothing, nothing Billl Clinton does or attempts to do is for the
good of Americans. He marches to a different tune, his agenda is given to him
by the people who put him there and who have been covering his backside for
the last 7 years, and some 60 convenient deaths. The string pullers behind
the curtain pulling Clintons and many other politicians strings know they
have to get the guns in order to subjugate us even further. You cannot have a
dictatorship without first getting the guns. If you are naive enough to
believe that the whores in Washington are after the guns for our benefit you
reallly need to hit the books. You really think Clinton, Reno and the many
other politicopaths give a damn about us. As for your statement;
"and apparently very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with
weapons. How about that?" As you know, very many of our fellow citizens
change their opinion more often than their underwear. Their opinion changes
according to the latest manipulated media poll and what ever is politically
correct at the time. If the time ever came when the government passed a law
to ban all weapons and there were hundreds of Wacos going on, you might find
their opinion rapidly changing. Don't count on support from sheep. They go
wherever public opinion and emotion herds them.
>
> You so quickly forget history's many lessons of dictators disarming the
> citizenry only to be followed by genocide. What about the Warsaw uprising in
> which
[CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay." 2/2
-Caveat Lector- > > >How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel > ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many? > > And how many unarmed women will be raped so YOU can feel ideologically > correct? How many frail elders will be murdered in their beds? For that > matter, how many high school kids will die like the kids at Littleton > died, waiting in vain while four, count 'em, FOUR SWATs hid outside behind > armored trucks, waiting for the the perps to kill themselves and then > waiting two and a half hours MORE before they dared to poke their > cowardly pig snouts in the door? Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant that the police are useless. Gavin; First of all they were not kids. They were young men who had the wherewithal to construct their own bombs. How difficult do you think it would have been for them to get guns on the black market after your supposed gun ban? Not very long. By the way, since when has it become irrelevent that law enforcement, with all their weaponery and flak jackets, wait outside the school while the killers reap carnage. Would it still be irrevelent if it was your kids or friends who were being slaughtered? The police are not useless, they chose to cowardly cower outside instead of doing their job and trying to stop the killers and also give first aid to the injured. > > 911 is a joke. When trouble strikes, ready or not, we're on our own. Ready > is better. Agreed. > > >I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of > Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the > concentration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of > poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social > disintegration > is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. > > "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- > Malcolm X So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no. they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world. Gavin; As I said before, banning guns will do little if anything to decrease the gang bangers and drug dealers from killing each other. The vast majority of them already have criminal records and cannot obtain guns legally, but that doesn't stop them, and it will not stop them if there is a gun ban. > > >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. > > And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery. And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to the 2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body." Prove Darwin right. Gavin; Wrong again. It is better to die fighting for freedom than live as a slave. Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others fought for it. Nurev, is everybody who owns a gun because they fear a despotic government, the reason the founding fathers gave us the 2nd Ammendment in the first place, all "gun nuts." The vast majority of the people in the gun culture are law abiding citizens who see a depraved leader and an out of control law enforecment doing what ever they want. You suck up the government's propaganda so well, I thought you had more sense than that. Are the ATF and FBI etc. gun nuts too, or are they okay because they work for the government. The ATF and FBI have toally discraced themselves in the last few years with there constant lies, witness intimidation, murders, cover-ups and wholsale cowardice. If you are so proud of them and obviously seem to think that they do a good job, why not join up, put your money where your mouth is, get some blood on your hands. But watch your back jack, because those boys will have you going through the door first every time. As for Darwin, I wouldn't put much credence in his hypothesis. He was the man who said he didn't see any problems with a bear turning into a whale, given enough time.(snicker)I suppose given enough time, hippo's will fly, and then we'll all be in the shit. > > >>I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see > that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in > a country with free access to millions of guns. > > And any fool SHOULD be able to see what would becoume of us if we lived in > a country where only the government had guns. There are many countries where the population doesn't have access to weapons and they do very nicely. By golly ! Gavin; Different cultures. America is the worlds superpower and with the most relaxed gun laws as yet. They have to get our guns, they alr
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector-
Caveat Lector-
Gavin Phillips wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to read
the
> hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns out
to
> be a statist.
I'm done with this subject for now in light of a REALLY dangerous
situation in
Europe. But I will reply briefly. I am far less concerned with what
your
Libertarian fears are about the state and guns, than you are.
> The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the
> government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They did
> such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the OKC
> bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these 90's
> gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset forfeiture). Yes
> that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only ones
to
> have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder and
> subjugation.
I am NOT required to take your paranoid foolishness seriously.
Gavin;
When the government tortures, gases, shoots and incinerates some 80 kids,
woman and men for absolutely no reason. Paranoid foolishness?
Law enforcement shoots a 14 year old in the back and his nursing mother in
the face, killing them both. Paranoid foolishess?
FBI instruct their undecover agent, Elam A. Salem in the New York World Trade
Center Bombing, not to switch a harmless powder for the bomb and it blows up.
They then pay him (bribe?) a million dollars for his testimony against the
supposed bombers. Paranoid foolishness?
An ATF agent at the scene in the OKC bombing told Bruce Shaw that there were
no ATF in the building at the time of the explosions, they were paged and
told not to go to work that day. Shaws employer overheard this conversation.
The government is lieing about every aspect of this incident-period. Paranoid
foolishness?
Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above cases,
or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive
government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it.
> But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall
> to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving
> government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely
corrupted
> from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most thorough
> going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be
> trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in charge of
> government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace?
I think that my position on Government and Clinton is quite clear by
now. But I don't trust you armed even more than I don't trust the
Government armed. That's because
you are a " true believer " with a gun and seemingly nuts to boot. I,
and apparently
very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with weapons. How
about that?
Gavin;
I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters. Stop making
assumptions. I have never shot or owned a gun in my life.(except an air gun
when I was 12. Really powerful, you could see the pellet coming out of the
barrel). Do us all a favor, and cut down on the purile name calling, it
doesn't strengthen your argument. ("and seemingly nuts to boot")
It seems that you Nurev are starting to become a "true believer" in the
government's/mainstream media's propaganda swill about why Americans should
be disarmed. Nothing, nothing Billl Clinton does or attempts to do is for the
good of Americans. He marches to a different tune, his agenda is given to him
by the people who put him there and who have been covering his backside for
the last 7 years, and some 60 convenient deaths. The string pullers behind
the curtain pulling Clintons and many other politicians strings know they
have to get the guns in order to subjugate us even further. You cannot have a
dictatorship without first getting the guns. If you are naive enough to
believe that the whores in Washington are after the guns for our benefit you
reallly need to hit the books. You really think Clinton, Reno and the many
other politicopaths give a damn about us. As for your statement;
"and apparently very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with
weapons. How about that?" As you know, very many of our fellow citizens
change their opinion more often than their underwear. Their opinion changes
according to the latest manipulated media poll and what ever is politically
correct at the time. If the time ever came when the government passed a law
to ban all weapons and there were hundreds of Wacos going on, you might find
their opinion rapidly changing. Don't count on support from sheep. They go
wherever public opinion and emotion herds them.
>
> You so quickly forget history's many lessons of dictators disarming the
> citizenry only to be followed by genocide. What about the Warsaw upri
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- Gavin Phillips wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to read the > hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns out to > be a statist. I'm done with this subject for now in light of a REALLY dangerous situation in Europe. But I will reply briefly. I am far less concerned with what your Libertarian fears are about the state and guns, than you are. > The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the > government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They did > such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the OKC > bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these 90's > gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset forfeiture). Yes > that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only ones to > have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder and > subjugation. I am NOT required to take your paranoid foolishness seriously. > But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall > to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving > government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely corrupted > from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most thorough > going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be > trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in charge of > government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace? I think that my position on Government and Clinton is quite clear by now. But I don't trust you armed even more than I don't trust the Government armed. That's because you are a " true believer " with a gun and seemingly nuts to boot. I, and apparently very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with weapons. How about that? > > You so quickly forget history's many lessons of dictators disarming the > citizenry only to be followed by genocide. What about the Warsaw uprising in > which a handful of Jews took on and held their own for quite some time > against the Nazis' s after they had managed to obtain some firearms. Preach > your statism in Beijing where I'm certain they will also secretly hold you in > contempt. Your views on inalienable human rights are particularly revealing; Yes these things happened. But they are only a POSSIBILITY at this point in this country. Why should I take your word for it that you can see the future? What IS A FACT is that there are far too many gun related deaths NOW. > Not at all. Rights are a conceptual legal concept. If everybody > > > plays along, you have rights. If most, or even many people don't > > > play along, you have bupkes. There is nothing inalienable about > > > legalisms in the real world. > > > > > > > > >Jim Norman says; > > The above is a most revealing statement. It shows that Nurev has the > > same understanding of rights as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and all the > > other mass murders of the past (and of the future). They have no concept > > of the agreement among mature people to recognize the humanity of others > > and not treat them as resources to be exploited and killed if they get > > in the way. > > Not only Hitler and Mao, Jim. Also George Bush and Bill and Hilary Clinton > along with many Congressman and Senators. Conceptual only to a wanton > socialist like yourself, Nurev. I'm not a Socialist. But, I don't mind them either. I much prefer socialists to Libertarians. > Rights only subscribed by the gun toting ATF > murderer at your doorstep and fully endorsed by Nurev. How comforting. You > talk about our basic human rights being a conceptual legal concept, what > utter nonsense. Trying to make our basic human rights an issue in which we > need lawyers to decide what we do and do not need. I'm certain most people > can agree on what our basic rights are without the need for lawyers ratifying > it. You not only advocate only a government of armed thugs, you reduce our > rights to the whim of lawyers decisions. I never said anything about lawyers. You only have rights as long as everyone you live with agrees to recognize those rights. There is no such thing as natural rights except in your fevered imagination. You are no different from the the true believers who say that animals have rights. Neither is true in the real world. Don't get me wrong, There is nothing wrong with establishing " rights." It's just that you like to forget that your rights depend on all of us. Things are changing rapidly with relation to guns. I like how they are changing. You don't. If you are smart, you will make the best of it. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is u
[CTRL] Lethal Laws. [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- "Lethal Laws:Gun "Control" is the Key to Genocide" by Jay Simkin, Aaron Zelman & Alan M. Rice This book gives you hard proof that the downside to "gun control" is genocide, not inconvenience to firearms owners. Lethal Laws contains the authentic original texts of "gun control" laws -- with facing translations -- that cleared the way for seven major genocides between 1915 and 1980 in which 56,000,000 persons, including millions of children, were murdered. The book also shows how America took all but the last step of a major genocide just over 50 years ago, with the approval of the Congress and the Supreme Court. This work proves that "gun control", which is really civilian disarmament, delivers not safe streets but mountains of corpses. Click here to read more ! Third, the book's insistent thesis is that gun control paves the way for genocide. http://www.jpfo.org/L-laws.htm opyright (c) 1995 David B. Kopel. Originally published in the New York Law School Journal of International and Comparative Law, 1995, Vol. 15, pages 355-398. Lethal Laws. By Jay Simkin, Aaron Zelman, & Alan M. Rice. Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, P.O. Box 270143, Hartford, WI 53207 (414) 673-9745 Reviewed by David B. Kopel "If someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first." The Talmud. [1] This book ought to be a non-controversial item that will quickly find its way onto the shelves of all libraries with an interest in international law. The authors' method is quite standard: a compilation from seven nations of statutes on a particular subject. The translation of the statutes into English is meticulous, and each of the statutes is accompanied by commentary explaining its significance. [2] In addition, as the legal academy works to improve itself at hearing voices which have too long been ignored, this book makes a profound effort to bring to our attention the lives of people, such as persecuted ethnic minorities, who have been marginalized by scholarly research. But in fact, this book will likely be bought by few law school libraries. It is unlikely to be reviewed in the usual international law journals, because in a number of ways, the book is so politically incorrect. What is "wrong" with this book? First, its lead author is an economist, not a law professor or even an attorney. Second, the topic of the book is gun control statutes in nations which have perpetrated genocide in the twentieth century. Third, the book's insistent thesis is that gun control paves the way for genocide. I. The Nations The core of the book--the translations of the various foreign laws--is excellent, and should serve as a model for similar books on other subjects. On the even-numbered pages are photocopies of the foreign laws. On the odd-numbered, facing pages, are English translations of the laws. The foreign statutes are photocopied from foreign statute books. Copies of the cover and publication information pages from the foreign statute books are provided as well. This approach encourages the most accurate translations, since any person who can read the language of the foreign statute can instantly verify the accuracy of the translation. Meticulous citations make the book all the more credible and valuable as a reference work. While the authors do an excellent job in compiling the various foreign statutes (many of which, such as Ottoman Empire statutes from 1860, are quite obscure), the authors run into a serious difficulty as they attempt to analyze the various gun laws in their historical context in each nation. As the authors acknowledge, only the Nazi genocide has been carefully investigated. [3] The victims of most of the other genocides were much less likely than European Jews to be able to write Western languages (or to be able to write at all). Accordingly, they were less able to leave any kind of record for history. Likewise, most genocidal regimes of the twentieth century were considerably less devoted than the Nazis were in recording their own activities. Let us now turn to the individual nations whose gun control laws and genocide records form the core of Lethal Laws. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ==
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to read the hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns out to be a statist. The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They did such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the OKC bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these 90's gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset forfeiture). Yes that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only ones to have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder and subjugation. But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely corrupted from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most thorough going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in charge of government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace? You so quickly forget history's many lessons of dictators disarming the citizenry only to be followed by genocide. What about the Warsaw uprising in which a handful of Jews took on and held their own for quite some time against the Nazis' s after they had managed to obtain some firearms. Preach your statism in Beijing where I'm certain they will also secretly hold you in contempt. Your views on inalienable human rights are particularly revealing; Not at all. Rights are a conceptual legal concept. If everybody > > plays along, you have rights. If most, or even many people don't > > play along, you have bupkes. There is nothing inalienable about > > legalisms in the real world. > > > > > >Jim Norman says; > The above is a most revealing statement. It shows that Nurev has the > same understanding of rights as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and all the > other mass murders of the past (and of the future). They have no concept > of the agreement among mature people to recognize the humanity of others > and not treat them as resources to be exploited and killed if they get > in the way. Not only Hitler and Mao, Jim. Also George Bush and Bill and Hilary Clinton along with many Congressman and Senators. Conceptual only to a wanton socialist like yourself, Nurev. Rights only subscribed by the gun toting ATF murderer at your doorstep and fully endorsed by Nurev. How comforting. You talk about our basic human rights being a conceptual legal concept, what utter nonsense. Trying to make our basic human rights an issue in which we need lawyers to decide what we do and do not need. I'm certain most people can agree on what our basic rights are without the need for lawyers ratifying it. You not only advocate only a government of armed thugs, you reduce our rights to the whim of lawyers decisions. << >I wish to avert that violence because I live in this society, and I don't want to go down with it. If you think you can avert violence by not being ready to counter it, you are a fool. Violence is part of life; it is NOT going away just because some people wish it to. Violence has been part of life since the first aomeba ate the first protazoa; get used to it. Violence is not evil. Violence is not good. Violence just is. To equate the knee to a rapists crotch with the sap in a mugger's hand is an infantile thought process. That's kidthink. Grow up. Violence is like weather. Sometimes it's sunny. Sometimes it rains. When it rains do we hide in the house? No, we carry an umbrella and go on about our life. >How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many? And how many unarmed women will be raped so YOU can feel ideologically correct? How many frail elders will be murdered in their beds? For that matter, how many high school kids will die like the kids at Littleton died, waiting in vain while four, count 'em, FOUR SWATs hid outside behind armored trucks, waiting for the the perps to kill themselves and then waiting two and a half hours MORE before they dared to poke their cowardly pig snouts in the door? 911 is a joke. When trouble strikes, ready or not, we're on our own. Ready is better. >I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the concentration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social disintegration is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- Malcolm X >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy w
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > >>I wish to avert that violence because I live in this society, and I > don't want to go down with it. > > If you think you can avert violence by not being ready to counter it, you > are a fool. Violence is part of life; it is NOT going away just because > some people wish it to. Violence has been part of life since the first > aomeba ate the first protazoa; get used to it. I may be more used to it than you. I grew up and worked in the toughest neighborhoods in NYC. I was on the receiving end of a major war. > Violence is not evil. > Violence is not good. Violence just is. Not at all. Violence is failure. The only justification for violence is self defense. Real self defense not your paranoid fantasies of a future that may or may not happen. > To equate the knee to a rapists > crotch with the sap in a mugger's hand is an infantile thought process. > That's kidthink. Grow up. Violence is like weather. Sometimes it's sunny. > Sometimes it rains. When it rains do we hide in the house? No, we carry an > umbrella and go on about our life. This is idiotic. Get yourself together. > > >How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel > ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many? > > And how many unarmed women will be raped so YOU can feel ideologically > correct? How many frail elders will be murdered in their beds? For that > matter, how many high school kids will die like the kids at Littleton > died, waiting in vain while four, count 'em, FOUR SWATs hid outside behind > armored trucks, waiting for the the perps to kill themselves and then > waiting two and a half hours MORE before they dared to poke their > cowardly pig snouts in the door? Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant that the police are useless. > > 911 is a joke. When trouble strikes, ready or not, we're on our own. Ready > is better. Agreed. > > >I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of > Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the > concentration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of > poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social > disintegration > is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. > > "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- > Malcolm X So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no. they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world. > > >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. > > And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery. And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to the 2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body." Prove Darwin right. > > >>I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see > that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in > a country with free access to millions of guns. > > And any fool SHOULD be able to see what would becoume of us if we lived in > a country where only the government had guns. There are many countries where the population doesn't have access to weapons and they do very nicely. By golly ! > > But I guess not. It's coming. Just a few more massacres. Bye bye Smith & Wesson. Joshua2 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > nurev wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On several occasions Nurev has threatened his critics with a future > > > > revolution of the people. He seems to enjoy fantasizing about a future > > > > revolution against the "capitalists" who he seems to fear will take over > > > > the government. > > > > I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome > > of > > Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the > > concen- > > tration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of > > poverty > > is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social disintegration > > is > > dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. > > > > I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see > > that > > those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in a > > country with free access to millions of guns. > > > > (They haven't already?) Yet here he wants to take away > > > > their guns. What kind of sense does that make? > > > > Right! Like you gun loonies are really going to stop tanks with your > > 9mms > > and your shotguns. > > During the Hungarian revolution many Russian tanks were taken out with > "Molotov cocktails". Tanks are not necessarily unstoppable. Also, TOW > missiles might become readily available if a civil war were to erupt. Oh Howard you pick such unfortunate examples. The Soviets made short shrift of the Hungarian Revolution. > However, as I am sure you realize, a well armed citizenry would be > impossible to stop even if the opposition had help from outside forces > (as they probably would). This is wishful thinking. It bears no resemblance to reality. The US Government is the most powerful entity in all of history. > Your scenario of revolution becoming an > inevitable outcome of the concentration of wealth is true. However, you > keep calling this "capitalism". Free market capitalism does not lead to > a concentration of wealth. It is only when capitalists are able to > control the government and use its powers to limit competition that > great concentrations of wealth are really possible. Please stop. This is the natural evolution of money/power in ANY system. This is Capitalism even if it is not by your ideal definition. This is it. This is what it does. It's no secret. > Read some of the > other articles that have appeared on this list about the Mellon family > or the Roosevelt family and you will see that their great wealth was > derived in large measure through the power of government. These efforts > to amass great wealth were empowered by the creation of laws to the > benefit of these elite. This behavior is due to the natural human tendency towards Elitism which is nothing more than an human extension of anthropoid hierarchy. Capitalism is the system invented by and for elites with excess capital. Money gets power and power gets money. Both together keep the elites in charge. > This is not a result of the liberty I and others > you so often demean advocate, but rather is a result of the growth in > government powers which you certainly do not seem to deplore. Your concept of Liberty is like your concept of Capitalism. > If this is > to lead to a revolution, as you seem to believe, why do you want the > people to be disarmed while the government (which you know is under the > control of the elite you seem to deplore) is so well armed? It's a question of priority. Revolution is theoretical. Gun violence is immediate. > > > Who the hell do you think you are impressing? No > > one > > takes you clowns seriously except your own delusional selves. > > So I am a clown and delusional? Please try to control yourself when > addressing me. I apologize. I am speaking to you as representative rather than you as Howard the individual. You ( all ) are not taken seriously by anyone but each other and the politicians who represent some of you. I say this not as much to put you down, as to make you understand that you don't have John Q. Citizen on you side and you are loosing more fence sitters every day. Today, that awful establishment twat Elizabeth Dole came out for restrictions on guns. She didn't do this for the hell of it. Her pollsters see enough people on the right changing their attitudes about the availability of guns. She is also setting a line of demarcation between her and Baby Bush. This will be the " hot button issue " to turn out the Republican vote. I hope she looses because I just can't stand her accent. But the point really is the direction of the gun issue in politics. The NRA line of no give has brought you gun nuts to this. The NRA doesn't care about you or rights. They are the political action arm of the US gun manufacturers and they use the Second Amendment and suckers like you to keep pushing their over saturation of their domestic market. You want to
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- > >>During the Hungarian revolution many Russian tanks were taken out with >>"Molotov cocktails". Tanks are not necessarily unstoppable. > >In his book (on Loompanics), Ragnar Benson passes on a >great little story about a fight between some Israeli militia on >motorcycles and a column of Egyptian tanks. The tanks were throwing up >a dust cloud behind them as they tore through the desert. The bikers >came out of the dust unannounced. The tankers couldn't hear them coming >over the noize of their treads. The bikers wove in and out between the >tanks and started flinging molotovs left and right just as >prepositioned snipers opened up on the tankers' infantry support who were > riding in trucks. The Egyptian infantry had to stop and dismount just >to get clean shot off and when they did they shot at the snipers because >that's where the incoming was coming in from. Can't say I blame 'em. >They never even saw the bikers till it was too late. > >And this in the desert, homeland of tanks. Think about cities, homeland >of molotovs. > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- You would think a person on this list would know the reasons other then the "popular" ones to disarm the people... I guess we're getting swollowed up by more of the ignorant masses. Sad sad sad etc... Jamie At 01:15 AM 5/12/99 -0400, Howard R. Davis III wrote: > -Caveat Lector- >> Right! Like you gun loonies are really going to stop tanks with your >> 9mms >> and your shotguns. > >During the Hungarian revolution many Russian tanks were taken out with >"Molotov cocktails". Tanks are not necessarily unstoppable. Also, TOW >missiles might become readily available if a civil war were to erupt. >However, as I am sure you realize, a well armed citizenry would be >impossible to stop even if the opposition had help from outside forces Howard, While your arguments are well made, you're wasting your ascii on this brain dead fool. Let him continue to rant about "gun control" when FEMA comes to pick up his sorry ass and he isn't able to defend himself, is taken off to a concentration camp and summarily executed. Don -- "In a age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell - DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- At 01:15 AM 5/12/99 -0400, Howard R. Davis III wrote: > -Caveat Lector- >> Right! Like you gun loonies are really going to stop tanks with your >> 9mms >> and your shotguns. > >During the Hungarian revolution many Russian tanks were taken out with >"Molotov cocktails". Tanks are not necessarily unstoppable. Also, TOW >missiles might become readily available if a civil war were to erupt. >However, as I am sure you realize, a well armed citizenry would be >impossible to stop even if the opposition had help from outside forces Howard, While your arguments are well made, you're wasting your ascii on this brain dead fool. Let him continue to rant about "gun control" when FEMA comes to pick up his sorry ass and he isn't able to defend himself, is taken off to a concentration camp and summarily executed. Don -- "In a age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell - DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: > > > > > "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: > > > > > > > > On several occasions Nurev has threatened his critics with a future > > > revolution of the people. He seems to enjoy fantasizing about a future > > > revolution against the "capitalists" who he seems to fear will take over > > > the government. > > I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome > of > Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the > concen- > tration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of > poverty > is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social disintegration > is > dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. > > I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see > that > those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in a > country with free access to millions of guns. > > (They haven't already?) Yet here he wants to take away > > > their guns. What kind of sense does that make? > > Right! Like you gun loonies are really going to stop tanks with your > 9mms > and your shotguns. During the Hungarian revolution many Russian tanks were taken out with "Molotov cocktails". Tanks are not necessarily unstoppable. Also, TOW missiles might become readily available if a civil war were to erupt. However, as I am sure you realize, a well armed citizenry would be impossible to stop even if the opposition had help from outside forces (as they probably would). Your scenario of revolution becoming an inevitable outcome of the concentration of wealth is true. However, you keep calling this "capitalism". Free market capitalism does not lead to a concentration of wealth. It is only when capitalists are able to control the government and use its powers to limit competition that great concentrations of wealth are really possible. Read some of the other articles that have appeared on this list about the Mellon family or the Roosevelt family and you will see that their great wealth was derived in large measure through the power of government. These efforts to amass great wealth were empowered by the creation of laws to the benefit of these elite. This is not a result of the liberty I and others you so often demean advocate, but rather is a result of the growth in government powers which you certainly do not seem to deplore. If this is to lead to a revolution, as you seem to believe, why do you want the people to be disarmed while the government (which you know is under the control of the elite you seem to deplore) is so well armed? > Who the hell do you think you are impressing? No > one > takes you clowns seriously except your own delusional selves. So I am a clown and delusional? Please try to control yourself when addressing me. > Waco was > very > well armed remember? No, they were not. There is evidence that many of the guns were placed in the building after the fire. And, even if they did have many guns, half of the people there were women and children (and, of course, they were in a flimsy easily torched wooden building). > The only thing that could have saved them was an > outcry > from all of us. Do you guys think there will be an outcry from the > rest of > your fellow citizens when we all decide through the political process > that > we no longer want guns in the general population AND YOU WON'T COMPLY? > > Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns. > Period. If this society is too sick to have easy access to guns then one must ask the question: Why is it too sick now when 200 years ago the leaders of our country thought the opposite? I suggested the possibility of modifying the First amendment to disallow the portrayal of violence in the media. (It seems that the present interpretation of the 1st amendment to allow these portrayals is fairly recent, as well). You agreed with me that the portrayal of violence in the media is bad and that you don't allow your children to watch it. However, you did not agree that the first amendment should be limited. Why not? We have had gun control for over thirty years. During that same period of increasing control of guns we have also seen a great increase in the portrayal of violence in the media. It seems only reasonable to me to believe that a decrease in the portrayal of violence would have a more beneficial effect than any increase in gun control could possibly have. Howard Davis DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- >if this is ->j2<- that you are trying to convince Actually, I was addressing the listers at large, particularly any who might consider this kind of raving to have any value, but haven't decided for themselves yet. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: >>>I wish to avert that violence because I live in this society, and I >don't want to go down with it. > >If you think you can avert violence by not being ready to counter it, you >are a fool. Violence is part of life; it is NOT going away just because >some people wish it to. Violence has been part of life since the first >aomeba ate the first protazoa; get used to it. Violence is not evil. >Violence is not good. Violence just is. To equate the knee to a rapists >crotch with the sap in a mugger's hand is an infantile thought process. >That's kidthink. Grow up. Violence is like weather. Sometimes it's sunny. >Sometimes it rains. When it rains do we hide in the house? No, we carry an >umbrella and go on about our life. > >>How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel >ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many? > >And how many unarmed women will be raped so YOU can feel ideologically >correct? How many frail elders will be murdered in their beds? For that >matter, how many high school kids will die like the kids at Littleton >died, waiting in vain while four, count 'em, FOUR SWATs hid outside behind >armored trucks, waiting for the the perps to kill themselves and then >waiting two and a half hours MORE before they dared to poke their >cowardly pig snouts in the door? > >911 is a joke. When trouble strikes, ready or not, we're on our own. Ready >is better. > > >>I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of >Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the >concentration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of >poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social >disintegration >is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. > > >"An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- >Malcolm X > >>> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. > >And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery. > >>>I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see >that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in >a country with free access to millions of guns. > > >And any fool SHOULD be able to see what would becoume of us if we lived in >a country where only the government had guns. > >But I guess not. if this is ->j2<- that you are trying to convince, spare your fingers for someone more equiped for debate. this guy is one of the agenda group and will spew disinfo to his last worthless breath. you will learn on control that there is just no communicating with the agenda group, as they are here to spew and defend the indefensible. they are simply time and bandwidth wasters. when you get into a spewing contest with them it is simply a means for them to wast your time and that is their function. spare yourself, they are beneath responding to. there is no there there chris DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- >>I wish to avert that violence because I live in this society, and I don't want to go down with it. If you think you can avert violence by not being ready to counter it, you are a fool. Violence is part of life; it is NOT going away just because some people wish it to. Violence has been part of life since the first aomeba ate the first protazoa; get used to it. Violence is not evil. Violence is not good. Violence just is. To equate the knee to a rapists crotch with the sap in a mugger's hand is an infantile thought process. That's kidthink. Grow up. Violence is like weather. Sometimes it's sunny. Sometimes it rains. When it rains do we hide in the house? No, we carry an umbrella and go on about our life. >How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many? And how many unarmed women will be raped so YOU can feel ideologically correct? How many frail elders will be murdered in their beds? For that matter, how many high school kids will die like the kids at Littleton died, waiting in vain while four, count 'em, FOUR SWATs hid outside behind armored trucks, waiting for the the perps to kill themselves and then waiting two and a half hours MORE before they dared to poke their cowardly pig snouts in the door? 911 is a joke. When trouble strikes, ready or not, we're on our own. Ready is better. >I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the concentration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social disintegration is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- Malcolm X >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery. >>I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in a country with free access to millions of guns. And any fool SHOULD be able to see what would becoume of us if we lived in a country where only the government had guns. But I guess not. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- Jim Norman wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > nurev wrote: > > > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Whether they be pro-gun or anti-gun, most people would > > > > acknowledge that mankind has certain, Inalienable Rights. > > > > > > Not at all. Rights are a conceptual legal concept. If everybody > > > plays along, you have rights. If most, or even many people don't > > > play along, you have bupkes. There is nothing inalienable about > > > legalisms in the real world. > > > > > The above is a most revealing statement. It shows that Nurev has the > > same understanding of rights as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and all the > > other mass murders of the past (and of the future). And not just mass murderers Howard. Everyone who understands the business of power. It's the real bottom line. I never said I condone it. I always point it out for the fools and ideologues who invent unreality. They have no concept > > of the agreement among mature people to recognize the humanity of others > > and not treat them as resources to be exploited and killed if they get > > in the way. Sounds like anarcho-capitalists to me. Sounds like tobacco and gun CEO's. Sounds like Pentagon and Weapons CEO's. Sounds like Elite Politicians. Surely you're not describing me! The very basis of the concept of "rights" comes from our > > innate understanding that others value their lives and we cannot take > > that life without doing harm to our very soul. (There has been some > > postings on this list by a retired military officer about the > > difficulties in training young men to kill which go into this more > > deeply). We look at ourselves and others and realize that others have a > > life which they value as much as we value our own. While Nurev may claim > > to wish to ban guns for the good of humanity, it is obvious from his > > replies that this is only a cover. His replies often show a deep hatred > > for any who disagree with him and often are made up of threats of harm > > (of course from others, not himself) to that person and an unseemly > > desire to see that threat of violence come to fruition. Man are you dense or what? I am not threatening you with violence. I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. I paint those scenarios dramatically so they penetrate that dense fog of ideological unreality you live in. I wish to avert that violence because I live in this society, and I don't want to go down with it. > > > > In an earlier post to this list, I suggested to those who wish to end > > the "culture of violence" that instead of repealing the 2nd amendment, > > that the first amendment might be modified to prohibit the showing of > > violence in the media. Did anyone one of those supposedly so concerned > > about the "culture of violence" respond? Of course not. They are not > > interested in this because they, in fact, are happy to see this violence > > in the media and in our society. They want to see this, because they > > know that it is necessary for their campaign to disarm the American > > people. You are a paranoid monomaniac. You invent these looney scenarios to justify your paranoia. When the American people decide to remove guns from their midst, that's when the government will feel empowered to do so. Theoretically, that's their job. By the way, I don't allow my children to play violent videos or go to violent movies because it damages them. It damages many youngsters. But it makes allot of money. So, like cigarettes and guns, that makes it OK. No one has the right to interfere with Free Speech, or Free Enterprise, or your personal freedom to fuck up anything or anyone. What are you going to do? Restrict " free speech " for Hollywood, or restrict 2nd Amendment right to bear arms? Or just let them both be because some 200 year old dead lawyers and landlords and merchants didn't have the ability to see how overgrown and sick their nation would become just 2 centurys hence. How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many? Does anyone doubt that they are happy to hear of the killings? > > Look what Nurev writes later about the increasing number of people who > > might join his cause: "Oh yeah??? Wanna bet? This country has one, maybe > > two more massacres left before it becomes a groundswell". Does that not > > sound like someone who is looking forward to more such murders? That's a warning of inevitability. Not a desire for carnage. That was a pathetic attempt. You are so self centered that you ( pl ) think we are after you. The intent here is to stop the killing and you and the NRA and some bought politicians are in the way. But every massacre is a nail in the NRA's coffin. Every shot to death citizen, every accidentally killed child brings your time to an end. It's called change. It's called democracy. L
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > nurev wrote: > > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > Whether they be pro-gun or anti-gun, most people would > > > acknowledge that mankind has certain, Inalienable Rights. > > > > Not at all. Rights are a conceptual legal concept. If everybody > > plays along, you have rights. If most, or even many people don't > > play along, you have bupkes. There is nothing inalienable about > > legalisms in the real world. > > > > > > > The above is a most revealing statement. It shows that Nurev has the > same understanding of rights as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and all the > other mass murders of the past (and of the future). They have no concept > of the agreement among mature people to recognize the humanity of others > and not treat them as resources to be exploited and killed if they get > in the way. The very basis of the concept of "rights" comes from our > innate understanding that others value their lives and we cannot take > that life without doing harm to our very soul. (There has been some > postings on this list by a retired military officer about the > difficulties in training young men to kill which go into this more > deeply). We look at ourselves and others and realize that others have a > life which they value as much as we value our own. While Nurev may claim > to wish to ban guns for the good of humanity, it is obvious from his > replies that this is only a cover. His replies often show a deep hatred > for any who disagree with him and often are made up of threats of harm > (of course from others, not himself) to that person and an unseemly > desire to see that threat of violence come to fruition. > > In an earlier post to this list, I suggested to those who wish to end > the "culture of violence" that instead of repealing the 2nd amendment, > that the first amendment might be modified to prohibit the showing of > violence in the media. Did anyone one of those supposedly so concerned > about the "culture of violence" respond? Of course not. They are not > interested in this because they, in fact, are happy to see this violence > in the media and in our society. They want to see this, because they > know that it is necessary for their campaign to disarm the American > people. Does anyone doubt that they are happy to hear of the killings? > Look what Nurev writes later about the increasing number of people who > might join his cause: "Oh yeah??? Wanna bet? This country has one, maybe > two more massacres left before it becomes a groundswell". Does that not > sound like someone who is looking forward to more such murders? > > On several occasions Nurev has threatened his critics with a future > revolution of the people. He seems to enjoy fantasizing about a future > revolution against the "capitalists" who he seems to fear will take over > the government. (They haven't already?) Yet here he wants to take away > their guns. What kind of sense does that make? Of course, Nurev probably > has a nice useless government job and really doesn't care a bit about > the "people". > > Howard Davis > Clap, Clap, clap, clap, clap,...Howard, this is a most thoughtful and accurate analysis. I only wish I had said it. Jim Norman DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Whether they be pro-gun or anti-gun, most people would > > acknowledge that mankind has certain, Inalienable Rights. > > Not at all. Rights are a conceptual legal concept. If everybody > plays along, you have rights. If most, or even many people don't > play along, you have bupkes. There is nothing inalienable about > legalisms in the real world. > > > The above is a most revealing statement. It shows that Nurev has the same understanding of rights as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and all the other mass murders of the past (and of the future). They have no concept of the agreement among mature people to recognize the humanity of others and not treat them as resources to be exploited and killed if they get in the way. The very basis of the concept of "rights" comes from our innate understanding that others value their lives and we cannot take that life without doing harm to our very soul. (There has been some postings on this list by a retired military officer about the difficulties in training young men to kill which go into this more deeply). We look at ourselves and others and realize that others have a life which they value as much as we value our own. While Nurev may claim to wish to ban guns for the good of humanity, it is obvious from his replies that this is only a cover. His replies often show a deep hatred for any who disagree with him and often are made up of threats of harm (of course from others, not himself) to that person and an unseemly desire to see that threat of violence come to fruition. In an earlier post to this list, I suggested to those who wish to end the "culture of violence" that instead of repealing the 2nd amendment, that the first amendment might be modified to prohibit the showing of violence in the media. Did anyone one of those supposedly so concerned about the "culture of violence" respond? Of course not. They are not interested in this because they, in fact, are happy to see this violence in the media and in our society. They want to see this, because they know that it is necessary for their campaign to disarm the American people. Does anyone doubt that they are happy to hear of the killings? Look what Nurev writes later about the increasing number of people who might join his cause: "Oh yeah??? Wanna bet? This country has one, maybe two more massacres left before it becomes a groundswell". Does that not sound like someone who is looking forward to more such murders? On several occasions Nurev has threatened his critics with a future revolution of the people. He seems to enjoy fantasizing about a future revolution against the "capitalists" who he seems to fear will take over the government. (They haven't already?) Yet here he wants to take away their guns. What kind of sense does that make? Of course, Nurev probably has a nice useless government job and really doesn't care a bit about the "people". Howard Davis DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- At 04:25 PM 5/9/99 -0700, nurev wrote: >> "Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat." >> >> --Hermann Goering, radio broadcast (1936) > >Who is this Herman guy? Some fat NRA redneck from Idaho? Can't >even spell his own name right. *** ... ;; ;; :; ;:' :; ;:; ;. ,:' ; OOO\ ::; ; O\ ;:; ; ,;::; ;' / OOO ;:`. ,,,;./ / DOO .';:;, / / D ,::;::;, / /DOOO ;`::`'::;;;: ,#/ / DOOO :`:::`;::;;::: ;::# /DOOO ::`:::`; ;# / DOO `:`:::`;:: ;::#/ DOO :::`:::`;; ;:##OO `:::`;;:::#OO `:`;'`:;::#O `:`;' / / `:# o ::`:;' / / `# o o o o o "h." /# /_\_ ._ . "Who is this Herman guy? | |/o\o\ |\_|/__\| Some fat NRA guy from Idaho? | \\_/_/ / / \/ \ \ Can't even spell his own / |_ | /__|O||O|__ \name right." | ||\_ ~||/_ \_/\_/ _\ | Please let me know as I'm | ||| \/ | | () | || quite stupid and clueless | |||_ \/\___/\__/ // \// | (_/ || || || NUREV || ||_ \ | ||\ \_| o| \//_/ /\___/ \__// / __ __ || __|| (___)_) (() --- "Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > Previous thread: Re: [CTRL] Remember to say "Guns save lives... > > In a message dated 99-05-01 12:27:43 EDT, Joshua2 spews: > <> > > Yes, it is unquestionable. Rather than providing a long list of the > leading constitutional lawyers who agree that the Constitution > is clear on this issue, we might suggest Joshua2 do his own > homework before flying off the handle and looking so foolish. I question it. Others question too. But do enjoy your surety while you can. > > What we all must understand, is that the Constitution itself has > been suspended for some time now (War Powers, etc.). We > have seen this fact documented in previous posts to this group. > > Critical to our approach to this debate, is to realize that the > Constitution, whether it be suspended or not, is verily, IN- > CAPABLE of making guaranties toward the Rights of men. There you go. Now you've got it. > > INALIENABLE RIGHTS > > Whether they be pro-gun or anti-gun, most people would > acknowledge that mankind has certain, Inalienable Rights. Not at all. Rights are a conceptual legal concept. If everybody plays along, you have rights. If most, or even many people don't play along, you have bupkes. There is nothing inalienable about legalisms in the real world. > > Since the dawn of time, since mankind had children to protect; > and since mankind had realized that he possessed SOMETHING > which others would TAKE: Mankind has sought out ways to pro- > tect that which has been placed under his care. That is why god invented Judo. > > Undoubtedly, primative mankind utilized the most primative > "home defense" weapon of them all: THE ROCK. > snip> > NRA: The Neanderthal Rock Association > > The anti-rock picketers held signs that said, "ROCKS KILL" > > While pro-rock Rights advocates wore square (the wheel > had not yet been realized) buttons that stated: > > "You'll take my rock out of my cold, dead fingers." I admire this philosophy allot. I would like to see it become the core philosophy of gun nuts in America. But words are cheap. It's action that counts. I know you guys have the right stuff to prove that Darwin is right. Keep up the good work! > If Joshua2 is earnest in his desire to live in a country > without guns, HE SHOULD MOVE TO ONE. No thanks I'd rather live in this one. > > In a message dated 99-05-01 12:27:43 EDT, Joshua2 spews: > <> > > "Fuckers" as a pronoun, how quaint. With that in mind, I am > now offering 10 to 1 odds-- that Joshua2 is NOT in the running > as a future candidate to be a contestant on Jeopardy. You are correct. > > In a message dated 99-05-01 12:27:43 EDT, Joshua2 spews: > <> > > Since the ratification of their own gun laws, Canada reports > that gun-shot wounds are down dramatically; yet, the exact > opposite may be said of their new problem of homicides > commited by stabbing. Thank you. I'll take my chances against loonies with knives. If those dear boys in Colorado had knives instead of guns, well... > > Does the term-- "lethal devices" -- include steak and butcher knives? > > (What about those evil rocks, too?) C'mon, don't get stupid now. This shit works on NRA types not on people who actually think. > Seriously, though, are we to forget the lessons of our history? > > ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS, ABSOLUTELY. > > "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every >one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will pre- >serve it but downright FORCE. Whenver you give up that FORCE, >you are ruined." > > -- Patrick Henry, at the Virginia Convention No one is talking about giving up force. I'm talking about removing guns from the hands of a deranged society. > > Are gun owners to actually believe that they can set down > their guns and trust the government?worse still I am much less fearful of the government such as it is, than I am of a society like this awash in guns. That's the point. THAT'S THE POINT. And when there are enough Americans who have had it with NRA and its gaggle of little paranoid duckies, then if you are really sincere gun nuts, you will have the opportunity to show the ATF and FBI what you are made of. > > The "powers that be" have already shown their lack of trust to- > ward the public, and this mistrust is voiced in the NWO robots > like Joshua2-- I? An NWO robot? Ahhh ha ha ha ha ha ha. > > "Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat." > > --Hermann Goering, radio broadcast (1936) Who is this Herman guy? Some fat NRA redneck from Idaho? Can't even spell his own name right. snip > > It is always the ruling class, behind the scenes, using the puppeted > responses of Joshua2's everywhere, in their attempt to convince man > that ONLY the government should have guns. When gun control is > proclaimed from the puppets, it appears as a "grass-roots" campaign, > and not the blatant NWO propaganda which leads to a police state.
Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- >NO, history has shown us time and again, that this pattern of disarming the peoples leads to their own enslavement and/or annihilation. "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- Malcolm X DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."
-Caveat Lector- Previous thread: Re: [CTRL] Remember to say "Guns save lives... In a message dated 99-05-01 12:27:43 EDT, Joshua2 spews: <> Yes, it is unquestionable. Rather than providing a long list of the leading constitutional lawyers who agree that the Constitution is clear on this issue, we might suggest Joshua2 do his own homework before flying off the handle and looking so foolish. What we all must understand, is that the Constitution itself has been suspended for some time now (War Powers, etc.). We have seen this fact documented in previous posts to this group. Critical to our approach to this debate, is to realize that the Constitution, whether it be suspended or not, is verily, IN- CAPABLE of making guaranties toward the Rights of men. INALIENABLE RIGHTS Whether they be pro-gun or anti-gun, most people would acknowledge that mankind has certain, Inalienable Rights. Since the dawn of time, since mankind had children to protect; and since mankind had realized that he possessed SOMETHING which others would TAKE: Mankind has sought out ways to pro- tect that which has been placed under his care. Undoubtedly, primative mankind utilized the most primative "home defense" weapon of them all: THE ROCK. We might wonder how long the forefathers of today's NWO crowd protested, forming human (like) chains around a mountain, where, inside one of it's caves, was held the first NRA meeting NRA: The Neanderthal Rock Association The anti-rock picketers held signs that said, "ROCKS KILL" While pro-rock Rights advocates wore square (the wheel had not yet been realized) buttons that stated: "You'll take my rock out of my cold, dead fingers." So long as mankind has loved ones, property, or Inalienable Rights, which are continually held in jeopardy by the hands of those who desire to rule mankind with an iron fist, we will never see a successful ban on rocks, kitchen utensils, or guns. There exist, on this globe, plenty of citizens in other countries who have made the mistake of handing over their guns to gov- ernments that became their Big Brother for life; and we have all [at least] witnessed the effectiveness of the Chinese dis- sidents throwing rocks at tanks. At the end of the day, the rock throwers go home, still living in a communist country. If Joshua2 is earnest in his desire to live in a country without guns, HE SHOULD MOVE TO ONE. In a message dated 99-05-01 12:27:43 EDT, Joshua2 spews: <> "Fuckers" as a pronoun, how quaint. With that in mind, I am now offering 10 to 1 odds-- that Joshua2 is NOT in the running as a future candidate to be a contestant on Jeopardy. In a message dated 99-05-01 12:27:43 EDT, Joshua2 spews: <> Since the ratification of their own gun laws, Canada reports that gun-shot wounds are down dramatically; yet, the exact opposite may be said of their new problem of homicides commited by stabbing. Does the term-- "lethal devices" -- include steak and butcher knives? (What about those evil rocks, too?) Having evolved so little from your neanderthal anti-NRA forefathersWill you, Joshua2, ape their footsteps? (INSERT: NRA/Charleton Heston vs. The Planet of the Apes joke) lol Seriously, though, are we to forget the lessons of our history? ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS, ABSOLUTELY. "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will pre- serve it but downright FORCE. Whenver you give up that FORCE, you are ruined." -- Patrick Henry, at the Virginia Convention Are gun owners to actually believe that they can set down their guns and trust the government?worse still Are gun owners to trust those BEHIND the government, to act in an honorable fashion toward the Inalienable Rights of men, *after* they have removed the "FORCE" with which mankind would have defended those Rights? Has history revealed this to be the pattern of success? NO, history has shown us time and again, that this pattern of disarming the peoples leads to their own enslavement and/or annihilation. Certainly, those who propose to take the "FORCE" behind man- kinds ability to defend himself from tyranny, will NOT be trusted. Neither will the gun owner relinquish his ownership. The "powers that be" have already shown their lack of trust to- ward the public, and this mistrust is voiced in the NWO robots like Joshua2-- who have been brainwashed into NOT realizing that the defense of ALL mankind's Inalienable Rights are hinged SOLELY upon the Right to DEFEND THEM. All of the actions of the CFR and the Trilateral Commission clearly point toward their disbelief and contempt toward the ability of the masses to govern AND protect themselves. Has not history already shown us time and time again, that when the masses become unable to defend themselves, a class of dictatorship emerges? "Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat." --Hermann Goering, radio broadcast (1936) Throughout
