Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
Sorry I'm a little late to the discussion. Regarding FAQ's: If someone is a producer of some kind of technology (software, hardware, gardening tools, whatever), they really should be reading the FAQ's for their own product; if dozens of people are asking over and over again how to do something that should in theory be simple, that might just be a hint that something in the design of their product needs to change. Instead of asking "How do we get people to stop asking the same question about how to add ringtones to their RAZR?" Perhaps we should go one step further and ask: "Why are so many people asking the same question about how to add ringtones to their RAZR?" Perhaps mailing lists might just qualify as a quasi-ethnographic study tool. On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Calvin Park 박상빈 wrote: >> I question the initial premise of this post; is Trolling a problem >> on this >> list, (specifically individuals Trolling, with no malice - #3)? > > For some cases, it can be a problem. For example, I enjoy going to > howardforums.com which is a cellphone hacking community. That forum > suffers greatly from new members asking HOW DO I ADD FREE RINGTONES TO > MY NEW RAZR THX every.single.day. I'm not even joking about the caps > and the tone of the voice either. Questions like this has been > answered at least 20 times, and at this point, the question serves no > value but degrading the signal to noise ratio. It makes the site > harder to use because of the useless information like that, and it > eventually renders the site useless. > > I understand where the members of this mailing list is coming from > when you say "respect the new users", but in some cases, new users > must be forced to search unless you want your site to end up in a pile > of junk. > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Ilan Volow "Implicit code is inherently evil, and here's the reason why:" Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
I think the issue is more social than technical. The root problem is uncivil and/or inappropriate interactions in an open, informal conversation-like exchange. The problem is that you can't tell for sure always what a person's intentions or motivations are. It may be carelessness or emotion or a direct intention to disrupt or hijack and take control of the audience. I personally don't like name-calling or labeling people as "trolls" or "newbies." I don't like the in-group/out-group feeling that conveys. In fact, I think that only motivates people even more to be uncivil. As for "3. n00bs who won't search for answers first", that's just people asking typically-asked questions over and over again. I think this will gradually improve somehow as users get more experience with the internet. But for now you can't fault people for going to a forum for camera buffs and enthusiastically asking, "Which is better Canon or Nikon?" over and over again. The temptation is very strong to join the community and interact with others even if the answer is in the FAQs. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=27634 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
> - On the post page, put a "Do you want to search and see if someone's > already answered your question?" -- but off to the side > - Let people write their question out and click Continue > - Show the post preview AND automatically return the search results for > answers that may answer their questions > If user clicks on one of the "old answers", it should probably open > in-page using AJAX or in a separate window > - If user goes ahead and posts anyways, fine. I think this is a great solution. The pattern itself has been used in the world of bug-tracking tools and customer support requests, where the submission (the posting, in this context) is used first as a query to see if any results cross a certain threshold in relevance. Above the threshold and the application asks the user if one of these other items is a duplicate or meets their needs. Otherwise, proceed. And its a great illustration of making the technology go to work instead of making the humans do more work. For the list, extending it to email would be novel, functioning as a sort of call-and-response in non-web channels. - Michel. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
> How about giving the noobies their own area. ... > They can visit all forum areas, but can only post in their own Noobie folder > for the first 2 > weeks. Afterwards they can graduate to join the rest of the forum . I've dealt with this mechanism, and it is by far my least favorite because puts all 1, 2, and 3 into the same bin. This will drive away #1, which is a bad thing. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
In discussion of loving/hating n00bs, I realized that what I really was fighting wasn't n00bs, but rather immaturity. Both are obviously mutually exclusive. >From my previous post... During this discussion, I realized that what I'm fighting is "immaturity". Since a dominant character of immaturity is impatience, I'm using the patience of a poster to determine the level of maturity. I realize my mistake of choosing the incorrect terminology, thereby misleading many in this discussion. Nasir, I agree with you in respecting mature new users. However, my stance is still strong on hating immature new(and old) users =). Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
Oh, er, um...my previous responses were going on the idea of general means to moderate forums, not being overly concerned with moderation of this list. We all seem adults here and usually act like it... So...never mind! Scott On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Dave Meeker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One random thought: > > This is a MAILING LIST not a FORUM. -- 'Life' plus 'significance' = magic. ~ Grant Morrison Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
How many experts do you think would actually frequent the n00b forums to answer their questions though? Maybe a couple of kind-hearted altruists, but really, it'd end up like posting your question on the event horizon of a black hole. Maybe it'll get picked up and answered, but more likely it'll be sucked into the abyss. B On 3/27/08 1:49 PM, "Nabil Durand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: How about giving the noobies their own area. This would help both #2 and #3 noobies, but would also filter out #3noobie quick and dirty posts. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
>> This is a MAILING LIST not a FORUM. Well, the two really are one in the same, the way we've positioned it. This is a Community of Practice, which happens to have a mailing list as one of its touch points. We're working more and more to blend the web version and the mailing list together, so people of all digital lifestyles can jack into all of these lovely threads ... I do think all this talk of treating people as "newbies" is a bit elitist. Let's face it: in the larger context of the design community, we're all newbies. I agree with the sentiments of guiding new members to older answers, but not with banning them or spanking them into submission. I mean, we just did away with our list's nanny ... Besides, as someone said in this thread before, sometimes it makes sense to re-awaken old topics. But not anything that asks us to define UCD. Yeesh. Heck, I might just ban anyone that posts a message like that myself. OMG, please, whoever threw that tomato in my direction, I was only kidding. Ask us about UCD all you want ... we'll just hold back and politely point you to the plethora of threads from the past ... right? RIGHT?? :-) - Nasir Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
I think it's good that we're having this conversation, because it implies that there enough people doing this long enough the same number of ways that there are both newbies and a more or less established way to do things. That's a lot of progress! However, any growing community has this issue - what to do with all those bandwidth sucking people who keep asking the same damn question? I second the moderation - it helps keep the conversational tension even between everyone. It's also welcoming for the new or insecure who need a little reassurance. I'd also request that you think about this in a different light - maybe it's the same question, but are you answering it the same way you did a year ago? 5 years ago? Why did you change? What's remained constant and fundamental? Context, delivery, user knowledge and experience are all very different from when I started thinking about interaction problems (too long ago to get into), and require different tools and solutions. Just my two cents - Lorelei Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
I'm hearing from this thread: -Don't want Noobies to clutter the forum with redundant information -Noobies more than likely don't know what to search for, thats why they ask it -If they don't know what to search for, they might ask their question in any possible folder/thread on the forum I guess there's 3 types of new users #1. experts ready to join the community #2. noobies without a clue but wanting to learn #3. noobies that just want their answer and most likely will never participate further How about giving the noobies their own area. This would help both #2 and #3 noobies, but would also filter out #3noobie quick and dirty posts. They can visit all forum areas, but can only post in their own Noobie folder for the first 2 weeks. Afterwards they can graduate to join the rest of the forum . Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
One random thought: This is a MAILING LIST not a FORUM. It is unfair to flame new users for posting a question or opinion on a previoulsy discussed topic, as they are a new subscriber and they don't know what has or has not been discussed in the past. I realize that means that the "list" can become chock full of repeat subjects and conversations, but who are "we" to tell someone that they should go back in time to join the list in order to have their question be valid? You know? It probably makes sens for iXda to start up online forums to solve this problem. But the social aspects and usage patterns of a listserv are quite different than a mailing list. (then again, based on the audience of this list, that goes without saying). In addition, the suggestion that you should deflect a post that a user makes that is in ALL CAPS is just wrong imho. One of the basic rules of good experience design is to not blame your user or make them follow a non-natural process. No? dave Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting Trolls
I like Cindy's solution. I would also like to share how this was handled on a board I frequented. New people are encouraged to make themselves known to others (via a post). A moderator would send them a welcome with links to some old postings that had great information they may be here seeking. She knew what that information was because basically it was a FAQ. She also took the time to introduce some of the regulars that they may be reading if they choose to stick around. Of course, this is less of a technological solution and it would require some work on someone's part to keep that welcome post up to date. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=27634 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
> > Cindy, > In your case, we would use pattern recognition, and > in my case, we would simply assume that all posts are potential source > of "noise". That is exactly the important difference - "assuming that all posts are potentially noise". How disrespectful to the user! The thing is, no one thinks their post is noise, and most of them are correct. You should only be interfering when you have some real "evidence" that their post is noise. It's a subtle difference but the "feel" of any community is mostly governed by subtle interactions. So far, my model is to > 1. upon posting, ask for the title first > 2. search the title and present the results > 3. if the poster isn't interested in the results, let him/her post > 4. if the post body is recognized as "noise"(too many caps, etc), > reject the post > I think this is great (you could move #1 to between #3 and #4 potentially as well) > 5. the post isn't publicized until the poster comes back in a few > hours and reconfirms it I think you'll lose 90% of posts this way. When you ask the user to come back, a lot won't bother - just human nature. > > 6. other users can flag the posts as "redundant" or "rude" so that > moderators can act upon it "rude", yes. "redundant", I think that's rude if it's public. But it would be really useful to flag as redundant IF you used that as a guideline to what FAQs to create next! > > 7. create a wiki and FAQ Definitely good. Cindy Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
Jeff, That is an excellent suggestion! Maybe I can take your approach and adjust the timeout period according to the "usefulness" of the member(however we measure it). And you're right that it'll work but people will hate me. Would you have some other suggestions that will help? During this discussion, I realized that what I'm fighting is "immaturity". Since a dominant character of immaturity is impatience, I'm using the patience of a poster to determine the level of maturity. On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:51:47, Jeff Howard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Calvin, > > An explicit "timeout" period for the new post isn't going to go > over well at all. It'll work but people will hate you. I wouldn't > recommend your approach, but if you're set on it I'd construct some > plausible deniability into the process. > > For instance, you might do the post confirmation via e-mail, and note > that the e-mail may take up to 24 hours to arrive. That makes the > actual 2 hour delay seem less harsh. Give them the option to cancel > and search instead. During the interim, they might find the answer > they're looking for and decide not to confirm the post when it > arrives. > > // jeff Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
Hi Calvin, An explicit "timeout" period for the new post isn't going to go over well at all. It'll work but people will hate you. I wouldn't recommend your approach, but if you're set on it I'd construct some plausible deniability into the process. For instance, you might do the post confirmation via e-mail, and note that the e-mail may take up to 24 hours to arrive. That makes the actual 2 hour delay seem less harsh. Give them the option to cancel and search instead. During the interim, they might find the answer they're looking for and decide not to confirm the post when it arrives. // jeff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=27634 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
Billy, I like the idea of FAQ and Wikis. Cindy, Wouldn't forcing the posts with all caps to be rewritten be equivalent to forcing the new posts to be delayed? In both cases, we are detecting behaviours that are recognized as "noise" and disallowing such behaviours. In your case, we would use pattern recognition, and in my case, we would simply assume that all posts are potential source of "noise". I understand your argument and respect your input, but to me it seems like your idea is fundamentally equivalent to mine; only difference is what we consider "noise". So far, my model is to 1. upon posting, ask for the title first 2. search the title and present the results 3. if the poster isn't interested in the results, let him/her post 4. if the post body is recognized as "noise"(too many caps, etc), reject the post 5. the post isn't publicized until the poster comes back in a few hours and reconfirms it 6. other users can flag the posts as "redundant" or "rude" so that moderators can act upon it 7. create a wiki and FAQ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
I peruse the Kurzweil (musical instrument) forums every now and then. They have some read-only forums consisting of answers to commonly asked questions. (Now if I would just read them, I could get more out of my Kurzweil instrument.) I suspect that such threads/forums can provide the information that some users seek in a format that is even easier than posting to the forum. > > I question the initial premise of this post; is Trolling a problem > > on > this > > list, (specifically individuals Trolling, with no malice - #3)? > > For some cases, it can be a problem. For example, I enjoy going to > howardforums.com which is a cellphone hacking community. That forum > suffers greatly from new members asking HOW DO I ADD FREE RINGTONES TO > MY NEW RAZR THX every.single.day. I'm not even joking about the caps > and the tone of the voice either. Again, this can be done through integration with the posting process. If more than 50% of the post content is in all caps, stop and make them rewrite (and at the same time, show the user matching similar posts to divert them). There are undoubtedly other patterns that are associated with "noise" - but the burden should be on the technology, not the user. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Calvin Park 박상빈 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I question the initial premise of this post; is Trolling a problem on > this > > list, (specifically individuals Trolling, with no malice - #3)? > > For some cases, it can be a problem. For example, I enjoy going to > howardforums.com which is a cellphone hacking community. That forum > suffers greatly from new members asking HOW DO I ADD FREE RINGTONES TO > MY NEW RAZR THX every.single.day. I'm not even joking about the caps > and the tone of the voice either. Again, this can be done through integration with the posting process. If more than 50% of the post content is in all caps, stop and make them rewrite (and at the same time, show the user matching similar posts to divert them). There are undoubtedly other patterns that are associated with "noise" - but the burden should be on the technology, not the user. Cindy Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
> I question the initial premise of this post; is Trolling a problem on this > list, (specifically individuals Trolling, with no malice - #3)? For some cases, it can be a problem. For example, I enjoy going to howardforums.com which is a cellphone hacking community. That forum suffers greatly from new members asking HOW DO I ADD FREE RINGTONES TO MY NEW RAZR THX every.single.day. I'm not even joking about the caps and the tone of the voice either. Questions like this has been answered at least 20 times, and at this point, the question serves no value but degrading the signal to noise ratio. It makes the site harder to use because of the useless information like that, and it eventually renders the site useless. I understand where the members of this mailing list is coming from when you say "respect the new users", but in some cases, new users must be forced to search unless you want your site to end up in a pile of junk. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
I question the initial premise of this post; is Trolling a problem on this list, (specifically individuals Trolling, with no malice - #3)? I just ignore posts I'm not interested in and it works very well. As for forcing searches of previous posts to minimize repeat discussions, I'm not sure this "cure" is worth the discussions it may stop. Sure many things are repeated with no value added, but when value is added it seems to often more then make up for the inconvenient "noise". For example I'd still be interested in discussions on "Agile and ID", even though it's been discussed 100 x. I'd even be interested in it being revisited with no further new info, besides to confirm old feedback is still relevant. I'd err on keeping an "open" forum, VS an "expert focused" forum. IMHO some of the best discussions are where "experts" initiate interesting discussions, and "newbees" add the value, I really wouldn't want to hamper this. -- Joseph Rich Rogan President UX/UI Inc. http://www.jrrogan.com Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 6:33 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > For #3... How do we force new users to search for answers before > creating a duplicate thread on issues that has been addressed already? An interesting method implemented by Metafilter (mentioned previous in regards to their banhammering) is to force a post preview prior to submission. In this process (assuming I haven't used the site's standard "search" options), I type up my post but can only preview it (versus immediately posting it live). This preview does some sort of check for similar or previous posts (in Metafilter's case, this check is done by looking at the URL in the post...but I imagine this check could be altered to other types of site-relevant content)...if a duplicate prior post is found, it is displayed with a message along the lines of "It looks like someone has already posted about topic X..." and some notes about not duplicating posts or checking to see if your post is taking a new/unique look at a similar topic. Granted, at this step, you could ignore the duplicate warning and post anyways...but I always thought this was a fairly helpful way to help avoid duplication of ideas. But I also tend to agree that there should be no "penalty" levied against new user who inquire about previously-discussed topics...maybe there could be some sort of "rewards" system set up for answering questions (like an ebay feedback concept) with no regard to the amount of time things have been discussed? - Tim -- http://www.clampants.com http://clampants.tumblr.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/clampants/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
I guess this problem of duplicates apply to new users as well as old ones too. On Slashdot, they are a limited number of users and I've seen duplicates quite often. They must have an efficient way to know existing threads for the new subject they want to post. My idea would be to force the search of other threads on a new thread entry : 1) When a user wants to create a new thread, ask him the subject or title first. 2) Perform a search of the keywords in other threads. 3) Present the list of other thread titles, with perhaps a short description and ask the user if he wants to proceed with a new thread. I've not seen this in other people's responds, however I've scanned more less quickly, I must say. I don't know if this could be useful, but any idea is worth sharing ;) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=27634 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
This very issue has been bugging me on the myStarbucksIdea forum, I really wish they'd develop a way of combining ideas (or at least proposing that ideas are combined) because at the moment the world and his wife seem to be posting the same 'free wireless' idea. On mailing lists this is much much harder given that the (duplicate) email will have arrived in your inbox before it is identified as a similar topic. Recently I posted on IxDA looking for advice about Mac applications and eventually someone tracked down an old thread which helpfully allowed my new thread to gradually expire. I now realise I really ought to go out and check Slashdot and formulate more useful and researched posts before just hitting 'reply' to things I found interesting :-/ J. -Original Message- For #3... How do we force new users to search for answers before creating a duplicate thread on issues that has been addressed already? Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
About the search - and just everything else on IxDA.org site. There are a lot of place for improvement - but the entire thing has been built through individual volunteer initiative. If you have improvements, or would love to take on the task of wire-framing, designing, and implementing a new discussion list search functionality, I bet the powers that be would love the help. Send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and describe your ideas, skillz, and anything else. - W On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 4:40 AM, Alexander Livingstone < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > For #3... How do we force new users to search for answers before > > creating a duplicate thread on issues that has been addressed already? > > Making things hard seems a little mean! ;) > > What springs to mind for me is a (erk) tag cloud. In general I find > them an annoying waste of space, however I could see it being useful > for this 'initial search' purpose. > > I'd envisage a pane that can be sorted alphabetically, by date, > frequency, etc. and hidden by regulars if not required. That way its > two or three clicks to the information that you'd want, rather than > going to the hassle of writing a post. > > It'll give you an excuse to buy Jeffrey Friedl's 'Mastering Regular > Expressions' if nothing else! (The only programming-y book I've > touched that is actually quite fun to read as well as being good at > conveying its subject matter). > > Alex. > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > -- ~ will "Where you innovate, how you innovate, and what you innovate are design problems" - Will Evans | CrowdSprout tel +1.617.281.1281 | fax +1.617.507.6016 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
> For #3... How do we force new users to search for answers before > creating a duplicate thread on issues that has been addressed already? Making things hard seems a little mean! ;) What springs to mind for me is a (erk) tag cloud. In general I find them an annoying waste of space, however I could see it being useful for this 'initial search' purpose. I'd envisage a pane that can be sorted alphabetically, by date, frequency, etc. and hidden by regulars if not required. That way its two or three clicks to the information that you'd want, rather than going to the hassle of writing a post. It'll give you an excuse to buy Jeffrey Friedl's 'Mastering Regular Expressions' if nothing else! (The only programming-y book I've touched that is actually quite fun to read as well as being good at conveying its subject matter). Alex. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
Many of us suggested modetrators as a solution, but I was trying to move away from exactly that. Moderation requires a group of people to share the same goal and constantly watch the board for every activity. In my opinion, that puts too much power and responsibility on to few people's hands. It could be too easily abused/neglected. Next best idea IMO is letting everyone to moderate, which is what SlashCode does. Again, I like this alot but it's a bit too complicated for new users. Will, I like your idea of respecting new users instead of bashing them. However IMO, that kind of relationship is only possible on professional communities like IxDA. If you go to howardforums.com which is a cellphone hacking forum, you will notice that half of the messages are n00bs asking the same questions over and over and over again. This is beyond an issue of annoyance, rather this kind of behaviour renders the website useless and it must be suppressed in order to keep the website useful. I like Cindy's idea of doing the searching for them before allowing them to post. This will expose them to the available threads, and this might present them a solution more quicly than to post and wait. Hopefully this will deter them from dupe-posting. What do you guys think about my idea of "delaying the post"? It's a scheme where any post must be reconfirmed in a few hours before it is publicized. I thought this wasn't too cruel since they should come back to check the responses anyway. This is effective for both troll type 1 and type 3. By making them wait for a few hours, the possibility of quickly getting a solution via dupe-posting is eliminated. If they really want a solution fast, they will search. If they searched and couldn't find it, then the question will be posted. In any case, I appreciate the great discussion. ps, Jeff, I agree that not all of the behaviours I mentioned are "trolling", but I just used it to simplify the terminology. By trolling, I'm talking about inappropriate behaviours in forums. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
Here are a couple anti-trolling examples... 37signals deals with trolls on their blog by giving trollish comments a little troll cap. Essentially a social solution. http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives2/introducing_the_troll_cap.php Metafilter deals with trolls by allowing the community to flag trollish comments so the moderators can more easily keep the site in order. They regularly delete comments and entire threads that violate community norms. They also wield a banhammer on repeat offenders. http://mssv.net/wiki.cgi?Flag // jeff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=27634 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
n00bies by definition may not know what to search for, and education of n00bies is by definition is a repetitive function by people who know more than them, as they grow from "I know nothing" to "I know everything". I generally think solutions to this need to be integrated into the whole system. Though I haven't seen a good example of this. 1) trusted moderator/harvestors who cluster posts distilling them into FAQ's/wikis, correlating them with search terms/email contents...I say trusted as open wiki's tend to have the same spam/abusers as email., but suggestions to improve can be done through a similar process. 2) system parsing incoming emails to look for keywords and related to FAQ/Wiki. 3) an opt out, or 'elite' club that is only notified of novel interests Hope that helps. Troy Gardner http://www.troyworks.com/blog/ RIA, Flash and Workflow Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
one more thought on searching this list. the search on the IxDA site is pretty bad actually.. i was trying to use it today and it seemed like it was only searching message subjects. makes it hard to find previous threads that might relate to your question. On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Cindy Alvarez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > For situations where the "old answers" don't age (i.e. how do I do X in > HTML?), I wouldn't put the burden on the users - that's doomed to failure - > but why not incorporate it into the posting process automatically? > > - On the post page, put a "Do you want to search and see if someone's > already answered your question?" -- but off to the side > - Let people write their question out and click Continue > - Show the post preview AND automatically return the search results for > answers that may answer their questions > - If user clicks on one of the "old answers", it should probably open > in-page using AJAX or in a separate window > - If user goes ahead and posts anyways, fine. -- Matt Nish-Lapidus work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.bibliocommons.com -- personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
I woudn't consider the first or third types a troll. Trolling conveys social intention. I tend to think of trolls as those who deliberately post inflammatory rhetoric. These are social problem and the few times when they've come up on this list (whether discriminatory stereotypes, posting binges or drug-induced chakra-wielding flameouts) the initial solutions have been social--a simple warning. Sometimes it escalates to technolgical solutions such as moderating or banning but that's pretty extreme. // jeff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=27634 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
"3. n00bs who won't search for answers first" As a member of a community of practice, the last thing I would want to do is denigrate a person new to our profession or list by using an elitist pejorative best reserved [EMAIL PROTECTED] dorks on linux kernal lists. We should embrace new people to the list and point them to previous discussion threads on the topic. I have seen so many topics come up over and over again, and perhaps the best thing is to take a cue from old-timers here which is to engage them, point out old threads, and encourage participation. I've never seen DaveM shut down an ernest new poster to the list. There are some serious heavy weights here - and they have set the tone that we want to embrace and encourage new people to join into the discussions. Granted - this means every once in a while someone wants to spark the ol' "Let's define IxD/"D"esign/UIE again," and that can be annoying - but often times the discussion does yield positive fruit. Also - I will be the first to admit that I haven't always chosen the right path, and come across as snippy - and that was wrong... My 2 cents and a tequila shot. or 2. Hell, make it 3. On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Calvin Park 박상빈 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Whenever there's a forum, there are three kinds of trolls: > 1. automated spambots selling viagra > 2. abusers(page wideners, goatse, etc) > 3. n00bs who won't search for answers first > > #1 is solved by captchas > > #2 is solved by not allowing html tags and breaking down long words > > For #3... How do we force new users to search for answers before > creating a duplicate thread on issues that has been addressed already? > In many forums, new members are not allowed to post for x amount of > days. However, this may hinder a potentially useful input. > A method I thought of was letting new users post whatever they want, > but requiring them to come back in a few hours to comfirm the post. > This will deter lots of impulsive posts, but this too may hinder a > potentially useful input although it's less restrictive. > > The general idea behind the methods for reducing #3 is _making the > process of posting more complicated for new users_. This is operating > under the assumption that new users who will be useful to the > community will have the patience to deal with the extra steps, and > those who are impatient are useless to the community. It also assumes > that the old users will never turn into trolls, since we aren't > putting any checks on old users. > > Has anyone ever dealt with designing a forum that effectivly reduced > trolling? > I'm designing one for a growing community, and it's important that we > enhance signal-to-noise ratio while welcoming all new users. > So far, my favorite discussion system is Slashdot, but I'm afraid that > Slashdot is too complicated for new users, and also useless for a > small community that's unwilling to bother with moderation. > > I'd be happy to see good examples. > Thanks. > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > -- ~ will "Where you innovate, how you innovate, and what you innovate are design problems" - Will Evans | CrowdSprout tel +1.617.281.1281 | fax +1.617.507.6016 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
On Mar 26, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Calvin Park 박상빈 wrote: > Whenever there's a forum, there are three kinds of trolls: personally, i use billy goats. - - Jeffrey D. Gimzek | Senior User Experience Designer http://www.glassdoor.com Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Fighting trolls
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Calvin Park 박상빈 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > For #3... How do we force new users to search for answers before > creating a duplicate thread on issues that has been addressed already? Devil's advocate: Why? Isn't this another example of forcing users to adapt to the technology? > This is operating > under the assumption that new users who will be useful to the > community will have the patience to deal with the extra steps, Why is the assumption that users have to be useful to the community instead of the community serving the needs of the users? Now, obviously this is heavily dependent on the topic - but many times the "old answers" may not be relevant!For subjective questions, users will feel like their situation is unique (even if it really isn't); restaurants, travel, and technology go out of date. For situations where the "old answers" don't age (i.e. how do I do X in HTML?), I wouldn't put the burden on the users - that's doomed to failure - but why not incorporate it into the posting process automatically? - On the post page, put a "Do you want to search and see if someone's already answered your question?" -- but off to the side - Let people write their question out and click Continue - Show the post preview AND automatically return the search results for answers that may answer their questions - If user clicks on one of the "old answers", it should probably open in-page using AJAX or in a separate window - If user goes ahead and posts anyways, fine. I'd prototype something like that quickly and test it out - could be way off-base, but I think it has about as much teeth as you'd want to put into the process without annoying potential community contributors. It also continues to "police" older members as well. Cindy Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
