Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[BStokes45]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 98-12-15 18:21:39 EST, Che writes:

 I brought up Bu sh  Rea gan to emphasize the similarities between the
 Republocrats  Demicans.  They all eat from the same dog dish.  The purpose
 is not to distract but to point out that C1inton is part of a continuing
 pattern of abuse of pres idential power.

Can't really argue with that.

Che writes:
 Seems to me that he's somewhere to the right of Nixon.

Right...Left... Both Statist for sure, the line between right and left is
somewhat unclear to me.  I say left because Clinton gave away parks and rivers
to the United Nations and I consider them left.  He sold/gave missle guidance
systems to the Chinese which are Communist, the same for super computers and
cryptographic know-how and equipment.

Che writes:
 If you would just turn on your TV on a Sunday morning, or MSNBC just about
 any time (all Monica...all the time), you might change your tune.  The few
 voices supportive of C1inton will be drowned out by those hurling bile 
 invective at him.

All I've heard about is the (all Monica...all the time) which has little to do
with the serious crimes (treason) which Clinton is getting away with.

Che writes:
 Did you ever read the "Pressgate" article in the 1st issue of Brill's
 Content?  It was very critical of the trial by press leaks that Ken 5tarr
 has conducted.  In an interview 5tarr virtually admits to the leaks (in
 violation of Rule 6E), giving the justification that they were necessary to
 counterspin information from the Wh1te H0use.  Brill is also critical of
 the inability of the press to "bite the hand that feeds it" by questioning
 the legality of these leaks.  He also criticized how the press replaced
 reportage of facts with speculation and conjecture by so-called "experts".
 In conclusion, the article is fairly damning of the press for failing to
 execute their duties as impartial reporters of fact.

 Even before the article was published, the media attacks began.  Brill was
 painted as a C1inton stooge for a contribution he gave to the '92 campaign
 (none in '96).  I did not see anyone in the mainstream media even address
 Brill's criticisms - they were too busy slurring him, questioning his
 accuracy, and deflecting the discussion to unrelated matters.  It was all
 so consistent it seemed orchestrated.  Very supportive of the articles you
 posted on the lack of an independent press.

I haven't read the Brill report, but I did read about Starr leaking items to
the press.  I also read some articles about the White House leaking items to
the press to make Starr look bad.  Who did what?  Probably both are true and
as far as I'm concerned if Starr broke the law, then he should also be
prosecuted, but I'm not sure that rule 6E is a law or a guide line... at the
very least toss him as a special prosecuter and put someone in there that will
investigate the more serious crimes... not that to lie under oath is not
serious.

Che writes:
 Now, you may see this as just sour grapes on their part, but there's more
 to it than that.  The power elites definitely felt threatened by this
 article, and trained their media guns on Brill to discredit him.  If the
 media was really "support[ing] C1inton all the time", then they would have
 fallen all over themselves to dig deeper into the questions Brill raised
 about 5tarr's office.  By no stretch of the imagination can their attacks
 on Brill be construed as being supportive of C1inton.

 An important point to remember is that an attack on 5tarr does not
 necessarily indicate support of C1inton.  Some of us who consider C1inton
 to be guilty of something think that the letter of the law should be
 followed, and that the O I C represents a threat to what little democracy
 we have left.  The ends DO NOT justify the means.

I really need to look close at this Brill report.  You are right that the law
should be followed in the impeachment proceedings, otherwise it will just be
thrown out later on.  As for Democracy... we are supposed to be a Republic.


 At 03:21 PM 12/13/98 -0800, nurev wrote:
 High crimes, treason, bribery. C1inton has committed all of these. The
 problem is that the rest of the more powerful politicians have done
 the same.

 What you are witnessing is an attempted coup by the right wing. They
 want to throw C1inton off the apple cart without tipping over the apple
 cart. Sit back with this in mind and watch how it's done. It's been done
 before. The 1ran/C0ntra hearings are the blueprint for what happens next.
The
 real crimes will be avoided. The minor issues will be exagerated, and they
 will get C1inton out or cripple him severely enough to render him useless.
 UNLESS THINGS GET OUT OF CONTROL IN THE SEN ATE. This is the best we have to
 hope for as citizens. That they will hate each other enough to do each
 other real damage in the eyes of the voters, hopefully ending in some
 seriously
 needed reforms.

 This is essentially my take on the situation as well. 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Che]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 10:04 AM 12/14/98 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Why is it that every time something is posted about Commie Lover C1inton
all we hear about is Bu sh and Re agan.  Seems to be a conspiracy to keep any
topic off C1inton and some people on this list said they were "conservative."

I brought up Bu sh  Rea gan to emphasize the similarities between the
Republocrats  Demicans.  They all eat from the same dog dish.  The purpose
is not to distract but to point out that C1inton is part of a continuing
pattern of abuse of pres idential power.


C1inton is as far to the left as anyone can get without being called
"Comrade."

Seems to me that he's somewhere to the right of Nixon.


"IF" the media is owned by the Republicans why does it support
C1inton all the time?  Reag an and Bu sh have nothing to do with a discussion
about C1inton, they were not subject to impeachment no matter what you say...
C1inton is.

If you would just turn on your TV on a Sunday morning, or MSNBC just about
any time (all Monica...all the time), you might change your tune.  The few
voices supportive of C1inton will be drowned out by those hurling bile 
invective at him.

Did you ever read the "Pressgate" article in the 1st issue of Brill's
Content?  It was very critical of the trial by press leaks that Ken 5tarr
has conducted.  In an interview 5tarr virtually admits to the leaks (in
violation of Rule 6E), giving the justification that they were necessary to
counterspin information from the Wh1te H0use.  Brill is also critical of
the inability of the press to "bite the hand that feeds it" by questioning
the legality of these leaks.  He also criticized how the press replaced
reportage of facts with speculation and conjecture by so-called "experts".
In conclusion, the article is fairly damning of the press for failing to
execute their duties as impartial reporters of fact.

Even before the article was published, the media attacks began.  Brill was
painted as a C1inton stooge for a contribution he gave to the '92 campaign
(none in '96).  I did not see anyone in the mainstream media even address
Brill's criticisms - they were too busy slurring him, questioning his
accuracy, and deflecting the discussion to unrelated matters.  It was all
so consistent it seemed orchestrated.  Very supportive of the articles you
posted on the lack of an independent press.

Now, you may see this as just sour grapes on their part, but there's more
to it than that.  The power elites definitely felt threatened by this
article, and trained their media guns on Brill to discredit him.  If the
media was really "support[ing] C1inton all the time", then they would have
fallen all over themselves to dig deeper into the questions Brill raised
about 5tarr's office.  By no stretch of the imagination can their attacks
on Brill be construed as being supportive of C1inton.

An important point to remember is that an attack on 5tarr does not
necessarily indicate support of C1inton.  Some of us who consider C1inton
to be guilty of something think that the letter of the law should be
followed, and that the O I C represents a threat to what little democracy
we have left.  The ends DO NOT justify the means.


At 03:21 PM 12/13/98 -0800, nurev wrote:
High crimes, treason, bribery. C1inton has committed all of these. The
problem is that the rest of the more powerful politicians have done
the same.

What you are witnessing is an attempted coup by the right wing. They
want to throw C1inton off the apple cart without tipping over the apple
cart. Sit back with this in mind and watch how it's done. It's been done
before. The 1ran/C0ntra hearings are the blueprint for what happens next. The
real crimes will be avoided. The minor issues will be exagerated, and they
will get C1inton out or cripple him severely enough to render him useless.
UNLESS THINGS GET OUT OF CONTROL IN THE SEN ATE. This is the best we have to
hope for as citizens. That they will hate each other enough to do each
other real damage in the eyes of the voters, hopefully ending in some
seriously
needed reforms.

This is essentially my take on the situation as well.


Che

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Che wrote:
I brought up Bu sh  Rea gan to emphasize the similarities between the
Republocrats  Demicans.  They all eat from the same dog dish.

What an insult to canines!

No self-respecting dog I've ever known would eat from the same dish as
THAT crowd!  ;-)

I think it would be a better country if dogs DID take over from the
Republicrats!

At least we'd know the White House wasn't being used as a 'cat house'...


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
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/!\_| _|
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  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks, but I would wonder about ole Ronnie. Have you read Moldea's Dark
Victory and/or Freed's Secret Life of Ronald Reagan?  What would a 'B'  do to
play 'AAA'?

Exactly.  Reagan is probably WORSE, since he was so good at hiding it
behind his teflon veneer...

Which gives me an opening for once more 'trolling' a nagging question
regarding Ronnie and his politics (and with apologies to those on the
list who've read this from me before)...

But shortly after Reagan won the election in 1980, I read an article in a
mainstream magazine (I believe it was something like Parade), where the
actress June Allyson discussed her life...it wasn't a particularly
political interview, but there WERE a few interesting paragraphs in the
middle of the article where she mentioned the relationship/friendship she
and her then husband, Dick Powell, had with the Reagans in the late 40s,
early 50s...

Ronald Reagan was president of the actor's union at the time, and
professed a political philosophy that was extremely left of center...
while Powell's politics were extremely 'rightwing'...

So it seems strange that two men with such ostensibly divergent views
would not only be friends, but would come over to each others' houses at
least once a week for dinner...but this is the scenario Ms. Allyson
presented...

And she said that Dick and Ron would often get into heated political
arguments...Allyson presented herself as being 'apolitical' and not
getting into these arguments herself, and claims not to remember the
exact arguments, only that they'd always disagree, and heatedly so...

But according to her, one night at one of these dinners, when Dick and
Ron were beginning to get into one of these arguments, Dick took Ron
alone into the Powell's library and closed (and locked?  how would
Allyson have known it was locked?) the doors...and according to Allyson,
it got very quiet in there, and after about 20 minutes they both came
out...at which time, Ron's political philosophy had taken a 180 degree
turn, and he was now as 'rightwing' as Dick Powell...

Allyson recounted this incident as the 'defining' moment when Ronald
Reagan went from being liberal to conservative, and gave her ex-husband
the credit for 'bringing Ron around'...

As I said, the article wasn't particularly about Reagan nor even
political, and after recounting the above, the article went into other
matters...but it always stuck with me, wondering just WHAT Powell said
and/or did behind those closed doors that was able to turn Reagan from a
liberal to a conservative in 20 minutes, after months of weekly heated
arguments had failed...

And so I ask the list membership the question I always ask when I've
recounted this -- does anyone remember this article, or hearing this
story elsewhere?  And more importantly, does anyone have a clue as to
what Powell said or did to Reagan during those 20 minutes?

I personally don't have a clue, but when I read that article it gave me
the creeps...I mean, if someone's ideals can be so easily turned in only
20 minutes, it implies either a weak (or non-existent) mind/ego, and
possibly a mind-control scenario of the Manchurian Candidate type...


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
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 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

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 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
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==
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gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I believe that I mentioned that the Reagan Administration was peopled with
white collar criminals Wall Street, CIA... they swooped in from
everywhere.  I wouldn't take issue with any of the items you mentioned.
However, you have no proof that Reagan himself had personal knowledge, any
more than I have proof that he did not.

Then you argue that if Reagan had no personal knowledge, then he was
grossly incompetent...   ;-)


June

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 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[BStokes45]

 -Caveat Lector-

 Why is it that every time something is posted about Commie Lover Clinton
all we hear about is Bush and Reagan.  Seems to be a conspiracy to keep any
topic off Clinton and some people on this list said they were "conservative."
Clinton is as far to the left as anyone can get without being called
"Comrade."  "IF" the media is owned by the Republicans why does it support
Clinton all the time?  Reagan and Bush have nothing to do with a discussion
about Clinton, they were not subject to impeachment no matter what you say...
Clinton is.

 The "press" has been against free speech and truth since before I was
born and probably a lot longer and I'm approaching the half century mark. As
for the last Honorable President...

Regards,
Bob Stokes

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time
Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our
meetings and respected their promise of discretion for almost forty
years ... It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for
the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity
during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and
prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational
sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely
preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past
centuries" - David Rockefeller, in an address given to Catherine Graham,
publisher of The Washington Post and other media luminaries in
attendance in Baden Baden, Germany at the June 1991 annual meeting of
the world elite Bilderberg Group

"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history in America,
as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of
you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know
beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for
keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others
of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who
would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the
street looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to
appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation
would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth;
to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon,
and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it
and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We
are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the
jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our
possibilities, and our lives are all the property of other men. We are
intellectual prostitutes" - John Swinton, former chief of staff, The New
York Times, in a 1953 speech before the New York Press Club

"We are going to impose our agenda on the coverage by dealing with
issues and subjects that we choose to deal with" - Richard M. Cohen,
former Senior Producer of CBS political news

"Our job is to give people not what they want, but what we decide they
ought to have" - Richard Salant, former President of CBS News

"The real truth of the matter is, and you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since
the days of Andrew Jackson. History depicts Andrew Jackson as the last
truly honorable and incorruptible American president" - President
Franklin Delano Roosevelt, November 23, 1933 in a letter to Colonel
Edward Mandell House

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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 11:27:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  At issue is that
  RR owed up to what happened and BC refuses to do so.

"Mistakes were made" is owning up?

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

 Why is it that every time something is posted about Commie Lover Clinton
 all we hear about is Bush and Reagan.

Which part of the Mena operation do you not understand?

  Seems to be a conspiracy to keep any
 topic off Clinton and some people on this list said they were "conservative."
 Clinton is as far to the left as anyone can get without being called
 "Comrade."  "IF" the media is owned by the Republicans why does it support
 Clinton all the time?

The media is controlled by the same corporate interests that control the
Republicans and the Democrats. That political reality cares little about these
"left" and "conservative" word games.

 Reagan and Bush have nothing to do with a discussion about Clinton,

You can only say this by ignoring the facts.

 they were not subject to impeachment no matter what you say...Clinton is.

The occupant of the White House is fully aware of the non-electoral, extra-legal
processes that put him there. I don't cheer Clinton's weaseling out of impeachment
(and he will; no way to get 2/3s in the Senate), and I almost admire your naivete
in insisting that it was different with Reagan/Bush. But at the half-century mark,
that naivete can only be willful.

kt

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Jim Kinney]

 -Caveat Lector-

(Parts of this are in reference to the message being responded to in the
message quoted)

Exactly which form of communism are you referring to?  The failed
authoritarian right-wing Russian and Chinese models or the idealistic
left-wing view (I hate this whole Aristolean dualistic thing, but it
seems to be the model used here) that has never been seen in any world
government to the best of my knowledge?  They are definitely not the
same thing.  I think that a strong argument can be made that the Chinese
version of communism is actually a very conservative and extreme
right-wing (if we have to label these things so) organization.  Also, to
the best of my knowledge the presidential impeachment proceedings have
nothing to do with Mena.  I'm not arguing that isn't guilty in the whole
Mena fiasco, I feel that he may be, but the impeachment proceedings just
don't have anything to do with it (yet at least).  He cannot be
impeached due to Mena if no one ever brings it up in the proceedings.

-Original Message-
From:   Kenn Thomas [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Monday, December 14, 1998 10:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Re: [CTRL] "Heads Up": Bill Clinton Is Finished

 -Caveat Lector-

 Why is it that every time something is posted about Commie
Lover Clinton
 all we hear about is Bush and Reagan.

Which part of the Mena operation do you not understand?

  Seems to be a conspiracy to keep any
 topic off Clinton and some people on this list said they were
"conservative."
 Clinton is as far to the left as anyone can get without being
called
 "Comrade."  "IF" the media is owned by the Republicans why
does it support
 Clinton all the time?

The media is controlled by the same corporate interests that
control the
Republicans and the Democrats. That political reality cares
little about these
"left" and "conservative" word games.

 Reagan and Bush have nothing to do with a discussion about
Clinton,

You can only say this by ignoring the facts.

 they were not subject to impeachment no matter what you
say...Clinton is.

The occupant of the White House is fully aware of the
non-electoral, extra-legal
processes that put him there. I don't cheer Clinton's weaseling
out of impeachment
(and he will; no way to get 2/3s in the Senate), and I almost
admire your naivete
in insisting that it was different with Reagan/Bush. But at the
half-century mark,
that naivete can only be willful.

kt


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/14/98 10:04:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 "conservative."
  Clinton is as far to the left as anyone can get without being called
  "Comrade."  "IF" the media is owned by the Republicans why does it
 support
  Clinton all the time?

We have not had a liberal president since LBJ.  Clinton is the most
conservative Democratic president since then.

Your claim that the news media supports Clinton makes no sense.  If the news
media is his friend, no enemies need apply.

Jerry Harp

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[E Mael]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
And so I ask the list membership the question I always ask when I've
recounted this -- does anyone remember this article, or hearing this
story elsewhere?  And more importantly, does anyone have a clue as to
what Powell said or did to Reagan during those 20 minutes?


i believe it was a david niven annecdote from his series of biographical
books.

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

  anti-Clinton is verboten.

I have not posted anything pro-Clinton. His sell-out to the Chinese was more than
a crime against the US, it was one against the world. The threat of the military
satellite hardware he sold to the Chinese for the sake of donations to the
Democrats apparently was the real reason behind India's nuclear blasts. It does,
however, fall into the category of the October Surprise, where traitorous Reagan
made a deal with enemy Iran in order to steal the election from Carter. We know he
did it, but we can't prove it, and he will never be held accountable for it. He
even repeated the pattern with Iran-contra and yet people still regard him as
honorable.

 "Conservative" to me means a strict interpretation of the Constitution...
 something both parties ignore.  Selective use of laws allows the media to be
 controlled.  Corporations should have their power taken away by revoking their
 charters for bribing officials and officials can be recalled for accepting
 bribes.  Clinton takes bribes even from foreign countries hostile to the US
 such as Communist China... do you deny that also?

Clinton has been up front in acknowledging that presidential power does not come
from the Constitution but from secret ruling elites, who work for transnational
corporate interests. This is the basic premise of Carroll Quigley's Tragedy and
Hope, and Clinton regarded Quigley as his mentor at Georgetown, quoted him at the
Democratic con. Secret elites and corporatism have not ordinarily been defined as
the "left."

 Again trying to change the subject.  Reagan and Bush are no longer in office,
 you cannot impeach them.  However, if Clinton is impeached for his drug
 involvement and bribe taking... this may open the door for cleaning out all of
 Congress to include the "Evil Republicans"   why can't you see that?

I'm with you on this, Bob. Impeach the son of a bitch. In fact, as Christopher
Hitchens (a "leftist") says, cuff him and take him downtown. But it's not gonna
happen. Clinton has the same protection as his pals Reagan and Bush.

  Bush may have talked about the NWO, but Clinton is ushering it in with a red
 carpet, our money, and soon our blood.

All at the behest of Bush, who Clinton covered up for at Mena, whose sons now run
Texas and Florida, whose oil American blood will be shed over. That's not just
talk.

kt

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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up Bill Clinton Is Finished

[BStokes45]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 98-12-14 14:37:53 EST, you write:

 I have not posted anything pro-Clinton. His sell-out to the Chinese was
more than
 a crime against the US, it was one against the world. The threat of the
military
 satellite hardware he sold to the Chinese for the sake of donations to the
 Democrats apparently was the real reason behind India's nuclear blasts. It
does,
 however, fall into the category of the October Surprise, where traitorous
Reagan
 made a deal with enemy Iran in order to steal the election from Carter. We
know he
 did it, but we can't prove it, and he will never be held accountable for it.
He
 even repeated the pattern with Iran-contra and yet people still regard him as
 honorable.

 I have often thought that since Reagan was so incompetent and merely a
mouthpiece, that Bush was running the Presidency even while Ronnie was in
office.



 Clinton has been up front in acknowledging that presidential power does not
come
 from the Constitution but from secret ruling elites, who work for
transnational
 corporate interests. This is the basic premise of Carroll Quigley's Tragedy
and
 Hope, and Clinton regarded Quigley as his mentor at Georgetown, quoted him at
the
 Democratic con. Secret elites and corporatism have not ordinarily been
defined as
 the "left."

 Corporatism I would define as very right wing, but I'm not sure how to
define the secret elites.  I would also add that banking also plays a big part
in the secret government.  As for Q...

"The CFR [Council On Foreign Relations, New York City] is the American
Branch of a society which originated in England and believes national
directives should be obliterated and one-world rule established. I know
of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty
years, and was permitted in the early 1960's to examine its papers and
secret records ... I believe its role in history is significant enough
to be known" - Dr. Carroll Quigley, Professor of International
Relations, Georgetown University Foreign Service School, Washington,
D.C., author of the epic "Tragedy  Hope", advocate of one-world
government and personal mentor of President William Clinton (who
acknowledged Professor Quigley during his 1992 presidential inauguration
speech)


 I'm with you on this, Bob. Impeach the son of a bitch. In fact, as
Christopher
 Hitchens (a "leftist") says, cuff him and take him downtown. But it's not
gonna
 happen. Clinton has the same protection as his pals Reagan and Bush.

 To bad we can't just oust the bunch of them and start over.  Impeachment
could get through the House, but not the Senate... we have no leadership in
either.

   Bush may have talked about the NWO, but Clinton is ushering it in with a
red
  carpet, our money, and soon our blood.

 All at the behest of Bush, who Clinton covered up for at Mena, whose sons
now run Texas and Florida, whose oil American blood will be shed over. That's
not just
 talk. 

 It may go farther than that.  I think George Jr. will be the next
President and if he is anything like his Dad or Grandfather... we'll be up to
our necks in trouble.

Excellent Thinking,
Regards,
Bob Stokes/PRE/HTML

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, I don't discount the idea that something was done to him in that time
period.  I'm aware of his change of political position.  I was not aware of
this incident.  It probably would be of value to try and find something about
Powell.

What little I know, Powell apparantly was the head of, or at least
influential with, the extremely conservative, rightwing Hollywood crowd
of the era...1930s until his death...he was basically Reagan's
counterpart on the right...(which makes their weekly get-togethers even
MORE intriguing)...

Implications were that he held 'Nazi-sympathies'...and that he had
dealings with important conservatives outside of Hollywood...but it's
always been shadowy, and I got a feeling from the article that Allyson,
rather than being the unquestioning apolitical wife she claimed to be,
actually knew more than she was willing to discuss in the article...

As I said, there's never been a lot said/written about Dick Powell and
his politics (a deliberate coverup?), but it DOES seem he was moving in
some influential circles in the 1950s...

As a sidebar (which perhaps has something to do with a potential
'conspiracy', perhaps not), it's interesting that both Powell AND Reagan
found renewed popularity in the new medium of television in the 50s 
early 60s...Reagan on 'Death Valley Days', and Powell on a series which
(if my memory serves me correctly) was an anthology of 'serious' drama,
along the lines of 'Playhouse 90'...


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
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/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/14/98 8:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  As a sidebar (which perhaps has something to do with a potential
  'conspiracy', perhaps not), it's interesting that both Powell AND Reagan
  found renewed popularity in the new medium of television in the 50s 
  early 60s...Reagan on 'Death Valley Days', and Powell on a series which
  (if my memory serves me correctly) was an anthology of 'serious' drama,
  along the lines of 'Playhouse 90'...

Reagan hosted General Electric Theatre which was similar to Playhouse 90.
Could you have the two reversed? My memory is fuzzy too, but I seem to recall
that GE Theatre was the first time Reagan made any serious sustained money.
And OK, who wants to be first to step up and make the ominous connection with
the evil General Electric?

Jim

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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Teo1000]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/14/98 3:34:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  It may go farther than that.  I think George, Jr., be the next
 President and if he is anything like his Dad or Grandfather... we'll be up to
 our necks in trouble.

 Excellent Thinking,
 Regards,
 Bob Stokes
  

Barring martial law by Clinton in an effort to become king for life, it is my
prediction that IF G. Bush Jr., for office in 2000 he WILL win.  Period.  Then
the real fun begins as we kiss everything we hold dear good-bye.
Teo1000

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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/13/98 9:32:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 
   Reagan!?!  I mentioned before about how Reagan derailed half of Garrison's
   investigation, but good lord, do the words "iran-contra" mean anything to
  anyone
   any more? What about "October Surprise"? The rip-off of PROMIS and the
 death
  of
   Danny Casolaro? Even things like Clinton's entanglement in the Mena drugs-
  and-guns
   operation trace back to Reagan/Bush/Ollie North. Sorry, Reagan ain't no
  honorable
   man, no way.
 
   Btw, Dan Moldea has another, more recent book about RFK I think, but I'm a
 t
  a
   loss for the title. Anyone have that?
 
   kt
 
 
 I believe that I mentioned that the Reagan Administration was peopled with
 white collar criminals Wall Street, CIA... they swooped in from
 everywhere.  I wouldn't take issue with any of the items you mentioned.
 However, you have no proof that Reagan himself had personal knowledge, any
 more than I have proof that he did not.

 Jim

I think it's pretty clear that Reagan never had personal knowledge of
anything.
Joshua2

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==
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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Che]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 08:36 PM 12/12/98 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
covering for the current president since before his first election. For years
prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..Are
you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?

That would explain the big stink raised by the so-called "liberal media"
when Brill's Content printed their "Pressgate" story.  You'd think Steven
Brill was an enemy of the Rupublic for daring to question the media's cozy
relationship w/ Ken Starr.  Wake up kids, the mainstream media is about as
liberal as Ronald Reagan.


Yes, it is surprising that the polls say this - if they are legitimate.

If you don't believe the polls, try crawling out of your troll cave
sometime and asking your fellow citizens how they feel about the subject.
Being social isn't that difficult, in fact I consider it to be and
important part of citizenship.  I've had trouble finding anyone, even a
registered Republican, that is for impeachment (A caveat - I'm from Oregon;
Republicans are a little different here).


Actually the most frightening element would be the possibility that these
polls might indeed be true, which would prove that our society has finally
devolved literally into "the ignorant masses."  I would not argue that
"neither the Congressional majority nor the media care a fig what the
electorate wants," but in fairness, and in the interest of accuracy, I would
have to add that neither does the congressional minority.

I had an interesting conversation w/ some coworkers at the company
Christmas party tonite.  First there was a discussion about how Clinton's
sexual peccadillos were nothing compared to Bush's involvement in the both
the SL  Iran/Contra scandals.  Then we discussed Bush's ties w/ C I A
drug running.  A coworker and his wife from Texas acted like the Bush/C I
A/drug connection was common knowledge.  I can hardly characterize them as
being a part of "the ignorant masses".


If you mean Jimmy Carter, yes he's been laughed
at quite a bit, but not by the media. His problem was simply incompetence; he
simply wasn't up to the job. But that is not a part of his historical legacy.
His legacy is merely that he was a very nice man. And this brings us to Mr.
Clinton.

The irony is that Carter is probably the last honorable man that will serve
as president (honorable relative to other presidents, that is, I know about
Jimmy's dirty laundry).  It's hard to find anyone that thinks he was a good
president (myself included), yet he is to this day a decent human being.
You'll never find George Bush swinging a hammer to build a house for a poor
person.


It is you and the pundits who are helping to form your opinions who are
making
the mistake. This is not a coup. It is the legitimate activity of the
American
constitutional system of government in reaction to a crisis. A bit late and a
bit light perhaps, but the system is working, and at least so far, we should
all be thankful for that.

No, it's the devolution into political gridlock via unlawful abuse of the
independent council statutes and other laws.  It's the dissolution of the
carefully placed balances of power in our Constitution.  It's the end of
democracy as we know it.  From now on, if Congress doesn't like what the
Executive or Judicial branches are doing, then they can just tie them up w/
an "independent council".  The distraction will easily drown out any
meaningful public discourse about things that really matter to you or me.


 And all of you who think that you hate/dislike/disapprove of Clinton are
not
going to  like what comes nextbut you will deserve it.

This I would agree with. None of us is going to like what comes next. And we
will all deserve it. Those of us who vehemently disapprove of the level of
corruption exemplified by your Mr. Clinton will deserve it because of our
apathy, lack of protest. Those like yourself who condone and support the
actions of men like Bill Clinton will deserve it because of your
unwillingness
to see truth through your own smokey aura of petty and selfish emotion. It is
a sad thing for all of us.

I do not for a minute think Clinton is an innocent choirboy.  But I'd
prefer that he be given the benefit of the protections afforded by our
Constitution and the laws of the land.  Otherwise, it might be me they're
coming for next time w/ their illegal wiretaps, their illegal press leaks,
their illegal detention without legal representation, and their overzealous
interpretation of the Constitution.

Che

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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[BStokes45]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 98-12-13 04:36:15 EST, you write:


 At 08:36 PM 12/12/98 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
 covering for the current president since before his first election. For
years
 prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..Are
 you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?

zeus8 wrote:
 That would explain the big stink raised by the so-called "liberal media"
 when Brill's Content printed their "Pressgate" story.  You'd think Steven
 Brill was an enemy of the Rupublic for daring to question the media's cozy
 relationship w/ Ken Starr.  Wake up kids, the mainstream media is about as
 liberal as Ronald Reagan.

Do you actually think the press is "right wing?"  You think the media is in
bed with Ken Starr?  Starr and Clinton are buddies, Starr is saving Clinton's
butt by not bringing up charges of treason for accepting bribes from the Red
Chinese in the form of campaign donations.  Clinton has given the Red Chinese
full access to nearly anything they want except nuclear weapons.  These are
the charges Clinton should have to be dealing with, not the "smoke and
mirrors" of sexual deviancy

zeus8 wrote:

 If you don't believe the polls, try crawling out of your troll cave
 sometime and asking your fellow citizens how they feel about the subject.
 Being social isn't that difficult, in fact I consider it to be and
 important part of citizenship.  I've had trouble finding anyone, even a
 registered Republican, that is for impeachment (A caveat - I'm from Oregon;
 Republicans are a little different here).

I've taken many a straw poll at work (work, from people that work, not manage,
but perform the work that makes the managers rich) and two out of thirty-seven
were not for impeachment.  Could be that people who work, don't like
Clinton... why would anyone respect a President who doesn't know the meaning
of the word "is."


zeus8 wrote:
 I had an interesting conversation w/ some coworkers at the company
 Christmas party tonite.  First there was a discussion about how Clinton's
 sexual peccadillos were nothing compared to Bush's involvement in the both
 the SL  Iran/Contra scandals.  Then we discussed Bush's ties w/ C I A
 drug running.  A coworker and his wife from Texas acted like the Bush/C I
 A/drug connection was common knowledge.  I can hardly characterize them as
 being a part of "the ignorant masses".

Talk about comparing apples and oranges!  Compare Clinton, not using the media
dominated crap about sex, but the real issues such as Chinagate, Whitewater,
UN parks, UN historical rivers, Africa bombings and the Sudan bombings,
Clinton and drug connections in Mena and deaths surrounding him, the list goes
on and on.  Compare Clinton and Bush this way and you'll find they are the
same... just no one had the balls to take on Bush.


 zeus8 wrote:

 The irony is that Carter is probably the last honorable man that will serve
 as president (honorable relative to other presidents, that is, I know about
 Jimmy's dirty laundry).  It's hard to find anyone that thinks he was a good
 president (myself included), yet he is to this day a decent human being.
 You'll never find George Bush swinging a hammer to build a house for a poor
 person.

Don't remember seeing Clinton swinging a hammer either.  In your reply to
Jyester you only seem to address the fact that Bush was not a good President
rather than stick to the subject at hand "Clinton."  I guess that is easier
than defending Clinton, since he has no defense.


 zeus8 wrote:

 No, it's the devolution into political gridlock via unlawful abuse of the
 independent council statutes and other laws.  It's the dissolution of the
 carefully placed balances of power in our Constitution.  It's the end of
 democracy as we know it.  From now on, if Congress doesn't like what the
 Executive or Judicial branches are doing, then they can just tie them up w/
 an "independent council".  The distraction will easily drown out any
 meaningful public discourse about things that really matter to you or me.

From the Constitution, Article II, Section 4:

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States,
shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason,
Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Impeachment of the President is one of the checks and balances of the
Constitution.


zeus8 wrote:

 I do not for a minute think Clinton is an innocent choirboy.  But I'd
 prefer that he be given the benefit of the protections afforded by our
 Constitution and the laws of the land.  Otherwise, it might be me they're
 coming for next time w/ their illegal wiretaps, their illegal press leaks,
 their illegal detention without legal representation, and their overzealous
 interpretation of the Constitution. 

If it were you or me who was being brought up on these charges we would be
imprisoned, 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Sno0wl wrote:
Just one more case of the media--which seems to be in the pocket of
the Republicans and the radical right and whoever the puppetmasters
are--calling the shots before the play is done.

What media are YOU watching?

All the mainstream shows I watch (CNN, The Today Show, et al), they all
unanimously kowtow to the Klintons...treating them like royalty, never
subjecting them to hard questions.  And this past week, the talking heads
on these shows have looked 'shell shocked', totally surprised that the
impeachment articles were passed...

Just a few minutes ago, on Fox News, one of the talking heads opined that
'the media' will present impeachment in the worst possible light, and
that the media 'will not allow impeachment of the president'...

Hardly sounds like they're in the pocket of the Republicans...


Nothing new. They haven't stopped all year and they're not about to
stop now. The only thing that makes this "surprising" is the
polls--which still say this is NOT what the American public wants.

First off, even if these polls are accurate, they matter not a whit.

The government is one of LAWS, and hopefully of our representatives going
with their conscious, and not one of public opinion polls.

Secondly, I am extremely skeptical of these polls...first off, most of
the public equates the word 'impeachment' with automatic removal from
office, so if you ask them just a blunt "Should the president be
impeached?", they assume the questioner is asking "Should the president
be immediately removed from office?", and answer no.

I think the resulting answers would be very different if the question was
worded "Should the charges against the president be assessed by the House
of Representatives, and if judged to have some basis, then passed on to
the Senate to conduct an investigation, and if such an investigation
uncovered serious wrong-doing, have the Senate remove the President
from office by a two-thirds affirmative vote in the Senate?"...

The debate on the Judiciary Committee yesterday touched on this...the
Republicans finally brought the fact that most people have an erroneous
idea of what 'impeachment' means by repeatedly stating 'the House
accuses, the Senate tries (and possibly convicts)'and the Democrats
reaction to that betrays their desire to keep the exact definition of
'impeachment' cloudy in the minds of the public, so they can 'justify'
their claim that the public doesn't want it...

Listening to the callers into CSPAN, those who support Clinton amply
displayed their ignorance of just what impeachment is...in fact, they
almost all betrayed the fact that they don't even know what the 4
articles of impeachment actually state...


And that is the most frightening element of this whole thing.  That
neither the Congressional majority nor the media cares a fig what the
electorate wants.

The majority of Germans supported Hitler, too...

The majority of Americans at one time supported the enslavement of the
Negro race...

The majority of Americans at one time supported the right of only white
males having the right to vote...

The majority of Americans at one time supported denying the right of a
woman to a safe and legal abortion...

Just because a majority supports an idea or a person, does NOT mean such
support is morally, or legally, correct...


Someone here made an excellent post some time back about the
humiliation of Democratic presidents in our time. They have not
merely been accused of "wrongdoing," but have been dragged before the
American public in shame.

Lord knows I'm no knee-jerk Republican supporter, but the only Democratic
presidents 'in our time' have been (going in reverse order):

1.  Clinton -- who came into office with a lot of 'baggage',
and an obvious defect of character where he admittedly
allows his hormones to control his actions...

Not to mention all the other really serious stuff...
all the mysterious deaths surrounding him, Whitewater,
Vince Foster, Chinagate, etc

Hardly a saint without blemish, one can NOT blame anyone
but Clinton himself for his own undoing...


2.  Carter -- shot himself in his own foot with the Panama
Canal, the neutron bomb debate, and the economy...

While the release of the Iran hostages was obviously
'gummed up' by the Reagan camp, one cannot forget the
fact that it was Carter's policies which LEAD to the
Embassy takeover in the first place...

   Again, someone who has to take a significant amount of
   blame for his own downfall...which, in fact, he does,
   based on an interview with him I heard a few months ago.

So, that about covers the two Democratic presidents whom could reasonably
fit the bill of those you feel have been the victim of some sort of
rightwing vendetta...

But that only takes us 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
covering for the current president since before his first election. For years
prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda.

I wouldn't say that...they consistently defended and 'covered for' Reagan
and Bush, too...

It's more a matter of not wanting to be 'locked out of the loop' by the
current administration, no matter WHO is in power nor the party they are
affiliated with...and so we no longer get JOURNALISM asking hard-hitting
questions, but REPORTING which utilizes blown-dried heads talking fluff
pieces (like Katie Couric at the White House this past week, on the very
day the President's council was to go before the House Judiciary
Committee, talking with Bill and Hill about the WH Christmas tree, how
'lovely' Hillary's dress was, a dress which apparantly got Hill a Vogue
cover shot...asking the Prez what the holiday season meant to him, how
was the First Family going to spend Christmas, etc. etc. -- hardly 'hard
hitting journalism', and hardly an example of what Marilyn claims is the
media's vendetta against the Clinton's)...


Yes, it is surprising that the polls say this - if they are legitimate.
Actually the most frightening element would be the possibility that these
polls might indeed be true, which would prove that our society has finally
devolved literally into "the ignorant masses."

It hasn't 'devolved' into ignorant masses...it always has been.  It's the
rare citizen who has actually read the Constitution and Bill of Rights,
let alone UNDERSTANDS them...and you will find more Americans find
politics 'boring' than not...hence, someone who doesn't read a newspaper
(most Americans don't), perhaps gets their news via radio during the
morning commute, and would rather watch a repeat of Seinfeld than CSPAN,
are NOT going to have a clear idea of what exactly the term 'impeachment
means'...a confusion which the Democrats are exploiting...

You will find that most of the polls are either conducted by the media --
which we have shown is strongly in the Clinton camp -- or by pollsters
hired by the Democrats themselves

Hardly objective...

Especially since we don't see the ACTUAL questions the pollsters ask when
they call a person...it's been reported that in some cases, a preliminary
question along the lines of 'Who did you vote for in the last election?'
or 'Are you a Democrat, Republican, or unaffiliated?', or a blatant 'Do
you support President Clinton?' is asked...and any answer which implies
the answerer is not already a firm supporter, or at least leaning in that
direction, garners a polite 'thank you for your time', and is hung up on,
without the question regarding impeachment being asked.

I haven't seen any poll where it was first determined that the person
being polled even understood what impeachment really is.

And I'd like to see the RAW DATA garnered by such polls, instead of the
'spin' put on those numbers...as anyone who's taken a basic statistics
course, it's easy to 'massage' data to imply whatever conclusion one
wishes...

As Mark Twain once opined:  "There are lies...there are damned lies...
and then there are statistics!"


I would not argue that
"neither the Congressional majority nor the media care a fig what the
electorate wants," but in fairness, and in the interest of accuracy, I would
have to add that neither does the congressional minority.

I would hope that both the Congressional majority, AND the Congressional
minority, would operate from their own conscious, and NOT based on public
opinion polls.


June

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spread 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Che wrote:
If you don't believe the polls, try crawling out of your troll cave
sometime and asking your fellow citizens how they feel about the subject.

First off, Che, I don't seem to remember seeing you post to this list
before, so I assume you are a new list member.

Try reading the statement which gets automatically appended to every post
to the list, especially regarding respect to others.

We endeavor to remain polite, even when disagreeing with someone...there
is no room for such 'flamebait' as your 'crawling out of your troll cave'
statement above...if you have something of worth to say, say it -- it
should be able to stand on its own merits and not need 'flamebait'...

Anyways, in answer to your question, yes I HAVE asked/discussed this
directly with people I know -- and have found the majority don't even
know what impeachment really is...and that when it is explained to them,
they then usually support impeachment.  Which is why I expect the polls
are reflecting an ignorance of what impeachment really is, rather than
what the public really wants...


I had an interesting conversation w/ some coworkers at the company
Christmas party tonite.  First there was a discussion about how Clinton's
sexual peccadillos were nothing compared to Bush's involvement in the both
the SL  Iran/Contra scandals.  Then we discussed Bush's ties w/ C I A
drug running.  A coworker and his wife from Texas acted like the Bush/C I
A/drug connection was common knowledge.  I can hardly characterize them as
being a part of "the ignorant masses".

If you are all so knowledgable regarding Bush/Iran-Contra/CIA/drug
running, then "Mena, Arkansas" should be meaningful to you...

And just WHO was governor of Arkansas at the time?


The irony is that Carter is probably the last honorable man that will serve
as president (honorable relative to other presidents, that is, I know about
Jimmy's dirty laundry).  It's hard to find anyone that thinks he was a good
president (myself included), yet he is to this day a decent human being.

Yes...how many other ex-Presidents do you find climbing up on a ladder in
the hot summer sun to swing a hammer, helping to build houses for Habitat
for Humanity...I daresay you won't see Clinton doing so, either...


I do not for a minute think Clinton is an innocent choirboy.  But I'd
prefer that he be given the benefit of the protections afforded by our
Constitution and the laws of the land.

Uhhh...then I suggest you read Article I, Sections 2  3, and Article II,
Section 4, of the U.S. Constitution, and then come back here and discuss
what IS and is not, constitutional...


June

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 '^^^M^^^`

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 email.
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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Do you actually think the press is "right wing?"  You think the media is in
bed with Ken Starr?

I've never heard one mainstream media pundit say anything supportive of
Starr...if anything, they consistently present him as 'strange',
'dogmatic', 'driven', 'fanatical'...


Starr and Clinton are buddies, Starr is saving Clinton's
butt by not bringing up charges of treason for accepting bribes from the Red
Chinese in the form of campaign donations.

And other matters...

But I suspect the vehemence against Starr is due more to the fact that
Clinton and his camp expected Starr to be a knee-jerk butt-kisser, and
have been surprised that he's shown a measure of independence from
them...of course, this doesn't mean that Starr may not be kissing someone
ELSE's butt, and is serving THEIR agenda...

But the end result is that the Clintonistas have been surprised that
everything wasn't swept under the rug...but I suspect that Starr focused
on the 'easy' subject of Clinton's sexual escapades, a subject easily
understood by the American public, sure to garner 'OJ Clinton' type
coverage by the media, and hard for Congress to ignore...

I suspect Starr's strategy was to hand Congress an 'easy' matter to
investigate, basically washing his hands of the harder and dirtier stuff,
leaving that for Congress to deal with, if they so choose...an 'iffy'
proposition, since a lot of that dirt is squarely on many members of
Congress, too...

So the Lewinsky scandal gives them an 'out' to investigate, and possibly
remove the president from office, charges which are solely on Clinton,
and wouldn't lead into areas that could be very embarassing, to say the
least, for some of those in Congress...

June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
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  o/@,%\o
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 '^^^M^^^`

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*---*
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*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Teo1000]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 6:41:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


snip a lot of good stuff


 If it were you or me who was being brought up on these charges we would be
 imprisoned, fined, possibly tortured... we would be decimated, but not
 Clinton.  Can you actually provide evidence that Clinton had illegal
wiretaps?
 Was Clinton illegally detained without legal representation?   I don't think
 so.  The Constitution has not been interpreted conservatively for a century
or
 longer.  Clinton ignores the Constitution, and acts as a dictator most of the
 time.

 Regards,
 Bob Stokes 


Bob your comments exactly reflect mine.  There is a cronyism that is in
effect, one that guarantees that Clinton will not be tried for the REAL crimes
he has committed because there are other people involved that would also lose
out.  Sure people may not like the whole thing (though I am aware of MANY
people who are fed up with him and his continuous lieing and want him gone
even if it is "all about sex" as some claim) but most of the people are
completely oblivious to the real crimes; the chinese encryption transfer, the
computer transfer, the satellite deals, the COSCO deal, etc. . .  It is my
belief that if any of this got out widely then the vote for impeachment would
be a done deal.  It won'tr of course 'cause Ken Starr and his other buddies
are just as dirty and this needs to be kept under the covers.
Teo1000

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 7:50:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Carter's policies which LEAD to the
Embassy takeover in the first place...

I believe the record shows that Carter and US government resisited the shahs
entry into the US. Intel said if shah entered US, there would be uncotrollable
disturbances. David Rockefeller went and got the shah and personally escorted
him into the us, the students 'rioted' and the rest 'they' call history . . .

Orchestration all the way.

Generally in newsrooms you have a perponderence of democrats, -- just as in
the general population . . .duh! The ownership is almost 100% percent
republican and there is no true debate in the media. There is no true
discussion, it is a controlled parameterial debate. Left-wing is only visible
at boston market.

Om
K

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/12/98 8:36:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
  covering for the current president since before his first election. For
 years
  prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..Are
  you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?


Did you slip across from some strange parallel universe?  The news media
attacks on Clinton concerning the bogus Whitewater brouhaha began during the
1992 campaign and the attacks have been ongoing about one matter or another
ever since.  They truly reached the level of frenzy regarding ML.

The corporate controlled news media have been the abject servants of the
radical right's slow motion coup d'etat which may not see full fruition but it
has and will hobble the nation.  While sniveling draft dodgers like Trent and
Newt were flapping their arms about patriotism while crippling the executive
branch without a single word of alarm from the news media, Clinton has been
acting in the nation's interest.  It is easy to tell who has the family and
patriotism when you shed your myopic view.

Jerry harp

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 5:46:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  In a message dated 12/12/98 8:36:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, JYester@AOL.
 COM
  writes:

  
Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
covering for the current president since before his first election. For
   years
prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..
 Are
you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?
  

  Did you slip across from some strange parallel universe?  The news media
  attacks on Clinton concerning the bogus Whitewater brouhaha began during
the
  1992 campaign and the attacks have been ongoing about one matter or another
  ever since.  They truly reached the level of frenzy regarding ML.

  The corporate controlled news media have been the abject servants of the
  radical right's slow motion coup d'etat which may not see full fruition but
 it
  has and will hobble the nation.  While sniveling draft dodgers like Trent
 and
  Newt were flapping their arms about patriotism while crippling the
executive
  branch without a single word of alarm from the news media, Clinton has been
  acting in the nation's interest.  It is easy to tell who has the family and
  patriotism when you shed your myopic view.

  Jerry harp

Don't know if my universe is parallel to yours, but I'm certain that it's a
separate one.

Regards,

Jim

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 12:42:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Generally in newsrooms you have a perponderence of democrats, -- just as in
  the general population . . .duh! The ownership is almost 100% percent
  republican and there is no true debate in the media. There is no true
  discussion, it is a controlled parameterial debate. Left-wing is only
 visible
  at boston market.

  Om
  K

Of course you are correct. However, at that level (media ownership) it is no
more significant what a man's party membership is than it is what color suit
he is wearing on a given day. At the newsroom level the pendulum is
occassionally swung slightly from left to right - thesis to antithesis -
depending upon what is being accomplished at the time. Of course the final
synthesis, which we are rapidly approaching, is totalitarianism, which is
usually labeled right-wing, but is usually arrived at from the left.

Valid commentary was made in this thread from BOTH sides of the Clinton
impeachment argument, indicating the accuracy of your characterization of a
parameterial debate. We (average Americans) are screened from the real debate.
In fact, there is no debate. As to the larger picture, the die is cast.

Incidentally, to further illustrate the ambiguity of our petty arguments, and
to be chronologically accurate, the last honorable man to serve as president
was Ronald Reagan. The rub was that his administration was peopled with white
collar criminals, including George H. W. Bush.

Jim

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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

Thanks, but I would wonder about ole Ronnie. Have you read Moldea's Dark
Victory and/or Freed's Secret Life of Ronald Reagan?  What would a 'B'  do to
play 'AAA'?

Just some thoughts,
Om
K


In a message dated 12/13/98 5:12:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Incidentally, to further illustrate the ambiguity of our petty arguments, and
to be chronologically accurate, the last honorable man to serve as president
was Ronald Reagan. The rub was that his administration was peopled with white
collar criminals, including George H. W. Bush.

Jim


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

Reagan!?!  I mentioned before about how Reagan derailed half of Garrison's
investigation, but good lord, do the words "iran-contra" mean anything to anyone
any more? What about "October Surprise"? The rip-off of PROMIS and the death of
Danny Casolaro? Even things like Clinton's entanglement in the Mena drugs-and-guns
operation trace back to Reagan/Bush/Ollie North. Sorry, Reagan ain't no honorable
man, no way.

Btw, Dan Moldea has another, more recent book about RFK I think, but I'm a t a
loss for the title. Anyone have that?

kt

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 9:32:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Reagan!?!  I mentioned before about how Reagan derailed half of Garrison's
  investigation, but good lord, do the words "iran-contra" mean anything to
 anyone
  any more? What about "October Surprise"? The rip-off of PROMIS and the
death
 of
  Danny Casolaro? Even things like Clinton's entanglement in the Mena drugs-
 and-guns
  operation trace back to Reagan/Bush/Ollie North. Sorry, Reagan ain't no
 honorable
  man, no way.

  Btw, Dan Moldea has another, more recent book about RFK I think, but I'm a
t
 a
  loss for the title. Anyone have that?

  kt


I believe that I mentioned that the Reagan Administration was peopled with
white collar criminals Wall Street, CIA... they swooped in from
everywhere.  I wouldn't take issue with any of the items you mentioned.
However, you have no proof that Reagan himself had personal knowledge, any
more than I have proof that he did not.

Jim

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==
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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

  you have no proof that Reagan himself had personal knowledge, any
 more than I have proof that he did not.

Ignoring that Reagan stated openly that "mistakes were made" in iran-contra, are
you saying he had no personal knowledge of the appointees to his own
administration?

kt

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Teo1000]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 9:32:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Reagan!?!  I mentioned before about how Reagan derailed half of Garrison's
 investigation, but good lord, do the words "iran-contra" mean anything to
anyone
 any more? What about "October Surprise"? The rip-off of PROMIS and the death
of
 Danny Casolaro? Even things like Clinton's entanglement in the Mena drugs-
and-guns
 operation trace back to Reagan/Bush/Ollie North. Sorry, Reagan ain't no
honorable
 man, no way.

 Btw, Dan Moldea has another, more recent book about RFK I think, but I'm a t
a
 loss for the title. Anyone have that?

 kt 

Reagan was not honorable but the real culprit for all of the activity during
his admin. was George Bush, the Devil incarnate.  Reagan must take the
responsibility for what was happening on his watch though, and he allowed and
wanted much of it to come to pass anyway.
Moldea's book on RFK, I can't remember the name of it either, is according to
some reviews I read about it, another Sirhan did it himself book.  He does
track down the security guard and comes to the conclusion that he didn't do
it, because he says that he didn't!  Brilliant!  Why hasn't that worked for
all the other people in prison?  I haven't read the book though so these
comments may not be valid, check it out.
Teo1000

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[A.C. Szul]

 -Caveat Lector-

RR knew who he appointed. To think otherwise would be eqaully silly and foolish.

Switching the topic to whether RR knew his appointees is senseless. At issue is that
RR owed up to what happened and BC refuses to do so.

Kenn Thomas wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

   you have no proof that Reagan himself had personal knowledge, any
  more than I have proof that he did not.

 Ignoring that Reagan stated openly that "mistakes were made" in iran-contra, are
 you saying he had no personal knowledge of the appointees to his own
 administration?

 kt

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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 Om

--
-snip


Regards,
-A
http://www.erols.com/mack97
"The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

Today, Bill Clinton  gave  his  final  good-bye  to America in an
abrupt Rose Garden speech where he reiterated his  apologies  for
misdeeds, both the implied specific and the unmentioned general.

It reminds me of when one is suing someone...at the point that the party
you are suing comes back and makes an offer to settle (at terms more
favorable to the defendant than what would be imposed by the court),
they've basically admitted guilt and the unliklihood that they will
prevail in court -- else they wouldn't be making the offer in the first
place...

Considering most congresscritters are lawyers (or ex-lawyers), they are
very aware of this principle...so I suspect this latest POTUS ploy
asking for censure will in fact backfire...


In the normal context, his speech made no sense, coming as it did
synchronous  to  the  House  committee  having approved the first
article of impeachment.  What  an  odd  time to apologize (in the
normal context)!

They're aware that they've lost the fight to stop the articles from being
approved and passed onto the House of Representatives, so now they're
switching their focus to those moderates of both parties in the House who
are waivering on whether to vote for impeachment or not...Clinton and his
advisors are hoping that by offering to 'accept censure' (like he'd have
a choice, anyways), that they can sway those fence-sitters to vote
against impeachment...

With censure, Bubba gets a slap on the wrist, and then continues on with
business as usual...including the ability to collect his presidential
pension and hold high government positions after the year 2001...

Irregardless that censure is unConstitutional...


But suppose Bill Clinton is about to disappear, in one manner  or
another.   This  news service cannot say whether a FAKED DEATH of
Bill Clinton is  on  the  horizon.

I doubt it.  Bubba wants too much to join the Hollywood and international
jet-set crowd after his term to accept such a situation, which would
necessarily require that he become an international persona non grata...

The only way this scenario would make sense is if 'someone' has big plans
for Hillary to make a run for the office of president sometime in the
future...as the spouse of an impeached president, even a 'wronged'
spouse, and especially if Bubba is removed from office by the Senate, her
chances for a future bid for the presidency are nil...

But as the 'widow' of a president 'assassinated' while in office, she'd
find that the American public's memory of Bubba's antics is short, and
she'd be in the position of an 'honored' widow

But quite frankly, if such a scenario DOES have any element of truth, for
the life of me I can't see why they'd FAKE the death...with all that
they'd have to keep secret, hidden, and covered up, why add the extra
burden of keeping Bubba undercover for the next 30 or more years...?

It would be easier just to 'off' him in fact.  They got away with it 35
years ago, no reason they wouldn't think they could get away with it
now...

(Just to make sure I'm being perfectly clear on this, there is NOTHING in
my speculation that should be construed that I ENDORSE a possible
assassination...I am just responding to the speculation presented in the
original post, and presenting my reasons for why, if an assassination
scenario IS in the works, an actual assassination would make more sense
to those who are planning it, rather than a 'faked' one...)


Bob  Schiffer, on the CBS Network News broadcast of 12/11/98, was
all choked up -- really all  choked  up and not faking it -- when
he reported on Bill Clinton's abrupt FINAL GOOD-BYE speech  today
in the Rose Garden.

Did anyone catch Katie Couric at the WH earlier this week, for the tree
lighting...she was like a puppy, licking the shoes of the Clintons...
Bubba was properly subdued and contrite...


A key CNNS source, DOUBLE CODE-NAMED "Slim Bacall," had privately
speculated that a FAKED DEATH of Bill Clinton was on the horizon,
probably in Israel.

There seems to be an inordinate amount of congresscritters -- including
Schumer -- also going along on this trip...

Last major event in this process seemed to coincide with Rosh Hashona and
Yom Kippur...now Bubba goes to Israel right when Hannukkah starts,
corresponding to when the House commences impeachment proceedings...
don't know what this might mean (if anything), it just seems more than a
tad coincidental...perhaps a ploy to try to gain Jewish support?

Will we get a picture of Bubba praying at the Wailing Wall, with
explanation that that 'proves' he's repented and that God Himself has now
forgiven him (why can't Congress?)

Don't be surprised to hear him make some sort of reference to Hannukkah,
comparing Congress to the ancient Assyrians who forbade the Jews from
lighting the temple lights...


  As i said, things are going on in the Jud  Comte  with  the
  Dems  learning  things  that  they  are having BAD problems
  with.  They have  promised  to  

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Sno0wl]

 -Caveat Lector-

Just one more case of the media--which seems to be in the pocket of
the Republicans and the radical right and whoever the puppetmasters
are--calling the shots before the play is done.

Nothing new. They haven't stopped all year and they're not about to
stop now. The only thing that makes this "surprising" is the
polls--which still say this is NOT what the American public wants.
And that is the most frightening element of this whole thing. That
neither the Congressional majority nor the media cares a fig what the
electorate wants.

Someone here made an excellent post some time back about the
humiliation of Democratic presidents in our time. They have not
merely been accused of "wrongdoing," but have been dragged before the
American public in shame.

I wouldn't be surprised if Clinton met with some unfortunate accident
on his current tripIt will be interesting to see if he gets back
in one piece.

Make no mistake. This is a bloodless coup. And all of you who think
that you hate/dislike/disapprove of Clinton are not going to like
what comes nextbut you will deserve it.





sno0wl

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/12/98 2:54:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Just one more case of the media--which seems to be in the pocket of
  the Republicans and the radical right and whoever the puppetmasters
  are--calling the shots before the play is done.

Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
covering for the current president since before his first election. For years
prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..Are
you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?

  Nothing new. They haven't stopped all year and they're not about to
  stop now. The only thing that makes this "surprising" is the
  polls--which still say this is NOT what the American public wants.
  And that is the most frightening element of this whole thing. That
  neither the Congressional majority nor the media cares a fig what the
  electorate wants.

Yes, it is surprising that the polls say this - if they are legitimate.
Actually the most frightening element would be the possibility that these
polls might indeed be true, which would prove that our society has finally
devolved literally into "the ignorant masses."  I would not argue that
"neither the Congressional majority nor the media care a fig what the
electorate wants," but in fairness, and in the interest of accuracy, I would
have to add that neither does the congressional minority.

  Someone here made an excellent post some time back about the
  humiliation of Democratic presidents in our time. They have not
  merely been accused of "wrongdoing," but have been dragged before the
  American public in shame.

Which presidents do you have in mind? All of Roosevelt's "accomplishments"
went against American tradition as well as the intent and spirit of our
constitution, yet he is revered by the media as well as in history texts. I
don't recall Truman getting an unfair review.  John Kennedy was a pretty
ineffectual president; everything he did turned to fecal matter. Yet after he
was assassinated he became a national hero. Even today, when his sexual
escapades are brought up, it is in a tone giving him an air of macho-ism.  As
to L. B. Johnson, like FDR, his is an example of unlimited power abused for
the purposes of personal political enrichment. In an era when the popularity
of the concept of socialism was at one of its peaks, Johnson took every
advantage. Today we are reaping the consequences of his "Great Society."  Yet
when his character flaws are discussed by today's media, they are passed off
as amusing eccentricies. He too seems revered by the media for his efforts to
further the socialist cause. If you mean Jimmy Carter, yes he's been laughed
at quite a bit, but not by the media. His problem was simply incompetence; he
simply wasn't up to the job. But that is not a part of his historical legacy.
His legacy is merely that he was a very nice man. And this brings us to Mr.
Clinton.

  I wouldn't be surprised if Clinton met with some unfortunate accident
  on his current tripIt will be interesting to see if he gets back
  in one piece.

Time will tell. Let us hope that no harm comes to him. It would be the wrong
way to have our problem solved.

  Make no mistake. This is a bloodless coup.

It is you and the pundits who are helping to form your opinions who are making
the mistake. This is not a coup. It is the legitimate activity of the American
constitutional system of government in reaction to a crisis. A bit late and a
bit light perhaps, but the system is working, and at least so far, we should
all be thankful for that.

 And all of you who think that you hate/dislike/disapprove of Clinton are not
going to  like what comes nextbut you will deserve it.

This I would agree with. None of us is going to like what comes next. And we
will all deserve it. Those of us who vehemently disapprove of the level of
corruption exemplified by your Mr. Clinton will deserve it because of our
apathy, lack of protest. Those like yourself who condone and support the
actions of men like Bill Clinton will deserve it because of your unwillingness
to see truth through your own smokey aura of petty and selfish emotion. It is
a sad thing for all of us.

Jim

  sno0wl


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==
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.