Re: [discuss] annoying
Christian Einfeldt wrote: [snip] If you're not trolling, of course. http://www.digitaltippingpoint.com/component/option,com_weblinks/catid,76/Itemid,4/ Well done, Christian. I spend some time supporting Mozilla products (Thunderbird and Firefox). I see the same 'entitlement mentality' there. No personal responsibility for learning the basics, no interest in understanding some of the 'whys,' just 'gimme what I want and I want it now.' It's a sad commentary on the current state of human behavior. :sigh: oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Culling duplicates in Calc
In my experience with spreadsheets, there are two ways to handle something like: 1. Sort the rows. This may or may not be an option for you with the way your data is arranged. You might have to concatenate the data from multiple cells to get this to work. 2. Use a filter. Data>Filter from the menu will get you to options for this. oldgnome Lars D. Noodén said the following: I'm looking for a way to cull duplicate rows from a pair of columns in Calc, leaving just a set of unique rows. e.g. AABB AAAA BBBB AABB AAAA becomes AABB AAAA BBBB Any suggestions on how to do this or where to look for ideas? -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents harm all Net-based business, write your MEP: http://wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep6/owa/p_meps2.repartition?ilg=EN - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[discuss] Hey Chad....
Chad - I misplaced the message from earlier today about greenzap or was it zapgreen...(and can't find your e-mail adress). Could you send me the link? Many thanks! oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] publisher
Lars D. Noodén said the following: Scribus does seem interesting, but I am curious as to how people ended up with MS-Publisher in the first place. The main closed source tools would be PageMaker, Quark, FrameMaker, or InDesign. MS Publisher was provided as an integral part of the MS Office Suite CD set on at least a couple of versions. I seem to recall it was supplied free (on a separate set of CD's) with my old copy of Office 97, but I can't be certain. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] OpenOffice.org Support on the Users List
Ric Hayman said the following: Diane Mackay wrote: Hi, I am writing to point out some of a recent users list thread and to open the discussion here. There has been a huge discussion ongoing for about three days on the users list, and I believe threads like this are detrimental to the value of support provided to the OpenOffice.org user: not because of the original requester's post, but because of some of the discriminating answers that were provided, and the length of the thread itself, which did not focus on actual help information for OOo users. http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=89593 I just went and read the whole thread - it was a little disappointing. Apart from the fact that most of the discussion, as Di suggests, should have taken place on another list (if it should have taken place at all), I think a number of the participants lost sight of the customer - who is after all the reason for that particular list. While I take GRS's point (and those who supported him), I think the damage is done not by the CONTENT of the point (which was essentially similar to Peter Kupfer's - try and tell us the version and the environment, perhaps contact the vendor first, download for free the latest stable release, etc.) but by it's tenor. Newbie users are ALWAYS going to ask what seem to be dumb questions - I do a lot of second level support for applications at work, and it's not just the newbies that 'get dumb' sometimes! Where a project like OOo is going to get bigger/better is to involve new users in the community - by being welcoming, friendly, supportive. Whatever the beef with PPP or Luxuriosity - take it up with them, not some poor sod for whom it was the first introduction to OOo (and COULD become a long and fruitful association with the appropriate responses early). I participated in the thread, and was perhaps a cause of it going on too long. I only occasionally post to either [users] or [discuss], since there are many others who are quicker to offer answers to the small number of issues on which I can be a help. I saw two elements of the discussion I think we would do well to understand and analyze. The first element can be characterized by a term I have used in past lives - "support fatigue." I have seen this in internal IT help desks and see it on occasion in the Mozilla support forums where I spend a good deal of my free time. This is a situation where many, if not all, of the regular participants and lurkers have a pretty good idea where to turn for help. They know the resources that are available and where to look for answers. These individuals also see a regular parade of "the same old" questions that, as each of them becomes more and more proficient in OOo, are more and more basic. After a while, a certain amount of frustration sets in with seeing the same questions day after day. Sometimes the innocent users suffer a bit of teasing at the hands of those to whom they have come for help. Depending on the initial posture of the original poster, such teasing can be come mean-spirited. It's not always necessarily unjustified, but should still be avoided. I believe this happens because the network of individuals has little in the way of recognition aside from supporting a cause we believe in - and we *all* believe in it, or we wouldn't be here. Save each other, there is no independent source confirming whether or not the support being offered is even adequate. To be honest, some are internally driven enough to provide this assistance and outside confirmation is neither sought nor necessary. However, I am convinced this "fatigue" can allow the group to spin off in wrong directions at times. From my experience, the only way to "fix" this situation is to allow the team to blow off steam on occasion. However, that is from my experience as an IT team leader and I could control the direction and size of the steam cloud. I am eager to hear others on the topic. The second element is related to the first. There are different ideas and concepts as to how, to whom and under what circumstances support ought to be provided. I think this was actually a very healthy part of the discussion. Diane is correct in stating that it should have taken place in [discuss] instead of [users], but the discussion itself seems to be necessary. However, the difficulty comes in again because we are solely a group of peers. There is no structure, process or procedure to which we can turn when we seem to be stuck on a concept. This is one of the less efficient facets of open source applications support via mail lists. Is it time to revisit the lack of support hierarchy? Had we a few designated individuals - both trusted by the group to know their stuff and have solid support credentials - also participating or even lurking, who could had stepped in to say "let's take this to [discuss]" earlier in the process, would that have helped? Diane
Re: [discuss] OpenOffice.org Support on the Users List
Ian Lynch said the following: On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 09:28 -0400, Daniel Carrera wrote: Steve Kopischke wrote: I believe this happens because the network of individuals has little in the way of recognition Can you think of any idea to improve the ammount of recognition volunteers get? They can become INGOT assessors. They even get a certificate :-) Any active community member who can operate OpenOffice.org competently and who has spent 100 hours on community development work qualifies for the Gold INGOT with distinction. So if you work on the users list and can provide the right evidence I can arrange your certification. You could then put this in your sig. Ian: Excellent idea. Do you have a URL? oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Support on the Users List
Diane Mackay said the following:
Cyrille Moureaux wrote:
[...]
I think on the other hand the user should not have the feeling s/he's
been
redirected from one place to the other without much gain each time
("Welcome
to the IRC channel, sorry there are mostly developers/builders here,
please
join and ask on [EMAIL PROTECTED]", "Welcome to [EMAIL PROTECTED], apparently you know
where
the zip you downloaded is, managed to unzip it and run setup, OOo has
not
taken over your desktop so sorry, we can't help you, please join and
ask on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]", "Welcome to [EMAIL PROTECTED], get ready for hundreds of email a
day, and
by the way, your problem with the Access feature missing in Base
seems quite
specific, please join and ask on [EMAIL PROTECTED]", and so on ;-)).
Anyway, just my thoughts,
And good thoughts they are! What's really bad about scenarios like
this, which
DO happen, is that the archives record them this way. Then when you
try to "do
the right thing" and google for answers to OOo questions, you end up
spending
much time running in circles, and maybe never finding your answer!
This too
presents a bad image for the quality of customer service provided by
OpenOffice.org. Depending upon the urgency of the user who is looking
for help,
this too could make folks turn away from the product.
OK.
Then how do we improve the existing support system? There are
indications that there are elements that need to be changed or improved.
Might we have to accept the possibility that the support system won't be
able to meet the needs of every user?
oldgnome
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Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Support on the Users List
Diane Mackay said the following on : See Daniel, here too suggests that the expectations may be too high. I can see after reading Steve's message again, that I drew my conclusion about my own expectations from both your's and Steve's responses... I think that I drew a fair conclusion, considering two posts and my own very real high expectations. Yes, I think Daniel and I were looking at the same coin from two different sides. I, too, have very high expectations. However, after a number of years providing customer support in quite a few areas, I learned that you have to draw realistic boundaries or you eventually end up trying to do everything for everyone. I like your suggestion that it is perhaps time to diagram some of the concepts. Your further suggestion that such a process be driven by some with help desk expertise is equally sound. Can you suggest an electronic, collaborative environment where such a diagramming dialogue can take place? oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Support on the Users List
Daniel Carrera said the following on : Steve Kopischke wrote: Can you suggest an electronic, collaborative environment where such a diagramming dialogue can take place? If it is useful, feel free to use http://oooauthors.org for that purpose. Daniel: Thanks. Diane: What are your thoughts? oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Support on the Users List
Diane Mackay said the following on : Steve Kopischke wrote: Diane: What are your thoughts? oldgnome Hi oldgnome (way cool name by the way!), Thanks. It comes from a time when I took 16 of my employees on a ropes course team-building exercise. I was 20+ years older than almost all of them and significantly shorter than most, even though I'm average height at 5'9". With my bald head, gray hair and gray beard, in the team picture I looked like a...well The issue tracker works as a good place to attach files for collaboration too but some folks aren't comfy with it. In my mind, using either the Issue Tracker or OOoAuthors is a learning process, so why not learn the OpenOffice.org tools? But, there is choice, which sometimes is cool, until you are standing in front of 5 flavors of bengay ointment... Times were easier when there was one! I guess I was looking for a brainstorming tool for diagramming purposes to uses with the folks with the help desk expertise you mentioned a few messages ago. I might just not be following, but can the Issue Tracker serve that purpose? I was hoping for something interactive, rather than asynchronous, but I think anything we do will help. I can send some pretty detailed instructions to run the Issue Tracker if anyone needs them. (They actually live in the FAQs that Peter pointed to earlier. I may also have another blurb that could help that I can dig off my hdd, but maybe I incorp'd that into the info posted in the FAQs. I can't remember.) Actually the Issue Tracker is a handier tool than OOoAuthors, because those interested can add themselves to the cc field, and then when updates occur on the issue report, they will be notified via email. Detailed instructions would be a big help. Feel free to send them to me anytime. The user-faq project is or was the support project, but they changed its name a while back. If you assign the issue to that project, we won't be pestering developers with the traffic either... I think that's what I would do... User-faq is a fairly quiet project so far. I think following your lead on a number of the housekeeping details is the right thing to do. I don't mean to imply *you* are the housekeeper, but you seem to know more than anyone else the right place for "stuff." I would be happy to take a documentation role, since that's one of my current strengths. I have an April 15 deadline for some work I have yet to begin (Yikes!) Can you guys run with this? I promise to pop in here and there, when I need a break from it, and I'll come back as soon as I'm done, I promise. I'm very sorry to do this, but it's pretty important stuff And I must do it. It seems the last few days or weeks have been insanely busy from all directions. I need to go quiet for a bit. Again I'm very sorry, but I promise to come back to it, especially if it's needed... I hope you will understand. No problem. Take care of your deadline. I'm *pretty sure* this issue will still be here after the weekend. :) Besides, I am traveling tomorrow and Friday is pretty busy for me, since I will be home for the first time in three weeks. If you use the issue tracker, feel free to put my name in the cc field. My OOo user name is mackmoon. If it's a hurdle to run, holler on the lists, and hopefully folks will help you drive the thing. I know some folks struggle with it, but it's pretty slick once you get used to it. Thanks. I think we have made good progress this week in getting the issue from the users list to where we can begin working it. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Concern
Martin Dickinson said the following on : Your product was discussed at my church last night and we were all informed that while it is an excellent product that is has a built-in tracking device that keeps up with all your web activities. Your comments please? That is false. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] crash
Adrian: I am sorry to hear you lost three hours of work. However, are you aware that the software you were using is BETA software? Under normal circumstances, BETA software should never be used in any kind of production environment. oldgnome adrian Greeman said the following on : I spent three hours working on an article in Writer this afternoon - and then it crashed for no apparent reason (the only fault i have being that I had not yet saved the document and it was still not labelled.) Anyway I got the error repot message which I filled in and then it said it would recover the document. But it did not. Nothing happened. 1000 words vanished and three hours work. Do I keep using it? NO way can I take the chance. And I am very disappointed because I want to. But I am not suffering that again. It was version 1..9.87 Regards Adrian - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Email Client
Mike: Have you tried taking your problem to the MozillaZine Thunderbird Support forum @ http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=39 ? I'm pretty sure the solution might be fairly quick and easy. oldgnome Mike Finley said the following on : To All, I am an avid user of the Open Office, not only for the fact that it is simple to use, but because I am not forced into excessive licensing fees and upgrade costs and items like that. What I have noticed with the Microsoft Office suite that annoys me is I prefer to use Mozilla Thunderbird as my email client, yet when I select that as my Email client under Internet Explorers Tools => Internet Options => Programs tab, I cannot email my text/spreadsheet files directly from the program itself. I am forced once again to select either Outlook Express or Outlook as my email client in order to do so. Which brings me to my email. Do you at anytime plan on offering a email client that integrates with the Open Office suite? It would be nice to see an email application that also has a tiered contacts list approach that would allow for normal people email addresses and then email addresses for companies for those of us who order online. Once these contacts are constructed, an email spam filter would automatically send anything not in a tiered contacts list to the trashcan and the user would then have the option to add them to one of their contacts list or continue to allow the filter to trash any unwanted email. Thank you for your time and energy and for providing those of us who cannot afford the Microsoft products with an equivalent option of superior quality. Mike Finley Durham, NC - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Base should be renamed
Arthur Buijs wrote the following: To write a document use Writer To do your calculations use Calc To present an idea use (Im)pres To manage your data use ... Um... "Mange?" No, that's not quite right, either oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] German File Dialog Labels?
How about that - I see the same thing. I haven't put 1.9.95 through its paces much yet since installing - just editing an existing file. Interesting. 'Trevor Farlow' wrote on 04/26/05 02:24: Has anyone else noticed German text labels at the bottom of file manipulation dialog boxes in English OOo 1.9.95? I find this in Windows XP but not in Ubuntu Linux (I think...I forgot to double check before coming back into Windows). By "file manipulation" I mean to include Open, Save As, Export, etc. I have not found any German in other dialog boxes - Options, Customize, for instance. Instead of "Automatic File Extension" I get "Automatische Dateinamenserweiterung" next to the checkbox below the file type dropdown menu, and so on for the rest of the checkboxes in any of the named dialogs. It does seem to be limited to checkbox labels, though. While I love my German friends and all, I'd rather my software 'speak' to me in English. ;-) Did I just get a bad download or does anyone find the same? Ciao, Trevor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Ideas for Open office
In OOo, it's called an XY chart. oldgnome 'Michael Posa.' wrote on 04/30/05 10:09: Dear Openoffice, I am studying engineering I would just like to suggest a very important feature (in my opinion) for the open office spreadsheet program - many engineers and scientists need to make graphs on two axes (it is called a scatter plot) usually X and Y whereas openoffice currently plots the values of one axes and makes the other axes just into labels. I think open office is a great package but this one feature really bugs me because it is very important and the fact that it is missing really greatly decrease the value of the open office spreadsheet program. This feature would be hugely appreciated by me and I'm sure by a LOT of other people. Best Regards, Michael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Open Source Software
Firefox, Thunderbird, OOo 'Caleb Marcus' wrote on 05/01/05 19:52: I just want to know what open source software people are using. I use Firefox, Thunderbird, GIMP, Audacity, Perl, and OpenOffice. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Suggestion for Cross File (Global) Search
I think that might be a better feature at the operating system level, rather than in an application suite - I'd rather be able to search across *all* files, not just OOo. For example, WinXP Pro found a phrase I just searched in a couple of ODT documents I recently created, using the Search feature within Windows Explorer (I *think* that's what it's still called). I can't vouch for Linux, but I imagine similar functionality might exist there, too. oldgnome 'Claude Needham' wrote on 05/03/05 14:47: It would be very handy to have a search feature that could work across many files. For example searching a folder of documents for any document containing a phrase. The motivation for the request comes from being a very prolific fiction writer. Sometimes I would need to extract something from the chapter dealing with the description of a landscape. Well, I don't necessarily remember the chapter or even the book it was in. Looking for the phrase "raging storm" might narrow it down. Since the files are stored in a compress format, I can not use standard text search third-party programs to accomplish. I was hoping in the new version of OpenOffice this would be include. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] QuickStart in 1.9.79
Yes. Try the latest beta and you will find the function has returned. oldgnome 'Caleb Marcus' wrote on 05/04/05 15:59: I like all the new features in 1.9.79, and can't wait for 2.0, but I miss being able to right click the quick-launch box and open a document in 1.1.4. Does anyone know about this functionality in 2.0? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Reason corporates won't touch OO.o
on 05/18/05 15:07 'Chad Smith' wrote: On 5/18/05, Maria Winslow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: for example: - 200 licenses for Office at a cost of $66,000 (approximate OEM cost) - 10 macros that will cost a total of $20,000 to transition - A necessary upgrade that will cost just slightly more to deploy OO.o vs. Office (internal deployment, let's say $5000 for added time to deploy) So the total savings is $41,000 if you transition to OO.o. This means that the cost of KEEPING THE STATUS QUO is $205 per seat. The question to then ask management is - is this worth it? Are we getting an extra $205 per seat in value by sticking with the status quo? You leave out the re-education process. Going from MS Office XP to MS Office 2003 does require a slight readjustment period (some icons look different, more buttons on the screen, a few menu choices may have moved) but not as much as it would to go from Office XP to OOo 2.0. This is a per seat fee, since every single person who uses the program is going to have to learn the new program. Let's say the difference in the amount of time it takes for people's productivity to return to normal when switching from MSO X to MSO X+1 compared to switching from MSO X to OOo X is 25 hours. Now, that's not the first 25 hours of using the program - that's 25 hours of total lost productivity for the life cycle of the office suite. Time wasted searching for - oh let's say the *WORD COUNT* or the *PAGE SETTINGS*. It may only take 5 minutes to walk someone through the process of finding these features, but that's 5 minutes *per* feature, and people rarely remember after less than 5 times of being told. So, that's 25 hours * the average pay of the office worker * the number of seats - so, in your scenario, that's 25 * 200 * the average hourly wage or $5,000x were x is the hourly wage. Even at $5.15 an hour (minimum wage in the US) that's $25,750. So your "cost" of maintaining the "Status Quo" is cut by more than half. 25 Hours? Per user? Do you have any idea how much time that really is? You also seem to be assuming there would be no support materials, no training classes, no internal support of any kind. True, some of those would inch the costs up some, but not a lot. Certainly nowhere near the equivalent of 25 hours per user. Not even the most technologically brain-dead user is going to lose 25 hours of productivity when transferring to a new application - particularly when you consider that the less-knowledgeable users are going to use less of the functionality of either application. The more knowledgeable and capable users are also more capable of working through the differences. I think you grossly underestimate most of the users and grossly overestimate the lost productivity. BTW, it's by no means accurate to call it maintaining the status quo, because there is an increase in functionality of the software to upgrade from MSO X to MSO X+1. But, according to your theory, productivity would drop slightly at first because of the changes. How much? No, I don't know either - but it pulls in that direction, too. So, the question to management is - is it worth it? Is it worth $170 per seat to switch to a *free* office system? One that doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the *cheaper* alternative? One that doesn't have *ANY* third party support (ie, macros, templates, hooks, readers, tools, viewers, etc.)? One that doesn't come with on-call professional support? One that doesn't offer 100% compatiblity with their clients or suppilers? I have worked help desks and managed help desks. 95% of the questions (some days it's 100%) that users have are about basic things - how do I find "x" in there? Macros, templates, etc. are more advanced than most of the questions that help desks get. Besides, OOo *does* have macros and templates. The others you mention are beyond the vast majority of the functionality that is going to get used - and that's the key. How much of the functionality gets *used*? OOo is no where near ready for corporations. Not ones that aren't in direct competition with Microsoft anyway. That's the only reason IBM, Sun, and Novell use OOo - they don't want to use Microsoft. As you can probably tell, I disagree completely. From my use of OOo over the past three years, it has come a long way toward being "ready for prime time." I think you are going to be surprised at the adoption rate over the next 12-18 months. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Reason corporates won't touch OO.o
on 05/18/05 16:18 'M. Fioretti' wrote: I think that you have no exact idea of how most big companies and big public administrations work. I'm *not* saying the list above does always make sense, but it *is* how many big organization decide. Private individuals and small businesses are an entirely different situation, of course. Ditto for single, largely autonomous departments or offices of a bigger organization. Actually, I have a very good idea how large companies work. I have held IT management postions in two Fortune 500 company and a privately held company that ranks right in the middle of that pack. Your arguments and points are just the reason I was questioning the math - poor assumptions will get us nowhere. Fast. Besides, until your timely post, the only topic *was* the math. OOo is no where near ready for corporations. Not ones that aren't in direct competition with Microsoft anyway. That's the only reason IBM, Sun, and Novell use OOo - they don't want to use Microsoft. Exactly. Sad but exact. I do agree that OO.o is ready for prime time, but only for somebody starting from scratch or has (at least in theory) non-profit goals (ie lawmakers). Not for corporations who have thousands of gigabytes worth of existing files to keep in use, and have not written in their mission statement to _not_ use the office suite of a competitor. I don't agree. I have seen organizations toss GroupWise and Lotus Notes out the door in favor of Microsoft Exchange in close to a hearbeat, in spite of Gigabytes of messages that got munged in the process because there was no clean way to migrate between the proprietary formats. Among those organizations is one of the Fortune 500 I worked for. The reason for the change? $ - not ease of use, features or anything else. If a company sees a fiscal advantage to switching to OOo, they'll go. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Reason corporates won't touch OO.o
on 05/20/05 14:09 'Rigel' wrote: Okay. I am going to set a particular record straight here. Chad. You're right, and you're wrong. Jonathon. You're right, and you're... Sort of wrong. Rigel: Thanks for setting the record straight. Jonathan, Chad, et al: Can we put this one to bed now. Please? oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] OT: Sunbird Calendar
I, too, want to challenge Mr Hines' contention. The best way to contact anyone about Mozilla products is through the MozillaZine forums at: forums.mozillazine.org oldgnome on 07/09/05 12:46 'Alexandro Colorado' wrote: Quoting Eric Hines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Does anyone know how to contact the folks at the Sunbird Calendar project? I had a thought on a capability that would improve the calendar's utility for investors, but I can't find anything more useful than a snail mail address for Mozilla itself. Unless I've missed something, it seems that Mozilla generally--and Sunbird particularly--have gone the way of Microsoft in terms of customer contact--they don't want any. This is an old bit of heartburn I've had with Mozilla for a long time, and one of the reasons I walked away from their Netscape all those years ago. Thanks Eric Hines -- He can compress the most words into the smallest ideas of any man I ever met. - Abraham Lincoln I seriously challenge that, specially since the Mozilla sites like Mozdev, Mozine and others have an intense communication between newcomers and developers. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Peter, and other volunteers, please stop duplicate messages, was: Greetings
on 07/23/05 14:12 'Chad Smith' wrote: Marco, [snip] I say all of this to say, you're constant outcry for "better email practices" is a waste. All it does is create the very traffic and wasted bandwidth that you so desperately wish to stop. That, and it annoys people. At least it annoys me. Chad, you're not alone in being annoyed. Would this be a good time to ask for shortened sig's? (In the interest of saving bandwidth, of course) oldgnome On 7/23/05, M. Fioretti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote [rant snipped] : -- Marco Fiorettimfioretti, at the server mclink.it Fedora Core 3 for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ Intellectual freedom cannot exist without political freedom; political freedom cannot exist without economic freedom; a free mind and a free market are corollaries.-- Ayn Rand, "For the New Intellectual" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Peter, and other volunteers, please stop duplicate messages, was: Greetings
on 07/23/05 14:33 'Ian Lynch' wrote: On Sat, 2005-07-23 at 15:12 -0400, Chad Smith wrote: At least it annoys me. I think you are missing the point. Its not disc space, but the sheer volume of mail to read and sort through on many lists. This is particulary so when the person posts is not subscribed and generates a thread they never read! Please end your campaign for control of other people's email, and stop this annoying ranting. Good manners and etiquette annoying? I didn't detect too much ranting, just a pretty reasonable request to try and reduce traffic. Ian - You may be missing the point. The original poster is asking that traffic on the list be shortened and copies to unsubscribed posters be eliminated. Chad got annoyed at that and considered the whiny post annoying and a rant. So did I. The original post had *nothing* to do with good manners and etiquette. It was a complaint against a commonly accepted practice in the OOo lists for dealing with unsubscribed list posters. It is a never-ending quest to find an effective way to communicate with the great masses of unsubscribed posters. I believe this topic gets raised approximately every 5.326 weeks, more or less, depending on the galactic position There is no need to beat the dead horse. Again. I believe that may have been Chad's primary point. I know it is mine. I have found one very effective way to deal with the message list traffic I don't want to read - I delete it. I don't complain that I can't make it go away. Personally off-topic messages on a message list is a fact of message list life. One either adapts or unsubscribes. Complaining about how it works is inane. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Peter, and other volunteers, please stop duplicate messages, was: Greetings
Marco: Have you begun following the periodic threads about this topic? Every few weeks (was my attempt at humor that far off the mark), it seems, we have the same discussion - how do we deal with the unsubscribed? There is a need to let the list know the unsubscribed has been messaged - so that the unsubscribed don't get the same message 99 times. Letting the list know is the polite thing, not ignoring the list. That the message has to be resent is itself the nature of things - many responders do not know how to check to see if the poster is subscribed or not. That is the essence of the problem you would like to go away, not those helping. You have subscribed to a message list. Is the concept new to you? I have been part of these in one form or another for nearly 15 years. A lot of stuff I don't need to deal with ends up in these lists. That's why I make judicious use of my delete key. It is rarely painful can can even be therapeutic. Try it instead of complaining that a message list works the way it does. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Peter, and other volunteers, please stop duplicate messages, was: Greetings
on 07/23/05 16:14 'M. Fioretti' wrote: On Sat, Jul 23, 2005 15:27:52 PM -0500, Steve Kopischke ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Marco: Have you begun following the periodic threads about this topic? Why, yes, for some years now, and I'm getting quite annoyed by the constant lack of good manners or (much more often) simple thoughtlessness. Especially because: 1) you got this backwards: There is a need to let the list know the unsubscribed has been messaged - so that the unsubscribed don't get the same message 99 times. meaning that answers should go to the list period, and unsubscribed users should be informed when they arrive... 2) ... and *I* personally explained how to do that 15 months ago, on the OpenOffice users list. That's why I'm still a bit pissed, can I? Right now I get a "servlet error" by the oo.org search engine, but as soon as you can, you might want to read the thread (started on april 17, 2004) titled "[users] new solution for unsubscribed users, was: Who is CPH? " The way it's explained there needs some refinement, but it would definitely work as it should. Mario: [Rant alert: Pedantry always brings out the worst in me. Those weak of constitution or easily stirred by vented annoyance and unbridled sarcasm might want to avoid this post.] Yes, Mario, I remember. I am sure many on the list do. How could we forget? You were just as annoying then as you have been for the past few hours on this *same* topic. 15 months later. The irony is palpable. My heartfelt recommendation is this: find another outlet for your energies or unsubscribe. *I* don't have the problem backwards - you seem unwilling to accept the solution the list community has arrived at. Yes, Mario, the *list community* ignored your explanation. While the unsubscribed users *are* informed when an answer arrives, it just so happens that message does not always get sent as the original reply. Personally, I don't even look to see if the original poster is subscribed. I don't remember how and it's not something I normally think of while I am typing a reply. I'm just trying to help when I post. So...shoot me. Better yet, Mario, get over it. It's the way message lists work. They happen to all be governed by a bit of anarchy (yes, I realize those are contradictory terms - it's meant to be a little bit of sarcastic humor). Just because the anarchy is not a flavor Ayn Rand would approve doesn't mean you are going to be allowed to get your undies in a bundle without a challenge or two. (Yes, there are those who actually read your pithy little signatures. Yeah, that's more sarcasm.) oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Peter, and other volunteers, please stop duplicate messages, was: Greetings
Marco: My apologies for getting your name wrong. Other than changing two "i's" for "c's," the rant stands as posted. Ian: As a group, I think we're getting wrapped around the axle backwards here. The politeness being displayed by the replies being sent to the unsubscribed simultaneously with informing the list that such a message has been sent is being viewed as a breach of etiquette and impolite. That smells suspiciously like Newspeak straight out of one of Orwell's best works. Too much like "no good deed goes unpunished." I maintain that the community has spoken on how to handle such communications. I'm willing to be wrong on this, but it has been discussed and discussed. I *do* remember the thread Marco references. I see how it is being handled. It's *working*. For me, the traffic in the OOo lists is a trickle of the 500 or so messages I wade through every day. It's the price I pay for having an active e-mail account. I acknowledge that some (most?) of the stuff coming through to me on various message lists is not pertinent to my interests. However - and I think this is where we need to take this thread - as a group, we should be less concerned about "What benefits me?" than "What questions can I answer?" or "Who can I help?" I further maintain that having to deal with uninteresting posts is part of the price we pay for OpenSource and message lists on that topic. For that matter, message lists have always had that kind of traffic. To expect anything else is to expect to read the Sunday Times (either one) without getting newsprint on your fingers. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Peter, and other volunteers, please stop duplicate messages, was: Greetings
on 07/23/05 17:49 'M. Fioretti' wrote: Isn't this translated to: "we who are too lazy and uneducated to behave ourselves and make online fora more useful will continue to make a mess of the whole place"? Is now a good time to remind you that you began this thread and that few have come to the defense of your arguments? The good efforts of those who choose to inform both the unsubscribed posters and the list of the communications they have undertaken - *those* *good* *and* *noble* *efforts* - are being described by you as unpolite because you can't figure out how to manage your own e-mail account? Now who's "too lazy and uneducated," hmm? Goodnight, Marco Sweet dreams, little prince. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Peter, and other volunteers, please stop duplicate messages, was: Greetings
on 07/24/05 12:07 'M. Fioretti' wrote: On Sun, Jul 24, 2005 12:36:31 PM -0400, Chad Smith ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: if *YOU MARCO* won't do it, why the hell should anyone else? As already said, I have no computer which I can leave online 24/7, and this is not going to change. Is this concept *too* technical for you? If the idea is good, is the fact I can't do it myself a reason to keep the lists in this mess? Now, moving again from your supreme technical skills to your human ones: who the hell do you are to tell anybody you never met in person that he can open his mouth only if he can *afford* a personal, 24/7 connectd, 5 nines reliability server and the related connection costs? Thanks for knowing my bank balance, job status, problems and fixed expenses so much better than me. You really have to grow up a lot before going alone among adults, kid. Marco Marco: While you have brought up a topic that may or may not ever see a resolution, you might want to consider cutting back on the espresso. You're bringing a lot of this vitriol on yourself - the poster asked a valid question and you responded with anger and insults. Your posts have been filled with such from the beginning of this thread. You are acting like a spoiled child when he doesn't get his way. It's all about others being wrong, being uninformed, being uneducated, and being insensitive. Your opinions seem to place you in the minority on this topic. You can't seem to find a solution within your own e-mail client to manage the small number of duplicate posts (yes, Marco, it is a small number) because others are trying to show some measure of politeness on the OOo lists to some who do not subscribe before posting or who do not follow the instructions provided earlier today. Your clearly elucidated solution sees to have fallen on deaf ears because those with the interest do not have the technology (that's you) and those with the technology (we haven't heard from them yet) do not have the interest. That tells me something about the likelihood of solution coming to fruition, even though (according to you) I am too ignorant and uneducated to understand the technology. This is my last post on this thread and this topic in future threads. I think the topic was long ago completely done to death. Let us leave it there. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Peter, and other volunteers, please stop duplicate messages, was: Greetings
Chad: on 07/24/05 14:20 'Chad Smith' wrote: [snip] The only drawback is that annoys *YOU*. And, I for one, am willing to live with that ineffectiveness. Priceless. Thank you. oldgnome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Mail on desktop will only open with OE: Thunderbird wont open
This is a common issue with Thunderbird. Messages saved as FILENAME.EML will not open in the Thunderbird e-mail client (it is not a browser) by double-clicking the file. You can, however, open such files from within Thunderbird via File>Open. For support with Thunderbird, please visit forums.mozillazine.org. SJK on 09/14/05 02:53 'A.G.Forman' wrote: Thunderbird is the default browser but it will not open mail saved as "XXX" on the desktop, at a later time. I have to use OE to open. Any suggestions please. Andrew Forman - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Beyond 2.0
on 09/20/05 10:04 'Randomthots' wrote: Chad Smith wrote: My answer is - who cares? Why does it matter if it is a Blog or an online newspaper? Why does it matter if an office suite is defined a certain way or not? What we need to decide is, not what some mythological architypical "OFFICE SUITE" should or should not contain - but what should OpenOffice.orgcontain. Exactly. It seems to me that these decisions should be based on more pragmatic arguments. Particularly, What have users of office suites come to expect? and What is do-able given the existing infrastructure and resources? I think *both* viewpoints ought to be considered if we are to continue to please existing OOo users and attract new users. The fact (opposed to the philosophy) is that OOo already *does* include an HTML editor - one that sucks. It needs to be fixed. Whether that fixing comes by rewriting the exisiting code, tweaking the existing code, or removing the exisitng code and adding a pre-existing outside source of code, like Nvu or something, is up for debate. But the question of whether or not an HTML editor should be included is moot. It should because it is. And because it's expected by the end users in a corporate environment. There is real productivity value in having these different components that have the same look-and-feel, the same nomenclature, similar menu layouts, etc. UI consistency makes learning to use the different components much easier. I'm not certain an HTML editor is *expected* by office suite users in a corporate environment. It might be used by a limited few, but I don't know if I would attribute "expected" to the functionality. I'm not saying philosophical stuff is bad - it's just getting really old. I honestly think this exact email, almost word for word (Rod's not mine) was posted like a year ago, and like six months ago, and like a year and a half ago. This endless defining of an ideal OFFICE SUITE is redundant and boring and doesn't change anything about the very real code of OpenOffice.org. -Chad Smith 3. Quit changing file associations for users with MSO installed! Whether or not it SHOULD be confusing is a moot point; the fact is that it IS confusing for a fair number of new users, and even worse, it's ALARMING to them and makes a poor first impression. Windows users are accustomed to having to worry about viruses, worms, trojans, spyware, adware, and all other sorts of nasties. Any program that does something totally unexpected to them is immediately VERY suspicious (and destined for the Recycle bin). I need to strongly disagree here. I think giving the users the option (which is what OOo does - not perfectly, but it does it) is the right approach. That some users *REFUSE* to read the instructions is not something we can solve. In my opinion a lot of the users who post in a panic that "OOo has broken MS Office" (usually in ALL CAPS and with way too many exclamation marks) need to switch to decaf. I think the point is that users need to read the instructions - I don't care if it is a VCR, fire extinguisher or software. On the other hand, we could do a better job in [users] with a standard (and gentle) template with the instructions for how to reassign the icons. There's a bit too much undue frustration that surfaces too often on that topic. 4. A full-frontal assault on the bibliography project. The current system is good for exactly one citation/bibliography style and totally worthless otherwise. Just my $0.02 worth (BTW, when did the "cent" symbol disappear from keyboards? Where did it used to be?) I think it was somewhere on the right-hand side of the keyboard, perhaps as a shifted "\" symbol - I don't remember exactly and my manual typewriter is too far back in that dark, scary closet right now. ;) SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] copernic and OO0
on 10/04/05 13:00 'Larry Gusaas' wrote: It is simple to add .sxw or .odt file support to Copernic. Go to Options/Advanced. Click Add and put in the file type you want listed. Simple to include any file type not listed by default. While that technique will add the SXW/ODT file support to Copernic, I do not think Copernic can open the files since they are compressed/zipped. Consequently, trying to search for a text string within the SXW/ODT files is not possible. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] openoffice available as an extension for firefox
on 10/06/05 17:32 'Daniel Kasak' wrote: Nagarjunam Kancharla wrote: I was just thinking, wouldn't it be great if each tool of openoffice (writer, impress, math, draw) are available individually as an extension of firefox and available as one of the tabs. Its like you open the writer tab, impress tab, draw tab etc. When the user clicks on the tab, all the toolbars change to match the tab selected. [snip] Call me crazy, but when I want to surf the web, I open Firefox. When I want to open a spreadsheet, I open oocalc2. I don't want to write emails from OpenOffice - I use Thunderbird for that. I don't compose music in The Gimp - I use Ardour for that. See the sense in this approach? Daniel, you're not crazy. You have posted some of the wisest comments I have seen in this list in a long time. About twenty years ago I was having lunch with a friend of mine. I mentioned I was trying to write an application against which I could play Cribbage (a card game). His question was "Why?" and his reasoning was twofold: it had already been done (numerous times) and it was a waste of my time since I had a family, a new job, etc. I would heartily encourage any developers to donate their time to either OOo or Mozilla, if they have cycles to spare. Both organizations could use the help, as good as their applications already are. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Suggestion
on 10/10/05 09:00 'Nicolas Mailhot' wrote: Le lundi 10 octobre 2005 à 14:19 +0100, Alexandro Colorado a écrit : You can always uncheck it... ROTFL. I hope you're not serious. Bad and dangerous defaults have no place in mature software. I think it was Sun which spent lots of $$$ in usability studies to make the Gnome people understand this. "you can always uncheck it" have never been a serious excuse. I hope *you're* not serious. The purpose of defaults is to establish a baseline of application behavior, a known quantity. Simply because you insist on the default value being different from the established programmatic value, it does not necessarily follow that others share your version of wisdom. Calling an "option" an "excuse" is just whining laziness masquerading as expertise. Change the value and move on. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Suggestion
on 10/10/05 11:27 'Nicolas Mailhot' wrote: Le lundi 10 octobre 2005 à 09:58 -0500, Steve Kopischke a écrit : Calling an "option" an "excuse" is just whining laziness masquerading as expertise. Change the value and move on. I stand by what I wrote. Making a behaviour optional is no excuse for not thinking through what the default behaviour should be. Unloading the thinking on the user is just developer laziness. Arguing about what the value should be is constructive. Declaring "Change the value and move on" OTOH deserves more dirty words than I am able to muster in English. You're not doing the project any service by reacting like this. I merely opined in the same vein. You were taking an extremely strong, vehement stance without offering any supporting data aside from your opinion. That you considered responding further with "dirty words" gives me a good indication of the essential logic of your position. Since it should be obvious that I subscribe to the list, you do not need to send me a personal copy of this dialogue. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Suggestion
on 10/10/05 12:41 'Nicolas Mailhot' wrote: I have explained why this default is a problem. Twice. Have you anything to say on the subject except trolling on the message tone ? You claim this is a problem, but you have offered no objective data to back it up, only your opinion. I found it easier to change the default value than the amount of energy you have already spent on this topic. Please point us to an independent (or even not so independent) study that backs your claim and you will win my support. Troll, indeed. Harrumph. ;) SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Google - no thanks
on 10/13/05 15:11 'Chad Smith' wrote: So you are saying that Google rapes people. Google kills people. Google pillages people's homes. You're out of your mind. It's a damn search engine. It doesn't even have a penis to rape with. On 10/13/05, Jonathon Blake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Chad wrote: Google does not do those things. That is very wishful thinking on your part. Chad - you are intentionally misreading Jonathon's posts just to try and get a rise out of him. If that is your intention, take it to e-mail. Jonathon - your contentions would be easier to acknowledge if you could provide more than veiled references to unnamed entities. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Google - no thanks
OK, Chad. Fine. Be pedantic. Allow *me* to recap. on 10/13/05 17:23 'Chad Smith' wrote: On 10/13/05, *Steve Kopischke* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: Chad - you are intentionally misreading Jonathon's posts just to try and get a rise out of him. If that is your intention, take it to e-mail. No, it's not an intitial misreading of johathan's post. Allow me to recap. Jonathon claimed: Google supplies surveillance data to a number of illegitimate regimes, who perpetuate rape, pillage, and death on the inhabitants of the territory who oppose those regimes. I replied: Google does not do those things. Some countries may, but Google doesn't. And just because Google cooperates with the local governments does not mean that they support or condone that government. He said: That is very wishful thinking on your part. (and he trimmed my post to just read "Google does not do those things" - which, as you can see, referred to the raping, piliaging, and murder) It was quite obvious to me that, with his "very wishful thinking" comment, Jonathon was not writing about Google raping, but supporting or condoning the activities. You're intentionally splitting hairs in a direction seemingly not intended by the writer, but exploited by you. I repiled: So you are saying that Google rapes people. Google kills people. Google pillages people's homes. You're out of your mind. It's a damn search engine. It doesn't even have a penis to rape with. --- I was directly repling to jonathon's insane claim that Google is a raping, piliaging murderer. And any moron who claims that, is obviously out of their damn mind. Jonathon never wrote that. Jonathon wrote that Google indirectly supported such activities by their surveillance support. There is a *huge* difference between the concepts. And, for the record, I am *using* email. What the hell do you think I'm using? You're using a mail *list*. You're dragging the rest of OOo [users] into your petty little spat. I find it unnecessary and distasteful. You can also find better words than the four-letter varieties you seem to have just discovered. You will find their use pales with time. SJK PS It is entirely unnecessary to copy one who receives the mail list. I really don't need your messages *twice*. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Request to unsusbscribe (or at least ignore) Chad
on 10/31/05 08:10 'mark' wrote: Brian Lunergan wrote: Trolls is trolls. Even if he isn't unsubbed, there's the std. answer from Usenet: the killfile. Indeed. My mail client has filters that function the same way and very well in this situation. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: On HTML mail and paying per byte, was: OOo Writer with Outlook?
on 11/02/05 08:57 'mark' wrote: Randomthots wrote: What *I* get annoyed at is the attitude that just because some people in the world pay for Internet by the byte, that it's somehow wrong in principle to *ever* use technology like html e-mail. What if I want to send a nicely formatted message -- complete with pictures of the kids -- to my sister in Washington? We both have fast, all-you-can-eat access, decent computers, and up-to-date technology. Hey, great way to spread viruses and worms! Go for it! Of course, unless I know the person sending me the email, and they tell me what the picture is, I won't even look at a graphic - most damn spams are HTML, and (unless you've got your mailtool set to deny), will d/l a picture, or a worm, from a Website To be blunt, I don't give a s**t what it looks like, what I care about is what you have to *say*. All style and no content is the definition of vapid and shallow. mark "all* my email is ascii plaintext" Yikes, mark - what got your undies in a bundle? Just because a rather Luddite approach to e-mail formatting is right for you, don't presume that it is right to everyone. I, too, prefer to be able to include a bit of HTML formatting in *some* e-mail messages. Sometimes, a bit of style can carry the content's intended meaning much more easily than a clumsy smiley. Also, a number of the e-mail newsletters I receive are formatted to resemble the Web pages that spawned them. A nice bit of brand bundling that actually makes the messages easier to read. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: On HTML mail and paying per byte, was: OOo Writer with Outlook?
on 11/02/05 09:29 'mark' wrote: Yikes, mark - what got your undies in a bundle? Just because a rather Luddite approach to e-mail formatting is right for you, don't presume that it is right to everyone. Luddite means against all technology, or most advances. I've been doing email for 15 years, and see ->no reason<- for HTML email. Further, you seem to ignore my main complaint... unless you didn't understand it. Look, HTML spammail frequently includes executables, or links to sites where, if you don't have it turned off, your mailtool will download, on the fly, a graphic (or whatever) from a site. This is a very common means of spreading worms and viruses. Oh, and "luddite"? I'm a Unix/Linux software developer, Unix/Linux sysadmin, and software configuration, build and release manager (when I'm working, not job hunting), and have been working in the field for more than two dozen years. Easy there. Exactly why my phrasing is "a rather Luddite approach." I'm not calling you a Luddite, I'm simply comparing your approach toward e-mail formatting to Luddism. Different things. I, too, prefer to be able to include a bit of HTML formatting in *some* e-mail messages. Sometimes, a bit of style can carry the content's I correspond with a lot of folks, and my wife, who's on a larger number of mailing lists, does a lot more, and neither of us feels any need for HTML email, and no one seems to not understand us, unless we haven't phrased something correctly. Seriously, have you had any trouble understanding any of my posts, where I've used what have been 'Net standards for 20+ years - the caps, the surrounded by asterisks, etc? (And I got tired of smileys ten years ago, so I went to the alternative ) You're missing my point. You can stick with plain ASCII if you want and you obviously intend to. However, leave the rest of us the option for *wanting* to communicate in HTML, without branding us heretics to the cause. And, no, I have no trouble understanding your posts. I can read in English just fine and you write it well. However, there are those in the world who wish a bit more than simple black text on a white background. I have been communicating online since the mid-1980's. I recall well the days of a CompuServe or ExecPC account running on a 300-baud modem. I still prefer today's speed and technology, both of which allow me to compose and read in more than just a monospaced font in black on white (or amber on black or green on black). intended meaning much more easily than a clumsy smiley. Also, a number of the e-mail newsletters I receive are formatted to resemble the Web pages that spawned them. A nice bit of brand bundling that actually That, I hate. Email is not a Website - you want the Website, go there! A far better answer is, for example, the emails I get from Truthout.org, or the way I send out story links to lists: A headline, a paragraph, so that the recipient can decide for themselves if they want to read more, and a link. They want the whole thing, they can go there, and see it in all it's Web-glory. I'm OK with *you* hating it. I'm *not* OK with you telling me what is and is not a good idea for me. I *LIKE* HTML messages. Why can't you allow me that simple pleasure? I've never sent you nor anyone else who asked an HTML message. Next you'll tell us that you have javascript, etc, enabled for your email Please. Just because I like HTML in e-mail messages doesn't make me a fool. Stop treating me as one. Next you'll tell us it's wasting electrons (Yes, that's a bit of a gentle, ironic jab.) makes the messages easier to read. Pardon? The only thing that I find makes messages easier to read is when someone knows how to format paragraphs (not a problem on this list), as opposed to four or five inches on my screen of run-on sentences. (And when I see that in a job description!) Bold, color, italics, serifs or not - these can all be used to bring clarity (and, admittedly, they can be used to reduce clarity, too - but we have been discussing the concept of HTML, not well-composed vs poorly-composed HTML - a different discussion entirely) to a message. Please don't completely eliminate the possibility that there can be value in appropriately using HTML in e-mail messages. Different strokes for different folks - please give us an indication that the concept holds at least some familiarity for you. I'm not trying to ruin your day by forcing you to use HTML in e-mail messages, but at least give me the option of using it if I want in my communications with others who also do not see it as demon's spawn. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Manual available for OpenOffice.org 2.0
on 11/04/05 07:52 'Johan Vromans' wrote: "G. Roderick Singleton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Legitimate authors do NOT need to spam mailing lists to generate sales. I think you are slightly overreacting. As far as I can see, Mary pointed us at a book that may be interesting for OOo people. She just happened to be the author. I have read Mr. Singleton's posts in these forums for a long time and have interacted with him upon occasion. I do not think he was overreacting. Had the original poster any history at all of helping out in these forums, I think he might have reacted differently, though I leave it to him to verify that or not - I would not presume to speak for him. I also happen to agree with his entire post in this thread. In conclusion, I see that you and maybe some others think that by abusing the OOo mailings lists for a personal profit is okay, I do not. I may be too optimistic, but I believe in people's good intentions first. If she had spammed 500 mailing lists with this, or had she posted this message for days in a row, I would tend to agree with you. There's a new book on OOo, and Mary pointed us at it. I see no problem with that. Why not ask Mary for a copy, and post a review? And do not forget that when you buy a book, there's _mutual_ benefit. The author gets (a tiny amount of) money. You get a book with valuable information. I do not think the list - nor particularly Mr. Singleton - needs to provide the author with validation. The author, however, ought to provide the list with some sort of validation before accosting the list with a blatant marketing attempt. Spam certainly does not require days of repetition to qualify. A single instance is sufficient. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: Revision History
on 11/12/05 10:35 'Randomthots' wrote: G. Roderick Singleton wrote: Hmm, does File > Versions not fill your requirements? I think it should do the job. This is what I meant about the Help being inaccurate. On OO2, Windows version, I have no "Versions" menu item under File. I have "Changes" under the Edit menu. Are these the same thing? I am also running OOo2 under Windows (XPPro). I have both File>Versions and Edit>Changes. That tells me they are different things. Ergo, Help is accurate, but your system is not showing all of the menu choices for some reason. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Re: a more complete office suite
I think it is high time to close this thread. There is significantly more childish taunting than real content at this point. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] To all - PLEASE TURN OFF YOUR RETURN RECEIPT REQUSTED!!!
on 11/20/05 12:56 'mark' wrote: Heh. Try the redhat list, where folks invoke an "out-of-office" message, which responds to *every* *single* *post*. But no, there's only two or three folks whose email wants the receipts, and I'm assuming that thay just don't understand what's happening, and I was just trying to make them aware of it. I once had a message filter for OOo lists that deleted out-of-office messages immediately to the dust bin. At one time, there were many. (Don't get me started on out-of-office messages. I am completely anti.) As for the return receipts, I believe it's more than two or three folks. I seem to get as many as 10 per week off of discuss and users. They are a completely unnecessary annoyance. I propose that those who use them on OOo lists be given a single warning followed by a lifetime ban for a second offense. On the other hand, we could *all* acknowledge the return receipt requests and add a follow-up message informing the sender of the nuisance value. I figure a few hundred of each might have the desired effect. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Support PDF.
Have you tried File>Export to PDF? on 12/14/05 06:34 'Zebri Shaari' wrote: Dear pros, Firstly i congratulate you on your success on openoffice 2.0. Many of my colleagues and i use this program which is equilavant to it's competitor, even better i may say. Could i suggest that i you also have the option to save a file in a PDF. format, which will surely put your organization above the rest. Or is this request an impossible task due to circumstances that i may have not foreseen. Keep up the excellent work guys Best of Regards, Zeb - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[discuss] Return Receipt Requests
I do not know anything about the mail list management software used for these lists. However, is there any way to strip Return Receipt Requests off before sending them off to the list members? There seems to be an increase lately in those. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Well-well-well...
Gee there's *another* e-mail address to add to my killfile. I may not agree with much of anything Chad/Rod post, but I am getting tired of the anti-Chad tirades. SJK on 12/18/05 18:29 'Roger Markus' wrote: Hmm... Chad and Rod pouring Microsoft propaganda into the list again! (See: "Norwegian article on school software licensing") Why are we not surprised? Chad - get a life and/or quit working for Microsoft. Rod - open your eyes and see the light of day! Microsoft is an illegal corporation that has caused massive damage to the computer industry. If they are not stopped, or at least held in check, then OpenOffice is doomed. Is that your goal? To see OpenOffice destroyed? You will likely huff and puff and profess your substantial contributions to OpenOffice - but in writing propaganda for Microsoft, your actions are clearly towards the destruction of OpenOffice. Please refrain from doing this... or maybe you can join a "Go Microsoft" list and write Microsoft propaganda that is well received by a sheep readership. RM - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] PIM program for OpenOffifice
Thunderbird is an e-mail program with a very weak address book. Sunbird is a pre-alpha attempt at a calendar/scheduler. Neither is a PIM. I have searched for a long time for a good, open source PIM and have come up empty. I have been using EssentialPIM Pro (it has a free version), but it is missing some features I used to like about Act! (I can't abide by a local application requiring MSQL loading on my system, even when I'm not using the application). Do you have any suggestions for an open source PIM? SJK on 12/29/05 11:32 'seelig' wrote: There are more opensource projecten that implements this well, think about mozilla thunderbird, sunbird and so on with kind regards Dino Seelig Eric Martin Wessels wrote: Hello. I have an idea that could really spice up Open Office even further. How about a PIM program, a good agenda (scheduler, calendar, diary etc), adressbook, tasklist (todo list) etc. Everything you would find in a good PIM. And I don't want to promote that other firm, you know, but they also have OneNote, maybe that may be a good thing to (or something like it). I must say, this version is really very good (great in fact). And this would enhance the suite even more. Eric Martin Wessels - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] PIM program for OpenOffifice
How exactly is the article related to the PIM question? on 12/29/05 15:10 'Mel Haun Sr' wrote: 3. Opinion: Microsoft Wins, Open Standards Lose CIO Peter Quinn's story tells us that if you go up against Microsoft, you can expect everything and the kitchen sink to be thrown at you. http://ct.enews.eweek.com/rd/cts?d=186-3012-2-79-266549-350520-0-0-0-1 - Original Message ----- From: "Steve Kopischke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [discuss] PIM program for OpenOffifice Thunderbird is an e-mail program with a very weak address book. Sunbird is a pre-alpha attempt at a calendar/scheduler. Neither is a PIM. I have searched for a long time for a good, open source PIM and have come up empty. I have been using EssentialPIM Pro (it has a free version), but it is missing some features I used to like about Act! (I can't abide by a local application requiring MSQL loading on my system, even when I'm not using the application). Do you have any suggestions for an open source PIM? SJK on 12/29/05 11:32 'seelig' wrote: There are more opensource projecten that implements this well, think about mozilla thunderbird, sunbird and so on with kind regards Dino Seelig Eric Martin Wessels wrote: Hello. I have an idea that could really spice up Open Office even further. How about a PIM program, a good agenda (scheduler, calendar, diary etc), adressbook, tasklist (todo list) etc. Everything you would find in a good PIM. And I don't want to promote that other firm, you know, but they also have OneNote, maybe that may be a good thing to (or something like it). I must say, this version is really very good (great in fact). And this would enhance the suite even more. Eric Martin Wessels - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] Upper case problem in OO Calc
Try clearing the Tools>Autocorrect>Options>Capitalize the first letter box. SJK on 12/29/05 16:43 'Tracey Ambrose' wrote: Hi, I've just discovered that I can't start a cell with a lower case letter, I am being forced to have upper case and this can not even be over come in formating, if there is a way to do it that I have missed please let me know, otherwise I would REALLY appreciate having the ability to choose my own case. Thanks Tracey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] ODT becomes ZIP on download in Windows XP Pro SP2
on 1/28/2006 13:18 'Ian Lynch' wrote: On Sat, 2006-01-28 at 11:13 -0800, John Boyle wrote: To All: The simplest cure is to use either Mozilla or Firefox and avoid Internet Explorer entirely!! But not that useful for promoting ODF in a world where the reality is that most computer users use IE. Its not so much about curing the problem for us but taking away any obstacles to the proliferation of ODF. It is very difficult to remove obstacles placed by Microsoft with IE, unless one evangelizes the use of alternatives. SJK - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
